[compiled as a token of gratitude to ken knight]

[Compiled as a token of gratitude to Ken Knight]

Message 23043 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat May 29, 2004 5:03 amSubject: June topic

Namaste All,The intention is to provide a body of material thatwill be of value to all, whether the subject is new toyou or you have had the benefit of many years of studyand practice. It is hoped that all members willcontribute. Questions are of great importance, theygive those with much greater understanding than myselfthe opportunity to help push the study along the mainroad and the byways that will appear; one roadappearing as many, as it were..

I have divided the topic into two sections. The firstwill focus on the context and understanding of theVedas, the second will concentrate upon the use ofmAyA in the actual texts of the Vedas. Inevitably,the first section had me writing too much but I haveleft plenty of 'gaps' for others to contribute. Thesecond section will be much more text based and willdepend upon your insights. I foresee the situationarising when the two sections could overlap although Iintend beginning the second, and more importantsection, after about ten days.Postings for the first section will come under thefollowing headings, and, I would suggest, be postedevery couple of days as they are meant to build up abackground of information. Any points arising from aposting can continue to be developed as the others arealso presented :1) Intro:..personal as well as to the topic2) The Vedas: Infinity and authority3) Understanding the hymns4) Context of the poets: the power and the glory5) 'That one and the many'6) Yaska, Vedangas and understanding the hymns7) Explanation through division8) Some key words9) Book and Web-site list ( this is ongoing and willhave grown by the end as I hope you will allcontribute titles and websites. )

At the moment I have written the first two postings ofthe second section. As I do not want to overload your

Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage SoftwareThis document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details

http://www.visagesoft.com/easypdf/

mail boxes with lengthy hymns that you can easilydownload for yourselves, I will experiment a bit withthe best way to study texts on-line.

Finally, my junior school teachers used to hit me witha leather strap on a daily basis in order to slow medown and make me check my work. This was not asuccessful method of teaching as I still make manyerrors for which I apologise in advance.

Thank you for your attention,

Ken

'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.'================================================================Message 23101 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 6:15 pmSubject: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Understanding the Hymns

Namaste All,The following continues what I hope is a slowintroduction for those with little previous reading ofthe Vedas as well as providing some challenge for theexperts to take up.

Understanding the Hymns:

'The Waters' Son hath risen, and clothed in lightningascended up into the curled cloud's bosom;And bearing with them his supremest glory the Youthfulones, gold-coloured, move around him.' RV II.35.9apaáM nápaad aá hy ásthaad upásthaM jihmaánaam uurdhvóvidyútaM vásaanaH |tásya jyéSTham mahimaánaM váhantiir híraNyavarNaaHpári yanti yahviíH ||

The language of the Rgveda is mantra. It reveals itstruth in its own way rather than have our intellectsscramble away at meaning and imagery. By all meansthough, let us proceed with such scrambling as it is abetter use of the intellect than idly dreaming aboutsome future personal fear or pleasure.

The above stanza and hymn contains imagery of mythsknown to its original listeners while it alsodescribes the processes of the appearance of the 'Manyout of the One'. It is to do with The Word, vAk. Itis to do with the appearance of inspiration or



intuition of truth which transcends and dissolves theclouds of ignorance we have allowed to trap us indelusion. More of this hymn will be posted in thefuture.

In order to help us to appreciate the contexts of thehymns we may take as a first step a consideration ofwhat may be termed the 'inner and outer spaces'. The'outer space' is that filled with the objects of nameand form that can be empirically studied and theresultant knowledge shared and examined. The 'innerspace', the world of insight, imagination and thoughtis less easily accessed because the individualintentions and cultural background colour theexpression of any essential inspiration.It is this 'space' we need to access in our efforts tounderstand the hymns. We best serve the aim to hearthe 'sound' of the Vedas by allowing unnecessaryactivity, the attachment to long-held concepts, tofall back into stillness.

The RgVeda is the outpouring of religious experience,in and through that inner space and its parallel inthe outer space; expressed through the imagery of itstraditional knowledge held in the chanted mantras andenacted through ritual. This imagery, with itsmythical tales as a background, is known to thespeaker and audience of its time but inaccessible formost of us today. However, once an essential insighthas been revealed the richness of the original imagerycan be studied and experienced afresh so that itsqualities can be valued in their own beauty, a fewrays of which may enlighten our own understandingtoday.The search for the centre of that 'inner space' leadsus to an enquiry into what we may term as the 'heartand mind' of the individual whether in the Vedic orour contemporary contexts. This search is clearly inthe philosophical teaching sections of the Vedas,which are interspersed with the directions for ritualpractices. At the centre of these teachings is avision of the fluency of The Word emerging from theSun.Frequently the imagery of waters and rivers is relatedto the source of speech in our 'centre of intuition':

samyák sravanti saríto ná dhénaa antár hRdaá mánasaapuuyámaanaaH ||

'Together flow the rivers (of speech), like rivulets,purified within by the heart/mind.'RV. IV.58.6



For both the first Rishis, the later poets and theexegetes of the Upanishads, there was a greaterawareness, possibly shared by the non-literate peoplesof our present times, of a flow and connection betweenour outer and inner worlds of experience than we havein our literate, more individualistically self-awaresocieties. This flow proceeds eternally in a greater,limitless ocean or space; a 'mysterious abyss' to usethe Vedic image.

'Some floods unite themselves and others join them;the sounding rivers fill one common storehouse.On every side the bright Floods have encompassed thebright resplendent Offspring of the Waters.' RVII.35.3Please use www.flaez.ch for the Sanskrit and MonierWilliams dictionary to try to get a better translationof this verse suitable to your own understanding.

In the non-dual philosophy of the Vedas, this flow isa continuum rather than an interaction between aparticle and its enclosing energy or power. We may useas an illustration the classic image of the spacewithin the pot. There appears to be a separation bythe clay of the 'within' and 'outside' spaces but weknow also that there is space within the molecularstructure of the pot; the space is not contained.And so when we read the hymns we need to be aware ofthree 'spaces'; the inner, the outer and theall-pervading/embracing mysterious abyss in which allare interconnected or rather inter-fluent.Although we may name them as different spaces for thepurposes of conversation, we acknowledge at the sametime that such enumeration is relevant only indualistic thought. We need to understand and applythis as we encounter the hymns and their imagery ofthe Sun, Dawn, Oceans and Cows etc. When the poetspeaks of the Sun rising this is not a simple simileor metaphor but a unity of experience, of a sun risingin the outer space, of the inner sun rising in theintuitive heart/mind and the unveiling of that Sunthat pervades and transcends all. It is through thevery sound of the mantra that this continuum isrealised. That is why we need to hear the mantras.

I will return later to the understanding of three'levels' when I introduce Yaska.

'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed,breathed forth.'

Message 23115 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #



From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 2:01 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Understanding the Hymns

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>wrote:> Namaste All,> The following continues what I hope is a slow> introduction for those with little previous reading of> the Vedas as well as providing some challenge for the> experts to take up.>> Frequently the imagery of waters and rivers is related> to the source of speech in our `centre of intuition':>> samyák sravanti saríto ná dhénaa antár hRdaá mánasaa> puuyámaanaaH ||>> `Together flow the rivers (of speech), like rivulets,> purified within by the heart/mind.'RV. IV.58.6>>

Namaste Ken-ji

What a pleasure to have you on this group! I didn't realise untilyou started this RgVeda postings that there could be such anenormous work on the RgVeda available on the web.

Well, please advise me. What is the quickest way to get at the RVtranslations on the web? Your reference:http://flaez.ch/rv/is of course wonderful. For every word I click on the text it takesme to synonyms, as well as other usages of the same word in RV(Concordance). It is all marvellous! But still to get the totalmeaning of a rik, is there a total translation available somewhereelse? Or am I still to use the same reference and wade further?For instance, In RV IV.58 where you have quoted the 6th rik, I aminterested in the 3rd rik:catvaári shR'Ñgaa tráyaH asya paádaaH dvé shiirSé saptáhástaasaH asyatrídhaa baddháH vRSabháH roraviiti maháH deváH mártyaan aávivesha.

This same Rik also occurs in Krishna Yajur veda (which is the onlyveda I have ever touched). So I would like to know the full meaning,though I know the meanings of some of the words, the total purportevades me.

Also another observation. The numbers that you quote for your RVquotes, match only the "flaez.ch" reference. When I go to someother website, the numbers do not match. Is there any correspondence-matching?



In any case. I thank you and congratulate you most heartily. In factI would like to stop my postings of Shata-shlokI, if it is likely todivert your audience -- though in beginning it, my opinion was thatit would be very light compared to the RV discussion, and probablywould meet the needs of some beginners on advaita.

PraNAms to all students of RgVeda.Profvk

Message 23117 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 2:59 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Understanding the Hymns

--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:> Well, please advise me. What is the quickest way to> get at the RV> translations on the web? Your reference:> http://flaez.ch/rv/> is of course wonderful. For every word I click on> the text it takes> me to synonyms, as well as other usages of the same> word in RV> (Concordance). It is all marvellous! But still to> get the total> meaning of a rik, is there a total translation> available somewhere> else? Or am I still to use the same reference and> wade further?

Namaste Professor,Can there ever be a 'total' meaning of a Rk? Once sucha meaning is known there is no need to divide it upinto words for the purpose of getting at the meaning.Except for the purposes of teaching.However, we are here together trying to get at themeanings of these mantras relevant to our presentstate of ignorance. Of course, I do not mean thatdisrespectfully but speak as I understand the'authority' of the Vedas.www.flaez.ch is the best site that I know of for theVedas. The Wilson and Griffith translations are usefulfor a start but rarely do they penetrate to the heartof the Rks. May I be bold enough to suggest that Iwould like us to do this during this study. Later on Ihope we can do more close text study together.Even if we can together, with common mind in onecommon place, understand one Rk in such a way we willhave been truly blessed. If you look at some of theother sites that I have suggested you will find some



single sUktas translated but they are rarely the onesI want personally.I know that there is one American academic who isattempting to translate the ten books of the Rgveda.We must wish her good luck for her next few lifetimesand hope that the gods take pity on her.

> For instance, In RV IV.58 where you have quoted the> 6th rik, I am> interested in the 3rd rik:> catvaári shR'Ñgaa tráyaH asya paádaaH dvé> shiirSé saptá> hástaasaH asya> trídhaa baddháH vRSabháH roraviiti maháH deváH> mártyaan aá> vivesha.>> This same Rik also occurs in Krishna Yajur veda> (which is the only> veda I have ever touched). So I would like to know> the full meaning,> though I know the meanings of some of the words, the> total purport> evades me.

I do refer to this Rk later on in a future posting butI will have a look later this evening and postsomething.......we have a meditation group here at myhome and people have started to arrive, so apologiesfor cutting this mail short.>> Also another observation. The numbers that you quote> for your RV> quotes, match only the "flaez.ch" reference. When I> go to some> other website, the numbers do not match. Is there> any correspondence-> matching?

This is a problem with the Griffith numbering and gaveme all sorts of problems when I first started lookingat this topic. Sunderji knows more of the reasons forthis problem. The flaez.ch numbering accords withmost books.>> In any case. I thank you and congratulate you most> heartily. In fact> I would like to stop my postings of Shata-shlokI, if> it is likely to> divert your audience -- though in beginning it, my> opinion was that> it would be very light compared to the RV> discussion, and probably



> would meet the needs of some beginners on advaita.

I had a group study of Shata-shlokI last year and Ilook forward to following it with you. There havebeen many people joining this site recently who arenewish to advaita which is why I have been trying topresent this June topic carefully, step by step. I amsure that people will find their way to that whichsuits them best but I would hope that some can findtime for all the postings.

Om sri ram jai ram jai jai ram

Ken Knight

Message 23119 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 5:47 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Understanding the Hymns

Namaste all,Further to the last posting and before I post the nextof my pre-written sections, I thought that thefollowing would be of interest. It is a small part ofan essay 'Vedic Exegesis' published in 1937 by ShrimatAnirvan.It is a beautiful statement and accords with my ownunderstanding and what I am trying to present for youin my own way. At the end he refers to an epilogue toYaska's Nirukta which is not included in my version ofSarup's translation of the Nirukta. Therefore I cannotconfirm its accuracy and would welcome advice fromanyone who has found this epilogue in some version ofthe nirukta.

''The problem of Vedic exegesis then is the problem ofreviving the spirit and re-creating the innerexperience of the atmosphere in which the mantras tookshape. Mere intellectual ingenuity and superficialjudgment will not help us, because here we are dealingwith things of the spirit where an interpretation canhope to be true only when understanding has comethrough spiritual communion and insight. We shall haveto take our stand on the two postulates of faithadvanced by the ritualists, taking them in a slightlydifferent form: instead of the eternality and thenon-personal origination of the Word, we shall have tospeak of the eternality and the non-personal characterof Truth. It may be debatable whether material historyis the expression of an original Idea; but it is an



indubitable fact that spiritual history is always so.'It is of the One Existence that yearning hearts speakin diverse ways', has said a Vedic seer Note from KK (this is a rather individual interpretation ofRV.I.164.45) ; and this is true not only in anabstract way, but in a concrete form also. Like themystic asvattha tree 'with its root above and thebranches below', the Vedic tradition, in a broadsense, stands at the very source of almost all formsof Indian spiritual cults. And the interpretation ofthis tradition can be attempted with best results ifwe do not place the Vedas on the isolated heights ofthe past, but with a total vision of the presentretrace our steps to the roots discovering, with apenetrating insight, the links at every step. But thismovement in breadth must be supplemented by a movementin depth. One has to discover the master-idea that hasbeen behind this historical development. And here, itis the Spirit that must question the Spirit in thatstillness of 'the ocean where the womb of the Wordlies sunk in the depths of the Waters' RV X.125.7And, in this connection, nothing can be moreilluminating than the following remarks of Yãska inhis epilogue to the Nirukta: 'Concerning the mantra.s,none can claim to have perceived their truths if oneis not a seer and a spiritual energizer. . . Whenseers passed beyond, men asked the gods, "Who aregoing to be seers for us?" To them the gods gavereason as the seer. And hence, whatever one speakswith reason, following the track of the Word, becomesas good as the utterance of a seer. . . . Thisknowledge is a form of revealed and reasonedillumination; its farthest end is to be realized byspiritual energizing.' Nirukta XIII.12,13.

Ken KnightMessage 23122 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: Ananda Wood <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 11:02 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Understanding the Hymns

Professor V. Krishnamurthy wrote (June 2nd):

"...to get the total meaning of a rik, is there a total translationavailable somewhere else?"

I've found the following URL useful:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/#vedas orhttp://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/



Ananda====================================================================Message 23123 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 11:43 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Understanding the Hymns

Namaste,

The computer is still convalescing after the 'virus' attack,but is still not out of breath yet!

These two sites are worth a visit:

http://www.vedah.com/org/index.asp

http://www.sanskritweb.de/rigveda/

The Sringeri Math has published a 6-vol. (sanskrit-English)set, but not on-line.

Regards,

SunderMessage 23124 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "ymoharir" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 1:08 amSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Understanding the Hymns

Dear Respected Ken Ji:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Can there ever be a 'total' meaning of a Rk? Once sucha meaning is known there is no need to divide it upinto words for the purpose of getting at the meaning.Except for the purposes of teaching.However, we are here together trying to get at themeanings of these mantras relevant to our presentstate of ignorance. Of course, I do not mean thatdisrespectfully but speak as I understand the'authority' of the Vedas.<<<<<<<<<<<<

"TRUE"



One can almost never have a "TOTAL" meaning of any R^icaa (slicedwith ten ways from Sunday). I believe this because each slice ofunderstanding is limited by the limits of the ability of theinterpreter himself. No matter who great scholastic that individualmay be. It is still that limit. You can never go beyond your ownmind, which in turn is limited by your own "buddhi" as sharpened byyour personal training.

That is why we have the concept of "brahma" as "expanding Universe"(not just EXPANDED UNIVERSE). You can never-ever know it completelybecause it has already expanded by the time you arrive there to knowit. Just a few pictures from Hubble Telescope gives hernia to theenquiring minds!!

Just my 1 and 1/4 Cents of thoughts !!

With best regards,

Dr. Yadu

Message 23136 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 2:25 pmSubject: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: The power and the glory

Namaste All,

It has been said that 'he who knows only a singleculture knows no culture, he who knows only onelanguage knows no language.' We are bound by thelimits of an intellect shaped by our individualcontexts. Moksha demands that we seek ways to breakdown what Wordsworth called the 'prison-house formingaround the growing boy'.This posting is intended to help those of us who havebecome enmeshed in urbanised cultures to connect withthe vision of the Rgvedic poets.

Context of the poets; the power and the glory:

Yehudi Menuhin, in his autobiography, wrote that we inthe West live a 'capsuled existence'; we eat capsuledfood, live in capsules, are given capsuled educationand participate in capsuled religion. For many of usour contemporary context is that of being enclosed,capsuled, cut off from the immediacy of power behindthe physical manifestations around us and toofrequently from the inspirational powers of our owninner creativity. We know how to flick a switch to



fill a room with light but we rarely seek themechanism for a similar event in the mind. This arisesfrom a deluded sense of 'being in control' of ourenvironment or, at least, our striving to control theevents of our daily lives and careers, even though theword 'career' is also applied to a horse out ofcontrol.Not for many of us is the exposure to the full forceof the natural elements as we survive from day to dayin our 'capsules' with their illusory, protectingstructures. For some of us there may be periods ofexposure to the raging seas that support our fragileboats, to the terrifying tempests that tear at ourhomes while we breathe the air, to the fire of the sunthat gives us light and warmth but destroys as wellwhen its lightning bolts strike, or to the noble earthwhich may support us as we cling to a rock-face andyet devours our homes when it opens up.In the Vedic times, as indeed for many others in ourpresent times, the awareness of these apparentlyconflicting outer forces was immediate andawe-inspiring.This hymn in praise to VAyu uses a dust-storm toillustrate the might of this 'Holy and earliest born.'vaátasya nú mahimaánaM ráthasya rujánn eti stanáyannasya ghóSa |divispR'g yaaty aruNaáni kRNvánn utó eti pRthivyaáreNúm ásyan ||

'O the Wind's chariot, O its power and glory!Crashing it goes and hath a voice of thunder.It makes the regions red and touches heaven, and as itmoves the dust of earth is scattered.' RgVeda 4.58.6

Power. This is a key word for us in this study.Power is to be observed manifesting in the glory andawe-inspiring qualities of the natural world. Tounderstand and be part of that power would seem to bea sensible aim for the human being. So the Vedic mindreaches out beyond the practical task of harnessingthe power of the wind to propel ships or water to helpgrow crops. The human intellect wants to reach outfurther than the immediate needs to understand and, ifpossible, harness the source of that power. By'harness' I mean to draw that power to a focus in the'outer space and inner spaces.' This intellect thentakes the extraordinary step of examining itself tofind that source of power. The following hymn clearlylinks the inner river of inspiration, powerfullysweeping away ignorance, with the immense power of thephysical river named Sarasvati:

'sarasvati devanido ni barhaya prajAM vishvasya



bRsayasya mAyinaH |uta kSitibhyo.avanIravindo viSamebhyo asravovAjinIvati ||pra No devI sarasvatI vAjebhirvAjinIvatI |dhInAmavitryavatu ||yastvA devi sarasvatyupabrUte dhane hite |indraM na vRtratUrye ||tvaM devi sarasvatyavA vAjeSu vAjini |radA pUSeva naHsanim ||uta syA naH sarasvatI ghorA hiraNyavartaniH |vRtraghnI vaSTi suSTutim ||yasyA ananto ahrutastveSashcariSNurarNavaH |amashcarati roruvat||

'May the divine Sarasvati, rich in her wealth, protectus well,Furthering all our thoughts with might.Whoso, divine Sarasvati, invokes thee where the prizeis set,Like Indra when he smites the foe.Aid us, divine Sarasvad, thou who art strong in wealthand powerLike Pusan, give us opulence.Yea, this divine Sarasvati, terrible with her goldenpath,Foe-slayer, claims our eulogy.Whose limitless unbroken flood, swift-moving with arapid rush,Comes onward with tempestuous roar.' RV VI.68.4-8

The natural elements, such as water, are the truepowers that are instituted to govern by a transcendentwill which manifests as the controlling power of Rta,not the men and women who are raised to governmentwhere they quickly become encapsuled in another layerof social conditioning. In Vedic times, the best ofthe kings and other leaders knew their place in thelarger scheme of things, for the limitations of theirpower were all too evident in the vast environmentthat could so easily switch from nourishing friend todestructive enemy.

'Who lauds him (Indra), satisfies him, pays himworship? E'en the rich noble still hath found himmighty.With power, as when one moves his feet alternate, hemakes the last precede, the foremost follow.' RV6.47.15

Intuited knowledge comes as a flash bringing with itdelight and beauty, it is an impulse to praise notthat which is 'other' but that which is all-pervading,ever-present, that One, Tad Ekam.



'Some floods unite themselves and others join them;the sounding rivers fill one common storehouse.On every side the bright Floods have encompassed thebright resplendent Offspring of the Waters.' RVII.35.3

When trying to work with the intellect alone then theimagery of this hymn will give one meaning; byallowing the sunburst of inspiration, intuited in theheart, there will arise a flash that will fill thatmeaning with new wonders. The heart and intellect mustwork in harmony, a harmony which is their naturalcondition for they emerge from a single centre.So we continue this study, prostrating at the feet ofthe great Rishis from long ago, who may speak to usnow through their mantras manifesting the divine willand order they perceived with their special vision.'Eager for spoil my flow of speech I utter: may theFlood's Child accept my songs with favour.Will not the rapid Son of Waters make them lovely, forit is he who shall enjoy them.To him let us address the song well-fashioned from theheart. Shall he not understand it?The friendly Son of Waters, by the greatness ofGodhead hath produced all things existing.' RVII.35.1-2

Message 23137 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 2:34 pmSubject: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some key words

Namaste all,This posting was waiting to be introduced at the mostappropriate time to underpin all the others. There aremany other words that deserve special mention but Ifelt that these would be of the most use at thisstage:

Some Key Words

Rta:Faced with the idea of an underlying unity in thediversity it is possible for us to propose a constancythat pervades the uncertain world of change. In theVedas this is a constancy that directs the rotation ofthe seasons and maintains the order in the heavens;that brings order out of chaos as it were. Rta becamethe word used for this harmony that rests behind thechanging scenes in the inner and outer environments.However, Rta was also pro-active in that it would



impose order, direct people on the right path, thepath taken by the righteous ones.'O Indra, lead us on the path of Rta, on the rightpath over all evils.' RV X.133.6As a transcendent, supramental force it is seen bysome as the same concept as dharma. It is cosmic lawand integrity, occasionally personalised but alsoimpersonal and as such may be seen to express thatmysterious power; it is a power of the One appearingin diversity.

Yajna: The Sacred GivingThrough observation it had been reasoned that acentral process in Rta was an outpouring andexpansion, an active giving that was mirrored by thegiving of an individual in a community. In the eventsof yajna there can be seen signs of the firstsacrifice, the manifestation of the many emerging outof the One. (Purusha Shukta, RgVeda X.90)While many rituals would be performed for theacquisition of a good life free from hunger and freefrom attack by one's enemies, there is also the desirefor insight and knowledge to be granted to theparticipants. Ultimately however, beyond these twolevels, the sacrifice itself becomes the means ofreturning the many, through the aegises of the powers,the 'shining ones', devatAH, to that all-pervadingsource. That is, through the objects of the physicalmanifestation in the place, means and practitioners ofthe ritual, the subtle powers are invited to attend,they 'give themselves', expanding to the limits of theritual through which they ultimately are released.For the 'success' of this act then a key must bepurity; that is purity of place and materials, purityof persons and, primarily, purity of speech or word.Right intention, that is action in accordance withRta, will enable the power of the Agni and the flowingbeauty of Sarasvati, for example, to enter the ritualwhich takes place simultaneously at three levels.These three levels are stated in the words thattraditionally introduce the Gayatri mantra: the lowestsphere (bhuuh), the intermediary of the middle region(bhvah) and the higher region of the celestial sphere(svah). Without the right 'charitable' intentionmanifesting in the song of the participants the middleregion, the doorway to the essential powers, cannot beopened.

dhIThis extremely important faculty of spiritualdiscernment and vision may be observed in the Vedictradition in the myth of the Rbhus, those humans whowere elevated to the plane of the devataH through



their excellent skills and craftsmanship. Theymanifested their miraculous deeds through three'skills': the power of speech, ShacIbhiH, vision,dhIyaH, and mental ability, manasA:yaábhiH sháciibhish camasaáM+ ápiMshata yáyaa dhiyaágaám áriNiita cármaNaHyéna hárii mánasaa nirátakSata téna devatvám RbhavaHsám aanasha'The mighty powers (shacIbhish, the power of speech,eloquence) wherewith. ye formed the chalices, thethought (dhiyA) by which ye drew the cow from out thehide,The intellect (manasA, heart/mind) wherewith yewrought the two Bay Steeds,-through these, O Rbhus, yeattained divinity.' RV III.60.2

The Gayatri Mantra is a prayer for the awakening ofthe dhI.'May we meditate, dhImah, on the Supreme Light: Onthe all-pervading radiance of the ultimate source ofdivine light. May he inspire the innermost thoughts,dhíyo, of our hearts.'In the Upanishads that higher faculty is oftenreferred to as buddhi. The Katha Upanishad, 3.12states, 'This Atman is seen through a subtle,one-pointed Buddhi'; the Mundaka says, 3.1.8, '(Theluminous inner Self) is seen when the mind is purifiedand knowledge becomes clear.'DhI is a faculty, available to all who explore theirown 'inner space' with integrity and through listeningto the mantras of their ancestral seers in ritual. DhIis strengthened through single-minded devotion, aconcentration focussed on the power and knowledge ofthe causal realm.

BrahmaNABrahmaNA in the RigVeda is the causal vibration orsound, the sacred word through which the devaH emergesin power. The singing priest invokes the devaH andrequests that he be filled with the power of finespeech which spreads out, bubbling up from the springof inspiration, to flood the known or ever expandinguniverse. While channelling this causal sound thepriest becomes that sound so that the singer and thesong are BrahmaNA. This is the Word becoming flesh, asit were. Beginning in a state of weakness as theunempowered individual, the singer brings thestrength-giving, unifying sound out of 'the depths'into the place of ritual. Through the manifest formsof the ritual the unmanifest is spoken. This is theultimate power of the singer, through the soma ofinspiration, the dawning light of knowledge is spokenand brings protection, wealth and good fortune into



the world for the benefit of all 'bipeds andquadrupeds'.

RSi, Kavi, Vipra and SomaThe Rgveda gives three names for the seer: rishi,vipra and kavi. As explained earlier, rishi means onewho has the vision of the mantra. The word vipra canbe traced etymologically, vip, to a trembling, excitedstate resulting from the presence of the power of thedeity inspiring the seer. The vipras are also poets,kavis, who are able to solve the riddles of themantras, to see through the outer forms and recognisethe truth being veiled.The ordinary man or woman is transformed into the seerthrough such a vision. Soma, 'sva me', is the sourceof inspiration that is said to convert the ordinarymind and to guide the inspired sages. The mystery ofRta is unravelled only to a rishi:kavír giirbhíH kaávyenaa kavíH sán sómaH pavítram átyeti rébhan ||'By songs a Poet and a Sage by wisdom, Soma goessinging through the cleansing filter.'R'Simanaa yá RSikR't svarSaáH sahásraNiithaH padaviíHkaviinaám |tRtiíyaM dhaáma mahiSáH síSaasan sómo viraájam ánuraajati STúp ||'Light-winner, Rsi-minded, Rsi-maker, hymned in athousand hymns, Leader of sages,A Steer who strives to gain his third form, Soma is,like Viraj, resplendent as a Singer.' RV IX.96.17,18

Message 23138 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 7:40 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some key words

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:

> Some Key Words>> Rta:> Faced with the idea of an underlying unity in the> diversity it is possible for us to propose a constancy> that pervades the uncertain world of change.

Namaste,

This word made me recall another aspect of Time, a thread ofrecent discussion. [Without meaning to digress, as Sadaji hadinquired about the Vedic ideas on Time in that thread, and I was



unable to respond due to a 'sick' computer, I am just giving areference to a famous hymn:]

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/vedic_experience/Part2/VEPartIIChA.html

Purnah kumbhahAV XIX, 531. Time drives like a horse with seven reins,a thousand-eyed unaging Stallion.Him the inspired poets mount.All beings are his chariot wheels.2. Time draws this chariot with seven wheels.Seven are the hubs; its axle is nondeath.At the head of all beings Time proceedsunceasingly, the first among the Gods.3. Above Time is set a brimful vessel.Simultaneously we see Time here, there, everywhere.Set face to face with all existences,Time is throned, men say, in the loftiest realm.4. Time has gathered together all beings that are;he has passed through all the gathered beings.He who was father has become their son.There is no glory higher than his.5. Time generated the Sky aboveand this vast Earth. The passing momentspresent and future, by him set swinging,are reckoned out in due proportions.6. Time brought forth fate-filled chance.In Time the Sun shines and burns.In Time the eye spies from afar.In Time all existences are.7. In Time is consciousness and life,In Time is concentrated nameBy Time, when he draws close at hand,all creatures are with gladness filled.8. In Time is energy, in Time the highest good.In Time is the Holy Utterance.Time is the Lord of all that is,the Father, he, of the Creator.9. Sent forth by him, from him all thiswas born . On him is it established.So soon as he has become Brahman,Time supports the highest Deity.10. Time created the creatures.Time created in the beginning the Lord of creatures.From Time comes the Self-Existent.Energy likewise from Time derives.----------------------------------------------------------------------

KalaAV XIX, 541. From Time came into being the Waters,



from Time the Holy Word, Energy, and the regions.By Time [each day] the Sun arises,in Time he goes to rest again.2. By Time blows the cleansing Wind,through Time the vast Earth has her being.The great Heaven has his post in Time.3. Their son Time long ago engenderedthe things that were and that shall be.From Time came Scripture into beingand formulas for Sacrifice.4. By Time was Sacrifice inaugurated,inexhaustible oblation to the Gods.In Time live the spirits ant the nymphs.Upon Time all the worlds repose.5. In Time are set this Angirasand Atharvan who came from Heaven,both this world and the world above,all holy worlds and holy interspaces.6. Having conquered the worlds by Holy Word,Time, the God supreme, goes on.

Raimondo Panikkar's commentary at this site is quiteenthralling.

Regards,

SunderMessage 23139 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 7:41 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some key words

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>wrote:>>> Some Key Words>> Rta:> Faced with the idea of an underlying unity in the> diversity it is possible for us to propose a constancy> that pervades the uncertain world of change. In the> Vedas this is a constancy that directs the rotation of> the seasons and maintains the order in the heavens;> that brings order out of chaos as it were. Rta became> the word used for this harmony that rests behind the> changing scenes in the inner and outer environments.> However, Rta was also pro-active in that it would> impose order, direct people on the right path, the



> path taken by the righteous ones.> `O Indra, lead us on the path of Rta, on the right> path over all evils.' RV X.133.6> As a transcendent, supramental force it is seen by> some as the same concept as dharma. It is cosmic law> and integrity, occasionally personalised but also> impersonal and as such may be seen to express that> mysterious power; it is a power of the One appearing> in diversity.

Namaste all.

Just a supplement to Ken-ji's wonderful listing and explanations ofthe Vedic keywords. Particularly the two words Rtam and Satyam occurin pairs throughout the Vedas repeatedly. Each time people give itdifferent meanings, for example:

Satyam is Truth in its pure existence. Ritam is Truth in its dynamicmovementSatyam is Truth in its pure existence. Rtam is Truth in its dynamicmovementSatyam is Truth. Rtam is LawSatyam is what is true. Rtam is what is just.Satyam is individual truthfulness; Rtam is universal orderSatyam is social truthfulness; Rtam is spiritual law.Satyam is Right Thought . Rtam is Right Action.Satyam is worldly truth and order. Rtam is cosmic truth and orderSatyam is the true; Rtam is the right.Satyam is Truth of Being. Rtam is Truth of Divine Being.

But here is a useful write up by Anand Hudli on the evolution of themeanings of Rtam and Satyam:http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/public/advaita-l/1998-April/008777.html

PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda.Profvk

Message 23140 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 7:50 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some key words

--- In [email protected], "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@y...>wrote:>>> But here is a useful write up by Anand Hudli on the evolution ofthe> meanings of Rtam and Satyam:> http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/public/advaita-l/1998-> April/008777.html



NamasteThe above web address appears in two lines. So it has to be copiedand pasted on the address box. Just clicking the first line wouldnot work. Sorry for the inconvenience.

PraNAms to all students of Rg Vedaprofvk

Message 23141 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 10:10 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some key words

--- In [email protected], "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@y...>wrote:> --- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>> wrote:> >> >> > Some Key Words> >> > Rta:

> Just a supplement to Ken-ji's wonderful listing and explanations of> the Vedic keywords. Particularly the two words Rtam and Satyamoccur> in pairs throughout the Vedas repeatedly.

Namaste,

Some more thoughts on Rta:

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/foreword.html

".....There is a difference of opinion even among the learned as tothe meaning of the word "dharma". The word is derived from "dhr" touphold, sustain or nourish. The seers often use it in closeassociation with "rta" and "satya". Sri Vidyaranya defines rta as themental perception and realization of God. The Taithriya Upanishadalso uses it with "satya" and "dharma". It exhorts students to speakthe truth and practise dharma ("Satya vada"; "Dharmam chara").According to Sankara Bhagavatpada, satya means speaking the truth anddharma means translating it (Satya) into action.

"Satyamiti yathasastrarthata sa eva anusthiyamanah dharmanamabhavati."

In this connection, the explanation given by Sri.K.Balasubramania



Aiyar is relevant:: "An analysis of the significance of these threewords (rta, satya and dharma) brings out clearly to us thefundamental basis of dharma as the ideal for an individual. While rtadenotes the mental perception and realization of truth and satyadenotes the exact true expression in words of the truth as perceivedby the mind, dharma is the observance, in the conduct of life, oftruth. In fact, dharma is the way of life which translates intoaction the truth perceived by the man of insight as expressed by himtruly. In short, rta is truth in thought, satya is truth in words anddharma is truth in deed."

[excerpt from the Foreword by Judge Mishra]

Regards,

SunderMessage 23142 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 11:48 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some key words

Sunderji writes...

"In short, rta is truth in thought, satya is truth in words anddharma is truth in deed."

Yes! Indeed!

In the TaittirIya upaniShad (1.11.1)Tthere is a verse that says

"satyaM vada . dharmaM cara ."

Speak the truth, practice dharma

and wheat is the SOURCE of Dharma ?

and in manu smriti, manu says

"vedo.akhilo dharmamUlam" (mulm means foundation)

veda-s are the source of all dharma

'Dharmao rakshati rakshitah'

Dharma protects those who protect dharma AND

'Dharma eva hatohanti'



Dharma destroys those who try to destroy dharma

Thank you sunderji for a delightful post.

Thank you knightji for reminding us of the twin truths of Satya ANDdharma - the pillars of Hinduism.

with warmest regardsMessage 23143 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 11:57 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some key words

please allow me to add to my last post on satya and dharma ...

In sri vishnu shasaranama.h. Lord vishnu is described as

satya-dharma-parAkramah

Meaning

One whose qualities and valor are always true. Om satya-dharma-parAkramAya namah.

Here dharma refers to the auspicious qualities of BhagavAn, andparAkrama refers to His valor. One in whom they are never failing(satya) is satya-dharma-parAkramah. SrI cinmayAnanda interprets thenAma to mean that BhagavAn is one who embodies satya (truth), dharma(righteous), and parAkrama (heroism). In vAlmIki rAmAyaNa SrI rAma isreferred to as satya-parAkramah - One whose parAkrama is never invain, and is always used for the good of the world. The writer indharma cakram points out that the nAma tells us the importance ofliving a life of truth, righteousenss, and the valor resulting fromthis kind of life. Those who live a life along these lines are boundto succeed in what they do, as evidenced by the lives of HanumAn,Bhishma, etc. -

source -dAsan kRshNamAcAryan

AUM NAMO NARAYANA!

In [email protected], "adi_shakthi16" <adi_shakthi16@y...>wrote:> Sunderji writes...>> "In short, rta is truth in thought, satya is truth in words and> dharma is truth in deed.">> Yes! Indeed!



>>> In the TaittirIya upaniShad (1.11.1)Tthere is a verse that says>> "satyaM vada . dharmaM cara .">> Speak the truth, practice dharma

Message 23145 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 5:19 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some key words

Namaste all,

Thank you for today's contributions on Rta and satya which I have printed offfor the file. With such full contributions I thought it best to leave the nextsection in my own series for a day or so. Especially as your postings have setme off on an etymological study of Rta. If anything of value appears I will postit tomorrow.One member contacted me away from the group and sent me the following URL:http://www.omshaantih.com/Scriptures/Rig%20Veda/Breath/Forth.htm

This was because of the postscript I have been using to end my postings:'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.'

I thought that it was well worth sharing it generally

Ken Knight

Message 23147 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 6:16 amSubject: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: (Panikkarbook/Time.Rta)

--- Sunder Hattangadi <[email protected]> wrote:> This word made me recall another aspect of> Time, a thread of> recent discussion. [Without meaning to digress, as> Sadaji had> inquired about the Vedic ideas on Time in that> thread, and I was> unable to respond due to a 'sick' computer, I am> just giving a> reference to a famous hymn:]>>



http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/vedic_experience/Part2/VEPartIIC>

Namaste Sunderji and Good Health to your Computer,It seems as though Rta has caught the attention so Iwill dwell on the word a little further as I attemptto reply to your most welcome postings.Firstly, Sunderji directs us to 'The VedicExperience' book on the web. The following quote fromthat book captures the essence of what our presentstudy is attempting to suggest is the metaphysicalritual imbued with philosophical insight displayed bythe RgVeda.

'9 There is a kumbha, a jar, a vessel that is abovetime, the Atharva Veda tells us. This pitcher is sofull that it is the origin of time inexhaustible. TheUpanishads attempt to peep into and take possession ofthe jar in its entirety. The Vedas themselves hadsuggested the method: breaking the jar by means ofsacrifice. The Upanishads now assert that thissacrifice must be an internal and spiritual one. '

We have previously discussed Panikkar on this site andI remember that some were most upset by his blendingof Christian/Vedantin mysticism that is his parentalheritage. Although I personally have debated with him,and opposed him, regarding his interpretations of themahavakyas that he presents in this book, there is nodoubting the spirituality of the man and the immensevalue of his work.

One of his pupils has written a wonderfully thoroughand insightful book on Rta and I recommend it toanyone seriously interested in such a study. The bookis 'The Vision of Cosmic Order in the Vedas' byJeanine Miller pub. Routledge & Kegan Paul. She hasalso written 'The Vedas. Harmony, Meditation andFulfilment' published by Rider & Company. If you canfind copies you will find them good company.

I have explained in another mail that this is a ratherbusy weekend but I particularly want to extend thekey-words list in the light of recent postings as wellas pick up on a couple of other points. This I will doas 'Time' allows so I won't post the next section inthe pre-written series for a couple of days.

Many thanks,

Ken Knight



Message 23148 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 8:01 amSubject: Re: what is Rta- an inner force of Law- jungian interpretation ?

Dear all,

Ken Kightji has been explaining to us some key words in the Rg Veda.one of these words is Rta.

It is always interesting to know how these words are interpreted indifferent contexts- more so in the realm of Psychology.

In the olden days, it was always fashionable to quote Sigmund Freud,the father of Psychology.

In most recent times, it is Carl Jung who has come into prominenceespeacially while discussing 'new age' religion...

But we know there is nothing new agey about VEDAS!

in fact, vedas are 'ever youthful' and 'eternal' truths.

it is my pleasure to share with you the following excerpt from CarlJung on WHAT IS RTA?

What is rta? An inner force of lawFrom Jung's Collected Works 6 Psychological Types (1921)

THE QUOTE BEGINS ...----------------------------------------------------------------------"Rta means established order, regulation, destiny, sacred custom,statute, divine law, right, truth. According to the etymologicalevidence its root meaning is: ordinance, (right) way, direction,course (to be followed). That which is ordained by rta fills thewhole world, but the particular manifestations of rta are in thoseprocesses of nature which always remain constant and arouse the ideaof regular recurrence: "By the ordinace of rta the heaven-born dawnwas lighted." "In obedience to rta" the Ancinet Ones who order theworld "made the sun to mount into the heavens," who himself is "theburning countenance of rta." Around the heavens circles the year, thetwelve-spoked wheel of rta that never ages. Agni is called theoffspring of rta. In the doings of man, rta operates as moral law,which ordains truth and the straight way. "Whoso follows rta, finds afair and thornless path to walk in."

In so far as they represent a magical repetition or reenactment ofcosmic events, rta also figures in religious rites. As the riversflow in obedience to rta and the crimson dawn is set ablaze,so "under the harness of rta" is the sacrifice kindled; on the pathof rta, Agni offers sacrifice to the gods. "Free from magic, I invoke



the gods; with rta I do my work, and shape my thought," says thesacrificer. Although rta does not appear personified in the Vedas,according to Bergaigne a suggestion of concrete existence undoubtedlyattaches to it. Since rta expresses the direction of events, thereare "paths of rta," "charioteers of rta," "ships of rta," and onoccasion the gods appear as parallels. For instance, the same is saidof rta as of Varuna, the sky-god. Mitra also, the ancient sun-god, isbrought into relation wit rta. Of Agni it is said; "Thou shalt becomeVaruna, if thou strivest after rta." The gods are the guardians ofrta. Here are some of the most important associations:

Rta is Mitra, for Mitra is Brahman and rta is Brahman

By giving the cow to the Brahmans, one gains all the worlds, for inher is contained rta, Brahman, and tapas also.

Prajapati is named the first-born of rta.

The gods followed the laws of rta.

He who ha seent he hidden one (Agni), draws nigh to the streams ofrta.

O wise one of rta, know rta! Bore for rta's many streams.

The "boring" refers to the worship of Agni, to whom this hymn isdedicated. (Agni is here called "the red bull of rta.") In theworship of Agni, the fire obtained by boring is used as a magicsymbol of the regeneration of life. Boring for the streams of rtaobviously has the same significance; the streams of life rise to thesurface again, libido is freed from its bonds. The effect produced bythe ritual fire-boring, or by the recital of hymns, is naturallyregarded by believers as the magical effect of the object; in realityit is an "enchantment" of the subject, an intensification of vitalfeeling, an increase and release of life force, a restoration ofpsychic potential.

Though he [Agni] slinks away, the prayer goes straight to him. They[the prayers] have led forth the flowing streams of rta.

The revival of vital feeling, of this sense of streaming energy, isin general compared to a spring gushing from its source, to meltingof the iron-bound ice of winter in springtime, or to the breaking ofa long drought by rain. The following passage takes up this theme:

The lowing milch-cows of rta were overflowing, their udders full. Thestreams, imploring from afar the favour of the gods, have brokenthrough the midst of the rock with their floods.

The imagery clearly suggests a state of energic tension, a damming upof libido and its release. Rta apperas here as the bestower ofblessing in the form of "lowing milch-cows" and as the ultimatesource of the released energy.



The aforementioned image of rain as a release of libido is borne outin the following passage:

The mists fly, the clouds thunder. When he who is swollen with themilk of rta is led on the straight path of rta, Aryaman, Mitra, andVaruna who wanders over the earth, fill the learthern sack (=cloud)in the womb of the lower (world?).

It is Agni, swollen with the milk of rta, who is likened to thelightning that bursts forth from the massed clouds heavy with rain.Here again rta appears as the actual source of energy, whence Agnialso is born, as expressly mentioned in the Vedic Hymns.

They have greeted with shouts the streams of rta, which were hiddenat the birthplace of the god, at his seat. There did he drink when hedwelt dispersed in the womb of the waters.

353 This confirms wht we have said about rta as the source of libidowhere the god dwells and whence he is brought forth in the sacredceremonies. Agni is the positive manifestation of the latent libido;he is accomplisher or fulfiller of rta, its "charioteer"; heharnesses the two long-maned red mares of rta. He even holds rta likea horse, by the bridle. He brings the gods to mankind, their powerand blessing; they represent definite psychological states in whichthe vital feelings and energies flow with greater freedom and joy.Nietzsche has captured this state in his verse:

You with your fiery lancesShatter the ice-bound soul of meTill wit high hope it advancesRushing and roaring into the sea.

The following invocation echoes this theme:

May the divine gates, the increasers of rta, open themselves...thatthe gods may come forth. May Night and Dawn...the young mothers ofrta, sit down together on the sacrificial grass.

The ananlogy with the sunrise is unmistakable. Rta appears as thesun, since it is from night and dawn that the young sun is born.

----------------------------------------------------------------------http://web.ukonline.co.uk/phil.williams/What%20is%20rta.htm - 6k



From Jung's Collected Works 6 Psychological Types (1921)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

348 Rta means established order, regulation, destiny, sacred custom,statute, divine law, right, truth. According to the etymologicalevidence its root meaning is: ordinance, (right) way, direction,course (to be followed). That which is ordained by rta fills thewhole world, but the particular manifestations of rta are in thoseprocesses of nature which always remain constant and arouse the ideaof regular recurrence: "By the ordinace of rta the heaven-born dawnwas lighted." "In obedience to rta" the Ancinet Ones who order theworld "made the sun to mount into the heavens," who himself is "theburning countenance of rta." Around the heavens circles the year, thetwelve-spoked wheel of rta that never ages. Agni is called theoffspring of rta. In the doings of man, rta operates as moral law,which ordains truth and the straight way. "Whoso follows rta, finds afair and thornless path to walk in."

349 In so far as they represent a magical repetition or reenactmentof cosmic events, rta also figures in religious rites. As the riversflow in obedience to rta and the crimson dawn is set ablaze,so "under the harness of rta" is the sacrifice kindled; on the pathof rta, Agni offers sacrifice to the gods. "Free from magic, I invokethe gods; with rta I do my work, and shape my thought," says thesacrificer. Although rta does not appear personified in the Vedas,according to Bergaigne a suggestion of concrete existence undoubtedlyattaches to it. Since rta expresses the direction of events, thereare "paths of rta," "charioteers of rta," "ships of rta," and onoccasion the gods appear as parallels. For instance, the same is saidof rta as of Varuna, the sky-god. Mitra also, the ancient sun-god, is



brought into relation wit rta. Of Agni it is said; "Thou shalt becomeVaruna, if thou strivest after rta." The gods are the guardians ofrta. Here are some of the most important associations:

Rta is Mitra, for Mitra is Brahman and rta is Brahman

By giving the cow to the Brahmans, one gains all the worlds, for inher is contained rta, Brahman, and tapas also.

Prajapati is named the first-born of rta.

The gods followed the laws of rta.

He who ha seent he hidden one (Agni), draws nigh to the streams ofrta.

O wise one of rta, know rta! Bore for rta's many streams.

350 The "boring" refers to the worship of Agni, to whom this hymn isdedicated. (Agni is here called "the red bull of rta.") In theworship of Agni, the fire obtained by boring is used as a magicsymbol of the regeneration of life. Boring for the streams of rtaobviously has the same significance; the streams of life rise to thesurface again, libido is freed from its bonds. The effect produced bythe ritual fire-boring, or by the recital of hymns, is naturallyregarded by believers as the magical effect of the object; in realityit is an "enchantment" of the subject, an intensification of vitalfeeling, an increase and release of life force, a restoration ofpsychic potential.

Though he [Agni] slinks away, the prayer goes straight to him. They[the prayers] have led forth the flowing streams of rta.

351 The revival of vital feeling, of this sense of streaming energy,is in general compared to a spring gushing from its source, tomelting of the iron-bound ice of winter in springtime, or to thebreaking of a long drought by rain. The following passage takes upthis theme:

The lowing milch-cows of rta were overflowing, their udders full. Thestreams, imploring from afar the favour of the gods, have brokenthrough the midst of the rock with their floods.

The imagery clearly suggests a state of energic tension, a damming upof libido and its release. Rta apperas here as the bestower ofblessing in the form of "lowing milch-cows" and as the ultimatesource of the released energy.

The aforementioned image of rain as a release of libido is borne outin the following passage:

The mists fly, the clouds thunder. When he who is swollen with themilk of rta is led on the straight path of rta, Aryaman, Mitra, and



Varuna who wanders over the earth, fill the learthern sack (=cloud)in the womb of the lower (world?).

It is Agni, swollen with the milk of rta, who is likened to thelightning that bursts forth from the massed clouds heavy with rain.Here again rta appears as the actual source of energy, whence Agnialso is born, as expressly mentioned in the Vedic Hymns.

They have greeted with shouts the streams of rta, which were hiddenat the birthplace of the god, at his seat. There did he drink when hedwelt dispersed in the womb of the waters.

353 This confirms wht we have said about rta as the source of libidowhere the god dwells and whence he is brought forth in the sacredceremonies. Agni is the positive manifestation of the latent libido;he is accomplisher or fulfiller of rta, its "charioteer"; heharnesses the two long-maned red mares of rta. He even holds rta likea horse, by the bridle. He brings the gods to mankind, their powerand blessing; they represent definite psychological states in whichthe vital feelings and energies flow with greater freedom and joy.Nietzsche has captured this state in his verse:

You with your fiery lancesShatter the ice-bound soul of meTill wit high hope it advancesRushing and roaring into the sea.

354 The following invoaction echoes this theme:

May the divine gates, the increasers of rta, open themselves...thatthe gods may come forth. May Night and Dawn...the young mothers ofrta, sit down together on the sacrificial grass.

The ananlogy with the sunrise is unmistakable. Rta appears as thesun, since it is from night and dawn that the young sun is born.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/phil.williams/What%20is%20rta.htm - 6k -Message 23150 of 23497 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 11:16 amSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some key words

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>wrote:> Namaste all,>> Thank you for today's contributions on Rta and satya which I haveprinted off for the file. With such full contributions I thought itbest to leave the next section in my own series for a day or so.



Namaste.

Here is a comment on the word 'MAyA'. Many of us would be familiarwith the derivation:'yA mA sA mAyA'meaning, 'What is not, is mAyA'.

There are other derivations:

'mA ayyate (=jnAyate) iti mAyA'meaning, 'What cannot be comprehended, is mAyA'.

Also,'mIyate (=jnAyate) kAryadvArA iti mAyA'meaning, '(Though it cannot be comprehended directly) it is known byits effects'.


Message 23152 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 12:28 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Some more key words

--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:> --- In [email protected], ken knight> <anirvacaniya@y...>> wrote:> Namaste.>> Here is a comment on the word 'MAyA'. Many of us> would be familiar> with the derivation:> 'yA mA sA mAyA'> meaning, 'What is not, is mAyA'.

Namaste Professor and all others following thisseries,

At the moment I request everyone's patience as I keeptalking around the word mAyA in order to set the stagewith the various players that will help us to becomepart of the RgVedic experience, I hope. Please can westore this valuable posting of Professor Krishnamurty,and I thank him for it, until we move into the sectionof this series.I have added the following to my original list of keywords because of your postings on Time and the



interest in Rta.As explained previously, I am a little rushed today sothe following may be somewhat garbled but should be ofuse:

Some more key words

Tapas: 'the creative flame of contemplative exertion,the contracting to an inner point of dissolution andthe subsequent expansion to an infinitude of creativepossibilities.'That is a quote from Jeanine Miller's book 'TheVision of Cosmic Order in the Vedas.'The ultimate tapas is that from which sat and asatemerge as the nAsadIya sUkta states:RV X. 129.3táma aasiit támasaa guuLhám ágre .apraketáM saliláMsárvam aa idám |tuchyénaabhv ápihitaM yád aásiit tápasas tánmahinaájaayataíkam ||

'Darkness there was: at first concealed in darknssthis All was indiscriminated chaos.All that existed then was void and form less: by thegreat power of Warmth (tapas) was born that Unit.'

That is the Griffith translation.Here is a more poetic translation:'In the beginning, pregnant darkness was by dissolvingdarkness secretly enfolded. Unformed, unseparate thatfluid was this entire creation. While the boundlesssource of being was by unformed being thus enclosed,That One, through light of knowledge (tapas) broughtItself forth, to be.'

Add the two together and we still won't get near tothe Sanskrit but it helps us to see the importance ofthe word 'tapas' in the Vedic understanding.In this earlier hymn 'tapas' is used following a pleato the 'heroic vigour' in Indra's heart. This vigouris related to true faith and speech and empowers theausterities ritualised through yajna:RV IX 113.2aá pavasva dishaam pata aarjiikaát soma miiDhvaH |Rtavaakéna satyéna shraddháyaa tápasaa sutáíndraayendo pári srava ||

'Lord of the Quarters, flow thou on, boon Soma, fromArjika land,Effused with ardour and with faith, and the true hymnof sacrifice. Flow, Indu, flow for Indra's sake.'

(Dr Yadu, please note that second line on Rta/satya)



At the human level the notion of 'tapas' is related tothe difficult times as well as the austere practicesof those rishis seeking unity in the power of theuniverse:ná tám áMho ná duritaáni mártyam índraavaruNaa nátápaH kútash caná |

yásya devaa gáchatho viithó adhvaráM ná tám mártasyanashate párihvRtiH ||

'No trouble, no misfortune, Indra-Varuna, no woe fromany side assails the mortal manWhose sacrifice, O Gods, ye visit and enjoy: ne'erdoth the crafty guile of mortal injure him.'

VisRSTiThis has been described as the projection of the innerinto the outer. If we return to the nAsadIya sUkta wefind Griffith using the word 'creation'. I wouldsuggest that this is an error if we take 'creation' tomean a 'Big Bang' process in Time with a beginning,middle and end. I do not think that this would agreewith the Vedic vision that does not seem to have sucha word for Time in this sense, they only seem to havea 'middle' as it were. The word being translated ascreation is visRSTi but a better translation would beemanation, an ongoing, beginningless and endlesssingle event that is ever changing but ever completein itself.

RV. X. 129.6,7kó addhaá veda ká ihá prá vocat kúta aájaataa kútaiyáM vísRSTiH |arvaág devaá asyá visárjanenaáthaa kó veda yátaaababhuúva ||

'Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whenceit was born and whence comes this creation?TheGods are later than this world's production. Whoknows then whence it first came into being?'

iyáM vísRSTir yáta aababhuúva yádi vaa dadhé yádi vaaná |yó asyaádhyakSaH paramé vyòman só aÑgá veda yádi vaaná véda ||

'He, the first origin of this creation, whether heformed it all or did not form it,Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, heverily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.'



As with so many Sanskrit words, visRSTi, contains themeaning of movement, a going outward and in thefollowing it signifies the confident, powerfulmovement of the warrior about to overcome all thelesser powers of the physical world.

RV I.122..11sá vraádhato náhuSo dáMsujuutaH shárdhastaro naraáMguurtáshravaaHvísRSTaraatir yaati baaLhasR'tvaa víshvaasu pRtsúsádam íc chuúraH'That man, most puissant, wondrously urged onward,famed among heroes, liberal in giving,Moveth a warrior, evermore undaunted in all encounterseven with the mighty.'

From the older hymns of the RigVeda the word bringswith it this expansive, freeing meaning as in thefollowing which notes how the hymn, emanating from atongue freed from minor matters, draws down Indra intothe ritual event, an event in which Indra himself lieswaiting to be released. That last point is veryimportant and will be returned to later.

RV VII.24.2gRbhiitáM te mána indra dvibárhaaH sutáH sómaHpáriSiktaa mádhuuni | vísRSTadhenaa bharate suvRktíriyám índraM jóhuvatii maniiSaá ||

'Indra, thy wish, twice-strong, is comprehended:pressed is the Soma, poured are pleasant juices.This hymn of praise, from loosened tongue, madeperfect, draws Indra to itself with loud invoking'

The power of speech to fulfil this intention in theemanation is beautifully illustrated in the followinghymn to VAk, in which Vrtra is to be slain and theintuited speech to be set free to fill the ritualevent through the command of Indra.

RV.VIII. 100deviíM vaácam ajanayanta devaás taáM vishváruupaaHpashávo vadanti |saá no mandréSam uúrjaM dúhaanaa dhenúr vaág asmaánúpa súSTutaítu ||

'The Deities generated Vak the Goddess, and animals ofevery figure speak her.May she, the Gladdener, yielding food and vigour, theMilch-cow Vak, approach us meetly lauded.sákhe viSNo vitaráM ví kramasva dyaúr dehí lokáMvájraaya viSkábhe |hánaava vRtráM riNácaava síndhuun índrasya yantu



prasavé vísRSTaaH ||

'Step forth with wider stride, my comrade Visnu; makeroom, Dyaus, for the leaping of the lightning.Let us slay Vrtra, let us free the rivers let themflow loosed at the command of Indra'

SomaI do not want to get into a discussion as to whetherSoma is merely an intoxicating herb pressed out duringa ritual or an inner spiritual 'pressing' ofinspiration. That can be dealt with later. But as theword appears in the hymns above I thought that itwould be of interest here, in this section that isreally looking as yajna. This is a story from theSatapatha Brahmana for the etymological derivation ofsoma.Shatapatha Brahmana, (3.9.4.22-23) 'Now as to why heis called Soma. When he first became sacrificial foodfor the gods, he thought within him, 'I must notbecome sacrificial food for the gods with my wholeself!' That form of his which was most pleasing heaccordingly put aside. Thereupon the gods werevictorious; they said, 'Draw that unto thee, fortherewith thou shalt become our food!' He drew it untohim even from afar, saying, verily, that is mine own(sva me), hence he was called soma. Then as to why heis called yagn[a (sacrifice). Now when they press him,they slay him; and when they spread him, they causehim to be born. He is born in being spread along, heis born moving (yan gayate): hence yan-ga for yan[ga,they say, is the same as yagn[a.' (translation byMuller.)

This theme can be followed throughout the traditionthrough such as Vishnu's incarnation asyajn[a-varaaha. The primeval boar signifyingsacrifice, in the Kalika-Purana,( Chapter 30), in theAtharva Veda, 9.5. Krishna Yajur Veda 9.21.

Message 23153 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:54 amSubject: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas Rtam/satyam

--- ymoharir <[email protected]> wrote:> While trying to understand "R^ita and satya" which



> has been partially> elaborated in various Advatin posts..............> Any thoughts !!?

Namaste Dr Yadu and others who pass this way,

Here is this morning's study on Rtam/Satyam. I hopethat it is relevant. I did do somthing using Panini'sDhattupatha but will hold it in storage.

Whenever we are dealing with sruti such as the Rgvedawe need to hold in mind the three levels of meaningoccurring at the same time in the same sound. Thesemay accord with the 'inner space', 'outer space' ofthe pot and the undivided space that they are eachpervaded by. ( I will be using more traditionallanguage for these three in a posting on YAska laterthis week).In the outer, the world of seeming duality, Rtam andsatyam as words can come to be defined as 'truth' or'righteousness' but there is a danger in suchlimitation so that confusion reigns. In the innerspace, where division of ideas first occurs for thepurposes of understanding, we can intuit differentemphases of that single power which seems to sustainand direct what we call the universe.

Starting with the traditional understanding that maybe derived from the recent posts in this June topic:'Sat means what exists, being, and satya what is inaccordance with sat, hence truth. But the action, atall levels, which takes place in accordance with truthand is thus also truth itself is Rta. Satya isknowledge of truth, Rta is action according to suchknowledge.'I think that definition works at all levels but pleasecorrect me if necessary.

Can we please now put this into the context which wecould construct from the recent 'key word' postings.And also seek guidance from the Rgveda.The singers of the hymns seek to internalise thatpower from which emanates the sounds and sights beforethem, to harness or focus it:'..straining after an inspired thought like aspirited, well-yoked horse.' RV. III.38.1This is the meaning of brahman in the Rgvedic hymns asan immense power realised in the human psyche andexpressed through the Word of the mantra. Thechanting and controlled preparation in the ritualproduces an inner heat or tapas, that heat is the sameas that original concentration of Tad Ekam asdiscussed in the nAsadIya sUktam: hymn of creation. It



is no more nor less than the Self being drawn toItself through Itself to use later terminologyalthough I believe the concept is the same.

This process stimulates the faculty of dhI within thehuman psyche so we may simplify the process into:inspiration, vision, action.RV. VIII. 35.16bráhma jinvatam utá jinvataM dhíyo hatáM rákSaaMsisédhatam ámiivaaH |sajóSasaa uSásaa suúryeNa ca sómaM sunvató ashvinaa ||

'Give spirit to our prayer and animate our thoughts;slay ye the Raksasas and drive away disease.Accordant, of One mind with Surya and with Dawn, -thepresser's Soma, Asvins drink.'

In a later hymn it is clearly stated that this vision,dhI, is rooted in Rta, granted to us through the artof the ancestors of the rishis, the pitris. It is thelatter who reached heaven through realising the lightemerging through the Dawn. This allows the rishi to dothe same and hence, because the event emanates out ofRta, enables the 'the praising of eternal order(Truth) and results in correct thought (see verse 2below).

RV X 67.1,2imaáM dhíyaM saptáshiirSNiim pitaá na RtáprajaataambRhatiím avindat |turiíyaM svij janayad vishvájanyo .ayaásya ukthámíndraaya sháMsan ||

'This holy hymn, sublime and sevenheaded, sprung frometernal Law, our sire discovered.Ayasya, friend of all men, hath engendered the fourthhymn as he sang his laud to Indra.'

RtáM sháMsanta Rjú diídhyaanaa divás putraásoásurasya viiraáH |vípram padám áÑgiraso dádhaanaa yajñásya dhaámaprathamám mananta ||

T'hinking aright, praising eternal Order, the sons ofDyaus the Asura, those heroesAngirases, holding the rank of sages, first honouredsacrifice's holy statute.'

Right thought, rooted in truth, alone can bring forththe spiritual insight to flower and fruit in action.This then is the entry of Rta into the life of thoseseeking truth in thought and action aiming for themaximum 'crop' for the benefit of all. Rta is the



cosmic order from which issues everything, all divinelaws or statutes, which the gods must understand andobey, which humans need to reflect upon (contemplate)to manifest in truth-full action. That which allowssuch discriminated action is satyam. It is the lightof the true sun.

RV III.39 5-8sákhaa ha yátra sákhibhir návagvair abhijñv aásátvabhir gaá anugmán |satyáM tád índro dashábhir dáshagvaiH suúryaM vivedatámasi kSiyántam||índro mádhu sámbhRtam usríyaayaam padvád vivedashaphávan náme góH |gúhaa hitáM gúhyaM guuLhám apsú háste dadhe dákSiNedákSiNaavaan ||jyótir vRNiita támaso vijaanánn aaré syaama duritaádabhiíkeimaá gíraH somapaaH somavRddha juSásvendrapurutámasya kaaróH ||jyótir yajñaáya ródasii ánu Syaad aaré syaamaduritásya bhuúreH |bhuúri cid dhí tujató mártyasya supaaraáso vasavobarháNaavat ||

'Where as a Friend with friendly men, Navagvas, withheroes, on his knees he sought the cattle.There, verily with ten Dasagvas Indra found the Sunlying hidden in the darkness.6 Indra found meath collected in the milch-cow, byfoot and hoof, in the cow's place of pasture.That which lay secret, hidden in the waters, he heldin his right hand, the rich rewarder.7 He took the light, discerning it from darkness: maywe be far removed from all misfortune.These songs, O Soma-drinker, cheered by Soma, Indra,accept from thy most zealous poet.8 Let there be light through both the worlds forworship: may we be far from most overwhelming evil.Great woe comes even from the hostile mortal, piledup; but good at rescue are the Vasus.'

Returning to the later collection of hymns in MandalaX. 111, 1,2:

mániiSiNaH prá bharadhvam maniiSaáM yáthaa-yathaamatáyaH sánti nRNaám |índraM satyaír érayaamaa kRtébhiH sá hí viirógirvaNasyúr vídaanaH ||

'Bring forth your sacred song ye prudent singers, evenas are the thoughts of human beings.Let us draw Indra with true deeds near us: he lovesour songs, the Hero, and is potent.'



2 Rtásya hí sádaso dhiitír ádyaut sáM gaarSTeyóvRSabhó góbhir aanaT |úd atiSThat taviSéNaa ráveNa mahaánti cit sáMvivyaacaa rájaaMsi ||

'The hymn shone brightly from the seat of worship: tothe kine came the Bull, the Heifer's OffspringWith mighty bellowing hath he arisen, and hathpervaded even the spacious regions.'

I hope that this little exploration is enough to getyou replying with further insights of your own.

Message 23154 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 9:54 amSubject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas Rtam- the Cosmic Order !

Thank you kindly, Ken-Knightji !

Although born a Hindu, i never had a chance to read such beautifulexcerpts from the Rg Veda presented in this orderly fashion. I was inmy own world of 'Maya' and more 'Maya.' Thank you for bringing medown to Earth( prithvi) and introducing me to the world of RTA- SATYA-DHARMA !

RTa- the Cosmic order

"Firmly fixed are the foundations of rta shining in beauty, manifoldare its beauteous forms. "

(Rigveda 4.23.9 )

Rta is:

for the Hindus

the blue print for cosmic harmony

-Dharma

for the Chinese

the mystical path

-Tao

for the Muslims



the inflexible yet all merciful decrees of divine

-Haqq

For the Greco-Romans

the form of universal reason

-logos

for the Buddhists

the law of righteousness

-Dhamma

"The concept of Rta, originates in the Rigveda (10.85; 4.23, 9-12;10.190). In the Vedic vision the universe is not conceived as ahaphazard mass of elements and events, but is an ordered whole, inwhich each part inheres the whole and the whole is balanced by itsparts. The ordering principle of nature, the inflexible law ofharmony, the universal cosmic flow which gives to everything from thevast galaxies, down to the nucleus of an atom, their nature andcourse, is Rta. Rta then, is observable everywhere.

Rta governs the movement of the heavenly bodies, Rta commands theshift and play of the seasons, Ritu; and it is Rta which guides therepeated round of birth, growth and decay of all life-forms. Rtalives in each human being as the pulsation of the heart-beat and theinnumerable rhythms that balance life.

The principle of Rta is not unique to India. Parallel concepts arefound in all the ancient civilizations of the world. Chinese culturedescribes it as the principle of Tao, Islamic thought as theprinciple of Haqq, Greco-Roman culture as Logos and the Buddhists asDhamma. In all cultures the concept is unanimously accepted as a blue-print of Cosmic Harmony. Furthermore, this all-inclusive principle ofcosmic harmony and human order pervades all the aspects of life: thenatural world, the human world, the social world of every daycommunity life, the moral world, as also, the realm of arts,creativity and architecture. Rta is also embodied in the ecologicalprinciple of inter-dependence, balance and interrelationship of alllife. The seasonal cycles or Ritu Chakra through spring-time andharvest, are grounded in the principle of harmony and universalorder; it is Rta which sustains the eco-balance of nature. Humans donot stand apart from nature but are a part of the larger cosmic flow.This integral bond between humans and nature became a basis for theseasonal celebrations, stimulated with prayers, incantations andsacred performances. The construction of sacred ritual practices andthe participation in secular celebrations, are ways to mirror a



larger cosmic order as it is conceived by that people. While Rtadenotes order, its opposite manifestation is Anrta, disorder. Thesetwo mutually dependent principles form two sides of a single cosmicprocess."

Kenji, it gives me great delight to introduce to this audience avisual exhibition on this subject -RTA and Ritu Chakra , held inDalhi, India .

PLEASE visit

http://www.ignca.nic.in/ex025001.htm - 17k - Cached

AND ENJOY THE BEAUTY AND SPLENDOR OF THE COSMIC ORDER IN PICTORIALEXHIBITS.

Message 23155 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: Benjamin <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 10:06 amSubject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas Rtam- the Cosmic Order !

Namaste,

"Firmly fixed are the foundations of rta shining in beauty,manifold are its beauteous forms. "(Rigveda 4.23.9 )

The concept of Rta or Cosmic Harmony reveals a basically scientificattitude: the universe (both external and internal) proceedsaccording to laws. This is also reflected in the key Indianspiritual pillars of karma and yoga.

Contrast this with the notion of reward and punishment for good andbad deeds. Which do you think sounds more 'scientific', and which doyou think is aimed at a childlike mentality?

Einstein liked Buddhism because it seemed 'rational' and 'scientific'to him. Buddhism reflects common Hindu values with the theologicalapparatus stripped away. Good for export...

Hari Om!Benjamin

Message 23157 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "ymoharir" <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 11:57 amSubject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas Rtam/satyam



Thank you Ken Ji:

Now please allow me to add my 1 and 1/4th Cents of my take onthe "Rîta and satya".

I was precisely trying to lead you to the real purpose of using thesetwo terms in the same sentence as a part covenant.

Mahabharata tells us that interpretation of Veda should be achievedthrough itihaasa (history) and puraana.

itihAsapurANAbhyaM vedaM samupabRîmhayet |bibhyetyalpashrutaad vedo maamayaM prahariShyati ||

Meaning - One must use itihaasa and puraana for furthering theirunderstanding veda (upabRîhaNa). Here, Veda Vyasa calls (or ratherclassifies) a person who know veda but not the puraaNa asbeing "alpashruta". He further goes on to say that veda is afraid ofthem as if "they (veda)" are going to be attacked (incorrectintrepretation).

satya by definition - kaala trayaa baaddhyam (true during all thethree periods (past, present and future). Because truth is digital.it's value is either "1" or "0". There is no such thing as partialtruth. Process of arriving at that truth can be analogue. Thereforeit is fairly easy to comprehend the meaning of satya.

There real problem starts when one tries to understand the expressionRîta. As Kenji pointed out is the outer, the world of seemingduality, Rtam and satyam as words can come to be defined as `truth' or`righteousness' but there is a danger in such limitation so thatconfusion reigns. In the inner space, where division of ideas firstoccurs for the purposes of understanding, we can intuit differentemphases of that single power which seems to sustain and direct whatwe call the universe.

Now understanding why Rîta and Satya are expressed in the samesentence actually provides some additional leads to further ourunderstanding of this expression.

[R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one perceives, which mayor may not be the real.

Rîta then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth, which may or maynot be necessarily true as far as the observer is concerned. Basedon maayaa.

On an individual basis all saadhana is an expedition of finding thetruth for themselves. Thus, this journey rests on the shoulders ofRîta and satya. This satisfies various levels for this expression.



In scientific terms Rîta and Stya can be well illustrated by weightand mass.

Mass is always supposed to remain the same. However, it's weight canchange depending on gravity.

A 100 kg GOLD on the Earth will weigh approx 22 kg on the Moon, dueto the low gradational pull. (The reason I used the example of Goldis because pure Gold will always maintain its chemical purity.)

Here, Mass = satya and Rîta = Weight

Thus individual saadhanaa begins on the foundation of observed truth(Rîta) and ends that chapter when the absolute "satys" isencountered.

Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret these two termstogether rather than separate in order to further our ownunderstanding regardless on the subject matter and therefore musthave become a part and parcel of the our rituals.

I would like to learn more of your thoughts on this interpretation.

Regards,

Dr. Yadu

Message 23158 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:58 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Comment on discussion so far

Search. Compare. Save.

--- Benjamin <[email protected]> wrote:>

> An anonymous list member just commented to me that> there's not much> discussion yet on this month's topic, unlike> before...

Good evening Benjamin,Sunderji really gave me a monumental task with thistitle and I had to try to find a way to present thetopic so that we did not proceed without making someeffort to come to grips with a context very differentfrom that which some of us know while others have beenacquainted with it since birth.As I began, 'This is the advaitin site, Jim, but notas we know it.' If I am taking the wrong approach then



can the moderators please let me know, although my ownpersonal measure will be applied when we reach thesecond stage of the study and when people have achance to look at the use of mAyA in the Vedas.>> I think it is because Kenji is making us WORK, with> long and> substantial postings. Real homework! People would> rather just> express their own opinions.

The work, always, is to let go of all previousunderstanding. If we are to hear the sound of theVedas we bring everything to the sacrificial fire.The hymns are immensely rich, everything that any ofus needs to make us wealthy, in a true sense, isthere.Any sacrifice needs a prepared place and necessarytools. I am trying to facilitate the sacrifice in anexperimental way in cyber-space. As I have tended toemphasise in the postings, we in urbanised, literateenvironments are being expected to fly with one strongwing and one withered; the analytical approach hasbeen well nourished but the intuitive has beenneglected. Most of us have not learned to listenattentively within to the sound of sruti.The Vedas will not respond to the analytical alone, asa Sufi poet wrote:'Enter the chamber of the heart and clean it out, thenleave and the Lord will fill it with his glories.'

Thank you for your patience and good fortune with youradvaita paper. Even if you are scanning thesepostings I know that some verse from the Rgveda willleap out at you. That is why I am graduallyintroducing more of the words of the hymns, they arefar more important than my rambling explanations,

Thank you for taking the time to comment,

Ken Knight

Message 23159 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 5:36 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas Rtam/satyam

--- ymoharir <[email protected]> wrote:>>> Mahabharata tells us that interpretation of Veda



> should be achieved> through itihaasa (history) and puraana.

Namaste,That is what I am trying to present in these postingsbut also to prepare the way for direct experience, theeureka moment, when the flash of lightning releasesthe cows from the cave.Interpretation has temporary value, when the ahaMkAraclaims it then adhyasa and avidya reign. The futureYaska posting is going to be important on this matterof interpretation.

> Now understanding why R^ita and Satya are expressed> in the same> sentence actually provides some additional leads to> further our> understanding of this expression.>> [R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one> perceives, which may> or may not be the real.>> R^ita then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth,> which may or may> not be necessarily true as far as the observer is> concerned. Based> on maayaa.

Again can we please be careful here. I am trying toavoid the use of the word mAyA at this stage becauseit would be an error to bring the later interpretationof mAyA into a discussion of Vedic terms such as Rtaand satya.>> Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret> these two terms> together rather than separate in order to further> our own> understanding regardless on the subject matter and> therefore must> have become a part and parcel of the our rituals.

Yes indeed. As the Vedas themselves combine these twowords on so many occasions I should have followedtheir lead and presented them together in the originalkey-words list. Your postings have encouraged me totry to correct the original omission.

I need people with the cultural background andexperience to pick up these points and I thank youagain,



Ken Knight

Message 23159 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 5:36 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas Rtam/satyam

--- ymoharir <[email protected]> wrote:>>> Mahabharata tells us that interpretation of Veda> should be achieved> through itihaasa (history) and puraana.

Namaste,That is what I am trying to present in these postingsbut also to prepare the way for direct experience, theeureka moment, when the flash of lightning releasesthe cows from the cave.Interpretation has temporary value, when the ahaMkAraclaims it then adhyasa and avidya reign. The futureYaska posting is going to be important on this matterof interpretation.

> Now understanding why R^ita and Satya are expressed> in the same> sentence actually provides some additional leads to> further our> understanding of this expression.>> [R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one> perceives, which may> or may not be the real.>> R^ita then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth,> which may or may> not be necessarily true as far as the observer is> concerned. Based> on maayaa.

Again can we please be careful here. I am trying toavoid the use of the word mAyA at this stage becauseit would be an error to bring the later interpretationof mAyA into a discussion of Vedic terms such as Rtaand satya.>> Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret> these two terms> together rather than separate in order to further



> our own> understanding regardless on the subject matter and> therefore must> have become a part and parcel of the our rituals.

Yes indeed. As the Vedas themselves combine these twowords on so many occasions I should have followedtheir lead and presented them together in the originalkey-words list. Your postings have encouraged me totry to correct the original omission.

I need people with the cultural background andexperience to pick up these points and I thank youagain,

Ken KnightMessage 23160 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "ymoharir" <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 7:37 pmSubject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas Rtam/satyam

Dear KenJi:

I really appreciate you taking on such a difficult task on embarkingon the current topic.

I just hope that people have patience with this extremely difficultsubject matter.

Understanding the key phrases and words hold the keys forunderstanding. Just like if one want to understand trigonometry, oneneed to have some understanding of geometry and algebra. One mustgraduate from one grade before trying to rush on the higher gradewith partial and/or superficial understanding.

We need instant gratification, even if that were possible, butbelieve me it will always lead to more questions of maaya.

Actually I am all ears and anxious to learn more on this subject.More & more I read, learn; more & more I realize how little I haveunderstood.

Just my 1 and 1/4th Cents.

Regards,

Dr. Yadu



--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:>> --- ymoharir <ymoharir@y...> wrote:> >>> > Mahabharata tells us that interpretation of Veda> > should be achieved> > through itihaasa (history) and puraana.>> Namaste,> That is what I am trying to present in these postings> but also to prepare the way for direct experience, the> eureka moment, when the flash of lightning releases> the cows from the cave.> Interpretation has temporary value, when the ahaMkAra> claims it then adhyasa and avidya reign. The future> Yaska posting is going to be important on this matter> of interpretation.>> > Now understanding why R^ita and Satya are expressed> > in the same> > sentence actually provides some additional leads to> > further our> > understanding of this expression.> >> > [R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one> > perceives, which may> > or may not be the real.> >> > R^ita then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth,> > which may or may> > not be necessarily true as far as the observer is> > concerned. Based> > on maayaa.>>> Again can we please be careful here. I am trying to> avoid the use of the word mAyA at this stage because> it would be an error to bring the later interpretation> of mAyA into a discussion of Vedic terms such as Rta> and satya.> >> > Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret> > these two terms> > together rather than separate in order to further> > our own> > understanding regardless on the subject matter and> > therefore must> > have become a part and parcel of the our rituals.>> Yes indeed. As the Vedas themselves combine these two> words on so many occasions I should have followed> their lead and presented them together in the original> key-words list. Your postings have encouraged me to



> try to correct the original omission.>> I need people with the cultural background and> experience to pick up these points and I thank you> again,> Ken Knight ========================================================= Message 23161 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "advaitins" <[email protected]> Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 8:24 pm Subject: Re: Comment on discussion so far

Namaste Kenji,

We could not have wished for a better expositor than you for this subject!

We would not want to hamper your approach in any way whatsoever, for you have the experience of many years in explaining this.

I derive great satisfaction in the sober advice of the Gita, in the following verses: 18:37; 15:15; 10:42

Gita

18:36. Now hear from Me, O scion of the Bharata dynasty, as regards the three kinds of joy: That in which one delights owing to habit, and certainly attains the cessation of sorrows; [S. and S.S. take the second line of this verse along with the next verse referring to sattvika happiness.-Tr.] Idanim, now; srnu, hear; me, from Me i.e. be attentive to what I say; tu, as regards; the trividham, three kinds of; sukham, joy, O scion of the Bharata dynasty. Yatra, that in which; ramate, one delights, derives pleasure; abhyasat, owing to habit, due to frequent repetition; and in the experinece of which joy one nigacchati, certainly attains; duhkhantam, the cessation of sorrow-. 18:37. That which is like poison in the beginning, but comparable to nectar in the end, and which, arises from the purity of one's intellect-that joy is spoken of as born of sattva. Yat, that joy which is; iva, like; visam, poison, a source of pain; agre, in the beginning-when it first comes in the early stages of (acquisition) of knowledge, detachment, meditation and absorption, since they involve great struggle; but amrtopamam, comparable to nectar; pariname, in the end, when it arises from the maturity of knowledge, detachment, etc.; and which atma-buddhi-prasadajam, arises from the purity (prasada), trasparence like water, of one's intellect (atma-buddhi); tat, that; sukham, joy; is proktam, spoken of, by the learned ones ;as sattvikam, born of sattva. Or, the phrase atma- buddhi-prasadajam may mean 'arising from the high degree of clearness



of that atma-buddhi (knowledge of or connected with the Self)'; therefore it is born of sattva. ----------------------------------------------------------------------

15:15. And I am seated in the hearts of all. From Me are memory, knowledge and their loss. I alone am the object to be known through all the Vedas; I am also the originator of the Vedanta, and I Myself am the knower of the Vedas. And aham, I, as the Self; san-nivistah, am seated; hrdi, in the hearts, in the intellects; sarvasya, of all creatures. Therefore, with regard to all the creatures, mattah, from Me, from the Self; are Smrtih, memory; jnanam, knowledge; and their apohanam, loss. The knowledge and memory of these creatures who perform good deeds come from Me in accordance with the good deeds; similarly, the loss, deterioration, of memory and knowledge of those who perform evil deeds comes from Me in accordance with the evil deeds. Aham eva, I alone, the supreme Self; am the vedyah, object to be known; sarvaih, through all; vedaih, the Vedas. I am also the vedanta- krt, the originator of the Vedanta, i.e., the source of the traditional school of the teachings of Vedanta; and aham eva, I Myself; am the veda-vit, knower of the Vedas, the knower of the teachings of the Vedas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------

10:42. Or, on the other hand, what is the need of your knowing this extensively, O Arjuna? I remain sustaining this whole creation in a special way with a part (of Myself). Athava, or, on the other hand; kim, what is the need; of tava jnatena, your knowing; etena bahuna, this extensively-but imcompletely-in the above manner, O Arjuna? You listen to this subject that is going to be stated in its fullness: Aham, I; sthitah, remain; vistabhya, sustaining, supporting, holding firmly, in a special way; idam, this; krtsnam, whole; jagat, creation; ekamsena, by a part, by a foot [The Universe is called a foot of His by virtue of His having the limiting adjunct of being its efficient and material cause.] (of Myself), i.e. as the Self of all things [As the material and the efficient cause of all things]. The Vedic text, 'All beings form a foot of His' (Rg., Pu. Su. 10.90.3; Tai. Ar. 3.12.3) support this. [A Form constituted by the whole of creation has been presented in this chapter for meditation. Thereby the unqualified transcendental Reality, implied by the word tat (in tattva-masi) and referred to by the latter portion of the Commentator's quotation (viz tripadasyamrtam divi: The immortal three-footed One is established in His own effulgence), becomes established.]

Regards,

Sunder



--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote: > > --- Benjamin <orion777ben@y...> wrote: > > > > > An anonymous list member just commented to me that

> As I began, `This is the advaitin site, Jim, but not > as we know it.' If I am taking the wrong approach then > can the moderators please let me know, although my own > personal measure will be applied when we reach the > second stage of the study and when people have a > chance to look at the use of mAyA in the Vedas. ================================================================== Message 23165 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight <[email protected]> Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 4:35 am Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: Comment on discussion so far

--- advaitins <[email protected]> wrote:

>...... for you have the experience of many > years in explaining > this.

Namaste Sunderji,

Firstly thank you for the wonderful sruti (smriti if the Gita is to be so designated). Well chosen and very apt in its universality.

Please may I refer to your above statement for I do not want this site's membership to be misled. My study of the Rgveda is limited to two years at the most. I would not have dared to undertake such a task if it were not for your request.

If anything of value is to come out of the postings it is through the graceful presence and direction of Sri Anandamayi Ma and Dr Gopinath Kaviraj. However, I do also need those of you born into this tradition to guide and correct. Also, I fully respect the position of the orthodox who would suggest that as a mleccha I should not study such texts. However the prarabhda of this lifetime has had some strange events to work out, one being a vasana impelling a profound love of South Asian wisdom teaching.



Earlier today I sent the following to someone who had contacted me off list but I think that maybe it is of value to all. Swami Chinmayananda writes this in his commentary on the second sloka of the Kaivalya Upanishad: 'Thus Brahmavidya, the Science of Life, is to be understood according to the stanza," by means of faith (Sraddha), devotion (Bhakti) and meditation (Dhyana)". The statement is very significant. Faith has been described as "that faculty of the human intellect by which it can reflect and understand the deeper imports of the scriptural declarations and there-after assimilate those ideas into the very texture of the intellect". This power of understanding and assimilating new ideas, so as to evolve itself, is called Sraddha. Thus essentially, Sraddha is the function of the intellect. It is the power of Self-education.'

As we know, the root of Sraddha is Sru, to listen and it is the mindfulness of listening that we need to understand the sUktas of the RgVeda.

I will post the next step in the mAyA in the Vedas series later tonight.

Thank you for your encouragement,

Ken Knight =============================================================== Message 23167 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight <[email protected]> Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:30 am Subject: Storytime

Namaste all, Following Sunderji's posting earlier today in which sattva and the balance of the gunas was described through the teachings of Sri Krishna. We do need to study Bhagavad Gita, 13 'Kshetra Kshetrajna Vibhaga Yoga' but maybe a story from Ramakrishna will be illustrative:

IN THE FOREST OF THE WORLD

Once a man was going through a forest, when ' three robbers fell upon him and robbed him of all his possessions. One of the robbers said, "What's the use



of keeping this man alive?" So saying, he was about to kill him with his sword, when the second robber interrupted him, saying: "Oh! no! What is the use of killing him? Tie his hand and foot and leave him here." The robbers bound his hands and feet and went away. After a while the third robber returned and said to the man: "Ah, I am sorry. Are you hurt? I will release you from your bonds." After setting the man free, the thief said: "Come with me. I will take you to the public high way." After a long time they reached the road. At this the man said: "Sir, you have been very good to me. Come with me to my house." "Oh, no!" the robber replied. " I can't go there. The police will know it."

This world itself is the forest. The three robbers prowling here are sattva, rajas, and tamas. It is they that rob a man of the Knowledge of Truth. Tamas wants to destroy him. Rajas binds him to the world. But sattva rescues him from the clutches of rajas and tamas. Under the protection of sattva, man is rescued from anger, passion and other evil effects of tamas. Further, sattva loosens the bonds of the world. But sattva also is a robber. It cannot give man the ultimate Knowledge of Truth, though it shows him the road leading to the Supreme Abode of God, Setting him on the path, sattva tells him: "Look yonder. There is your home." Even sattva is far away from the knowledge of Brahman.'

Best wishes

ken Knight

========================================================= Message 23172 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight <[email protected]> Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 5:38 pm Subject: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

Namaste all, In order to take the step into understanding mAyA in the Rgveda saMhitA then this posting is a key one.

Ken Knight

That One and the Many



I begin by quoting again: 'All gods of one accord, with one intention, move unobstructed to a single purpose' for it demonstrates that although a diversity of names had been given to the various powers in the physical environment, there was also a clear understanding of a unity behind and communion of purpose in this diversity. This unity is clearly stated in the following índram mitráM váruNam agním aahur átho divyáH sá suparNó garútmaan | ékaM sád vípraa bahudhaá vadanty agníM yamám maataríshvaanam aahuH ||

'They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman. To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.' RV I.164.46

So the seers speculated as to the source of these multivarious sounds (names) and powers manifesting in their environment. But they were not so concerned with reaching the 'silence and stillness' that may exist beyond the sounds. They speak of ninyA vacAMsi, 'the words rising from the depths', but there is no use ( as far as I know at the moment ) of such words as 'mauna' or 'mouna' which is that silence which is later regarded as being the truth of Brahman, or that silence discovered by the 'knower of Brahman' while in union in stillness.

( Bit extra: There is a word that is used in the Rgveda for stillness and silence, nisvara, literally meaning 'no sound'. This is also a name for Agni. However it is not placed as the pinnacle of spiritual experience. Nisvara is used on two occasions, both being in pleas for help in dissolving demonic opponents seen to be the cause of problems. We may empathise with the poet when we are faced with a toothache or unwanted, persistent thoughts and willing them to quieten down, or in my case, chitchat when socialising:

vishvA agne.apa dahArAtIryebhistapobhiradaho jarUtham | pra nisvaraM cAtayasvAmIvAm || 'Burn up all malice with those flames, O Agni, wherewith of old thou burntest up Jarutha, And drive away in silence pain and sickness.' RV. VII.1.7 tápurvadhebhir ajárebhir atríNo ní párshaane vidhyataM yántu nisvarám || '(Send) Eternal, scorching darts; plunge the voracious ones within the depth, and let them sink without a



sound.' RV VII.104.5 There is a suggestion that this might be a request for help in overcoming an opponent in a forum for the poets to display their skills in debate or philosophical discourse such as that between Mandana and Shankara.)

The substratum that is all-pervading was titled 'That One', tad ekam, and it 'existed' through its own power, svadha, and there was nothing but itself. It is unique in its self-witnessing power.

ná mRtyúr aasiid amR'taM ná tárhi ná raátryaa áhna aasiit praketáH | aániid avaatáM svadháyaa tád ékaM tásmaad dhaanyán ná paráH kíM canaása ||

'Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider. That One, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.' RV. X.129.2

This is the nAsadIya: hymn of creation that has already been quoted in previous postings. As one of the most beautiful poems in our history it deserves an extended study on its own but I will briefly dip into it here. 'That One' is a mystery beyond knowing and the power of speech to explain, kó addhaá veda ká ihá prá vocat:

kó addhaá veda ká ihá prá vocat kúta aájaataa kúta iyáM vísRSTiH | arvaág devaá asyá visárjanenaáthaa kó veda yáta aababhuúva ||

'Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation? The gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?' RV X.129. 6

The devAH are here said to have appeared after the universe evolved through love or desire, kAmah, emanating out of the mysterious, fathomless, deep-sounding abyss, gahanaM gabhIram, within 'That One'. Emerging out of the gahanaM gabhIram, kAmah manifests the first atom of mind and it was through the power reflected in their heart/mind that the seers were able to penetrate the universal heart/mind and there discover the truth of existence and non-existence. The individual meets with the universal, vyashti with samashti, and that is the purpose of their tapas and yajna, austerities and



sacrifice.

kAmastadagre samavartatAdhi manaso retaH prathamaM yadAsIt | sato bandhumasati niravindan hRdi pratISyAkavayo manias ||

'Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit ( mind or consciousness). Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.' RV.X 129. 4

Although these sages had come to understand through insight that the manifest forms require an unmanifest substratum, that sound needs silence as it were, they still acknowledged that the ultimate substratum of being and non-being would remain a mystery, ever ineffable, hidden in the great depths of the universal substratum:

iyáM vísRSTir yáta aababhuúva yádi vaa dadhé yádi vaa ná | yó asyaádhyakSaH paramé vyòman só aÑgá veda yádi vaa ná véda ||

'He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world (is the Witness) in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.' RV. X 129.7

As the many devaH emanate out of the single self-power, svadha, of 'That One' through some mysterious process, so too do the devaH and asuraH themselves assume different forms. Agni appears as the flame, the heat of the body and the lightning flash. It is all quite magical how it happens. ======================================================== Message 23174 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: Benjamin <[email protected]> Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:36 pm Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

Namaste Ken-ji

Some comments...

>I begin by quoting again: 'All gods of one accord,



>with one intention, move unobstructed to a single >purpose'

Notice the contrast with the Greek Gods, who were always quarreling. Also, if this goes way back to the Vedas, then it shows that Judaism did not invent the monotheistic concept, i.e. the fundamental unity of the Divine, although the Vedas were perhaps truer to Nature by allowing this unity to be expressed in a diversity of Gods and forms.

>But they were not so concerned with >reaching the 'silence and stillness' >that may exist beyond the sounds.

Well, was it not until the later Upanishads (source of Vedanta or 'end of Vedas') that we see the turn away from ritual to discussions of the 'ineffable' nature of Brahman? Perhaps chanting mantras can be seen as an intermediary stage between the overtly phenomenal rituals of 'ordinary' religion and the inexpressible insights of the Vedanta. Sound has a more tenuous and transcendent nature than ritual, being invisible and evocative. (I'm just speculating and trying to enter into the spirit of your discussion. By the way, one of the more beautiful aspects of Christianity is its music.)

>The substratum that is all-pervading was titled 'That >One', tad ekam, and it 'existed' through its own >power, svadha, and there was nothing but itself. It is >unique in its self-witnessing power.

All quite Advaitic sounding! Notice also that by calling it simply 'That One', its ineffable nature is emphasized.

The Hymn of Creation, which you then quote, never ceases to impress.

>'Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: >no sign was there, the day's and night's divider. >That One, breathless, breathed by its own nature: >apart from it was nothing whatsoever.' RV. X.129.2

I might add that this also sounds like what one might experience in nirvikalpa samadhi. Hence a connection between the inmost depths of meditation and the creation of the cosmos, which are each but two sides of the same coin of consciousness. Indeed, they are the same absolutely.

>'That One' is a mystery beyond knowing and the >power of speech to explain...

Aha! I was right! Good guess! :-)



>The gods are later than this world's production. >Who knows then whence it first came into being?'

A significant advance over merely theistic religion. The ultimate principle of Reality is beyond even the notion of God or Ishwara, as emphasized by Shankara, Ramana and even the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart (viz. God vs. Godhead).

>The devAH are here said to have appeared after the >universe evolved through love or desire, kAmah,

Vedanta and Buddhism both have the insight that it is desire ... primarily desire to BE ... which is the impulse which caused the jiva to manifest in the world of maya. Schopenhauer said something like this too, I believe. This elemental impulse is a rude denial of the fundamentally peaceful and static and unlimited nature of Brahman, which has no need of change or form nor is capable of it, except through the device of illusion. This impulse to be is also the drive to *discriminate* different apparent entities in the homogeneous Consciousness, which produces the mind and all forms of duality and 'existence'. Hence, the fundamentally impure and turbulent nature of samsara, until transcended in wisdom, which is essentially a return to nondual Brahman while perhaps maintaining the multiplicity of samsara in a sublimated state.

And finally, some of my favorite lines:

>Whose eye controls this world (is the Witness) in >highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he >knows not.'

This breathtaking open-mindedness and unabashed inquiry suggests that even God (Ishwara) may not understand the ultimate truth. Contrast that with the dogmatic pieties of other religions. That is why I say that the Vedas do not want us to genuflect to them but rather to absorb their spirit, wherever that may lead...

>It is all quite magical how it happens.

A correct observation!

Hari Om! Benjamin ========================================================= Message 23175 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 7:52 pm Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many



--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote: > Namaste all, > In order to take the step into understanding mAyA in > the Rgveda saMhitA then this posting is a key one. > Namaste.

A few words about the nAsadIya-sUktaM (RV: X-129), the riks from which have been commented upon by Ken-ji in the above post and an earlier post.

It is interesting to note that this entire Rg-Vedic sUktam (X – 129) appears in the Krishna Yajur Veda also, though not in the Samhita portion, but in the Ashtaka portion of the Taittiriya Brahmana. As I had, as a boy, learnt the recitation of it that way, I was not aware that it was one of the sUktas of the Rg Veda and that it was how it was known across the world, until, later in my life, I happened to read AB Keith's History of Sankrit literature. In my learning, it was part of the `udaka-shAnti' mantras that pundits recite in chorus as an hour long recitation for sanctifying Water to be used for ritual purification in all important religious functions, whether at home or in a temple. And here – in this ritualistic use -- lies hidden a key point of advaitic philosophy, to which Ken-ji has referred to in his own original inimitable way.

Ken-ji writes: "it was through the power reflected in their heart/mind that the seers were able to penetrate the universal heart/mind and there discover the truth of existence and non- existence. The individual meets with the universal, vyashti with samashti, and that is the purpose of their tapas and yajna, austerities and sacrifice".

This, I may say, is the key-note of all religious rituals associated with Hinduism. Now the mantras that purify the water kept in a vessel, appeal to Gods Indra, Varuna and the like. But what is the source of power for these gods to purify the water? In fact there is a sukta in the Taittiriya brahmana called `aghamarshana-sukta' which one recites during one's bath, thereby helping his own spiritual purification along with the physical purification. And this sukta, as usual appeals to all gods like Varuna and Indra and to all rivers like Ganga, Yamuna and so on and plead with them to do the purification. Finally the sukta also brings in the sentences "yo'ham-asmi brahma-aham-asmi, aham-asmi brahma-aham-asmi; aham-eva-ahaM mAM juhomi" meaning so much as: `Whoever I am that is brahman, I am brahman, I am nothing but brahman'. Now try to find a logic why this should form part of a purification-mantra!

The only logic is this. No devata – Indra, Varuna, or Ganga or what



you have – can make you perfect and pure until all the impure, all the non-Self, have been thrown away. And that will happen only when the complete identification of not only this Ì" but also everything of ìdam' – this universe – is identified with brahman. And when such an identification takes place there is no more Varuna or Indra or Ganga – there is only brahman. It is only that state which is the state of perfection and purity. This is why every sUkta that is intended for purification, though appealing to `lesser' devatas, finally esoterically has to point out and reiterate the fact that Àll this is brahman'. The universal heart/mind has to be touched and as Ken-ji says, this is the purpose of all tapas, yajna and ritual. And that is why, though I have been reciting the nAsadIya-sUkta from my boyhood as if it were just a routine portion of the udaka-shAnti mantra, it is clear now that it had to be there; for without it there can be no `meeting of the individual with the universal, vyashti with samashti'!

PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda. Profvk ============================================================= Message 23176 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]> Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:01 pm Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote: > > To what is One, sages give many a title they call it > Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.' RV I.164.46 > > So the seers speculated as to the source of these > multivarious sounds (names) and powers manifesting in > their environment. But they were not so concerned with > reaching the `silence and stillness' that may exist > beyond the sounds. They speak of ninyA vacAMsi, `the > words rising from the depths', but there is no use ( > as far as I know at the moment ) of such words as > `mauna' or `mouna' which is that silence which is > later regarded as being the truth of Brahman, or that > silence discovered by the `knower of Brahman' while in > union in stillness.

Namaste Ken-ji,

Thanks again for a stimulating start.

A couple of comments on the above paragraph: The word 'speculated' seems to be an intellectual simplification to describe the ' mantra-drashta's ' (seer) utterance.

The word 'muni' (silent ascetic) occurs in Rigveda in:



10:136, 7:56:8,, 8:17:14 -

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10136.htm

[7:56:8 ; 8:17:14]

HYMN CXXXVI. Kesins.

2 The Munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow hue. They, following the wind's swift course go where the Gods have gone before. 3 Transported with our Munihood we have pressed on into the winds: You therefore, mortal men. behold our natural bodies and no more. 4 The Muni, made associate in the holy work of every God, Looking upon all varied forms flies through the region of the air. 5 The Steed of Vata, Vayu's friend, the Muni, by the Gods impelled, In both the oceans hath his home, in eastern and in western sea.

It occurs in Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya upan. also.

When ONLY the ONE exists, silence would seem to be a natural conclusion; who will hear what? (Brihad. 4:5:15; Kena 1:5 & 8).

When silence (mounam) as the highest form of spiritual initiation has been affirmed from Dakshinamurty to Shankara to Ramana, it may only mean that the extant parts of Rigveda has no reference to it (as we understand it).

Your thoughts on this aspect would be very welcome.

Regards,

Sunder =========================================================== Message 23178 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight <[email protected]> Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:14 am Subject: Re: [advaitin] June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

Namaste All,

How wonderful, how wonderful, how wonderful!!! Three wonderful replies. The nasadIya sUkta sings through all generations. I am going to settle to reply to each of yours but may not be able to post until this evening, so please forgive any tardiness.



Reading your three replies I was minded of the following. Is it scripture? I think so. Where is it from? That sun-rise of inspiration in an indivdual known as Kenneth Grahame. It is extracted from a chapter...'Piper at the Gates of Dawn'...from a children's book, 'Wind in the Willows'.

Scene. A young otter has gone missing and two friends, Rat and Mole, set off in search of the youngster even though it is late in the night. Would our Vedic ancestors have smiled in recognition? I think so:

'The line of the horizon was clear and hard against the sky, and in one particular quarter it showed black against a silvery climbing phosphorescence that grew and grew. At last, over the rim of the waiting earth the moon lifted with slow majesty till it swung clear of the horizon and rode off, free of moorings; and once more they began to see surfaces; meadows widespread, and quiet gardens, and the river itself from bank to bank, all softly disclosed, all washed clean of mystery and terror, all radiant again as by day, but with a difference that was tremendous Their old haunts greeted them again in other raiment, as if they had slipped away and put on this pure new apparel and come quietly back, smiling as they shyly waited to see if they would be recognized again under it. Fastening their boat to a willow, the friends landed in this silent, silver kingdom, and patiently explored the hedges, the hollow trees, the tunnels and their little culverts, the ditches and dry waterways. Embarking again and crossing over, they worked their way up the stream in this manner, while the moon, serene and detached in a cloudless sky, did what she could, though so far off, to help them in their quest; till her hour came and she sank earthwards reluctantly, and left them, and mystery once more held field and river. Then a change began slowly to declare itself. The horizon became clearer, field and tree came more into sight, and somehow with a different look; the mystery began to drop away from them. A bird piped suddenly, and was still; and a light breeze sprang up and set the reeds and bulrushes rustling. Rat, who was in the stern of the boat, while Mole sculled, sat up suddenly and listened with a passionate intentness. Mole, who with gentle strokes was just keeping the boat moving while he scanned the banks with care, looked at him with curiosity. "It's gone!" sighed the Rat, sinking back in his seat again. "So beautiful and strange and new! Since it was



to end so soon, I almost wish I had never heard it. For it has mused a longing in me that is pain, and nothing seems worth while but just to hear that sound once more and go on listening to it for ever."

"No! There it is again!" he cried, alert once more. Entranced, he was silent for a long space, spellbound. "Now it passes on, and I begin to lose it," he said presently. "O, Mole! the beauty of it! The merry bubble and joy, the thin, clear, happy call of the distant piping. Such music I never dreamed of, and the call in it is stronger even than the music is sweet! Row on, Mole, row! For the music and the call must be for us." The Mole, greatly wondering, obeyed. "I hear nothing myself,' he said, "but the wind playing in the reeds and rushes and osiers." The Rat never answered, if indeed he heard. Rapt, transported, trembling, he was possessed in all his senses by this new divine thing that caught up his helpless soul and swung and dandled it, a powerless but happy infant, in a strong sustaining grasp. In silence Mole rowed steadily and soon they came to a point where the river divided, a long backwater branching off to one side. With a slight movement of his head Rat, who had long dropped the rudder-lines, directed the rower to take the backwater. The creeping tide of light gained and gained, and now they could see the colour of the flowers that gemmed the water's edge. "Clearer and nearer still," cried the Rat joyously. "Now you must surely hear it! Ah! At last !I see you do!" Breathless and transfixed the Mole stopped rowing as the liquid run of that glad piping broke on him like a wave, caught him up, and possessed him utterly. He saw the tears on his comrade's cheeks, and bowed his head and understood. For a space they hung there, brushed by the purple loosestrife that fringed the bank; then the clear imperious summons that marched hand-in-hand with the intoxicating melody imposed its will on Mole, and mechanically he bent to his oars again. And the light grew steadily stronger, but no birds sang as they were wont to do at the approach of dawn; and but for the heavenly music all was marvellouslv still. '

If Lady Joyce passes this way, that is especially for you. Do they find the baby otter ? Read the book. Have we heard the 'sound' of the Vedas? I think so.

Ken Knight



========================================================== Message 23179 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight <[email protected]> Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:48 am Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

--- Sunder Hattangadi <[email protected]> wrote: > A couple of comments on the above > paragraph: The > word 'speculated' seems to be an intellectual > simplification to > describe the ' mantra-drashta's ' (seer) utterance.

Namaste Sunder-ji,

Many apologies for this error, I had slipped into academic speak in which 'intellectual simplification' is the only acceptable PC means of communication. Also, I should not have been so specific in mentioning the rishi's. What I was trying to present was a section building upon the earlier 'power and the glory' posting, and suggesting that this immense leap in human consciousness to internalise the immense power perceived to be driving the 'emanation', would lead to a general enquiry for all humanity. This should be the same for us while we cannot claim to be rishis. > > The word 'muni' (silent ascetic) occurs > in Rigveda in: > 10:136, 7:56:8,, 8:17:14 -

I have had a look at these hymns (By the way, how do you search and find such words. I downloaded the complete Rgveda in Devanagari, transliteration and English and then use 'find' in Edit. Have you any other method? I certainly found no more examples than those you posted.)

Do you think that you can define 'muni' as silent ascetic from these references or do you think that this is a later meaning? In the two hymns from the earlier collection a fair amount of interpretation has to be made to get at that definition. The later one from Book X could give such an interpretation but with no back up reference to mouna/mauna somewhere in the Rgveda I am not so sure. In VIII.17 we have the praise of Indra as the pillar, the unmoving tower of strength towards which the wise,



discriminating, firm munis approach in friendship. But I do not see in this the idea that such close companionship is the ultimate silence as 'taught' by Dakshinamurti. Could be but.... What can be noted clearly is again the acknowledgement here of immense power that will release the cows from the cave, or inspiration from the cave of the heart. I keep using this imagery because that has been my experience, an experience of an immense sound suddenly released from within 'me'while sounding Sanskrit vowels.

In VII.4,8 then it is this power in the form of the Maruts, released from their mother's womb by the lightning bolt of Indra, Not keen on Griffith's translation here. Here again, the muni is one who has been inspired by the immense power, in this case the forceful winds of the Maruts.

This connection with the Maruts is confirmed by the later hymn which you quoted at length. The Muni is able to move freely in the subtle realm, with insight understanding those mysteries that are hidden to those engrossed in physical names and forms, and he is driven, powered by the forces let loose by Indra. Here are the relevant Rks. VIII.17.14 vaástoS pate dhruvaá sthuúNaáMsatraM somyaánaam | drapsó bhettaá puraáM sháshvatiinaam índro múniinaaM sákhaa ||

'Strong pillar thou, Lord of the home, armour of Soma-offerers: The drop of Soma breaketh all the strongholds down, and Indra is the Rsis' Friend' VII.56.4 etaáni dhiíro niNyaá ciketa pR'shnir yád uúdho mahií jabhaára || ' A sage was he who knew these mysteries, what in her udder mighty Prsni (mother of maruts) bore. ' VII.56.8 shubhró vaH shúSmaH krúdhmii mánaaMsi dhúnir múnir iva shárdhasya dhRSNóH ||

'Bright is your spirit, wrathful are your minds: your bold troop's minstrel is like one inspired.'

If anyone else comes by this posting and wonders about the Maruts:

'The Maruts were minor storm deities who in Vedic times were the sons of Rudra and the attendants of Indra. There number is variously given as two,



twenty-seven, or sixty. They were aggressive and violent in character. They were the drivers of the clouds, the bringers of wind, the fellers of trees, and the crushers of mountains. They sometimes accompanied Indra into battle, and attended him at his court. In the Ramayana the story is told of their birth. Their mother, the goddess Diti, wanted to give birth to a son who would rival Indra in power, so she planned to remain pregnant for an entire century to accomplish this. Indra learned of this and was worried about it. To upset her plan, he hurled his thunderbolt at her womb while she was still pregnant, shattering it. The Maruts were born from the single, splintered fetus. '

> It occurs in Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya > upan. also. > > When ONLY the ONE exists, silence would > seem to be a natural > conclusion; who will hear what? (Brihad. 4:5:15; > Kena 1:5 & 8). > > When silence (mounam) as the highest form > of spiritual > initiation has been affirmed from Dakshinamurty to > Shankara to > Ramana, it may only mean that the extant parts of > Rigveda has no > reference to it (as we understand it). >Your thoughts on this aspect would be very > welcome.

Certainly I understand this. Also, I am sure that the Rishi's only spoke, devised the mantras, in order to teach. But having spoken, people became too attached to the rituals and the upanishads had to restore the inner meaning so they moved towards and emphasised the unmoving, the nirguna brahman. Now this leads us to my problem with mAyA as it was being taught to me by pseudo-advaitin schools in the UK. But I must not proceed too quickly on that one. It is better that I look back to the excellent discussion we had on this site in April on purna. That silence is not an emptiness as some would prefer but a roaring fullness, a pregnant presence in a single drop of water or an ocean.

But those are only some first thoughts. Maybe after



dog-walking in England's Chennai-like heat today I will have some inspiration. More likely I will need your further explanation,

Ken Knight ============================================================ Message 23180 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]> Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 8:10 am Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

our most beloved ken-knightji makes a stunning observation...

" That silence is not an emptiness as some would prefer but a roaring fullness, a pregnant presence in a single drop of water or an ocean."

YES! how do we define 'silence' in the realm of spirituality?

Is it

The silence of speech ? The silence of senses ? The silence of violent restraint ? The silence of false ego or deluded mind ?

on another note,

In the manu smriti, it is said ...

"maunat satyam visisyate"

"Truth is superior to silence"

The sanskrit word for silence is Mauna derived from the word "Muni" - one has undertaken the vow of silence.

Rg-veda hymn X, 136:

"The munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow hue. They, following the winds swift course, go where the gods have gone before."

This indeed is an intriguing subject.

From Sound comes Speech and from speech comes Silence!!!!

AM I MAKING ANY SENSE AT ALL?

later , i will post the Hymn to Vak ?(the wisdom of the word) from rg



veda.

love and regards ======================================================1Message 23181 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2 Msg #3From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>4Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 8:29 am5Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

6From the Rg Veda, The rishi, the sage through whom this revelation7is made, to whom this hymn is revealed is a woman. The name of the8great master through whom this hymn was revealed is not known. All it9says is that the rishi, the master, the revealer of this hymn is10known as Vak (pronounced vaak), meaning "The Divine Speech.

11Her Sacred Formless Form

12I who am one with the totality of existence, consciousness, and bliss

13I wander with all the Gods of the earth, sky, and heaven.

14I am the Sustainer of the Lords of the Sun, the Seas, the Thunder and

15Fire (Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Agni).

16I am the Sustainer of Soma, the ever-flowing mystic Water of the17Universe

18that streams through space.

19I am the One who bears fruit for all who seek Divine Love.

20I am the One who offers Grace to those who sacrifice

21and honor the Divine Beings.

22I am the Lady ruling the whole Universe.

23I am the One who brings wealth of joy to my worshippers.

24I am the dominant One among those who are united with

25the Divine Reality.

26In all these various forms I have manifested only Myself, I have27entered

28all the elements of the Universe.



29It is I to whom all the deities give service.

30Whoever consumes Food does so only by my Grace and Power.

31Whoever sees, breathes, hears, utters a cry, receives these

32experiences through my Divine aid.

33Those, who do not know Me in this Power, in this Glory, through their

34ignorance, they fall very low in the levels of existence.

35Therefore, oh learned beings, I teach you this Essential

36Knowledge, which can be gained only through deep faith in Me.

37I shall teach you this Essence of Reality which is followed both by

38human beings and by the gods.

39Whomsoever I wish to protect, him I protect and make powerful with

40my Grace.

41For he attains the Unity with the Creator and finds the Knowledge that

42is hidden from beyond one's eyes.

43I am the Creator of all the Spaces that are the progenitors of this44earth.

45In the Ocean from which all the beings are born and in all the Waters

46of the mind,

47It is because of Me that the Unity of the spiritual force flows.

48It is I, who fill this whole Universe, touching even the highest49heaven

50with my Body.

51When I, the First Cause of the Universe, begin to create

52without any other source impelling me,

53like a self-propelled wind,

54I move forward by my own Volition.

55For, I am beyond both earth and heaven.

56Oh, indeed such is my Glory.



57This is the most ancient statement of the divinity of an incarnate58being in the literature of the world spoken by a woman.

59Enjoy the hymn of Divine speech!

60Message 23182 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 61 Msg #62From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>63Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 9:20 am64Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

65--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:66>

67> > The word 'muni' (silent ascetic) occurs68> > in Rigveda in:69> > 10:136, 7:56:8,, 8:17:14 -70>71> I have had a look at these hymns (By the way, how do72> you search and find such words. I downloaded the73> complete Rgveda in Devanagari, transliteration and74> English and then use 'find' in Edit. Have you any75> other method? I certainly found no more examples than76> those you posted.)77>78> Do you think that you can define 'muni' as silent79> ascetic from these references or do you think that80> this is a later meaning?

81Namaste Ken-ji,

82Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance is available online:

83http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/VedicConcordance/ReadmeEng.h84tml

85In the context of 'eternalness' of Vedic mantras, one has to86wonder if a historical view of 'earlier and later' meanings would be87a valid distinction.

88Regards,

89Sunder

90[P.S. Please do not worry about 'tardiness' in replying. You may91certainly keep questions in 'storage' for a later response, if the92question and response would likely cause a 'detour' in your planned



93presentations. Chandogya upan. 7:1-26, Sanatkumara's instructions to94Narada, gives an idea of how many such detours can occur!]

95Message 23183 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 96 Msg #97From: ken knight <[email protected]>98Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:35 am99Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

100--- Benjamin <[email protected]> wrote:101>102> Namaste Ben-ji

103As always you are able to give us thoughtful104consideration of what has been presented. Each of your105comments requires further comment but I have taken up106only one. One becomes many indeed!!.107>108> Perhaps109> chanting mantras can110> be seen as an intermediary stage between the overtly111> phenomenal112> rituals of 'ordinary' religion and the inexpressible113> insights of the114> Vedanta. Sound has a more tenuous and transcendent115> nature than116> ritual, being invisible and evocative.

117I do not know enough about 'mantra' to speak118authoritatively but in the context of this June topic119here are a few points.120Mantra has power and the source of that power in the121truth and order (satyam/Rtam) that stands as a pillar122at the very centre of the Rgvedic universe. This pure123power is observed 'in the heart' of the rishi and124encapsulated in the mantra and then is released upon125the correct utterance.126I see this as the first step. Rituals form around that127mantra. Then comes interpretation and explanation128which superimpose error on the original meaning. This129is why the oral tradition has to be so designed to130protect the mantra...or rather protect the users of131the mantra from impurity. We could look at a number132of relevant hymns but I do not want to take up too133much cyber-space for what is essentially another134single topic for discussion. The philosophical135interpretations of the Upanishads etc. are already136contained in the original sound of the mantra for137those with ears to hear and eyes to see. I do not see138them as an evolutionary step in superiority.139Big topic this one. There is an American, Ellison



140Banks Findly, who has written an excellent essay on141the Rgvedic aspect of mantra in 'Mantra', ed. Harvey142Alper SUNY PRESS 1989.

143I have previously mentioned the writing of Dr144Ramachandra Rao and am posting some of his words below145on this topic.

146'Mantras147Rao148The Vedic mantras are not couched in common language.149The Vedic language, especially in the RgVeda, is meant150to embody thoughts lofty and profound born directly151out of deep concentration or tapas. The words found152their forms simultaneously with the thoughts; the153Sabda (sound) and artha ( meaning) were coeval and154formed one mass…….155Its (archaic Sanskrit) chief aim was self-expression.156But there is a definite mystery about it, because the157seers were seeking to express in a pattern of words158what was in reality beyond words. And the pattern of159words which they employed (viz, the metrical form or160chhandas) becomes important for this very reason.161Hence the alternative expression 'Chhandas' for the162Veda. This is also why the rnantra is not easily163intelligible, unless one strives to delve deep into164the inner meaning, hidden in the exterior sound. The165mantra is said to be well-chiselled in the heart166(Rgveda. 2,35,2 hrda su-tashtam mantram'): it provides167an insight 'into the hidden truth beyond the words and168other expressions' (ibid. 10,85,16 'yad guha tad169addhatava id viduh'). Satapatha-brahmana (10,3,5,13)170speaks of mantra as knowledge of the hidden truth171(addha-vidva). the truth that settles all doubts (cf.172Chhandogyaupanishad, 3, 14,4 'addhâ na vichikitsastii,173and affords certainty to ones knowledge (cf. Rgvcda,1743, 54, 11; 10, III, 7 and 10, 129, 6 'addha veda').175The mantra thus embodies a vision of cosmic order or176truth that manifests itself everywhere and at all177times (Rgveda 9,76.4). Rta, the universal, eternal and178immutable law is in fact the reality. The Vedic poet179saw it operating everywhere, in sun, moon, mountain,180tree, man, beast and rain, wind and bird; and he181firmly believed in it not only as the natural order182but as moral law. It was the source of plenty; and it183destroys sins (Rgveda, 4. 23.8-10); it is how184Providence manifests itself (8. 100, 34, and 4, 40.1855). There is no truth apart from this (MahAnArayanIya.1861,6). It shines forth as all powers and qualities, as187beauty (Sri), glory (bharga), splendour (mahas),188brilliance (varchas). power (ojas), intelligence189(dhIh), valour (sAhasa), light (jyoti), and life190(jiva). The poet also recognized the supremacy of Rta



191in his own life. Human life, like anything else in the192world, is guided by Rta. …….193Such being the importance of the mantra. there must be194a concern to render it most effective, and this is195done by prefacing the mantra with the triad (trika) as196mentioned above( name of seer, metrical form of the197mantra and name of the deity being invoked). When the198triad is specifically mentioned, it indicates that199what follows is a mantra; and that it is not a formal200or ordinary communication. It is not the utterance of201the three details (rshi, chhandas and devata) that is202as important as the knowledge and calling to mind of203these details (anusmarana). That is why Prapahcha-sAra204and Rudra-kalpa-druma say that all three must be borne205in the heart ('hRdi pratishthA) for mantra to become206significant and effective.

207> That is why I say208> that the Vedas do not want us to genuflect to them209> but rather to210> absorb their spirit, wherever that may lead...211>

212And from my earlier posting today:213'Breathless and transfixed the Mole stopped rowing as214the liquid run of that glad piping broke on him like a215wave, caught him up, and possessed him utterly. He saw216the tears on his comrade's cheeks, and bowed his head217and understood. For a space they hung there, brushed218by the purple loosestrife that fringed the bank; then219the clear imperious summons that marched hand-in-hand220with the intoxicating melody imposed its will on Mole,221and mechanically he bent to his oars again. And the222light grew steadily stronger, but no birds sang as223they were wont to do at the approach of dawn; and but224for the heavenly music all was marvellouslv still. '

225Sorry this is so long but these are important matters

226ken227Message 23184 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 228 Msg #229From: Raghavarao Kaluri <[email protected]>230Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 1:04 pm231Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

232Namaste all.



233In the context of 'harmony of sound' and 'silence', a234previous relevant post is referred:235http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/message/15528

236It is interesting to note that 'When the Word was with237God' ... what was it ? Probably 'silence' ...

238With Love,239Raghava

240Message 23186 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 241 Msg #242From: ken knight <[email protected]>243Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:52 pm244Subject: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many: for Raghavarao

245--- Raghavarao Kaluri <[email protected]> wrote:246> Namaste all.247>248> In the context of 'harmony of sound' and 'silence',249> a250> previous relevant post is referred:251> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/message/15528252>253> It is interesting to note that 'When the Word was254> with255> God' ... what was it ? Probably 'silence' ...

256Namaste Raghava,257You sound like an etymologist after my own style; if258it works for you at a particular time then it is259right.260I am afraid that etymologically Word comes from the261IDG root WER meaning to speak.262OK. Let us take a step into 'speak' and speech. You263will find a relationship given with the word spark.264Now that is getting interesting. Is Agni creeping in265here? Now this is related to the IDG root SPERK or266SPREK which comes from the Sanskrit root sphUrj, to267burst forth or be displayed. Now this is VERY268interesting. We are now in sphota country and269Bhartrihari and the four levels of speech. We must270put that one on hold for the moment.271In the John prologue, what is very amazing is that272no-one takes any notice of the next verse:273'The same was in the beginning with God.' He has274already repeated himself three times, why do so again?275What new element is he putting forward? The clue is in276the word 'same'; see Sanskrit root Sam.

277If you take a look at 'adi-shakti's'...OK. I know his



278real name but am not telling.... post of today you279will find that he quotes a great RgVedic hymn of vAk.280It is a very difficult one to translate so have a look281around the net for other translations. This is closer282to the Greek 'Logos' which has been translated as283Word. Interesting to look at but my own conclusion is284that vAk and logos contain different ideas. Millions285of books and essays on all this for you to explore.

286Happy studies

287ken Knight288Message 23188 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 289 Msg #290From: [email protected]: Wed Jun 9, 2004 12:30 am292Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

293Namaste,294Adi Shakthi wrote:

295In the manu smriti, it is said ...296"maunat satyam visisyate"297"Truth is superior to silence"

298The sanskrit word for silence is Mauna derived from the word "Muni" -299one has undertaken the vow of silence.

300Rg-veda hymn X, 136:

301"The munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow302hue. They, following the winds swift course, go where the gods have303gone before."304This indeed is an intriguing subject.305From Sound comes Speech and from speech comes Silence!!!!306AM I MAKING ANY SENSE AT ALL?307-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

308Yes, it makes an intuitive sense.309This brings to mind what the American poet Ezra Pound said of his poems:310"These words were written by a man believing in silence who could not withhold311himself from speaking." Pound was well aware that poetry was a spoken (or sung)312art; his major long works are called "Cantos." In a way, Pound indicates that313the poet follows this 'virtuous cycle,' as it were; from sound comes speech;314from speech comes silence; and from silence comes the truth, which the poet315allows to pass cleanly through himself. This intuitive process perhaps316resembles that that of the creation as well as that way in which Vedas were317heard and revealed by the rishis.318Does this, in turn, make any sense?

319Warm regards,



320Kenneth321Message 23189 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 322 Msg #323From: "Chittaranjan Naik" <[email protected]>324Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 1:50 am325Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many: for Raghavarao

326Select A Loan327 Refinance328 Buy a Home329 Home Improvement330 Home Equity Loan331 Debt Consolidation Loan332 333Namaste Kenji,

334--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:

335> 'The same was in the beginning with God.' He has336> already repeated himself three times, why do so again?337> What new element is he putting forward? The clue is in338> the word 'same'; see Sanskrit root Sam.

339I wonder how 'same' relates to 'saman' or 'samanya'. I find it340interesting that the denotation of a word in Advaita is its samanya.341It is also interesting that Plato's ideal forms tend to samanya.

342Regards,343Chittaranjan

344Message 23190 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 345 Msg #346From: ken knight <[email protected]>347Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 2:45 am348Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many (kenneth)

349--- [email protected] wrote:

350>351> Yes, it makes an intuitive sense.352> This brings to mind what the American poet Ezra353>In a way, Pound indicates that the354> poet follows this 'virtuous cycle,' as it were;355> from sound comes speech; from speech comes silence;356> and from silence comes the truth, which the poet357> allows to pass cleanly through himself. This358> intuitive process perhaps resembles that that of the359> creation as well as that way in which Vedas were360> heard and revealed by the rishis.361> Does this, in turn, make any sense?



362>363Good Morning Kenneth,364Not only sense, this is knowledge. It is why the Vedas365are Chhandas from which we get the English 'chant'.366I have said this in another posting but maybe it367should be repeated here: In order for the mantra to368have full effect a triad of 'names' are pronounced:369the name of the Rshi, the name of the deity and the370name of the chant which establishes the order. This371draws, focusses these powers into the word-act.372These Chhandas, metres, count the number of syllables373and 'games' are played with their order. If you know374the music of Bach then you will find in it the play of375the Chhandas.376The most famous of these is the gAyatrI. In this case377the stanza usually consists of 24 syllables, variously378arranged, but usually as a triplet of 3 pAdas of 8379syllables each, or in one line of 16 syllables and a380second of 8 syllables.381There are 11 varieties of this metre and the number of382syllables varies accordingly from 19 to 33.

383That, of course, is just information, but it helps to384unpick the mantras when the metre is known although385the real understanding of a mantra is in its wholeness386which can only he heard and not analysed.

387Which takes us back to your own observation.388Really words should have a built-in suicide gene. Once389their knowledge has been revealed they should390disappear, bit like the 'creation/emanation' really.391For example, I used this little imaginary tale392recently:393'Imagine that at the station of our departure there is394a man trying to engage others in conversation.395"Do you know the word upAsana?" he asks one traveller.396"No," is the forceful reply as the traveller rushes397by, "and I have no time to find out."398So he repeats the question to another who is standing399quietly by the platform.400"Yes," is the immediate answer. "It comes from upa401meaning near and Asana (root as) which means a402posture. So it may be understood as 'sitting near',403for example. Some also say that it means meditation."404"Thank you," says our questioner. "What are you405sitting near in meditation?"406"You do not understand," the other commands. "The407'sitting near' does not mean sitting near anything. It408only indicates that I am sitting near myself, atman,409or that through the intention to meditate I am410approaching that atman. However as atman is the411universal self, brahman, in reality there is no412separation and no sitting near. Proximity has no place



413in omnipresence. So I ask you in return, what do you414think it means to say that you are sitting near415oneself?"416"I see that you are presenting a non-dual teaching.417And so you will understand my silence if I fail to418reply."

419This went on a bit more but you get the gist of it.

420I will soon post some stuff on YAska and the fruition421of language in the Rgveda and I look forward to your422comments on that,

423Ken Knight424 425 426 Message 23191 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 427 Msg #428From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>429Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 5:06 am430Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: -Song to Holy Wisdom !

431Ken-knightji comments ...

432" If you take a look at 'adi-shakti's'...OK. I know his433real name but am not telling.... post of today you434will find that he quotes a great RgVedic hymn of vAk. "

435Dear-heart, adi_ shakthi16 is a fe-male and her real name is no big436secret - it is no revelation!!! smiles !!! what is in a name, anyway?437A Rose is a Rose is a Rose ...

438on another note, kenneth-ji, it is my pleasure to bring to this439audience here the hymn to the sacred word , known as a song to the440holy wisdom, with an address to Brhaspati, "the lord of the holy441word" , the inspiirer of sacred poetry.

4421. O Lord of the Holy Word! That was the first beginning of the Word443when the Seers fell to naming each object. That which was best anmd444purest, deeply hidden within their hearts, they revealed by the power445of their love.

4462. The Seers fashioned the Word by the means of their mind sifting it447as with sieves the corn is sifted. Thus friends may recognize each448other's friendship. An auspicious seal upon their word is set.

4493. They followed by sacrifice the path of the Word and found her450entered among the Seers. They led her forth and distributed her among451many . In unison the seven Singers chant her.



4524.*** Yet certain ones, though seeing, may not see her., and other453ones, though hearing, may not hear her. But to some the Word reveals454herself quite freely, like fair-robed bride surrendering to her455husband.***

4565. One man they call morose, unbending in friendship, him they do457not send forward to competitions. He goes on his way deluded, his458endeavours sterile. Void both of fruit and flowers was the word he459heard.

4606. No longer does the man who has abandoned a congenial friend461possess a share in the Word. *Vain is his hearing, whatsoever he462hears. He does not recognize the path of goodness.*

4637. Friends, though endowed alike with sight and hearing , may yet in464quickness of mind be quite unequal. Some are like ponds that reach to465mouth or shoulder , while others resemble lakes deep enough for466bathing.

4678. When Brahmins sacrifice together in friendship, forming within468their hearts inspirations of their spirit, their wise resolves may469leave one man behind, while others, though reckoned as Brahmins,470stray away.

4719. Those who advance not in this direction or that, who are not472knowers of Brahman or Soma-prsessers, they have obtained the word in473sinful fashion. Being ignorant, they weave a faulty thread.

47410. His comrades all rejoice when their friend returns covered with475glory , proclaimed victor in the assembly. He frees them from their476sin, provides them with food. Prepared is he, fit for the compeition.

47711. One man with utmost care creates the verses, another sings a song478in chanted meters. A third, the Brahmin tells forth the wisdom of479being.

480RG VEDA X, 71

481folks ! look at verse 4 in relation to verse 3. beautiful metaphor482indeed! The communication of the Word is like the *union* of man and483woman , for the word comes and offers herself as a bride to her484husband , to the one who is worthy to receive her. (something that485kenji has been stressing over and over again) The communicator , the486communication .... and no gaps in between!

487The word UNITES ; The Word Divides !

488A word is sacxred and powerful . Shabda is Sound; Sphota is eternal489sound.

490THUS THE WORD HAS BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT ! IT REVEALS AND IT CONCELAS!



491satyameva jayate! (truth triumphs!)

492courtesy

493http://www.adishakti.org/pdf_files/shruti%28vedic_experience%29.pdf

494enjoy the beauty and splendor of rg vedic vaks!495Message 23192 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 496 Msg #497From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>498Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 6:11 am499Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: vac is revelation !

500Thank you Kenneth-ji !

501first , for that wonderful quotation from Ezra Pound.

502Your post not only makes sense but is full of wisdom.

503As you may be aware, Veda is derived from the root word 'vid' which504means 'to know' . So, veda means 'knowledge' . Vak means the 'word'505and in my language Tamizh, there is a phrase called 'veda vak' - for506example , to me whatever my guru says is 'veda vak' that is whatever507my guru says requires my implicit obedience because it is as sacred508as the word from the vedas ( veda vak) !

509And VAC is very sacred and powerful.

510In the path of Knowledge ,( Jnana marga ) Guru's Upadesha (spiritual511instructions) becomes the sacred 'vac'

512in the path of devotion (bhakti marga), Vak takes the form of nama-513japa or prayer re, repeating the names of God to reach the lotus feet514of the Divine.

515so, indeed , kenneth-ji - you are absolutely right when you say

516"This intuitive process perhaps resembles that that of the creation517as well as that way in which Vedas were heard and revealed by the518rishis."

519YES ! and indeed a big YES!

520"The vedic Vak does not contain revelation. She is revelation.She was521at the beginning. She is the whole of the Shruti. The shruti is522Vak. " ( raimon panikkar)

523and note how Vak (word) is being referred to as 'she' (feminine



524gender) and later on when the time is right, i will post the Devi525Sukta , a powerful hymn from the Rig veda , where the Vak is revered526as the Queen . " i am the ruling Queen, the amasser of treasures,527full of wisdom, first of those worthy of worship. In various places,528the divine powers have set me. I enter many homes and take numerous529forms."

530thank you , once again for all your wonderful posts.

531Aum Iti!

532Message 23194 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 533 Msg #534From: ken knight <[email protected]>535Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 6:50 am536Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: -Song to Holy Wisdom !

537--- adi_shakthi16 <[email protected]> wrote:538>539> Dear-heart, adi_ shakthi16 is a fe-male and her real540> name is no big541> secret - it is no revelation!!! smiles !!! what is542> in a name, anyway?543> A Rose is a Rose is a Rose ...

544AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAghhhh

545All this time I have been discoursing with a lady and546I did not know it.547The feminine, the power of the powerful without which548the powerful is powerless, Shakti, consort of Shiva, I549prostrate and plead stupidity as the reason for my550error.

551Now I know that you in your limited form behind552adi-shakthi16 like a little Sufism so may I offer some553Rabi'a, the great lady Sufi poet, who one beautiful,554sunny day was beckoned by her maid to go into the555garden.556'Rabi'a, come into the garden to enjoy what the557Creator has made.'558From inside the house Rabi'a replied:559'Come inside and meet the Creator.'

560Or my favourite of all is her prayer:561'O God! If I worship Thee in fear of hell, burn me in562hell; and if I worship Thee in hope of paradise,563exclude me from paradise; but if I worship Thee for564Thine own sake, withhold not Thine Everlasting565Beauty.'

566So great lady, you have directed us to RV.X.71.4:



567'One man hath ne'er seen Vak, and yet he seeth: one568man hath hearing but hath never heard her.569But to another hath she shown her beauty as a fond570well-dressed woman to her husband.'

571This verse is crucial to our journey with YAska which572will begin with a posting tonight. When I first met573this 'metaphor' in the Upanishads I wondered where574such imagery had come from. Then came the study of vAk575and all was revealed.

576In recent times there been a re-awakening to the577intuitive, feminine, aspect of mind. ( I do not mean578the superficial pyscho-babble emanating from some579universities). South Asian traditions have always had580this as central. Father Bede Griffiths, a Benedictine581monk, spent the second half of his life in India where582he encountered theo-philosophies that expanded his583patristic Christian modes of thought. He had a584profound experience of The Holy Mother and was able to585write of the need for an inner meeting of the male and586female:587'......This meeting must take place at the deepest588level of the human consciousness. It is an encounter589ultimately between the two fundamental dimensions of590human nature: the male and the female – the masculine,591rational, active, dominating power of the mind, and592the feminine, intuitive, passive and receptive power.593Of course, these two dimensions exist in every human594being and in every people and race. But for the past595two thousand years, coming to a climax in the present596century, the masculine, rational mind has gradually597come to dominate Western Europe and has now spread its598influence all over the world.'599I don't necessarily agree with some of the qualities600he gives as masculine and feminine.

601To make futher amends I am posting below a list of the602female Rshis(RshikA) and the references for their Rks.603Some people may not be aware that there are/were many604RshikA:605GhoshA (Kakshivati, Rgveda 10, 39), Sraddhã (KAmAyanI,60610, 151), SikatA (NivAvarI, 9, 86), Agastya-svasãA607(10. 60), SArpa rAjñI (10, 189), IndrasnushA608(Vasukra-patniI 10, 28), GodhA (10, 134), Nadi (3,60933), LopAmudrA (1, 179), ViSvavArA (AtreyI , 5, 28),610VAk (AmbhranI, 10, 125), YamI (VaivasvatI, 10, 10),611SASvatI (AngirasI, 8, 1), SaramA (DevaSunI, 10, 108),612SUryA (SAvitri, 10, 85). SachI (PulomI, 10, 159), JuhU613(Brahma-jAyA, 10, 109), DakshinA (PrajApatyA 10, 107),614Aditi (DAkshAyanI, 10, 72), RAtri (Bharadvaji, 10,615127), RomaSA (Brahma-vAdiinI, 1, 126 and 1 27) and616ApalA (8, 7)



617Best wishes618If I have been admonished619Kenneth Knight620otherwise I am still Ken Knight

621Message 23195 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 622 Msg #623From: ken knight <[email protected]>624Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 11:50 am625Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

626--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:627>And when628> such an identification takes place there is no more629> Varuna or Indra630> or Ganga – there is only brahman. It is only that631> state which is632> the state of perfection and purity. This is why633> every sUkta that is634> intended for purification, though appealing to635> `lesser' devatas,636> finally esoterically has to point out and reiterate637> the fact638> that `All this is brahman'. The universal heart/mind639> has to be640> touched and as Ken-ji says, this is the purpose of641> all tapas, yajna642> and ritual. And that is why, though I have been643> reciting the644> nAsadIya-sUkta from my boyhood as if it were just a645> routine portion646> of the udaka-shAnti mantra, it is clear now that it647> had to be there;648> for without it there can be no `meeting of the649> individual with the650> universal, vyashti with samashti'!

651Namaste Professor,652Sorry to have delayed my reply. You have responded so653well to my appeal at the beginning of this topic for654those with practical experience to help me out. So655many, many thanks.656No doubt all births are lawful, each of us in the657right place, but how much I yearn to have had one such658as yours where the Vedas were there to be learned by659heart. Although I am sure that you also wished to be660elsewhere at times.661One of the founder members of this group, Madhava662Turumella, has met up with me a couple of times



663recently and whenever I mention to him some translated664Sloka he rattles off the Sanskrit learned in his665youth. All I learned was about Jack and Jill going up666some hill, and it takes me ages to learn a single667stanza in Sanskrit. Come to think of it, a lot of the668mantras translate into sentences that seem to have as669much meaning as Jack and Jill going up their hill.670I began this topic also by honouring and naming Sri671Anandamayi Ma and Dr Gopinath Kaviraj. If any672understanding shines through these postings it is673through their presence. As the rishi and devataH are674invoked at the beginning of the hymn so these two675wonderful people were invoked at the beginning of this676topic. Clearly their influence is coming to our aid677because your last posting, as well as other members'678postings of the last two days, prepares the way for my679next one. Always a good sign when this happens during680discussions.681I had intended replying to your post step by step but682found it had already been written in the YAska posting683which I will put out tonight.

684However, to return to the individual dissolving in the685universal: RV.I.164. Here is the basic question for686all of us:

6876 ácikitvaañ cikitúSash cid átra kaviín pRchaami688vidmáne ná vidvaán |689ví yás tastámbha SáL imaá rájaaMsy ajásya ruupé kím690ápi svid ékam ||

691'I ask, unknowing, those who know, the sages, as one692all ignorant for sake of knowledge,693What was that ONE who in the Unborn's image hath694stablished and fixed firm these worlds' six regions.'

695It is this question that leads into the famous 'two696birds in a tree' image so beloved of Vedantins.

697To approach any event thinking that we know what is698going on is fraught with danger and first we699acknowledge that we are not actually in charge of700things.

701dyaúr me pitaá janitaá naábhir átra bándhur me maataá702pRthivií mahiíyám |703uttaanáyosh camvòr yónir antár átraa pitaá duhitúr704gárbham aádhaat ||

705'Dyaus is my Father, my begetter: kinship is here.706This great earth is my kin and Mother.707Between the wide-spread world-halves is the



708birth-place: the Father laid the Daughter's germ709within it.'

710Next the rishi asks these great questions.

711pRchaámi tvaa páram ántam pRthivyaáH pRchaámi yátra712bhúvanasya naábhiH |713pRchaámi tvaa vR'SNo áshvasya rétaH pRchaámi vaacáH714paramáM vyòma ||

715' I ask thee of the earth's extremest limit, where is716the centre of the world, I ask717thee.718I ask thee of the Stallion's seed prolific, I ask of719highest heaven where Speech abideth.'

720The answers he gets are a great teaching. I am sure721that they must be central to all that you were given722in your childhood.

723iyáM védiH páro ántaH pRthivyaá ayáM yajñó bhúvanasya724naábhiH |725ayáM sómo vR'SNo áshvasya réto brahmaáyáM vaacáH726paramáM vyòma ||

727'This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this728sacrifice of ours is the world's centre.729The Stallion's seed prolific is the Soma; this Brahman730highest heaven where Speech abideth.'

731Sorry. The above is all rather disjointed but my son,732now less than 24 hours away from emigrating, suddenly733wants more conversation than he has had with me for734the past year. Hence telephone interruptions while735typing,

736Thank you for your valuable contributions,

737Ken Knight738Message 23196 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 739 Msg #740From: "Lady Joyce" <[email protected]>741Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 2:28 pm742Subject: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

743Kenji wrote...



744> The nasadIya sUkta sings through all generations.

745> "It's gone!" sighed the Rat, sinking back in his seat746> again. "So beautiful and strange and new! Since it was747> to end so soon, I almost wish I had never heard it.748> For it has mused a longing in me that is pain, and749> nothing seems worth while but just to hear that sound750> once more and go on listening to it for ever."751>752> "No! There it is again!" he cried, alert once more.753> Entranced, he was silent for a long space, spellbound.754> "Now it passes on, and I begin to lose it," he said755> presently. "O, Mole! the beauty of it! The merry756> bubble and joy, the thin, clear, happy call of the757> distant piping. Such music I never dreamed of, and the758> call in it is stronger even than the music is sweet!759> Row on, Mole, row! For the music and the call must be760> for us."761> If Lady Joyce passes this way, that is especially for762> you.763> Do they find the baby otter ?

764May he be found and possessed765such that he is eternally766lost in the call

767Especially for you...

768http://www.omshaantih.com/Poetry/Rumi/Be%20Lost/1.htm

769Love,

770Joyce

771Message 23197 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 772 Msg #773From: ken knight <[email protected]>774Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 5:48 pm775Subject: Re: [advaitin] June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/LadyJ

776--- Lady Joyce <[email protected]> wrote:777> May he be found and possessed778> such that he is eternally779> lost in the call780>781> Especially for you...782>783>784http://www.omshaantih.com/Poetry/Rumi/Be%20Lost/1.htm



785Good Evening Joyce,786Reality's statement in the Rumi poem at this URL is787based on a hadith...these are mystical sayings or788stories that are not included in the Koran and whose789validity is challenged by some.....'I was a hidden790treasure and wanted to be known so created creation in791order to be known.' The English of that is pathetic792but gives you the sense of the hadith. The Arabic793used for the word 'known' has to do with taste, as in794tasting the sweetness, madhur and svadh in the795Sanskrit. Both of which are to be noted in RV I.164 in796the tale of the two birds.

797Back to Rat and Mole. Yes indeed, the baby otter had798to be lost in order to be found. having been guided by799the sweet sound the animals found themsleves in the800Presence of .....801As Dawn, Usha in the Rgvedic hymns, lit up the scene:802'Sudden and magnificent, the Sun's broad golden disc803showed itself over the horizon facing them; and the804first rays, shooting across level water-meadows, took805the animals full in the eyes and dazzled them. When806they were able to look once more, the Vision had807vanished and the air was full of the the carol of808birds that hailed the dawn......'809Then the veil is drawn back over the animals' inner810vision,

811Oh well, teachings abound and we are fortunate on this812site to share them,

813Thanks again for the link,

814Ken Knight815Message 23198 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 816 Msg #817From: "Lady Joyce" <[email protected]>818Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 11:04 pm819Subject: Re: [advaitin] June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/LadyJ

820Kenji wrote...

821Yes indeed, the baby otter had to be lost in order to be found. having been822guided by823> the sweet sound the animals found themsleves in the824> Presence of .....

825Ah, but was he lost then found, or found then lost?826In the call...

827> As Dawn, Usha in the Rgvedic hymns, lit up the scene:



828> 'Sudden and magnificent, the Sun's broad golden disc829> showed itself over the horizon facing them; and the830> first rays, shooting across level water-meadows, took831> the animals full in the eyes and dazzled them. When832> they were able to look once more, the Vision had833> vanished and the air was full of the the carol of834> birds that hailed the dawn......'

835I want to share with you an image which Adiji had posted836on her group page, of Usha, along with a short poem and837Hymn CXIII (Dawn) taken from the link which Sunderji had posted...838Thanks to the One and the Many :-)

839http://www.omshaantih.com/Scriptures/Rig%20Veda/Usha/Dawn.htm

840Love,

841Joyce

842Message 23199 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 843 Msg #844From: ken knight <[email protected]>845Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:10 am846Subject: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/Vedangas and Yaska

847Namaste all,848Apologies for the length of this posting but we are849getting into matters that need some explanation for850those who have not heard of vedangas and Yaska.851All the previous postings have been setting the scene852for this one which is the major step before we enter853the mAyA sections.854I am just about to take my wife to point A before855going to point B before going to point A again and856taking us both to point C which is Heathrow airport to857say farewell to my emigrating son later this858afternoon. It is unlikely that I will be able to get859on to the computer until tomorrow as most of the day860will be spent on what is fondly known as England's861'biggest car-park': the M25. Those of you who live in862England will understand what that all means.

863Hope the following makes some sense:

864YAska, Vedangas and Understanding the Hymns

865The unavoidable understanding from this introduction866to the Rgveda is that the hymns of the saMhitA cannot867be presented without error in a written form or when868analysed in intellectual debate. In the various869postings we have encountered the tradition of870eternality of the Vedas, against which we have to



871place ides of word sound, shabda, meaning, artha,872intention, tatparya and context. Throughout the873history of South Asian philosophical debate these are874much discussed and it would help us to understand875Shankara if we had all studied the six darSanas.876Hopefully, next month's topic will help us in that877regard. For the moment we must take a further step878back towards the first attempts to understand the879Vedas as they had been collected together as we know880them today.881We have also, up to this point, considered the882possibility that the requirement for intuitive883understanding in the moment of hearing does not884prevent subsequent analysis being of significant value885as long as all 'kindling' is offered in sacrifice;886that there is purity of intention. Both intuitive887insight and rational thought are necessary events in888the exegesis of the mantras so the Vedangas, primarily889aids for the protection of the purity and accuracy of890meaning of the Vedas, evolved naturally as the891teaching and language practices were developed from892the archaic forms of Sanskrit to what we may call893classical Sanskrit.894The need for purity of language or speech, of action895and of the participants in ritual is at the centre of896such spiritual work. This awareness of the need for897purity implies that there is an underlying impulse for898the actions of a study, or ritual, an impulse that is899perfect, whole and 'pure'. At the substratum level of900this purity no fault can appear, it is only at the901level of name and form, necessary for explanation or902demonstration, that imperfections occur through error.903That substratum is central to a non-dualist teaching904and it is illustrated by the final statement of the905ISha Upanishad. This has been well covered as our906April topic:907This Upanishad emerged out of the age of the Vedic908seers through the tradition of Yajnavalkya. It is at909the core of the fundamental questioning as to 'How the910One becomes Many while remaining One.' Centred around911the statement of the seventh verse, 'seeing the same912in all', the Upanishad, through its concluding shanti913mantra, makes the definitive statement on the914resplendent, Sukram, wholeness and indivisibility of915the all-pervading substratum, paryagAt:916'When to that man of realisation, yasmin vijAnataH,917all beings become the very Self, atma eva abhUt, then918what delusion and what sorrow can there be for the919seer of oneness?'920Then follows:

921'That is perfect, purna, this is perfect. The perfect922arises from perfect. Realising the imperfect in the



923perfect, the perfect remains.' Isha Upanishad 7924(this is but one translation but I have never yet been925satisfied by any translation of this Sloka into926English.)

927The Vedangas were first numbered as six in the928SadviMSa BrAhmaNa of the SAma Veda where they are said929to be the limbs of the goddess SvAhA, consort of Agni.930In the Mundaka Upanishad, the rishi Angiras gives the931traditional teaching on the two kinds of knowledge to932be acquired, dve vidye veditavye:933'..There are two kinds of knowledge to be acquired;934the higher and the lower, this is what, as tradition935runs, the knowers of the import of the Vedas say.936Of these, the lower comprises the Rgveda, Yajurveda,937Samaveda, Atharvaveda, the science of pronunciation,938ShikshA, the code of rituals, kalpaH, grammar,939vyAkaranam, etymology, niruktam, metre, chandah and940astrology, jyotisham. Then there is the higher941knowledge by which is realised that immutable,942aksharam.943By the higher knowledge the wise realise everywhere944that which cannot be perceived or grasped; which is945without source, features, eyes, ears; which has946neither hands nor feet; which is eternal, multiformed,947all-pervasive, extremely subtle, and undiminishing;948and which is the source of all.949As a spider spreads out and withdraws (its thread), as950on earth grow the herbs (and trees), and as from the951living man issues out hair on the head and body, so952out of the Immutable does the universe emerge here (in953this phenomenol creation.).' Mundaka Up. I.1.4-7.

954Accustomed as he was to the classical Sanskrit of his955time, roughly 4th century BC , YAska needed to956penetrate the archaic Sanskrit of the Vedas. Coming in957a long line of those seeking the purity of the958original Rishi's vision, YAska was concerned with959revealing the original meaning of the Vedic mantras as960used in the rituals of his time. He chose etymology961and grammar as being the primary skills in this962process while, of course, recognising the importance963of Chhandas, metre. He also stated that it was through964the correct pronunciation of these mantras, by965suitably qualified persons, that their meaning came to966a flowering and fruition in their study and practice.967Attitudes to his work vary from dismissing it968altogether, to regarding it as no more than folk969etymology to seeing it as a most valuable, ancient970forerunner in the history of linguistics. His Nirukta971is devoted to the explanation of difficult Vedic972words. The only work of the kind now known to us is



973that of Yaska, who was a predecessor of Panini; but974such works were no doubt numerous, and the names of975seventeen writers of Niruktas are mentioned as having976preceded Yaska. The Nirukta consists of three parts977:-(1.) Naighantuka, a collection of synonymous words;978(2.) Naigama, a collection of words peculiar to the979Vedas; (3.) Daivata, words relating to deities and980sacrifices. These are mere lists of words, and are of981themselves of little value. They may have been982compiled by Yaska himself, or he may have found them983ready to his hand. The real Nirukta, the valuable984portion of the work, is Yaska's commentary, which985follows. In this he explains the meaning of words,986enters into etymological investigations, and quotes987passages of the Vedas in illustration. These are988valuable from their acknowledged antiquity, and as989being the oldest known examples of a Vedic gloss. They990also throw a light upon the scientific and religious991condition of their times, but the extreme brevity of992their style makes them obscure and difficult to993understand. But we are here to understand.994Failure to penetrate to the very heart of meaning when995sounding the mantras, or the listening to such a996recitation without understanding their meaning, in his997opinion, withers the 'flowers so that they fail to998fruit.' Through such failure the sweetest fruit at the999top of the tree cannot be directly experienced ( I1000have put that bit in as a reference to RV. I.164 and1001the image of the two birds but cannot digress too far1002into that one now.). YAska referred to that one who1003chanted the mantra without understanding as a 'wooden1004post', sthanu, and we may note that a post is the dead1005product of a tree, unable to flower and fruit.

1006'Who heard speech without fruit and flower in the1007abodes of gods and men, for that man speech has no1008fruit or flower, or has very little fruit and flower.1009The meaning of speech is called its fruit and flower.1010Or the sacrificial stanzas addressed to deities, or1011the deity and the soul are its fruit and flower.'1012Nirukta I.201013In this passage, YAska's fundamental understanding of1014the effectiveness of speech at three levels can be1015discerned: the mantras may be spoken with no1016understanding of the powers beyond the gross level,1017spoken with insightful understanding at the subtle1018level or 'spoken' in the fullness of the Atman. Hence1019he states: yAjnadaivate pushpaphale devatAdhyAtme vA.1020Durgacharya, YAska's commentator, develops this1021statement:1022'Knowledge of sacrifice is the flower, of which the1023knowledge of divine beings may be considered as the1024fruit. The knowledge of divine beings is in turn the



1025flower whose fruit is universal knowledge of the Self.1026This is what is established by the whole Veda If the1027dharma is leading to material prosperity is performed,1028the knowledge of the gods is the reward. If on the1029other hand the dharma leading to spiritual beatitude1030is practised, then both the yajnika and daivika become1031the flower; the daivika, which includes in itself the1032yajnika becomes the flower and the adhyatmika the1033fruit.' This has been quoted from 'The Heart of the1034Rigveda' Mahuli R Gopalacharya, Somaiya pub. 19711035pp.10-111036(These three levels, gross, subtle and causal as it1037were, of Adhibhautica, regarding the external world,1038Adhidaivica, regarding divine beings, and Adhyatmica,1039regarding spiritual truths, is a central teaching in1040Vedanta.1041Bhagavad Gita, Chapter Seven concludes with, 'They who1042know Me as the Adhibhuta and the Adhidaiva, as well as1043the chief of sacrifice, they truly know Me with1044steadfast thought even at the hour of death.')1045We can now try to relate this statement with the1046'power and the glory' of the posting on the context of1047the hymns' oral tradition. The acquisition of any1048speck of knowledge requires a certain sacrifice before1049the acquired skill gives meaning and authority, as any1050school pupil could observe. When the child learns to1051multiply numbers, status and awards follow, but the1052true delight to be directly experienced is not in the1053limited power and authority of that newly acquired1054status, but in the magnificent, inspired flow in the1055work itself from the first perception of the question1056to be answered, through its working and finally to a1057successful conclusion. The child will naturally1058exclaim, 'I like this.'1059The full meaning is not to be found in merely chanting1060the mathematical tables as instructed by the teacher.1061Nor is the full meaning to be found in the newly1062acquired status as 'one who can do multiplication.'1063It is found in the pure application of this acquired1064knowledge in the correct situation, in the right place1065at the right time. As a young child I would sit up in1066my bedroom, writing the longest sum in the world1067around the walls. My parents thought this neither the1068right time nor right place for such activity.1069This process of learning and final delight is an1070example, it must be stated in my opinion only, of1071YAska's yAjnadaivate pushpaphale devatAdhyAtme vA.1072The fullness of meaning comes through the mantra1073realising its own knowledge, as it were, in the fields1074of being and becoming. As individuals our role is to1075bring, as kindling, our limited knowledge to the place1076of sacrifice in that field, at the place of ritual,1077where we may recall the teaching of the RgVeda:



1078agninAgniH samidhyate1079'By Agni, Agni is inflamed.' RV I.12.6

1080This is a simple mantra to chant, easy to interpret,1081power-full when realised. In truth, our spiritual1082practice is no more than allowing that which is1083already present to manifest in ever expanding1084fullness.1085It may be a distraction to mention this here but an1086essential point relevant to YAska's thinking needs to1087be made. For the meaning of mantra to be realisable1088today we have to consider the eternality of meaning1089hidden within sound.1090In our day-to-day language sounds stay the same but1091meanings appear to change at random. For example,1092here in UK when I was a child, the sound 'gay' meant1093'merry' and was an adjective. For my children's1094generation 'gay' is a noun or adjective and means1095'homosexual'. For my grandchildren, 'gay' is once more1096an adjective and means 'pathetic'. Such confusion of1097meanings faced YAska and those who wished to1098demonstrate and explain the meaning of mantra used in1099ritual. If sounds could change their meaning then the1100permanence of the mantra after an individual's death,1101indeed, the very eternality of the Vedas themselves,1102would be challenged. The SatapaTa-brahmaNa had stated1103that the knowledge attained through the ritual1104pronunciation of the Vedas remained with the 'knower'1105after death; te vidyAkarmano samavArabhete SB110614.7.2.3. If permanence of meaning of sounds is in1107speech only there can be no subtle sounds manifesting1108a causal impulse or inspiration, so YAska begins his1109Nirukta by dismissing such a view because it would1110inevitably be a denial of the Vedas as an eternal1111repository of knowledge. Nirukta I.1.1112We may like to reflect on this in relation to the1113sound mAyA. Are the Vedas eternal and their mantras1114able to realise themselves in all times? Should we1115try to understand mAyA through the Vedic commentators1116in history or through its translation into English as1117'illusion'? Or should we wait to hear the word afresh1118in the moment 'now'?1119(I am aware of the claim, by such as Kautsa, that1120Rgvedic mantras are meaningless and/or contradictory1121therefore rendering Nirukta as without value in Vedic1122exegesis. I leave it to others to argue this point if1123they wish.1124When countering Kautsa, YAska argues that1125contradictions only arise when the whole context is1126not known, that the 'appeal to a plant is to the1127divinity of the plant', and that the inability to1128discover the meaning of such allegedly meaningless1129words as 'amyak' or 'jArayAi', is that error of the



1130blind man walking into a post and blaming the post for1131his injury. Nirukta I.15-16 .1132It is in the light of such viewpoints that YAska1133pronounced yAjnadaivate pushpaphale devatAdhyAtme vA.1134Nirukta I.20 This final, fulfilling fruition of the1135meaning of the mantra, expanding totally in the subtle1136and gross levels as thought and speech, is1137illustrated by the Vedas themselves so YAska writes:1138'With these words, 'And to another she yielded her1139body' ( RV.X.71.4) she reveals herself, knowledge; the1140manifestation of meaning ( is described) by this1141speech….this is the praise of one who understands the1142meaning.' Nirukta I.191143(Please note, this is Sarup's translation so I have1144not altered his version of RV.X.71.4 which we have1145already had posted in a fuller translation in the last1146couple of days.)1147Message 23200 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1148 Msg #1149From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>1150Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:48 am1151Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/Vedangas and Yaska

1152--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>1153wrote:1154> Namaste all,1155>> Accustomed as he was to the classical Sanskrit of his1156> time, roughly 4th century BC , YAska needed to1157> penetrate the archaic Sanskrit of the Vedas. Coming in1158> a long line of those seeking the purity of the1159> original Rishi's vision, YAska was concerned with1160> revealing the original meaning of the Vedic mantras as1161> used in the rituals of his time. He chose etymology1162> and grammar as being the primary skills in this1163> process while, of course, recognising the importance1164> of Chhandas, metre. He also stated that it was through1165> the correct pronunciation of these mantras, by1166> suitably qualified persons, that their meaning came to1167> a flowering and fruition in their study and practice.1168>

1169Namaste.

1170My PraNAms to Ken-ji for a marvellous introduction to Yaska's1171Nirukta. May I appeal to all members of the group not to be1172overwhelmed by the excellent matter, in quantity as well as quality,1173that is being presented by Ken-ji, but to read every word of it1174rightaway so that we can enjoy and absorb the treasures that are1175bound to follow from his pen in the future posts. I think this is1176THE opportunity for all of us to really learn something deep of the1177most ancient text of mankind.



1178If it can be of any help, readers may want to read the following1179short note on Nirukta, from the discourses of Mahaswamigal of Kanchi:1180http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part9/chap1.htm

1181PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda.1182Profvk1183Message 23201 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1184 Msg #1185From: "Dennis Waite" <[email protected]>1186Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:01 am1187Subject: RE: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many: for Raghavarao

1188Hi Ken,

1189I'm not contributing very much to your topic I'm afraid - mainly sitting1190back in awe of your erudition! I am sure that many members of the list will1191be studying your posts in detail and that this will justify the vast amount1192of effort that you must have put in. This belief helps me assuage any guilt1193for not myself reading all of your posts to this depth. It would be very1194demanding on time to give them all of the attention they deserve and I am1195not that interested in going into this subject so deeply. Nevertheless, I1196must congratulate you on the readability and interest of even the difficult1197aspects.

1198I do enjoy your supporting material, such as the wonderful passage from Wind1199in the Willows. I also must thank you for pointing us to the chant sites.1200Whilst looking, I couldn't resist just trying Pandit Jasraj's interpretation1201of the Mandukya Upanishad for curiosity. I have subsequently ordered the CD!1202It sounds wonderful and can be heard in its entirety at the1203www.musicindiaonline.com site - all 3 hours of it! Are there any specific1204chants that you would recommend (actual URL pointing to ones that can be1205heard on-line)? I freely confess that I am interested from the point of view1206of musicality rather than specific relevance to the topic, if this is1207permissible! I am practically completely ignorant as regards Indian music1208and it clearly has so much to offer. A brief introduction from any member1209would be most welcome.

1210I would just like to query your comment on the St. John gospel. You said:

1211'The same was in the beginning with God.' He has1212already repeated himself three times, why do so again?1213What new element is he putting forward? The clue is in1214the word 'same'; see Sanskrit root Sam."

1215I have seen this sort of thing done before by commentators on the Gospels1216and wondered how it can be justifiable. Surely the original of the bible1217material is in Hebrew or Greek? How, then, can you take an English1218translation of this (same) and attempt to suggest that it was based on a1219Sanskrit word (or any other language other than the presumably Greek in1220which it was written)?



1221Best wishes,

1222Dennis1223Message 23202 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1224 Msg #1225From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>1226Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:58 am1227Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

1228Ken-Knightji observes... .. (in the introductory message number122923044)

1230"If any understanding of value emerges from my1231contribution to this study it is through the grace of1232Sri Anandamayi Ma and Dr. Gopinath Kaviraj who were1233met on one blessed day in Varanasi some 40 years ago.1234They both died many years back and although we never1235met again, physically that is, somehow they have1236subtly influenced my erratic efforts to understand the1237wisdom of India."

1238and now again he reiterates

1239"I began this topic also by honouring and naming Sri1240Anandamayi Ma and Dr Gopinath Kaviraj. If any1241understanding shines through these postings it is1242through their presence. As the rishi and devataH are1243invoked at the beginning of the hymn so these two1244wonderful people were invoked at the beginning of this1245topic. "

1246Ken Knightji ! That is the way to go ! It appears to me that the1247great FEMALE TANTRIK guru Sri ANANDAMAYI MA gave you 'shaktipat'1248or 'nayana diksha' when she met you in Varanasi some 40 years ago1249when you were a mere lad of 23 years. We can seen the 'grace of guru'1250and the 'grace of Saraswati devi' ( the goddess of speech and1251learning ) flowing through your mighty Pen.

1252On this beautiful Thursday dedicated to the Guru , it is my pleasure1253to bring to you this all time favorite verse of mine

1254As it is said in the Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.23):

1255yasya deve para bhaktir1256yatha deve tatha gurau1257tasyaite kathita hy arthah1258prakasante mahatmanah

1259"Unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and



1260the spiritual master, all the imports of Vedic knowledge are1261automatically revealed." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23)

1262Yes ! it is through the devotion to the Guru and to the God/ess1263that one can really understand such complex truths of Vedic texts.

1264Kenji writes again...

1265`I ask, unknowing, those who know, the sages, as one1266all ignorant for sake of knowledge,1267What was that ONE who in the Unborn's image hath1268stablished and fixed firm these worlds' six regions.'

1269It is this question that leads into the famous 'two1270birds in a tree' image so beloved of Vedantins.

1271Yes! the imagery of two birds sitting on a tree from the upanishads !1272why only beloved of Vedantins ? THE imagery of two birds sitting on a1273tree is beloved of dwaithas too? You know, i IN my gopi heart ,1274KRISHNA OR VISHNU HAS TAKEN A PERMANENT RESIDENCE. and every1275wednesday, i listen to Sri Vishnu Sahasaranama in the melodious voice1276of Smt. M.S. Subbalaxmi.

1277"dvA *suparNA* sayujA sakhAyA samAnam vRksham parishvajAte1278tayoranyah pippalam svAdvanti, anaSnan anyo abhicAkaSIti1279(mundakopanishad - 3.1) -

1280literally translated it means (dwaitha interpretation)

1281In the upanishad-s, we have reference to two beautiful birds sitting1282on the same tree - signifying the jIvAtmA and the ParamAtmA dwelling1283in the same body. One (jIvAtmA) eats the fruits of actions, and the1284other (ParamAtMA) just gazes on (sAkshI).

1285A pair of white-winged birds extremely friendly to each other sit on1286one and the same tree; one eats the fruits, the other eats not and1287gazes on".

1288SrI rAdhAkRshNa Sastri refers to one as the great enjoyer (pErinbam),1289and the other as the Great Knower (pEraRivu).

1290thus,

1291Two birds of handsome wings (the Jiva and Ishvara), inseparable1292companions, dwell on the same (Ashvattha) tree (the body). One of the1293birds (the Jiva) eats the (really bitter) fruit as if it is sweet.1294The other Bird (Ishvara or God), without eating, looks on,1295illuminating all around.

1296once again,

1297dvA suparNA sayujA sakhAyA samAnam vrikSham parishasvajAte |



1298tayoranyah pippalam svAdvatti anashnan anyah abhicAkashIti ||

1299Two birds of handsome wings (the Jiva and Ishvara), inseparable1300companions, dwell on the same (Ashvattha) tree (the body). One of the1301birds (the Jiva) eats the (really bitter) fruit as if it is sweet.1302The other Bird (Ishvara or God), without eating, looks on,1303illuminating all around.

1304and who is the "SUPARNA" ?

1305One of the names of sri Vishnu bhagwan is "Suparana" ( nama -194 in1306Sri vishnu sahasaranama)

1307a) (literally) it means one possessed of charming feathers

1308b) One who can lead men to the other shore across the ocean of1309samsAra.

1310Om suparNAya namah.

1311a) In SrImad-bhAgavatam we have - siddheSvarANAm kapilah suparNo'ham1312patatriNAm - Among the siddha-s, I am Kapila, and among birds I am1313GaruDa (11.16.15). In Bhagavad-gItA, we have mRgANAm ca mRgendro'ham1314vainateyaSca pakshiNAM - Among beasts, I am the lion, their king, and1315among birds, I am GaruDa, the son of VinatA (10.29). Thus, suparNa is1316interpreted as referring to His being the Best of the best in all1317that exist.

1318b) parNa means wings. Sobhana parNatvAt suparNah - suparNa means One1319with auspicious and beautiful wings. He is suparNa because He carries1320His devotees to the other shore of the ocean of samsAra.

1321home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/sahasra/sloka21.html - 18k - Cached -

1322THis jiva ( me) always likes to maintain a tiny 'separateness' from1323MAHA VISHNU so she can worship Him in all the nine modes of1324devotion.

1325Now for the advaitic interpretation... any takers?

1326Thank you kenji for another wonderful post in these series...

1327one of the names of Sarswati is The womb or source of the Vedas1328(Vedagarbha)

1329and right now , she has incarnated in this forum through You, kenji! Y

1330AUM SARASWATHYAII NAMAHA!1331Message 23203 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1332 Msg #



1333From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>1334Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:58 pm1335Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: The Sound of Vedic Music!

1336Shri Dennis-ji asks ...

1337" Are there any specific > chants that you would recommend (actual1338URL pointing to ones that can be heard on-line)? I freely confess1339that I am interested from the point of view of musicality rather1340than specific relevance to the topic, if this is permissible! I am1341practically completely ignorant as regards Indian music and it1342clearly has so much to offer. A brief introduction from any member1343would be most welcome."

1344Indian Music is like Sushi ! You have to cultivate a 'taste' for it1345and you have to be in a 'mood' fot it.

1346But there is always a first time ...

1347Once you start listening to Indian music, it grows on you .

1348Thus is one site i often use ( which you have already mentioned) !1349one must know how to navigate around this site in order to enjoy1350different kinds of indian music, from the classical to cine music -1351instrumental to vocal.

1352PLease try ...

1353Vedic Chants by Ravi Shankar ...1354http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/02000H0010 - 22k - Cached

1355Listening to these chants really puts one in an ecstatic mood and1356throughout the day you feel good and you don't need any other UPPERS!

1357Another site i frequent is

1358http://www.sangeetham.com

1359but that is real Classical stuff and is mostly in classical ragas1360sung in indian languages ...

1361again, it is all about cultivating a taste for indian music! once you1362start enjoying listening to it, you cannot do without it! it is1363addictive !

1364Of course, one can always go to http://www.amazon.com1365and buy cds on line!

1366Happy Listening!

1367enjoy!



1368Message 23204 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1369 Msg #1370From: ken knight <[email protected]>1371Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:24 am1372Subject: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many: for Dennis

1373--- Dennis Waite <[email protected]> wrote:1374>I am1375> not that interested in going into this subject so1376> deeply.

1377Good Morning Dennis,1378Yes you are. The Vedas are not books. They are what is1379in front of you and all around you and flowing through1380you. You cannot help but be interested.1381And mAyA ? Well we haven't got to that one yet.1382Sorry about all the words though but I could not think1383of any other way to do this usefully for people.1384> Are there any specific1385> chants that you would recommend (actual URL pointing1386> to ones that can be1387> heard on-line)?

1388I think each person will find that which vibrates most1389harmoniously for themselves so may I ask you to search1390through the sites listed. Bit of a task but these1391things have a way of revealing themselves.1392Did you ever learn any SES version of Sanskrit? If1393so, have a look at the www.flaez.ch site and use the1394transliteration there for a hymn that appeals to you.

1395This suggestion then raises the problem of purity. We1396really need to sit at the feet of a master when we are1397three years old when we can still listen.....1398About five years ago I spent three days with some sama1399veda chanters from Kerala who tried to teach a group1400in the traditional way....all of us were hopeless; too1401old.1402However, I do feel that if we approach the hymns with1403sincerity, with respectful acknowledgement of the1404devaH to whom it is dedicated and the Rishi who spoke1405it, through the awakening of dhI, then we may hear1406something powerful emerging from our own mouths.

1407We may also be turned into frogs if we get it totally1408wrong but there you go.1409We might be better at being frogs than we are at being1410humans.1411We might even be frogs in a pond in the forest1412hermitage where we can hear the Vedas chanted



1413correctly all day.........apologies to those on this1414site who know that I have adapted the story of the1415hermit who fell in love with a deer whose mother had1416been killed..1417>1418> I would just like to query your comment on the St.1419> John gospel. ..... How, then, can you1420> take an English1421> translation of this (same) and attempt to suggest1422> that it was based on a1423> Sanskrit word (or any other language other than the1424> presumably Greek in1425> which it was written)?

1426Pretty easy that one although the Greek is possibly1427more interesting than the English.1428Firstly 'same'. Skeat's etymological dictionary will1429refer you to the Sanskrit 'sama' as well as many other1430sources all related to a meaning of 'together' 'even'1431'identical' 'of the like kind'. As you know, because1432of the Roman influences, 'c' in English can be sounded1433softly 's' or with the hard 'K' sound as in1434communication. So if you look at words like 'symmetry'1435'sympathy' you will find the 'same' being developed in1436the prefix.

1437The Greek 'outos' is what is being translated as1438'same'. This is not quite accurate in our modern1439meaning but it may have had a different emphasis in1440King Jams' time. The most usual meaning of 'outos'1441is 'this' as the demonstrative pronoun. It also has1442the meaning 'for this reason' which would link it with1443one of core meanings of Logos which is translated as1444'Word'. I once set a Greek scholar friend to the task1445of studying 'outos' for me and she was enthralled with1446the subtleties of meaning she found there. If you can1447get hold of a Greek Lexicon of the New Testament may I1448recommend that you have a look.

1449Finally, on this little sidetrack, the April1450discussion on purna had much to say on Skt. 'Idam'. In1451the way John presents the prologue to the Gospel I1452think that he may well have had such a concept in1453mind.

1454So, too many words again. But I blame you for for1455setting me off down this road. However, I do agree1456with you, as we have said before, that the imagery of1457one religious tradition should not be imposed upon1458another in some populist fashion; that does not mean1459that we should not peer behind the veils though.

1460Thanks for joining in,



1461Ken Knight

1462Message 23207 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1463 Msg #1464From: ken knight <[email protected]>1465Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:04 am1466Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

1467--- adi_shakthi16 <[email protected]> wrote:1468> It is this question that leads into the famous 'two1469> birds in a tree' image so beloved of Vedantins.1470>1471> Yes! the imagery of two birds sitting on a tree from1472> the upanishads !1473> why only beloved of Vedantins ?

1474> and who is the "SUPARNA" ?

1475Namaste,1476Thank you indeed for this great collection based1477around suparNA. Again, this is why I have been asking1478for help from those of you who have these traditions1479in your hearts through practice and experience. I1480have to rely on my fingers opening the right page of a1481book.

1482Why only vedantins?1483Because of my own personal history in which I have1484only heard Vedantins add their gloss to these texts.1485Ofen in a stridently intellectual fashion. My Indian1486friends here are all very devotional in their1487preferences and are not too interested in sruti. They1488look at me in bewilderment if I ask them the meaning1489of some texts; it is just not their path.

1490If we go back to the Rgveda and seek out the two birds1491in a tree we will find that some important element in1492the original image are missing from all the later1493texts. There is no doubt that this is the original1494text:

1495RVI.164 21,221496yátraa suparNaá amR'tasya bhaagám ánimeSaM1497vidáthaabhisváranti |1498inó víshvasya bhúvanasya gopaáH sá maa dhiíraH paákam1499átraá vivesha ||

1500'Where those fine Birds hymn ceaselessly their portion1501of life eternal, and the sacred synods,1502There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath



1503entered into me the simple.'

1504yásmin vRkSé madhvádaH suparNaá nivishánte súvate1505caádhi víshve |

1506tásyéd aahuH píppalaM svaadv ágre tán nón nashad yáH1507pitáraM ná véda ||

1508'The tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness,1509where they all rest and procreate their offspring,-1510Upon its top they say the fig is luscious none gaineth1511it who knoweth not the Father.'

1512That is amazing. A book needs to written on those1513verses.

1514I would also link in a verse, that I have previously1515omitted in recent postings, from the Kena Upanishad.1516IV.61517'Brahman is wll known as the one adorable to all1518creatures: (hence) It is to be meditated on with the1519help of the name 'tadvana'. All creatures surely pray1520to anyone who meditates on It in this way.'

1521For those without any Sanskrit, 'tadvanaM' comes from1522tasya, his, vanaM, which has many meanings to do1523with abundance, fullness, the adorable. Hence swami1524Gabhirananda comments: 'It is adorable to all1525creatures, since it is their indwelling Self.1526Therefore Brahman is tadvanaM nAma, well known as the1527one to be adored by all beings. Since it is tadvana,1528therefore tadvanam iti, through this name, tadvana,1529which is indicative of Its quality; It is upAsitavyam,1530to be meditated on.'

1531As meditation in/on nirguna brahman is for the few;1532this meditation on a quality is being offered as the1533path for the majority of us.

1534I had slipped the following into my posting on Yaska:1535'Failure to penetrate to the very heart of meaning1536when sounding the mantras, or the listening to such a1537recitation without understanding their meaning, in his1538opinion, withers the 'flowers so that they fail to1539fruit.' Through such failure the sweetest fruit at the1540top of the tree cannot be directly experienced.'

1541I was referring to these two verses in particular.

1542More later



1543Ken Knight1544Message 23208 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1545 Msg #1546From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>1547Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:39 pm1548Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

1549--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>1550wrote:1551>1552> I would also link in a verse, that I have previously1553> omitted in recent postings, from the Kena Upanishad.1554> IV.61555> 'Brahman is wll known as the one adorable to all1556> creatures: (hence) It is to be meditated on with the1557> help of the name 'tadvana'. All creatures surely pray1558> to anyone who meditates on It in this way.'1559>1560> For those without any Sanskrit, 'tadvanaM' comes from1561> tasya, his, vanaM, which has many meanings to do1562> with abundance, fullness, the adorable. Hence swami1563> Gabhirananda comments: 'It is adorable to all1564> creatures, since it is their indwelling Self.1565> Therefore Brahman is tadvanaM nAma, well known as the1566> one to be adored by all beings. Since it is tadvana,1567> therefore tadvanam iti, through this name, tadvana,1568> which is indicative of Its quality; It is upAsitavyam,1569> to be meditated on.'

1570Namaste, Ken-ji

1571This kenopanishad IV.6 that you have quoted above reminds me of some1572more mantras from "udaka-shAnti" mantras (Yajur Veda) about which I1573had written earlier. These 'udaka-shAnti' mantras are an anthology1574from various parts of yajur veda, strung together in a particular1575sequence, for the purpose of ritual purification and sacramenting1576of water kept in a vessel for the occasion. As I told you earlier,1577the entire nAsadIya sUkta of the Rg Veda occurs here, though in its1578yajus form (i.e. as it appears in Yajur veda).

1579Now as soon as the nasadiya portion ends, the next set of mantras1580that follow are similar to the kenopanishad mantras above. I am1581quoting them below, in Sanskrit. I do not know the meaning fully.1582But I am sure it also must be somewhere in Rg Veda. If you have not1583already quoted it, can you locate it for me, so that I can look for1584the translation at the right place? The mantras are as follows:

1585"kim-svid-vanaM ka u sa vRkshha AsIt1586yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh1587manIshhiNo manasA pRcchate dutat1588yad-adhyatishhTat bhuvanAni dhArayan



1589brahma-vanaM brahma sa vRkshha AsIt1590yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh1591manIshhiNo manasA vibravImi vaH1592brahma-adhyatishhTad-bhuvanAni dhArayan "

1593You can see it means something like this: "Brahman is the abundant1594forest of 'trees' It supports this earth and all the universes.Man1595can only imagine it in his mind". The words "vanaM" and "vRkshha"1596must be interpreted in the style of 'tadvanaM nAma' as in the above1597upanishadic quotation.

1598I havce only a vague understanding of the meaning. Can you help me1599(1) to locate the corresponding portion in Rg Veda, if it is there;1600and1601(2) to unravel the meaning, more deeply. Thanks.

1602PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda1603profvk

1604Message 23210 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1605 Msg #1606From: ken knight <[email protected]>1607Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:40 pm1608Subject: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many:For Professor VK

1609--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote: > >1610Namaste, Ken-ji1611>1612> Now as soon as the nasadiya portion ends, the next1613> set of mantras1614> that follow are similar to the kenopanishad mantras1615> above. I am1616> quoting them below, in Sanskrit. I do not know the1617> meaning fully.1618> But I am sure it also must be somewhere in Rg Veda.1619> If you have not1620> already quoted it, can you locate it for me, so that1621> I can look for1622> the translation at the right place? The mantras are1623> as follows:1624>1625> "kim-svid-vanaM ka u sa vRkshha AsIt1626> yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh

1627Namaste Professor,1628This first is from RV. X.31.7 You can have a look as1629www.flaez.ch and find similar Rks1630kíM svid vánaM ká u sá vRkSá aasa yáto dyaávaapRthivií1631niSTatakSúH1632saMtasthaané ajáre itáuutii áhaani puurviír uSáso1633jaranta1634'What was the tree, what wood, in sooth, produced



1635it, from which they fashioned forth the Earth and1636Heaven?1637These Twain stand fast and wax not old for ever: these1638have sung praise to many a day and morning'

1639Trans. Griffith.1640For some reason I was reminded of this which comes1641from one of my favourites1642RV.VI.9.61643ví me kárNaa patayato ví cákSur viiaàdáM jyótir1644hR'daya aáhitaM yát |

1645ví me mánash carati duuráaadhiiH kíM svid vakSyaámi1646kím u nuú maniSye ||

1647'Mine ears unclose to hear, mine eye to see him; the1648light that harbours in my spirit broadens.1649Far roams my mind whose thoughts are in the distance.1650What shall I speak, what shall I now imagine?'

1651The rest have yet to yield to an RV search but I will1652have another attempt in a while. I have to do some1653telephoning before people go off to bed.1654Thank you for this. Very enjoyable task. I always1655used to translate vanaM as forest standing for the1656mind. Besides word-searching the Rgveda I will have a1657look at Yaska to see what he says about any of these1658words.

1659I will return to this later or first thing tomorrow,

1660Ken Knight

1661> manIshhiNo manasA pRcchate dutat1662> yad-adhyatishhTat bhuvanAni dhArayan1663> brahma-vanaM brahma sa vRkshha AsIt1664> yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh1665> manIshhiNo manasA vibravImi vaH1666> brahma-adhyatishhTad-bhuvanAni dhArayan "1667>1668> You can see it means something like this: "Brahman1669> is the abundant1670> forest of 'trees' It supports this earth and all the1671> universes.Man1672> can only imagine it in his mind". The words "vanaM"1673> and "vRkshha"1674> must be interpreted in the style of 'tadvanaM nAma'



1675> as in the above1676> upanishadic quotation.1677>1678> I havce only a vague understanding of the meaning.1679> Can you help me1680> (1) to locate the corresponding portion in Rg Veda,1681> if it is there;1682> and1683> (2) to unravel the meaning, more deeply. Thanks.1684>1685> PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda1686> profvk1687Message 23211 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1688 Msg #1689From: "Dennis Waite" <[email protected]>1690Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:53 pm1691Subject: RE: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many: Sound of Vedic music

1692Hi Ken-ji and Adi-ji,

1693Thanks for that. Just a clarification of the point I was making about the1694translation - I'm afraid I did not express myself very clearly. I am1695certainly happy that the English word 'same' is derived from the Sanskrit1696'sama' - I would never have challenged you over that. My point was that the1697word 'same' never occurred in the original. The original word was, as you1698say, the Greek 'outos'. My point was that it does not seem reasonable to1699claim that 'outos' came from the Sanskrit 'sama'. It seems that this was1700what you were effectively saying. At the time that the original was written,1701it had not yet been translated into English so the word 'same' was nowhere1702present.

1703I've had a look at the 'flaez' site - I didn't see that there were any audio1704chants there. Yes, I did all of the chants at SES and quite enjoyed them. I1705learnt all of my Sanskrit from there - enough, anyway to write my 'Essential1706Guide to Sanskrit' book!

1707Thanks for the reference to the Ravi Shankar chants, Adi-ji. Amazing - when1708I said that I was totally ignorant, I should have said apart from the Ravi1709Shankar chants I have on CD! These are the same ones, though they are1710excellent. More like these, please! Many of the ones we learnt at SES are1711here, actually, though we learnt different melodies.

1712Best wishes,

1713Dennis



1714Message 23212 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1715 Msg #1716From: ken knight <[email protected]>1717Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:54 pm1718Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/ For Professor VK

1719Search. Compare. Save. 1720--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote: > >1721> "kim-svid-vanaM ka u sa vRkshha AsIt1722> yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh1723> manIshhiNo manasA pRcchate dutat1724> yad-adhyatishhTat bhuvanAni dhArayan

1725Namaste again,

1726Sorry, I meant to include this but it had hidden1727itself:

1728RV X. 81. 41729kíM svid vánaM ká u sá vRkSá aasa yáto dyaávaapRthivií1730niSTatakSúH |

1731mániiSiNo mánasaa pRchátéd u tád yád adhyátiSThad1732bhúvanaani dhaaráyan ||

1733'What was the tree, what wood in sooth produced it,1734from which they fashioned out the earth and heaven?1735Ye thoughtful men inquire within your spirit whereon1736he stood when he established all things.'

1737More later,

1738ken Knight1739Message 23214 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1740 Msg #1741From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>1742Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:19 pm1743Subject: Re: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many: Sound of Vedic music

1744--- In [email protected], "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

1745More like these, please! Many of the ones we learnt at SES are1746> here, actually, though we learnt different melodies.

1747Namaste,

1748A cassette of Veda chanting is available from the Ramanashram1749office. The selections were done by Maharshi himself, and the Veda-1750Parayana has been carried on at the Ashram for almost 80 yrs, 45 min.



1751in the morning and in the evening. He said that these chants helped1752" 'still the mind' even if one did not know the meaning."

1753The cassette has these chants:

1754Taittiriya upanishad1755Shree suktam1756Mahanarayana upanishad (selections)1757Shri Rudram (namakam and chamakam)1758Purusha suktam1759Narayana suktam1760Durga suktam1761Taittiriya aranyaka (selections)

1762In addition, it has:

1763Ramana-chatvarinshat (40 verses in praise of Maharshi - composed by1764Vasishtha Ganapati Muni)1765Arunachalapancharatnam (Maharshi's own composition)- sanskrit1766Upadeshasaram ( " " ")- sanskrit

1767The cassette comes with a booklet which has English1768translations of the text.

1769Regards,

1770Sunder1771Message 23216 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1772 Msg #1773From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>1774Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:03 am1775Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: Suparna ...........

1776Ken-knightji!

1777This is awesome! Thank you for quoting these two verses on 'suparna'1778now it is becoming more and more clearer!

1779RVI.164 21,221780(yátraa suparNaá amR'tasya bhaagám ánimeSaM1781vidáthaabhisváranti |1782inó víshvasya bhúvanasya gopaáH sá maa dhiíraH paákam1783átraá vivesha ||

1784'Where those fine Birds hymn ceaselessly their portion1785of life eternal, and the sacred synods,1786There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath1787entered into me the simple.')

1788yásmin vRkSé madhvádaH suparNaá nivishánte súvate



1789caádhi víshve |

1790(tásyéd aahuH píppalaM svaadv ágre tán nón nashad yáH1791pitáraM ná véda ||

1792'The tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness,1793where they all rest and procreate their offspring,-1794Upon its top they say the fig is luscious none gaineth1795it who knoweth not the Father.')

1796Yes!

1797suparnaa vipraah kavayo vachobhirekam santam bahudhaa kalpayanti

1798The learned and wise describe the One existing God in many forms of1799expressions.

1800( Rig 10.114.5 )

1801Hari AUM!

1802Message 23217 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1803 Msg #1804From: ken knight <[email protected]>1805Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:00 am1806Subject: Re: [advaitin] June topic For Professor VK again and Adi-ji and others

1807Namaste Every One who comes this way,1808Either Professor Krishnamurthy of those powers that1809pull the strings are guiding us nicely towards our1810main topic of mAyA in the Vedas. As I have said1811several times, I am in need of those who have been1812brought up in the tradition and have it all ¡®in the1813heart¡¯. So thank you for the question as to the Vedic1814source of:

1815"kim-svid-vanaM ka u sa vRkshha AsIt1816yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh1817manIshhiNo manasA pRcchate dutat1818yad-adhyatishhTat bhuvanAni dhArayan1819brahma-vanaM brahma sa vRkshha AsIt1820yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh1821manIshhiNo manasA vibravImi vaH1822brahma-adhyatishhTad-bhuvanAni dhArayan

1823Last evening I posted some refs:1824RV VI.9.6 which had come to mind with this question1825although it is not immediately apparent why.1826RV.X.31, and RV X.81 which has the first four lines.1827Then I found myself in Ramanuja territory with all 81828lines. But I could see myself being led into an1829advaita, dvaita, vishistadvaita dialogue and I do not



1830want to go into that forest at the moment, valid as it1831is in later philosophy.1832The problem for me comes with the ¡®brahma-vanam1833brahma¡¯ if we are to accept the thesis that BrahmaNA1834in RV is to do with the ¡®Word of the praise song¡¯1835and a later development into the creator Brahma. As I1836could not find any similar texts to the last four1837lines, in the RV, I decided to stick with the first1838four lines as we have enough there, directly related1839to the June topic, to keep us going for weeks.

1840We must remember also that this is all being sparked1841by the use of ¡®tadvanam¡¯ in the Kena Upanishad (1842IV.7) as a meditation for those in need of a quality1843on which to focus the attention.1844As soon as I had found that Professor Krishnamurthy¡¯s1845question had led to X.81 I knew that he was leading me1846into the deepest oceans while I am still learning to1847swim. This hymn is dedicated to Vishvadevas and the1848Rshi has the same name, it is in the triSTubh metre.1849It is one of a set of ¡®creation hymns¡¯ and is1850directly related to our June topic, drawing together1851some of what we have discussed already and preparing1852the way for some future posts.

1853May I remind us of these points already presented:1854power as manifesting through a continual emanation1855witnessed by those with ears to hear and eyes to see,1856the question of the poets as to their place in this1857emanation, the emanation as yajna, the centrality of1858Word and speech in this emanation, and the two birds1859in the tree.

1860May I please direct you to this site where you will1861find some valuable information and references for1862further individual study.1863"http://www.vedah.com/org/literature/yajurVeda/creation.asp1864At this site Dr Shastry begins by saying :1865¡®Creation: The idea is mentioned in great detail in1866several anuv¨¡k¨¡s. There is the correspondence1867between the creation at the cosmic level and the mode1868of manifestation of the cosmic powers in an1869individual.¡¯

1870Now that is the crucial statement for us for the link1871between the inner, outer and all-pervading as1872discussed already. Before we get to RV.X.81.4 can we1873look at X.81.2 in which the poet asks.1874k¨ªM svid aasiid adhiSTha¨¢nam aar¨¢mbhaNaM katam¨¢t1875svit katha¨¢siit |1876y¨¢to bhu¨²miM jan¨¢yan vishv¨¢karmaa v¨ª dya¨¢m1877a¨²rNon mahina¨¢ vishv¨¢cakSaaH ||



1878¡®What was the place whereon he took his station? What1879was it that supported him? How was it?1880Whence Visvakarman, seeing all, producing the earth,1881with mighty power disclosed the heavens.¡¯1882Note the use of ¡®mahinA¡¯ which is that immense power1883expanding by will, by a magical might. We are on the1884way to understanding mAyA in the Rgveda but more on1885that later. Then we get ¡®vishv¨¢cakSaaH¡¯. Who is1886directing this study for that is the central feature1887for my pre-written first posting on mAyA due next week1888so it must stay in the future.

1889Now. RVX.81.3 is directly related to the famous1890Purusha Suktam, RV.X.90 which Tennyson seemed to use1891in his poem ¡®The Great Pantheism.¡¯ (It is on the Net1892if you want to Google it). I would suggest that this1893is why the later writers attached the concepts of1894these lines to Brahma.1895RV X.81.4 is the direct quote:1896k¨ªM svid v¨¢naM k¨¢ u s¨¢ vRkS¨¢ aasa y¨¢to1897dya¨¢vaapRthivi¨ª niSTatakS¨²H |1898m¨¢niiSiNo m¨¢nasaa pRch¨¢t¨¦d u t¨¢d y¨¢d1899adhy¨¢tiSThad bh¨²vanaani dhaar¨¢yan ||

1900¡®What was the tree, what wood in sooth produced it,1901from which they fashioned out the earth and heaven?1902Ye thoughtful men inquire within your spirit whereon1903he stood when he established all things.¡¯1904Are we now back in the same tree as in RV I,164? This1905is also by ViSvedevas but n ow it is dedicated to :1906ViSvedevas, vAk, waters, soma, agni, sUrya, vayu,1907time, sarasvatI,sAdhyas, sarasvAn or sUrya. An1908abundance.1909May I requote the relevant verses:1910dva¨¢ suparNa¨¢ say¨²jaa s¨¢khaayaa samaan¨¢M vRkS¨¢m1911p¨¢ri Sasvajaate |1912t¨¢yor any¨¢H p¨ªppalaM svaadv ¨¢tty ¨¢nashnann any¨®1913abh¨ª caakashiiti ||

1914¡®Two Birds with fair wings, knit with bonds of1915friendship, in the same sheltering tree have found a1916refuge.1917One of the twain eats the sweet Fig-tree's fruitage;1918the other eating not regardeth only.¡¯1919y¨¢traa suparNa¨¢ amR'tasya bhaag¨¢m ¨¢nimeSaM1920vid¨¢thaabhisv¨¢ranti |1921in¨® v¨ªshvasya bh¨²vanasya gopa¨¢H s¨¢ maa dhi¨ªraH1922pa¨¢kam ¨¢tra¨¢ vivesha ||

1923¡®Where those fine Birds hymn ceaselessly their1924portion of life eternal, and the sacred synods,1925There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath1926entered into me the simple.¡¯



1927y¨¢smin vRkS¨¦ madhv¨¢daH suparNa¨¢ nivish¨¢nte1928s¨²vate ca¨¢dhi v¨ªshve |1929t¨¢sy¨¦d aahuH p¨ªppalaM svaadv ¨¢gre t¨¢n n¨®n nashad1930y¨¢H pit¨¢raM n¨¢ v¨¦da ||

1931¡®The, tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness,1932where they all rest and procreate their offspring,-1933Upon its top they say the fig is luscious none gaineth1934it who knoweth not the Father.¡¯1935Back to X.81.4

1936¡®What wood produced it?¡¯ The use of wood as the1937material of creation occurs in many traditions;1938clearly, for someone looking around the tree is not1939just a beautiful form but it is the source of the wood1940for the fire, it extends into the heavens, it is1941mighty and produces the forests etc etc. From this1942wood ¡®the powers manifested earth and heaven¡¯ but1943what that actually mean cannot be discerned by1944intellect alone. Notice how the Rishis tells us that:1945¡®Ye thoughtful men inquire within your spirit whereon1946he stood when he established all things.¡¯1947Remember that Indra stands in where once the YakSa had1948stood:1949Kena Up. III.12:1950¡®In that very place, tasmin eva AkASe, the ¡®eva¡¯1951emphasising the point, the charming woman (umA)1952appeared in answer to his question, ¡®What is this1953YakSa?¡¯1954May we go back a few verses Kena Up. II.5.1955¡®If one has realised here, then there is truth; if he1956has not realised here, then there is great1957destruction. The wise, once having realised ¡®Brahman)1958in all beings, and having turned away from this world,1959become immortal.¡¯1960In acknowledging the beauty of the tree and the forest1961but not getting attached to the fruit on the lower1962branches the Father is known and the fruit at the top1963of the tree. The sweetness of immortality is realised.1964I think I had better stop that line of thought there1965as Millie the Border Collie is ready for her walk.1966First though. Recalling mahinA above. Later we will1967be looking at the story of the Rbhus who fashioned1968their chariot out of ¡®wood¡¯ before elevation to the1969heavens. Therefore this will be of use in relation to1970ViSvakarman.1971At the level of what we call ¡®nature¡¯ we have1972Tvastri, the divine artisan who, according to the1973atharva veda is ¡®in the beginning the counterpart of1974the waters. He receives the epithet Savitri, the solar1975deity. He is supAni ( the skilful-handed one),1976omniform and faithful to the law (RtAvan). ¡®He¡¯1977combines both the female and the male generative



1978power. Presiding over birth, he places the life seed1979in all creatures, shapes all forms, adorns heaven and1980Earth with the multivarious forms, forges the1981thunderbolt of Indra, fashions the soma cup for the1982gods and sharpens the axe for Brahmanaspati.1983It is the energising nature of ¡®his¡¯ (savitA) that1984is the vivifying power of Savitri to whom the GAyatrI1985mantra is dedicated. ViSvakarman takes on these1986duties, among others, and such differentiation causes1987the confusion of deities so we have ViSvadevas1988writing, RV X.164 46:1989They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is1990heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.1991To what is One, sages give many a title they call it1992Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.

1993Indeed the Vedas are endless but Ken is not so I must1994end with:1995Rc¨® akS¨¢re param¨¦ vy¨°man y¨¢smin deva¨¢ ¨¢dhi1996v¨ªshve niSed¨²H |1997y¨¢s t¨¢n n¨¢ v¨¦da k¨ªm Rca¨¢ kariSyati y¨¢ ¨ªt1998t¨¢d vid¨²s t¨¢ im¨¦ s¨¢m aasate ||

1999¡®Upon what syllable of holy praise-song, as twere2000their highest heaven, the Gods repose them,-2001Who knows not this, what will he do with praise-song?2002But they who know it well sit here assembled.¡¯

2003Thank you for your direction,

2004Ken Knight2005Message 23218 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2006 Msg #2007From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>2008Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:35 am2009Subject: Re: June topic For Professor VK again and Adi-ji and others

2010--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>2011wrote:2012>2013> May I please direct you to this site where you will2014> find some valuable information and references for2015> further individual study.2016> "http://www.vedah.com/org/literature/yajurVeda/creation.asp2017> At this site Dr Shastry begins by saying :2018> ¡®Creation: The idea is mentioned in great detail in2019> several anuv¨¡k¨¡s. There is the correspondence2020> between the creation at the cosmic level and the mode2021> of manifestation of the cosmic powers in an2022> individual.¡¯



2023>2024> Now that is the crucial statement for us for the link2025> between the inner, outer and all-pervading as2026> discussed already. Before we get to RV.X.81.4 can we2027> look at X.81.2 in which the poet asks.

2028Namaste, Ken-ji

2029Your enthusiasm is infectious! Thank you for giving me the right2030reference to Kapali Shastry's site above. It is going to give me a2031lot of enjoyable homework, for finding the correlates of the2032taittiriya samhita mantras that I know and the corresponding mantras2033of the Rg Veda. Thanks once again.

2034Regarding RV X.81, I notice that it is where the famous2035mantra "vishvatash-cakshhuruta vishvato mukho ..." is occurring. My2036father used to quote this along with the 'brahma-vanam' quote. Since2037you have already planned to discuss it in the future posts, I will2038not dabble in it now.

2039Incidentally, in your latest post, the fonts have got fumbled up. Is2040it a software failure at your end or at this 'advaitin' end?

2041praNAms to all students of Rg Veda2042profvk

2043Message 23242 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2044 Msg #2045From: ken knight <[email protected]>2046Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:28 pm2047Subject: June topic;mAyA in the Vedas: Purpose of division

2048Namaste all,2049This is the last of the introduction section and I2050hope that we can go into the Vedic hymns with some2051closer understanding of the contexts of ourselves and2052the rishis.2053For those who remember the lengthy discussion on2054infinity back in the April topic it may be worth2055looking back at Sunderji's posting that set it all2056off. It was a posting quoting HH. Sri2057Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Mahaswamiji in which he2058was using mathematical division as an illustration.

2059This posting builds on the last one on YAska's work in2060etymology and looks at the use of division in2061language. We know what we want to say and have to dig2062into our store of vocabulary to express it. An inner2063sound of meaning is divided for the purpose of sharing2064understanding.



2065Best wishes Ken Knight

2066Explanation through Division

2067(Please Note. Western scholars, seeking the meaning of2068the Vedas, were initially dependant upon the 14th2069century CE work of Sayana. His emphasis, in his2070commentary (bhAshya), upon the ritualistic aspect of2071the Vedic corpus does not always bring out the2072philosophical, non-dualistic passages that accord with2073Yaska's viewpoint. Dr. Ramachandra Rao has presented2074three illustrations of the adhyajna, adhidaivata and2075adhyAtma proponents. These in his presentation are,2076Sayana, Saunaka and Yaska respectively. 'RgVeda2077Darshana Volume Two Interpretations' S K Ramachandra2078Rao Kalpatharu Research Academy Publications 1998 )

2079The division of a primordial sound into words and2080syllables for the purpose of understanding may be2081taken to echo the process of emanation from the One2082into the many. YAska's comments on the flowering and2083fruiting of meaning through speech, are immediately2084followed by YAska recalling the status of the original2085rshis in the history of the Vedic mantras. He restates2086that through the power of penance, tapas, they2087'directly experienced, sAkshAtkRta, and involuntarily2088articulated, aspects of truth, dharmANaH. '

2089sAkshAtkRtadharmANa Rshayo babhUvoH | Nirukta I.20

2090When they had to pass on their insight to their2091children, their disciples or other interested persons,2092they had to expand their insights through explanations2093and instructions, upadeSha, and thereby created the2094spiritual tradition known as sampradAya. YAska uses2095the word sampradu.2096'They (seers) by oral instruction handed down the2097hymns to later generations who were destitute of2098direct intuitive insight. The later generations,2099declining in (power of) oral communication, compiled2100this work, the Veda, and the auxiliary Vedic2101treatises, in order to comprehend their meaning.'2102Nirukta I.20

2103In the earlier posting we noted the practice of2104mentioning the seers' names in the hymns accords with2105the tradition of acknowledging the authority of the2106Apta, the trustworthy person, who through valid,2107direct experiences can impart knowledge effectively.2108This illustrates the importance of the Apta and the2109need for us to find such a one to truly comprehend2110these texts.



2111YAska then concludes this section of his Nirukta with2112a stark statement:2113bilmaM bhilmaM bhAsanabhiti vA |2114'bilma=bhilma (division) or illustration.'

2115Placed at this point, in the explanation of the2116outpouring of the intuitively perceived mantra into2117later expositions and commentaries, is the suggestion2118that a division is for the purpose of illumination or2119illustration. A single sound, unintelligible to those2120without the power of insight in direct experience,2121requires division of that sound into syllables to2122enable contemplation, rational study and finally,2123revelation; the full experience of the meaning. This2124process of division for illumination is bilma or2125bhilma. It is a word right at the heart of our quest2126to understand how the Vedic teachers sought the answer2127to the questions, 'How, (or why), does the One become2128many?', 'How do we unveil the unity in this apparent2129diversity?'

2130To return to the example of the pupil learning2131multiplication: The knowledge of multiplication is a2132complete 'sound' or substratum in the awareness of the2133teacher. In order to teach it is necessary to divide2134up that knowledge into parts. Each part is limited, of2135partial usefulness, but contains the impulse of, and2136is linked to, the overall meaning. From the2137concentrated study, tapas, by the pupil, of those2138parts and the 'ritualistic' practices that accompany2139the study, a moment of direct experience comes, the2140eureka moment, and then the pupil shares in the2141awareness of the teacher.

2142I began the second posting of this series with a2143stanza from the Rgveda to illustrate how confusing the2144English translation of the Rgveda could be. It is2145therefore now relevant to note that in that hymn,2146which is dedicated to the 'Son of the Waters',2147apAMNapAt, there is given the only RgVedic use of that2148word chosen by Yaska, bilma, when he completes his2149explanation of the flowering and fruition of speech.

2150asmaí bahuunaám avamaáya sákhye yajñaír vidhema2151námasaa havírbhiH |2152sáM saánu maárjmi dídhiSaami bílmair dádhaamy ánnaiH2153pári vanda RgbhíH ||

2154'Him, nearest Friend of many, will we worship with2155sacrifice. and reverence and oblation.2156I make his back to shine, with chips (bilmair,2157division) provide him; I offer food and with my songs2158exalt him.' RV.II.35.12



2159The 'chips', the pieces of kindling, bring fire to the2160fire. Is there something here on the division of an2161eternal sound into the forms of the mantra ? We would2162need to look at the whole hymn to see this line in2163context but I think it is worth some study.2164The name of the devatA to whom this hymn is dedicated2165is sometimes given as tanUnapat while Griffith uses2166apAMNapAt from the opening stanza. Both of these are2167names of Agni and bring out the relationship of both2168fire and water in his elemental imagery. ApAMNapAt is2169Agni born in the form of lightning from the aerial2170ocean or the firmament. This I am interpreting here2171as an image for the immediate, directly intuited2172experience or insight which flashes, AshuhemA, into2173the poet's consciousness and flows out of his or her2174mouth as the sweet sounds of the mantra.

2175úpem asRkSi vaajayúr vacasyaáM cáno dadhiita naadyó2176gíro me |2177apaáM nápaad aashuhémaa kuvít sá supéshasas karati2178jóSiSad dhí ||

2179'Eager for spoil my flow of speech I utter: may the2180Floods' Child accept my songs with favour.2181Will not the rapid Son of Waters make them lovely, for2182he it is who shall enjoy them?' RV II.35.1

2183We are reminded here of :2184agninAgniH samidhyate2185'By Agni, Agni is inflamed.' RV I.12.6

2186The poet explains that it is Agni himself who will2187delight in the praise-song that he himself has2188inspired. The poet and singer is but the musical2189instrument in the hands of the celestial musician. The2190next verse tells us that the song, mantra, is2191'well-fashioned, forth from the heart', hRdá A2192sútaSTam mántraM. This is the famous expression, often2193translated as 'well-chiselled in or by the heart.'2194imáM sv àsmai hRdá aá sútaSTam mántraM vocema kuvíd2195asya védat |2196apaáM nápaad asuryàsya mahnaá víshvaany aryó bhúvanaa2197jajaana ||

2198'To him let us address the song well-fashioned, forth2199from the heart. Shall he not understand it'2200The friendly Son of Waters by the greatness of Godhead2201hath produced all things existing.' RV II.35.2

2202The Vedic relationship between rivers and2203inspirational speech has already been noted and we2204could take another diversion and look at the concept



2205of three rivers IlA, SarasvatI and BharatI (another2206time maybe)

2207Hymn 35 goes on to relate how Agni, himself the father2208of these three rivers, remains as the unborn child,2209resting in their womb and then is nourished by them2210when born, or borne maybe, on their waters.

2211asmaí tisró avyathyaáya naáriir devaáya deviír2212didhiSanty ánnam |2213kR'taa ivópa hí prasarsré apsú sá piiyuúSaM dhayati2214puurvasuúnaam ||

2215'To him three Dames are offering food to feed him,2216Goddesses to the God whom none may injure.2217Within the waters hath he pressed, as hollows, and2218drinks their milk who now are first made mothers.'2219RV.II.35.5

2220This manifestation is a division of the unmanifest2221godhead who is able to 'magically' expand, mahnA here2222seems to be used in the Vedic sense of mAyA, the power2223of the One to become many. The non-dual2224interpretation of these and the following words would2225seem to be that the unmanifest, through its own power2226and glory, impels the impulse or power that is the2227devatA at the subtle level, Agni in this instance,2228which in turn impels the inspirational thought in the2229mind/heart of the poet.

2230apaáM nápaad asuryàsya mahnaá víshvaany aryó bhúvanaa2231jajaana |

2232'The friendly Son of Waters by the greatness of2233Godhead hath produced all things existing.' RV.II.35.2

2234This undefined insight, or sound, is then2235'well-chiselled' in the heart of the poet and singer2236for the purposes of manifesting or revealing the2237hidden, or previously unmanifest, meaning. The2238ultimate intention of this process is of manifesting2239the One into many while seeking or realising the unity2240that is maintained throughout the appearance of2241diversity. As we seek a share in the insight of the2242Vedic poet we can but marvel at the accuracy, the2243precise 'chiselling', the compactness of their2244mantras.2245Here is a perfect example that would require a book, a2246veritable inundation, to explain its subtleties:2247'samAnám UrváM nadyàH pRNanti.' Those who heard this2248mantra in its correct context would have been aware of2249the mythological tales of the rishi Aurva but such a2250benefit is not available to myself now to enhance what



2251would be excessive speculation on the meaning of the2252creation of the submarine fire from his thigh.2253Griffiths translates the mantra well as, 'The sounding2254rivers fill one common storehouse', but inevitably2255this falls short.2256These rivers, tumbling by in the physical world, sound2257with bubbling, gurgling and roaring as they nourish2258the lives of those dwelling by them, as do the rivers2259of sound emerging in the hymn, but these do so in the2260subtle world of the heart/mind, these rivers of2261inspiration excite and inspire, nourish and fill the2262thoughts of the singer and listener, uniting them in2263the one, common place of utterance from which they2264emerge and in which they find their destination. This2265process is the fulfilment of the praise-song which2266reflects the intention of some primary impulse. The2267full meaning of pRNanti is indeed ineffable, only to2268be understood in direct experience after elucidation2269through division.

2270sám anyaá yánty úpa yanty anyaáH samaanám uurváM2271nadyàH pRNanti |2272tám uu shúciM shúcayo diidivaáMsam apaáM nápaatam pári2273tasthur aápaH ||

2274'Some floods unite themselves and others join them:2275the sounding rivers fill one common storehouse.2276On every side the bright Floods have encompassed the2277bright resplendent Offspring of the Waters.'2278RV.II.35.32279===========================================================2280Message 23274 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2281 Msg #2282From: ken knight <[email protected]>2283Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:14 am2284Subject: mAyA reply for Bhaskar

2285--- [email protected] wrote:2286>2287> To Sri Ken Knight prabhuji:2288>2289> I'd like to know *mAya* as explained in shankara's2290> advaita siddhAnta.2291> Kindly share your thoughts on this topic.

2292Namaste,2293I would be quite happy to do so but this, I believe is2294next month's topic. It was not the brief given to me2295by Sunderji and I do not want to pre-suppose a future2296presentation.2297As you will see by my e-mail address 'anirvacaniya' I



2298do understand and study Shankara.2299So, please bear with me. I am trying to present, as2300faithfully as possible, the original meaning of mAyA.2301On the way to presenting that topic it is necessary to2302such themes as eternality of meaning and 'meaning in2303context'. These are not topics generally discussed.

2304Previously I have posted on the teaching of primary2305and secondary meanings in advaita, especially in2306relation to the Mahavakyas. These will be in the2307archives.2308For now though you will be aware of this teaching2309kaivalya-advaita which is succinct:2310'Caitanya is either associated with antaHkaraNa or2311not. Caitanya associated with antahkarana is jIva.2312Caitanya not associated with antaHkaraNa is pure2313Brahman. ……………..Caitanya is either associated with2314mAyA (nescience) or free from mAyA. The Caitanya2315associated with mAyA is iShvara; and the Caitanya not2316associated with mAyA is pure Caitanya. The pure2317Caitanya is called Brahman.. When associated with the2318limiting adjunct (antaHkaraNa or mAyA), jIva as well2319as iShvara is different from Brahman. Without the2320limiting adjuncts, jIva and iShvara are identical with2321Brahman.'

2322Best wishes

2323Ken Knight

2324Message 23275 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2325 Msg #2326From: ken knight <[email protected]>2327Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:41 am2328Subject: June topic ;mAyA in the Vedas: Sri Aurobindo

2329Namaste all,2330Some people have mentioned that they have had2331difficulty with Sri Aurobindo's writings on the Vedic2332hymns. Exegesis of the Rgvedic saMhitA does produce2333highly individualistic interpretation and this is so,2334quite naturally, with Sri Aurobindo. This is a2335summary of his viewpoint on mAyA from his study of2336these texts:

2337He divides Maya into two levels. 'The higher Maya is2338the power of creative Self expression in the sphere of2339relativity, the infinite power of self-manifestation2340under the aspect of finitude is Maya. However, Maya2341is also the power of liberating the spirit from finite2342enclosure into a clear vision of its essential



2343totality in, or continuity with, the Infinite.2344The lower Maya is that which persuades each that2345existence as a self-contained, exclusive and separate2346entity is reality.'

2347I do not intend to follow this any further unless2348there is special interest in Sri Aurobindo.2349Let us see what we can make of the Rgveda ourselves.

2350Ken Knight

2351Message 23284 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2352 Msg #2353From: ken knight <[email protected]>2354Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:19 am2355Subject: June topic: The One Veda

2356Namaste all,2357In one of my earlier posts I asked if anyone knew of2358the authoritative source of the tradition that2359originally there was but One Veda. I still have the2360question open but would like to post the following2361that appeared by 'chance' this morning. It is a2362statement from one of the claimants to the seat of the2363Shankaracharya at Jyotir Math, the late HH. Sri2364Shantanand Saraswati.2365'....Even in the East, people were getting weaker and2366weaker. They were not able to resort to the same old2367austere practices which the Rishis and Munis had done2368before.........The Veda was originally one2369word....'Om', pranava shabda. But later it was divided2370into four sections...yajurveda, atharvaveda, rigveda2371and samaveda. Later on even this was found to be too2372difficult. Commentaries were written. Then it was2373found that even commentaries were not understood.2374Then it was further simplified till Vyasa came and he2375wrote the substance of them in form of anecdotes and2376stories, in history.'2377This affirms an earlier point that the way initially2378to understand the Rgveda is to hear these anecdotes2379and histories. But if we could but hear the pranava2380shabda......

2381Ken Knight

2382PS for those 'wrinklies' among us:2383Does anybody remember a Moody Blues LP 'In Search of2384the Lost Chord'? Whoever helped them write it really2385understood:2386This is the penultimate track:2387The Word2388.



2389'This garden universe vibrates complete,2390Some may get a sound so sweet.2391Vibrations, reach on up to become light,2392And then through gamma, out of sight.2393Between the eyes and ears there lie,2394The sounds of color and the light of a sigh.2395And to hear the Sun, what a thing to believe,2396But it's all around if we could but perceive.2397To know ultra-violet, infra-red, and x-rays,2398Beauty to find in so may ways.2399Two notes of the chord, that's our poor scope,2400And to reach the chord is our life's hope.2401And to name the chord is important to some,2402So they give it a word, and the word is OM.'2403Message 23285 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2404 Msg #2405From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>2406Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:19 pm2407Subject: Re: June topic: The One Veda

2408--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:2409> Namaste all,2410> In one of my earlier posts I asked if anyone knew of2411> the authoritative source of the tradition that2412> originally there was but One Veda. I still have the2413> question open but would like to post the following2414> that appeared by 'chance' this morning.

2415Namaste Kenji,

2416The questions of 'one veda' and 'infinite vedas' may not be2417easily reconciled. What is known is that Vyasa re-organized the vedic2418mantras in the presently known structure.

2419For more on this, Kanchi Mahaswamigal had this to say :

2420http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap38.htm

2421Regards,

2422Sunder2423Message 23286 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2424 Msg #2425From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>2426Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:47 pm2427Subject: Re: June topic: The One Veda

2428--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>2429wrote:



2430> Namaste all,2431> In one of my earlier posts I asked if anyone knew of2432> the authoritative source of the tradition that2433> originally there was but One Veda. I still have the2434> question open

2435Namaste Ken-ji

2436The purana reference for this occurs in Srimad Bhagavatam Skanda 12,2437Chapter 6, Shlokas 37 to 50. The following is the Prabhupada2438translation of these shlokas:

243937. Suta Gosvami said: O brahmana, first the subtle vibration of2440transcendental sound appeared from the sky of the heart of the most2441elevated Lord Brahma, whose mind was perfectly fixed in spiritual2442realization. One can perceive this subtle vibration when one stops2443all2444external hearing.

244538. By worship of this subtle form of the Vedas, O brahmana, mystic2446sages cleanse their hearts of all contamination caused by impurity of2447substance, activity and doer, and thus they attain freedom from2448repeated2449birth and death.

245039. From that transcendental subtle vibration arose the omkara2451composed2452of three sounds. The omkara has unseen potencies and manifests2453automatically within a purified heart. It is the representation of2454the2455Absolute Truth in all three of His phases-the Supreme Personality,2456the2457Supreme Soul and the supreme impersonal truth.

245840-41. This omkara, ultimately nonmaterial and imperceptible, is2459heard2460by the Supersoul without His possessing material ears or any other2461material senses. The entire expanse of Vedic sound is elaborated from2462omkara, which appears from the soul, within the sky of the heart. It2463is2464the direct designation of the self-originating Absolute Truth, the2465Supersoul, and is the secret essence and eternal seed of all Vedic2466hymns.

246742. Omkara exhibited the three original sounds of the alphabet-A, U2468and2469M. These three, O most eminent descendant of Bhrgu, sustain all the2470different threefold aspects of material existence, including the2471three2472modes of nature, the names of the Rg, Yajur and Sama Vedas, the goals2473known as the Bhur, Bhuvar and Svar planetary systems, and the three2474functional platforms called waking consciousness, sleep and deep2475sleep.



247643. From that omkara Lord Brahma created all the sounds of the2477alphabet-the vowels, consonants, semivowels, sibilants and2478others-distinguished by such features as long and short measure.

247944. All-powerful Brahma made use of this collection of sounds to2480produce2481from his four faces the four Vedas, which appeared together with the2482sacred omkara and the seven vyahrti invocations. His intention was to2483propagate the process of Vedic sacrifice according to the different2484functions performed by the priests of each of the four Vedas.

248545. Brahma taught these Vedas to his sons, who were great sages among2486the brahmanas and experts in the art of Vedic recitation. They in2487turn2488took the role of acaryas and imparted the Vedas to their own sons.

248946. In this way, throughout the cycles of four ages, generation after2490generation of disciples-all firmly fixed in their spiritual vows-have2491received these Vedas by disciplic succession. At the end of each2492Dvapara-yuga the Vedas are edited into separate divisions by eminent2493sages.

249447. Observing that people in general were diminished in their life2495span,2496strength and intelligence by the influence of time, great sages took2497inspiration from the Personality of Godhead sitting within their2498hearts2499and systematically divided the Vedas.

250048-49. O brahmana, in the present age of Vaivasvata Manu, the2501leaders of2502the universe, led by Brahma and Siva, requested the Supreme2503Personality2504of Godhead, the protector of all the worlds, to save the principles2505of2506religion. O most fortunate Saunaka, the almighty Lord, exhibiting a2507divine spark of a portion of His plenary portion, then appeared in2508the2509womb of Satyavati as the son of Parasara. In this form, named Krsna2510Dvaipayana Vyasa, he divided the one Veda into four.

251150. Srila Vyasadeva separated the mantras of the Rg, Atharva, Yajur2512and2513Sama Vedas into four divisions, just as one sorts out a mixed2514collection2515of jewels into piles. Thus he composed four distinct Vedic2516literatures.2517-------------2518One has to read the above carefully to note that the one omkara gave2519rise to all veda mantras in the three forms of riks yajus and sama2520but only for the purpose of kaliyuga they were divided by Vyasa into2521four distinct vedic literatures.



2522Ken-ji, this is the only reference I know where it is said that2523there was only one veda but they got divided into four at the2524beginning of kaliyuga.

2525PraNAms to all students of Vedas2526Profvk

2527Message 23287 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2528 Msg #2529From: ken knight <[email protected]>2530Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:07 pm2531Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: The One Veda

2532--- Sunder Hattangadi <[email protected]> wrote:2533> Namaste Kenji,2534>2535> The questions of 'one veda' and 'infinite2536> vedas' may not be2537> easily reconciled. >2538> For more on this, Kanchi Mahaswamigal had2539> this to say :2540>2541> http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap38.htm2542>2543Namaste Sunderji,

2544Thank you for this link. I have the book here but had2545missed this particular page.2546Some people have said that I have gone 'deeply' into2547this topic but I have barely touched the surface. To2548use the tale in the second posting, I have not held2549the smallest speck of dust from the three mountains2550that ParameShvara produced for the sage BharadvAja.2551Talks such as Chapter 38 indicate just how much there2552is to be known in the context of one born into that2553heritage.2554I am grateful just to have a taste and I hope that2555others will also be inspired to inquire into those2556teachings that lie behind the Upanishads. A single2557word, fully understood, will dissolve ignorance.

2558Many Thanks

2559ken Knight

2560Message 23289 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2561 Msg #2562From: ken knight <[email protected]>2563Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:02 am2564Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: The One Veda and Two Pigeons



2565--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:2566> The purana reference for this occurs in Srimad2567> Bhagavatam Skanda 12,2568> Chapter 6, Shlokas 37 to 50. The following is the2569> Prabhupada2570> translation of these shlokas:

2571Namaste Professor,2572Thank you many times over for this reference. This has2573been a long-term question for me. I must search my2574shelves for other translations. Certainly, these2575verses encapsulate so much of what I have tried to2576present in this study.2577Usually I avoid Prabhupada translations but I like2578this :2579> 37. Suta Gosvami said: O brahmana, first the subtle2580> vibration of2581> transcendental sound appeared from the sky of the2582> heart of the most2583> elevated Lord Brahma, whose mind was perfectly fixed2584> in spiritual2585> realization. One can perceive this subtle vibration2586> when one stops2587> all2588> external hearing.

2589Example. England has been unusually hot for the last2590few days so my wife and I live, eat and sleep in the2591garden. Each day as I breakfast I watch two birds,2592pigeons in this case, in a tree in the field opposite.2593It is the tallest tree. One sits still and the other2594clambers to the highest branch. From there it takes2595off, flapping its wings strenuously, frantically2596trying to reach maximum height as soon as possible,2597then it lets go of the effort and glides delightedly,2598twitching a wing from time to time to circle back to2599the tree to repeat the process several times.2600I do not speak 'pigeon' so whether it is doing this2601for fun or to attract the other pigeon I do not know.2602In my own mind there arises the intention to locate2603this event in the Rgvedic story of the two birds, or,2604ignoring the scientific 'why' and 'how' questions, to2605locate it in 'keneshitam', 'by whose impulse is it'.2606This question has the power to release the mind from2607such efforts mirrored by the pigeon's efforts to reach2608the highest point before it lets go and begins to2609glide. As the efforts fall away the presence of2610connection, the substratum of the observer, observed2611and observing emerges. Very simple.

2612There is the outer space, antaH, the inner space,2613bahiH, and the all pervading sarva-gata or vyApta.



2614To understand the Vedas in front of, within and2615pervading us, and to understand the written2616collections, all expressing the One Veda, the Omkara,2617we are assisted by devotion in its true meaning:

2618>2619> 38. By worship of this subtle form of the Vedas, O2620> brahmana, mystic2621> sages cleanse their hearts of all contamination2622> caused by impurity of2623> substance, activity and doer, and thus they attain2624> freedom from2625> repeated2626> birth and death.

2627This is all very pertinent personally because my study2628this morning was of Brahma SUtras I.1.312629('tat tad upAsanA-yogyatayA cha purushANAm') and2630Shankara's commentary. Although a personal study I2631came across the following which I am quoting fully as2632it is directly relevant to efforts to understand the2633Vedic hymns.2634I am quoting herethe words of Shri Ramachandra Rao in2635his book RgVeda Darshana Vol 2. p.222-3:

2636'This threefold distinction follows the eligibilty and2637capability of the different devotees. Some may2638worship Brahman as all-pervasive; They share the2639characteristics of the devas, being superior in2640intelligence and having abundance of divine grace.2641They visualize Brahman everywhere (brahma tatamam).2642They have all-round (inside and outside) illumination2643(sarva-prakASAH). They are the sages, who have2644disciplined themselves and broken the barrier of the2645limited mental equipment (sImAnam vidArya). Yet2646others, who are merely human but earnest2647practitioners, can worship Brahman only as an external2648image. They can find light only in the outside2649(bahiH-prakASAH)....2650The Vedic passages need to be interpreted in terms of2651the facility, direction and insight they provide to2652the three classes of human beings who are intent on2653spiritual fulfilment. Shankara also recognises that2654not all people are alike eligible to approach the2655infinite and absolute Brahman with devotion and2656concentration; .............

2657May I please recommend most strongly this book. (Dr.2658Ramachandra Rao has presented three illustrations of2659the adhyajna, adhidaivata and adhyAtma proponents.2660These in his presentation are, Sayana, Saunaka and2661Yaska respectively. 'RgVeda Darshana Volume Two



2662Interpretations' S K Ramachandra Rao Kalpatharu2663Research Academy Publications 1998 )2664It has all my own childish understanding presented2665with the maturity of one born in this tradition. The2666chapter on the Vedanta approach to understanding the2667Rgveda is what I have used above and will return to2668later before I launch into the Rgveda without2669reference to later works.

2670Thank you again, Professor Krishnamurthy

2671Ken Knight

2672>2673> 39. From that transcendental subtle vibration arose2674> the omkara2675> composed2676> of three sounds. The omkara has unseen potencies and2677> manifests2678> automatically within a purified heart. It is the2679> representation of2680> the2681> Absolute Truth in all three of His phases-the2682> Supreme Personality,2683> the2684> Supreme Soul and the supreme impersonal truth.

2685Message 23290 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2686 Msg #2687From: ken knight <[email protected]>2688Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:56 am2689Subject: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Power asnd Deception

2690Namaste all,2691I have been wondering how to step into a careful study2692of the hymns. Should I attempt a summary of previous2693postings? Should I just get straight into some2694examples of the word being used in context?2695Finally, I decided to begin with a later understanding2696of mAyA in advaitin terms but one which will link us2697directly with the Rgveda.

2698Ken Knight

2699MAyA in the Vedas: Part 2. First posting.

2700Before we enter our time-machine we may like to take a2701last look at the well-known countryside around us and2702take a brief, farewell glance at:2703PanchadaSI, Chapter II:2704http://cc.1asphost.com/shastras/ebooks/other_books/panchadasi.htm



270550. This peculiar nature of Maya is corroborated by2706the Vedic text which purports, there was neither2707non-existence nor existence then (i.e ., before2708creation) but there was darkness (by which is meant2709Maya). This attribution of existence to darkness (or2710Maya) is due to its association with existence, not by2711virtue of itself, in as much as it (existence) is2712denied to it (in the just mentioned Vedic passage).271351. Hence like nothingness, Maya also cannot be a2714distinct entity in its own right. …..271554. Power does not operate in the whole of Brahman2716but only in a part of it. Earth's power of producing2717pots is not seen in all earth but in a portion or mode2718of earth only, viz., in clay, i.e ., earth mixed with2719water.272055. The Shruti says: 'Creation is only a quarter of2721Brahman, the other three quarters are self-revealing'2722(i.e ., not dependent on Maya's effects for its2723revelation). Thus does the Shruti say Maya covers but2724a part of Brahman.'

2725Two of the Rgvedic hymns are being referred to here,2726The Creation Hymn (NAsadIya SUkta) in verse 50 and2727Purusha SUkta in verse 55.2728By pressing the buttons marked 'NAsa' and 'Pur' on the2729controls of our time-machine we accelerate off in a2730perfect launch into our history.

2731Looking out we see the German scholars of the 19th and273220th centuries, beavering away with their Sanskrit2733texts. In their work we will find many definitions of2734mAyA and there we can identify the culprits for the2735eventual translation into the English as 'illusion.'2736There is Monier Monier Williams writing in his2737dictionary of Sanskrit that the meaning of the word2738mAyA in the Rgveda is 'illusion' 'fraud' etc, this is2739just not true. See 'The Doctrine of Maya in the2740philosophy of the Vedanta' by P.B Shastri., p.5.

2741These Western scholars were dependant upon Sayana's2742commentary on the Rgveda and we note that we can see2743him as we pass through the 14th century AD. He is2744writing the words prajnA and kapaTa, 'mental power'2745and 'deception', as the definition of mAyA. And here2746is his problem. Limited to an adhiyajna interpretation2747of the Rgveda, limited to the outer forms, he has to2748use division to distinguish between the elements of2749meaning and by dividing his definition into these two2750words he is losing the full flowering of the meaning2751of mAyA as the power of a mysterious, intelligence,2752appearing through its own heat, tapas, as many2753different forms. He is missing the subtle meaning of2754this extraordinary will-power underlying difference:



2755(anekarUpagrahanasAmarthya)2756But he is too recent a commentator for us to stay and2757discuss it with him so we zoom further into our2758history.2759The linear time-line that controls our imaginary2760progress has a clever gateway mechanism that has been2761irrevocably set at 400BC. Once we have zoomed past2762that date we cannot return through the gateway until2763this topic ends so Yaska is our latest authority to2764whom we may go for non-dual insights.

2765The Creation Hymn (NAsadIya SUkta), RgVeda 10.129, and2766Purusha SUkta, RgVeda 10.90 both appear on our2767screens. To confirm on your screen go to:2768www.flaez.ch2769and navigate to Rgveda. Choose the Mandala(Book) and2770SUkta(Hymn) numbers then choose Griffith to get2771transliteration and a translation…if you want to know2772more of the hymn go to 'The Works'. (Please note, this2773site has some scanning errors and verse 5 of Purusha2774SUkta is not about 'cats' but 'eats')2775If you want to investigate the meanings click on the2776blue words and be taken to the dictionary and other2777hymns in which the word is used. This is a wonderful2778tool for our use.

2779The collection known as the Rgveda saMhitA has two2780parts: Mandalas 2-9 are the older while Mandalas 1 and278110 are later additions. The above two hymns therefore2782would be of the later collection and point to the2783essential, unknowable mystery and the mystery of2784appearance. Although often quoted with reference to2785mAyA we will not spend much time with them now other2786than take one line as our present mantra………please take2787time to sound and listen to the Sanskrit:

2788aániid avaatáM svadháyaa tád ékaM tásmaad dhaanyán ná2789paráH kíM canaása ||

2790'That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own2791nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.'

2792Were you tempted to let the eyes skim over the2793Sanskrit and grab at the English?2794If so, please go back. Look at the words. Hear them2795sound in the mind. Then let the words sound in the2796mouth. It is through such listening that space2797expands. Take time to be in that space with our2798ancestors. We may be studying together via the wonders2799of the Internet but please do not let the 'scanning'2800habits we have developed to cope with 'information2801overload' place a curtain over the mantras provided by2802the Rshis for the purpose of explaining their



2803insights.

2804Let us now look up RgVeda 1.164. Verse 37 which has2805the singer proclaiming:

2806'What thing I truly am I know not clearly: mysterious,2807fettered in my mind I wander.'

2808I know the feeling, my friend.

2809Maybe we should try to find the cave of the heart and2810see if there is any light there. In that same hymn,2811which is also very famous and known by the name2812ViSvedevas to whom it is dedicated as well as being2813the name of the poet, you will find mention of the2814GAyatrI metre. This will now require us to go further2815back in time into those Mandalas of the earlier2816collection, in this case to 3.62. to the most well2817known mantra in this GAyatrI metre:

281810, tát savitúr váreNyam bhárgo devásya dhiimahi |2819dhíyo yó naH pracodáyaat ||

2820'May we meditate on the Supreme2821On the all-pervading radiance of the ultimate source2822of divine light.2823May He inspire the innermost thoughts of our hearts.'

2824May we take that invocation into our future study.2825Take note that we are here requesting the enlightening2826of 'dhI' (see Key word posting). The lotus will open2827at the touch of the Sun's warmth.

2828Later tonight I will post the first of the major uses2829of the word in the Rgveda. I do not want this posting2830to become too long and having the later sections2831deleted without being read. They are too important.

2832'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed,2833breathed forth.'2834Message 23292 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2835 Msg #2836From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>2837Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:13 am2838Subject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Power asnd Deception

2839Namaste.

2840--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>2841wrote:



2842> Finally, I decided to begin with a later understanding2843> of mAyA in advaitin terms but one which will link us

2844Wonderful. This seems to be the right decision.

2845> http://cc.1asphost.com/shastras/ebooks/other_books/panchadasi.htm2846>2847> 55. The Shruti says: `Creation is only a quarter of2848> Brahman, the other three quarters are self-revealing'2849> (i.e., not dependent on Maya's effects for its2850> revelation). Thus does the Shruti say Maya covers but2851> a part of Brahman.'

2852Congratulations Ken-ji, for putting your finger at the right spot in2853the Pancadashi.

2854>2855> Two of the Rgvedic hymns are being referred to here,2856> The Creation Hymn (NAsadIya SUkta) in verse 50 and2857> Purusha SUkta in verse 55.2858> These Western scholars were dependant upon Sayana's2859> commentary on the Rgveda He is missing the subtle meaning of2860> this extraordinary will-power underlying difference:2861> (anekarUpagrahanasAmarthya)

2862I would also like to emphasize this along with you.

2863> Although often quoted with reference to2864> mAyA we will not spend much time with them now other2865> than take one line as our present mantra………please take2866> time to sound and listen to the Sanskrit:2867> aániid avaatáM svadháyaa tád ékaM tásmaad dhaanyán ná2868> paráH kíM canaása ||2869>2870> `That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own2871> nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.'2872>2873> Were you tempted to let the eyes skim over the2874> Sanskrit and grab at the English?2875> If so, please go back. Look at the words. Hear them2876> sound in the mind. Then let the words sound in the2877> mouth. It is through such listening that space2878> expands. Take time to be in that space with our2879> ancestors. We may be studying together via the wonders2880> of the Internet but please do not let the `scanning'2881> habits we have developed to cope with `information2882> overload' place a curtain over the mantras provided by2883> the Rshis for the purpose of explaining their2884> insights.

2885Oh Boy! How many times I must have recited these lines, "aániid2886avaatáM svadháyaa tád ékaM ..." without pausing to think about their



2887significance!. Thank you Ken-ji, you are opening up my inner eyes!

2888> Let us now look up RgVeda 1.164. Verse 37 which has2889> the singer proclaiming:2890>2891> `What thing I truly am I know not clearly: mysterious,2892> fettered in my mind I wander.'

2893On my own and on behalf of all the readers on this list, I want to2894bow down and prostrate to that Absolute and its play of mAyA which2895has brought this Rg Veda exposition by you to this list and through2896it to posterity!

2897PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda2898Profvk2899Message 23294 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2900 Msg #2901From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>2902Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:24 am2903Subject: Re: June topic: The One Veda and Two Pigeons

2904--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>2905wrote:2906>> This is all very pertinent personally because my study2907> this morning was of Brahma SUtras I.1.312908> ('tat tad upAsanA-yogyatayA cha purushANAm') and2909> Shankara's commentary.

2910Ken-ji, I am not able to locate this in the Brahma sutra book. I-1-291131 is omething else.

2912> May I please recommend most strongly this book. (Dr.2913> Ramachandra Rao has presented three illustrations of2914> the adhyajna, adhidaivata and adhyAtma proponents.2915> These in his presentation are, Sayana, Saunaka and2916> Yaska respectively. `RgVeda Darshana Volume Two2917> Interpretations' S K Ramachandra Rao Kalpatharu2918> Research Academy Publications 1998 )

2919Is this book available online?

2920PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda2921Profvk2922Message 23298 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2923 Msg #2924From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>2925Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:07 pm2926Subject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Power asnd Deception



2927--- In [email protected], "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@y...>2928wrote:2929> Namaste.2930>2931> --- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>2932> wrote:

2933>2934> Congratulations Ken-ji, for putting your finger at the right spot2935in2936> the Pancadashi.2937>2938> > These Western scholars were dependant upon Sayana's2939> > commentary on the Rgveda He is missing the subtle meaning of2940> > this extraordinary will-power underlying difference:2941> > (anekarUpagrahanasAmart)

2942Namaste,

2943Is it not inscrutable that Sayana was Vidyaranya's brother?!!

2944Regards,

2945Sunder

2946Message 23299 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2947 Msg #2948From: ken knight <[email protected]>2949Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:27 pm2950Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Power asnd Deception

2951--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:2952> On my own and on behalf of all the readers on this2953> list, I want to2954> bow down and prostrate to that Absolute and its play2955> of mAyA which2956> has brought this Rg Veda exposition by you to this2957> list and through2958> it to posterity!

2959Namaste Professor,2960Again, thank you for your personal encouragement and2961help. Although my own errors are obvious there is no2962doubt that this study has been directed, by the powers2963inherent in the Vedas and the all our individual2964teachers upon whose shoulders we stand. Through the2965miracles of cyber-space all the wonderful2966contributions to our various topics are available to2967any passing, curious intellect. How else could we have



2968met except through the Net so all salutations to this2969wonderful innovation.2970Not many members contribute but those who do provide2971clues to the next step. It is then a matter of waiting2972for a book to fall open at the right place and then to2973follow as faithfully as possible that which is already2974there in the text. As the mantra states:2975'By Agni Agni is inflamed '2976agninAgniH samidhyate

2977In the next posting I am going to need your knowledge2978of sandhi,

2979Once again,2980Many sincere thanks,

2981Ken Knight

2982Message 23300 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2983 Msg #2984From: ken knight <[email protected]>2985Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:20 pm2986Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: The One Veda and Two Pigeons

2987--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:2988.2989> > (Dr Ramachandra Rao has presented three2990illustrations2991> of2992> > the adhyajna, adhidaivata and adhyAtma proponents.2993> > These in his presentation are, Sayana, Saunaka and2994> > Yaska respectively. `RgVeda Darshana Volume Two2995> > Interpretations' S K Ramachandra Rao Kalpatharu2996> > Research Academy Publications 1998 )2997> >> Is this book available online?

2998Namaste Professor,2999I would think that unlikely as it is so recent a3000publication. I have copies of several volumes in this3001series through SOAS library in London . If you know3002anybody in Bangalore I think that is the surest place3003to get copies. They are wonderful books for they guide3004you to shruti and do not leave you wading through3005acres of the author's opinions. The only problem for3006some will be that he sometimes does not translate the3007Sanskrit.

3008>this morning was of Brahma SUtras I.1.313009> > ('tat tad upAsanA-yogyatayA cha purushANAm') and3010> > Shankara's commentary.3011>3012> Ken-ji, I am not able to locate this in the Brahma



3013> sutra book. I-1-3014> 31 is omething else.

3015In I.1 31 you will find upAsanA traividhyaAt .3016Unfortunately I dot not have the Sanskrit for3017Shankara's commentary but I do have the English as3018translated by V.H.Date. I had picked up the Sanskrit3019from Dr Rao's final chapter on the Vedantin3020interpretation of the Rgveda and used his reference to3021the BS.3022In the context of this study I had done my best to3023show through YAska's Nirukta how we needed to3024understand the three ways of interpreting the Rks:3025'These three levels, gross, subtle and causal as it3026were, of Adhibhautica, regarding the external world,3027Adhidaivica, regarding divine beings, and Adhyatmica,3028regarding spiritual truths, is a central teaching in3029Vedanta.'3030However, I had also tried to explain the importance of3031division, that it is there for explanation or3032demonstration only. So really there are not three3033'levels' nor 'stages', they are a fluid, coeval event.3034So P.D.Shastri in 'The Doctrine of Maya in the3035Philosophy of Vedanta ' writes, p.11:3036'Still, distinctions ARE (his emphasis) to be made,3037especially when they help us to a clearer3038understanding of that which is really beyond them.'

3039Shankara, in his commentary on I.1.31, counters the3040three-fold interpretations of his opponents and, in my3041book's translation, states:3042'But (as against this view of the VrittikArs) we hold3043that Brahman alone is the topic (of knowledge, and not3044of devotion.)3045Now Dr Rao in the stated chapter on Vedanta's3046interpretation of the Rgveda is looking at various3047threefold distinctions. He quotes the text I gave you3048and writes as quoted in the last posting.3049What is most important is that a few pages later he3050writes, on p.226,3051'The three meanings are not meant to be disparate or3052mutually exclusive. They are integrated in one3053approach, as already menationed; in this approach, the3054three meanings constitute three inter-related3055dimensions ( Hence the expression 'tritaya'). The3056approach involves reconciliation of the adhiyajna, the3057adhi-daivata and the adhyAtma approaches discussed3058above. It is also in accord with the eligibility and3059capability of the devotees (manda-madhyama-uttama)3060each of the meanings being meant for one of the levels3061of the devotees but only in the main. The three3062dimensions are aupplementary and complimentary to each3063other; no level can be disregarded all together.'



3064And he continues with much more explanation.

3065I hope that this helps. If you would like to have more3066of Dr Rao's words maybe we should exchange them3067off-list as his is a long chapter.

3068Ken Knight

3069Message 23302 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 3070 Msg #3071From: ken knight <[email protected]>3072Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:30 pm3073Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Power asnd Deception

3074 Refinance3075 Buy a Home3076 Home Improvement3077 Home Equity Loan3078 Debt Consolidation Loan3079--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:3080> On my own and on behalf of all the readers on this3081> list, I want to3082> bow down and prostrate to that Absolute and its play3083> of mAyA which3084> has brought this Rg Veda exposition by you to this3085> list and through3086> it to posterity!

3087Namaste Professor,3088(Please note, I posted this a while ago and it seems3089to have disappeared. If it appears twice, many3090apologies.)

3091Again, thank you for your personal encouragement and3092help. Although my own errors are obvious there is no3093doubt that this study has been directed, by the powers3094inherent in the Vedas and the all our individual3095teachers upon whose shoulders we stand. Through the3096miracles of cyber-space all the wonderful3097contributions to our various topics are available to3098any passing, curious intellect. How else could we have3099met except through the Net so all salutations to this3100wonderful innovation.3101Not many members contribute but those who do provide3102clues to the next step. It is then a matter of waiting3103for a book to fall open at the right place and then to3104follow as faithfully as possible that which is already3105there in the text. As the mantra states:3106'By Agni Agni is inflamed '3107agninAgniH samidhyate

3108In the next posting I am going to need your knowledge3109of sandhi,



3110Once again,3111Many sincere thanks,

3112Ken Knight

3113Message 23303 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 3114 Msg #3115From: ken knight <[email protected]>3116Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:19 pm3117Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

3118Namaste all,3119Here is the an example of mAyA in the RgVeda.3120Chronologically it is not the first but it examples3121much of what has already been presented in the3122introduction postings.3123In the next posting I will set out all the references3124to mAyA in the RgVeda but, as a first major step into3125studying can we now turn to my personal favourite hymn3126and the one that started off my journey into the3127RgVeda. This is a short hymn in the later collection.

3128RV 10.177. I am going to give it all here but may I3129recommend that your own study takes you to3130www.flaez.ch so that you can trace the meanings in the3131dictionary. However please be careful with Monier3132Williams especially as his definitions are sometimes3133dominated by later thought.3134In accordance with earlier postings I note the names3135of the rishi and the deity along with the metre at the3136outset.3137Mandala 10.1773138Rishi pataNga Deity mAyAbheda3139Metre: 1 JagatI 48 syllables 4 padas 12 syllables3140each31412,3, trishtup 4 padas 11 syllables each

3142pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti3143manasAvipashcitaH |3144samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti3145vedhasaH ||3146pataMgo vAcaM manasA bibharti tAM gandharvo.avadad3147garbheantaH |3148tAM dyotamAnAM svaryaM manISAM Rtasya padekavayo ni3149pAnti ||3150apashyaM gopAmanipadyamAnamA ca parA ca3151pathibhishcarantam |3152sa sadhrIcIH sa viSUcIrvasAna A3153varIvartibhuvaneSvantaH||

3154May I please remind people of my earlier posting, #6,



3155in this series. Remember the three meanings3156Adhibhautic: regarding the external world3157Adhidaivic: regarding divine beings3158Adhiyatmic: regarding spiritual truths3159But remember also that the three meanings are3160distinguished solely for the purpose of explanation.3161In essence the perception of the physical sun as it3162rises, the rising of the sun of inspiration in our3163'inner space' and the all-pervading spiritual sun is3164but a single event known in its fullness or fruition:3165Recall too Yaska's Nirukta; yajnadaivate pushpaphale3166devatadhyAtme vA |

3167Griffith's translation of X.177 is as follows:

31681. The sapient with their spirit and their mind behold3169the Bird adorned with all an Asura's magic might.3170Sages observe him in the ocean's inmost depth: the3171wise disposers seek the station of his rays.31722 The flying Bird bears Speech within his spirit: erst3173the Gandharva in the womb pronounced it:3174And at the seat of sacrifice the sages cherish this3175radiant, heavenly-bright invention.31763 I saw the Herdsman, him who never resteth,3177approaching and departing on his pathways.3178He, clothed in gathered and diffusive splendour,3179within the worlds continually travels.

3180Now may I please ask the Sanskritists on this site for3181help. This is the only hymn in the RgVeda dedicated3182to MAyAbheda. Amazingly, to me, I have found very3183little interest in this hymn in the books I have read.3184Yet to me it is full of possibility; maybe too much3185personal interpretation is going on.

3186How should I translate mAyAbheda when sandhi is3187considered: is this the mAyA with bheda ( difference)3188or with (abheda) ?

3189Now let us take this hymn line by line:

3190'The sapient with their spirit and their mind behold3191the Bird adorned with all an Asura's magic might3192(power) (mAyA).'

3193Here we have mAyA being translated by Griffith as3194'magic might' and here it belongs to the asura. The3195root of asura is 'as' which means 'breath', see also3196'asu' in Monier Williams. Now we need to understand3197that in the RV then asura can be godly or demonic as3198well as being the title for the Supreme Spirit.3199Also we note that power transcends difference. Fire



3200has the power to burn but whether we use it to light a3201ritual candle or torture a victim; whether we use the3202power of speech to praise or blaspheme, is not in the3203domain of that power.

3204I like the use of the word 'sapient' by Griffith for3205it has that quality of special wisdom. Discrimination3206takes us beyond the problems of opposites and duality3207and so the poet says that the sapient perceive this3208power, this magic might, with their heart (Griffith3209uses spirit) and mind.3210Now let us look at the Sanskrit words used here:

3211pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti3212manasAvipashcitaH |

3213hRdA: (with inst.) the heart, the seat of feelings3214and emotions, soul, mind as seat of thought and3215intellectual operations.3216Pashyanti: they see3217manasA: the mind as all mental powers. (Mn vii.6 the3218eye, divine eye) (Whoops. That has not been written3219yet but the idea is in this text.)3220vipashcitaH : expresses difference, distinction or3221away from. discernment, right knowledge. MMW directs3222us to the root vip for vipashcit. This he gives as3223meaning tremble, vibrate.

3224This reminds us of that 'trembling' experienced by the3225seers when they are known as 'vipra'. See Key Words3226posting of this series.

3227So this first line is telling us that the wise3228discriminate and transcend difference when realising3229that Supreme power through their own 'inner eye' of3230the heart/mind.3231What is this bird that is observed by the wise?3232It is the sun as it follows its pathway across the3233heavens.3234But remember that this is the physical sun, the sun of3235inspiration and of direct knowledge and the Supreme3236Light. The wise, through discrimination in mind/heart3237perceive the three levels in the one event, not three3238discrete events that would be the effect of the3239intellect alone, but the directly experienced3240continuum. That is how they perceive the magical3241might, mAyA, of the asura.

3242'Sages observe him in the ocean's inmost depth: the3243wise disposers seek the station of his rays.'3244samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti3245vedhasaH ||



3246In the ocean of the heavens from which the celestial3247waters flow, in the depths of the 'inner space', the3248wise seek out the station, maybe of departure and3249destination, that place of stillness, of the sun's3250rays.

3251We may visualise ourselves seated in a gathering at3252the edge of a forest, faces brushed by a gentle breeze3253as we await the first appearance of the rising sun,3254listening to the quiet chant of the village singer and3255poet. We are being invited to join the company of the3256wise through this hymn..

3257'The flying Bird bears Speech within his spirit: erst3258the Gandharva in the womb pronounced it:3259And at the seat of sacrifice the sages cherish this3260radiant, heavenly-bright invention.'

3261pataMgo vAcaM manasA bibharti tAM gandharvo.avadad3262garbheantaH |3263tAM dyotamAnAM svaryaM manISAM Rtasya padekavayo ni3264pAnti ||

3265Please take the time to make use of www.flaez.ch to3266explore the meanings of the individual words. No3267translation can touch the immense vision being offered3268here for truly the Vedas are infinite, anantaH vai3269vedaH. The Word is borne in the Supreme Sun and hence3270inspirational speech emerges out of the rising sun3271within the sky of our heart/mind. It emerges here,3272shining brighter than the brightest of earth-bound3273jewels, in this seat of sacrifice, in this place of3274fulfilment of that all-pervading and directing power,3275Rta.

3276Hearing the mantras of the Vedas expands dhI, the3277imprisoning walls of the limited view crumble, and the3278mantras bring wisdom to those that see/hear the Sruti.3279They turn the hearer into mantradrasTAs, those who see3280the mantras because we become the mantras and3281experience them not as the sun outside us, nor as the3282sun within us but as the Sun itself.

3283And so the poet who leads our gathering here at the3284edge of the forest, as the warmth of the sun permeates3285our bodies, states his own personal experience as he3286changes from speaking about the wise as other than3287himself :

3288apashyaM gopAmanipadyamAnamA ca parA ca3289pathibhishcarantam |3290sa sadhrIcIH sa viSUcIrvasAna A3291varIvartibhuvaneSvantaH||



3292'I saw the Herdsman, him who never resteth,3293approaching and departing on his pathways.3294He, clothed in gathered and diffusive splendour,3295within the worlds continually travels.'

3296Sound the Sanskrit. Take your time over it, apashyam…I3297saw. The poet himself is here united with his3298ancestors, the great rishis. He had the same direct3299experience of that true light that lights all, he3300discerned the magical power, mAyAh, of the asura3301through the manifesting Word.3302That Word continually is, continually 'travels'.

3303May we all be mantradrasTAs and seek the station of3304its rays.

3305I add the following as my own interpretation…as3306opposed to translation of this hymn. Hopefully you3307will find time to come up with your own.3308'As the sun rises and falls, as though born from the3309ocean, its rays emerge like the cows from the barn3310being directed by the chief Herdsman. I, (the poet)3311observed this. Like a bird it flies, glorious in its3312manifestation. It is the source of speech; deep, loud3313sounds are born in the womb of the sun which arises3314from the unmanifest (symbolised by the ocean as sea3315and sky) and its rays or cows are the words which rise3316and fall, manifesting in and through the creation but3317coming from unseen levels of speech.3318The Gandharva, guardian of the Soma, (the moon which3319reflects the rays to Earth), regulates the flow of the3320words (rays) which terminate well in beautiful speech.3321Those who perceive with discrimination through mind3322and heart behold the whole glory and power of this3323mAyA and its inner meaning.3324Those who have this inner sight are the poets (kavis)3325who can hear and pronounce those deep sounds and whose3326meaning is held in the prescribed ritual action.'3327Message 23304 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 3328 Msg #3329From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>3330Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:38 pm3331Subject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

3332--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>3333wrote:3334> >3335> RV 10.177.3336>



3337> pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti3338> manasAvipashcitaH |3339> samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti3340> vedhasaH ||3341> pataMgo vAcaM manasA bibharti tAM gandharvo.avadad3342> garbheantaH |3343>3344>3345> May I please remind people of my earlier posting, #6,3346> in this series. Remember the three meanings3347> Adhibhautic: regarding the external world3348> Adhidaivic: regarding divine beings3349> Adhiyatmic: regarding spiritual truths3350> But remember also that the three meanings are3351> distinguished solely for the purpose of explanation.3352> In essence the perception of the physical sun as it3353> rises, the rising of the sun of inspiration in our3354> `inner space' and the all-pervading spiritual sun is3355> but a single event known in its fullness or fruition:3356> Recall too Yaska's Nirukta; yajnadaivate pushpaphale3357> devatadhyAtme vA |3358>3359> Griffith's translation of X.177 is as follows:3360>3361> 1. The sapient with their spirit and their mind behold3362> the Bird adorned with all an Asura's magic might.3363> Sages observe him in the ocean's inmost depth: the3364> wise disposers seek the station of his rays.3365> 2 The flying Bird bears Speech within his spirit: erst3366> the Gandharva in the womb pronounced it:3367> And at the seat of sacrifice the sages cherish this3368> radiant, heavenly-bright invention.3369> 3 I saw the Herdsman, him who never resteth,3370> approaching and departing on his pathways.3371> He, clothed in gathered and diffusive splendour,3372> within the worlds continually travels.3373>3374> Now may I please ask the Sanskritists on this site for3375> help. This is the only hymn in the RgVeda dedicated3376> to MAyAbheda. Amazingly, to me, I have found very3377> little interest in this hymn in the books I have read.3378> Yet to me it is full of possibility; maybe too much3379> personal interpretation is going on.

3380Namaste, Ken-ji

3381You have a gold mine here! I shall take time to carefully read3382your post. But here is a quick first reaction.The word 'patamga'3383occurs in the same context in ShatashlokI (shloka No.51, whose first3384two lines I quote below). And you can see Shankara must have had RV3385X.177 in his mind when he composed shloka 51 (Note the identity of3386words):



3387taj jnAH pashyanti buddhyA parama-balavato mAyayAktaM patamgaM3388buddhAvantah samudre pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM vedhasas-taM /

3389tat-jnAH vedhasaH : Knowers of the Self3390pashyanti : discover3391buddhyA : by their wisdom3392patamgaM : the individual soul3393mAyayAktaM : made to appear by mAyA3394pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM :as only a ray, reflected,3395parama-balavataH : of the omnipotent Self3396antaH samudre buddhau : in the ocean of consciousness.

3397Note that the word patamga is interpreted as the individual soul ,3398because it falls off -- the root 'pat' to fall.

3399pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti3400manasAvipashcitaH |3401samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti3402vedhasaH ||

3403vipashcitaH : Those who see it right3404pashyanti : discover3405patamgaM : the individual soul3406asurasya mAyayA aktaM : as made to appear by Asuric mAyA.3407kavayaH : The wise3408vicakSate : see through3409antah samudre : in the ocean of consciousness3410marIcInAM padaM : the unique status of the rays.

3411Now I do not know how to get the "vedhasaH ichanti" into the above3412interpretation.

3413Let me think about it. In the meantime, I suggest you may explore3414whether 'patamga' as 'the individual soul' makes sense in the whole3415hymn 177.

3416PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda3417Profvk

3418Message 23306 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 3419 Msg #3420From: ken knight <[email protected]>3421Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:25 am3422Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

3423--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:3424>>3425> You have a gold mine here!3426And we are the only two miners it would seem. One3427group member said early on that he was not interested3428in going to such depth into this subject so i3429apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get



3430over-excited.3431With Sruti as our light let us proceed.3432It is as if we are two similar birds on the same tree3433both enjoying the fruit with, maybe, Sunderji3434watching.3435As I suggested last post to you, it does seem as if3436some subtle string-pulling is going on and now we have3437the link to your ShatashlokI posting. As with3438yourself, I will have to go through your posting later3439today ( I have to visit a friend who has had MS for 203440years and whose wife died suddenly last year, at the3441age of 51, and on whom he was dependent.)

3442When I first looked at X.177. 'pataMga' was one of the3443mysteries, was it the name of the poet, of the sun, of3444a bird or some flying insect, how does horse become a3445meaning ?3446I settled on a translation as 'falcon'. In this I had3447the image of an individual soul that soared high,3448possessed great speed and would swoop with great3449precision on its food, the Sruti, rather than circle3450gracefully like a vulture which feeds off the dead3451carcasses of others' killings. Of course such imagery3452is located in difference but it was a help at the3453time. 'Falcon' gives the image of an independent3454spirit and this appears in the other hymn that uses3455the word I.163 which I post below, and which is3456clearly the atman-brahman of later understanding:

3457pataMga

3458RV.I.163. rishi: DIrghatamas deity: eulogy of the3459horse metre: trishTup34606. aatmaánaM te mánasaaraád ajaanaam avó divaá3461patáyantam pataMgám |3462shíro apashyam pathíbhiH sugébhir areNúbhir3463jéhamaanam patatrí ||

3464I.163.6 'Thyself from far I recognized in spirit,-a3465Bird that from below flew through the heaven.3466I saw thy head still soaring, striving upward by paths3467unsoiled by dust, pleasant to travel.'

3468I noticed in your post that using your knowledge of3469quantum theory, you have managed to construct a3470'Non-locality Time Slip Device' to break the code on3471my barrier that I had placed in the 4th Century BC for3472our Time Machine.3473As we are two minds in one in this adventure I have3474delighted in following you and offer for some3475additional thoughts the following from the Brahma3476Sutras:



3477In the following, the first reference is to the BS3478itself. The second gives the page number and the line3479in the Vani Vilas Press edition of 'The Work of Sri3480Shankaracharya, pub. 1910. A book that I do not have3481but I give it here in case anyone has access to a3482copy.)3483BS PataMga: II.1.9 Q 300.19 449.16 III.2.93484(Q) 577.11 704.14 III..3.31 667.8 815.10

3485II.1.9 In his commentary Shankara directs us to3486Gaudapada's kArika I.163487'The moment the individual soul is aroused from the3488beginningless slumber of mAyA, that very moment he3489realizes the non-dual condition which is beyond birth,3490dream and sleep.

3491III.2.93492BS states: 'But the same ( soul is awakened); because3493of action, remembrance, Sruti and precept.'3494Shankara's commentary includes:3495'But one soul is distinguished from others in point of3496specific works and knowledge. Perhaps man will not be3497able to make this distinction between soul and soul,3498but God is; just as the flamingo is reported to be3499able to separate milk from water when the two are3500mixed together. Besides, the comparison of the soul3501with a drop of water is not apt at all; because we3502have repeatedly pointed out that the soul is not3503different from the highest Atman; but it is the latter3504which on account of its connection with the upAdhis is3505only metaphorically kn own as the soul. And it is the3506difference in the upAdhis again which accounts for the3507difference between on soul and another.'

3508BS III.3.313509'(The path) cannot (be connected) as a rule to all3510(the vidyAs; for in this way there will be) no3511contradiction; (this is known) from Sruti and3512inference (ie. smRti).'3513Shankara comments: 'We have seen that the path of the3514gods has some meaning with reference to saguna vidyAs3515but has no meaning with reference to the nirguna3516AtmavidyA.' Although the content of the commentary is3517of the journey along the different 'paths' I cannot3518find, not having the Sanskrit, where Shankara uses3519this in the commentary.

3520(Note to me. I must download Sanskrit commentary if3521one is available.)

3522Just fancy Shankara having such a clear love of and



3523knowledge in RV.X.177 when he composed shloka 51.3524Wonderful. Brilliant. Maybe he is sitting in our3525tree, watching with a smile.

3526May I jump further forward to the Siva Sutras with the3527prayer to SaMkara, the Supreme Awareness [SaMkaraM3528caitanyam: Sam (the bliss of revelation of the supreme3529non-dualism) Karoti (brings about ) iti SankaraH ie.3530SaMkara is one who brings about the bliss of the3531revelation of the supreme non-dualism.]3532Jaideva Singh translates the Sloka as:3533'That consciousness of SaMkara is ever visctorious3534which in its wholeness is non-dual in reality though3535having an appearance of duality, from which the class3536of Rudra and Kshetrajna springs and in which it comes3537to rest, which is the fundamental Reality ( yat3538tattvam), from which bursts forth into view the3539universe, whose form is this universe, from whose3540unimpeded Free Will ever leaps forth his divine power3541which is a mass of bliss, bringing about the3542unsurpassed, immortal spanda piciple (the primal3543creative pulsation).'

3544I think we are going to have to stay close together in3545this journey into the gold mine as I keep seeing3546diamonds in the walls.

3547Thank you for your good company

3548Ken Knight

3549>And you can see Shankara3550> must have had RV3551> X.177 in his mind when he composed shloka 51 (Note3552> the identity of3553> words):3554>3555> taj jnAH pashyanti buddhyA parama-balavato3556> mAyayAktaM patamgaM3557> buddhAvantah samudre pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM3558> vedhasas-taM /3559>3560> tat-jnAH vedhasaH : Knowers of the Self3561> pashyanti : discover3562> buddhyA : by their wisdom3563> patamgaM : the individual soul3564> mAyayAktaM : made to appear by mAyA3565> pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM :as only a ray,



3566> reflected,3567> parama-balavataH : of the omnipotent Self3568> antaH samudre buddhau : in the ocean of3569> consciousness.3570>3571> Note that the word patamga is interpreted as the3572> individual soul ,3573> because it falls off -- the root 'pat' to fall.3574>3575> pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti3576> manasAvipashcitaH |3577> samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate3578> marIcInAmpadamichanti3579> vedhasaH ||3580>3581> vipashcitaH : Those who see it right3582> pashyanti : discover3583> patamgaM : the individual soul3584> asurasya mAyayA aktaM : as made to appear by Asuric3585> mAyA.3586> kavayaH : The wise3587> vicakSate : see through3588> antah samudre : in the ocean of consciousness3589> marIcInAM padaM : the unique status of the rays.3590>3591> Now I do not know how to get the "vedhasaH ichanti"3592> into the above3593> interpretation.3594>3595> Let me think about it. In the meantime, I suggest3596> you may explore3597> whether 'patamga' as 'the individual soul' makes3598> sense in the whole3599> hymn 177.3600>3601> PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda profvk ========================================================Message 23309 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:46 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

Namaste Kenji,

Only watching in awe!

In your first posting, you do mention Patanga as the Rishiof the Hymn.

Shankara's Complete Works are online at URL:



http://www.brahmasutra.iitk.ac.in/framepage.htm

Regards,

Sunder

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:> --- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@y...> wrote:>> When I first looked at X.177. 'pataMga' was one of the> mysteries, was it the name of the poet, of the sun, of> a bird or some flying insect, how does horse become a> meaning ?

>> (Note to me. I must download Sanskrit commentary if> one is available.)

Message 23316 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Dennis Waite" <[email protected]>Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:06 pmSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

Dear Ken,

You said:"And we are the only two miners it would seem. Onegroup member said early on that he was not interestedin going to such depth into this subject so iapologise if this is getting too detailed but I do getover-excited."

You are making me feel guilty! The problem for me is that there is so muchhere. In order to do justice to the topic, each of your main posts wouldrequire many hours of study with dictionaries and websites open. I am simplyskimming the academic bits and enjoying your writing and enthusiasm. I trulyhope that there are others apart from Profvk, Sunderji and Adiji who aregiving your posts the attention that they deserve. Could we not have somecomments from one or two of the silent majority to reassure us that thereare other appreciative eyes and ears out there and in recognition of themonths of effort that Ken must have put into this?

Best wishes,

DennisMessage 23319 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #



From: "Peter M" <[email protected]>Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:11 pmSubject: RE: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

Dear Ken,

The post from Dennis, below, has prompted me to speak up - as I am one ofthe silent majority and also a new member of just one week. Like Dennis, Ivery much enjoy the enthusiasm that thrills through your every post. I alsoappreciate the time and knowledge required to bring such a wealth ofmaterial together.

I am sure the weakness is mine when I say that I do not always follow whatis the underlying issue you are attempting to bring to the surface in yourmany references and inclusions of material, verses and translations in eachmail. There is so much in each mail that it would take me a week study eachone fully, and then I would only be scratching the surface, I suspect. So,a little guidance as to your primary focus and aim in each mail would helpme to know where best to focus my attention and to appreciate what parts arebackground context. But that may just be me, as I said above.

Many thanks for what you write and the time you give to doing so.

Best wishes,

Peter

-----Original Message-----From: Dennis Waite [mailto:[email protected]]Sent: 18 June 2004 22:06To: [email protected]: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

Dear Ken,

You said:"And we are the only two miners it would seem. Onegroup member said early on that he was not interestedin going to such depth into this subject so iapologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get



over-excited."

You are making me feel guilty! The problem for me is that there is so muchhere. In order to do justice to the topic, each of your main posts wouldrequire many hours of study with dictionaries and websites open. I am simplyskimming the academic bits and enjoying your writing and enthusiasm. I trulyhope that there are others apart from Profvk, Sunderji and Adiji who aregiving your posts the attention that they deserve. Could we not have somecomments from one or two of the silent majority to reassure us that thereare other appreciative eyes and ears out there and in recognition of themonths of effort that Ken must have put into this?

Best wishes,

Dennis

Message 23322 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:33 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

--- Dennis Waite <[email protected]> wrote:>> You are making me feel guilty!

Good Morning Dennis,I am feeling guilty for making you feel guilty. WeEnglish are World Champions at feeling guilty.

I am also feeling guilty because today is NationalQuiet Day here in the UK....we used to have a Sabbathbut now we have one quiet day a year and soon it willbe one in the decade.........and I should be on my wayto Southwark Cathedral for a meditation time.

So I am typing quietly while mentally singing therefrain from The Incredible String Band's song:'Maya, Maya, all this world is but a play, be thou thejoyful player.'They don't sing them like that anymore!!!!

Now, people keep referring to the amount of work putinto these posts. There is not much work involved as Ilove to study in my own peculiar way. Also, I am theoriginal, anti-social, grumpy old man. 14 years ago,at the age of 50, I declared to family and friendsthat henceforth I would go to one party a year andspend only a little time in social chit-chat abouthouse prices, holidays and babies at family and othergatherings.Books, quiet reflection, being with my wife and



playing with our dog is bliss; parties are not.

Thanks for your mail which initiated Peter's. As ateacher, I do not mean that as a 'spiritual teacher',I work best when people ask questions and I hope thatat some stage this will happen. Also, I know that outthere in cyber space there are people who will havethe insight to answer questions where I fail. I amjust a sounding board.

Finally on the 'guilty theme' I did feel greatuncertainty about taking on this subject in theawareness of the South Asian core membership of thisgroup. I respect the tradition that would bar me fromsuch a study but have taken my authority to go aheadfirstly from Anandamayee Ma and secondly from astrange coincidence a few years ago that I will notdetail here now.

Finally, finally, the Rgveda itself.The hymns come out of the deepest sounds in theuniverse which the rishis sought out. My words skimthe surface, the rishis plunge into the depths and itis only through their words that we can dive deep:RV IV.50.1

yás tastámbha sáhasaa ví jmó ántaan bR'haspátistriSadhasthó ráveNa |tám pratnaása R'Sayo diídhyaanaaH puró vípraa dadhiremandrájihvam ||

'Him who with might hath propped earth's ends, whositteth in threefold seat, Brhaspati, with thunder,Him of the pleasant tongue have ancient sages,deep-thinking, holy singers, set before them.'

Have a happy National Quiet Day,

KenMessage 23323 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: Bob Freedman <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:07 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

Namaste,

I am not a miner; perhaps I'm more like the canary that expires fromsomething powerful but unseen/unknown. At the same time I sense thatsomething significant is going on.



Kenji, I read the posts and often find a word or phrase that providessome illumination--although I can't find the quotation, I remember thatseveral ji's have said that if someone can find one word of illuminationin [an essay] then the information is justified. As for the rest, Ihave a special "Maya in the Vedas folder" for all of your posts, and Iwill return to them as time allows. For those who don't keep such afile, they will be able to search for the topic in the archives.

Therefore, I encourage you not to water-down your posts. They arepacked with valuable information--and they seem elegant and poetic.

Thank you so much for providing this information.

One of the silent majority,

Bob Freedman

Peter M wrote:> Dear Ken,>>>> The post from Dennis, below, has prompted me to speak up - as I am one of> the silent majority>> You said:> "And we are the only two miners it would seem. One> group member said early on that he was not interested> in going to such depth into this subject so i> apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get> over-excited."

Message 23324 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:36 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

--- Bob Freedman <[email protected]> wrote:> At the same> time I sense that> something significant is going on.

Namaste Bob,That's the great thing about life isn't it? The day wefind out what's going on you can be sure ignorance iswaiting with its cloak so it's probably better that westay with the sense of mystery.



Dennis having encouraged the 'silent majority' meansthe tree is getting quite populated.

Enjoy the fruits,

Ken Knight

>> Kenji, I read the posts and often find a word or> phrase that provides> some illumination--although I can't find the> quotation, I remember that> several ji's have said that if someone can find one> word of illumination> in [an essay] then the information is justified. As> for the rest, I> have a special "Maya in the Vedas folder" for all of> your posts, and I> will return to them as time allows. For those who> don't keep such a> file, they will be able to search for the topic in> the archives.>> Therefore, I encourage you not to water-down your> posts. They are> packed with valuable information--and they seem> elegant and poetic.>> Thank you so much for providing this information.>> One of the silent majority,>> Bob Freedman>>>>> Peter M wrote:> > Dear Ken,> >> >> >> > The post from Dennis, below, has prompted me to> speak up - as I am one of> > the silent majority> >> > You said:> > "And we are the only two miners it would seem.> One> > group member said early on that he was not> interested> > in going to such depth into this subject so i



> > apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do> get> > over-excited.">>

Message 23325 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:05 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ Individual Soul

Namaste all,

Professor Krishnamurthy had asked me to consider theuse of pataMga as 'the individual soul' in thisamazing hymn. As I considered his direction I foundmyself returning to old questions of mine, 'Did ourVedic ancestors have a concept of an individual soulthat is recognisable within our own ideas?' Andsecondly, 'How does an individual soul fit intonon-dual philosophies?'The second is for other studies but I thought that itwould be useful to present some of conceptsidentifiable in the Vedic hymns relevant to that firstquestion. Again, I am giving you information that onlyglimpses the immensity of the Vedic vision. Your owninterest can take you further.

Individual soul

I wonder if the people of the Vedic times had such aconcept?

In the West, with our dominant dualistic heritage, wecommonly envisage, at best, an individual particle oflight or drop of water in an all-pervading light orocean. Even those who think they are teaching advaitaare in fact followers of Ramanuja…….. although theyprobably never have heard of him. As Shankara writes,'Besides, the comparison of the soul with a drop ofwater is not apt at all; because we have repeatedlypointed out that the soul is not different from thehighest Atman; but it is the latter which on accountof its connection with the upAdhis is onlymetaphorically known as the soul. ' (See last postingon pataMga)

I think that this is closer to the context of theVedic vision. When I read the Rgveda I do not get theimpression of a people seeking rescue from anoppressive, disgusting physical environment and



transportation to a garden of everlasting delight. Asstated earlier, they see and feel an all-pervadingpower of such immensity and mystery that they want tojoin in with the will of that power: Hence the notionof 'kratu', 'will power,' but more on that later. Theyhave an understanding of the human psyche and usewords such as manas, hRd, citta, dhI and kratu.(incidentally, I think a very worthwhile study wouldbe of the verbal roots jIv, tan,cit, man, jnA, vid anddhi used in the Vedic context and recorded by Panini.If anyone has the time and interest maybe we could dothis together off-list some time.)

However when we look for an individual soul as weknow it I am not sure that it is there. For example,when they use the word 'asu' it has to do with thatvitality in the individual that releases the universalpower manifesting through the gods. This is linkedwith the jiva. Together they overcome the holdingpower of the night and so are linked with Dawn, Usha:RV I 113 16úd iirdhvaM jiivó ásur na aágaad ápa praágaat táma aájyótir eti |aáraik pánthaaM yaátave suúryaayaáganma yátrapratiránta aáyuH ||

'Arise! the breath (asu), the life (jIva), again hathreached us: darkness hath passed away and lightapproacheth.She, for the Sun, hath left a path to travel, we havearrived where men prolong existence.'

RV. I. 140. 7,8sá saMstíro viSTíraH sáM gRbhaayati jaanánn evájaanatiír nítya aá shaye |púnar vardhante ápi yanti devyàm anyád várpaH pitróHkRNvate sácaa ||

'Now covered, now displayed he grasps as one who knowshis resting-place in those who know him well.A second time they wax and gather Godlike power, andblending both together change their Parents' form.'

tám agrúvaH keshíniiH sáM hí rebhirá uurdhvaás tasthurmamrúSiiH praáyáve púnaH |taásaaM jaraám pramuñcánn eti naánadad ásum páraMjanáyañ jiivám ástRtam ||

'The maidens with long, tresses hold him in embrace;dead, they rise up again to meet the Living One.Releasing them from age with a loud roar he comes,filling them with new spirit (asu), living (jIva),unsubdued.'



This renewal…......the sun disappears beneath thehorizon and the reappears…......occurs in the tales ofthe Rbhus. ( I keep referring to these and you willfind out more about them and their magic power lateron). There is a term 'vayas' for the life force of theindividual which is governed by another power in alifetime, (ayu), which controls the number of breathsof a lifetime .......to put it into its nearestwestern context. So we read:

RV.111.1tákSan ráthaM suvR'taM vidmanaápasas tákSan háriiindravaáhaa vR'SaNvasuu |tákSan pitR'bhyaam Rbhávo yúvad váyas tákSanvatsaáya maatáraM sacaabhúvam ||

'Working with skill they wrought the lightly rollingcar: they wrought the Bays who bear Indra and bringgreat gifts.The Rbhus for their Parents made life (vayas) youngagain; and fashioned for the calf a mother by itsside.'

But superior to all these is breath, prANa. Just as'That One breathed, without breath'…NasadIya sUkta ifyou remember the earlier postings….. so that breathbreathes in us.

RV X 59.6ásuniite púnar asmaásu cákSuH púnaH praaNám ihá nodhehi bhógam |jyók pashyema suúryam uccárantam ánumate mRLáyaa naHsvastí ||

'Give us our sight again, O Asuniti, give us again ourbreath (prANa) and our enjoyment.Long may we look upon the Sun uprising; O Anumati,favour thou and bless us.'

Notice 'Anumati' there and the verbal root 'an' whichgives us the 'breath' in Atman.

Atman in the Rgveda is often translated as 'spirit'because of its basis in breath, and this brings us toa crucial verse dedicated to the Sun, sUrya:

RV.115.1citráM devaánaam úd agaad ániikaM cákSur mitrásyaváruNasyaagnéH aápraa | dyaávaapRthivií antárikSaMsuúrya aatmaá jágatas tasthúSash ca ||

'The brilliant presence of the Gods hath risen, the



eye of Mitra, Varuna and Agni.The soul(AtmA) of all that moveth not or moveth, theSun hath filled the air (AtmA) and earth and heaven.'

RV. VII. 101.6sá retodhaá vRSabháH sháshvatiinaaM tásminn aatmaájágatas tasthúSash ca |tán ma Rtám paatu shatáshaaradaaya yuuyám paatasvastíbhiH sádaa naH ||

'He is the Bull of all, and their impregnator, heholds the life (AtmA) of all things fixed and moving.May this rite save me till my hundredth autumn.Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.'

So this AtmA, in the Rigveda is both the universal andthe individual essence. If we jump forward to theUpanishads we can find evidence for this non-dual AtmAevolving into a reincarnating, individual Atman.(Br.Up.IV.4.3, also have a look at Ch. Up. VIII.12.1,especially if you have Shankara's commentary which isvery interesting on this topic but will take us intothat other discussion arising from my second questionabove.)

So I am left with the same question as I have had forsome time, 'Did our Vedic ancestors have a concept ofthe individual soul as we have inherited it from laterthought.?' My gut-feeling is that they did not as theywere more of a communal society than we are today inour urbanised communities. In these the individualtries to take the universal power of life to achievepersonal goals rather than serve the universal.'Self-empowerment' books fill the shelves of ourbookshops but they, alas, useful as they are for atime result in an individual mAyA that is really afalse appearance, an upAdhi.

Ken Knight

Message 23326 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:35 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:> Let me think about it. In the meantime, I suggest> you may explore> whether 'patamga' as 'the individual soul' makes> sense in the whole



> hymn 177.

Namaste Professor,This took me off in two directions. One resulted inthe posting that I have just made. The second had mediving into Panini's Dhattupatha which produced acouple of interesting leads. I will look further atthat tomorrow.On the way, however, I did come across anothertranslation of X.177. It is by Swami Sharvananda fromthe collection of essays 'The Cultural Heritage ofIndia' pub.1937 His essay is entitled 'The Vedas andtheir Religious Teachings. In this is a sub-section'Personal and Impersonal Godhead and Soul.'

Just as we have done he starts with the nAsadIya andpurusha sUktas and then coincidentally goes toX.177....so we must be doing something right with thisstudy.His translation is clumsy but shows the influence oflater thoughts on reincarnation. The following is adirect quote with his brackets:

'The sages in their minds realise that the Bird (all-pervasive God) is covered up by the mAyA of themighty One. The seers describe it as happening in theOcean (infinity of being); they all feel desirous toreach the supreme Abode of life.....I saw the herdsman(individual soul) who never falls, but sometimes nearand sometimes far, is traversing various paths.Sometimes he wears many clothes together and sometimeshe puts them on severally, and thus he is going andcoming to this world again and again.'

There's another point of view for you.After following the same path as us into RV I.164 andthe two birds he concludes that 'These passagesclearly indicate that the individual soul is immortaland transmigrates in various ways to different planesof existence. Further, the identity of the individualsoul with the cosmic spirit has been revealed in twowell known hymns...'He goes on to refer to RV.IV.26. 1-2 and RV. X. 125.3.

I would like to challenge some of his conclusions asthey are based in later development in the Upanishads,especially as he writes of the delusory power of mAyAin the Rgveda, but I thought that a different 'voice'should be heard here.

More anon.



Ken KnightMessage 23327 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Lady Joyce" <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:56 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] June topic: The One Veda

Kenji wrote...

But if we could but hear the pranava shabda......

http://www.omshaantih.com/Photogallery/Feathers/Warbler/Pranava%20shabda.htm

Love,Joyce

Message 23328 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "asridhar19" <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:12 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ Individual Soul

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:> Namaste all,>> Individual soul>> I wonder if the people of the Vedic times had such a> concept?>Namaste Kenji and All

Just pondering about this question from far lower levels where mythinking unfortunately stands today.

From an individual stand point, what is unique to the individual isnot probably something like the *soul*. The non-existent thing calledthe *Ahamkara* attributes to itself the perceptions of the senses,actionsof the sense organs etc.? These equipments or the body, mind,intellect equipment act energised in the precense of *that* and*that* is all pervading, omniscient, of the nature of existence,consciousness and bliss?Thus what *animates* this body ( In body, I am including the causalbody or the bundle of vasanas that acquire the appropriate subtle andgross bodies as appropriate) and makes it think, act etc., is notsome individual soul with special and unique charactersitics andunique animating powers but *that* or *brahman* that pervades all andis present in equal and impartial measure in everything- moving andunmoving.

Typical analogy one comes across is one electricity principle that



ligths bulbs, heats heaters, rotates fan blades- each equipment madeto work according to its nature. It is not as if each of theseequipments have an individualised powerer that makes them function ina certain way though, if they had a ego, the ego would attributelighting up, providing air etc. to itself depending on whichequipment it is in.

Many thousand namaskarams to allSridhar

Message 23330 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:44 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ anandamayee

Namaste all,By now those who have seen previous postings will havenoted my acknowledgement of the importance of SriAnandamayee in my life. This morning I picked my waythrough masses of opened books, littering all tables,to bookshelves where an unopened book might producesome relevant insight. My eyes chose a little booksurrounded by fat books; it is a collection ofdiscourses by Anandamayee. The very first discourse isnot only generally relevant to our discussions on thissite, or anywhere else, but it has precise relevanceto the hymn dedicated to mAyAbheda and how the wiseuse discrimination. I am posting it all as it is avaluable reminder of what we are about:

Concerning the value of religious and philosophicaldiscourses. Mataji said:

'By listening repeatedly to discussions and discourseson topics of this kind, the path to first-handknowledge of what has been heard gradually opens out.You know, it is as when water uninterruptedly drippingon a stone finally makes a hole in it, and then aflood may suddenly surge through, which will bringEnlightenment.

Be it the perusal of Sacred Texts, listening toreligious discourses, engaging in kirtana (singing ofpraise songs) God must be the alpha and omega ofwhatever is done. When reading, read about Him, whentalking, talk of Him and when singing, sing Hispraises. These three practices are intrinsically thesame; but because people respond differently. the sameis expressed in three different ways to suit eachperson's temperament and capacity for assimilation.Essentially there is only He and He alone, although



everyone has his own individual path that leads toHim. What is the right path for each, depends on hispersonal predilection, based on the specific characterof his inner qualifications.

Take for instance the study of Vedanta. Some seekersbecome completely drowned in it, just as others may solose themselves in kirtana as to fall into a trance. Astudent of Vedanta may become wholly absorbed in histexts, even more so than the one who gets carried awayby kirtana. According to one's specific line ofapproach, one will be able to achieve fullconcentration through the study of a particularScripture, or by some other means.

First comes listening, then reflection, and last ofall the translation into action of what has been heardand pondered over. This is why one has first of all tolisten, so that later on each may be able to selectVedanta or kirtana or whatever else be in his ownline.

Have you never come across people making light ofkirtana, saying, "What is there to be gained by it ?"Nevertheless, after listening to it for some length oftime, they actually develop a liking for it.Therefore, one must listen before one can reflect, andthen later, what has been heard and reflected uponwill take shape in action suited to the personconcerned. To listen to discourses on God or Truth iscertainly beneficial, provided one does not allowoneself to be moved by a spirit of fault-finding ordisparagement, should there be differences of outlookto one's own. To find fault with others createsobstacles for everyone all around: for him whocriticizes, for him who is blamed, as well as forthose who listen to the criticism. Whereas, what issaid in a spirit of appreciation is fruitful toeverybody. For only where there is no question ofregarding anything as inferior or blameworthy can onecall it satsang.

Who is known as a Vaishnava? One who sees Vishnueverywhere. And as a SAkta? One who beholds the GreatMother, and nothing save Her. In truth, all thevarious ways of thought spring from one common source.Who then is to be blamed, who to be reviled orsuppressed? All are equal in essence.

Thou art Mother, Thou art Father,Thou art Friend and Thou art Master,Truly, Thou art all in all.Every name is Thy Name,



Every quality Thy Quality,Every form Thy Form indeed.

Yet He is also where no forms exist, as pureunmanifested Being; all depends on one's avenue ofapproach.Is it not said that what is viewed by the Saivas asthe Supreme (parama) Siva, and by those who inquireinto the Self, as the One Self is none other than theBrahman Itself? In reality there is no contradiction ,so long as the slightest difference is perceived, evenby a hair's breadth, how can one speak of the state ofPure Being?For this reason, no matter what path anyone maychoose, it is That.Vedanta actually means the end of difference andnon-difference. (Anandamayee only spoke Bengali andshe is here playing with Bengali in which the lettersB and V sound alike. Hence Veda can sound like Bhedawhich, as we know from RV X. 177, means 'difference'.As anta means 'end' she constructs Vedanta as the 'endof difference.')

While engaging in sAdhanA one must concentrate in asingle direction; but after it has been completed,what comes then? The cessation of difference,distinction and disagreement. Differences indeed existon the path, but how can there be difference of Goal?'

For Adiji with her little gems...I hope you like that,you are not forgotten,Ken Knight

Message 23331 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:54 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ Individual Soul

--- asridhar19 <[email protected]> wrote:>> From an individual stand point, what is unique to> the individual is> not probably something like the *soul*. The> non-existent thing called> the *Ahamkara* attributes to itself the perceptions> of the senses,> actionsof the sense organs etc.? These equipments or> the body, mind,> intellect equipment act energised in the precense of> *that* and> *that* is all pervading, omniscient, of the nature



> of existence,> consciousness and bliss?

Namaste Sridhar,I have been waiting for you to turn up, now we muststir Madhava from his silence.You are correct in what you say but may we lose theword 'ego' for it is a mongrel of an expression. Keepto ahaMkAra. For those who are not familiar with theword it means the 'Aham', feeling of existence,attached to the action. It dominates the days from themoment we wake up and we say 'I like..' or 'I don'tlike'. It is the result of our claim to be the 'doer'or the action or the feeling.Our question about the individual Self is really inthe area of the Aham, which we may translate as 'Iam'.There is an excellent paper on this by David Godmanwho is a Ramana devotee. You can Google it quiteeasily.When the other posting on this site talk about 'GrandIllumination' then I was reminded of the following. Itis now relevant to your posting as well.I downloaded it from the Internet and it is part of, Ithink, a Dutchman's site. This man had something to dowith the Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math and he quotesthe answer to a question about transcendentalexperiences and the feeling of stillness or of thetouch and taste of Aham. It is also relevant to therecent discussion on Purnamidam:

The Shankaracharya said:'…………………………… as for the touch of Aham, the taste ofAham – it is a misunderstanding of the terms.Aham and Idam constitute this creation. Aham is Sat,Chit and Ananda. Aham contains everything thatreflects Sat, Chit and Ananda through elements,essences, sensations, thinking and feeling. Aham isstil1, although it provides all the energies necessaryfor the Idam and its multifarious forms of thiscreation to exist, provides all sensations through theelements and their qualities, and all thinking andfeeling.

To know anything, to think about anything is to knowand think of Idam. It is done by Aham. When oneexperiences the beauty of vision or the essence ofform and colour or touch and taste one can do so onlyfrom Idam. One never sees or touches or tastes theAham. To be Aham is to be still. One can't touch it.Aham is beyond experience because it is theexperiencer. The eyes see beauty, but who does really



feel the bliss of beauty? Eyes are instruments and thereal witness of beauty and bliss is the Al-tam, theAtman, which provides the power to see. If that forceis missing eyes can't see. They see through the lightof Atman. Same applies to all organs of senses, organsof action and also the Antahkarana, with manas,buddhi, chitta and ahankara. Consciousness is notmovement, Consciousness knows itself, and knowseverything through these agencies. When it knowsItself then no Idam will be there. . It is all instillness. So the taste of Aham or touch of Aham is amistake in terms. It is existence, consciousness orbliss itself."

That is a clear statement of the advaitin view,

Ken Knight

> Thus what *animates* this body ( In body, I am> including the causal> body or the bundle of vasanas that acquire the> appropriate subtle and> gross bodies as appropriate) and makes it think, act> etc., is not> some individual soul with special and unique> charactersitics and> unique animating powers but *that* or *brahman* that> pervades all and> is present in equal and impartial measure in> everything- moving and> unmoving.>> Typical analogy one comes across is one electricity> principle that> ligths bulbs, heats heaters, rotates fan blades-> each equipment made> to work according to its nature. It is not as if> each of these> equipments have an individualised powerer that makes> them function in> a certain way though, if they had a ego, the ego> would attribute> lighting up, providing air etc. to itself depending> on which> equipment it is in.>> Many thousand namaskarams to all> Sridhar>>



Message 23334 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:48 pmSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>wrote:>There's another point of view for you.> After following the same path as us into RV I.164 and> the two birds he concludes that 'These passages> clearly indicate that the individual soul is immortal> and transmigrates in various ways to different planes> of existence. Further, the identity of the individual> soul with the cosmic spirit has been revealed in two> well known hymns...'> He goes on to refer to RV.IV.26. 1-2 and RV. X. 125.3.> =====

Namaste Ken-ji,

Another reference that should draw attention is : RV 6:47:18

" indro mAyAbhiH pururUpa Iyate " , [Indra goes about in many formsby his mayas (magical powers).]

which is also repeated in Brihadaranyaka upanishad 2:5:19

(Gaudapada cites this also in Karika 3:24).

[Rishi Vamadeva of the 4th Mandala of Rigveda refers torepeated births until the Self is realized.]

I also wonder if 'Maya in the Vedas' need to be limited tothe Samhita section only, or should include upanishads also.

Regards,

SunderMessage 23335 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "asridhar19" <[email protected]>Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:05 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ Individual Soul

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:> --- asridhar19 <asridhar19@y...> wrote:>> Namaste Sridhar,

> Aham is beyond experience because it is the



> experiencer. The eyes see beauty, but who does really> feel the bliss of beauty? Eyes are instruments and the> real witness of beauty and bliss is the Al-tam, the> Atman, which provides the power to see. If that force> is missing eyes can't see. They see through the light> of Atman. Same applies to all organs of senses, organs> of action and also the Antahkarana, with manas,> buddhi, chitta and ahankara. Consciousness is not> movement, Consciousness knows itself, and knows> everything through these agencies. When it knows> Itself then no Idam will be there. . It is all in> stillness. So the taste of Aham or touch of Aham is a> mistake in terms. It is existence, consciousness or> bliss itself.">> That is a clear statement of the advaitin view,>>> Ken Knight>>Namaste KenjiMy salutations to the felicity with which you have illuminated thethread underlying grand illumination', 'Purnamidam' and 'Maya inVedas'.Madhavaji seems very busy with his work and service activities. Willsee if I can draw him in.My understanding of 'Ahamkara' just went up a few notches. It is athrilling feeling.On the question of Soul, at a language level I am trying tounderstand if what is called the soul does really have an equivalentin Advaita as a word or concept. My feeling is that the concept ofkArana Sharira or Causal body does away with the posiibility of anindividualized soul with its own 'energising agent', so to say,moving from body to body.If this is a digression would seek your valuable guidance offlist.Many pranams to all AdvaitinsSridhar

Message 23336 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:58 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ last look for now

Namaste All,This arises from Professor Krishnamurthy's picking upon the different meanings of pataMga and the root'pat.'

Root Pat:While it has the meaning of 'falling' it also has the



opposite as 'soaring' so the Sun appears to rise andset, to soar and fall.In our use of language we tend to emphasize a singlemeaning when there are always two which at firstappear to be opposites, for example, 'under' thebridge contains the meaning 'over' the river when wesee the larger picture. 'Under' cannot be separatedfrom 'over'.Essentially 'pat' has to do with the power ofmovement.This hymn (X 177)is dedicated to mAyAbheda which Iwill translate as the magical power of difference, themovement from one into many without change, as itwere.Grounding our interpretation in YAska then we rememberthe adhyajna, adhidaivata and adhyAtma levels for thepurposes of understanding.At the universal level pataMga is the Sun, theuniversal soul as it were, which 'continuallytravels'. That is, it is the all-pervading,ever-present power of That One, Tad Ekam , that whilebreathless, breathes and through whose heat, tapas,the first germ of mind appears.' While still it movesfaster than all others'. Isha Up. 4

At the individual level it is pataMga, that whichcontinually travels but 'falls', appearing anddisappearing above and below the dividing line of thehorizon, birth and death, the magical power ofappearance and disappearance.Those that observe this progression to and from the'station' of the rays of the sun are able todiscriminate the non-difference in the difference,they realise the universal in the individual. This iswhat the ancient seers spoke and the poet PataMgarealised, 'his' identity in the universal Bird,PataMga, that appeared to him as the sun passingthrough the sky and disappearing beneath the horizon.

This power of discrimination, through heart and mind,is cherished through the words of the hymn that arenow used in this place of ritual. Those words of oursingers themselves appear and disappear, emerging outof the depths of the pranava shabda, Om, the eternal,differentiating in the inner vision of the poet andsung here in this place of ritual. Like the birds theysoar and fall, they also are pataMga., falcons in thebreaths of the singers.

……………………This next bit may not be of interest generallyalthough it seeks to find an etymologicalunderstanding of 'pataMga'..



In the Western, urbanised societies we are boundthrough our language to names and forms especiallythrough a preference for nouns. Not all societies workin this way. There is an interesting film produced byan anthropologist in Africa. He found that theindigenous people in a village were unable 'see' stillpictures and recognise the forms in them. But whenthey saw a movie of village chickens they wereimmediately delighted by them and called out the nameswhen they recognised the movement of the flutteringbirds.So now, when I look across the road at a tree in thefield, I may choose to see a fixed form which I name'tree' or be aware of it as a continually changing'being' emerging out of and into the five naturalelements. Such a view is more in keeping with theword 'emanation' rather than 'creation' which wenormally use.Therefore we may see a cow as 'moving into the field'so that its name incorporates this fact of movementand continual change.So when we look etymologically at Sanskrit words weoften find that the words have verbal roots based in'going' or 'moving'.

Here is a stanza which is all about movement, it isfrom RV. I.154.6 on the three steps of Vishnu, wefind the word 'gámadhyai' which has the verbal root,dhattu is the Sanskrit for this, of 'gam'.

Remembering the double-edge to words this means 'goingaway' from and 'approaching' When we produce a nounfrom this verbal root we get 'gata', gone away,departed, dead or 'gati', gait or deportment.taá vaaM vaástuuny ushmasi gámadhyai yátra gaávobhuúrishRÑgaa ayaásaH |átraáha tád urugaayásya vR'SNaH paramám padám ávabhaati bhuúri ||

'Fain would we go unto your dwelling-places wherethere are many-horned and nimble oxen,For mightily, there, shineth down upon us thewidely-striding Bull's sublimest mansion.'

As Professor Krishnamurthy has stated, pataMga has theverbal root of 'pat'. In later writings this comes toinclude a 'moral fall' in its meanings but in theRgveda it is related to the falcon and its speedyfalling and soaring, or alighting, dependent upon itscontext. Hence:RV.I.163. rishi: DIrghatamas deity: eulogy of thehorse metre: trishTup6. aatmaánaM te mánasaaraád ajaanaam avó divaá



patáyantam pataMgám |shíro apashyam pathíbhiH sugébhir areNúbhirjéhamaanam patatrí ||

'Thyself from far I recognized in spirit,-a Bird thatfrom below flew through the heaven.I saw thy head still soaring, striving upward by pathsunsoiled by dust, pleasant to travel.'

In my own study I like to have a look at Panini'sDhattupatha in which he contemplates these verbalroots and then gives a dhattvartha to try to bring outthe meaning. So I looked up 'pata' and he gives, inthe ubhayataH voice 'gatau (va)'Not surprisingly we are immediately into the root'gam' see above. We may like to reflect a little onthe 'go' 'gau' (cow) and the 'gopam' (herdsman) inX177.

This game (that is a pun for those still with me) cango on for ever. So I must end with an example of gatamin a Sloka that I think is relevant to our hymm 177although it is from the Bhagavad Gita:VII.18udArAH sarva evAitanoble indeed are all these

jnAnI tvAtmaiva me matam |but the man of wisdom is thought to be my very Self

AsTitaH sa hi yukAtmAHe, indeed, whose mind is steadfast,

mAm evAnuttamAM gatim ||Abides in Me, the Supreme Goal (ie. The source anddestination of all 'going'.)

Ken Knight

Message 23337 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:13 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177

--- Sunder Hattangadi <[email protected]> wrote:>> Another reference that should draw attention> is : RV 6:47:18



>> " indro mAyAbhiH pururUpa Iyate " , [Indra goes> about in many forms> by his mayas (magical powers).]

Namaste Sunderji,You are jumping ahead of me. I had intended using thisone after a look at the Rbhus but will now post on itnext. Maybe I will put in a general posting thatlists all the uses of mAyA in the Rgveda before we gomuch further

> [Rishi Vamadeva of the 4th Mandala of Rigveda> refers to> repeated births until the Self is realized.]

Can you please be a bit more specific on this one ashe is responsible for all 58 sUktas. Or is this anunderlying theme do you think?I think that X.177 sets the matter out quite clearlythat those with discrimination realise the cycle ofbirth and death, a coming and going. The mAyAbheda,maybe, is appearance only.It all depends if we can hear the hymns followingYaska's directions.>> I also wonder if 'Maya in the Vedas' need to> be limited to> the Samhita section only, or should include> upanishads also.

At least 99% of the time in the samhita portion pleaseas there are only so many hours in a day and at theend of June I will be off to the mountains for a fewdays.Also, I believe that next month's topic will befounded in the Upanishads and I do not want to intrudeon that.

So now it will be on to Indra's magic,

Ken Knight

Message 23339 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:36 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ Individual Soul

--- asridhar19 <[email protected]> wrote:>> On the question of Soul, at a language level I am



> trying to> understand if what is called the soul does really> have an equivalent> in Advaita as a word or concept.

Namaste Sridhar,(Hopefully we can meet up again in the summer.)

Personally I do not use the word 'soul' normally. Inthe West there is great confusion about 'soul' and'spirit' and I only use these terms when addressing agathering that may have non-dual interests, such asneo-Platonic groups, but no knowledge of Sanskrit. OrI use it with my friends who are clearly on thedualistic path in the general forms of Islam andChristianity.For yourself there is to be enquiry into the realmeanings of Atman and the mahatattva 'Aham.'

I will pass on one of those simple statements that wemay hear but that stick, it did for me anyway.'Birth and death are events only noticed by others.'This was spoken casually by a man interested inadvaita.Chapter after Chapter of the Bhagavad Gita explainswhat that means.

Incidentally we keep using the word 'individual' tomean separate. And this has been the common usage fora long time but there is a sense that we may haveturned the word on its head a long time ago. 'In-' asa prefix often means 'not'. So individual could meanalso 'not divisible.' Now there's an idea to playwith.

Hope your family are well

Ken KnightMessage 23341 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:36 pmSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177


> You are jumping ahead of me. I had intended using this> one after a look at the Rbhus but will now post on it> next. Maybe I will put in a general posting that> lists all the uses of mAyA in the Rgveda before we go> much further



>> > [Rishi Vamadeva of the 4th Mandala of Rigveda> > refers to> > repeated births until the Self is realized.]>> Can you please be a bit more specific on this one as> he is responsible for all 58 sUktas. Or is this an> underlying theme do you think?> I think that X.177 sets the matter out quite clearly> that those with discrimination realise the cycle of> birth and death, a coming and going. The mAyAbheda,> maybe, is appearance only.

Namaste Kenji,

Sorry that I 'jumped' too early. It was not intentional, andI did not mean to disturb your sequence of postings.. It wasmentioned only because you alluded to Mandalas 1 & 10 as being 'lateradditions'.

The theme of Mandala 4 is not in fact re-incarnation, butthe seeds are evident: ref. 1:7; 2:17; 26:1; 27:1. Of course, yourinsight may well vary.

Regards,

Sunder

Message 23345 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:24 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ re-incarnation

--- Sunder Hattangadi <[email protected]> wrote:> The theme of Mandala 4 is not in fact> re-incarnation, but> the seeds are evident: ref. 1:7; 2:17; 26:1; 27:1.> Of course, your> insight may well vary.

Namaste Sunderji,Thank you for this. It has given me an interestingstudy Madathil may have extra luggage as he tries towork out the Lucknow Syndrome but you have certainlygot some extra moderating to do here. Fortunately therishis have no problem with 'Aham'. Again, apologiesfor length but there is no point in skimping suchbeautiful texts.Best wishes Ken Knight:



I think that these references are veryrelevant to the underlying theme of the mystery of TheOne becoming many and YAska's direction onunderstanding the Rgvedic Samhita.While I am quite sure that attachment to action andforms, through the ahamkara, results in a cycle ofwhat could be called re-birth and re-death, I do notsee how this would fit into a non-dual teaching unlesswe correctly understand the purpose of division. Thatis my bias which may be clouding my understanding ofthese references.To me they are primarily about division and theunchanging essence through which division appears, inparticular, what I tend to think of as the 'triplefire'.

But first may I state what I know you know of but maybe of use to others.

The rishis describe three planes of existence eachwith three presiding deities:dyuloka, celestial sphere: savitR or sUrya (sun),antarikshaloka, intermediary space: indra or vAyu(air)bhUrloka, terrestrial sphere: agni (fire)

Each of these three magically divides into elevengiving thirty-three gods in all although, as we havesaid many times, there is no doubt that the rishiswere aware of one Supreme Power.RV.I.139.11yé devaaso divy ékaadasha sthá pRthivyaám ádhyékaadasha sthá |apsukSíto mahinaíkaadasha sthá té devaaso yajñám imáMjuSadhvam ||

'O ye Eleven Gods whose home is heaven, O ye Elevenwho make earth your dwelling,Ye who with might, Eleven, live in waters, accept thissacrifice, O Gods, with pleasure.'

And as history progresses these are sub-divided yetagain.

Your first reference, RV IV.1.7 reads:trír asya taá paramaá santi satyaá spaarhaá devásyajánimaany agnéH |ananté antáH páriviita aágaac chúciH shukró aryórórucaanaH ||

'Three are those births, the true, the most exalted,eagerly longed-for, of the God, of Agni.



He came invested in the boundless region, pure,radiant, friendly, mightily resplendent.'

So to me, this is about the 'triple fire' inasmuch asit refers to agni taking form at each of the threespheres. Although agni presides over bhUrloka,terrestrial sphere, as the offspring of Tad Ekam agniis ever-present at all three spheres.

So we read RV. X.45.1 :divás pári prathamáM jajñe agnír asmád dvitiíyam párijaatávedaaH |tRtiíyam apsú nRmáNaa ájasram índhaana enaM jaratesvaadhiíH ||

'First Agni sprang to life from out of Heaven: thesecond time from us came Jatavedas.Thirdly the Manly-souled was in the waters. The piouslauds and kindles him the Eternal.'

In a stanza that will remind you of the 'I am' sayingsin the Bhagavad Gita we read, RV I.70.2:

aá daívyaani vrataá cikitvaán aá maánuSasya jánasyajánma ||

'He who is germ of waters, germ of woods, germ of allthings that move not and that move,-To him even in the rock and in the house: ImmortalOne, he cares for all mankind.'

So agni is the essence of allIn earlier postings I had begun with mysterious wordsabout agni as the 'Child of the Floods' which onlymakes sense when we know of the reference to the earthand sky as oceans. RV.III. 112,13:.

akró ná babhríH samithé mahiínaaM didRkSéyaH suunávebhaáRjiikaH |úd usríyaa jánitaa yó jajaánaapaáM gárbho nR'tamoyahvó agníH ||

'As keen supporter where great waters gather,light-shedder whom the brood rejoice to look on;He who begat, and will beget, the dawnlights, mostmanly, Child of Floods, is youthful Agni.'

apaáM gárbhaM darshatám óSadhiinaaM vánaa jajaanasubhágaa víruupam |devaásash cin mánasaa sáM hí jagmúH pániSThaM jaatáMtavásaM duvasyan ||

'Him, varied in his form, the lovely Infant of floods



and plants the blessed wood hath gendered.Gods even, moved in spirit, came around him, andserved him at his birth, the Strong, the Wondrous.'

So agni is embryonic in the waters, their essence asit were, and his birth is in accordance with thecontrolling and binding power of Rta which he fulfils( manifests through the fire held sacred in ourhomes): RV III.5.3

ádhaayy agnír maánuSiiSu vikSv àpaáM gárbho mitráRténa saádhan |aá haryató yajatáH saánv asthaad ábhuud u vípro hávyomatiinaám ||

'Amid men's homes hath Agni been established,fulfilling with the Law, Friend, germ of waters.Loved and adored, the height he hath ascended, theSinger, object of our invocations.'

And finally, in a stanza reminiscent of the nAsadIyasUkta, we read RV X 5 7

ásac ca sác ca paramé vyòman dákSasya jánmann áditerupásthe |agnír ha naH prathamajaá Rtásya puúrva aáyunivRSabhásh ca dhenúH ||

'Not Being, Being in the highest heaven, in Aditi'sbosom and in Daksa's birthplace,Is Agni, our first-born of Holy Order, the Milch-cowand the Bull in life's beginning.'

Now with all these words it is too easy to push agniaway into some context other than our own but thatwould be an error for agni is to be found crouched inthe cave of the heart when we 'form the mantrasthere'.RV. I.67.2kSémo ná saadhúH krátur ná bhadró bhúvat svaadhiírhótaa havyavaáT ||

'He, bearing in his hand all manly might, crouched inthe cavern, struck the gods with fear.Men filled with understanding find him there, whenthey have sung prayers formed within their heart.'

So, after all that explanation Sunderji, I think thatyour first reference in RV IV.1.7.is to do with thesethree forms of agni in the process of creation: apAmnapAt in the flood of the unmanifest, before creation,as vaiSvAnara in the heavens as the light that shinesfor all men and as jAtavedas on earth, the knower of



beings.This 'triple fire' is visible to us in the observablecosmos as the sun in the sky, lightning in the air andfire on earth. As these are coeval I would not givethese the name re-incarnations.

trír asya taá paramaá santi satyaá spaarhaá devásyajánimaany agnéH |ananté antáH páriviita aágaac chúciH shukró aryórórucaanaH ||

'Three are those births, the true, the most exalted,eagerly longed-for, of the God, of Agni.He came invested in the boundless region, pure,radiant, friendly, mightily resplendent.'

Your next reference is quite a challenge and I thinkmakes more sense when paired with its preceding verse,hence RV. IV. 2.16,17

ádhaa yáthaa naH pitáraH páraasaH pratnaáso agna RtámaashuSaaNaáH shúciíd ayan |diídhitim ukthashaásaH kSaámaa bhindánto aruNiír ápavran ||

' As in the days of old our ancient Fathers, speedingthe work of holy worship, Agni,Sought pure light and devotion, singing praises; theycleft the ground and made red Dawns apparent.'

sukármaaNaH surúco devayántó .ayo ná devaá jánimaadhámantaH |shucánto agníM vavRdhánta índram uurváM gávyampariSádanto agman ||

'Gods, doing holy acts, devout, resplendent, smeltinglike ore their human generations.Enkindling Agni and exalting Indra, they cameencompassing the stall of cattle.'

That 'smelting like ore' translation reminds me oftvashTR, the divine artisan,'skillful-handed',presiding over birth. I am running out of time so mayI return to that one later as there may be more in thestanza than I first saw….....in fact there must be.Your next two references again remind me of the 'I am'statements of the Bhagavad Gita:RV.IV 26 1ahám mánur abhavaM suúryash caaháM kakSiívaaM+ R'Sirasmi vípraH |aháM kútsam aarjuneyáM ny R`ñje .aháM kavír ushánaapáshyataa maa ||



'I was aforetime Manu, I was Surya: I am the sageKaksivan, holy singer.Kutsa the son of Arjuni I master. I am the sapientUsana behold me.'

RV.IV 27.1gárbhe nú sánn ánv eSaam avedam aháM devaánaaMjánimaani víshvaa |shatám maa púra aáyasiir arakSann ádha shyenó javásaanír adiiyam ||

' As I lay within the womb, considered all generationsof these Gods in order.A hundred iron fortresses confined me but forth I flewwith rapid speed a Falcon. '

So Sunderji, I think that we may say that thesestanzas provide the basis for the teaching of theBhagavad Gita IV: 1-9The Blessed Lord spoke:'I proclaimed the imperishable yoga to Vivasvat;Vivasvat communicated to Manu, and Manu imparted it toIkshvaku.Thus received by succession, the royal seers knewthis; after a long time here on earth, this yoga hasbeen lost, Arjuna.This ancient yoga is today declared by Me to you,since you are my devotee and my friend. The secret issupreme indeed.'Arjuna spoke: 'Your birth was later, the birth ofVivasvat earlier; how should I understand this, thatYou declared it in the beginning?'The Blessed lord spoke:'Many of My births have passed away, and also yours,Arjuna. I know them all; you do not know them Arjuna.Although I am birthless and My nature is imperishable,although I am the lord of all beings, yet, bycontrolling My own material nature, I come into beingby My own power.Whenever a decrease in righteousness exists, Arjune,and there is a rising up of unrighteousness, then Imanifest Myself.For the protection of the good and the destruction ofevil doers, for the sake of establishingrighteousness, I am born in every age.He who knows in truth, My divine birth and action,having left the body, he is not reborn; he comes toMe, Arjuna.'

Given our non-dual interest and the vision of theVedic seers as above we can see how these versesaccord wholly with the Rgvedic mantras and the conceptof 're-incarnation' has a different meaning at each



of the three levels of interpretation.

Message 23346 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:39 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. VI. 47

Namaste All,Again, sorry about the length but this is like tryingto stop a runaway train. Also apologies because thispost gets a bit 'preachy' mid-way through but itappeared that way when I sat down to write so I haveleft it unabridged. These posts are no longerpre-written but being written 'on the hoof' betweenthe usual daily activities:

RV. VI. 47

Rshi: GargaDeity: Soma. Indra. BRhaspati.Metre: TrishTup, 19 BRhatI, 23 anushTup, 34gAyatrI, 25 DvipadA, 27 jagatI

We now move from the most infrequently quoted hymn,RV.X.177, to the most frequently quoted on the subjectof mAyA:RV. VI.47, in particular stanza 18:

ruupáM-ruupam prátiruupo babhuuva tád asya ruupámpraticákSaNaaya |índro maayaábhiH pururuúpa iiyate yuktaá hy àsyahárayaH shataá dásha ||

'In every figure he hath been the mode: this is hisonly form for us to look on.Indra moves multiform by his illusions; for his BaySteeds are yoked, ten times a hundred.'

This is Griffith's translation and does he mean bytranslating mAyAbhiH that this is Indra'sdeceitfulness?If so he is sublating, a good advaitin word that, asnake onto a rope.In stanza 15 we read kRNóti puúrvam áparaM sháciibhiH'With power, he makes the last precede, the foremostfollow.' And this hymn is all about power, mightyforce.The power to appear in many forms, ten times ahundred, from the first to the last, the supreme tothe least. Indra himself represents such power.Wilson comments on stanza 18 that 'Indra presents



himself as Agni, Vishnu or Rudra or any other deitywho is the actual object of worship, and is really thedeity to be adored: He is identifiable with each.Indra is also here identified with parameSvara, thesupreme first cause that appears as many through theemanation.

Therefore this is a simple example of mAyA being usedto indicate that power of the One to become many whileremaining undiminished by addition or subtraction.

Maybe it is at this point we should introduce theverbal root of mAyA as mA: to measure out. There is acertain lady, a group member who is not to beforgotten, out there with 'her two little gems', whois probably jumping up and down impelling me to pointout that mAyA, as wisdom, skill etc is a feminine nounwhereas mAya, which means the 'measuring out' ismasculine, feminine and neuter, grammatically that is.

This is not merely stated to excite 'that lady' forthere is another very important hymn RV.I.159 in whichwe find the following:

2. utá manye pitúr adrúho máno maatúr máhi svátavastád dháviimabhiH |surétasaa pitáraa bhuúma cakratur urú prajaáyaaamR'taM váriimabhiH ||

'With invocations, on the gracious Father's mind, andon the Mother's great inherent power I muse.Prolific Parents, they have made the world of life,and for their brood all round wide immortality.'

Mother and Father together hold and manifest thepower. You need two pieces of wood in the ritual inorder to produce the flame. Fire is waiting in both toleap forth from their union.

This measuring is in accordance with Rta………see firststanza of RV I.159, 'the wise, the Strengtheners ofLaw.'……………… but Rta is the substratum as thecontrolling power, it does not do the measuring.

That action is for the powers known as 'the gods'. Tomeasure means that we have to establish a beginning, amiddle and an end. This has an element of reality, asmuch as the piece of rope previously seen as a snake,but the 'ropeness' of the rope is the superior Realitycontrolling the forms of all ropes.

This hymn is dedicated to the Asvins and centres uponthe skill and artistry in their measuring out of the



'creation/emanation' into its many forms. Thisartistry is mAyA and is a function of the 'gods' whoeven themselves take on many forms while remainingone, their essential truth, satyaM.

té suunávaH svápasaH sudáMsaso mahií jajñur maatáraapuurvácittaye |sthaatúsh ca satyáM jágatash ca dhármaNi putrásyapaathaH padám ádvayaavinaH ||

'These Sons of yours well skilled in work, of wondrouspower, brought forth to life the two great Mothersfirst of all.To keep the truth (satyaM) of all that stands and allthat moves, ye guard the station of your Son who knowsno guile.'

té maayíno mamire suprácetaso jaamií sáyonii mithunaásámokasaa |návyaM-navyaM tántum aá tanvate diví samudré antáHkaváyaH sudiitáyaH ||

'They with surpassing skill, most wise, have measuredout the Twins united in their birth and in their home.They, the refulgent Sages, weave within the sky, yea,in the depths of sea, a web for ever new.'

Note that last word of the first stanza which istranslated as 'know no guile', ádvayaavinaH.Do you recognise the a-dva at the beginning? The 'son'stands firm, protected, in the truth, satyaM, of'not-twoness' while in the presence of those which'stand' and those which 'move'.Here also is the use of the image of the spider's web,well known to Vedantins.Notice how it is 'ever new'. Everything changes fromone millisecond to the next. Why then do we deludeourselves by trying to fix it and control it? That isa fruitless attempt to impose our idea of unity ondiversity while ignoring the substratum of Unity thatis already there.

That latter is the deceitful art of delusion, not theartistry of mAyA. With this desire to fix and controlcomes duality and the pleasure/pain cycle. Hence wefind it necessary to send out our pleas for help whenwe find ourselves, still under delusion, under attack.We here send our plea to the asvins for their help.Really though it is all just the controlling power ofRta, beyond the relative distinctions of good and bad,pervading all.

In this hymn we discover where the 'magical power 'of



mAyA is stated, for the Twins are called magicians,mAyino. Are magicians deluded by their skills? Theydisplay their artistry for the amusement of themselvesand their audience but they are never fooled. Some inthe audience (why aren't they called the vidience)will want to know how the trick is done and some willjust enjoy it and some will marvel at the artistry ofthe magicians.

As the Incredible String Band sang back in the 1970's:'Maya, Maya. All this world's but a play. Be thou thejoyful player.' [some may like to look up their lyricson the Net and wonder at the insights that were flying(pataMga) around at that time.]

There is a glorious hymn to Varuna in which the singerbegins by proclaiming: 'Sing forth a hymn sublime andsolemn'….'Set intellect in hearts, fire in waters,sUrya in heaven and soma on the mountain.' Then theRishi declares:

imaám uu Sv aaaàsurásya shrutásya mahiím maayaáMváruNasya prá vocam |maáneneva tasthivaáM+ antárikSe ví yó mamépRthiviíM suúryeNa ||

'I will declare this mighty deed of magic, of gloriousVaruna the Lord Immortal,Who standing in the firmament hath meted the earth outwith the Sun as with a measure.'

These hymns are great, are they not, or am I deludingmyself?'

Message 23347 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:55 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ anandamayee

Kenji comments> For Adiji with her little gems...I hope you like that,> you are not forgotten,

Yes! right now Life is 'ananda-mayee'- full of Ananda (bliss) withan over-active Toddler and an ever-inquiring four year old who wantsto know the why and how of everything in the Universe! from theyahoo web world to the real world of Barney, wiggles, tele-tubbies,winnie the pooh, etc.... life is a different kind of excitement andthrills with these two kids keeping me on my toes - time and spacehave taken on a new meaning!



My four year old is now able to read full sentences and is very muchinterested in the origin of words !

Speaking of origin of words,

PatangA - another meaning for PatHang is "KITE"

PATH - TO FALL

GA - TO MOVE FORWARD OR RISE (gati represents movement)

have you ever seen Kite -flying , a popular sport during the springseason in india? specially during 'vasant panchami'? (bengalees callit basant panchami substituting 'b' for 'v' - that was an ingeniousinterpretation -kenji - calling vedanta 'bedanta' - the end ofdifferences) !

well, personally i like kenji's interpretation of comparing Pathangato a bird - the soaring high and falling down!(like a kite -pathang)

Yes, the IMAGERY of a BraHman as a BIRD is fascinating

Thou art the dark-blue bird and the green parrot with red eyes,Thou hast the lightning as thy child.Thou art the seasons and the seas. [Svetasvatara 4.2.4]

and kenji, Have you seen the Icon of Sree Meenakshi devi, thepowerful goddess?

on her shoulder is perched a Green parrot! and the green parrotreprsents the 'vedas' , it is said!

are we to repeat the vedic dictums parrot like or understandthe 'TATPARYA' behind these vedic suktas?

Ekam sad VIPRAH bahudah vadanti?

Message 23348 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:10 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ anandamayee

--- adi_shakthi16 <[email protected]> wrote:> Yes, the IMAGERY of a BraHman as a BIRD is> fascinating>> Thou art the dark-blue bird and the green parrot> with red eyes,> Thou hast the lightning as thy child.> Thou art the seasons and the seas. [Svetasvatara



> 4.2.4]>> Have you seen the Icon of Sree Meenakshi> devi, the> powerful goddess?>> on her shoulder is perched a Green parrot! and the> green parrot> represents the 'vedas' , it is said!

Namaste Adi-ji,I googled to find images but none were clearenough....but....is this spooky or not???We do not have wild parrots in this country butoccasionally one ( presumably two ) escape fromaviaries and survive our winters until a cold onekills them.With five warm winters here in UK we have a fewcolonies of green parrakeets that have developed and acouple live about a mile from our home around a golfcourse. Occasionally they screech overhead.

About three weeks ago two settled in a large beechtree in our garden and gradually some of their friendsjoined them.We sleep in a glass sided shed at the end of thegarden and as I walk to the house, early in themorning, I am greeted by a screeching from the flashesof green settled amongst the copper leaves of a beechtree. They go off with their friends during the dayand return for the evening screech.Life is full of coincidences.>=========================================================Message 23349 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:23 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177/ re-incarnation


> Given our non-dual interest and the vision of the> Vedic seers as above we can see how these verses> accord wholly with the Rgvedic mantras and the concept> of `re-incarnation' has a different meaning at each> of the three levels of interpretation.

Namaste Kenji,

That was a brilliant commentary, and I consider myself,and this list, fortunate in being able to share in the 'nuggets ofgold ' that you continue to mine.



The antinomy of birth and birthlessness will continue tobe a mystery till the Grace chooses us to unveil it!

Hope your trip to the mountains will give you fresh energyto go deepr in the 'mine'!

Regards,

Sunder

Message 23369 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:25 pmSubject: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. VI. 47 / Prof. R l Kashyap

RV. VI.47.18ruupáM-ruupam prátiruupo babhuuva tád asya ruupámpraticákSaNaaya |

índro maayaábhiH pururuúpa iiyate yuktaá hy àsyahárayaH shataá dásha |

'In every figure he hath been the mode: this is hisonly form for us to look on.Indra moves multiform by his illusions; for his BaySteeds are yoked, ten times a hundred.'

Namaste All,In recent posts I have referred to the above stanzawhich shows indra as having the power to appear asmany different forms, this power being his mAyA. Alsoin discussing I.159 I brought in the concept of the'magician' with the asvins being 'mAyino'. This is auseful concept when discussing mAyA in later advaitinwritings as you will know.

However last evening's reading brought the followingwhich I thought that I should pass on. Professor R.L.Kashyap has, I think, one of the best sites on theVedas although some may be put off by the backgroundof Sri Aurobindu writings which have theirindividualistic interpretations:

www.veda.com/org/index

He has added several downloads since I last visitedand may I recommend that you visit the site. In hisintroductory essay, page 933, he writes the followingin relation to RV VI. 47 which refutes any link



between this power of mAyA and magic.He states:'The mAyA powers in fact have nothing to do with magicor illusion.. They are his (Indra's) creativeconscious powers through which he has set in motionthe countless life powers which we behold. These lifeforces are imaged as his thousand horses, a failrycommon image for life-forces. The Sanskrit word forthe four-footed animals, ashva, is derived from theword 'ash' which denotes strength. Indra's steeds arenot the animals needed for his transportation, but arehis life powers, and ratha, the chariot, indicatesmovement.'

Again, I recommend his site as he is clearly moregrounded in this tradition than I am. We will hearmore about the 'chariot' when we look at the Rbhus.

Ken KnightMessage 23371 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:10 pmSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. VI. 47 / Prof. R l Kashyap

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>wrote:> RV. VI.47.18> ruupáM-ruupam prátiruupo babhuuva tád asya ruupám> praticákSaNaaya |>> índro maayaábhiH pururuúpa iiyate yuktaá hy àsya> hárayaH shataá dásha |>> `In every figure he hath been the mode: this is his> only form for us to look on.> Indra moves multiform by his illusions; for his Bay> Steeds are yoked, ten times a hundred.'>

Namaste

There is another meaning for Indra. Instead of thinking of 'indra'as the anthropomorphic king of the divines with mightiest powers andthe like, the esoteric meaning of 'indra' has to be taken intoaccount when we want to go to into the depth of the vedicstatements.

'idam drAvayati iti indraH' -- the one who pulverises this visibleeverything.



This means that 'indra' stands for the Ultimate Supreme Reality. Ihave many times heard my father say this in his expositions. ThoughI do not propose that this is the meaning of 'indra' every time theword occurs, I have a feeling that whenever we are at a dead end ininterpreting vedic statements, we have to take this intoconsideration.

PraNAms to all students of Rg Vedaprofvk

Message 23372 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:34 pmSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: ASHWINS......

Our most beloved kenji writes...

"They are his (Indra's) creative conscious powers through which hehas set in motion the countless life powers which we behold. Theselife forces are imaged as his thousand horses, a failrycommon image for life-forces. The Sanskrit word forthe four-footed animals, ashva, is derived from theword `ash' which denotes strength. Indra's steeds arenot the animals needed for his transportation, but arehis life powers, and ratha, the chariot, indicatesmovement."

MAY I PLEASE share with you all this which i read while cruising onthe web?

Ashwin in Sanskrit is one who possesses a horse, Ashwa. The Ashwins,or Ashwina in the dual case, are the twin horseman invoked in manyhymns in the Rig Veda. About fifty hymns belong exclusively to theAshwins who are mentioned commonly in many others as well. After themain Vedic deities - Indra, Agni, Surya, and Soma - the Ashwins arethe most commonly invoked of all the Gods.

There is a famous Vedic story about the Ashwins, hinted at in theRig Veda but common in the Brahmanas, that reveals their characterand the nature of Ashvini Nakshatra. The Ashwins possessed allsecret knowledge but one, the knowledge of immortality, literallythe doctrine of honey (Madhu Vidya), which is sometimes identifiedwith the knowledge of Soma. Naturally the Ashvins were willing to doanything to get it. This knowledge was possessed by the Vedic RishiDadhyak, son of the great Rishi Atharva, from whom the Atharva Vedawas named. However Dadhyak was under a curse from the great GodIndra, the king of the Gods, that he could not teach this knowledgeor Indra would cut his head off. Dadhyak told the Ashvins that hecould not teach this knowledge for fear of Indra.



The Ashwins, who possessed all magic powers, then devised a trick.They told Dadhyak that they would give him the head of a horse.Through the horse's head he could teach them the Madhu Vidya. Thenwhen Indra came and cut off his head, now that of a horse, theywould give him back his original human head. This is what happenedand the Ashwins received their knowledge from Dadhyak.

((SNIP))

The Ashvins are the miracle workers among the Vedic Gods. They healthe sick, raise the dead, save the oppressed, rescue the stranded,and so on. They are youths with special powers of all types, themiraculous twins. Their exploits are found in many places in the RigVeda but especially in several hymns of Kakshivan (I.116-120) andone of Kutsa (I.112)

In one of their exploits the Ashvins rescue Bhujyu who was thrownoverboard in the ocean. They raise him from the waters and carry himaway on an aerial ship.

For three nights and three days with your fast winged creatures,Ashvins you carried Bhujyu to the further shore of the wet oceanwith three vehicles, with a hundred feet, and six horses (trbhirathiah satapadbhih salasvaih Rig Veda I.116.4).

As horsemen the character of the Ashvins depends also upon the Vedicsymbolism of the horse, Ashva. Ashva is a Vedic word for horse andindicates speed. Ashva, as Sri Aurobindo notes, is a symbol forforce. It is often identified with Prana, sometimes with the forceof Tapas or spiritual practice, or with the motor organs(karmendriyas). The Ashvins are also deities of Prana. Horse as ananimal is symbolic for the Sun (Atharva Veda XIX.53.1), which ispulled in a chariot by seven horses. Both the Sun and Pranarepresent and measure time (Kala). Time outwardly is marked by theSun and inwardly by the movement of Prana or the breath as noted inthe Matriyani Upanishad VI.1 (this important Upanishad also mentionsnavamshas VI.14, Saturn, Rahu and Ketu VII.5, and the shifting ofthe pole star I.7). In the Rig Veda the sacrificial horse isfashioned out of the Sun (RV I.163.2). It has thirty four joints(RV. I.162.18), which can be identified with the seven planets andtwenty seven Nakshatras.

The horse sacrifice or Ashvamedha is one of the most important Vedicrituals, particularly for the Kshatriya or the warrior class. Thehorse, symbol for the Sun, is let free to roam for a year. Theking's army follows the horse and claims whatever lands the horseenters as under the domain of the king. After this time the horse issacrificed in the honor of the king. Great kings or emperors wouldlet their horse roam free from the eastern to the western sea (theBay of Bengal to the Arabian Sea). Ashvini Nakshatra has the imageof a horse's head and therefore reflects the horse sacrifice orAshvamedha that marks the year.



This horse is also the head of the enlightened seer, represented bythe rishi Dadhyak. The head is the seat of the seven Pranas - thetwo eyes, two ears, two nostrils and mouth - which are also calledthe seven suns because they are the basis of our sensory perception.The sacrifice of the horse is also the transcending of bodyconsciousness, the sacrifice of Prana, our life-energy, to theDivine.

Yet Vedic rituals were not only external but internal, in which thehorse is Prana. The year is the movement of Prana up and down thespine, with the upward movement marked by the northern course of thesun (Devayana or Uttarayana) and the downward movement by thesouthern course of the Sun (Pitrayana or Dakshinayana). Theliberated horse is the liberated Prana. The sacrificed horse is thesacrificed Prana, which liberates it from the outer world into theinner world of pure consciousness.

In the Rig Veda the Ashvins are the first deities on the Path ofLight (Devayana), as the Rishi Agastya notes, and the Rishi Vasishtaalso has the same verse in his hymns.

We have crossed the limit of darkness and placed our adoration tothe Ashvins. May they come by the paths of the Devayana. RV I.184.6and RV VII.73.1

to read the complete text ...

http://www.vedanet.com/Ashvini.htm - 18k - Cached

thank you kenji ! looking forward to more of 'maya' and her Magickin the rig vedas ...

Message 23373 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:39 pmSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. VI. 47 / Prof. R l Kashyap

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:> RV. VI.47.18> ruupáM-ruupam prátiruupo babhuuva tád asya ruupám> praticákSaNaaya |

>> www.veda.com/org/index

Namaste,

The accurate URL is:

http://www.vedah.com/org/index.asp



This line also occurs in Katha upan. 2:2:9-10 , indicating theimmanence-transcendence of the spirit .

Also see: 2:9:12 ekaM bIjaM bahudhA yaH karoti [the one, who makeshis one form manifold].

Regards,

SunderMessage 23374 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:07 pmSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. VI. 47 / Prof. R l Kashyap

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:> RV. VI.47.18> ruupáM-ruupam prátiruupo babhuuva tád asya ruupám> praticákSaNaaya |>> índro maayaábhiH pururuúpa iiyate yuktaá hy àsya> hárayaH shataá dásha |>> `In every figure he hath been the mode: this is his> only form for us to look on.> Indra moves multiform by his illusions; for his Bay> Steeds are yoked, ten times a hundred.'> In his> introductory essay, page 933, he writes the following> in relation to RV VI. 47 which refutes any link> between this power of mAyA and magic.

Namaste Ken-ji,

It would be interesting know Prof. Kashyap's commentary on RigVeda 3:53:8.

http://www.srivaishnava.org/scripts/veda/rv/rvtop.htm (Wilson/Sayana)

3.053.08 Maghavan becomes repeatedly (manifest) in various forms,practising delusions with respect to his own peculiar person; andinvoked by his appropriate prayers, he comes in a moment from heavento the three (daily rites), and, although observant of seasons, isthe drinker (of the Soma) irrespective of season.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv03053.htm (Griffith)



8 Maghavan weareth every shape at pleasure, effecting magic changesin his body, Holy One, drinker out of season, coming thrice, in amoment, through fit prayers, from heaven.

Regards,

SunderMessage 23377 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:28 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. VI. 47 / Prof. R l Kashyap

ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:> > RV. VI.47.18> > ruupáM-ruupam prátiruupo babhuuva tád asya ruupám> > praticákSaNaaya |

Sunderji responds

This line also occurs in Katha upan. 2:2:9-10 , indicating the> immanence-transcendence of the spirit .>> Also see: 2:9:12 ekaM bIjaM bahudhA yaH karoti [the one, whomakes> his one form manifold].

Here is one more along the same lines ...

'One fire burns in many ways: one sun illumines the universe; onedivine dispels all darkness. He alone has revealed himself in allthese forms.'eka evAgnir bahudhA samiddhaekaH sUryo visvam anu prabhUtaH |ekaivoShAH sarvam idaM vibhAtyekaM vaidam vi babhUva sarvam || Rhg Veda VIII. 58.

Hari Aum!

Message 23378 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:07 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. VI. 47 / Prof. R l Kashyap

--- Sunder Hattangadi <[email protected]> wrote:> It would be interesting know Prof. Kashyap's> commentary on Rig> Veda 3:53:8.



Namaste Sunder-jiSorry about mis-typing.I will e-mail Prof. Kashyap and ask him. He answeredan e-mail a year ago but a later one did not a replyso we have a 50/50 chance....nb to statiticians.....Iknow that that is not true but it was a way of endingthe sentence.

Ken Knight

Message 23379 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:55 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: ASHWINS......

--- adi_shakthi16 <[email protected]> wrote:

>Yet Vedic rituals were not only external but>internal, in which the>horse is Prana.

Namaste Adi-ji,And how are we to understand that?With mind and heart harnessed to the chariot maybe ifwe are to be guided by the Rbhus.We need to find the 'ropeness of the rope' toestablish a pure ritual ground and the artistry of therishis to 'chisel the mantras' there.

Intellect alone strands us in the 'arena' ofinterpretation without understanding; understandingcomes through direct experience only (in due time. SeeProfesssor VK's quote below.) .

In that 'arena' our competing horses may excite uswith their artistry but after the victor has beengarlanded another race begins.

Depending on the context of the story the horse hasdifferent levels of meanings. It is the ultimatemagnificent power 9prAna) but once that power hasunlawfully been snatched by the 'stickiness' of theahaMkAra then it becomes personal, that is a maskimposed (persona). Remember YAska?

As has been said previously in this topic, we aretraditionally advised to study the Vedas through thestories and the histories, puranas and itihasas, foras Professor Krishnamurty posted on Shata-shloki 8,



referring to Shrimad Bhagavatam XI 3 44:

'The Vedas always tell you only indirectly, they hidetheir real intent. It is like getting things done bychildren. The Vedas prescribe actions/rituals for youso that in due time you may be relieved of allactions.'

> There is a famous Vedic story about the Ashwins,> hinted at in the> Rig Veda but common in the Brahmanas, that reveals> their character> and the nature of Ashvini Nakshatra.

A bit more on 'direct experience'.Some years ago I was given a battered photostat ofpart of the Jyotish Vedanga, it had the transliteratedSanskrit and an English translation. One partresonated with me as it detailed the practice ofgiving the child a Nakshatra name.I have quoted it many times since and the gist of itis:'When you give the nakshatra name remember that whenthe 'true Sun' shines they are na-kshatra(no-power).'

The gods, shining in the celestial sky of that 'innerspace', lose the power that has been attributed tothem, (through division, bilma, for the purposes ofexplanation ), when the true Sun shines through directexperience.That is not to say that the sweetness of the asvin isnot to be sought but the true source acknowledged:Kena Up. 5'That which is not uttered by speech that by whichspeech is revealed, know that alone to be Brahman, andnot what people worship as an object (idam)(tadeva brahma tvaM viddhi nedaM yadidamupAsate)

Many thanks for the link which is yet another valuablecontribution,

Thank you again

Ken Knight

Message 23381 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:08 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Indra



--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:>>'idam drAvayati iti indraH' -- the one who>pulverises this visible>everything.

>This means that 'indra' stands for the Ultimate>Supreme Reality. I>have many times heard my father say this in his>expositions. Though>I do not propose that this is the meaning of 'indra'>every time the>word occurs, I have a feeling that whenever we are>at a dead end in>interpreting vedic statements, we have to take this>into>consideration.

Namaste Professor-ji,This is interesting because when Indra releases thecows, as you know, he cracks open the 'rock' with hislightning shaft:VI.43.3yásya gaá antár áshmano máde dRLhaá avaásRjaH |

'In whose wild joy thou settest free the kine heldfast within the rock,'

We can now understand that to mean that when theimmediate impact of intuited knowledge strikes thebonds of ignorance the words of truth are released andknowledge dawns.Now that same stanza is sometimes interpreted asshowing the essential function of Indra to cause thesat to appear out of the asat…..the rock being asymbol of asat.

All of which takes us yet again to the appearance ofdifference; we cannot have difference as a process ofexplanation unless its aim is a solution thattranscends difference.This examples the problem of paradox. Reminiscent ofShiva's roles as creator and destroyer, we can findIndra taking many forms to play these various roles.

Here are some notes on Indra that may be of interestto people.Indra personifies Rta as the ordering and harmonisingintelligence in the inner and outer spaces. Heunfolds the spiritual world into the physical bycommanding the inner space. He brings light out ofdarkness, out of the hidden depths:



RV.III.39.6-7gúhaa hitáM gúhyaM guuLhám apsú háste dadhe dákSiNedákSiNaavaan |

'That which lay secret, hidden in the waters, he heldin his right hand, the rich rewarder.'

jyótir vRNiita támaso vijaanánn aaré syaama duritaádabhiíke |

'He took the light, discerning it from darkness: maywe be far removed from all misfortune.'

He direct those rays of the sun that we heard about inX.177

sá ít támo .avayunáM tatanvát suúryeNa vayúnavaccakaara |

'He hath made pathways, with the Sun to aid him,throughout the darkness that extended pathless.'

Not only is he 'aided by sUrya' he is indeedidentified with sUrya in RV.X.89.2:

sá suúryaH páry uruú váraaMsy éndro vavRtyaad ráthyevacakraá |átiSThantam apasyàM ná sárgaM kRSNaá támaaMsi tvíSyaajaghaana ||

'Surya is he: throughout the wide expanses shall Indraturn him, swift as car-wheels, hither,Like a stream resting not but ever active he hathdestroyed, with light, the blackhued darkness.'

It is through his might…......this may be related backto the releasing of the cows but I am trying not tointerpret too wildly…. ....He provides space for thegods:

mahó mahaáni panayanty asyéndrasya kárma súkRtaapuruúNi |vRjánena vRjinaán sám pipeSa maayaábhir dásyuuM+rabhíbhuutyojaaH ||

'They laud the mighty acts of him the Mighty, the manyglorious deeds performed by Indra.He in his strength, with all-surpassing prowess,through wondrous arts crushed the malignant Dasyus.'

yudhéndro mahnaá várivash cakaara devébhyaH sátpatishcarSaNipraáH |



'Lord of the brave, Indra who rules the people gavefreedom to the Gods by might and battle.'

We then have this might and power reminiscent of theteaching given by Professor Krishnamurthy'sillustrious father:

sháMsaa mahaám índraM yásmin víshvaa aá kRSTáyaHsomapaáH kaámam avian |

yáM sukrátuM dhiSáNe vibhvataSTáM ghanáM vRtraáNaaMjanáyanta devaáH ||

'Great Indra will I laud, in whom all people who drinkthe Soma have attained their longing;Whom, passing wise, Gods, Heaven and Earth,engendered, formed by a Master's hand, to crush theVrtras.'

In all this outward activity we may understand that hebecame somewhat proud of his powers and so we have toturn once more to the Kena Upanishad when the Yakshadisappears when approached by Indra full of bluster:Swami GambhirAnanda gives in his commentary on KenaUp.III.11:

'Brahman (Yaksha) did not so much as grant him aninterview so that Indra's pride may be totallyeradicated.'I read in this that the intellect, proud of itsachievement in understanding something will,doubtless, in due course, be faced by that which itcannot understand, in order that its pride be removed.

Then at the beginning of the next chapter, Kena UpIV.1, after umA had taken the place of the disappearedYaksha, she says:

' "It was Brahman. In Brahman's victory, indeed, youbecame elated thus."From that (utterance) alone, to be sure, did Indralearn it was Brahman.'

That is so important 'tataH ha eva'!!!!! That is aboutas strongly emphasised as it can be. Indra heard thewords of umA. But if he was all bluster he would nothave heard a word.The reason for this is in Kena Up. III. 12.'tasmin eva AkASe…in that very space.'

So Indra stands….Sanskrit verbal root 'sta'……in thatvery place where the Yaksha disappeared.



In my interpretation of all this….......so it is opento many challenges…......this Upanishadic teachingrelates us back to the Rgveda and the quality of Indraas that one who re-unites.He is described as the 'meditating god' , prá súgmántaa dhiyasaanásya sakSáNi (see full stanza below.

In order to perceive the ropeness of the rope we mustnot run away from the snake. This requires austerity,tapas, or meditation, which is again reminiscent ofthe nasadIya sUkta.In X.167.1 we read:tvám tápaH paritápya ajayaH svàr ||'thou, having glowed with Fervour, worthiest heavenlylight'

In an earlier hymn, RV.II. 12.1 we read that Indra isthe 'first to possess mind', prathamo manasvAn:In case it has been forgotten, the nasadIya sUkta,RV.X 129.3 reads:táma aasiit támasaa guuLhám ágre .apraketáM saliláMsárvam aa idám |tuchyénaabhv ápihitaM yád aásiit tápasas tánmahinaájaayataíkam ||'Darkness there was: at first concealed in darknessthis All was indiscriminated chaos.

All that existed then was void and form less: by thegreat power of Warmth was born that first germ ofmind.'

Several times recently I have suggested that it is thefunction of the intellect to divide for the purpose ofexplanation and tried to relate this to Yaska's simplestatement on 'bilma.' I would also point to the fullstanza of that above quote and would suggest thatGriffith's translation misses the mark a bit:yó jaatá evá prathamó mánasvaan devó devaán krátunaaparyábhuuSat |yásya shúSmaad ródasii ábhyasetaaM nRmNásya mahnaá sájanaasa índraH ||

'He who, just born, chief God of lofty spirit by powerand might became the Gods' protector,Before whose breath through greatness of his valourthe two worlds trembled, He, O men, is Indra.'

It is through this ability to be still and silent, tostay in 'that place',like Arjuna when he prostratesbefore Lord Krishna, that Indra is able to enter the'third heaven' to discover amRta:



ayám akRNod uSásaH supátniir ayáM suúrye adadhaajjyótir antáH |ayáM tridhaátu diví rocanéSu tritéSu vindad amR'taMníguuLham ||

'The Dawns he wedded to a glorious Consort, and setwithin the Sun the light that lights him.He found in heaven, in the third lucid regions, thethreefold Amrta in its close concealment.'

So, although we began our meeting with Indra whenconsidering his mAyA power to appear in many forms wecan see in the above picture of him in the Rgveda thathe is central to both the outward and the inward flow.

Hope the above is not too disjointed b ut it has beenwritten 'on the hoof' as it were.

Ken KnightMessage 23384 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "asridhar19" <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:10 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Indra

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...> wrote:> --- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@y...> wrote:> >> >'idam drAvayati iti indraH' -- the one who> >pulverises this visible> >everything.>> >This means that 'indra' stands for the Ultimate> >Supreme Reality. I> >have many times heard my father say this in his> >expositions. Though> >I do not propose that this is the meaning of 'indra'> >every time the> >word occurs, I have a feeling that whenever we are> >at a dead end in> >interpreting vedic statements, we have to take this> >into> >consideration.>>> So, although we began our meeting with Indra when> considering his mAyA power to appear in many forms we> can see in the above picture of him in the Rgveda that> he is central to both the outward and the inward flow.>



> Hope the above is not too disjointed b ut it has been> written 'on the hoof' as it were.>> Ken KNightNamaste Kenji and allThe presentation of a multifaceted and multifunctional Indra is soenlightening. From the Puranas,superficially, I had by and largedeveloped a prejudiced opinion that he is normally the one thatbehaves in a manner not befitting his position. Typical episodes onerecalls are his duplicity with ahalya, attack on Sitaji, immaturechallenging of Krishna, incurring sages wrath and suffering a curseetc. I had also conjured him up as the one at the helm who wants tohang on to his seat of power at any cost with a great amount ofinsecurity and works hard at bringing obstructions in yaga's andsadhanas.

Again, I'd request you to look at these impressions as those of onewho is not very well educated and has not applied adequate thought towhat Indra really represents and has been content with gatheringimpressions from episodes.I further learnt that he is the presiding deity of mind and my mindbeing what it is, my perception ( through the mind?) of Indra goteven more badly coloured.I used to feel, rather than seek his co-operation in my efforts I should probably directly address the lordin whose light he automatically behaves.

However, your detailed exposition has given many new concepts tothink about, ponder and muse on the subject of Indra. Somewhere alongthe line one hopes that one's perspective gets better.

Many thousand namaskarams to allSridhar

Message 23385 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:12 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Indra

--- asridhar19 <[email protected]> wrote:

> The presentation of a multifaceted and> multifunctional Indra is so> enlightening. From the Puranas,superficially, I had> by and large> developed a prejudiced opinion that he is normally> the one that> behaves in a manner not befitting his position.

Namaste Sridhar,I am not well qualified to pick this one up properly



for you as when I read the Puranas I may enjoy them ,think 'That's nice,' and then forget all about what Ihave read. Whereas when I read Sruti I linger over thewords and delight in them.Hence when I look to contribute the ideas about IndraI go to the Rgveda. There we can see, as in my lastposting, the context in which he was first envisagedand then the Kena Upanishad builds upon that traditionwhich ranges from the the closest of stations with theSupreme Source Itself to the boastful yet humbledpower.

If I may advise in the light of your past postings onthe ahaMkAra: please focus on the story of Indrakilling vRtra.Vrtra, as you know is the asura in the form of theblack serpent (dark monsoon cloud) that holds up thepropitious rainfall...'The darkness withheld the flowof rain. In vRtra's belly the rain-cloud layconcealed. But Indra released the flowing of thewater, thus gathered up by vRtra, into the regionsbelow.' RV.I.54.10

Let us place this in the context of our own psyche.We know well the experience when our mind and heart isfilled with light, the light displaying the hiddenpresence of consciousness.We also know that more frequent condition when itappears, through delusion, to be without light andspace. Attachment to worries about family, finance,status in society etc. darken and cloud theever-shining Sun, we have a crowd of enemies whom wewish to quieten. So we speak of 'My problem'.Suddenly we may glimpse a chance of a solution and actaccordingly and lay the claim, 'I did that well!' asthe energy flows and excitement displays the relief.That error is what it means when we are told by Srutiabout eating without offering to the gods. If we dothis then the same situation will occur again until welearn to offer up or dedicate action.Such a scene is a reflection of Indra's problem, hecan get somewhat puffed up when things are 'goingwell'.He needs to think,'How did the cloud get there?''It was drawn up from the waters.''By what?''The heat of the Sun.'That, and the release of the waters, is the harmoniousflow of Rta, it is the manifesting will of Absolute orTad Ekam. There is no 'My problem.' It is all thedharmic unfolding in accordance with the harmony ofRtam and Satyam.



It is only our claim to a dualistic vision of 'me andothers' that prevents us realising this.

To conclude, may we return to the Kena Upanishad wherewe find, IV.3, that when Indra has understood that the'victory was Brahman's' :'Therefore did Indra excel the other deities. For hetouched it most proximately, inasmuch as he knew itfirst as Brahman.'

Have a good weekend

ken Knight

Message 23386 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:24 amSubject: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: General Info.

Namaste All,With the end of June approaching I thought that Ishould post some useful infromation so that one day,if you had the impulse to look further into thistopic, you have the necessary references.

Enjoy your future studies.

ken Knight

1) From 'The Doctrine of Maya in the Philosophy ofVedanta' P D Shastri :

There are seventy-five hymns in R.V. in which the wordmAyA appears in its simple or compound forms. Thislist is collated under the deity to whom it isaddressed.

Thirty-five to Indra (I: 11,32,33,51,56,80,144,160;II: 11,17; III, 334,53; IV: 16,30; V: 30,31; VI:18,20,22,44,45,47; VII 28,98,104; VIII: 3,14,76;X:73,99,111,138,147)Eight to Agni ( I:. 144 ; III: 20, 27; V. 2; VII.: 1;VIII: 23; X:5, 53) ;Four to the ASvins (I: 117; V. 78; VI. 63; X: 24)Four to the Maruts (I: 39, 64; V: 58; VI 48);Three to ViSvedevAH (III: 56; V. 44, 48);Two to Varuna (V. 85; VIII: 41),Two to Soma (IX. 73, 83),Two to Mitravarunau (I:151; V. 63),DyAva-pRthivyau (I: 100, 159);One each to Ushas (III. 61), SarasvatI (VI:61 ), the



Adityas (II:27), PUshan (VI:58), Atri (V: 40), JnAnam(X: 71), the Rbhus (III: 60), IndrAvarunau (VII: 82),SomArkau (X.:85), MAyAbheda (X:177), IndrAvishnU(VII:99) ; PrajApati-VaiSvAmitra (III: 38), andSUrya-vaiSvAnarau ( X:88).

2) MAyA is a feminine noun. In case you are notfamiliar with such terms, we need to label words toestablish the part they play in a sentence. Nominative(Subject)Accusative (Object)Instrumental (by or with)Dative (to or for)Ablative (from)Genitive (of the)Locative (in)Vocative (O) as in O Lord Krishna

We also need to know the related noun mAyin, skilledin art or enchantment, later meaning magician.

3) The following list of the usage of mAyA in theRigVeda is also from 'The Doctrine of Maya in thePhilosophy of Vedanta' P D Shastri :

(1) mAyAH (nominative and accusative pluraltwenty-four times) I..32.4 I.l17.3 II.:11.10,27.26; III: 20.3 , 53.8 ; V:2.9 , 31.7 , 40.8 ;VI:.18.9 , 20.4 , .22.9 ,44.22 45.9, 58.l ;VII.:1.lO,98.5, 99.4 ; VIII:.41.8 ; X.:53.9, 73.5,99.2, 111.6.(2) rnAyayA (instrumental singular nineteen times)I:80.7 , 144.1, 160.3 ; II:.17.5; III:.27.7IV:30.l2 , 30.21 ; V.63.3, 63.7 ; VI: 22.6, 23.15; VII: 4l.3 ,104.24 ; IX:.73.5 ,73.9 , 83.3 ;X.:71.5 , 85.l8 , 177.l(3) mAyinaH (accusative plural and genitive singularof mAyin fifteen times)I:.39.2 , 51.5 , 54.4 , 64.7 ,159.4 ; II:11.10 ;III.38.7, 38.9, 56.1 ; V.44.11 ; VI:.61.3 ;VII: 82.3 ; VIII:.3.19,.23.14 X.l38.3(4) mAyAbhiH (instrumental plural thirteen times)I:11.7, 33.10 , 51.5 , 51.9 ; III.: 34.6, 60.1; V:30.6, 44.2, .78.6 ; VI:.47.l8, 63.5 ; VII:l4.14 X.147.2(5) mAyinam (accusative singular of mAyin ten times)I.:11.7, 53.7, 56.3 , 80.7 II.:11.5; V:30.6 , 58.2 VI.48.14 ; VIII:76.1 ;X.147.2.(6) mAyA (three times) III: 61.7 ; V:.63.4 ;X.54.2



(7) mAyAm (accusative singular three times) V:85.5,85.6 ; X:.88.6(8) mAyI (nominative singular of mAyin three times)VII: 28.4 ; X.99.10 ; X: 147.5(9) mAyinam (three times) I:32.4 ; III.: 20.3 ,34.3(10) mAyinI (two times) V: 48.1 ; X:.5.3(11) mAyyinA (instrumental singular of mAyin) VI:63.5(12) mAyini V: 48.3(13) mAyAvinA X:24.4(14) mAyAvAn IV:16.9(15) mAyAvinam II:11.9(16) mAyAvinaH X: 83.3

Message 23387 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:48 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Indra

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>wrote:>> To conclude, may we return to the Kena Upanishad where> we find, IV.3, that when Indra has understood that the> 'victory was Brahman's' :> 'Therefore did Indra excel the other deities. For he> touched it most proximately, inasmuch as he knew it> first as Brahman.'>>>

Namaste all

Yes, Ken-ji, your emphasis on the above quote from Kena Upanishad iswell-placed. The Kanchi Mahaswamigal (The Paramacharya) also, veryoften refers to this greatness of Indra. Recall, for example, hisexplanation of Shloka 65 in Soundaryalahari, at

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/DPDS71-75.html

Thanks, Ken-ji, for a wonderful analysis of Indra in the Rg Veda.You have given us all tons and tons of homework to do. It will takequite a long time for us to catch up with you, if at all!


Message 23388 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 7:50 amSubject: Re: Indra-the Vedic Noah? shower and sunshine ????



Ken-knightji!

Wow! what a gift! the gift of vedic knowledge is the best gift ofall ! A million thanks for for all these cool showers of praise onthe Sovereign ruler Indra on a hot summer day in June !

read

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF INDRA: in this poem

Thou, God of Thunder, satst on Meru thron'd,

Cloud-riding, mountain-piercing, thousand-ey'd,

With young PULOMAJA, thy blooming bride,

Whilst air and skies thy boundless empire own'd,

Hail, DYUPETIR, dismay to Bala's pride!

Or speaks PURANDER best thy martial fame,

Or SACRA, mystick name?

With various praise in odes and hallow'd story

Sweet bards shall hymn thy glory.

Thou, VA'SAVA, from this unmeasur'd height

Shedst pearl, shedst odours o'er the sons of light!

The Vedas say:

Vaiswanara(Indra), by his magnitude, is all men...[Thus, Vedictheology

suggests resolving all the divinities in Vedic literature intothree: Fire,

Air, the Sun and then, all these into one, the Sun Nirukta.] Indra

(is)...the ancient Lord...who is the type of all...Thou art the typeof



the extended earth; thou art the lord of the vast God-frequented

(Swarga). Verily, with thy bulk thou fillest all the firmament: of atruth,

there is none other such as thou! (55)

The Rig Veda also affirms to its readers, that

The circumstationed [inhabitants of the three worlds] associated with

{Indra], the mighty Aditya (Sun), the indestructible Agni (Fire), the

moving Vayu (Wind), that light that shines in the sky. (56)

All such epithets applying to Indra suggest an all inclusivesupremacy and sovereignty above all the other gods.

for he, the performer of good works hast suddenly become augmented

vigour, for the sake of drinking the libation [Soma juice], and[maintaining]

seniority (among the gods). (58)

And, again, as the hymnist writes:

for they [the soma juices] enter unto thee: may they be propitious

for thy [attainment of] superior intelligence. (59)

So that...

Indra may...enjoy these...viands, in which all manly propertiesabide. (60)

Indra's 'suddenly augmented vigour' rightfully juxtaposes him as



originator of the first inhabitants of the world, succeeding hisreconstitution. For, the un-named speaker of the Rig Veda addressesthem saying,

Mortals, you owe your [daily] birth (to such an Indra), who, withrays

of the morning (as the Sun) gives sense to the senseless, and to the

formless, form. (61)

again,

Indra, to render all things visible elevated the Sun in(to) the sky,and

charged the cloud with [abundant] waters...Indra slays *Ahi* andbecomes

Universal Sovereignty, the Monarch of all men, comprehending all

things: then, Indra, the wielder of the thunder-bolt, becamesovereign

of all that is moveable or immovable, of hornless and horned cattle;

and as he abides the monarch of men, he comprehended all things

(within him).. (63)

(snip)

Indra as overseer is invested with all the highest attributes andaspects of all the deities and is superior over all. In the mostancient Vedic Period, Indra is shown to have had the titles of theSun, Fire, Wind and Stars, hence, his supreme seniority as the Vedichistorian has written:(70)

Whatever excellent praises are given to all the other divinities,they

are [also the due] of Indra... (71)

Wherefore, Indra is that original one,



...who alone rules over [all] men...and over the five classes of the

dwellers on earth. (72)

And, is also that mighty Solar King who is,

...to be reverenced by all mankind. (73)

Indra is also called "Vasu", a synonym for his name which explainshis position as the original donor or cause of all habitation.(74)...rendered all things visible, and elevated the Sun into the Sky.(75)

And, even as the Sun itself, he "...animated the mountain [or world]

with his rays [or, political wisdom]. (76)

more on the glory of indra

Straight from sev'n winds immortal Genii flew,

Green Varuna, whom foamy waves obey,

Bright, Vahni flaming like the lamp of day,

Kuvera sought by all, enjoyed by few,

Marut, who bids the winged breezes play,

Stern Yama, ruthless judge, and Isa cold

With Nairrit mildly bold:

They with the ruddy flash, that points his thunder,

Rend his vain bands asunder.

Th' exulting God resumes his thousand eyes,

Four arms divine, and robes of changing dyes.more on Indra's sovereignity



Thee, darter of the swift blue bolt, he sang;

Sprinkler of genial dews and fruitful rains

O'er hills and thirsty plains!

When through the waves of war thy charger sprang,

Each rock rebell'd and each forest rang,

Till vanquish'd Asuras felt avenging pains.

Send o'er their seats the snake, that never dies,

But waft the virtuous to thy skies!

read the entire article

http://www.weirdvideos.com/g6.html - 79k – CachedMessage 23389 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Sunder Hattangadi" <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:36 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Indra

--- In [email protected], "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@y...>wrote:> --- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>> wrote:> >> To conclude, may we return to the Kena Upanishad where> > we find, IV.3, that when Indra has understood that the> > 'victory was Brahman's' :> > 'Therefore did Indra excel the other deities. For he> > touched it most proximately, inasmuch as he knew it> > first as Brahman.'> >

>> Thanks, Ken-ji, for a wonderful analysis of Indra in the Rg Veda.> You have given us all tons and tons of homework to do. It will take> quite a long time for us to catch up with you, if at all!

Namaste,

'One droplet of the Vedic ambrosia is enough to make one notonly taste immortality but swim or drown in its oceanis expanse'.

Sri Vasishtha Ganapati Muni, the pre-eminent disciple ofRamana Maharshi and Vedic scholar (and Guru of Sri Kapali Shastry),wrote the following [from the Rig Veda]:



Indra-sahasra-nama (1000 names of Indra in the Rig Veda, withno duplicate names!)

Indrani-Saptashati (700 verses on Indra's consort)

Indra-gitam (dvipada stotra, in Telugu).

[Ref.: Bhagavan and Nayana, by S. Shankaranarayanan, 2nd ed. 1997,Ramanashram.] No details are available about the originalpublications.

Thank you, Kenji, for leading us to the shores of thatocean.

Regards,

SunderMessage 23390 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:58 amSubject: Re: Indra slaying vrtra - the meaning of the story

Thank you kenji for placing he story of Indra and vrtra in a properperspective.

Here is another explanation...

Within the Vedas is an important story relating to Indra and Vrtra.In later Hinduism Indra is little more than a Deity of the rains orstorms. While Indra and his thunderbolt can be associated withstorms, in Vedic times Indra was considered the God of gods. Whilethis may have little relevance to the western reader, Indra can bebrought into light for the western mind. Indra is our true essenceor being. Some might use the term soul, or the power of the soul.

Vrtra is often referred to as the adversary of Indra. Vrtra is alsoreferred to as the dragon or serpent, which holds back the waters.These waters are released when Indra slays Vrtra. Again this canhave little relevance to the western reader, however Vrtra can beeasily brought into light for the western mind. To understand Vrtraone must first look to the root that forms the word: Vr.

Vr literally means, "to cover". Vr is also a name for Indra. In theVedic system, Vrtra is a shadow of Indra; and some consider him thebrother of Indra. So does this literally mean that Indra has slainhis brother? Is this an earlier version of the Cain and Able storyrecorded in the Bible? Most likely it is not. Vrtra is a reflectionof Indra. This reflection covers and obscures our view of the true



reality of nature. Just as a mountain can be reflected in a lake,the lake cannot be the mountain but only a reflection of it, areflection (within the lake) that is easily disturbed. So what isthis reflection that appears so pure and perfect?

This reflection would be called Vrtra, and Vrtra is a reference tothe ego. More correctly it is the concealing power of Vrtra. Thispower of Vrtra is referred to as "Avarana Shakti". Avarana Shaktican literally mean "the power to hinder in time and space." Vrtra isthe root power of the ego, and has the power to hinder our spiritualgrowth in the field of time and space, but not the power to hinderour true power or essence (Indra). It would be correct to call itthe root power of the ego. Vrtra later appears in Hindu philosophyas avidya (ignorance). It would also be correct to say that Vrtra isthe power of maya in the world.

References to Indra slaying the serpent and releasing the waters isa teaching of spiritual realization. The cover of avidya (ignorance)being removed opening us to awareness of our true nature. This isthe journey of humankind. Each individual consciously orunconsciously is traveling this path. This was clearly understood bythe great rshi's of the Vedic period. Their great gift to futuregenerations was recorded in the Vedas and has been preserved forover 8500 years. While some scholars could argue that Indras slayingof the serpent can also be a reference to awakening the kundalinienergy. This should not be seen as a conflict with the underliningessence of Indra and Vrtra. It is more of an extension or otheraspect of the universal truth presented with Indra and Vrtra. Itwould also be correct to say that Vrtra is the kundalini in adormant (tamasic) state. Vrtra is the inertia that keeps thekundalini from rising up the sushumna.

(snip)

Of course in the Rg Veda 1.10.5 gives insight into how to increaseour Indra or ego defeating energy. It says in the first line:

Uktham indraya shamsyam.

Offer praise to Indra [with] hymns [mantra].

There are numerous riks (hymns) to Indra; these are best learnedfrom a qualified Vedic yoga teacher.

to read the entire article

http://www.yoga-age.com/articles/lightonvrtra.html - 19k - Cached

'Rig Veda,' II, 12, 1-5 13)

Indra - to thee ! we bow!



1. The chief wise god who as soon as bornsurpassed the gods in power;Before whose vehemence the two worlds trembled by reasonof the greatness of valour: he, O men, is, Indra

2. Who made firm the quaking earth,who set at rest the agitated mountains;Who measures out the air more widely,who supported the heaven: he, O men, is Indra.

3. Who having slain the serpent released the seven streams,who drove out the cows by the unclosing of Vala,Who between two rocks has produced fire,victor in battles: he, O men, is Indra.

4. By whom all things here have been made unstable,who has made subject the Dasa color4 and has made itdisappear;Who, like a sinning gambler the stake,has taken the possessions of the foe: he, O men, is Indra.

5. The terrible one of whom they ask 'where is he,'of whom they also say 'he is not':He diminishes the possessions of the foe like the stakes ofgamblers. Believe in him: he, O men, is Indra. . . .

13. Even heaven and Earth bow down before him;before his vehemence even the mountains are afraid.Who is known as the Soma-drinker, holding the bolt in his arm,who holds the bold in his hand: he, O men, is Indra.

Translated by A.A. Macdonell, in his A Vedic Reader for Students(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1917), pp45-54

Message 23391 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:35 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: Indra/ Saundaryalahari

--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]> wrote:>. The Kanchi Mahaswamigal (The> Paramacharya) also, very> often refers to this greatness of Indra. Recall, for> example, his> explanation of Shloka 65 in Soundaryalahari, at>>http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/DPDS71-75.html



Namaste Professor-ji,You too have given me much work for the future bydirecting me to the above. That is a bonus to thisstudy.I have previously mentioned Dr Gopinath Kaviraj andhis importance to me. It is by many strange eventsthat I find myself now working in the same area as hedid: the possible relationship between Adi-Shankara'sadvaita and that in Kashmiri Saivism.As you know, Saundaryalahari is at the centre of sucha study and there are many biased reasons for thosewho wish to deny its authorship to Shankara. It willbe a study later in the summer after I have returnedto Upadesa Sahasri, an incomplete study that had to beabandoned last year.In relation to the content on the above ref. may Irelate a bit of ken-history:Dr Kaviraj sent me to Sri Anandamayee and aftermeeting her I returned to the Government rest house. Istretched out on the floor and rested. Gradually Ifound myself listening to what I had come to call'Inner music'. This had occured before in the UK . (Myrecent research has shown that this is a fairly commonevent but I do not want to discuss that further here)It is not the memory playing a recalled tune but it isas if I am in an audience in an inner world of hiddenmusicians, not just listening but being expanded bythe music. In Banaras it was especially noticeable aspreviously the music had been western but on thatoccasion it was classical Indian. It continued forsome time but there was an instrument that I could notrecognise by its sound. A few weeks later I was up inMussourie when I heard a Vina for the first time andknew that to be the mystery instrument.Now, in the room beside me is my vina and on top ofthe computer is a small statue of Sarasvati with hervina.

Life is very strange at times but thank heavens andthe resident powers that we do not know what is goingon or we would interfere.

Sorry for the personal digression,

Ken Knight

Message 23393 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:23 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas /green parrots



--- Sunder Hattangadi <[email protected]> wrote:>>> 'One droplet of the Vedic ambrosia is enough> to make one not> only taste immortality but swim or drown in its> ocean's expanse'.

Namaste Sunder-ji,Now you have destroyed my delusion.Here I am struggling to be academic and you put up asingle verse that has the tears flowing.

I think Indra has been firing his lightning bolts atthose black clouds again and released the rains.

Both you and Adi-ji sent me pictures of GoddessMeenakshi with the green parrot representing theVedas. I told also of the strange appearance of greenparrots in our garden recently.

If Benjamin comes by this way....... Benjamin has beenposting British news stories lately........look outfor the national news story today that SouthernEngland is being invaded by green parrots. Thousandare joining flocks and pushing out our crows etc.

What can be the meaning of such strange omens????

Ken Knight

Message 23416 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:18 amSubject: June topic: mAyA in the vedas: Rbhus are in here somewhere

Namaste all,This is not the posting that me, ken, really wanted todo. I was really looking forward to the one on theRbhus.For the last week, every time I tried to work on whatto write distractions came in, books went missing.Then, finally at the weekend, with several hours free,www.flaez.ch was impoosible to load( can someone please check it from your end ).So I cut out all I wanted to write about chariots andmind-yoked hymns and the following is what appeared.I trust it is of use.

Ken Knight



In RV X.177 we discovered that it is through the purediscrimination of heart and mind that we are able todiscern unity in the apparent diversity, the mAyA ofthe asura. Then, in a variety of hymns, we saw howIndra has the power of mAyA to take up many forms toovercome that which covers the truth.He is the power of meditation and also the'thought-bestirrer'., codayanmati, RV VIII. 46.19.The brahman ( sung prayer) makes him expand:

'Thou becomest great by virtue of the sacred word'X.50.4 also I.80.1 vii.19.11 III.34.1

X.119.5aháM táSTeva vandhúram páry acaami hRdaá matím |

'As a wright bends a chariot-seat so round my heart Ibend (shape beautifully)the hymn'

(It is at that point I want to go on about chariotsbut I reckon the gods will seize up my hard-disk.)

So:

We will remember from earlier postings the hymn, RVI.12.6 which states: 'By Agni Agni is inflamed.'Imagine lighting a fire. The fire is already in thewood waiting to be released. By bringing the flame tothe wood the fire is released. That is the meaning.The Self 'in' us awaits the Supreme Self.

Again,we have seen in earlier postings that Agni hasthree main forms which he assumes: the Sun, lightningand the fire of the hearth .

RV.III.20.2ágne trií te vaájinaa trií Sadhásthaa tisrás te jihvaáRtajaata puurviíH |tisrá u te tanvò devávaataas taábhir naH paahi gíroáprayuchan ||

'Three are thy powers, O Agni, three thy stations,three are thy tongues, yea, many, Child of Order!Three bodies hast thou which the Gods delight in: withthese protect our hymns with care unceasing.'

And it is through the magical powers, mAyA mAyinAM,that this magic is achieved.:

ágne bhuúriiNi táva jaatavedo déva svadhaavo.amR'tasya naáma |yaásh ca maayaá maayínaaM vishvaminva tvé puurviíH



saMdadhúH pRSTabandho ||

'O Agni, many are the names thou bearest, immortal,God, Divine, and Jatavedas.And many charms of charmers, All-Inspirer! have theylaid in thee, Lord of true attendants!'

This idea is extended in the Atharva Veda XII.1.19-20:'There lies the fire in the earth and in plants; andwaters carry it,The fire is in stone, and there is fire deep withinmen, a fire in the kine, and a fire in the horses;The same fire that burns in the heavens, the mid-airbelongs to this fire divine.Men kindle this fire that bears the oblation and lovesthe melted butter.'

This process of immanence and transcendence throughdivision is easy to understand but not so easy toobserve as we become lost in the appearance ofproducts of the division.

Not surprisingly, from the hymns seen so far, there isa link between Rta and mAyA. It is through the mAyAthat the world order is continually expressed throughapparent differentiation and this lawful process isseen as magical in human sight.

maayaá vaam mitraavaruNaa diví shritaá suúryo jyótishcarati citrám aáyudham |tám abhréNa vRSTyaá guuhatho diví párjanya drapsaámádhumanta iirate ||

'Your magic, Mitra-Varuna, resteth in the heaven. TheSun, the wondrous weapon, cometh forth as light.Ye hide him in the sky with cloud and flood of rain,and water-drops, Parjanya! full of sweetness flow.'

This magical, creative and artistic understanding ofmAyA is taken up in Puranic tales of the architect ofthe gods, Maya, who served the asuras and was a masterof mAyA skills and built the three celestial citiesfor the protection of the asuras. People may like topick up on a tale of this craftsmanship in MBhIII.23.12.

The ASvins are known as mAyAvin because they haveunderstood this universal force and fill theirchariot, rathaM, with magical power, purumAyaM.Griffith just calls this 'wondrous car.', I preferrathaM purumAyaM, sounds much better.

RV.I.119.1



A vAM rathaM purumAyaM manojuvaM jIrAshvaM yajñiyaMjIvase huve |sahasraketuM vaninaM shatadvasuM shruSTIvAnaMvarivodhAmabhi prayaH ||

'Hither, that I may live, I call unto the feast yourwondrous car, thought-swift, borne on by rapid steeds.With thousand banners, hundred treasures, pouringgifts, promptly obedient, bestowing ample room.'

And it is that skilful, artistry of mAyA displayed bythe ASvins that is repeated in the story of the Rbhus.

For this story go to:http://www.vedah.com/org/literature/rigVeda/gov/rbhus.asp#1You will find there an interpretation of the storythat requires discussion but I feel that I shouldlimit this posting initially otherwise we will soon bedistracted from the use of mAyA in this context.

We need to note that it was through their (Rbhus)skilful use of mAyA that they earned their place amongthe gods. This power is then sub-divided into thepowers of speech, sháciibhiH, power of vision, dhiyAand mental ability, manasA:

RV.III.60.1,2ihéha vo mánasaa bandhútaa nara ushíjo jagmur abhítaáni védasaa |yaábhir maayaábhiH prátijuutivarpasaH saúdhanvanaayajñíyam bhaagám aanashá ||

'Here is your ghostly kinship, here, O Men: they camedesirous to these holy rites with store of wealth,With wondrous arts, whereby, with schemes to meet eachneed, Ye gained, Sudhanvan's Sons! your share insacrifice.'

yaábhiH sháciibhish camasaáM+ ápiMshata yáyaa dhiyaágaám áriNiita cármaNaH |yéna hárii mánasaa nirátakSata téna devatvám RbhavaHsám aanasha ||

' The mighty powers wherewith. ye formed the chalices,the thought by which ye drew the cow from out thehide,The intellect wherewith ye wrought the two BaySteeds,-through these, O Rbhus, ye attained divinity.'

Because of my interests, the vast majority of theRgvedic hymns are about speech and the four levels ofspeech of which most people only understand one



quarter:RV. I. 164.1'Speech hath been measured out in four divisions, theBrahmans who have understanding know them.Three kept in close concealment cause no motion; ofspeech, men speak only the fourth division.'

As our common language is enclosed in that fourthdivision we cloud the meaning of the mantras. We aremisusing the power of mAyA but that is not the faultof mAyA. We cannot blame the rope for our fear ofsnakes.If we catch a glimpse of the other, inherent levels ofmeaning as discussed in the postings on YAska, thenwith the artistry of speech unveiled by theRbhus,sháciibhiH, we are able to reverse the 'outward'thrust of division and return on an 'inward' approachto the unity that is all-pervading.This would lead us naturally to a discussion on theuse of the mahAvAkyas and 'neti, neti' but a look atthe archives will show that we have done this verythoroughly in the past.

It is at this point that we may be able to introduceonce more the book of P.D Shastri. He notes thatwhenever the word mAyA is used in the Rgveda there isthe idea of mystery, what he calls:'a mysterious power of will.'....saMkalpa Sakti oriccha Sakti.

So, following his approach, we may take this to be inaccord with 'That One' willing to become 'many' as thetradition comes to us. Similarly, the gods 'will' tobecome enclosed in different forms so that there powermay manifest. This is in accord with Rta andaccomplished through the power of mAyA.

It is easy to see then how we can imply a meaning ofmAyA being a deceptive power, but to see it as beingonly a power of deception is to miss its lawful placein the order of things, as the veil which reveals thatunderlying 'will', iccha.

Message 23418 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <[email protected]>Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:56 amSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the vedas: Rbhus are in here somewhere

--- In [email protected], ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>wrote:



>>> It is easy to see then how we can imply a meaning of> mAyA being a deceptive power, but to see it as being> only a power of deception is to miss its lawful place> in the order of things, as the veil which reveals that> underlying 'will', iccha.>

Namaste, Ken-ji

Wonderfully said! "The veil which reveals that underlying 'will',icchA". And that is the meaning of "mama mAyA" in B.G. VII - 14!

Thank you, Ken.

PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda.profvk

Message 23430 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:33 pmSubject: June topic: mAyA in the vedas: serpents: nice,nasty or neutral?

Namaste all,A bit more for the filing cabinet.

Ken Knight

Serpents: nice,nasty or neutral?

The later development and translations of the wordmAyA as delusion and deceit is not dominant in theRgveda. I would suggest that this imposition comesfrom Sayana's commentary where he uses the word'kapaTa', deception, as a meaning of mAyA.How we understand the 'covering' or 'veiling' aspectof mAyA depends upon whether we like 'snakes' or not.When we are deluded by the superimposition, adhyAsa,of the snake on the rope, do we run towards it andstroke it because we like snakes or do we run away?Neither action is appropriate as there is no snake.We may see the world as an awful place from which wewish to escape as soon as possible or we may love itso much that we wish to be born again and again.

No one could accuse the Maruts of being demons and yetwe find them being described as ahimAyAH., serpents'powers, because they 'robe themselves in the height ofheaven' as clouds which may cover the sun but alsoproduce wealth-giving rain:RV.X.63.4



nRcákSaso ánimiSanto arháNaa bRhád devaáso amRtatvámaanashuHjyotiírathaa áhimaayaa ánaagaso divó varSmaáNaM vasatesvastáye

'Looking on men, ne'er slumbering, they (Maruts) bytheir deserts attained as gods to lofty immortality.Borne on refulgent cars, sinless (anAgaso), withserpents' powers (ahimAyA), they robe them, for ourwelfare, in the height of heaven.'

The word ahimAyAH , with the prefix 'ahi' meaningserpent, very much demonstrates the essential thesisof mAyA being the appearance of many different formsor colours and patterns, like a snake, but some maywant it to be interpreted in the negative sense of thealleged guile of the snake. However, it may alsorefer to the wisdom and skillful artistry of thesnake. There is room for the exegete to use whichevermeaning suits best the exegete's intention. We mustalways be careful not to attribute evil or good to aneutral power but only to its usage, as has beenmentioned several times already.

The intention of the poet is made clear in thisparticular hymn by the addition of the word anAgaso,sinless, so there can be no negative meaning in thiscontext.

That mAyA is a necessary function in the universeperceived by the seers is explained by the second ofthe following stanzas which gives it the role ofguardian: RV. V.63.6-7

vaácaM sú mitraavaruNaav íraavatiim parjányash citraáMvadati tvíSiimatiim |abhraá vasata marútaH sú maayáyaa dyaáM varSayatamaruNaám arepásam ||

'Refreshing is your voice, O Mitra-Varuna: Parjanyasendeth out a wondrous mighty voice.With magic power the Maruts clothe them with theclouds. Ye Two cause Heaven to rain, the red, thespotless One.'

dhármaNaa mitraavaruNaa vipashcitaa vrataá rakSetheásurasya maayáyaa |Rténa víshvam bhúvanaM ví raajathaH suúryam aá dhatthodiví cítryaM rátham ||

'Wise, with your Law and through the Asura's magicpower (mAyA) ye guard the ordinances, Mitra-Varuna.Ye by eternal Order govern all the world. Ye set the



Sun in heaven as a refulgent car.'

The link here with Rta, the eternal law holding theuniverse in order, places mAyA at the first steps inthe emanation of Tad Ekam. (Notice also that in thisstanza we have both dharma and Rta being used. Anycomment on this?)This link is further illustrated by an earlier versein the same hymn, RV. V.63.4:

maayaá vaam mitraavaruNaa diví shritaá suúryo jyótishcarati citrám aáyudham |tám abhréNa vRSTyaá guuhatho diví párjanya drapsaámádhumanta iirate ||

'Your magic, Mitra-Varuna, resteth (is fixed) in theheaven (the Father), The Sun, the wondrous weapon,cometh forth as light.Ye hide him in the sky with cloud and flood of rain,and water-drops, Parjanya! full of sweetness flow. '

The words diví shritA have the meaning of being fixed('resteth' in the Griffith translation) in the Fatherwith the latter being but a name for the primalauthority.

Verse 6 above begins vaácaM sú mitraavaruNaavíraavatiim, 'refreshing is your voice', a simpleexample of sound being central to the poet's vision.However, there may be more subtle intentions here inrelating the 'voice' with the 'flow of sweetness' inverse 4. The subtle feeling of love may be far sweeterthan the words we use to express it until we can learnto craft our speech artistically.This connection between fine, well crafted orrevealed speech and the quality of refreshing'sweetness' is made in many of the world's ancientsocieties. Psalm 119 of the Old Testament is, I wouldsuggest, a Vedic hymn in style from beginning to endand encapsulates much that we have discussed.This is something that the Rbhus understood. Throughtheir own beautiful singing they crafted the chariot.As do those who hear the sweetness and beauty of theWord and sing it for the benefit of all.RV. IX.10 6-9ápa dvaáraa matiinaám pratnaá RNvanti kaarávaH |vR'SNo hárasa aayávaH ||samiiciinaása aasate hótaaraH saptájaamayaH |padám ékasya píprataH ||naábhaa naábhiM na aá dade cákSush cit suúrye sácaa |kavér ápatyam aá duhe ||abhí priyaá divás padám adhvaryúbhir gúhaa hitám |suúraH pashyati cákSasaa ||



'The singing-men (kAravaH) of ancient time open thedoors of sacred songs,-Men, for the mighty to accept.Combined in close society sit the seven priests, thebrother-hood,Filling the station of the One.He gives us kinship with the Gods, and with the Sununites our eye:The Sage's offspring hath appeared.The Sun with his dear eye beholds that quarter of theheavens which priestsHave placed within the sacred cell.'

What Griffiths translates as 'the sacred cell' is'guhA', that is the hidden place, the secret place;the depths of the heart maybe.

Message 23431 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:34 pmSubject: Re: June topic: mAyA in the vedas- ICCHA SHAKTI?

Our most beloved kenji observes

It is easy to see then how we can imply a meaning ofmAyA being a deceptive power, but to see it as beingonly a power of deception is to miss its lawful placein the order of things, as the veil which reveals thatunderlying 'will', iccha.

our most respected Professorji responds ...

Wonderfully said! "The veil which reveals that underlying 'will',icchA". And that is the meaning of "mama mAyA" in B.G. VII - 14!

Iccha ! Iccha shakti!! wow!

for days on end our professorji has been delighting us all withverses from Adi shankara's Saundarya Lahari !

The central figure of this wonderful tantric text is none other thanSree LALITA Tripura Sundari, the divine Goddess !

In her four hands , Sree Lalita Devi holds sugarcane-bow, flower-arrows, Pasha(noose) and Ankusha(goad).

Noose (Pasa) represent Iccha-Shakti, which is the bondage causing thedistinction between the individual self and the Supreme Spirit



(Svatma-rupa-bheda-bandhana).

The sugarcane bow and the five flowry arrows(iksucapa-prasuna-sara-pancaka) represent Kriya-Shakti which is the cause of attachment(Avarjana) to things outside one's self (Svabhinna). The sense ofthis is that it is the Shaktis- Iccha, Jnana, and Kriya which inobedience to Her behest assume the forms of Pasa and the like andremain in Her service (Tadupasanam acaranti).

" The resplendent on holding in her hand the noose (Pasa) which isWill (Iccha-Shakti), the Goad (Ankusa) which is knowledge (Jnana-Shakti) and the arrows and the bow which is Action (Kriya-Shakti). "

is this not a wonderful explanation for Devi as MAHA-MAYA?

http://www.aadhyashakti.com

Salutations to devi!!

Message 23447 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:09 pmSubject: June topic: mAyA in the vedas: serpents: last one

Namaste all,I will post something tomorrow to conclude properlybut this must be the last main posting as July isnearly here. There can, of course, be no conclusionto something so embedded in the Vedas. So thefollowing is merely a signpost for further enquiry.

Ken Knight

We began with RV.X.177 which is dedicated to mAyAbhedaand have taken from that the possibility that in theRgvedic Samhita context, mAyA is to do with the powerof division. This is a neutral power unaffected by theintentions of the gods, demons and men that aresuperimposed upon that power. Each of them hear the'dadada' of thunder differently in accordance withtheir function in whole, harmonious system of things.

As long as we 'see' difference without understandingthe essential, neutral power behind it, then we willbe caught up with the action, ahamkAra, and qualifythe action as good or bad, nice or nasty. Our personaldecision to label events and things with 'I like' and'I don't like'....our main activity it wouldseem.......is our delusion and nothing to do with



mAyA.

The demons can appear to halt the processes of natureand change their appearance at will by using that samepower of the gods to perform their deceptions …mAyAand mAyinaH. And in return the gods use that samepower to overcome the demons.RV. I.51. 4-5tvám apaám apidhaánaavRNor ápaádhaarayaH párvatedaánumad vásu |vRtráM yád indra shávasaávadhiir áhim aád ít suúryaMdivy aárohayo dRshé ||

'Thou hast unclosed the prisons of the waters; thouhast in the mountain seized the treasure rich ingifts.When thou hadst slain with might the dragon Vrtra,thou, Indra, didst raise the Sun in heaven for all tosee.'

tvám maayaábhir ápa maayíno .adhamaH svadhaábhir yéádhi shúptaav ájuhvatatvám pípror nRmaNaH praárujaH púraH prá RjíshvaanaMdasyuhátyeSv aavitha

'With wondrous might thou blewest enchanter fiendsaway, with powers celestial those who called on theein jest.Thou, hero-hearted, hast broken down Pipru's forts,and helped Rjisvan when the Dasyus were struck dead.'

RV I.11.7maayaábhir indra maayínaM tváM shúSNam ávaatiraH |vidúS Te tásya médhiraas téSaaM shrávaaMsy út tira ||

'The wily Susna, Indra! thou o'er-threwest with thywondrous powers.The wise beheld this deed of thine: now go beyondtheir eulogies.'

I.32.4yád indraáhan prathamajaám áhiinaam aán maayínaamáminaaH prótá maayaáH |aát suúryaM janáyan dyaám uSaásaM taadiítnaa shátruMná kílaa vivitse ||

'When, Indra, thou hadst slain the dragon's firstborn,and overcome the charms of the enchanters,Then, giving life to Sun and Dawn and Heaven, thoufoundest not one foe to stand against thee.'

V.30.6túbhyéd eté marútaH sushévaa árcanty arkáM sunvánty



ándhaH |áhim ohaanám apá aasháyaanam prá maayaábhirmaayínaM sakSad índraH ||

'These blissful Maruts sing their psalm to praisethee, and pour to thee libation of the Soma.Indra with wondrous powers subdued the Dragon, theguileful lurker who beset the waters.'

It is by concentrating upon the negativesuperimposition, the deceptive games of the demons onmAyA, that later writers, and western translators,come up with 'illusion' as the meaning of mAyA. Butthis is not the emphasis in the Rgveda. As a neutralpower, bringing about division but transcendingdivision itself, nothing can be spoken or writtenabout it. It could be described as anirvacaniya….nowwhere have I heard that word before?....to use laterlanguage.It does not matter how great the power of the mAyinaHappears to be, nor how great the cleverness andinsight of the wise, dhIrah; none can overcome thesupreme will of Tad Ekam which manifests through Rta.

RV X .73.5mándamaana Rtaád ádhi prajaáyai sákhibhir índraiSirébhir ártham |aábhir hí maayaá úpa dásyum aágaan míhaH prá tamraáavapat támaaMsi ||

'Glad, for the race that rests on holy Order, withfriends who hasten to their goal, hath IndraWith these his magic powers assailed the Dasyu: hecast away the gloomy mists, the darkness.'

RV III.56.1ná taá minanti maayíno ná dhiíraa vrataá devaánaamprathamaá dhruvaáNi |ná ródasii adrúhaa vedyaábhir ná párvataa ninámetasthivaáMsaH ||

'Not men of magic skill, not men of wisdom impair theGods' first steadfast ordinances.Ne'er may the earth and heaven which know not malice,nor the fixed hills, be bowed by sage devices.'

It would seem to be that the misuse of that power,mAyA, can appear to bring about a de-stabilisation ofthe universal harmony of Rta while the use of thatsame power re-establishes that harmony. But inReality, nothing can alter that which is establishedby Rta for it transcends any such alteration. It is anappearance only and that appearance is the power of



mAyA, the neutral power of division, which isfulfilling the impulse of the Supreme Power, the willtowards diversity while the transcendent unity isneither added to nor diminished.AS we heard in an earlier posting:

RV.II.35 1-3úpem asRkSi vaajayúr vacasyaáM cáno dadhiita naadyógíro me |apaáM nápaad aashuhémaa kuvít sá supéshasas karatijóSiSad dhí ||

'Eager for spoil my flow of speech I utter: may theFloods' Child accept my songs with favour.Will not the rapid Son of Waters make them lovely, forhe it is who shall enjoy them?'

imáM sv àsmai hRdá aá sútaSTam mántraM vocema kuvídasya védat |apaáM nápaad asuryàsya mahnaá víshvaany aryó bhúvanaajajaana ||

'To him let us address the song well-fashioned, forthfrom the heart. Shall he not understand it'The friendly Son of Waters by the greatness of Godheadhath produced all things existing.'

sám anyaá yánty úpa yanty anyaáH samaanám uurváMnadyàH pRNanti |tám uu shúciM shúcayo diidivaáMsam apaáM nápaatampári tasthur aápaH ||

'Some floods unite themselves and others join them:the sounding rivers fill one common storehouse.On every side the bright Floods have encompassed thebright resplendent Offspring of the Waters.'

Message 23449 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "adi_shakthi16" <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:20 amSubject: mAyA in the vedas: - A spectacular Presentation!

Our most beloved Ken Knightji !

For a little over four weeks now, you held thisaudience 'spellbound ' with your brilliant exposition of MaYa in thevedas.

You managed to convert Curious onlookers into 'serious' studentsof Veda in a brief period of time - and you did all thiseffortlessly in a 'subtle' but sure manner ...



1) first, by tracing the etymology of the words !explainingthe 'root' of the words and their derivatives and compounds. and alsoexplaining how shift in meanings can occur for the same word by theclever use of Sandhis! i am still waiting for someone to answer yourquery on MAYABHEDA ! IS IT MAYA +BHEDA OR MAYA + ABHEDA? (Sunderji,can you solve this riddle?)

2) Secondly, i loved the way you quoted the various hymns by givingappropriate references for example how the word 'MAYA' occurs in thevarious brahmanas of the rg veda and in what context the word isused ! Like a skilled magician you unveiled the decpetive power ofMaya in VEda.

3) For the longest time, i have heard Vedas being recited and chantedand the vedic rituals performed ! this is the first time, i have readall the vedic deities like 'agni', 'indra'. 'ashwins' , 'rbhus' etcexplained in such great detail and in such an interesting way. Andone member Sridhar pointed out rather honestly, Indra was alwaysconsidered a 'pompous' god full of false ego ! But, by narrating thestory of Indra and Vrtra , you brought out the transcedental meaningof this ancient God, Indra!

4) I must confess that at times your presentation was a bit tooscholarly with generous quotations of sanskrit hymns but theimportant point is you did explain the meanings in a detailed mannerso that even a layman can understand and appreciate the beauty ofthese classic hymns.

5) Your citing of authors and the bibiliographic references was alsovery much appreciated! on my own, i would have never read Griffith,Sayana, Raimond Pannikar, Wilson , Sastry, Kashyap etc.... as youhave rightly said, There is no conclusion to the study of vedas- thisis an eternal study - a continuous exploration and on going journeyregarding the Cosmic Order (Rtm) and fascinating !

6) who said vedas are 'dry' and boring? it all depends on how it ispresented. By narrating stories and introducing 'humor' , even vedichymns can taste like the celestial drink 'soma' !

6) Krishna says in the Bhagvat Gita - of all the vedas, i am the samaveda meaning thereby that it is the best. But by your spectacularpresentation of rig veda , one can say rig veda is in no wayinferior!

7)And you mentioned about hindus being born in the tradition andhinted that they are fortunate ! this is partially true.

But i habve read with my own eyes how the 'purusha sukta' hymn hasbeen translated by the hindus in seceral different ways toeither 'favor' or 'criticize' the caste system! But the purushasukta and the sri sukta hymns are full of beauty and lyricism and



their esoteric meanings are lost in clumsy translations!

8) But the beauty of any presentation is it should create a appetitefor more of the same ! are we hungry for more of Maya in the vedas?the answer is a YES!!! Kenji, you can pick up the thread from whereyou left of after your return from the trip to the mountains!

9) and finally, it was nice to see you acknowledging the responses ofall the members ( including me) with grace and humility. also, takingthe time to answer any questions that arose in the course of thispresentation!

10) all in all, a very enriching experience!

finally, you had mentioned about the hearing of a 'sound' in yourinner ear during your Indian sojourn and identified it as the soundof 'veena' the cestial instrument held by Saraswati Sevi, the Goddessof Learning!

Some of these names of Sree Saraswati devi!

1) Jihvagravasini- one who resides on the TONGUE.

2) Kavijihvagravasini- one who resides on the tongue of poets.

3) Vani - great speaker

4) Smritasaki- one who has great memory

5) Pratibha - one who possesses great intelligence

in closing , here are hymns from rig veda honoring Saraswati

A Hymn To Saraswati, Rig Veda 1:3, Verses 10-12May Sarasvati, the purifierrich in wealth - the intellectHer treasure - desire our sacrifice.Inspirer of the truthful,rouser of the noble minded, maySarasvati accept our worship.Sarasvati, mighty ocean,she rouses up with her lightAnd brightens all intellects.

Saraswati RV 7:95THIS stream Sarasvati with fostering current comes forth, our suredefence, our fort of iron.As on a car, the flood flows on, surpassing in majesty and might allother waters.Pure in her course from mountains to the ocean, alone of streamsSarasvati hath listened.Thinking of wealth and the great world of creatures, she poured forNahusa her milk and fatness.



Friendly to man he grew among the women, a strong young Steer amidthe Holy Ladies.He gives the fleet steed to our wealthy princes, and decks theirbodies for success in battle.May this Sarasvati be pleased and listen at this our sacrifice,auspicious Lady,When we with reverence, on our knees, implore her close-knit towealth, most kind to those she loveth.These offerings have ye made with adoration: say this, Sarasvati, andaccept our praises;And, placing us under thy dear protection, may we approach thee, as atree, for shelter.For thee, O Blest Sarasvati, Vasistha hath here unbarred the doors dsacred Order.Wax, Bright One, and give strength to him who lauds thee. Preserve usevermore, ye Gods, with blessings.

**********************************************************************In eternal gratitude !

Message 23452 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:03 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] mAyA in the vedas: - A spectacular Presentation!

--- Ranjeet Sankar <[email protected]> wrote:

Namaste Ranjit,

> After your trip to the mountains, could you please> take us on a similar> enchanting trip through Shri sha~Nkara's> 'upadeshasahaShri'?

I am sure that there are many on this site who arebetter qualified than I to do this. When I previouslybegan such postings...I think they are in the filessection somewhere..I was posting three differenttranslations of the shlokas for people to use in theirown study. Translations always have different emphasesand comparison can be useful. I was working throughthe prose section without any comment of my own.

My own personal study later this summer will be ofUp.Sa. 18.202. This relates to our June topic as I wasthen frequently pointing towards the importance of thetriad of the revealed word, Sruti, directexperience,anubhava and reasoning, yukti.

Shankara is here writing about the use of such srutias 'Tat tvam asi'. The objection to him states, in



17.201,:'No concrete experience, like concretesatisfaction that follows from eating, can arise fromthe mere hearing of the sentence. And to analyse asentence ( in the hope of getting a concreteexperience from it ) is like trying to make milkpudding from cow dung.'

Shankara replies:'It is true that all sentences conveying informationabout the not-self yield abstract knowledge only. Butit is not so with sentences about the inmost Self, forthere are exceptions, as in the case of the one whorealised he was the tenth.'This being a reference to the story of the tenth mannot counting himself.Anybody who felt the heart open, at any single pointin the recent Rgvedic study, will understand that.

So from this point we could consider IshTa siddhi:'Even verbal knowledge can be direct knowledge,because it can concern that which is immediately anddirectly known, as in the case of a human sentenceproclaiming the self-luminosity of the Self.' There isa commentary on this by SatchidAnandendra, The Methodof Vedanta p.725.

You have got me going already.

So I had better stop but leave you with Up.Sa. 17.79-81, that sums up much of what I was trying topresent in the June topic:'Though not doing anything, the Self does everything.Though standing still, it outpaces those who run. Asit appears through its incomprehensible power of mAyAto be omnipotent, it is thought to be manifoldalthough in truth it is (homogenous), undergoes nobirth ( and assumes no form).Being merely the Witness, I am the Self, non-dual,actionless, beyond the factors of action, causing thewhole world to revolve by my mere proximity, like amagnet or like a king, being Myself the only Witness.One should dwell on the thought 'I am Absolute(Brahman), without attributes, actionless, constant,free from the pairs of opposites, free from allblemish, pure, enlightened, liberated.'Translation Alston.

Aren't we lucky to have such teaching????

Ken Knight



Message 23454 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Peter M" <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:33 amSubject: RE: [advaitin] June topic: mAyA in the vedas: serpents: last one

Dear Ken,

As a relative newcomer to the list, can I thank you for what you havewritten and the wisdom / insights you have shared. You have certainlyawakened a sense of 'wonder' and enthusiasm in me, particularly to discovermore about the Rig Veda. Your enthusiasm is contagious.

Many thanks and best wishes,

Peter

-----Original Message-----From: ken knight [mailto:[email protected]]Sent: 29 June 2004 22:10To: [email protected]: [advaitin] June topic: mAyA in the vedas: serpents: last one

Namaste all,I will post something tomorrow to conclude properlybut this must be the last main posting as July isnearly here. There can, of course, be no conclusionto something so embedded in the Vedas. So thefollowing is merely a signpost for further enquiry.

Ken KnightMessage 23456 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "advaitins" <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:59 amSubject: Encomia for Sri Ken Knight

Namaste,

The moderators join all the members who have articulated thesentiments of appreciation for Ken-ji's postings. Hopefully, some daywe shall be able to listen to the sounds of the hymns over the cyberspace.

Ken-ji has his own web-site too, which members should visit:

http://www.nonameorform.co.uk/links.html

Wishing Ken-ji a well-deserved rest, and a safe return,refreshed to keep us in the warm glow of the Vedic hymns.



List ModeratorsMessage 23461 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Lady Joyce" <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:22 pmSubject: Re: [advaitin] mAyA in the vedas: - A spectacular Presentation!

Namaste Kenji and All:

Although you are by no means finished and most of usare just beginning, on the exploration of the first ofthe One of the Many, this does seem a good time tostop and say thank you, thank you, thank you:-) It isquite clear that you have spent many hours lovinglylaboring over your posts and your understanding whichyou have so generously shared with us.

Adiji is correct in that you have held some of us spellboundwith your exposition, but let us not forget the source of thespell, the One from whom all breathes forth! As you said inone of your first posts, it is the attitude with which one studiesthe Vedas that counts the most. May we all approach withrespect, humility, and pure devotion.

Like you I will be going away next week, to the mountains in NE Pennsylvaniawhere I grew up to visit my family and stay in a cabin near my brother by alake where he now lives and where I swam many times as a child.While there I will also swim in the ocean RgVeda. As you proceededall I did was watch from the shore or at best tread water. All right,at best, stick my toes in the surf :-) I have takenyour posts and some of the wonderful responses and transferredthem to a text format which I can print out and take with me.

I am not sure why but something about this thread has been sacred,perhaps because while it has been scholarly indeed it has also beenpermeated with the devotion of those who authored and contributed,to whom I also offer my gratitude and namaskarams. You said that youwould provide both the simple for those of us without the scholarlybackround and you did that beautifully, and that you would providethe sanskrit text and deeper understanding for those who couldunderstand and you did that in a most excellent fashion, as attested toby those who knew enough to know that they did not understand!

A few days ago, I went for a walk in one of my favorite parks, knownas Playwicki Farm in recognition of what is believed to have beena town built by the Native American Indian of the Delaware and/or Lenapetribe. Getting two birds on the same branch, one singing and onewatching was not in the cards, but, what was in the tree was thissingle bird singing away at the top as the late afternoon melted intoevening, the moon quietly waiting her turn to shine into the night...



RV.III.20.2ágne trií te vaájinaa trií Sadhásthaa tisrás te jihvaáRtajaata puurviíH |tisrá u te tanvò devávaataas taábhir naH paahi gíroáprayuchan ||

'Three are thy powers, O Agni, three thy stations,three are thy tongues, yea, many, Child of Order!Three bodies hast thou which the Gods delight in: withthese protect our hymns with care unceasing.'

http://www.omshaantih.com/Scriptures/Rig%20Veda/I.164/1.htm



With love and gratitude,

JoyceMessage 23463 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "ymoharir" <[email protected]>Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:03 pmSubject: Re: mAyA in the vedas: - A spectacular Presentation!

Dear Adi-Ji:

Indeed this has been a very interesting puzzle for ages?

If maayaa was "TRUE - sat" then she would not have been bound throughbrahma and if she is "not true - asat" than one would not have beenable to experience it either. That is why aacharya callsit "anrivacaniiya - not expressable in a words"

sannaapsannaa.apyumayaatmikaa no bhinnaapyabhinnaapyubhayaatmikaa no |saa~Ngaapyana~Ngaa pyubhayaatmikaa nomahaadbhutaa.anirvacaniiyaruupaa |||| vivekacuuDaamaNi 111 ||

I also like the finer distinction proposed by vidyaaharaNa inpaNcadashii.

cidaanandamayabrahmapratibimbasamanvitaa |tamorajaHsattvaguNaa prakR^itirdvividhaa ca saa ||sattvashuddhavishuddhibhyaaM maayavidye ca te mate |maayaabimbo vashikR^itya taaM syaatsarvaj~na iishvaraH ||



Liberal meaning – pakR^iti is the one who with the brahmaa's desire(pratiicchhaa) after having been balanced with triguNa getsexpressed. sattvaguNa expressed as "pure – shuddha" is known asmaayaa and "impure – malina" expression of prakR^iti is aviddyaa.Thus the sarvaj~na ishvara keeps maayaa in the reflection.

Please feel free to correct my limited understanding of maaya asbeing bound through reflection of that trikaalaatiita satya.

May be this will help us understand the maayaa in general.

Finally, I must thank Kan-ji for taking on the task to explore thevast subject matter of maayaa.

Regards,

Dr. Yadu

Message 23469 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 1:29 amSubject: June topic: mAyA in the vedas: last post

Namaste all,Thank you all for your postings. Yesterday's free timedisappeared when the plumber came. He likes to talkwhile he works. He has a mega-stammer. He is a friend.That combination was enough defeat the intention toanswer each of you individually.

Why does Lord Krishna say 'Of the Vedas I am theSamaveda'? Others may like to comment. My own view isthat although the Samaveda uses many of the Rks of theRgVeda, it is in the chanting that the essence, oressential meaning, can be heard. Must be more to itthan that though so I would welcome other members'insights.

Thank you for picking up the mAyA-bheda or mAyA-abhedaproblem. In the context of RV X.177 they would bothwork.This highlights the problem of context and intentionof both speaker and listener. Words can change theircontextual meaning from generation to generation andwe can see this in our own times as explained with theword 'gay'. We need to consider the question as towhether words have an essential meaning, whichtranscends contextual change; the ropeness of the ropeand the delusion of the snake.



I had hoped to go on to the use of mAyA in the AtharvaVeda....not surprisingly the Sama and Yajur use mAyAin the same way as the Rgveda....where the mysteriousand magical element becomes more emphasized in thechaging social context. Then the word can be followedthrough the Brahmanas to Upanishads and commentarieswhere it finally becomes Shankara's anirvacaniya.

However, now is the time to pass the flame of sruti onto the July topic. Thank you all again for all yourhelp and support, above all though, my gratitude goesto Sri Anandamayee and Dr Kavairaj, without whom nosuch study would have been possible by myself.

'The Veda is the lark's morning trill of humanityawakening to the consciousness of its greatness.'(RgVedic Aesthetics P.S.Shastri Bharatiya VidyaPrakashan Delhi 1988. p.9 when he is quotingBrunahofer.)'When I sing all the sleep comes off my eyes.' (Sinnah Kamara, a 10 years old, blind girl from SierraLeone writing 'A Life in the Day', a Sunday Timesnewspaper feature, November 16th. 2003)

Enjoy the song

Ken Knight

Message 23470 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: ken knight <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 1:35 amSubject: Re: [advaitin] June topic: Personal stuff

Namaste all,Very many thanks to you all for your encouraging poststoday and to those of you who have helped push mealong throughout the month. Especial thanks to themoderators for initiating the study and for yourdirection. As I said at the beginning, 'This is theadvaitin site Jim, but not as we know it.' May normallife return quickly.

Purely at the personal level, you can have no idea ofthe agonies I have been through after each posting,questioning whether anything of use had been written.The first section had been pre-written and was tweakedon the e-mail but once we had begun to use the textsthen it was all written on screen from notes madeduring my daily study sessions. I was, as we say,flying by the seat of my pants. So far I have not



looked back at any posting so it will be interestingto see some time what appeared. No doubt there will bemany cringe-making moments.

Above all, my main concern has been that thetraditionally anchored and orthodox members of thissite would be disturbed by my study of such sacredtexts. If any have been unhappy then may I assure themthat I would not have begun the topic without therequest of the moderators, and, above that, theauthority given to speak from the heart that came frompeople in India in the distant and recent past.

The Vedas and India are very similar in that if youvisit them as a tourist with camera in hand, carryingbaggage from your everyday life, they will welcomeyou, let you take your photos to show your friends andhave souvenirs to keep and then you depart. But if youapproach them with respect and a kind of innocence,open to any direction they present to you, you willfind yourself embraced in something so fine, sosubtle, that at first you will not know what ishappening but only later will understanding emerge,precise and directly relevant.

Finally to the point some have made as to my academicapproach and scholarship; comments that I am surewould make the real academics on this site smilepatiently. I was never trying to produce some definedargument, just a general idea to toss into the firesof the Vedas to see what happened. Also there was noconsistency of record. I could never finally decidewhether to write Agni or agni as Sanskrit does not usecapitals and when transliterating 'A' does not meancapital letter. It was all a mess.

As to scholarship may I relate events of four yearsago for in them appear some real scholars.For some time I had known that my body was in serioustrouble with bowel cancer but for family reasons atthat time I did not want people to be hassled with ahospitalised husband and father. When the time wasright I decided to return to Varanasi for the firsttime for more than 30 years to give thanks to the cityfor wonderful people I had met there in the past.I went to Sri Anandamayee's ashram and sat in the roomwhere I had sat at her feet as a young man. In searchof some trace of the late Dr Gopinath Kaviraj I wentto the Banaras Hindu University where I met DrKamalesh Tripathi who had known him well. We metseveral times and one day he took me to meet someother professors.On that day I met Scholars.



They shone with insight and understanding. The mainadvaitin professor was the clearest light. Quitecorrectly he would not discuss spiritual matters inany language but Sanskrit although he was fluent inEnglish. My knowledge of Sanskrit is limited to thewritten page but meaning transcends words. Whensomeone speaks of scriptures without understandingthen the listener does not understand. In this casethough the meaning behind his words was clear. What anhonour it would be to be a pupil of such a scholar. Ihave never met his like in a Western University. Hewas a Scholar, a humble powerhouse whose heart andmind were burnished by real study and practice.

The body survived subsequent slashing and hacking bysurgeons, much to their surprise, especially as Irefused their kind offer of chemo and radio therapy.Battered the body may now be but for the next few daysit will be at my mercy. As I said initially, my maindelight is in sport and so as from tomorrow I will bewhooping with delight as I swoop down mountain trailson my bike, picking my way along sheep tracks highabove sea and valleys and sit with my wife and bordercollie in mountain streams, listening in the silence.

Thank you again for mails and encouragement.

Ken KnightMessage 23471 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #From: "Chittaranjan Naik" <[email protected]>Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 5:22 amSubject: Re: June topic: Personal stuff

Namaste Ken-ji,

It is with a sense of sadness as well as awe and admiration that Iread your post. My pranams to you. I shall try to remember themeanings of Maya and its nuances that you have illumined in yourexpositions as I attempt to carry forward the flame to this month'sdiscussions.

Warm regards,Chittaranjan

[Compiled as a token of gratitude to Ken Knight]



[compiled as a token of gratitude to ken knight]

Documents