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“ D Y N A M I C D U O S ” I S S U E !“ D Y N A M I C D U O S ” I S S U E !

J u n e 2 0 0 7

No.22$6.95

GRANT & BREYFOGLE’S BATMAN . LEVITZ & GIFFEN’S LEGION OF SUPER-HEROESDARK HORSE’S RICHARDSON & STRADLEY . EASTMAN & LAIRD’S TURTLESplus FAMOUS SUPER-HERO DUOS and a SCOTT McCLOUD ZOT! INTERVIEW

ROBINROBINfrom SIDEKICK

to SOLO STARfrom SIDEKICK

to SOLO STAR

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8

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Volume 1,Number 22June 2007

Celebrating the BestComics of the '70s,'80s, and Today!

EDITORMichael Eury

PUBLISHERJohn Morrow

DESIGNERRich J. Fowlks

CIRCULATIONDIRECTORBob Brodsky,CookiesoupPeriodicalDistribution, LLC

PROOFREADERSJohn Morrow and Christopher Irving

COVER ARTISTNorm Breyfogle

COVER COLORISTGlenn Whitmore

COVER DESIGNERRobert Clark

SPECIAL THANKSMichael AushenkerPat BastienneSteve BissetteMalcolm BourneJerry BoydNorm BreyfogleGene ColanJennifer M. ContinoRay CuthbertDark Horse ComicsDC ComicsJ. M. DeMatteisMike DunneKevin EastmanTim FrederickMike FriedrichWill Gabri-ElKeith GiffenDick GiordanoGrand Comic-Book DatabaseAlan GrantHeritage Auction GalleriesAdam HughesChristopher IrvingGeoff JohnsMelissa JonesRob JonesDan JurgensMichael KronenbergPeter LairdSteven LeeAndy MangelsMarvel ComicsScott McAdamScott McCloudJames MeeleyMike’s Amazing World of DC ComicsBrian K. MorrisStuart Neft

Al NickersonDennis O’NeilJohn PettyMichael RankinsKeith RichardMike RichardsonRose Rummel-EuryAlex SeguraAnthony SnyderDave SimRandy StradleyBrett TolinoAnthony TollinMark WaidEric Wiler

BACK SEAT DRIVER: Editorial by Michael Eury . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2

FLASHBACK: Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3Robin’s journey through the counterculture and into self-awareness, with Mike Friedrich and Denny O’Neil

FLASHBACK BONUS: The Dynamite Duo: Batgirl and Robin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12A look back at Batman Family’s super-pair, with remembrances from Bob Rozakis

TIMELINE: Fly, Robin, Fly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15Robin’s wild ride from Batman’s side to the Titans’ pride

PRO2PRO: Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18One of Batman’s most unforgettable creative teams reunites for a chat

FLASHBACK: Red, White, Blue, Black, and Proud! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25Before Power Man/Iron Fist, the biracial super-team Captain America and the Falcon made history

PRO2PRO: Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen Revisit Legion of Super-Heroes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32Together again! The team that rocketed DC’s future heroes to even greater heights

JEN’S TOP TEN: Top Five Signs of a Good Team-Up/Top Five Signs of a Bad Team-Up . . . . . 43Some duos do better than others, says Jennifer Contino

NORM BREYFOGLE ART GALLERY: Dynamic Duos and Terrific Trios . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47A gathering of all-stars by the super-star artist

BEYOND CAPES: Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird: Comic-Book Creators in a Half-Shell . . . . . 51Revisiting the 1980s independent title that launched the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and an industryfad, with Eastman, Laird, Sim, Bissette, and … rare art!

PRO2PRO: Mike Richardson and Randy Stradley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57“We did it because we love comics,” say the men who founded Dark Horse

BACKSTAGE PASS: Dick Giordano Day . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67Honoring the man who changed comics, one day at a time

INTERVIEW: Scott McCloud and Zot: The One-Man Dynamic Duo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 68The writer/artist/teacher discusses ’80s fave Zot! and the future of comics

FLASHBACK: The Odd Couple: A Blue and Gold Retrospective . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75The partnership of the Justice League’s Blue Beetle and Booster Gold, with commentary by DeMatteis,Giffen, Hughes, Johns, Jurgens, and Waid

COMICS ON DVD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83Viewing reccomendations for the BI reader

BACK TALK . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 79Reader feedback on issue #20 Fr

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BACK ISSUE™ is published bimonthly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive,Raleigh, NC 27614. Michael Eury, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Editorial Office: BACK ISSUE,c/o Michael Eury, Editor, 5060A Foothills Dr., Lake Oswego, OR 97034. Email: [email protected] subscriptions: $36 Standard US, $54 First Class US, $66 Canada, $72 Surface International,$96 Airmail International. Please send subscription orders and funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to theeditorial office. Cover art by Norm Breyfogle. Robin TM & © DC Comics. All Rights Reserved.All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted.All editorial matter © 2007 Michael Eury and TwoMorrows Publishing. BACK ISSUE is a TM ofTwoMorrows Publishing. ISSN 1932-6904. Printed in Canada. FIRST PRINTING.

D y n a m i c D u o s I s s u e • B A C K I S S U E • 1

The Ultimate Comics Experience!

D y n a m i c D u o s I s s u e • B A C K I S S U E • 3

by M i c h a e l K r o n e n b e r g

The end of 1969 and the beginning of 1970 was atumultuous time in America. The Vietnam War dividedthe nation, and America’s decision to invadeCambodia wedged that gap even further. In March1970 the U.S. Army charged 14 soldiers with murderinghundreds of unarmed Vietnamese villagers in the MyLai Massacre. The trial of the “Chicago Seven,” whowere charged with inciting riots at the 1968Democratic Convention, was making a mockery ofthe judicial system. In May 1970 U.S. NationalGuardsman at Kent State University killed four studentsand wounded nine others during protests against theCambodian invasion. And one month earlier, theBeatles, the symbol of the counterculture and musicalchange, decided to break up.

Amidst this chaotic period, another famous teamwas dissolved. In Batman #217 (Dec. 1969), DCComics (then officially known as National PeriodicalPublications) decided to break up the Dynamic Duoby sending Dick (Robin) Grayson off to college. Thestory in that issue, writer Frank Robbins’ “One BulletToo Many!,” began a new chapter for the Batmanand Robin continuity. Editor Julius Schwartz, with theaid of writers Robbins and Denny O’Neil, decided toupdate the Caped Crusader’s world. It’s somethingSchwartz also did in 1964 when he introducedBatman’s “new look.” This time he tore down andsimplified Batman and his surroundings by trying torecapture the character’s 1939 roots. At the sametime, this gave birth to Robin’s new life as both college

student and as a solo-operating super-hero. As hedeparts Wayne Manor for the airport, Dick Graysonproclaims to Bruce Wayne and Alfred: “I know it’sgoing to be rough on you guys—in the beginning!Guess it’s kinda hard for you to dig that only yesterdayI was your ‘young Master Dick,’ Alfie, and your ‘kidwho needed a big-brother-image,’ Bruce. But—I’m aman now! 'Least—that’s what my draft card says,plus my acceptance at Hudson University!” Thischange forces Bruce Wayne to re-examine his world.Deciding to close up the Batcave and Wayne Manor,he says to Alfred, “…streamlining the operation!By discarding the paraphernalia of the past andfunctioning with the clothes on our backs … the witsin our heads! By re-establishing this trademark ofthe ‘old’ Batman—to strike new fear into the newgangsterism sweeping the world!” (Bruce Wayne’snew “digs” is a penthouse converted from executiveoffices atop the Wayne Foundation.)

CAMPUS CRUSADERThe exploits of Robin would now continue as solostories in the back of both Batman and DetectiveComics. “Dick Grayson’s first day at HudsonUniversity has been an eventful one! He walked smackinto a rebel-student revolt … and a policeman’sclub!” That’s how “Drop Out… or Drop Dead!”(Detective Comics #395, Jan. 1970) begins.Continued from Detective Comics #394, the two-partstory was written by Frank Robbins and beautifully

© 2007 DC Comics.

illustrated by comic-book legends Gil Kane andMurphy Anderson. It unfolds in a letter that Dickhas written to Bruce Wayne. During a campusrevolt, Dick is arrested along with some of therebellion’s leaders. They are ushered away to anabandoned farm. Dick escapes as Robin and over-hears a “dirty plot.” The police are phonies whoare working with the protest leaders. They plan tofake a beating on the protestors, thus sending thestudents on campus into a frenzy and leadingthem to strike the university. Robin attempts totake down the provocateurs: “In seconds it waslike the old days, Bruce—only now I was on myown! No ‘father-figure’ to lend a hand, you know… but then it was my turn and I went down …but good!”

Back at the campus, protesters demand thatthe students shut down Hudson University becausethe “Fuzz” [police] have taken their fellow studentsaway. The protest leaders decide to head back tocampus to display the beating from Robin andblame it on the police. Left with an unconsciousRobin at the abandoned farm, the bogus copsdecide to kill him. Waking in the nick of time,Robin takes them down. Changing to DickGrayson, he races back to campus to try to quellthe strike. Arriving at Hudson, Dick crashes his carinto a squad car containing more of the imposterpolice. The crash suddenly halts all activity asDick attempts to calm everyone: “Cool it, fellowstudents—when the real police check these boguscops’ fingerprints … they’ll find out who’s reallybeen running this show! And don’t take off onthese misled ‘leaders’—their beefs may have beenlegit, but their tactics weren’t! We’re all here for aneducation—guess it’s started already! Eventhough—we’re not even registered yet!” Though itmay seem dated now, storytelling like this was atremendous departure for DC, known as the older,more established, and considerably more conservativecompany when compared to Marvel.

A TRUE TEEN TITANThe year 1970 represented a turning point for thesenior comic-book publisher—Denny O’Neil andNeal Adams’ historic run on Green Lantern/GreenArrow would receive most of the press coverage forits stories of relevance that reflected those turbulenttimes, but Robin’s solo stories (and his occasionalteam-ups with Batman) dealt with many of thesame issues. The difference was that Robin’s storieswere told through the eyes of a college student.To more accurately portray these tales, Schwartzassigned young writer Mike Friedrich to write theRobin backup features. Friedrich (and occasionallyFrank Robbins) would write these stories underthe tight constrictions of an eight-page format.

Mike Friedrich entered the comics industryafter years of writing to DC letter columns in the1960s, where he developed a mail acquaintancewith Julius Schwartz.

4 • B A C K I S S U E • D y n a m i c D u o s I s s u e

Zap! Pow!Wham!...

(right) …ah, youknow the routine.

And in 1970, Robinneeded a new scene.But for the ’60s, Burt

Ward as Robincharmed many a

teen. Autographedphoto from the

collection of BI coverdesigner Robert Clark.

Robin © 2007 DC Comics.Photo © 1966 NationalPeriodical Publications,

Greenway Productions, and20th Century Fox Film Corporation.

Big Bird on CampusPage 3 of “Drop Out… or Drop Dead!,”from Detective Comics #395 (Jan. 1970).© 2007 DC Comics.

comics

history Bat-BuddiesDetail from a Dick Giordano-drawnpinup from Detective Comics #485

(Aug.–Sept. 1979).© 2007 DC Comics.

1 2 • B A C K I S S U E • D y n a m i c D u o s I s s u e

I’ve seen a lot of team-ups ofsuper-heroes in my 30 years ofreading comics, but hardly anyhave entertained me as much as whenBarbara Gordon, Dick Grayson, and theiralter egos of Batgirl and Robin teamed up in the pagesof Batman Family. There was just something about theDominoed Daredoll and the Teen Wonder that madetheir pairing seem ideal. This was partly due to my agewhen reading this originally and partly due to my love ofthe characters through their live-action and cartoonincarnations. But it was also partly due to the greatwriting of their adventures in those pages. BatmanFamily’s Elliot S! Maggin and Bob Rozakis are fantasticwriters who had a handle on the times and made theircharacters believable, likable, and memorable. I stillremember events from those stories as if I’d just readthem a few minutes ago, not several years past.

Rozakis began his work with Batman Family asassistant editor to editor Julius Schwartz before gettingthe chance to write several solo and team adventuresfeaturing Batgirl and Robin. He tells BACK ISSUEthat he thinks it was Schwartz’s idea to teamBatgirl and Robin as a new Dynamite Duo:“The original plan was to alternate team-ups of Batgirl and Robin with solo tales ofeach issue-by-issue,” Rozakis recalls.“Being Julie’s assistant editor meant thatI did a first read-through of the scriptsand would make comments aboutplot points, etc. I would also makespelling and grammar corrections. AsJulie got more comfortable with mywork, he would allow me to do actual editing onthe scripts. When I was the writer of the script,Nelson Bridwell usually did the first read-through.Or Julie would just edit it himself.

“One interesting Julie editing tip: He wouldalways say that a writer should set aside a script fortwo days after it is finished, then read it again andsee if it needed more work,” Rozakis continues.“I found that this worked quite well; often Iwould come up with a better turn-of-phraseor line of dialogue a couple of days later.”

When Batman Family began [with issue#1, Sept.–Oct. 1975], Elliot S! Maggin wrote the Batgirlstories and the first few team-ups between Batgirl andRobin. Rozakis had worked on Robin’s solo adventuresin the backups from Detective Comics. He quicklymoved over to keeping track of Robin’s life andtimes in the pages of Batman Family, as well askeeping a watchful eye on the rest of the cast.“I continued as assistant editor till I moved over tothe production department in 1976,” Rozakis says. “Allduring that period, however, I was looking for morewriting work. As Elliot got busy with other projects, Icampaigned to handle all the writing in Batman Family.”

Rozakis says one of the original goals of BatmanFamily was to mix these all-new team-ups with reprintsof classic tales staring Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Alfred,

by J e n n i f e r M . C o n t i n o

The Dynamite Duo:

and

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Man-Bat, or any other extended member of the Darknight Detective’s family.“We wanted to have team-up stories in alternate issues, so we had to developsome kind of relationship between Robin and Batgirl,” Rozakis says of the pairing.“As I recall, the readers liked what we were doing. I think we were playing to anaudience that appreciated our bringing back characters like Batwoman and tyingto the continuity of years past. As with all the series I’ve written, I was trying torecreate the kinds of stories that made me a comics fan. I liked being able to writewhat I felt were entertaining, self-contained stories, but with some sub-plotsthat carried the characters along. Julie allowed me to bring back characters likethe aforementioned Batwoman and villains like Killer Moth and the Cavalier.”

Although it was nice to see the return of some classic characters, one ofthe best things Rozakis introduced in the pages of Batman Family was thecharacter of Duela Dent, who had a variety of identities including Riddler’sDaughter, Catgirl, and others, including the names she was best known byduring the ’70s, Joker’s Daughter and Harlequin. Although most peoplemight remember her as a hero in the pages of Teen Titans and in a few otherappearances before the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Rozakis says that wasn’t thedirection into which he initially planned to take the character. He wanted her

D y n a m i c D u o s I s s u e • B A C K I S S U E • 1 3

(left) Batgirl plants one on her new partner at the end of their first team-up in BatmanFamily #1. Art by Mike Grell. (below) A fuzzy Batgirl, Robin, guest-star Kid Flash, andBatwoman’s empty costume! From “Old Super-Heroines Never Die—They Just Fade Away!,”written by Bob Rozakis, penciled by Don Heck, and inked by Bob Wiacek. From BatmanFamily #14 (Oct. 1977). Courtesy of Heritage Auctions.© 2007 DC Comics.

© 2007 DC Comics.

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interview1 8 • B A C K I S S U E • D y n a m i c D u o s I s s u e

There was much change in the air for Batman inthe late 1980s: The second Robin, Jason Todd, was killedat the hands of the Joker (urged through a call-in vote),and the Batman movie (starring Michael Keaton) wasreleased and started a tidal wave of Batmania (a culturalphenomenon that rivaled the Batmania of 1966 and,perhaps, has remained unparalleled since). In the midstof all of this change and excitement, writer Alan Grantand penciler Norm Breyfogle were jazzing up Batmanhimself, first in the pages of Detective Comics, then inBatman, and eventually in a title created to showcasethis creative dynamic duo, Batman: Shadow of the Bat.

—Christopher Irving

CHRISTOPHER IRVING: The first Batman comic youtwo did together was Detective Comics #583 (Feb.1988), which introduced the villain the Ventriloquist.Where were you both, at that point in your careers?ALAN GRANT: I was the co-writer on Judge Dredd,Strontium Dog, Robo-Hunter, and several other hit storiesfor 2000 AD. I badly wanted to break into America, as didmy partner, John Wagner, but we didn’t really have asuper-hero-type sensibility. Batman, of course, not being asuper-hero, fit us exactly. When Denny O’Neil [then theBatman group editor] called and asked us if we wanted todo a two-part trial story, we jumped at the chance. Dennywanted us to make it as gritty and violent as we weremaking Judge Dredd. I think that’s exactly what we did. Iwas happy with the results, and the Ventriloquist becamea pretty long-lasting villain. I still get a royalty check everyonce in a while, even when they made the toy of him.IRVING: And where were you, Norm?NORM BREYFOGLE: I was in my second or third yearof drawing comics professionally; I had just gotten offof a year and a half on Whisper for First Comics; it wasa 26-page bimonthly comic book with painted covers(and I was also doing the lettering). I got a pretty swifttraining period there. I’d always wanted to drawcomics, and I’d always wanted to draw Batman. Myagent at the time, Mike Friedrich (who is no longer myagent), put the word out, and I wound up having ameeting with Dick Giordano, in Santa Barbara (he wascoming back from the San Diego Comic-Con, when Iwas living in Santa Maria, California, at the time). I metup with him and his assistant, Pat Bastienne, andshowed them some samples. It wasn’t too long afterthat before I started getting work from DC: First upwere a couple of opportunities in New TalentShowcase, then Batman came up and I jumped at it.

I always find it amusing that Alan doesn’t think ofBatman as a super-hero. Would the term “ultra hero,”“big-time hero,” or “costumed hero” apply…?IRVING: “Action Hero”?GRANT: Just “hero,” actually. He’s a self-made man.BREYFOGLE: That’s true.IRVING: He doesn’t rely on any super-powers.

Big Trouble for BatmanThis late-’80s Norm Breyfogle marker commission pits theDarknight Detective against a bellowing behemoth. From thecollection of Scott McAdam, via Jerry Boyd.Batman © 2007 DC Comics.

by C h r i s t o p h e r I r v i n gconducted November 17, 2006.

Beginnings:Tarzan and the Sabretooth Tiger, published in Finland circa1979–1980 / followed by “Earn Big Money While You Sleep,”a short SF tale for a comic called Starlord, which was latermerged into 2000AD

Milestones:Being asked by John Wagner to co-write Judge Dredd with him(also Strontium Dog, Robo-Hunter, and a dozen others) / beingasked by Denny O’Neil to try out for Batman (I got 13 years ofwork out of that phone call) / Ace Lightning kids TV series(my first TV work, and hugely enjoyable) / Lobo / L.E.G.I.O.N.

Works in Progress:The graphic novel of Robert LouisStevenson’s Kidnapped, with full color artby Cam Kennedy, just released asUNESCO’s “One Book, One City”campaign (www.cityofliterature.com) /90-minute animated movie Dominator-X(www.dominatorthemovie.com; summer2007) / new Robo-Hunter series for2000AD / also working on a new(Scottish-set) novel, a screenplay for anestablished Hollywood actor, and mycompany Bad Press Ltd. hopes to put outa new adult humor comic in late 2007

ALAN GRANT

Beginnings:Tech Team (22-page B&W comic written, penciled, and inked byNorm; published by Michigan Technological University in 1978) /various stories in New Talent Showcase (1984) / Bob Violence(backup in American Flagg) (1985) / Deadtime Stories #1 (1987,New Comics Group) / Marvel Fanfare (various stories, 1985–1991)

Milestones:Whisper / Detective Comics / Batman / Batman: Shadow of the Bat /Batman, various graphic novels / Prime / Metaphysique (creator-owned, -written, and -illustrated, published by Malibu Comics’Bravura imprint 1994–1995) / Anarky / Hellcat / The Spectre / BlackTide / Of Bitter Souls (Speakeasy Comics and Markosia Comics)

Works in progress:The Danger’s Dozen (First Salvo) / variousillustration jobs via Debut Art (London-based art representative agency)

Cyberspace:www.normbreyfogle.com /www.debutart.com/Search2.asp?ARTIST_NAME=Breyfogle+Norm /www.debutart.com / www.firstsalvo.com

NORMBREYFOGLE

GRANT: He doesn’t need to be bitten by theproverbial radioactive spider, or hit by cosmic rays, orneed a vat full of chemicals to splash all over him …he turned himself from a heartbroken child into aspirit of vengeance.BREYFOGLE: I’ve always been amused by that, becauseyou’ve written a lot of science-fiction-themed stories—even Batman has science-fiction elements with histechnology … what you’re saying is, it’s not sciencefiction you have a problem with, and it’s not theheroes, it’s somehow combining the two into a characterthat has super-powers that you have a problem with.GRANT: Hmmmmm…. [laughs] I’ve written characterswith super-powers, like the Hulk, who is a Jekyll andHyde. I’ve written Superman, Supergirl, andSuperboy—all their powers are “deus ex machina,”whereas Batman’s only power that he has is the powerof the indomitable human spirit.BREYFOGLE: Right.IRVING: It’s interesting you guys are saying this (andI’m dating myself here), but I grew up on your Batmanrun, along with Jim Aparo’s before that. What I’vealways noticed about your Batman stories is that theytended to start, when you wrote them, Alan, withBatman beating some thugs up. [Alan laughs]

You established who and what he was in two tothree pages while he beat up some generic thug … andNorm, what I always noticed about your work onBatman was that you always seemed to draw Batmanfrom the criminal’s perspective in those scenes. Youalmost turned him into something more than human.BREYFOGLE: I was actually drawing him from thefan’s point of view, and I think that it’s pretty much thesame thing, because Batman (from a fan’s point ofview) is at his most dynamic when he’s seen throughthe eyes of one of his nemeses. I can see what you’resaying. I didn’t consciously try to draw him from thecriminal’s point of view, per se: I was just trying tomake him look as cool as possible.IRVING: Norm, what was your impression of Alan’sVentriloquist script?BREYFOGLE: It jumped right off the page at me. It wasone of those “Eureka” moments, only it wasn’t my“Eureka,” it was Alan’s in that the scary Ventriloquistcharacter is pretty much a mainstay, and has beendepicted in other genres, specifically horror. Batman hasa really horrific element, especially in his cast of villains.That was perfect, and I wondered, “How come no onehas done this before?” That sort of character had beenaround since the ’50s. I think the first time I sawanything like that would have been in The Twilight Zone,maybe in the early ’60s. There was also a moviecalled Dead of Night, or something, that was about acharacter trapped in a circular dream (with no end) andthere was a ventriloquist character in there. This kind ofthing used to terribly scare me as a child. I was amazed,when I first saw it in Batman, that no one had ever doneit before for Batman. It was perfect.GRANT: The ventriloquist dummy has been a mainstayin horror, and you can understand that because theyseem so realistic. They can seem to take on a life oftheir own when they’re in the hands of their masters.John and I created the Ventriloquist and Scarface asvillains for a Judge Dredd story, and finally got theBatman job from Denny and decided theVentriloquist would make a better villain for Batman,because he’d be able to be recurring. If he were avillain for Judge Dredd, Judge Dredd would have shothim dead and it’d be over.


BREYFOGLE: You had a Ratcatcher-type characterfor Judge Dredd, too, and then introduced a similarcharacter in Batman, so it could’ve appeared in bothplaces under different names.GRANT: I guess he could, but we pulled him from aJudge Dredd story we were working on. That’s ancienthistory, dare I say. [laughter]IRVING: What amazes me is how many characters youintroduced in your first year, like Joe Potato andRatcatcher. But then, with Detective #601 (June 1989)John Wagner left the scripting in your hands, Alan.Why’d he split?GRANT: I guess I might as well be honest: John and Iwrote the first five issues of Detective together. ThenJohn went off on holiday, and I did an issue on myown. The same time that John came back from holidaywas the same time the royalty checks came in, andthere were no royalties. [laughter]BREYFOGLE: You had a royalty statement that saidzero, huh?

GRANT: Less than zero, actually. The break-even figurefor Detective Comics, the monthly, at that time was80,000. They only sold about 75,000. Basically, DC wassubsidizing Batman and Detective Comics. John didn’t havethe same love for Batman that I’ve had since childhood.I’ve read Batman comics since I was three years old, witha big gap from my early twenties to when I started writingit. To John, he would much rather work on charactersthat he’d created, like Judge Dredd, for instance.

We were also working on a story at Epic Comics forArchie Goodwin called The Last American, which was acreator-owned story where a British artist named MikeMcMahon had done the art. After a particularly badweek at work, we discovered that we’d not only notmade any progress, but we’d junked about seven pagesthat we’d written. John and I decided to scrap ourpartnership. He decided, arbitrarily (although I agreedto it), that he would take Judge Dredd and I’d takeBatman. I was lacking in self-confidence on writingBatman [Detective Comics] on my own, so I kept John’sname on my scripts until the end of the first year.IRVING: Interesting. So, Norm, did you know that theBatman sales weren’t that great when youwere given the assignment?BREYFOGLE: I don’t recall … I probablydidn’t really care, I just knew I was drawingBatman and that was pretty good. I wasn’tcounting on royalties to keep me going,since the page rate was pretty good to what Iwas used to. Just before I broke into comics, Iwas working as a technical illustrator at an AirForce base. It was paying the bills, but it wasn’t asgood as I was getting from DC. DC paid better thanFirst Comics, too, of course. I was happy.IRVING: A lot happened within the first two yearsof your working on Detective. Jason, the secondRobin, was killed [in Batman #428], in the later partof 1988. Then the Batman movie came out in thesummer afterwards. Alan, how did that affect the wayyou approached the stories and, Norm, did that affectyour approach in drawing Batman?GRANT: The major effect it had on the story, in knowingthat Robin was going to die, was in my creating thecharacter of Anarky. I had hoped, without mentioning itto anyone at all (even Norman), that [Anarky] wouldbecome the next Robin. I didn’t know that at that time,Denny and Marv Wolfman had been in secret talksabout the development of a new Robin [Tim Drake].

When the Batman movie came out, the sales wentup, if I recall correctly, from around 75,000 to about675,000. That didn’t really affect the storywritingat all—what affected the storywriting wasthat, at that time, Norm and I hadmet up and I’d seen the results ofhis artwork on my script, and it wasobvious there was a synergybetween us. Looking back at ourwork, I still believe that, because itjumps off the page.

That effect was becauseI’d met Norman, andbecause there was some kindof bug between us. We hit offeach other … everything,from my point of view,became more dynamic. I justloved Norm’s artwork.

Anyway, I’ll let Normanswer you now….

Breyfogle’s grippingoriginal cover art to

Detective Comics #588(July 1988), courtesyof Heritage Auctions.

© 2007 DC Comics.


com

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Some things you just can’t plan.Take, for instance, the case of fan favorite Gene

Colan, a Caucasian artist who, as the original pencilerof the characters Blade and Brother Voodoo, foundhimself, by the mid-1970s, in the unlikely role ofpioneering the black super-hero movement. And it allbegan in September 1969, when Colan drew the firstAfrican-American super-hero (as opposed to comics’first African super-hero, the Black Panther) in theoriginal biracial super-hero buddy saga: CaptainAmerica and the Falcon.

THE ICEBERG MAN COMETHDecades before The Truth: Red, White & Black gave usrevisionist history in the form of a glorified “What If?”portraying an African-American super-soldier-serumguinea pig, Marvel Comics explored the flip side of thevalues represented by Captain America to comment onrace in the U.S.A. … and made history in the process.

The year was 1969. The vehicle was first a team,then a title, in the form of Captain America (aka SteveRogers) and his partner-in-fighting-crime, the Falcon—the first Anglo-/African-American super-hero duo incomics … and with it came some strained race relations.Racial conflict plaguing Green Lantern and Green Arrowis one thing, souring relations between Black Lightningand Superman is another … but Captain America?Arguably more than the Last Son of Krypton, Capembodied the American spirit—an iconic incarnation ofour democratic ideals; the living, fighting U.S. flag,busting Nazi helmets and crushing evil Commies.

Yet by the dawn of the 1970s, in the complex wake ofthe Civil Rights Movement, those ideals were reexamined,internalized, scrutinized. In a sign of the times, Marvel’swriters, led by Silver Age architect Stan Lee, sent theSentinel of Liberty (freshly defrosted from an icebergwhere he lie in suspended animation since World War II)


TM

Long Before Power Man/Iron Fist……Cap and Falc made history as comics’ firstbiracial super-duo. The cover to the Falcon’sfirst appearance in Captain America #117(Sept. 1969). Art by Gene Colan and Joe Sinnott.© 2007 Marvel Characters, Inc.

by M i c h a e l A u s h e n k e r

into a different war, not against an external enemy but awar brewing inside America … inside Captain Americahimself. The war at home. The war against racism.

ENTER THE FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICANSUPER-HEROEveryone knows the Black Panther, the first black super-hero created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in 1966.Following the introduction of this moonlighting Africanking, the ’60s almost ended before a second black super-hero would arrive … but when he did, he really took off.

In Captain America #117 (Sept. 1969), Lee onceagain co-created an enduring black super-hero, thistime the alter ego of Sam Wilson, an African-Americanwho day-jobbed it as a Harlem social worker. Lee, Colan,and inker Joe Sinnott introduced the Falcon via an originas awkward as his initial green-and-orange costume(the more popular red-and-white winged versionarrived by the mid-1970s). In “The Coming of theFalcon,” Cap winds up in a Red Skull-devised hell onthe tropical Isle of the Exiles. He is saved by Redwing,

trusty falcon aide-de-camp of an unidentified blackman trapped on the island. Cap convinces the man togo super-hero to “serve as a symbol to the natives.”

The Falcon gradually found his footing as a super-hero. Initially flightless, he crossed town via his grapplinghook-equipped southpaw gauntlet, allowing him to“fly” from rooftop to rooftop. After fighting alongsidethe Super-Soldier, Falcon fell out of the spotlight for aminute when Cap’s original sidekick Bucky Barnesmade his ostensible reemergence … but the high-flyingfighter was destined to return in a big way….

JEALOUSY: THE BLUE-EYED MONSTERUntil #133, Captain America appeared to fly onautopilot—Red Skull, Cosmic Cube, Nazis, M.O.D.O.K.and his A.I.M. (Advanced Idea Mechanics) minions. Inhindsight, Lee was dropping clues all along: i.e., whenan android Bucky was dispatched to mess with Cap’smind while a sidelined Falcon, with love triangle intensity,pined to fight alongside the Star-Spangled Avengerbut felt his chances dashed by the return of “Bucky.”

Astonishing fact: It was a Caucasian man with areally big head who paired Cap with the Falcon. No,that’s not a swipe at Stan Lee, but an allusion to that uglyfathead super-villain less famously known as the “MentalOrganism Designed Only for Killing.” M.O.D.O.K.intentionally threw the two heroes together afterdeciding to manipulate the ghetto masses in a schemeto destroy Cap … not based on any philosophical orpolitical differences, but on appearances! In a weirdinversion of Hitler’s mentality, he was jealous of the blue-eyed, blond super-hero’s perfection. M.O.D.O.K. says itall in a soliloquy: “When I think of HIM—So straight, andtall, and handsome—and then I see—MYSELF! … Iremain a grotesque and pitiful freak—imprisoned in anightmare form! And now all my hatred, all my loathing,is centered on one man—the man who is everythingthat I am not! The man who stands for everything I donot! Captain America! The man I must destroy!”

With Bucky outed as a Nazi android replica, Falconreturned to Cap’s side. Their pairing becameso popular that, in #134, the serieswas renamed Captain Americaand the Falcon (CA&F). Animpressive roster of Marvel’sbest pencilers—as diverseas the duo themselves—interpreted these crime-busting crusaders acrossCA&F’s decade-long run:Colan (1969–1971),John Romita,Sr. (1971),Sal Buscema(1973–1975),Frank Robbins(1975), andJack Kirby(1976–1978).


The original dynamicduo of Captain

America and Bucky inan undated pencil

commission by JackKirby. Courtesy ofHeritage Auctions.

© 2007 Marvel Characters, Inc.

M.O

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interview3 2 • B A C K I S S U E • D y n a m i c D u o s I s s u e

Every so often, a comic-book writer andartist will join forces to capture lightning ina bottle. Dynamic duos such as O’Neil andAdams, Claremont and Byrne, and Wolfman andPérez bring a smile to many a fan, and remem-brances of great and hallowed runs on titles.

In the early 1980s, DC Comics’ The Legion ofSuper-Heroes had begun to stumble. A successionof fill-in stories illustrated by various artists hadtaken the bloom off the rose. But then a youngwriter named Paul Levitz (whatever happened tothat guy?) joined with artist Keith Giffen to makeLegion their own. Like many who find themselveswithin the gravitational pull of the Legion ofSuper-Heroes, they found themselves drawn tothe book, both as a team and as individuals.

—Philip Schweier

PHILIP SCHWEIER: I know it’s Friday andyou guys are anxious to start your weekend,so I figured we’d just kind of leap in and talkabout The Legion of Super-Heroes. PAUL LEVITZ: I remember them.KEITH GIFFEN: Yeah.SCHWEIER: All right. Well, Paul, we’ll startwith you. You came onto the book in the late’70s, when it was still one of DC’s most popu-lar titles. How were you tapped as the newwriter for The Legion?LEVITZ: I think it was the fact that I would killanyone else who was picked. [laughter]GIFFEN: The Legion of Super-Heroes was notsomething you actually volunteered for.LEVITZ: Yeah, I was a real Legion fan as a kid,and [writer Jim] Shooter dropped it right at apoint in time when I was starting to beallowed to write on a serious basis at DC.Whether I was ready to or not is arguable, butat least the tide had changed in that direction.There weren’t a lot of guys lined up wantingto do it, and I probably would have killedanyone of my sort of stature who tried becauseI wanted it that badly—and did it that badly.SCHWEIER: Why do you say that nobodywas really interested in doing it?LEVITZ: Well, if you don’t love the Legion, it’sa pain in the ass.GIFFEN: Yes, the amount of characters wasso big that we’d always keep flow charts.LEVITZ: Yeah, I mean, you’d literally have towrite the book with a scorecard and notes,and that’s if you knew them and loved them.If you didn’t know them and love them, itwas a lot of work. GIFFEN: If you really didn’t care about thesecharacters, it would be agony.

The Great Darkness SagaKeith Giffen, who penciled and inked this extraordinary cover to Legion ofSuper-Heroes vol. 2 #293 (Nov. 1982), substituted art for the title’s logo, a gimmickexpertly employed in the Silver Age on Flash and Batman covers by CarmineInfantino (who was, no doubt, inspired by Will Eisner’s use of same on GoldenAge Spirit splash pages). Original art from the collection of Will Gabri-El.© 2007 DC Comics.

by P h i l i p S c h w e i e rconducted September 21, 2006

and transcribed by Brian K. Morris

Beginnings:The Comic Reader fanzine (1970s)

Milestones:Writer: Justice Society in All-Star / Stalker / Aquaman inAdventure Comics / co-creator of Earth-Two Huntress / Legion ofSuper-Heroes / JSAEditor: Adventure Comics / Batman, Detective Comics, and The Braveand the BoldExecutive: an unmatched climb up the DC corporate ladder in acelebrated career spanning over three decades

Work in Progress:President and Publisher of DC Comics

PAULLEVITZ

Beginnings: “The Sword and the Star” backup in Marvel Preview #7 (1976)

Milestones: The Defenders / Legion of Super-Heroes / Ambush Bug / Legionnaires 3 /Omega Men / Justice League / Lobo / Trencher / Mars Attacks! /Thanos / Tokyo Pop’s Battle Vixens / Annihilation / Blue Beetle / 52…and too darn many others to list!

Works in Progress: Countdown (DC) / Starlord (Marvel)

KEITHGIFFEN

Photo © 2007 and courtesy of DC Comics.

SCHWEIER: I see. So accepting what some peoplemight regard as a rather intimidating baton, whatwere your goals and ambitions for the book?LEVITZ: I think I was about 19 or 20 when I took itover. At that age, it’s not so much goal, it’s “Wow! Igot it!” [Philip laughs]GIFFEN: You know, I don’t think it was that “Wow, Igot it!” when it came to The Legion. But, Paul, backwhen you and I cracked this nut called “comics,” themonthly gig was the Holy Grail.LEVITZ: Yeah, that’s also true to point out. I know therewere very few monthly titles and very few monthly groupbooks. Legion had gone monthly at that point, so it wasone of maybe … God, at that point, five or ten monthlygroup books you could write in the whole business. It wasalways the type of book that I had the most affinity for,both as a reader and a writer. That’s a good point, Keith.GIFFEN: It’s like, who said you had to love The Legionto get into the book and do it? But even if you didn’thave a love for The Legion, nobody in their right mindback then was going to go, “A monthly book? A regularincome? Hell, no!”LEVITZ: Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. There were plenty ofguys who would have taken it, purely for the cash, and ithad been written for the cash a couple of times in its past.GIFFEN: And it showed.LEVITZ: Yeah.SCHWEIER: So why do you say that not many peoplewanted to do a monthly book at the time?LEVITZ: No, no, most people wanted to. There justweren’t many of [those books] around.GIFFEN: Yeah, and also, if you were going to do amonthly book—even the Justice League was manageable.But no, the Legion—how many members were there?SCHWEIER: About 25.LEVITZ: I mean, it’s about 18 or 20 on duty at anygiven time.GIFFEN: And plus, it’s not like you can go and referencethings. The last time I checked, they didn’t have anyphoto reference on Khundia. [Paul and Philip laugh]LEVITZ: That was the wonderful thing and the awfulthing about it. I really loved the fact that Legion was off inits own little corner so I didn’t have to worry about howthe streets of Metropolis were organized or what villainSuperman was fighting this week, or anything to matchwith the rest of the team. Then we could have thiswonderful science-fiction time inventing stuff.GIFFEN: Yeah, and I just love visual world-building.LEVITZ: Well, and you brought an enormous amountto that, Keith, because you took the approach whenyou came on board several years later, of really wantingeach world to have its own visual character.GIFFEN: Mm-mm, yeah. It’s part of the fun.SCHWEIER: Well, Paul, your initial run was veryambitious, what with the Khund War and Chemical King’sdeath and introducing Dawnstar. You were off to apretty great start. How did you expect to follow it all up?LEVITZ: Well, you know, I’d argue the “great start.” Imean, the thing I look back on with great sadness aboutmy first run was the number of issues I didn’t do in therun. It was a point in life where, as I said, I was just beingallowed to write seriously and I was kind of grabbingassignments right and left. I haven’t done the math, butI think probably 30% of the pages in the time of my firstLegion run aren’t my pages. And Gerry [Conway] wouldpitch in and help out with a fill-in story, or I’d get one ofmy friends of my generation like Paul Kupperberg todialogue stuff with me or help me out in some fashion.So I never really built the momentum that I wanted to.


Photo © 2007 and courtesy of DC Comics.

There’s some things I’m very proud of in theKhund War story. The Earthwar story is the longeststory done in Legion to that date, and probably mayin fact be the longest story DC had done to that date.It was one of the first five-parters the company everdid. I think my reach did exceed my grasp, but wewere certainly trying to reach.SCHWEIER: Well, there’s a lot to be said for that. Youdon’t reach, you don’t achieve.LEVITZ: Yeah, it’s better to reach and achieve, yes.GIFFEN: I always find if you reach or grasp, whereyou’ll wind up is still better than where you wouldhave if you hadn’t.LEVITZ: Probably true.SCHWEIER: Absolutely.LEVITZ: I mean, there were some beautiful little storiesin there.SCHWEIER: Yes. Jim Sherman and Jack Abel, I think,were some of the artists that were on that run … andmaybe Joe Staton.LEVITZ: Yep. Originally, Mike Grell was scheduled to doit. That’s where Dawnstar came from. Mike had createdher. I just said, “What would you like to draw, Mike?Make up something.” And he came up with Dawnstarand then I built the character around that, but hewasn’t available for the book.

Then Jim Sherman was the scheduled artist, butdoing a monthly was really out of his reach, even if wecut some of the pages out for backups and things. Hehad commercial commitments. Jim is a wonderfullysuccessful commercial illustrator and designer. He’sdone eclectic things like—I believe he did the MajorLeague Baseball logo. One is reminded of that at thistime of the year, as the playoffs are going on.SCHWEIER: I never knew that.LEVITZ: And he really felt like he was sort of perfectfor the Legion because he was very much a Curt

Swan for his generation.He really knew how todraw faces and emotionin the way Curt did, avery realistic artist.SCHWEIER: I loved hiswork.LEVITZ: But there wasjust no way he could keepup with the book, so wehad him, [and] MikeNasser as the theoreticprimary alternate for him.But as the scheduling waschallenging, more andmore people jumped inand eventually, Joe Statonreplaced him. It was atthe end of my first run.SCHWEIER: Now, Keith,you came in aroundissue #270?GIFFEN: I can’t help youthere, man.LEVITZ: I think you camein on the backups on, like,#285 or 286.GIFFEN: Yeah, I seem torecall one of my first back-ups was a Dream Girl story.SCHWEIER: So how did itfinally come your way?

GIFFEN: Okay, I was back at DC. I was on probationafter having flamed out spectacularly a few years earlier.I’d been doing ghost stories and some of the DC Houseof Mystery stuff when Dick Giordano was the editor,just a regular editor. I was working with Bob Kanigherand I graduated to Mike Barr onto the Doctor Fatebackup in The Flash. LEVITZ: Oh, that’s right, yeah.GIFFEN: But I’d always had my eye on Legion of Super-Heroes. You know, I was not a huge, huge, huge Legionfan back then, even though I’d read them all as a kid—the John Forte Legion, I was very much aware of it. Butwhat I saw, looking at Legion of Super-Heroes, was a lotof incredible untapped potential in terms of the visualtake on the book—what you can do with differentcultures, how you can approach the characters, howyou can really make the stories just stand out. And whenthey needed some backups for The Legion, Mike [Barr]put me on them. I don’t recall what happened with PatBroderick, whether he flamed out or just decided hedidn’t want to do the book anymore.LEVITZ: I think he was having some issues at thatpoint. I don’t really remember what all of them were.I think he was having trouble producing the volume.Again, it’s a very challenging assignment to do.GIFFEN: Yeah. Yeah, you tell me. [chuckles] And whenMike approached me, it was still kind of, you know, “We’restill watching you closely, but would you want to take overthe actual body of the book, pending Paul’s approval?”And I seem to recall, Paul, you actually came to me and forsome reason I think you might have thought you had tosell me on taking over The Legion because you led with,“I’m going to use Darkseid.” [laughter] And if I had anydoubts about it at that point, those doubts pretty muchevaporated because I was a big fan of the Kirby FourthWorld stuff. I was getting a chance to come onto a bookthat I thought had a whole bunch of potential and Ithought, “It’s the monthly gig. I’ve reformed myself.”LEVITZ: [chuckles] You should remember, for perspective,that it was almost impossible to talk artists onto TheLegion. There were a few of us crazy enough to love itas writers—the old days, Shooter and myself, certainlythe two primary bozos—but Curt Swan, when I wouldtry to assign him a Legion story, I had to practicallypromise Curt three other things of his choice.GIFFEN: I was the odd duck. I was the guy who actuallywanted, and was glad, to come on board.LEVITZ: Absolutely. Remember [the instability] we’djust gone through—Staton had done a run, and Joe’s awonderful artist, but it was not a book he ever reallyenjoyed, particularly. Jimmy Janes had done a run. He wasspectacularly ill-cast as the artist for that series, I think.GIFFEN: He was a good meat-and-potatoes storyteller.LEVITZ: Yeah, he knows how to draw, but he knowsreality better than he knows fantasy.GIFFEN: And to me, reality has always been a distraction[Paul and Philip laugh], so I was really thrilled when Ipicked up the Legion assignment, just for the fact that,you know, I would never have to look up what aStudebaker looked like again. [Paul and Philip laugh]

And then, when Paul started feeding me the stories,there was just some kind of a connection that we madewherein he gave me a lot of leeway in terms not only ofartistic input, but input into the stories, and it just becamea really fun assignment. I guess the length of our runstands as testament to the fact that it was fun.LEVITZ: Mm-mm, and the reader can feel it. Joe Orlandoalways used to use the argument to me, as an editor, thatthe reader can tell sincerity.


Paul Levitz scriptedthe first issue of theLSH spin-off starring

Keith Giffen’sleast-favorite

Legionnaire, KarateKid. Original art to

page 20 of Karate Kid#1 (Mar.–Apr. 1976),

penciled by RicEstrada and inked byJoe Staton. Courtesyof Heritage Auctions.

© 2007 DC Comics.

art

galle

ryA Norm Breyfogle Art Gallery


The World’s FinestHeroes in a striking2003 sketch.(All art in this galleryis courtesy ofNorm Breyfogle.)© 2007 DC Comics.

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Before it was a multi-million dollar franchise,before the films, before the animated series, andeven before the action figures, Teenage MutantNinja Turtles was a self-published, black-and-white comic book created by two guys bythe names of Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman.

IT ALL BEGAN WITH A SKETCHLegend has it that the Teenage Mutant NinjaTurtles started with a sketch by Kevin Eastman.

Kevin Eastman recalls that “the wholeidea of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlescame about with a sketch to mine, to asketch of Peter’s, to a sketch of mine, to aninking job of Peter’s.”

Peter Laird agrees: “Yes, in the sense thatKevin drew an anthropomorphic turtle standingon its hind legs with nunchakus strapped to itsforelimbs … and this inspired further drawingsby both of us which then led to the creationof the actual Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.”

Laird and Eastman wanted to self-publisha comic, but had little cash for printing thefirst issue of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.According to Kevin Eastman, “We were bigfans of artists like Dave Sim, who was self-publishing Cerebus, Wendy and Richard Piniwith Elfquest, who were self-publishing, andsome of our heroes that were doing under-ground comics years and years before. Sowhen it came to the Teenage Mutant NinjaTurtles, we had decided to scrape together allthe money that we had and print as manycopies as we could instead of getting rejectionletters from Marvel Comics and DC Comics.We had enough money from a $500 incometax return of mine, $200 from Peter’s bankaccount, and we borrowed about $1300from my Uncle Quentin. Then we hadenough money to print 3000 copies of a 40-page black-and-white comic.”

The first issue of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles(vol. 1) premiered in May 1984. Thus began theadventures of four teeth-clenched, butt-kickingbut lovable ninja Turtles named Leonardo,Raphael, Michaelangelo, and Donatello.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (TMNT) #1had a simple, yet clever, premise—by a freakaccident, four normal turtles were mutatedinto intelligent, walking, talking turtles. TheTurtles were then trained in the martial art of


by A l N i c k e r s o n

Half-Hatched Half-ShellersA rare find, from our friends at Heritage Auctions: Kevin Eastman’s

original pencil layout for the splash page to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1(May 1984), drawn on 8.5" x 11.75" sketch paper. All preliminary art scans

in this article are courtesy of Heritage Auctions; all published art scanscome from this article’s author, Al Nickerson.

© 2007 Mirage Studios.

ninjutsu by an also-mutated, and very wise, rat senseinamed Splinter. The Turtles and Splinter made theirhome in the sewers of New York City.

Each Turtle had a distinct personality as well as aspecific preference toward weaponry. Leonardo wasthe sword-swinging leader of the group. Raphael wasthe rebel who liked to use two sais (the sai becamefamiliar in comic-book fandom with the introductionof Daredevil’s lady assassin, Elektra). The cheerfulMichaelangelo liked to clobber villains with his nunchakus(a weapon popularized by Bruce Lee in the film Enterthe Dragon). Donatello was the smart Turtle whopreferred the use of a staff.

The Turtles’ teacher and parental figure wasSplinter. Splinter’s origins began in Japan. The highlyintelligent rat was once the pet of a ninja by the nameof Hamato Yoshi. Even before being mutated, Splinterwas so clever that he was able to learn ninjutsu byobserving his master.

With Splinter in tow, Hamato Yoshi was forced toflee Japan after killing another ninja, Oroku Nagi. In anact of revenge, Oroku Saki, Oroku Nagi’s youngerbrother, tracked down Hamato Yoshi and slewSplinter’s master. Oroku Saki eventually became theTurtles’ infamous foe and leader of the ninja FootClan—the Shredder.

FRANK MILLERBack in the 1980s, many comic-book fans, myselfincluded, enjoyed Frank Miller’s Daredevil. Peter Lairdwas also a fan: “Back then, Miller was doing someinnovative stuff we hadn’t seen before in comics, or atleast not in the energetic and stylish way he was doing it.And it was cool that he was bringing in Asian martialarts elements, like the ninja from Japanese comics andmovies which had obviously inspired him.”

The influence of Miller’s Daredevil is apparent inthe early issues of TMNT. Homages to Daredevilincluded a very familiar scene of Daredevil’s origin where(supposedly) the same radioactive isotope that gaveDaredevil his powers also mutated the Turtles. TheTeenage Mutant Ninja Turtles had the “Foot” Clan,whereas Daredevil had the “Hand” Clan. As far as senseisgo, the Turtles’ teacher was named “Splinter” instead ofDaredevil’s teacher, “Stick.” There were also a lot ofninjas running around in both comic books, as well.

WILL THERE BE AN ISSUE TWO?Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird had killed off the Turtles’main villain, the Shredder, in the very first issue ofTeenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Sounds like an odd idea tokill off the main villain so quickly, doesn’t it? Well, it’s notif you weren’t planning on publishing more than a firstissue. As Laird recalls, “Honestly, we didn’t think of anissue #2 of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles until after thefirst one came out and it got such a positive response.”

Soon after its debut, the 3000 print run of issue#1 quickly sold out and became an instant hit amongnewfound fans.

So, how surprised were Laird and Eastman about theinstant success of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?“Extremely surprised,” Peter Laird claims. “I rememberin the first few years of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles,when we were asked that question, we would say that

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Eastman’s preliminaryart for the double-

page-spread pages 2and 3, and the

finished version byEastman and Laird.

© 2007 Mirage Studios.

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Dark Horse Comics is one of the industry’s greatest success stories.Other publishers that started at roughly the same time as Dark

Horse—’80s flashbacks like Pacific, Eclipse, Comico, First, andNow—are long gone, their efforts collecting dust in back-issue

bins … or, in some worthy cases, receiving a second lease onlife in collected editions (a few of which were published

by—you guessed it!—Dark Horse). Yet through a lifelonglove of comics, a dedication to producing good comics,

and a little end-of-the-Oregon-trail Westward Hospunk, the publisher’s founding fathers—its

president, Mike Richardson, and his editorial/creative second-in-command, Randy Stradley—

took a single comic book assembled in acomics shop—the anthology Dark Horse

Presents #1 (July 1986)—and built fromits foundation a powerhouse company

that has charged into the worlds offilm, television, and merchandising… never forgetting its comicsroots on its race to acclaim.

I had the good fortune ofworking, on staff and later, asa freelancer, at Dark Horse

during the 1990s. Two daysafter Christmas 2006 I returned

to the company’s modest-but-cooloffices in the Mayberry-esque Milwaukie, Oregon,to chat with Mike and Randy and to gallop into

the company’s past.—Michael Eury

MICHAEL EURY: Let’s go back to ‘86. Mike, you owned a fewcomic shops in the Portland area. What was the inspiration foryou to start publishing comics?MIKE RICHARDSON: Well, there were a number of reasons.First of all, I loved comics because, obviously, I had grown upwith them. In the ’80s, I opened a comic-book shop, and Ifound myself wishing that comics would live up to their potential.So initially, it was a love ofcomics and the desire to seethem done better. And then, ofcourse, I had several friendswho shared my interest incomics: Randy and [writer]Mark Verheiden, who’d bothdone some comics for Marveland DC. I also contacted PaulChadwick, Randy Emberlin,and Chris Warner. We were allveterans of Mark’s APA-5 andall had demonstrated talent inthat fan publication.EURY: So you literally puttogether your first comic bookright there in the shop.


by M i c h a e l E u r yconducted December 27, 2006 and transcribed

by Brian K. Morris, with Michael Eury

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“We Did It BecauseWe Love Comics”:

Richardson and Stradley Recal lthe Early Days of Dark Horse

RICHARDSON: Right on the counter. Everyone whocame into the store knew what we were doing. Weeven had a contest to name the first issue of ourcomic. I had decided to call the company “DarkHorse,” but we wanted a title for the first book and Ithought, “Dark Horse Presents” sounds good. Then wehad second thoughts, “Let’s see if somebody’s goingto come up with something better.”

We created a big contest in the store, and after allthe dust settled, the winner was … Dark HorsePresents. [laughter]EURY: Did you consider any names other than “DarkHorse”?RICHARDSON: For some reason, I liked “Dark Horse.”At that time, I was thinking of starting an art agency. Iwas working as a commercial artist and doing a numberof freelance jobs. I had made quite a few contacts whileI was in college and built up a nice client list by working

much cheaper than the local ad agencies. By the time Imoved to Bend [in central Oregon], I didn’t have time todo all of the jobs I was being offered. I was still getting

calls from different companies wanting me to designads and supply illustrations. Times were tight and Ihated to turn down the cash, so I found some localartists needing work and split the fees with them. I wasthinking of starting an actual agency and calling it “DarkHorse Graphics.” I just liked the sound of it. So whenthat idea went on hold and I started the comic-bookcompany, I just used the name “Dark Horse Comics.” Itseemed appropriate since we were so far from New Yorkand the rest of the comics publishing world. It seemedto me that we were certainly a kind of dark horse.EURY: Did any of your comics shop customers hit youup for work in the early days?RICHARDSON: Oh, of course.RANDY STRADLEY: Yeah, there were a couple of peoplethat pitched stories, and one of our customers, JimSmith—James Dean Smith—came onto staff to do Boristhe Bear.RICHARDSON: When Randy and I started working onDark Horse Presents #1, I drove out to pick up ourweekly comics shipment [for the comic shop] at RichardFinn’s Second Genesis Distribution. This was right afterthe Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles had appeared andbecome a smash success. While I picked up our ownbooks, I looked down the row of the week’s titles andsaw that 15 to 20 of them were ripping-off of the Turtles.I told Richard, “Look, you’re adding all of this stuff toour order. We don’t need all of it.” And he said, “Yeah,I can cut them out, but don’t you want some for yourcustomers?” So I felt obligated to take some of the titles,but I didn’t like it. Most of the books were not good. Onthe drive back to the store, I had a random thought,“We need one of these characters to come along andwipe out all these other characters so that his own bookwould have more space on the racks.” I came back andpitched Randy the idea, and he thought it was great.

We started thinking, about who we could hire toillustrate the book. We originally wanted to do it withKeith Giffen—this was just after he had done AmbushBug—and we tried to get a hold of him, but had no luckthere. So then we started thinking about other names.We had a customer who used to hang around the store,Jim Smith, who had just joined APA-5. He drew thesepictures of a bear [Boris the Bear] and we decided tooffer the book to him, since it was just going to be aone-shot. He was a good enough artist and we neverdreamed that we’d do another. We thought, “It’ll befun, and we’ll be in and out.” We sold 80,000 copies!And “in and out” became “again and again.” [laughter]EURY: So Boris the Bear sold 80,000 copies. How didyour first comic, Dark Horse Presents #1, do?RICHARDSON: We sold 50,000 copies.STRADLEY: We were thinking we’d sell 10,000 copies,and we sold fifty. Boris came in right after that, and wethought—and were hoping, again—that we’d sell10,000, and we sold eighty.EURY: So the numbers were very surprising to you onyour first few issues.RICHARDSON: All of a sudden, we had books sellingbetter than we’d ever imagined. It looked like we mightreally have a comics company. We never really envisionedthat—we thought of doing comics and selling themout of the stores and having a nice little thing on the side.San Diego [Comic-Con] just happened to be scheduledabout the same time as our first two books werereleased. For some reason I couldn’t go, so Randy andChris Warner took the first issues down to the convention.When they came back, they were really excited by theresponse the books received. We were all excited.


A 1994 print ofJames Dean Smith’s

Boris the Bear.Boris the Bear TM & © 2007

James Dean Smith.


Editor’s note: Inspired by Astro Boy and legendary Japaneseartist Osamu Tezuka, Scott McCloud’s Zot! was a buoyantand much-loved series published by Eclipse Comics fromApril 1984 through July 1991. Running 36 issues (the firstten in color, and the remaining issues in black andwhite), the manga-like Zot!—part sci-fi and partromance, peppered with super-hero-like elements forgood measure—was the first major work of writer/artist

McCloud, who has since authored and illustratedthree influential books about the language ofcomics, the most recent being Making Comics.

MALCOLM BOURNE: Where did the wholeidea of Zot! come from?SCOTT McCLOUD: When I created Zot! Iwas just out of college and working at DCComics in Manhattan, as a productionflunkie. I was having a grand time, gettingto know the city, getting to know the

industry. I had a lot of ideas in my sketchbook,but in a way I had come to a point in my life

where I felt it was important to create some-thing of my own and not just try to go through

the mill of learning to letter, learning to inkbackgrounds, and gradually go up the ladder.

Instead I wanted to create something from scratch,write and draw a comic which would be entirely my

own. And in a way, Zot was just the thing at the topof the sketchbook at the time.BOURNE: As a reader, I had just started at universitythen, and it seemed that for the first time ever, really,there was this big explosion of creator-owned comicswith some genuinely different ideas. Did it look like thatto you as a creator, that the marketplace was changing?McCLOUD: The marketplace was definitely changing inthose days. The direct market was starting to reallybecome a substantial force in the industry, and afterCerebus and Elfquest and a few other titles, smallcompanies were popping up, like Eclipse and Pacificand First Comics. They were more favorable tocreators, in terms of rights. I had the notion in myhead that I wanted to have control and owner-ship of my creation, so I was very attracted tothose companies. I did show the work to DC,which I considered my alma mater, as it were,since I had worked there in the productiondepartment. I showed it to Epic at Marvel,

by M a l c o l m B o u r n econducted at the San Diego

Comic-Con, July 2006

Scott McCloud photo courtesy of Malcolm Bourne.Zot! TM & © 2007 Scott McCloud.

TM

which was a creator-owned imprint they were workingon, or at least a more creator-centred imprint.

But my eye was really on the “independents,” andwhen Eclipse expressed interest I went with them. Themarket was definitely undergoing a lot of evolution.When we look back at it now we find a lot of the titles thatwe associate with that period were, in many ways, justimprovements on the super-hero formula. They were stillgenre titles, they were still not all that different from whatwas being done in the mainstream, although they weregenerally more creative, unique, more distinctive, moreidiosyncratic than what was being done in the main-stream. I still felt even then in the mid-’80s, that what Iwas looking at then was really just a harbinger of a morediversified market. I had already been weaned on WillEisner’s Contract with God, Raw magazine, Weirdo,European comics, and Japanese comics, so I knew thatthe degree of evolution that we had achieved at thatpoint was still fairly modest, compared to other markets.BOURNE: As a reader then, it seemed that a lot of itwas new, so although I had just about become familiarwith Eisner and Cerebus by then, and books like Zot!,Jon Sable, and Nexus felt very new and different, evenif, looking back, they were very closely allied to thedominant super-hero genre.McCLOUD: In a way, they were variations on thesuper-hero.BOURNE: I think it does reflect how tight a boundarywe often put around what we think comics can do; atthe time it did seem very, very different, and lookingback probably what was different was there was morecreative freedom for the creators, even if they weredoing more similar work.McCLOUD: Yes. Parallel to that movement, thosetitles, simultaneously you did have more profoundlyalternative, for lack of a better word, comics, such asLove and Rockets, or Peter Bagge’s Neat Stuff, or DanClowes’ Lloyd Llewellyn. These were creators that were justabout to break out themselves and do more interestingwork. This was a time when Chris Ware, for example,was doing Floyd Farland for Eclipse, a title I am sure hewould rather everyone forgot about.

There was a lot of untapped potential there but atplaces like Fantagraphics, you could see I think a moreprofound kind of alternative to what was being donein the mainstream, whereas ours was a kind of middleground, myself and my peers.BOURNE: It is interesting hearing you talk about howdifferent things really were or weren’t, so that as yourightly say, books like Love and Rockets were exploringthe real world, for want of better words, in a comic-book market in a way that hadn’t really been donemuch, other than through some of Will Eisner’s work.McCLOUD: I think theirs was the real vanguard in thedirect market at the time. BOURNE: Everyone raved about it. Zot!, of course, atleast subjectively, might only have been started as aspace fantasy that was, in your terms, in genre; but bythe end had metamorphosed into a story about humanrelationships. Those last dozen or so issues were some ofthe most amazing comics ever written about people—certainly in the ’80s and ’90s.McCLOUD: Collectively known as the uncollectedZot!s, at least until they get the reprint book out!BOURNE: We are waiting for that.McCLOUD: Yes, everyone is.BOURNE: How much of that was conscious? Did youmean to start with something that was much more “ingenre,” if that is a reasonable description, and move to

something quite different, or did the book just evolveinto a more serious one?McCLOUD: I think the evolution of Zot! had more todo with my own restlessness. I was interested in somany different types of comics, it was hard for me tostay on just the one for very long.

It was also partially a result of the change to black andwhite. It was partially for economic reasons, we wereunable to keep the color series going. I felt the stuffbelonged in color at the beginning.The fact was that it had been inspiredin large part by black-and-whitecomics, by Japanese comics, which Iwas quite obsessed with immediatelyprior to creating Zot! I’ve learned alot from Japanese comics. So whenwith issue #11 we went to black andwhite, I really embraced that formand in subsequent conversation—sometimes it will come up withperspective publishers or did sowith Eclipse itself back in the day—there might be the notion ofreprinting the series, and having thecolor issues reprinted in black andwhite, and I would say, “No, theywere designed for color.” At othertimes I have had offers to reprint theblack-and-white issues and to colorizethem, and I would say, “No, theywere designed for black and white.”To me, it was extremely importantthat they be designed for theirformat. The black-and-white issues

Beginnings:Fanzine and B&W comic work in late 1970s, including The Battle ofLexington with Kurt Busiek

Milestones:Zot! / Destroy!! / Understanding Comics (book, 1993) / SupermanAdventures / The New Adventures of Abraham Lincoln / ReinventingComics (book, 2000)

Works in Progress:Zot! Online / Making Comics (book, 2006) / Making Comics 50State Tour (through August 2007)

Cyberspace:www.scottmcloud.com

ScottMcCLoud

Photo courtesy of Malcolm Bourne.


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At DC Comics, the 1985–1986 maxiseries Crisis onInfinite Earths reset the DC Universe for a new heroic age.Worlds lived. Worlds died. And super-heroes met

unfortunate (and sometimes fortunate) fates by thedroves. DC’s longest-running team book, Justice

League of America, was not unaffected by thecompany’s shift. The “Detroit League” was

disassembled and the book was cancelledto allow for a reconstruction project in afollow-up DC event. Legends, basedloosely on the biblical story of Job, put thesurviving DCU heroes through dark daysof doubt and public suspicion only tohave them emerge much stronger in theaftermath. A new Justice League wasformed as Legends drew to a close. Butsomething was not quite right—or atleast not very familiar—about this League.


These guys really shouldn’t have been as popular asthey became. Laurel and Hardy? Abbott and Costello?Hawkeye Pierce and B. J. Hunnicut? Those guys madesense. But Ted Kord and Michael Jon Carter? BlueBeetle and Booster Gold? Two third-tier super-heroes in spandex and goggles didn’t seem to bea formula for comedic gold … and blue. But in1987, an unlikely duo was formed by anotherunlikely duo—Keith Giffen and J. M. DeMatteis—and became one of the most dynamic and mem-orable pairs in modern comics.

By the 1980s comics had become a mediumdominated by serious writers and artists tellingserious stories. Underground comics hademerged as important alternatives to tradition-al super-hero fare, but even super-hero comicsbegan to move toward darker tones and subjectmatter. This was never clearer than in the mid-’80s explosion of “mature” super-hero talessuch as Alan Moore’ and Dave Gibbons’Watchmen and Frank Miller’s Batman: TheDark Knight Returns. These books transformedthe expectations of super-hero stories. The“grim and gritty” movement that followedlasted well into the 1990s and would pullmost super-hero comics along in its wake.

Bosom BuddiesDetail from cover toJustice League America #34;art by Adam Hughes.© 2007 DC Comics.

by A l e x B o n e y

For one thing, these were not the A-list heroesthat had dominated the book in the “Satellite” eraof the 1970s. Martian Manhunter and Batman wereon the team, but the other “big guns” were in themidst of being revamped and weren’t available tothe book’s creative team. The rest of the Leagueconsisted of Black Canary, Captain Marvel, Dr. Fate,Guy Gardner, Blue Beetle, and Mr. Miracle. Was thisreally a meaningful reset?

Another oddity about the new Justice League wasthat the book was funny. Not a-wisecrack-here-and-there funny, but genuinely comical. The storiesoccasionally slipped into serious territory, but theestablished tone was light and loose. By the fourthissue, a new member—Booster Gold—joined theteam and added even more comic relief to a comicbook still finding its voice. And by the seventh issue,the combination of Blue Beetle and Booster Goldmanaged to drive a loud, irreverent “BWAH-HA-HA”through the heart of a genre that had begun to takeitself quite seriously.

THE SUM OF ITS PARTSMost of the characters in Justice League had beenassociated with traditional comic-book heroics.Blue Beetle and Booster Gold were created to besuper-heroes in mainstream comic books, but theywere not “comic” characters when they began.

Blue Beetle, first published by Fox Comics in 1939, wasintended to compete with then-burgeoning super-heroes like Superman and Batman. The Blue Beetlemantel was worn by Dan Garret, a policeman whobecame Blue Beetle in order to fight crime he couldn’twithin the constraints of public law enforcement. BlueBeetle was acquired by Charlton Comics in 1964, andDan Garret was reimagined as an archaeologist whoattained extraordinary powers when he found a mysti-cal scarab in an ancient Egyptian tomb. When SteveDitko began working for Charlton in the mid-’60s, BlueBeetle was reimagined as inventor/scientist named TedKord, who had inherited the Blue Beetle identity whenthe original Beetle (now Dan “Garrett”) was killedduring a fight on the remote Pago Island. Ted Kordcreated a new costume, new accessories, and a distinc-tive vehicle called the “Bug.” When DC acquired BlueBeetle in 1985, the company kept most of Ditko’s revi-sions intact. The costume and accessories remained thesame, but Ted Kord was now a wealthy industrialist incharge of Kord Industries. Ted was still a scien-tist/inventor, but his financial stature provided theresources he needed to sustain his crimefighting identi-ty. Beetle was given his own ongoing comic book—written by Len Wein—in the aftermath of Crisis onInfinite Earths, but he was also featured prominently inthe Legends miniseries that began the same year(1986). True to his origins, Blue Beetle’s early DCappearances were fun but fairly straightforward super-


Beetleman iaBefore he became

Booster’s bud, BlueBeetle was blended

into the DC Universeas its Spider-Man

substitute. JohnByrne/Karl Kesel

original art to (below)the unlettered page

15 of Legends #2,and (below right)

page 18 of issue#4 (Feb. 1987),contributed by

Mike Dunne.© 2007 DC Comics.

back issue #22

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