[Tuesday, 28th August. 1979) 20

Tuesday, the 28th August, 1979

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. Clive Griffiths)took the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers.

THE LATE LORD LOUIS MOUNTBATTEN

Condolence: MotionTHE HION. D. J. WORDSWORTH (South

-Minister for Lands) [4.32 p.m.]: I move,without notice-

That this Legislative Council views withhorror the circumstances which resulted inthe death of Lord Louis Mountbatten.

We express to the British people-andparticularly to The Royal Family andmembers of his immediate family-ourdeepest sympathy on their tragic loss.

We honour the memory of a truly greatleader, especially his role as Supreme AlliedCommander in South-East Asia during thesecond World War. In this, and through hismany other important tasks in times of peaceand war, he helped to shape the course ofhistory.

The British Commonwealth of Nations hasmuch to thank him for.

In moving this motion on behalf of the House Iwould like to say that one of the most remarkableabilities of Lord Louis Mountbatten was to makethose who worked with and under him feel thatthey had a very close association with him. This Issomething which every leader would wish to have,but, unfortunately, very few do. All around theworld today people will be claiming that they hadan intimate friendship with and appreciation ofLord Louis Mountbatten.

I do not wish to discuss in too great a detail hiswar efforts and how they directed the course ofthe British Empire or his very close associationwith the Royal Family. In his position as SupremeAllied Commander in South-East Asia, hisleadership was of great significance to Australia.This was at a time when Australia was at greatperil. He first set up his headquarters at MountLavinia in Ceylon; subsequently he was given thetitle of Lord Louis Mo 'untbatten of Burma. ManyAustralians knew and served under him duringthis very important time in Australian history,and when the Japanese were driven back hemoved his h'eadquarters to the Cathay Hotel inSingapore.

I perhaps was brought up under the colour ofLord Louis because my rather was the successorto Sir Charles Gairdner as Commander or theArmoured Corps in India at the time when LordLouis was Supreme Commander and Viceroy. Mymother was Lady Mountbatten's aide during thattime in India.

Lord Louis had the delicate task of forming thetwo countries of India and Pakistan andundoubtedly the Mounibattens' contribution tothe British Empire at that time was immense.Whilst there was a lot of bloodshed involved,partition was a very dirfficuit operation toperform, and his remarkable command andleadership helped in this most delicate task.

We should include in this condolence themembers of Lord Louis' family who were withhim at the time or his death, because they are wellknown to many in Western Australia. Hisdaughter, Lady Particia, and her husband, LordBrabourne, own properties at Esperance andBoyup Brook and were often seen in the south-west. They became involved with the people bothin the town and in agriculture when they spenttheir annual week's holiday. Perhaps it was not aholiday because they took farming very seriously;and really lived the part of Australian farmers.In fact I recall that they even carried thebathwater out for newly planted trees in theirgarden. I know the people of Esperance would liketo be associated with this motion of condolence.

For those who do not know Earl Mountbatten'sson-in-law (Lord Brabourne), I would say thatapart from handling the very considerable familyestate in England. he also is a film producer ofsome note. As well as making very finedocumentaries about Lord Louis Mountbatten hewas one of the first successfully to produceShakespeare on film with Romeo and Juliet. Healso featured the London Ballet CompanyPortraying Beatrix. Potter's characters on thescreen.

In addition, he filmed Agatha Christie's OrientExpress, which was another magnificentproduction.

While we very much regret that one of LordLouis' grandchildren died with him, we hope theremainder of the family, with whom we knowLo~rd Louis was so closely associated and of whomhe was so fond, will survive the very seriouswounds they received in the accident.

I hope the House will support this motion.THE HON. D. K. DANS (South

Metropolitan-Leader of the Opposition)[4.41 p.m.]: On behalf of the Opposition I supportthe remarks made by the Hion. David Wordsworth

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in moving the motion of condolence to the Britishpeople and the immediate family of Lord LouisMountbatten.

In my opinion, of all the commanders whoserved in the second World War, LordMountbatten would certainly have been the mostpopular, right from the days when he commandedthe destroyer Kelly, through his activities incombined operations, until he wis the SupremeAllied Commander in South-East Asia, and lateron when he completed the difficult task ofeffecting the changeover in India.

This is a great tragedy and we extend ourcondolences to the Mountbatten family. It is afamily which has put a great deal into the welfareand good order of our Commonwealth and hasmade a magnificent contribution to the English-speaking peoples of the world. The original familyname was Battenberg and Lord Louis' fathersuffered considerably at the hands of the mediabecause he had that name. He strove very hard toprove his point and he succeeded admirably.

We extend condolences not only to the familyof Lord Louis Mountbatten, but also to all thosepeople who surfer because of' the fruitless actionin Northern Ireland. Today 17 British soldiershave lost their lives in a bomb and gun attack.After thousands of years of civilisation, surely itmust come home to people that no problem can besolved by bloodshed. I do not think the peoplewho perpetrated this terrible crime, this dastardlyact, have advanced their cause one bit. Ifanything, they have retarded it.

The motion moved by the Hon. DavidWordsworth has our full support.

THE HON. V. J. FERRY (South-West)[4.44 p.m.): I support the motion. During WorldWar 11 I round myself serving in a number oftheatres of war, and towards the end I foundmyself in South-East Asia. I tan testify to thegreat esteem in which the military forces underLord Louis held their commander.

Lord Louis was a big man in every way. Hewas a very great man for the BritishCommonwealth of Nations, and, indeed, for theworld. Such men are rare and when they appearwe can compare with them others of their timeand through history. Lord Louis had a specialquality and great ability. He-had the capacity toget results and to be a man of the people. As Iunderstand it, he was never happier than when hewas mixing with people who were doing a job.

It was my fortune at the end of the last war tofind myself in Burma. and, although I had nopersonal contact with the great man, I knew ofhim from those with whom I associated. I never

dreamt I would be standing in this place tosupport such a condolence motion. I do so withgreat humility and sincerity. It is a great tragedyfor us all.

THE HON. H. W. GAYFER (Central)[4.45 p.m.]: I thought it had been agreed that thismessage of condolence would be moved by theGovernment and supported by the Opposition. Asother members have spoken tb it, I must rise tosay on behalf of the National Country Party thatwe, too, are extremely distressed about the newswe have read. We would like to be associated withthe remarks made by the Hon. David Wordsworthand the Hon. Des Dans.

THE HION. R. HETHIERINGTON (EastMetropolitan) [4.46 p.m.]: I would briefly like toadd a tribute to Lord Louis Mountbatten, whowas one of the great inspirational leaders duringWorld War 11. One of his greatnesses was that hecombined his ability as a war-time commanderwith great ability as a politician. We hear a lotabout his role during the war, but I think weshould remember his role as the last Viceroy andfirst Governor General of India. With greatdelicacy and care he managed to steer the twogreat republics of India and Pakistan intoindependence. I think we owe him a great tributefor what he did there as well as for all he didduring the war.

Lord Louis was therefore one of those toweringfigures and, because he did so much in war and inpeace which has benefited the world, I think it isa great tragedy that the perpetrators of this crimesaw fit to use him as an example to serve theirends.

The PRESIDENT: Honourable members, asan indication of your support of this motion I askyou to rise in your places for one minute.

Question passed, members standing.

QUESTIONS

Questions were taken at this stage.

BILLS (2): INTRODUCTION ANDFIRST READING

I.Metropolitan Region Town PlanningScheme Act Amendment Bill.

Bill introduced, on motion by the Hon.F. E. McKenzie, and read a first time.

2. Bush Fires Act Amendment Bill.Bill introduced, on motion by the Hon.

D. J. Wordsworth (Minister forLands), and read a first time.

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[Tuesday. 28th August, 19791 20

BILLS (2): THIRD READING1. Trade Descriptions and False

Advertisements Act Amendment Bill.Bill read a third time, on motion by the

Hon. 1. G. Medcalf (AttorneyGeneral), and passed.

2. Health Education Council ActAmendment Bill.

Bill read a third time, on motion by theHon. D. J1. Wordsworth (Minister forLands), and passed.

MARGARINE ACT AMENDMENTBILL

Second ReadingDebate resumed from the 23rd August.THE HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central)

15.03 p.m.]: As one of the people who, for some15 years. was known as a "cow cocky", I did notthink I would see the day when I would bestanding in this House speaking on a Bill of thisnature.

There was a time when there was no dairyindustry organisation which dealt with themarketing of butter. That was when farmers wereat the mercy of the butter factories and thedistributors. The industry has come a long waysince then. The butterfat industry, as we call it,has seen mostly "downs" during that time. Threbutterfat industry was never really a Veryremunerative business. In fact, it was a peasant'sbusiness for many years. Even those people in theindustry who had high production had to strugglefor many years before they developed viablefarming units.

I am a little like M~r Dans. I have oftenwondered what the word "polyunsaturated"means. Does it have a meaning at all, or is it aword which is used for commercial purposes? Asone searches through the dictionary, one can Aindthe word "poly". but not the word.'polyunsaturated". I believe it is a word whichhas been used by advertisers to get rid of theproduct. I believe it is a trick played on thepublic.

I have always believed that butter was betterthan margarine. People like Mr Williams. ofcourse, believe that in their cases-and quiterightly so-they are better off if they keep awayfrom fats. However, I do not think that themajority of Australians are greatly affected jPyusing butter if they do proper exercise. If peoplewalked instead of riding in motorcars everywherethey go, they would suffer not the slightest effectfrom eating butter.

I do not think the fact that butter does notspread as well as margarine is important inconnection with the use of butter. I like the tasteof butter, and I do not like the taste of margarine.One can be reasonably certain that theconsumption of butter will have no ill-effect if areasonable amount of exercise is done.

The Hon. H. W. Gayfer: What exercise do youdo?

The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: 1 do quite a lot ofexercise. I go up to my property sometimes twicea week, but at least once a week, and I do a hardday's work there. I do quite a bit of walkingaround my property, so I do the full share ofexercise for a man of my age. I am sure that Iprobably do more exercise than the majority ofpeople who drive around in motorcars. If peoplewant to go to the corner shop they use the car,even to buy a packet of cigarettes or the paper. Iwould be inclined to walk if it were only a shortdistance. As a matter of fact, I walked down tothe bottom of Howard Street and back fromParliament House yesterday. I could have gone ina taxi or a bus, but I preferred to walk.

The Hon. D. K. Dans: Did you walk back?The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: Returning to the

subject matter, I hope that the proposed dairyblend will result in an increased use of butter. Iam not very optimistic that it will do so. Peoplehave become attuned to walking throughsupermarkets and buying table margarine-theso-called polyunsaturated stuff-because it ischeaper than butter. A big factor in relation tothe sale of butter is the higher price involved in itsproduction.

I can remember the time in 1933 when farmersreceived 8d. a lb. for butterfat. The cost ofproduction to a dairy farmer who had a reallytop-class herd was then I d, per pound. Personslike myself who had been in the game for onlyabout two years lost more than 3d. a lb. forbutterfat in those days.

With those words, I Support the measure.THE HON. D. J. WORDSWORTH (South

-Minister for Lands) (5.08 p.m.J: I thankmembers for their support of the legislation.Undoubtedly we have had a very interesting andwide-ranging debate on the subject. It is good tosee the interest which has been created by thislegislation. I am sure t 'hat it would give joy to thedairy producers in this State.

We have considered the respective health risksof margarine and butter. Indeed, we have debatedthe subject of butter making better lovers. Itwould appear to me-

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The Hon. D. K. Dans: What is your view onthat? Do you have an answer?

The Hon. D. J, WORDSWORTH: It appearsit is not so much the butter which causes thetrouble, but what it leads one to do that causesthe heart attacks! However, it is good to see that,in respect of the use of butter, members all seemto be fairly hearty and strong. Perhaps as theybecome older they might move into the use ofdairy blend, which might make a difference tothem.

With due seriousness, I think when oneconsiders the subject one finds there does notseem to be any cause-and-effect relationshipbetween butter and heart attacks. This is fairlyimportant. Perhaps there has been promotion ofthe relationship of butter and heart disease, and acertain amount of evidence has been presented;but in actual fact there is no conclusive evidenceto tie the two.

Undoubtedly heart disease is associated withvarious lifestyles. These include, of course, stress,whether one is overweight, high blood pressure,lack of exercise, and smoking. It must beadmitted that high blood cholesterol could beaffected by diet, but it is more likely to beaffected by some of the causes on the list I gave.

The Hon. D. K. Dans: Diet can bring thecholesterol level down, but there is not a greatdeal of evidence to show what sends it up.

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: Membershave asked what is meant by "polyunsaturated".It is said that the word is not found in thedictionary. 1 have managed to obtain a definitionfor members. I am informed that fats are madeup of "building blocks" or Catty acids whichconsist of a combination of carbon, hydrogen, andoxygen atoms. Most fatty acids have from eight to24 carbon atoms, each of which can combine withfour hydrogen atoms or their equivalent. When alcarbon atoms have their full complement ofhydrogen or equivalent atoms, the fatty acid issaid to be "saturated". If there is one hydrogenatom short of a full complement, it is referred toas "mono-unsaturated". If there are two or moreatoms short, it is known as "polyunsaturated".

The Hon. D. K. Dans: Very intereiting. It willbe difficult going out to dinner, trying to keep allthat in your mind.

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: Most foodscontain all three types of fatty acids; and it is thebalance between the three which determineswhether the food is referred to as"polyunsaturated" or "saturated". I hope that Ihave not confused members too much with thatdefinition.

Members have mentioned the durability ofmargarine. It appears that there is a chemicalantioxidant in margarine which enables'it to bekept for longer periods.

A great deal of criticism has been made aboutthe use of dairy products in the diet. I am assuredthat dairy products are and will remain animportant part of a healthy diet.

The Hon. D. K. Dans: Balanced diet-veryessential.

The H-on. D. J. WORDSWORTH: Right frombirth.

The Hon. D. K. Dans: From the womb to thetomb, do you reckon?

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: Membershave asked what is dairy blend, as there is nodefinition in the Bill before the House. Dairyblend has been determined by regulation. I aminformed that a dairy blend can have between 12and 20 per cent of vegetable oil in it. In otherwords, it contains 70 to 80 per cent of butterfat.The dairy blend may be used for cooking, in thesame way as other dairy products; in other words,the same as butter.

I think it was Mr Williams who asked why itwas necessary to have a square container. I amtold by those who are interested in themanufacture of margarine that it is adisadvantage to put it in the square containerbecause such containers cost more to produce orto buy. However, it must be argued at the sametime that there is an advantage in the squarecontainer because it occupies 20 per cent lessspace in the refrigerator.

The Dill allows for the future marketing ofmargarine in packs larger than 500 grams. It isnot intended that larger packs will- be introducedat this stage. However, when it is thought thatthere is a need to sell margarine in packs up toone kilogram in weight, the Minister can sodetermine -without having to bring another Billbefore the Parliament.

Mr Thompson raised the matter of Filled milk. Iunderstand that filled milk as such has not anygreat keeping qualities. It is a reconstituted milkwhich has had added some vegetable oils andsome dried milk.

UHT milk keeps for long periods of timewithout being refrigerated. It is whole milk whichhas been pasteurised in a particular manner. I amled to believe that filled milk as such does nothave very great keeping qualities.

The Hon. R. Thompson: It was the onlyproduct which would keep without refrigeration inthe early 1960s.

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[Tuesday, 29th August, 19793 20

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: Certainlythere is less necessity for tilled milk today. UHTmilk is used extensively in the north-west;therefore, filled milk is not required. it is a pitythat we do not have a manufacturer of UHT milkhere; but the process involved is very expensiveand there is probably a place tar two companiesonly in Australia. One company operates inQueensland and the other in Tasmania. We donot use enough UHT milk in this State to warrantthe setting up of a plant here.

Members have raised the point that thislegislation should be repealed, because it does notperform a useful function. The Governmentbelieves the legislation is of benefit to dairyproducers in particular and to the public ingeneral, because the advertising of dairy productscan be controlled. There is the ability within thelegislation to control the amount of margarinemarketed. In 1973 it was estimated thatapproximately 3000 tons was marketed. Iunderstand the present legislation allows up to5 000 tonnes to be marketed. However, I believeonly 3 000 tonnes is being produced per year atthe present time.

The Hon. Neil McNeill: The figure of 1 400tons was the amount laid down in 1972.

The Hon. D). i. WORDSWORTH: The currentregulations allow 5 000 tonnes to be produced, butless than 3 000 tonnes was actually manufacturedin Western Australia last year.

It was suggested also that dairy blend may notbe of great benefit to dairy farmers in WesternAustralia, because we do not have very manybutterfat producers as such. I believe the Hon.Neil McNeill quoted a figure of approximately 40butterfat producers who do not produce anywhole milk-, but probably most of the 600 dairyfarmers we have in Western Australia producemanufacturing milk in varying quantities andsome of that would be used for butter production.

The Hon. Neil McNeill: I said there are onlyabout 40 farmers remaining registered andlicensed as manufacturing milk producers.

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: That iswhat I am saying. Most of the other farmerswould be producing milk, but it is not all sold aswhole milk. They would be involved in a portionof butterfat production.

Whilst we might consume more butter than weproduce in Western Australia, it should beremembered that the price is determinedthroughout the whole of Australia. Therefore, it isimportant from the point of view of production ofdairy products that as much dairy produce as ispossible is sold. We should not say, "We produce

less butter than we consume, therefore, we shouldnot worry about this legislation."

The Hon. Neil McNeill: I did not say that.The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: It is in the

interests of all that as much butter as is possible issold throughout the whole of Australia.

The labelling of dairy products was discussedalso. Section 32A has been deleted, but theremaining part of the section will prevent thelabelling or advertising of margarine as if it werea dairy product. Margarine contains no butterfatand is not a dairy product.

I hope I have satisfied members with myanswers to the various points raised. I may nothave covered all the points raised by the Hon.Neil McNeill; but I hope I have answered most ofthe questions asked.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

In CommitteeThe Deputy Chairman of Committees (the

Hon. D. W. Cooley) in the Chair; the Hon. D. J.Wordsworth (Minister for Lands) in charge of theBill.

Clauses I and 2 put and passed.Clause 3: Section 6 amended-The Hon. R. THOMPSON: When I was

speaking in the second reading debate I askedwhy the Margarine Act, 1940-1973, should beretained and what its purpose was. The Ministerhas said the real purpose of the Bill is to prop upor protect the dairy industry. If we have a freeenterprise Government which believes peopleshould have a choice, it should recognise thatpeople are now being denied a choice and this hasbeen the case since the introduction of theMargarine Act.

In the second reading debate I referred to asolidified oil used for cooking which is marketedin this State. People buy it in the belief that it is avegetable oil and does not contain animal fat. Infact, I believe it contains approximately 65 percent animal fat. People buy this product becausethey are health conscious and want to cut downon the amount of animal Fats they absorb.However, they believe this product to bepolyunsaturated.

There is only one product on the market whichis polyunsaturated solidified oil. It is made inNew South Wales and marketed in this State, butit is not always readily available.

Recently I read in the Press that a factorywould be set up in Buribury. This factory wouldrequire oil seeds to be grown here and it could be

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of benefit to Western Australia. This venture willbe to the benefit of all the people of the Stat.. Itis possible the factory will manufacture dairyspread also. In order to encourage people whomake their living by growing oil seed crops, andother people involved in the venture, we shouldremove all the restrictions contained in the Act sothat this company and other companiesthroughout Australia can market the productwhich people want. People cannot buy solidifiedoil at a reasonable price, and it is in very shortsupply. Of course, liquid oil is very expensive andpeople are being denied the right to choose theproducts they want.

I would like to ask the Minister why it isnecessary to have a Margarine Act. Is the dairyindustry in such a state that it cannot stand on itsown feet? It has been subsidised, heavily (or manyyears and it will continue to he 'subsidised. Ofcourse, some or the whole-milk producers do notneed a subsidy, because they are sitting on littlegoldmines.

The Act should be repealed. The Minister hasnot researched the subject adequately and he hasnot produced sufficient evidence to justify theexistence of such a restrictive Act on the Statutebook.

The Hon. NEIL McNEILL: I had not intendedto speak during the Committee stage, even thoughI considered the Minister's reply to the secondreading debate to be very inadequate. However, Irise on a point made by the Hon. Ron Thompson.I am afraid I have been provoked by him, becausehe made the statement that the dairy industry isin receipt of very heavy subsidies, or words to thateffect.

The Hon. R. Thompson: It has been subsidisedfor years.

The Hon. NElL McNEILL: I wonder whetherthe honourable member can tell me the amount ofsubsidy made available to the dairy industry. 1doubt that he could. I could not give him theprecise Figure; but it is not a heavy subsidy. Thegreatest subsidy ever made available to the entiredairy industry was the sum of $50 million manyyears ago. The dairy industry is not now in receiptof anything like that sort of financial assistance.

The Hon. Ron Thompson took issue with theMinister's comment that the purpose of the Bill isto protect the dairy industry. I may not be usingthe precise words of the member, but that is thegist of what he said.

The H-on. R. Thompson: He said it was for thebenefit of the dairy industry.

The Hon. NEIL McNEILL: I would like torestate the general proposition. Interests within

the dairy industry or butter-producing industry,whichever is responsible, have recognised butter isat a disadvantage in the market place, because ofits lack of spreadability when refrigeratedcompared with the only other competitive productwhich is margarine. As a result, the back-roomboys have set to work and have discovered that,by including a certain proportion of a vegetableoil product in butter, they can increase thespreadability of butter under refrigeratedconditions. This makes the product morecompetitive with margarine.

In my view the purpose of the Bill is notnecessarily to benefit the dairying industry. Thepurpose of the Bill simply is to tidy up thedefinition of "margarine", and to allow for theuse of the term "dairy blend". A far more validreason for this Bill is that those people who buydairy blend will know that it is not a vegetable oilproduct. If a person wants to purchase aconsumer product, without an animal fat content,he should not buy dairy blend.

The Bill will also provide that the term "dairyblend" will be acceptable. The purpose of the Billis not necessarily to benefit the dairying industry.The production of a more spreadable type ofbutter may well be to the advantage of theindustry.

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: 1endeavoured to say that it would be of benefit tothe dairying industry to ensure that margarine,and other butter-like products, will not beadvertised as "butter". I believe the Bill is ofbenefit to the dairying industry and also to theconsumers. If it achieves only that small benefit.it is worth while. I agree with those members whoexpressed the opinion that people have somedifficulty in understanding which products arepolyunsaturated. Until recently I was not awarethat if one wants to buy the safest of themargarine products one has to purchasepolyunsaturated table margarine because it ismade from unsaturated vegetable oils. I am led tobelieve that ordinary table margarine, althoughmade out of vegetable oils, does not necessarilyhave to be unsaturated.. The vegetable oils can besaturated, the same as in lard and other animalproducts.

This legisl ation will1 be of benef it not on ly to t hedairying industry, but also to the consumers.

Clause put and passed.Clauses 4 and 5 put and passed.Title put and passed.

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[Tuesday, 28th August. 1979] 20

ReportBill reported, without amendment, and the

report adopted.

IRON ORE (HAMERSLEV RANGE)AGREEMENT ACT AMENDMENT DILL

Second ReadingDebate resumed from the 23rd August.THE HON. J. C. TOZER (North) [5.35 p,.m.]:.

I rise to support the Bill. To date there has beenlittle debate on it, either in the other place or inthis Chamber last Thursday. As a matter of fact,it almost passed through the Legislative Assemblywithout anyone noticing it.

Despite that fact, this is a most important andinteresting Bill. It brings to light some far-reaching principles related to our great iron oreindustry in the Pilbara. To my mind, the measureintroduces four main issues.

Firstly, there are the basics upon which the ironore agreements were founded, and I believe in thiswe see a remarkable illustration of the way "opengovernment" should work. Secondly, there is thequestion of roads and, more particularly, those inthe Pilbara. This is a matter of great significanceto me and about which I have spoken on manyoccasions in this Chamber.

The third main point is the contribution whichthe iron ore industry is making to this State, andto this nation. Fourthly, for the first time we havein this Bill a new concept of the payment ofrentals for mineral leases. Those are the fourpoints I want to discuss.

As all members are aware, iron ore agreementswere entered into with all the principal iron orecompanies which came to the Pilbara, or WesternAustralia, in the 1960s. At that time theagreements were quite inspiring in concept and, inaddition, they set the scene for what is, in fact,truly "open government" in this State.

On many occasions the Premier's inspirationalleadership, in the development of the Pilbara, hasbeen questioned. In the early 1960s-thc timeabout which I am speaking-the present Premierwas Minister for the North-West and Minister forIndustrial Development. He was responsible forthe completion of the iron ore agreements. Hisremarkable foresight at that time is wellillustrated in the agreements themselves, and theamending Bills we have been required to considerin this place from time to time.

I do not want to canvass the full contents of theT-amersley agreement, which is typical of thosewhich apply to all other companies. Basically, itprovides for the export of iron ore, then the

Processing of iron ore, and ultimately themanufacture of a metal product, in progressivestages.

The agreement which we will amend tonightlays down the guidelines which will be followed bythe iron ore operations and the State Government,with regard to all actions, present and future,concerning the iron ore industry. Every alterationto the agreements must be embraced inamendments which must be presented to thisParliament and debated. Every amendment to anagreement has to be ratified by ibis Parliament.

In 1968 the members of this Chamberdiscussed the tenure of mineral leases. Inparticular, those discussions set the scene for thesecond part of the Hamersley company's miningactivities, at Paraburdoo. In 1972 there was thehiving off of certain tenements when the nexuswith l-anwright was severed.

In 1976 an amendment to the agreementprovided for altered obligations on the part of thecompany, thus opening the door for thebeneficiation plant. That plant was comnpletedrecently. The amendment altered thecommitments of the company in respect of theprocessing of iron ore, and it immediately broughtinto train the expenditure of something like $370million, which included infrastructureexpenditure.

Each amendment to the original agreementmust come to this Chamber, be discussed anddebated, and approved by this Parliament. To methis is an excellent example of "open government"in practice.

In his introductory speech the AttorneyGeneral spelt out the purpose of the Bill. Heexplained that a sum of $4.5 million will be raisedin rent prepayments. Thai is for the first part of afive-year, $24 million road-building programme.The roads concerned include the Tom Price-Paraburdoc Road, which is to be constructed andscaled at a cost of over $7 million. It will becompleted by the end of next year. TheNantitarra-Tom Price Road will be improved andupgraded as far as the Paraburdoo turn-off. Asum of $10.6 million will be spent over the nextfive years, and the upgrading will include thebituminising of 70 kilomnetres.

The Attorney General also mentioned that theRocklea-Paraburdoo Road will be improved at acost of $2 million1 and this will include a largebridge over the Hardey River. And lastly, a sumof $4 million will be spent on a connecting road tothe national highway. This road will beconstructed and sealed.

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The purpose of the Bill is to enable the State toreceive prepayment of rentals to the tune of $4.5million. That sum of money will enable the Stateto get on with the job of building the roadsimmediately; we will not have to wait for theavailability of State funds in order to commencethe work.

On many occasions in this Chamber I havespoken on the subject of the Pilbara roads.Particularly, I had a great deal to say onWednesday, the 12th April, 1978, when speakingduring the Address-in-Reply debate. Mycomments appear at page 642 of Hansard, 1978and I particularly spoke about the importance ofthe Pilbara, which is the area dealt with in thisBill. During my speech in 1978 1 described how ahandful of people-less than 50 000-wereworking in the area. I also mentioned that one-third of one per cent of the Australian populationwas earning something like 10 per cent ofAustralia's export income.

I said that royalties in excess of $50 million peryear are paid by the iron producers to theConsolidated Revenue Fund. I pointed out to themembers representing rural electorates that TomPrice and Paraburdoo-the towns to be servicedby the money raised through this legislation-hada population comparable with the population ofthe towns of Northam and York. I wondered howmembers in this House who represent the townsof Northam and York would feel if theircommunities were 250 kilometres from thenearest bitumen road. Of course, in theintervening time the population of Tom Price andParaburdoo has grown.

Something like $3 500 million capitalinvestment has been made in the Pilbara. but Ihave to remind members that the benefit of thatcolossal expenditure is not felt in the Pilbara; itbenefits the foundries and fabrication shops inPerth, Melbourne, and the other capital cities ofAustralia.

I would like to quote from page 642 of the 1978Hansard where I am reported as follows-

I believe Western Australia has to achieverecognition of the enormity of the Pilbara'scontribution to the national economy and thestandard of living throughout Australia. Ibelieve this significance should be reflectedin the assessment of the road needs in thePilbara, and in the north of WesternAustralia.

I do not need to point out that roads are probablythe most important component of theinfrastructure of any community, and thatcertainly applies in our region in the Pilbara. The

value of these roads can be measured only by theexports which go through the coastal ports ofDampier, Cape Lambert, and Port Hedland, andwhich are valued somewhere in the order of$1 000 million a year.

A colossal job has been accomplished on roadsin the last 10 to 12 years. The North-WestCoastal Highway was constructed at a cost of $31million at 1967 to 1974 values. The Meekatharra-Newman Road was finished in 1977, and this cost$23 million. The Port Hedland-Broome Road willcost about $40 million, and it will be black-toppedby the end of next year. On this road alone theexpenditure will be about $17 million ofCommonwealth and State road funds thisfinancial year. In addition to these funds, therehas been the enormous expenditure on thenational highway in the Kimberley whichfollowed on from the old beef road scheme. Onroads we have witnessed a rate of expenditure of amagnitude quite upheard of in Western Australiaup to the present era, and it is almost with ahushed voice that I must say in this Chamber thata third of the road funds available fromCommonwealth and State sources is being spentin the north of Western Australia in a regionwhere approximately 41h per cent of thepopulation of the State lives. I make no apologyfor this apparent disparity in expenditure, and Ido not think the State makes any apology. This isgood government, and I wish the Commonwealthcould learn a lesson from what the State is doing.

My speech last year was based largely on anaddress given by the Commissioner of MainRoads (Mr Don Aitken). I quoted him on thatoccasion, and I concluded my comments on roadswith this statement, which is very relevant to theBill we are now discussing-

It is interesting to note that thecommissioner used the term "Governments"rather than just "Government". Clearly theState Government is rather hamstrung,because of the lack of availability of funds. Ihope the Minister for Transport will makeevery endeavour to see that theCommonwealth Government recognises theessential need; but in addition I hope he asthe Minister will see that State policies alsorecognise this great disability under whichthis very important and large component ofour community in Western Australia exists.

Following a very helpful interjection by MrWordsworth, I went on to say-

...what I am saying to the Minister isthat the sequential development policy ofestablished priorities certainly is desirable,

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but positive action to implement the policycannot be delayed.

Within the capacity of the StateGovernment-Mr Wordsworth's Government-these priorities have been established.They have been clearly spelt out and positiveaction has been taken. I believe this isexemplified in the Dill before us this afternoon.

I applaud the State Government;, I applaud theway it is tackling this real task with vigour, withimagination, and with flexibility in planning. Nodoubt the $24 million programme described to uson this occasion will not remove all the problems,but it is a good start.

The $4.5 million advanced by Hamerstey IronPty, Ltd. in the first two years is of greatsignificance because it will enable a start to bemade on this excellent programme; it will giveimpetus in the early stages of the programmewhich we see unfolding.

Just the sealing of the road betweenParaburdoo and Tom Price next year will increasethe movement of people between these twoimportant towns. It will provide the socialintercourse which is so essential for, their well-being.

The roads between Paraburdoo and Rockleaand Rocklca and Nanutarra will not be sealed forthe full length, but a road will be provided whichwill stand up to all weather conditions for allpractical purposes. This will provide access to theNorth-West Coastal Highway and thus to thesouthern part of the State. In addition to that, itwill give access to other towns on the coast suchas Onslow. These towns are very important forthe recreational needs of the residents of thePilbara, and Hamersley Iron recognises this need.The company has subsidised the West PilbaraShire Council for the erection of about tO or 12chalets at Onslow. Of course, these chalets will beavailable for all citizens, but they are availableparticularly for the people who work at theHamersley Iron sites at Tom Price andParabur doo.

The last part of the road programme outlinedby the Attorney General when introducing theBill was the link with the national highway. Thereis no chance that this will end nowhere, and so atthe end of the five-year programme, I firmlybelieve that part of the Newman-Whim CreekRoad will be carried on to link with this road.

By the end of 1980 the Broome Road will besealed, and, of course, work is to be done on theHalls Creek-Fitzroy Crossing part of the nationalhighway, but there is no doubt at all in my mindthat the Newman-Whim Creek Road will proceed

concurrently and that the national highway willbe carried northwards to join up with the workoutlined to us in the programme which will be setin motion by this legislation. When thisconnection is made, it will provide the shortestroute for the people of Tom Price and Paraburdooto travel south to the city of Perth. It will besealed for its full length, and a greatbreakthrough will have been made.

Automatically, the resuli t will be that thepressure will be eased on the Nanutarra Road.The heavy transport will no longer go by way ofN-anutarra; the road hauliers will choose theshortest and fastest route by way of Newman andMeekatharra and then down to Perth. As timegoes by, the road will be carried further north andit will join the North-West Coastal Highway inthe vicinity of Whim Creek. TPhis will give thepeople of Tom Price and Paraburdoo direct accessnorthwards to the coast; it will be aboutequidistant from these towns to both PortHedland and Karratha.

I cannot overemphasise the importance of theroad works which we will be able to commencewith the passage of the Bill. The measure is notonly important economically. and commercially;but it is also equally important socially and,sociologically. The benefits which will accrue tothe communities involved are of greatsignificance. The road will enable free socialintercourse between towns and I am referring tothe towns on the coast as well as the inland towns.Members of sporting and recreational bodies willbe able to travel between those towns freely forcompetition. People will be able to enjoyeducational and cultural pursuits, or just simplefamily outings. The road will facilitate holidayson the coast, or perhaps just shopping sprees forfamilies.

People do travel these distances now, but overthe present rough roads it is quite an ordealwhether as a family travelling in a car, or afootball team or any other group travelling in abus. The people will no longer be "locked in" inthese inland towns such as Paraburdoo, Newman,Tom Price, PacksaddlIe, Rhodes Ridge, etc. Thesealed road linking Paraburdoo and Tom Price tooutside destinations will be a colossal step forwardfor the stability of these inland communities. It ispossibly as important as any other single factor inhelping to settle our disturbed industrial relationsscene in this region.

In commencing my speech tonight 1 spoke ofthe interesting implications of the Bill. Royaltiespaid by the iron ore producers go into theConsolidated Revenue Fund. Contrary to generalopinion, there is a built-in escalation in the

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payment of royalties. In point or fact, royaltiesare not paid on the tonnage produced, but on thef.o.b. value of the iron ore as it crosses the wharf.This means that every increase in price isreflected automatically in the amount of royaltiespaid by the iron ore producers.

It is a basic tenet of our Government policy-infact of the policy of most Governments whichfollow the Westminster system-that the mineralsof a country belong to the Crown; they are theproperty of the people. Therefore, it can be saidthat the iron ore producers are paying $50 milliona year for the right to exploit our property, ourminerals.

Sitting suspended from 6.00 to 730 p.m.The Hon. J. C. TOZER: Before the suspension

I was referring to the fact that our Governmentholds to the basic tenet that minerals belong tothe Crown and, therefore, it is justified inexacting royalties. In other words, the iron oreoperators are paying the G 'overnment $50 millionper annum for the right to exploit our minerals.For this reason these royalties are paid into theConsolidated Revenue Fund.

The Hon..G. W. Berry: How much?The Hon. J. C. TOZER: The total royalties

paid by the Pilbara iron ore producers is in theorder of $50 million per annum.

Ever since I have been here-and before thattime-I have personally advocated that aproportion of this sum be siphoned-bff from theConsolidated Revenue Fund and spent on roads orsome comparable essential need in the region. Ifelt that the iron ore in the Pilbara produced awindfall to the State and it was not unreasonableto see the royalties from part of it being spent onessential services for the area. In the past myadvocacy has never been successful.

But this Bill provides for increased rental asopposed to royalties and this is calculated on thebasis of 25c per tonne on all iron ore on whichroyalties are paid. Clause 9(1 )(b) of theagreement in the parent Act reads as follows-

...the Company will in addition to therentals already referred to in this paragraphpay to the State during the currency of thisAgreement after such anniversary asaforesaid a rental..

.. equal to two shillings and sixpence (2s.6d.) per ton on all iron ore or (as the casemay be) all iron ore concentrates in respectof which royalty is payable ...

The anniversary, as the Attorney General told uswhen introducing the Bill, is the 15th.

Now we find that this rental is to be applied tolocal roadworks, albeit it is only by way ofadvance; it is prepayment of the rentals which thecompany would be paying, in due course, after the15th anniversary in 1981. It would seenm that thisBill has broken new ground. Perhaps, in theparlance which people like to use in government,it has created a precedent.

It is not included in this Bill and it was notmentioned by the Attorney General, but it is myunderstanding that this $24 million-programmehas been arranged so that $12 million will comefrom normal road funding from Commionwealthand State sources, but that dollar for dollar willbe paid from a source that is not normal roadfunds. In other words, it is coming from theTreasury; it is part of this rental which will go toroad funds-$12 million over a ive-yearperiod-by way of the Treasury. Clearly, the first$4.5 million referred to in this Bill is coming fromthat source. It seems abundantly clear that this isthe basis upon which the Treasury has reachedthis agreement, after negotiation between theHamersley Iron company, the Minister forIndustrial Development, who has responsibilityfor the administration of the iron ore agreementActs, and the Main Roads Department.

It is my fervent hope that this is the pattern forwhat we will see in the future. I can only hopethat this concept will grow in scope as time goesby. I believe this additional reservoir of funds isjust the sort of money we need to make a realencroachment on the problems we have in front ofus with roadworks in this regi on.

As I mentioned, this rental is based on 25c perton of actual production. As I see it. theHamersley Iron company has an installedcapacity now to produce 47 million tonnes a year.By the way, even with the recent 10-weekstoppage the company will exceed 30 milliontonnes production of iron ore this year.

This installed capacity to produce 47 milliontonnes per annum will produce almost $12 millionper annum additional rental in a few years whenthe I 5th anniversary has been passed. That figureis not peanuts.

I spoke previously of the remarkable foresightwhich was shown in the drawing-up of theseagreements in the early 1960s. Perhaps in thosedays we did not envisage the growth of tonnage tothis great amount, but my goodness, what atremendous bonus for the State we are receivingby the placement of this clause in the agreementin the original Act.

Currently the rental paid for the mineral leasesto the Mines Department under the agreement

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[Tuesday, 28th August, 1979) 21

Act is $66 891.65-that was last year's figure.The calculated rental for these leases was$67 000, but because we have the potentialproduction of 47 miliiion tonnes a year we are nowlooking at an additional rental income of almost$12 million a year.

I think we must keep in mind-I did not see itmentioned in the Attorney General's introductoryspeech-that this situation applies after 15 yearsof production. In other words, it will be 1981 forTom Price, but in fact it will be 1985 forParaburdoc;, so it will be some few years beforethe high figure will be reached. The additionalrental applies to all ore-lump, fines,concentrates, pellets or any other processed orewe produce in the future.

By the way, it is interesting to note that theactual figure for royalties in 1978 paid by theHamersicy company was $19 206 000; in 1977 itexceeded $21 million; and in 1976 it exceeded $20million. Royalties vary with grade and where theiron ore is produced and sold to Australian steelmills the royalties are very low. This does notapply to H-amersicy Iron so much as it does to theNewman Mining Company.

I refer now to a proposition I have canvassedbefore in this House. The royalties paid by theiron ore producers in the Pilbara 'are not high byworld standards, but to offset -this relatively lowroyalty payment the companies have beenrequired to provide their own infrastructure.

We find public utilities such as schools,hosp itals, and police stations in places like TomPrice, Paraburdoo, Dampier, and Karratha whichnormally would have to be and should be providedby the Government have been built andmaintained by Hamersley I ron. I haverationalised this before, but I repeat: acombination of a reasonably low rentalaccompanied by the company providing theinfrastructure really adds up to a free-of-interest,long-term advance by the company to the State.In other words, it could be rationalised that theState is providing the infrastructure, but themoney is advanced to provide it well forward ofthe dale the State possibly could find it from itsown resources. It is a wonderful arrangementwhich was completed back in 1963, 1 believe.

One of the matters, mentioned earlier, to whichI wanted to refer is what, in fact, we do withroads in the Pilbara and the obligations the ironore companies have in respect of roads. I wouldlike to read part of clause 10(1 ) (d) of the originalagreement. With regard to obligations, thisparagraph provides that the company shallconstruct-

... such new roads as the Companyreasonably requires for its pupss.afterdiscussion with the respective shire councilsthrough whose districts any such roads- maypass and subject to prior agreement with theappropriate controlling authority (being ashire council or the Comfnissioner of MainRoads) as to terms and conditions theCompany may at its own expense and riskexcept as otherwise so agreed upgrade orrealign any existing road.

Further on we find reference to the roads built bythe company being available for general publicUse.

In fact, I-amersley Iron Pty. Limited hasconstructed many roads which are in general useby the public. The roads are not only within thetow nsite boundaries of Paraburdoo, Tom Price,and Dampier. Under the current and projectednormalisation programme these roads will bevested in the local authority. I am thinking ofroads such as that between the towns ite of TornPrice and the mine site, which is used by thepublic entering and departing from the town onthe way to Wittenoom, Paraburdoo, orNanutarra; and the road between Paraburdoo andthe airport, on which H-amersley Iron Pty,Limited has already arranged for the Main RoadsDepartment to spend $2 million. That section ispart of the Paraburdoo-Tomt Price Road and it isone of the roads mentioned by the AttorneyGeneral as being subject to construction with thefunds to be made available as a result or the Billnow before US.

Now we see the next stage; $2 million will bespent in 1979-80 and $2.5 million in 1980-SI.which as I have mentioned are repayableadvances and will reduce subsequent rentalpayments under the terms of the agreement Act.In fact, the State will be paying interest on thoseadvances.

The arrangement covered in the Bill does notreally reflect any great generosity on the part ofI-amersley Iron Pty. Limited. Rather, itillustrates commendable co-operation whichreacts to the benefit of the State, the company,and the residents of Tom Price, Paraburdoo, andthe area. By making $4.5 million available inadvance of the commitment under the Act, thetask may be proceeded with earlier. It has givenimpetus to the start of the $24 millionprogramme.

The discussion on road responsibility introducestwo other very interesting aspects which should bediscussed briefly. There is quite a definite moveaway from the crippling financial imposition

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borne by the mineral developers. All levels ofgovernment-Commonwealth, State, andlocal-are accepting the fact that they shouldmeet certain commitments in respect of theinfrastructure associated with the wonderfultowns which have been developed. I think infuture we will progressively move further in thisdirection and expect that all costs normallyaccepted by the Government will also be providedby the Government in this part of the State.

I have already referred to the normalisationwhich is going on at this very time but the trendcan be very clearly demonstrated by thearrangement the Premier made at the last LoanCouncil meeting, when one of the major projectsfor which funds could be borrowed overseas wasfor the integration of the electricity supply systemthroughout the Pilbara. Hopefully, the companieswill no longer have to carry that type of burden.

The second matter which arises in connectionwith roads is that a great deal of discussion hastaken place about the Pannawonica access road.It is a favourite. topic of discussion by members ofthe Opposition when they make their junkets intothe Pilbara. The State is spending almost$500 000 currently on the access road toPannawonica but it, will produce only a dirt roadand will have some shortcomings as far as all-weather characteristics are concerned. The sameclause relating to road obligations, whichHamersley Iron has been ready to pick up appliesalso to the Cleveland-Cliffs agreement Act. iI'Cliffs-Robe River Iron Ore Associates wouldcome to the party, this road could be progressedto sealing as the Hamersley Iron roads have been.

I believe the difficulty arises with the definitionof the term "a road which the companyreasonably requires for its purposes". Hamersleyhas put a broad interpretation on it, in that if itscommunities need such roads, it will contribute.Cliffs-Robe River has not accepted that. If itneeds a road between the townsite and the minesite, it is a road which is reasonably required forcompany purposes, but the important socialbenefit of putting a road from the townsite to themain highway is ignored by this company. I hopewe can overcome this impasse'and have a road toserve the people of Pannawonica and get them outto the North-West Coastal Highway on a good,sealed, all-weather road.

The last matter I want to introduce is thequestion of the blatant untruth which has beenperpetuated in relation to the sealing of thePilbara roads, apparently for political advantage.It was referred to during debate in the otherHouse, but it has been referred to frequently bymany people ever since the election campaign in

1974, when it was claimed that the then Leader ofthe Opposition (Sir Charles Court) promised thatthe inland Pilbara roads would be sealed withinthe life of the 1974-1977 Parliament.

I was at that public meeting at Tom Price atwhich the Premier was reported to have madethat statement; so also was another aspiringcandidate for election to this Parliament (MrBrian Sodeman) who is now the member forPilbara. The Premier said he would have "ablueprint" prepared for the progressive 'sealing ofthe inland Pilbara roads, and that is exactly whathe has done. In fact, we are discussing part ofthat overall blueprint for the sealing of thePilbara roads when speaking to this Bill and thepart it will play in giving effect to the plan.

The Minister for Lands will know thedifficulties we have had. I must mention that inthe preparation of the overall Pilbara road plan, agreat deal of urging and encouragement was givenby local members to ensure that, in point of fact,we did get down on 'paper the broad planningwhich would be followed for the road system inthe Pilbara.

The H-on. D. J1. Wordsworth: I will endorsethat.

The Hon. 3. C. TOZER: The Minister forLands will remember-because the discussionswere still going on when he took over the portfolioof transport-the difficulties in completing what Ichoose to call a "blueprint". Difficulty wasexperienced in relation to approval from Canberrafor the national highway programme. There wasthe problem of relocation of the Great NorthernHighway, to delete the route through Nullagineand Marble Bar and reroute the highway where itwould service the iron ore industry in the future.The people in Canberra had to be convinced thatwas the proper route for the national highway.

A measiire of uncertainty still exists aboutsmall sections of the final route. Clearly, the roadwill pick up traffic which will be generated fromthe future towns at Rhodes Ridge andGoldsworthy area "C", from Marandoo,Wittenoom, and other towns, and also in the firstinstance from Tom Price and Paraburdoo. Thereis still a question mark about exactly where theroad will drop from the tablelands into theFortescue Valley; perhaps it will pass through theRio Tinto Gorge. A problem exists in relation 'tothe Sherlock Valley alignment, as the drivers inthe recent Repco trial found out.

However, with pressure from the northernmembers, work by Ministers and theirdepartments, and coercion of the Commonwealth

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people the plan did emerge, and in the speech Imade last April I outlined the nature of the plan.

There is no way in the world that the Premiercould possibly have made the alleged promise. Attoday's costs we are looking at something in theorder Of $150 million to seal about 1 100kilometres of road. Whatever else the Premierdoes, he understands facts and figures better thananyone I know of. Without the injection ofcolossal additional and new Commonwealth fundshe could -not possibly have achieved within 10 orperhaps even 20 years the programme it is statedhe promised he would achieve. Knowing this,there is no way he could ever have made such astupid claim. As one who listened to him intentlyat that meeting at Tomn Price six years ago, I canvouch for the fact that he did not make such astatement. The people who persist in claimingthat he stated all these Pilbara roads would besealed by 1977 are perpetuating a deliberateuntruth. Their actions are most reprehensible.

I welcome any progress in my longstandingobjective to achieve normal road access for thecommunity in inland Pilbara. Therefore, Iwelcome the Bill and unreservedly support thesecond reading.

THE HON. N. F. MOORE (Lower North)[8.00 p.m.]: I would like to commence myremarks by congratulating the Hon. John Tozeron his excellent speech which was typically JohnTozer, in the sense that it was well researched andwell documented, and showed his obvious greatunderstanding of the problems of the Pilbara;which is more than I can say for some city-basedlawyers these days who would claim otherwise.

I rise to speak very briefly in this debatebecause for five years i experienced the rigours ofthe Pilbara. roads, having lived in the Karratha-Tonm Price area for five years in the early 1970s.Being relatively active in those days, I spent agreat deal of time driving from town to town, andon many occasions I drove along the Tom Price-Nanutarra road, which is quite famous for itsoften very poor condition.

To keep myself sane on those trips I used tocompose in my mind letters to the Premier of theday about that particular road. Fortunately at theend of the journey I was so pleased either to get toTom Price or to reach the bitumen at Nanutarrathat I never got around to writing a letter; whichwas probably fortunate again in that some of thelanguage I would have used would not be fit forhuman consumption.

Therefore, I am delighted to see legislationbefore the House which will help to providedecent, all-weather roads in the West Pilbara

area, and particularly the roads around themining towns of Tom Price and Paraburdoo.

I will conclude by congratulating the Hon. JohnToter, the member for Pilbara (Mr Sodeman).and the Hon. Bill Withers for their efforts overmany years to improve the roads. Being interestedin the development of the area they have workedextremely hard to achieve some progress inrespect of the improvement of the roads in thePilbara. This legislation, together with theGovernment's other programmes, is a step in theright direction.

THE HON. 1. G. NIEDCALF (Metropolitan-Attorney General) (8.03 p.m.]: It has been agreat pleasure to hear the comments made bymembers, and particularly the comments of the.Hon. John Toter who with his usual meticulouscare has researched every detail of the Bill. Iwould like to express appreciation also for thesupport given to the Bill by other members,including the Leader of the Opposition, MrWithers, and Mr Moore.

Mr Dans asked a question about royalties. Hewanted to know whether any iron ore is notsubject to the payment of royalties. The answer is,"Yes." This is set out in the agreement. The ironore on which royalties are not paid is that which issent abroad for testing. As Mr Tozer would knowvery well, the only ore on which royalties are paidis that which is shipped or sold. Ore which is usedfor testing purposes does not carry a royalty.

I would like to say it is not often a member isprepared to devote such time and effort as thatdevoted by the Hon. John Toter to a study of allthe intricacies in relation to a Bill such as this.Not only is Mr Toter very well aware, as a resultof his personal knowledge, Of all the details inrespect of these mining areas and the districtroads, but also he has made a study of theagreement itself and of the various amendingagreements to which he referred. By virtue of thepositions he has held in the area, both in hisformer capacity and now as a member ofParliament, he has been intimately concernedwith the negotiations which have taken place withthe mining companies-

In a way that few members of this Parliamentor of the public recognise, he has understood justhow successful an agreement this one has been.He has pointed out that with great foresightarrangements were made for an increase in theroyalties after a period of 15 years, and thosearrangements are now bearing fruit. Mr Toterreferred also to the fact that a quite uniquearrangement has now been made whkch has noparallel anywhere else; that is, today royalties are

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being paid in advance. Admittedly they are beingpaid on a very slightly discounted basis, butnevertheless they are being paid in advance andare being used to provide the roads this area needsso urgently.

This House should be grateful to Mr Tozer forhis speech. Those who did not hear what he hassaid-and even those who heard it-would dowell to read. in detail his speech when it isreproduced in Hansard. I would like to express tohim the appreciation of the Government for hiswork, because all too infrequently someone sitsdown and carefully analyses what was plannedand what has happened. So frequently we engagein making plans for the future, but we do not laterexamine the situation to ascertain what didhappen. Another thing we do all too commonly isassume that things will happen in a certain way;and, of course, often. they do not happen that way,but arc altered by the ability, the perspicacity.and the application of human beings.

In this case we had an outstanding leader in SirCharles Court who years ago saw the potential forthe State in this arrangement with HamersteyIron Pty. Ltd. He set down the guidelines fromwhich we are now obtaining some results. It issomething we and also the public shouldrecognise.

I express to Mr Tozer my appreciation for hiscomment, and I thank other members for theirsupport of the Bill.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

In Committee, etc.Bill passed through Committee without debate,

reported without amendment, and the reportadopted.

WESTERN AUSTRALIAN MARINEACT AMENDMENT BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from the 23rd August.THE HON. R. HETHERINGTON (East

Metropolitan) [8.10 p.m.]; When the Hon. R. F.Claughton moved the adjournment of the debateon the Bill, he hoped he would be present tonightto say a few words about it. However, as he hasbeen unavoidably called away from the House, hehas asked me to make a few comments.*Mr Claughton welcomes the Bill, which is in

line with things he has said in the past about theneed for greater and better policing of theregulations. He regards the Bill, as I do, as a step

in the right direction. However, there are one ortwo matters which perturb us, and we wonderwhether the Bill goes far enough.

As the number of pleasure craft on the rivershas grown, even as the number of motor vehicleson the roads has grown, we have been forced tointroduce regulations. Sometimes perhaps we waittoo long and are forced to make regulationsfollowing events rather than in anticipation ofevents.

I am glad that now all craft are to be forced tofollow the rules of the road, as I think they arecalled in the Minister's speech. I find thatterminology a little odd, but I can understand it. Iwonder if all people who own boats, particularlythose driven by internal combustion engines, arecompetent to drive them. I well recall the story ofthe grandfather of a person I knew quite wellmany years ago. This grandfather was one of thefirst people to own a motorcar; and when hewanted it to stop he used to pull very firmly onthe steering wheel and say, "Whoa!"

The PRESIDENT: Order! Would honourablemembers refrain from audible conversation whileanother member is speaking in a debate?

The H-on. R. HETHERINGTON: Fortunatelyit is possible to laugh about that story because theperson did not run into or hurt anybody; healways managed to stop the car in time. In duecourse he was wise enough to let his daughterdrive him around. However, had everyone drivenlike him, we could have had more tragedies.

In fact that person was not competent to drive.Of course, now we have road rules, and beforepeople are allowed to drive motor vehicles theyare tested and licensed; they must provethemselves competent to drive a vehicle. I amwondering whether we should do something alongthose lines in respect of people who awn boats.With the best intention in the world, some boatowners could well be not fully competent to usetheir boats. As boat numbers increase, perhaps weneed to make the regulations more stringent. Notthat I care for making regulations undulystringent; I do not want to multiply rulesunnecessarily. However, I am sure the AttorneyGeneral will consider this matter.

The other point I wish to mention is that astory is told of a person who bought a new boatand thought it was safe. On his first time out hefound it had two anchors, which he thought wouldbe sufficient. He found one anchor was too light,and the other was a sand anchor; and he couldhave round himself in very real trouble had notsomeone else been close by to help him out.

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[Tuesday, 28(h August, 1979] 21

I wonder whether we should now consider alsothe possibility of having seaworthiness *orriverworthiness checks on boats before they aresold. I wonder whether such checks should not bemade compulsory at sales outlets. HoWever, I donot want to pursue that subject.

We welcome the Bill as far as it goes because itis a step in the right direction. It has been madenecessary by developments in the growth ofpleasure craft on our rivers;, but it would be agood idea if the Government looked to thematters I have raised and perhaps looked furtherahead.

The last time I spoke about an amendment tothe Western Australian Marine Act, I said thatwe seemed to be amending that Act all the time.It seems that there have been three amendmentsin the last fortnight. Perhaps it is time for somework to be done on updating the Act, as has beendone under another Bill to be before us shortly.Perhaps there should be some consolidation andforward planning so that the Act is brought up todate, and projects into the future.

Apart from those comments, I support the Bill.THE HON. R. THOMPSON (South

Metropolitan) [8. 16 p.m.]-. I support theprovisions in this legislation regardinginfringement notices. That is a matter worthy of'consideration by the House.

Lately much concern has been expressed aboutpleasure craft, the people using them, and thesafety of the boats. I do a little fishing in outsidewaters and I am concerned about the people whoown bondwcod boats. A few mishaps haveoccurred recently which have involved bondwoodboats.

This relates to what Mr Hetherington said.People buy bondwood. boats, some of which are 15or 20 years old, or maybe even more. About threemonths ago when I was returning from GardenIsla nd I saw some people who barely made it intothe anchorage at Cockburn. The boat had abouttwo inches of freeboard by the time it arrived. Ithad burst a seam.

Of course, people buy these boatsunsuspectingly, thinking they are safe. However,in the long run it is not safe to keep using oldboats if they are made of bondwood. If one ownsan aluminium or a fibreglass boat, one has a goodchance of making it back to shore.

I helped the man of whom I am speaking tomove his boat into the harbour and I was mostconcerned about his situation. I voiced mycriticism of his foolhardiness in going out in sucha boat. It was not a very calm day, either.

My main concern is in relation to section 205 ofthe Act. That is a very small portion of theMarine Act, which deals with pleasure craft.When we speak of "Pleasure craft", we meanboats which are not for hire-the type of boats ofwhich I have been speaking. People go fishing inthem in outside waters.

When the Bill was introduced in another place.I contacted the Harbour and Light Departmentand asked for a copy of the regulations. t said,"When can I pick them up?" .1 give due credit tothe current manager of the department. I was toldthat I could have them within about two hours, soI went in and obtained them.I

1, with the Hon. Norman Baxter, canremember an occasion when a Select Committeewas inquiring into the crayfishing industry. Aboat named Katie Jo was lost at Dongara. Irequested the regulations covering all craft fromthe Harbour and Light Department, and 2!6 yearslater I received some of them.

On the recnt occasion the department readilymade the regulations available. However, when Ireceived the regulations I discovered that theyconsisted of the navigable water regulations, ofcourse, which are the governing regulations andare contained in quite a sizable book; another setof regulations covering six pages; a couple ofsingle-page regulations; and another 31regulations on loose pieces of paper. That is whatI received from the department. Some of theregulations in the last batch are on multiplepages, not just single pages. 1 do not know how aperson who wants to do the right thing can siftthrough all these regulations. Some of them areout-dated; some replace other regulations. I donot believe I could sort them out myself, and Ithink most members of Parliament understand alittle about regulations.

It is ridiculous to present regulations in thisform. It is difficult for a person to memorise thembut that is what he has to to do if he is to usethem when he is out in a boat. One has to knowskiing areas, navigation areas, channels, and allthat sort of thing.

I think it is time we ceased brow-beating boatowners for not upholding the regulations. Thereshould be a booklet which puts in a simple waythe relevant regulations. The booklet should notuse the phraseology of the regulations. It shouldsay, "You can do this, you can do that, and youcan do something else in this area." All theregulations should be sorted into areas coveringthe Swan River, some of the inland rivers downsouth, and the ocean-sheltered. waters and bluewater.

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It is most necessary for us to consider boatsafety if we are to help the people who use boats.Anybody can go and buy a boat without any priorqualifications, and without any boatingexperience at all. A person can step into a boat,hope for the best, and go to sea. He may not haveany safety gear.

The advice I would give to those people whobuy a boat and do not know much about it is tojoin a power boat club immediately. The clubsmake sure before the boat is put into the waterthat the owner has all the necessary safetyequipment. The Cockburn Power Boat Club, ofwhich I am a member, is more strict than theHarbour and Light Department because itensures that a member's boat has two anchors,and double all the necessary equipment. The clubdoes a very good job. When one goes out, oneknows one has more equipment than is necessary.

I feel that ulitiniately boats will have to beinspected, and the owners will have to be givensome test to determine whether they are capableof handling a boat. The simplest dinghy with anoutboard motor on it can be very dangerous evenon the Swan River. Some of the big craft do notobserve the speed limit. I have seen people in a12-foot dinghy, out for a little fishing or crabbing,and the dinghy has been almost swamped when aboat went zooming past, creating a large bowwave.

I support the legislation, but I would urge theresponsible Minister to have the departmentproduce a handbook to assist people with thesafety regulations. I feel sure it would benefit thedepartment in the long run if boat owners did nothave to go through a maze of regulations.

THE HON. D. J1. WORDSWORTH (South-Minister for Lands) [8.24 p.m.]: I thankmembers for their comments on the Bill.

Mention has been made of the number of timesBills amending the Western Australian MarineAct have been before the House. I make noapologies for that. Since the Harbour and LightDepartment has been under the responsibility ofthe Minister for Transport, the Act has received alot more airing than it has in the past. PreviousGovernments, both Liberal and Labor, haveplaced the department under the control of theMinister for Works, and the emphasis was moreon construction. As it is now under thejurisdiction of the Minister for Transport, and asthe manager of the department reports directly tothat Minister, more emphasis than before hasbeen placed on the problems associated with thewaters.

Great credit is due Mr Clive Gordon, themanager of the department. Quite a number oflegislative changes have been proposed, and it hasbeen suggested that the Act be updated andrewritten. However, if that were to be attempted,perhaps we would experience the same difficultiesas were experienced with the Mining Act whensuddenly a conglomerate of changes took place,and no-one could identify each change inisolation. At least with the Bills presented to us onthe Marine Act we have had the opportunity toexamine each proposal in its own right.

I think there will be an updating of the Actafter 1980, when the negotiations between theState and the Federal Governments areconcluded. It has been agreed in Commonwealth-State negotiations that the Commonwealth willhave jurisdiction over interstate and overseasvessels, and that the State will continue to beresponsible for intrastate vessels, and fishing andpleasure craft.

The Harbour and Light Department, of course,

Is responsible for all craft within the three-milelimit. The fees charged for the registration ofboats are not contributed in any way to thebuilding of ramps and other such constructions.Such work is done by the Public WorksDepartment, and a considerable amount of moneyis being spent on such work.

I note that a sum of over SI million is currentlybeing spent on the Mullaloo launching facilities,with breakwaters and that sort of thing. Membersmust appreciate the high costs concerned withitems.

Boating has become a very important hobbyand sport for Western Australians. More moneymust be allocated to the facilities for the sport.

I was somewhat surprised to find thatTasmania has more boats per head than WesternAustralia, and that is despite the bad weatherexperienced in Tasmania. Nevertheless, there areover 50 000 boats in Western Australia and fairlystrict control is exercised over them.

However, I endorse the remarks of MrThompson who recommended that people belongto yacht clubs and boat clubs. The disciplineexperienced within such clubs is the best way ofensuring safety.

Mention was made of the Fastnet race. I wouldlike to think that the same sort of catastrophecould not happen in Western Australia because ofthe very stringent conditions imposed by yachtclubs and boat clubs. Indeed, one cannot go veryfar from Esperance or Albany without a radio, ifone belongs to a yacht club. However, there werehundreds of yachts participating in the Fastnet

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[Tuesday, 28th August, 1979]. 21

race-and it could only be described as aninternational yacht race-which had no radio,and no adequate safety gear; and in many cases,the yachtsmen bad no experience.

Fortunately a great deal more expertise isexercised in the management of the yacht races inthis State. This is just as well, because ifextremely bad weather blew up during theEsperance to Albany yacht race, the participantswould be in difficulties, as we do not have thehelicopters and coastal safety craft which wentquickly to the aid of the yachtsmen in the Fastnetrace.

It has been suggested that the regulationsshould be reprinted; and I agree with the Hon.Ron Thompson that they are very extensive. Aneminent QC is rewriting the regulations and istrying to put them in order. I hope his task will becompleted in the near future.

Publications have been issued by the Harbourand Light Department. These publications do notrewrite the regulations, but they give boat ownersa better idea of the conditions under which theyshould operate their boats. The Minister forTransport has set up an advisory committeecomprising members of yacht clubs and otherswho have helped him considerably in themanagement of yachts on the Swan River andelsewhere.

There is no doubt that the Swan River iscrowded with boats at certain times. As a result,same nasty accidents have occurred and this Billrefers to the situations in which boats must stop.

Another part of the Bill deals with the manningand seaworthiness of boats moving betweenmoorings. Previously a craft could move freelywithin a port; but, as Mr Dans said quite rightly,some of those ports extend over a considerablearea so that boats in an unseaworthy conditionwere putting to sea.

I thank members for their support of the Bill.Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

In Committee, etc.

Bill passed through Committee without debate,reported without amendment, and the reportadopted.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSETHE HON. 1. G. MEDCALF (Metropolitan

-Attorney General) [8.34 p.m.J: I move-That the House do now adj ourn.

Australian Labor Party: PolicyTHlE HON. Rt. G3. PIKE (North Metropolitan)

[8.35 P.m.]: Not too long ago in the House theHon. Lyla Elliott and the Hon. Fred McKenzieavailed themselves of the opportunity in theadjournment debate to make reference to theelection in New South Wales. dealing inparticular with the upper House there. In linewith the precedent established by those membersat that time, I would like to speak very briefly onthe adjournment debate and refer to mattersconcerning upper Houses and to other mattersgenerally.

I am concerned that' the Australian peopleshould not be misled by the so-called "softening"decisions concerning nationalisation and otherimportant matters taken by the ALP at its recentAdelaide conference.

The media generally has misled the public tothe degree that one could believe that the socialistLabor Party now had a free and competitiveenterprise manifesto. The facts are to the contraryand I remind the House that Labor politicians arebound by their conference decisions. Both theLabor Party and the ACTU still have as theirfirst objective the socialisation of industry,production, distribution, and exchange.

The Labor socialistic nationalisation policypromises to distribute abundance, but is at apermanent loss as to how to produce it.Inefficiencies in nationalised industries would leadAustralia. to progressive impoverishment.

I would like now to quote excerpts from therecent Labor Party conference so that at least thereaders of the 350 copies of Hansard which arepublished weekly will be informed.

I quote in the first instance from the LaborParty's platform in relation to State upperHouses. It reads as follows-

The ALP has retained its commitment tothe abolition of State upper H-ouses--theLegislative Councils in NSW, Victoria, SA,WA and Tasmania would all disappear underLabor.

The implications of this policy are as follows-Labor would remove an integral element of

the democratic parliamentary process in eachof these five States. .The retention of theupper House abolition plank highlights thetwo-faced nature of the ALP's position onthe Senate.

Then we pass to the Senate, and the policy on thismatter reads-

The previous ALP policy that the Senatebe abolished has been dropped, and has beenreplaced by the following proposals for

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".reform" of the Senate. Labor would seek toamend the Constitution:

to ensure that the Senate has no powerto reject, defer or otherwise block moneybillsto provide that the Senate may delay forup to six months but not reject any otherproposed law.

The implications of this policy are-

The ALP is ignoring the residents of thefour smaller States. While the ALP wouldnow retain the Senate, the proposals passedin Adelaide would result in the completeemasculation of the Senate. The Federalupper House would have no power at all overmoney Bills, and would lose its existingpower of rejection over all other Bills.

The Senate would, in effect, become quiteimpotent. The ALP's proposals completelysubvert the present constitutional role of theSenate as the States' House.

I would like to quote from the Labor Party'spolicy in relation to constitutional change. This isan important matter and reads as follows-

Labor will seek to amend the Constitutionto provide for its alteration by a simplemajority of the electorate.

The implications of this policy are-The ALP proposes to remove the existing

requirement that a majority of States mustapprove constitutional change, as well as amajority of the electorate. Thus NSW andVictoria could approve changes to theConstitution despite the combined oppositionof the four smaller States.

I would like to proceed to another matter whichconcerns particularly the Bill we have justdiscussed and relates to offshore sovereignty. Iquote from the Labor Party's platform again asfollows-

Labor would retain exclusive control bythe Australian Government over all offshoreresources and implement a 200 mileeconomic resource zone around Australia'scoast.

The implications of this particular policy are-Labor would deny the States any influence

over the control of Australia's offshoreresources. The Liberal/NCP Government'sspecial arrangements for joint authority overocean resources would be abolished by aLabor Government.

I would like to quote from the Labor Party policyin respect of nationalisation as follows-

Labor will "initiate enterprise, both publicand private, to regenerate Australianindustry and to ensure that Australian equityis realistically maximiised by such measuresas using a restructured AIDC, developing aNational Investment Fund as a source offinance, providing Government ownership,wholly or in part, and encouraging co-operatives".

The implications of that policy are-Labor proposes to stimulate Australian

industry by nationalising it. That is the clearimplication of the above commitment. Laborwould develop a "national investment fund"to mobilise taxpayers' funds to take overAustralian enterprises.

I now quote from the Labor Party policy inregard to socialist strategy and this is particularlyimportant. It reads as follows-

Labor is committed by its Platform to "anexpanded interventionist role by Government,and a responsible development of the publicsector to satisfy social needs and provideemployment".

The ALP's list of economic policyinstruments includes:

"intervention, where necessary, on boththe demand and the supply side of theeconomy, to achieve national objectives""nationalisation""'establishing or extending publicenterprise.."

The implications of that policy are-Labor has clearly stated its intention to

achieve even more Government interventionin the economy and a greater diversion ofresources to the public sector, furthersqueezing the private, productive sector. It isa reaffirmation of the socialist objectives ofthe ALP and the containment of privateenterprise under a centrally planned economyof the socialist European type.

The new ALP platform does not indicatewhich companies or industries it wouldnationalise. Any business activity could besubject to the ALP's 'Government takeover'policies.

Point of OrderThe Hon. D5. W. COOLEY: Is it in order for a

member to read his speech as the honourablemember is doing now? I thought there was aStanding Order stating that members were notpermitted to read speeches.

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The PRESIDENT: Order! It is out of order fora member to read his 'speech; but it is completelywithin the scope of the Standing Orders for amember to refer to notes or to read extracts fromdocuments. If the member is reading his speech Iask him to refrain from doing so.

Debate ResumedThe Hlan. R. G. PIKE: I am not reading my

speech; I am reading extracts from a documentwhich I am prepared to table and I said that atthe beginning of my speech.1

1 note in particular that the Labor Party tdndsto howl in despair when somebody even talksabout its political platform and it uses every trickin the book to prevent its being discussed. I wouldlike to continue to quote from my notes in relationto the Labor Party policy concerning a nationalnewspaper. It reads as follows-

A Labor Government would "initiatefurther study', into the feasibility of fosteringthe establishment of a newspaper,independent of both Government andexisting pri'ate interests, conducted by thosewho produce it".

The implications of that policy are--Labor intends to use public money to

produce a national newspaper withoutexplaining what role it would fill, why it isneeded, and who would be responsible for it.Such a national newspaper would, no doubt,become par* of the ALP Government'spropaganda armoury.

1 ask the House to note the policy of the LaborParty in relation to a wealth tax and I quote fromthe new policy of the ALP as follows-

Labor will "enhance the equity of the taxsystem by taxing large accumulations ofpersonal capital above a floor that isreviewed regularly and takes into account thespecial circumstances of farmers smallbusinessmen and aged people, and excludesthe normal holdihgs assembled over alifetime by persons and family units".

The implications of that particular policy are asfollows-

For the first time Labor has introducedinto its policy a commitment to a wealth tax.This is not a mere capital gains tax, but aproposal to tax the capital base itself. Thequalification to the proposal means nothingand could be ignored by a Labor Governmenthungry for revenue to fund its socialisationprogramme, All individual Australians whohad acquired funds or land or other property

could be subject to the tax, and it would belevied regardless of the liquidity of theindividual. In many cases individuals wouldhave to sell off assets to pay the tax.

I ask the House to pay particular attention to thepolicy of the Labor Party concerning industrialrelations and I quote-

The new ALP Platform provides for theright of workers to "organise in democratictrade unions and to collectively bargain andto exercise the right to strike in the course ofsuch activities immune from any pains andpenalties directed against unions andunionists".

An ALP Government would recognise "therights of unions to regulate their own affairsin a democratic way free from Governmentand judicial interference . ..

Labor would abolish the -industrialRelations Bureau.

Unions would be exempted from theprovisions of the Trade Practices Act.

The implications are as follows-Under a Labor Government the trade

unions would be virtually above and beyondthe law, and a Labor Government would takeno action through the processes of the law toprotect innocent Australian people from thedamaging consequences of union action.

While the ALP has stated its commitmentto democratic trade unions, it has denied anALP Government any mechanismwhatsoever to ensure the implementation ofthat principle.

The right of unionists to appeal to thecourts where their rights have been infringedby the union would be denied by a LaborGovernment. Damaging secondary boycottswould no longer be illegal under Laborbecause unions would be immune fromsection 45D of the Trade Practices Act. It isclearly an L"anything goes" policy as far asthe unions are concerned.

The next quote from the ALP platform concernspolitical strikes and it reads as follows-

An ALP Government would "recognisethat the legitimate role of the trade unions isnot limited to legally defined industrialmatters".

The implications are as follows-Labor has clearly endorsed "political

Strikes" in adopting this plank, and hasindicated its contempt for the democraticparliamentary process. Labor does not accept

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Parliament as the proper place for voicing itsconcerns and opinions, but has deferred tothe unions in acknowledging that they canstrike on any issue at all and force their viewson the Australian public. The plank is adirect threat to democracy.

A further quote from the ALP platform under theheading "Closed Shop" reads as follows-

Labor will "encourage the membership ofregistered organisations through theprovision of preference to unionists in thetaking of leave and . .. in their engagementand promotion and their retention in cases ofretrenchment".

The implication is as follows-Labor has stated its commitment to the

insidious closed shop, under which non-unionists are effectively denied the right towork.

In conclusion, there is one rule for unions andanother for employers. I ask the House to note thefollowing-

An ALP, Government would moveimmediately to repeal "all penalties forstrikes against arbitral decisions of theCommission or a conciliation committee andthe prohibition of action by the Commissionto insert or register clauses in awards oragreements excluding the rights of workers toresort to industrial action".

The implications are as follows-This again demnonstrates the ALP's

eagerness to place unions completely outsidethe s~ope of the law. However, the realsignificance of the policy is that the 1977platform had been even-handed in that itcalled for the repeal of penalties for employer"lockouts" as well. The words "and lockouts"were taken out at the 1979 conference,meaning that while unions would be free toengage in strike action without penalty-

The PRESIDENT: Order! I am of the opinionthat the honourable member is now reading hisspeech and I ask him to cease doing so.

The Hon. R. G. PIKE: Thank you, Sir. Theemployers would be penalised in regard to thisproposition if they retaliated by engaging in alockout and this new ALP policy was described bya Western Australian delegate as absurd.

I will obey your ruling immediately, Sir, and inconclusion I would like to say it is proper andcorrect that the decisions of the Federalconference of the ALP which are binding on allLabor members and'which are in fact instructionsto them should be recorded in Hansard so that

members in this place know the blueprint foraction imposed on Labor members for the ensuingperiod.

THE HON. R. HETHERINGTON (EastMetropolitan) [8.49 p.m.]: Once again we havebeen subjected to a farrago of fact and fantasy bythe honourable gentleman who has just resumedhis seat.

I hope we will not be subjected to too much ofthis because if so we will have long debates nightafter night on the adjournment as we are debatingparty policy. Thai would be quite undesirable.

The H-on. R. G. Pike: The adjournmentmotion-

The Hon. Rt. HETHERINGTON: I point outto the honourable gentleman that I sat completelysilent through what I regarded as a not verypleasant speech and one which we could quite wellhave done without. I hope he shows me the samecourtesy because 1 do not wish to take up the timeof the House unduly. However, I want to registermy protest at the amount of nonsense we havehad to put up with tonight.

I would be pleased if the honourable membercould make a speech without reference to otherpeople's documents or without reading out partypolicy and then, reading from another document,so-called implications as if they were fact. It doesnot do the debate any good.

The Hon. R. G. Pike: You are at liberty toreview the implications, if they are incorrect, asyou know-

The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I wouldsuggest to the honourable gentleman that if hewishes to debate the Labor Party policy heintroduce a substantive motion in the House sothat we can listen to his speech, adjourn thedebate, and deal with it fully and competently. Icertainly do not intend to deal with the wholequestion now, nor, the next time the adjournment.motion is moved, do I want to make the two orthree-hour speech which I would probably need tomake in order to deal with the kind of nonsensewe have had tonight.

It is an interesting trick to read extracts from aplatform and then allude to implications whichare not always correct, to do one's owninterpreting and not the interpretation Of thepeople who wrote the platform, then to makeassumptions and moral judgments which condemnthe platform by implication.

The Labor Party believes in a great deal moreGovernment interference and control over theeconomy than the Liberal and Country Parties do.We are a social democratic party; we have been

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[Tuesday, 28th August, 19791 22

for a long time, and will remain so. We are aparty which believes that unions should havefreedom to pursue industrial matters and shouldhave the right to strike. We are after all a partywhich was rounded by the trade unions. We arenot a party that is a servant of trade unions, but aparty that cuts across the narrow, sectionalinterests. We are a truly national party. As amatter of fact we are the only truly national partyin this country and I am of the opinion-I merelyput this forward as an opinion not as an allegedfact-that we are the party which best has theinterests of the country at heart. That is why I ama member of this party.

I object to being subjected to continual tiradesfrom the honourable gentleman which suggestthat I am some sort of dupe or fool and, moreparticularly, that I do not believe in individualfreedom and liberties; or that I believe incomplete anarchy; or that the trade unions areabove the law. We do not believe that at all. Wedo believe the trade union movement is importantand that unless more notice is taken of the tradeunion movement and unless there is moreconciliation in this society, confrontation maylead to great social dislocation.

I point out to the Hon. Robert Pike that in mymaiden speech I referred to the need for greaterconciliation in our society and expressed the hopethat the Government and people such as himselfwould not try to force further confrontation. Ofcourse he prefers to do that because he cannotunderstand the fears of people who are in greatfinancial difficulty. He always finds it easy, as somany people do, to say that the ills of our societyare the fault of only one side; that when thesystem breaks down the fault lies not with thepeople who cannot employ, but with the peoplewho are not employed. Such people claim that thetrade union movement exercises great power insociety, when, of course, the real power in thissociety is exercised by the owners means ofproduction, distribution, and exchange.

The policy of the Labor Party is the democraticsocialisation of the means of production,distribution, and exchange to the extent necessaryto prevent exploitation. The honourablegentleman was again guilty of producing selectivequotations, but, because of my experience in thisHouse that does not surprise me, because I wouldexpect the honourable gentleman not to give fullcredit for anything the Labor Party has achieved.As do many of the people he consults, he attemptsto project the Labor Party as a sort of left-wingfacism, and I object to this;, it is nonsense.

Quite often one will find that the people whomake accusations in intemperate ways about

other people are often transferring their own realfeelings about their opponents. I will not deal indetail with the comments of the honourablegentleman because I cannot remember them all. Ishould retract that, and say I will not deal indetail with the extracts from a document read outby the honou table gentleman. As I have said,when he can debate issues without readingdocumen 'ts that other people have produced andwithout clutching his security blanket of notesthen the level of debate in this House will rise.

The Hon. R. G. Pike: I did not usC notes whendebating with Lyla Elliott on the last two sittingdays. That is a fabrication.

The Hon. ft. HETHERINGTON: Perhaps thehonourable member does not like theadjournment debate, If he does not no doubt hewill go on the way he has behaved tonight andthen Standing Orders may be amended to depriveus of this debate. I hope this does not happenbecause 1 think the adjourment debate can be avery valuable exercise if it is not misused. I knowI have been guilty of this myself in the past whenI was new and still wet behind the ears. I hope Iwill not do that again, though sometimes I amtempted. No doubt when we come to the Budgetdebate I will be able to deal with some of themember's comments quite adequately if I think itworth the trouble to do so.

The honourable gentleman has nounderstanding of the principles of the LaborParty, he has no understanding of what we aredoing, and has no understanding of anything asfar as I can see, except his own obsessivepreoccupations. I ask the honourable gentlemanto be good enough to table the documents fromwhich he read.

The documents were fabled (see paper No. 297).THlE HON. D. W. COOLEY (North-East

Metropolitan) [8.59 p.m.]: I honestly think thatsomeone in the Liberal Party should talk to MrPike, especially after the disgusting exhibition hesubjected us to tonight in this Chamber when hedenigrated the Labor Party and everythingassociated with it.

In his speech on the opening night of thisParliament, in front of the very good people whocame here, including members of the defenceforces, the judiciary, and church groups he madea similar attack. There has not been one occasionin this Chamber when this gentleman has been onhis feet other than to denigrate the Labor Party.He has not made one real contribution to thedebate on any issue before this Chamber.

I do not think that is good enough. Thehonourable member has a Bill before the

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Chamber now but that Bill will never be debated.HeI wanted to get a bit of publicity, but he failed.

1 want to make the point that we are here aspolitical opponents. We are members of the LaborParty, and the members of the Liberal Party andthe members of the Country Party are on theother side. In the main we are true blue to ourrespective causes. I am Labor, and at everyopportunity-and I think this attitude isjustiied-I will criticise the Liberal Party andthe National Country Party. But, Mr President,there is another sort of political animal in thiscountry; that is, a person who twists from oneparty to the other. It is not so bad in itself for aperson who believes he has joined the wrong partyto change to the other side.

The Hon. R. G. Pike: You are talking aboutWheeldon 20 years ago.

The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: If that personconfines himself to the philosophy of that partyand does not criticise too much or too consistentlythe party from which he came, that is all right.However, it is typical of right-wing extremists toengage in the type of action we have witnessedtonight. We see some of it in the Liberal Partybecause the remnants of the Democratic LaborParty are now in the Liberal Party.

The Hon. R. G. Pike: What about Miss Elliottand Mr McKenzie criticising the Victorian upperHouse?

The Hon. D. W. COOL EY: Mr Pike is one ofthose right-wing extremists who went from theLabor Party to the Liberal Party, and ever sincehe has done nothing but criticise the ALP.

The Hon. R. G. Pike: Come on-21 years ago!The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: That is right.The Hon. R. G. Pike: What about Dunstan and

Wheeldon of the Labor Party?The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: In his three

sessions he has not made one contribution inwhich he has not denigrated the ALP. HeI remindsme of Tony MeG illick who was a member of theCommunist Party and who is now anti-LaborParty, and of the Martyrs, the Perehysts, and thelike. The Liberal Party would be doing thisgentleman a good service if its members took MrPike under their wing and gave him a few of thefacts of political life. I know the Liberal Partymembers are all embarrassed tonight. They arelooking at each other and thinking, "I wish thishad never happened".

The Hon. ft. G. Pike: I do not need to bepatronised by the honourable member.

The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: I know the leopardcannot change his spots, but a snake in the grass

can change very quickly. There are many snakesin the grass in -the political sphere; they havetwisted from one party to the other. Although Ihave no respect for them, I do not mind peopletwisting from one party to another party, butwhen they do twist they should not constantlycriticise the party to which they belongedpreviously in the manner Mr Pike has.

The Hon. R. G. Pike: I am attacking yourphilosophy, not your personality.

The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: Mr Pike is only aquasi-Liberal who jumped onto the bandwagonbecause the Liberal Party was popular. If it suitedhis purpose, Mr Pike would join the ALP. Hewould do this if the prize were a seat in thisChamber. Mr Pike will go whichever way thewind blows, but at least he ought to be politicallyhonest. He should take a grip on himself, and heshould not continually denigrate his politicalopponents as he does. Other members on theGovernment side do not practise it because theyare Liberals to the heart. Mr Pike is not; he is aperson who has twisted, and like other so-calledLabor members I have mentioned, he wishes tocreate as much dissension and trouble as he can.It does him no credit.

The Hon. R. G. Pike: Come on-21 years ago!THE HON. G. E. MASTERS (West) (9.05

p.m.I: I want to make one comment. Quitefrankly I am appalled at the way the debate hasbeen carried on tonight. I do not think that wehave a Standing Order to deal with the situation,but it seems to me that we have witnessed anabuse of the adjournment debate. I alwaysbelieved that the only matter to be debated on theadjournment motion was a matter of urgency orsomething of great consequence to the House.That does not appear to me to be the case tonight.It does the House no credit for members tocontinue in this manner. Although there is no wayI can see to apply the Standing Orders in thiscase, I suggest that if similar debates occur again,the Standing Orders Committee should look atthe matter seriously to see what can be done. I amashamed of the way the debate has beenconducted.

THE HON. A. A. LEWIS (Lower Central)[9.06 p.m.]: I want to rise and to join quietly withMr Masters in his remarks, and to just Correct afew things that have been said. It may be th *atLabor Party members talk to people about theirattitudes and the way they should perform andvote in this place, but I would like to say to MrCooley that every member of the Liberal Partyvotes as a Liberal.

[Tuesday, 28th August, 1979] 22

The Hon. R. T. Leeson: But he said, you were atrue blue so you have no problems.

The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: He has said also inprevious debates that I am one of the people hecan get along with, so I may have some rapportwith him and my gentle chastisements may beaccepted by members on the other side of theHouse.

It is unfair to attack Mr Pike and to say that hehas not contributed to other debates. I have toagree that his abiding concern is the difference inphilosophies of the two parties, but I haveheard-and I am sure members opposite haveheard-Mr Pike join in other debates and makecontributions to them.

The Hon. R. T. Leeson: He has not saidanything at all on the Skeleton Weed(Eradication Fund) Act Amendment Bill.

The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Well, the honourablemember said very little on that himself. I heardMr Cooley's comments about right-wingextremists, twisting, and so on. I hope that I hadsomething to do in re-orientating-if I may call itthat-Mr Pike's ideas on what should be doneand what should not be done in the politicalworld. I think, together with the Leader of theHouse, I have had some influence-although verylittle I may add-on Mr Pike's change ofdirection. I do not blame anyone who is bigenough to admit that he should change direction.

The Hon. D. W. Cooley: I said that.The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: However, for one

member to call another member in this House asnake in the grass does not do us any justice at all.

I think it would have been better had thisdebate not taken place, but I believe I shouldsupport Mr Pike because he has the right to standup to express his views. The Liberal Party doesnot deny people their rights; we do not tell themwhat they should say in Caucus. I hope that Ihave corrected the assumptions made on thismatter.

Point of OrderThe Hon. R. G. PIKE: I rise on a point of

order, sir.The PRESIDENT: What is the point of order?The Hon. R. G. PIKE: When Mr Cooley spoke

he did not call me a snake in the grass. Hecouched his comments in such a way that he didnot use those words. Had he done so I would haverisen on a point of order.

The PRESIDENT: There is no point of order.

Debate ResumedTHE HON. F. E. McKENZIE (East

Metropolitan) [9.09 p.m.]: Mr President, I do notwant to join in the debate because I think we haveheard enough already. However, I would like toensure that Mr Pike will table the document fromwhich he quoted.

The Hon. R. G. Pike: It has been tabledalready.

Question put and passed.House adjourned at 9. 10 p.m.

2225

2226 [COUNCIL]

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

TRANSPORT: BUSESLinc

175. 'The Hon. F. E. McKENZIE, to theMinister for Lands representing the Ministerfor Transport:

Further to my question 159 onWednesday, the 22nd August, 1979,would the Minister advise-

(1) Why tenders which involved a totalexpenditure in excess of S2 millionwere not called?

(2) Was the lowest quote obtainedaccepted?

(3) How many quotes for each buswere-

(a) sought;and

(b) received?

(4) Would the Minister advise of thenames of the prospective supplierscontacted and the individual pricessubmitted by each supplier?

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH replied:

(1) There are four possible suppliers ofLinc buses. Each of the busesavailable had different character-istics which were well known to thetrust.One supplier was not interested andthe vehicle of another was notacceptable.

Prices were obtained from theremaining two and the selectionmade.

(2) Yes.

(3) See answer to (1). Prices wereobtained on a per bus basis.

(4) No. This is private informationbetween suppliers and the trust.

LANDCity of Perth Endowment Lands

The PRESIDENT: Before calling on the Hon.John Williams in respect of question 176. Iwish to advise that I have further examinedthe terminology of the question. I amprepared to allow pant (1) of the question tobe asked of the Minister, but I consider thatthe remaining parts seek an expression ofopinion on a question of law and areinadmissible.

'176. The Hon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS, to theMinister for Lands:

(1) is it a fact that interest accruing fromthe City of Perth Endowment Landsfund is being paid into General Revenuefor purposes other than spending in theendowment lands?

(2) If the answer to (1) is "Yes", is thislegal under the City of PerthEndowment Lands Act, 1920-1978?

(3) If the answer to (2) is "Yes", when didParliament sanction the use of thismoney elsewhere by amendment to the.Act, or was it done by the Minister inthe form of regulation?

(4) If the action of the Perth City Councilin directing the interest of this fund isultra vires to the Act, will the Ministerinstruct the council to repay moneysthus misused up to date back to theendowment lands fund?

The Hon. D. .1. WORDSWORTH replied:

(1) The Town Clerk has advised this is so.

TRANSPORT: BUSESLinc

177. The Hon. F. E. McKENZIE, to theMinister for Lands representing the Ministerfor Transport:

Further to my question 162 onWednesday, the 22nd August, 1979,would the Minister explain what ismeant by the term "equipment cost"?

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH replied:

"Equipment cost" means the cost of thebuses.

2226

[Tuesday, 28th August. 1979J122

PARLIAMENT HOUSESalaried Staff

178. The Hon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS, to theLeader of the House:

(1)

(2)

Are all salaried staff at ParliamentHouse members of the Public Service?If not-(a) what Statute does govern their

employment; and(b) are all appointments, promotions.

and other staff matters in theHouse determined by variousstanding committees?

(3) If the answer to (2)(b) is "Yes", to whatform of neutral body can applicants forappointment or promotion appeal?

The Hon. 1. G. Medcalf (for the Hon. 6. C.MacKINNON) replied:(I) No.(2) and (3) These questions concerning the

salaried staff of Parliament Houseshould properly be directed to thepresiding officer.

TRAFFIC ACCIDENTSChildren: Injuries and Deaths

179. The Hon. Lyla ELLIOTT, to the Leader ofthe House representing the Minister forPolice and Traffic:

Further to my questions 128 on the14th August, 1979, and 169 on the 23rdAugust, 1979, concerning the number ofchildren injured or killed as a result ofconflict with motor vehicles, and in viewof the Minister's answer to question169, will he now provide me with thefigures only related to those accidents inwhich the children were pedestrians orcyclists?

The Hon. 1. G. Medcalf (for the Hon. G. C.MacKINNON) replied:

The following Figures represent thoseaccidents in which children wereinvolved as pedestrians or cyclists-

Aged 4 yearsand under

197619771978

Injured4760

Killed45

40 8

Aged 5-16 years197619771978

Aged 5-14 years197619771978

Injured374.352332

Killed71113

CULTURAL AFFAIRSArt Gallery: Employees

I8O. The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON, to theMinister for Lands representing the Ministerfor Cultural Affairs:

Further to the Minister's reply to myquestion 174 of the 23rd August,1979, as I have no further questionsimmediately in mind regarding theemployment of persons at the ArtGallery of Western Australia, and sinceit is assumed that the Minister has nocause to be secretive on this matter, theanswer to question 174 is againrequested?

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH replied:As the honourable member hasindicated he has no further questions inmind regarding staffing arrangements atthe Art Gallery of Western Australia, aconsolidated reply will now be preparedand forwarded to him bycorrespondence.

QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICETRANSPORT: BUSES

Linc

The Hon. F. E. McKENZIE, to the Ministerfor Lands representing the Minister forTransport:

(1) I draw the attention of the Minister topart (4) of question 175. 1 asked theMinister to advise the names ofprospective suppliers contacted, and theprices submitted by each supplier. If it isnot competent for the Minister to adviseme of the prices, surely he can advise methe names of the suppliers?

(2) If the Minister cannot advise the names,why not?

2227

2228 [COUNCIL]

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH replied:(1) and (2) 1 have no notice of the question

and, indeed, I have not a copy of theanswer to the previous question. If themember wishes to place the question onthe notice paper I will endeavour to

obtain a reply for him. I think the replyI gave to his question on notice is fairlyself-explanatory. It did state there werefour manufacturers, and that two werenot suitable.