27 -overcoming grief - maggie - teleclass - transcript

7/24/2019 27 -Overcoming Grief - Maggie - Teleclass - Transcript

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Copyright 2010 Madanes-Peysha Publishing

Reconnecting with what youve lost Maggie

Teleclass Transcript

MP: Mark PeyshaCM: Cloe Madanes

Rehime

GeorgeDennis

MP: All right everyone welcome to the teleclass. Today is the beginning of our Master

Unit on Grief and Resiliency. ow this may not seem to be the most !o!ular to!ic for!eo!le because it brings u! a lot of fear when we"re tal#ing of death and loss. $ut it"s anim!ortant thing% we are all grown&u!s% we #now that these things ha!!en and we always

e'!erience !eo!le who are going through a loss.

And this is one of the situations where you can really ma#e a huge difference to !eo!le

even if you are not on a coach situation because !eo!le get afraid around death and

around loss and grief issues. And it is very rare to fine someone who can really hel!

!eo!le (ust move forward in their lives and ma#e ) basically deal intelligently with thesituation. *o + thin# it is a huge ) also !eo!le ma#e huge life choices in the midst of

grieve and it"s the time that !eo!le really could use a lot of guidance.

*o anyway% let"s get started. + guess let us tal# about the central dilemma of grief ,uic#ly.

+ thin# that the central dilemma of grief is #nowing how to res!ond intelligently and

whole&heartedly to losing someone in your life. *o how do you that- And if the death isaccom!anied with any set of in(ustice% whether it is an accident or someone blamed the

death or there is neglect or there is a mis&diagnosis or if there is any ) even if there is (ust

unfinished emotional business if someone had a fight with the !erson before they died%this creates resistance and the grievers will feel li#e something still needs to be done and

it"s not clear what it is.

+n this case !eo!le can get stuc# with so called unresolved issues% which means that the!erson has not decided to com!lete the grieving !rocess. + don"t say com!lete the

grieving !rocess in a callous way% but there are stages that !eo!le go through and some

!eo!le lose the years or even decades of their life stuc#% not feeling (ustified% not feelingem!owered to actually live their lives after losing someone.

*o this Master Unit on grief% you will see how Tony was able to ta#e three such !eo!le%both in severe stages of grief and moved them on to the ne't stage of life before they can

be !roductive and healthy. *o today we are going to tal# first about the first stage ) the

five stages of grief% which were identified by /lisabeth 0ubler&Ross. These are great for

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understanding where someone is at and not only grief but any sort of a loss or ma(or life

shift% !eo!le go through these five stages so they had been very influential. And then we

are going to wal# through some of the ma(or ste!s that Tony too# with Maggie in theintervention and then we will ta#e your ,uestions% right- And 2loe% anytime if you have

anything to add% + am eager to hear it.

2M: *ure.

MP: 3ou may have heard of /lisabeth 0ubler&Ross who develo!ed the 4five stages ofgrief.5 *he wrote a boo# called 46n Death and Dying5 and she was a ma(or force behind

the hos!ice movement and basically the im!rovement of care towards !eo!le who are

dying in hos!ital environments. These five stages are really derived from the e'!erience

of !eo!le who were themselves are dying% which is somewhat different than from thee'!erience of those who have already lost someone. $ut these are ma(or !hases that

!eo!le go through when they are letting go of an attachment of some sort. *o in order to

broaden this a little bit% you can a!!ly these five stages to any form of the ma(or loss.

7hether it"s a !erson% a thing% a !osition% a !hase of life% a !rivilege that the !erson!reviously had% or even a marriage% or another relationshi!.

The first of these five stages is denial: 7hen we loose someone or something it doesn"t

register right away. 7e all have layers of emotional assum!tions that are built around our

relationshi!s and the im!ortant things in our lives. *o if you have any (ob or career thatyou held for some time for instance% you have an identity built around that (ob or career.

The same thing goes for anything or anyone that you de!end on for your identity% your

well being% your comfort and of course from meeting your needs.

*o this has #ind of have a nature% the need for certainty right% over the si' human needs%

this is certainty. 7hen you have it% you may not see it or recogni8e it. +t is #ind of

invisible. $ut it is li#e health% you don"t reali8e how much you need it until you don"thave it% right- 7hen something feel li#e it is a !art of you and then you lose it% it ta#es

time for your mind and body to register that and then to reali8e all the things that are

involved with that.

6ne ty!ical ) (ust an e'am!le: 6ne ty!ical form of denial comes u! when marriages

brea# u!. The !artners maybe angry and frustrated with each other and maybe even

loo#ing forward to being a!art and starting a new life and have fantasies about% 4Ah you#now% with my ne't thing% +"m going to have a totally different situation% right-5

9owever% it"s not often until they are actually se!arating or they have already se!arated

that they reali8ed the e'tent of what"s being undone the identity% the finances% thedivision of friends% the emotions and reactions of the children and family members. *o

while the cou!le is together% there is denial about what is s!litting&u! is actually going to

mean. And often this doesn"t register until one or both of the !artner starts to feel theselosses directly.

A similar thing ha!!en% /li8abeth 0ubler&Ross recogni8ed% with !eo!le when they are

first given their diagnosis. They thin#% 46h +"m going to beat this thing5 or they !ut on

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and say% 4This is bullshit% +"m getting a second o!inion. The first thing is not the end.5

This is also denial% it is healthy. 3ou have to reali8e it is a healthy form of res!onse% +t is

a health ) you thin#% 4Ah% ah. o% this can"t be true.5 And ta#es your system some timeto incor!orate some of the realities% right- *o when you start to you reali8e that there is

actually some loss that is going to be involved here and that ends ) es!ecially that they

may be irreversible% !eo!le go to the ne't !hase which is anger.

Anger is the signal that you"re running low on certainty and the loss is affecting your

need for significance. Anger is the way to recover significance and certainty ,uic#ly onthe !hysiological level. *o at this !oint the !erson grieving or threatened to have lost

theirs to thin# about how this ha!!ened and starts to blame. +n this case we"re tal#ing

about grieving% so we will tal# about that s!ecific thing. *omeone has died and you start

thin#ing% 46#ay so how did this ha!!en-5 $laming is a natural !rocess our brains sincewe"re children have this #ind of shortcut where immediately wonder who did this to us.

The e'am!le of a marriage brea#ing&u! (ust to continue that e'am!le% it is often after the

cou!le have se!arated% that ty!ically the husband reali8es everything that he is losing and

when he gets angry% he starts to blame the wife. That is when the se!aration often endsu! as very bitter and the battles occur% because both !artner is blaming each other and

trying to get something out of the feeling of blame.

+n the case of when you have someone who has lost someone% you try to understand how

this ha!!ened. 7e go bac#% we thin#% 49ow did this ) how could this !erson have died-5And we detect wea# decisions% bad (udgments% miscommunications% the little defects and

action that realistically they are ha!!ening around us every day. The world is full of

mista#es and small errors and im!recisions the one that leads to a death. All these

!roblems% all these lin#s in this chain are magnified. 3ou start to associate one !erson.3ou may start to thin# one !erson was associated with one of those actions.

Maybe that !erson ) had the !erson ) that !erson too# us to the wrong doctor or maybe itwas another family member caused the situation that caused ) that led to the death.

$lame becomes very dangerous at one !oint. They can be very destructive and you have

to be very careful about it bottom line it is !eo!le trying to find a meaning that will givethem certainty and significance. $ut at some !oint the !erson reali8es that they can"t

reverse the loss% they blame and ta#es us to ne't !ace which is bargaining.

ow in bargaining% you loo# for something that will change the situation. *o in 0ubler&Ross" stages were designed to understand !eo!le who were dying and since they were

still loo#ing ahead of what"s going to ha!!en ) + mean if you are dying you are still

thin#ing by your death in the future ) those fol#s are more li#ely to bargain and loo# for away out so they start to s!ea# with God. They start to loo# for different doctors. They

loo# for different o!tions. They thin# that they"re going to fight this out ) + mean they

ta#e on a fighting s!irit which is ) all these are healthy ways of res!onding to it. This is ahealthy nervous system% healthy brain thin#ing about how + am going to survive in this

situation.

+n this case% in grief we are tal#ing about the survivors of a death. And so !eo!le are

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bargaining about losing a life. They are bargaining about the meaning to give it. *o these

are the ,uestions: 7ho did it- 7hy did they do it- 7hy did all these circumstances

come together at the cost of death- 7hy did the deceased !ersons ma#e the decision theymade- And then you have a meta!hysical conversation: 7hy would God let this

ha!!en- 7hat did + do to deserve this- And in some cases you have a wish for revenge

or retribution% to give a lesson to the !erson who is res!onsible or to set u! a meaning that!uts you on the right% the other !erson in the wrong. These were !eo!le cut&off from their

family for instance. All these ,uestions are intensified because the !erson who is

grieving is still bargaining for a meaning that would give them some relief from theirloss.

*o the ne't !hase is De!ression. ow 0ubler&Ross used this term before it started being

used for fifty !ercent of the adult !o!ulation% but de!ression in this case% we are tal#ingabout the sadness of reali8ing that the !erson is not going to be brought bac#. This is a

very disa!!ointed time. +t is actually is a very confused time because for the first time

the !erson is giving in to the reality of a loss. 7hile they would surrender to that% they

tend to surrender all sorts of other things as well. *o for instance% someone may thin#" 4+lost my father and so +"m never going to be able to feel loved again.5 Right- 6r they say%

4+ lost my mother and + am never going to be able to a!!reciate these things that you gaveme.5 or 4+ lost my friend and +"m never going to be able to have fun again.5 or 4+"ve lost

my lover and +"m never going to feel loved again.5

+n de!ression we ac#nowledge the loss of the !erson which is correct and sometimes for

the first time they reali8e% 46h yes% +"m really going to lose this !erson.5 or 4+ have lost

this !erson.5 $ut then they draw conclusions which are incorrect. These incorrect

conclusions where we thin# about something will never ha!!en or something will alwaysha!!en or some other ) we create some conclusion in our minds that is final in nature.

The truth is that life #ee!s on moving and things will always change. 7hen !eo!le aredealing with the de!ression !hase% they don"t want to ac#nowledge that life goes on.

*ometimes they will shut everything down in their life% minimi8ing everything in their

life and sometimes even ma#ing their whole life (ust a shrine to the loss that they havee'!erienced% because they are not ready for change. *ometimes they don"t feel ) because

they didn"t bargain in the !revious !hase in a way that made them feel (ustified% they feel

that maybe they don"t deserve the rest of life.

The final !hase of 0ubler&Ross" stage is acce!tance. ow when she develo!ed this in

relation to !eo!le who are dying% acce!tance meant an acce!tance of your own death%

which brings humility in and a!!reciation and often the love and s!irituality to !eo!le. +nour case% when we"re tal#ing about grief% acce!tance means that you acce!t the reality of

the loss but you also see the loss more clearly. That yes% you lost this !erson or the

situation% but you don"t lose your entire future. 3ou see that life will go on and that youhave things to do and your have life worth living and things to loo# forward to.

Acce!tance is a healthy ) the #ind of a final healthy res!onse% according to this model.

ow a ,uestion we may as# here is whether these !hases are enough. 0ubler&Ross

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designed this for !eo!le who are confronting their own death% which ends in dying.

6bviously% !eo!le who have an entire life to live% after !rocessing their life have other

challenges that they need to meet and other things that they have to thin# about.

*o we believed strategic intervention that you need to lead that !erson% not only to

forgive themselves and others for the death and to reali8e the death% but also come to thereal meaning of death which is how you should live life. +f you loo# at how Maggie"s

intervention started it had been seven years since the death and she (ust made a ma(or

!rogress at the conference. *he said that she has started aligning her values so that shecould start feeling some (oy and some fun and that she could still give.

Ta#e a moment now and (ust ) if you are !resented with Maggie and as# yourself: 7hich

!hase of grief would she be in at this !oint- 7ould it be denial- 7ould it be ) what isthe ne't one- 7ould it be anger-

2M: Anger.

MP: +s it bargaining- +s it de!ression- 6r is it acce!tance- + would say !ersonally% +would say that she is (ust on the end of de!ression and (ust starting to feel acce!tance.

*he starts basically her brea#through that the life will go on% that she"s still ca!able of alife worth living and she"s saying that% 4+ can still give5 for instance. *o she"s still

struggling with that stage of self&blame and the feeling of failure as a mother.

=or the record% Maggie"s son died in a com!lete frea# accident% so it was one of those )

he was 1>% he loved motorcycle racing ) motorcycle. 9e had a motorcycle and he too#

care of it. 9e was in one of these storage !laces% li#e a storage garage !lace and he was

wor#ing on a motorcycle at night. 9e accidentally sur!rised some guy who was livingthere and that guy shot him. *o it wasn"t li#e Maggie could be blamed for neglecting her

son. + mean maybe he shouldn"t have been there% but it is #ind of a frea# accident. Tony%

(ust to start the intervention now% Tony as#ed her )

2M: 7as it considered an accident or murder-

MP: +t was actually ) the guy was not convicted% so there"s a huge in(ustice involved in

this.

2M: Really.

MP: 9e !leaded self defense or something li#e that. 3eah. *o on to! of that ) + mean all

of this grief stuff gets com!ounded when there"s a feeling of in(ustice. $asically% itsounds to me li#e Maggie had gone through a very intense grief for about a year and she

lost her marriage. $ecause for the husband he was a ste! son and so he didn"t associate

with her. 9e wasn"t com!assionate. *he s!ent years in this #ind of de!ressed !hase.$asically that is where she had been stuc# at the time that she started this intervention.

Tony started as#ing her about the facts% which you have to do. 9e as#ed her about her

child and learned that it was a 1>&year&old boy% so Tony ,ueried you #now% #ind of raising

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his eyebrows% 43ou feel res!onsible for !rotecting a 1>&year&old boy-5 *he res!onded%

43es% not consciously% but as a Mom% + did.5 Tony says% 46#ay% + get it.5 @et"s tal# about

the ste!s that Tony too# here. The first ste! is to understand the details of the death andalso to set some sense of what the rules are for the !erson and the meaning they brought

to the death.

*o in this case% Maggie felt that she should have been !rotecting him. Tony #ind of

,ueried that she ) because you have to understand the rules of the !erson has about the

meaning that they have created around us% because !eo!le are full of rules when it comesto this #ind of meanings. *o she feels res!onsibility% she basically gave u! years of her

life thin#ing that she was a failure because she failed to !rotect him. Tony was right to

give a little bit of resistance or ,uery to that% but then once she said% 4This is what + am

struggling with emotionally then said% 43es% + acce!t it.5 Then Tony basically understoodwhich of the five !hases that she was in.

The ne't ste! is: Understanding what the !erson is doing with the meaning that they have

created. 3ou want to understand the choices in what they would be doing if they were

not in this situation. 3ou also want to understand what needs are being met. *o whenTony as#ed her to remember ) basically Tony does not show this very much in this !hase

but it"s really im!ortant. 9e is very% very ,uic# and so he did not want to ta#e herthrough the si' human needs% but this is some !lace where you may really want to as#

them a little a little bit more about the meanings and 2loe% if you have any thoughts about

this: 9ow to interview someone so that you understand the circumstances of the deathand you get #ind of a read of where the !erson is at- + thin# the five ste!s of grief ) the

!hases of the grief are really good way to understand in general to understand where they

are in the !rocess.

2M: 3es. + would have as#ed more about the circumstances of the death and Maggie"s

life circumstances at that time. Tony doesn"t do that because sometime he"s concerned to

go too much into the !erson"s story in front of the audience. *ometimes he (um!s a littlebit. 7hen you"re wor#ing with someone individually% + would recommend really as#ing%

4Tell me what ha!!ened%5 and 47ho where you living with at that time-5 and 47ho were

you close to-5 and 49ow did this !eo!le react to the death and get all the circumstances-5

MP: 3eah. *o find out ) you have to e'!and the unit% you would understand what the

!ersons greatest resources are. 7ho is involved% who was blamed for the death-

2M: Right.

MP: 7hat was done about the death% li#e for instance in Maggie"s case.

2M: 3es and what the !erson went through% because in this case% in Maggie"s case there

must have been a !olice investigation that made it all the worst% all the more gainful% soyou have to find out all those things. At Tony"s level of e'!erience he can (um! through

those stages but + recommend going through all that.

MP: 3es. 3ou have to remember when you watch Tony that he is #ind of li#e a movie

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director or a !lay director because he has to #ee! the story moving forward. 9e has a lot

of e'!erience.

2M: $ut also after so much e'!erience as he has with situations li#e this% he (ust

imagines what ha!!ened and doesn"t need to #now the details. *ometimes that"s good

because when you as# about the details ) that is another reason that Tony doesn"t li#e toas# about the details is that% when you as#ed about the details you !ut the !erson right

bac# at the worst moment of their grief.

MP: 3es.

2M: Then you have more trouble bringing them out of that. Tony !refers to (ust imagine

the details% not as# about them and move forward% which is something that + would doalso if + feel that + can understand anyway without getting to #now the details.

MP: 3eah. +t is #ind of li#e ) + thin# Tony reali8es that the story is almost li#e a little

movie that you can !ut that !erson through and it will cause them !ain.

2M: And you !ut them bac# right in there is li#e a hy!notic induction right bac# there inthe middle of the movie.

MP: 3eah. *o basically he got enough and that is why ) this where !eo!le as# a lotabout !attern interru!tion and so forth and this where he uses !attern interru!tion. 9e

wants to introduce humor into it as ,uic#ly as !ossible and teasing and ,uestioning that is

li#e good humored ,uestioning. 7hen he says% 43ou thin# that you are in charge of a 1>&

year&old boy- 3ou are !rotecting him-5 *he ac#nowledges that. That hel!s give li#e anBinaudibleC of the story a little bit ) given it little more lightness so it doesn"t go in the

usual trac#.

At this !oint Tony too# her to the ne't stage% which is: To remember a fulfilling memory

of the !erson. *o when Tony as#ed her to remember something different about her son%

something ) basically he wanted to ta#e her thin#ing about the son% focusing on the sonin a different way than usual. 3ou thin# of a fulfilling memory. Usually when !eo!le are

thin#ing about someone who they lost% they are thin#ing ) they are in a sense of

de!rivation and they are thin#ing of unfulfilling memories% li#e it is all colored by the

loss.

+nstead Tony as#ed her what is it ) one of the funniest things the son had ever said to

Maggie. This is !erfect for a teenage son. 9e could see that she he had been a hugesource for love for her and so forth. *he said that the son had said% 4Are you going out

li#e that-5 Tony gave her son"s ) Tony did a brilliant thing here. 9e gave the son"s word

a com!letely sur!rising meaning. 9e told Maggie% 46h he"s tal#ing about your life forthe last eight years.5

This is a brilliant because instead of critici8ing her grief ) !eo!le who are in grief are

e'tremely touchy about their right to have their grief and they do have the right to have

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their grief. $ut it ma#es it very difficult for !eo!le to hel! them go on because !eo!le

feel they are !rotective of their ability to grieve for !eo!le who lost. +nstead of activating

her defenses by critici8ing her grief% Tony said this criticism through the voice of her sonand as a (o#e and as the son"s (o#e. +t com!letely avoided any defensive reaction. *o +

thin# remembering a fulfilling memory is really im!ortant because it !uts the !eo!le)

2M: @et me e'!lain that a bit more clearly% as + said !eo!le get it but anyhow (ust in

case. Maggie was visuali8ing her son"s saying% 4Are you going to go out li#e that-5

Meaning the way she was dressed. Tony reframed this to mean% in the !resent now% sevenyears or eight years after his death or whatever it was% it meant% 4Are you going to go on

living li#e this-5

MP: 3es.2M: 6r% 4Presenting yourself to the world li#e this-5

MP: 3es. Than# you for ma#ing that clear. 9e com!letely reused ) he totally reused the

words that the son had used.

2M: Right% right.

MP: 3eah% great. The ne't ste! is: To intelligently introduce the ,uestion of what would

the deceased !erson really want for you- ow% this is difficult% because again% when!eo!le are feeling loss they often feel li#e no one else is going to understand and it"s true.

Unless you had e'!erience with some forms of loss% it is very difficult to understand the

de!ths of it.

$ut the truth is that the !erson needs to ma#e a change. +n E of cases the deceased

would have wanted the !erson who"s grieving to be ha!!y. Tony used ) and +"m going to

re!eat Tony"s words here because they are so good. 9e said that% it is basically is a waythat Tony trained himself so that he was not (udging her% that he recogni8ed the way he

didn"t understand about her and he feels to his e'!erience or lac# of e'!erience. 9e said%

4*ometimes it"s interesting to ste! out of yourself and sto! thin#ing that you are most ).59e was tal#ing about Maggie"s sense of blaming herself. 9e says% 4+t is interesting to

ste! out yourself and sto! thin#ing that you"re the most !owerful force in the universe.5

There is lot of ego in that you"re not an egotistical woman.

4*ometimes when you lose something% there"s a great source of love for us ) the way we

connect for ourselves is through !ain. As horrible as this situation maybe and + have not

lost one of my children% so + can only imagine. +"m not belittling it in anyway% but + also#now what you"re ca!able of. *ometimes the first three months% si' months even two

years there is so many anchors% there is so many !laces% it is hard to find that meaning.

$ut it is im!ossible to find the meaning when it becomes an addiction with yourself andfor you to meet your own ability to connect with yourself and somebody who is always

ta#ing of everybody else% it is even harder to give yourself that !ermission.5 A somewhat

confusing word and is !robably intentionally confusing% he is basically trying to ta#e her

to the !oint where she is recogni8ing that there may be other o!tions. *o he as#ed her%

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47hat would the son thin# about where you are at-5 *he said that the son would feel

tormented.

The ne't ste! ) fifth ste! is: Tony introduces a s!iritual connection with the deceased.

*o he finds out from the !erson% do they believe in God- And do they believe in the love

ones still has e'istence- +t is very im!ortant as always with strategic intervention tounderstand the !ersonal beliefs systems and what"s im!ortant to them. +n this case% she

believes in God and she believes in the hereafter. *o Tony felt comfortable bringing the

son"s !resence into the room. $asically he ta#es the !erson who has been !erceived asbeing lost all this time and ) he ta#es a little bit of a liberty. 9e says% 43ou can now feel

him in front of you right now.5 7hen the !erson does that% that is a com!lete 4!attern

interru!t5 because they are allowing themselves ) someone who is basically telling them

to re&e'!erience the !erson they have lost as a someone who is !resent there% still in thereal time relationshi! with them. +t"s very !owerful when Tony does it. This one of those

things where ) if you can do this for the !erson then you are really doing some interesting

wor#% it can really hel! them.

The si'th ste! is: isuali8ation and the !hysical e'ercise. 9e too# her through a

gratitude and breathing and he as#ed her to go basically into herself and breathe and feelgrateful for her breath. 7e have been familiar with this #ind of visuali8ation. Then he

as#ed to hear the advice that the deceased !erson is giving her. 9e also is very s!ecific

that whatever advice ) she does not have to say that loud. *he had to hear it directly fromthe !erson and it needs to be ) the advice must absorbed into every !art of the body.

7hat he is doing here% he is trying to !hysically immigrate ) first all the feeling that the

!erson is still alive ) it is not that alive but is !resent to them in some way% all right-$ecause Maggie believes in that sometimes it ta#es someone else to give you !ermission

to feel the !resence of the !erson and then as#ed that !erson for the advice.

And so the seventh ste! is: As#ing what that is. $asically what you"re loo#ing for is the

directive for the !erson for the ne't !hase of their life. 7hen it comes from the !erson

who is deceased it is ) Usually the reason that !eo!le feel that they can"t move on% one ofthe reasons that they do it for an e'tended !eriod of time is they don"t feel (ustified in

moving on. They feel li#e% 49ow can + do this when + lost this !erson- + can"t (ust live% +

feel selfish.5 $ut when the !erson who is deceased is as#ing you to live life the way you

should be living it then you have to res!ect their re,uest. +n this case% it came from theson. 2loe% you #now other times you might as# another family member to hel! the

!erson.

2M: + #now that some !eo!le are thin#ing% 47hat if the !erson doesn"t believe in God-

MP: That"s right.

2M: 6r doesn"t believe in the after life. 7hat + do in those circumstances is that + would

say to her that his s!irit still lives inside of her. 9e is still alive inside of her because they

were so close together because she is his mother they share the same genetic code. They

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share so many of the same memories and so many of the same e'!eriences and so he is

still inside her. *o what would she want her to do- 9ow would he want her to live- *o

you can do it in the same way without a belief in God or the after life.

MP: 6#ay% great.

2M: This is the truth this is the truth. 7e all carry inside us all the !eo!le that we are

related to% everyone that we have memories together or that we shared biology with.

/veryone that we have memories together or that we share biology with.

MP: 3es% and + thin# if you too# an MR+ to someone when they"re visuali8ing someone

that they"ve #nown versus when they"re with that !erson% it would be a much more

similar MR+ when you can !ut yourself in that state.2M: That"s right. 3es.

MP: +t is literally the same state as being with the !erson.

2M: /'actly.

MP: The main thing that was that !eo!le often feel when they"re in grief that that !erson

is alive but they don"t feel (ustified in really en(oying it because they"re confused. They

haven"t come to resolution about how they really feel.

2M: 6r you thin# it"s not en(oying it% you thin# their guidance.

MP: /'actly% or doing what they would want to do. *o% for instance% you want to focuson the love that you had with that !erson or retribution that you could to other !eo!le-

9ow do you focus on the value of the !erson who you lost-

2M: 3es. Mar#% you"re brea#ing u!

MP: Right. *witch BH:;H:?F audio brea#C. Do you hear me-

2M: 3es. *ay something again. +t sounded far away.

MP: Do you hear me-

2M: 3es% yes.

MP: 6#ay. + a!ologi8e% guys. 7e"re going to switch off this !hone system.

2M: Are you there-

MP: 3es. @et me chec# the webcast and ma#e sure that we"re hearing everybody.

2M: 6#ay.

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MP: 6#ay. +t loo#s li#e we"re good. +f you loo# at Tony"s thera!y series he"s using the

authority of the !erson who"s been lost and he"s allowing that !erson to first of all% be!resent with the griever and secondly% you owe that !erson something for the

relationshi!.

*o% he ma#es the demand of the !erson who says% 47hat would they want you to do-5

*ometimes% if the !erson stands for something% you find out what the deceased !erson

really stood for% and you can do that in their honor. That"s how you honor the !erson.

2M: Another way that + do it and this a!!lies to not (ust to when you lose somebody to

death but when you lose a s!ouse or a !artner. + say they didn"t ta#e your love with them.

3our love is still within you and your love continues to be something that you can give toothers. *o% the issue now is how can you channel that love- That"s% also% very hel!ful to

!eo!le% not (ust in grieving for a dead !erson but in grieving for a relationshi!.

MP: Perfect. 6#ay. *o% + guess the last !hase of this intervention was a little differentthan what you may do. $asically% Tony wanted to ta#e her another further ste! and he did

a visuali8ation. 3ou basically visuali8e yourself that you are in a race. Then% you reali8ethat you win the race and the race is that you are a s!erm going towards an egg. +t"s

somewhat of humorous visuali8ation. Tony does it% basically% when he"s wor#ing with

someone who"s very o!!ositional or is stubborn or is used to resisting !eo!le in terms oftheir advice or resisting advice from them to change and so% he did this. +t is somewhat of

a disorientation hy!nosis strategy.

7hat it does is that it reorients the !erson in terms of who they"re o!!osing% good andbad% victory and failure and what"s right and wrong. +magine yourself as a s!erm that

made it to the egg and initiali8ed. +t gives Tony !lace the big victory !rior to your own

birth.

Then% from that !oint% you feel li#e everything since has been a gift and is to be

a!!reciated. +t"s not something that you would have to deal with. +t"s #ind of anadvanced techni,ue% but it"s interesting.

2M: There"s a funny movie by 7oody Allen li#e that.

MP: 3es% e'actly ) 4/verything 3ou 7anted to 0now about *e'.5

2M: 3es. I@aughterJ

MP: =unny. 2loe% let"s tal# about some ways that you hel! !eo!le. These are the ste!s

that Tony too# in this intervention and there are% definitely% some good ste!s thateveryone can use% but there are also some more sim!le attitudes and some more sim!le

ways that you can hel! !eo!le without ta#ing them through the ste!s.

2M: + thin# + (ust gave them. + would also have them visuali8e the !erson and get the

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advice and + would find a way to do this% no matter what the religious belief or no

religious belief.

Another strategy that + discovered when my mother was grieving for my father was very

interesting because my mother was in terrible grief. *he (ust could not sto! crying. *he

cried all the time and had been days and days li#e that. They were friends with theambassador from +ndia to Argentina. *o% the wife of the ambassador came to visit and to

!ay her condolences% and saw how my mother was so distraught and couldn"t sto! crying.

*he said to my mother% 43ou have to sto! crying. +n +ndia% we believe that when you

hold on li#e that% his soul cannot move to where it has to go. 3ou"re holding him bac#.

3ou"re hurting him. 3ou have to let him go%5 and she immediately sto!!ed. +t was

beautiful to see. *he totally acce!ted this belief that was not her religious belief at all andshe said% 43ou"re right. +"m holding him bac#. +"m not going to cry anymore%5 and she

sto!!ed.

MP: 7ow.

2M: +"ve used that many times since. +t"s a wonderful way of dealing with that.

MP: 3es. That"s% actually% very close to being universal belief% + thin#% in many cultures.

2M: + had not heard it before so + was very im!ressed. + was sitting ne't to her when

this lady said this. All right. Maybe% we can ta#e some ,uestions or comments- + thin#

that we had a bit of a confusion here% Mar#. + was under the im!ression that we were

doing both Maggie and Gary. *o% we"re doing (ust Maggie.

MP: 3es.

2M: 6#ay.

MP: 7e are doing (ust Maggie. *omebody BH:;>:;F +naudibleC for that to ha!!en.

2M: 6#ay. All right.

MP: 2loe% do you have some-

2M: + have some ,uestions in writing here that are not really about this. These are some

,uestions that were sent before% so they"re on other to!ics mainly.

MP: *ure.

2M: @et me see here% and we can ta#e some live ,uestions.

MP: 3es% absolutely. +f anyone has ,uestions% go ahead and !ress star&two.

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2M: 6#ay. This is a comment from somebody who lost her father and at the same time%

lost her (ob and then% a short time later% lost the ne't (ob through no fault of her own. *o%

+ thin# that all that we (ust have e'!lained a!!lies to this situation. + don"t have anythingmore to add. +t"s (ust that% often% it seems to wor# li#e this ) that when something bad

ha!!ens% it comes in threes.

MP: 3es.

2M: *o% + ho!e that the three things are over now and that you can move forward.

MP: 3es. $y the way% + believe in tough stretches. + believe that sometimes% you will

(ust get one tough thing after another.

2M: Right.

MP: $asically% the good news is that it all is going to change. Kust li#e you can get a

really tough month or a tough year% then later on% you"ll have a really good month% areally good year. *o% the !oint is to use the tough times. + thin# what"s really im!ortant

also is% in general% with grief% grief has to be your ) and losses and challenges li#e these%it has to be your teacher. 3ou have to o!en u! and reali8e that the life that we live in the

west is ) + mean !eo!le say this but we"re in the to! ?E of ,uality of life and !eo!le are

suffering all the time. 7hen you have e'!erience of suffering% you have to remember allthe other !eo!le.

2M: 3es.

MP: +f you can ta#e it on with a consciousness that other !eo!le have been suffering

when you were having a good time% other !eo!le will be suffering later on when you"ll

have a good time but now you can be in sync and understand what some of human beingshave to go through. Then% it will dee!en you as a !erson. *o% + would recommend that.

*ometimes% when you go through a tough time that"s about to teach you how to ta#e careof yourself and how to survive it but it"s also how to understand the !light of other !eo!le

because the bottom line ) !eo!le gain de!ths from challenges li#e these. Peo!le gain

de!th from losses. 3ou have to ta#e that o!!ortunity to educate yourself when that

ha!!ens.

2M: 3es. All right. 6n a lighter note% here is a ,uestion by atasha. *he was wor#ing

with a young man for an'iety disorder% an eating disorder and then% he had a homose'uale'!erience with someone and said that it was because he was com!letely drun#. + don"t

want to go into the details% but + don"t thin# that being drun# is an e'cuse for this.

9e"s also concerned because he says that his girlfriend is too se'ual% and this is a young

man who is


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really are% what his feelings really are towards same se'% o!!osite se'% and ma#e a

decision.

6f course% for some !eo!le% it"s a deliberate decision that they ma#e and + thin# that for

some !eo!le% it"s com!letely determined biologically. $ut for some !eo!le% it"s (ust truly

a choice. + thin# you have to hel! him choose what he wants to be.

MP: Also% it seems li#e more and more% younger generation is much more fle'ible about

this going bac# and forth% at least at this !hase. Many !eo!le in their twenties aree'!erimenting both ways without ma#ing it a !ermanent decision.

2M: Right.

MP: That"s fine. They"re creating their own culture. +t"s a large grou! of !eo!le in their

twenties right now. *o% they have their ways of as#ing something and BH: +naudibleC

bac# if they need to and you don"t have to ma#e any final (udgments about it ) in the case

if there"s someone in their twenties.

2M: 3es. +n general% whenever + thin# that it"s !ossible% + encourage !eo!le towards theheterose'ual life because usually% it"s an easier life in most countries% in most !laces ) not

necessarily always. *ometimes% it"s so wrong for the !erson that you cannot do that ty!e

of encouragement.

*he has another case. A 1&year&old girl that loo#s very difficult with self&harm issues

but she also had drug issues and from the #ind of behavior% trying to hang herself in

!ublic and then% not remembering what she did. This #ind of stuff seems very drug&induced to me. *o% + would have her regularly tested for drugs. 6bviously% whatever

drugs she was using% she has the hy!ersensitivity. They have a very bad effect on her.

Unless she"s com!letely clean and you have the certainty from the lab ) not from her andher family% but from the lab ) you really will not #now what"s going on with her. Then%

of course% + would wor# with her family because she also has two disturbed sisters. *o% it

de!ends. 3ou have to get involved in this and the e'tended family.

MP: The really im!ortant !oint about strategic intervention is that our belief system is

that you can use !eo!le"s !hysiology and it"s a really im!ortant !art of understanding

someone. +f that !erson is on drugs or at an altered state because of chemical things )+"m tal#ing about illegaldrugs% then it"s very difficult to wor# with them the same way.

3ou have to have someL

2M: 3ou can"t wor# li#e that. Under the influence of drugs% you really cannot wor# with

someone.

MP: +f you sus!ect that there is drug use% you really need that !erson to be clean or li#e

2loe said% you need to !rove IH:


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2M: 3ou"re not tal#ing to the real !erson and unfortunately% that also often ha!!ens

when the !erson is on legal drugs li#e medication.

MP: 3es.

2M: All right. Those are the ,uestions that + have in writing. Do we have any live,uestions-

MP: 7e have a lot of ,uestions. 7e have some more ,uestions. @et"s go to some liveones on the !hone and then% have some written ones from the webcast as well.

2M: 6#ay. 3ou"re not clear% Mar#. The !hone is not clear.

MP: All right. George-

George: 3es% sir. 2an you hear me-

2M: 3es.

George: 9i% guys. + had the e'!erience of the death of my mother. =irst% +"m an out of

the closet atheist so each have a com!letely% different meaning for me. + (ust wanted to

as# you if + was correct with my assum!tions that + was throwing a !arallel% also whatTony says about de!ression that it"s a com!letely% selfish feeling. + was doing some

intros!ection with my mother"s death and + found out that everything that + was feeling

was about me. That% !retty much% !ulled me out of any feelings of de!ression% and +

understood that it was me.

2M: 3es. Than# you. Than# you so much for reminding me of this. Than# you. This is

really very im!ortant. 7hen you get stuc# on de!ression% you really are in a very selfishsituation. 7hat you have to do as a coach is guide the !erson to understand the

selfishness of that and towards hel!ing others that may be suffering more. Does that

ma#e sense-

George: 3es% + understand. 6f course% + was going to as# a ,uestion how to modify the

!rocess to come of an atheist and nonbelievers but you s!o#e about that a little bit and +

don"t #now if there is any other thing in which we couldL

2M: 7hat you (ust !ointed out is !erfect. De!ression is always self&centered and

egotistical. =or e'am!le% one of the things that + did in that situation ) the e'am!le that +was tal#ing about my mother ) + totally focused on hel!ing my mother and that hel!ed

me to overcome the level of grief that + had because + thought that her situation was

worse% and + hel!ed my brother and sister. *o% that"s what you do with the !erson whenyou"re not going into the s!iritual #ind of a!!roach. 3ou can go into the 43ou don"t

want% really% to be selfish in this situation%5 #ind of a!!roach. Does that ma#e sense-

George: That"s !erfect. Than# you very much.

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2M: 6#ay. Than# you for the comment.

MP: + would add to that also that one of the strengths of the atheist !osition is that then

really% your actions are everything. This is the only life and you die and then% there"s no

coming bac#. Then% your actions right now are that much more im!ortant and that"sactually% how you do #ee! alive the good actions of other !eo!le who have !assed on.

That is how you"re really memoriali8ing this ta#ing action.

George: Absolutely. Than# you% Mar#. Than# you% 2loe.

2M: 6#ay. Than#s.

MP: 6#ay. 7e have another live ,uestion. + don"t see where you"re from ) on the

!hone- 3es% will you raise your hand-

Dennis: 9i. 2an you hear me-

MP: 3es.

Dennis: 9ello. +"m Dennis from $ra8il-

2M: 9i.

Dennis: 2an you hear me-

2M: 3es% + can hear you.

Dennis: + would li#e to as# about ) Tony said that he never lost a child so he could onlyimagine the !ain% the grief. + wonder% in general% when you have not !assed through the

same situation that the !erson% and es!ecially when you"re not a thera!ist% what #ind of

tools can you use to hel! the !erson-

2M: + thin# that"s e'actly the way what Tony did. 3ou can always say% 4+ have not had

that situation but + can imagine it. /ven in my imagination% + !robably can"t really

understand the de!th of what you are going through.5 That"s a !erfectly fine a!!roach.7e cannot have the e'!erience that everybody else does.

Dennis: Right.

2M: Does that ma#e sense- Mar#% do you want to add anything-

MP: + thin# that"s !erfect. 7hat !eo!le don"t li#e when they"re going through tough

times is that other !eo!le ma#ing it seem li#e it"s an easy thing% li#e an easy solution so

they don"t want to demean. Peo!le who have cancer don"t want to hear !eo!le saying

that they should (ust manifest a healthy body or that they should ta#e some herbs. Peo!le

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who have (ust lost someone don"t want to hear that they should (ust sna! out of it and

move on with life or that they"re being selfish or whatever. Peo!le who are struggling

with finances don"t want to hear that you should (ust get a (ob and do something.

3ou don"t want to sim!lify the situation% so !art of showing the !erson em!athy is

showing res!ect for the difficulty of their situation. Then% once you"ve done that% the!erson does ac#nowledge that you understand the difficulty% you can introduce o!tions

that are in their own interest% from their own !ers!ective that would hel! them.

2M: 3es.

Dennis: Great% great. Than# you.

2M: Than# you. Than# you for that ,uestion.

MP: Any other ,uestions by !hone- Please !ress star two. 7e have a ,uestion here. 4+

have a friend that was in a tragic accident. *he was driving and her cousin was in the co&!ilot seat. They"re driving at night and didn"t see a truc# they crashed into. The cousin

died in front of her eyes. /ver since then% she doesn"t li#e tal#ing about it. All her family#nows that is she"s still suffering% but she denies that. 9er family had her try to go to a

!sychologist or !sychoanalyst% but she denies she has a !roblem. + can tell and her

family% too% that she blames herself. + #new% too% that some of the members of her familyblame her% too% still. *o% the to!ic in the family has become a taboo. 9ow can + hel!

her-5 Great ,uestion.

2M: 3es% this is so difficult. + thin# this is a friend. + thin# that you can offer% su!!ort%friendshi!% and create a situation where she can trust you and you can slowly hel! her to

go through the different stages of grief. +t sounds that she is in denial. *he"s strongly in

the denial stage.

MP: 3es. + thin# it"s im!ortant for !eo!le to feel that there"s something they can do.

There"s some action that can be ta#en. *o% finding outL

2M: +f she could do something in honor of the cousin or the !erson that died% that would

be good. +f you could instead of BH:?;:H audio brea#C (ust say that it would be a good

idea to do something in honor of that !erson. =or e'am!le% on the anniversary of theirbirthday% to do a s!ecial% charitable thing% a s!ecial donation% a s!ecial event% give for

some cause that the !erson might have or wanted to hel! in.

MP: 3es. The number one mista#e that !eo!le ma#e in relation to death or grieving is

that a life may be terminal% that !erson may be gone but your ability to ta#e action did not

die with that !erson. +t is not terminal. There"s always another action to ta#e. There"salways another !erson to hel!.

There"s always something that you can do ) hel!ing your friend find something that

would be meaningful for her and to honor her friend with some form of a re!aration.

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Most !eo!le can usually find one that there"s something that they could do that would be

useful that would be welcomed by the !eo!le% or that would be meaningful to themselves.

2M: 3es.

MP: 7e have a ,uestion here. 49ow could you use strategic intervention when tal#ingto someone who believes that their illness is eminently fatal- +s there anything that you

could do to assist that !erson in this difficult situation-5

2M: 7ell% yes. @isten to their wishes% hel! them to discover what they would li#e to do

before they die% what they would li#e to leave behind not (ust in terms of material ob(ects

but what is their ideology that they want to leave behind% the advice and hel! them go

through the stages that you described% Mar#.MP: 3es. $asically% the five stages are really good road ma!% s!ecifically for that

situation because that"s where there were. +f you understand basically% in all the stages%

you have to have com!assion for the !erson but if they"re in denial% they need to !rocess

the situation until the !oint where they are going to feel anger because they"re going to bewo#en u! to the fact that it"s really ha!!ening.

7hen they go to the ne't !hase which is bargaining% then% we"re loo#ing for !ositive

meaning and that"s a !lace where you can really hel! them ) not find a meaning that will

get them out of the situation of death but you can hel! them find the !ositive things thatthey can do.

+n that way% + thin# you can hel! them through the de!ression stage where they"re feeling

the loss but they can also be focusing on other !eo!le they can hel! or some action thatthey can ta#e. Peo!le usually have !eo!le who they care about they"re going to leave

behind. *o% try to hel! them do something meaningful for those other !eo!le. $e good.

2M: 3es.

MP: All right. @et me see if we have any ,uestions here.

2M: + remember that when + had my institute% we had a situation where a father had a

brain tumor% and the son had develo!ed the !roblem since school. *o% what the thera!ist

did was she #e!t the father wor#ing on the son"s !roblems in school and hel!ing the sonwith the learning and hel!ing him deal with his teacher until the very day that he died.

9e had meaning in life until the last minute.

MP: 3es% + thin# what"s really im!ortant for !eo!le to understand when they"ve been

given advance notice of their own death is that it"s a !recious thing because you have all

these things that you can do for other !eo!le.

2M: That"s right.

MP: 3ou have all these other o!!ortunities that !eo!le who die instantly. +t"s li#e a

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closed boo#. The !eo!le who are grieving over someone who died suddenly without any

chance to reconcile or communicate have a totally different grief !rocess from someone

who"s had the time to s!end time with a !erson who"s dying. They"ve had a chance tocommunicate% clear u! any misunderstandings and share their love at a dee!er level than

they could have basically before they were dying.

7hen you"re in these final stages% you have access to levels of emotion and also

a!!reciation and also s!iritual develo!ment that are not accessible to other !eo!le who

thin# that they"re going to live another ;H%


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2M: + thin# that this was a later research after 0ubler&Ross.

MP: *o% what would you recommend the !erson whose dying could basically hel! teach

those !eo!leL-

2M: o% they"re not dead yet. Tal# to them. obody #nows e'actly the moment of their

death. *o% #ee! active with them. 0ee! listening and interchanging and so on. There"s a

tendency to !ull away before the !erson actually dies.

MP: Peo!le get sic#. Peo!le tend to !ull away from things that are frightening to them.

2M: That"s right. That"s right.MP: They e,uate the !erson who"s suffering from something with disease that they"re

suffering from% right-

2M: That"s right.

MP: 6#ay. 7e have another live ,uestion. Rahime-

Rahime: 9i% 2loe. 9i% Mar#.

2M: 9i% Rahime.

Rahime: 9i% everybody. +"m not sure e'actly how +"m going to articulate it but (ust bear

with me. 3ou #now my eldest brother was murdered at the hands of the +raniangovernment about ;H years ago. +"ve gone through the B1:H1:


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something that"s going on in their home country or some member of their family or what

not and it retriggers this rage of hel!lessness because it"s com!letely out of their control.

+"ve dealt with it in a rowdy% different way thera!eutically% but +"m (ust curious of theculture. Are there anything that comes to your mind that would be hel!ful techni,ues to

utili8e with them-

2M: 3es. + thin# it would be im!ortant to have a ritual% something that is strong and

dramatic so when the trigger ha!!ens% it means that the family% your !arents% whoever it is

that gets triggered has to do an act that is ritualistic% that is significant. Maybe% + don"t#now ) write a letter to the United ations% write to the !oliticians in the country or

outside of the country. Do some action that signifies a fight for (ustice in this case. *o

that you #now% that when they"re triggered% this is what they"re going to do. There is

something that they want to do and that they can do and they will do this.Rahime: To em!ower them.

2M: 9el! other young men in that situation% even though their son cannot be hel!ed.

They will do this in his honor.

Rahime: 3es% to em!ower them to ma#e a I2ross&tal#ingJ.

2M: 3es% it em!owers them that they"re doing something instead of (ust being triggered

in their anger or their grief.

Rahime: 3es. + can totally see that wor#ing actually% even in the ritual of (ust writing it

and sending it even if you don"t follow u! to see where it goes% but that action orientation

really% really em!owering them out of that stage.

2M: That"s right. Absolutely.

Rahime: That"s a great suggestion. Great suggestion. Than# you so much.

MP: +n(ustice is one of the hardest things for !eo!le to heal from because it triggerssome stubbornness in the human mind that !eo!le thin#% 4+"m not going to !artici!ate.

+"m not going to change anything. This is an un(ust% unfair situation.5

$ut the truth is that in(ustice has a !arado' to it because in(ustice ha!!ens when someoneis turning their bac#% right-

2M: 3es.

MP: Then% when you suffer from in(ustice% someone has turned their bac# on someone

that you love or someone on you% whoever it is% right- *o that in(ustice is to ha!!en. $utthen% !eo!le get obsessed with their own in(ustice and they don"t thin#. 7ow.

+n(ustice is universal. There are other in(ustices that are ha!!ening right now. +"m (ust

focusing on the one that ha!!ened to me H years ago. +"m turning my bac#. +t"s obvious

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that these are ha!!ening right now.

2M: /'actly.

MP: There"s always an action that can be ta#en. They can find something that"s

meaningful to them% but there are !eo!le who are suffering right now. +n(ustice isha!!ening right now and so% there"s always an o!!ortunity to ) there may not be a chance

to go bac# ;H years or whatever amount of time and fi' the in(ustice that ha!!ened to you

but there"s always an o!!ortunity to fi' in(ustice or fight in(ustice.

2M: 3es.

Rahime: Awesome.2M: +t"s a very% dee! sense in human beings. + need to correct% Mar#% something that +

taught in a !revious class that was wrong. +t"s not com!letely unrelated% although a little

unrelated but +"m an'ious to correct it.

MP: 3es.

2M: Anyway% than# you Rahime. @et me e'!lain this now. +s that o#ay% Mar#-

MP: 3es% absolutely. +f + can add one thing to what + (ust said% Rahime. + reali8ed that+"m sounding li#e +"m lecturing a little bit and it"s im!ortant not to lecture !eo!le who are

suffering from in(ustice. 7hat you want to do is you want find% elicit it #indly from what

their own belief systems of what they could !ossibly still do. 3ou #now what + mean-

Rahime: Right. Absolutely.

MP: 3ou don"t want to be waving and wagging this finger at anyone who"s in grief. That(ust doesn"t wor#.

Rehime: Right.

2M: 6#ay. 7hat + wanted to correct is that in a !revious class% + said that there"s only

two animals that ta#e care of their elderly ) the stor# and the !enguins. 7ell% that is old

research. + (ust read u! this interesting article in the ew 3or# Times on all the latestresearch. o% all mammals hel! their elderly and all mammals% basically% have the whole

range of emotions that we have.

*!ea#ing of in(ustice% this reminded me. +n dogs% they"ve done e'!eriments where dogs

react badly to in(ustice. @et"s say two dogs are taught a tric# and then% they"re as#ed to

!erform the tric# and one dog gets a treat% but the other one doesn"t. The dog that isgetting the treat will sto! doing the tric# until the other dog gets a treat% too. +sn"t that

interesting- I@aughterJ

MP: 7ow.

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2M: 3es% very interesting. +t ma#es me wonder whether animals grieve also and how

they grieve. +t"s a very interesting issue.

MP: 3es% very interesting.

2M: 3es. All right. Anything else-

MP: That"s it. That"s the (ustice thing. +t shows you how im!ortant it is even for othermammals.

2M: 3es% it"s so dee!% so dee! that there"s this sense in all mammals. 3es.

MP: 3es. All right. + don"t see any more ,uestions here.

2M: 6#ay.

MP: 7e"re at >H minutes. + thin# we should say goodbye to each other and loo# forward

to our ne't time.

2M: 6#ay.

MP: Than# you everyone for coming. +t was a great call though.

George: 2loe and Mar#% than# you.

Dennis: Than# you.

2M: Than# you. $ye&bye.

27 -overcoming grief - maggie - teleclass - transcript

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