$5.95In the USA

$5.95In the USA

No.44January2005

FEATURING THISALL-STAR CAST:

ORDWAY KUBERT • HASEN

ANDERSONTOTH • NAYDEL

ADLER • BUCKLERMACHLANTHOMAS

PLUS:INFANTINOSEKOWSKYMcFARLANE

GRANDENETTIMESKIN • SWAN

GONZALES • ANDRUPEDDY • HECK

REINMAN • COWANGIORDANO

BERG • AMASHGILBERT • KANE

BORING • THORNEFOX • NOVICK

ROBINSON • OKSNERBOLTINOFFSPRANGER

SIMON & KIRBYMcCOY • BRUNNER

PALAIS • PLATTBURESCH • BLUMMER

FURNESS • LAZARESCHELLY

HAMERLINCKSWAYZE • DUCA

SKEATESKURTZMAN • WOOD

& MORE!!

SPECIAL ISSUE ON THE

JUSTICESOCIETY,ALL-STAR

SQUADRON,& INFINITY,

INC.

PLUS:PLUS:PLUS:PLUS:

Art ©2005 DC Comics; Justice Society, All-Star Squadron& Infinity, Inc. TM & ©2005 DC Comics.

Alter EgoTM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues:$8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © theirrespective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM ofRoy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada.

FIRST PRINTING.

™

This issue is dedicated to the memories ofJoe Buresch, Rudy Palais,

& Kin Platt

Special Issue On The JSA,ALL-STAR SQUADRON,

& INFINITY, INC.

ContentsWriter/Editorial: ...With Liberty And Justice Society For All . . . . . . . . 3“A Chance To Spread My Wings” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4Artist/legend Joe Kubert speaks with Jim Amash about drawing “Hawkman” in the 1940s.

“Cartoonists Are So Unaware Of Who They Are!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11Irwin Hasen on illustrating “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” et al., in the Golden Age.

(Excerpts From A) Postcard from the Edge––Of California, That Is! . . 20Alex Toth tells us why he has nothing to say about the JSA.

A “Will” Of The Wisp! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21Still more art from that long-lost mid-1940s “Justice Society” story!

An “Atom” Age Artisan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22Arthur Adler on his short, sweet comics-writing career in the late 1940s.

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26A brief conversation with Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson.

Above: Along with this issue’s cover, Jerry Ordway was kind enough to send Ye Ed variousother pieces of art he drew for DC during the 1980s, including this display drawing done forDC’s marketing department to promote the landmark series Crisis on Infinite Earths. The illospotlights the Earth-Two Superman and Firebrand (of the All-Star Squadron), Obsidian andFury (of Infinity, Inc.), and Blue Beetle (of the 1980s Justice League International). What canwe say but—“Gorgeous!” [©2005 DC Comics.]

Vol. 3, No. 44 / January 2005Editor Roy Thomas

Associate EditorsBill SchellyJim Amash

Design & LayoutChristopher Day

Consulting EditorJohn Morrow

FCA EditorP.C. Hamerlinck

Comic Crypt EditorMichael T. Gilbert

Editors EmeritusJerry Bails (founder)Ronn Foss, Biljo White,Mike Friedrich

Production AssistantEric Nolen-Weathington

Cover ArtistJerry Ordway

Cover ColoristTom Ziuko

And Special Thanks to:Arthur AdlerHeidi AmashMurphy & HelenAndersonBob BaileyMike W. BarrJohn BensonBill Black Dominic BongoJerry K. BoydMark CannonRich BucklerMike BurkeyBob CherryShaun ClancyGerry ConwayDale CrainFred DeBoomCraig DelichAl DellingesMrs. Pat DonathMrs. Al DucaMichael DunneMark EvanierJennie-Lynn FalkShane FoleyEd FurnessJanet GilbertRon GoulartDavid HajduGeorge HagenauerJennifer T.HamerlinckR.C. HarveyIrwin HasenDave HerringSteve Herring

Tom HorvitzAl JaffeeJoe KubertHenry J. KujawaGerald LazareMike & EveMachlanDan MakaraTodd McFarlaneBrian K. MorrisWill MurrayJerry Ordway & FamilyFred PattenJoe PetrilakRobert PincombeCharlie RobertsEthan RobertsStephan RoweGreg SadowskiMark ShainblumRick ShurginJoe SimonSteve SkeatesRobin SnyderMarc SvenssonMarc SwayzeJoel ThingvallDann ThomasAlex TothDr. Michael J.VassalloDelmo Walters, Jr.Tom WatkinsLen WeinJohn WilcoxTom Wimbish

[Contents continued on next page.]

• Sensational brand-new full-color Sandman cover by CREIG FLESSEL!• The Two Greatest Artists of the Gas-Mask SANDMAN! Fascinating interview with comicspioneer CREIG FLESSEL, conducted by JIM AMASH—plus an in-depth study of BERT CHRISTMAN, the original artist (and probable creator) of The Sandman, by DAVE ARMSTRONG—with tons of rare art and vintage photos!• Scarce and never-before-seen artwork by JACK COLE, JOE SHUSTER, FREDGUARDINEER, CHAD GROTHKOPF, BILL ELY, GILL FOX, OGDEN WHITNEY, et al.!• Special Bonus! Author MICHAEL CHABON talks with ROY THOMAS about his GoldenAge research for his Pulitzer Prize-winning novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier andClay, with art by GIL KANE,WILL EISNER, JACK KIRBY, DICK AYERS, & MART NODELL!• Tributes to Golden Age artists IRV NOVICK & HARRY LAMPERT!• Plus—FCA with MARC SWAYZE, C.C. BECK, & OTTO BINDER’s lost “Jon Jarl” story—MICHAEL T. GILBERT on BERNIE WRIGHTSON & other young pros at Warren, circa1970—BILL SCHELLY on comic fandom—ALEX TOTH on anything he feels like talkingabout—& MORE!!

2 Title

“I Jumped At The Opportunity!”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35Rich Buckler talks to collaborator Roy Thomas about the All-Star Squadron.

“You Really Put Me Through My Paces!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43Jerry Ordway on working with Mike Machlan & Roy Thomas on All-Star Squadron.

From The Centurions To Infinity, Inc. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52Roy Thomas’ original 1982 proposal for the feature that became Infinity, Inc.

Tributes to Joe Buresch, Kin Platt, & Rudy Palais . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 59Comic Crypt: “I Like Ike!” Part Two . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65Michael T. Gilbert shows comic book artists saluting President Eisenhower in 1954.

Tales Calculated To Drive You…Odd! Part Two . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71Bill Schelly completes his interview with 1960s parodists Steve & Dave Herring.

re: [comments, correspondence, & corrections] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 77FCA (Fawcett Collector of America) #103. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 81P.C. Hamerlinck presents Al Duca, Steve Skeates, Marc Swayze—& Louis LeBone!

About Our Cover: In 1983 Jerry Ordway was in the process of seguing from penciling All-StarSquadron to inking (or so he intended) the upcoming title Infinity, Inc. DC asked him to draw a two-page spread for its summer publication The DC Sampler, which was to be distributed freeas a promotion piece—so Jerry produced this powerful panorama symbolizing events in All-StarSquadron #26 and that mag’s second Annual, which would guest-star the new heroes of Infinity,Inc. Ever since, two or three years ago, Jerry sent Alter Ego’s editor (and his 1983 collaborator)Roy Thomas a photocopy of that illustration, it was a foregone conclusion that it would become a wraparound cover of A/E! And now it has! [©2005 DC Comics.]

Edited by ROY THOMASSUBSCRIBE NOW! Twelve Issues in the US: $60 Standard, $96 First Class (Canada: $120, Elsewhere: $132 Surface, $180 Airmail).

NOTE: IF YOU PREFER A SIX-ISSUE SUB, JUST CUT THE PRICE IN HALF!

TwoMorrows. Bringing New Life To Comics Fandom.TwoMorrows • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA • 919-449-0344 • FAX: 919-449-0327 • E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com • www.twomorrows.com

#45THE SANDMAN COMETH!Special Issue on Golden Age Artists CREIG FLESSEL & BERT CHRISTMAN

—and the Earliest Glory Days of DC Comics!

™

Art ©

2005 Creig Flessel; Sandm

an TM & © 2005 D

C Comics

contents[cont’d]

COMING IN FEBRUARYCOMING IN FEBRUARY

e’re starting the New Year offwith a few changes—whichsomehow seems the right time forthem. And we’re not talking about

this issue’s dedication largely to a single theme,that of the Golden Age Justice Society and itslater spin-offs, the All-Star Squadron andInfinity, Inc., both conceptualized by Ye Editorin the 1980s.

First off, although Alter Ego did have oneprevious wraparound cover (on Vol. 3, #5), youmay have noticed that this issue is different.Namely, you don’t have to turn it upside downto read half of it. For, as of this month, we are,with some reluctance, abandoning the conceptof “flip” covers and sections, probably forgood. Starting with #45, there’ll be just one A/Ecover to ogle… a situation which has both itsup side and its down side.

The “flip” nature of A/E was a holdoverfrom the late ’90s, when A/E itself was merely a16- to 40-page addendum to Jon B. Cooke’soriginal Comic Book Artist. It was Jon whosuggested the “flip” bit, printing A/E upsidedown to the main body of CBA. With a bit ofarm-twisting, I persuaded amiable publisherJohn Morrow to continue the “flip” concept,originally because I intended to devote half ofeach issue of A/E to the Golden Age, and halfto the Silver. When that unwieldy plan fell by the wayside after an issue ortwo of this third volume, I kept the two-cover look because it freed me touse at least one cover each month which didn’t have to be overtly“commercial.” We figured, for instance, that Dave Cockrum’s X-Men illowould be more likely to make retailers order copies of A/E #24 than theequally stand-out Mort Meskin drawing of Vigilante on that issue’s flipside. This was in no way an aesthetic judgment—for every reader whodecried the double-cover thing , there was another one who loved it—butthat was John’s and my own imperfect response to what we deem themarketplace to be.

But it’s just proven too time-consuming and, in the end, expensive tofeature two covers every month. It’s not that sales of Alter Ego aredeclining—but they’ve stayed relatively flat since the aftermath of 9-11-01,and the economic realities finally caught up with us. Besides, John has thistheory—and who am I to say he’s wrong, since he and Eric Nolen-Weathington hawk back issues of A/E at numerous comicons every

year—that sometimes the “flip” covers confusedbrowsers, who couldn’t recall if they’d alreadypurchased an issue earlier: “Hmmm… the DaveStevens Sheena cover on #21 looks familiar… butnot the Irwin Hasen JSA re-creation on the otherside. Do I have this issue at home, or not?”

So, for the foreseeable future, there’ll be justone cover… and we’ll have to go for the strongestimage we can find that fits that month’s contents.

The other minor change starting with this issueis that it’s eight pages thinner than editions since#15. Sure, we’d like to slide by withoutmentioning this—but we figure A/E’s readers cancount. We also figure that most of them willconsider 100 pages (counting covers) to be anadequate bargain at $5.95—or $1 less, if they havea subscription. Actually, 100 pages was the pagecount for issues #2-14, and the 8-page increase wasmeant to be temporary. So much material hascome streaming in from all sides, however, that Iclung to the slightly greater length for three years,and John indulged me. But the time has finallycome when we either had to increase the coverprice, or drop a measly half-signature, and thelatter seemed the preferable route. We hope youagree, and will continue to feel—as many of youhave said you do—that Alter Ego is one of thebest and most unique comics-related magazines inthe market.

Other than that, we can only repeat what we’ve mentioned once ortwice before: if you want to make certain that A/E continues its monthlyschedule, honoring the Golden and Silver and even Bronze Age creators ofheroic comics, there are two things you can do to help:

(1) Buy every issue—not just one that emphasizes DC, or Marvel, orsome favored artist or writer or subject. For A/E to appear monthly, weneed to have a certain base sale each month, not just when some relatively“hot” topic or creator is covered. Besides, I’ll be bluntly honest about it—if a comics fan can’t find $6 worth of value in each and every A/E, I don’tthink he or she has much real interest in the history of the field. What’sthe use of only reading about creators and creations you already knowyou like?

(2) Please tell other folks about Alter Ego. It’s kinda depressing eachmonth to find out that some dyed-in-the-wool fan of the Golden andSilver Ages hasn’t even been aware of Alter Ego’s first 40-plus issues.One comics convention organizer only saw the mag for the first time asthis issue was in preparation—and instantly bought an ad. It goes withoutsaying that selling an extra ad or two helps assure that A/E will either bein your mailbox, or on the racks or under the counter at your friendlyneighborhood comics shop, each and every month.

Okay, end of hard-sell. Don’t worry—Alter Ego is definitely not on itslast legs—far from it! In fact, it would take only a relatively few additionalcopies sold each month to make certain that it continues to come yourway for years to come. We don’t want in any way to denigrate those ofyou who support it by buying most issues, or even just the occasionalone—but if you can see your way clear to do a bit more, we’ll all benefit!

Bestest,Write to: Robin Snyder, 3745 Canterbury Lane #81,Bellingham, WA 98225-1186

Monthly! The Original First-Person History–published by Robin Snyder

3 Title

...With Liberty And Justice Society For All!writer/editorial

WW

Jerry Ordway’s Newsboy Legion/Guardian pin-up from All-Star Squadron Annual #1 (1982).Repro’d from a photocopy of the original art,

courtesy of J.O. [©2004 DC�Comics.]

NTERVIEWER’S INTRO: While “Hawkman” wasn’t the first feature Joe Kubert drewin the Golden Age of Comics, his stint on that character is his most memorable of thetime period. Hawkman was also a leading hero in “The Justice Society of America”

in All-Star Comics, and was popular enough to star on every second cover of FlashComics. Hawkman went through a few changes in the late 1940s, and here now is Joe totell us about those changes and what it was like to draw the Winged Wonder, under thetutelage of two editorial legends—first Shelly Mayer, and later Julius Schwartz.—Jim.

JIM AMASH: When Shelly Mayergave you a “Wildcat” story while“Hawkman” was your regularassignment, would he tell you why?

JOE KUBERT: I was very young at thetime, and had complete trust in the factthat Shelly felt that I could handle anyjobs that he gave me. I looked forwardto doing them. There was nothingspecial about drawing “Wildcat” or anyof the other features. Even when I wasdoing “Hawkman,” the character itselfwas really meaningless to me,

except that it gave me an opportunity to draw comic books and anoccasional cover.

Whenever I brought in a job (which I did on an erratic schedule,because I was going to school at the time and was terrible withdeadlines), Shelly would always have another job waiting for me, eventhough I didn’t quite meet the deadlines that he set.

JA: What do you think Shelly saw in you?

KUBERT: Probably the same thing he saw in guys like CarmineInfantino and Alex Toth: we were young kids, and Shelly was anincredibly sensitive person who recognized in others those things thathe felt himself. He recognized in me and the other guys a love for whatwe wanted to do. We expressed that love with the effort that we putinto the work that we did. Sure, we were doing lousy, terrible stuff, buthe saw potential in the fact that we put every effort into it. Since he feltthe same way about the work, he encouraged us. That was somethingfor which we were all grateful.

JA: Irwin Hasen told me that Shelly would sometimes throw thepages up in the air, and things like that.

“A Chance To Spread My Wings”Artist & Legend JOE KUBERT Talks About Drawing

“Hawkman” In The 1940sInterview Conducted by Jim Amash Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

II

Joe Kubert graciously autographing a comic at the All Time Classic New York ComicBook Convention at White Plains, NY, in 2000—flanked by “Hawkman” splashes he’ddone for Flash Comics more than a half century earlier! At left is his first, from Flash#62 (Feb. 1945)—above, the one for the final issue (#104, Feb. 1949). Of course, evenearlier in 1944, he’d drawn the “Dr. Fate” chapter in All-Star Comics #21, and hisvery first “Hawkman” story in The Big All-American Comic Book. The former wasreprinted in All Star Comics Archives, Vol. 5, the latter in the just-published DC

Comics Rarities Archives, Vol. 1. Thanks to Joe Petrilak for the photo—and to Kubert-fan Al Dellinges for the two Flash Comics pages. Incidentally, Al pointed out yearsago that an under-20 and probably nervous Joe Kubert left a letter out of the hero’s

partly-obscured logo! [Hawkman art ©2005 DC Comics.]

The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part one

KUBERT: I was there once when thathappened. That was because Shelly andIrwin were such good friends. Shelly wasa little bit of a nut, anyhow. He was a niceguy, a wonderful guy, but he could dosome crazy things.

JA: Did he ever throw your pages up inthe air or stomp on them?

KUBERT: No, because I would havethrown him right out the window. I wasn’tthe sort of person who’d appreciate thatkind of treatment, so Shelly never did thatsort of thing with me.

JA: Alex Toth told me Shelly wouldalways encourage him to write and letter his stories, as well. Did heencourage you to do the same thing?

KUBERT: Definitely, and I lettered most of my stuff at the beginning. Igot lettering lessons from Sol Harrison, who was in the productiondepartment at that time, and later became the president and publisher ofDC.

Shelly felt that it was important for a guy getting into the business toknow as much about it as he possibly could. He even encouraged us togo down to the engravers (which was just across the street) to see whatthey did with our work, so that we’d have a better sense of what wouldhappen before the stuff was published. There were incredible changesbetween what we’d see on the originals and what we’d eventually see inprint. The kind of printing that was being used at the time involvedmetal plates that had to be etched with acids. The colors were basic, andthe registration was so far off that it was ridiculous. It was important toknow what the work was going to look like when it was printed, and tounderstand the problems and vicissitudes that the guys who worked onour stuff went through, so that we would have a fighting chance to makeour work legible.

JA: People like Gardner Fox, John Broome, and Robert Kanigherwere writing your stories. Did you have a favorite writer?

KUBERT: No, it didn’t make any difference at all. I had no idea who thehell the writer was.I’d get the script intyped form, and itwas years before Iactually met any ofthe writers. Wewould only meet ifwe happened tocome up to theoffice at the sametime. Other thanthat, most of theartists never evenmet the writers.

The writing

was the editor’s bailiwick, and what was given to the artist was the resultof the efforts between the editor and the writer. Shelly never reallyencouraged us to write; we had enough trouble learning how to draw.[laughs]

JA: When you did a story for him, you wouldn’t letter or ink until thepencils were approved, right?

KUBERT: Right. First we’d do full pencils, and we’d show them toShelly. Shelly would then go through the script and pencils, and tell uswhere he felt corrections should be made. Then we would letter and ink.Shelly requested changes very infrequently, which was really great.There were scheduling deadlines to be met, so instead of haunting uswith changes on stuff that was already done, Shelly was more likely totell us to watch out for those mistakes on the next jobs we would do.

What sticks out in my mind was his comment aboutdrawing kids: you don’t draw a kid with the sameexpressions as an adult. A kid is a kid, and he looks likea kid. The proportions are different, the looks aredifferent, and the expressions are different. He pushedthat across to me so that the characters I’d draw wouldbe as credible as possible.

JA: Did he encourage you to build reference andswipe files, or to study certain artists?

All-American Comics editor Sheldon Mayer seems (thanks to our cleverjuxtaposition) to be looking approvingly at the splash page of the

“Wildcat” story Joe drew for Sensation Comics #66 (June 1947). Repro’dfrom a black-&-white Australian reprint comic, with thanks to Shane

Foley. The pic of Shelly M. is a detail from a 1942 photo printed in WonderWoman #2. [©2005 DC Comics.]

From almost the beginning of FlashComics, Hawkman tended to be featuredon half its covers. Here’s Kubert’s thirdcover—for #67 (Oct.-Nov. 1945), duringa period when the comic dropped to

bimonthly status for a year, and the All-American group had apparently split offfrom National/DC and adopted its ownsimilar logo. Thanks to Al Dellinges.

[©2005 DC Comics.]

“A Chance To Spread My Wings” 5

KUBERT: Not to studycertain artists, but to havereference files, which werecritical. It’s still critical today;every artist I know—including me—uses areference file. Now, ofcourse, we resort to thecomputer, which has every-thing on any kind of subjectat a moment’s notice. Butbefore that, we had to clipout the stuff and categorize it,so that when we needed aparticular subject—a car, ananimal, whatever it mightbe—we could turn to ourreference file and use it.

JA: On the Hawkmancovers you did for FlashComics, was there aseparate conference whenyou’d show cover roughs toShelly? How did that work?

KUBERT: Usually he wouldsuggest a particular scene thattook place in the story, andjust tell me to drawsomething to take-off on that.Of course, I had to incor-porate the title of the bookand any blurbs that might accompany it. I don’t remember any realconferences, though. Once Shelly approved the initial penciled idea, itwas up to me to finish it. I don’t recall him ever having me change oralter any of the covers I brought in. I don’t think I submitted my owncover ideas, but I don’t think that I went directly with what Shellysuggested, either. We would discuss it, but then the final decision wouldunquestionably be Shelly’s. I think those were probably the first covers Iever did.

JA: It sounds to me as if the covers were drawn after the stories weredone.

KUBERT: I don’t recall exactly, Jim, but I believe they were.

JA: That’s interesting, because a lot of companies did their coversbefore the stories.

KUBERT: That’s right. I remember times when Kanigher would jumpoff from a cover idea and go write a story.

JA: Did you feel as if Shelly was showing his respect for you by lettingyou do Hawkman covers for Flash Comics?

KUBERT: I’m not sure, but I doubt if that’s true. I don’t know whyShelly gave me the covers. Maybe he was giving me a chance to spreadmy wings a bit. Maybe it was because there was a deadline, and hecouldn’t get the guy who was supposed to do the cover. Chances are thatI did the covers because I was the regular feature artist.

I tried to make a special effort when I did them. I realized theirimportance: they were on the outside of the magazine rather than theinside, and when they were displayed in a store or exhibited anyplace,that’s what you would see. I was impressed by that, and I tried my bestwhen I did those covers. I don’t really remember if I got a higher ratefor the cover art, but I don’t think I did.

JA: When you started towork on “Hawkman,” howfamiliar were you with thecharacter?

KUBERT: Not at all. I wasintroduced to the characterwhen I went up to the All-American offices at 225Lafayette Street and theyasked me to draw him. I mayhave been aware of thecharacter in a passing manner,but it was never somethingthat stuck in my mind.

Shelly Moldoff was doingthe strip before I did, and hehad patterned his style afterHal Foster or AlexRaymond. I was not evenasked to follow his style;Shelly Mayer just gave somebooks to me and said, “Here,draw it.”

JA: Don’t you think thatHawkman visuallydescended from thesequence in Alex Raymond’sFlash Gordon Sunday stripsin which Flash fights theHawkmen of Mongo?

KUBERT: Well, it seems reasonable that Hawkman was a take-off fromthose characters, but I thought it was a complete departure from that. Ivividly remember the Flash Gordon sequence. I loved that strip; Iremember getting the Big Little Books and poring over those things. ButI never related one to the other.

JA: When you went into Shelly’s office, did you just walk in?

KUBERT: Well, I’m sure there was a receptionist outside, and Iremember that at All-American, the offices were separated by glasswalls. They were not partitioned; they were enclosed offices. I would tellthe receptionist I was there, and if I remember correctly, I was usuallyushered right in; there was no waiting or anything. That was true of allof us. It’s not as if there was such an onrush of people trying to get inthat there was a waiting line.

During the years I was drawing “Hawkman,” I would drive into thecity, and I was able to park downstairs and leave one of my family sittingin the car, because it didn’t take me that long to run up and down andtake care of everything.

JA: You were a young guy at the time. What did your parents thinkabout all this?

KUBERT: My parents were born in Europe, and the idea of anybodybeing able to make a livelihood by drawing these little crazy pictureswas a little bit beyond them; they couldn’t believe it. I drew pictures allthe time as a kid—my father was a butcher, and I would draw on thepaper bags—and they couldn’t imagine that what I was doing couldeventually generate an income.

I have four sisters, and before any of us married, moved out of thehouse, or took on our own personal responsibilities, all the money thatwas being made went to the Treasurer: my mother. When anybodyneeded any money, they would come to the Treasurer. It was interesting

Joe almost certainly drew this splash for Flash Comics #67 months before he did its cover.How can we tell? As covered on the next page (and in The All-Star Companion, Vol. 1), thewings on Hawkman’s mask are the clue, Sherlock. They’re much bigger and wider-flaring

on the cover than on this splash, where they still more closely resemble the 1940-44version by artist Sheldon “Shelly” Moldoff. Thanks to Al Dellinges. [©2005 DC Comics.]

6 Joe Kubert Talks About Drawing “Hawkman” In The 1940s

to the Treasurer that I was bringing in perhaps more than my father wasmaking as a butcher. They encouraged me to draw before that, too, eventhough they never dreamed that I’d be able to make a living at it.

I don’t think they were really aware that I was succeeding, but theywere pleased that I was able to make a living and bring some money intothe house. In terms of my accomplishment as an artist, I think they werealways proud that I could draw.

JA: When did you start working in a studio instead of at home?

KUBERT: I lived at home until I joined the Army in 1950, but in the’40s I had this studio up at Park Avenue. I know that sounds great, but itwas this little, old, skinny building among all the beautiful buildings. Ithad a little elevator, and if you crowded two people into it, youweren’t sure you were going to make it upstairs. [laughter]Photographer Brad Smith rented the place, and we sublet aroom.

JA: Although you drew “Hawkman”chapters and one “Doctor Fate” forthe Justice Society stories in All-Star, you never drew the wholeteam, right?

KUBERT: Right, but it didn’tmake a particle of difference to me.I was just interested in thenext story I might begetting, and in trying todo the best job Icould.

JA: Did DC supplyyour paper?

KUBERT: Yes. Thatwas one of the bigbenefits of working for DC:not having to go out andbuy paper—which wasexpensive at thetime—and getting thequality of paper theother guys were using,which you can’t evenbuy anymore.

JA: In those days, did youtry to get your original art back?

KUBERT: No, and I think that was true of99 and 9/10 % of the people working backthen. The artwork was destroyed by mostpublishers because they felt that it wasn’tworth the space it would take up in awarehouse. If an artist had wanted his work back, hecould have gotten it. However, most of us felt that the publishers paid usfor the work that we’d done, and that it now belonged to them. We wereperfectly satisfied with that.

JA: If I were 16 or 17 years old and drawing comics, I think if I’ddone something I really liked, I’d want examples of it to keep.

KUBERT: Well, you would if you felt that it was yours, but there was atacit understanding that when the guy paid you for the work, the workwas his. How could you ask him to give back something that he had justbought from you? We didn’t even think of it.

JA: Let’s discuss how you drew Hawkman’s wings.

KUBERT: I think I patterned the wings after Shelly Moldoff’s, to beginwith. Nobody asked me to do the costume differently, and I changedvery little about it, although our drawing styles were different. Then,little by little, I began to make the wings look more birdlike. I alsotinkered a little bit with the headgear.

JA: So it was a matter of artistic temperament rather than boredom?

KUBERT: Pretty much so. Later, Julie Schwartz suggested that wechange the mask and costume a little bit to create more interest in thecharacter. Up to that point, though, any changes that took place were atmy whim.

JA: The change you’re talking about is the one in the ’40s when yougot rid of the hawk mask and gave him a yellow pull-over mask

with a hawk emblem on it, right?

KUBERT: Yeah. There were several different changes.

JA: Although you weren’t involved inthe coloring of the stories that you didfor Shelly Mayer, did he encourageyou to think about color?

KUBERT: Absolutely. I had conver-sations with Sol Harrison, EddieEisenberg, and possibly Jack Adler.

They were doing colorplates for comic booksand working on colorseparations for HalFoster’s PrinceValiant at the sametime. They spent ahell of a lot more time

on Prince Valiant, andreally loved what they

were doing. Talking withthose guys really gaveinsight about color. Isometimes wrote colornotes on the pages. Idon’t know howmuch good they did;none of the artists who

added color notes knewwhether they’d be

followed, or even looked at.We hoped that somebody would payattention, though.

JA: Once the books were on the stands,how closely did you examine your work

in print?

KUBERT: Sometimes I didn’t want to look at itat all, because the color registration was so far off, and

sometimes the black plates turned out to be gray. It really hurt to look atthe printed results.

JA: Were you making mental notes about what printed well, whatreduced well, and what didn’t?

KUBERT: Yeah, but to say that it wasn’t a thrill to see your stuff inprint would have been a bald lie. Every one of us looked forward toseeing the stuff in print, knowing that it was actually being publishedand going all over the United States. It was always a thrill that otherpeople were actually seeing the stuff.

JA: Would you say that even though you were still learning the craft,

“A Chance To Spread My Wings” 7

Here’s a progression ofHawkman heads, to demonstrate

how Joe slowly evolved the look. (Clockwisefrom above:) (a) Head by Sheldon Moldoff fromFlash Comics #40 (April 1943)… (b) Kubert’s first

Hawkman story, Big All-American Comic Book (1944)… (c)another head from his Flash debut in #62 (Feb. ’45)… (d) thehelmet-wings are beginning to flare a bit by Flash #66 (Aug.-Sept. ’45)… (e) they reach their most dramatic form, in Ye

Editor’s view, in Flash #73 (July ’46)… (f) they get maybe a weebit too wild by #75 (Sept. ’46)… (g) in Flash #88 (Oct. ’47),suddenly the head-wings are more subdued—and the mask is

abruptly missing a bottom beak!… (h) the “beak” shape abruptlyvanishes completely in the very next issue, #89 (Nov. ’47), thoughthe #88 look will pop up again in an occasional story… and (i)

both the head-wings and hawk-like helmet are dropped infavor of a simple cowl with a hawk-sigil, as of Flash Comics

#98 (Aug. ’48). This was probably a decision made bynew full-editor Julius Schwartz, who succeeded

Shelly Mayer when he resigned in 1947-48.Thanks to Al Dellinges for the Kubert

samples. [©2005 DC Comics.]

NTERVIEWER’S NOTE:It’s been my goodfortune to spend time

with Irwin Hasen at comicbook conventions. This pastyear, we sat next to eachother at Heroes Con inCharlotte, NC, and while Idid most of the talking,Irwin—as always—enter-tained me with storiesabout people he hadknown in comics. I realizedI wanted to get some ofthat information in print,and happily, Irwin agreedto this interview, whichwas meant to complementRoy Thomas’ interviewwith him, which appearedin the first issue of the current volume of Alter Ego. As many of youknow, Irwin’s the life of every convention he attends. And he placesgood, affordable prices on the work he sells, too—so tell Irwin thatAlter Ego sent you the next time you see him. Thanks, Irwin, for afun and informative chat.—Jim.

JIM AMASH: You mentioned Bert Whitman to me at the HeroesConvention this past June. What can you tell me about him?

IRWIN HASEN: Bert Whitman was a top editorial cartoonist at aDetroit newspaper in the 1930s. He left the Midwest and came to NewYork, where he became sort of an entrepreneur, working for thepublisher of The Green Hornet. I met him during that time. After that,he did a comic strip called Debbie Dean for The New York Post. He’sthe one who arranged to have me do The Goldbergs. Jerry Robinsonwas supposed to do it first, but there was an altercation over salarybetween Jerry and the executive editor. Jerry just sort-of conked out andBert called me.

I had just gotten out of the Army, and it was a wonderful oppor-tunity for me. I worked there in the newspaper office for one of thehappiest years of my life. Just like in the movies—The Front Page, andall that. I worked there at a drawing board, and Stanley Kaufman wrotethe strip, though I never met him. He later became a music editor orsomething like that. I met some wonderful people there like VictorRiesel, the labor editor, who was blinded by gangsters.

Bert Whitman was a flamboyant guy. He was 6'4", very dapper, kind-of a playboy type. He was entrepreneur-ish; he wasn’t really a cartoonistas we know cartoonists. He has since died, by the way. I never sawenough of his editorial stuff to comment on it. Debbie Dean just brieflyhad its star.

Bert had been a polo player in Detroit. I visited him at his house inLong Island, and I saw his polo mallet in the corner. I said, “Gee, Bert,I’d love to have that for my apartment; I just moved in.” So he said,“Yeah okay, you can have it; I don’t need it.” About five years later, hewas moving out to Stockton, California, to become an editorialcartoonist, and Bert called me up and said, “Look, I’m moving out there.Could you mail me that mallet?” So I had to go to the Daily Newssyndicate, and have the mailroom guys wrap up his polo mallet and mailit to him. That was ridiculous... genuinely stupid on his part... not nice.

I worked in his office, doing “Cat-Man” at the time [1940]. I was toldby Julie Schwartz that I was the first one to draw “Cat-Man.” I don’tremember that, but if Julie said so, it had to be right.

JA: You started at the Chesler shop. What do you remember aboutHarry Chesler?

II

Irwin Hasen enjoying himself at the All Time Classic New York Comics

Convention in 2000—pages from his pre-WWII sting as a “Green Lantern” artist. At right is his splash from All-AmericanComics #47 (Feb. 1943). Thanks to

Joel Thingvall for the photocopy of theoriginal art. [GL art ©2005 DC Comics.]

“Cartoonists Are SoUnaware Of Who They Are!”IRWIN HASEN On Drawing “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” Et Al., In The Golden Age

Interview Conducted by Jim Amash Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

11The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part two

HASEN: He was a very interesting kind of a man. Hehad offices like a schoolroom: behind each old-fashioned desk was a cartoonist in his 20s, and hetreated them as if they were students. He was theheadmaster, with a felt hat, a cigar in his mouth, and a vest. He’d walkaround the guys like they were children in his classroom. They weredoing the odds and ends of his workshop. He farmed out work. I didsingle pages and sports cartoons for him—fillers. The others—CharlieBiro, Mort Meskin, Irv Novick—they all sat like children in a classroom.I worked as a staffer in his building from 1939 to 1940. He used to comeup to everybody at the end of the week and say, “How little do youneed to live on?” [laughter] And you looked at him as if he was joking,but he wasn’t! But he was all right. He was a man of his time. He wassort of a third-rate entrepreneur in a run-down building on East 23rdStreet, with a classroom.

Charlie Biro was a big, lovable guy in ared sweater with holes at the elbows,sitting there in the classroom. Then hewent on to work with Bob Wood at Lev

Gleason Publications, and he started to make a lot of money. I canremember when Charlie bought himself a Jaguar, a white one, and heshowed it to all of us. It was adorable. He opened up the trunk andshowed us the elegant toolbox that came with it. [laughs]

JA: Why did he have holes in his sweater?

HASEN: He was that kind of guy. He was probably broke. He was a“huh-huh-huh” kind of a guy. You know, “huh-huh-huh.”

JA: What do you remember about Mort Meskin and Irv Novick?

HASEN: Mort and I were very close. He wasvery shy; he stuttered. He was a low-key, shyman, very sensitive, and a wonderful artist. Hiseyes would blink when he stuttered. You knewhe was going to be in bad shape later in his life.You just had that feeling. We didn’t talk toomuch, but Mort was a sweetheart. My whole lifehas been about making people laugh. I don’tknow why, but that was my schtick in life, and Ialways loved to make Mort laugh.

Novick and his wife and I got to be veryfriendly. He was a grade-A carpenter; he built hishouse with his own hands. He was a great artist,one of the best. He always smoked a pipe.

JA: How many people were working in theChesler shop?

HASEN: About twenty people. Winsor McCay’sson Bob was also there. He was a quiet guy,

skinny and dark-skinned. Joe Kubert was Chesler’s mascot. He lovedJoe and Joe loved him. It was like a father-son relationship. But I don’tthink I met Joe until I was working for DC. We sat there quietly, gettingour work done. That’s all. There was no fooling around. I don’tremember how much I was paid... maybe it was $8 a page. We were paidin cash.

JA: Why did you leave Chesler?

HASEN: I went up to DC becausean uncle of mine knew JackLiebowitz, who was then anaccountant for Harry Donenfeld at

Bert Whitman Strikes Twice!(Above:) These final two panels from Whitman’s first DebbieDean, Career Girl newspaper daily—dated Jan. 11, 1942—follow ones explaining that “Debbie Dean, heiress to a

fabulous fortune, tires of the life of a debutante,” so shebecomes a reporter. This art was reprinted in Coulton

Waugh’s seminal 1947 book on comic strips, The Comics.

(Right:) Oddly, though Irwin Hasen drew the very first “Cat-Man” story in Holyoke’s Crash Comics #4, Whitmandrew the first cover featuring Cat-Man, on Crash #5

(Nov. 1940). [Debbie Dean art ©2005 The New York PostSyndicate or its successors in interest; Crash art ©2005

the respecive copyright holders.]

When editor Julius Schwartz reminded Irwin Hasen that he was the first artist to draw “Cat-Man,” hewas no doubt actually referring to “Wildcat,” which Irwin initiated later in DC/AA’s Sensation Comics #1(Jan. 1942). The rare drawing at left was done (and even colored!) by Irwin in 1941 for fellow artist JonChester (“Chet”) Kozlak, who drew “Wildcat” a couple of years later. A copy was sent to us by Hasen

agent (and friend) Dan Makara.

But Julie was right, albeit by accident! Irwin also drew the first “Cat-Man” story—for Crash Comics #4(Sept. 1940). As per the splash and other panel above, the Holyoke Cat-Man was originally a crossbetween Batman and Tarzan. This origin tale was reprinted in AC Comics’ Cat-Man Ashcan Edition

No. 2 (1996); check out AC’s ad elsewhere in this issue. [Wildcat art ©2005 Irwin Hasen; Wildcat TM & ©2005 DC Comics; restored “Cat-Man” art ©2005 AC Comics.]

12 Irwin Hasen On Drawing “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” Etc., In The Golden Age

Of The Spectre And Lesser LightsA Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star MURPHY ANDERSON

Conducted by Jim Amash Transcribed by Tom WimbishNTERVIEWER’S INTRO: Murphy Anderson’s role in the1960s revival of the Justice Society heroes was one of theartistic highlights of his career. His life-long fascination

with those characters made him a natural choice for the JSA-related team-ups in Showcase and The Brave and the Bold, aswell as the “Spectre” series that soon followed. Murphy wasn’table to continue down this path, but his warm, elegant artworkgreatly enriched the JSA mythos, and we’re happy that Murphyexpressed his thoughts about that work for us. This interview is©2005 Murphy Anderson & Jim Amash.—Jim.

JIM AMASH:Why were you picked for the JSA-related team-ups with Dr. Fate and Hourman, and Starman and BlackCanary, in 1965?

MURPHY ANDERSON: I was doing a lot of workfor Julie Schwartz at the time, and he knew that I wasfamiliar with all of those old characters, maybe more sothan some of the artists who had been with him longer.I knew all those characters from their earliest begin-nings. As we talked about it, I brought in copies of myold books with the characters in them. It worked outthat he needed me for the assignment, and the JSAbooks were done concurrently. I think “The Spectre”cropped up after the others were done.

JA: Since you grewup with thesecharacters, thesestories must havehad special meaningfor you.

ANDERSON: Sure.I liked “TheSpectre” quite wellwhen the characterwas originally introduced. “Starman”was just around; I never cared much for the feature. “Black Canary” waseven later; the character came out after World War II. I enjoyed “Dr.Fate” and “Hourman” very much.

I particularly liked Hourman; he even inspired a little marionette Imade when I was in junior high school there at Greensboro Central. Wehad a class project to make little marionettes. They were each about onefoot tall, and I designed a super-hero for one of mine. My mother seweda cape for him, and all that garbage. I made a hood for him out ofoilcloth, I believe. I forget what I called him, but it might have been oneof my own characters; I had a couple of ideas that I was playing with atthe time.

Mr. and Mrs. Murphy Anderson at the HeroesCon in Charlotte, NC (June 9, 2001)—a phototaken by Bob Bailey on the same day as that

of Hasen and Schwartz on p. 16—plus a chapter-splash from the first “Spectre” revival story, in Showcase #60 (Feb. 1966). If you wanna

see a great repro of that issue’s page 1 splash,grab a copy of R.C. Harvey’s excellent and art-filled 2003 volume The Life and Art of

Murphy Anderson—still on sale in this issue’sTwoMorrows ad bloc. [Spectre art ©2005

DC Comics.]

Murphy mentioned to Jim Amash that, circa 1940, he had drawn a one-pagesuper-hero parody called “Vita-Man,” so naturally Jim hounded the poor guy tillhe sent us a copy of this never-published piece. It came with a note from Murphy:

“WARNING! View enclosed at your peril! Definitely not for the faint of heart!…unless you have a very low brow!” Don’t be so hard on yourself, Murphy. It

would’ve fit nicely in any number of 1940s comics! (For Murphy’s “Time Traveler”and other amateur strips he used as samples, see R.C. Harvey’s Anderson tome.)

[©2005 Murphy Anderson.]

II

The All-Stars: From The ’40s to the ’80s part six

One of those was “The Time Traveler,” and years later, I got intobig discussions about him with Julie. He was a science-fiction super-hero type of character who could travel back and forth in time. Thatwas his power: he could leave a disaster and come back at a moreopportune time.

JA: You told me once that when theybrought back Black Canary, yousuggested she be an African-Americanwoman. Was that suggestion made forthis particular incarnation?

ANDERSON: Yes, a black singer. Imade the suggestion while they werediscussing her revival... before anythingwas plotted, but Julie didn’t like theidea. He didn’t think the time was rightfor it. Julie was “Black Canary’s”original editor [in the 1940s], and hemay have been attached to the characterjust as she was. He also knew the peoplein the front office wouldn’t go for it,because they were worried about howthe idea would be received in the South.

JA: Were the covers done before thestories?

ANDERSON: I think so. Julie pickedthe villains, like The Huntress andSportsmaster for the Starman/BlackCanary team-up. He wanted to usethose old characters, so we came upwith a cover that would show theirpowers off. Then for DoctorFate/Hourman, he wanted to useSolomon Grundy. He also had Green Lantern in that story, and Wildcatin one of the Starman/Black Canary stories. He wanted to feature asmany of those characters as he could in cameo appearances, or whateverit took to drag them in. Julie wanted to revive these characters, not intheir older guises, but as updated characters.

JA: So you think it was Julie’s idea to do these team-ups, rather thanthe front office?

ANDERSON: I had a little influenceon him, but we’d just toss ideasaround, accept them or reject them. Ialways liked Hourman, though I neverhad a great feeling for The GreenLantern. The concept of GreenLantern wasn’t science-fictiony; it waskind of magic. The Dr. Fate conceptwas a little different: it wasn’t magic, itwas mysticism. That was more inter-esting.

I’d always liked the Dr. Fatecharacter, and I liked Hourman. WhenI was a kid, I had a little character Iwas trying to do in a kind of Jack Colestyle, just as a filler page. I designedhim to be Vita-Man. He would size upa crime that was happening, and thenhe would take vitamin so-and-so...BXQ4 or something. He wouldswallow a pill and then take off afterthe bad guys.

JA: When you were doing the team-ups, did you research the old stories?

ANDERSON: Well, Julie andGardner Fox researched them, andthey may have used some of my old

books, I’m not sure. They had their own copies of the comics.

JA: How do you think Gardner Fox felt about those characters?

ANDERSON: Gardner was hard to read. I don’t know how much heenjoyed doing comics, but he was a workman and gave everything hisbest shot. He might not have liked them particularly; I don’t know. Henever intended to get into comics, but Vin Sullivan was a boyhood

(Above left:) This two-panel half-page of Hourman, Dr. Fate, and SolomonGrundy by Murphy Anderson is repro’d from a photocopy of the original art to theclassic Showcase #55 (March-April 1965), courtesy of Mike W. Barr & Tom Horvitz.

(Above:) Some years back, Murphy sketched this Solomon Grundy head for TomWatkins, who has “worked on film and TV crews as a ‘property man’ or set

dresser for close to thirty years.” Thanks for sharing it, Tom!

(Below:) Splash page from the first “Starman and Black Canary” full-lengther, inThe Brave and the Bold #61 (Sept. 1965). [Published art ©2005 DC Comics; Grundy

head art ©2005 Murphy Anderson; Solomon Grundy TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights 27

friend—they went to school together and kept in touch—and Vin askedGardner to come to work for him.

JA: “The Spectre” was one of my favorite series of yours, and kind-ofa departure from your other work.

ANDERSON: Julie and I had a lot of fun talking about those stories,because he brought in aspects that Jerry Siegel [co-creator and writer]never thought about. Julie drew inspiration from some of the masterwriters of the pulp field, and used some concepts out of their fiction.

JA: I’m looking at the Showcase cover where you have Starman andBlack Canary fighting The Mist. Were you looking at [Starman co-creator and artist] Jack Burnley for that, particularly in how youdelineated The Mist?

ANDERSON: Yes. I liked Burnley’s stuff, and wanted to keep thefeeling that Starman was different from Superman. Except for theheadgear and the colors, Starman and Superman were virtually the samecharacter, perhaps because Burnley had been doing a lot of Supermanbefore Starman.

JA: Your approach to “The Spectre” is somewhat different from yourapproach to “Atomic Knights,” because the themes were different.

ANDERSON: Actually, Julie and I both liked Virgil Finlay and two orthree other science-fiction pulp artists, and Julie would always say,“Give me a Finlay effect; give me a Finlay monster”... that sort of thing.So I’d usually pull out the fins and the finned ears to make them lookdifferent.

JA: Both of the Showcase Spectre covers are very striking; especiallyissue #61, with the villain hitting The Spectre over the head with theplanet Earth.

ANDERSON: That was Julie’s idea. I can’t take credit for that.

JA: DC must have known rather quickly that the “Spectre” featuresin Showcase did well, because he got his own series shortly after-wards.

ANDERSON: I think Julie was going to give him his own series, even ifhe didn’t sell particularly well. I don’t know how well they sold. He

liked the concept of the character, and so did I. Ofcourse, I took the job with Will Eisner while I wasstill waiting for a decision on The Spectre. Julieand I decided that I couldn’t do two books—eventhough they were bi-monthlies—while I wasworking for Eisner, so he decided to dropHawkman. That’s when Murray Boltinoff tookHawkman over, and Julie started The Spectre soI would have a bi-monthly magazine. I was happywith that decision, because I would rather havedrawn The Spectre than Hawkman. Besides,doing the special effects and backgrounds on TheSpectre was faster and more fun than doingmodern, present-day stuff.

I preferred drawing The Spectre because of theworkload: not only did Hawkman have wings,but he had a wife who had wings, and they[chuckle] went around together a great deal,which complicated things. I never really cared fordoing mob scenes; that was one of the drawbacksof doing “The Atomic Knights.” You had sixdifferent people wearing six different suits ofarmor. When the decision was made that two ofthe Knights would be brothers, I said, “Julie, ifthey’re brothers, couldn’t they be twin brothers?”

A couple of Anderson firsts: his cover for Showcase #60 (Feb. 1966), the first “Spectre” issue—and that of The Spectre #1 (Nov.-Dec. 1967). [©2005 DC Comics.]

“Not only did Hawkman have wings, but he had a wife who had wings!” Hey,but we loved the way you drew them, Murphy, as per this page from Hawkman

#12 (Feb.-March 1966). Thanks to Shane Foley for sending us b&w copies ofmuch of this issue, taken from an Australian reprint. [©2005 DC Comics.]

28 A Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson

/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Rich Buckler entered the comic bookfield in 1970 with black-&-white work forWarren Publications, but soon moved on to

DC and Marvel, where at one time or another overthe years he drew virtually every super-hero thatever was. I distinctly recall that the art samples heshowed me at Marvel circa 1971 dealt with a “wildman of the jungle” story and was an amalgamationof an illustrative Al Williamson-style approach withKirbyesque dynamics—and thus had some of thesame appeal of the work of Neal Adams. At Marvelhe and I worked together on various series,including the final three issues of my 70-issue run ofThe Avengers in 1972—several fun tales of theFantastic Four—and even one story for Conan theBarbarian! When I signed a contract with DC in1980 and began to develop All-Star Squadron as oneof my first projects there, I was fortunate in havingRich as artist—though not for nearly as long as I’dhave liked. In my various installments of “All-StarSquadron Chronicles” in A/E, I’ve unavoidablytalked about Rich Buckler—so I figured it was hightime I talked, on the record, with the artist Inicknamed “Rich ‘Swash’ Buckler.”—Roy.

ROY THOMAS: You and I had worked togetherbefore we did All-Star Squadron in 1980. I think wegenerally liked collaborating, but I don’t have anyrecollection of having had any major input on artistchoices at that stage. I’m curious if you rememberhow you happened to get the job. Did [editor] Len

Wein call you?

RICH BUCKLER: I don’t remember exactly. It might have been Len,or it might have been Paul Levitz, but I jumped at the opportunity! Ialways like working with you.

RT: Of course, for all I remember, Len and I may have kickedaround artists’ names, and if we did, yours would’ve come up.Anyway—I’ve always had this vague memory that the drawing thatwas used as the cover of All-Star Squadron #1—the one withHawkman, Dr. Mid-Nite, and The Atom leaning over the table withall the hero photos on it—was originally supposed to be the “insidecover” of the 16-page free Preview that would be inserted in JusticeLeague of America #193—and that the drawing you did of the entireJSA charging towards the reader was to be the cover of All-StarSquadron #1—but that they got switched around, probably by Len.

BUCKLER: Yeah, I remember that vaguely, too. I remember havingtrouble drawing the one that was for the Preview, because it involvedthe Capitol Building, and it was a lot of work to do. [chuckles] I didn’treally want to do that one.

“I Jumped At The Opportunity!”RICH BUCKLER Talks To A Longtime Collaborator About The All-Star SquadronInterview Conducted by Roy Thomas Transcribed by Brian K. Morris

35The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part seven

AA

Rich Buckler, in a recent photo—with (below) the Buckler-

Giordano art that became the“interior cover” of the 16-pageAll-Star Squadron Preview

included as a free insert in JusticeLeague of America #193, and(right) their cover for All-StarSquadron #1 (Sept. 1981), minusmost wordage. Read below howthese two pages were probablyoriginally intended for their

opposite numbers. [Art ©2005 DCComics.]

RT: I would have thought the other one with all the “photos”would’ve been harder.

BUCKLER: No, no. That one was a pure pleasure.

RT: Who came up with the layout? Was it Len’s idea, then you did theexact layout?

BUCKLER: I remember it as your idea.

RT: Mine?

BUCKLER: For some reason, I remember speaking to you on thephone about it.

RT: I would love to think that it was—[laughs]—since that’s one ofmy all-time favorite covers on any comic that I wrote. The only thingwrong with those covers—which I later had you correct on the twore-creations you did for me—was that, somehow, on both of them,Starman got left off in favor of other characters. For instance, TheShining Knight was in the “charging” scene, as if he’d been a memberof the JSA, which he never was. But that was minor.

[NOTE: As this issue of A/E was in preparation, I e-mailed Len Wein

about the two covers, and he responded: “To the best of my recol-lection, the table cover was my idea, and I believe the ‘changingcovers’ [i.e., switching which would go on the Preview in JLA #193,and which on All-Star Squadron #1] was yours. I think we may havetoyed with the idea of switching them at some point, but, like you, Ireally love the table shot and am glad we went with it.” Thanks, Len.—Roy.]

BUCKLER: Well, there were a lot of characters! [Roy laughs] You sentme a couple of boxes of photocopied research, which was tremendouslyhelpful. I don’t own all of these books. I remember you saying thatcover with the photos might be “too much work,” but I was just willingto throw myself into it.

RT: Because I conceived All-Star Squadron as a combination of newstories, adaptations of Golden Age tales, and events from actualWorld War II history, I sent you lots of reference—not just for #1, butover those five-plus issues you did, a fair amount of referencematerial—even books and so forth. Did you ever feel kind-ofoverwhelmed by it? Some artists I’ve worked with resented beingasked to do “research”—by which was generally meant just openingthe books or paging through the material I sent them.

BUCKLER: I really appreciated it. Actually, I’m a research nut. In fact,

“Well, there were a lot of characters!” says Rich—and no one woulddispute the point. This Buckler-Ordway chapter splash from All-Star

Squadron #3 (Nov. 1981) depicts twelve heroes—counting Johnny Thunder’sThunderbolt and Danette Reilly, soon to be the new Firebrand—convergingon the still-smoking ruins of Pearl Harbor. The date is December 8, 1941, theday after the Imperial Japanese attack that Degaton’s treachery had keptthe JSA from preventing. Script by Roy Thomas. Repro’d from a photocopy

of the original art, courtesy of Rick Shurgin. [©2005 DC Comics.]

This Buckler-penciled, Ordway-inked, Thomas-scripted fact page features JSAfoe Per Degaton—whose second past-altering plot was the linchpin of All-StarSquadron #1-3—appeared in issue #2. His first, of course, had been in All-StarComics #35 in 1947. When Degaton had returned in the first Injustice Societytale, in All-Star #37, there were several discrepancies with his appearance

only four months earlier, so Roy set the 1981 story in between those two epics,and had fun reconciling them. Repro’d from a photocopy of the original art,

from Roy’s personal collection. [©2005 DC Comics.]

36 Rich Buckler Talks About The All-Star Squadron

I remember that, when I worked with you on Captain America: TheMedusa Effect, one of the main characters was Nikola Tesla. I didn’tknow who Tesla was before that. After that, I became so interested that Igot everything I could that was printed on him.

I had a few of the black-&-white reprint comics from that time, onmy own. They helped me get into the feel, the flavor of the ’40s. Andalso, I think I had a lot of reprints of newspaper strip art from aroundthat time.

RT: I felt that, if I was going to ask somebody to draw this comicbook that’s almost like a tapestry or a mosaic of early DC history, I’dbetter be the one who does most of the legwork on it. I figured youwere doing enough just to draw it.

BUCKLER: Well, it wasn’t enough just to draw it. For me, it wasnecessary to capture the flavor of that time period, too, so I worked hardon that—and at the same time to make it a comic for the ’80s, new andfresh and exciting.

RT: That was a tightrope we were always walking. So what were youexpecting when Jerry Ordway, as a newcomer, was assigned to inkthe book?

BUCKLER: I had no idea who he was. I saw some of what looked to

me like a Wally Wood influence and Ithought, “Oh, that’s good.” Len

showed it to me and said, “Don’tworry. The guy’s really good.”

And it wouldn’t be the firsttime I worked withsomeone new or evenbroke that person in.

RT: At one time youhad newcomerslike GeorgePérez andArvell Jones

and CraigRussell and

different peopleworking with you.

BUCKLER: Right—and Jim Lee. Iremember when wedid some

independentpublishing, we

published Jim Lee’s first work. I’ve always been open to new people.And in Jerry Ordway’s case, it was a delightful surprise.

RT: My recollection is that, when you drew Degaton, who’d been intwo issues of All-Star Comics, I was surprised because you drew himsix feet tall, and he’d always been drawn as very short. Were youinstructed to make Degaton taller?

BUCKLER: I don’t remember. I think probably I was concentrating onthe storytelling and characterizing him as imposing a figure as possible.

RT: When you did a “Fact File” pin-up of Degaton, his proportionsare more like a guy 5’4” at most. By that time, we’d got it straight,and the copy reflected his correct height.

BUCKLER: I made sure that The Atom was short!

RT: Degaton was a Napoleon type in military garb. Were there anycharacters, either the JSA or heroes we brought in from other DC andQuality comics, that you particularly liked—or hated—to draw?Johnny Quick or Liberty Belle or Robotman…

BUCKLER: Johnny Quick was a favorite of mine. I just liked thatwhole relationship where it’s two characters in one, and—no, I’m sorry,not Johnny Quick. Johnny Thunder.

RT: Johnny Thunder? We didn’t do much with him.

BUCKLER: But I liked him. He was sort-of like the Captain Marvel-Billy Batson thing. Robotman was also one of my favorites. And ShiningKnight—I love drawing guys on flying horses.

RT: [laughs] Yeah, there’s so many of them. Years later, of course, weworked on The Black Knight at Marvel together, too. What aboutLiberty Belle, who had that weird outfit?

BUCKLER: Ah, I loved Liberty Belle.

RT: Really? Despite the jodhpurs and all that? That was kind-ofunusual. She was like this cross between a strong Barbara Stanwyckand, in her solo stories in the 1940s, Veronica Lake with her peekaboohair style.

BUCKLER: Yeah, and it was hard to get her to look right at the rightangle for the different shots, and I worked at it because I liked thedifferent look.

“I Jumped At The Opportunity!” 37

Rich says he especially liked drawing Johnny Thunder and The ShiningKnight, both seen with their unique modes of transportation on the

preceding page—as well as Robotman, shown here in the Buckler-Ordwaysplash from All-Star Squadron #3, and Liberty Belle, whom they depicted in

this pin-up. Also shown on the splash, of course, are Hawkman, JohnnyQuick, and Per Degaton; it’s repro’d from a photocopy of the original art,provided by Jerry K. Boyd. Thanks to Jerry Ordway for the 1981 Liberty Belleart. The latter was printed in All-Star Squadron #10 (June ’82): no crack was

added to the bell sigil (since the crack hadn’t appeared in her 1940sadventures in Boy Commandos and Star Spangled Comics), although it hadbeen added in the 1980s stories, starting with Squadron #2. But Roy didhave Rich & Jerry give Belle a mask, which she lacked in the ’40s tales.

[©2005 DC Comics.]

/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Has it really been thirty issues—pushing three years—since the first partof this interview, titled “Inking Comics the ORDway,” appeared in Alter Ego #14? Clearly,super-heroes aren’t the only thing that flies when you’re having a good time. Back then, Jerry

spoke of how, in 1980, he landed his first pro assignment under editor Len Wein: All-Star Squadron.That part of this interview dealt with Jerry’s inking Rich Buckler’s pencils in the Preview insert inJustice League of America #193 and in the five issues Rich drew of the regular Squadron series.This second segment covers both his remaining stint on the comic, and how he segued over to thenew Infinity, Inc. title. As the writer and co-creator of both those series, it was a pleasure to workwith Jerry on them, and to re-live those halcyon days in this interview.—Roy.

ROY THOMAS: How did you feel about Adrian Gonzales, who replaced Rich starting with All-Star Squadron #6?

JERRY ORDWAY: Adrian did a respectable job, though Len’s first comments to meindicated that he thought I would abandon the book when Rich did. I was toonew to realize that was the way the game wasplayed. I wasn’t going anywhere, as I would’vehonored my 12-issue contract, anyway.

“You Put Me Through My Paces!”JERRY ORDWAY On Working With MIKE MACHLAN& ROY THOMAS On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc.

Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas Via E-Mail

43The All-Stars: From The ’40s to the ’80s part eight

AA

(Above:) Jerry Ordway with his threechildren, Rachel, Thomas, and James (the

youngest). Jerry’s wife, Peggy May Ordway,worked as marketing &�publicity director for

DC Comics from 1985-90. Photo by hismother-law, Mr. Pat Donath. A family affair!

(Below:) Jerry drew this panoramic two-page spread for the “All-Star Squadron”

entry in Who’s Who: The Definitive Directoryof the DC Universe #1 (March 1985). Ofcourse, it depicts only a fraction of the

actual membership, especiallly before Crisison Infinite Earths thinned the ranks by a halfdozen or so heroes by 1986. Repro’d from aphotocopy of the original art, courtesy of

Jerry Ordway. [©2005 DC Comics.]

RT: Weren’t Adrian’s pencils looser than Rich’s? Did Len and/or Ihave you doing even more changes?

ORDWAY: Adrian was doing more traditional layouts, I guess. Theyhad more structure than much of what Rich did, but had no mood orlighting indicated. As for changes, there were a fair amount asked for,but I liked what the guy did. I also guess, at that point I had become themore important part of the art team, as you and Len looked to me tokeep the artwork consistent with the previous five issues.

RT: At this point you began inking the covers, as well, includingRich’s final one on #6.

ORDWAY: I was ready by then, I think, and enjoyed it a lot. Hawkmanlooked like your favorite Kubert version on that one!

RT: How did you feel about the Joe Kubert covers that began againwith #7?

ORDWAY: I was torn, really, because they were great covers, and I’m ahuge fan of Joe’s, but I really wanted the whole book to have my stampon it artistically. I understood Len’s thinking, though.

RT: You also inked the Don Heck-penciled “Steel” episodes that Itossed in from his canceled title. How was Don to ink?

ORDWAY: I inked most of it on a lightbox, working from stats of analready-inked job, from the Cancelled Comic Cavalcade. You cut andpasted that job and wrote a framing sequence that Adrian Gonzalesdrew. I didn’t want to ink on vellum this time, as my last suchexperience [on All-Star Squadron #1] had been a nightmare, so I wentall-out and redrew it on board, and had fun with the zip-a-tone. Yearslater, at a DC Christmas party, I met Don Heck, and he told me howmuch he liked it, so that was gratifying.

RT: With #7 I just began referring to you and Gonzales in the creditsas the “artists,” rather than penciler and inker or embellisher. Didyou ask for the change, do you recall?

ORDWAY: I’m sure I was relentless with Len in getting credit I thoughtwas due. Remember, DC kept stringing me along about getting pencilingwork, and I felt I had a lot to prove, so I was pretty touchy about that. Ifound that, as we went along, I was asked to redraw more and morepanels per issue, so I guess that was good therapy for the penciler in me,too.

RT: You did an intended cover for All-Star Squadron #11 with that“alien” facing the heroes, but it wasn’t used. (Joe Kubert did thatcover, too.) I used your drawing as a pin-up later. Had you just donethat possible cover on your own, or had you worked it out with Len?

This action page, inked and finished by Jerry Ordway, is from All-StarSquadron #6 (Feb. 1982), the first issue with pencil breakdowns by AdrianGonzales. Repro’d from a photocopy of the (autographed) original art,

courtesy of Michael Dunne. [©2005 DC Comics.]

44 Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc.

Jerry’s first attempt at an All-Star Squadron cover was this sterling art, done for issue #11 (July 1982). It saw print four years later as a color pin-up in All-Star Squadron #65. Repro’d from a photocopy of the

original art, courtesy of J.O. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ORDWAY: I just did it, I think, when I was inking the interiors of thebook—I’m sure, with your blessing. I sent it in, only to find that Kuberthad already turned in a cover for that issue. I was trying to break out ofthe inker’s rut, and never expected to get paid for it when it wasn’tneeded, though you did use it later and I was paid then.

RT: You skipped one issue—#13, which was inked by Mike DeCarlo.Remember why? Perhaps because you were working on the All-StarSquadron Annual around that time?

ORDWAY: Yes, it was a big job, that one, and also another favoritestory of mine that you wrote. I really worked over Adrian’s layouts onthat! I think it holds up well, if I say so myself.

RT: I agree with you. In the Annual, you did a pin-up of TheGuardian and The Newsboy Legion [see p. 3]. Was this Len’s idea, oryours?

ORDWAY: I think Len threw that to me as a bone, to appease me. I didthe cover of that one, as well, pencils and inks. They gave me an EdHannigan sketch to work from, and I recall totally finishing it, and thennot being satisfied with it, as I was just fighting the layout. Ed’s coversketches were great, and you could basically just blow them up and inkthem on a lightbox, but again, at this time, I was trying to prove myself,

so I did another version, veering more from Ed’s layout, and sent themboth in. I’m pretty sure, thinking back on it, that Len used the secondone I did [see next page]. I felt I was getting somewhere! I got to do acover!

RT: All-Star Squadron #14-15 were part of 1981’s JLA-JSA crossover.Was this the first time you’d worked on the JLA?

ORDWAY: Yes, in comic book form. I had drawn them before in fandrawings, and also a coloring/activity book for Golden Books. That hadled to my getting work from DC a few years later.

RT: In #16-18 Adrian was inked by Rick Hoberg—then you returnedin #19 doing full pencils and inks. Were you off All-Star Squadron forthree issues so you could pencil #19? If so, I must’ve done one plotway ahead of time.

ORDWAY: Well, essentially, you plotted ahead on #19, and then wrote#16-18 while I was toiling away on the pencils. I needed the lead time, asthe book was running pretty late, and Len didn’t want me startingbehind the eight-ball, deadline-wise. I needed that time, too, because Iwas pretty rusty storytelling-wise, after all that inking.

RT: How did you get Len to give you a shot at penciling the book?

The pages of All-Star Squadron #8-9 which featured a solo flashback starring Steel, the Indestructible Man, were left over from the never-published 6th issue ofthat hero’s own title, which had fallen victim to the so-called “DC Implosion” of 1978. That tale (splash at left), by Gerry Conway (script), Don Heck (pencils),

and Joe Giella (inks), was one of numerous stories distributed to a small, select audience in two house-assembled volumes of Cancelled Comic Cavalcade.

Roy liked the notion of adding a “Captain America type” to the All-Stars; thus, with Gerry’s blessing and editor Len Wein’s okay, that unused “Steel” story wasserialized over two issues of the new mag, re-inked by Jerry Ordway since the photocopies in CCC were less than pristine. The two new panels at the top of the

Squadron page (right) were drawn by Gonzales and Ordway, and written by Roy T. (By the way, that’s British Prime Minister Winston Churchill smoking the cigarin panel 2.) Roy, however, didn’t care much for the name “Steel” by itself, so at the end of #9 he promoted the hero to “Commander Steel”—and thus he

remained for the rest of the series. [©2005 DC Comics.]

“You Put Me Through My Paces!” 45

Was Adrian leaving of his own accord at the time, or did you forcethe issue?

ORDWAY: Well, as I stated, DC was giving me the runaround onpenciling assignments. While inking All-Star, I started inking the“Huntress” back-up feature in Wonder Woman. Joe Staton waspenciling it, and I was told he was leaving in a few issues. Well, I inkedtwo, and then a third, and I asked what was going on, and then had achance to talk with Staton, who said he wasn’t going anywhere—heloved doing “The Huntress.” I felt burned.

Anyhow, I guess Ernie Colón, who was editing Flash at the time,heard my plight and offered me an 8-page “Creeper” back-up, pencilsand inks. I decided that, if I didn’t take that, I’d never get a chance tomove up again. I called Len and quit All-Star. He asked me why, and Itold him. He then shot back at me, “Why don’t you pencil All-Star,instead?” I was flabbergasted. I told him I didn’t want to bump Adrianoff the book, as that was unfair. Len said he would switch Adrian toArak and keep him busy. I thought about it a second, and said yes.[NOTE: Arak, Son of Thunder was a sword-and-sorcery title thatmy wife Dann and I had created at the same time I’d started All-StarSquadron. —Roy.]

RT: I must’ve sent you lots of reference about the 1939-40 New YorkWorld’s Fair, since in #19 you drew the Four Freedoms statues, Electrothe Robot, the Trylon and Perisphere, etc.

ORDWAY: You did send me a lot of reference, but I had the shots ofthe Four Freedoms in the 1930s volume of Time-Life’s This FabulousCentury series, which I’d been using for reference on period detailanyway.

RT: You had a lot of heroes to draw in #19, since there are a half adozen or so All-Stars—then eight members of the JSA in captivity.How hard was it to pencil a book like All-Star Squadron?

ORDWAY: It was a trial by fire, that’s for sure! I have always been ascribbler as a penciler, preferring to finish the drawing in ink. I had tolearn on the job to pencil tightly, so that I wouldn’t torture some poor

inker later, with sketchy or vague pencils.

RT: You both penciled and inked #19-20, the story in which all theAll-Stars seemed to die in their dreams. Any particular thoughtsabout it?

ORDWAY: Well, I ate up my lead time, discovering I couldn’t penciland ink on a monthly schedule! I had a lot of fun drawing Electro, therobot from the Fair. Also, DC stuck pretty close to the color guides Idid for those two covers. It was an emotional story, and I didn’t want tocheat the readers, so I threw everything I had into it.

RT: I’ve always felt the covers for both those issues were extra-ordinary. Were you happy to finally be doing covers? (What happenedto the original art, by the way? Do you still have photocopies of anycovers or interior art?)

46 Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc.

Jerry’s cover for All-Star Squadron Annual #1 (1982). Repro’d fromphotocopies of the original art, courtesy of J.O. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ALTER EGO #44JSA/All-Star Squadron/Infinity Inc. special! Interviews with KUBERT, HASEN, ANDERSON, ORDWAY, BUCKLER,THOMAS, 1940s Atom writer ARTHUR ADLER, art by TOTH,SEKOWSKY, HASEN, MACHLAN, OKSNER, and INFANTINO,FCA, and MR. MONSTER’S “I Like Ike!” cartoons by BOBKANE, INFANTINO, OKSNER, and BIRO! WraparoundORDWAY cover!

(100-page magazine) $5.95(Digital Edition) $2.95 US

IF YOU ENJOYED THIS PREVIEW,CLICK THE COVER TO ORDER THIS

ISSUE IN PRINT OR DIGITAL FORMAT!

Jerry still has photocopies of several pages of Adrian Gonzales’ pencil layoutsfor All-Star Squadron #18 (Feb. 1983)—ironically, an issue inked by RickHoberg, while Jerry was busy working on #19, his first penciling effort. #18introduced readers to Tarantula, who in the 1940s sported a costume nigh-identical to Sandman’s purple-and-yellow togs. The hammer-wieldingvillain is “Fairytales” Fenton, a.k.a. “The Villain from Valhalla,” who’ddebuted as a fake Thor in Simon & Kirby’s “Sandman” tale in Adventure

Comics #75 (June 1942). We’d show you a Simon & Kirby “Thor” page, or eventhe finished page by Gonzales/Hoberg—but we’ve gotta hold something backfor our extended coverage of the Golden Age roots of All-Star Squadron inthe trade paperback All-Star Companion, Vol. 2, due out later this year!

[©2005 DC Comics.]