STATES OF JERSEY

COMMONWEALTH YOUTH PARLIAMENT

OFFICIAL REPORT

MORNING SESSION

TUESDAY, 27th FEBRUARY 2018

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER............................................................4

1. Welcome to Members of the Commonwealth Youth Parliament....................................4

1.1 The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):...................................................................4

QUESTIONS......................................................................................................................................42. Oral Questions..........................................................................................................................4

2.1 Mr. J. Reid of the Minister for Housing regarding ............................................................4Ms. T. May (The Minister for Housing):.....................................................................................52.1.1 Mr. J. Reid:.........................................................................................................................52.2 Mr. T.F. Vahai of the Chief Minister regarding ................................................................5Mr. T Haroon (The Minister of Finance - rapporteur):................................................................52.2.1 Mr. B. White:......................................................................................................................52.2.2 Mr. J. Tualamali’i:..............................................................................................................62.3 Mr. A. Jeffers of the Minister for Housing regarding ........................................................6Ms. T. May (The Minister for Housing):.....................................................................................72.3.1 Mr. B. White:......................................................................................................................72.4 Ms. T. Randall of the Minister for Education and Skills regarding ...................................7Ms. C. Piper (The Minister for Education and Skills):................................................................82.4.1 Ms. E. Harry:......................................................................................................................82.4.2 Ms. T. Randall:...................................................................................................................82.5 Ms. M. Bayad of the Minister for Housing regarding .......................................................8Mr. J. Gillum (Home Secretary - rapporteur):.............................................................................82.5.1 Mr. J. Reid:.........................................................................................................................9

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY......................................9

3. The Deputy Chief Minister will make a statement setting out the Government’s Education and Skills Policy.................................................................................................9

3.1 Mr. B. Sawyer of Wales (The Deputy Chief Minister):.....................................................93.1.1 Mr. P. de Garis:.................................................................................................................103.1.2 Ms. K. Hoyte:....................................................................................................................10

PERSONAL STATEMENTS.........................................................................................................10

4. Mr. A. O’Neal - statement regarding no confidence motion..........................................10

4.1 Mr. A. O’Neal:..................................................................................................................10Mr. A. Sogomonian:...................................................................................................................12Mr. T. Haroon:...........................................................................................................................12Mr. B. John:................................................................................................................................13

PUBLIC BUSINESS........................................................................................................................13

5. Planning...............................................................................................................................13

5.1 Mr. J. Reid:.......................................................................................................................13

5.2 Planning (Amd)...................................................................................................................14

5.2.1 Ms. T. May:......................................................................................................................155.2.2 Mr. K. O’Neill:.................................................................................................................155.2.3 Mr. A. Forgay:..................................................................................................................155.2.4 Mr. J. Reid:.......................................................................................................................165.2.5 Ms. M. Slack:....................................................................................................................165.2.6 Ms. E. Harry:....................................................................................................................165.2.7 Mr. T. Haroon:..................................................................................................................175.2.8 Ms. S. Gwynn:..................................................................................................................175.2.9 Mr. M. Montegriffo:.........................................................................................................175.2.10 Ms. T. May:..................................................................................................................17

5.3 Planning (Amd 2)................................................................................................................18

5.3.1 Ms. A. McArthur:.............................................................................................................185.3.2 Ms. T. Randall:.................................................................................................................195.3.3 Mr. C. Phillips:.................................................................................................................195.3.4 Mr. B. White:....................................................................................................................195.3.5 Ms. R. L. Tiakia:...............................................................................................................195.3.6 Mr. J. Gillum:....................................................................................................................195.3.7 Mr. A. Forgay:..................................................................................................................205.3.8 Ms. T. Le Monnier:...........................................................................................................205.3.9 Mr. J. Kashiba:..................................................................................................................205.3.10 Mr. B. Sawyer:.............................................................................................................205.3.11 Ms. M. Slack:...............................................................................................................205.3.12 Mr. T. Haroon:.............................................................................................................205.3.13 Ms. A. Prescott:............................................................................................................215.3.14 Mr. A. Jeffers:..............................................................................................................215.3.15 Mr. A. O’Neal:.............................................................................................................215.3.16 Mr. T. Vahai:................................................................................................................215.3.17 Ms. C. Martinez:..........................................................................................................225.3.18 Ms. A. McArthur:.........................................................................................................22

5.4 Planning (Amd 3)................................................................................................................23

5.4.1 Ms. S. Gwynn:..................................................................................................................235.4.2 Mr. K. O’Neill:.................................................................................................................235.4.3 Mr. A. Forgay:..................................................................................................................235.4.4 Ms. M. Slack:....................................................................................................................245.4.5 Mr. J. Gillum:....................................................................................................................245.4.6 Mr. T. Vahai:....................................................................................................................245.4.7 Mr. M. Burke:...................................................................................................................245.4.8 Mr. B. White:....................................................................................................................245.4.9 Ms. E. Harry:....................................................................................................................255.4.10 Mr. M. Montegriffo:.....................................................................................................25

5.4.11 Mr. B. Sawyer:.............................................................................................................265.4.12 Mr. J. Tualamali’i:........................................................................................................265.4.13 Mr. A. Jeffers:..............................................................................................................265.4.14 Ms. S. Gwynn:..............................................................................................................26

5.5 Planning - as amended.......................................................................................................27

5.5.1 Mr. J. Meissner:................................................................................................................275.5.2 Mr. P. de Garis:.................................................................................................................28

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT....................................................................................................29

[10:37]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Commonwealth Youth Parliament in Prayer.

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER1. Welcome to Members of the Commonwealth Youth Parliament1.1 The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Welcome to our second session of the Parliament. Under A I have one thing to say. Yesterday a Member raised the question of the wearing of ties by gentlemen in this Parliament and I am more familiar with the Jersey Rules than I am with the Commonwealth Rules, but I would draw attention to Members to paragraph 16 of our rules, which quite simply says: “Members must dress smartly as befits the dignity and decorum of the Chamber and the proceedings” and does not refer to ties. As long as Members are smartly dressed then there is not a problem with not wearing a tie. I just wanted to make that clear.

Mr. A. Sogomonian:Point of order, Mr. Chair. When I raised the point of order yesterday I was not quoting the rules, I was quoting the States Assembly website referring to the Commonwealth Youth Parliament, which states, I will repeat as I did yesterday: “This includes a jacket, shirt and tie for men.” Another point of order, Mr. Chair, is that it appears that the Chief Minister has some juice in this Chamber contrary to Rule 13.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you, Mr. Sogomonian. The Rules of Commonwealthland Assembly is as I read it out just now and I have no problem with any Member having a soft drink in a plastic container in the Chamber.

Mr. M. Shaw:Point of order, Mr. Chair. I find it interesting that the honourable Member questions the Chief Minister’s lack of tie but will not question every other person who is sitting in this Chamber not wearing a tie.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Sorry, Mr. Shaw, that is not a point of order. That is a political point. Could you now ask a question on which you require a ruling from me?

Mr. M. Shaw:The ruling I inquire about is whether the honourable Member is assuming that the Chief Minister identifies as a male and would thus be bound by male dress code.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. Shaw, that is not a point of order. Could we please continue with the Assembly? Thank you.

QUESTIONS2. Oral QuestionsThe Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):We only allow in our rules 5 minutes for questions so what I suggest we do is to deal with them as quickly as possible, we will do 5 questions this morning and 5 at this afternoon’s session, I think would be a sensible way to proceed. So the first question, Ms. May is being asked a question by Mr. Jevon Reid.

2.1 Mr. J. Reid of the Minister for Housing regarding ...

To Ms. May, question goes: given that the Government has committed that land in this country remains preserved for future generations, what action is the Minister taking to ensure this, Ms. May?

[10:45]

Ms. T. May (The Minister for Housing):Thank you, Mr. Reid, for your question. The Government is committed to protecting Commonwealthland for future generations and we are taking reasonable steps, which we will set out in the Government’s amendments to today’s proposition. We believe in removing bureaucracy while also managing and protecting our environment. [Approbation]

2.1.1 Mr. J. Reid:Ms. May, you made mention of environmental measures among other measures, which I believe to be vague. Could you be more specific as to what these measures may be and how you will implement them?

Ms. T. May:As we set out in the amendment, which we will be discussing later, we are looking into trying to encourage the development of brown sites before considering greenfield sites and allowing the community themselves to decide how they would like the greenfield sites to be developed for future generations. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Does anyone else have a supplementary question for the Minister? If not, we will move on to the next question, which will be asked by Tevita Vahai to the Chief Minister.

2.2 Mr. T.F. Vahai of the Chief Minister regarding ...The question is to Mr. Montegriffo, the Chief Minister. What action is your Government taking to reduce bureaucracy and red tape to stimulate the economy?

Mr. M. Montegriffo (The Chief Minister):I thank the honourable Member for the question and I am afraid that the Order Paper has missed out that this has been delegated to my Minister for Finance, Mr. Haroon, to answer. Thank you very much.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Very well. It is not usual to delegate questions put to the Chief Minister but, as I am in a good mood this morning, we will allow your Minister for Finance to answer the question.

Mr. T Haroon (The Minister of Finance - rapporteur):We in the Common Ground Party believe in the greater good of common people and believe we can achieve that through efficiency and efficiency can only be brought if we reduce regulations and improve the economy. So we in the Common Ground Party and the Government are thinking about reducing red tape, getting rid of bureaucracy, but it does not mean that we are going to let the private sector exploit our citizens. We will have regulations in place that that does not occur. But we also believe that bureaucracy is holding our economy back and so we are planning to reduce red tape and bring efficiency back to our Government through private sector but not at the cost of our people. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. Vahai, do have a supplementary question? Does anybody else have a supplementary question for the Minister.

2.2.1 Mr. B. White:I was wondering, I am not sure whether to direct it to the Chief Minister or the Minister for Finance.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):The Minister for Finance is taking this question.

Mr. B. White:Excellent. So if the Minister for Finance could just be a little bit more elaborate on what those plans are to make sure that the private sector does not overtake. I agree on reducing red tape but you spoke of regulations, if you could just make those clear?

Mr. T Haroon:Yes, what we mean by that is that we are going to have checks and processes in place so that the investors, for example, we are thinking about giving tax breaks to foreign investors to bring jobs back to our economy. But we will not let them have that on the cost of our people, so we are planning on bringing regulations so that they are not in a position to exploit our people. For example, it also means that they could have local partners and with those partners they bring the project in to us. But what the Opposition did beforehand and what we were brought into power to correct was that too many regulations were stifling our economy, so we are getting rid of those regulations, which are stifling our economy, but we will not allow the private sector to exploit our people.

2.2.2 Mr. J. Tualamali’i:The Honourable Minister, you refer to “our people”, does this genuinely support all people, including minority communities? [Approbation]

Mr. T Haroon:As our name suggests, we believe in common ground, and I believe the minorities and the majorities, everyone in Commonwealthland have a common ground, it is humanity. We believe in humanity in our party and we are for all humans, irrespective of how they look, what orientation they have, and what are their views. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):We must now move on to the third question, which Mr. Jeffers will ask of the Minister for Housing.

2.3 Mr. A. Jeffers of the Minister for Housing regarding ...Good morning to all Parliamentarians. Before I ask my question I just want to give recognition to the Honourable Keiron O’Neill for his extremely hard work as the whip and he is probably one of the most hardworking persons in this entire Parliament because he is much more hardworking than I am.

Mr. J. Reid:Point of order.

Mr. A. Jeffers:And even though it is easy to just talk about how the party is ...

Mr. J. Reid:Point of order, Sir.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Point of order, yes, Mr. Reid?

Mr. J. Reid:My apologies, point of order. May we ask that the Member ...

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Sorry, can we just have one Member standing at a time, you sit down, Mr. Jeffers, thank you. Yes, Mr. Reid?

Mr. J. Reid:Thank you, Sir. May I ask that he cuts to the chase and gets to the question please? [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. Reid, you are reading my mind. Mr. Jeffers, could I ask you to put your question, thank you?

Mr. A. Jeffers:Well, at least I got my point over. So my question is to Tiphanie May and it is: what is the Government’s position on the 10 per cent profits levy that is set out on the Planning proposition that is to be debated later today?

Ms. T. May (The Minister for Housing):Thank you, Mr. Jeffers. As we set out in our amendments, we are not intending to have a levy. We are intending to have a tax break for brownfield site regeneration. So the Government is really committed to delivering real reform to our Planning Policy in the Commonwealthland and we have supported a proposition by the Independent caucus and we will seek to amend the proposal to ensure that decisions about communities are made by those communities themselves like our local boards. We want to ensure that developments are encouraged and not punished, so we do not really want to see more taxation, we would like to see less if possible of course within the budget. Following due consultation with key stakeholders and citizens, we hope the Government can bring a credible legislation within this session in Parliament. [Approbation]

2.3.1 Mr. B. White:Just again on reference we have heard talk about tax breaks. I am just curious in terms of the private sector how you manage to give a tax break to an industry that already receives zero per cent corporate tax rate.

Mr. J. Meissner:Point of order.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Point of order?

Mr. J. Meissner:Sorry, the Member’s question seems political in nature and I do not think that is necessarily the intent of questions.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you, Mr. Meissner. If you do not mind, I will remind you, we are in a political forum, therefore I think we can expect political questions. [Laughter] Minister, would you like to answer the question please?

Ms. T. May:Thank you for your question. We are more considering property tax and stamp duty as to whether we consider these tax breaks we think should be made. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Does anyone else have a supplementary question for the Minister? If not, we will move on to the fourth question, which Tammy Randall will ask of the Minister for Education and Skills.

2.4 Ms. T. Randall of the Minister for Education and Skills regarding ...I have a question for Ms. Piper, the Government’s Minister for Education and Skills. With reference to paragraph (c) of the Skills proposition, in addition to provision made for less wealthy students, will there also be a special allocation of resources for minority ethnic students, and, if not, why not?

Ms. C. Piper (The Minister for Education and Skills):Good morning, everyone. Thank you for the question. The minority groups, if there is a student who belongs to a minority and is interested in pursuing studies in the digital sector, the digital enterprise, and they fall into the less-wealthy category, we will be allocating resources to them because they fall into that category. As my colleague said, we do not look at minority or majority but humanity, so as they fall into less-wealthy category they will benefit from these programmes. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):A supplementary question from anybody? Yes, I see Ms. Harry.

2.4.1 Ms. E. Harry:With reference to the minorities within Commonwealthland, there is a 30 per cent minority, so I would like to know from the Honourable Minister for Education and Skills what is the percentage of that 30 per cent that currently have access to tertiary education?

Ms. C. Piper:Thank you for the question as well. I do not want to mislead you as it relates to the numbers so what I will say is, as I said before, if a person in a minority group is interested in pursuing any studies, we as the Government will provide the necessary resources for that person, no matter where they are from or who they are. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):We will take one more supplementary.

2.4.2 Ms. T. Randall:You have just said “any studies”, so are you referring to any studies or are you talking about specifically the digital component ones, just to be clear?

Ms. C. Piper:We are talking about paragraph (c) of the Skills proposition, so, yes, section C.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Because of time limitations, we will move on to the final question in this session, and Maram Bayad will ask a question of the Minister for Housing who seems very popular this morning. [Laughter]

2.5 Ms. M. Bayad of the Minister for Housing regarding ...I just have a question for Tiphanie May, Minister for Housing. What action is the Government taking to develop homes in Island’s rural villages?

Ms. T. May (The Minister for Housing):Thank you for the question. I would like to delegate this to the Home Secretary if I may.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Yes, well as I allowed the Chief Minister to do it, I will allow you to do that.

Mr. J. Gillum (Home Secretary - rapporteur):This Government is one that is committed to protecting our environment by proposing the development of brownfield sites as one of those of key importance. This question was specifically in relation to the Island’s rural villages and, as my honourable friend has already mentioned, we must allow local communities to make the decision on the said issue. Because we need a community and we need housing development stock that is sustainable for people and sustainable for the services that are in the area so we can provide them education, health, and other services. So we are working on the much broader perspective of a Planning Policy and I believe some of the steps in the proposition that the Government have amended will take this a step further as well. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Is there any supplementary question? Mr. Reid.

2.5.1 Mr. J. Reid:Madame May, several questions have come your way since this morning and I have not heard any mention of the concept of zoning. Now, are there any specific and strategic regulations or policies in place to ensure that developments do not happen in areas where they should not be in the simplest way possible?

Mr. A. Jeffers:Point of order, because the question was delegated to Mr. Gillum, would the question not be answered by Mr. Gillum and not be directed towards her?

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. Jeffers, yes, you are so ahead of me. [Laughter] As I said, the question has been delegated to the Minister for Home Affairs and therefore he will take any supplementary questions if he is able to. So the question has been asked; Mr. Gillum, I must ask you to answer it.

Mr. J Gillum:Thank you for your question. I believe the current Government believe very strongly in a community-based focused approach, so it is all about community first and community decision makers making the decision on housing. I believe my honourable friend the Minister for Housing may be interested to hear your thoughts at other times if it is of convenience.

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY3. The Deputy Chief Minister will make a statement setting out the Government’s

Education and Skills PolicyThe Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Any further supplementaries? In that case the remaining questions we will leave over until this afternoon’s sitting. We have a statement on a matter of official responsibility by Mr. Sawyer, the Deputy Chief Minister.

3.1 Mr. B. Sawyer of Wales (The Deputy Chief Minister):So this is a Government for all of Commonwealthland and we aim to ensure our Island is the best place in the world to grow up and to learn. We want to invest in our economy but we are acutely aware that an investment in knowledge pays the best interest, which is why this Government wants to invest in the growing digital knowledge of this Island and the education, which creates the future of this country.

[11:00]

We have many practical proposals to achieve this goal, including all degree courses having a digital skills component, developing a bursary scheme that supports the less-wealthy students and minorities, and creating a loan scheme that covers the cost of those degrees. The most important aspect of this proposition is creating a workforce that possesses the digital skills and qualifications that will bring those individuals and continue to grow and diversify our economy through education. The Government are also aware that we are a minority would welcome the opportunity to work constructively with our partners and other parties to deliver the comprehensive and consensual policies. Our Minister for Education and Skills and whip will be willing to hear from all Members’ concerns and we are a listening Government. In conclusion, Presiding Officer, I look forward to supporting the Minister for Education and Skills later today when she outlines our bold proposal to deliver a skills revolution in Commonwealthland and continue to act in the interests of the many and not the few. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):We now have a short period of questions to the Deputy Chief Minister if anyone wants to ask a question on his statement?

3.1.1 Mr. P. de Garis:I just wish to seek a little bit of clarification. You are saying that your proposals are to create things that I do not think you are outlining in your policy letter, you talk about a loan scheme, but in fact you outlined a bursary in the proposition itself.

Mr. B. Sawyer:Thank you for your question, Mr. de Garis. So we understand that, as a party, that loans and bursaries are a way to stimulate a growing economy and to stimulate education and whether it is through bursaries or loans, which the semantics of which and the logistics of which will be figured out once we get this proposal through, then we will decide on whether loans or bursaries are the best way going forward.

3.1.2 Ms. K. Hoyte:Deputy Minister, you talk about being interested in many and not the few, but yet the Skills Education Bill only provides bursaries to those interested in a digital component, one, and the Government in itself only supports education, free universal education for all from the age of 4 to 18, whereas the Opposition, progressive as they are, support free universal education at any age and believes in higher education access for all. So how is that “many” when really and truly you are only targeting “few” who are interested in the digital component? [Approbation]

Mr. B. Sawyer:Thank you very much for your question. So I agree that education is a life-long experience and everyone is always learning, so 4 to 18 is official education but you will continue to learn throughout. I understand that the Opposition wants to bring this free education higher, but where is the money coming from? We understand that the digital economy is the future and we want to invest in that digital economy and in digital education to ensure that, as an Island, we are not left behind because the digital is not the future, the digital economy is now. [Approbation]

PERSONAL STATEMENTS4. Mr. A. O’Neal - statement regarding no confidence motionThe Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):I am afraid we will now have to move on. That is the 3 minutes allowed for questions on a statement. I understand there is a personal statement to be made by Mr. O’Neal. I would ask, Mr. O’Neal, if you could make your statement please?

4.1 Mr. A. O’Neal:There comes a time when the Common Ground stops working for the common good, I fear that time is now upon us. Yesterday this House was shocked at the revelations from the Member from British Columbia, though the Member was logically sound in his thinking, he did not go far enough. He ought to have called for a no-confidence motion in this Government. Today I am making that call. The only decision that the Chief Minister has made is to conceptualise a farcical party name that he thought would resonate with Opposition and the Independent Members. I am now made to believe that he, in a vain attempt to lure minority groups; he is now trying to appease them. The essence of this motion I am bringing here this morning is that the Government has failed the nation, we have lost credibility, and it is time for us to go in this current format. As a senior Member of Government and as a loyal son of this Commonwealthland I can no longer sit silent and watch the country that has been good to me desecrated by the inaction and inability of this Government to fulfil its legislative agenda. We cannot continue to operate in this manner. We need a Government that is willing to make bold decisions in the face of criticism and for the benefit of all Islanders. It is not unusual for minority governments to manoeuvre in these climates and push their legislative agenda. We know it is possible if we look at our friends in Jersey. What condemns this Government is that it lacks any real persuasive leadership. We have a case where 5 Chief Ministers were allowed to be created from within the Chief Minister’s own Cabinet, 5 people leading this country robs the Government and the Chief Minister of any authority, credibility and dignity. The only way to fix these issues is to seek a fresh mandate from the people or hand over the reins of power to a competent, decisive and bold, leader ready to take bulls by the horn. [Approbation] This is not possible from this Chief Minister. I have exercised tremendous forbearance with this Chief Minister and with this Government. Today I am breaking my silence. With those few words, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government. [Approbation]

Mr. J. Gillum:Point of order.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you, Mr. O’Neal.

Mr. J. Gillum:Thank you very much for your indulgence. I take that as the Cultural Secretary’s resignation statement. [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Are you raising a point of order?

Mr. J. Gillum:A point of order, I would appreciate it if the Greffe or yourself could outline if the process, if I was about to say, whoever leads the Government Caucus is a matter for the Government Caucus?

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. O’Neal has made, as an elected Member of this Assembly, a statement that he wishes to lodge a vote of no confidence in the Chief Minister. That has been accepted. That will be published later on this morning and it will be debated at this afternoon’s session. But before I allow it to go forward, Mr. O’Neal, can you indicate that you have some notion of court for your proposition of no confidence?

Mr. A. O’Neal:Absolutely I can say so, certainly, and I expect that this motion will pass with tremendous colours.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Do you have a seconder?

Mr. A. O’Neal:Yes, I do.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):You have a number of Members who support you. Thank you very much. So that proposition I rule is in order, will be published this morning and, as I say, debated at this afternoon’s session, which means that we may not get to the Skills debate this afternoon.

Mr. A. Forgay:A point of clarification, so should that motion pass and go through, what would the resulting process be and how would this House go against your vote?

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):If the motion were successful, I would then ask the Opposition leader if he is able to form a Government; that is the normal procedure. Mr. Sogomonian, do you have a point of order?

Mr. A. Sogomonian:As I think it will not surprise Members, I am a keen proceduralist and my understanding is that, in the absence of rules in the Commonwealth Youth Parliament Rules that we have been provided, we refer to the Rules of the States Assembly. Now, the States Assembly Standing Orders state that: “A proposition that the States have no confidence in any person or body of persons cannot be lodged unless it is signed by at least 3 Members of the States in addition to the proposer and accompanied by a report setting out why the proposer considers that it should be adopted.” The other element that is missing is that there is a minimum lodging period applicable to a proposition relating to any action or remedies and a petition and I do not think that has been met either. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):We do not automatically follow the rules or Standing Orders of another Parliament, another Assembly, and it would be not possible for us to follow the rules in this case of the States of Jersey Standing Orders, which I think you are referring to, because the States of Jersey do not have a party political system, therefore it could not work. We cannot have a minimum lodging period because if we did that you would all be gone home before we got to debating it. So my ruling is, as I said before, the proposition will be lodged, will be published this morning and debated this afternoon as it is a matter of urgency and it is something that should not be hanging over the head of a Chief Minister for any length of time. It needs to be debated as soon as possible. Mr. Haroon, if you have a point of order?

Mr. T. Haroon:Yes, I just wanted to ask what is the procedure of dislodging a Government? Can I get 3 persons to agree with me and next time, and maybe for next Chief Minister I can pass a motion to de-seat him? [Laughter] Because we can go back and forth on this.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):If any Member can indicate a reasonable amount of support for such a proposition, it would be accepted.

Mr. T. Haroon:So what is considered as reasonable?

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):

I would hope that we would get around to debating some of the propositions, which have been put forward, and we discussed yesterday the things we would like to discuss. Mr. Sogomonian, is this another point of order?

Mr. A. Sogomonian:Given that we do not seem to have rules, which is where this seems to be going because I am referring to things before, saying they do not seem to be followed, you state that it is a matter of urgency and that it should not be something that should be hanging off the Chief Minister’s head, so I would seek indulgence of this House perhaps for unanimous consent if it is required to deal with the motion before the House immediately.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):The proposition has not been published and will not be debated until it has been published and all Members have seen it. I have made a ruling that this will be debated as the first item of Public Business at this afternoon’s session.

Mr. B. John:A second point of order. The rules for Commonwealthland stipulate that you can call to move to next business. Could I make that call now? [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):No, a good try Mr. John, but we are not on any business at the moment, we have just had a statement, a few points of order on which I have made rulings, we are not on any business for us to move on from.

Mr. B. John:So, to clarify, when we move on to the ...

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):If you are addressing the Chair, Mr. John, could you stand please?

Mr. B. John:To clarify, when we move on to the Planning proposition, I can make the same plea within a couple of seconds, is that the case?

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):I would consider the request and if the debate had been going on for some time and a number of Members had spoken I might allow it, but I would not allow it very early on in the debate because that would infringe the rights of a minority. Is this a point of order, Mr. Sawyer?

Mr. B. Sawyer:Point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think we should rise above party politics and get back to talking about what is good for Commonwealthland.

PUBLIC BUSINESS5. PlanningThe Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you. That was not a point of order. I think time is moving on. The time is right now to move on to Public Business, which is the proposition on Planning, which is due to be proposed by an Independent Member. Who is proposing the Planning proposition? Mr. Reid. I ask the Greffier to read the proposition.

The Greffier of the States:

The Assembly is of the opinion that (a) no new housing or commercial development should be approved in the green zone outside of St. John without specific parliamentary approval; (b) all new housing and commercial development should be focused on the urban Parishes of St. John, St. George and St. Luke and should aim to revitalise brownfield sites; (c) the Government should enforce a 10 per cent levy on the profits derived from any housing or commercial development which is not located on a brownfield site; and (d) the Minister for Housing is requested to bring forward the legislation necessary to implement paragraphs (a) to (c) by June 2018.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. Reid, could you make your proposition please?

5.1 Mr. J. Reid:Mr. Speaker and Members of the Assembly, I greet you again, good morning. I put it to you this morning that prior planning prevents poor performance. In our beloved Commonwealthland there are approximately 100,000 citizens and the average age of which is 42 years old. This is a fairly young population, is it not? When our youth become more qualified and capable of making a living independent of their guardians it is natural that home ownership is high on their agenda. As youth begin to seek employment, they flock to areas that are engaged in manufacturing and service activities but has the House done its best to ensure the efficient use of Commonwealthland to derive the highest and best use of its resources?

[11:15]

Honourable host, today I posit the land use is not an investor’s problem or a Government’s problem, it is everybody’s problem to be concerned with. For far too long the Government has sat by allowed for the misuse of land in our rural areas. Poor planning and inconsistent patterns of land use among our constituents is a serious cause for concern as we have seen the transformation of agricultural lands to poorly unplanned settlements. This limits our ability to earn. Can you imagine Commonwealthland losing its potential as a pearl to a land of ghettos and slums? Just last year we saw several commercial developments in an area best suited for agricultural use. Such developments are accompanied by a high demand for housing, and if not monitored by the Government unplanned settlements are erected. Let us secure land by using it wisely today in preparation to maximise our potential for future development. I am of the view that no new housing or commercial developments should be approved in the green zone outside of St. John without specific parliamentary approval. This speaks to urbanisation, which is defined by the United Nations as movement of people from rural to urban areas with population growth equating to urban migration. It was projected in 2004 that by 2008 half of the world’s population would be living in urban areas. Where is Commonwealthland in relation to these projections? I am also of the view that all new housing and commercial development should be focused on the urban Parishes of St. John, St. George, St. Luke, and should aim to revitalise brownfield sites. The benefits of focusing development on urban parishes are immeasurable and best suited for a developing nation. Some of these benefits include complementarities between activities, economies of agglomeration and economies in the use of public services. Mr. Speaker, such developments in these Parishes are good as, not only would they provide employment in the property market, but it will also add value to our economy as competition for space gives rise to higher land values. Members of this House like to be identified with things that are deemed progressive, yet today, in the brink of our breakthrough to economic stability; we lack vision and farsighted leadership. We lack the ability to be proactive and not reactive. We are at a crossroads and opportunity comes but once. If you fail to act now we would have done a great disservice to our constituents and delivered poor performance. This day I appeal to Members of this honourable House, take hold of your developments that are popping up, join me in getting ahead of the game and making our urban development more organised and structured. Think not only of your needs

today but of sustainable land use with the future of Commonwealthland in mind. I close by reminding us that prior planning prevents poor performance. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you, Mr. Reid. Is the proposition seconded? Mr. O’Neal, you are seconding the proposition? [Seconded] Do you wish to speak now or you can speak later, as you wish?

5.2 Planning (Amd)The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):There are a number of amendments to the proposition, the first in the name of the Government. I would ask the Greffier to read the amendment please.

The Greffier of the States:In paragraph (a), for the words “specific parliamentary approval” substitute the words “approval of a local board of community representatives. Replace paragraphs (b) and (c) with the following new paragraph: “The Government should impose a 10 per cent tax concession on the stamp duty paid on brownfield site developments in the Parishes of St. John, St. George and St. Luke. In paragraph (d) after the words “is requested” insert the words “to carry out due consultation and” and for the words “by June 2018” substitute the words “within this Parliament”.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Before the Government representative moves the amendment, I should point out that, if amendment 2 of the Government’s amendments is adopted, 2 of the later amendments will fall away, the Opposition amendment to (c) and Voyageurs amendment to amendment 1, because the Government amendment changes the profits levy into a tax concession if that is approved. Mr. Montegriffo, who is speaking on the Government’s amendments?

5.2.1 Ms. T. May:As far as amendment 1 goes, we felt that parliamentary approval for all development within greenfield sites was a lot of bureaucracy and red tape that was unnecessary and we would like to put it to the citizens of Commonwealthland to how they would like to see the green spaces protected and developed, of course because we are a growing nation, there may be times where we need a reasonable development in these areas. So these boards would be made up of local stakeholders, just local representatives of the community, and would be advised by a planning member or planning officer. Regarding (b) and (c), we supported (b) but felt it did not have an incentive to do so, so by combining with our new tax cut rather than a tax levy we felt that this would incentivise regeneration of these urban areas into housing or commercial rather than moving out into the greenfield sites. The local boards would control any sort of ghetto development in the outside areas and keep it all within the urban areas. Finally, we felt that by June 2018 with consultation and legal drafting and creating the board, it just was not realistic for us to complete this in 10 months, so we would like to extend it to within our Parliament and that would also hold us to account that we would have to complete this before the end of our terms. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Are the amendments seconded? [Seconded] Thank you, Mr. O’Neal. Do you wish to speak now?

5.2.2 Mr. K. O’Neill:I stand in support of the Minister for Housing’s amendments to the proposition put out by the Independents. Government amendments seek to incentivise development in the areas we spoke about and also make sure that decisions about local communities are made by those communities. We do not see the idea that us as elected Members of this Assembly should have the decision in what is a micro local issue and that should be made up by local people and not representatives who have nothing to do with the area. With reference to amendment 3, we agreed that it is necessary for

the Government as a whole to carry out due consultation with stakeholders in Commonwealthland and as a result of that we do not think it is possible to deliver within the timescale set out in the Independent’s proposition, so we will request that, rather than have a set date, we will seek to introduce legislation within this session of the Assembly. I will speak to the Opposition amendments. I think this highlights a bit of a problem with how we are doing business and for example I think the second amendment put forward by the Voyageur group is an excellent amendment and one that I would have ideally liked to have supported and I have to say ...

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. O’Neill, I think perhaps we should wait until we come to those amendments. We are just debating the Government’s amendments.

Mr. K. O’Neill:Absolutely, well in that case I have nothing more to add.

5.2.3 Mr. A. Forgay:On the Opposition we have a couple of reservations with a few of the amendments that are brought forward by the Government, the most of which is that we are worried with the potential abuses of power that could come from a local community board and what that board would be made up of as opposed to parliamentary approval on these development sites. The worry of the Opposition party is that we do not know who is going to be on these community representative boards and developers could be on them, people that could put pressure, we do not understand and there is no process laid out to make sure that those community representatives are fully representative of the people in Jersey and we see that this Parliament has already done that, we are the duly elected Members of this Parliament, we have our constituents behind us and, as we have that support, we should be the ones to make the decisions on planning going forward. [Approbation]

5.2.4 Mr. J. Reid:In addition to what the Member posited, it would be good if the Minister for Housing could tell us if the makeup of this board will be people who are knowledgeable, will these people be knowledgeable in the discipline of urban development?

Ms. M. Slack:Yes, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Sorry, you will have the opportunity of answering the questions when you sum-up the proposition on the amendments.

5.2.5 Ms. M. Slack:The Government would not like the Independents and Opposition to get the impression that we are being entirely antagonistic. The Government agrees in part to the proposition that was put forward by the Independent Members, but it would be noticed that the period of public consultation that was mentioned would provide an opportunity for discussion and discourse to be had in relation to the makeup of this very board for which the question was just raised. [Approbation]

5.2.6 Ms. E. Harry:My concern even with the consultation process is that there is nothing in this amendment that says specifically that these are the rules that govern the makeup of the board that is going to be made up of community representatives, so there could be consultation and residents and citizens of Commonwealthland may suggest that certain people sit on this board, but this amendment is so vague it allows the Government to still decide who they would like to see sit on this board and this

is not in the true and fair interests of democracy and in representing the issues of our constituents. [Approbation]

Mr. T. Haroon:Mr. Speaker, a point of order. I just wanted to have clarification whether if the concerns of Opposition Members can be answered by anyone in the Cabinet or just the specific Minister?

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):The Minister for Housing will have the opportunity of responding to the debate, but any other Member of the Government or any Member of this Assembly has the right to speak during the debate and make any points they wish on the amendments or comments that have been made on the amendments.

Mr. T. Haroon:With your agreement I would like to make a statement then.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):You wish to make a speech on the amendment, yes, fine.

5.2.7 Mr. T. Haroon:Beforehand we had a lot of talk about looking at the welfare of minorities. How do we look at the welfare of minorities? Surely it is when minorities are involved in decision making. What we want with this amendment is approval of a local community board. Certainly local community board will be made up of the community leaders, so, for example, if we are going to have a development in the minority land it is the leaders of that minority group who are going to make decisions. Certainly other Members are not proposing that we, majority, are going to make decisions for the minority, so therefore are a very inclusive Government who believes in the rights of all minorities, we the minority Government who are in minority are going to look after the welfare of minorities by making sure that the decisions of communities are made by the community leaders, not by someone who is sitting on the outside. [Approbation]

5.2.8 Ms. S. Gwynn:We would like to say that we are supportive of amendments 1 and 3 of the Government amendments; however we do have reservations about the tax concession in amendment 2. We think that with the local board of community representatives, the community can get involved and the minority will be able to be involved in those community discussions. In regards to amendment 3, carrying out due consultation, it seems like a good initiative, however we are not very supportive of a tax concession. We think that the levy should be used to help provide affordable housing for people in the minority and who need that housing.

5.2.9 Mr. M. Montegriffo:Thank you for the honourable Members’ intervention, and if I could just add, we are a Government of incentives and we want to encourage investment into Commonwealthland; we want jobs to be created, especially for young people, so they can get a start in life, we can incentivise them to get into tech, et cetera.

[11:30]

So that is why we are going for incentive-based, taking off, for instance, the stamp duty was one of the ideas that is incentive-based, as opposed to imposing an extra tax on businesses that might provide jobs for young people in our community.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):

Does anybody else wish to speak on the Government amendments? If not, I will ask the Minister to respond.

5.2.10 Ms. T. May:Thank you to everyone who contributed. Addressing the concerns about the local board, this is taking it back to my own country, this is how it worked back in the Falklands, is we have representatives of all the industries, such as from the Chamber of Commerce who represent all the commerce, from all the different minorities and all the different areas of the country, and this would be what the model I would base the local board on, democratically elected and of course there will be a Chair and a planning officer with all the qualifications and necessary skills to advise on current planning procedure in zones.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Ms. May, we will now come to the vote. We have debated the 3 amendments. How would you like the vote to be taken? We could vote at one vote for all 3 or you could have a separate vote on each amendment, which would you prefer?

Ms. T. May:A separate vote.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):A separate on each, yes, fine. So the vote is on amendment 1 of the Government, will all those in favour please show? We could do an appeal. I will ask the Greffier to open the voting. All Members had the opportunity of voting. If all Members have had the opportunity of voting I ask the Greffier to close the voting. I can announce the amendment 1 has been adopted: 24 votes in favour, 23 against. [INSERT VOTE TABLE] [Approbation] I ask the Greffier to reset the voting system and to open the voting on amendment 2. Now open. Have all Members had the opportunity to vote? I ask the Greffier to close the voting. That amendment has been lost: 19 votes in favour, 30 against. [INSERT VOTE TABLE] Finally we go to amendment 3. I ask the Greffier to reset the voting and to open the voting. I am going too quickly for him. The voting is now open. I ask the Greffier to close the voting. I can announce that amendment has been carried: 46 votes in favour, one against and one abstention. [INSERT VOTE TABLE] [Approbation]

5.3 Planning (Amd 2)The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):We now move to the Opposition amendments. I ask the Greffier to read the amendments.

The Greffier of the States:In paragraph (a) after the words “parliamentary approval” insert the words “except for social housing of an ecological design that meets the U.N. (United Nations) Global Green Standard; that is, the housing should be carbon-neutral, off-grid and self-sufficient for energy and heating needs and there should be a cap on the development on green-zones to 1.5 acres per year so as to prevent overdevelopment”. In paragraph (c) after the words “brownfield site” insert the words “except in the case of social housing and first-time buyers and that the levy should be increased from 10 per cent to 15 per cent on commercial development on non-brownfield sites.”

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. de Garis, will you be speaking to the amendments?

Mr. P. de Garis:No, I would like to call up my Shadow Minister for Housing, Ms. McArthur, please.

5.3.1 Ms. A. McArthur:

As the Island faces the challenges of an increasing population, it is imperative that we take action now that will help us to keep housing accessible to all Islanders, not just those that are fortunate enough to be on a high salary. The limited supply of housing is driving up property prices, increasing our already high cost of living. First-time buyers see home ownership as a pipe dream, our older generation cannot afford to retire, single parent families and minority communities struggle to put a roof over their children’s heads. We do however recognise the importance of preserving the beautiful countryside that we all enjoy on this Island and to this end we believe that the proportional development of affordable housing that remains in keeping with our environmental goals will be in the interests of all Islanders. So, in relation to amendment (a), the growing population means that the demand for housing will continue to increase, even beyond designated brownfield sites. If such development is inevitable we should promote and encourage it to be done in a sustainable and environmentally friendly way. The amendment we propose would help provide the affordable housing that we need while allowing Commonwealthland to be pioneers in the future of green development. In relation to amendment (c), a levy on affordable housing would only serve to compound our problem; it would serve to increase the price of properties, pricing the poorest and most vulnerable out of the housing market. Furthermore, Commonwealthland is a very wealthy jurisdiction, but not everyone in society is benefiting from this. The Island’s economy is dominated by the finance industry, many corporations have derived substantial profits from their presence in our Island and have utilised our infrastructure and close links to the City of London for their benefit. As much, most of the commercial development will be to accommodate new office buildings. These corporations and property developers will derive large profits from building on this land and it will not go to the Islanders that need that. As such, it is fair and just to ask them to contribute towards financing housing for our most needy, many of which are minorities. The Island has enabled them to make healthy profits, so now it is time for them to give back to society. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you. Are the amendments seconded? [Seconded] Right, thank you very much. The amendments are now open for debate. Does anyone wish to speak?

5.3.2 Ms. T. Randall:I really want to show my support for what Ms. McArthur has said so far. I think we are a young Parliament and we really need a fresh approach. We need to be prepared to break away from the traditional ways we have been using so far with innovative proposals that serve the future generations. What we are suggesting is something that can really help those who are most vulnerable in our society. We are really failing to provide care for these people and this is what we are trying to do, is basically just lend a helping hand. But also the idea is to invest in our society and give young professionals starting out more flexibility and access to the housing market. But I think we really need to go further and provide clean, safe and cheaper housing to those constituents who have been marginalised maybe so far. We have to recognise the benefits of social housing, in the sense that it can bring together not only individuals and families but our community and Commonwealthland as a whole. [Approbation]

5.3.3 Mr. C. Phillips:I rise to support my colleague, the Shadow Housing Minister, on amendment (a). I believe this deserves our support because it addresses the need for social housing and affords Commonwealthland the exciting opportunity to be a pioneer and cutting edge super-ecological homes. These unique buildings will actively reduce our carbon footprints. Also, we will meet the Global Green Standards and that is the right thing to do. A cap on 1.5 acres means there is no risk of overdevelopment, rather it is proportionate and uses our land sustainably for the good of our planet. A fair, balanced and green compromise, this deserves our support today. [Approbation]

5.3.4 Mr. B. White:

I would just like to reiterate the points made. I think we have not only the opportunity as a young Parliament to show our support in all areas of climate change and how we can reduce our carbon footprint. This is us fulfilling our responsibility to do that. All aspects of these amendments look towards sustainability. Sustainability is something we heard a lot about yesterday from both sides. People pushed for sustainability, they want to see the right thing done but they want to see it done properly. They do not want to see short-term changes that are then going to take humongous fixes later on. They want to see it now and they want to see it last. Again, just adding my support in for those amendments. [Approbation]

5.3.5 Ms. R. L. Tiakia:I have been sitting here listening to all the chatter going on about community voice and inclusivity. I speak on behalf of the minority. We support this amendment for the minority and that is all. [Approbation]

5.3.6 Mr. J. Gillum:I am speaking against these amendments today for a number of reasons. If the previous administration really cared about the education and skills that are really required to build this Global Green Standard, it is something that we do not have at the moment, which is why this Government is making steps and taking steps to do this, as discussed in another Bill. But before we have those skills, will we have the workforce that can prepare these off-the-grid self-sufficient ecologically-designed housing? Regarding about the restriction on development, if we want to grow our economy there are parts that we need to develop as well. If we put too many restrictions, too much bureaucracy, then there will be more difficulties in the economy growing. Finally, on the 15 per cent on commercial development on brownfield sites, it will act as a turnoff for corporations to come, businesses to start and it is not something that we want. We need to stimulate the economy and not put this restriction on the economy. [Approbation]

5.3.7 Mr. A. Forgay:I thank my honourable friend, Mr Gillum, for his comments and while it is true that I think everyone here agrees that we have to stimulate the economy and move our Island forward, we have to do so in a sustainable way and that is simply what these 2 amendments to this motion ensure. They ensure that it is done responsibly for the environment and they ensure that those non-brownfield sites are protected. Because of those 2 things we firmly feel that it is still possible to add development. It is still possible to move our Island forward but to do that responsibly and to do that with respect to the environment and to communities that need assistance of this Government. [Approbation]

5.3.8 Ms. T. Le Monnier:Just to add to that point on creating a sustainable living environment for everyone, I see no reason why the Government should oppose this amendment, given that the Government bases itself on contributing and working towards a strong green economy. There is no reason why they should be opposing this amendment which furthers that aim. [Approbation]

5.3.9 Mr. J. Kashiba:I would like to vote against the amendment that the opposition wants to make. I believe encouraging people to move into the green zone may cause the need for people to have more children, simply because they have more land. It simply means there is a possibility that if this Act were to continue overpopulation would start to take place. What happens if there are more people on that part? What really happens?

5.3.10 Mr. B. Sawyer:

I would like to speak against this amendment. Again, the word “sustainability” is a great term, which, again, is bandied around this Parliament. But I think the real question of sustainability is, where are we getting the money to create this so-called sustainable housing?

5.3.11 Ms. M. Slack:Having heard the intention of the Independents, the amendment was really so as to progress the agricultural sector and to allow more acreage for agricultural use. What the opposition is proposing flies counter to the full intention of the Independents and that is something that ought to be taken into account by them.

5.3.12 Mr. T. Haroon:These are very great words; social housing with an ecological design. We will be off the grid, there will be heating that will be independent of the national grid, since our energies from nuclear reactors, I believe we will have solar energy. These are all great ideas on paper but how are we going to make it?

[11:45]

What they are proposing is there will be social housing, social for common people and it will have a solar panel on it, it will have an independent heating system and this will be going to cost cheaply. I think they live in a utopia. It is not going to be cheap. Who is going to pay for it? Certainly the commercial builders will never make a house that no one will buy. Social housing with off-the-grid heat and solar panels, this is going to cost a lot of it. They live in a utopia, we believe in reality and reality is that there should be social housing that people can pay for. If people cannot afford it there will be no builder because builder is going to look for customers and then there will be no demand, which supplier is going to supply the housing? These are all great words but in real life this does not work and it certainly will not work here. Therefore, we believe in the Government that this amendment should not be carried. [Approbation]

5.3.13 Ms. A. Prescott:Hearing a member of Government earlier saying too much bureaucracy and the economy is not growing, they can both grow together. [Approbation]

5.3.14 Mr. A. Jeffers:I am listening to all the arguments and a lot of them are really sound. Any person with any decent heart would genuinely support these amendments. It is not like we are all trying to fight against each other to win. We are all doing it for the people. But the thing is, is that nobody is thinking about the economy and how we are going to pay for it. I understand where the opposition and the independents are coming from and that we need social housing. The thing is, is that, can we afford it? Because we have not seen the budget and exactly how much money we want to work with and we have to work with. Everybody is just approving Bills left, right and centre that seems good but nobody is really thinking about how much it would cost. [Approbation] We already have a Bill to propose about universal healthcare and now we want to go and introduce this Bill, which would put even more strain on our economy. Yes, it would be nice probably for like a year or 2 or something like that but then how exactly are we going to make the money back? How exactly are we going to go and get the economy back on track? Because right now we already know that the economy is being strained right now for money, though it is really nice to be optimistic about all of this, I just think we also still have to think about the economy and think about how to go and make money, as well as doing things and go and help each other.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. Phillips, I think you have already spoken on this amendment. Does anyone else wish to speak on the Progressive Party’s amendments?

5.3.15 Mr. A. O’Neal:I raise this amendment for everybody on the Progressive Party. It seems to me that the Government is only interested in asking the questions where the money is coming from but it would be remiss of us to not point out the need for governments to prioritise. This learning Government we saw yesterday that they have challenges, dealing with issues that touch the average man, the minority groups within our Commonwealthland. They think that it would be responsible for the Government to consider adding this clause to benefit the majority of Commonwealthland.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you, Mr. O’Neal. Time is moving on but is there anyone else who feels desperate to speak upon the Progressive Party’s amendments?

5.3.16 Mr. T. Vahai:I think I will just add on to what my fellow colleague asked about Government, worrying about where to get funding for these propositions. It is quite ironic because the stance of Government is to charge less tax. The proposal put forward by the opposition party is to have that tax levy in order to get that funding to assist with the proposal put forth by the opposition. We are in support of the amendment, given that this would lead on to what we will be proposing in our amendments as well in terms of affordability and accessibility to the minority. [Approbation]

5.3.17 Ms. C. Martinez:In amendment to (c) with the opposition it states that the levy should be increased from 10 per cent to 15 per cent with this increase on commercial development on non-brownfield sites. My question is to opposition, with the increase of this levy, where would the money go to development of the Commonwealthland?

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):I think we really need to move on with this because we have got some more amendments and the proposition as amended to debate. Unless someone raises something new and vitally important to say, I will ask the Shadow Housing Minister to sum up, please.

5.3.18 Ms. A. McArthur:Just to address a couple of the comments that have been made, particularly in relation to how are we going to pay for this eco building? The increase in eco technology means that the building of such properties is becoming increasingly affordable. We have to look to the future and the sustainable design will ensure that the properties are of good quality and will stay in good condition for many years to come, more so than a lot of the building that is being done at the moment. Furthermore, the self-sufficiency will ensure that residents will not have to spend a large amount of money on things such as electricity and heating bills. In addition, it is going to help stimulate the economy. It is going to be able to provide more jobs and diversify the employment outside of the finance industry. We have £8 million currently set aside in contingencies for things that are very important and pressing issues. We believe that this is an issue that needs to be addressed straightaway. Furthermore, we want to support our most in need, not save money for well-paid corporations and individuals in the finance industry and in commercial property development. We believe that our amendments will decrease the wealth disparity and raise the standard of living for all of our community. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. Shaw, I saw your light come on, do you have a point of order?

Mr. M. Shaw:My only concern that I would recommend the Members consider is that if we have a set amount …

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. Shaw, if it is a point of order you are asking me for a ruling on something.

Mr. M. Shaw:No, no …

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Are you making another speech?

Mr. M. Shaw:It was about the debate but …

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):The debate is concluded, I am sorry. Ms. McArthur, how would you like the vote to be taken? You have 2 amendments; do you want them taken together as one vote or 2 separate votes?

Ms. A. McArthur:Separate, yes, 2 votes.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Separate, right, thank you. Right, the first vote is on amendment to (a) and I ask the Greffier to open the voting. If all Members have had the opportunity of voting, I ask the Greffier to close the voting. I can announce that that amendment has been adopted: 29 votes in favour, 17 against and one abstention. [Approbation] [INSERT VOTE TABLE] I ask the Greffier to reset the voting and will now be voting on amendment 2(c) and I ask the Greffier to open the voting. If all Members have had the opportunity to vote, I ask the Greffier to close the voting. I can announce that amendment has been adopted: 32 votes in favour, 17 against. [Approbation] [INSERT VOTE TABLE]

5.4 Planning (Amd 3)The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):We now move on to the final set of amendments by Voyageurs. Who will be speaking for … Yes, I will ask the Greffier to read the amendments.

The Greffier of the States:Amendment 1, in paragraph (c), after the words “brownfield sites”, insert the words “with the levy to be used by the Government to establish a rent-to-buy scheme for households with an annual income of under £50,000 to purchase affordable houses.” Amendment 2, after paragraph (c), insert new paragraph (d): “The Government must ensure that the new housing developments are affordable and accessible for families and minority people” and re-number the following paragraph accordingly.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Who is making the … Ms. Gwynn, thank you.

5.4.1 Ms. S. Gwynn:We would like to propose these amendments, as currently the planning proposal did not address affordable housing situation for the minority and for those people who need affordable housing. We currently have in our Commonwealthland a high cost of living and people struggling for affordable housing. Those 30 per cent in the minority are unable to purchase affordable housing and have adequate living situations. We think that that is not acceptable. We have made these amendments to the planning proposition, amendment 1, by having a rent-to-buy scheme for households that have annual income under £50,000, will be able to live in a house and slowly pay

off to purchase a house. That means that they will be able to have adequate living and suitable situations. In amendment 2, we are putting pressure on the Government to ensure that these housing developments are affordable and accessible for families. The Government will say that these propositions are not affordable and not sustainable but they were willing to give a 10 per cent tax incentive for people who wanted to … sorry, on brown sites. This is affordable and this is able to be amended and should be accepted by the House.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you. Is the amendment seconded? [Seconded] The amendments are now open for debate.

5.4.2 Mr. K. O’Neill:I have to say I am a little bit upset to hear my friends, the Voyageurs, say the Government do not support their amendments, when in fact we will be supporting amendment 2 when we come to a vote. We will not be supporting amendment 1 because we have a longstanding position that we do not think, for one, we need more taxes, we need more bureaucracy and we need more to dampen our economy. I can absolutely confirm that the Government will be supporting the amendment 2, which will ensure that there is adequate housing developments and affordable to all people, with particular reference to minorities in Commonwealthland but under no circumstances will the Government be endorsing a policy that will lead to higher taxes for ordinary working people. [Approbation]

5.4.3 Mr. A. Forgay:I rise to offer the Opposition support of the amendments but also to comment on some of the comments made by my honourable friend, Mr. O’Neill. I would like to point out the fact that this is not specifically imposing a new tax, this is simply an allocation scheme of how to spend the tax we have already discussed earlier and when the Government amendment failed. We already have discussed and voted on the idea that this tax Bill be implemented. All we are doing here is spending it on the proper things and, again, we feel that both in the opposition and the Voyageurs Party that the proper way to spend that tax is to make Commonwealthland better, more inclusive and a good place to live for everyone, not just the upper class. [Approbation]

5.4.4 Ms. M. Slack:I am not sure if I understand my learned friend correctly, however, the proposition that was put forward by the Independents did read in clause (c) that the Government should impose, not reallocate but impose.

5.4.5 Mr. J. Gillum:I will too be speaking against amendment 1 but in favour of amendment 2 because our Government believes that everyone should have a right to affordable and accessible housing and amendment 2 fulfils that need and makes things much better. But amendment 1 is talking about how to use the levy and is to use a Government scheme. Government schemes create bureaucracy, creates costs and this is something that we cannot do in our economy. We need to grow our economy and without the numbers we will end up giving free healthcare, free education, free housing. What is next?

5.4.6 Mr. T. Vahai:I would like to point out the point with regards to the imposing of the 10 per cent levy. Our amendment is on the issue with how that 10 per cent … rather the amendment that we just passed proposed by the opposition on increasing the 10 per cent to 15 per cent on commercial development, our amendment is on how to use that proposed levy that was put forth by the Independent Member and then we supported the increase in that levy proposed by the Opposition. Our concern is, how is that levy going to be used? We want that to be used on this scheme to fund

affordable housing for the minority and people who are not able to afford after these developments are held.

5.4.7 Mr. M. Burke:I believe our learned colleagues across the floor have somewhat confused themselves. They say they are committed to the plight of those less fortunate in our society but are not prepared or committed to fund the schemes that are going to make the change.

[12:00]

What I would ask is if you cannot provide an alternate solution, then you must be supporting this amendment. [Approbation]

5.4.8 Mr. B. White:I find it quite interesting, it is almost like this scary nightmare that the Government has created this crazy place that we should all be scared of, that provides healthcare or an education and spends the taxes we take from the people. It is horrific, I am shaking in my boots. No, I think I would just like to reiterate the fact that we are scared of this tax that has already been passed, so more than happy for you to speak about it. It has already been voted on. It is there, we are taking the money; it is there. We need to use it responsibly. Please, please, please, as a Government, do not get confused between the idea of fiscal responsibility and not opening your wallet. [Laughter] I have seen you at the bar, Mr. O’Neill, you have yet to open it yet. [Approbation] But I think that it is important to note this money is already here. We need to use it responsibly and amendment 1 is the right thing to do with that money. [Approbation]

Mr. K. O’Neill:May I respond to this comment, Mr. Presiding Officer?

5.4.9 Ms. E. Harry:In the interests of developing Commonwealthland there are certain things that need to be done to assure its development. Affordable housing for people who cannot afford it is one of those things. When the minorities or the less-wealthy class have affordable housing that is one less thing that they have to worry about, then they can focus on being productive citizens of Commonwealthland, which will in fact aid the economic situation in Commonwealthland, as it relates to the taxes that we will be imposing in the amendment to (c). This is a democratic jurisdiction. Commonwealthland is a democracy and I believe that we, the people, should be able to decide what we want the Government to do with the taxes that they are collecting; that should not be a matter for closed Chambers. In the interests of that, I am supporting this motion to allocate tax collected to those who are most in need of it. This is not a capitalist system. We believe that all should have free and equal opportunity. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Mr. O’Neill, I think you have already spoken on …

Mr. K. O’Neill:Just a quick point of clarification, Presiding Officer.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):A point of clarification …

Mr. K. O’Neill:Thank you very much and thank you, Mr. White, for that; that was brilliant. Some typical charisma from a …

Mr. B. White:You are very welcome, Mr. O’Neill.

Mr. K. O’Neill:Thank you very much. The Government have reviewed amendment 1 …

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Who are you seeking clarification from?

Mr. K. O’Neill:I am seeking clarification that amendment 1 is a free vote for Government Members and amendment 2 we will be supporting. Well, I appreciate that.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Yes, well I am sure the Minister will … [Approbation] That really is not pertinent to the amendment. I am sure the Government will have sorted out their … the whips will have sorted out what they intend to do. [Laughter] I am sorry, did you want to speak, Mr. Montegriffo?

5.4.10 Mr. M. Montegriffo:I just want to say I am sure we are all desperate for the loo and lunch, so can get on with the votes for the amendments, please?

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):As soon as the debate is concluded we will have the vote and then we can go to lunch but we have to finish the debate first.

5.4.11 Mr. B. Sawyer:As my honourable Member said, we do not want to create … sorry, I think I will start again. The idea of a utopia is amazing: free healthcare, free education, get free sustainable housing. I totally agree, let us do that but you are not really being realistic as to where this money is coming from. I understand that this tax, while we were against it, has now been put through. I will say that we are now in support of that particular tax going towards that cause for free housing. Amendment 2, again, we are for the housing. [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Time is moving on. We are running a little bit late because we were late with the media this morning but, nevertheless, particularly if Mr. Montegriffo wants to have his lunch, I will allow 2 more speakers, then ask Ms. Gwynn to sum up, if that is okay. Mr. Tualamali’i.

5.4.12 Mr. J. Tualamali’i:The Voyageurs wanted to say thank you to the Opposition for the leadership you have provided. [Approbation] Just to respond to some of the things we have heard from the Government: free housing, what is next? That was one of the questions proposed. I think what is next is hope [Approbation] and this is going to bring hope to Commonwealthland.

5.4.13 Mr. A. Jeffers:I thank you all for the comments and I really do like hope as well. [Laughter] Sadly, hope also needs money and I know that I sound like those grumpy old guys, money, money, money but, unfortunately, it is an important thing. The amendment (c) that was passed before, it is for the commercial development of non-brownfield sites. How much commercial developments would you really expect on top of greenfield sites now because of the levy? I doubt you would see a lot more commercial development or enough to go and be able to afford a whole tonne of people being able to go and get this affordable housing, well at least immediately. Because you would be stifling

the people, the commercial people who would invest inside the Commonwealthland. The 10 per cent tax rate, which did not pass, would have encouraged, at the very least, inside the Parishes of the brownfield sites. But now we are talking about the tax and so on and we are talking about, yes, we are going to get this new money but are you really sure? Are you really sure that you are going to encourage people to go and get … yes, come to these sites, you can get 15 per cent extra tax. No. You will not get as many people as you think you would. It is just wishful thinking. I like wishful thinking as well. I look at the reasons, so it is nice. But we really, really, really have to sit down and think, how exactly are we going to go and carry this out? We do not have to do this all immediately and that is something that we need to understand. We do not need to get everything immediately. We need to go and take steps to make sure that we can build up our economy and still build up the people. We are going to be discussing the health, as we said before, and imagine if we passed that as well, which probably will happen. But we really have to go and really think about it because if it was so easy, then why are not other small nations simply just putting it in? Even the biggest nations still are struggling with getting the healthcare or getting free education all the way up to tertiary level and so on. Just saying it and doing it or like seeing the results, I mean thinking about the future is what we really need to go and do. Thank you and, yes, enjoy your lunch.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you, Mr. Jeffers. I would now ask Ms. Gwynn to sum up.

5.4.14 Ms. S. Gwynn:I am really glad to hear that the Government will support our amendment 2 and that that will, hopefully, get all the votes to pass. I would just like to make a couple of points about amendment 1. This is a rent-to-buy scheme; that means that that money will be going back to the Government. People will be renting and buying, so that tax, 15 per cent, will end up back in the Government’s pockets. It is not an issue about spending the money, it will go back to the Government and be allocated. As my learned friend, Mr. White, said, the Government is scared about getting the money but not opening the wallet. They do not have to because that money will be coming back into their wallet. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you. How would you like the vote taken?

Ms. S. Gwynn:Separately.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Separately, okay. The vote is on amendment 1, the Voyageurs amendments and I ask the Greffier to open the voting. If all Members have had the opportunity to vote, I ask the Greffier to close the voting and I can announce that the amendment has been adopted: 39 votes in favour, 8 against and 2 abstentions. [INSERT VOTE TABLE] I ask the Greffier to reset the voting buttons. I will now vote on amendment 2. I will ask the Greffier to open the voting. If all Members have had the opportunity to vote, I will ask the Greffier to close the voting and I can announce that that amendment has been adopted: 47 votes in favour, one against and one abstention. [INSERT VOTE TABLE] [Approbation]

5.5 Planning - as amendedThe Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):We now move on to the debate on the proposition as amended. Does anybody wish to speak? Yes, Mr. Meissner.

5.5.1 Mr. J. Meissner:

I thank the House for the lively discussion we have had on this matter thus far. The Government has been cautious in our support of this proposition. Coming from generation rent, which I am sure includes the majority of my colleagues, we should all be very aware of the challenges that face young people in securing affordable housing. I, for one, am not willing to look my fellow young people in the eye and say to them that a patch of green land is more important than their right to affordable housing. I am also quite concerned about the connotation of the inverted commas around social housing in the report lodged by the sponsoring Independent Member, which struck me as classism veiled under a thin veneer of environmentalism. As a party that believes that the needs of our society are best served when private industry and free market are able to meet that demand as easily as possible, again, we are cautious of supporting a proposition that will seek to limit that. However, the Government are also astutely aware of the importance of maintaining the beauty of our Island; it is the primary reason why our tourism industry thrives and why we are able to attract investment and wealthy residents who play a key role in funding the generous public services society enjoys through the taxes that they pay. As a party of the common ground, we were pleased to be supporting the amendment brought forward by the Voyageurs Party that puts ensuring that housing developments are affordable and accessible for families and minority groups at the forefront of this proposition. As a Government, we are committed to economic growth and prosperity that is inclusive. The amendments proposed by the Government ensured that we struck a balance between preserving our beautiful natural landscape for future generations to enjoy, while ensuring that our current population, and particularly the young people of Commonwealthland, are able to access our housing market. Changing the process for approval of new building in the green zone from being a parliamentary decision to that of community-led groups prevents the politicisation of every single new development. However, the Opposition’s amendments that have been passed by this Assembly both stifle the opportunities for more housing development, effectively halting the supply, which can only mean higher housing and rental prices for our constituents. They speak about helping our society’s most disadvantaged but the unintended consequences of their policy fly in the face of this supposed principle of theirs. With the Opposition’s amendments passed the Government no longer feels that there is an appropriate balance between environmental preservation and maintaining an appropriate housing supply to ensure availability and affordability. As such, we will be voting against this proposition.

5.5.2 Mr. P. de Garis:I think I can sum it up all very quickly, do not worry everyone else. I think it is very clear today through the votes that have taken place that we are making a positive step forward here, to move towards a better Commonwealthland, not a Commonwealthland that focuses on the few and instead focuses on the many, in reality, not just in rhetoric. In that sense I think the policies that we have agreed collectively and, in a way, bipartisanly across the House today, working with our colleagues all over the political spectrum, we can say that this has been a positive step forward. I think that we can say that with the amendments passed that the opposition will be supporting this. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Thank you. Does anyone wish to speak on the proposition as amended? If not, I call on Mr. Reid to sum up. This is your proposition, Mr. Reid. You do not have to say anything if you do not wish.

Mr. J. Reid:Point of clarification, Mr. Speaker, I did not hear you just now, could you repeat?

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):You proposed the proposition, yes?

Mr. J. Reid:Yes, Sir.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Do you wish to sum up the debate?

Mr. J. Reid:No, Sir, no comments at this stage.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):No comment, that is fine. Thank you very much. We will then move to the vote. I ask the Greffier to open the voting. The vote is on the proposition as amended. If all Members have had the opportunity of voting, I ask the Greffier to close the voting. I can announce that the proposition has been adopted: 39 votes in favour, 9 against and one abstention. [INSERT VOTE TABLE] [Approbation]

[12:15]

Mr. A. Sogomonian:Point of clarification, Mr. Chair.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):Yes, Mr. Sogomonian.

Mr. A. Sogomonian:I am wondering before the House concludes its sitting if prior to commencement of this afternoon’s proceedings if you would provide some clarification on the following: if the emergency proposition that will be before the House this afternoon is adopted, I am wondering if the Opposition party will be asked to form a government. If the proposition is adopted, I am wondering if the House would adjourn immediately afterwards to allow the Opposition party to select who its Ministers will be. Lastly, if the proposition is amended, I am wondering if the Greffier would consider extending the 5.00 p.m. deadline for questions.

The Connétable of St. Clement (in the Chair):I will give consideration to those firstly but certainly if the proposition is successful, the leader of the Opposition will be asked if he can form a government and perhaps a 5-minute adjournment might be appropriate but I will make that decision later on. Thank you. Before we adjourn it is on the Order Paper, an amendment to the proposition on the Skills proposition has been lodged by Ms. Weaver and is on the Order Paper. We now stand adjourned until 3.30 p.m. this afternoon, I think. Thank you.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT[12:16]