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Association of Certified Fraud Examiners –Kenya Chapter #134
ICPAK SEMINAR
Role of Interviewing in Forensic Audit
Kwatukha K. Nasumba, C.P.A, C.I.A, C.F.E, C.I.S.A, C.I.S.S.P, C.R.M.A.WIA – East AfricaTEL: 0728 771 497EMAIL: [email protected]
Fraud Risk Management – Jane Mugo, CFE© Association of Certified Fraud Examiners – Kenya Chapter #134
Association of Certified Fraud Examiners – Kenya Chapter #134
About ACFEl ACFE is the global umbrella body of antifraud professionalsl ACFE is the premier provider of anti-fraud training and
education globallyThe mission of ACFE is to reduce the incidences of fraud and white collar crimeValues
l Integrity.l Professionalisml Sharing information
Association of Certified Fraud Examiners –Kenya Chapter #134
l Partnering with stakeholders
Objectives l Build capacity of anti fraud professionalsl Create fraud awareness/education in the countryl Promote fraud risk management initiatives
The Role of Interviewing in Forensic Audit
Professional Interviewingl An interview is a question answer session
l Structured conversation
l For purposes of eliciting information
l Interviewing is a powerful fraud detection and investigation tool
l Good Guy Bad Guy Approach-Legal issues thus making the statement inadmissible
l Factual Approach-Inability to counter alibis in the case of a suspect
l Emotional Approach-Ability to get an admission and physical, real evidence
Types of Interview Approaches
Characteristics of a Good Interview
Essence of an interview is to obtain information and evidence.l Sufficient length and depthl Relevant information-relates to what the interviewer sets out to
achieve in the process. Probative valuel Informall Closely to the time of the eventl Objective in scopel Fair and impartial
Characteristics of a Good Interviewer
l A people’s personl A good listenerl Displays interest l Informall Firml Displays right attitudel Avoid titlesl Avoid strong words such as investigate,embezzle, steal
Elements of a Conversation
l Expressionl Persuasionl Therapyl Information Exchangel Ritualistic
Mechanics of an Interview
l Note-takingl Privacyl Maintain eye contactl Do not telegraph emotionsl Interview one person at a timel Do not write down questionsl Avoid forming opinionsl Document interview immediately
Inhibitors of Communication
l Competing demand for timel Ego threat and seriousness of an offense.l Forgettingl Chronological confusionl Inferential confusionl Unconscious behavior
FACILITATORS OF COMMUNICATION
l Fulfilling expectationl Recognitionl Altruistic appealsl Sympathetic understandingl New experiencesl Catharsisl Need for meaningl Extrinsic rewards
INTERPERSONAL COMMUNICATION TO CONVEY MEANING
l Kineticl Proxemicl Chronemic-coming late for the interview ;silent probel Paralinguistic
MECHANICS OF AN INTERVIEW
l Note takingl Maintain eye contactl Do not telegraph emotionsl Interview one person at a timel Do not write down questionsl Avoid forming opinionsl Document interview immediately
Dealing with Resistance/ Difficult people
l If the respondent say they are too busy – interviewer can sayl Interview will not be longl Interview is not difficultl The interview is legitimatel The interview is important
Difficult peoplel Disarm the witness by l Listeningl Agreeing with the suspect where possible
SIGNS OF DECEPTION
l Oathsl Repeating questionsl Change of pitchl Comments about the interviewl Over respectl Character evidence
Interrogationl It is confrontational in naturel In a very aggressive mannerl To obtain a confession
Interviewl Structured conversion/ question answer sessionl To elicit information/ or admission/confessionl In a friendly/professional mannerl Current/best practice- recommends interviewing
Interviewing as opposed to interrogation
FIRST PHASE OF AN INTERVIEW/ADMISSION SEEKING
Introduction
l Provide introduction
l Establish Rapport
l Establish Theme/ purpose-you need
l Get commitment to assist
ADMISSION/CONFESSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
l Interview for a suspect isl Different from information gathering interviewl Interviewer should not gather information from the suspect until
he/she obtain an admission/confessionl The choice of when to conduct an admission seeking interview
is criticall First establish reasonable probability that the respondent has
committed the actl All other investigative steps have been exhausted
INFORMATION GATHERING – FROM WITNESSES
It is important to interview other witnesses before engaging in an admission seeking interview
l Neutral witnessl Corroborativel Co –conspiratorsl Types of questionsl Open, closed, lead, closingl Suspects should be interviewed lastl This will enable interviewer have sufficient information to face
the suspect with confidence
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
Objective of admission seeking interviewl Clear an innocent person
l Obtain an admission/confession from a guilty persons
l Obtain written statement
ADMISSION/CONFESSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
Assessment of culpabilityl Based on verbal and non verbal responses to interview
questionsl Type of question – non critical questions- hypotheticall Example – Would anybody have a reason to think that you
commit such any actionl What do you think if you were implicatedl Referred to as calibration or normingl Documentsl Other interviews
TRANSITIONAL THEME
l In part, the theme should make the subject believe he/she has been caughtTactic
l Interviewer leave the room for a few minutesl Come in with a file with documentsl Ask the suspect if there is any thing he would like to tell himl Should not let the suspect perceive that he has some doubts
about his culpability
ADMISSION/CONFESSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
Legal considerationl Improperly conducted interviews may expose the interviewer /
organization to legal liabilityl False imprisonmentl Defamationl Intentional infliction of emotional distressl Illegal recording of interviews
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
l Admission/confession seeking interview - initial stagel Accusatory statementl Accusatory question
l Example - You took the money without permission
- Why did you do that?
l The interviewer must maximize sympathy and minimize moral seriousness, to get positive results
ADMISSION SEEKING/CONFESSION INTERVIEWING
To clear an innocent personl Observe reaction after making accusatory statement and
questionl Innocent persons make strong denialsl Interviewer should not try to make an innocent person make an
admission/confessionl Guilty persons make weak denials, or they are silentl Examplel Answering a question with a questionl Giving excuses why the cannot do such a thing
ADMISSION SEEKING/CONFESSION INTERVIEWING
INTERRUPTING DENIALSl Once the interview establish the suspect l Interrupt denialsl Repeated accusationl Delay tacticsl Reasoning with the suspectl By diffusing alibis
Showing the suspect incriminating evidenceDiscuss other witnessesPrevious deception
Never try to reason with the suspect
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
l After the interviewer has succeeded in interrupting denials,l Proceed to askl Alternative Question – to obtain benchmark admissionl Example – why did you take the money, is it because you had an
emergency- reduce the moral seriousness l Suspect is likely to answer the first question – I had an emergency l Therefore obtaining a benchmark admission
or you just wanted extra money – sounds immorall Suspect will unlikely accept that theory, because it looks immoral
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
l Avoid double negative questionsl Answer is usually opposite of the correct onel Examplel Didn’t you know what you were doing is wrong – wrong
questionl Answer is usually – Nol This will not benefit obtaining admission/confessionl The correct way is to make an accusatory statementl I am sure you knew what you were doing was wrongl I believe you had a good reason
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
Other techniquesl Help the suspect-Rationalize their actions- to depersonalize the
suspect
l Example –l unfair treatmentl lack of recognitionl inadequate compensation
Altruistic Appeals – higher need than selfl You had to help somebody- with an emergency
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
l Establish motive/incentiveunderlying reason for the action
l Obtain physical evidence from the suspectTo support the confession evidence
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
l Interrupt denials by l Diffusing alibisl Accuse the suspect directlyl Show incriminating evidencel Discuss other witnesses – without mentioning theml Discuss previous deceptionl Do not try to reason with the suspect
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
l If the suspect is silent
Repeat the question
l If they get withdrawn/cryAsk an alternative question
l Alternative question reduces the moral seriousness
l To obtain a benchmark admission
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
l Once an admission is obtainedl Proceed to verbal confessionl Get general details then specificsObtaining - verbal confession informationl Knew the conduct was wrongl To demonstrate intentl Fact know only to the confessor( once the intent question is
resolvedl Motivel When the offence commencedl When terminated
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
l Determine if others were involvedl Who else knows about this issue?l Obtain physical evidence
( Real and direct evidence)l Disposition of proceedsl Location of assets
residual assets to reduce lossesExample of question
l What is left?
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
CONFESSION - WRITTEN STATEMENT - CONTENTSl Acknowledge that the statement was l voluntaryl Read the statementl That it is truel Intentl Moral Excusel A Separate statement for each offence
ADMISSION SEEKING INTERVIEW
END OF PRESENTATION
THANK YOU
QUESTIONS ?