episode 1 transcriptthe campfire transcript of episode 1: a historian’s take on mormonism with...

TheCampfireTranscriptofEpisode1:AHistorian’sTakeonMormonismwithPatrickMasonMaxBenavidez:WelcometoClaremontGraduateUniversity'spodcast,theCampfire.Todaywe'redoingEpisode1withProfessorPatrickMason,whoisaprofessorofReligiousStudiesandtheHowardW.HunterChairinMormonStudies,andhe'salsothedeanoftheSchoolofArts&HumanitieshereatClaremontGraduateUniversity.HeearnedhisdegreesfromtheUniversityofNotreDame,andpriortojoiningCGU,PatrickheldpositionsattheUniversityofNotreDameandtheAmericanUniversityinCairo.HeisaninternationallyrecognizedauthorityonMormonism.He'shadregularappearancesinvariousmediaoutletsincludingtheNewYorkTimes,theLosAngelesTimes,theWashingtonPost,CNN,ABCNews.Andhe'stheauthorofTheMormonMenace:ViolenceandAnti-MormonisminthePost-BellumSouth,publishedbyOxfordUniversityPress.AndhehasanewbookoutcalledWhatIsMormonism:AStudent'sIntroduction,publishedbyRoutledge.Benavidez:Patrick,welcometoTheCampfire.PatrickMason:Greattobehere,Max,thanks.Benavidez:Iwanttostartbyaskingyou"WhatisMormonStudies?"Mason:That'sagreatquestion.Reallyit'snothingmorecomplicatedthantheacademicstudyofMormonism,butitgetsalittletrickier,becausealotofpeopleespeciallywhoarereligiousthemselves–thisbecomescomplicatedforpeopletounderstandwhatisreligiousstudiesingeneral.MormonStudiesisasubsetofreligiousstudies,justlikeyoucouldstudyCatholicismorIslamorBuddhismoranyothertraditionwithinthekindofbroaderfamilyofworldreligions.SoMormonStudiesfocusesjustontheMormontradition,butwhatitdoesisitbringstheacademictoolsthatwe'vedevelopedovertime,whetheritbehistoricalstudyorsociologicaltoolsoranthropologicaltoolsorlookingatitthroughthelensofpoliticsorgender,anynumberofthesekindsofacademiclensestotrytounderstandthereligionanditsadherentsbetter.Soitcouldbelookingathistoryortheologyorcultureorritualanyaspectofthetraditioninthecontextofthebroaderculture.Benavidez:Isn'tMormonismarelativelynewreligion?Mason:It'sareallynewreligion.Imeanit'slessthan200yearsold.AndsothereligionbeganwiththefoundingprophetJosephSmithhavingaseriesofvisionsinthe1820s.Sowe'reless

thantwocenturies...andthatwashereinthecontinentalUnitedStates.Imean,andthisisoneofthefascinatingthingsaboutMormonism,youknowalotofpeoplehavecalledit“theAmericanreligion.”ImeanthereareotherAmericanreligions,ofcourse,butintermsofbornandraisedhereintheUnitedStates,unlike,youknow,manyoftheotherolderreligions,ofcourse,JudaismandIslamandChristianity–alloriginatingintheMiddleEast–BuddhismandHinduism–inSouthandEasternAsia.AndsoMormonismisadistinctlyAmericancreationwhichhasnowgoneglobal.Imeanthethingthatalotofpeopledon'tunderstandorrecognizeisthattherearenowmoreMormonsoutsidetheUnitedStatesthaninsidetheUnitedStates,soit'sanincreasinglyglobalreligion–butitstartedhereintheUnitedStates.AndthathappenedbecauseofthemissionaryworkthatalotofMormonsdo.Benavidez:Isn'tthatpartofthe...Ithinkwhenyouareacertainageyougooffforayearortwoanddomissionarywork.Isthathowitworks?Mason:Yeah,that'sright.Missionaryworkwasbuiltinfromthevery,verybeginning,andit'snowbecomeverycommon.Andit'snotmandatory,butit'shighlyrecommended.Andsoalotofyoungpeople,mostoftheactiveyoungpeopleintheChurchofJesusChristofLatter-DaySaints(whichistheformalnameofthemaininstitutionalchurchthatwetalkaboutwithMormonism)….butmostyoungpeoplegoonthesemissions,asyousaid,either[for]18monthsortwoyears,andtheycanbesentanywherearoundtheworld.AndsotherealgrowthinMormonismwe'veseenaroundtheworldhasbeensinceWorldWarII.Asaresultofbothpopulationgrowth–Mormonstendtohavelargefamilies–butalsomostlythroughthismissionarywork.Benavidez:SoyouyourselfwerebornintoaMormonfamily.Soyou'reaMormonandhereyouarenow,you'reascholarandyou'restudyingyourownreligion.What'sthatlike?Becauseyouknowyou'rebringingacriticalview,sotospeak,tothereligionyougrewupwith.Mason:Yeah,itcanbeawkwardsometimes,I'llbehonest.AndIthinkthiswouldbetrueofalotofotherreligiousscholarswhowouldsaythesamethingiftheyarealsoascholarofthetraditionthattheyinhabitorwereraisedin.Soyou'reright.ImeanIwasbornintoaMormonfamilyandraisedasaMormon.IservedaMormonmission.Benavidez:Where'dyougo?Mason:IwenttoSeattle.Notveryexotic.IhadabrotherthatwenttothePhilippinesandhadallkindsofgreatstories.IwenttoSeattle.Butyoudon'tgettochoosewhereyougo.Theyjustsendyou.Imeanyouopenanenvelopeandyoucouldbegoinganywhereintheworld,speakinganylanguageyouknow.Soyoudon'tchoose,allyoudoissignupandsayyou'rewillingtodoandthenthechurchsendsyou.SoyeahIgrewupandwenttoBrighamYoungUniversity,whichisthechurch'suniversity,formyundergraduateeducation.ButIwasalwaysinterestedinhistory,soIwentandgotmyPhDinhistoryattheUniversityofNotreDameandwasparticularlyinterestedinreligioushistory.I'vealwaysbeenfascinatedinthewaythatreligionoperates.Itmovespeopleinlotsof

differentways,whetheritbeintermsofpoliticsorthewaythattheyorganizetheirfamilies,thewaythattheyorganizetheirsocieties.SoI'vealwaysbeeninterestedinthat,especiallyintheAmericancontext.SoIneverhadaplantomakeMormonstudiesthekindofforefrontofmycareer,themainfocusofmyresearch.Ithappenedalmostaccidentally.Iendedup...Ididalotofworkingraduateschoolonreligionandviolenceandpeacebuilding;Igotamaster'sdegreeinInternationalPeaceStudies.AndIwroteadissertationonviolenceagainstreligiousminoritiesinthelate19thcenturyAmericanSouth,andMormonswerejustoneofthecasesthatIincluded.IlookedatCatholicsandJewsandblackChristians,butitturnedoutthattherewasjustthisenormousamountofviolenceagainstMormonsinthelate19thcenturySouththathadn'tbeendocumented.Andthatbecamemyfirstbook,soIjustsortofgotpulledintoitbyvirtueoftheresearchitself.Imeanthesourcessurprisedme.HistoricaloccurrencesthatIdidn'tknowthatweregoingtobethere.Andsothat'sthefunthingaboutresearch:Sometimesitsurprisesusandbringssurprisingnews.Anditcertainlysurprisedme;itwasn'twhatIexpectedgoingin.Ididn'tgotogradschoolthinkingIwasgoingtodoMormonstudies.IthoughtIwasgoingtodosomeotherthings.Butyou'reright.WhatitmeansisthatIapproachmyreligionbothwiththeeyesofascholarandapplyingallthekindofcriticalanalysisandcriticalthinkingthatwebringasascholar,butIalsocontinuetoinhabitthetraditionasapersonwhogoestochurchonSunday.Andthosearetwodifferentlanguages,thosearetwodifferentsensibilities.I'mabletodoboththings,andyousortofhavetonavigatethat.Ithinkit'shardforpeopletounderstandsometimes.Imeanevensomeofmyfellowchurchmembers,theydon'tunderstandthatIsometimesamspeakingasascholar,right?Notasachurchmember,becausethatisadifferentkindoflanguage.Benavidez:Letmeaskyouthis.CanyoudefineMormonismforpeoplewhodon'tknow?Someofourlisteners,they'veheardaboutitandtheygo,WhatisitexactlyandwhyisitMormonism?Andsomepeoplehaveaskedme,isMormonismaformofChristianity,isitChristianity?Soifyoucouldtalkaboutthatalittlebit,becauseIthinkalotofpeoplewonder:Whatexactlyisit?Mason:Exactly,Ithinkthat'sagreatquestion.Imeanitreallygoesbacktotheoriginsofthereligioninthe1820s.SoitbeginswithJosephSmith,thisfoundingprophet,whowasactually14yearsoldatthetime.Benavidez:Whenhehasthesevisions…Mason:Hehasthesevisions,exactly.Andhe'sgoingaroundtodifferentChristianchurches,toBaptistsandMethodistsandPresbyterians,goingtovariousrevivalsthattheywouldhave.Andhewasconfusedaboutwhichofthechurchesheshouldjoin.ThisisthekindofstandardstorythattheMormonstell.AndsohefoundaverseintheBiblethatsaysyoushouldprayaboutthisifyou'reconfusedandsohewentintothewoodsnearhisfarmhouseandheprayedandhe

saysthatthatGodandJesuscameandtoldhimnottojoinanyofthechurches.Andlateronhehadaseriesofothervisionsinwhichheultimatelyreceivedwhatwerecalledgoldenplates.Imeanactuallyplatesmadeoutofgoldthatwereburiedinthegroundthatanangelpointedhimto.AndhesaidthroughthepowerofGodhewasabletotranslatethatintowhatisnowtheBookofMormon,whichisthemainadditionalbookofscripturethatMormonshaveinadditiontotheBible,theOldandNewTestamentthatotherChristiansread.Andsohestartedthisnewchurch,thisnewreligion.Andalotofpeoplehaveasked,Well,whatisit?DoesitfitwithinChristianity,orisitanotherProtestantreligion?Isitawholereligionaltogether?Andactuallyscholarshavedebatedoverthisandsomehavesaidno,it'sawholedifferentreligionaltogether,or,itisaformofChristianity.Ithinkthere'sakindofgrowingconsensus,andwhatIwouldsayisthatMormonismisakindofseparatebranchofChristianity.ThatyouhaveRomanCatholicism,youhaveofcourseProtestantismthatbrokeofffromthataftertheReformation500yearsago,youhaveorthodoxy–GreekOrthodoxy,RussianOrthodoxy–allofthosechurchesthatsplitofffromtheCatholicChurchaboutathousandyearsago.AndthenIthinkMormonismbelongsasaseparateanduniquebranchofChristianitythatsharesalotofaspectsofotherChristianbeliefandpractice.SoagainthechurchiscalledtheChurchofJesusChristofLatter-daySaints.MormonswouldsayyouknowtheyworshipJesusChristandreadtheNewTestamentandallthosethings.Butit'sdifferentenough.It'snotjustkindofanotherProtestantchurchbecauseitmakesclaimsaboutbeingtheonetruechurchthatGodhasrestoredbackonEarthinmoderntimes.Benavidez:Soit'snotlikeaBaptistoraMethodistoraPresbyteriankindofformofChristianity.You'resayingit'sseparatefromthat.Thosearemoresimilar.Thisisseparate.Mason:Yeah,exactly.Imeanintermsofitstheologyyoumakecertaintheologicalclaimswhichdepartfromsuch.Benavidez:Suchas.Mason:Sooneofthethingsifwewanttogetreallykindoftheological:SothetraditionalChristianbeliefinGodisintheTrinity,right?ThattheGod,Jesus,andtheHolySpiritareallthreeinoneroom.AndinthevastmajorityofChristianchurches,whetherProtestantCatholicorOrthodox,agreeonsomeformoftheTrinity.MormonsalsobelieveinGod,Jesus,andtheHolySpirit,buttheybelievethereareactuallythreedifferenttotallyseparatebeings,soit'snotthreeinone,likeSt.PatrickusedtoteachtheIrishabouttheShamrock,right?Youknow.Oratleastthelegendhasit.ButtheMormonsdon'tbelievethatit'sthreeinonebutthereareactuallythreeseparatebeings.Andsothere'sdifferentideasaboutthenatureofGod.Benavidez:IsJesusstilltheSonofGod?Mason:JesusisstilltheSonofGodbutnotGod.Buthe'snotonewithhimandheisone.AndMormonswouldsayhe’soneinpurposewithGod.Buthe'snotthesamebeing.Andsosomeofthosearesortofarcanetheologicaldebates,right?Butitalsoplaysoutinthewaythat

MormonsbelievethatwhenJesuswasonEarthintheNewTestamentthathesetupachurchandcalledApostlesanddisciplesandhegavethemauthority.ButMormonswouldsaythatthatauthoritywaslostafterJesusdied,aftertheApostlesdied,thatthechurchwentintoaperiodofapostasy,wherethechurchlostnotonlytruthbutalsoauthority.SoMormonssaythatMormonismwasrequired[because]Godhadtorestoreanewchurchtobringthatauthorityback.SoMormonsdon'trecognizeotherChristians’baptisms,right?SoifyouwerebaptizedRomanCatholicandwantedtobecomeaMormon.you'dhavetogetre-baptizedagain.Sotherearesomeofthosekindsofdifferencesaswell.Benavidez:AndwhoisMormon,isMormonanangel?Mason:Greatquestion,whatdoesthenameevencomefrom?ItcomesfromtheBookofMormon.Thisadditionalbookofscripture,whichtheBookofMormonis–atleastwhatitpurportstobebyitsownaccount–isarecordofancientAmericanscripture.SojustliketheHolyBiblewaswrittenbyprophetsintheNearEast,inJerusalemPalestineandenvirons,theBookofMormonpurportstobearecordofancientprophetshereintheAmericas,peoplewhogotonaboatfromJerusalem,ImeanthattheywentdowntotheArabianPeninsulathenbuiltboatsandsailedovertotheNewWorld.AndthenforathousandyearshadacivilizationherewithChristianprophetshereintheAmericas.Benavidez:Whereweretheylocated?Mason:Theexactgeographyisn't....Benavidez:Soit'sliketheBibleinthesenseit'ssometimes,youdon'tknowwhereexactlyParadiseislocated.Buttherewasaparadise,right?Mason:Right,exactly.AndwheredidNoah'sArklandandallthatkindofstuff…AlthoughMormonshavespeculatedaboutthisandsentarchaeologistsdowntoCentralAmericanruinsyouknowtotryandfindthesethings.Butit'snotdefinitive.It'soneofthecritiquesoftheBookofMormonrightthatthearchaeologyisn'tasstrongasBiblicalarchaeology,right?Whereisthearchaeologicalproofofthesemassivecivilizationsthatittalksabout?ButtheideaisthattheseancientAmericancivilizationshadprophetswhotaughtaboutJesusChrist.SotheBookofMormonisadeeplyChristiantext.ButtheideaisthatitwashereintheAmericas,andaseparaterecordfromtheBible,butanotherwitnessofJesusChristasMormonsbelieveit.Benavidez:OnethingIwasstruckbywaswhenyousaidearlierthatyouknowyouareascholarbutyoualsoarepartofthechurch–you'reachurchmember.Andsohowdoyoudealwiththatkindofconflict,becauseyouarehighlyrecognizedforyourscholarlywork,andatthesametimeyou'rethereinthechurchonaSundayandprayingtoGod,prayingto,andfollowing.Howdoyoubalancethat?Becauseatsomepointyou'vegottoalsohavefaith,whichisdifferentthanwhatascholarisalwaysquestioning.Right?

Mason:Yeah.Youdon'tgettenurebasedonhavingfaith.No,exactlyright.Imeanthereare,there'sdifferenttoolsandyouhavetobeinasomewhatdifferentmindsetandadifferentapproach.Andforalotofpeoplethisis…there'sarealtensionhere,there'saconflict,youknow,betweenfaithandscholarship,orfaithandreason.Benavidez:Howdoyouhandlethat?Mason:Forme,Iseeitnotsomuchasaconflictbutrathercomplementarypartsofawholehumanself.TherearelotsofpartsofmeasahumanthatarequitedifferentthanthekindsofthingsthatIdoasascholar–myrelationshipwithmywifeandmyfamily,forinstance,arenotbasedoncriticalthinkingandtherigorousexaminationofevidence.Exactly.Thisispartofthehumancondition.Right.Andsoformepersonally–andIknowit'sdifferentforeverybody–butformepersonally,thekindofreligiousencounterispartofthehumanexperience,right,intermsofmyencounterwithsomethingIrecognizeoridentifyasGod,orthedivine,andIfindMormonismasthevehiclethroughwhichI'mabletoexpressandpracticethat.AndsoIthinkthisisalljustpartofbeingawholehuman.ButIalsocompletelyvaluethelifeofthemindandthekindsofthingsthatwedoasscholars,theveryrigorouscarefulexaminationofevidence,andthat'sforcedmetogobackandrethinksomeofthereligiousbeliefsthatIhadgrowingup.SothekindofstoriesthatIhad–whenIgobackandlookatthedocuments,Isay,well,maybeitdidn'thappenthatway.AndinfactMormonismisgoingthroughaperiodrightnowoftransition,ofhavingtorevisitsomeofitshistoricalnarrativesbecauseitturnsoutthesourcesarealittledifferentthanthekindsofstoriesthatwetoldinSundayschoolgrowingup,right?Andsothere'sakindofmaturationthatMormonismisundergoingrightnowinlargepartbecauseofitshistorians,andinsomeways,I'mapartofthatprocess.Benavidez:Isthisarevision?Mason:Itisarevision.Imeanit'sarevisionofthestoriesthatwetoldforalongtime.Benavidez:That'skindofabigdeal…Here'sthiswholereligionandnowlikeyouweresayingearlierit'sgrowingallovertheworld.We'lltalkaboutthatinasecond.Buthereyouarebeingpartoftherevisionofthereligionitself.Mason:Yeah.Andit'sexcitingbutit'salsoscaryforalotofpeopleinthepews,right?Ofcourse.Soformeit'sinvigoratingtoseethis,andagainIseethisasallkindofcomplementary,youknow,faithandreason.Butforalotofpeopleit'slike,youknow…Imagineifyou'reraised40,50,60yearsonacertainstoryaboutchurchhistory,right?Thensomeacademichistorianlikemecomesalong–evenifI'machurchmember–thatcomesalongandsays,well,actuallywe'vegonebacktothedocumentsandthatthingthatyoubelievedforsolongandthatwastaughtbychurchauthoritiesoverthepulpit…right?Itisactuallyyouknowthatwegottochangethestory.That'sreallyunsettling.Benavidez:Itisunsettlingandyou'realsocallingintoquestiontheauthorityofthesefigureswhocamebeforeandwereheldinhighregard.Nowyou'resaying,wellwe'vegottochange

thestory.Doyouundercuttheauthority?Imeanyouare,Icanseewhypeopleinthepewsmightbealittlescared.Mason:That'sexactlyit.YouputyourfingeronitexactlyandthisispreciselywhereMormonismfindsitselfrightnowandinfacttherearealotofpeoplewhoarerenegotiatingtheirrelationshipwiththechurch.Manyofthemareleavingthechurchbecausetheyfeellikesomeofthesenewfindings,historicalfindingsorotherthingslikethis,haveundercutthetraditionalnarrativethattheygrewupwithandthey'renotsurethattheytrustinthechurch'sauthorityorreliability.Benavidez:Dosomepeopleconsiderthisrevisionradical,becauseyouhavepeopleleavingandquestioningtheoldsourcesandauthorityfigures.Isn'tthatkindofaradicalthing?Mason:Yeah,Imean,inaway.Ithinkmostofuswhoarehistorians,wedon'tthinkofourselvesasradicals.Imeanwethinkofourselvesaskindofjustgoingaboutourbusinessanddoingalotofcarefulwork,right?Butforalotofpeoplethisisakindof,youknow,onsomeoftheseissuesthere'sbeenakindof180orclosetoit.I'llgiveyouanexample.Mormonsareknown,thatit'swell-knownthathistoricallyMormonspracticedpolygamyinthe19thcentury.AndforalongtimethiswasreallykindofpinnedonBrighamYoung,whowasthesecondprophetandpresidentofthechurchafterJosephSmithwaskilled.AndJosephSmith'sparticipationinpolygamywasalittlebitshadowyandpeopledon'treallytalkaboutitverymuchbecauseyouknowpolygamyisn'tparticularlypopularnowadays.TherewasthissenseofwantingtoprotectJosephSmith'sreputation.Well,thehistoricalsourcesshowthatJosephSmithwastheonewhointroducedpolygamyandheoftenpracticeditinsecret.Hemarriedsomeunderagewomen,youknow,someteenagewomen.Heinfacthadpolygamousmarriages,eventoothermen'swives.ImeantherewerealotofaspectsofpolygamyaspracticedbyJosephSmith.AgainthiswasnotpartoftheSundayschoolnarrative,right?Andsonowforhistorianstocomealongandpresentthisinformationaboutthechurch'sfounder,thereligion'sfounder,right?Thathewasactuallyapolygamist,yeah,andapolygamistinawaythatseemsunsettling,againmarryingyouknowa14-year-oldgirlormarryingothermen'swives,right?Nowthisisrichlydocumentedhistorically,sothisiswell-attestedinthesources,butthisishardforpeopletoswallow.Andyoucanseethatofcourse.Andsoyouknowthefounderofourreligion,thattheprophetwhowethinkrevealedallthesethingsfromheavenandhadthesevisionsofGodandJesusandangels,youknow,thatthathewasdoingthisandhowdoyouwrapyourmindaround…howdoyoumakesenseofthat.Benavidez:Areyouhelpingpeopledothat,youandotherscholars?BecausethenwhatisMormonismifthefounder,thevisionary,sotospeak,hadtheseotherthingsgoingonthatweweren'tallawareof?

Mason:Right,Imeanmyjobasascholaristolayouttheevidence,andtosayhere'swhatweknowbasedonthedocuments.There'salotofthingswedon'tknow.Imeanforanyhistorianthere'salwaysfrustrationthatthere'salwaysgapsinthehistoricalrecord.Weneverknowasmuchaswewanttoknow.Andthisisagreatexampleofthat,thattherearealotofgapsintermsofthehistoricalrecord.Butintermsofwhatwehave,thisiswhatweknow,right?Andwe'renotgoingtoarguewiththefacts.Andalsothejobofthehistorianistoputthingsinabroadercontext–thisiswhatweknowaboutmarriageatthetime,thisiswhatweknowaboutkindoftheologicalorculturalideasaboutmarriageorsexuality…That'sthejobofthehistorian,right?Sortofkindofletthechipsfallwheretheyare.Andthenthere'stheotherpartofit,there'sthepastoralside–that'sthejobofchurchleadersorchurchmembersortheologianswithinthechurchtomakesenseofthathistoricaldataandtrytocomeupwithanswersthatmakesenseofthatwithintheframeworkoffaith.Soyouknowtherearealotofotherscholarswhoaredoingthiskindofworkaswell,bothhistoriansbutalsotheologiansandotherswithinthechurch.Benavidez:Sowoulditbefairtosay,Patrick,thatMormonismisinaperiodoftransitionthenofsomesort?Mason:Ithinkso,absolutely.Andtherehavebeen,youknow,acoupleofotherperiodsoftransitionforMormonismandforeveryreligion.Imean,noreligion…Firstandforemost,I'mahistorian.Andsowhatishistory?It’sthestudyofchangeovertime.Andsonothingeverstaysthesame,especiallyinthemodernperiod,wherechangeissorapid,sofast.Justthinkabouttechnology.Andsoreligionschangetoo.Andweare…Butsometimesthechangeisfasterthanothertimes..AndIthinkweareinaperiodofrealtransitionforMormonism.Alotofitisinresponsetoaneraofsocialmedia,totheInternet.Benavidez:Really?Howisthat?Mason:Wellbecause,formostofitshistory,andmostofhumanhistory,accesstoinformationwasverydifficult.HowmanypeopleweregoingtogotothelibraryatOxford,tryingtogetalltheinformation,orinSaltLakeCity,ortheVatican,orwhereveritmightbe,right?Itwasdifficulttoaccess.Youknowsomeofthesekindsofsources…HowmanypeoplewerereallygoingtotakethetimetogetaPhDandreadallthesebooksandthingslikethat?Sosomeofthismoreobscureknowledgewasreallythepurviewofthekindofacademicelite.WelltheInternetchangedallofthat.Itdemocratizedknowledge.Itflattenedtheworld,youknow,touseTomFriedman'slanguageanditcreatedaninformation-richenvironmentforeverybody,includingforreligiouspeople.Andsonowthingsthatwereverydifficulttoknow,knowledgethatwasdifficulttoaccessaboutMormonhistory…Scholarsknewthisstuff.Imeanthat'stheinterestingthingformeisthatforalotofpeoplewhoencounterthisstuffontheInternet,thisisarevelationtothem,well,scholarshaveknownthisforalongtime.Butnobodylistenstoscholars.Benavidez:Yesandno.Patrick,wecantalkaboutthatinasecond.SoifIGoogleJosephSmithandpolygamy,yeah,thenI'mgoingto…

Mason:You'llfindallkindsofstuff,right.Whereasbefore,youknow,itwasthechurchthatcontrolledthenarrativeforitsmembers.Andthechurchwasn'ttalkingaboutJosephSmith'spolygamy.Andwecouldtalkabout,wasthechurchhidingitorlyingaboutitorweretheyjustnottalkingaboutit,right?Theydidn'tthinkitwasrelevant.Butnow,exactly,anybodycandoaquickGooglesearchandcomeupwithallkindsofinformationaboutMormonismandwe'veseenthishappenbothforpeoplewithinthechurchandpeopleoutsidethechurch.Andsoallreligions,allinstitutions,havetohavetodealwiththis,aneweraoftransparency.Howdoyoudealwiththingsinaninformation-richera?Benavidez:Andtomeit'sinterestingtoo.AndI'dliketogetyourtakeonthisassomeonewhostudiesMormonismthatpopularcultureseemstobetoacertainextenttakenwithit.TheHBOseriesBigLove–verypopularshow,notjustwithMormonsatall…Mason:MostlynotwithMormons…Benavidez:…MostlynotwithMormons.AndthenofcourseonBroadway,TheBookofMormon,andyouknowImean,howdoyouhowdoyoufeelaboutthat?Mason:Andbeforethat,AngelsinAmerica,theTonyKushnerplaythatwonthePulitzerPrizewasbasedonit.ImeansoMormonsdopopupinpopularculture.Benavidez:They'repartofAmericanculture.Mason:Absolutely.AndinalotofwaysthisisoneofthegreatsuccessesofMormonismtobepilloriedonBroadway,right?Butinakindoflovingway.Benavidez:No,Ithinkit'sactuallyveryendearing.I'mnotaMormon,butI'mjustsayingwhenIsawtheplay,Ijustthought,Oh,thisislikeafunkindofloveletter,almost.Mason:That'sright.Imeanyouknowit'spokingfunatthereligion,right?Butit'snothostiletothereligionoritsmembers.Andthat'sactuallyagreatvictorybecauseifyouwouldhaveturnedbacktheclockahundredyearsagorighttotheearly…totheturnofthe20thcentury…Benavidez:…theMormonmenace…Mason:Exactly.Imeanmyfirstbookisonanti-Mormonisminthelate19thcentury.Peopledon'trealizethis,butMormonsweresortofPublicEnemyNo.1intheUnitedStates,especiallyinthe1880s.TheSupremeCourtruledagainstMormons.ThepresidentoftheUnitedStateswasissuingorderstryingtopreventMormonimmigrantsfromEurope.Congresspassedaseriesofanti-Mormonlegislation…thefederalCongress,whichatthehighpointofthatorthelowpoint,in1887theypassedverydraconianlawswhichseizedthechurch'sproperty.WejustsawasimilarthinghappenwithRussiaandJehovah'sWitnesses.AndineverypresidentialStateoftheUnionaddressinthe1880s,Mormonswereidentifiedasoneofthegreatestthreatstothenation.Andsoyoutakethatfromthe1880s,andwithinacoupleofgenerationsMormonsare

succeedinginbusiness,we'resucceedinginentertainmentandtheacademyandallthedifferentkindsofinstitutionsofAmericansociety,andthenin2012wegetMittRomney,youknow,whobecomestheGOPnomineeforthepresidency,almostwins…you'vegotMormonsonBroadway,right?Benavidez:Soyou'remainstream.Mason:They'vebeenmainstreamed,right.Andstillpeoplearealittleunsure.PollsshowthatMormonsremainoneofthelesspopularreligiousgroupswithinAmerica.Peoplearen'tquitesureaboutit.Youknowthekindsofquestionswe'vebeentalkingabout.ButstillMormonsarepartofthemainstream.Imeantheyjustliveinordinaryhousesanddriveordinarycarsandworkordinaryjobs.Andeverybodyrecognizesthey'regoodneighborsandgoodfamilypeopleandallthatkindofstuff.Suchahugetransitioninthespaceofjustafewgenerations.Imeanagainasahistorian,therapidityofthischange,ImeanhowfastMormonsgofrombeingabsolutepariahs,witheverybranchofthefederalgovernmentgoingafterthem,toalmostwinningthepresidency,youknow?That'sremarkable.Benavidez:Speakingofthat,whereyouknowthepresidentswererailingagainstMormonsandMormonimmigrants,etc.…nowspeakmoreasaprofessorofreligiousstudies,notjustMormonstudies.Whatwe'reseeingtodaywithIslam,andyouknowwehaveatravelbanagainst…whichhasbeenheldbackbythecourts…butbytoday’spresidentsayingwedon'twantpeoplefromthesesevenIslamiccountries.What'syourtakeonthat?Becauseitseemskindofsimilar.Mason:Itdoes,andIactuallywasjustpartofagroupofscholarsthatsignedanamicusbriefthatwillgotothecourtinHawaii,thefederalcourt,whichisrulingonPresidentTrump'sexecutiveorder,inwhichwelookedbackatMormonhistoryandwesayinthiscountrywehaveahistoryofthefederalgovernmentbanningpeoplefromthiscountry,basedonnothingmorethanreligiousaffiliation,right?Andthefearofwhattheywoulddoiftheycameintothiscountrytoundermineitsinstitutionsanddemocracyandallthesekindsofthings.AndsoweusedthetoolsofMormonhistorytosay,ofcourseit’snotexactlythesame,Imeanyoucanneverdrawanexactparallel,butjustforthecourtstoreflectonthisaspartofourhistory,wherewe'vegonedownthisroadbeforeinthiscountry.AndIdon'tthinkwewouldgobackandlookonthe1870sand1880sthewaythatthepresidentsyouknowtriedtobanMormonsfromthiscountry…Idon'tthinkanyofuswouldgobackandlookonthatfavorably,orlike,thatwasyouknow,ahighpointinAmericanhistory.Andsoasascholaragain,ImeanIgottogetherwithmanyofmyothercolleaguesandweparticipatedinwritingthisbrief,sayingaretheresomelessonsfromhistorythatitshouldatleastgiveuspausehereandmakeusthinkaboutcurrentpoliciestowardsotherreligiousminoritieswhowanttocomeintothiscountry.Benavidez:Thatwasastrongstatement,whereyouwoulddothat,becausethat,asyousaid,givespeoplepause.Mostpeopleprobablydidn'tknowthattherewerefolksinthe1880swhoweresayingthatMormonswerePublicEnemyNo.1.WehearittodayfromsomequartersinoursocietythatMuslimsarePublicEnemyNo.1.Soyou'rerightthatthereissomethinggoing

onthere.Andatabiggerlevelyouknow,justasanAmerican,howdoyouseereligiousfreedomhere?Imeanpeople…thisisexactlywhatyou'retalkingabout,obviouslypeopleweretryingtolimitMormons’religiousfreedomatthispointinhistory,somepeoplewhoaretryingtolimitotherreligionsfreedomnow…Canyoutalkalittlebitaboutwhyyoustudiedit.Mason:Yeah,it'sagreatquestionforme.ThisisoneofthereasonswhyIlovestudyingMormonismbecauseit'sagreatlaboratorytothinkaboutthesekindsofquestions.ImeanI'macitizen.Icareaboutthesekindsofthings.ImeanoneofthethingsIloveabouttheUnitedStatesisthatreligiousfreedomisbuiltintotheFirstAmendmentofourConstitution.It'softentimescalledthe“firstfreedom.”AndIthinkthatisavery,veryseriousthing.Ithinkoneofthegreatlegaciesofthefoundersisthattheycreatedanationbasedatleastintheoryonreligiouspluralism.Ittookusawhiletofigurethisout.AndinfactMormonswere…earlyMormonsweremoreoftenthannot,thevictimsofalotofthenation'sfailuretoliveuptoitsbestideals.Againalotofpeopledon'tknowthatMormonsin1838–soonlyeightyearsafterthechurch'sfounding–themajorityofMormonswerelivinginthestateofMissouri,tryingtocreatesettlementsthere,andtheymadesomeoverblownclaimsabout,Godgaveusthisland.Sotheycontributedtothis,butitresultedinaviolentconflictbetweenMormonsettlersandthenon-MormonsettlersinMissouri.It'scalledeithertheMormonWarortheMissouriWarinlate1838.Anditgottotheend,therewasamassacreofMormoncitizens.Womenwererapedchildrenwerekilled.Therewerepitchedbattlesbetweenthesemilitiamembers.ItgottothepointwhereattheendofOctober1838,thegovernorofthestateofMissouriissuedwhatwascalledtheexterminationorder….Benavidez:Extermination?Mason:ExterminationorderinwhichthisexecutiveorderfromthegovernorsaidthatMormonsmustleavethestateofMissouriorbeexterminated.Benavidez:SoundsalotlikeNaziGermanyorsomething.Mason:It'shorrible.asitisreallyoneofthelowpoints.Imeanofcourseitdoesn'tcomparetotheHolocaustintermsofthe….Benavidez:Tryingtoexterminateareligiousgroup…Mason:Targetingthisgroupforwhateverreasonsbut,right.AndsoMormonsareforcedtofleethestate.Benavidez:Sothat'showtheyendedupinUtah?Mason:SotheygotoIllinoisnext.AndthecitizensofIllinoisactuallywelcomedtheminasrefugees.It'sactuallythisgreatstory.It'sagreatstoryofAmericancompassionandmercyandrecognizingtheplightofthesevictimsofviolence.

Withinafewyears,thingsfallapart,right,andMormonswerepartofthis.Theymadesomegrandclaimsandtheywereconflatingreligionandpoliticsandsortofcreatingakindoftheocracyinthecitythattheycreated.Mormonsarenotinnocentinalotoftheseconflicts.ButattheendofthedaytheyrecognizethattheFirstAmendmentfailedtoprotectwhattheysawastheirreligiousfreedoms.Andsotheneventuallytheygot…JosephSmithiskilledinIllinois.SothefounderofthereligionisviolentlykilledbyamobinIllinoisin1844andthenMormonsareforcedoutofthecitythattheybuiltontheMississippiRiverandthat'swhentheygotoUtah.Theyleavein1847…atthetime.UtahwasnotpartoftheUnitedStates.ItwasMexicanterritory.TheywereleavingtheUnitedStates.Benavidez:1847…you'reright.Mason:It'snottill1848andtheMexican-AmericanWar,theTreatyofGuadalupeHidalgo,thatthatpartofthecountrybecomespartoftheUnitedStates.Andsothey'releavingtheUnitedStatesbecausetheyfeelliketheUnitedStateshasfailedtoliveuptoitspromisesintheFirstAmendmenttoguaranteereligiousfreedom.SoforMormons,Ithink,bothbelieversandscholarslikemyself,youknow,IlookbackonthatandIsaythisisanexamplefromAmericanhistorywherewedidn'tliveuptothat.Nowit'scomplicated.Dowewanttoprotecttherighttopolygamy?Imeanreligiousfreedomcasesarealwaystricky,especiallywhenwegetintopolitics,whenwegetintocertainpractices,butfundamentally,dowewanttopreservethisasthe“firstfreedom,”asthefoundersofthecountryenshrinedintheFirstAmendment.Benavidez:Sowhatyou'resayingwhenyoutalkaboutitasbeingalaboratory…therewerethesefailingsontheFirstAmendment,whichyoureferredtoasthe“firstfreedom,”andmanypeoplehaveaswell.Sosuddenlyyouhavethis.SohowdidtheMormons…whentheygettoUtah…ayearlaterafterthetreatyandafterthewarwithMexico,thatbecomespartoftheUnitedStates.Howdidtheythenbuildfromthere?Becausetheyobviouslyarethepower,youknow,inUtah,intermsofmanythings,notjustreligion,buteconomy,politics…Mason:Yeah,theywerethemainsettlers,andofcoursetherehadbeennativesettlersthereandthisispartofthetragictalewhichagainisnowcomingoutbecauseofhistoricalresearchincludingfromsomeofourstudentshereatCGU.WejusthadadoctoralstudentwriteaveryfinedissertationontheviolencetheMormonsusedtodisplacethenativepeoplesofUtah.Andsothere'sakindoftragictalethereaswell.ButMormonscameinandtheyweretheprimaryEuro-Americansettlersintheregion,andyou’reright,theybuilttheeconomy,theybuiltthesociety.Imeantherewereafewnon-Mormonswhokindofcamein,butitwasprimarilyaMormonsocietyinwhatbecameknownasUtah,andtheytriedtogetstatehoodoverandoverandoveragain.Butthisiswhentheywerepracticingpolygamy,andthisiswhenwegetintothisperiodofreallypronouncedfederalandnationalanti-Mormonism.

ButIthinkwehavetorecognizejustwhatatremendousachievementitwasforthemtosettlewhatisnowcalledtheGreatBasin.TosendsettlementsnotjustinUtah,butactuallySanBernardinohereinSouthernCaliforniawasfoundedbyMormonsettlersandtheywerethereintheSanFranciscoareabeforethegoldrush.AndtheysentpeopleupintoIdahoandintoWyomingandintoplacesinCanadaorevendownintoMexico.SoalotofthesettlementoftheAmericanWestMormonswereprimarycontributorsto.Benavidez:Youknowonethingthat'sinterestinghereistheword“violence.”YouknowwhenyoutalkaboutyourbookTheMormonMenace,soundslikethere'sbeenalotofviolencearoundreligiousbeliefs.Peoplesaying,Idon'tagreewithyou,wewantyouout,youknow,toissueanexterminationorderandthenkillthefounder,violentlykillhim.Andthesekindsofthings…sowhatisitaboutreligionthatthesearesuchdeeplyheldbeliefsthatitsometimesdoesengenderviolence?Mason:That'sabsolutelyright.Andthisis…therewasagreat20thcenturytheologiannamedPaulTillichwhotalkedaboutreligionastheultimateconcern.Imeanthethingthatyoucareaboutthemost,right?It'syourbelief.Becauseforalotofpeopleit'snotjustwhat'sgoingoninthislifebutit'sthenextlifetoo.Everythingisridingonthis,onhavingtherightbeliefsortherightpractices,andweseethisthroughouthistory,ofcourse–thisisoneofthetragicelements.Benavidez:Andaparadox.Mason:Exactlythat.OntheonehandmydissertationadviserbackatNotreDame,hisnameisScottAppleby,hewrotethisgreatbookcalledTheAmbivalenceoftheSacred,andwhathemeantbythatisthateveryreligioustradition,Idon'tcareifyou'retalkingaboutMormonismorBuddhismorHinduismoryouknowMethodism,thereareelementswithinthatthatcanprovideresourcesforviolence,ortherearecertainleaderswhowillstokethatup.Benavidez:IthinkoftheCrusades..Mason:Absolutely.Buttherearealsointhatexactsamereligion,ineveryreligion,therearealsoresourcesforpeaceandpeace-building,right?YouknowtoturntheothercheekandyouknowthattheGoldenRuleisfoundineveryreligion.Benavidez:Wellyousaidyouwanttogointopeacestudies.Mason:That'sexactlyright.AndoneofthebooksI'mworkingonrightnowisaMormontheology,anethicofpeacebuilding.Whatresourcesdowehaveinthisreligiontothinkaboutanonviolentapproachtosociety?Andsothishasalwaysbeenthestruggleofreligiousbelieversthroughouthistory,isthistension,theappealanddrawofviolencetoforcetheirbeliefsonothersandtheirpracticesonothers,butalsothecalltopeaceandtousereligion–andreligionhastremendouspowerandweseeitaroundtheworldtoday.WeoftentimesfocusonthereligiousviolencewithISISandwithothergroupslikethat,whichisterribleandit'sreal.Oneofthethings…Ijusttaughta

courselastsemesteronreligion,violenceandpeacebuilding,andIkepttellingmystudentstherearesometimespeoplewhowanttoexplainthisawayandsay,ohthat'snotreallyreligion.Itisreligion,right?Imeanthosepeoplewhoareperpetratingthatviolencearemotivatedbytheirunderstandingofreligion.Nowwecandisagreewiththatunderstanding,wecansayit'swrong,thattheyaredoingviolencetothesesacredtexts,buttheyaremotivatedbyreligion–that'sreal,right?Andwehavetodealwiththat.Andsothequestionishowdoweusereligioninallofitsvariousformstoworknotjustforpeacebutalsoforhumandevelopment,forpovertyalleviation,toprovidemedicalcare,youknow,tocreate…Imeanthecivilrightsmovementinthiscountrywasyouknow…themainplayersinthatwerereligiousfolks,whereDr.Kingwasareverend.Youknowhewasaminister.Andalotoftheotherleadersofthatmovementusedtheirreligiouscommitmentstoadvancethecauseofsocialjustice.Andhewasintononviolence.Benavidez:Onethingthat'sinterestinginlookingatwhereMormonismisat,iswhyit'sbecomingsopopularallovertheworld.Imeanitjustcan'tjustbethemissionaries–there'sgottobesomethingthat'sspeakingtopeopleintheseothercountriesandcontinents.Doyouhaveanysenseofwhatthatmightbe?Mason:Well,IthinkMormonsthemselves,fromkindofachurchperspective,theywouldsaythisistheHolySpiritworkingonpeople,thatis,thatpeoplefeelthepresenceofGod.Asahistorian,Ican'tdocumentwheretheHolySpiritisworkingorwhathe'sdoingonaTuesdayat3o'clock,right?SoasascholarIhavetocomeupwithotherexplanations.AndsoIthinkMormonismprovidesalotofthingsforpeople.Itisacoherentworldviewthatishealingtoalotofpeople.OneofthemainteachingsofMormonismisthatfamiliescanbetogetherandmarriagescanbetogether,notjusttilldeathdoyoupart,butforever,foreternity.AndalotofpeoplefindthattobeoneoftheveryattractivedoctrinesofMormonism,andMormonismisaveryfamily-centered.AndMormonismhasverystrongvalues,whatwewouldcalltraditionalorconservativevalues,butalotofpeopleareattractedtothatasawaytolivetheirlivesinwhattheyseeastimesthatareunsettlingandchanging,andthey'relookingforananchorintheirlives.YouknowalotofpeoplereadTheBookofMormonandjusthaveakindofverypowerfulspiritualexperienceandfeelthatthisisGodtalkingtothem.Benavidez:Andithasbeentranslatedintoall...Imeanhowmanylanguages.Mason:Nearly200languages.Andsoit'sbeensentliterallyallovertheworld.Infactstatisticallyit'soneofthemostthetopfivemostpublishedbooksintheEnglishlanguageinhistory.Benavidez:I'veheardthatbefore.Idon'tknowitwasthetopfive.Mason:ButyeahtheBibleofcourseisNo.1,andthenyouhavelikeLordoftheRingsandTheBoyScoutHandbook,andliterally,HarryPotter,thefirstvolumeofHarryPotter,andTheBookofMormonisrightupthere.I'mnotsayingthatmanypeoplehavereadit,butthechurchhasprintedthatmanycopiesanddistributedthem,andit'sprobablyfounditswayintoalotof

garbagecans.ButImeanitshowsthecommitmentthatthechurchhastogetthewordout.Totryandspreadthewordtopeopleallaroundtheworld.Benavidez:Wellaswe'recomingtoacloseofthepodcasttoday,Ijustwantedtoaskyou…Thisyearasyouknowwasthe500thanniversaryoftheReformation,whichwasabigdealin,ofcourse,Christianity,withLuther,etcetera.Andwhatisyourtakenow,500yearslater?Becausealotofthe…youknowit'sbeencelebratedallovertheChristianworld.Andwhat'syourtakeontheReformation,andisitstillrelevanttoday?Mason:Yeah.That'sagreatquestionyouknow.AlotofpeoplepointtotheReformationasreallythekindofbeginningsofmodernity.ImeanscholarsdebatethisallthetimewhenitbeganwiththeReformationortheFrenchRevolutionorwhat,butyoudoseetherewerethingsgoingoninsociety.Theprintingpress–againaninformationrevolutionwhichwe'vealreadytalkedabout,–thatledtothischangeofreligioussensibilitieswhichincludedtheReformation.AndIthinkwe'reexperiencingthatrightnowinglobalreligion.AgainIdon'tthinkwehaveevenbeguntograsptheimportanceandthepoweroftheInternetandsocialmediaandkindofthedigitalagethatwelivein.Itchangeseverything,ofcourse,weknowitchangesthewayweinteractwitheachother,itchangesourpolitics,itchangesoureconomy–ithaschangedthewaythatuniversitiesdotheirbusiness,right?Butitchangesreligiontoo,andeveryreligionhastodealwiththis.AndsoIdothinkintheearly21stcenturywe'reinanageofglobalreligiousreformation.It'snotjustaffectingjustChristianityorIslamorsomethinglikethat.ButIthinktheentireglobeisgoingthroughakindofculturalReformationwhichincludesreligion.We'retryingtograpplewithwhatisthenatureofhumansocietyinadigitalageandthatincludesourbeliefsaboutGod,thekindsofritualsandpracticesthatwehavethewaythatweaffiliatewithoneoranother.AndsoIdon'tknowwhattheendisgoingtolooklike–historiansmakeverypoorprophets.AndsoIdon'tknowwhatthefutureisgoingtohold,butIdoknowthatwe'reinaperiodoftremendouschange,thelikesofwhichhumansocietyhasactuallyveryrarelyseen.Benavidez:It'slikeamajortippingpoint.Andwhenyouweretalkingearlierabouttheaspectsofwhatareligionis,talking,youknow,specificallyaboutMormonism,peoplehavesaidthatwe'renowinthesecondmachineageorthefourthindustrialrevolution,ortheotherdayIreadthatsomebodysaidweashumanbeingscan'tevenfathomtheknowledgethatartificiallyintelligentrobotspossess.Andsothiscallsintoquestion,youknow,thenatureofreligion,becauseit'sabeliefsystem,andyetwehavealltheseotherthingslikeyou'retalkingaboutgoingon.Soyou'resayingwe'regoingthroughamassiveculturalreformationglobally–that'sabigstatement.Mason:Itisabigstatement.Andwe'rehavingtodealwiththingsandaskquestionsandcomeupwithanswersofthingsthatevenourparentscouldn'tevenimagine.Andsothequestioniswillweasaspeciesandasahumansociety,willwecreatethetoolsnecessarytodealwiththeproblemsinfrontofus?Ihopewecan.AndIthinkreligioncanbeabigpartofthesolution,not

justparticularreligions,buteveryreligioncanbepartofthesolution,butthey'realsogoingtobepartoftheproblemalongtheway.Andsoformethat'swhyit'safascinatingtimetobeascholarofreligion.YouknowmyownlittlecornerisMormonism,butI'mreallyinterestedinthesereligionsallaroundtheglobe,andhowaretheygoingtoaddresstheproblemsofhumansocietyandopportunitiesofhumansocietyinthe21stcentury.Benavidez:Well,onthatnote,Iwanttosay,thankyou,Patrick,forbeingonClaremontGraduateUniversity'spodcast,theCampfire.Thisisourfirstepisode.Iwanttothankyouforhelpinglaunchit.Andgoodluckwithallyourwork.Mason:Thankyou,Max.Benavidez:Patrick,ifpeoplewanttogetintouchwithyou,talkalittlebitwithyouaboutorlearnmoreaboutMormonism,Mormonstudies,what'sthebestwaytogetintouch?Mason:Sopeoplecane-mailmeatpatrick.mason@cgu.edu.IalsohaveaTwitterfeed@PatrickQMason.Benavidez:Great.Well,thankyou,Patrick.Mason:Great,thankyou.Benavidez:We'llprovidelinkstothecontactinformationonourshownotes.Onceagain,IwanttothankPatrickMasonforcomingontheCampfireandtalkingaboutMormonism,takingusthroughthehistory,andinsuchashortperiodgivingussuchafullpictureofthisAmericanreligion.