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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICEInternal Affairs Division

IA # 08-0080

Interview with Sergeant Lugo, S1480March 9, 2011

LICKING: Alright, uh, recorders goin. Time in is about, uh, 12:10. And for the sake of the

recording, Im Sergeant Brad Licking, serial number 1122, and Ive got Sergeant

Cory Morrison, 1509

MORRISON: Yep.

LICKING: and Greg, can you state your name and your serial number for us.

LUGO: Uh, Greg Lugo, uh, serial number 1-4-8-0.

LICKING: Okay, great. Uh, for the purpose of the recording this is for, uh, Internal Affairs

investigation 08-0080. Uh, the date is 3-9 of 11. Um, Greg, before we got started

I went ahead and brought in a Notice of Investigation and the Garrity Warning

paperwork here. I noticed its got some signatures. Are those are your signatures

on that?

LUGO: Yes, they are.

LICKING: Okay. Did you happen to have any questions about either of those forms?

LUGO: No.

LICKING: Okay. Um, and to be fair to you just, just so you understand and we kinda talked

about it briefly we started but, um, yeah, I understand this has been several years

ago. The information that youre gonna be bringing up, um, you know you may,you may recall stuff right away. You know you may have to refer. I noticed you

brought some folders and you may have refer to that, um, and we understand that.

Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982Typed by: A9998Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 1 of 57

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Um, you know its one of those things that you know itd be hard for me to

remember if something happened at least a year ago type thing. So, um, and beforewe kinda get into that you and I have never worked together. Um, how long have

you worked for the Sheriffs Office?

LUGO: Uh, itll be just under ten years.

LICKING: Okay. And what positions have you held since youve been with us?

LUGO: Um, as a Deputy Sheriff when I was hired, worked in Court Security or

Transportation Division. I forget what they called it at the time. Uh, went out to

District I, worked patrol out in District I. Um, then was transferred down to the

General Investigations Divisions and worked in the Jail Crimes Unit as a Detective.

I was then promoted to Sergeant. I stayed in the Jail Crimes Unit of General

Investigations, worked as a Sergeant for some time. And then also took on the

supervisor responsibilities on top of the Jail Crimes Unit of the Arson or Fire

Investigations Unit as well and then was transferred to the Special Victims Unit,

where I was the Sergeant supervisor there.

From there I was transferred to the Organizational Development Bureau or

Division, um, where I worked for I wanna say about a year, uh, doing various

duties and was then transferred to Enforcement Support Division for

approximately a month give or take. And then was transferred back out to District

I, Patrol Division, where Ive worked there on two different squads since, uh, that

time.

LICKING: Okay, and thats where youre currently assigned?

LUGO: Thats where Im currently assigned.


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LICKING: Okay, alright. Um, like I said, I notice you brought some stuff in. I dont know if

you wanna grab that but, uh, basically what Im gonna go ahead, go ahead and justask. Um, when you transferred, when you were in GID and you transferred over to

the SVU, whos position did you replace over there?

LUGO: It was Sergeant, at the time, Sergeant, uh, Kim Seagraves.

LICKING: Okay. And do you, do you recall about the timeframe that happened?

LUGO: I wanna say it was beginning of 08, 2008 sometime January, February, March-ish,

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: somewhere in there.

LICKING: Um, at that time, uh, just from having gone over some of the older, uh, files and

what not, its my understanding at least by the beginning of 08, uh, really near the

end of 07 is when the transition a- away from the city of El Mirage occurred. Is

that, is that correct?

LUGO: Um, I believe. I was, of course, over in the Jail Crimes side at the time of the

transition. I wanna say it was late 07, beginning of 08, somewhere in there. I

dont remember. I know it was a transition that went on for several weeks back

and forth but, uh, we had actually cases when I was in the Fire Investigations Unit

that we had to transfer back over to them.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: So I, I dont have a specific date but probably the end of 07 would, would give a


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ball park.

LICKING: Okay. Do you recall when you took over, uh, as the supervisor of the SVU do you

remember having any cases that were assigned to the City of El Mirage that you

guys were responsible for or does, does that a ring bell or?

LUGO: Well, (chuckle) there were, um, the way I understood it was there were cases that

were backed over to El Mirage from the Special Victims Unit. I believe and this is

what sort of started the whole ball rolling was that we were, at least I coming in as

a supervisor, was not aware completely and the Detectives were not aware

completely of exactly what cases they even had.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: Um, as in a standard case log or something of that nature. So could I say with

certainty that they did not have El Mirage cases or cases that occurred in the town

of El Mirage or city of El Mirage? I cant say that when I first got in there o- of

any certainty.

Um, I believe there were some cases just going off memory that they were doing

some follow up, what not, um, or at the end on the back end of cases that either

had something to do with El Mirage or, um, occurred in the town limits.

LICKING: Okay. Um, but to kinda clarify in my own mind, at least to your the best you can

recall, you werent assigned any brand new cases from the time you took over as,

as the new supervisor that originated out of the city of El Mirage?

LUGO: Correct, that is correct, yes.

LICKING: So there might be a possibility that the guys were still doin follow up on some


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older cases,

LUGO: Yeah.

LICKING: but from the time you took over you guys didnt acquire any new ones from El

Mirage?

LUGO: That would be correct.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: We requi- we did not acquire any new cases from El Mirage

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: from the time I took over onward.

LICKING: Do you remember, uh, from the time you took over, uh, who the Detectives were

that were workin for you there in SVU?

LUGO: Um, when I first took over (pause) the Detectives were, uh, Jon Felbab, uh, Gerry

Edgar, um, who had just come in there probably a month or two before me or

maybe even a couple weeks, uh, Detective, uh, Jim Wee, Detective Mary Ward

and Detective, uh, Roy Rojas. That would be five, I believe?

LICKING: Um hum.

LUGO: One, two, three, four, five.

LICKING: Um.


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LUGO: There were also two Detectives in the Sex, uh, Crimes Notification who I alsothen supervised as well.

LICKING: Okay, do you remember who that was?

LUGO: Uh, Shannon Reed

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: and Shari Decker.

LICKING: But their, their primary goal was the Sex Crimes Notification?

LUGO: Correct.

LICKING: They didnt necessarily work the, the other cases and?

LUGO: They, they a- they were, uh, assist mode, uh, for other cases,...

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: callouts, etcetera. But I do not believe they had any

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: routine cases from this side of the, of the Unit.

LICKING: Do you recall, um, Eric Harrala workin for you?


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LUGO: I do.

LICKING: Uh, was was that at the same time, too or was it later or?

LUGO: He worked for me in, um, Jail Crimes and I wanna say that Detective Edgar

replaced him from Jail Crimes and Harrala. They sw- they swapped.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: So then Harrala would have, uh, actually worked for me in Jail Crimes for I wanna

say anywhere from a week to a couple months right before I then went over to Sex

Crimes.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: So Harrala did not work for me at that time for, uh, as a supervisor, uh, of Sex

Crimes.

LICKING: Gotcha, okay.

LUGO: Now he did come back for a short duration like a TDY period.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: Back and I think I could find the approximate date for a week or so to help clear

up some stuff.

LICKING: Would that be part of the power squad or?

LUGO: No, he came back sort of as a thing, uh, once he got transferred out to District


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VII, I believe it was. He came back once we had some still some more questions

or he had some more property to address. It was, I wanna say, a week to may-maybe a couple days to a week that he came back and so he then he worked under

me, if you wanna say for, for that time

LICKING: Sure.

LUGO: just to, to clear up some questionable, some questions that nobody down there

had, had answers to.

LICKING: Okay. Um, instead of us asking a lot of questions, cause that would you know

theres just so much to this case to begin with. What I was hoping you might be

able to do is from the time you went over to the Special Victims Unit, um, it was

my understanding that at least sometime early on, um, you were able to work with

Lieutenant Kevin Riddle and perform, um, at least whats titled in another volume

is the SUV Audit. Um, and well, obviously, have some more questions as we go

but right now Id just kinda like to open up the floor just to let you explain what

your understanding of what that audit was and what your role was, uh, you with,

uh, Lieutenant Riddle and what were some of the things that you, you, you saw as

issues some, some problems that you had. Um, who you were able to at least say

you know should have been responsible for those types of, um, issues. Um, and

then what in your opinion may have been done to correct those issues. And I know

thats a, thats a, a ton of information and what not. So if you can as it kinda

comes back to your recollection if you can just kinda tell me from the beginning,

um, with the audit what were, what were you responsible for?

LUGO: Okay. Let me find (pause).

LICKING: And dont feel bad if you gotta keep jumpin from on your while youre. Uh, we

understand its a lotta stuff.


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LUGO: Its, its going to happen, okay? So this I think is first. This one. (Pause) And thatis this. (Pause) Okay, I think this is mine. (Pause) This one actually needs to.

Well, I was assigned to the Special Victims U- Unit like we said, uh, the beginning

of 08. Um, I dont recall an exact date, um, when that was. But I wanna say it

was January, February, March-ish, somewhere in there. And, um, coming in to the,

to the unit, um, at the, at the immediate time well, my supervisor was Lieutenant

Schoeninger, um, the male Schoeninger. I forget what his first, Jim Schoeninger.

(Phone sounds) Um, he was my Lieutenant for a very short period of time when I

first came into the unit. And during that time Im trying to, of course, be bring

myself up to speed with all the training, Policies, procedures, practices of working

these types of cases, which is a little bit unique, um, compared to Jail Crimes cases

or District Detective type cases when you deal with sex crimes and especially

children.

So during the course of a couple different months, um, questions started to arise,

uh, from perspective of, uh, not having a clear cut, uh, understanding of which

cases each Detective had, who was working what cases, um, and uh, where the

cases were going or have a good grasp of what was actually taking place, what

type of performance was being done.

During the course of subsequent months, um, I started to, uh, receive I called

them, uh, dis- discover reports, so to speak. Um, whether they called in as

complaints, um, people want calling in wondering about their case, uh, things such

of that nature and that started to raise some red flags with me. What I started to do

because it, it I started to assume that possibly, uh, the issue was bigger than just a

single case after I received several phone calls, uh, from regarding different cases

and different Detectives. Um, and when I looked at the case, looked at the case

there were questions that rose up from a supervisor standpoint.


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I started to document those in what I called was a discovery report. Um, as youcan see this is one here. It sort of gives a breakdown of the various cases. Um, Ill

go through one an, an, an example. Um, this was the end of April of 08 I received

a phone call, uh, from a subject inquiring the status of his case. Uh, we located a

case number, um, and he went on to, um, basically say that, uh, nothing has

happened to the suspect in the case, um, and uh, he was requesting a copy of the

report. And he was, of course, upset that nothing happened with respect to the

case that involved, um, I believe, uh, his daughter at the time. Um, upon review of

the case and like I said, this is just one example. Um, it involved two female

children alleging being molested by their mothers live in boyfriend, um, on in the

west valley on Glendale Avenue. Upon checking the, uh, status of the case, um, I,

I located one clearance report, um, that made the case looked at as inactive, uh,

but also showed that it reassigned it to Detective Edgar, while another clearance

sheet that was located that the case said it was pending in 2006. The first clearance

report was in 2008 showing inactive. Once I located the case file, um, which was

stored in, uh, Detective Edgars office at the time who actually took Detective

Harralas office, um, so it was the same office, um, I, I examined the case further

and found that, uh, in, in my opinion, uh, that uh, there mere-, uh, the follow up

needed was merely required, uh, the suspect and a possible witness to be

contacted and interviewed. In this case the, um, suspect and a possible witness

were found to both be deaf or some, some indication of being deaf and there was

never what I could see in the case file an attempt to try to interview them or, uh,

close out the case pretty much.

Um, I reopened the case and assigned it to Detective Edgar and we eventually, uh,

went out to the residence, contacted the deaf subject. I had to get actually a, a PO

to do an interview with a sign language, certified sign language interpreter and

charges were filed with the County Attorneys Office. Well, we requested the

charges with the County Attorneys Office for ending up being for two counts of


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child molest in 08 when the case occurred in 04.

LICKING: And just for the sake of the transcript, Im just gonna read this number at the top

and tell me if thats right. Its, uh, it would be Incident 04-178232?

LUGO: Thats correct.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: So go ahead, Im sorry, did you have?

LICKING: Um, so basically since you became the supervisor of SVU, you started getting

these types of, um, complaints from different victims and what not. And after a

certain amount of time, you understood that at least, and I dont wanna put any

words in your mouth, but something made you feel as if you know the cases either

werent being handled properly or they had been cleared inappropriately, is that

right?

LUGO: Well, um, based on, on these incidents and it involves yes, calls from victims,

complainants. Theres actually one, um, I received a DPS result, uh, a DPS report,

um, uh, lets see a letter we got through the chain of command on, on one. Um,

Chief Knight directly asked me out of, out of sort of a surprise to look at another

one. Dont know how he was brought up to speed on that one. Thats telephone

contact. And one, I think, was a child help doctor, um, actually called, uh,

reference it. And that started, correct to raise red flags to me.

Um, originally at the time okay, well, um, maybe there wasnt a, a belief that they

were cleared inappropriately but there was a belief that obviously the service being

provided to these to the victims of these crimes there was a, uh, what I felt, uh,

just, uh, was not appropriate. They were not being provided with any type of, if


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you wanna call it, service, um, uh, that their case received, the appropriate

attention, attention that needed to, to receive.

Um, originally I, I did not come to any conclusions only mere speculation on why

that would be, whether that was too many cases to work, cases not being

appropriately investigated to not being appropriately documented, uh, etcetera.

LICKING: Okay. And so from then.

LUGO: Can I shut this off?

LICKING: Yeah, absolutely.

LUGO: (Unintel 18:35) vibrating now.

LICKING: Um, so from the time that you started to see that there was you know more than

one issue when it had come to past cases what did, what did you do then?

LUGO: Okay, Im sorry, can you,

LICKING: Oh, yeah.

LUGO: can you say that again?

LICKING: Uh, from the time you started to document this, uh, and what not, um, you said

Jim Schoeninger at least initially was your supervisor at that time. Did you notify

him to?

LUGO: Yes.


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LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: I spoke with, uh, Lieutenant Schoeninger and, like I said, that was only I wanna

say for a month or less that he was my supervisor. I remember I recall having an

actual conversation with him that says that where I said I, somethin just doesnt

feel right, something and I, I dont know what it really is but it appears this way. I

dont know if thats actually the case but it appears this way, um, and, uh, I didnt

believe that anything came of that, uh, conversation but I could be wrong. He was

then, uh, transferred out and Lieutenant Riddle was transferred in, uh, to be my,

uh, Lieutenant or my supervisor.

LICKING: Yeah, basically, thats, uh, Kevin Riddle, right?

LUGO: Thats correct.

LICKING: Um, from that point, uh, that Lieutenant Riddle became your supervisor what did

you all do at that point?

LUGO: Well, um, upon getting all of these and starting to try to grasp a better picture, um,

this, uh, for instance, this one was in April; this one was is May. Uh, here was one

in June. Um, the issue that came up with, let me find my other notes at a later time.

(Pause) Okay, so the issue that came up and was, uh, first of all trying to figure out

what cases every Detective had. Um, I explained to Lieutenant Riddle my concerns

and I think after he reviewed some of the information, um, and we spoke, uh, that

he started to have the same concerns, um, with regard to something doesnt seem

right, something doesnt feel right. Um, I cant speak for him, of course.

But the first order of business was to generate a case log system for all of the

Detectives that were assigned for all of the open cases that they had.


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LICKING: So at least would it be fair to say up until this point, it didnt appear that they had,

uh, a workable case log system in SVU?

LUGO: Well, by investigate or if you wanna say investigate it but looking into the

complaints, um, and reviewing cases as theyre still coming in, as theyre clearing

cases, um, RMS which appeared to be used to a certain extent for the Special

Victims Unit, um, did not seem to be accurate, uh, picture of what cases or how

cases were being cleared for I dont know what reason. Um, to be it did not

appear that there was any standard case log system for the Detectives or that they

what they were using.

LICKING: Um hum.

LUGO: And what makes me say that is when you would try to ask about a case, um, it

would either they would not necessarily know what your case youre talking

about. They would not have a form or a computer spreadsheet that they could just

pop up and go oh, yeah, I got that case assigned to me here. Um, this is what

happened. And coming from the Jail Crimes Unit and having just, uh, made sure

and we set up and used a little bit different of a system, uh, there, um, there, there,

like I said, were red flags that started to pop up.

To answer your question, I do not, I did not appear to me that they had, um, any

type of standardized case log system. A couple of the Detectives I do recall seeing

binders, a binder or so in their office that looked like it was maybe a handwritten

log at some point, but um, I could not say with any certainty that they, uh, used

them.

LICKING: So at least when you took over from Sergeant Seagraves you know you werent

briefed on well, this is, this is where you can go in the computer to look up all the

active cases? Did anybody, I mean did you get that type of a transition briefing?


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LUGO: Um, I know she gave me a little bit of a, a briefing and she gave me, uh, severalpiles of, of different things cause you get all this other, uh, paperwork and training

material. Um, I do not recall, uh, Sergeant Seagraves saying heres where you can

go. Um, could she have said that? Yes, but I dont think there was any it was a

computer, computer, uh, computer version. Um, and I do, try to think, I do recall

like I said seeing in the Detectives office, uh, some type of binder and I do recall

seeing one in the office that I took over for from, uh, Lieutenant Seagraves.

LICKING: Um hum.

LUGO: I dont know. I think that that binder was subsequently turned over to Lieutenant

Tucker but I dont know what happened to it, uh, or what actual information was

on there. I remember there being a form with lines filled out, handwritten. And but

I did not find any spot where there was a (pause) whats the, the term would be a

consistent pattern of, um,

LICKING: Case tracking?

LUGO: correct.

LICKING: Um, so you and Lieutenant Riddle decided to go ahead and at least try to put

together some type of case tracking for your guys?

LUGO: Yes. The first order of business was to try to, um, understand what cases they had

and create a system of a paperwork flow that, um, where and how cases would be,

uh, how they would start--theyd come into the unit; how they would get assigned

and how the documentation would go everywhere it needs to go and the review

process. Uh, there was nothing, of course, written in paper like that. Um, we

generated thatmyself, uh, with the assistance of Lieutenant Riddleand we also


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worked on initially trying to find all open cases that they actively were working

and get an idea of, of what they had, uh, Detective wise, how many case wereassigned to the unit, um, and such. And I wanna say another thing that brought

that up was the MFR stats was the idea that.

LICKING: And for the sake of the transcript thats the Managing for Results?

LUGO: Correct, the monthly stats that Detectives would fill out, which was I dont think I

have a form in any of this here today, but it was pretty much the standard form.

They show how many new cases assigned, how many they cleared each way and

what their ending case load was. So there were issues of going well, wait a minute,

how do we get to that number and wheres the stuff that backs up those numbers,

um, to show how many cases they had?

LICKING: Okay. Um, from that point, um, when you started working with Kevin Riddle on

that where did, where did you all go from there?

LUGO: Well, uh, as I, uh, have noted here in my well, at the time a working, uh, sort of

log so to speak, um, as of June 1st, 20- 2008, um, we, uh, well, not to get off topic,

but another issue was we could not locate a, a, any type of division file, uh, located

at, uh, for Sex Crimes cases.

LICKING: So the Division, themselves had a copy of each case that came in?

LUGO: Well, or each case that was already cleared. There was no centralized division file.

What, uh, I locate- I determined and with the Detectives feedback gave feed me

was each Detective sort of just kept their own file cabinets of cases that were

cleared, closed, whatever and they were in their offices or some other location

somewhere in their office. Um, so there wasnt a centralized division file, which

raised a red flag as well, um, coming from Jail Crimes and Fire Investigations


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where thats what we created so once a case was closed or cleared it went in there

so anybody trying to, in addition to going to Records, but anybody at the Divisiontrying to go hey, what? They could go right to one location, pull out a DR, um,

and go from there.

So the first order of business was creating a Division file and from June 1st, 2008,

um, weve created that Division file and located it actually in, uh, my office at the

time. And any case that we worked or that was cleared after June 1st, 2008 was

then filed in there as a Division file copy. Um, and at the same time simultaneously

I requested from all of the Detectives, um, to confirm a list of cases that they were

actively or assigned they were, they were working.

Now I wanna say it was, it was between June and July. I wanna say theres a,

theres a date either at the end of June or the beginning of July that from that point

on, um, I got an accurate list from all of the Detectives and I was able to bring

RMS up to speed on all the new cases on what they were assigned. And I, myself,

created a spreadsheet, um, that had a basically an entire case log for all of Sex

Crimes. Um, I started off the spreadsheet. I can see if I had a copy of it to show

you.

LICKING: And Im assuming that that would show not, not only the cases assigned but which

Detective a case has been has assigned to?

LUGO: Correct. I started off the, the (sigh) I wanna say I, uh, had the idea in, in mind,

LICKING: (Unintel 29:36)

LUGO: uh, when I started it off that it was going to be a temporary thing till we figured

out a, a better idea, um, and so I had it all on one spreadsheet every Detective. It

was a little bit small but I used this during one of the meetings I had with all the


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Detectives, but its pretty much the DR number, the date, the type of crime,

location. I created this whole master spreadsheet so, of course, it listed theDetective here. This was then matched with what they had on their records and

matched with what RMS had for cases that were actively being worked. This was

eventually because it got so long and cumbersome, I actually took each Detective,

created a tab at the bottom so you could go on this master form and I could tab on

the bottom or I could search the entire workbook, so to speak, uh, electronic

workbook for DR number, a name, location, etcetera. And also we had notes and I

had all the Detectives give me a note on, uh, what they still needed to do.

LICKING: Okay, so the notes would show at least a, a snap shot of where the case was

currently?

LUGO: Correct, like, uh, needs to contact victim, uh, awaiting DPS results, something of

that nature. And I had a, uh, I required them to have a status, uh, update to me

every within every 30 days. So if I didnt get a supplement or I didnt get like the

case wasnt submitted to the County Attorney, um, I required them at the end of

every month or every 30 day period to at least give me a heads up. Hey, I got

these three cases and this is what were still waiting on them just to update what,

uh, whats going on. They could do that email, verbally. If they came in and said

hey, this is what I got and I would change it, change the date.

So this was generated to basically from that point forward to say okay, now were

going to make sure we have everything that were working, everything that we get

assigned, everything that gets cleared logged somewhere thats thats accurate.

And then I worked to have RMS mirror this information so that every case we

were getting was entered into RMS. If it was assigned to that Detective, it was

assigned in RMS system.

LICKING: So if Lieutenant Riddle had a question at that point once this is generated, he


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could just go right to that. If say if one of the Chiefs called him about a case, he

could just go to the computer, pull this up and say at least the latest note on thisparticular case its assigned to this Detective and this needs to be done. Would

that, would that be fair?

LUGO: In, in a perfect world he could do that. Um, this was not saved on the network

drive at the time, so he would not have access to that. Um.

LICKING: But at least if he went to you, youd be able to pull it up and?

LUGO: Correct.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: Correct, I could pull it right up. I got a phone call. Let me look at, I could look it

up. I could look it right up and we would have at least an idea and it would have a

date that they gave me that last status.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: And I wanna say this was, I did this on a, a monthly basis with the stats just like I

used to do in Jail Crimes. And Im, Im going off my memory here,...

LICKING:

LUGO: um, was the fact, um, at the end of every month I would give them a list from

RMS that shows hey, this is all the cases that you have. Make sure these are the

ones you have. You can get new ones that maybe we missed somewhere and give

me a little bit of a. Usually they would just even write it on that RMS printout just

in the margin and then I would copy it over into this stuff and reset it.


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Now that slowly got replaced by giving them the hard copy every month with onceI got, uh, this for each Detective, uh, on a tab I know I believe I would print up

their, print up their open cases and give that to them or email it to them or

somehow have them look, uh, to make sure. I believe thats how I did it. I might

have still done the RMS from that point forward but.

LICKING: Um, and before we go too far, what I was if I could just make kind of a just real

quick list. When, when you first got there, um, you mentioned that there didnt

seem to be any case management system that was in place. Um, that would be one

of the issues that, uh, so besides the case management, no case management

system, if we could just make a quick list of what the kind of the shortcomings that

you saw that you knew at that point.

LUGO: Okay. Um, I dont wanna say absolutely no case management system. Um, I would

wanna say, in my opinion, of not a very consistent one, um, or a very, um, (pause)

lack of a better term not, uh, standardized.

LICKING: Not in effect? Okay.

LUGO: Um, whereas it was if you tried to find out what was going on a case, you sort of

had to sometimes ask around the Detectives, hey, do you remember a case with

this lady at this location? And oh, no, I think that was this Detectives case. So

then you had to go find them and go whats goin on? Oh, yes, I have that case and

then they may or may not be able to find the documentation but they may not have

to if they go yeah, it was all done and cleared and, and this is what happened and

they would tell you verbally. Uh, to me that was not a, uh, uh, very efficient or

effective manner.

Um, in addition I actually reviewed the Policy and procedure that list the


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responsibilities when this started to, uh, create a, an onset of the responsibilities

and duties of a Detective Supervisor and its Detective Unit. And one of the thingsand thats what made me generate this spreadsheet was it says that the and Im

going off memory, um, of the Policy. It says that, uh, basically the Detective

Supervisor is required to have some type of case control or case logging system

where they have this information, um, suspects name, location, all that kind of

stuff. Um, and thats what made me sort of generate most of these columns on

this, um, because some of this stuff is not captured very well or entered very

accurately into the R- RMS system that was used intermittently.

LICKING: And at least at that point if you got a call from somebody and all they had was

either, uh, victim name or only a location, at least you could use that as search

criteria for your spreadsheet to try to pull up whos involved.

LUGO: Correct. The Detective name, yeah, any of that stuff I could them pull up and see

whats going on. I could answer their question. I could see when it was assigned to

that Detective, so if it was just assigned today and theyre calling and going well,

why hasnt anybody done anything with this? This also had, of course, a priority

level that I would give it, uh, in accordance with the, uh, Policy on case

management.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: Uh, so that I could go oh, okay, its a and I forget cause I havent been in a

Detective Unit for a while what P3 as opposed to P5 is.

LICKING: Right.

LUGO: But I could say at the time oh, its a P. That means okay, that would give the

Detective an idea of which ones are higher priority from the standard Policy, which


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is always just you know can always be adapted, um, the priority level but do have

an active, violent defender running around living with a kid that theyre molestingas opposed to something happened six years ago and Im just reporting it now. It

happened when I was a kid and everybody moved and Im now an adult and I

wanna report it

LICKING: True.

LUGO: Thats a little bit lower on the,

LICKING: Sure.

LUGO: on the scope. So I could then answer a lot of those questions and if you wanna

say put out those fires of those complaints and, um, also see which ones were

maybe not getting the attention they needed to and try to find what resources we

could to, to get those cases worked or get the Detective what they need to get

them done.

LICKING: Alright. Um, so if we were to go through this, um, obviously case management not

being at least in your opinion consistent or standardized. Uh, no written

responsibilities for the assigned Detectives that were there. Um, uh, what else did,

did you see as an issue when you, when you first came in there?

LUGO: Um, there was no, tryin to think of the term what its called now, (pause)

Operations Manual.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: Um, there was actually an Operations Manual that we located for the Sex Crimes

Notification Unit, uh, but there was no standardized Operation Manual. Um, and I


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even I met and spoke with during the onset of this I went over and spoke. We used

to work, I used to work with them a lot in Jail Crimes the Homicide guys, theHomicide Sergeants and check to see how they do business to make sure we

werent totally off and I wasnt totally off in left field goin, uh, trying to make a, a

mountain out of something that didnt need to be worried about or was being

handled correctly. And based on the information they provided to me, it only

increased my concerns, um, on how they do business and track their cases and,

um, have an Operations Manual when you come in there that spells out what

everybodys responsibilities are and spells out the paperwork flow.

LICKING: Um, no, no manual?

LUGO: No centralized file. I dont know if that and I dont know if that, I know it says

that they have to be kept. In the Policy it says that they have to the Division has to

keep it for so, so much lon- such a length of time, six months or something, maybe

a year. I forget what it says. Um, each Division has to keep a copy of their,

basically, their Division files for the cases for the past time. So Im, Im sorry, go

ahead.

LICKING: Thats okay. And we wont go into like what the fixes are at this point, but um, so

besides no centralized Division file, um, was there anything else that, uh, you or

Lieutenant Riddle had noticed was?

LUGO: Well, upon looking at those then, um, and these complaints then we started to also

see that maybe the improper, um, clearance type was utilized or sometimes entered

into the system, uh, into the RMS system. So a, a clearance sheet might say

exceptionally cleared but yet in RMS it said something else.

LICKING: Okay. So for some reason there would be a discrepancy between what the

physical


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LUGO: Discrepancy.

LICKING: paperwork said versus what was in RMS?

LUGO: And then also you question which clearance should it really actually be and, um,

there were, in my opinion, uh, as a Detective and also as a Detective Supervisor,

Supervisor before there were, um, what I felt were using the wrong clearance was

utilized or a case was cleared when it probably shouldnt have been cleared, should

have still been open and worked.

LICKING: Okay. So, and again, I dont wanna put words in your mouth but, um, are you

sayin that there was at least more than one instance where a case may have been

cleared when it was still active investigation could have been done on it?

LUGO: Um, yes. Yeah, that that started to arise. And that is to give you just to try to keep

the timeline, um, June 19th of 2008 so this is after the Division file was I think I

said June 1st is when we created a Ju-, uh, Division file. (Pause)

LICKING: And before we get off track but, um, based on that last concern was when you all

start goin through I guess the clearance letters and what not at least is my

understanding when I looked through the SVU audit that you all were able to find

you know several of those, uh, cases that had been cleared, uh, possibly

erroneously that were reopened. Um, a lotta times theres just a, just a number

figure but it doesnt really go into depth as to which case or which Detective

would have been assigned to each case.

LUGO: Um hum.

LICKING: And, um, but then theres other volumes that go and kind of be set out like this


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where it would maybe be all Detective Edgars or you know whatever the name

was...

LUGO: Um hum.

LICKING: assigned and it would go through and show per Detective you know which

cases you know each case that at least at that point had been assigned and then

what the clearance was or at least what the, the last update to each case was. Did

you guys actually, um, generate any type of a list per Detective that showed like

say erroneous

LUGO: Okay, well, yes.

LICKING: clearances?

LUGO: So far in the timeline we have, this we havent even started the audit to give you

an idea.

LICKING: Oh, okay.

LUGO: But yes, I do have, um, this is just the initial. This is sort of giving the, the initial,

um, hey, uh, we might need to do something or something might need to be done.

But it was first, um, I wanna say was the idea was lets create a procedure. Lets

put it in place so at least we have a starting point from this point forward we can

move in the, in the direction we think and everybody at the time command staff

wise thought was the way to go, uh, myself, Lieutenant Riddle, um, Lieutenant

Burden also assisted, uh, significantly and Captain Babb and even Captain Whitney

cause they were back and forth and, um, when Captain Babb came over and they

split up the Division of GID.


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So it was fix, lets put our procedure in place. Lets get what we have open right

now lets so we have a procedure for all of the new cases that are still coming inand well move in that direction. Then we started to dive into the audit and go

well, all the cases prior lets start to review. We make sure these people got the

cases got worked correctly.

To answer your question a little bit better yes, there is, um, and I know that, uh,

this is a little bit hard to sort of read and understand. But this was another of the

audit a master spreadsheet which these pages sort of lay this way, its a lot easier

to look on the computer. But this lists every case we went over. This lists who

reviewed it.

LICKING: And (unintel 44:53).

LUGO: Go ahead.

LICKING: or, or go but I just wanna sure I understand what we were talkin about before.

You said at least up until this point when you started putting the new procedures

in place that was supposed to have been so that anything that was either currently

assigned or assigned from that point on got worked correctly and then,

LUGO: Got worked.

LICKING: and then the audit that you put the focus on was, um, past or cleared cases?

LUGO: Correct.

LICKING: Okay, alright.

LUGO: Cases prior to that point.


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LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: Um, so um, yes, from this say it was from June I wanna say 1st is what I said

forward everything could be documented, could be, um, placed in a Division file,

the copies could get to Records. We could track, uh, how many went to the

County Attorney, what the updates are at the County Attorney. We could basically

verify all that stuff and any entries made into RMS were then also correct,

accurate. I dont wanna say correct but accurate, um, to, to, uh, uh, the

information we had. And on top of that I also kept the Excel spreadsheet, which I

already showed you to mirror RMS to have also another searching capability for

stuff moving forward

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: from that June 1st, uh, launching. Um, we then held, of course, uh, during there

were several meetings held but I just had the figure to go over our issues, so to

speak. (Pause) There were several meetings held and thats where I was getting

some of this information. This one was June 19 th on basically our administrative

issues, paperwork flow, Division file, updates on deadlines, report tracking, um,

all, all that kind of stuff. And at this time it appears I think as of June 19 th, I

actually made that, um, spreadsheet that I show for each Detective on the W: drive

so they had access to it.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: So I would add cases on there, um, and they could view it. I think I locked them

from actually making any changes; um, I believe I did that. So they could go in

there and view it at any time and see what cases they needed to give me an update

on, what cases they had. That was sort of their case log. And it was my decision to


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lock it and work it that way so I sort of maintained their case log for them. Uh, a

lot of there was a lot of, um, unhappy people, so to speak, at this time andconstantly complaining that thats only adding to their work load having to deal

with a case log and give updates and all that kind of stuff. So I took it upon myself

to say okay, well, Ill do your case log for you. Its there available. You can just

focus on working your cases and you can see and you can change because

nothings gonna really change on that case log without it really coming across my

desk to be reviewed or a supervisors desk to be reviewed and then I would

change the update all that.

So those issues were all brought up at this meeting, including the issues that we

already stated. Um, the paperwork flow, um, which, uh, was I think more of just

an administrative flow there at the District, uh, making sure copies were going to

Records, uh, making sure, uh, yeah, who had the responsibility of copying it, what

the administrative changes were. Um, (pause) monthly stat form thats completed

and then, uh, another issue was the supplemental reports and clearance reports that

started to, to arise at this point. And when I say supplemental or clearance reports,

it was like weve already said, it appeared reviewing some of those cases and or

cases that Detectives were clearing and theyre giving to me that they were missing

supplements. Um, they would turn in a clearance sheet with some stuff. They

would try to basically write their well, that was determined later. They were so

leave that out there.

But, um, just every or not every Detective but several Detectives were using their

own forms, nothing was standardized as in supplemental format, as in clearance

sheet format and the clearance sheet guidelines. So, um, like we said, cases being

cleared inappropriately or what I felt were not correct, of course, we got this

copied out of the Policy and Procedure for how you can clear cases in accordance

with our Policy.


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So at this meeting we go over all.

LICKING: And that was part of the Policy you know that you made for your Unit?

LUGO: Well, we did not make an actual official Office Manual. This was going in that

direction. Um, it was that was one of the many things to do on the to do list of, of

the phases before I was, um, abruptly just transferred out. Um, but um, I created a,

we created the start of a, um, Ops Manual with the paperwork flow that sort of

gives an idea of responsibility. This is just general stuff of how to work a case and

where

LICKING: Um hum.

LUGO: when the case is worked where the copies go, um, to also avoid being on a

missing DR list or anything of that nature because that issue I recall did also come

up. And there were also several cases that came up and which were, if you wanna

call, special projects. So they came from a Chief. They came from Pre-

employment, something of that nature and I was unable to find really any tracking,

uh, system for those because these were a lot of these cases where given to the

Detective to work and they didnt have a DR number yet. So this procedure also

put into place well, were gonna generate DR number. Youre gonna call, get a

DR number and yes, youre gonna be responsible for writing the official face sheet.

But at least that then gives us a tracking of, uh, special projects or special cases

that are not, uh, dont just come in from routine patrol activity.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: So this was in June of 2008, so we sort of June 19th is when we had this meeting

and July 1, I wanna say is when this the paperwork flow and the procedures that

we were going to work from that point forward were finalized and put into place


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and said this is what we, we were gonna do. The Detectives were given a option to

give feedback on this, on this procedure, um, and if I remember correctly, notreally any of them gave any official feedback and so we put it into effect, myself

and Lieutenant Riddle, put it into effect, uh, July 1 of 2008 for all new cases

moving forward.

LICKING: Okay. And, um, cause you know like we would talk about some of the issues that

you had, some of the things you guys did to correct those and, and what, what you

implemented, even though you may not officially called it an Ops Plan, I guess just

from being an outsider, I might look at that and say and even though it might not

have that official title, at least it shows from the beginning to the end of a case

what each Detective should do. I guess I would say that is at least similar to an

Ops Plan. Would you agree with that?

LUGO: I would agree with that, um, and this does and, and this meeting and this, and this

flow and the procedures we were trying to put into place, um, also of course, you

had, uh, would have applied to just, uh, communication flow, um, callout, uh, uh,

activities like how we were going to process and deal with callouts. Um, Im not

going to say that the procedure they were using before was not correct, um, for

callout procedures and just the way that the unit ran. Um, its a completely

different style than, than I like to have or like to work and that I think is efficient

as a, as a supervisor, um, rather than a more of a, I know some other supervising,

uh, supervisor styles are if you wanna say hands off a lot more hands off and just,

just go take care of it. And everybody sort of just, uh, dont like to use the term

but just wings it and then they still might get the job done just as well in, in the

long run. I, I dont, I dont know that but it certainly wasnt anything set in paper

or a standardized procedure that I saw, um, and thats why we put this into place,

if you wanna call it. Yeah, uh, the starting of an Ops Plan, I think, uh, Ops- Ops

Manual would, would be the way to go I think.


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LICKING: Um, okay, so from that point, um, where did you guys decide to go from there?

LUGO: Well, once this was finalized and put into place, um, we started to then go on to,

um, (pause) looking at some of the prior cases. Now the first one, the first section

of cases that we started to look into, um, were the, gone by their (pause). The first

section were the inactive cases, um, that we were first going to dive into. Now

how did we identify the inactive cases? Um, by basically printing up the RMS list

of all the cases and I dont remember why we picked the date, but the date that

was selected or I think I might have chosen the date based on the complaints and

the other issues that we saw. We went back to January 1st, 2005 is all the further

we went back. So that would have been the last at the time almost three years.

So the way that that went down was I printed up the RMS records. Let me take

just one step back here. Um, during the course of getting to this point and seeing

the inaccuracies in the RMS, um, and not having a paperwork flow one of the

other issues that came up, um, were that administrative staff were changing

information in RMS at the request of Detectives, where Detectives would just give

their report right to them. It would cut the supervisor out, etcetera. So, um, a

notice was put out, uh, and I spoke with or I emailed, didnt speak with. I think I

did actually speak with him after the email, Lieutenant Ed Moore, who was the

supervisor of the administrative staff at the time and, uh, to basically halt them

from changing anything so that we could get an accurate picture. So that was put

out from that point forward and then once we had the, uh, July 1 we had the

procedure in place. Then everybody was brought up to speed administrative staff

alike so that everything would be, we would get an accurate picture of inactive

cases or other cases that were looking at because if you look at it inactive today

and then when three weeks later it got changed somehow and we didnt change it,

you go well, then slowly youre duplicating work and youre not being, uh, youre

starting to run in circles.


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So I started with printing up all the RMS records for every one of the Detectives

assigned there. Now, um, uh, disposition type and Im goin I, I dont recall causeits been a while, like I said, since Ive worked on the Detective side and have the I

dont have these memorized all the time as well. But I printed up this is just

basically a, a work with cases by serial number. Its all the ones that would have

been assigned were cleared by this particular Detective. In this case this form

shows Rojas. And then I went through and you look at the Disposition number and

I highlighted, for instance, green I wanna say were the open ones. The orange was

the x-cleared and I think the pink was inactive but it would match this Disposition

code here. But by going through, maybe pink was submitted to County Attorney.

Anyway, by going through I was able to get all of the DR numbers or case

numbers that were assigned to each Detective and closed inactive going back to

January 1st, 2005. That list was then transposed on to a form such as this, uh, was

just a spreadsheet that I made up as well and some of these are duplicate copies

and was, uh, given to each Detective. And I requested because, you have to

understand, prior to this time we had no Division file. I requested them provide the

entire case file or any documentation they had whatsoever on this list of cases. So

that was given to each Detective and these were just inactive cases that were

shown inactive at the time. The idea was were going to, myself or somebody is

going to just skim through them, read through some of them and just make sure

that okay, thats.

LICKING: So Im assuming you kind of did, uh, uh, say if Rojas had well just say 100

cases

LUGO: Um hum.

LICKING: you might not necessarily to look through all 100 Im assuming, but you would

at least take a good number of each Detectives cases or did you actually go


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through?

LUGO: No, every one

(File two)

LUGO: Every single one. Now once the numbers started to pile up because starting with

the inactive, um, red flags continued to be raised. Um, several of these cases that

were clearly inactive according to, to just say Rojas and I know it happened in a

couple different Detectives but they were unable to provide the documentation or

supporting documentation. Or they were able to provide merely a clearance sheet.

Um, several of them then came up, uh, cases came up and there was a concern that

they the Detectives informed they had nothing on the case or its all at Records,

something of that nature. So simultaneously while the Detectives were working on

pulling their inactive cases, which they were all given deadlines and they were all,

I dont wanna say it was all at the exact same time but maybe two or three

Detectives this week or, or what, um, I also had, uh, we had some help from some

Posse members. And the Posse members took the same list, went down to Records

and copied everything that Records had on those cases. They then brought that

back and, um, then that sort of was our where we were going to start from for our

audit procedure.

So inactives were generated and I dont know if I have an exact number total. I do

in here somewhere, Im sure of it. When we were done with every Detective just

identifying inactives and basically and I had boxes set up or stacks or whatever,

um, let me see if I can give you a ballpark.

LICKING: Yeah, I think I did see in Riddles, um, copy of his case for his SVU audit he did

have a number there and I wanna say it was you know well over a hundred cases

that you know that had been inactivated but really required some, some work.

And, I guess, even a few of those still actually belonged to like the city of El


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Mirage but.

LUGO: Um hum.

LICKING: Um.

LUGO: Well, and and then during that time and during even, uh, and like I said, were just

at the inactive stage but during that time yes, I would agree and I recall seeing

cases popping up that say yeah, they, they actually were an El Mirage case that

was inactive that appeared not to have been sent back to El Mirage so it was

assumed that maybe it was closed or, or, or solved. But here you go, yeah, give

just give me a ballpark of a number, um, uh, 166, uh, inactive cases sort of was a

ballpark number, um, that we came up with from all of the Detectives. Um, and I

wanna say (pause) yes, so um, 166 inactive cases, I believe, is a ballpark number.

Um, of those let me walk you through what we then did with each case. Another

check list which (pause) Ill give you an idea.

Once that case was received, um, and of course, throughout this time, um,

Lieutenant Riddles brought up to speed on a daily if not more frequently than that

basis. He was out for some time. Uh, I think he had a medical issue for a week or

two weeks or maybe longer. Um, Lieutenant Burden was our acting Lieutenant as

well, who was also working down there and he was brought up to speed. Both of

them assisted with doing this procedure as well as the Posse members and, of

course, then Captain Penny Babb was also pretty much brought up to speed almost

on a I wanna say on a daily basis but maybe Im sure theres days that that we

missed here or there.

Inactive cases and were all of the, the case file was given from the Detective.

From that point I generated a, a basically a let me (pause). There was a couple

different forms here to help keep track of these. But what was done was, um, once


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the number started to clear and once just an initial look by me over, um, several

and by Lieutenant Riddle and by Lieutenant Burden af- after looking at several ofthem going well, this is gonna require us to go through every one, um, the idea

was were going to get just about every other supervisor in GID involved to help

review these cases. Prior to doing that case file is received of inactive from all the

Detectives. Theyre checked off the list. Um, my Posse member goes and gets

copies from Records. Made up a form and every, for instance, it shows complete

copy obtained from Records. That was completed form for this, one of these forms

was made up for every one of them. A file folder was made up for every case. And

myself and I know that, uh, Lieutenant Burden helped some. Dont think the Posse

member helped on this, uh, aspect but, uh, I think Riddle helped on some of this

and I think another Sergeant, uh, Batiste, I think also helped at some point on

some of this. We went through page by page of every, uh, page of the- these cases

to compare them to Records. So you have the Records copy here and what they

gave to make sure everything in Records mirrored what we had and vice versa.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: So after going through all that paper that was completed now we had an active

file. If there were stuff that wasnt at Records, supplements, etcetera they were

then copied and sent to Records so that we matched Records and Records

matched with what we had at our Division file minus, um, you know like a

working DVD or something of that nature that wouldnt go to Records.

Then, um, we also had Property pull every Property invoice for all of these cases.

Um, that was also, uh, marked whether we obtained one or not cause there were

several cases of course no Property was ever impounded, um, and rightly so.

There was no, no evidence, no physical evidence to impound so that was marked if

there was actually invoice collected or if Property came back and told us we never


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took anything or we never had anything.

LICKING: Um, when it came to cause obviously this took quite a while for you guys to go

through each of these cases and verify with Records and what not. Um, I know

were kind of pushing an hour already. We kinda like to kinda take a break every

about an hour but, um, you know when we come back, one of the things Im

hopin that we might be able to do is just if, if I could get, um, kind of a clear

picture of at least your understanding of each of the Detectives, um, you know

which ones seemed to be you know following what they should do as, as a case

Detective and which ones werent. Uh, maybe if we can kinda look at that. Im not

sure if youve got that in here but, um, like I said for the time being we do you

mind taking a break for a minute?

LUGO: No.

LICKING: Okay. Um, did you need more water or anything?

LUGO: Um, some more water would be appreciated, yes.

LICKING: Okay, right, Ill get that. Um.

MORRISON: Bathroom?

LICKING: Yeah.

MORRISON: Need to use the bathroom or anything?

LUGO: Im good right now.

LICKING: Okay. Um, time out is about, uh, 1:15. Um, and then youre welcome to get up


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and walk around if youd like and Ill get you some water.

LUGO: Okay.

(Pause)

LICKING: Alright, (unintel 9:04).

LUGO: Thank you.

LICKING: Let me, uh, just so youre aware Ill be runnin down just to chat with Lieutenant

to see if theres anything else he wants me to kinda get into and Ill be, Ill be right

back so.

LUGO: Okay.

LICKING: Go ahead and make yourself at home.

(Long pause)

LICKING: Alright, time back in is about, uh, about 1:26. Um, Greg, for the sake of the

transcript, did anybody talk to you about the case during the break?

LUGO: No.

LICKING: Okay. Um, spill that. What we were hopin to do and I, like I said, I know this is

such a, an exhausting case just in the stuff that youve done already but, um, if we

were to back track you know quite a bit, can you tell me what, um, this Unit

supervisory system that, um, Sergeant Seagraves had in place would you be able to

identify that or would you only be guessing at this point or do you have a good


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idea of how things operated before you got there?

LUGO: Um, I that would be mere speculation I think on my part, um, with regard to just,

uh, hearsay from the, the different Detectives saying we didnt do it this way,

etcetera, etcetera. Uh.

LICKING: When you got there, um, say when, when you first started getting these complaints

about different cases that you shared earlier, um, at any time do you ever

remember callin Kim up and just sayin hey, I got a question about this or?

LUGO: No. Um, I remember, I remember having contact with her on one or two instances.

Um, I think it was, uh, over email.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: Um, I dont think it has anything to do with I think I have a form, um. I think one

of them was a, um, issue at District IV, cause thats where she was then assigned

to cause she got promoted and moved to IV. There was a question or there was a

case that District IV wanted us to work or something like that. One of the emails

in the conversation was reference that. I wanna say I think there was another email

having to do with one of the a case that came up that we were unsure about or,

um, uh, Im tryin to think of the, the circumstances of that.

LICKING: Yeah.

LUGO: I dont recall there being a specific telephone conversation.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: There might have been one but.


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LICKING: But those, those contacts to, to at least to the best of your recollection, I know itsbeen a long time. They didnt really have anything to do with the system she had in

place before you got there, nothin like that?

LUGO: Correct. It was nothing to the effect of

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: what case management did you have? Uh, you know, uh, where is your case

log? Thats correct. There was never a conversation. Um.

LICKING: At least from reading, um, all the information that weve read up to now it alludes

me to at least according to Sergeant Seagraves at the time that she had a like a log

book. Do you, do you recall that being how she tracked her cases?

LUGO: Like I said, I do recall seeing a binder, like I said earlier, um, there in her office.

What ended up happening to it, um, I dont recall. Um, my best recollection and

my best educated guess would be I think it was turned over to, uh, Lieutenant

Riddle or not, Im sorry, Lieutenant Tucker at the time, uh, because it was come

across, uh, in the in Sergeant at the time, Seagraves old office the office that then

I,

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: I occupied. Uh.

LICKING: Well, let me ask you this. Would it be fair to say that early as a new supervisor into

that Detective unit, you didnt really get any support from her?


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LUGO: I.

LICKING: You know I mean I guess if someone were to come in and replace me in IA now,

LUGO: Um hum.

LICKING: I, I guess I would just automatically assume that all of the cases that I have at

that point I would, I would turn over to that new person that came in and try to

explain to them you know kind of where I was at with each case and, and that type

of thing. Did, did you get that in that transition?

LUGO: What I recall of the transition, um, was um, I sat down with her I wanna say a

couple days, maybe a week prior to her leaving, um, and there was pretty much

heres this, heres this and, like I said, there was a stack of paper this and that and

verbally ran through just what all that stuff was. And pretty much that was pretty

much it. I dont ever recall it coming up or her informing me that hey, this is how I

track each case. Um, does that mean that it wasnt happening? I cant say. But I

dont remember that being a topic of the conversation. It was and Im going off a

guess. It was maybe less than a half an hour meeting, um, and um, I wanna say

then that was pretty much the end of any real, uh, contact, uh, reference the

transfer. And then when I got moved in there moved into her office that stuff was

still either laying on a desk or she gave me and I walked down to my office in Jail

Crimes and that was it.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: Um, other than an isolated like I said contact here, there on just a specific case or a

specific question,


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LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: uh, of that nature.

LICKING: Okay. Um, when we talk about the and the reason I bring this particular, uh,

Detectives name up, uh, Eric Harrala, uh, from what I understand you said he

had, uh, been replaced by, uh, Detective Edgar shortly before you got there. Is that

right? Okay.

LUGO: Correct. I wanna say it was yeah, very shortly before he came back to Jail Crimes,

cause he worked for me at Jail Crimes at one point, um, and he came back there.

I, I think it was a couple weeks maybe.

LICKING: Okay. Um, its my understanding at least from what weve read so far in, in prior

stuff that when he transferred out of, uh, the SVU, um, that he had taken with him,

uh, several pieces of case information with him and actually stored it in his garage.

Does that, uh, strike a bell with you (unintel 25:12)?

LUGO: That totally rings a bell, yes.

LICKING: Okay. Um, do you remember and I wasnt really ever able to find any

documentation to, to say exactly what those pieces of evidence were or if they

were like case notes or? Um, thats great if you could, um, and, and just, just so

youre aware, um, Im glad youve got all this documentation cause a lot of this

is, is new in addition to the 18 volumes that weve got back there. So, um, what,

uh, what have you got that that you can at least tell us and describe?

LUGO: Well, Im, Im tryin to go off and I, when I reviewed this stuff, of course, for for

today I reviewed most of the stuff yesterday. Um, I was trying to recall exactly

how it came to my attention that he had this, this i- these items, paperwork,


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etcetera. Um, and I was unable to find any notes or anything on how that came

about the specifics of that. How I became aware of that. I believe and Im goingoff my memory here it came about by either looking for information on a particular

case. Um, we were trying, trying to find supplements or somebody referred in the

case that Detective so and so did this on it that Harrala did this. And we were

trying to find that and so then contact was made between I made, eventually, made

contact with Detective Harrala. And I wanna say that was over the phone, um, and

he was in I think District VII at the time. And, um, that would have been I have

the date that I picked it up from him somewhere here. (Pause) Oh, prior to July

20th but Ill find that that date that I actually, uh, met him but.

LICKING: Sure, no problem. And like I and I understand youve got a bunch of information

here.

LUGO: But, um, I.

LICKING: But does it, do you actually detail what items you actually picked up from his

residence?

LUGO: Correct. Well.

LICKING: And Im assuming that its, Im correct in saying that you had, you had, somebody

had to go out to his residence to pick it up or?

LUGO: Well, um, how it sort of went down was and I got in contact with him. He made,

made mention that he had these items, paperwork or something he thought maybe

he had the item we were looking for. I dont recall exactly, like I said, the content

of that conversation; however, I told him that I need to get all that stuff. This was

now, of course, now were into July and after the inactive stuff and everything else

we start, um, uh, trying not to play any games with anybody anymore. The idea


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We need to get it with the case.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: So I do have a list of all of the stuff. And it goes into fairly detail, uh, by DR

number, of course. You know one CD marked original. Um, yeah, and we checked

to see if it was in.

LICKING: So some of this, at least in your opinion, would be you know vital evidence for

each case. Is that would it be fair to say?

LUGO: Uh, I think that would be extremely fair to say, yes.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: Um, especially the items, some of them if I remember, um, clearance sheet. I mean

its a copy for, uh, for supplements to Property Invoices. That could have just been

a copy. To me thats not very significant as opposed to, uh, you know three CDs

for this DR marked original, um, uh, uh, and they were not when we checked, they

were not in Property and Evidence.

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: So they werent like a working copy or an extra copy.

LICKING:

LUGO: And as reading my notes here now, too I think and I, uh, Im tryin to recall that

conversation I had with him at the Target. I think he in the box he bundled stuff

like said this is original and this is like duplicate copies or unknown. I forget how


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he had it because in my notes here I list, uh, in the bundle that he indicated to be

original copies, okay? So there was a you know that, of course, to me would bemore concerning than. And what that CD was I dont have. We didnt actually, I

didnt actually review the CD myself to see what the contents of were, but most

of them, of course, based on my experience, uh, Sex Crimes are either audio

recordings of interviews or some type of contact and or an actual interview. Um,

we used to, when we first started having the digital recording at GID, we only

could burn them to CDs like the interview rooms the actual video so you had for

each case if you had a four hour interview, you had, um, eight CDs

LICKING: Okay.

LUGO: until we switched over to DVDs

LICKING: Gotcha.

LUGO: so.

LICKING: And at least it looks Im gonna guess and say that all of those pieces of evidence

that Detective Rojas turned over to you they were linked with previous SVU cases

that were assigned to him, is that right?

LUGO: Um, well, I dont know if they were all assigned to him. Uh, I, I dont know that,

uh, information. I think I have a breakdown.

LICKING: Would it be fair to say that they were all SVU cases?

LUGO: Uh, I think it would be fair to say that. I think, uh, there might have been one or

two in there that maybe were a different area, Jail Crimes or something. But I

wanna say a majority of them were all and Im trying to, Im trying to think for a


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second on where.

LICKING: And let me just ask you this real quick. Do you know, um, I know that there was a

separate case that had been started on Detective Rojas at one point.

LUGO: Um hum.

LICKING: Um, which they actually had a separate IA case. Do you know if anything was

started against Detective Harrala for mismanaging property?

LUGO: Uh, I do not believe. Um, I know the information was brought up, of course to,

uh, Riddle, uh, Lieutenant Riddle and I remember explaining. Im pretty sure I

remember explaining it to Captain Penny Babb as well. And, um, I think they were

also, it was also brought up in one of the several meetings with, um, Chief Knight

and Chief Freeman that we had reference this whole ongoing, um, deal.

LICKING: At least to your knowledge, there wasnt a separate IA started?

LUGO: Correct. I was never instructed nor were was I aware of any separate IA number.

LICKING: At this point, you guys just wanted to, uh,

LUGO: That was.

LICKING: that was by the victims of the SVU cases you had and all that?

LUGO: Correct. And that basically through this entire, uh, process all the way through

even to when I got myself and Lieutenant Riddle went back there. In 09 we got

sent back there to go help tie up some loose ends on it. Um, the information that

was provided to the Detectives and that the marching order, so to speak, were um,


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lets just get it fixed. Okay, were not going to sit here and you know try to nit

pick everything. Lets just we need to get a procedure, get it and, like I said, it wasvery.

LICKING: And it started the ball rollin from here on makin sure we do things right.

LUGO: Correct. And that was repeated to all of the Detectives, uh, by me several times.

And I know that, uh, Captain Babb was, uh, also in support of that and she

brought that up, too. It was cause, like I said, everybody got on the defensive. It

was very, not a very pleasant place to be for a while, um, to work.

LICKING: Sure.

LUGO: But.

LICKING: If, if I were to go through and, like I said, some of the, the, the main names that

pop out in the, in the course of that audit, um, as having not properly impounded

evidence correctly, uh, it would have been, um, Jim Weege, Mary Ward, Roy

Rojas and Eric Harrala. Um, would that would, would those be, would tha

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