acharya abhinavgupt on liberation - sri tantraloka verse 1.31

7/29/2019 Acharya Abhinavgupt on Liberation - Sri Tantraloka verse 1.31

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Christopher Wallis17 February

Abhinava gives a most extraordinary definition of liberation inhis Tantrloka, stripping it of its religious trappings:

"Liberation is not different from the Self as it is in its real

nature, infinitely free. It is neither a insignificant trifle nor theopposite [something to make a big deal about]. Thus a

separate name for it is not even needed." || Tantrloka 1.31

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You and32 otherslike this.

Christopher Wallis In other words, since liberation is youralready-existent true nature, we shouldn't even really have aname for it, for that risks making it into a thing-to-be-attained.it is already who You are -- just get quiet enough, and you feelit.

17 February at 15:26 Unlike5

Jaro MajerIf liberation is equated with a cosmic Self, than theindividual is re-absorbed into that which is understood as acosmic substratum at the cosmic pralaya... how is thatliberation? That which is considered you, is just more fodder forfuture Samsara during the next big bang. Is it not? Asexplained in Vasisthas Yoga, Siddhaloka is absorbed into Shiva
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Jaro MajerAccording to most forms of non-dual Hinduism,

the jivatman is non-different from Brahman, which could beequated with "svatantratma," considered the singularsubstance that is the un-caused cause for the arising of allbeing, that which the cosmos arises and subsides in andthrough.

17 February at 15:43 Edited Like

Christopher WallisJaro Majer, the age-old tradition ofBuddhist debate of aiva positions is still alive and well in you;personally, I have little interest in metaphysics these days.Suffice to say that one is not "subordinate to cosmic forces",one IS those cosmic forces. If you follow the doctrine all the

way through, there really is no practical difference between thedeveloped Buddhist and the developed aiva tradition. But toadmit that would be to sacrifice your view that the Buddhistsare ultimately more right. p.s. No Brahman in this view. Nordoes this Paramevardvaya-vda have much to do with"Hinduism".

17 February at 15:45 Edited Like 4

Jaro MajerMmmm... of course I'm debating semantics... aswho is to judge how one internalizes definitions? But, as far asthe surface goes, where language takes place, for clarity sake,there are definite differences in intentions as defined by the

corpus of the traditions. In Buddhist Tantra, there is never anidentity with cosmos, that just leads to being subordinate to
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such forces as being one with them. In Buddhism, we cutthrough... liberating from cosmic cycles and any form of staticidentity, completely. All Buddhas, even those identified as adi-

Buddhas were once Jivas in a previous cosmic cycle, there is noself caused entity. If one folllows the doctrines all the waythrough... in actuality, there is a difference in conclusion to thecause of liberation.


Christopher Wallis My point is that the verse definesliberation in a way consonant with Buddhism as well, and doesnot say anything about the cosmic cycles of which you speak,nor about God. Later Abhinava will get into God, but he doesn'tneed that term to define liberation, and it would confuse theissue because he means something very different by the wordGod than most people do: the totality of everything that exists

(or ever has or ever will) + a transcendent formless ground ofall that, a "ground" that is pure emptiness, a formless field ofinfinite potential.

17 February at 21:10 Edited Unlike 4

Jaro MajerHow emptiness is defined in monistic approachesis quite different from how it's defined in most forms ofBuddhism from the Buddha on, aside from certain spuriousforms. It is true that the term "self" is used in a positive sensein some Mahayana texts, like the Mahaparinirvanasutra, but it'snot being equated with a static ground of self existing being, orthe totality of all that could be, is and was, it's being equated

with the permanent insight that awakens an individual to the
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cause of liberation, which arises due to insight into emptinessas defined by Buddhas. Anyway, there are subtle differences,I've found... which is supported by the words of Buddhas past

and present, these differences are subtle grounds of differingthe experiential defining of the awareness that constitutesliberation. This is why liberation in Buddhism is always basedupon the bodhisattva intention and is never considered the actof identification with an abiding Self existence. It's not basedupon absorption, but on cutting through. Purelands orsatvalokas for Buddhas arise dependent upon the desire to helpendless Samsarins (which do not inherently exist, which does

not automatically denote an inherent existence), thus they areeternal, not based upon identity with an uncaused ground ofbeing, which according to Buddhism, doesn't exist and isconsidered a mis-awareness, sort of speak, and can beconsidered a mis-interpretation of spiritual experience from ameditative/contemplative point of view.


Johnny MartelHi Jaro. The words used by liberated beings toindicate Liberation, Freedom, Self, Moksha, God,Conscioueness, etc, are all meant to indicate something that isnot a "thing" and therefore that cannot be described by even

the very words being used for the description. The "it" beingdescribed is not an "it" at all. And the words are therefore,merely pointers (though powerful pointers) guiding ourattention to that which cannot be pointed to. And therefore,any speech used to describe that which is beyond explanation,is only a tool to disarm the student of concepts so that he/shemay see what cannot be seen while concepts still exist in themind. To debate (for example) whether the Self is "everything"

or "nothingness" is only something that keeps busy, those whodon't want to do the work to know that which is actually being
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alluded to. The words are indeed, by their nature and intent,just a semantic play to help the student go beyond allsemantics. It is pure folly (resulting from too much book

learning) to debate the relative truth or merit of what greatbeings teach. To argue that one true master's, path, orteaching is better than another's due to the semantics they useto describe their path, is to mistake the bubbles on the ocean'ssurface for being the deep blue sea, or to mistake the lightemanating from a small bulb for being the sun.

17 February at 17:05 Unlike4

Jaro MajerYour words still allude to an ultimate, self abiding,and transcendent truth as subsuming all... the internal definingof that is not merely semantic, but a deep tendency towardsSelf clinging, from myopic to cosmic. Also, "emptiness" inBuddhism is not assuming, "nothingness." This is a popular

misunderstanding, it's alluding to relativity as ultimate, as in...no ultimate truth as the ultimate truth. To make the non-conceptual ultimate is still an extreme. The beauty ofdependent origination over the view of independent originationis that there is no aspect or non-aspect that is made ultimate.But yes... if the result of the teaching is freedom fromproliferation, than the goal is met... no matter the name of the

path, one is awake! As I said above, one cannot judge anotheras to how they internalize spiritual meaning from grossconceptual formats. But, it's quite clearfrom...http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html, that many traditions error within the extreme of one orthe other views presented therein. Not all roads lead to Rome,because truly, there is no ultimate, self abiding source ofexistence which all roads come from...
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reincarnation etc.) as opposed to the non-dual Shaivite stancewhich appears much more playful (happily playing the game ofholding and letting go, hide and seek). But maybe I have an

attachment to playfulness (and will be reborn in the realm ofCosmic Jesters?) Certainly my Buddhist friends will try to installthat concern. And it maybe that different personalities areattracted to each of these approaches (due to conditioning) -but both end up in the same place?

17 February at 18:55 Like4

Christopher Wallis Lemme bring it back to the verse againand repeat this (to me) very very important and practicalcomment:

In this system, we are taught that our only problem isDISPROPORTIONALITY OF ATTENTION. In other words, we

pay more attention to what is peripheral, and less attention towhat is central and abiding. By paying attention to the mind-stream of reactive thoughts and feelings, we give it energy,which makes it "grow" disproportionately in our awareness,which makes us give it more energy, etc., in a cycle. But if wesimply learn to give as much (or more) attention to thechangeless ground of the mind-stream, the "sky" in which the

clouds of thoughts and feelings come and go, then over timeits stillness and presence become more and more powerful.Then you realize directly what Abhinava is talking about: thatyou already are liberated. The fact that you are currently usingthat freedom to strengthen your stories until they appear realand binding only PROVES HIS POINT. You are so free, you arefree to be bound.

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Michelle IndianerI like this.. We can stop using the word

and just experience what we experience. If that changes, itchanges. Or not. IMHO, this is a relief.

17 February at 21:44 via mobile Like 2

Mark GencoGood discussion, and excellent quote andcommentary Mr. Wallis! Whenever I read these short quotes byAbhinavagupta, it's such a blast. It's similar to when I read apage or two from Suzuki Roshi's Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.Jaro, your comments were also very keen. Well said everyone.

17 February at 22:07 via mobile Like 1

Jaro MajerMark Davis, are you not familiar with Mahamudraor Dzogchen? Your statement is not reflective of someone thatis... also, we are more apt to say, "re-birth" since there is noinherent entity that is to be reincarnated. It's more of a playfulstream than a re-molding of a static identity. Also, "nervousapprehension?" Your experience of Buddhism is reflective of asubjective karmic projection... of course.

17 February at 23:09 Like

Jaro MajerAlso, to suggest, "same place" would be reflective

of monistic thinking, a kind of imperialism that wants tosubsume everything without respect to how vast and
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multivariate the cosmos is. Though all connected and non-substantially non-dual, that doesn't assume an inherent"oneness" either. Though it's true that in Vajrayana, some

Shaivite deities are considered Buddha emanations for the sakeof those that still need those types of teachings. Everyone hastheir process that is necessary and important... as it is indeedall a lila of endlessly evolving inter-dependencies.


Jaro MajerYes, we are inherently liberated, but not due to anabiding Self existence, but rather due to the lack of such... areall arisings self liberated. There are blissful pit stops that areseemingly liberating, but not necessarily reflective of thatinsight which does indeed liberate, according toBuddhadharma. But yes... as Michelle Indianer say's. It's all anevolving play and process, nothing to take with a sense of

static seriousness.

17 February at 23:28 Like1

Jaro MajerI like having these debates from a sense of

playfulness with my buddy Hareesh from time to time... keepsthe mind sharp. Can't take any of it seriously though... it'scelebratory, as everything. Playfulness is very important,otherwise we have a tendency to do more clinging than openlearning.

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11/14

Jaro MajerChristopher Wallis, "changeless ground?" I can re-arrange that in my mind to reflect the understanding ofpermanent impermanence... but there is no inherent,

"changeless ground" that one can identify, other than thecause of re-spawning into Samsara... i.e. the alaya-vijnana.This does lead to high bliss realms when clarified to one degreeor another, but through merely subtlifying (made up word) thepersonal identity through absorption techniques, one is merelyentering into other realms of Samsara, as indicated in theabove explanations of the 31 planes of existence.


Michelle Indianer(Most of the Abhinava quotes are tooelliptical, metaphorical or poetical for me to understand . I likethe clarity of this oneChristopher Wallis)

17 February at 23:50 via mobile Like

Mark DavisJaro Majer- my comments are with regard to howthe Buddhist stance appears to me in these discussions....which seem a little too eager to get somewhere... to see

clinging and to avoid it. Is it skillfulness in freeing others? It feltmore like a discussion on the relevant strengths and skills ofone's favorite football team. Hence my invitation toplayfulness... I find Mahamudra teachings wonderfully elegantand shockingly freeing - though I claim no special knowledge ofthem. The space between my ears... it's just space, but mymind can't measure it.... when it tries to it's like Jnaneshwar'sdoll of salt who tries to swim to the bottom of the ocean.... all

gone but a taste remains.
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12/14

Monday at 00:36 Like2

Jaro MajerMark Davis - Debate can indeed be quite helpfulwithin the scope of spiritual practice, through challenging viewpoints. The Buddha did it... etc. etc. We see where we'reprojecting identity clinging. Having grown up my entire life in amonistic idealism, i.e. SY, having meditated quite beautifullywithin the contemplation of that frame of reference and havingexperienced directly the fruits of that... then having debated

with scholarly and experienced Buddhists with open humility, Icould only surrender to the insights that dawned, breaking mefree from the idealism of monistic clinging which I blissfullyidentified with. Like I said, it's difficult to ascertain how anindividual is internally interpreting a conceptual structure,especially within spiritual, abstract discussion.

So, your statement was more a judgement of my personal lackof Buddhahood it seems... lol? So, it's more of an ad hominemreflective of your identity with Shaivism being challenged? Yes,I'm not a Buddha/Mahasiddha and I have plenty of work to doon my self awareness. Thank you for pointing that out... ;^P

Monday at 01:15 Edited Like

Jaro MajerI like the last part of your last statement though...nicely said. Jnaneshwar was a favorite of mine.

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13/14

Mark DavisJaro Majer - sorry if I landed a little heavily... wastrying to light heartedly work out what was "snagging me" inthe discussion! It's a little tricky to move a discussion to be

reflective of an emotional tone (and therefore intention/need),certainly that doesn't have to be taken as an ad hominemcritique... but rather an invitation to be present to emotion(and NOT to take it personally).With that prior frame of reference I can understand youreagerness to share the openness and spaciousness of thatwhich broke you free. Debate can certainly be helpful anddeepen non-conceptual awareness, and it can help make clear

not only ideas but also emotion. By the way I am sure you areaware of Daniel Odier's work... I very much enjoyed his bookon Spanda Karikas which seemed to bring together Mahamudraand NST in a very natural fusion of poetry and spatiality(though I suspect scholars of both schools find fault with hisapproach).


Jaro MajerYes, it's fine...

Also, yes, I'm aware of Daniel Odier's work. The problem isthat when one has the direct insight of dependent origination

dawn, you find that it really isn't compatible with independentorigination, they don't lead to the same kind...See More

Monday at 06:58 Like

Ron Brent Christopher- Are these your interpretations?

Tuesday at 19:23 via mobile Unlike1
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14/14

Christopher Wallis HiRon/Yogirm, I am posting rather

literal translations of Tantrloka verses. I try to stay astransparent as possible and just present Abhinava's words. Thepart in brackets in the main post above is of course myexplanatory addition. I sometimes put additional explanationsin the comments.

Yesterday at 16:37 Unlike 2

Ron BrentChristopher Wallis, I find your usage of the Englishlanguage to be concise, commanding and powerful, which Iguess means your understanding of the texts is excellent.Thus, I always pay attention when I come upon your posts.

22 hours ago via mobile Like
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acharya abhinavgupt on liberation - sri tantraloka verse 1.31

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