a debate between natalie angier and david sloan wilson

8/9/2019 A Debate Between Natalie Angier and David Sloan Wilson

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A DEBATE BETWEEN NATALIE ANGIER AND DAVID SLOAN WILSON, MODERATED

BY THOMAS A. BASS

Natalie Angier: I want to say first of all tat I !""#ly a!$ir" Da%i!&s wor' an! tat I #ro(a(ly

so)l!n&t tin' of tis as a !"(at". L"t $" ("*in (y r"a!in* tis int"r"stin* littl" "+"r#t I a$"

aross r""ntly-I will t"ll yo) aft"rwar! wo wrot" it.

In fa" of t" onsla)*t of t" f)n!a$"ntalists, so$" si"ntists ar" ont"nt to r"#"at o%"r an!

o%"r tat t"y ("li"%" in "%ol)tion ()t tat t"r" is no onflit ("tw""n si"n" an! r"li*ion.

T"y only o(s)r" t" r"al iss)". Tis stat"$"nt $ay (" tr)", ()t it !"#"n!s "ntir"ly )#on t"

!"finition of r"li*ion. If r"li*ion $"ans t" "$otions of sy$#aty, arity, an! )$anity-wi

to so$" "+t"nt ar" #art of "%"ry )$an str)t)r"-t"n tis stat"$"nt is no !o)(t tr)". If it

$"ans tat *r"at s""rs an! #ro#"ts of t" worl! fro$ t" "arli"st ti$"s a%", al$ost wito)t

"+"#tion, "$#asi"! t"s" "$otions, t"n t" stat"$"nt is tr)". T" si"ntists, wo r"#"at tat

t"r" is no onflit, "%i!"ntly !"fin" r"li*ion in so$" s) way. If r"li*ion $"ans tat t" "art,

an! $an, w"r" r"at"! in si+ !ays, $"as)r"! (y t" $ornin* an! "%"nin*/ tat t" s)n was $a!"on t" fo)rt !ay/ tat t" first wo$an was $a!" fro$ A!a$&s ri(/ tat t" s)n stoo! still for

0os)a/ tat t" "art was o$#l"t"ly !rown"! o)t (y a floo!/ tat t" ar sa%"! two of "%"ry

'in! of or*ani lif" *at"r"! fro$ all o%"r t" *lo(" to start a n"w worl!/ tat all #r"s"nt lif"

o$"s fro$ ani$als tat w"r" sa%"! fro$ t" ar/ tat "a s#"i"s is t" r"s)lt of a s"#arat"

r"ation/ tat t" )$an ra" was !oo$"! to "t"rnal tort)r" ("a)s" E%" was t"$#t"! (y t"

s"r#"nt an! $an was t"$#t"! (y E%"/ tat two or tr"" to)san! y"ars lat"r $an was off"r"! a

an" for r"!"$#tion (y ("li"%in* in an i$$a)lat" on"#tion an! a #ysial r"s)rr"tion/ if

all tis is #art of r"li*ion, an! it $)st (" ("li"%"! if on" is r"li*io)s, t"n t" an"s ar" tat

t"r" ar" no si"ntists wo will say tat r"li*ion an! si"n" ar" in ar$ony. Wy so)l! not

t"s" si"ntists, wo say tat si"n" an! r"li*ion !o not onflit, !"fin" in #lain t"r$s wat t"y

$"an (y r"li*ion1 T" ti$" is #ast !)" for t" si"ntists to s#"a' in no )n"rtain t"r$s2 t"

f)n!a$"ntalist !o"s not 3)i((l" or !o!*"/ " is )sin* "%"ry $"ans in is #ow"r to #la" t"

Bi(l" an! is int"r#r"tation of r"li*ion in t" fi"l! of l"arnin*. T" (attl" as (""n fo)*t $any

ti$"s in t" istory of t" worl!. On" $or" t" o$(at is )#on )s, it annot (" won (y

3)i((lin* an! !o!*in*. Si"n" $)st o#"nly an! fairly $""t t" iss)". T" 3)"stion to ("

!"t"r$in"! is w"t"r l"arnin* so)l! (" a$#"r"! an! $"as)r"! (y !o*$a an! r""!s.

I to)*t tis was won!"rf)l, an! it was writt"n in 4567 (y 8lar"n" Darrow. All of wi is to

say tat t"s" ar" still iss)"s to !"al wit an! tat, 3)it" fran'ly, I tin' si"n" is not n""ssarily

risin* to tat all"n*". In an artil" I wrot" for t" A$"rian Solar 9:My Go! ;ro(l"$ an!

T"irs,: 6


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@ ("li"%" tat t"y ar" *oin* t"r"/ C4@ ("li"%" in *osts, ()t only 6?@ ar" sway"! (y t"

t"ory of "%ol)tion/ 77@ of A$"rians insist tat 0"s)s was (orn to a %ir*in. If "%ol)tion is

r"al, an tat (" #ossi(l"1 ro$ wat w" 'now of $a$$alian *"n"tis, an tat (" #ossi(l"1 I

*)"ss w" o)l! tin' of ways it o)l! a##"n. I $"an, $ay(" s" start"! foolin* aro)n! wit

so$"on", ()t !i!n&t a%" int"ro)rs" wit t"$ an! so$" of t" s#"r$ *ot )# into "r %a*inal

trat, an! s" *ot #r"*nant. Y"s, w" o)l! say tat. 8o)l! s" a%" !on" it (y so$" at ofs#irit)al #art"no*"n"sis1 T" answ"r is no, ()t no(o!y says tat. T"y t"ll $", tal' a(o)t

"%ol)tion, ()t all tis ot"r st)ff w"&r" not *oin* to $"ntion/ w"&r" *oin* to #)t it asi!" an! try to

i*nor" it. An! t"n wat a##"ns is tat w" a%" a lot of #ro(l"$s wit la' of si"ntifi

)n!"rstan!in*, wit tis onstant (attl" o%"r r"ationis$ ("in* ta)*t in t" sools, wit #"o#l"

not ("li"%in* si"n", #"o#l" tin'in* it&s all F)st a $att"r of o#inion.

I was %"ry int"r"st"!-an! I also o%"r tis in $y artil"-in t" !iff"r"nt ways tat si"ntists

tal' a(o)t "rtain tin*s. T"y&r" willin* to *o on t" atta' w"n it o$"s to r"ationis$ or

s#oon("n!in*. B)t w"n it o$"s to t" $iral"s of on%"ntional r"li*ion no w" !on&t

to) tat/ w" !on&t !"al wit it. An! I&$ onsi!"r"! r)!" an! ins)ltin*, F)st willf)lly #ro%oati%"to (rin* it )#.

I w"nt to t" 8orn"ll w"(sit" an! a$" )# wit tis "+a$#l" of ow two !iff"r"nt 3)"stions w"r"

tr"at"!. On t" :As' an Astrono$"r: w"(sit", to t" 3)"ry, :!o $ost astrono$"rs ("li"%" in

Go! (as"! on t" a%aila(l" "%i!"n"1: astrono$"r Da%" 8"rnoff r"#li"! tat, in is o#inion,

$o!"rn si"n" l"a%"s #l"nty of roo$ for t" "+ist"n" of Go!. ;"o#l" wo ("li"%" in Go! an

fit t"ir ("li"fs in t" si"ntifi fra$"wor' wito)t r"atin* any ontra!itions. H" it"! t" Bi*

Ban* as off"rin* sola" to tos" wo want to ("li"%" in a G"n"sis "3)i%al"nt. T" #ro(a(ilisti

r"al$s of 3)ant)$ $"anis rais" t" #ossi(ility of :Go! int"r%"nin* "%"ry ti$" a

$"as)r"$"nt o)rs.: H" onl)!"! tat, )lti$at"ly, si"n" an n"%"r #ro%" or !is#ro%" t"

"+ist"n" of Go! an! r"li*io)s ("li"f !o"sn&t, an! so)l!n&t, a%" anytin* to !o wit si"ntifi

r"asonin*.

Noti" ow $) l"ss 'in! was t" r"s#ons" to a r"a!"r as'in* w"t"r astrono$"rs ("li"%" in

astrolo*y2 :No, astrono$"rs !o not ("li"%" in astrolo*y,: sai! Da%" 8"rnoff. :It is onsi!"r"! to

(" a l)!iro)s sa$. T"r" is no "%i!"n" tat it wor's, an! #l"nty of "%i!"n" to t" ontrary.:

H" "n!"! is !is$issal wit t" ass"rtion tat in si"n" :on" !o"s not n""! a r"ason not to

("li"%" in so$"tin*. S'"#tiis$ is t" !"fa)lt #osition an! on" r"3)ir"s #roof if on" is to ("

on%in"! of so$"tin*&s "+ist"n".: In ot"r wor!s, for oroso#" fans, t" ()r!"n of #roof is

"ntir"ly on t"$-#oor *)lli(l" *its. B)t for t" $)ltit)!" to ("li"%" tat, in on" way or anot"r,

r"li*io)s !i%in" int"lli*"n" *)i!"s t" #at of "%"ry l"a#in* l"#ton tat&s O.

I s"" so$" f)n!a$"ntal ontra!ition "r". E%"ry(o!y ritii"s Riar! Daw'ins an! Sa$

Harris. B)t at l"ast t"y&r" tal'in* a(o)t ow l)!iro)s so$" of t"s" ("li"f syst"$s ar". I 'now

tat Da%i! Sloan Wilson !o"sn&t ta'" iss)" wit t" way I&%" fra$"! t"s" 3)"stions, ()t to s""

r"li*ion as a%in* a #ositi%" infl)"n" !o"s not *"t at t" f)n!a$"ntal 3)"stion of wat it $"ans

to a%" fait. Wat is so *oo! a(o)t a%in* fait w"n yo) !on&t a%" "%i!"n"1 Wat is t" r"al


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a!%anta*" to tat1 Wy is tis so$"tin* tat w" want to "no)ra*"1 Wy not say, as I !o wit

$y !a)*t"r, :L"t&s s"" so$" #roof.: S" as'"! "r fri"n!, wo ("li"%"s in 0"s)s, if s" o)l!

wait )# on" ni*t an! s"" Hi$ for "rs"lf, an! it !i!n&t a##"n. Wy is tat O1 Wy is it O

for si"ntists to say tat s'"#tiis$ is t" !"fa)lt #osition, "+"#t w"n it o$"s to $ainstr"a$

r"li*ion1

David Sloan Wilson: I want to ("*in (y larifyin* $y a##roa to r"li*ion. Sin" I&$ a si"ntist,

I a%" on" *oal an! on" *oal only, wi is to "+#lain tin*s as nat)ral #"no$"na, an! tat

inl)!"s r"li*ion. Tis is not a n"w "nt"r#ris". ;"o#l" a%" (""n int"r"st"! in r"li*io)s st)!i"s

for a lon* ti$". Yo) *o (a' to fol's li'" D)r'"i$, an! w"t"r t"y all t"$s"l%"s

soiolo*ists or #syolo*ists or st)!"nts of r"li*io)s st)!i"s, t"y ar" att"$#tin* to "+#lain

r"li*ion as a nat)ral #"no$"non. T" a$o)nt of solarsi# on tis is )*". On" of $y

#ro(l"$s wit Dan D"nn"tt&s (oo' is tat " ats as if tis is a n"w tin*. :Gos, w" so)l!

r"ally (" st)!yin* r"li*ion as a nat)ral #"no$"non.: As if w" a%"n&t (""n alr"a!y.

T" 3)"stion is w"t"r "%ol)tionary t"ory an s)""!, w"r" #r"%io)s a##roa"s a%"fail"!. 8an "%ol)tionary t"ory-wi as )nifi"! t" (iolo*ial si"n"s-#ro%i!" an

"+#lanation of r"li*ion wi is $or" satisfyin* tan #r"%io)s "+#lanations, inl)!in* "ono$i

a##roa"s an! soiolo*ial a##roa"s1 I tin' t" answ"r to tat is, :Y"s,: ("a)s"

"%ol)tionary t"ory an "+#lain $ost as#"ts of o)r s#"i"s, an! tis #arti)lar "nt"r#ris" is %"ry

n"w.

or r"asons tat ar" o$#l"+, "%ol)tionary t"ory as (""n onfin"! to t" (iolo*ial si"n"s

for $ost of t" tw"nti"t "nt)ry. It&s only (""n witin t" last t"n or tw"nty y"ars tat tis way

of tin'in*, wi is so #ow"rf)l, as finally s#r"a! o)t an! is ("in* )s"! to "+#lain all )$an

r"lat"! s)(F"ts. An! ow "+itin* is tat W" r"ally n""! to )n!"rstan! t" st)!y of r"li*ion

fro$ an "%ol)tionary #"rs#"ti%", a*ainst t" (roa!"r (a'*ro)n! of st)!yin* all tin*s )$an

fro$ an "%ol)tionary #"rs#"ti%". I tin' w"&r" li%in* in %"ry "+itin* ti$"s, int"ll"t)ally.

So wat !o"s "%ol)tion say a(o)t r"li*ion1 It t)rns o)t tat t"r" is not on" "%ol)tionary t"ory

of r"li*ion/ t"r" ar" at l"ast si+, an! tis so)l!n&t s)r#ris" )s, ("a)s" w"n "%ol)tionists as'

3)"stions a(o)t any ati%ity, t"y ("*in wit a n)$("r of $aFor y#ot"s"s. T"y want to 'now,

for "+a$#l", is t" ati%ity a!a#ti%"1 Is it so$"tin* tat "%ol%"! ("a)s" it "nan"s s)r%i%al or

r"#ro!)tion1 Do"s it "nan" *ro)# s)r%i%al1 Do"s it inr"as" t" fitn"ss of in!i%i!)als

o$#ar"! to ot"r in!i%i!)als witin *ro)#s1

Ot"r 3)"stions o#"n )# w"n w" ar" !is)ssin* )lt)ral "%ol)tion. B"a)s" )lt)r" o#s fro$"a! to "a!, it as an intri*)in* r"s"$(lan" to a !is"as" or*anis$. It is #ossi(l" tat )lt)r"

an (" #arasiti. It an s#r"a! on its own t"r$s, for its own *oo!. It an (" !"str)ti%" to (ot

in!i%i!)als an! *ro)#s, li'" t" AIDS %ir)s. Not "%"rytin* tat "%ol%"s is a!a#ti%". T"r"&s lots

of st)ff o)t t"r" tat !o"sn&t inr"as" t" s)r%i%al or r"#ro!)tion of anytin*. St"%"n 0. Go)l!

was fa$o)s for $a'in* tis is *r"at t"$". It&s #ossi(l" tat so$"tin* an (" a (y#ro!)t/ it

an (" a s#an!r"l. R"li*ion $i*t (" *oo! for notin* watso"%"r, ()t it&s onn"t"! to


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so$"tin* "ls" wi !o"s a%" a ("n"fit. Or it $i*t a%" (""n a!a#ti%" in t" an"stral

"n%iron$"nt, in t" Ston" A*", ()t is no lon*"r a!a#ti%" in t" #r"s"nt/ as is tr)" wit o)r "atin*

a(its, for "+a$#l". To!ay, o)r "atin* a(its ar" 'illin* )s, ()t t"y )s"! to $a'" *r"at s"ns" in

an "n%iron$"nt of foo! sarity. So $ay(" r"li*ion is li'" o("sity/ it&s (a! for )s to!ay, li'" o)r

"atin* a(its. On t" ot"r an!, $ay(" r"li*ion is n")tral. It&s li'" all t" *"n"s o)t t"r" tat

a%" no "ff"t on fitn"ss/ t"y F)st !rift into t" #o#)lation. Tis is wy w" a%" $ol")lar:lo's.: W" an !at" tin*s fro$ tis 'in! of *"n"ti !rift.

T"s" ar" so$" of t" %astly !iff"r"nt on"#tions of r"li*ion, an! it $a'"s a !iff"r"n" wi

on" w" a"#t. Not all of t"$ ar" $)t)ally "+l)si%", ()t a si"ntist-w"t"r or not yo) all

yo)rs"lf an "%ol)tionist-n""!s to !"t"r$in" wi of t"s" !iff"r"nt y#ot"s"s fits t" !ata.

L"t $" fo)s on two. On" is t" #arasit" t"ory. If yo) r"a! t" (oo's of D"nn"tt an! Daw'ins,

t"y #r"s"nt r"li*ion as a !is"as", wi w" wo)l! (" ("tt"r off if w" o)l! *"t ri! of. Tat&s wy

it&s a !"l)sion an! wy w" want to :(r"a' t" s#"ll.: W"n I r"a! tos" (oo's I f""l as if I&$

watin* tat ol! $o%i" R""f"r Ma!n"ss. On" wiff of :'ill"r w""!,: an! yo)&r" a *on"r. Itinf"ts yo)r $in!, an! tat&s it. It&s li'" t" !"$ons of ol!. W"&r" #oss"ss"!, an! w" n""! to

"+ori" t"s" !"$ons. I titl"! $y r"%i"w of D"nn"tt&s (oo' :Si"ntifi E+orist.:

Wat I lai$, on t" ot"r an!, is tat w"n yo) "+a$in" t" "%i!"n" for r"li*ion-of wi

t"r" is a *r"at !"al-yo) s"" tat r"li*io)s *ro)#s f)ntion $or" or l"ss as or*anis$s. L"t $"

r"a! a 3)ot" tat #i3)"! $y int"r"st in tis s)(F"t. It was writt"n, not in t" 456


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Now in a o$#"llin* an! si"ntifi way w" an say, :No.: W" ar" a *ro)# or*anis$, an! $)

of wat w" !o is or"strat"! (y )lt)r"-not (y o)r *"n"s, ()t (y )lt)r". If yo)&r" an

"%ol)tionist, yo) ("li"%" tat $ost tin*s "%ol%" ("a)s" of t"ir "ff"ts on ("a%ior. If w"&r"

*oin* to tin' a(o)t )$an ("li"fs tis way-t" $in! is an or*an for #ro!)in* ("li"fs-ow

so)l! w" "%al)at" t"s" ("li"fs1 So)l! w" "%al)at" t"$ in t"r$s of t"ir orr"s#on!"n" to

r"ality1 Or so)l! w" "%al)at" t"$ in t"r$s of wat t"y a)s" #"o#l" to !o1 I tin' tat w"nyo) loo' at ("li"fs, not F)st r"li*io)s ("li"fs, ()t nonr"li*io)s ("li"fs, as w"ll-t"r"&s

so$"tin* in $y (oo' I all :st"altr"li*ions/: t"y !on&t in%o'" s)#"rnat)ral a*"nts, ()t t"y&r"

$assi%" !istortions of r"ality, non"t"l"ss-an! as' wy t"s" #"no$"na "+ist, t" si$#l"

answ"r is tat t"y $oti%at" #"o#l" to at to*"t"r.

Wit a#olo*i"s to Natali", I tin' t"r"&s a 'in! of a sillin"ss to (an*in* away at r"li*io)s ("li"fs

for t"ir o(%io)s fals"oo!, w"n in fat, if yo)&r" an "%ol)tionist, t" only way yo) wo)l! want

to "%al)at" t"s" ("li"fs is to "+a$in" wat t"y a)s" #"o#l" to !o. Do t"y "l# #"o#l"

f)ntion in t"ir o$$)niti"s1 T"n tis $i*t (" an "+#lanation for wy t"y "+ist. It also

$a'"s it )nn""ssary to ritii" t"s" i!"as, a*ain an! a*ain, ("a)s" t"y !"#art fro$ fat)alr"ality. W" so)l! (" $or" so#istiat"! in t" way w" "%al)at" ("li"fs.

Thomas A. Bass: Natali", to "%"n )# t" sor" "r", yo) a%" tr"" $in)t"s.

Natalie Angier: Tis r"$in!s $" of t" Wit" J)""n wo says, :I an ("li"%" si+ i$#ossi(l"

tin*s ("for" (r"a'fast.: irst of all, tis is t" 'in! of tin'in* tat an (" "asily $ani#)lat"!.

S"on!, tis s""$s to (" t" antit"sis of wat si"n" is a(o)t. B"li"%in* in so$"tin* tat isn&t

tr)", ("a)s" it $oti%at"s yo) to at, is not t" 'in! of f)n!a$"ntal )n!"rstan!in* tat $oti%at"s

si"n". If yo) ("li"%" yo)&r" *oin* to (" r"s)rr"t"! aft"r yo) !i", wi I tin' is a fairy tal",

tis is )lti$at"ly a !issatisfyin* way to #ro$ot" lif", an! I !on&t tin' tat it&s *oin* to *"t )s

anyw"r" as a )lt)r". I tin' it&s a (arri"r tat )lt)ral "%ol)tion as to ta'" )s #ast. W" n""! to

$o%" in t" !ir"tion of a"#tin* t" )ni%"rs" as it tr)ly is, rat"r tan as w" wis it to (".

Thomas A. Bass: So$" !"finitions $i*t "l#. Wat is si"n", wat is r"li*ion, an! wy ar"

t"y o##os"! to "a ot"r1

David Sloan Wilson: Si"n" is an "ffort to )n!"rstan! t" worl! as it r"ally is. Tat&s t" *o! of

si"n", to )n!"rstan! :nat)ral r"ality.: R"li*ion as $any !"finitions, an! t"y ar" all

)nsatisfyin*. It&s not ri*t to !"fin" r"li*ion in t"r$s of ("li"f in s)#"rnat)ral a*"nts. B)!!is$

!o"sn&t follow tat, $) l"ss 8onf)ianis$. T"r"&s $or" to r"li*ion tan tat, or "ls" t"r"

wo)l! (" no !iff"r"n" ("tw""n Go! an! t" East"r B)nny. D)r'"i$ !"fin"s r"li*ion as asy$(oli syst"$ tat "$#asi"s t" sar"! an! )nit"s into a o$$)nity, all it a )r, all of

its $"$("rs. I tin' t"r"&s so$"tin* a(o)t r"li*ion wi is !"!iat"! to "l#in* o$$)niti"s

f)ntion w"ll, an! tat&s not #art of t" !"finition of si"n", #"r s", alto)* it $i*t (" a si!"

"ff"t of si"n".


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Natalie Angier: I tin' tat si"n" is (as"! on "%i!"n" an! tat r"li*ion is (as"! on fait. Tat

to $" is t" f)n!a$"ntal !iff"r"n". W"n yo) a%" fait in so$"tin*, it r"3)ir"s tat

yo) not as' for "%i!"n". It is o##os"! to t" si"ntifi $in!s"t. ;"o#l" ass)$" tat tos" wo

ar"n&t r"li*io)s !on&t a%" a ri inn"r lif". Tis is a fals"oo!, ()t it "+#lains wy #"o#l" say

tat t"y wo)l! rat"r %ot" for a il! $ol"st"r for #r"si!"nt tan an at"ist. I tin' tat art

f)lfills a lot of t" f)ntions tat r"li*ion is s)##os"! to . . . at l"ast for $" it !o"s. I was F)str"a!in* a #o"$ (y Elia("t Biso# a(o)t !"at, an! it $a!" $" ry. S" wasn&t as'in* $" to

ta'" anytin* on fait. It was a won!"rf)l "+#"ri"n". It #)ll"! $y $in! an! all $y s"ns"s into

it, ()t s" wasn&t as'in* $" to ("li"%" so$"tin* #at"ntly foolis. I !on&t tin' it&s tr)" tat

r"li*ions ar" not n""ssarily (as"! on s)#"rnat)ral ("li"fs. Tat&s wat is ("in* #ro$ot"!

nowa!ays. W"&r" *"ttin* away fro$ ay, n"wa*"y r"li*ions an! (a' to t" ol!fasion"!,

orto!o+, f)n!a$"ntalist r"li*ions. T"s" ar" t" on"s tat ar" a)toritarian. T"y say, :Yo) will

("li"%" tis.: Yo) a%" to sow yo)r f"alty (y sayin* yo) ("li"%" so$"tin* tat, as Mar' Twain

sai!, :yo) 'now ain&t so.: To $", tis is wat r"li*ion r"ally is. T"r" is also t" !"sir" for an

aft"rlif", wi is a stron* #)ll for a lot of #"o#l" wo *"t in%ol%"! in r"li*ion.

Thomas A. Bass: Har%ar! #al"ontolo*ist St"%"n G. Go)l! all"! si"n" an! r"li*ion :two non

o%"rla##in* $a*ist"ria.: In ot"r wor!s, si"n" an! r"li*ion ar" !isr"t" r"al$s of 'nowl"!*"

a#a(l" of o"+istin*. Is tis #ossi(l", or ar" si"n" an! r"li*ion r"ally o##on"nts s3)ar"! off

a*ainst "a ot"r1

David Sloan Wilson: It&s i$#ortant to #oint o)t tat two or tr"" )n!r"! y"ars a*o r"ationis$

was a #"rf"tly *oo! si"ntifi y#ot"sis. It was wat $ost #"o#l" "n!ors"! an! w"r" tryin* to

wor' wit. Wat a##"n"! was tat it fail"!, a*ain an! a*ain. Now, r"li*io)s ("li"f as (""n

!ri%"n fro$ t" fi"l! of "$#irial in3)iry. T"r"&s no s)(F"t anyw"r" wi is ("in*

a##roa"! si"ntifially an! "$#irially tat tri"s to )n!"rstan! fat)al as#"ts of t" worl!

wit r"li*io)s ("li"f #layin* a rol". Tis is not ("a)s" #"o#l" a%" ons#ir"! a*ainst r"li*ion. It

is si$#ly ("a)s" r"li*ion as fail"! as a way to "+#lain t" worl!. If yo) r"ally ta'" tis

s"rio)sly, an! if yo)&r" int"ll"t)ally on"st wit yo)rs"lf, yo) a%" to won!"r wat&s l"ft o%"r.

Tis is wy I&$ an at"ist, F)st as $) as Natali". B)t wat&s l"ft o%"r-wi si"n" !o"sn&t

*i%" yo) (y its"lf-is a %al)" syst"$, a s"t of *)i!"lin"s for ow to ("a%".

If yo) want to tal' a(o)t s"#arat" $a*ist"ria, I say, :in".: W" all n""! %al)" syst"$s for ow to

("a%". Si"n" $i*t infor$ tat, ()t it !o"sn&t onstit)t" a %al)" syst"$ (y its"lf. O)r %al)"

syst"$s $i*t (" r"li*io)s, t"y $i*t (" nonr"li*io)s, ()t t"y&r" soial onstr)tions. Tis is

wat int"r"sts $"-alto)* it $ay (" tro)(lin* to ot"r #"o#l"-wat a##"ns w"n si"n",

a%in* "+#lain"! all as#"ts of t" (iolo*ial worl!, ("*ins in t" sa$" way to "+#lain allas#"ts of r"li*ion, its instit)tions an! ("li"fs1

I a%" a r"s"ar #roF"t ri*t now on r"li*io)s on"#tions of t" aft"rlif" fro$ a )lt)ral

"%ol)tionary #ros#"ti%". Natali" sai! tat w" li'" to ("li"%" in a #l"asant aft"rlif" to allay o)r

f"ar of !"at. Tat&s a lon*stan!in* y#ot"sis. It t)rns o)t tat it fails $is"ra(ly, as soon as yo)

ons)lt t" "%i!"n" for it, ("a)s" t"r" ar" $any r"li*ions tat !on&t f"at)r" a #l"asant aft"rlif".


7/14

Do yo) 'now wat on" of t"$ is1 0)!ais$. I !i!n&t 'now tis )ntil I start"! to l"arn a(o)t

r"li*ion $ys"lf, ()t t" aft"rlif" fi*)r"! $) l"ss in 0)!ais$ tan in 8ristianity. W"n t"

H"(r"w Go! s#o'" to is #"o#l", " was #)nisin* t"$ or r"war!in* t"$ in tis lif". H"

sar"ly a! anytin* to say a(o)t wat a##"ns in t" aft"rlif". Si"n" !o"s not (y its"lf

#ro%i!" a %al)" syst"$. Nor !o I ("li"%" tat r"li*ion is a s"#arat" $a*ist"ria in t" s"ns" tat

t"r"&s a Go! o)t t"r" wo is not i$#in*in* on t" nat)ral worl! in so$" way tat w" an&t$"as)r".

Thomas A. Bass: Wy !i! yo) start tin'in* an! writin* a(o)t si"n" an! r"li*ion, an! wat

ar" t" sta'"s for yo) in tis !"(at"1

Natalie Angier: T" first ti$" I wrot" a(o)t tis was aft"r G"or*" B)s was "l"t"! 9a)!i"n"

la)*s>. T" a$#ai*n l"a!in* )# to is "l"tion was st""#"! in r"li*iosity. Yo) a! #"o#l" li'"

0o" Li"("r$an sayin* tat yo) an&t ta'" r"li*ion o)t of $orality, an! G"or*" B)s Sr. sayin*

tat at"ists !i! not !"s"r%" to (" iti"ns. I r"$"$("r r"#ort"rs o)n!in* Howar! D"an,

!"$an!in* tat " say " ("li"%"! in t" R"s)rr"tion an! "t"rnal lif" an! tat 0"s)s was Go!&sson. Howar! D"an, wo&s #ro(a(ly not r"li*io)s at all, a! to #lay t" *a$".

I to)*t tat tis was r"ally *"ttin* o)t of ontrol. So I wrot" $y artil", :8onf"ssions of a

Lon"ly At"ist,: w"r" I tal'"! a(o)t ow ar! it is to (" an o)t"! at"ist. I *ot )n!r"!s of

l"tt"rs in r"s#ons", an! al$ost all of t"$ sai! t" sa$" tin*2 :Tis will #ro(a(ly (" t" only

#ositi%" l"tt"r tat yo) *"t, ()t .: E%"ryon" ass)$"! I wo)l! *"t a lot of at" $ail, ()t I a!

ta##"! into a 'in! of !"sir", $ay(" it&s a !"sir" for a o$$)nity of o)r own. I f"lt tat so$"(o!y

a! to say tat not "%"ry(o!y was ()yin* into tis-wat"%"r was *oin* on, wi a! *ott"n so

"+tr"$".

I was rais"! in a %"ry w"ir! r"li*io)s o)s"ol!. My fat"r was )*. I a! $y own "$otional

istory wit r"li*ion, ()t tat wasn&t wat $a!" $" ("o$" an at"ist. I !i!n&t s"" any r"ason not

to (". I !on&t want to s#"n! $y lif" ("in* a #rof"ssional at"ist. It s""$s li'" a %"ry narrow, not

%"ry int"r"stin* #osition. B)t I f""l tat si"ntists a%" (""n r"ally owar!ly in so$" as#"ts of

tis.

I also wrot" a(o)t Darr"ll La$("rt. So$" of yo) $ay r"$"$("r is story. W"n " was

#ro$ot"! to Ea*l" So)t!o$ " "it"r a! to say tat " ("li"%"! in Go!, or " wo)l! ("

'i'"! o)t of t" Boy So)ts. H" a! alr"a!y *on" tro)* a 'in! of on%"rsion "+#"ri"n" in

is 5t *ra!" (iolo*y lass, w"n " !"i!"! tat " was *oin* to st)!y "%ol)tion. H" a! *on"

to Bi(l" lass"s is wol" il!oo!, ()t, finally, " )n!"rstoo! t" worl!. H" o)l!n&t li", an!" wo)l!n&t !o wat #"o#l" w"r" a!%isin* i$ to !o, wi was fa'" it an! say :I ("li"%".: I

to)*t tis *)y was a "ro. I '"#t waitin* for si"ntists to say :Y" Tis (iolo*y lass r"ally

$a!" a !iff"r"n" in is lif".: B)t no(o!y !i!. Darr"ll w"nt on 8onni" 8)n* ri*t aft"r t"

Mafia fa$ily. ;"o#l" so)l! a%" (""n rallyin* aro)n! i$. Inst"a!, it was sa! to s"" wat

a##"n"! to i$.


8/14

Si"ntists a%" (""n o)n!in* $" to tal' a(o)t ow "%ol)tion is r"al. W"ll, yo) *)ys a%" to

stan! )#, too, an! say tat a lot of tis st)ff is F)st . L"t&s (" $or" s"nsi(l" a(o)t t" t"r$s of

o)r !is)ssion. I&$ not sayin* tat yo) a%" to wal' aro)n! ins)ltin* #"o#l", ()t lay o)t wat w"

tin' is li'"ly, wat sort of #ro(a(ility yo) wo)l! "+#"t for t" R"s)rr"tion, %ir*in (irt, an!

all of tat. Don&t F)st on!"$n s#oon ("n!in* an! t"l"'in"sis. Inl)!" all tis ot"r st)ff tat no

on" tal's a(o)t. Wy not #)t it to*"t"r in on" (i* (as'"t an! say, :8o$" on. L"t&s (" r"asona(l" #"o#l", an! "r"&s wy w" !on&t tin' tis is so.:

David Wilson: I a*r"" wit Natali" tat in t" $o!"rn worl! w" n""! to a%" *oo! fats

int"r#r"t"! (y a *oo! %al)" syst"$. W" n""! a stron* si"ntifi )lt)r" tat )n!"rstan!s t"

worl! t" way it is, an! t"n w" n""! to int"r#r"t t"s" fats wit *oo! %al)"s. It&s int"r"stin* to

*o (a' to t" fo)n!in* fat"rs of tis o)ntry. Wat !i! t"y tin' a(o)t r"li*ion, an! wy was

t" s"#aration of )r an! stat" so i$#ortant1 It was i$#ortant ("a)s" $ost of t"s" *)ys

w"r" irr"%"r"nt. T"y w"r" notin* li'" t" r"li*io)s "alots of to!ay. T"y to)*t tat r"li*ions

w"r" *oo! on an int"r$"!iat" sal", in #ro%i!in* s"r%i"s for t"ir own $"$("rs, ()t r"li*ions

w"r" a #ro(l"$ w"n yo) to)*t a(o)t t" lar*"r soial )nit. Tat&s wy t" s"#aration of)r an! stat" was so i$#ortant.

Y"s, t" worl! is f)ll of intol"ran", an! at"ists ar" !"s#is"! in o)r )lt)r", ()t w"n it o$"s to

!oin* so$"tin* a(o)t it, tis is w"r" it "l#s to tin' li'" an "olo*ist. An "olo*ist an!

"%ol)tionist tri"s to "+#lain )$an !i%"rsity in t" sa$" way tat " "+#lains (iolo*ial

!i%"rsity. Wat !o"s tat $"an1 In (iolo*ial o$$)niti"s t"r" ar" $any s#"i"s ("a)s" t"r"

ar" $any ni"s, an! "%"ry ni" alls for a !iff"r"nt strat"*y for s)r%i%al an! r"#ro!)tion. If

yo) as', wat is t" "n%iron$"nt tat fa%ors t" 'in! of soi"ty tat w" wo)l! li'"-a soi"ty

*ro)n!"! in *oo! fats, infor$in* a *oo! %al)" syst"$-t" only "n%iron$"nt in wi s) a

soi"ty an s)r%i%" is a w"alty, sta(l" "n%iron$"nt. Tat&s wat yo) fin! in E)ro#". I won&t tal'

a(o)t A$"ria for t" $o$"nt. In E)ro#", yo)&r" (orn into a saf" "n%iron$"nt/ yo) a%" lots of

r"so)r"s/ yo) an #a' yo)r in!i%i!)als wit "!)ation/ an! yo) an "+#"t to li%" )ntil yo)&r"

in yo)r lat" s"%"nti"s. Yo) an fi*)r" st)ff o)t. Yo) an "+#"ri$"nt. T" ons"3)"n"s of failin*

ar"n&t so (a!. Tis is w"r" li("ralis$ tri%"s.

A lot of wat yo)&r" tal'in* a(o)t isn&t r"li*ion %"rs)s nonr"li*ion. It&s ons"r%atis$ %"rs)s

li("ralis$, F)st as t"r" ar" li("ral r"li*ions an! ons"r%ati%" r"li*ions. I li'" to 3)ot" so$"on"

wo on%"rt"! fro$ a ons"r%ati%" r"li*ion to a li("ral r"li*ion. :I want"! a r"li*ion tat as's

3)"stions rat"r tan #ro%i!in* t" answ"rs.: Many r"li*ions #os" t" 'in! of o#"n"n!"!

3)"stions tat *"t onf)s"! wit nonr"li*ion or at"is$. Now, w"r" !o ons"r%atis$ an!

a)toritarianis$ tri%"1 T"y tri%" in !an*"ro)s, aoti "n%iron$"nts, w"r" #"o#l" !on&ta%" t" r"so)r"s to "!)at" t"$s"l%"s. Tis is w"r" yo) a%" a soi"ty in wi #"o#l" ar"

tol! wat to !o. Ot"r #arts of t" worl!, s) as E)ro#", ar" ("o$in* $or" s")lar, ("a)s"

t" "n%iron$"nt is fa%orin* tat. B)t t" worl! as a wol" is ("o$in* $or" r"li*io)s, $or"

f)n!a$"ntalist. Wy is tis1 It&s ("a)s" it&s ("o$in* $or" !an*"ro)s an! aoti.

Go%"rn$"nts ar"n&t #ro%i!in* t" s"r%i"s tat #"o#l" n""!, an! r"li*ions ar". A*ain an! a*ain

yo) "ar a(o)t t"s" soall"! t"rrorist or*aniations #ro%i!in* s"r%i"s for t"ir #"o#l". W"n I


9/14

"ar $y r"s#"t"! oll"a*)"s, s) as Dan D"nn"tt an! Riar! Daw'ins, tal' a(o)t r"li*ion, I

tin' t"y ar" s$art #"o#l" !oin* so$"tin* wi is not so s$art. T"y as', :How an #"o#l"

("li"%" s) !)$( st)ff1: B)t t"y ar" not loo'in* at t" "olo*ial (as"s for t"s" ("li"fs. If

yo) tin' of t"s" syst"$s as s)"ssf)l in so$" "n%iron$"nts, ()t not ot"rs, t"n yo) an

isolat" t" "n%iron$"ntal fators. If yo) want li("ralis$ to tri%", r"li*io)s or nonr"li*io)s, t"n

#ro%i!" t" #ro#"r "n%iron$"nt, an! it will *row s#ontan"o)sly.

Thomas A. Bass: W" a%" a 3)"stion fro$ t" a)!i"n".

Audience Member2 Yo) sai! yo) w"r"n&t *oin* to r"f"r to t" Knit"! Stat"s F)st now. 8an yo)

#)t t" Knit"! Stat"s (a' in yo)r "3)ation1

David Sloan Wilson: T" Knit"! Stat"s is an ano$aly for #"o#l" wo st)!y r"li*ion ("a)s" it&s

an affl)"nt soi"ty, an! y"t, it&s i*ly r"li*io)s. T" i!"a tat it&s a fr"" r"li*io)s "ono$y

!o"sn&t wor' o)t %"ry w"ll, ("a)s" if tis w"r" t" as", t"n A)stralia an! N"w "alan! so)l!

(" li'" t" Knit"! Stat"s, an! t"y&r" not. Anot"r #ossi(ility is tat t" ino$" in"3)ality an!in"3)ality in *"n"ral ar" so *r"at in t" Knit"! Stat"s tat w" o$(in" an affl)"nt nation li'"

E)ro#", wit a tir! worl! nation. T"r" ar" $any #"o#l" wo ar" not *"ttin* t" f)n!a$"ntal

in*r"!i"nts of lif", finanial, #syolo*ial, or soiolo*ial, an! wo t"n t)rn to r"li*ion.

Audience Member: I a$" "r" #r"#ar"! to say :a #la*)" on (ot yo)r o)s"s.: T" i!"a tat

yo) 'now wat r"li*ion is an! tat si"n" o#"rat"s wito)t it&s own 'in! of fait is for t" (ir!s.

David Sloan Wilson: T"r"&s a lot a(o)t si"n" tat as t" tra##in*s of r"li*ion, ()t at t" "n!

of t" !ay I want to !isa*r"" wit yo). I&$ a %"t"ran of t" *ro)# s"l"tion wars. T"r" ar" a lot

of "r"si"s in si"n", a lot of st)ff tat&s ta(oo. Si"n" is oft"n ta)*t (y rot", an! on" o)l!

)s" r"li*io)s t"r$inolo*y to !"sri(" t" #ro"ss2 "r"sy, ta(oo, #ri"sts. Dan D"nn"tt $a'"s tis

#oint i$s"lf. M) of wat w" 'now w" ta'" on fait. W" ta'" t" t"ory of r"lati%ity on fait/

w" an&t !"ri%" all t" "3)ations fro$ srat. B)t at t" "n! of t" !ay, no $att"r ow

o$#liat"! it is, an! ow fill"! wit #ara!i*$s an! ino$$"ns)ra(ility, t"r" is so$"tin*

a(o)t t" si"ntifi $"to! tat $a'"s o)r r"#r"s"ntation of t" worl! on%"r*" on wat&s

at)ally o)t t"r". Tis is a $a*nifi"nt tin*, an!, )nl"ss it was t" *oal of si"n", it wo)l!n&t

a##"n. In!i%i!)als won&t !o it (y t"$s"l%"s. T" $in! is f)ll of all sorts of !istortions. Knl"ss

yo) a%" a )lt)r" tat says, :It&s o)r *oal to a%" ("li"fs tat a)rat"ly r"#r"s"nt r"ality, an!

t"n a #ro"!)r"-a s"t of #ro"!)r"s-wi on%"r*" to r"a tat *oal,: t"r" is no way yo)

will ai"%" si"ntifi 'nowl"!*".

Natalie Angier: I !o tin' si"ntists try-not all of t"$, ()t t" *oo! on"s-to (" t"ir own

worst "n"$y. T"y try to !is#ro%" t"ir own #"t t"ori"s. Tis is wat t" ontrols ar" all a(o)t.

Yo) 'now tat yo) !o a%" a lot of #r"on"i%"! notions, an! yo) a%" to fi*t a*ainst t"$ all

t" ti$". R"ally *oo! si"ntists will !o tat. It&s an i!"al/ o(%io)sly ar! to r"a. It&s an

"nt"r#ris" tat&s ("in* #"rfor$"! (y #"o#l" in all !iff"r"nt )lt)r"s, all o%"r t" worl!, an!

t"y&r" sarin* t"ir r"s)lts. Tis irl" as (""n wi!"nin*, so tat si"ntists ar" wor'in* in all


10/14

sorts of o)ntri"s tat w" ot"rwis" wo)l! a%" littl" ontat wit. T"s" si"ntists ar" wor'in*

to*"t"r. T"r"&s so$"tin* %"ry #ow"rf)l a(o)t tis/ it&s r"ally 'in! of a$ain*.

Audience Member: I&$ t"ain* a o)rs" "r" at SKNY Al(any on t" "tnolo*y of r"li*ion. I

also a%" a Mast"r&s !"*r"" in r"li*io)s st)!i"s fro$ a M"to!ist s"$inary. I an s"" (ot

si"ntifi an! t"or"tial a##roa"s to r"li*ion. ;art of t" #ro(l"$ wit tis !"(at" is t" fattat t"r" is no )ni%"rsally a*r""! )#on s"t of t"r$s for !"finin* r"li*ion. Many soi"ti"s !on&t

"%"n a%" a t"r$ for r"li*ion, ("a)s" wat w", fro$ a si"ntifi #"rs#"ti%", onsi!"r to (" a

r"li*ion is so "$("!!"! in t"ir worl!%i"w an! soial ("a%ior tat it an&t (" s"#arat"! fro$ t"

r"st of t"ir )lt)r". E%ol)tionary $o!"ls for "+#lainin* t" ori*ins of r"li*ion a%" (""n aro)n!

sin" t" "n! of t" 45t "nt)ry, ()t $any of t"s" a%" (""n ritii"! for t"ir "tno"ntris$.

;art of t" #ro(l"$ wit tis wol" :r"li*ion %"rs)s si"n": !"(at" is tat it s""$s to #r"l)!"

ot"r for$s of r"li*iosity tat !o not !"#"n! on "$#irial to)*t-s) as B)!!is$. I tin'

t"r"&s a #ro(l"$ wit 8risti"ntri an! !o*$ati %i"ws of r"li*ion. W"&r" "%ol%in* towar! tis

s)#r"$" for$ of rational to)*t, an! W"st"rn rationalis$ !"t"r$in"s wat tis i*"st for$ is.

It&s a'in to si"ntists ar*)in* tat "%ol)tion is #ro*r"ssin* towar! wat w" a%" alr"a!y attain"!.

David Sloan Wilson: Tat was a ni" o$$"nt. It r"fl"ts a lot of (a'*ro)n! an! 'nowl"!*" in

antro#olo*y. I tin' tat sal%a*in* an ol! i!"a tat&s (""n r"F"t"! is $) $or" !iffi)lt tan

o$in* )# wit a n"w i!"a. I 'now tis is tr)" in (iolo*y, ("a)s" I a%" s#"nt 3)it" a f"w y"ars

tryin* to sal%a*" t" on"#t of *ro)# s"l"tion, wi was a "r"sy for $) of t" 6


11/14

f)n!a$"ntalists1 At wi #oint in t" syst"$ !o yo) int"r%"n"1 Eono$ially1 Do yo) !o it

tro)* #olitial will1 How !o w" *"t to tis *r"at sta(ili"r tat will #r"%"nt #"o#l" fro$

!a$a*in* soi"ty1 I&$ a$a"! at ow $any s)ii!" (o$("rs a##"ar "%"ry!ay. I to)*t t"r"

$i*t (" a li$it. B)t #"rs")tion s""$s to (" attratin* $or" #"o#l". Tis is a sary

!"%"lo#$"nt. Sa$ Harris tal's a(o)t tis, ow t"rrifyin* it is to a%" s)#"r #ow"rf)l w"a#ons in

t" an!s of #"o#l" wit ani"nt ("li"fs. How !o w" sta(ili" tin*s1 Do"s any(o!y 'now tis18an any(o!y in tis a)!i"n" t"ll $" ow1

9A)!i"n" la)*s>

David Sloan Wilson: I an On" of t" #l"as)r"s of st)!yin* a s)(F"t si"ntifially, inl)!in*

r"li*ion, is to fin! answ"rs to t"s" 'in!s of 3)"stions. I&%" st)!i"! a ran!o$ sa$#l" of r"li*ions.

I w"nt to an "nylo#"!ia of worl! r"li*ions, t" si+t""n%ol)$" s"t o$#il"! (y Mir"a Elia!",

an! I wrot" a littl" o$#)t"r #ro*ra$ tat #i'"! %ol)$" n)$("rs at ran!o$ an! #a*" n)$("rs

at ran!o$ witin %ol)$"s. In tis fasion I $or" or l"ss *ra(("! a sa$#l" of r"li*ions, tirtysi+

r"li*ions, totally at ran!o$ fro$ tis "nylo#"!ia, wito)t r"f"r"n" to any #arti)lary#ot"sis. So I an answ"r t" 3)"stion, ow $any r"li*ions in tis sa$#l" w"r" s#r"a! (y

%iol"nt on3)"st1 How $any !o yo) tin'1

Audience Member: All.

David Sloan Wilson: R"ally1 It t)rns o)t tat t" $inority w"r" s#r"a! (y %iol"nt on3)"st.

Tin' of Mor$onis$. It !i!n&t s#r"a! (y %iol"nt on3)"st. Tin' of "arly 8ristianity.

Thomas A. Bass: Mor$onis$ $i*t (" to)*t to a%" s#r"a! (y %iol"nt on3)"st if yo)

w"r" a Nati%" A$"rian.

David Sloan Wilson: Y"s, ()t "%"ry wit" #"rson in A$"ria was !is#lain* t" Nati%"

A$"rians. Yo) !on&t want to lay tis at t" !oorst"# of r"li*ion !o yo)1 W"r" Mor$ons

!iff"r"nt fro$ anyon" "ls"1 Do yo) tin' tat t" at"ists a$on* t" #ion""rs w"r"n&t !is#lain*

Nati%" A$"rians li'" "%"ryon" "ls"1

Thomas A. Bass: W"r" t"r" any at"ists a$on* t" #ion""rs1

David Sloan Wilson: Y"s, t"r" w"r" A lot of t" #"o#l" wo a$" o%"r w"r" ()sin"ss$"n

"ntr"#r"n")rs. T" r"li*iosity witin t" #ion""rs was $) l"ss tan w" tin'. By no $"ans

w"r" t"r" only #io)s #)ritans wo a$" o%"r.

Thomas A. Bass: Do yo) r"$"$("r Garrison ""l"r&s 3)i# on tis s)(F"t1 H" sai! A$"ria

was s"ttl"! (y #"o#l" wo w"r" loo'in* for $or" r"li*io)s r"#r"ssion tan was a%aila(l" to t"$

in E)ro#".

9A)!i"n" la)*s>


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David Sloan Wilson: Do"s r"li*ion "+a"r(at" ("tw""n*ro)# onflit1 Or, w"n yo) loo'

los"ly at r"li*io)s onflit, !o yo) s"" soio#olitial onflit lyin* ("in! it1 R"li*ion $i*t

only (" fra$in* t" !"(at". To #i' s)ii!" (o$(in* as an "+a$#l", tis is a strat"*i $o%".

T"r" is *oo! lit"rat)r" on ow tis tati is "$#loy"! (y Mar+ist *ro)#s, s) as t" Ta$il

ti*"rs, as w"ll as (y r"li*io)s *ro)#s. So t" i!"a tat yo) *"t inf"t"! (y tis r"li*io)s f"r%or

wi a)s"s yo) to stra# a (o$( on yo)rs"lf is not tr)".

Audience Member: I a%" a 3)"stion for Natali". In t" ("*innin*, yo) too' si"ntists to tas',

sayin* tat t"y so)l! $a'" a (i**"r !"al o)t of all of t" )ntr)ts in r"li*ion. 8o)l! yo)

"+#lain wat yo) a%" in $in!1 How an t"y !o tis in a way tat won&t "+a"r(at" t" :)s

%"rs)s t"$: #"no$"non tat !raws t" ran's of t" r"li*io)s "%"n ti*t"r an! s""$s to (" so

o)nt"r#ro!)ti%"1

Natalie Angier: Wat is it "+atly tat&s at sta'"1 Is t" si"ntifi "nt"r#ris" at sta'"1 Is o)r

f)t)r" as si"ntifi l"a!"rs in t" worl! at sta'"1 It $i*t (". If w" allow tis 'in! of irrational

tin'in* to s#r"a! into all ar"as of aa!"$i r"s"ar, t"n t" int"*rity of t" si"ntifi"nt"r#ris" is *oin* to (" o$#ro$is"!, alon* wit o)r "ono$i f)t)r", wi is ()ilt on it-an!

I ("li"%" tis. W"&r" on"rn"! tat a s#r"a!in* irrationality is aff"tin* si"ntifi #ro*r"ss.

Si"ntists ar" willin* to s#"a' o)t a*ainst #art of it. T"y ritii" #"o#l" wo !o O)iFa (oar!s

an! oroso#"s. T"y say, :Tat&s ri!i)lo)s,: ()t for so$" r"ason t"y tin' t"y so)l!n&t

s#"a' o)t a*ainst r"ation si"n" an! ot"r r"li*io)s ("li"fs tat ar" "%"n $or" o$$only

("li"%"! (y A$"rians.

If tis is t" a##roa tat si"ntists ar" *oin* to ta'", t"n it s""$s to $" tat t"y&r" not *oin*

to ao$#lis wat t"y s"t o)t to ao$#lis, wi is to "no)ra*" #"o#l" to tin'

si"ntifially. T" si"ntifi way of tin'in* an! of )n!"rstan!in* t" worl! as an "ono$i,

rational, an! #"ra#s "%"n a #aifyin* as#"t to it. I r"o*ni" tat si"ntists a%" !on" t"rri(l"

tin*s. W" a%" t" n)l"ar (o$( ("a)s" of O##"n"i$"r. Si"ntists ar" s#"a'in* o)t now an!

as'in*, :Yo) *)ys in t" $"!ia, wy !on&t yo) "l# )s "r"1: An! I&$ sayin*, :W"ll, yo)&r"

as'in* )s to "l# yo) in tis on" s#"ifi way, ()t w" an&t ao$#lis t" Fo( as lon* as yo)&r"

i*norin* ot"r as#"ts of irrational an! s)#"rstitio)s tin'in*.: S)#"rstition is not n""ssarily

synony$o)s wit r"li*ion, ()t it !o"s s""$ tat-in A$"ria at l"ast-t" two oft"n *o to*"t"r.

So w"n it o$"s to ritiiin* s)#"rstition, !o w" ar%" o)t an "+"#tion for r"li*ion1 Is it (a!

to a%" r"ationis$ ta)*t in sool, or isn&t it1 Si"ntists s""$ to tin' it is. Is it (a! tat t"r"

ar" oroso#"s in al$ost "%"ry n"ws#a#"r in t" Knit"! Stat"s, wil" at t" sa$" ti$" t"y&r"

losin* !own t"ir si"n" s"tions1 I tin' t"s" ar" !"isions tat w" a%" to $a'" as a soi"ty.

Audience Member: Has o$$)niation a!%an"! #ast *ro)# s"l"tion1

David Sloan Wilson: Y"s. I tin' t" r"ason tat soial )nits ("a$" lar*"r in E)ro#" is ("a)s"

of t" wi!"s#r"a! #rint $"!ia n"ws#a#"rs an! so on. ;"o#l" w"r" a!!r"ssin* o$$on iss)"s,

an! tat&s tr)" "%"n $or" so now. 8o$$)niation an (" a n"r%o)s syst"$ tat r"at"s lar*"r

*ro)#s, ()t it&s i$#ortant to say tat tat&s not in"%ita(l", (y any $"ans. T"r" ar" all 'in!s of


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!ysto#i s"narios. 0)st ("a)s" t" sal" of tin*s as ("o$" lar*"r !o"s not $"an tat w"&r"

*oin* to t)rn into a *r"at (i* or*anis$. It o)l! *o t" ot"r way. W" o)l! t)rn into a (i* *ro)#

in wi so$" "l"$"nts ta'" o%"r, an! w" *"t #"r$an"nt in"3)ality. Tis is anot"r r"ason wy I

tin' it&s i$#ortant to st)!y r"li*ions r"s#"tf)lly. If w"&r" *oin* to )n!"rstan! ow soi"ty

$i*t wor' at a lar*"sal", w" !a$nw"ll ("tt"r )n!"rstan! ow it wor's at a s$allsal". Tat&s

t" only $o!"l w" a%". T"n w" an try to ta'" so$" of tos" "l"$"nts an! sal" t"$ )#. O)r ("st $o!"ls for lar*"sal" oo#"ration ar" s$all"rsal" *ro)#s in wi oo#"ration !o"s "+ist.

Audience Member: I was won!"rin* if "it"r of yo) ar" fa$iliar wit t" wor' of D"s$on!

Morris, #arti)larly T" Na'"! A#" an! is t"ory of wy t" on"#t of Go! "%ol%"!.

Basially, w"n )$ans w"r" )nt"r*at"r"rs t"r" was on" !"s#oti al#a wo '"#t "%"ryon"

in or!"r, an! t"n, as w" "%ol%"! to ("o$" oo#"rati%" )nt"rs, w" r"at"! t" )lti$at" al#a-

Go!-wo '""#s )s all in lin". W" a%" "%i!"n" for tis in t" s)($issi%" *"st)r"s tat $ost

r"li*io)s *ro)#s $a'" to t"ir Go!, 'n""lin* an! (owin* t"ir "a!s an! so on.

David Sloan Wilson: Tat&s not 3)it" ri*t. Many of t" i* *o!s or $oraliin* *o!s !i!n&to$" into "+ist"n" )ntil lat"r on, wit lar*"rsal" soi"ti"s. H)nt"r*at"r"r soi"ti"s ar" %"ry

"*alitarian. T"y !on&t n""! to a%" a i**o! in t" way tat w" "n%ision it. B)t Morris !i!

$a'" on" *oo! #oint in is !is)ssion of $onot"isti r"li*ion. Wy !i! $onot"is$ o$"

a(o)t1 Its ori*ins li" in )lt)ral !isloation. H)$ans )s"! to (" (orn into a )lt)r". Yo) a! no

oi" a(o)t Foinin* anot"r )lt)r". In tis worl!, t"r" was no n""! to !istin*)is ("tw""n

r"li*ion an! ot"r as#"ts of soi"ty. It was all $"r*"! to*"t"r, an! yo) o)l! a%" $any

!iff"r"nt !"iti"s an! s#irits or"stratin* %ario)s as#"ts of yo)r lif". Mo!"rn r"li*ions !o tin*s

!iff"r"ntly. T"y a%" to *"t #"o#l" to Foin t" r"li*ion, an! t" r"li*ion as to $onitor its

$"$("rs. T" *ro)# is lar*"r. T"r" ar" $any $or" #"o#l", so t" o##ort)niti"s for #oliin*, for

#"o#l" to s)r%"y "a ot"r, ar" $or" li$it"!. At tis #oint, t" i!"a of a !"ity tat&s alls""in*

o$"s into #lay.

Audience Member: Natali" An*i"r !"sri("s a sli##"ry slo#" in $any %"rsions of r"li*ion

towar! a)toritarianis$. Y"t, as I list"n to Da%i! Sloan Wilson, " s""$s to (" !"sri(in* a

a##y %"rsion of "olo*y, in wi r"li*ion !o"s a lot of *oo! in t"r$s of s#r"a!in* %al)"s an!

(rin*in* *oo! tin*s to *ro)#s. I&! li'" to "ar fro$ (ot yo)-$ay(" F)st on" $or" ti$"-if, in

yo)r %i"w, r"li*ion "+a"r(at"s onflits ("tw""n #"o#l"s or affir$s %al)"s an! o$$)nity1

Natalie Angier: I tin' in tis o)ntry it&s t"n!in* towar! "+a"r(atin* onflit. T" #ro(l"$ is

tat it&s no lon*"r s)ffii"nt to (" a %a*)" ("li"%"r in r"li*ion. Yo) a%" to sow "%i!"n" of

("li"f. Tis is wat I $"ant w"n I tal'"! a(o)t r"li*ion %""rin* towar! a)toritarian an!"+tr"$" #ositions, an! tis is wy I finally f"lt o$#"ll"! to s#"a' o)t. ;)(li fi*)r"s !i!n&t )s"!

to a%" to !"lar" t"ir r"li*io)s ("li"fs. Now, "%"n Al Gor" as to #)t i$s"lf on !is#lay. H"

*i%"s tis fantasti si"ntifi #r"s"ntation a(o)t )n!"rstan!in* t" worl! an! )n!"rstan!in* t"

at$os#"r". H" as tis inr"!i(l" a(ility to synt"sis "nor$o)s a$o)nts of infor$ation. B)t at

t" "n! of is tal' " f""ls o$#"ll"! to s#"a' a(o)t t" r"ator. H"&s $a'in* so$" 'in! of

*"st)r" so tat " won&t (" atta'"!, at l"ast fro$ tat!ir"tion.


14/14

W"r" is tis o$in* fro$1 Wy is tis a##"nin* in tis o)ntry1 W" an&t F)st l"a%" it w"r" I

to)*t it was-"%ol%in* towar! a #la" w"r" yo) say, :O, l"t&s #)t r"li*ion asi!".: "nn"!y,

wo was 8atoli, want"! to !o tat. :I&$ not *oin* to (" r)n (y t" 8atoli 8)r wil" I&$

in offi",: " sai!. :Tis is not #art of t" !is)ssion.: B)t all of a s)!!"n yo) an&t *"t away

fro$ it. Tis is not a "alty !"%"lo#$"nt for tis soi"ty. Si"ntists ar" s)ff"rin*. ;"o#l" ar"

startin* to s"" t" Knit"! Stat"s as o$#ro$is"! (y t" ris" of "+tr"$" r"li*iosity. I ("li"%" tatsi"n" in A$"ria as (""n an inr"!i(l" "nt"r#ris", an! I tin' si"ntists a%" to #rot"t it, not

F)st w"n t"y f""l i$$"!iat"ly tr"at"n"!, ()t as a *"n"ral tin*. Tis is t" !ir"tion w" n""!

t" o)ntry to *o in-t" "+#loration an! a!%"nt)r" tat "%"ry(o!y an #artii#at" in, not F)st

tos" wo sow t"ir f"alty to so$"tin*. Tis is not a *oo! tin* *oin* on "r".

Of o)rs", I tin' it&s t"rri(l" wat&s *oin* on in t" Mi!!l" East. It&s $) $or" o$#liat"!

tan r"li*ion, an! I )n!"rstan! tat. Eono$i syst"$s ar" a #art of it, too. I !on&t want to so)n!

li'" so$" 'in! of si$#listi i!iot F)st tin'in* yo) an (la$" it all on r"li*ion. Not at all. My

#oint is tat w"n si"ntists as' $" to s#"a' o)t a*ainst Tis an! I say, :W"ll wat a(o)t Tat1:

It&s so$"#la" t"y !on&t want to *o. An! I say, :Don&t yo) tin' tat tis o)t(r"a' of irrationaltin'in* as a lar*"r a)s" tan F)st t" r"ation si"ntists1 T"y&r" not tat #ow"rf)l.: T"r"&s

so$" lar*"r #"no$"non tat w" n""! to a!!r"ss, an! si"ntists ar" !)'in* it.

David Sloan Wilson: W" want to "n! on a not" of a*r""$"nt. M) of wat&s *oin* on "r" is a

!is$antlin* of t" s"#aration of )r an! stat". Inst"a!, w" so)l! (" )lti%atin* t" attit)!"

tat To$as 0"ff"rson an! B"nFa$in ran'lin a!, tat it&s #"rf"tly a"#ta(l" to (" an at"ist,

tat an at"ist o)l! (" "l"t"! to #)(li offi", an! tat all r"li*io)s faits so)l! (" o#"n to

ritiis$ an! #)(li !iso)rs". I a%"n&t $"ntion"! st"alt r"li*ions y"t, ()t t"y&r" all o%"r t"

#la". If yo) tin' of nationalis$, if yo) tin' of fr""$ar'"t "ono$is, t"s" ar" st"alt

r"li*ions. T" :in%isi(l" an!: of t" $ar'"ts is not in%o'in* a s)#"rnat)ral a*"nt, ()t it is #)r"

fition. If yo) r"ally tin' "%"ryon" o#"ratin* in t"ir s"lf int"r"st is *oin* to $a'" lar*"sal"

soi"ty wor' w"ll-tis is f)nny. An! y"t #"o#l" will !"f"n! tis i!"a to t" !"at. If yo) loo' at

int"ll"t)al $o%"$"nts, aa!"$i $o%"$"nts, wat t" "ll !o"s it $"an to (" #olitially

orr"t1 Wat it $"ans is tat t"r"&s ina!$issi(l" st)ff tat yo) an&t ("li"%", an! if yo) !o,

yo)&r" o)t of "r". Many as#"ts of int"ll"t)al an! aa!"$i )lt)r" ar" F)st as intol"rant as any

f)n!a$"ntalist r"li*io)s $o%"$"nts. I tin' wat w" n""! to tal' a(o)t is t" nat)r" of ("li"f of

all 'in!s. All t" tin*s tat w"&r" tal'in* a(o)t in r"s#"t to r"li*ion, w" n""! to tin' a(o)t

$or" (roa!ly, in or!"r to !ia*nos" t"s" #ro(l"$s tat w" (ot a*r"" ar" #ro(l"$s.

a debate between natalie angier and david sloan wilson

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