AnthrolactologyPodcastSeason1Episode4–TheCOVID-19SpecialEdition

July23,2020Summary:InthisepisodeofAnthrolactology,theteamdiscusseslactationandhumanmilkinthecontextoftheCOVID-19pandemic.TheepisodewasrecordedinlateMay2020.EAtalksabouttheteam’songoingCOVID-19feedingstudy,AunchaleetalksaboutherongoingleadershipworkinCOVID19feedingrecommendations,andCeciliadiscussestheimportanthistoricalframeworkforunderstandingresponseswithinfeedingframeworks.Attheendofthetranscriptyou’llfindlinkstoblogpostsandotherresourcesmentionedinthepodcast!Ourpronouns:EA(she/her/hers);Cecilia(she/her/hers);Aunchalee(she/her/hers) Transcript [Music]ThisisAnthrolactology,apodcastaboutbreastfeeding,science,and

society

EA: Alright.Wearelive.Welcome,everyone,toaspecialeditionofAnthrolactology.Whoknowswhatmonthitisanymore!AnthrolactologypandemiceditionwithyourhostEA,AunchaleePalmquistandCecilia.IforgotmyownLastname.

Cecilia: Andthat'swhereweare.

EA: Sowelcome,everyone.Weareveryexcitedtoallbeheretoday,havingaconversationaboutanthropologicalperspectivesonlactationduringtheCOVID-19pandemic.Andthisissomethingthat,whilenoneofusstartedoutasCOVIDresearchers,ithascertainlybeengatheringsomeofourattention.And,Ithinkit'sreallybeenpartofthelargerconversationandawareness,bothintheanthropologicalaswellasthelactationworld.

Aunchalee: Yeah,soIthinktherearealotofunansweredquestions,alotofcontroversiesaboutdifferentguidanceandwhatfolksaretodo;andparentshavelotsofquestionsaboutwhotolistento?Whatkindofquestionstoask?Andwhattodo?So,Ithinkit'slikeagreatopportunityforustojustchataboutourperspectivesandkindofwhatwe'redoingandwhatwe'reseeing.Andreallyputtingthatanthropologicalframingonit.Andso,IguessIwantedtojustbeforewegetstartedwithtalkingaboutCOVID-19tosee,youknow,howareyoualldoingthisweek?WearecollectivelyinSt.LouisandBaltimoreandElonsokindofallover.Howareyou,youknow?Allofusareparentingandworking.Howareyoudoing,Cecilia?

Cecilia: I'm,I'mstillalive.Thatisreallygood,andyes,Istartedanewjob.Sothat'sreallyexciting,butalsoverybusy.Andyes,I'malsoparentingandtryingtoworkatthesametime.Andso,it'saIwouldsayit'sfairlychaoticbutIamthankfulthatweareallhealthy.Ithinkthatthat'ssortofreally-youknowitsharpensyourfocusonyourpriorities.I'mverythankfulthatallofusarehometogether.And,youknow,realizingwhataprivilegeitistobeabletodothatatallandtobeableto,youknow,havefoodandshelterandhaveajob.Imean,thesearejust,they'rehuge.AndsoIthinkaboutthatalot.

Aunchalee: Andyeah,EAI'vebeenthinkingaboutyoualottoo,havingsuchalittleoneathomeandalsobreastfeedingandkindoftakingcareofyourlittleone.Sohowhaveyoubeencopingandsortofwhatarethethingsyouallarethinkingabout?

EA: WecamebackMondayandallthisunfoldedstartingThursdayofthatweek.Youcouldalreadykindofstarttoseeandfeelitintheairport.We'vebeenhomesincethen.Hedoesn'tsleep.He'sgottenfiveteethsincethepandemicstartedsohehas7teeth,learnedtocrawl,topullupandhe'sjusttotallymobile.So,somyhusband'sanessentialworkersoIdon'tgetalotofsleep.Idon'tgetalotofworkdone.Youknow,Ithinkwe,weprobablyallmisstheteachersinourlives.

Aunchalee: Yes!

EA: We'rehanginginthere.WearemanagingonyouknowI'mreallythankfulasCeciliawassayingthat,youknow,we're,webothstillhaveourjobsandI'vebeenabletobeprettymuchfulltimewithhimwhilestillworkingonsomeofourprojectsandmycollaboratorshave,Imeanwe'vesubmitted

twograntsandmycollaboratorsdonetheheavyliftingonthoseandbeeninconstantcontactwiththecommunitiesweworkwithinNepal.

Aunchalee: Whataretheydoingthere?

EA: CommunityActionNepal(CAN)thatrunsthehealthclinicsistrainingthenursesonpersonalprotectiveequipment,they'resettingupquarantinerooms.Oneofthethingsthatyoudoisyourituallysealthevillage.soundsanawfullotlikestayathomeifyouaskme.YouallknowIthinksohighlyoftheCANnursesandthecommunityhealthworkersandjustseeinghowmuchthey'redoingandlearningandputtingintoplaceisphenomenal.Anditshowswhatfantasticnurses,theyare.

Aunchalee: That'sgreat.Yeah.

EA: Sohowareyoudoing?

Aunchalee: I'mreallytired.That'smystandardanswernow,I'mjustgonna,like,ownuptoit.I'mexhausted.Busyyeahreallybusy.Wehavethreechildrenschoolagesothatis-wespend,myspouseandI-spendagoodtimekindoftryingtojugglekeepingontopofthat.It'sreallydifficult.Andwearekindof-Ithinkinitiallyweweretryingtolikekeepontrack,andbeincommunicationandlearnalltheapps.Andnowwe’rejustlike,“okay,youdowhatyouwanttodoandallright?Like,goplaytherestoftheday!”It'sareallyalot.Soyes,weneedtopayteachersmoreandteachersareamazingandIcouldnotdowhattheydo.SoIwentfromhaving,youknow,myonebasicjobteachingandbeingsortofthisacademicpersonandnowIamhomeschoolteacherandleadingabunchofstuffrelatedtotheCOVID19response.So,Ifeelmylikemyworkhasexpandedsortofexponentially.Andit'sgood.Andit'sexhausting.Butwe'rehangingintherelikelikey'allsaid.Thatis,it'smyreality,butit'salsolikewehavejobsandourkidsarehealthyandtheyhaveeachother.Wehaveplaceforthemtoplaytogetherandtheyseemtobecopingalright.So,allthingsconsideredgood.ButI'vebeentryingtolikepayalotmoreattentiontomysleephygieneandjustmakingsurelikeIhavewhatIneedtohelpmybraintoworktodoallthisstuffthatwe'rebeingaskedtodo.So,Ithinkoneofyouknowoneofthethingswetalkedaboutismaybetryingtofocusonsomeoftheworkthatwe'reseeingsomeoftheresearchandadvocacyaroundCOVID-19andinfantfeeding,andsomeofthewaysinwhichwearebeingcalledupontoprovidedifferentkindsofperspectivesonintofeedingrecommendations,thesciencethat'sbeinggeneratedandsomeofthequestionsthatweallarethethreeofus.And

I'msureotherswhoareinthisspacearealsofieldingrelatedtoCOVID-19andinfantfeeding.So,Ithinkfirst,itwouldbereallycooltomaybetalkabouttheinfantfeedingsurveythatwesortofrapidlyputtogetherandmaybesomepreliminaryinsightsonwhatwe'reseeing.

EA: BasicallybackinlateMarch,welaunchedtheinfantfeedingandCOVID-19study,andthiswasreallypredicatedonmyobservationthatinmanyoftheonlinebreastfeedingcommunitiesthatIbelongtotherewassuddenlyalotofconcernaboutrelactation,delayingweaningorgettingformula,dependingonhowawomanwasfeedingherkidbecauseallofasuddenyoucouldn'tgetformulaandtherewas,Iwouldsayalmostovernightdramaticincreaseinconversationsabouttheimmunologicalpropertiesofbreastmilk.Itwasabigmomentwhereforalotofpeopletheirbehaviorswerechangingandwhataboutthreeorfourdayswewereabletogetthesurveylaunchedandwearewrappingupdatacollection.Wehadalmost1800womenparticipate.ThatwasitwasrestrictedtotheUStheretheinternationalstudyisstillgoing.However,IknowagroupintheUKhasalsolaunchedaninternationalstudyandThey'reprobablydoingabetterjobofgettingattheUKissuesthanweare.

Aunchalee: Yeah.

EA: Wehadall50statesandGuamrepresented.Itdoeshavesometypicalbiasesofonlinestudies,ittendstobeverybiasedtowardswhitewomen.About90%ofthesampleiswhitewomen.Theincomevariableisquitediverse.Andwealsohadalargesubsetofhealthcareworkers

Aunchalee: Canyoudescribewhatweresomeofthequestionsinthesurvey?

EA: Sure.Thanks.So,whatwewerereallyhopingtogetatwiththesurveyishowisCOVID19impactinginfantfeedingdecisions.Sonotjustbreastfeeding,butalsowhenyouweregoingtointroducesupplementalfoods,whenyouweregoingtototallyweanandifyou'reaformulafeedingmotherorparenthowyouraccesstoformulawaschangingorhowyouperceiveyouraccesstoformulachanging.Andwhatwerethesourcesofinformation,peopleweregetting.Andthenweofcourseaddedinsomeofourfavorites.Iwasinterestedinsomeofthehealthcareworkers’responses.Weaddedinquestionsoninfant’ssleepandbehavioralchangesrelatedtosleeptimingandthechangingofwhenbreastfeedingcessationwouldstop.Andmilksharing.IfindividualswereactivelyseekingCOVIDmilkorweremakingchangesintheirmostsharingbehaviorbecauseofconcernsaboutCOVID-19.

Aunchalee: So,wehavelikeasubsetoftheinitialrespondents,whohaveagreedtoprovideliketheiremail,theycanreceiveafollowupsurveythatisabouteightweeksfromthetimethattheyinitiallytookit.So,wecandosome

comparisons.Gatheringsomeofthisinformationaboutwhat'shappeningandtheimpactmakesitdifficult,soasurveyisagoodtool,butlike,asyoumentioned,itdoeshavesomelimitationsregardinglikewhohasthetimeandtheaccesstotechnologyandinformationtobeabletokindofparticipate.Soevenwithinthoseconstraints,Ithinkit'llbeagood-there'ssolittledatapublishedinthepeer-reviewedliteratureonhowdifferentkindsofemergencies,youknow,population-baseddataandoftenit'sreallyverygenerallike:Breastfeeding?yesorno,kindofdata.So,Ithinkthissurveyisgoingtomakeareallyimportantcontributiontosortofhowwe'rethinkingabouttheeffectsofdifferentkindsofemergencies,andhowthey'reshapingperceptionsofriskandinsecuritiesaroundinfantfeedingandthingsthatincontext.

Cecilia: Allthreeofushavebeenwatchingsomeoftheconversationsthatarehappening.And,fieldingquestions,butalsolisteningtopeople'sexperienceandjusttryingtosupportpeople,astheyarekindofnavigatingthesescenarios.AndIthinkoneofthepointsthatyoujustmadeissoimportantthatthewayinwhichtheliteratureisconstructed.Wetalkedaboutthisbefore,butIthinkit's,oneofthoseongoingthemesthatwehaveonthepodcastandintheliteraturethatthereisasortofsplitbetweensocalledwealthysettingsand,theideathatthosesettingsaresomehowlikeaboveforcesthatcanmakepeoplevulnerablewhen,infact,thosesettingsareriddledwithinequalities,andpeoplehavebeenexperiencingterribleconditionsallalong.Andthenwekindofpretendthattheseissues,don'treallymatterinthose,youknow,wealthysettingsandisdrivenbynarrativesofprivilege.AndIthinkasthepandemicaspeoplestartedrealizingreallythescopeofwhat'sreallygoingonhere,whichissomuchworsethanIthinkinitially.Alotofpeopleanticipated.It'sallofasuddenreconfiguringthatconversation.Andmakingitmuchbroaderthanitwasbefore.AndIthinkthat'swheresortofthelargercomparativeperspectivethatanthropologyhasissousefulbecausewedon'tyouknowwedon'treallyfollowthatsortofexceptionalistnarrative.Wealwaysdeconstructit.

Aunchalee: Iamaco-authorwithyouandanotherteamoffolks,lookingatthisissueofseparationandIwouldlovetohearwhatwehavetosayaboutseparation.Butreallyalso,howlikeyourbackgroundandthinkingaboutbreastfeedingandsleepandsomeoftheseotheryouknowtheproductionofknowledgearoundinfantcarehasinformedthewaythatyousortofapproachthisstatementaboutseparation?

Cecilia: Itwasdefinitelyverymuchacollaborativeeffort,Ithink,drivenbyallofusbeingsortofhorrified.Ithinkallofusanticipatedthatguidancefromdifferentsettingswouldlookverydifferentinresponsetothepandemic.

ThereisalongtraditionandI'vewrittenaboutsomeofthoseissues,bothintermsofsleep.AndintermsofHIVintheUSaboutsortofmakingupguidance,that'sreallyquitedifferentfrommanyothersettingskindofsettingapart,youknow,thisideathattheUSguidanceisdifferentandsomehowmaybesuperiortoothersettings,eveniftheevidencedoesn'tnecessarilysupportthat.Sothere'satraditionofthatandsortofmybackgroundandthatisaboutthehistorythatItalkedaboutwhenyouknowwhenyouinterviewedme.It'sreallyaboutthesehistoriesoffragmentationofdifferentkindsofbodilyprocesses.Theideathatbreastfeedingisnotsomethingthat'sactuallyreallyimportantAnd,youknow,thatissortofthissortofextraThisthingthatyouknowisatthispointacceptedtobesomethingpositive,whereasyouknowinthepastthatwasquestionable.Ithinkmostpeople,there'sbeenaculturalchangearoundthat.Butthere'sstillthesensethatit'snotreallythatimportant.Andthatitdoesn'treallyconfervaluesuchasthingslikesurvival.

EA: AndIthinkwe'veseenpartofthisandImeanIthinkthisalsotiesinwithalotoflargercontextualissuesaboutjustthewayinwhichbirthsandlactationhavebeenchallengedthroughCOVID19.Imean,thereweredayswhereImeanlike,remembertheNewYorkhospitalsbanningpartnersorcoachesasacoupleofhospitalsthathavestillbanneddoulas.

Aunchalee: Yeah,somaybeweshouldbackupasecondandjusttalkabouttheWHOguidanceandthenthisotherguidanceandsomeofthetensionsthereandthenmaybethatcouldbeliketheleadintothisstatementaboutseparation.Maybethatwouldbehelpfulforcontext.

Cecilia: That'sagreatidea.Ithinkon.YoushouldtalkabouttheWHOguidance.

Aunchalee: Sure.So,theWHOguidanceforthecareofinfantsintheimmediatepostpartumperiodreallyisdrawnfromthebestsciencethatisavailable.Andobviously,becauseit'sanemerginginfectiousdiseasewedon'thaverandomizedcontroltrials,necessarily,alotofthesciencesperspectiveorcasestudiesclinicalcasestudies.Whoiscomingatthiskindofthinkingabouttherisktobenefit.Balanceintermsofpossibletransmissionfromthepregnantpersontotheirinfants.Andsobreastfeedingaspartofthatisinthisimmediatepostpartumperiod,youknow,whatdowedotoensurethebestoutcomefortheinfantdndbasedonwhatweknowabouttransmission,trytomitigatetransmissionwhilepreservingthatrelationship.Andsobreastfeeding,theWHOapproachesbreastfeedingasessential,integral,veryimportanttothehealthofnewbornstothehealthofthebreastfeedingparent.Andtheguidancereallyissortofcenteredonthat

theyalsointegratethesethingslikehealthandhumanrights.So,therecommendationsforintrapartumcarehavingsupportduringlaboranddeliveryhavebeenaround,youknow,beinginformedandmakinginformeddecisionsaboutdifferentkindsofproceduresthatwillhappen.AndinthecasethatabirthingparentandtheirinfantareotherwisewellinthecontextforCOVIDiseithersuspectedorconfirmedtherecommendationsaretokeepthemtogether.Practicerespiratoryandhandhygiene,skin-to-skinimmediatelypostpartum,iftheyhavetobeseparatedorforsomereason-Imean,therearelotsof,youknow,allthesamereasonswhyabirthingindividualandtheirinfantmightbeseparatedimmediatelyafterbirth,holdtrueinthisCOVID19pandemic.So,theremaybecaseswheretherearemedicalreasonsforseparationandthosecases,theyareveryclearaboutthatthebirthingindividualneedstohavementalhealthandpsychosocialsupportcontinuityoflactationsupporttheopportunitytonursetheirbaby.Ifthebaby'swellenough,orthey'rewellenough,providingexpressedhumanmilkfeedingsorpasteurizeddonormilk.Sothatislikethewholepackageandinasense,it'saveryholisticorientationtothecare,beingattentivetoaddressissuesaroundinfectionpreventionandcontrolforthisparticularvirus.AndsotheotherguidancethathasalotofglobalinfluencehappenstocomefromtheUnitedStates.

Cecilia: Right.Andso,thisiswhereIthinkyouroriginalquestionabouthowdoes,youknow,howdoestheirbackgroundaboutanthropologyreallymattersthattheguidancedoesn'tcomefromsortofneutralterritoryinscience.It’snotexemptfromculturalideologies,andsotheyarereallyreflectedandhowtheUSguidancehasplayedouttheinitialguidancefromtheCDChadsomechallenginglanguagethatmanypeoplefoundconfusingandattimes,sortofcontradictory.Andsoatandinsomeplacesitemphasized,theimportanceofbreastfeeding.Butatthesametime,italsostatedthattheideaofseparationmothersandinfantsfromoneanother,shouldbeconsidered.Andtherewasapieceaboutshareddecisionmakinginthere,butitwassortofoverlookedbymostofthepeoplewhowereinterpretingtheguidance.Andso,whatwesawunfoldingisvariouspeoplehospitalsleadership.KindoftryingtomakepolicyallaroundthecountrybasedontheirinterpretationoftheCDCguidance,whichmostinterpretedthatreallyitshouldbeautomaticseparation.Thiswasnotaterriblysurprisingthingbasedonwhatweknewaboutculturalideologiesandtheperceptionthatmothers-weactuallytalkedaboutthis,EAactuallyhadthisgreatlineaboutinapreviouspodcast-abouthowthere'sthiswholeideologyofmotherspresentingariskto

theirbabieswheretheonlythingthatwasbeingreallyconsideredasmothersbeposingariskoftheirbabies,buttheywerenotreallylookingveryholistically,likethewhoguidanceabout,whatotherthingsdomothersprovidethatmightactuallyberelevant,includingofcoursealltheproximitythat'sinvolvedinbreastfeeding.Andoneofthethingsthatwetalkedaboutbeforeisthatbreastfeedingisthisveryneatadaptationthatisbothreliantonproximity,butalsofacilitatesandensuresthatproximitythatinfantshumaninfantsneed.Andso,thatwholerelationshipaboutproximitywasnotreallyfullyconsiderednorwastheimplicationofthedisruptionsthatwouldhappentobreastfeedingoncetheseparationwasimplemented.So,theideawasthatyouwouldstillbeabletosomehowbreastfeed.Butreally,therewasnomechanisminthereforhowtosupportbreastfeeding,anditwasveryunclearhowallofthiswouldbeimplementedlogistically.Andthatpromptedustocometogetherandwriteoutinfurtherdetail.Youknowwhatexactlyaretheseimplications?We'vetriedtofocusitparticularlyonbreastfeeding.Andoneoftheinterestingaspectswasreallynotthinkingaboutthefactthatwehaveasituationwherewehavereallynoeffectivetreatmenthere.Wedon'thaveavaccineandwe'renotreallythinkingaboutwhatabouttheprocessofbreastfeeding,andtheimmunologicalrelationshipbetweenthemotherandtheinfant.Thatisisbeingoverlooked.Andwhataboutallthephysiologicalinterconnectionsthathappenthatmakebreastfeedingfeasible?Theseareprocessesthatweknowaboutbecausetheyweredisruptedbeforeyouknowinallthosehistoricalprocessesthatwetalkedaboutinthepreviousepisode-aboutwhenchildbirthgotmedicalizedandmovedtothehospitalandessentiallymothersandbabieswereseparated.Sothat'swherealotofthosefindingscomefromaboutwhattheimplicationsinthecontextofawholeseriesoftheliteraturethatwetalkedaboutintermsofcolonization,wherebasicallywehaveforcedremovalofinfantsfromtheirfamiliesandsystematicstructuralviolenceandculturalotherformsofviolencethatthiswholeideaofseparationcancomeup.Sothere'sjustnumeroushuge,enormousconsequencesofthiskindofguidanceandthespecialthingabouttheCDCintheUSisthatit'snotonlytheUSthatultimatelyhasthatbearstheconsequences.So,it'sthesekindsofprocessesanddisruptionsdonotstaywithintheUS,evenifthey'remeantfortheus.Theyactuallyhaveaninfluenceelsewhere.

Andso,westartedseeingsomeoftheInfluenceoftheguidanceelsewhere,whereallofasudden,youknow,separationandpoliciesarepoppingupeventhoughtheWHOhasremainedcompletelyconsistent.

Aunchalee: Okay,thenyouactuallyneedtohave,you'regoingtodothisseparationandisolation,alloftheotherthingsyouneedtoalsoadvocateforinthatrecommendationwhichisskilledlactationsupport,doulasupport,mentalhealthandpsychosocialsupport-allthosethings,thattheWHOalsorecommendstosupport,youknow,thedyad(thebirthingparentandinfant)inthattimeandthattheneglectofthatpieceofthecarepackagethatthat'swrappedupinthatrecommendation-thatabsenceofthat-speaksvolumesabouthowlactationandhumanmilkareactuallyvaluedbythepeopleputtingouttheserecommendations.

Cecilia: Ornotvalued.Right.Andwe'reseeingthattoo.Imean,I'mwe'reseeing,youknow,examplesoftheindustrysteppinginandyouknowessentiallymarketingvariousproductsandalsosortofadvocatingpseudomedicaladvice.Thisisanoldstrategythatwe'veseen,ofcourse,thatwe'vewrittenaboutinourbook,youknowabouthowimportantthissortofmedicalgivingadvertisement,sortofmedicalcredibilityisoneofthekeystrategiesthattheyuseinthepasttounderminebreastfeeding.So,it'snosurprisethatit'sbackwithavengeance,youknow,duringthispandemic.Imean,they'reusingthepandemicasaasamarketingopportunitywhichisjustterrible.

Aunchalee: Ijustwantyoutoalsoknowthatthatthemarketingopportunityisnotthesamethingasensuringthatfamilieswhoneedtohaveaccesstoformulahaveaccesstoit.Twodifferentthingsthere.Yes,they'regoingtobealwaysfamilieswhoaregoingtoneedtouseformulatofeedinfants.Whetherbyamedicalindication,orjustachoice;thatisseparatefromthemarketingtacticsandthewaysthatindustryworksinconcertwithscientistsandmedicalexpertstoinfluencethekindsofdecisionsthatpeoplemake.Soeverythingwehave,likeguidance,right,wehavethesedifferentkindofbigorganizationsputtingoutguidance,butthenthewaythatitactually-likewhenyoulookonthegroundatwhatishappening,sometimesit'salignedwithdifferentguidanceandsometimesit'snot.That'stheotherthing.It’sliketherearetherepracticesbeingputintoplaceandhealthcarefacilitiesthatarenotatallbasedineithertheguidanceorthescience.

Cecilia: AndIthinkyounailedit.Ithinkthatthetwocompetingnarratives.Youknow,theonethat'ssortofidealizingmilk,butalsomotherhoodandthenmothersassortofriskyanddangerousandmilkispolluting.Imean,those,thosenarrativesaregettingcirculated,andyouknowIthinkformeit'sjustlikeit'shumbling.Becauseeventhoughwestudyculturalideologies,it'slikeIwrittenyouknowsomuchaboutthisandit'sstillhumblingtowatchitplayoutonsuchagrandscale,includingofcourseinallthemedicalguidance.Wherethosebeliefsalreadyexist.That'swhatmakesiteasierforthemtotravelinparticularways.That'swhyitwasnotunexpectedthattheUSguidance.Culturalideologiestravelandtheytravel,youknow,acrosstheroutesthatbecamewhatitwas,butit'sstillmeantthatwehadtosay,wherearethelessons?Like,didwelearnanylessonsherefrompreviousguidelines?Whyarewenotlearningtheselessonsabout,amorenuancedmoreholisticway,likeAunsaid,thattheWHOcaptures?Likewhyarewenotthinkingabouttheimportanceofmotherchildcontact?Whyarewenotthinkingabout,themorecomplexroleofbreastfeedingandhumanmilk?Imeanthosequestions.WethoughtthattherewasaglimmerwhenyouknowwhentheCDCkindofchangedtheirguidanceandstartedrefocusingandre-emphasizetheimportanceofbreastfeeding.Wewerelike,“Ohmygoodness.It'samiracle!”Andthentheytalkedabouttheimportanceofshareddecisionmaking.Andthenwegottheupdate,justacoupleofdaysagothatonceagain“stronglyconsidersseparation”andthebreastfeedingguidanceiscompletelysplitapartfromthat.So,it'sjustunclearhowyou'resupposedtonavigatethelandscapewhereseparationisbecomingreallythemainrecommendation.Onthenationallevel,soitmakesitverydifficultforpeopletoactdifferently.EvenifyouknowthatthereareotherwaysandothernationshavegonedownmuchclosertothepathoftheWHO.

Aunchalee: Imean,that'sall,that'sthereallyinterestingthing,becauseifyoutalktosomefolkswhoaresupportiveofthismorestringentCDC/AAPguidanceandoptingtoimplementsostringentseparationroutines,therationaleiswell,theUnitedStatesisauniquecontext.Wehave,youknow,thecapacityandthematerialstobeabletoisolate,youknow,isolateboththebirthingparentandtheirinfantandafterbirth;theyhavetheirownteams,thePPE,thespacetodothis.Thisallowsthemtodoit.Andyet,inothercountrieslikeAustraliaandGermany,otherplaceswherethere.Theyhavethesamekindsofresourcesandstructures,

they'renotdoingthat.Andthey'restillhaving,youknow,theystillareabletohavegoodoutcomesandstillabletomaintaintheiralignmentwiththeWHOrecommendations.So,yeah,it'sinteresting,andalsohorrific.Tohearthestoriesandkindofseetheconsequencesofthoserecommendations,particularlyinlightofthefactthatitseemslikemanyhealthcareprovidersandthehealthcarefacilitiesgettheseparationpiece;andyetalloftheothersupportiveaspects,alloftheotherthingsthathavetobeinplacetothenpickupthosepiecestomaintainthehealthandwellbeingofthebirthingparentandtheinfantinthatcontextarejustcompletelyerasedfromtheguidance.Andthere’snotreallyanyadvocacyforhowtoinvestinthatsupport,andadvocacytosaylike,“ifyoudothis,thenyoualsohavetomakesurethesepiecesareinplace,andyouneedtoscaleupthesupportandmakesurethatyouhavetheskilledlaborandbirthsupport,theskilledlactationsupport,andmaintainthatcontinuityfromdischargetocommunityandmakesurethatalloftheirpatientshaveaccesstothetechnologyandthedevicesandeverythingyouneedtoaccesstelehhealthservicesandtodothesefollowups.

Cecilia: So,it'ssortof,youknow,there'sfragmentsofthelanguage.Andwhentheydouseit,it’sintwodifferentplaces,whichIthought,youknow,wasliketheclassicillustrationofthefragmentation-pieceslikehereisoneboxandthenyouknowbreastfeedingisthisotherbox.

Aunchalee: Apparently,yeah.Imean,initiallyyouhadthatimmediatepostpartumguidanceinoneplace,youknow,forwithinthefacilityandthenyouhadallthebreastfeedingstuffinaseparateplace.Theydidn'tmatchatall.Right.Andthere'seveninternalconsistencieswithinthisupdatedguidancetoforregardinglikehowdoyoutest,andifyoucan'ttest,youjustassumethatthebaby'saPUI.

Cecilia: Thisisagoodtimeforyoutotalkalittlebitaboutwhatyourrolehasbeenintermsoftheadvocacypieceandthenwedefinitelywanttotalkaboutsomeofthescientificissuesaboutsomeoftheassumptionsthatthey'remakingintermsofimmunologyandmilk.

Aunchalee: EA,inalotofthesediscussions,it’sreallycomingdowntothedegreetowhichwethinkthevirusmaybepassedthroughmilkthroughhumanmilk.So,whatcanyoutellusaboutthestateofthatthatscienceandSortofwhatyouknowwherewegofromhere?

EA: Imean,rightnow-andagain,youknow,thethingwe'reconsistentlyseeingwithcompanies,everythingisrightnowbecausethedataaresonew-rightnow,thedataareprettyconsistentthattheycandetectviralRNA,butnoactualvirusinmilk.Andso,itdoesn'tlooklikeit'stransmittedbymilk.

Aunchalee: Canyouexplainthedifferencebetweenbeingabletodetectfragmentsof

viralRNAandhumanmilkversusactivevirusordiseasecausingvirusinmilk?

EA: Apologies,ifwebutchertheauthor'snames!Grosetal.didreportfindingviralRNA.MykindofimmediatereadwhenIreadthispaperwas,Iwonderifthemotherhadmastitisthatmightbecontributing?Becauseweknowwithmastitisyougetincreasedleakleakageintomilkbecausethecellsinthemammaryglandpullapart,itcangetkindofleakyandthat'samassiveoversimplificationofaverycomplicatedbiologicalrelationship,Butyoucangetstuffinthemilkyouwouldn'tnormally,itwouldbesomethinglikethat.So,theredoesn'tseemtobealotofevidence.Iknowacoupleofgroupsaretryingtostudythis.Butrightnow,there'snoevidenceforlikemilkbornetransmission.Ithinkthat'swherekindofthescienceisrightnow-it’sstrugglingwithhowdoyouactuallydemonstratethis,um,andhow,howdoyouactuallygetatthat?Imeanthethetransmissiontheobservationaldatafortransmissionmothertoinfantisn'tthere.

Aunchalee: AndIwouldthinkit'slikesuperdifficultlikewithotherrespiratoryinfections,right?Becauseit'srespiratory,it'sreallyhardtoruleoutthefactthatpossiblemodeoftransmission,giventheproximityofeither,youknow,feedingatbreastorchestversusexpressingbreastmilk.

EA: Iwasthinkingaboutthistheotherday,becauseyouknowI'mnursing,andmykidishishandinmymouth.I'mlike,well,whatdoesitmatterifitisthemilk?He'sgothishandinmymouth!

Aunchalee: Yeahright.

EA: Youknow,Ithinkitkindofgetsthatthatthatmorecomplicatedpicturethatweweretalkingaboutinthiskindoffetishizinghumanmilkassomethingdiscreetfromlactation.Youknow,arewomenarisktotheirmilk?Oristhereactualinfectiouspotentialfrommilk?Andnobody'sreallydemonstratedthat,butwe'veseen,youknow,youwereinvolvedinsomeofthekindofpublicawarenessandpushbackaboutthis,aboutlikehowareyouputtingitonthecontainers,onthepump?Right,thehandlinginstructionsthatwerecomingoutforhandlingmilkinthehospital.Imean,Ithinkit'sjustsocomplicated.

Andthere'ssomereallyinterestingstudiesgoingonnowlookingfor,youknow,actualtransmissiblevirusinmilk.Ithinkthedatarightnowaren'tthereandit,itmaychange.Iwillpersonallybesurprisedifitchanges,butImeanmostofmyworksaboutmetabolismormetabolicadipokinesinmilk,notasmuch,theimmunologyofmilkbutIthink…

Aunchalee: But,youknow,eveninthecaseofHIV/AIDS,forexample,whereweknowthatthere'sthevirusthatcanbetransmittedthrougheitherbreastfeedingorexpressedhumanmilk,therecommendationsremainthatinmostplace,wheretheriskbenefitratioissomuchinfavorofcontinuingtobreastfeed,exclusivelybreastfeedforthefirstsixmonths,becauseofthelowriskyouhave.It'snotjustthatthereisvirusinthemilk.There'sallthisotherstuffhappening.

EA: HAMLET!

Aunchalee: Right.Thathelpstokeepthoseratesoftransmissionlow,lowerthanifyou'remixedfeeding,andthenthemortalityratesarelower.Whenyou'reexclusivelybreastfeeding,eveninthecontextofHIVinfectioninplaceswherethereisn'tcleanwater,andthere'snotenoughformula,andbabiesdiefarsoonerfrom,youknow,unhygenicformulafeeding,Imean,Ithinktherearegoodlessonstolearnabout,like,Imeanit’sofwhattheMCNpaperconcludes,andkindofwahtCeciliawasemphasizing-thattheevidencehasshouldbesocompellingtosaylike,yes,reallywecan'tsupportthis,right

EA: Andtheevidenceisnotthatcompellingrightnow.

Aunchalee: AndIthinkalmostininveryfewcircumstancesisit.

Cecilia: There'ssomanyassumptions.We'reaskingwhatthreatthemilkposes.Butwe'renotreallyasking,arethereotherthingsthatthemilkdoesthatmightactuallyprovideabenefitforthatinfantIthinkthatquestionissimplynotevenreallybeingasked.Weknowthattherearestudiesthatareactuallyinvestigatingantibodiesinthemilkbecausemilkhas,youknow,alltheseamazingproperties,someofwhichwedon'tevenknow.HowtheyexactlyworktherewaslikeabrandnewstudyinNatureabout,youknow,thewaysinwhichbreastfeedingoperatesinrelationtovirusesinthegut.Whatweknowisthatoneofthekeyaspectsofbreastfeedingasanadaptationhastodowithinfectiousdisease,andyetwe'renotreallytalkingaboutthat.Ithoughtthatwasprettyshocking,andthenyouknowtheotheronewehaven'tquitetouchedonyet.ButIthinkit'simportant,is

thatallyouknowinlinewiththoseculturalexpectationsthatwetalkedaboutwherethemotheristheonlysoulpotentialsourceofharm.There'snotaconsiderationforwhereelsethebabymightbeexposed.Right,solikewhentheyweremakingtheserecommendations,wehadallthesepeopleallthesehealthcareworkerswhodidn'thave,PPE,hadnoaccesstotestingandhavehugeexposurestothevirusandtheywouldbetheoneshandlingthebaby.Likemany,manymoretimesbecausethebabiesbeingtakenawayfromtheparent.thatpartwasn'treallymappedouteither.Sotheideaofthebaby,youknow,onceit'sremovedfromitsmotherisallofasuddeninlikeacompletebubble,wheretheviruswillnotcometothemandthatyouknowoncetheygetdischargedwillnotcometothem,it'sjustthat's,that'saveryinterestingculturalassumption.Ithinkthat'scomingintotheguidance.ThatI'mstilltryingtoprocess.So,there'sjusttheassumptionsherearewideranging,andwehavealotofworktodotohaveamoreintegratedperspective.AndIthinkbringinginananthropologicalperspectiveintothatisnotaneasytask.

EA: Well,andinsomeways,Ithinkalotofwhatwe'retalkingabout,reallygetsbacktothepoint,Aunchaleeyoumademuchearlierinourdiscussion.Andthatis,thatImeansomuchofthisisreallyillustratingproblemsthatwerealreadyincrediblyprevalentinsociety,particularlythingslikehealthdisparitiesandlonghistoriesofstructuralinequalities.Andthatthoseare,aresimplybeingamplified.

Aunchalee: Theserecommendationsandpracticesthatarebeingimplemented,particularlytheonesthatarereallylookingatseparationasawaytomanageinfectionpreventionandcontrolwithinhealthcarefacilities,disproportionatelyaffectsBlackandIndigenousandfamiliesofcolor,inthecontextofacountrywherewehaveamassivecriticalmaternalandinfantmortalitycrisisinthesecommunities.So,whenwehavetheseyouknowconversationsaboutthenegativeimpacts.they'renotbeingifthey'renotbeingexperiencedthesamewayacrossallcommunities.Andthat'sanotherreallyfundamentalthingtorealize,isthatwhoisbearingtheburdenoftheoutthefalloutandthenegativeconsequences?Andthatisdefinitely-thatperspective,thatracialequityperspective,thatmorehistoricalperspective,theperspectiveofsystemicracisminthesystemsthatcomeupwithguidance,likenoneofthatiscominginto..youdon'thearanyofthatanyoftheguidancethat'scomingoutinourcountry,whichisaproblem.Andthereareorganizationsandadvocates

whoarereallysheddinglightonthatandtryto,youknow,continuingtoemphasizethatweneedtoapproach,allofthiswithaclearracialequitylens.Buttheguidanceassumesthateverybodyis,“thesame,”right?Andnotthinkingaboutalltheseunintendedconsequencesthatwillbefeltindifferentlyindifferentcommunities.Imean,eventhethingaboutshareddecisionmaking.Thisisaconversationwe'vehadseveraltimes.Like,assumingthatit’s,firstofallputtingaverylargeburdenonpeoplewhoarelaboringandbirthingtobeabletoadvocateforthemselvesinaplacewheretheyreallyaredisempowered,andfarmoresoifyouareapersonofcolor,youknow,alreadyhavingtodealwiththeracismthatisofteninplay.Withinthesefacilitiesandinthissortofbeingtaskedwith,“oh,I'mgoingtohavetoadvocateformyselfnow.And,youknow,nottobetreatedwithproviderswhohavebiasagainstme.Andalso,Idon'twanttobeseparatedfrommybaby.”Likethatis,youknow,weknowitwillhappen.Therearegoingtobesomepeople,somepatientsandbirthingindividualswhohavemoreagencyandmoreaudienceandareabletoadvocatemoreeffectivelythanothersforthethingsthattheywantandotherswillbeignored.Justliketheywerebeforethepandemic,soit's…

Cecilia: Alreadycomingin.Imean,thewholeyouknowthevulnerabilitiesinastartallthewaybackfromwhohastheprivilegesofbecomingWho,whohasaprivilegetostayathome.Whoarethepeoplewhoarenotdeemed,youknow,essential.Whoarethepeoplewhoaregoingtobemostexposed?Sotheexposureisalreadydifferent,andthenyouknowtheexistingbaselinehealthisalreadydifferentbecauseofalltheinequities,andthenyougetintothe,theactualvulnerabilitiesofthatsituationwhichlikethere'snowayanybody'sinpositiontonegotiatethese.Imeanthis,yeah,Ithinkthattheshareddecisionmaking,justisreally,Imean,I'mgladthatthelanguageisthere,buttheimplementation,it'snotcertainlynotwhatwe'rehearing,we'renothearingthatkindofdecisionmakingontheground.

Aunchalee: No,absolutelynot.Andthentherearepeopleincommunitiesthatarealmostcompletelyerasedfromanyconversationwhichareincarceratedmothersandindividualswhoarepregnant;folkswhoarehouseless;folkswhoareundocumented,alreadyatgreaterrisk.And,wehadaconversationwithsomeonewho'sreportingthattherearesomeindividualswhoareincarceratedandpregnantandbeingputintolikesolitaryconfinementasawayofpreventingtheirexposuretoCOVID-19.Youknowthebasichumanrightsabusesthatarehappening,Imean,therearelotsofreallyimportantwaysofthinkingaboutandtalkingabout

advocatingthroughthelensofanthropologyandanthropologicalengagementinhealthandhumanrightsandotherdifferentkindsofpandemicsandhumanitariancrisesthatarereallyessentialtounderstandingthisdifferentconversationsweshouldbehavingaroundit;essentiallyaroundnotjusttheproductionofknowledgeandthesethiskindofguidance,butalsohowthey'rehowitplaysoutandactually,startsimpactingyouknowpeopleintheireverydaylivesandindifferentcommunities.

Cecilia: You'vebeenverybusybringingexactlythatperspectivetotheconversation.

Aunchalee: CGBIisalsopartoftheinEmergencyNutritionNetwork’s(ENN)InfantFeedinginEmergencies(IFE)coregroup-wesitonthesteeringcommittee.So,wewereyouknow,partofthegroupthatputstogetherlikethejointstatementforinfantfeedinginemergenciesthatcanbeusedatthecountryleveltoadvocateforbestpracticestosupportinbeingachildfeedingandemergencies.We’repartoftheGlobalBreastfeedingCollective-againtheseareorganizationsthatoperateitreallyhighlevels,tryingtoinfluencecountrylevelpolicies.AndthenintheUS,weareaco-stewardoftheUnitedStatesBreastfeedingCommittee.There'saconstellation,theCOVID-19andinfantfeedingconstellation,whichrepresentsorganization,astheyliketosayfromgrassrootstotreetops.So,communityorganizationshealthcareprofessionalorganizationspublichealthagenciesandorganizationsalluptofederallevelpolicydecisionmakers,comingtogethertotalkabouttheseemergentissues,likealotofthesamethingswe'vebeendiscussinghere:howtosupportorganizationsatalllevelsofthatsocialecologicalmodelorframeworkforsupportinglactationandsafeinfantfeedinginthiscrisis.Reallytryingtoadvocateforbetterinvestmentincommunities,investmentandtelehealth,scalingupthingslikedoulasandmidwivesandcommunityhealthworkersandlactationsupportpersonsinthecommunity,tobeabletodeliverthecarethatsodesperatelyneededinthewakeofthesepracticesthataredisruptinglactation.Youknowtryingtocomeupwithsolutionsforensuringthatpeoplewhoneedformulahavetheformulathattheyneedinawaythatprotectsthemfromtheharmfulmarketingthatcomesfromacommercialinterests.Youknow,Iammyheartandmytraining,andmyworkisreallyinthecommunity.Andso,I’mcontinuingtothinkaboutwhatopportunitieswehavetobettersupportlactationforpopulation,youknow,likeincarceratedpersonsandpeoplewhoareyouknowcaughtupinsituationswheretheyhavetouseemergencysheltersorwhoareotherwisedisenfranchisedanddon'thavethesameaccesstoresourcesasothersdoandforwhomhavinggoodsolid,supportforlactationand

infantfeedingisactuallyreallyimportantforthehealthandwell-beingofthemselvesandalsofortheinfantintheshortterm.Soreally,reallybusy.It'salot,youknow,it'salot.AndI'mnotalone.Imean,Ithink,Ithinkaboutallofmycolleagueswhoareinorganizations.thathavetirelesslybeenworkingtosupportBlackandIndigenouscommunitiesofcolorbeforethepandemic,whoarealso–Everythingisonjusthyperdrive.Nowalltheworkthatthey'redoing,allthatthey'regivingandcontinuetogiveeverydaytotheircommunities.Peopleareworkingreally,reallyhard.

Cecilia: It'salot.It'sabutyouknowIthinkandnottryingtosaythatit'snotavalorizationbyanymeans,butyou'reshoulderingalotanditalsoshowsthatthecontributionthatyou'reabletomakebybringinganthropologicalperspectivesintothatspaceisinvaluable.Becausereally,thatisnotverycommon.Ithinkallthreeofusknowthatit'snotthekindofconversationsthatweoftenhavetonegotiatearedominatedbypeoplewithdifferentkindoftrainingandthekindsoflargerglobalperspectivesandthefocuson,youknow,inequitiesandIdon'tthinkisthemostcommonperspectiveiscertainlynot.

Aunchalee: It'snotcommon.Andit's,Imean,honestly,insomeplaces,it'sjustIt'snotashighlyvaluedandpeopledon'toftenknowwhattodowithit.ButIthinkthethingthatgroundsmeinthatwork,andespeciallywe'retalkingtotheselikeveryhighleveldiscussionsaboutguidance,andwhatkindsofguidanceshouldwebeadvocatingforatthecountrylevelorattheMinistryofHealthlevelorevenatthatlikehumanitarianorganizationlevel,myimmediateperspectiveisalwaystothinkabout,“well,how?What'sthatgoingtolooklikeontheground,andwhatistheimplementationgoingtobelike,andwhatarethethingsthatweshouldbeconsidering?AndIthinkmyanthropologicaltrainingwassodeeplyingrainedincommunities,andI'mlookingat,youknow,yeah,wehavethislikestrongguidance,butthatdoesn't-it'simpossibletoputintopractice.Sowhatdopeopledointhosesituations?Andreally,Ithink,inmymind,thatI'malwayskindofgoingbackandforthbetweenthatglobalandlocalthatsortofproductionofknowledgeandguidanceandthenhowthatplaysoutinpeople'slives.Andthat,Ithinkthatdoeshelpmetojusthaveadifferent-it'sjustaverydifferentwayoflookingatthings,likeyouknowemerginginfectiousdiseasesindifferentplaces.

AndIthinkanthropologiststypicallylikewetendtoreallyunderstandthatwehavetolookatthemargins.Wehavetolookatthoseplaceswherepeople'sexperiencesareerased,orwhetherornotyouknow,peoplearekindofjustignoringwhat'shappeninginameaningfulwayandkindofstartthere.Otherwise,eventhebestleadguidanceisnotgoingtocover,youknow,it'snotgoingtocreateequitableaccesstocareforthepeoplewhoare,youknow,mostinneed.

EA: Andofteninternationalcontext,lookingatcommunitywaysofknowingandmanagingcanalsobesoincrediblyinsightful.

Aunchalee: Yeah,absolutely.Anditmakessense.Andit'sconsistentwiththeirvaluesandwhattheirexperiencesandthatisgoingtoinputmakesiteffectiveandIthinkwe'realreadyseeinginplacesthathadastrongEbolaresponseandhavethatexperiencealreadyarehavingastrong-liketheyalreadyhaveanetwork,andalreadyhavetrainedpeopleinplacetodothecontacttracing,thetesting,andthosekindsofthings,likerapidlymobilizing.Ispokeaboutthisinawebinarearlier,likethecommunityhealthworkermodelhasbeenaroundlikeprobablysincethebeginningofglobalhealthwork.Anditisnotaperfectsystem,butitissuchanimbleresponsivesystemthattakescaretopeoplethatwouldbeperfecttoimplementandyouknowit'sareallygreattoolinanykindofdisasteremergency,right,particularlyinaplacewhereyouhave,youknow,shelter-in-placeordersandpeoplecan'tgettothecare.GivethemPPEandhelpthemtakethecare,youknowanddothethingsthattheyneedtodointheircommunities.Andyoutrainpeoplefromwithinthecommunitiestobethesecommunityhealthworkersandthenyouhavelikethesustainabilityprograms.There'ssomuchwrongwithourhealthcare,youknow,wedon'thaveuniversalhealthcareifyouhavetopaylikeinordinateamountsofmoneytogetaCOVID-19testorlikeyouknow,worriedabouthowthey'regoingtopayfortheirhealthcare,likeit'sridiculousthatwe'reinthemiddleofaglobalhealthpandemic-peopleshouldn'tbeworryingabouthowthey'regoingtopayfortheirmedicalbill.Andyetthatistheirreality.

Cecilia: It'showyoudothings

Aunchalee: Wecoulddothingssomuchbetterandinotherplacesthatarewellprepared.

Cecilia: Bettercheaperandlearnfrom

Aunchalee: interactivelyexactlyImeanit'sit'snotCecilia: Yeah,itdoesn'thaveto…

Aunchalee: bethathard.

Cecilia: Likethis.Ithinkthatthat'slikeoneofthehardestthingstowatchandyou

knowIthinkbothofyourpointsliketheerasureofanyindigenousknowledgethatmightexist.Youknow,likethatdoesn'tenterintotheconversation.Ithastobealltopdown,ithastocomefrom,particularkindsofexpertsforgethowpeoplehavesurvivedreallyhorribleconditions,manypartsoftheworld.Andthen,notlearningfromthosemodelsofhealthcarethataretunedintocommunities.Itisshocking.Thearrogance,thecondescensionofsomeofthepeoplewhobelievethatit'simpossible.Youknow,thissortoflikeI'mgonnathrowmyhandsupintheairandI'mjustgonnabelike,what'scool,youknow,we'rejustgonnaletyouknowafewmillionpeopledielikenoImeanIdon'tthinkthat'sanacceptableresponse.It'smorallyuntenableresponse.

Aunchalee: Yeah.Thatsaysalotaboutwho,youknow-somepeoplecareaboutwholivesandwhodies,youknowOr,somepeoplecaremoreaboutsomepeoplelivingandtheydon'tcareaboutotherpeople,Iguess.

Cecilia: Oh,absolutely.

Aunchalee: Yeah,andevenliketheHawaiiStateCommissionontheStatusofWomenputtogetherthislikefeministrecoveryplanforCOVID-19andit'sjustbeautiful.ItwasledbyNativeHawaiianwomenanditwasveryintersectionalfeministapproach,kindofweavingtogetherbuildingthestrengthoftheeconomythroughgenderequitythroughhealthandwell-beingthroughenvironmentalstewardship,likethisveryholisticintegrated,veryforward-thinkingapproach.Andeventheirdefinitionoffeministisveryinclusiveandit’sjustlikewithinyouknowwithinthefirstweeksoftheepidemicalreadyhavingthistime.Ithinkweneed,wehavethelessonslearnedhereit’slike,“thisiswhatweneedtodo.”Wecan'tjustbefocusingonthesedifferentthingspiecemeal,andwehavetoreallybeinvestedinthehealthandwell-beingofwomenwhoaresupportingcommunitiesandfamiliesandtheeconomyandallofthesewaysthathavebeendisenfranchised.Like,IthinkreallyI,youknow,beingabletoelevateandamplifythosekindsofmovements,thinkingabout,youknow,indigenouscultureandjustthisperspectiveoncommunitythatissoessential.Thatiswhat'sgoingtobethewaythatwemoveforwardandwehaveanysemblanceof,youknow,recoveryorresilience.

Cecilia: Ifeellikethat'sagreatendingpointforourdiscussiontoday.

[Music]You’vebeenlisteningtoAnthrolactology.It’sapodcastaboutbreastfeeding,science,andsociety!Anthrolactologyishostedbyme,AunchaleePalmquist,EA,andCecilia.CheckoutourblogatAnthrolactology.comandfollowusonTwitter@Anthrolactology![Music]-END-

Recorded:May22,2020EmailusatAnthrolactology@ProtonMail.comCreditsArtworkbyAunchaleePalmquistEditorialAdvisor:OwenPalmquistAudioEditingbyVitaliyatmakesomenoiseTitlemusic,“BigPlans”,byGraceMesaDownloadepisodesofthepodcastonyourfavoriteapp:https://anthrolactology.buzzsprout.com/EpisodeLinks:CGBICOVID-19L.I.F.E.SupportResources:https://sph.unc.edu/cgbi/covid-19-resources/CommunityActionNepal(CAN)https://www.canepal.org.uk/TomoriC.,GribbleK.,PalmquistAEL,Ververs,MT,GrossM.S.(2020)Whenseparationisnottheanswer:breastfeedingmothersandinfantsaffectedbyCOVID-19.https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/mcn.13033?campaign=wolacceptedarticleJohnsHopkinsNursingblogpostabouttheMCNarticle:https://magazine.nursing.jhu.edu/2020/06/mother-infant-contact-and-breastfeeding-should-remain-top-priorities-during-covid-19/Tomori’sILCAwebinarpresentation:https://ilca.informz.net/ilca/pages/COVID_19_Webinar?fbclid=IwAR08qJoE3NLV9DOFqVoMH9YWnkg1AcbCNx0E2iWkWW9nzyK4pV8fSW7Mozw

LinkstoupdatedAAPguidance(asof7/23/2020):https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-COVID-19-infections/clinical-guidance/faqs-management-of-infants-born-to-COVID-19-mothers/