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STATE OF ALABAMA

DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION

AND NATURAL RESOURCES

ADVISORY BOARD MEETING

March 10, 2012

Pages 1 through 119

PREPARED BY:Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, PC

Suite 505 - 500 Interstate Park Drive

Montgomery, AL 36109Phone: 334.263.4455

Fax: 334.263.9167

E-mail: [email protected]

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ADCNR Advisory Board Meeting

March 10, 2012

334.263.4455

Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 1STATE OF ALABAMA DEPARTMENT OFCONSERVATION AND NATURAL RESOURCESADVISORY BOARD MEETINGState Capitol AuditoriumMontgomery, AlabamaMarch 10, 2012* * * * * * * * * * * * *TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

* * * * * * * * * * * * *Proceedings taken before TracyeSadler Blackwell, Certified Court Reporter, ACCRNo. 294, and Commissioner for the State of Alabamaat Large, at the State Capitol Auditorium,Montgomery, Alabama, on March 10, 2012, commencingat approximately 9:01 a.m.
http://www.outdooralabama.com/about/board/03-10-2012%20DCNR%20Advisory%20Board.pdfhttp://www.outdooralabama.com/about/board/03-10-2012%20DCNR%20Advisory%20Board.pdfhttp://www.outdooralabama.com/about/board/03-10-2012%20DCNR%20Advisory%20Board.pdfhttp://www.outdooralabama.com/about/board/03-10-2012%20DCNR%20Advisory%20Board.pdfhttp://www.outdooralabama.com/about/board/03-10-2012%20DCNR%20Advisory%20Board.pdfhttp://www.outdooralabama.com/about/board/03-10-2012%20DCNR%20Advisory%20Board.pdf

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455

Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 21* * * * * * * * * * * * *2BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:3Mr. Dan L. Moultrie, Chairman4Mr. N. Gunter Guy, Jr., Commissioner

Mr. John McMillan5Mr. Bill HatleyDr. Bob Shipp6Mr. Austin AinsworthDr. Warren Strickland7Mr. Raymond Jones, Jr.Dr. Gary Lemme8Mr. W. Grant LynchMr. T.J. Bunn, Jr.910* * * * * * * * * * * * *1112INDEX13Call to Order

314Invocation315Introduction of Board Members4

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16Approval of Minutes of Last Meeting617Public Hearing

718Old Business9419New Business10920Date and Location of Next Advisory Board 11721

Meeting2223

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 31CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: The March 10, 2012,2meeting of the Conservation Advisory3Board will come to order. I'd like to4welcome everyone to Montgomery, Alabama,5again. The board is glad you're able to6

be here today. The invocation today7will be given by Commissioner John8McMillan. Commissioner McMillan.9COMMISSIONER McMILLAN: Our Gracious Heavenly

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10Father, we thank you for this beautiful11day. We thank you for the opportunity12

to gather here to consider the many13important aspects that we are14responsible for. We pray that you will15be with everybody here today, that the16words of our mouths and meditations of17

our hearts will be acceptable in thy18sight. Be with us while we're here19together and then again as we take our20separate ways departing for home, that21we might have safe travels and return to22our families. We pray that you will be

23with us, bless us and keep us. In

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 41

Christ's name, Amen.2(Response from audience.)3CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Commissioner4McMillan.

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5The next order of business is the6introduction of the board members.7

First I'd like to introduce our8Commissioner of Conservation,9Commissioner Gunter Guy.10Next I would like to introduce our11Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Curtis12

Jones, who's sitting by my daughter that13attends again. She's probably attended14as many advisory board meetings as most15people. Ashley, we're glad to have you16here -- or her "Rick and Bubba" name,17Ellie May Clanton.

18Next I would like to introduce19Alabama's Agriculture Commissioner,20Commissioner John McMillan.21COMMISSIONER McMILLAN: Good morning.22CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Our other ex-officio

23member here today is Dr. Gary Lemme from

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Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 51the Alabama Extension Service.2

Dr. Lemme.3Next I would like to introduce -- we4have -- our new District 7 board member5has been appointed. It is T.J. Bunn.6T.J., if you would raise a hand.7

T.J. lives in Tuscaloosa and brings8a wealth of knowledge to his position.9He is a 2004 graduate of the University10of Alabama. So if y'all would give T.J.11a hand.12Next I would like to start down at

13the end with Mr. Grant Lynch and let14each district member give their name and15what district they represent.16Mr. Lynch.17MR. LYNCH. I'm Grant Lynch. I'm

18Congressional District Number 3.19MR. BUNN: I'm T.J. Bunn. I represent20Congressional District Number 7.21MR. JONES: Raymond Jones, Congressional

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22District Number 5.23DR. STRICKLAND: Warren Strickland,

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 61Congressional District Number 5.2DR. SHIPP: Bob Shipp, Congressional District

3Number 1.4MR. AINSWORTH: Austin Ainsworth,5Congressional District Number 4.6MR. HATLEY: I'm Dan Moultrie.7No. My name is Bill Hatley, and I8represent District 1.9CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: I think y'all all know10Mr. Hatley has got as long a tenure as11anybody on this board and consistently12you have heard lies out of his mouth.13

Thank you for all the board members14in attendance today. There are two15board members not here today.16The next order of business is the

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17approval of the February 4th, 2012,18Advisory Board Minutes. Are there any19

changes to the minutes?20(No response.)21CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: If not, the minutes stand22approved as read.23The next order of business is the

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 71Commissioner's comments. Commissioner2Guy.3COMMISSIONER GUY: I really have none today.4CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: No comments. Okay. Very5good, sir.6The next order of business is the7public hearing. When your name is8

called, please go to the microphone,9give your name and subject you wish to10speak on. I'll remind you that you may11only speak at the time that you are

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12called and that any interference will13not be tolerated.14

The next order of -- the first15speaker -- Betsy, did you give me --16here we go. I've got it.17Mr. Avery Bates. Mr. Bates.18MR. BATES: Good morning. Now, if you follow19

me --20CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Bates, turn that21microphone on, please, sir. Flip that22switch if that's what the problem is.23(Brief interruption.)

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 81MR. BATES: How about that?2CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: That's a lot better. And3

speak into the microphone for Tracye, if4you would, please, sir.5MR. BATES: All right. My name is Avery6Bates. I'm vice-president of Organized

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7Seafood Association, a long-time8commercial fisherman. In fact, I wore9

this body out with commercial fishing.10Many things has come to our11attention over the last number of years,12especially the last two years. Several13gamefish status has been made -- or14

proposed over the last couple of years,15pompano at the latest. Last year it was16sheepshead, and then we had Spanish17mackerel.18As you know, these fish don't only19belong to the commercial fishermen.

20They belong to everybody in the state of21Alabama. And as you see -- and if y'all22got some of the e-mails and stuff the23CCA put out -- I didn't give y'all a

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 91copy of this, but it says the

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2gillnetters are really doing a number on3pompano. As you saw, Mr. Ainsworth -- I4

faxed you the actual fax -- not true.5Gillnetters is not killing a majority of6the pompano or harvesting it.7These seafoods are commerce.8If you read Article 1, Section 8 of the9

U.S. Constitution, many times our10commerce has been hampered by11special-interest groups. We do handle12seafoods. In fact, we fed many of y'all13at the Seafood Bash good healthy14seafood, flounder. That come from

15commercial fishermen, not recreational16fishermen.17We've fed millions of pounds of18seafood across this country and around19the world, and it is our duty to have

20access to that so the public can have21access through us. This is law229-12-125. We are the access to the23people in Huntsville, Tuscaloosa -- by

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Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 101the way, we fed thousands of people in2Tuscaloosa with good healthy seafood3during the tornados. We enjoy doing4that. We enjoy our job.

5Remember, our constitution also6says -- the state constitution -- we're7entitled to, what, in Article 35,8Section -- Article 1, Section 35 of the9Alabama Constitution: We're entitled to10life, liberty, and property, that11property being seafoods. 9-12-20 says12that seafoods are the property of the13state to be held in trust for, who, the14people of the state.15

We supply the people. Do not deny16the people access of any one fish. We17are not hurting the fish. The state18manages them. That is their

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19responsibility.20MS. JONES: Time.21

MR. BATES: This is something that we want to22continue to do. If y'all have any23questions about the stats or this

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Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 111proposal by the special interest, let me2know and I will answer them if I can.3CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Bates.4The next speaker will be Arthur5Colean.6MR. COLEAN: Good morning, gentlemen. I'm7Arthur Colean. I'm a gillnetter from8Baldwin County. And it's plain to see9from what you see in the paper, the10

numbers, tourism, the sportfishing11industry, that we haven't hurt12anything. They're flourishing. And13there's no reason to put us through

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14this. What we need is more time with15the pompano.16

We all know what this is. We all17know that this is the CCA with their18employees or cohorts, whatever, just19trying to drill another little hole in20our boats. We're already dying. We're21

going out. There will be no more22licenses issued. They go when we die.23This is just more or less us on the --

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 121our deathbed and them hopping up on us2and kicking us a couple of more times.3There's no use.4And we need more time. We have a5

little narrow strip of beach that we can6fish. We're good to maybe a7quarter-mile out. We have the three8months after the fish are gone. We have

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9October, November, and December. The10fish are leaving in October. They have11

them 12 months a year. And they killed12them last year. They kill them every13year.14It doesn't say catch pompano. It15doesn't say catch your limit. It's pile16

up on pompano. Last year they were17riding around with coolers full trying18to sell them to the fish markets, to the19fish houses, the same thing they don't20want us to do.21It's not right. And we hope you see

22it our way and let us to continue to23catch these. Because, I mean, there's

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.

Page 131people all across this entire country2who they and their ancestors has made3all -- the hard-working tax-paying.

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4They've paid all the contributions and5even sacrificed to make this country6

what it is, and they are just as worthy7and -- of these products as anybody that8lives along this coast.9It's -- it wouldn't be fair to the10American citizens, the consumers. It's11

not fair to the producers, and it's12nothing but greed. We know what it is.13We know where it's coming from. And we14just hope you see it our way and do the15right thing.16I mean, somewhere, I know, in your

17life you've heard when you were younger,18you know, it's not right to take19something from somebody just because20you're bigger than they are. Don't go21take that kid's lunch money because

22you're bigger than they are and you can23do it. You know, you've heard it. And

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March 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 141

you've probably told your kids or your2grandkids. And that's exactly what this3is.4And I don't know how they can come5and do something like this on Saturday6

and then go to church on Sunday and7think about how good they are. I mean,8we know what it was. We didn't -- you9know, you just didn't say cast your1012-foot surf rods over the side of the11boat. You should catch fish. We know

12how it went down. You know, just do the13right thing. That's all we ask. Thank14you.15CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Colean.16The next speaker is Ricky Collier.

17Mr. Dean, can you come up and18approach the chair, please?19Go ahead, Mr. Collier.20MR. COLLIER: I'm a commercial gillnet

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21fisherman from Coden.22The pompano Mr. Shipp throws up.23

Pompano is closed from -- I mean, it's

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 151open from September to August (sic)

231st. The run of pompano is right now.3They're catching pompano on the beaches4now. From now until August is the main5run of pompano. I don't even own a6pompano net.7I mean, I'm going to ask all of8y'all -- I have to show 50 percent of my9income every year to own a gillnet10license. Do y'all have to show any kind11of amount of money to another man, to12

another person to show when it ain't13their business?14I'm the only commercial license --15like the dog hunters that everybody

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16permits here. I have to show what I17make. And it's not going here. I have18

to spend it on gillnets. I have to19spend it on -- I mean, I pick thousands20of pounds of catfish if I make a mistake21in the summertime, and then they take22and they take and they take.23

It ain't but like 80 of us left.

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 161And you can go on YouTube and look at2this and look at that. But you got3farmers with farms that's got sons4that's going to raise that farm with5them, and my son can't even fish with6me. When my license -- when I die, that7

license dies too. GCA rod and reel,8hook-and-liner, it'll be going. Kids9will be going. My son will never be10able to go and do what I did, my

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11grandfather did, his grandfather, all12because of I hate you and you hate me.13

So on the pompano deal, nobody gets14efficient data on the pompano because we15don't catch them in the heart of the16season. We catch mackerel. And just17like in the newspaper, we started18

catching a few skipjack, ladyfish. Now19they put in there, well, we killing20them, too, now. It's always something,21add on and add on and add on.22I do this for a living. I don't go23on the weekends to go hunting or

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 171recreational killing -- no. This is my2

livelihood. I feed my kids. This is3all I do. I love it just like everybody4else loves what they do.5But the pompano deal, you can't get

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6sufficient data. Because I don't even7own a pompano net. You can't catch8

them. They gone. Just like now. They9catching them right now. Can't catch10them because it's closed. So, I mean,11you can't catch a fish when it's a12closed season. So that's all I got to13

say.14CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Collier.15The next speaker is Dan Kolenich.16MR. KOLENICH: Good morning. I'd like to17thank the board for giving me a few18minutes to talk to you.

19My name is Dan Kolenich, and I am a20fishing guide. I've been earning my21living as a full-time guide for 1322years.23CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Speak into the microphone,

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1please, Mr. Kolenich.2MR. KOLENICH: I've been earning my living as3

a fishing guide for 13 years now. And4when I look back over those 13 years,5who would have guessed, any of you, 136years ago that we would have such a7short season on snapper, grouper would8

be regulated, and all the other fish9that have been regulated to my business10and to recreational fishermen.11With that in mind, the commercial12industry has been regulated for red13snapper. Their quotas set the limit.

14However, the gillnetters do not have any15limit on their catches and takes. And16so I'm asking for you to consider -- I17realize this pompano is just one small18fish in a very local area. It's very

19important this time of year when they20migrate through our Alabama waters that21we start to protect our species.22You know, the main reason I've been

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23told why the recreational limits keep

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March 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 191getting smaller and smaller is because2overfishing has reduced the number of3fish that are out there, and that's what

4we have to do to protect those species5for our future generations. And so6if -- we realize that with the limits on7redfish and speckled trout. You know,8ten years ago there weren't any limits9on flounders, but now there are and we10accept those limits. And that's so that11my son can take his son fishing and have12the ability to take him to catch13flounder and, right now, pompano as14

well.15And so it's -- it's in your hands to16make a very tough decision. You know,17myself and the gillnetters, this isn't

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18anything personal. They make their19living on the water the same way I do.20

And I used to have offshore permits to21fish for snapper. I used to be able to22go catch red snapper in January and23February within three miles of the beach

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March 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 201in my small boat. I can't do that2anymore. I've sold my offshore permits3because I have to go beyond the limit4that my insurance company will insure my5boat of 20 miles to catch red snapper6during the time the season is in.7These things have impacted me8greatly. And, again, I -- I can't9

stress enough that I really realize this10is a tough decision for you to make.11It's a hardship on everybody. But we12have to make tough decisions and do

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13difficult things in order to preserve14our resources for our future15

generations. Thank you.16CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Kolenich.17The next speaker is Christopher18Vecsey.19MR. VECSEY: Thanks for hearing me today,20

Board. My name is Chris Vecsey. I work21at Sam's Bait & Tackle in Orange Beach,22Alabama. I feel like I'm here to23represent not only tackle shops but

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 211really any kind of store along the Gulf2Coast that deals with fishing tackle3sales or caters to recreational fishing4

along the beach.5Obviously, I'm in support of the6gamefish status on pompano being7changed. I think what it is, is it's

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8not a personal thing, whether it's9commercial or recreation, as much as10

determining the greater value of the11species. And I think there's no doubt12that pompano generate more income, more13interest on the recreational level than14they do commercial.15

Yeah, I've been working in a tackle16shop for ten years. You know, I've seen17how much money people spend throughout18the winter, especially our snowbirds.19They're important to our economy during20the winter, during our slow season.

21Pompano is one of the main targets. And22even despite that, you know, I'm in the23store, you know, anywhere from five to

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012

334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 221seven days a week. And, you know, I2hear the reports. I hear the catches.

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3And it seems that pompano are still,4even on a recreational level, taken in5

very small quantities -- maybe not by6all. And, of course, you're going to7have some that follow the limits and8some that don't. But, in general,9they're still taken in smaller10

quantities.11When you look at it that way, this12isn't the typical attack on gillnets13that -- you know, of course, you hear14from CCA and stuff like that. And my15views, of course, differ from theirs.

16I'm just looking at the greater value,17I guess you'd say. And I'm not saying18that the gillnets need to stop along19beaches altogether, but I do think that20there should be some proposed limits as

21far as how close they can bring their22nets into the beach. I think there23should be a distance barrier to protect

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Page 231those, you know, valuable surf species2including pompano.3I also feel that having those nets,4in closing, not only are you going to5

have more of a bycatch of those species,6but it's also kind of almost more of a7negative image on the beach. I think8that in order to protect the image,9which is what -- you know, the image is10everything for our local economy. We11are a tourist-based industry. I think12we need to keep those nets a little13further off the beach. Like I said, not14to stop gillnetting. I'm not, you know,15on necessarily that bandwagon. But I do

16think we need to set some distance17barriers so that they're not, you know,18intentionally or, you know, accidentally19

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catching that species. So I just think20it's a better value as a -- from a21recreation standpoint. That's really

22all I have to say.23CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Vecsey.

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Page 241The next speaker is Bill Arant.2MR. ARANT: Good morning, gentlemen. I'm Bill3Arant. I am the state chairman of the4CCA this year and would like to very5much urge you all to make -- give6pompano gamefish status.7We feel that this is a way to help8the stocks build. I know on the Florida9side they're beginning to return, and I10think Alabama is getting some

11(inaudible) from this. And this is not12in opposition of gillnet fishing. Just13if they're after the Spanish, then, you14

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know, leave them be because the -- just15slightly further offshore and let the16pompano survive and be available for

17everyone, our children and grandchildren18alike.19The economic impact of the surf20fishermen that especially come in the21wintertime, our snowbirds, is

22significant, as the gentleman just23mentioned. And these people come back

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 251year after year. And I would hope that2you all would grant this gamefish status3to the pompano. I think it will be good4for our state and good for the5resource.

6I've got some letters here that were7written by some of our board members8from Birmingham. If I could just pass9

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them to you. Thank you very much.10CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you very much,11Mr. Arant.

12The next speaker is Manley Cummins.13MR. CUMMINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and14thank you for this opportunity to15address the board.16I stand before you as a pompano

17fisherman, a recreational pompano18fisherman. I had the occasion to catch19my first pompano back in about 1963 or20'64 in Panama City, fishing very21extensively there and at Orange Beach,22

Alabama, starting in the late '70s and23early '80s. I fished inshore almost

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1exclusively, and pompano was one of my2favorite fish. I had the good luck of3catching the state record in 1992. I've4

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also fished for the fish in Louisiana5and throughout the panhandle of6Florida.

7I have seen what happens when the8effort on the beaches for commercial9fishing is stopped. The state of10Florida in 1994 did away with their11netting. As a result, we had a lot of

12pressure on our beaches. I did a lot of13fishing at night out of Orange Beach14back in the '90s. I saw a lot of the15commercial landings. I saw a lot of16pompano on the dock.17

It has changed somewhat. I think18our fish -- fishing for pompano has19improved. I don't think it's as strong20as it needs to be. I think a lot of it21is the collateral effect of maybe some22

fish from Florida moving in to Alabama.23But I do believe that pompano is a

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334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 271very unique fish because it's available

2to the shore angler. You don't have to3have an expensive boat. You don't have4to burn a lot of gas. You take a5double-hook rig like this and hook it6onto your average bass rod with a lead

7and throw it out there and you can catch8one.9Unfortunately, pompano is uniquely10susceptible to overfishing. That's11because you can get in your boat and run12

down the beach in very shallow water and13the pompano will skip across the top14like stones. And it's quite easy for a15net boat -- and they do it under the16law, now -- to stop at the ends of the17

pompano skipping, drop the net around18them. And within a hundred yards of the19beach probably 90 percent of the pompano20will be in that zone a hundred to 20021

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yards out. So they are very susceptible22to net fishing.23Talk a little bit about the value.

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 281Chris addressed that. I know probably a2

lot of y'all get down to our beaches and3you see the beach fishermen out there.4And their primary species if they were5asked what fish they would like to6catch, it would be a pompano. I can't7tell you how many times this time of8year I respond to people who send me9requests for how to catch these fish.10And, you know, you just got to be able11to get access to the beach and you got12to have fish there to be able to catch

13them.14So I would ask the board to consider15three things. I would ask you to16

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consider the economics of it. And17that's been addressed with the hundreds18and thousands of beach anglers that come

19down here each year who just want a20simple way to enjoy our beach and maybe21catch a few fish to take home.22MS. JONES: Time.23MR. CUMMINS: And consider the equities and

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 291the environmental aspects of it. Thank2you very much.3CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you very much,4Mr. Cummins.5The next speaker is Terry Moralis.6MR. MORALIS: Commissioner Guy and Chairman7Moultrie, Board, I appreciate it. I'm

8here on the pompano bill. I'm a9commercial fisherman. I'm10vice-president of ASA. I'm also a11

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member of OSA.12We -- from what I'm hearing so far,13it's a moot deal. We are off the

14beaches during their prime season. We15cannot fish for pompano till September.16All the prime -- August, July when the17forces are going to be there, we can't18fish pompano on the beach. We can't

19even touch them on the beach. It's20closed to us a quarter-mile out.21I don't understand why they say22we're on the beaches. We're not on the23beach except for nighttime from six

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 301o'clock till six o'clock for mackerel,2ladyfish. Daytime we're not on the

3beaches when they do their4sportfishing. We are not there.5And as far as the economic part of6

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fisherman said it's getting better2already. If it's getting better, we're3not hurting anything. That's common

4sense there.5I mean, I understand why they want6it. They want to take it away from us7so they can have it strictly them.8We -- you know, I don't -- I don't stand

9to make a load of money off of pompano10because I don't fish them like I used11to, but I do make enough out of them12every now and then that when my13granddaughter needs $200 to pay her14

light bill, I can give it to her. It15don't kill you to do it.16If you restrict me to just certain17fishes and them fish ain't there --18because sometimes the pompano is there19

when nothing else is there. You know,20there's no ladyfish, no mackerel. Some21reason or another, riptide and stuff, it22changes around.23

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As far as the peak season, they've

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334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 321got it already. We are not on the2beaches during that peak season as far3as the sports are concerned. And as far4

as the value of the fish, the only5reason we're -- we don't have the value6of the fish if we're not able to fish7them when they're there.8CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Dr. Strickland, would you9like to address the speaker?10DR. STRICKLAND: Actually, Mr. Chairman, I'm11trying to have a little more clarity of,12I guess, the controversy with pompano13fishing.14MR. MORALIS: Yes, sir.

15DR. STRICKLAND: Do we have any idea of the16commercial impact -- and this is17probably for one of the marine18

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biologists or -- that commercial fishing19is having on the pompano?20CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Blankenship, would you

21come to the microphone.22DR. STRICKLAND: I'm just trying to get a23little more insight of the controversy.

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334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 331MR. BLANKENSHIP: Sure. The average landings2since about 2001 are around between four3and 5,000 pounds a year for the4commercial pompano fishery. And it5is -- like Mr. Moralis and some others6said, that the closed fishing season is7from January through Labor Day, and they8are allowed a five-percent bycatch9during that time. If they're fishing

10for other species and they catch11pompano, they can keep up to five12percent by weight of whatever they're13

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catching. And those have been a14minuscule amount of the landings over15the past ten years.

16DR. STRICKLAND: And I guess my question,17then, from the biologist's standpoint,18do you feel that the limited commercial19fishing that's performed on the pompano20at this time -- is it having a

21significant impact?22MR. BLANKENSHIP: From the -- strictly from23the biological aspect of it and working

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 341with our biological section, it2doesn't -- you know, it's not -- it3doesn't appear -- it's not as big a part4of the fishery that we have. You know,

5it's around four to 5,000 pounds a year,6and it's not having a tremendous7negative impact on the fisheries.8

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DR. STRICKLAND: Thank you.9CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Lynch, did you have a10question?

11MR. LYNCH: I had a question for somebody.12In Florida if they don't have13gillnets anymore -- and we've got a14chart here that says there's quite a15bit -- and then they've got a lot of,

16you know footage of beaches -- but how17do they catch their pompano down there18commercially?19CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Blankenship, could you20come back to the microphone?21

MR. BLANKENSHIP: You may be better able to22answer that.23CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Either of y'all can answer

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Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 351it.2MR. BLANKENSHIP: They have a -- they do allow3

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140 foot on the deeper end. You get deep2in a hurry.3And most of the pompano they catch4over here is caught on the beaches. I'm5not lying about that. But, like I say,

6during the peak season we're off the7beaches. If they give it back to us8like we had before -- we used to catch9good -- me and my brother used to catch10good pompano. When they -- when Vernon11

took that away from us in -- oh, it was12back in the '90s or maybe 2000,13something like that -- it put us to14where it wasn't feasible for us to15target them no more.16

Nobody's harvesting pompano for any17length of time anymore. You got that18one little month or two. Then they're19gone anyway. And that's what few fish20

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is caught -- most of the fish that's21caught is two or three pounds, four or22five pounds, eight or ten pounds when

23you're catching mackerel and stuff, you

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know.2But if you take a thousand dollars3away from me, that's a lot of my4paycheck at the end of the year. You5know, it means a lot to me. It means a6lot to my grandkids, my kids. Anybody7in our family that needs money, somehow8or another -- they come to me for some9reason or another. Seems like it10anyway. And when they do this, if you11take that little bit away from me, you

12know, that means a lot. That's money I13can't give them if they need it. It's14good money spent right here in the15

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course. And I've been in states where11they had legalized baiting. And I know12this board has always relied very

13heavily on the conservation department14biologists on what is good biology and15what is not, and I really encourage you16to do that.17But I've seen some things with

18legalized baiting, and I've got some19really good friends in some of these20states. And it's really terrible21because one of my good friends who is a22state biologist in Louisiana, I found23

that he was hunting over some bait --

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 391well, it's not really bait because it

2was legal. And I was surprised. And,3you know, I confronted him about it.4And he said, I do not like it, but if I5

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don't do it, I won't do anything because6my neighbors are all doing it.7I went to Oklahoma this past year.

8Got a good friend there. They just9legalized it just in the last year. And10I found out that he had corn out, and I11was really surprised. He's a retired12state conservation officer. And the

13same question -- the same answer he gave14me was, you know, I don't like it. It15makes me feel bad. But if I don't put16it out, I won't have anything because my17neighbors are pouring it out.18

So it's just not a good thing. And19I really would hope that you would20continue to rely on the state21conservation department. If they should22say biologically it's sound and23

something we should do, I guarantee you

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Page 401I would change my idea of my opinion2about it.

3The same thing with extending the4deer season that's been talked about5lately. There's some things that a lot6of these folks in this room probably7don't realize is that there are not

8hardly any states that are open in9February. If we continue -- if we keep10this season open in to February, boy,11are we ever going to be a target for12out-of-state leasers. And there's a lot13

of folks in this room that lease land,14and they're going to be competing with15money that comes out of south Louisiana16and a lot of other places that are going17to be able to extend their deer season18

considerably.19One more thing I want to talk about20real briefly -- and I've given you --21there's a paper there that goes into22

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more detail about this stuff. And I23know I've been at board meetings before

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 411where they talked about feedback on the2permit system on dog hunting. And I3

didn't check that, but I want to address4that because I've talked to somebody5here.6I'm in a -- I hunt in the county7where that is -- where a permit system8is in effect. We had good cooperation9from our local conservation officer. We10didn't have a -- the dog hunters there11are not really bad people, but we always12had dogs on us. And we complained like13we're supposed to do. Didn't --

14didn't -- of course, didn't molest any15dogs, do anything like that. We16complained to our conservation officer.17

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He worked with the club that we're18having the most problems with and told19them they would be losing their permit

20if they --21MS. JONES: Time.22MR. McCARTNEY: And to end this, I'll say that23they decided not to apply for a permit

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 421and it was wonderful. Thank you very2much.3CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. McCartney.4The next speaker is Don Abercrombie.5MR. ABERCROMBIE: My name is Don Abercrombie.6I'm from Clayton, Alabama, Barbour7County. I bought a valuated catfish8processing plant where we sell

9100-percent U.S.-source products, and we10also use the logo -- the logo from11Organized Seafood for our business now.12

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So I want to discuss today the need13to create a stimulus for an existing14industry and that's hunting. The

15stimulus is hunting the perceived rut.16And that will stabilize and it will17expand the hunting in Alabama and, if18necessary, just Barbour County.19Proposal is simple. We want it for

20Alabama or south Alabama, because we21have a big game in this fight, but at22least for Barbour County as a pilot23program. We want to extend gun season

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 431for two weeks, February the 1st through2the 13th. We want four-points on one3side. We had the three-points on one

4side, which has become a really huge5success story because of the weights and6everything we've seen associated with7

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that program that y'all put in place8about five years ago. And if we need to9give two weeks back for the small game

10hunters, we'd like for it to be from11December the 3rd through the 16th.12A recent study shows that 82 percent13of the nonresident hunters who have14leases in Alabama are leasing from

15Montgomery southward. For every one of16the people that come in this restaurant17with out-of-state leases, we have 1518more that are coming from other parts of19the state. So what we're seeing is it's20

not just an out-of-state issue here.21Now, the rut that y'all have here on22this map that you're showing, the late23season rut, the perceived rut or

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March 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 441whatever, 82 percent of those are in2

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south Alabama. And these economies need3the money, these gas stations,4everybody, you know, and also the

5Barbour County Management Area, which6we're familiar with. If you had two or7three 2,000, you know, per three-day8hunt hunts there, can you imagine how9much money it would be for the state

10coffers.11These hunters want to hunt the rut,12and our area needs an economy that is13created in attracting and retaining the14lease hunters. We want to do this in a15

biologically friendly way, and that's16four-points on one side. And it's17important. People are more interested18than ever in a trophy deer. So the19perception of being able to hunt the rut20

in Barbour County will cause them to let21the young ones walk and then be able to22look for that trophy buck during the23time that they're available.

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Page 451So it's pretty simple, pretty, you2know, straightforward. And so3basically -- I do want to say something4to John McMillan. If you're looking at5

this stimulus part of the deal -- you6know, it took me five years to convince7Auburn University Entomology Department8to spray for boll weevil at the two-leaf9stage. You see how many jobs that the10boll weevil eradication program that11passed in '85 made for that industry.12In 1997 I introduced a proposal for13a time-of-use rate with Alabama Power in14west Alabama to put it in the catfish15industry. And now, then, you see

16Alabama Power with a lower rate against17Black Warrior over there trying to get a18better rate. And so this stimulus has19

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moved the industry from the Mississippi20Delta toward west Alabama.21And currently we're in a -- my

22company --23MS. JONES: Time.

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Page 461CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Abercrombie, let me2address something before you leave the3microphone. Mr. Abercrombie.4For the board's knowledge, in5Barbour County since 1997 our department6has over 150 number of deer collected.7The average date of conception runs from8November 22 to the latest being9February 4th. Of all the other five --10I believe it's five -- samplings, all of

11them are before the end of the season.12Now, we understand a lot of times13what -- you may be looking for to hunt14

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into February, but, again, I think this15board needs to see solid facts that16there's a biological need to go into

17February.18MR. ABERCROMBIE: Well, the thing that we're19seeing there, we have so many outfitters20in the area. And one outfitter, you21know, he said it would increase his like

22$68,000 just in revenue for that 1323days. We have another one that says 40

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 471hunts would be $5,000 for --2CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: I understand that, sir,3but, again, the biological need --4emotion should not make deer seasons.5Biological data -- Mr. Hatley, you had

6something.7MR. HATLEY: My point is you people do not8seem to be -- you're concerned more9

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about the economical impact than you are10about the resource.11MR. ABERCROMBIE: No. What we are in Barbour

12County -- we've been doing this for 2013years. I've -- a lot of people are14familiar with Guice Slawson and the big15landowners there. They've actually been16managing their deer herd year around for

1720 -- you know, for the last 20 years.18And so we're looking at a lot more19biologically friendly area than what you20see.21So we want to have programs to where22

we get your top biologists to come in23and actually put on programs so that

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1they can show how to do the post rut2biologically friendly type work, like3the -- you know, and not doing this --4

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you know, what you're seeing on the5other -- on the other part of the deal.6CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Dr. Strickland, you had a

7comment.8DR. STRICKLAND: I have to agree that, you9know, we have to have sound biological10data to make those decisions. The buck11limit that we put in place has already

12had a tremendous impact on the quality13of deer that we harvested in the state.14And the greatest amount of stress is15post-rut stress. That's when you have16the largest amount of your buck17

mortality. And I really feel -- and the18biologists do as well -- extending that19season into February is going to put a20significant amount of stress here on the21bucks and it's just going to increase22

the mortality.23MR. ABERCROMBIE: Well, in Barbour County and

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334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 491the people I've talked to -- we had a

2meeting. We had 200 people at the3meeting. And everybody -- nobody had a4problem with going from three bucks to5two bucks. I didn't put it on here6because I feel like that's your issue.

7But in Barbour County, Alabama, the8main rut this year was the 6th through9the 10th of February. And whether it's10real or perceived, then if we go and we11can market this, then what we'll be able12

to do is be able to increase the, you13know, jobs in Alabama.14CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Lynch, you had a15comment.16Did you have a -- okay.17

Thank you, Mr. Abercrombie. Thank18you.19The next speaker is Larry Dillard.20MR. DILLARD: Thank you, Board, for allowing21

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us to come before you today and speak.22My name is Larry Dillard, and I live in23north Shelby County. And I'm on the

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 501county commission there. And we are2

grateful that the Forever Wild Board has3arranged for a 99-year lease on the4Cahaba Wildlife Management Area so that5our citizens will have a place to hunt6forever. A 99-year lease is a long7time.8We also appeared before the Forever9Wild Board to get them to buy the State10Cattle Ranch down in Greensboro. That's11going to be dedicated to youth hunting12and to folks with handicaps to hunt and

13a place for all venues to have field14trials. And we have worked hard to get15four beagle enclosures of 65 acres each16

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me start go rabbit hunting with him.12And I've got 69 years of rabbit-hunting13experience. So if you can add, you know

14I'm 74 now.15I enjoyed that so much. And I16raised my sons up and my son-in-law17rabbit hunts with me and I've got18grandsons rabbit hunting with me. And I

19want to encourage you.20I've seen the deer season extended21from January the 1st through January the2215th and then from January the 15th23through the end of January. Now, if you

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 521go beyond that into February, you are2just going to execute a death knell for

3the small game hunter. I'm not just4talking about rabbit hunters. I'm5talking about all of the squirrel6

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hunters and the coon hunters and the7folks that still hunt opossums, and8that's coon dogs that can't quite make

9it. And so I want you to know that we10have got to save something for the rest11of the folks.12Now, all of us small game hunters13are not blessed to have big hunting

14areas that are commercial hunting areas.15MS. JONES: Time.16MR. DILLARD: Just one more second.17CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: If you would sum it up,18please, sir.19

MR. DILLARD: I will sum it up.20We cannot afford the land leases and21all that. But, now, we do get invited22by a lot of those deer clubs to hunt in23February because most of us have dogs

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that don't run deer. We don't tolerate2that stuff. And we have dogs that don't3run deer. So I can rabbit hunt every

4day in February on these deer leases5because they've got people in those6clubs that like to rabbit hunt. But you7cannot hunt next to one of them or close8to them any other time because some of

9them will shoot your dogs.10Gentlemen, I'm begging you to really11consider holding the deer-hunting time12down to where it is now at the end of13January and at least give us poor people14

one month to hunt. Thank you very much.15CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you.16The next speaker is Jack Bradford.17MR. BRADFORD: I'm Dr. Jack Bradford. I live18in Millbrook. That's in Elmore County.19

I'm speaking on behalf of the Alabama20Safari Club today.21The Safari Club really wants to22applaud all of you for the fine job23

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you've done in placing public safety

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334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 541regulations in place. We want safe2hunting throughout all of Alabama. It3is my understanding, however, that the4

board may be considering at a point in5time the placement of stands -- deer6stands on private property. I would --7I would say that that is a private8situation and that what we need to do is9encourage landowners to be cooperative10of other landowners.11In many cases with private property12the avenue marking the property lines13are cleared for maintenance of those14lines and they are cleared so that we

15can have a delineation of where the16property lines are. In many cases those17are the only places for appropriate18

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placement of a stand.19Now, we don't want people shooting20across property lines on someone else's

21property. That's not the right thing to22do. But to place it there may be the23only place where the trees are cleared.

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334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 551It may be the only place where stands2can be placed. So I would ask you to3keep that in mind.4If it deals in the realm of public5safety, I am and SCI is all for those6regulations. But if it's a private7matter, it needs to be settled8privately. Appreciate your thoughts on9that.

10CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Bradford.11The next speaker is Barry Estes.12MR. ESTES: Good morning. Barry Estes. I13

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live over in Prattville. I appreciate14both Mr. Moultries letting me speak here15today.

16That was a joke.17I'm also here wanting to talk about18the boundary rule if it were to come19up.20Bowhunters in Alabama, which I

21represent, we have an urban deer control22program which was created several years23ago at the request of the conservation

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 561department to deal with issues about2subdivisions and deer problems in the3areas. And, obviously, a 50-yard rule4for a bowhunter in an urban deer control

5program would shut it completely down6because you're dealing with close7proximities and everything else in8

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archery. But that's just a rule we9would like to see addressed if it were10to be pursued.

11Once again, I'd like to support12Forever Wild. I hope everybody does. I13got to shoot a couple of pigs this year14down at Lowndes on that new property.15And it's ugly. But it's fun to get out

16there and hunt. It's nice to have a17place to go chase a pig every once in a18while. That's all I have to say. Thank19you.20CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Estes.21

The next speaker is Jim Dye.22MR. DYE: Thank you, Board, for letting me23come up and speak today. My name is Jim

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Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 571Dye. I hunt in Greene County, Alabama.2I am a dog hunter. I hunt with C & W3

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Hunting Club. We've been in business --4not business. We've been a club for5well over 25, 30 years.

6We'd just like to continue hunting7the way we like to hunt, to dog hunt.8We hunt as legal as we can. We abide by9the state rules and do everything we can10to minimize any issues or problems that

11may come up. To my knowledge, we12haven't had any major issues that I'm13aware of.14But we do want to continue doing15what we do. And I want to encourage all16

dog hunters to do the right thing, hunt17the right way, police yourselves, and do18dog hunting the way it ought to be19done. Thank you.20CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Dye.21

The next speaker is Jimmy Fort.22MR. FORT: Good morning. I'm Jimmy Fort from23Butler County. The reason I came up

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1today, I was trying to get from the2horse's mouth, so to speak, what is3going on with the extension of the deer4season controversy back and forth.5And I approach things with an open

6mind here. I'm a hunter. I like to dog7hunt. I'm also president of a 900-acre8still-hunting club. And at the end of9season I've got some beagles that I run10rabbits with. And so it's hard to take11

sides with anyone here because I like it12all.13But I came up here with my mind set14of extension. But the more I hear and15talking out in the lobby of the people16

that when you give something over here,17you're taking from somebody else over18here. And what I do and our members19that's in our still-hunting club, we go20

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to a neighboring dog-hunting club for21the first part of the season and join22them and go dog hunting because that's

23how you kill the deer. The deer are not

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moving in the early part of the season.2A dog will make the deer move. And3you're more -- and, really, in the long4run you have more fun because there's5more people involved, the chase of it,6the gathering up later, what all's going7on.8And my interest is -- and, like I9say, I won't ask y'all to show your10hands, but just think about this: How11many of you here have ever been dog

12hunting? And if you haven't, I would13just suggest this year in your area to14find out of a local dog-hunting club,15

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ask them to go with them for a day to16get the insight of what it's about.17No matter who here is whatever

18issue, there's always two sides one way19or the other. I've done it all, the20still hunting and the dog hunting. I've21dog-hunted for 50 years from a little22kid. I love the chase. I could

23actually put my gun up and just enjoy

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 601the chase. But like I was telling one2of the guys, if I did that, that's when3the old big one would come out and I'd4be like where is my gun, you know.5So I don't -- I'm just glad I'm not6in your position about this. But to let

7you know, I think I've sort of -- from8what I'm seeing, I think we sort of need9to stick with what we got.10

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And on the dog still-hunting issue,11to me, like we've been saying the last12couple of years, cooperation, I think,

13in the still hunters themselves and the14dog hunters themselves. If you really15want to understand it, try to get16together. And what I have seen in the17past, if you'll carry a still-hunter dog

18hunting with you one day -- and I've19seen it more than once -- next weekend20he's back, but, look, he picked up a dog21over the week. Because what it is, they22enjoy it and -- but you -- no matter23

what you do, you want to have -- to be

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 611part of it. So you want your little

2thing to go along with it, whether it's3rabbit hunting or whatever.4So I have trouble criticizing5

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someone else because what I'd be6criticizing, I do the same thing. So I7don't know if I've said anything, but

8the main thing is --9MS. JONES: Time.10MR. FORT: -- I wish y'all would be11open-minded about this and just do the12best you can.

13CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Fort.14The next speaker -- if you'll hold15your applause until the end of the16session, please.17The next speaker is Mr. Giles, Lamar18

Giles.19MR. GILES: Mr. Chairman, Board Members, my20name is Lamar Giles. I'm the21secretary/treasurer of Old Union Point22Hunting Club in east Chilton County,23

Alabama.

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Page 621In the March 12th, 2011, advisory2board meeting you heard complaints from

3three landowners about deer dogs4trespassing on their property. I have5the minutes of that meeting, and I have6read their complaints. I won't say the7gentlemen lied, but they certainly

8embellished the truth.9The truth is these gentlemen bought10land that joins a hunting club that had11been in existence over 30 years when12they purchased the property. There's13

nothing separating the two except the14land line.15Chilton County has approximately16450,000 acres of land. These three17gentlemen have less than 700 acres18

combined. In 2010 the census of Chilton19County had 43,643 residents. Two of the20three people who complained do not21reside in Chilton County or vote in22

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Chilton County. Only one was a citizen23of our county. Yet this board voted

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 631unanimously to put Chilton County on the2dog deer hunting by permit only system.3

There was no mention in their complaints4of any bad conduct or confrontation5between anyone because there hadn't been6any.7Now, next season will be the 40th8year of our club's existence. In those940 years, to my knowledge, we've had one10ticket from the conservation11department. We've been able to co-exist12with landowners and neighbors around our13club, because we're mostly local

14people.15I believe your decision was unfair16to the citizens of our county. You had17

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the authority to put us on the permit18system, and I believe you have the power19to take Chilton County off the permit

20system. And I'm asking you to do so.21Now, as far as the problem with the22dogs and these landowners, if they can't23tolerate a deer dog occasionally

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 641crossing their property, then since2they're the Johnny-come-latelies --3we've been there almost 40 years and4they've been there less than ten. Let5the burden of keeping the dogs off of6their property be theirs. Let them7fence their property.8MS. JONES: Time.

9MR. GILES: That would solve the problem. And10we would appreciate it. Thank you.11CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Giles.12

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The next speaker is Don Knight.13MR. KNIGHT: I'm Don Knight, state president14of the Alabama Dog Hunters Association.

15Dan, just for what it's worth -- and16it'll probably take up a little bit of17my time -- but I've been hunting in18Barbour County for 30 years, and your19dates are within a couple of dates of

20what we see deer going into the rut21every year. And we've had this land for22over 40 years. So just to throw that23out.

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 651Now I'd like to take this2opportunity to thank the Commissioner,3Assistant Commissioner, and all

4concerned on this board for giving5Coffee County a year to get their6problems worked out and get things7

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straightened out. And I'd like to tell8you what we're doing about that.9What we're trying to do, we've got a

10meeting that's trying to be scheduled.11It will be set here shortly. We're12trying to set it to where we can get the13most people there we can. And what14we're trying to do is we're going to set

15up a committee with at least one16committee member from each club in that17county. And we'd like to include18Elmore, if we could, because we don't19think it ought to be shut down by an20

area. If you get a good club coming21back in, you can't open them up if their22area has been closed down. We don't23like the areas -- I think we talked

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March 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 661about all this -- and have club to club2

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to set up the accountability and3everything.4So what they're going to do, when we

5get this committee set up, we'll have a6chairman. Anybody that's got a7complaint and calls Grady or the8conservation department, anything like9that, they can register that complaint

10with that chairman. That chairman will11have a person from those clubs on his12committee. He will talk to them and the13other club members. We will see if it14is a legitimate complaint. If we don't15

think it's a legitimate complaint, we16will make a notation of that and give17you that at the end of the season. If18we think it is a legitimate account --19or complaint, then we will work on that20

as a group and tell you what our21solutions were that we implemented to22stop this complaint from happening23again.

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Page 671That's what we're trying to do in2Coffee, and we would like to have Elmore3County included in that. That's what we4want to do. It's not a foolproof thing,5

but I think it shows that we want to6police our own. We're going to try to7set this up in other counties. There's8a lot of counties out there that need9the permit system. We know it works,10where it's needed, where it's not11needed. We don't think our hunters12ought to be restricted any more than any13other hunter in the woods.14So that's one of the things we're15trying to do to solve the problems in

16Coffee County. And we will continue17this wherever we've got problems. We'll18try to set up a committee and make it19

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work, police our own.20And I would also like to tell you21that our film is not quite ready yet,

22but they -- the people up in Wisconsin23tell me they'll have it for us probably

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Page 681next month. And we'll get it in your2hands before the next meeting where you3can see it and all. He says it's going4to be really good, and they're trying to5do that now.6Please --7MS. JONES: Time.8MR. KNIGHT: Okay. Just consider putting9Elmore County in with Coffee and don't10close down any areas. We'd rather have

11it club-by-club basis accountability.12Thank you.13CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Knight, we appreciate14

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your involvement as a board in the dog15hunting in Alabama. Thank you.16The next speaker is Susan Morrow.

17MS. MORROW: Good morning, Chairman, Members18of the Board. I'm Susan Morrow. I'm19from Mobile County. You know, I'm an20avid dog hunter and I'm also a stalk21hunter.

22I want to thank y'all again for the23extra five days that y'all gave us on

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 691management areas. That was wonderful.2And I'm here again to ask for two more3days on the Upper Delta at the beginning4of the season because usually it's not5wet in there then and we can drive in.

6And I would also like to see another7management area opened for dog hunting.8And I also would like to add that I9

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don't think that deer season needs to be10extended. If you extend it, you will11wind up taking away some of our dog

12days. And it would wind up being like a13split system -- season -- excuse me --14in Mississippi, and that's -- if you've15ever been over there and hunted, it's16very confusing. And I don't think that

17we are at that point to where we need18that yet. So I wish y'all would19consider that. And I know that y'all20will do the right thing on that. Thank21y'all very much.22

CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Ms. Morrow.23The next speaker is Loney Mullinex.

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1MR. MULLINEX: Thank you for this2opportunity. My name is Loney Mullinex,3and I hunt in Greene County. Been4

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hunting in there since 1962, landowner5also. But we are a dog-hunting club --6primarily dog-hunting club. Been doing

7it for years.8We also -- to the small game, we9invite anybody there -- we've had --10like the gentleman said earlier about11getting a stalk hunter there or a still

12hunter. We have converted several,13several still hunters into dog hunters14in the past ten to 15 years.15Our biggest thing, though, is16tradition and our kids. I was raised up17

there, my sons, my -- our members, their18sons and grandsons, granddaughters,19nieces and nephews. What we're asking20is you make real consideration of21leaving the dog hunting alone. Let us22

enjoy what we do the best.23We are working on a system to police

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334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 711our dogs, to track our dogs, to take

2care of our dogs and keep them off, as3much as possible, the landowners next4door to us, to be hospitable to them, to5consider them. But we understand, you6know, they spend a lot of money, too, on

7their hunting places and so we do. But8we want to get along with all of them.9And, like I said, we will work on a plan10to take care of this. Thank you.11CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Mullinex.12

The next speaker is Donald Nelson.13MR. NELSON: Good morning, gentlemen. I'm14Mayor Don Nelson from Creola, Alabama,15and I'm speaking on behalf of Big Rack16Hunting Club in Butler County that's17

been there for 50 years, also, personal18family land in Butler and members'19family land in Butler County.20During the 2010 season I shared last21

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year with the board that I was22recovering from cancer surgery and23chemotherapy. We had two glitches

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 721happen during the 2010 season, and I had2

to come back and stand in front of this3board and tell them and Mr. Hartzog what4I planned to do to correct those5problems when I was absent from a lot of6that season.7We initiated a four-step program to8eliminate the problem. We actually did9two more things. I'm happy to say in at10least six conversations I had last year11with Mr. Mike McNeil, who is a12lieutenant with the conservation

13department in Butler County, in our area14particularly, at the start of the15season, during the middle of the season,16

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end of the season, I said, Mike, did we17have any problems? He said, zero. I18said, Mike, did we have any complaints?

19He said, zero. Mike, did we have any20violations? He said, zero. And I said,21great.22He has my number, my business card,23my cell, my home number. I have his.

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 731We communicated continually. Because2our goal is to have zero problems. We3don't want that. We don't want you to4have to fight this issue every year.5We went beyond that. Well, we --6the communication. Mike has been7invited to hunt with us, come to our

8cookouts at the end and beginning of the9season. He is a regular fixture with10us, which we're glad.11

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We did some other things. This12right here which I'm carrying right13here -- and a lot of clubs is going to

14them, and I just went to it last year --15is a Garmin GPS system, the greatest16thing, I think, since sliced bread. I'm17not a Garmin salesman, but, gentlemen, I18can tell you where my dog is, if he's

19running, where he's been, and where he's20going. I didn't have any dogs out21overnight last year. It helped22tremendously. It's not the end23solution, but it helps tremendously.

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 741And we stress this for our members2there, very -- trying to be proactive is

3what we're trying to do there.4I mentioned we've been in Butler5County for 50 years. We pay over6

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meeting, which I missed, unfortunately.2And he may speak today, which is fine.3But our goal is, is to be a good

4neighbor and to continue to utilize --5to have the privilege to hunt dogs in6Butler County. We want to do that.7One thing in closing I've heard8about the season. I killed zero deer

9the last -- and I don't care. I enjoy10fellowship. I have a three-year-old11grandson --12MS. JONES: Time.13MR. NELSON: -- that I'm going to see today,14

and I want to bring him hunting with me.15Thank you very much.16CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mayor, if the rest of the17mayors in the state would get as18involved as you have, we wouldn't have19

the kind of problems we have. You're20doing a tremendous job. Thank you for21your work.22MR. NELSON: Thank y'all for allowing me to23

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speak, gentlemen. If I can help, please

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334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 761don't hesitate to call.2CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Jones.3MR. JONES: Just out of curiosity, what does a4

system -- GPS system like that per dog5cost?6MR. NELSON: Okay. The collars is $200. Now,7I had to beg my wife and get on her good8side and do a lot of "honey-do's." It9probably cost me 1500 to $2,000. It was10worth it. I've seen deer this year in11front of my dogs. And, like I said,12this helps out. This is the best thing13I've ever seen.14MR. JONES: Is it $200 per dog?

15MR. NELSON: $200 a collar.16MR. JONES: A collar.17MR. NELSON: And about five to $600 for this18

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unit here. Thank you.19CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mayor, thank you so much.20The next speaker is James Akers.

21MR. AKERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name22is James Akers. I live in Covington23County about ten miles north of the

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334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 771Florida state line. I own 80 acres2right in the middle of timber company3land.4Dog hunting was opened up south of584 two years ago. In that two-year time6I've had several problems with dogs7getting over on me. I know dogs do not8know property lines. There's a9difference between true dog hunters and

10these wannabe dog hunters.11The problem is not lying with people12like the gentleman who just spoke and13

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his club. The problem is with the clubs14that do not regulate their members.15They buy dogs right before deer season

16starts. They use these dogs during deer17season. Then they turn them loose.18I've had to put dogs down on my place19because they would just turn them loose20at the end of season.

21Also, night stalk hunting. I call22it night stalkers, the night hunters.23In five years -- I live two-and-a-half

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 781miles off of 331 on a dirt road, and in2five years I've counted between 25 and330 carcasses throwed out, nothing but4the horns cut off of them. This is a

5waste of meat. This is killing the buck6population. In our area where I was7seeing four or five, six eight-points a8

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year, I've seen one this year.9Our biggest problem is enforcement.10I've called the game warden twice. One

11time he showed up for one night patrol12only in that area. I told him the13nights they were hunting. I could even14take him to the place where they're15doing the killing at. But nobody wants

16to listen.17But our biggest problem is18enforcement over this night hunting.19And it's getting ridiculous. They're20cutting the horns off of them, selling21

them to people for knives and stuff like22that, and it's not right. And thank you23for hearing me. Thank you.

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Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 791CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Akers, can you get2with Kevin Dodd and give him that area3

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where those -- that's happening after4the meeting?5MR. AKERS: Yes, sir.

6CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you very much.7The next speaker is Keith Blackburn.8MR. BLACKBURN: Good morning. My name is9Keith Blackburn. I own property in west10Butler County. And right now I'm really

11taken out of my game. I will contradict12everything the mayor just said awhile13ago.14We have had ongoing problems with15that particular hunting club for years16

dating back 30 years or so. I have had17gentlemen arrested on my property for18trespassing. The dog hunting is out of19control there in that part of the20county.21

I presented Mr. Hartzog with a map22in February showing where I've got 1523landowners that support a permit system

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1in Butler County to try to get a handle2on this. I guess people there think I'm3the mayor of the community or4something. But, anyway, they keep5sending me all these complaints.

6One of the main complaints is, is7that we have a two-acre cemetery right8in the middle of some of our property.9And a lot of these older women are10scared to go to the cemetery to visit11

their husbands because they're afraid of12these hunters lined up and down the13road. They throw their dogs in there on14posted properties, and it's just -- it's15out of hand.16

So basically what I'm asking is17please consider a permit system for the18west part of Butler County. Thank you.19CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Blackburn.20

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The next speaker is David Cowan.21MR. COWAN: Good morning. My name is David22Cowan. I'm from Birmingham, Alabama.

23My brother, who is from Tuscaloosa, and

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I own property in northern Greene2County, Alabama. And I'm appearing3before you today to ask that deer4hunting with dogs in north Greene County5be put on the permit system.6The problem that I'm going to7discuss with you today is long-standing,8it is systemic, and it is oppressive.9This morning when I got here I gave your10secretary a packet of information11detailing years of trying to get

12something done about this and to try to13get to a resolution of this. But14because we had no success, I'm here15

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today.16One of the gentlemen a few minutes17ago mentioned that a landowner should

18expect an occasional interference with19his activities, and I agree with that.20In the information that I have provided21you -- and it's documented not just by22my words. But in the information that

23we provided you, in the 2010-2011

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 821hunting season we had dogs on property2that we own on six of eight weekends.3We had dogs on property that we lease on4seven of the eight -- seven of those5eight weekends. Last season it was four6weekends out of six.

7What makes the problem even worse is8that on some of those weekends it9involves both days, Saturday and10

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Sunday. The problem is further11magnified by the fact that some of those12intrusions last all day long.

13For example -- and, again, I give14you this just as an example. On15January 8th, 2011, members of the16hunting club, who I have identified in17my packet, were on the northern border

18of our property yelling up dogs at 4:3019in the afternoon. They had run on us20all day. That problem repeated itself21the next morning at 9 a.m. on22January 9th, 2011. On February 7th,23

2012, this year, we had guests and

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 831hunters in evening hunts because we had

2dogs on our property all day.3Now, I get that people want to dog4hunt. I understand it. But I think5

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requiring someone to give up 80 percent6of their weekends --7MS. JONES: Time.

8MR. COWAN: -- is asking too much. All we're9asking for is the permit system. And,10again, I would just reference you to the11information packet and the evidence that12I have provided to you. Thank you.

13CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Cowan, if you could14get with your new area representative,15Mr. Bunn, and start the conversation.16MR. COWAN: Thank you.17CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: The next speaker is Paul18

Jeffreys.19MR. JEFFREYS: Members of the Board, I would20like to thank you for being able to come21before you today. My name is Paul22Jeffreys. I'm a landowner in Lamar23

County.

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Page 841This morning me and Mr. Hatley were2discussing how long it's been that I've

3been coming to these meetings. And I4know for a fact it's been 12 years,5because when we started, my son, who's612 now, had just been born.7Back then we started our seeking a

8ban on dog deer hunting in Lamar County,9and it grew from just Lamar County to10Marion County and into Franklin County.11And then we had a serious problem. We12were having upwards of 60 and 7013

complaints a season in one county, in14Lamar County, my county in particular, a15season against clubs with dog hunting.16I hold in my hand the list of17complaints now, this year. And this18

past year in Lamar County alone we had19nine complaints. Nine complaints by20landowners complaining about dogs21running on their private property. You22

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cannot argue with numbers. That is a23fact.

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 851We went -- go back and check the2records. In early 2000 -- '99, 2000,3

2001, check your records of how many4complaints we had by landowners and5check them today. It's proof in the6numbers.7Again, the dog hunters are now8coming forward and saying we want to9police ourselves, we want to use10tracking collars. Let me just pose this11idea to you: As a hunter who is trying12to find a deer, to harvest a deer, would13that not give an unfair advantage of

14having a GPS on a dog that is pursuing15an animal, to run it from cover and16they're standing there with a device17

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MR. JEFFREYS: Right. Right. There's not a13regulation. I just want you to think14about that.

15That being said, in Lamar County we16would like to thank you for our season17and bag limits. It has been a success18story. We would like to thank you for19our bans. Landowners in that part of

20the state now have the free right --21when we started 12 years ago, I told22this board -- and Mr. Hatley, I believe,23is the only one that was present on this

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ADCNR Advisory Board MeetingMarch 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 871board at that time -- this was not a2hunting issue. It never was, never has3been. This was 100-percent a private

4landowner rights issue. And that was --5MS. JONES: Time.6MR. JEFFREYS: The private landowner should7

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have the right to say what takes place8on his or her property.9CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeffreys.

10MR. JEFFREYS: Thank you.11CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: The next speaker is Steve12Pierce.13MR. PIERCE: Good morning, gentlemen. I'd14like to first thank the chairman for the

15invitation to come back from last16month. I appreciate it. And I don't17want to hash over the old stuff. You18know I don't like the night hunter at19all. We desperately still need some20

help with enforcement.21Gentlemen, I'd be glad to go with --22and I've offered -- our game warden. I23can't call his name now, but he's in my

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March 10, 2012334.263.4455Haislip, Ragan, Green, Starkie & Watson, P.C.Page 881cell phone and I'm in his. I've2

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offered. The corn sacks are laying3outside the gates on this particular4club. They're still laying there. That

5ain't right. We need something done6with enforcement.7I don't mean to be just harping on8the enforcement guys. I know they got a9big load, a bad situation. But what

10else can we do?11We -- something -- if it -- when you12call and after calling them it seems13like it falls on deaf ears, why you want14to keep calling if it's not doing any15

good?16Don't know what else to say about17tracking collars or whatever. I18understand that. And that's great19people are trying to help take care of20

the problem of looking after their21dogs. Appreciate it.22But, also, any of you gentlemen23hunters, if you ever set in a stand and

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Page 90


Page 891tried to still hunt and dogs running2around all under your feet, it ain't3very nice.4And you're not -- I'm not saying5

extend the season. Don't think we need6to do that neither. But no -- I don't7know what the biologists come up with.8But the game cameras out on our place9this year after the season, after I was10here last month -- the main part of the11rut, yes, was later into February in12Covington County. But what's causing13that? Is it they're not having time to14settle down after dog season and so15they're doing that or what? I don't

16know. I'm not a biologist.17(Brief interruption.)18CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Hold any comments from the19

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gallery, please.20Go ahead, Mr. Pierce.21MR. PIERCE: But there needs to be something

22done. What we need to do -- we're23asking for help.

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Page 901You know, it's not nice to sit there2and try to stalk hunt -- I know we've3got the whole season to stalk hunt, but4it's not nice to sit there and stalk5hunt when you got a club setting here6with 2700 acres joining you. They're7not running over yonder and their dogs8jumping a deer and coming across. No.9A dog can't read property lines. I10don't -- it ain't the dog's fault. But

11when they're -- the club is setting12there less than a hundred yards off the13property line and turn their dogs loose14

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