building a heat treatment oven, information database

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130813,12:49PM

Re:BuildingaHeatTreatmentOven,InformationDatabase.

TheebayshopforKanthalA1wireseemstobedown...Doesanyoneknowanothersupplier?Also,whatdimensionsofacoilarethebest?ThecoilsIfindonebayare~5mmindiameter,andIPUinhisthreadsaidhiswere9.5mm.

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130813,03:13PM


Pmtoolcohasbeenofftheradarforagoodwhilenow.

Thereareafewplacesthatwillmakeelementstocustomerspec.intheUK.

I'vejustboughtsomeelementsfromasourceoverhere,buthaven'thadachancetorunthemyet.

Iaskedfor1.6mmKanthalA1wirebecausethe1.29mm(16AWG)elementsinoneoftheovensI'dbuilthadbeenburningoutwhenusedatstainlesstemperatures.Hopefully,thesewilllastbetter.PricewasconsiderablyhigherthanPmtoolco,butthere'salotmoreKanthalinthebiggerelements.

ThecompanyisKineticaCNC.

http://www.kineticacnc.co.uk/epages/...ories/ELEMENTS

Theguyseemedtoknowwhathewastalkingaboutandtheelementslookfirstclasstome.Servicewasgreat:Paypalledandtheyarrivedafewdayslater.Ican'tofferanypersonalrecommendationatthemomentthoughit'llbedowntohowwelltheywork.

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130813,04:15PM


Howaboutwindingtheelementsyourself?Anypro'scon's?Idon'thavealathe,soitwillbeallbyhand...Howhardisittobenda1.6mmkanthalwire?

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130813,08:29PM


The1.29mmstuffseemslikeitcouldprobablybedonewithafairlyslowelectricdrill,coupledwithsomeingenuityanddetermination.

IIRC,stiffnessincreasesasthefourthpowerofthediameter.The1.6mmcertainlyfeelslikeitwouldbeamoreseriousundertaking,atleastwiththesortoftightcoilsI'vebeenusing.Ihavebeengetting.380"ODcoilsfromjrider/pmtoolcoandinstallingthemingroovesroutedwitha10mmrouterbit.

ThebiggestproblemI'vefoundisgettingholdoftheKanthalA1,orequivalent.Theplacesthatwillsellitinsmallquantitiestendtobetheplacesthatmakeelements.It'swhattheyaresetuptodoandtheextracostofgettingtheelementswoundisprettytrivial,particularlywhenyouconsiderthatsomeone,whoactuallyknowswhattheyaredoing,ischeckingyourcalculationsandabsolvingyouoftheriskyou'llmakeacompletehorlicksofwindingthem.Jrider/Pmtoolcowascheaperforwoundelementsthananyoneelseonebaywasforthewirealone.

Afterthefirstcoupleofelementfailures,IdidsomesumsandreckonedIcouldgouptoa1.8mmelement,coiledona15mmformertofita3/4"groove,withintheovendimensionsI'dalreadybuilt:18"/450mmdeep,7"/175mmWideand6"/150mmhighinternally.They'dobviouslyneedthegroovecuttingbigger,sothey'donlybefornewbuilds.

IpricedthematerialfromKanthalminimumorder10kg,costinroundfigures500,enoughfor17ovens(ifyoucanwindthemallwithoutwastingany).Itwaswayoutofmybudget.

Ididthesumsforthe1.6mmelementsandfoundtheycouldbemadeto(just)fitintheexistinggroovesintheovensI'dalreadybuilt.

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Ireallywouldn'twindmyownelementsunlesstherewasnootherrealisticoption.

Ifyoudecidetowindyourown,makesurethewirecomesinausableform.Iboughtacoupleoflotsof1mmKanthaloffebayformakingthepinstolocatetheelements.Onewasakiloorsolayerwoundonafactorycoilexcellent.Theotherwas50metresthathadbeenratherroughlyhandwoundontoacardboardtubefineforpins,butitwouldhavebeenveryhardtowindacoilwithit.

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140813,09:00AM


Ihaveboughtmywirehere:http://www.heizspiralen.de/Draht.htmlNiceandfast,Icoilmyelements,noproblem,justletitrestovernight,toset.

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LasteditedbyBrok140813at09:06AM.Reason:addingpictures

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140813,01:27PM


#21

Libris



Thanksforthehelplads.

Imighthavemissedit,butcouldanyonehelpmewiththecalculationsfortheheatingelements?It'salldowntoohm'slaw,isn'tit?

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140813,01:52PM


Okay,sorrytospam,buthereismycalculation,amImissingsomething?

Bythelooksofit1750Wfurnaceisplentypowerfulenough.SoifCurrent=Power/Voltage=1750W/220V=7.95A

ThenifResistance=Voltage/Current=220/7.95=27.67Ohms.

InthelinkBrokgaveus,1.8mmkanthalhasaresistanceof0.57Ohms/m.

ThenLength=R(total)/R(permeter)=27.67/0.57=48.54mtotalwire,orforoneelement24.27m.

http://deepfriedneon.com/tesla_f_calchelix.htmlUsingthiscalculatoritseemsthatifwoundintoa20mmcoilIwillendupwith387turnsandalengthofacoilof696mm(beforestretching)whichishellishlylong!!Ionlyplantohavemykilnregularsize,noneedforswordlength...Itwouldalsosetmebackabout80Eujustforthewire...

SoIguessthetwoquestionsare:Ismymathscorrect?Andisa1.8mmwireanoverkill?

Also,Timgunn,Ihaveputthedimensionsyouhaveposted(1.8ona15mmformer)anditturnsouttobea927mmheatingelement?Aremycalculationswaywayyyyoffthen?

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LasteditedbyLibris140813at03:19PM.


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290813,11:44AM


Heyguys

HasanyoneconsideredimportingthewirefromChinadirect?Forexample:http://www.*******.com/productgs/87...num_Alloy.htmlGotaquotefromthem,$18/kg,minimumorder5kg.Isthatareasonableprice?Wouldyouhaveanyadvice?

EDIT:Oh,lookslikethatwebsiteiscensoredinhere.MayIask,why?Didn'tfindanythinginsearch.

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LasteditedbyLibris290813at11:58AM.


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310813,02:53PM


Imademinewith1.6mmkanthal,totalohmwas14~15ohmIdon'trecalltheexactnumber,buttheideawastohavelessthan15AsoIcouldusea16Athermalswitch.OriginallyImadeitabout20ohmbuttheovenwastooslow.

Pablo

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170913,10:39AM


HiI'mcurrentlyontheovenbuild,there'samassiveamountofinfoherethat'smakingitalleasy,cheers.

Coupleofquestionstho,decidingwhethertousethelarger230x610mmbricksandthinkingwhytheymighthavebeenusedbefore?Wouldsaveoninsulationandcuttingbricks.Iguesstheremaybeincreasedchanceoftheslabcrackingwhenmovingasnoplayinbricks?

Alsowasthinkingaboutcoveringtheprotrudingboltswithmorefirebricksforh&s,drillintersectingholesforboltsandwiressothatwholeassemblyiscovered.Seamstomakesensetomebutwasn'tsureiftheboltsneededtobe'cooled'sotospeakandinsulatingthemmaynotwhatyouneed?Thatgotmethinkbouttheprotrudingboltsthatconnecttheelectsupplytotheelements.Ifyouheatingtheinsideoftheovento800cdoesn'tthatincludeheatingtheboltsto800ctoo?Whateffectdoesthathaveontheconnectingwiresanddoyougetredhotboltsouttheback,doesn'tthatmeltthewires?

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170913,03:21PM


Ihaveseenquiteafewpeopleusingceramiccableconnectorstoconnecttheboltstothepowersupply,likehere:http://www.britishblades.com/forums/...=1#post2024995

Iwillbeusingthesameprinciplemyself.

Ihaveanotherquestion,isitokaytoshortenthethermocouplewiretoconnectittotheceramicterminalsinthebackoftheoven,andthenrunanaudioqualitycabletoaconnectorinthecontrolbox?

Imighthavereadanopinionthatmanyconnectionscanaffectthereadingaccuracyoritcouldhavebeenmyimagination..

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170913,04:09PM


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IwouldnotconnecttheElementsinsidethekiln,thatseemstocausemostoftheburnoutissues.Insteadruntheelementtailsoutsideandterminatethemthere,minearedonebysimplywrappingtheelementwirearoundandM6boltwitha'penny'washereithersidewithacrimpedconnectorattachedtosome4mminsulatedcablerunningtoaceramicconnectorsothatitlookslikethis:

Bolt|Washer|Element|Washer|crimpedtail|Washer|NutCeramicconnector========Controlbox

Ifthatmakessense,don'twraptheelementwirearoundtheboltsothatitcrossesitself,itneedtobeabightratherthanaloop.TheM6boltisnotattachedtoanythingithangsintheairwithplentyofspacearounditandnotinapositionthatitcanaccidentallytouchanypartsofthemetalframe.

Ihavehadmykilnregularlyupto1050DegCforRWL34withoutanyissues.

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170913,04:51PM


Doyouhaveapicturemate?

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170913,07:41PM


HiLibris,inmyinstallationIhavetheelementtailsrunningthroughtherearbricksforabout8"thenconnectedtotherelaywireswithsimpleplasticcoatedelectricalblocks,maybenottheprettiestbutI'vehadnoproblemsatall

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OriginallyPostedbyLibris

Doyouhaveapicturemate?

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170913,09:56PM


#30

timgunn1962VIPMember OriginallyPostedbyLibris

Ihaveanotherquestion,isitokaytoshortenthethermocouplewiretoconnectittotheceramicterminalsinthebackoftheoven,andthenrunanthenrunanaudioqualitycabletoaconnector



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No,it'snotOK.

Thenumberofconnectionsisn'treallyaproblem,buttheuseofdifferentcableis.

Athermocoupleisbasicallyjustajunctionof2differentmetals.Avoltageisproducedacrossthejunctionandthevoltagevarieswithtemperature.

Everycombinationofmetalshasitsownvoltage/temperaturecharacteristic,butonlyafewareusefulformeasuringtemperatureandstandardshavebeendevelopedforthem.

Theideaisthatthereareonly2junctionsinthecircuit.Oneishot,theotheriscoldandislocatedinthemeasuringinstrument.Theinstrumenthasanaccurateinternaltemperaturemeasurementsystem,soitknowshowhotthecoldjunctionisandthereforethevoltagethatit"should"beshowing.Itmeasuresthevoltagefromthehotjunction,addsthevoltagethatcorrespondstothetemperatureofthecoldjunction,andlooksupthetemperaturefromthetotalvoltageonitsinternaltable.

Forthistowork,youneedtousethesameconductormaterialallthewayfromthehotjunctiontothecoldjunction.Thermocoupleextensioncableismadefromthesamematerialsasthethermocouple.Ifyouuseplugsandsockets,theyalsoneedtobemadefromthesamematerials.Boththecableandtheplugsandsocketsareavailableforeachofthestandardthermocoupletypesandarecolourcodedtosuit.Thisiswhatyouneedtobeusing.

Ifyouchangetheconductormaterialanywhere,youwillgetanunexpectedjunctionwhichwillproduceavoltageandlouseupthereading.It'sworthnotingthatusingthecorrectcable,butconnectingitwrong,isparticularlybad.

Itisn'tverylikelytoaffectus,butthereisalsothermocouplecompensatingcableavailable.Althoughthisismadeofdifferentmaterialstothethermocoupleitself,andthethermocoupleextensioncable,thematerialsarespeciallyselectedtobehavejustlikethethermocouplematerialsoverarestrictedrangeoftemperatures.Thisrangecorrespondstothetemperaturerangeseenby"normal"wiring.

Compensatingcable(ofthecorrecttype)isfinetouse,butisn'treallysomethingwearelikelytocomeacrosswithbasemetaltypeKorNthermocouplesbecausetheextensioncableisaboutthesamepriceasthecompensatingcable.

Inshortstickwithextensioncableanduseonlyconnectorsmadetoworkwiththecorrecttypeofthermocouple.

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inthecontrolbox?

Imighthavereadanopinionthatmanyconnectionscanaffectthereadingaccuracyoritcouldhavebeenmyimagination..

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