debates - thursday 12 october 1989 mr speaker dondas took ... · fact that the legitimate rights...

DEBATES - Thursday 12 October 1989

Mr Speaker Dondas took the Chair at 10 am.

TABLED PAPER Publications Committee - Eleventh Report

Mr SETTER (Jingili): Mr Speaker, I· table the Eleventh Report of the Publications Committee and move that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

STATEMENT Coronation Hill

Mr COULTER (Mines and Energy): Mr Speaker, Territorians have been the victims of a giant hoax. We have been denied our right to make decisions on Territory economic development, Territory social development and Territory cultural development. To make it worse, these decisions have been made for us in Canberra for reasons that are almost entirely wrong in fact. I refer, of course, to the decision by federal Cabinet last week to put 98% of the so-called Conservation Zone into Kakadu National Park.

Mr Speaker, I table a map which was produced by one W. Wynne Williams in 1928 and I apologise for its large size. He describes the Coronation Hill area at that time as: 'Sandy and gravelly country, woolly butt and stringy-bark. Mostly bare sandstone with waterworn gorges, impossible for horses. Undulating stony country, woolly butt and stringy-bark, open forest gums and scrub'. This is the area which we are now talking about as part of Kakadu National Park. As the Chief Minister mentioned today, as Territorians we know that Mr Williams was right in 1928. The area has not changed one bit between then and now.

My comments about this region are not new. 5 years ago. On Tuesday 5 June 1984, as is Parliamentary Record, in comparing the wetlands Stage 2, I said:

I made similar comments recorded at page 391 of the of Stage 3 to those of

•.• However, these environments represent only 20% of Stage 3. The wetland areas of Stage 3 are not good examples of this type of environment and are restricted to the north of Stage 3 along the South Alligator flood plain. In comparison to the wetland areas of Cooinda and the South Alligator estuary in Kakadu Stage 1, the wetland areas of Stage 3 are simply not worthy of national park status.

This is nothing new. At that time, I was trying to get the message across about exactly the type of terrain we are talking about. Honourable members opposite know precisely what it is like and Senator Gareth Evans knows precisely what it is like. It is clapped-out buffalo country. No member opposite who has taken the trouble to traverse the area would honestly try to argue otherwise in this Assembly. If any member opposite would like to try, I would love to hear from him during the course of this debate.

I contribute this statement to the Legislative Assembly today and give all honourable members the chance to express their profound disappointment at the fact that the legitimate rights and aspirations of the Northern Territory have been entirely overridden by a federal government cynically seeking electoral advantage. In other words, the Prime Minister and the federal Cabinet have totally disregarded the stature and authority of the Northern Territory

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Legislative Assembly and all its elected members. The federal government has denied the Northern Territory any rights in this matter. The message from Canberra is that we are inconsequential, that what we say and what we want are irrelevant, and that laws generated in this Assembly are trivial and meaningless. We have been relegated to the role of bystanders in matters which are the prerogative of every state in the Commonwealth. We have been denied our constitutional rights. We have been treated like mugs and I stress that I am referring to all Territorians, no matter what their political persuasion.

Members of the opposition may seek to defend the actions of the federal government in this debate but they know deep in their hearts that federal Cabinet would have treated a Territory Labor government just as cynically and shabbily. Senator Collins, the self-acknowledged elder statesman of Territory Labor politics, admitted as much during remarkably frank media interviews last Friday. He said plainly that the federal Cabinet's decision was a disaster for the Territory and that it was taken for purely political reasons. He said that the interests of the Territory had been shunted aside, and that the Territory was a big loser and the big wjnn~rs were federal Ministers Richardson, Hand and West as well as our very own Warren Snowdon. If members of the opposition want to deny the truth of the sentiments expressed by Senator Collins, they risk the scorn of the Territory public. It is in their interest in this debate to take a Territory stance instead of their usual position of defending the Canberra line.

Mr Speaker, let us get back to the Coronation Hill hoax perpetrated by the federal government. Honourable members who know their Territory geogra,phy will have an acute understanding of the big lie. It is one that has been demonstrated nightly on television screens across the nation. It is the one showing basking crocodiles, Obiri Rock, Twin Falls and the Kakadu wetlands. They are nice, pretty pictures of some of the best of Kakadu National Park, but they are not pictures of Coronation Hill. Those areas are nowhere near Coronation Hill. Yet a lot of gullible Australians, aided and abetted by the federal Minister for the Environment and the Prime Minister, believe that they depict Coronation Hill. One media organisation not so easily hoodwinked is the national newspaper, The Australian. In a front page article last Saturday, The Australian said this:

The Top End of the Northern Territory that envelops Coronation Hill ••. has all the beauty of a dirty old sock. It's rough and hot. Some might call it downright ugly. It is dry, dusty, sparsely-vegetated, clapped-out feral buffalo country, about as far removed from the scenic wetlands, the wading birds and the balmy Top End ambience of a must-be-preserved national treasure as you can get.

Mr Speaker, how wrong was Mr Williams in 1928 when he described it as mostly bare sandstone with waterworn gorges and impossible for horses? Or when he said that it was sandy and gravelly country, with woolly butt and stringy-bark? Or when he said that it was open country with gums and scrub? That is exactly what it is. He was right. Somehow, Australians have taken a giant leap backwards since the pioneering days of 1928.

At the same time, many gullible Australians believe that Coronation Hill is the most sacred of Aboriginal places, largely because of television pictures showing rock paintings located somewhere else altogether. The' federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, Mr Hand, says that it is a site of staggering Aboriginal cultural significance. We have been taken for a ride.

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Mr Lanhupuy interjecting.

Mr COULTER: Do you say Coronation Hill, member for Arnhem? Mr Speaker, the honourable member interjects but will not clarify his position and did not nod his head, so I can take it that even he does not support it. We have been taken for a ride, and I know the member for Arnhem is too clever to get taken for a ride himself. He knows the truth.

Surely, it is reasonable to expect the national government to take decisions based on evidence, facts and truth. Sadly, that has not been the case on. this issue. I could spend from now till midnight detail ing the wealth of evidence that has been available to the federal Cabinet and which has so obviously been disregarded. Instead, let me give an overview.

I will deal firstly with the issue of the environmental value of the immediate Coronation Hill region. Until quite recently, the region was a cattle station. It is dotted with the evidence of past mining activity. Coronation Hill itself was a substantial uranium mine in the 1950s and 1960s. Any casual visitor can see that immediately. Virgin wilderness it is not.

The hardliners of the environmental lobby argue that Coronation Hill development is unacceptable because it would pose dangers to wetland catchments through the leaking of chemicals into watercourses. Yet there is no evidence of any damage caused by previous mining activity, which took place in the days when strict environmental controls did not apply. The environmental impact statement prepared by the Coronation Hill joint venturers addresses that issue in scientific detail. The development would involve retention of chemicals in so safe a manner as to make it virtually impossible for leakage to occur. There would be a greater chance of my winning Sportslotto, and I do not even buy tickets.

I note that the Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service is already announcing its plans to administer its new territory in the Territory, the absentee landlord of 20 000 km2, which is the 98% of the Conservation Zone now inC1uded in the national park. Those plans include listing of the area for world heritage status. Again, we can all be absolutely certain that such a course will be followed without discussion and consultation with the people of the Northern Territory.

I note also that the Prime Minister and Senator Richardson say that the economic value of the Coronation Hill region, based on tourism, will be greater than that which could be derived from mining. Where have we heard that before, Mr Speaker? Where did we hear that the federal government was to put $70m into Kakadu Stage 1, and what a great boom there would be? It spent enough to provide a couple of barbecue plates. That sort of talk is nonsense and we all know it.

At the mlnlmum, the value of gold, platinum and palladium at Coronation Hill alone is estimated at $700m. At the top end of the estimate, the value was put at $1200m. I do not know how long it would take tourists visiting that region to generate that sort of income, but I think it would be unlikely to be less than 300 years. In any case ..•

Mr Ede: Come on.

Mr COULTER: Well, it is $7200m, conservatively, for the Conservation Zone.

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Mr Ede: Oh, you are talking about the whole lot, not Coronation Hill?

Mr COULTER: am talking about Coronation Hill.

Mr Ede: Well, $7000m is not in Coronation Hill ..•

Mr COULTER: $7000m is in the Conservation Zone, Mr Speaker. I am well aware of the facts of this particular issue. The member for Stuart will have a chance to contribute to this debate, and I am looking forward to his support for the motion that I will be moving. If he is so concerned about the development of the Northern Territory, he can stand on his feet and endorse that as well.

In any case, the mere prospect of large numbers of tourists tramping over the region raises environmental fears that would put mining to shame. To quote Senator Collins again, the greatest environmental threat to Kakadu National Park is not mining, nor feral buffalo, nor introduced weeds like mimosa. The biggest threat is from hordes of smoking, eating and drinking tourists placing their feet on the ground. Uncontrolled tourism would tear the place to shreds. It has always struck me as curious that the activities of 40 or so miners working under a strict environmental regime are supposedly able to cause great desecration of wilderness or areas of Aboriginal significance whilst 100 000 tourists clambering over everything in sight apparently cause no damage at all. That is rubbish, and we all know it.

That brings me to the critical issue of sacred sites and Aboriginal heritage. My colleague the Minister for Lands and Housing will develop the detail of the mischievous case put forward by a section of the Jawoyn people and so eagerly taken up by the federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, Mr Hand. Again, I ask all honourable members to see the forest and not the trees in the statements of the federal minister. He endorses a view that, through overriding Commonwealth legislation, he will happily disregard the laws and statutes of the Northern Territory and proceed to secure absolute land title for the Jawoyn Aboriginal group being used as a tool by the federal government. If the federal minister has his way, important decisions will once again be taken about exclusively Territory matters without involving the Territory. It is the continuing thread of the whole Coronation Hill story. The federal minister also chooses to ignore completely the wishes of many Jawoyn people who want the Coronation Hill development to go ahead. He does so despite the fact that a petition signed by 70 Jawoyn people supporting mining has been presented to the federal parliament.

Sir William Kearney, the Aboriginal Land Commissioner, said in the Jawoyn Katherine Area Land Claim report of October 1987 that he considered it clear from the,evidence that the spiritual affiliations of the Jawoyn diminish as one moves north, with the exception of the Bula sites well to the north-east of the areas around Edith Falls. The exact location of the Bula site has been in dispute ever since. Justice Kearney found that, for areas claimed to the north of Coronation Hill, there was no evidence of strong traditional attachment by the Jawoyn, and the claim to those areas failed as a result. I am speaking of areas to the north of the 14°10' line, the Kearney Line. For similar reasons, all of the Jawoyn claims to areas south of Coronation Hill and north of Edith Falls failed. In short, Justice Kearney found that the claim strayed too far north of the Jawoyn's traditional lands. In any case, several senior Jawoyn men are on record many times as saying that Coronation Hill is not sickness country and that it is not a site of prime Aboriginal significance. They say the prime Bula site is 40 km away. All this scientific, academic and legal information has been available to the federal government, but it has been ignored in the interests of political expediency.

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I should make it crystal clear that the Northern Territory government is willing to assist legitimate claims by Aboriginal people to land and the protection of sites of great significance, which the Bula site is. That is demonstrated by our cooperation with the Jawoyn people in settling what has been known as the Katherine Gorge Claim. I have always said that we would recognise and assist with the protection of the prime Bula site. If we received a proper claim and submission, we would act on it quickly and decisively.

However, the whole Coronation Hill saga has left a sour taste. The cynical and manipulative hand of the former Director of the Aboriginal Sacred Sites Protection Authority has been at work in this matter from the start. Like a puppeteer, he has been directing the operations and preparing the rehearsed statements. He is with us still, manipulating members of the authority and adopting pompous public positions as the self-declared leader of the so-called Territory Green Party. The man is a menace to the aspirations of the Territory.

Mr Speaker, let us return to the central issue, and that is denial of the proper rights of the Northern Territory by a federal Cabinet with a hidden electoral agenda - and I really look forward to the contribution from the opposition benches. The following is a summary of the position. The federal government, through several senior ministers and the Prime Minister himself, gives BHP written assurances that the company can proceed with exploration in the certain knowledge that development will proceed. The federal government then changes its mind, giving, rise to the statement by BHP Chairman Sir Arvi Parbo that the government's word cannot be trusted. The federal government ignores the facts about environmental protection contained in BHP's environmental impact statement. The federal government ignores the facts about the heritage value of the region. The federal government ignores the facts about Aboriginal claims in the region. The federal government ignores the laws and statutes of the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly and the views and opinions of Territorians. The federal government, through Senator Richardson, continues to throw broad hints to the environment lobby that mining will be refused in 12 months time, thereby making a mockery of the evaluation process.

Mr Speaker, it is a farce. It is not as though we are talking about the expressed wishes of the majority of Australians, let alone Territorians. Senator Richardson himself estimates the environment vote in the federal election is about 5%, possibly as high as 10%. So what this federal Cabinet decision means is that Labor is so terrified of losing office in the forthcoming election that it wants to ensure the preference flow-on from a small section of the Australian public. Ironically, I noted this week that the Australian Conservation Foundation has issued a statement that it will not be officially supporting any political party in the federal election. That must be very disappointing to Senator Richardson although I am sure he has conducted his business with the environment lobby behind closed doors, as is his usual practice.

As Senator Collins said of his own colleagues, it is just a matter of politics and electoral survival as perceived by federal Cabinet. For that, the Territory loses economic development it needs so vitally. For that, the Territory loses employment opportunities and valuable spin-off business to the small business sector. For that, the Territory is brushed aside and legally and politically treated as unimportant and irrelevant. For that, Australia loses export income it has never needed so badly. And, as a final piece of supreme irony, one of the minerals proposed to be mined at Coronation Hill,

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platinum, has a major role to play in conservation issues. Its main commercial use is in the manufacture of emission control systems for motor vehicles to limit the release of carbon monoxide into the atmosphere. As honourable members may know, that is considered to be a prime factor causing the so-called Greenhouse Effect. The great bulk of platinum produced in the world today comes from the Soviet Union and South Africa and it is from South Africa that we import most of our platinum.

Mr Speaker, if that is not disturbing enough, there is one other issue that has been brought to my attention. I refer to the proposed changes to the Aboriginal Land Rights Act which Mr Hand is seeking to put through parliament within the next 2 weeks. Along with the excisions issue, there are some amendments which we believe would give Aboriginals the right to make a decision over Coronation Hill through the Northern Land Council. In fact, decisions relating to areas that are not even Aboriginal land would still have to go through the Northern Land Council.

Mr Speaker, the Aboriginal Affairs Minister, Mr Gerry Hand, proposes to introduce amendments to the Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act into the federal parliament in the next 2 weeks. Ostensibly, the amendments are to give effect to the agreement reached recently concerning Aboriginal living areas. Minister Hand is proposing a special mining regime in the act to cater specifically for Coronation Hill. Although no traditional ownership by Aboriginals to the Coronation Hill area has been established under the Aboriginal Land Rights Act or any other act, Minister Hand is now proposing that a person wishing to apply for an exploration licence on mining title must negotiate an agreement with the Northern Land Council.

This action directly undermines the action proposed by the Prime Minister in his disastrous statements following the recent Cabinet decision to shelve the question of mining at Coronation Hill. In that statement, the nation's leader undertook to establish inquiries to determine, inter alia, the Aboriginal position. Justice Stewart has been appointed to conduct inquiries and Mr Hand is now putting through amendments to incorporate Coronation Hill. Minister Hand is now saying that, notwithstanding that no ownership of the area has been established, no sacred site under Commonwealth legislation exists and the NLC may have no clients or traditional owners to represent, nevertheless BHP and joint venture partners must negotiate an agreement with the NLC. By this proposed action, the NLC has been given de facto ownership of a resource of national and possibly international significance.

Regardless of the outcome of inquiries under the chairmanship of Mr Justice Stewart, this piece of legislation would require BHP as operator to negotiate an agreement with a land council that has already stated publicly that it is totally opposed to mining. What a farcical position! The amendments being put forward by Mr Hand make provision for Coronation Hill to be subject to a special mining regime. There is no veto position. Agreement with the relevant land council, the NLC, on terms and conditions to be entered into before the grant of an exploration or mining title provides for a 6-month negotiating period with provisions for referral to the mining commissioner on conciliation and arbitration. This is occurring despite the fact that it is not Aboriginal land. The Coronation Hill project area is not defined. Aboriginal interests have not been tested. If it is found that there are no Aboriginal interests, what happens to the agreement with the NLC? It pre-empts the inquiries of Justice Stewart and undermines recent statements by the Prime Minister regarding these inquiries. The NLC's opposition to mining Coronation Hill has been widely reported. It will be impossible to negotiate an agreement for the mines. Referral to the land commissioner will be

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inevitable and there will be further delays, inquiries and litigation. It is a farce! If honourable members opposite doubt my word, they should get on to their mate in Canberra, Mr Hand. Ring him up and see if what I have said is not factual.

Mr Speaker, I seek leave to move a motion relating to Coronation Hill.

Leave granted.

MOTION Coronation Hill

Mr COULTER: Mr Speaker, I move that:

1. this Assembly -

(a) deplore the decision of the federal government to include 98% of the Conservation Zone within Kakadu National Park and to defer a decision on Coronation Hill and El Sherana mineral deposits for a further' 12 months for political reasons;

(b) express its concern at the denial of Northern Territory rights in the matter and the disregard of the statutes and laws of the Northern Territory;

(c) note with regret the hoax perpetrated by the federal government in perpetuating the myths that Coronation Hill .nd the Conservation Zone are: (1) areas comparable, in national park terms, with Kakadu Stage 1 and worthy of world heritage status when they are not and could not be regarded as virgin wilderness, having been both cattle stations and areas subject to mining; and (2) areas of staggering Aboriginal cultural significance; and

(d) call on the federal government to reverse its decision immediately and to permit the mining of Coronation Hill and continued exploration in the Conservation Zone; and

2. that the terms of this resolution be forwarded to the Prime Minister by the Speaker forthwith.

Mr BELL (MacDonnell): Mr Speaker, I pOint out to honourable members that the honourable minister's speech was in 3 parts, only 1 part of which was provided in advance to the opposition. I must admit that I am concerned about that. I am not particularly concerned about the first part, in which the minister tabled the map. What I am concerned about is the mention in the last few paragraphs of the minister's speech about actions of the federal government and proposals of the federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs. It causes me considerable concern when the Minister for Mines and Energy ambushes the opposition in that way and makes it very difficult to have a reasoned debate about ....

Mr Coulter: It is your party.

Mr BELL: The Mi ni ster for Mi nes and Energy makes it very di ffi cult to have a reasoned debate about pY'oposals of the federal government when he does

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it all off the top of his head and does not give the opposition the opportunity •..

Mr Coulter: It is your party.

Mr BELL: In answer to the interjections from the Minister for Mines and Energy, I point out that the conduits of information flowing from Canberra to the Chan Building are probably every bit as reliable as those flowing from Canberra to the opposition.

Mr Coulter: What does that mean?

Mr BELL: It means precisely what it says, which is that the Minister for Mines and Energy is likely to know as much as we know in that regard.

Mr Poole: They don't tell you anything.

Mr BELL: To pick up the interjection from the member for Araluen, I simply reiterate what I have said already to the Minister for Mines and Energy, whi ch is that i nformati on from our federal colleagues does not always flow as freely as government members might believe.

Mr Speaker, I intend to move an amendment to the minister's motion. I intend to do that because the minister is concentrating on a particular project. I believe that it is appropriate that general principles should apply, not only to Coronation Hill but to other resource development projects, including those under the cpntrol of the Northern Territory government. Those principles should be the subject of this debate. I therefore move that all words after 'that' be deleted and in their stead be inserted:

this Assembly believe that resource development companies operating in the Northern Territory are entitled to an approval process based on objective criteria which are consistent throughout the planning and development phases of these projects.

Mr Speaker, I listened carefully to the statement of the Minister for Mines and Energy. It contained a number of interesting comments in addition to puerile criticism of the federal government which the opposition and, indeed, the federal government, have come to expect as the simple political stock in trade of this government, which is so bankrupt of ideas and initiatives that criticising its political opponents has become a substitute for actually doing something.

The mining of Coronation Hill is one of the most complex environmental, developmental and social issues confronting the nation. However, the Minister for Mines and Energy has tried to reduce it to a series of slogans. I appreciate that, whilst he is not much good at thinking through the principles involved in any issue, he is pretty good at shouting slogans.

The fact of the matter is that the opposition has basically supported the proposal to mine Coronation Hill on the basis that the 2 thorny issues, environmental protection and the question of Aboriginal interest, can be taken into consideration. I am not satisfied that mining in the headwaters of the Alligator Rivers region cannot be done in an environmentally sensible fashion. My experience on the Sessional Committee on the Environment has led me to be most impressed with the process set up between the miners, Ranger Uranium Mine and the Territory and federal governments. There is a complex web of invigilation for that mining project and, although it results in some tension

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from time to time, I believe that the process works. I believe that, unlike the previous Rum Jungle uranium mine, the Ranger mine will not cause extensive environmental change and I would have to be convinced that it is not possible to mine Coronation Hill in an environmentally sensitive fashion. I note the authorities that the honourable minister has adduced to support that point of view and I think that there is a considerable degree of agreement between us.

The question of Aboriginal associations with that area is more difficult. I am aware of debates over many years in respect of Aboriginal associations with the Bula sites in the area. I am not personally familiar with the Jawoyn tradition or the tradition of the neighbouring Rembarrnga or Ngalkbon people to whom the minister referred in his speech, but I am familiar with the associations of the Pitjantjatjara, the Luritja and the Aranda in central Australia, and their concerns about physical harm which may occur because of destruction of certain places. I am concerned that there is some confusion about associations with the Coronation Hill area and that leads ne to the conclusion that it may very well be possible to accommodate Aboriginal aspirations. Indeed, we believe that it is possible.

Mr Coulter: What Aboriginal aspirations?

Mr Collins: Royalties.

Mr Coulter: Which Aborigines?

Mr BELL: I will pick up those interjections from the member for Sadadeen and the Minister for Mines and Energy. We often hear that sort of attributior of cynicism to Aboriginal people from the political conservatives in this place. It is the sort of attitude which, in fact, holds back the development of the Territory in human and economic terms. The member for Sadadeen and the minister ought to be ashamed of themselves.

To return to the substance of my comments with respect to the motion and the amendment, let me come to the central issue. Put simply, it is this: what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. When I spoke about this issue on 8DN talkback last week, I said that I felt a great deal of sympathy for BHP because the rules had been changed during the course of the game. The minister made great play about that change but the fact of the matter is that, if he wants to talk about the inconsistencies of the federal government's approach, it is about time he looked at the performance of his own government. Mr Speaker, as the good book says, be careful of the person who removes the mote from his brother's eye and ignores the log in his own. The log in the eye of the Minister for Mines and Energy is the ~1t Todd development, for which project the joint-venturers are Billiton Australia, a Shell subsidiary, and a Darwin-based mining company, Zapopan.

I hope the Minister for Conservation will get up in this debate too because, in spite of the comments from the Minister for Mines and Energy, the fact of the matter is that there is a degree of parallelism between these 2 projects. The inconsistencies which the Minister for Mines and Energy accuses the federal government of are exactly the same inconsistencies that he is guilty of in respect of the Mt Todd development.

Mr Collins: Tell us about it.

Mr BELL: I will come to that. I will tell the member for Sadadeen, if he can restrain himself for a minute or two.

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The plain fact of the matter is that the Mt Todd exploration began in 1 ate 1987, under standard Northern Tet'ritory Department of Mines and Energy exploration rights approval for exploration. The rights were granted without any caveats. The work was done under a joint venture agreement, as I have explained. By June 1988, Billiton had spent and earned its 50% share of the venture. In September-October 1988, the partners knew they had a viable ore body worth between $1500m and $2000m. Just get that figure, Mr Speaker. It is $1500~ to $2000m, more than the value of the Coronation Hill ore body.

In early 1989, the partners lodged 4 more applications to mine Z of the leases they held. The Northern Territory Department of Mines and Energy told them that all they would need was a preliminary environmental review. No demand was made for an EIS, nor was any likelihood of an EIS raised. However, the joint venture partners decided that a thorough PER should be conducted, one which would ...

Mr VALE: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The motion before the House has nothing to do with Mt Todd. It concerns Coronation Hill. For the last 3 minutes, the honourable member

Mr BELL: May I speak to the point of order, Mr Speaker?

Mr VALE: Mr Speaker, with great respect, I have not finished.

Mr Bell: Well, read the motion before the House, would you?

Mr VALE: Mr Speaker, the motion before the House concerns Coronation Hill and not Mt Todd.

Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order. I would advise the Minister for Tourism that the member for MacDonnell has moved an amendment. In the amendment the member for MacDonnell moved that 'this Assembly believe that resource development companies operating within the Northern Territory are entitled to an approval process that is based on objective criteria which are consistent throughout the planning and development phases of their projects'. I find that the member for MacDonnell is speaking to both the motion and his amendment.

Mr BELL: It is about time that the little new boy on the frontbench ...

Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is no point of order, but there is no point in rubbing it in either.

Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I feel a temptation to rub the minister's face in it, but I will resist it. I will return to my comments about the Mt Todd venture, and I hope that the ~1inister for Tourism is all ears.

I mentioned that the joint venture partners decided that a thorough PER should be conducted, one which would address the expected level of environmental concerns. That review was completed and lodged 8 weeks ago, around the time of the Wanguri by-election.

Three weeks ago we gained a new Minister for Conservation, the member for Nightcliff. With his reforming zeal, he has changed the rules, persuading Cabinet that a new EIS should be ordered. The fact is that the joint venturers in the Mt Todd project, a project worth approximately twice the value of Coronation Hill, do not mind providing an EIS. I have already mentioned the fact that their preliminary environmental report was to be of

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the higher order because they wanted to satisfy all environmental concerns that could be envisaged. However, the government has seen that politic~l considerations are involved and has now ordered a new EIS.

That is the sort of hypocrisy I cannot cope with. The Minister for Mines and Energy berates the federal government and this opposition in relation to Coronation Hill whilst his own government is doing exactly the same thing. For the record, let me say that the joint venturers at Mt Todd have no problem with providing an EIS per se. There are no technical difficulties and they can conduct it in parallel with their management planning. Their conce~n is, however, that they are working to a hidden agenda. They are concerned that further criteria may be revealed later and, even at this stage, they do not know what the criteria are for the EIS.

Their sense of uncertainty has been increased hy the fact that Kinhill, the consultant for the review, was fully approved by the Department ·of Mines and Energy. Si nce th~n, however, they have been to 1 ci that the,} have to. engage another company, which will be a leading Melbourne consultant. A senior executive from the joint venturers said that they were now trying to get a decent set of guidelines which they could rely on. He said that it did not matter how exhaustive, strict, or demanding they were but that the scary thing was that, at the end of the whole process, the government might say something had been left out, forcing them to go all th~ way back to square one. An interface between the Depa rtment of r~i nes and Energy and the Conserva t ion Commission has been established to develop guidelines for the venture's EIS, but the executive went on to say that it was an ad hoc, one-off and primarily informal attempt to see if working guidelines could be achieved.

Mr Speaker, I think that I have clearly established the hypocrisy of the honourable minister and this government. They have a double standard in their approach to mining development in the Northern Territory. It is about time they developed a slightly more constructive attitude instead of trying to gain cheap political points in respect of Coronation Hill, where they have no control over mining development. If they want that control, bleating' about the federal government is certainly not the right way togo about getting it. The federal government controls, which the minister complains about, are iii place precisely because of the sort of irrational outbursts that we have hearci from the minister today. Such outbursts characterise this govern,ment. I have news for the Minister for Mines and Energy and his cohorts on the government benches: as I have amply demonstrated, the mining industry does not particularly like those outbursts either.

Let me pick up a couple of points from the minister's statement. I was pleased to hear the minister reiterating comments made by Senator Bob Cell ins in respect of Coronation Hill and the relative impacts of various activities in Kakadu. Honourable members will recall that the Minister for Mines and Energy quoted Senator Collins saying that the major causes of problems in Kakadu were not mining, feral buffalo or mimosa, but feral tourists. The' minister referred to the significant environmental impact of 100 000 tourists climbing all over everything. That is'indeed the case, and it brings to miild' the situation at Ayers Rock in my electorate. The climbing path up the rock face is now visible from several miles away and, whilst I am not suggesting that it be closed to tourists, it is about time that we, as responsible legislators, started to accept that there is a need to impose maximum visitation levels at particular locations. '

I draw the attention of honourable members to a Peat Marwick Hungerfords development plan for the tourist industry 'Towards the Year 2000'. There is

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t.


considerable reference in that report to concerns about restricting tourist numbers. I refer particularly to chapter 6, 'Capitalising on the Resources'. It refers to the Conservation Commission, the ANPWS, the Department of Lands and Housing, and the Aboriginal land councils. It says:

The land managers are concerned with controlling the use by tourists ard pastoralists in the best interests of the community while protecting the resource for future generations. Their role is to minimise the impact of external intrusions, vehicles and feral animals so as to protect the environmentally sensitive areas and to develop land management policies.

Such remarks must be considered in the light of the particularly apposite point made by the Minister for Mines and Energy.

I refer briefly to the claims made by the honourable minister in respect of the map which he tabled. I think he said that the map refers to the Coronation Hill area as a sandy, sandstone area. He implied that the area was relatively devoid of importance. I remind the honourable minister that that particular map of the Northern Territory does not contain any reference to the Petermann Ranges and a number of other areas in my electorate which are considered significant today for all sorts of reasons. Indeed, I am not sure that the map is particularly germane to this debate.

In considering Aboriginal associations, we should also bear in mind the situation in relation to pastoral leases and people. who live on them. I am sure that the member for Arnhem will make reference, in this debate, to his concerns about the access that Aboriginal people have historically had or not had to particular places and I will leave him to elaborate on that matter.

I want to make a final point in relation to allegations made about the federa 1 Mi ni ster for Abori gi na 1 Affa irs, Mr Gerry Hand. I note that the minister referred to documents which indicated that Gerry Hand had directed that the NLC should negotiate with BHP. As I said at the beginning of my speech, this debate would benefit considerably if the minister would table the documents on which he based the fairly substantial remarks he made at the end of his speech.

~lr SPEAKER: Is the Minister for Mines and Energy prepared to table the documents?

Mr COULTER: There are various notes from my office which link various bits and pieces and put it all together. That is all. Mr Speaker, I table the documents.

Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, in conclusion, let me simply say this. There can be no doubt that the Minister for Mines and Energy should accept the opposition's amendment. There can be no doubt that he should accept the need for a consistent approach to mining development and that objective criteria should apply throughout the planning and development phases of mining projects. As I explained, those objectives and consistent criteria should apply to the Mt Todd venture as well as to the Coronation Hill venture.

Mr POOLE (Araluen): Mr Speaker, I rise to speak to the amendment. What the opposition is saying has some merit but I believe the substance of the amendment moved by the member for MacDonnell would be more appropriately raised as an item on General Business Day. The amendment totally negates the purpose of the government's original motion. I suppose it is natural that

7508


opposition members would want to avoid talking about their political colleagues in Canberra because they are a little embarrassed about the Coronation Hill decision. I believe we have wasted enough time today talking about this amendment. The opposition has still not stated whether it supports the decision or not. It has not stated whether it supports the rights of Territorians or not. Let us get back to the original debate so that we can hear from opposition members exactly where they stand on this matter.

Mr Speaker, move that the amendment be now put.

Mr SPEAKER: The question is that the question be now put. I think the ayes have it.

Mr BELL: A division, Mr Speaker!

Hr SPEAKER: Ring the bells.

Mr Bell: Bugger you. What a load of nonsense. You are a half-wit.

Hr COULTER: A point of order, Mr Speaker! Two words have been used which are unparliamentary.

Mr Bell: The division bells are ringing.

Mr COULTER: Mr Speaker will decide whether the division bells were ringing at the time I stood to my feet, not you. The 2 words were 'bugger you'. 'Bullshit' was another word that I heard. 'Half-wit' was also used. Under standing order 62, they certa'inly must be ruled as unparliamentary.

Mr SPEAKER: Irrespective of whether the division bells were ringing or not, the decorum of the House must be maintained. I ask the member for MacDonnell to withdraw at least the expression that I heard: 'half-wit'. Because of the noise in the Chamber at the time, I did not hear any other expression which might have been used.

Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I have no hesitation in withdrawing unreservedly in view of the sensitivities of the Leader of Government Business.

The Assembly divided:

Ayes 13

Mr Coulter Mr Dondas Mr Finch Mr Firmin Nr Harris Mr Hatton Mr McCarthy Mr Manzie Nr Palmer Mr Poole Mr Reed Mr Setter Mr Vale

Motion agreed to.

Noes 6

Mr Bailey Mr Bell Mr Ede Mr Lanhupuy Mr Leo ~1r Smi th

7509


Mr SPEAKER: The question is that the amendment be agreed to.

The Assembly divided

Ayes 6

~Ir Bai 1 ey Mr Bell Mr Ede Mr Lanhupuy Mr Leo' Mr Smith

Amendment negatived.

Noes 15

Mr Coulter Mr Dondas Mr Finch Mr Firmin Mr Floreani Mr Harris Mr Hatton Mr McCarthy Mr Manzie Mr Palmer Mr Poole Mr Reed Mr Setter Mr Tuxworth ~Ir Vale

Mr MANZIE'(Land~ and Housing): Mr Speaker. in referring to the issue being debated, it is appropriate to run through some of the comments made by the member for MacDonnell, who really excelled himself this morning. First of all, he was critical of the minister for 'breaking his speech into 3 parts'. He said the first part concerned a map, of which he had no knowledge.

Mr LEO: A point of order, Mr'Speaker! The honourable minister is addressing an amendment and the member for MacDonnell only ever spoke to his amendment. The minister is addressing an amendment which has just been defeated in this House.

Mr HARRIS: Mr Speaker, the member for MacDonnell ~ntered the debate on the motion that the government had put forward. He did not move the amendment until the end of his speech and I would suggest that the discussion that is taking place now is relevant to debate on the government's motion.

Mr SPEAKER: The advice I have from the Clerk is that the amendment has been negated and that, therefore, remarks should now be confined to the motion or to the statement.

Mr MANZIE: Mr Speaker, I certainly will not dispute your ruling. I think that the member for MacDonnell was extremely lucky. He said many things in hi s speech thi s morni ng and they will come back to him, because I will make sure they do. I will make sure that the appropriate people are made aware of his comments and some of the attitudes which he displayed here this morning. I found them absolutely unbelievable.

I would like to discuss in some detail the interesting behaviour of the federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs regarding sacred sites at Coronation Hill. On the morning of 26 September, I received a letter from the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs about sacred sites in the Coronation Hill region. That letter stated that he had received an application under the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act for protection of the sacred site at Coronation Hill and other sacred sites forming the so-called

7510


Bula Complex. His letter said: 'These are said to be under serious threat of injury or desecration because of existing mining claims and. leasE's within the boundary of those sites'. He then asked if, to assist in his consideration of this matter, I would supply him with advice on the following questions. Are the sites known as Coronation Hill and the Bula Complex registered under the Northern Territory Aboriginal Sacred Sites Act and, if so, are the sites of particular significance to Aboriginals? Are the sites the subject of mining claims and leases and, if so, what are the details of the mining interests, including any approvals to commence mining activity? Do such approvals constitute in any way a threat of injury or desecration to the sites and, if so, what protection will the Territory government provide to remove that threat of injury or desecration, and when will such action as appropriate take place?

His letter then goes on to say: 'Your urgent attention in this matter may assist me to allay the fears of many Aboriginals in the Territory that your government may, under the new Northern Territory legislation, commit serious damage to significant areas or sites which at'e integral to the survival of the Aboriginal cultural heritage in the Territory'. This last patronising comment really set the seal on what was an absolutely abysmal effort by the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs. I know that some members on the opposite side of the House would agree entirely with that, and I am sure the member for MacDonnell would be the first to put his hand up because he said earlier this morning: 'I believe that we can accommodate Aboriginal ...

Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! I believe that the Minister for Lands and Housing is deliberately flouting your ruling in respect of my comments in speaking to an earlier amendment that has now been negated. I urge you to request him to speak to the motion now before the House.

Mr SPEAKER: I rule that the Attorney-General was connecting his remarks to the motion as proposed by the Deputy Chief Minister. There is no point of order.

Mr MANZIE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. As I said, the member for MacDonnell was quite clear when he said that he believes that the Territory can accommodate Aboriginal aspirations. He did not say why or how he believed this could be done but, obviously, it would be on the basis of legislation which was passed by this House after the member for MacDonnell spent 12 hours trying to prevent its passage. He has now stated quite clearly that that legislation is sufficient to accommodate Aboriginal aspirations in respect of Coronation Hill. I find that quite gratifying. I would like to hear more about why and how the member for MacDonnell believes that the quite good legislation we passed can do that. I am s~re that he could probably enlighten his colleagues. If he does not believe that the new legislation is responsible, I am blowed if I know how he believes that we can meet the aspirations of Aboriginals under the present circumstances. Maybe he has something up his sleeve or he believes in doing things that are not according to law. That would not surprise me because he often suggests that I do things which would not be permitted by the provisions of legislation.

I would like to hear what the member for MacDonnell thinks about the proposal of the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and his most patronising comment to the effect that many Aboriginals in the Territory consider that, under the new Territory legislation, damage can occur to Significant areas or sites which are integral to the survival of Aboriginal cultural heritage in the Territory. What does the member for MacDonnell think about that statement, given that he has said that he knows that Aboriginal aspirations

7511


can be accommodated at present? Whilst the federal minister's letter was obviously designed to pander to the left-wing elements of his party. all he achieved was public revelation of the fact that he did not understand his own legislation. had not read the new Territory legislation and was not aware of his own government's powers with respect to mining on Commonwealth land. It was indeed a woeful effort. Under the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act. the federal minister may make a declaration if he is satisfied that 'the area is a significant Aboriginal area' and that 'it is under threat of injury or desecration'.

The key is that the site must be under threat. As I pointed out to the minister in my reply. there is no way at present that this provision can be applied to sites at Coronation Hill. It is simply not true to say that they are under threat of injury or desecration. The upper South Alligator Bula Complex. including Coronation Hill. was registered as a sacred site under Territory law on 3 October 1985. Honourable members would be awal'e that. by virtue of section Sl of the t;0rthern Territory Aboriginal Sacred Sites Act. it is deemed to be registered under the new legislation. The sites are already protected under Territory legislation. I further advised the minister that they'e is no existing application for a certificate under section 20 of the new Territory legislation. Given that the sites are deemed to be registered under Territory law. that previous works in the area were authorised by the previous authority and that there are no applications for new certificates. there cannot be. under the widest rational interpretation. any threat of injury of desecration to the sites.

Mr Ede interjecting.

Mr MANZIE: Mr Speaker. I hear a call from the member for Stuart. He has problems in understanding simple legislation and he has problems with listening to what is said in this parliament. I will not repeat it again for him because I think that even numerous reiteration of the facts does little to help him. Possibly. if he reads the Hansard record several times. exactly what has been said may sink into his mind.

There can be no possible justification for the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs to attempt to make a declaration over all or any of those sites. It simply would not be a valid act. The bottom line is that. like it or not, the federal government has no option but to wait on the full processes for deciding applications for certificates under the Territory legislation.

Mr Smith: That is not true.

Mr MANZIE: Mr Speaker. the Leader of the Opposition will have plenty of opportunity to tell us why that is not correct. I am very pleased that we will have a contribution from him. The Leader of the Opposition, the great pretender for the post of head of government of the Territory, has said nothing about this matter. not a whimper, not a whisper. It is absolutely unbelievable. And now he is going to tell us why Territory legislation will not work. I find it unbelievably amusing and I think everyone in the community must do so as well. The member for MacDonnell has spoken in this debate and he said a few words today, but we have not heard from his leader. Have we seen any letters or press releases from him, as we have seen from his colleague Senator Collins. who has worked tirelessly at trying to impress upon his federal Labor colleagues the folly of their ways? Have we seen support from the Leader of the Opposition? You bet we have, Mr Speaker. We have seen the sort of support he gives everything which might help in the development of the Territory - a big fat zero's worth.

7512


What about the member for MacDonnell? Has he been loud in his condemnation of the federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs? Has he been loud in his condemnation of Senator Richardson? Did we see him jump up when Senator Richardson said that the Territory government had the worst environmental protection record in the country? He jumped to his feet in the House this morning. He said that we had the ability to carry out all environmental protection that was required in terms of developing the Coronation Hill area. He knows mining can be carried out in an environmentally sound way. He even spoke about how impressed he was, as a member of the Sessional Committee on the Environment, with the work done by Ranger, the Northern Territory government and the federal government in relation to environmental protection at the Ranger Uranium Mine. He was most impressed by that, and he said that the same thing could occur at Coronation Hill. Why, then, did he not say similar things when Senator Richardson said that the Territory government had Australia's worst environmental record?

Mr Bell: You were not listening to the talkback program last week, were you?

Mr MANZIE: Mr Speaker, how loudly did he refute Senator Richardson's comment? I read nothing in the newspaper about how he followed his colleague, Senator Collins, in trying to get his federal Labor colleagues to do something positive for the Territory, nor did I read anything about the Leader of the Opposition doing that. They are squibs, Mr Speaker. They will not stand up for Territorians when it counts. They whinge in the background. They hide. Did we see them? We did not see them. Did we hear from them? We did not hear a whisper from them. They left Senator Collins high and dry, trying to do something for the Territory. They would not do anything for the Territory. What a disgraceful suggestion. Maybe we might have a bit of success. We might create some more jobs, or we might create some wealth for a country that is going down the tube because of the economic policies of their federal colleagues.

The government has had to move a motion in this House in order to get something out of members opposite. What we are talking about is the welfare, not only of all Territorians, but of all Australians. Fancy the Leader of the Opposition standing up and saying that the Territory act will not work when his own colleague, the member for MacDonnell, has said quite clearly in this debate that he is quite confident that the aspirations of Aboriginal people can be accommodated. Members opposite have not even got their own act together. Maybe they ought to sit down and have a bit of a talk about how they approach things.

Only after processes under the Territory legislation have been completed, and if there is dissent over certificates which have been issued, can the federal government entertain an application under the Aboriginal Islander Heritage Protection Act. The federal minister has no role to play at present and he should have the integrity to acknowledge that fact and get out of the debate. If he questions that, he may like to consider the words of his predecessor during his second-reading speech on the bill. Hon Clyde Holding said ••.

Mr Smith interjecting.

Mr Coulter interjecting.

Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Chief Minister will cease their cross-Chamber chatter.

7513


Mr MANZIE: Mr Speaker, it is good to see that the Leader of the Opposition has returned to the Chamber. I know that he does not consider this debate important but I would have thought that he would want to stay here so that he could get across the subject. It is good to see him here.

The federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs should consider the words of his predecessor in that portfolio. In his second-reading speech on the federal legislation, Hon Clyde Holding said: 'The bill expresses an intention not to exclude or limit the operation of a law of a state or territory that is capable of operating concurrently ~/ith it. In practice, the Commonwealth sees this legislation to be used in the last resort'. It is pretty clear. That is what the parliament intended and that is what the minister of the day expressed. However, that is not the practice of the present federal minister. I am glad to see that the member for MacDonnell recognises the role of the Territory, but I am very concerned that the great pretender, the Leader of the Opposition, has problems in coming to grip with the fact that this is the Northern Territory and not a colony of the Commonwealth.

I am sure honourable members would agree that, in seeking to become involved before the processes for resolution under Territory legislation are even commenced, the federal minister could not claim to be acting in the last resort. In light of his predecessor's commitment, it is clear that any attempt by the federal minister to become involved at this stage would not only be legally improper but, as the member for Barkly would be quite aware, morally wrong. I believe that the federal minister has demonstrated a lack of understanding of his own legislation and a lack of familiarity with the new Territory act, as has the Leader of the Opposition.,

The Minister for Aboriginal Affairs made a significant faux pas in his question about current mining claims and leases. While the area is certainly the subject of mining claims and. leases, I must point out that the Commonwealth controls mining on its own land via the Lands Acquisition Act. I can only quote from advice to the federal minister on this point:

I would point out to you that the details of m.ining interests and the question of approvals to commence mining activity fall within the domain of the Commonwealth. It would seem you do not fully appreciate the legal position of the Commonwealth as regards the Conservation Zone and Kakadu generally. I would suggest that it is important that, in view of the forthcoming consideration by federal

·Cabinet of these complex and difficulty matters, you inform yourself fully as to the Commonwealth position so that your decision can be properly based.

Mr Speaker, I can only hope that the federal minister had the grace to take that advice.

There is another aspect of the issue which has yet to be considered by honourable members. Honourable members opposite and their federal colleagues seem conveniently to have forgotten that the Territory government's power to make laws in relation to sacred sites is conferred by the Aboriginal Land Rights Act. We have not plucked our right to act in that area out of thin air.

Mr SMITH (Opposition Leader): Mr Speaker, I ~ave been caught short. The Minister for Lands and Housing promised us an earth-shaking address and he spoke for 5 minutes.

7514


Mr Manzie: I ran out of time. Move an extension and I will keep on going.

Mr SMITH: Mr Speaker, this is indeed a lacklustre debate. The Minister for Mines and Energy went through the motions. Then we heard from the Attorney-General, who is so bruised and battered from yesterday that he can barely go through the motions. Of course, the performance of those government speakers has much to do with the reaction to the suggestion last week by the Deputy Chief Minister, in his capacity as Acting Chief Minister, that the Territory might have an early election on this issue. He got a terrible fright when we said that we would be happy to fight an early election on this issue and I extend an invitation to him across the Chamber. If the Country Liberal Party wants to run an early election on the Coronation Hill issue, we will be happy to oblige. Of course, the reason why the government is not going for an early election on this particular issue is that it knows that it would have a very severe problem.

I want to pick up a comment made by the Minister for Mines and Energy this morning, which clearly demonstrates the problems which the federal government has in dealing with the Northern Territory government. Yesterday, there were briefings at officer level between the 2 governments on the various pieces of legislation that are necessary to put in place the excisions program that has been promised. I think the federal officers took the opportunity also to run past their Northern Territory Golleagues some amendments being proposed by the Commonwealth to the Land Rights Act. Such discussions at officer level are quite normal and help to resolve any problems which may emerge. It has to be said that it is counterproductive to the establishment of goodwill between governments when a minister takes such discussions out of context and uses them for his own political purposes in a public forum such as this.

Let me set the record straight. Information which I have obtained from the federal minister's office indicates that the proposed amendments to the Land Rights Act do not affect the exemption previously created in respect of Coronation Hill, which is beneficial to the Coronation Hill joint venturers. ,

Mr Coulter: What does that mean?

Mr SMITH: It means that the requirements of the Land Rights Act in terms of mlnlng on Aboriginal land do not apply to the Coronation Hill project. They have not applied since 1987 and, as I understand it, will not apply as a result of the amendments to the act. The proposed amendments will apply only in the rest of the Conservation Zone if the land in it is Aboriginal land - that is, if it is granted as a result of a successful land claim.

Mr Coulter: What about Justice Stewart? Does he get a chance to decide whether it is or not?

Mr SMITH: The real purpose of the amendment is to remove the anomaly of the Conservation Zone being the only area to which the old mining provision of the Land Rights Act applied.

Mr Coulter: That will not take long.

Mr SMITH: Mr Speaker, he is not even interested in the answer.

These provisions were repealed in 1987. The effect of the amendment will be that the present mining provisions will apply to the Conservation Zone. Another amendment will allow miners and land councils to reach agreement over

7515


exploration in mlnlng interests on land under claim but not yet granted as Aboriginal land. The provision is intended to give miners and land councils the opportunity to resolve any problems in advance of the grant. It is not mandatory.

Mr Coulter: Does it apply to Groote Eylandt?

Mr SMITH: Miners will not be compelled to negotiate such agreements. Therefore, the minister could not have been referring to this proposed amendment.

In response to the minister's interjection, the proposed amendments will not alter the status of the eastern areas on Groote Eylandt. In fact, the proposed amendments are being put forward specifically to protect the status of those eastern areas of Groote Eylandt and to protect the status of Coronation Hill as it is at present.

Mr Coulter: But not the rest of the Conservation Zone?

Mr SMITH: Not the rest of the Conservation Zone. Of course, that is not new either because that sort of provision also applied previously. In dealing with this point, I repeat that the arrant nonsense put out by the Minister for Mines and Energy,. does him no credit whatsoever. It merely makes it more difficult to solve:problems which are quite difficult.

Mr Coulter: What is the problem?

Mr Leo: You are the problem.

Mr SMITH: 'Mr Speaker, as my honourable colleague said, the Minister for Mines and Energy is the problem. Heis a problem, not only for the people of the Northern Territory generally but for his own party. Last Friday he dug a very large hole for his own government to fall into - and he is pretty good at digging large holes - with threats of an early election on the decision to delay Coronation Hill.

Mr Coulter: I said that it could net be ruled out.

Mr SMITH: Mr Speaker, as the Chief Minister has twice discovered, the people who feel most threatened by talk of an early election are his own colleagues. As I pointed out at the weekend and as I say again, whatever the trigger for an early election, the gun is pointed at the heads of members opposite and an early election on this particular issue would have blown them away.

There will be no early election. In fact, the election will be held as late as possible. In other words, the government is not going to test this issue with the electorate. It will leave that to Senator Tambling and Bob Liddle. Heroic stuff - that is the only word for it. We will get plenty of posturing, Mr Speaker. We have heard about Coronation Hill for the last couple of weeks. We will see plenty of posturing and strutting by members opposite and we will have 3 or 4 hours of it today. There will be no end to the bombast and the rhetoric. Members opposite will spit out their outrage, their indignation and their own impeccable resolve to fight it to the last man. The last man, Mr Speaker, is Bob Liddle. That is how much conviction members opposite feel about this particular issue. They are prepared to sacrifice Bob Liddle, but they are not prepared to put their own necks on the line. It demonstrates their arrogance and hypocrisy. It is very easy for

7516


them to cast aspersions on the federal government for the way it has behaved in relation to Coronation Hill but they have exactly the same problem with Mt Todd. We have not heard much about Mt Todd, Mr Speaker.

Members interjecting.

Mr SMITH: Let us look at Mt Todd for a moment. It has has 21 to 3 times the proven deposits ...

Mr REED: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The Leader of the Opposition has been rambling on about early elections and now he is embarking on a discourse about Mt Todd. I understood that the purpose of this debate was to discuss matters in relation to Coronation Hill. I would ask, Mr Speaker, that you consider the relevance of the Leader of the Opposition's statements.

Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order. However, I would ask the Leader of the Opposition to confine his remarks to the motion.

Mr SMITH: Mr Speaker, I always do.

The point that I want to make and was in the process of making is that, in the way it is handling the Mt Todd situation, the Northern Territory government has encountered the same problems that the federal government has with Coronation Hill and is responding to the same pressures that the federal government has responded to in relation to Coronation Hill. Those pressures are clear. Like it or not, those pressures are generated by a rapidly growing and influential environmental movement. The events which have taken place in relation to Mt Todd provide an object lesson in how a government, in this case the Northern Territory government, responds to a growing, vocal and influential group within the community.

As I have said, Mt Todd has $1500m to $2000m in proven deposits. Earlier this year, the joint venturers were told by the Department of Mines and Energy that, if they prepared a preliminary environmental review, they would be okay. They prepared that preliminary environmental review. It was presented shortly before the Wanguri by-election. Just 3 weeks after that election, in which the Green Independent candidate. received 17% of the vote, the joint venturers were asked to go back and do a complete environmental impact statement. That was in direct response to the green vote in the Wanguri by-election, and I am sure the Minister for Mines and Energy would agree on that. I know that the Minister for Mines and Energy fought against the decision in Cabinet and, obviously, he lost. The result is a situation in which the Mt Todd venture partners have had to go back and start a full environment impact statement.

Mr Coulter: You would support the development proceeding with a PER, would you? Is that what you are saying?

Mr SMITH: No, I would not.

We have a situation in which, in response to direct pressure, on this occasion from environmental groups and the electors of Wanguri, the government changed the procedures in respect of Mt Todd halfway through the exercise.

Mr Coulter: That is not true.

Mr SMITH: It is true.

Mr Coulter: No, it is not. How would you know?

7517


Mr SMITH: We have spoken directly to some of the people concerned.

Mr Coulter: Who?

Mr SMITH: I am not going to tell you that.

Mr Coulter: How do you expect us to believe it if it is secret?

Mr SMITH: As I have said, the government changed the rules of the exercise halfway through.

May I remind members opposite, who seem to think that the Mt Todd situation is something to be flippant about, that the joint venturers have already spent $llm proving up their deposit and that each month of delay costs them a further $500 000. The member for Katherine sits in this House and turns the matter into a joke. Meanwhile, the joint venturers, one of which is a local Territory company, have been stuffed around by this government's ineptitude and failure to put in place proper procedures from the beginning. I can tell the member for Katherine that that is no joke .•.

Mr COULTER: A point of order, Mr Speaker!

Mr SMITH: and that his attitude towards this matter does him no credit whatsoever.

Mr SPEAKER: Order!

Mr COULTER: A point of order was called in terms of relevance in this debate. The Leader of the Opposition has some 6 minutes remaining to him and he has not addressed the issue of Coronation Hill once. We have heard about early elections and Mt Todd, but not once has he addressed the issue of Coronation Hill. Surely, Mr Speaker, in a major debate such as this, with 6 minutes to go, the Leader of the Opposition should address his remarks to the motion.

Mr SPEAKER: I find that there is no point of order. However, I would ask the Leader of the Opposition to confine his remarks to the motion before the House.

Mr SMITH: Mr Speaker, I have spent the last 7 to 8 minutes addressing paragraph l(a) of the motion, where it talks about deferring a decision on Coronation Hill and El Sherana mineral deposits for a further 12 months, for political reasons. No one denies that it is for political reasons. What I am trying to point out is that it is not an exceptional process and that the same political factors apply in the Northern Territory. We have seen the very same deferral of a decision, and it will cost the joint venturers at Mt Todd a further 12 months. The difference between the Northern Territory government and the federal government is that, when the Northern Territory government decided off the top of its head that an environmental impact statement was needed - and it should have made that decision right at the start of the process rather than halfway through it - it did not provide the joint ventures with guidelines for that statement. Therefore, the joint venturers have to spend 2 months waiting while the Conservation Commission and the Department of Mines and Energy fight over what should be included in the guidelines. That is how organised this crowd is. That is how organised this group of people opposite is in its approach to the orderly development of mining and resource development in the Northern Territory. It could not organise a chook raffle in a pub.

7518


Mr Coulter: What about Bill iton' s press release saying that the guidelines on the EIS have been reached? It was put out on 27 September.

Mr SMITH: 27 September, eh! They may have reached the guidelines. Where are your department's guidelines?

Mr Coulter: It is their press release, you goose.

Mr SPEAKER: Order! I would ask the Minister for Mines and Energy to withdraw that remark. It was unparliamentary.

Mr COULTER: The Leader of the Opposition is not a goose.

Mr SMITH: Mr Speaker, to address briefly the contents of subparagraph (b) of the motion, I share the concern of the Minister for Lands and Housing in relation to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Act. I accept the point that he is making in relation to the fact that applications should first be made under Northern Territory legislation. I simply make 2 points. One is that the Aboriginal community of the Northern Territory has little confidence in the operations of the Sacred Sites Authority when the minister overseeing it, who has a power of discretion, is the same minister who has been so shamefully caught out in his exercise of discretion in relation to the Crimes Compensation Act. If land councils had any confidence in the system before, when they learn of the way that the honourable minister has exercised his discretion and the appalling fashion in which he has treated people subject to the Crimes Compensation Act, their confidence in the operations of the new act will be much reduced.

My second point is that there is a problem with the Commonwealth act, and the problem is recognised by a number of Commonwealth politicians. It is that, once an application is received, the federal minister has no option but to deal with it. He cannot knock it back. He has to consider it. That is a problem with the act and hopefully it will be corrected one day.

Let us have a look at subparagraph (c) of the motion. We have the Deputy Chief ~linister saying that, if land is not virgin wilderness it should not have world heritage status. Mr Speaker, what absolute nonsense. I have stood at the top of Obiri Rock in 1981 and in 1990 and looked over that flood plain •..

Mr Coulter: 1990? You are a visionary!

Mr SMITH: 1989 - and looked over the flood plain and the difference is amazing. What was clapped-out buffalo country in 1981 has come back to its original state. I have had the privilege also of having a look at some of Big Bill's country. Similarly, what was once clapped-out buffalo country, according to many members opposite, has come back to its full glory. The same will occur in respect of Kakadu Stage 3. Are you going to give me an extension of time?

Mr Coulter: No. He has not addressed one issue in relation to Coronation Hill.

Mr REED (Primary Industry and Fisheries): Mr. Speaker, it was fascinating to hear the Leader of the Opposition speak for 20 minutes and not once mention Coronation Hill, the subject of this debate and a matter of considerable importance to the Northern Territory and to the national economy. Not once did he mention it, and then he expected an extension of time. Clearly, the

7519


Leader of the Opposition has not even been to Coronation Hill. If that is. not an indictment on the Leader of the Opposition, given that Coronation Hill is of such importance to the Northern Territory and the prospective development of the mining industry, what is? He has not even been there.

Mr Smith: Yes I have.

Mr REED: Mr Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition spoke about Mt Todd and about all sorts of matters that were of no relevance at all to the issues relating to Coronation Hill. It is an absolute disgrace that the people of the Territory are treated in this way. The Leader of the Opposition cannot relate even to the debate at hand.

The difference between the EIS requirements at Mt Todd and those at Coronation Hill is that Coronation Hill has been through the process of an EIS.' It has weathered the storm and the EIS has indicated that the mining process can proceed there. That view is supported by the environmental authorities that make recommendations to the Commonwealth government. That is the difference. Mt Todd has yet to go through that legitimate process. If I am not mistaken, the Pine Creek mine went through the process of an EIS. The full implications of the mining operation were considered in that process and the mine proceeded. Mt Todd will go through the same processes, the same responsible environmental investigations, which happen throughout the Northern Territory. The attitude of this government is responsible and its record speaks for itself. It is a commendable record.

We have seen the Commonwealth dillydally for years in relation to Coronation Hill. Every time it has been considered by the federal Cabinet, a decision has been made not to make a decision. It is deferred for one reason or another. It was deferred some time ago because various considerations had to be taken 'into account. It was further deferred because an EIS had to be undertaken. The EIS came and went and another decision was made not make a decision. In the last week or so, we have had yet another decision not to make a decision. A couple of committees have been formed to look into further aspects of mining at Coronation Hill, including those issues of sacred sites and other matters that have been dreamed up for no reason other than to avoid making a decision for another year. The federal government does not have the guts to say yes or no. I am sure BHP would be equally relieved no matter which way the decision went.

The Leader of the Opposition indicated that $10m or so had been spent at Mt Todd. God knows how many millions have been spent at Coronation Hill by BHP and the joint venturers in the expectation that the opinions that they put forward as a result of their investigations would be fairly considered and a decision made. They are still waiting.

All sorts of smokescreens have been put up by people from all walks of life. The man in the street, professors, biologists and others have been presenting arguments against mining at Coronation Hill. For example, a few weeks ago, I saw a CSIRO scientist state on the ABC television news that mining should not proceed at Coronation Hill because there were known to be 5 breeding pairs of hooded parrots there. That might be true, but what disturbed me was that the inference that they were the last 5 pairs of breeding hooded parrots in the world.

I can speak with a little authority on hooded parrots because I did some work on them throughout the Top End. They occur only in the Northern Territory. They are endemic to the Northern Territory. I found breeding

7520


hooded parrots, not in groups of 5 pairs but in groups of 20 and 30 pairs. J have seen flocks of 500 or 600 come to water in different parts of the Northern Territory, dispersed as far apart as Larrimah, Lake Evella, Ramingining, the Edith Falls area, Pine Creek, Umbrawarra Gorge, certainly up through the Kakadu country and perhaps around Coronation Hill. Plum Tree Creek definitely comes to mind.

The point that J wish to make is that some people have been extremely selective in what they have said, not because they wanted to present the facts but because they wanted to present an argument which painted the prospect of mining at Coronation Hill in a bad light. It is a very sad state of affairs for the Northern Territory and, indeed, for Australia generally when professional people stoop to that level and bend the facts ir an unjust way to support their argument. That seems to me to be most unfair and not i~ the national interest. Certainly, one would have to question their professional ethics. .

The other point that I would like to make is in relation to sacred sites. J had the benefit of being on all of the field trips during the course of the Jawoyn 1 and claim. One tha t spri ngs to mi nd in the context of th i s debate ~/as a field trip to Waterfall Creek. If I am not mistaken, Gumlon was its traditional name. We camped there one night. and left the following day. Evidence was taken and I have no doubt that, in making recommendations to the federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs in relation to the Jawoyn land claim, the Aboriginal Land Commissioner took into account what he heard there. The traditional evidence was not very convincing in relation to that area of the claim. Without looking again at the transcript, I cannot recall one reference to the Coronation Hill area in evidence given at the land claim hearing. The Aboriginal Larid Commissioner's recommendations to the minister did not reflect any convincing traditional ties of the Jawoyn people with that country or indeed with any point much north of Edith Falls.

During the last few weeks, I have had a couple of phone calls from Jawoyn people expressing grave concern about the fact that the NLC is interfering in the decision-making process in relation to mining at Coronation Hill. They want to see mining go ahead and they are totally frustrated by the attitude of the Northern Land Council and other peopl~, which they see as unnecessarily interfering in the process of consideration of the future of mining at Coronation Hill. Earlier in this debate, by way of interjection, I asked the member for Arnhem what he thought about the views of those people. Interestingly, he said: 'There are only a few of them. Do not worry about them. They do not count'. I find that quite obnoxious. The member for Arnhem represents many of the Jawoyn. Barunga, Beswick and other areas are in his electorate. Yet, in putting forward his own view concerning mining at Coronation Hill, he is prepared to cast their views aside quite flippar.tly, saying that there are only a few of them and their views do not count.

I think the whole sacred sites issue in relation to Coronation Hill is a facade and a smokescreen. It is a great pity that the Leader of the Opposition has not been there. I first visited Coronation Hill in 1976. There was no mining exploration activity in the area at that time but what struck me was that Coronation Hill was riddled by quarries. It was like a piece of cheese; there were mining shafts everywhere. I cannot help forming the impression that Bula has been long gone. If Bula is disturbed by mining activity, more than sufficient activity has taken place already at Coronation Hill to frighten the living dayl ights out of Bula.. I bel ieve that he left at some time in the 1950s. More is the pity perhaps. I can sympathise with Aboriginal interests but the fact is that the position is lost from that point

7521

nFPATES - Thursday I? October 1989

of view. I really cannot see any future mining activity in that area being any more detrimental than that which has already taken place.

In considering community views in relation to Coronation Hill. I refer to this week's edition of the Katherine Times. Members will pardon me if I am a little parochial about the issue but I believe it is important to record something of the view of my electorate. Perhaps everybody would not follow the opinions of the Katherine Times but I believe it is worth reading into Hansard its editorial of Wednesday 11 October. It is headed 'Green Slide into the Red'. It says:' ,

As the federal g.overnm~nt pUSSyf.oOtS its way t.owards the next e,lecti.on while feeling ar.ound f.or an issue .on which t.o hang a campaign. the Territory and Australia face increased ec.on.omic desperati.on. The stalling tactics empl.oyed .on the C.oronati.on Hill pr.oject. in further fickle pandering t.o minority pressure groups. are costing this c.ountry billi.ons .of d.ollars in much-needed exp.ort earnings. Despite a misleading televisi.on campaign in the s.outh. the Cor.onation Hill area is not .one of the beauty spots typically associated with Kakadu. It is not a pretty place. but it does have a hands.ome capacity to payoff a large slice of the foreign debt which has escalated wildly under ,this government. Governments are elected to govern for the good of the country and make decisi.ons accordingly. not with an eye on the next election and an ear cocked for the tri 11 i ng of mi nority groups.

Mr Speaker. I wholeheartedly c.oncur with, that editorial. I think that it c.oncisely encapsulates the view of the community in the Northern TerritorY.and puts precisely our' view as .opposed to that of the minority groups in the south to which the federal government is pandering.

Referring further to the Katherine Times of the same date. I will read into Hansard the first paragraph of the c.olumn by .our federal member. Mr Warren Sn.owdon. It reads:

Last week I made it plain I thought the debate over Cor.onati.on Hill and the Conservati.on Z.one highlighted the need f.or an assessment pr.ocess which w.ould provide for clear avenues f.or all parties involved to express their positi.ons and have them scrutinised.

Mr Speaker. if that d.oes not parallel the 20-minute diatribe we heard fr.om the Leader .of the Opp.ositi.on. in which he did n.ot even address the issue. n.othing does. Like the Leader .of the Opp.osition. the federal member is not prepared t.o c.ome .out and say exactly where he stands. He is obvi.ously having second th.oUghts about his stance. He wants t.o sit .on the fence for a little bit longer. and that is great pity.

This country. in its present ec.on.omic state. cannot aff.ord t.o overlo.ok a mineral dep.osit the size .of C.or.onation Hill. The mine will be .one fifth the size of the federal Parliament H.ouse site and will disturb an area .of 2 km 2

within some 20 000 km 2 of Kakadu Nati.onal Park. Mining c.ompanies have made magnificent advances in terms .of their ability t.o carry out mining activities in an envir.onmentally sensitive way. There is n.o better example of that than the Ranger Uranium Mine. I was .once a member .of the Sessional Committee on the Envir.onment and was most impressed .on my visit t.o that mine. Pri.or t.o that. the media hype had made me rather worried about perceived pr.oblemsat the mine. When I visited the site. I found the reality quite different to the situati.on p.ortrayed in the media.

7522


I do not question the view of the federal government's conservation authorities that BHP has the ability to proceed with this mine in an environmentally sensitive way. I do not deny for a moment that it is only right that environmental guidelines, however stringent, should be put in place for any mining operation, whether it be within a national park or elsewhere. There is a recognised need, in these times~ for mining operations to proceed under strict environmental guidelines. The important thing is that those guidelines be well-enunciated and that companies be made aware of them. On that basis, they can evaluate whether or not mining of mineral deposits should proceed, in view of the additional costs Of complying with the environmental guidelines. That.is the nub of the question we face at the moment.

Clearly, in the case of Coronation Hill, mining can proceed within the strict environmental guidelines that have been set down by the conservation authority which advises the Commonwealth government. That government has shirked the issue by taking the easy way out and deferring a' decision for another year. That is absolutely deplorable. The country cannot stand it and the economy cannot stand it. For the sake of the development of the Northern Territory, we need this mine to proceed. I fully support the motion put forward by the Minister for Mines and Energy and I totally reject the arguments put forward by the opposition.

Mr TUXWORTH (Barkly): Mr Speaker, I am happy to rise and support the motion. My views on Coronation Hill are fairly well-known but I cannot help feeling a sense of deja vu about today's debate. Mr Speaker, you would remember similar debates about Ranger, Koongarra and Jabiluka .. The only aspects tha t have changed are the names and the places. Everythi ng else is the same. The only names which have not been raised this afternoon, names which are just as pertinent to this debate, are Whitlam, R.F.X. Connor, Doug Anthony and Malcolm Fraser. They have to take as much responsibility for the present state of affairs as anybody else. The Fox Report landed' us in this unbelievable mess in the first place.

A moment ago, I was thinking about sacrificial lambs. It occurred to me that, in order for the Northern Territory to have the Ranger mine, Queensland had to give up sandmining on Fraser Island. The company involved lost $18 or $20m for its trouble. The idea of the Northern Territory being used as a sacrificial lamb to appease the environmental lobby and to catch votes for the Commonwealth government is not new. It is at least cO years old, and probably it wi 11 not change until we achieve statehood.. Thi s move by the Commonwea lth in relation to Coronation Hill has nothing to do with the environm~nf, national parks, mining, the balance of trade, land rights or sacred sites. The decision is all about gaining t~epreferences of the green vote in the 3 southern states. Nothing else is relevant .. We are just pigs in a poke being mugged about by the Commonwealth.

The most telling indictment on the Commonwealth position was the interview with Senator Collins on ABC radio some days ago. He has to be admired for his frankness. He sald that it is a bad decision for the Northern Territory. It would have taken some political courage to move away from his colleagues in that way. He said also that it was a good political decision, meaning that the ALP was making a bid for the greenie preferences in marginal seats in Sydney, Melbourne and the golden triangle, in order to stay in power. According to that view, keeping Labor in power is more •••

Mr ~e 11 : Good fO,r Aus tra 1i a .

7523


Mr TUXWORTH: Yes, that is the theory. Keeping Labor in power is a whole lot better than mining Coronation Hill. People down south hold that view. They are not close to the workface as we are and they are not concerned for Australia in the same way that we are.

The other indictment on the government's decision was Senator Richardson's remarks in an interview on the Sunday program. He was pretty suave about everything but, at one stage during the interview, it became apparent that the project was not really off the agenda. It was just delayed a little, as Laurie Oakes said, until after the election. Senator Richardson did not confirm th~t, but you could not come away from watching that interview without the very strong belief that the government was just playing for time.

Later in the week, Mr Hawke started to play down the idea that this was a political decision to get green votes and that the mine might go ahead in 12 months. He conceded that it was possible that the mine could go ahead, but stated that environmental studies would have to be done in order to determine that. This was all going on in the public are~a as if the Australian public was just a bunch of asses. Everybody knows what this is all about. There are no surprises and we should not have any false expectations. We are right on track for an early election. All that has to be decided is whether it is on 2 December, 7 December or early in May. That is the only question which remains to be answered in dealing with this issue. The members of the Labor opposition in this Assembly may be able to throw some light on that but we are just fools to ourselves if we believe for a minute that the environment of the Northern Territory matters anything to members of the federal government.,

I must also say that I am a little concerned at the very low profile of the federal opposition in promoting the cause of mining at Coronation Hill. It has been a little disappointing to watch the media and not see a little more of them.

Another point that I would like to touch on today is one that I feel very strongly about, and my remarks are now directed at the greenies, the environmentalists and the traditional owners. I think one of the things that we need to keep reinforcing in the minds of the Australian public is that many of the benefits that our Australian community enjoys, and I refer to the subsidised health system, the free universities, the social welfare system, and all these things that have been put in place, have been afforded with the wealth generated by some of Australia's most magnificent projects, involving a wide range of minerals including coal, iron ore, gold, uranium and bauxite. But the wealth that ,has been generated from the mineral sector has enabl~d the Australian people to enjoy many benefits that would never have been available if we were relying on the income tax instalments from this country to make them available to the public.

Mr Coulter: $40 OOOm out of Bass Strait alone.

Mr TUXWORTH: Mr Speaker, I will acknowledge that interjection from the Minister for Mines and Energy because that is the sort of thing that ought to be recorded in Hansard, and I do not want to make the debate tedious by listing a whole range of other examples.

I think it is absolutely essential for the greenie movement to understand that we need conservation and not preservation, and that the 2 are poles apart. The sooner we can get some rational dialogue with the greenie movement and establish some middle ground on that issue, the sooner we will start to see reasonable and rational development. I still have an inner concern that,

7524

DEBATES - Thursday It October 1989

even when the green light for Coronation Hill is given ~fter the ~ederal government goes to the polls in the near future, we will have an enormous problem with the environmental movement. It will be the naintree Forest and the Tasmanian dams issue allover aoain, and we do not need that. We need some rational and orderly develbpment with a bit of civil behaviour from groups in the community.

r would like to address some remarks to another group, the Aboriginal traditional owners. I underst~nd why Aboriginal traditional owners get reallv mad when other people interfere with their land. T made representations in this parliament to the minister responsible, when rural residents in the Katherine area were very upset about the activities of NTEC on their land and the actions of the Power and ~Jater Authority in digging up easemerts for sewerage. No one who owns a b 1 od of 1 and 1 i kes anybody t amperi ng with it, whether it be to divide it, develop it, or use it without permission in any other way. We all share that basic human trait and I find it. easy to understa~d that Aborigines with a traditional claim to land would be r~ther angry if they be 1 i eved that other people were about to usurp, overri de or ignore that claim. However, the cold hard fact of life is that every citizen in this country has to face the prospect that, at some stage or another, land may have to be resumed or used for the public good ard the betterment of the community. That resumption of land may be for easements, for power and water or it may be to widen streets or to build freeways. The gentle lady from Koolpinyah here can tell us about how people in the 3? square mile acquisition area felt when the Labor government tried to acquire land in the 32 square mile acquisition area for some grand social scheme conceived in Canberra.

At the risk of perhaps being a little offensive, I would like to m~ke the point that it would be good if the Aboriginal members of our community could appreciate that we understand their antagonism when their land is sought for various opportunities, but that there comes a point when the greater good of the community needs to be considered in the use of that l~nd, and that there needs to be an agreement with them on what ought to be done. I think that is very simply the case at Coronation Hill.

Here is a country, Australia, with a mountain of debt that is not going to go aw~y in the next 100 years. Our great grandchildren will be paying off the mountain of debt that the Hawke Keating government has managed to scramble up in the last 7 years. We are going to need projects like Coronation Hill and dozens, or probably hundreds of others around this nation tc generate the wealth to enable the 'country to afford the things that it wants and that citizens expect that we can reasonably make available. I do not think it is unreasonable for members of this House or anybody else to make a plea to the Aboriginals who are involved and to put that very important econ.omic argument to them. Aboriginals are just like the rest of us. They benefit from the wealth created by mines, as the rest of us do. I refer again to the subsidised health schemes, the free universities, the free education and all the other benefits to the community which are provided by the government. The fact is that those things are made possible by the wealth that we generate out of the land.

During the week, I received a letter from a gentleman who lives in Malak in the northern suburbs of Darwin. I will not mention his name, but he said that he disagreed with my views on mining Coronation Hill because Australia should not be a sandpit for the rest of the world and we should be doing other things to create wealth rather than digging up all our resources. That is a magnanimous thought and, if it were possible, I could 9ive it some serious consideration myself. However, the facts of life, as I see them indicate that

7525


other countries have the capacity and the resources to provide industrial opportunities that we will never provide, whilst we have a store of natural resources which most countries would give their right ,eyes for. Mr Speaker, if you have been to Japan and seen the meagre natural resources which it has, it makes you wonder how it has ever stayed afloat let alone taken over the world economy. About the only raw materials Japan has are the ingredients for making cement. Everything else is imported. Yet, in our country, with all its mineral wealth, people are advocating that we should leave it in the ground so that we do not disturb mother environment.

The minister is quite right to introduce this debate today, to move his motion and register his protest. I would have thought that the idea of an election on the matter was a little unwise but, nevertheless, I think it is appropriate that a protest be made. We are experts at making protests. We have made them over Jabiluka, Koongarra, Jabiru, the offshore oil and gas fields, and Mereenie, and we will make a good fist of it today too.

I will conclude by stressing exactly what this whole cynical, miserable exercise by the Commonwealth is about. It is about winning the preferences of the green vote in the southern states of Australia to enable the Labor Party to stay in power for another 3 years, and God forbid that that should happen. It is about using the Northern Territory, as it has been used' for the last 70 years, as the social playground in which the federal government tries out its various philosophies and practices. We are being used and, until we become a state, that will not change.

Mr POOLE (Araluen): Mr Deputy Speaker, it will be interesting to see how members of the opposition vote on this motion, because some of their remarks indicate that they substantially support the government's position on this matter. The Leader of the Opposition said on 8DDD FM on 6 October: 'I have consistently said that I thought Coronation Hill should go ahead'. On the same day, the member for MacDonnell said: 'I am concerned that the decision on Coronation Hill is not in the best interests of the Territory. I am concerned that BHP has been given a hard time because the rules have been changed'. Another quote from him: 'I think that BHP has got a legitimate beef. If the rules are going to be changed on the basis of a political change in the wind, well, I think they have a legitimate beef'. He was then asked by an interviewer, Col Krohn, whether he supported mining at Coronation Hill. The member for MacDonnell replied: 'Yes, I do. I believe that Aboriginal concerns are able to be taken into consideration. I have had the opportunity to find out about the impact of mining in the Alligator Rivers area and I am satisfied in that regard too that mining in this region, at Coronation Hill and in that area, is possible in an environmentally sensible and sensitive way'. On the same radio program, Senator Bob Collins said: 'I think it is a very bad decision for the Northern Territory. I would probably have to concede that the government has probably made the correct decision politically'.

Mr Deputy Speaker, when we hear such comments from "our own Northern Territory Labor politicians, it is strange that the the Prime Minister stands up and says that the Cabinet decision is 'a victory for all Australians'. Obviously, he did not consider the Aboriginal Australians who live in the area concerned. I am told that the unemployment rate amongst the Jawoyn people in the Katherine area' is about 70%, more than double the Northern Territory's average. I am also told that, if this mine went ahead, at least 60 Aboriginal people would be employed. Obviously, the decision is not good for all Australians, particularly the locals from the Katherine area who are very concerned about their country. As far as Australia is concerned, no one would

7526


deny that it is a bad decision economically. Reducing the Conservation Zone by 98% wi 11 1 ead to the 1 ocki ng away of up to $7000m worth of resources, something which the nation can ill afford. These resources could be developed without causing any real damage to a magnificent part of Australia.

In yesterday's edition of The Australian, there was an interesting article by John Hyde. Whilst the environmentalists and the federal government might think that they have won the battle, the first in terms of protecting the environment and the second in terms of winning the green vote, the article points out that a rational look at the issues suggests that both may very well lose the war. It begins by saying that:

The natural environment itself will be one of 3 great losers from the greenies' election-year win over mining in and around the Kakadu National Park. The other, more obvious, losers will be the economy and the credi bil ity, both at home and abroad, of the word of Australian governments.

It goes on to say:

..• those who have perceived the environmenia1 dangers. have a considerable and vital task ahead of them. But, unless they are prepared to set democracy aside, their ability to undertake the task wi 11 depend upon the popu1 Ii r support they have and can ho1 d. I say 'and can hold' because the sorts of changes they seek to prevent are irreversible or reversible only very slowly. For good or evil, what is done to the natural environment during the periods of minimum environmentalist influence will tend to stay done.

Before an election, a tightly-held block of votes can be very influential. The Hawke government has made almost no attempt to pretend that the greens' victory was won on other than political grounds. It was the purchase of that 2% of the national vote that under democratic rules determines elections.

After the poll, however, the government. of whichever party, will be taken up with economic matters. The International Monetary Fund will not yet be knocking on its door, but the spectre of economic crisis - devaluation, default and sharply falling living standards - will attend every Cabinet meeting. The green victory is likely to be short-lived.

Even before the election, the votes Labor will get from the environmentalists must, at least in part, be offset by having to explain to those voters who are concerned for the economy why there is not a significant new mining development under way or in immediate prospect.

More generally, the greens must have noticed that it is in the countries such as Poland, with chronic payment problems and declining living standards, that the environment gets least consideration. This is rational behaviour on the part of the Poles. Environmental protection comes at a price that we in Australia can afford and they cannot.

When Mr Keating's soft landing comes along, unemployment will rise and living standards fall. Then the contribution of environmental policies to the balance of payment problems, which made the credit

7527

DEBATES - Thursday 12 October 19P9

squeeze necessary, will not go unremarked. There will be a backlash against greenyism in which Coronation Hill and Wesley Vale will feature largely.

Mr Deputy Speaker, the article is quite lengthy. It goes on to make further relevant comment.

The greens are laying a credibility problem in store for the environmentalist cause. On 3 counts, the attempt by some ill-advised creen spokesman to present tourism and mining as alternatives at Kakadu were not honest. In the first place, the mine is only 1 km 2

among ?5 000 km 2 of what is really clapped-out buffalo country .•.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I think thnt reference should be to 2 km 2 • Also, J do not particularly agree that the area is clapped-out buffalo country. I accept that, if buffalo are removed, areas such as this can gree~ up and become reasonable plots of dirt. However, it certainly does not compare with any of the escarpment areas or the waterway areas of Kakadu National Park.

t1r Hyde goes on to state that 'tourists will do far more to change the Kakadu environment than will a mine and treatment plant set back from the river' and that 'the mine will both be a tourist attraction in its own right and help to provide the facilities without which tourism is confined to the few people who undertake safaris'.

In my experience of the development of Kakadu National Park and the various arguments we have had with the ANPWS and the federal government over the years, it certainly has never been brought to my attention that anybody wanted to go into that area from a tourist point of view. Although I do not claim to be an authority on Aboriginal people, I would suggest that one of the reasons it is called 'sickness country' is that it is fairly undesirable country from a visitation point of view, let alone from a living point of view. Certainly, the argument about tourism in the area does not stand up to scrutiny. To my knowledge, there are no tourist operators, apart from a couple of very small safari operators, who have taken people through that country and, even then, they have done so on their way to either natural attractions.

Mr Hyde goes on to say that blatant misuse of argument will eventually call into Question even the soundest environmental arguments and that, for all of the reasons he has outlined, the green victory at Coronation Hill will prove temporary. He believes that there are better courses of action open to environmentalists in pro~oting the tourism argument and his article touches on one of them. At the end of the day, all governments, including the Northern Territory government, ha ve a great problem. They want to conserve thei r natural environments and to have a subtle approach to tourism which allows areas to be opened up, without putting up buildings in the middle of national parks, so that people can visit attractive locations with adequate facilities. They want the sort of tourism development which has a minimal impact on the countryside.

I can recall debates about 3 years ago when multi-million dollar figures were bandied about by the federal Labor government in relation to the development of Kakadu National Park. If my memory serves me correctly, what started off at about $270m eventually became $15m or $16m spent on a few walkways, camping areas, barbecues and pit toilets. I am not saying that what has been done there is not welcome. However, there is an obvious need to spend much more money and to do much more to manage tourism because of the effects of tourism on the environment generally.

7528


Rather than opposing the activities of BHP at Coronation Hill, it would have been much more sensible to do a deal which would have allowed the mine to proceed. After all, it has passed the most stringent environmental conditions and inquiries which have ever been imposed on a mining company anywhere. The deal could have involved the expenditure of some of BHP's hard-earned profits on promoting and developing the park. I am sure a company like BHP would have loved to have the opportunity, at the end of the financial year, to write off some money that was invested in environmental development of Kakadu National Park. It would be pleased to do it because it would give it an image, not only in Australia but also in the worldwide corporate scene - and I am not saying that this contradicts its present image - as a company which cares about the environment and is prepared to contribute financially to national park development in a way that benefits the taxpayers of Australia. I ask honourable memhers to consider the amount of money which a company like BHP spends on advertising and to imagine the effect if all its corporate advertising promoted the beauty of places like Kakadu National Park.

Even the Minister for Primary Industries and Energy, Hon John Kerin. said whilst he was in Europe that Australia could not afford to lose the export income which would be created by the proposed mine at Coronation Hill in Kakadu. Speakinq from Europe, Mr Kerin said: 'The federal government should approve the mine rather than listen to conservationists whose claims were not based on the most thorough examination of the facts. I take the view that, if you can treat the areas environmentally sensitively, without any harm to the Alligator River, then we should proceed with it. I believe governments should go ahead rather than listen to the decibels out on the street which are not based on the most thorough examination of the facts'. He said 'mining the Kakadu Conservation Zone, which has a mineral worth estimated at $7000m, would ease Australia's disastrous balance of payments figures without destroying the region's tourism potential'.

If it is ever mined, one of the products that will come out of Coronation Hill is platinum. I understand that there are some 30 000 proven ounces of platinum there plus, possibly, another 26 000 ounces. There are 101 ounces of pa11adium proven and possibly another 84 000 ounces. These amounts are in addition to 674 000 ounces of proven gold deposits and the possibility of a further 500 000 ounces. The day before a decision was taken not to make a decision, Senator Richardson issued a press release talking about the role that platinum plays in catalytic converters in the motor vehicle industry in Australia. Basically, he was saying that we have a prohlem because we have to import it all from the Soviet Union and it is costing us a fortune. Actually, we do not buy it from the Soviet Union but from South Africa. We have enough platinum not only to provide enough for the requirements of our motor vehicle manufacturing industry, but also to earn some dollars by exporting it to other places. The product could be used to make some major advancements in environmental conservation. The timing of that press release was somewhat peculiar.

It will be interesting to see how opposition members vote on this motion. I do not see how they can vote against it because almost everyone of them has made public comment at some stage to the effect that Coronation Hill should be mined. They have said that, in many respects, they support the Northern Territory's rights in the matter. However, they cannot bring themselves to stand up here today and say: 'Richardson is wrong. The Northern Territory is right'. The federal government has made a great mistake which, at the end of the day will probably do more harm than good to the environmental cause. All the decisions that have been made so far have been made purely for short-term political gain.

7529


Mr Deputy Speaker, I ask honourable members opposite to support this motion for the betterment of Australia. I note that the member for Arnhem thinks this is humorous. I do not think that it is humorous at all. About 60 of his own people would end up being employed if this mine went ahead. I reiterate that the unemployment rate amongst the Jawoyn people is twice the average of the unemployment rate in the Northern Territory. Members opposite have a very shallow and hypocritical attitude, and I look forward to seeing which side of the House they move to when the vote is taken.

Mr EDE (Stuart): Mr Speaker, there is no doubt that there has been a sea change in Australian politics over the last few years. The arguments are changing. If one looks at the early period of Australian history, one .sees that there was conflict between the convicts and the ·free settlers. Gradually, that was replaced by conflict between the landed and the landless. During the last part of the nineteenth century and the early parts of this century, there was a long period in which the main conflict could be said to have been between the bosses and the workers.

We are now seeing another major change. Attitudes seem to be developing in 2 main directions. One group sees the quality of life as being paramount. These people are quite happy for service-related industries to go ahead. They talk about clean, smart industry in areas such as communications, the financial seGtor and the manufacture of value-added products. They look at places like Japan, Korea and Taiwan, areas with no resources. They look at the staggering growth rates of those economies, their burgeoning gross national products and their burgeoning per capita incomes. While they do riot want the sort of lifestyles which people in those nations have, they want that type of development for Australia. The other end of the spectrum is categorised by the visions which I grew up with. They were visions of broad acres of farms, with harvesters bringing in the wheat, thousands of sheep moving into shearing sheds and long streams of white-faced Poll Herefords walking beside creeks while, in the big resburce industries, huge machines carved out the sides of mountains and moved vast quantities of soil.

Those 2 groups seem to be moving further and further apart in Australia and it seems that a new dichotomy is taking over from the old bosses versus workers dichotomy. One has to acknowledge that governments which fail to respond to shifts of that nature do so at their peril. Where is the protectionist party of today? Where are the free traders? They have been consigned to history. They have been overtaken by time and change. What has happened at. the federal level is quite obvious, as the member for Barkly indicated. The federal government has recognised that the best thing for Australia in the long term is a Labor government and, in order to ensure that such a government will come about, has taken the necessary course of action.

Mr Speaker, I have never believed that numerous mines would pop up in the Conservation Zone. Even in terms of the forces which existed a few years ago, I felt that talk about gaining the benefits of $5000m or $7000m worth of mineralisation in that area was probably unrealistic. Even then, the pressures were building up, along with the sea change in Australian politics, which would ensure that extremely stringent environmental safeguards would be

cplaced on mining activity in that area. If, in fact, places like El Sherana and Coronation Hill are the best areas of mineralisation, they would probably be the only sites where the rewards would be sufficient to justify the very expensive headworks and conservation works that would be required to allow the projects to proceed.

7530


Until a couple of months ago, I thought that it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that, sooner or later, Coronation Hill and El Sherana would be mined. I must admit that I am now nowhere near as confident that that is the case. I am not an engineer but a number of people with expertise have told me that the richness of the resource and the engineering works which could be put in place would, together, ensure that the area could be mined economically whilst safeguarding the environment. On that basis, I told people: 'If that is the only problem, I believe that the Coronation Hill mine should go ahead'. I do not pretend to know the details in relation to El Sherana, or what environmental problems exist in that area, or whether it would be possible to engineer something there. Since then, however, there have been a number of moves. One of those occurred here in the Northern Territory. It related to negotiations'with Aboriginal people. Under our own legislation, it was essential to negotiate with Aboriginal people. The area has been registered as a sacred site since 1985. Ever since then it has been necessary, under our legislation, to negotiate a plan which will allow for mining in that area. That was successfully done in terms of the exploration works, which are now complete. I believed that, if we continued to negotiate in that spirit, mining could proceed~

Mr Coulter: So what went wrong?

Mr EDE: I am glad that the minister asked that. What went wrong was the ridiculous, absolutely pig-headed way in which this government pushed through the new Aboriginal Sacred Sites Act.

Mr Coulter: So that is why we are not mining Coronation Hill.

Mr EDE: Exactly, and if you will be patient, I will explain.

Mr Coulter: What about Mt Samuel? Was that the same?

Mr EDE: If the honourable minister wants to listen, I will explain. I am not so much talking about why mining is not occurring now at Coronation Hill as why I am becoming more and more doubtful as to whether mining will occur at Coronation Hill. That is becoming more and more doubtful because, when this government pushed through the new Aboriginal Sacred Sites Act, Aboriginal people became so angry that the credibility of our legislation. carefully built up over the years, was destroyed to the extent that Aboriginal people said: 'If that is your attitude and that is the best that you can do. we will go to the federal government and we will make application under its heritage legislation'.

Mr Speaker. one must wonder what is happening. What will happen in 12 months time after Justice Stewart has completed his inquiry? What if he recommends that mining not occur in the area because the provisions of the Commonwealth heritage legislation should apply?

Mr Coulter: The indications are that there is no Aboriginal affiliation in the area. as Justice Kearney said.

Mr EDE: Justice Kearney did not actually say that. He made an exception in relation to Bula sites. to which he said the Jawoyn had very strong cultural attachments.

On the other hand, if Justice Stewart says that. as far as he is concerned. mining can proceed, where does that leave us? We will be exactly where we were some time ago. We will still have to go through the sacred sites process under Northern Territory legislation.

7531

DEBATES - Thursday 12 October 19R9

Mr Coulter: Is that right?

Mr EDE: It is. There is a process set out in the new act, and that process has not yet commenced. The mining company must first make application to carry out works and, on the basis of my guesstimate, I believe that the process would take at least 9 months from that point. At the moment, the Northern Territory act is being bypassed. A veritable flood of applications are now going to Canberra, asking the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs to act under federal legislation.

Mr Coulter: Remember what Holding said when he introduced the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act?

Mr EDE: Yes, I remember what he said. This government created the problem by pushing through new sacred sites legislation and giving discretion to the minister.

Mr Coulter: Do you support what is happening?

Mr EnE: Have you been listening to what I have said?

We do not want the Northern Territory act to be bypassed and to see a flood of applications being made to the federal government for sites to be registered under the federal heritage act. I do not believe that we want to lose powers in relation to our ability to legislate in that area. I believe that the provisions of our previous sacred sites legislation were worked out in conjunction with the Fraser government. We worked with that legislation for quite some time and I believe that the Northern Territory should be able to protect, control, safeguard and do all the work necessary in looking after sacred sites in the Territory. What is more, I believe that the federal government wants that to occur too. I do not believe that the federal government really wants to have the federal minister involved in the long-winded processes that are required for every sacred site registration in the Northern Territory. There are hundreds of sacred sites and a minister would have to be responsible solely for that function.

At the moment, we are going down a loop road. At the end of the day, we will come back to where we were quite some time ago in relation to sacred sites. At that stage, we will have to start again. If we do not want to have our ability to work in relation to sacred sites legislation continually bypassed, we will have to amend our Northern Territory act in such a way that we can obtain agreement with the federal government that it will not bypass our legislation and that it will accept it in the terms set out by the former federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, Hon Clyde Holding, in the words quoted earlier by the Minister for Mines and Energy. If the federal government agrees that our act covers the area, we would then be able to carry out the process. However, if we are to negotiate with the federal government in those terms, the minister's discretion under Northern Territory legislation will definitely arise. As long as that discretion remains, there will be, at the very least, full appeal processes in the courts.

Mr Coulter: Will you be supporting the motion?

Mr EDE: certainly will not be supporting the motion. It makes statements that ridicule the Aboriginal cultural significance of that area. I think that those remarks are outrageous, provocative and ridiculous.

Mr Coulter: What if we take them out?

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DEBATES - Thursday Ie October 1989

Mr ErE: Mr Speaker. if we are to get on with the job. this government will have to sit down with the federal government and negotiate amendments to the Aboriginal Sacred Sites Act.

There is no doubt that. as Territorians. we have lost out in this process. We have lost the economic benefits of the mining that would have occurred. The Prime Minister stated that there were economic benefits to be gained by not mining that area. and that tourism would be the source of those benefits. We can simply scream and send nff motions like the one hefore the House or we can take him at his word. If he says that there are particular benefits for the Northern Territory to be gained by not mining the area. we can utilise that statement as an opportunity to negotiate infrastructural works there.

Mr Coulter: They told us that when they closed •••

Mr EDE: If. as you maintain. you lost that one. all you have done is scream. shout. rave and yell. Have you ever won a thing by those tactics?

The minister most certainly has not won anything by behaving in that way and I am suggesting to him that he tone down the decibels for once and think his way through the processes. He should determine what is the best achievable goal for Northern Territorians in terms of obtaining economic benefits. and then work out a strategy and tactics to achieve that goal. I have given him a couple of clues as to how to go about that. For the long-term benefit of the Territory. one strategy has to be to enter into negotiations to amend the Aboriginal Sacred Sites Act so that the federal act becomes. at the very most. a last resort. In the meantime. we should work to open up the window of opportunity which the Prime Minister referred to and try to put in place the infrastructure which will allow us to take at least those benefits.

Mr ~cCARTHY (Labour. Administrative Services and Local Government): Mr Speaker. I will be brief. My support for carefully managed mining is well known. I want to add my support to the Mi ni ster for Mi nes and Energy's motion.

I cannot think of anything more cynical than the action of the federal Cabinet recently in deciding not to proceed with mining at Coronation ~ill at this stage. and in decreasing the size of the Conservation Zone. That will be easily recognised by the people of Australia as a very cynical act. It has been brought about only because of an imminent federal election. There can be no other reason. We know that the,more powerful ministers of the Commonwealth were against any delay. They wanted to see the mine go ahead. We know that there were differing opinions. not only within the federal Cabinet but also among the members of the Labor Party in the Northern Territory. We know that the member for the Northern Territory and Senator Bob Collins had opposing views. We are very much aware of those.

We know that. for some time, Senator Bob Collins has espoused mining at Coronation Hill. Unlike the member for Arnhem. he has a view that is supportive of the Territory rather than supportive of a group of people whom he has spoken to in the area. Like the Minister for Primary Industry and Fisheries, I also heard the member for Arnhem say: 'The numbers there who \I/ant the mine are very small. Forget about them. I am not interested in them'. I think that is a very cynical attitude. It is the sort of attitude that was taken by the federal Cabinet in coming to a decision to delay mining at Coronation Hill.

7533


Mr Speaker, I would like to quote from a column by Senator Collins in the NT News on 30 September, which is headed 'Minister Stuns':

Good morning. The future of a small scarred hill in the Territory provok~d a debate rif giant proportions in the national capital this week. I was stunned when I heard the federal Environment Minister, Senator Graham Richardson, plan to· seek a lengthy delay in any decision on mining Coronation Hill. In my book, that is not on.

Mr Speaker, we know where Bob Collins stands. Obviously, he stands more in support of the Territory than any of the members opposite who have spoken so far. They have all opposed the motion. They have their own personal interests in this, not the interests of the Territory. The federal Cabinet members have their own personal interests at stake and have taken the decision on that basis. They are rather strange bedfellows because we have Senator Graham Richardson and Hon Gerry Hand in bed together from the left and the right of the Labor Party. In order to further their own ends, both are cynically using the position which other members of the Cabinet have adopted for political reasons. In his short time as Minister for the Environment, Senator Graham Richardson has done more to close down development than any other minister in history. No other minister, whether in that portfolio or not, has done more to close down development. Of course, we all know that Hon Gerry Hand is opposed to anything that is likely to improve the lot of the Territory. .

Quite clearly, the decision has sold out the wider economic interests not only of the Territory but Australia. At stake are $7000m in gold, platinum and palladium earnings. All of that wealth has been sold out for the green vote, and only for that. Senator Bob Collins'was reported in the NT News as saying: 'I am extremely disappointed, but I have to say that politically the government, as much as I hate to say it, has probably made the correct decision'. That was rather an unusual statement. However, he knows it is not the right decision for the Northern Territory or the right decision for Australia.

I would like to follow up on some comments made by the Chief Minister this morning in answer to a question on the misinformation campaign that has taken place Australia-wide with regard to Kakadu and Coronation Hill. Generally, I am appalled at what we see on television and in the newspapers and magazines in this misinformation campaign. Sometimes I think it is perpetrated by those who would see an end to all development, not only in the Territory but in Australia. On occasion is perpetrated out of ignorance, but at times I think it is perpetrated by people with other motives which I cannot claim to comprehend. I have with me today a couple of extracts from magazines which are a little outside the normal range. One is from 'Flight Deck', the magazine of Australian Airlines. We all know that the airlines are in bed with the federal government on a range of matters and I think that there may be something more sinister in the some of the contents of this magazine than first meets the eye.. The magazine contains a colour photograph with a caption which reads: 'Wangi Falls in Kakadu National Park'. I think that there could be something a little sinister in that. Perhaps Wangi Falls isto be in a Stage 4 of Kakadu, and perhaps Australian Airlines knows a little more than we do. It talks to the federal government about the pilots' dispute on a daily basis and perhaps it knows that the federal government is planning to make Litchfield Park Stage 4 of Kakadu. 'Wangi Falls in Kakadu National Park'. That is misinformation. We all know that it is in Litchfield National Park.

7534


Another comment comes from INew Ideal. I said that these magazines are outside the range of publications normally referred to in this House. In a feature about wildlife in Australia and the desert creatures of central Australia, there is a comment which refers to the Northern Territory: IThe situation becomes grimmer when it is realised that the Northern Territory government has set aside only 0.6% of the southern portion of the Territory for conservation compared to 3% and upwards in other states l • In fact, that is quite wrong. This article purports to be representative of the areas set aside for conservation across Australia but it compares a small portion of the Northern Territory with the whole of other states.

In fact, the Northern Territory government has set aside 3.13265% of the whole of the Territory for conservation purposes. It is in the control of the Conservation Commission. That is better than the percentage quoted by INew Ideal in respect of the states mentioned and it does not even take into account the ANPWS-controlled land at Kakadu and Uluru. It does not take into account the 37% of Australia which is effectively conserved under Aborigihal Land Rights. The fact is that more land in the Northern Territory is set aside for conservation than in any of the states. Taken together, Aboriginal land, land held by the ANPWS, and land managed by the Conservation Commission, would account for approaching 50% of the Territoryls area.

The federal government, and quite a lot of the southern media, would have us believe that, if you stood on Coronation Hill, you would gaze down on Jim Jim Falls. That is what they would have us believe, because that is the sort of information they have been putting out on television and spouting on radio. Mr Speaker, those are just some of the examples of misrepresentation.

I listened to a comment from a Mr Press of the ANPWS. I have not met the man, but I heard him saying that the reduction in the size of the Conservation Zone will place 'much more land under the control of the ANPWS, which would be able to start spending some money and attracting large numbers of visitors. I have been to Coronation Hill. I have no desire to go there as a tourist. I can see exactly the same sort of country just outside my back door at Batchelor. I can see it as I drive along the track to and from work every day. The country is very similar. I would see nothing new at Coronation Hill and nothing would attract me there as a tourist.

I am not saying that areas in the Conservation Zone are not significant to Aboriginal people. They may well be, but they are not attractive to tourists. Some small parts may be very significant. I am not sure that the member for Arnhem knows where those small parts are.

Mr Lanhupuy: I do not, I assure you.

Mr McCARTHY: I am sure I do not know either, and I admit that freely. I am sure you do not either. However, I know that there are Jawoyn people in the Katherine area and in the Barunga and Beswick areas who know a good deal about that country, and that a substantial number of them support mining there. The member for Arnhem is one person who has come out in support of breakaway land councils, because he believes that numbers count. Why then is he not supporting his constituents among the Jawoyn people who have some say in relation to this matter? I do not know how strong their say is. I have it on good authority, though, that those people did not see a great deal of significance in Coronation Hill at the time of the Jawoyn land claim, and it cannot lightly be said now that they did not see it as significant because it was outside the area of the claim, because they took members of the field party to areas outside the claim which they said were significant. They did

7535


not take them to Coronation Hill and, at that time, they did not claim that Coronation Hill was significant.

I think that it has been a very cynical exercise, and that members of the opposition in this House should be ashamed of their role in it. They have not really made any effort to ensure that the federal government kept its promises to the mining companies involved. I believe that they have good reason to hang their heads in shame. This is a matter that will have dire effects for the Northern Territory. It will continue to have dire effects for the Northern Territory and for Australia.

I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a green vote out there. It is a misinformed vote, but it exists. People might even fall for the blatant vote-buying exercise of the federal government. If they do, it will be only because they are the victims of an excellent con job, the sort of con job that I referred to in the magazines from which I quoted and that we see every time Coronation Hill or mining in Kakadu is mentioned in the southern media or on television. It is a very successful con job, one of the kind used by the federal government in almost every instance where it wants to get its own way. It is the sort of con job that the federal government has pulled on the Australian people in relation to the pilots' dispute. As long as this federal government is in power, we will continue to see such con jobs. I believe that, with the passage of time, the people of the Northern Territory will wake up to that con job. We have not been as effective as we would have liked to have been in getting across the true story. At present, people have been convinced that we, the Territory government and the Territory people, are rednecks intent on mining and damaging the environment.

Earlier in this debate, the member for MacDonnell argued that our actions in respect of Mt Todd paralleled those of the federal government in relation to Coronation,Hill. As the Minister for Primary Industry and Fisheries pointed out, the environmental impact statement for Coronation Hill has been completed and there is no need for it to be done again. The situation at Mt Todd is different. The EIS has not been carried out and this government has said that it must be done, and quite rightly so.

Some cynicism is being displayed by members opposite. The member for Stuart, in saying that he would not support the motion moved by the Minister for Mines and Energy, claimed that it attacked Aboriginal cultural significance and Aboriginal cultural areas. It does nothing of the sort. It points out quite definitely, however, that a hoax is being perpetrated and that the mine at Coronation Hill will not damage areas of Aboriginal significance. All the homework has been done. The environmental impact statement is complete. The Coronation Hill mine cannot affect any area of significance to Aboriginal people. It will occupy a very tiny area. This morning, we saw a picture of the mine site superimposed on a picture of the federal Parliament House. It is one-fifth the size of that building. Incidentally, I wonder whether an environmental impact statement was produced before that project began and whether anyone considered whether its location was of importance to Aboriginal people.

The Coronation Hill mine site is a very tiny point in a 20 000 km 2 park. Kakadu is not the only 20 000 km 2 park in the Northern Territory. The Gregory National Park is very similar in size and has been set aside by the Northern Territory government for conservation purposes. We are ahead of the states in conservation. We are already in front of the federal government in conservation and Aboriginal affairs. I commend the motion of the Minister for Mines and Energy. I believe that, if the members opposite do not support it,

7536


they will be shown to be blatantly misinterpreting the situation at Coronation Hill for their own political gain.

Mr lANHUPUY (Arnhem): Mr Speaker, often we hear members of the government, particularly the member for Victoria River, talking about parks being set aside in the Territory. Of course, we support the setting aside.of areas for parks. There is no doubt about that. I have said publicly, inside and outside this House, that I support this government's action in setting up parks and in consulting with the community in that process, particularly the Aboriginal community. As far as I am concerned, the motion moved by the Minister for Mines and Energy does not help that situation. In fact, I will be voting against the minister's motion because it criticises and questions responsibilities which Aboriginal people have according to their culture and religion.

For a long time, we have heard that Aboriginal people were not seen in the Coronation Hill area, in the vicinity of El Sherana, or in the area of the Conservation Zone throughout the 1930s and even in the 1920s. Do you know why, Mr Speaker? If they had gone on those mining leases or pastoral properties, they would have been shot. That was the way things were done, because of the attitude that whites brought into Australia and they way they divided this land. That was one of the reasons why Aboriginal people left that area and went to communities like Gunbalanya and Warruwi. Some even lived on the periphery of Pine Creek. I can remember Toby Gangali, one of the major claimants in stage 1 of the Alligator Rivers Land Claim, saying: 'Once I get my land, I am going to go back and live there'.

Mr Speaker, we are ta lki ng about 1 and that has been granted by the federal government for a mining lease. I understand that fact and I accept that the Aboriginal people, in making a claim to that land, had to advise the Aboriginal Land Commissioner in relation to some of the sites in that area which are significant to them. I bel ieve that Coronation Hi 11 was one of them.

I spoke about Peter Djadpula, one of the main traditional owners for the area where Coronation Hill stands, and with Robert Lee, Geoffrey MacDonald and Ray Fordimail last week. I asked them specifically about their views in relation to the mining of Coronation Hill because we knew that the federal government was to make a decision on whether or not mining was to occur. I took the time to go down and see them, Mr Speaker, and do you know what they said to me? I am talking about the members of the working party nominated by 300 Jawoyn people. They are the mouthpiece of the Jawoyn Association. They specifically said to me: 'Wesley, it is in our interests that the mining of Coronation Hill does not proceed'. They said that to me specifically, especially old Peter Djadpula. He said: 'If the mining goes. ahead on Coronation Hill, do you know what I am going to do? I am going to lose my cultural values, and not only for myself. My children and my children's grandchildren will not be able to participate in a ceremony that includes significant ceremonies relating to Coronation Hill'. .

We hear this government saying that it has consulted with the Aboriginal people. That is true. In my contribution to the debate on the budget, I indicated that, probably, one of these days Coronation Hill will be mined. There are people who would like to see it mined. We keep hearing that there are Aboriginal people who would like to see it mined. There may be,. but I have not run across one. That is why the Aboriginal people in that area are trying to form an alliance with groups, such as the Australian Conservation Foundation, which have shown some interest in assisting them. That is one of

7537

DEBATES - Thursday 12 October 19P9

the re~sons why they have indicated to me that they are willing to bring people from east Arnhem Land, the Gulf area and Borroloola to give them support in the event that mining at Coronation Hill is given the go-ahead. It is just as well that the federal government deferred its decision until a commission has assessed how important the site is to Abori9inal people. We are talking about probably 8 families who have specific religious rights to the area around Coronation Hill. If it were mined, they would lose their CUltural values and their' cultural 'heritage within that area. I am speaking about 3 people.


Mr LANHUPUY: Mr Speaker, I would rather not comment on any interjections because it would be a bit hard for me to explain how valuable my religious rights are to me in relation to my upbringing. It may be all right for the member for Araluen to pack ~p his gear in Canada, come 'across here, get a job and become a minister in no time whatsoever. It is hard for people like Ray Fordimail and Robert Lee to move from Katherine, to leave their mothers' ~nd grandparents' home, ~nd go to Alice Springs or even Sydney or Melbourne. They cannot live there and'be respected in the way they are now respected at home. That is what we are talking about. That is the important issue among the people at Barunga, Beswick,Bulman, Mount Catt, Pine Creek and Cannon Hill. That is the most important thing to them. There are about 6 or 7 families invQlved.

Wouldn't it be a shame if we went along with what the Minister for Mines and Energy said and got the federal minister's okay for mining at Coronation Hill but, in the process, helped to destroy a culture that belongs to a 9roup of people? I for one would not like to be in the position of being responsible for losing someone's culture forever, too blind to see what they have to do within their own rites. If the member for Sadadeen i~laughing, I would rather not say anything to him. I think it is the usual argument we get up here: try to educate your people. 30% of the Territory's population is made up of Abori9inal people. Let us try and sit down and work these things out, Nr Speaker.

I support what the federal minister has done in relation to deferrin9 a decision on this matter. I hcnestly,support it, because I am worried about those people out there. '

Mr Coulter: What about the 70 ,Jawoyn people who want mining to proceed? no you' support them? What about them sending a petition to the minister asking for the mine to proceed?

Mr LANHUPUY: Mr Sp~aker, I have news for the Minister for Mines and Energy. The 70 people who si9ned that letter supporting the mine were under duress, and some of them did not even know 'what they were signing. That story came from '"

~r Coulter: IS that right?

Mr Manzie: Poor Aboriginals. Couldri't think for themselves, eh!

Mr LANHUPUY: ... and Robert Lee. Check those facts out. ,Mr Speaker, I was down there: I am told that, in fact, some of those people signed without knowing what the content of the letter was.

7538


I understand that mlnlng might go ahead one of these days, but what we want at this stage ;s time. Those people have just emerged from 10 years of fighting for the Katherine Gorge National P~rk - 10 years, Mr Speaker!

Mr Coulter: Justice Kearney said they have no affiliations north of the Katherine Gorge - north of 14°10' in fact.

Mr LANHUPUY: Mr Speaker, if the Minister for Mines and Enerqy had been here earlier, he would know why Aboriginal people probably lost some attachment to that specific area over a period of time, even though it was part of their ceremonies and their songs. That will never go away, Mr Speaker. The Minister for Mines and Energy may mine that area, but those people will know it as it is and as it will be, Mr Speaker .•.

Members interjectinq.

Mr LANHUPUY: ..• and I will tell you that now. If the Minister for Mines and Energy would take the time to get down and see those people at Beswick, Bamyili and Katherine, if he would ••.

Mr Coulter: I have been there!

Mr LANHUPUY: ... get amongst them and see them and talk ~ith them, I am sure he would get an impression of how they feel ••.

Mr Coulter: Have you ever been to Coronation Hill?

Mr LANHUPUY: Yes, I have.

Mr Coulter: When?

Mr LANHUPUY: Ask Jimmy Green.

Mr Coulter: When?

Mr LANHUPUY: I am not going to tell you. At least, I took ...


~r LANHUPUY: ••• the opportunity to talk to some of those people.

Mr Speaker, in relation to the site itself .••


Mr- SPEAKER: Order! The member for Arnhem will be heard in silence and I would ask the Minister for Mines and Energy to remain silent. r also ask the member for fIIhulunbuy to remain silent. J am very serious about this. The honourab 1 e member wi 11 conti nue •.

Mr LANHUPlIY: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

In relation to the actual site itself, I am in no position to talk about other people's sites or cultural values. I am not in a position to question such thi ngs. I am not enough of an elder to do that nor woul d other pe'op 1 e do it on my behalf. But there is a cultura.l link and, if the custodians or jungayi for the Bula site and for that area, request the support of people from Arnhem Land, through the Gulf area even down to Borroloola, they will get

7539

DEBATES - Thursday 12 October 19R9

that support. I can assure you of that, Mr Speaker, because there is a cultural link that will never be broken in spite of mining or any other sort of development.

That cultural link is one of my reasons for supporting the Commonwealth government in deferring a decision on mining at Coronation Hill. If the federal government had said 'Go ahead and mine', Aboriginal people and all those people who are out there to give us assistance, who sympathise with Aboriginal people's aspirations, would be out there fighting like hell. If the Northern Territory government did what the Minister for Mines and Energy talked about when he was Acting Chief Minister, and called a snap election, we would be back in the old situatiol) of black against white.

Mr Setter: Your federal colleagues would not want a federal election going on, would they?

~lr LANHUPUY: Mr Speaker, that is what the Minister for ~lines and Energy was aiming for. He wanted a federal election so he could say that Aboriginal people had stopped a major development, without knowing how people feel out there. Sure, some of the people out there want to mine this area, but the big majority is against any mining in the Conservation Zone. A great many people in Katherine would be disappointed, I think, together with many people at Jabiru, if the mine went ahead without their consent.

The opposition will be very pleased to take steps which ensure that the the views of the people of the Territory are heard,. especially those of the Aboriginal people who have clearly indicated that they do not want any mining in the Coronation Hill area. We will take into account the needs of some of those people out there who see mining as a benefit but, by going about it slowly, I am sure that each and everyone's needs will be met.

Mr HATTON (Conservation): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the motion and to deal with a couple of the issues.

Before I go any further, I would like to make a couple of comments on the views expressed by the member for Arnhem. I do it in this context. I do not claim to fully understand Aboriginal law and culture. I do appreciate its significance to Aboriginal people and its vital importance to them and I must say that, as a result of many discussions with the member for Arnhem inside anc outside this Chamber, J have great respect for his views in relation to Aboriginal law and culture. I am very loath to challenge his knowledge, and I certainly would not challenge his honesty in expressing his views on the subject. However, I must say that, if everything the honourable member said is true, I cannot understand what has been occurring in the last 5 or 6 years and what will occur in the next 12 months that could not have occurred in the last 5 or 6 years. Thct is the fundamental cause of people's frustration. Now, let us consider this particular project.

Mr Lanhupuy: They were workinr, on the Katherine land claim.

Mr HATTON: Mr Speaker, the honourable member refers to the Katherine land clain. The hearing stopped over 3 years ago. There has been ongoing consultation, for the last 3 or 4 years to my knowledge, between the Jawoyn people, the federal government and the Coronation Hill joint venturers. I know that those negotiations have been taking place over that period. What are the next 12 months going to accomplish that was not accomplished in the last half dozen years? That is the cause of frustration, not just in respect of Aboriginal cultural matters but right across the spectrum of issues associated with the mining proposal.

7540

nEBATES - Thursday 12 October 1989

The Coronation Hill deposit was discovered and identified. The decision was taken to carry out an environmental impact study after a very extensive ore body had been discovered. Very positive statements were coming from the federal government and, as is appropriate, the decision was taken for an environmental assessment to be carried out. I might say that that assessment is carried out on criteria jointly agreed to by the Northern Territory and Commonwealth governments, in order to avoid the potential for duplication through the requirements of both administrations. I might say also that, to assist that process in the future, we are on the verge of signinq an agreement which will formalise the procedures for the conduct of those joint environmental impact studies. Draft documents have been agreed upon at officer level and are now before myself -and Senator Richardson for consideration in the context of an agreement to formalise what has been an ongoing practice.

That aside, a study was carried out in respect of Coronation Hill and, after some extensive production, a draft environmental impact statement was produced in December 1988, with a glowing picture of Coronation Hill on the front of the booklet. That was then assessed. Public comment was called for and the Northern Territory Conservation Commission was among those commenting on the draft. The draft EIS was reviewed as a consequence of that public input and a final environmental impact statement was produced in July 1989, and submitted to the federal minister for consideration. In accordance with the required process, the federal minister had his experts peruse that document and make recommendations to him. On 19 September 1989, he made a decision based on that advice. His decision is worthy of some comment, because that is what we are debating today. He decided not to decide, and he has managed to sell that to the federal Cabinet.

Understand this, Mr Speaker. This document has the support of the experts. It resolves all the environmental questions associated with Coronation Hill, and it addresses the cultural questions as well. The experts dealt with those issues and, on the basis of their considerations, they said: 'Go ahead'. On the basis of that report, there is no environmental reason why the Coronation Hill project should not proceed.

I am happy to table this letter, including the rude comments Senator Richardson makes about the Northern Territory. He simply cannot resist the temptation to make such comments.

Mr Leo: Rude, but accurate.

Mr HATTON: Absolutely inaccurate, I must say.

Mr Manzie: His colleague does not agree with you.

Mr HATTON: That is exactly right, as the Attorney-General says. The letter says: 'If the Coronation Hill project was a one-off development, I would not recommend against it as a result of the assessment report'. That is the essence of this. Suddenly, after 5 or 6 years, after the production of a detailed draft environmental impact statement, after public comment on that statement and the production of a final environmental impact statement, the federal Minister for the Environment suddenly says that he would not recommend against it if it were only a one-off development. He had never mentioned that before but suddenly it had become the critical issue. He went on to say:

However, I am firmly of the view that Coronation Hill cannot be considered in isolation from the other mining and prospecting

7541

DEBATES - Thursday I? October 1989

proposals which are likely to arise in the Conservation Zone. We must look at the potential for the cumulative environmental impacts within a clearly defined boundary. .Such an examination should take place before the approval of anyone project, including Coronation Hill.

While I believe it might possible to prevent potential damage at Coronati on Hi 11. wi th every other approva 1 for mini ng the poss i bil i ty to prevent that damage diminishes. That is why I believe Coronation Hill should not be considered in isolation. and certainly it should not be considered until assessments have been made at El Sherana or any other proposed mine in the immediate vicinity of the South Alligator River. .

Mr Speaker, I would like to make 2 points about that. Firstly. if that was so important. why were the joint venturers not told about it in advance? Why wasn't it made one of the criteria for consideration in the environmental impact aSsessment process?

iMr Leo: What about Mt Todd?

Mr HATTON: I will deal with Mt Todd shortly. I have every intention of dealing with it and exposing the nonsense which members opposite are carrying on within relation to it.

The fact is that Senator Richardson has been trying to stop any mining in this area. He does not care what excuse he uses; he just wants to stop the mlnlng. He is not interested in deferring a decision; he wants to stop it. He could not win that point because his arguments were so fallacious, so he pulled the card out of his other sleeve. He said: 'Hey fellows, we will need the preferences of the pro-environment lobby and the green candidates in the next election'.

Mr Collins: Who says they are the only pro-environment people?

Mr HATTON: The so-called green candidates claim to represent the pro-environment lobby.

Having pulled that card out of his sleeve, Senator Richardson talked Cabinet into making a non-decision. Now, we are told that the Aboriginal cultural issues have to be resolved. That is a great excuse to avoid making a decision until after the next election. It is interestinq that at least 12 months will elapse before a decision is made. As everyone knows, there has to be a federal election within I? months. That is why this delay is occurring. That is hypocritical and deserves to be condemned on 2 grounds. Firstly, the decision was made against technical and professional advice and, secondly, ·if the government had genuine concerns - which I do not believe - it failed to advise the companies of those concerns. If it had been serious, another option was open to the federal government. It could have said that any future development would have to take into account the cumulative impact of mining at Coronation Hill~ That would have dealt quite adequately with Senator Richardson's environmental concerns.

1, would like to turn to the other nonsense argument put forward by the opposition. whi'ch is that the Northern Territory government has somehow emulated the Commonwealth government's decision to change its mind in midstream. The project at Mt Todd is a joint venture between Zapopan, a local company, and Billiton, which is owned by Royal Dutch Shell, one of the world's

7542


largest companies. They have been involved in carryin9 out environmental assessment. One would assume that, as a natural precaution, a ma!or international company would inform itself about local laws and environmental assessment procedures. I have no doubt that Billiton and Shell have done that.

For the benefit of members opposite, and I hope the member for Ilanguri will listen to this because it might save him from emharrassment, this government has had environmental assessment legislation in place since 1984. In fact, a guide to the environmental assessment procedures in the Northern Territory has been available since June 1984. The member for Koolpinyah might be aware of that because she happened to be the mirister at the time. Those procedures are still applied today. Clearly, what we have been doing is totally consistent with our Environmental Assessment Art and procedures. The decisions which are being taken are totally consistent with those. There has been no change of direction' at all.

The procedures are roughly as folloWS. When a developer has a proposal, ,he simply advises the Conservation Commission of that. The Minister for Conservation - and it is always the minister, not officers of the Department of Mines and Energy or anybody else - has to make a decision as to whether an impact assessment is necessary on any project, public or private. If the minister decides that it is not necessary, matters, can proceed normally. If the decision is yes, the developer is required, to produce a prel imtnary environmental report. The purpose of that report is to dssist in a decision on whether or not an environmental impact statement is required for a particular proposal. It is not a sub,titute for a statement although, in a majority of cases, it is sufficient to complete the assessment process. The preliminary report is nota replacemel)tfor an EIS. It is a means to assess whether an EIS is required. "

In the case of Mt Todd, Billiton carried out,a provisional environmental report. That report was assessed by our people. The full provisional environmental report was submitted to me, together with an assessment and recommendations on that report. 'A number of deficiencies were identified, together with a number of areas in Which, more information was needed. They dealt with issues such as the breeding area of the Gouldian finch, some other rare and endangered fauna, and the need for more comprehensive information with respect to flora in the area. Also, the PER's assessment of hydrological impacts in the area was considered to be inadequate. The attention given to the impacts of the construction of 2 rural water storage dams and the residue dams was regarded as minimal and no information was provided with respect ,to potential downstream effects from erosion and drainage impacts. Design details were sketchy and more information was required in relation to further geotechnical investigations, particularly in relation, to seepage potential. A number of other technical considerations were not adequately addressed in the provisional environmental report.

If I am to carry out my job responsibly, I must ensure that those environmental issues are properlY addressed to ensure that, when the mine proceeds, it does so in an environmentally responsible manner. The Conservation Commission, in accordance with its charter, will work to ensure that developments are carried out in an environmentally responsible manner. The guidelines do not exist to block development. They exist to ~nsure that development occurs in an environmentally respon~ible manner. That is why an environmental impact statement is required. The answers have not been provided in the provisional environmental report.

7543


Tn dealing with another furphy, I must also say that the environmental assessment is in no way delaying the construction and development of that mine. The pre-feasibility technical studies of' that mine have not been completed. They have not resolved the technical methods of economically extracting the mineral in the context of today's gold prices and the cost of production related to the nature of the ore body and the hard rock in which it is embedded. Research is c6ntinuing and it is anticipated that the technical pre-feasibil ity studies wi 11 be completed by the end of this year and detailed technical feasibility studies will be completed by the middle of next year. It is equally anticipated, now that we' have reached an agreement on the EIS criteria and guidelines and now that research is under way, that the environmental impact statement will probably be completed in advance of the completion of the technical feasibility studies.

The good thing about this approach is that the technical and environmental studies are evolving together rather than trying to sort out the technical problems and then trying to overcome the ecological, biological and environmental issues after the event. Environmental factors are being taken into account within the development of construction proposals. Just as such factors as the slope of the land, the depth of the soils, the hardness of the materials and a range of other engineering and geological considerations are taken into account, so the biological environmental considerations will be taken into account in developing the proJect. The result will be an environmentally responsible development. That is where the members opposite go wrong. They do not know the environmental assessment procedures which apply in the Northern Territory. They are simply trying to deflect attention from the rea 1 i t,Y of the federal government's hypocri sy.

Mr Smith: Why did the previous Minister for Conservation not tell the partners •..

Mr HATTON: Mr Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has walked into the House and made a throwaway remark. If he had stayed in the House, he would have heard the reason. The previous minister had not rec~ived and considered the provisional envirpnmental report, as the minister is required to do to in order to make the d~cision under the environmental assessment guidelines. I will again remind the Leader of the Opposition that the guidelines for assessment and the procedures are set out to enable that to occur. There is no inconsistency in our approach and it will not delay the development of the mine. The only thing that will delay the development of the mine is if the economic and environmental requirements cannot be met. Those matters must be addressed and dealt with.

I believe that, if man is capable of putting a space ship on the moon, man is capable of developing technology to avoid unnecessary and dangerous environmental impacts. Let us work at that approach because that is what we are on about. It can work and I believe it will work, Mr Speaker. The opposition's approach today is no more than a charade to deflect blame. The reality is that the federal government has dodged the decision again. Senator Richardson has found another ploy to try to block any mining in a critically important area for the Northern Territory and for Australia. The federal government has found another device to avoid making a decision in an attempt to avoid upsetting the pro-development forces whilst keeping the green lobby in the corner. That is its game. It wants to hold the middle ground for at least 12 months so that it can get the federal election out of the way without a dangerous storm which it might have to answer for at the polls.

7544


Mr FLOREANI (Flynn): Mr Speaker, I do not intend to rehash many of the matters discussed by other speakers in this debate. However, I appreciate the opportunity to express my disappointment with the attitude of the federal government. I think that, if I were privately to ask every member of the Assembly which way they would like to vote, probably we would be pleasantly surprised in that most members would vote, I believe, for the motion moved by the Minister for Mines and Energy. In a nutshell, the federal government's decision is purely political and we all know that it is simply an attempt to attract the greenie vote.

There are a couple of points which particularly concern me. I would like to fire a bit of a rocket at the members of the Labor opposition in this House in relation to their attitude to our rights as Territorians. We have an elected Assembly but anything we say does not appear to matter in the federal scene. We have a right to enjoy the economic benefits which might come from Coronation Hill and that right has been disregarded. I am sure that, if any other ltate had a similar situation, things might have happened quite differently. However, what really hurts me is the fact, referred to in the minister's statement, that the Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service is gearing up to administer the area which formerly comprised the Conservation Zone. I find that despicable.

As you know, Mr Speaker, I come from Alice Springs. All I really know about Coronation Hill has come from the information I receive through the media. I acknowledge the minister's concerns about the role which television plays. It was very interesting to discover that Coronation Hill is nowhere near the Kakadu wetlands, that it is not really a sacred Aboriginal place to many of the local people, and that it was previously part of a cattle station and the site of mining activity, including substantial uranium mini~g in the 1950s and 1960s. I believe that the media should convey that information much more strongly and I commiserate with the Territory government in its attempts to get some balance into coverage of the subject.

Personally, I am quite concerned about environmental aspects but no one see~s to have paid much attention to the fact that there has been a scientific environmental assessment. I have been to Kakadu and I have been shown through the Ranger Uranium Mine. I was most impressed. I think anyone would be impressed with what has occurred there in relation to environmental matters. It would be reasonable to expect that the Northern Territory government would insist on the same stringent regulations for any further mines. I do not see that as a problem. I feel satisfied in my own mind that, environmentally, everything would be protected as much as it can be protected in relation to mining.

The Aboriginal question was rather interesting. I listened to the member for Arnhem and, at the same time, read the statement by the minister. One point that came to mind was that, among any group of people, I do not think you can get 100% agreement. The fact is that Mr Justice Kearney has said that there is no strong traditional attachment to that area by the Aboriginals. Some of the petitions that have been received by the government from the Jawoyn men are also very relevant. I feel quite satisfied that the Aboriginal aspect has been well catered for and well respected.

The final point that I would like to make concerns our local ALP members. I really think that they should hang their heads in shame. Senator Collins is the only one who really cares about the Territory in relation to this issue. He has said that the federal government's decision was taken for purely political reasons and is a 'disaster for the Territory', that Territorians

7545


'have been set aside' and that the Territory is the 'big loser'. Those are strong words. I would really like to pose a few questions to our local ALP chaps. Are you really Territorians?

Mr Bell: Several of us have had a family here for 20 000 years.

Mr FLOREANI: I would urge you to start acting like Territorians.

Mr Ede: How long has your family been here?

Mr FLOREANI: Longer than yours, Brian.

Mr Bell: You should apologise to the members for Arnhem and Arafura.

Mr FLOREANI: I would urge all you •..

Mr Smith: You are an absolute disgrace. Isn't 20 000 years good enough for you?

~r FLOREANI: I would urge the Leader of the OppoSition to act like a Territorian, not like an ALP politician.

Mr Smith: What an absolutely disgraceful performance!

Mr FLOREANI: . I suggest that he support the minister's statement.

Mr SETTER (Jingjli): Mr Speaker, there is no doubt that, if ever there was apolitical football, this so-called Kakadu is it. Stages 1, 2 and 3 contain a combined area of 17 552 km 2 • I have been very interested to listen to the debate here this afternoon. In fact, I was absolutely fascinated by the little dispute between the coalition parties on the opposition benches. Eventually, of course, they fell out. .

The member for Flynn intrigued me when he said that, because he lives in Alice Springs and knows only what he sees on the television, he was amazed to find that there had been previous mining i~ Kakadu. Let me give the honourable member a few facts about the extent of the mininq that has been undertaken in that region. I am talking about the South Alligator valley in the Stage 3 area of Kakadu. I will quote from the draft environmental impact statement for Coronation Hill, dated December 1988:

History of mining in the area: There. is a long record of mining and mineral exploration in the South Alligator River valley. Past mining activity in the valley has resulted in 7 open cuts, in excess of 2600 drill holes, approximately 5000 m of underground working, numerous adits and over 300 km of road. The land at Coronation Hill, originally known as Callahan's Prospect, has been continuously covered by a mineral lease and, indeed, mined since 1947.

That is the history of Coronation Hill and the South Alligator River area. was greatly intrigued by the admission of the Leader of the Opposition who

said, in effect: 'No one denies that the deferment is for political reasons'. He admitted openly that this decision by the federal Labor government has been made for political reasons. r think that is appalling, particularly given the the shocking economic state this country is in at the moment. The balance of payments figures are going through the roof and we desperately need export

. income but the' federal government is making decisions that will retard

. Australia's economic development on the basis of perceived political advantage. It is absolutely appalling and outrageous.

7546


It is instructive to look at what the Leader of the Opposition has said on this issue. Let me quote a couple of snippets. On 25 March 1988, he was quoted in the NT News: '"Mining at Coronation Hill will definitely proceed", said ~lr Terry Smith, NT Opposition Leader, today. Mr Smith said from Sydney he had been assured in his talks with the federal Environment Minister, Senator Graham Richardson, mining would proceed'. He went on to say, on 28 March 1988 on Radio 8DN in Darwin: 'It is well known that the federal government supports, in principle, mining at Coronation Hill'. What did he say today? Very 1 itt 1 e, and certa i n ly nothi ng of substance. He is ri di ng the tiger because we know and he knows that he has to appease his left-wing dominated party in the Northern Territory. He has to appease those left-wingers and he does not have the gumption that Senator Bob Collins has, who was prepared to fight for the Territory on this issue and lay his neck on the chopping block. Where has the Leader of the Opposition been? What has he been saying? He has been crawling under the tahle with embarrassment. He has said nothing publicly about this issue in the last several weeks.

Let us have a look at what was written by Oscar Tamsen in the NT News on 10 November 1986, in an article on the Prime Minister's visit to Kakadu. The headline was: 'Hopefully More Will See Through Hawke'. The first paragraph said: 'Robert James Lee Hawke left Kakadu on Saturday happy. He had shown the flag to the Australian conservation lobby that Bob is still their man'. Good old Bob, he is still their man. We know that he spent a couple of hours on the telephone to Phillip Toyne, the executive officer of the Australian Conservation Foundation. He recently had a meeting with Mr Garrett and Mr Toyne. I hear that these days he is a great fan of Midnight Oil. That is what it is all about. You can imagine the deals that have been done behind closed doors, Mr Speaker.

As previous speakers have said, this is all about the greenie vote. They are desperate to see Coronation Hill go ahead because they need the income for this country. They know that, but they are not game to make the hard decision. They want to put it off for another 12 months, to get the election ou~of the way and keep the greenie vote happy.

Can you imagine what would have happened if the federal government had decided last week to allow mining? Coronation Hill would be crawling with greenies with a great media contingent in train. Every night, in their comfortable lounge rooms in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Hobart, Adelaide and Perth, Mr and Mrs Middle Australia would be feeling all warm inside as they watched all those greenies fighting with the Northern Territory Police Force and perhaps even the military. We saw a precedent the other day - something that has not happened in this country since Chifley, another Labor Prime Minister, was in power. When Chifley was having trouble with the wharfies, he put the military on to the wharves. In 1989, another Labor Prime Minister has called in the forces. It is a disgrace. I am quite confident that, if any problems arise in Kakadu National Park or at Coronation Hill at some time in the future, the Northern Territory Police Force will not need to call on the army. I am quite sure that they will be able to handle any situation that arises.

Let us have a look at the NT News of 18 September 1989. In an article headed, 'Mining Facts for Greenies' , Frank Alcorta said:

Never in the history of Australia has there been such a concentrated attack on a single industry as there is on miners at present. They have been made the target of conservationists and other lobby groups. In this age of sudden environmental consciousness, miners have become

7547


the people that every trendy in Toorak and Balmain loves to hate. The industry is reeling from the double blow of poor public perception and political action ...

',' That is where this country has been led by a federal Labor government, which has spent 6 years scratching the backs of the environmentalists and appeasing the greenies.

We are told that there is a pristine area out at Kakadu. We all know that, in Kakadu Stage 3, there is no such pristine area. Somebody has drawn a line on a map and, on the other side of that line, about 30 km away from Coronation Hill and across the Mary River, there is a pastoral lease. In fact, it was Mt Bundy Station and it has just been sold to the federal government to be used as a firing range. Military exercises will be conducted there. We know that the 2nd Cavalry Regiment is to be relocated to Darwin in about 18 months or 2 years time. Do you know what they use, Mr Speaker? They use tracked vehicles. These will be running all over this pristine wilderness. It is the same sort of country on that side of the Mary River as it is on this side. On the eastern side, in Kakadu Stage 3, it is pristine and must be preserved. We must have it crawling with scientists and environmentalists and people locating the parrots referred to by the Minister for Primary Industry and Fisheries. On the other side of the line, I am sure that there are just as many pairs of hooded parrots and perhaps even Gouldian finches. Tracked vehicles will be roaring allover it. They will be firing weapons there and perhaps the RAAF will even drop bombs. This is being done with the full permission and acceptance of the same federal government.- What hypocrisy, Mr Speaker!

The situation was well summed up in a front page article in The Australian last Saturday. The Minister for Mines and Energy quoted from it but I think that it is worth quoting again because it is very relevant. It said:

The Top End of the Northern Territory that envelops Coronation Hill ..• has all the beauty of a dirty old sock. It's rough and hot. Some might call it downright ugly. It is dry, dusty, sparsely-vegetated, clapped-out feral buffalo country, about as far removed from the scenic wetlands, the wading birds and the balmy Top End ambience of a must-be-preserved national treasure as you can get.

That sums it up beautifully, Mr Speaker. That is exactly what it is. It is nothing like the pristine wetlands which we all admire and which we all agree must be preserved and protected. We have had arguments about Stage 3 before and now we are going through the same exercise again.

If the member for Flynn wants to see what Coronation Hill is like, he need only look at the front cover of the environmental impact statement. It is just bush, the same sort of bush we see between here and Batchelor or between here and Finniss River. If he looks at the cover of the statement, he will see a picture of Coronation Hill. Is there anything pristine about it? There are no wetlands, no beautiful country, no escarpment. That is it, just like the country we find between here and Batchelor or Adelaide River. The Top End is covered with the same sort of open forest country. It is open sandstone country covered by woolly butt and stringy-bark. As it says on the map which the minister tabled earlier, it is sandy, gravelly country covered by woolly butt and stringy-bark.

7548


As the member for Barkly pointed out, the history of this matter goes back to the Whitlam era, the Fox Report and the Fraser era. ,Those people are to blame for the current situation. There is no doubt about that. Without the Fox Report, without Whitlam and without Fraser, most of the mines in the area of would be operational and, no doubt, Australia would not have its horrendous balance of payments problems. The names roll off the lips: Ranger, Jabiluka, Nabarlek, Koongarra and so on. Now, 2 new names are on everybody's lips: Coronation Hill and El Sherana.

The whole thing is a set-up of the first order. People sitting in their comfortable lounges see images of beautiful wetlands and, of course. they become upset when they think that mining is to occur in such places. In that context. there is some relevance in comments made jointly by the former federal Minister for Resources and ~nergy. Senator Gareth Evans and the former Minister for Arts. Heritage and the Environment. Hon Barry Cohen. in relation to the Conservation Zone that was declared in June 1987. I will read some excerpts from the ministers' joint statement of 16 December 1986. They highlighted the federal government's decision to assess the resource potential of the Conservation Zone and to allow the exclusion of mining projects of major economic significance from Kakadu National Park Stage 3. I might say that the zone was to exist for 5 years while research was undertaken. In fact. it lasted about 2 years. The recent decision incorporated 98% of it in the park and the remaining 2% is nothing more than a narrow strip. The ministers' joint statement said:

In addition to its high conservation value. the Gimbat and Goodparla area contain~ one of the most highly prospective mineral provinces in the world. The government believes that it is in the national interest that these resources should be properly identified. The government has therefore decided that approximately 35% of the Gimbat and Goodparla pastoral leases will remain outside the park at this stage. This area will be declared a Conservation Zone under the National Parks and Wildlife Conservation Act. A 5-year exploration program will be conducted to help determine. by the end of that period. which area should be put into the park. The government's intention is that, ultimately, as much of the Conservation Zone as possible will be incorporate9 in the park and that only mining projects of major economic significance, not merely economic viability, will be excluded from the park.

Mr Speaker, once again the federal government has broken its word. It cannot be trusted.

Mrs PADGHAM-PURICH (Koolpinyah): Mr Speaker, for me to get up and speak in this debate and for every other member to get up and speak in this debate is a gross waste of time because it should be self-evident to anybody with half a brain, half an ear and half an eye, that mining at Coronation Hill does not present any environmental hazard.

Looking around at members in this Chamber, I would say that I am probably as green, if not greener, than any of them. However, I know of the safeguards which have been put in place for the mining of uranium and other minerals in the Northern Territory to date and I know of the safeguards which would be put in place for mining at Coronation Hill. I know enough to realise that those safeguards would ensure that no environmental hazard would exist. The fact that Mr Hawke and Senator Richardson have put the kybosh on mining at Coronation Hill leads me to believe that they have an extremely cynical view of the economic development of Australia and, in fact, our very survival.

7549


Australia is going down the gurgler very fast and, as an Australian, I regret that. I cannot save Australia alone, Mr Speaker, and neither can you. The only people who can save Australia on their own, through sensible government, are the people in Canberra. They do not seem to be doing a very good job. With a bit of luck from the Almighty and perhaps the people of Australia, they might not be in office after the next election. We can only hope that, if the coalition takes office, its members have the guts to go ahead with activities like mining in the Northern Territory and to give us control of the Territory. Although we have been given self-government under federal law, what the federal government has given with one hand it has taken away with the other. '

I believe that the safeguards which would be put in place in relation to mining at Coronation Hill would make that activity much safer than it was when that same place was mined in the early 1950s and late 1960s. One has only to walk around the Coronation Hill are~ today to see that, even with the relatively slack attitude to environmental concerns that existed in those days, areas which were mined have recovered remarkably, to such an extent that the environment has been completely restored by the balance of nature.

I heartily agree with the government on this matter. I have to-casiigate the media for presenting the Coronation Hill area as really interesting Kakadu country full of meandering billabongs and teeming with wildlife and myriad bird life. It is nothing like that and to say otherwise testifies to one's ignorance. The country around Coronation Hill is .about as interesting as the country next to our hay paddock. That is natural bush, of course, but it is roughly the same sort of bush one sees allover the Top End. The vegetation consists of woolly butts, stringy-barks, sand palms, zamia palms, milkwoods, edible plants which Aborigines use as food ~ources and a couple ~f other important varieties. I am not saying that one should not observe and appreciate our natural bush. I certainly do, but we have to be sensible about it. The bush around Coronation Hill is the same sort of bush that we see for thousands of square miles across the Top End.

While saying that I have certain green affiliations, I believe that they are sensible green affiliations. I am not a closet greenie and I am not a talking greenie. I have been living environmentally for about 30 years. I am living it while other people are talking about it. I may appear a bit old-fashioned in some things but I have been living conservation. I do not say that I am Robinson Crusoe. Other people are doing it as well. In living conservation and making conservation values paramount in one's life, one does not necessarily refuse to countenance development. With proper thought, development can go ahead with consideration for the environment. It has gone ahead in that way in the past and it can go ahead in the future at Coronation Hill.

No honourable member who has spoken so far has referred to the black politics which have come into this matter and achieved prominence. Some people, and they probably include the Chairman of the Northern Land Council, together with people in senior management positions in the Northern Land Council, can see their power base gradually declining in various parts of the Northern Territory as Aborigines demand a greater say in how they govern themselves. In order to bolster its power base, the Northern Land Council has had to hit upon an issue which will allow it to portray itself as having some strength. .

Mr Speaker, I have not been here for the whole of this debate and I do not know if other honourable members before me have mentioned the person I am

7550


about to refer to. I would give this person a title which, I believe, originated in Japan, and is used to honour ~enior citizens. It has been used in Victoria. The title used in honouring senior citizens is to call them 'living treasures'. I am talking about the type of people who are still very active and concerned about their field of interest. They are prepared to impart to other people the knowledge that they have gained over a lifetime of interest in their fields, especially to younger people. In the Northern Territory, we have 2 'such living treasures in Joe Fisher and his brother.

I believe somebody like Joe Fisher is worth listening to. He is the person par excellence who can speak with authority on mining and the effects of mining on the Coronation Hill area because of his active involvement at El Sherana in the late 1950s and early 1960s. He has a full appreciation of mining. He is an old-timer who has been here for years. He knows the Northern Territory and has a full appreciation of the environment. When he came here 'environment' was a word that had not been invented. They called it the bush in those days. He has a full appreciation of the Aboriginal values. When he was working at El Sherana, he was working with the Aboriginal~ and with the environment. It was a happy mixing of the 3 interests. In all the years that we have been here, we have not heard of any ill-effects from mining at El Sherana because it was done with consideration for Aboriginal interests and the environment. If it could go ahead in those times, it can certainly go ahead now.

It seems to me that the people who compfise the federal Labor government speak with forked tongues. On the one hand, they say they are keen to see Australia return to its standing as a world power of influence in financial and development circles. At the same time, they knock a very important mining venture like this on the head. It seems that they are clutching at straws. We all know that they have knocked the development of Coronation Hill on the head. They have done it to appease the green lobby. Perhaps they may get a few votes from the green lobby down south. However, they have Buckley's chance of getting any votes in support of that decision in the Northern Territory.

We view things more sensibly in the Northern Territory. Whilst we are appreciative of conservation, values, when it comes to employment or unemployment, the sensible person wants a job. If Coronation Hill meant jobs, a truck driver or artisan would want it to go ahead. He wants to support himself and his family. Believe it or not, despite the munificence of our social welfare handouts, there are still people who want to work for a living. They usually want to support their families. They want to work for a living and they do not want to take handouts.

The federal Labor government has certainly taken a very blinkered view of mining in the Northern Territory. I will not labour the point because it has been talked ~bout for the 11 years that r have been in parliament. The fact that I sleep with the Manager of Pancontinental Mining is always raised by certain people in the Labor Party. I have not commented on whom they sleep with. They seem to think it is very pertinent that my husband is the Manager of Pancontinental Mining in the Darwin area. While we are talking about mining not going ahead at Coronation Hill, it is also worth mentioning briefly that other mining has received the chop from this federal Labor government. It has prevented Pancontinental's Jabiluka mine from proceeding at Ja Ja as well as the Denison mine at Koongarra.

It seems that common sense was not involved in the decision to delay mining for a year. As any sensible person knows, the decision does not really

7551


mean a year. If the federal Labor government gets in again, God forbid, it will mean for all time. We are sitting on a veritable fortune in the Northern Territory and, while Australia's interests go down the drain, we are not able to do a thing with it. Our balance of payments figures get worse and worse and we will eventually end up in a situation more desperate than that of a banana republic.

Members of the Labor Party have spoken about some Jawoyn people who said that they did not want mining to go ahead. They have not talked about the Jawoyn people who want mining to go ahead. Dare I mention the word 'paternalism' and ask whether it comes into this? I think it does, and I have spoken about the arrogance of the Chairman of the Northern Land Council on previous occasions.

Mr Speaker, as an independent member, I consider each Question as it is brought forward to this Assembly for debate. Whilst I have declared a vested interest in this matter by saying that I have affiliations with Pancontinental Mining in the Northern Territory, that does not influence my decision to vote with the government in favour of the motion of the Minister for Mines and Energy.

Mr COLLINS (Sadadeen): Mr Speaker, today members of the opposition, none of whom are presently in the Chamber, have obviously been extremely embarrassed. I have listened to their contributions to the debate, in which they hardly even mentioned Coronation Hill. They drew a red herring across the track in an effort to avoid their embarrassment which obviously is very acute, as it should be. They do not have the stomach to stand up for the Territory. The member for Flynn was dead right. We had the nonsense from the Leader of the Opposition because 2 of his members happen to be of Aboriginal descent and their ancestors may have come here 20 000 years ago. That is a bit of a change from the 40 000 that is usually quoted. He was incensed that anyone would dare question that they are Territorians. In the context of this debate, a Territorian is someone who cares about the Territory and who wants to see Territory matters decided by elected Territorians, not by that mob in Canberra.

This is one more example of Canberra attacking our self-government. We have only partial self-government. We are not totally self-governing by a long shot. It is good to see that members are picking up the idea that we have only partial self-government. In fact, the federal act under which we operate should be renamed the Northern Territory partial self-government act. This is just another attack by Canberra .on our self-government. The feder~l government should be ashamed of that and it is something which should annoy every Territorian. Those people are sitting in Canberra and, for their own political ends, deciding the fate of the Territory. It stinks.

I would like to bring to the attention of this House the sayings of Phillip Toyne of the Australian Conservation Foundation, whom the member for Arnhem said he was pleased to bring into the whole affair. I have had the gravest suspicion about the anti-Australian motives of one Phillip Toyne. I first came across that gentleman quite a few years ago, in the Alice Springs area, working as a lawyer for the Central Land Council and Aboriginal organisations. I can tell you, Mr Speaker, that I have no love for the gentleman because he took one very fine Aboriginal person whom I knew long before coming to the Territory and turned him into a boozer and a womaniser. That broke up the family, and it is a very sad state of affairs. I will never forgive one Phillip Toyne, who became the close confidant and mentor of this fine Aboriginal gentleman, who is now only a shadow of the fellow he was when

7552


I knew him before he and I came to the Territory. I believe our Mr Toyne has his own agenda for Australia.

The thing I want to put on the record in this House, which I want other honourable members to take on board and spread around - because it is true - is that, during the last few months, in The Australian and in other media, Mr Toyne has said that Australia, economically, has to contract. He has said that we cannot expand; we have to contract, diminish, and lower our standard of living, or we cannot preserve the environment. I would suggest that he and all of us should read closely what John Hyde had to say in The Australian yesterday, as quoted by the member for Araluen. He said that this 'win' for the greenies, on Coronation Hill and the closing of the Kakadu area to mining activity, is not a win for the environment. The guts of the matter is that, when we are wealthy, we can afford to protect the environment. I have thought all along that Mr Toyne should take that on board although I know that he has no intention of doing so. Certainly, Australians should· take it on board. When they do so, he will be inconsequential.

If Mr Toyne wants us to become poorer and poorer, and thinks that the environment will be protected in that manner, I say no. It is through wealth that we will be able to afford to look after the environment. I fully support the policy of the federal coalition and the statements which it has made in recent days concerning the environment. Members of the federal opposition have been a little tentative. They have been rather afraid to put their heads above the battlements and say very loudly that we are in such a poor economic state that we have to build up our economy before we can really afford the proper conservation measures that we have to adopt. I am not ashamed of that viewpoint and neither should they be. It needs to be said very loudly. Make the wealth with which to protect the environment. The 2 are not opposed; they go hand-in-hand. They must go hand-in-hand. It is the only way we can afford that luxury, and it really is a luxury to be able to look after our envi ronment.

Of course, as I have said many times, Mr Speaker, if you look at the Ranger Uranium Mine, it is clear that we can control the conditions and provide the safeguards. Various groups are monitoring the situation out there. As I have often said, it is a case of overkill. However, we can do the job properly and safely, and we should stand tall and proud about that.

The Phillip Toynes of this world need to be exposed for what they are. He is a very smart and shrewd fellow, but he will be in there causing trouble with his own hidden agenda. Mr Speaker, I will let you work out what his hidden agenda may be. He will not be there in the interests of conservation. He is not interested in conservation one little bit.

Mr Ede: He is not a filthy socialist, is he?

Mr Coulter: He is. A card-carrying member.

Mr COLLINS: 14ell, he certainly has not caught the 'Gorby' bit, which is a pity. It would be better if he did catch it.

Mr Firmin: You learn something every day.

Mr Ede: I do.

Mr COLLINS: Mr Speaker, what do we do about this matter? We are being treated extremely shabbily. Only Senator Bob Collins has had the courage to

7553


get up and really tell a few home truths about the matter. He and I do not often agree, but I am more than happy to put on record that I am proud that he is stRnding up for the Territory and being a real Territorian, not like the mob over here today, who have been wishy-washy and dragged red herrings across the trail, and been embarrassed about the whole thing. They will not say where they stand on the matter. They have shown no courage whatsoever and they stand condemned. They really do.

What should we do, Mr Speaker? Fi~st of all, we should get the true Kakadu situation shown on television and covered by the media down south so that thrre is some balance. We need to show people what Kakadu is really like. There are beaut spots, but much of the country is extremely boring and a lo~ of the stuff which is being talked about in terms of world heritage status is,. like country which can be found over a wide area from Western Australia, through the Territory, Queensland and do~m into New South Wales. It debases the currency of world heritage listing.

Secondly, I believe we have to encourage the tourists to come up, particularly those who will drive up and bring their caravans. It may be, as was said this morning, that we have been somewhat to blame. We have only shown people the really beaut bits of Kakadu. As I have said in this House before, plenty of people have come up expecting the whole national park to consist of wetlands, bird life and wonderful things only to find that they have to travel for mile after boring mile until they come across those heauty spots. I have a feeling that the more people we can get up here to see it as it is, the more people will form the same view as the writer of the front-page article about Coronation Hill in The Australian ~n Monday, who says that there are 50 places which are far more attractive than Kakadu. That is pretty close to the mark. \~hen those vi s itors return to thei r homes down south, Mr Speaker, they will tell the true story. I know that it happens now and that, when people like that are asked about Kakadu, they say how disappointed they were.

A young English couple stayed with me in Alice Springs for a few weeks. I suppose they could be called hackpacker types. They bought a car and drove up to the Top End. \<Ihen they came back they said: 'All the backpackf'rs are calling it Kakadon't. It is just too hard to get out there. It is too difficult. There are no facilities and so much of it is so boring that it is not worth the effort. "Go down to Litchfield", was the saying'.

Mr Ede: Always knocking the Territory!

Mr COLLINS: Well, let us tell the truth about it. It is far better for us to tell the people down south exactly what it is like than it is to deceive them and have them go away disappointed. It is better tc tell the truth so that people's expectations are not built up too much and so that they do not tell other people that it is not worth visiting.

~r Ede: Well, blame the Tourist Commission.

Mr Vale: Oh, thank you!

Mr COLLINS: So, what can we do about it? We can try to get more and more tourists here to see it for themselves and, secondly, I would say to the minister that I think it \'J()uld be well worth spending some money on a campaign to show it as it is, to try and get the message across.

7554


The third and most important thing, if we are to have anything left of our self-government, is that we have t~work together to get rid of the Hawke government. How can we do that? I suppose we can only do our little bit in our small corner, and our small corner happens to be the Northern Territory. We have only 2 Senate seats and 1 seat in the House of Representatives. We must do our bit. I am not talking to the Labor opposition but to members pf the government, the Territory Nationals and to my independent colleague al,l of whom, I trust, have an antisocialist outlook. A lot of fences need to be mended and attitudes changed and we need to see the exercise of difficult qual ities 1 ike forgiveness and humil ity around· the traps, in order to get things back together. If we do not show a united front, the conservative side of politics in the Territory will find it very difficult to win seats.

That is where we should concentrate our efforts. We need a concentrated effort down south so that people living there know what Kakadu is really like and can see through the nonsense. We need to campaign to encourage tourists to come up and experience it for themselves so that the,}' will realise that what they have seen on TV is only part of the story and, unfortunately, a small part of the story as far as Kakadu is concerned. LE't us also remind them that they can vi sit L itchfi e 1 d. I have not been there myself, but I have' heard some very good reports and I must make the effort to visit it one day. Above all, we need to bury the disunity that has resulted from some very difficult occurrences in the past, and show a tinited front so that we can do our part to get rid of Hawke, Keating and co. If we do not have what it takes to do that, we wi 11 mi ss an opportunity to perform a servi ce wh i ch we, owe to the people of the Territory.

Often it is not easy to remember that we are nothing more than the servants of the people who put us here. We owe it to them and we owe it to the Territory to preserve our partial self-government and build it into full self-government and build that into statehood, so that we can stand tall as do people in every state in this nation. I hope that gives some food for thought to members of this Assembly who are of the conservative persuasion. I would not call myself a total conservative but, rather~' would prefer to describe myself as a very dry Liberal. In that context, I make a fourth point. If we are successful in doing our part to get the coalition into power in Canberra, we must not do what we did when we got Mr Fraser there. The, Liberals were back in ...

Mr Coulter: He was a very wet Liberal.

Mr COLLINS: A very wet Liberal.

Mr Ede: A wimpish Liberal tool

Mr COLLINS: Our fourth duty is to put some steel into the backbone of those people in Canberra, and a bit of common sense. It will not be a matter of thinking that everything is all right because the coalition is in power and then accepting it when it seizes every opportunity to get stuck into us.


Mr COLLINS: At least I am standing up for the Territory. There is not a single member of this ALP opposition who can stand tall and proud after today's effort. The opposition has tried merely t~deflect the whole issue.

Mr LEO (Nhulunbuy): Mr Speaker, I continue to be amazed at the degree of outrage which members of this House can generate about something which we are

7555


all involved in. That something is, of course, politics. We are all politicians and our business is politics.

In a previous speech in this House, on uranium mlnlng, I said that there is no point in trying to convince members of this House about these matters. The people we need to convince are the Australian public. We can stand here all day and lambast the federal government. I do not give a tinker's damn about the political flavour of that government. No matter what it is, it will react to political dictates. It does not matter who is in power, whether it be the Liberal Party, the Labor Party, the dry Libs or the wet Libs. Politicians, if they seek power, will always react to the political climate of the day. That is a simple fact of life! There is no question about it.

In what was probably his most pertinent comment on the Coronation Hill issue, Senator Collins said: 'If I cannot convince my lO-year-old son that Coronation Hill should be mined, what hope do I have of convincing the federal government?' The simple reality is that minds of the youth of Australia and a growing proportion of adult Australians are indelibly stamped with a concern for the environment. There is no escaping that and there is no point in the minister denying it. Until we, as proponents of rational mining, can change the Australian electorate's view, we will continue to make these inane, pointless and stupid speeches in this House. They serve no purpose. Their contents do not go beyond the walls of this House. We manage to convince each other of our various virtues but we convince nobody outside these walls. The reality is that we are all politicians. Indeed, the Territory government has demonstrated that it is in the business of politics by insisting that the Mt Todd joint venturers pursue an environmental impact statement. That is the reality of today's political climate and there is no point in denying it.

Of course, the federal government is reacting to political stimulation. That is why it is in power. If the Liberal Party were in power, it would react to political stimulation from the electorate. That is what gets governments electeq. If members of this House think that passing these motions will in any way change the political realities affecting matters such as mining at Coronation Hill, they are kidding themselves.

Mr Speaker, I will not support this motion. I support mining at Coronation Hill but I will not support this motion because, quite frankly, I find its contents offensive. I find its comments about Aboriginal people and culture offensive and I certainly will not support it. However, let nobody be in any doubt that I support mining at Coronation Hill. I believe that any environmental concerns have probably been answered by the EIS. I think that the very genuine Aboriginal fears can be addressed and accommodated in some way. I do not doubt that those things can happen and that, indeed, Coronation Hill will be mined. However, I will not support the motion.

The minister has missed the point completely. He believes that passing a motion in this House and indulging in some colourful phraseology will, in some way, solve th.e problems in relation to mining at Coronation Hill.

Mr COULTER (Mines and Energy): Mr Speaker, I will begin by addressing the matter of Aboriginal associations. I intend to quote from some documents here although I do not intend to table them because they are confidential.

The first concerns the so-called Kearney Line, and it is the document which Senator Collins used when he provided information to Cabinet. He said:

7556


The examination of the evidence in this claim - that is, the most authoritative evidence - is contained in the report of the Aboriginal Land Commissioner, Mr Justice Kearney, on the Jawoyn Katherine Area Land Claim Report No 27. The examination of the evidence of this claim was detailed and extensive between December 1982 and April 1987. Mr Justice Kearney considered 4500 pages of transcripted evidence, ?OO exhibits and 800 pages of legal submissions. Justice Kearney found, on the basis of this evidence, that the ,lawoyn claim to the upper South Alligator River Valley in Stage 3 Of Kakadu National Park could not be substantiated ~,ithin Aboriginal tradition. A line was drawn by the judge, the Kearney Line, which delineated the land to which the Jawoyn currently have spiritual affiliation.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition may care to look at this map, as he claims to be such an authority on Justice Kearney. He will see the line referred to.

Mr Ede: Are you denying that he said ...

Mr COULTER: I am referring to a map which was part of his report. After examining vast amounts of written evidence and 200 exhibits, Justice Kearney said that the Jawoyn have no claim to the land north of the line. Coronation Hill is well to the north of the Kearney Line. Senator Collins continued:

. This line excludes the Jawoyn from the entire South .Alligator River valley and the headwaters of the Katherine River. As a result of the evidence presented by the aawoyn themselves, llustice Kearney was compelled to find that the <lawoyn could not. establ ish current spiritual affiliation under the Aboriginal Land Rights Act 1976 to the land north of this line.

Senator Collins went on to say to members of Cabinet:

If the government proceeds to make a decision based, even in part, on Jawoyn ownership of the area, and the subsequent land claim hearing under Commonwealth law rejects the ,lawoyn claim, as it could well do, the government will be left looking extremely foolish.

Mr Speaker, I refer to another report, which relates to the Bula site. It says:

The concept of the· sickness country, defi ned in August 1987 by David Cooper, an officer of the Northern Territory Aboriginal Sacred Sites Protection Authority, and endorsed by the Joseph Report, is not sustained by a detailed examination of the past literature. A relevant land claim for discussion with people involved with the area for over 50 years, including Jawoyn custodians and tribal elders, supports the following contrary views.

The Bula cult was archaic when originally documented in the 1950s. Custodians then had only a fragmentary knowledge, with the last Bula ceremony being performed in the early 1940s. The Bula cult does not form the same integral part of the spiritual life of the present day Jawoyn community as when it had been practised. A limited number of discrete, usually relatively small, secret sacred sites are known. They have been well documented.

The most notable, of course, is at Sliesbeck and, as I have said to the member for MacDonnell many times before, I would die to protect that site.

7557

DERATES - Thursday 12 October 1989

Mr Bell: I was not going to say it and I am glad you did at last.

Mr COULTER: It is truly a site of significance, and it should be restored and protected under any circumstances. Let us get it right. I am not just the redneck gung ho cowboy from the north who wants to dig everything up. However, in referring to the site at Sliesbeck, we should note that it is some 40 km from Coronation Hill.

Mr Bell: Tell us about Mt Todd too, Barry.

Mr COULTER: Let us talk about Coronation Hill. I am happy to talk about Mt Todd on Tuesday. One thing at a time.

Mr Rell: Why? The principl~ is the same.

Mr COULTER: Mr Speaker, the report continues:

These sites are significant merely because of their association with previously practised cults. There are restrictions by Aboriginal tradi t,; on on behavi our and access to these sites. Coronati on Hi 11 is not one of these sites and considerabl~ doubt exists as to whether it has any special significance to the ,Jawoyn.

Mr Speaker, I tould quote from many other reports which contradict the Cooper Report and the Joseph Report. Another report says:

Thpre has not been any sustained affiliation with the South Alligator River area by .Jawoyn people through involvement with pastoral activity or by their presence in the Gimbat and Goodparla pastoral properties. The Jawoyn failed in their attempt to succeed to the deceased Wulwulam and 14at:a estates in the Jawoyn Katherine Land Claim. The ,lawoyn presently fail in their own right to meet the requirements to establish and exert territoriality over the upper South Alligator valley. Evidence from senior Aboriginal men does not sustain the Bulla tradition north of the upper South Alligator valley.

How much more evidence is needed, Mr Speaker? The Jawoyn have no claim to the area north of the Kearney Line.

Th~ member for Arnhem put down the Aboriginal people involved in the training program in:the Coronation Hill area. He said: 'What? Planting trees!' Mr Speaker, shame on him! Basic geology courses and instruction in diamond drill cutting techniques have taken place. I would love to go there with the honourable member and hear him say: 'You fellows are running around planting trees. Shame on you!' I would like to see what they would do to him. I suspect that he might find himself underneath the diamond saw being cut up with another core sample! Those people are particularly proud of the skills which they have learnt during the training program. I would like to see the member for Arnhern go down there and tell these gentlemen that what they are doing is planting trees and therefore women's work and not something they should be proud of. They are proud of it. They are working very well, learning new skills and developing programs to ensure their education and their future in the Northern Territory. I support them and cry shame on the member for Arnhem for the way in which he demeaned the work being carried on in that area.

7558


The Leader of the Opposition said that this government has no guidelines in relation to the Mt Todd proposal. On 27 September, RillitonAustralia Gold Pty Ltd put out a press release headed, 'Agreement reached on Mt Todd EIS Guidelines'. That is how much the Leader of the Opposition knows about Mt Todd, Coronation Hill or any other mine in the Northern Territory. He does not know what he is talking about and that is just one indication.

I agree with the member for Sadadeen in relation to the wonderful opportunities that the greenies have missed out on. The editorial of today's edition of The Australian is headed 'The Environment Monopoly'. It says:

The federal government's irresponsible and perverse decision to prevent mining in a tiny section of·Kakadu National Park will damage not only the economy but also the environment. As John Hyde pointed out in The Australian yesterday, the greens missed a fine opportunity at Kakadu to form a coalition with BHP in protecting and nourishing the environment.

The editorial concludes by saying that the government should be ashamed of the way it is dividing and polarising environm~ntalists. That is exactly what it is doing, and it stands condemned for it. The federal government should be ashamed of what it has done.

We all recall what the Leader of the Opposition said on 25 March 1988 after he went down to see Senator Richardson: 'Mining at Coronation Hill will definitely proceed. Mr Smith said from Sydney that he had been assured of this in talks with the federal Environment Minister, Senator Graham Richardson'. Today he made another telephone call to Mr Hand. He has been assured again that the amendments proposed to the Aboriginal Land Rights Act will not have any effect on Coronation Hill or Groote Eylandt. I wonder how long it will be before I have to put out another full-page advertisement proclaiming him a liar.

Mr Speaker, I did not start this campaign yesterday. I described Kakadu Stage 3 in a speech in this House on Tuesday 5 June 1984, and I would like to read one small section of that speech:

The majority of Stage 3, 72%, is represented by the Koolpinyah land form system which comprises undulating land with striped ridges and is typical of other areas - in fact, some 66 000 km2 of similar land forms can be seen elsewhere in the Pine Creek geosyncline. The only ~reas of ·scenic beauty in Stage 3 are UDP Falls and an area along Koolpin Creek.

Those are not my figures. They are figures from experts who have assessed the area. In 1928, Mr Williams described the terrain of the area as 'mostly bare sandstone with waterworn gorges. Impossible for horses'. Those old fellows could spot it as well. If they knew what was happening today, they would surely roll in their graves.

There are 2 places where you can obtain platinum today. One is South Africa, and nobody wants to deal with South Africa these days. The other is Russia, and not many people are enthused about dealing with Russia.

Mr Smith: You have been there.

Mr COULTER: I would go there again too. been here as a result of my going there.

7559

Indeed, the Russian minister has have no qualms about dealing with


Russia. There are a few people who would not approve of that. What is this material largely used for today? The answer is catalytic converters, not for blue cattle, the ones that produce blue vein cheese. It is a material that is used for pollution control in relation to carbon monoxide, one of the greatest contributors to the Greenhouse Effect.

The opposition's contributions to this debate were mere ravings. There was no commitment at all. We do not know where the Leader of the Opposition stands in relation to mining at Coronation Hill, even though he has never been there. He would not know where it is. We are told that the member for Nhulunbuy went there 19 years ago. The member for Arnhem will not tell us when he went there. For some reason, it is a secret. They do not know what they are. tal king about. They have never been out in the region. I bet the member for MacDonnell has never been to Coronation Hill. I doubt very much whether the member for Arafura has ever been there.

~'r Bell: 500 feet above it, Barry.

Mr COULTER: You have actually flown over it. I will go with you next time and show you where it is. With your navigational skills, it was probably Broken Hill in New South Wales.

Mr Speaker, I would bet my bottom dollar that the member for Stuart has never been out there.

Mr Ede: What are you worth?

Mr COULTER: When were you out there?

Mr Ede: In 1986.

Mr COULTER: I bet that he did not know where it was either, Mr Speaker. He was probably looking for blue cows.

Mr Ede: Pay up.

Mr COULTER: Mr Speaker, where do they stand? Where does the Leader of the Opposition stand on this issue? Where does the Deputy Leader of the Opposition stand on this issue? Where does the member for Arnhem stand on this issue? Where does the opposition spokesman on mines stand on this issue? Where does the member for Nhulunbuy stand on this issue? Where does the member for Wanguri stand on this issue? Where does the member for Arafura stand on this issue? We do not know!

One thing is for sure: the people in the Northern Territory know where I stand on this issue. I say that it should be mined under the very strict environmental conditions that have been set. It should be mined tomorrow. That is where I stand on the subject. It will be interesting to see how members opposite vote on this motion. I would like to remind honourable members of the motion on which they will be voting. I moved that this Assembly 'deplore the decision of the federal government to include 98% of the Conservation Zone within Kakadu National Park and to defer a decision on Coronation Hill and El Sherana mineral deposits for a further 12 months for political reasons' and 'express its concern at the denial of Northern Territory rights in the matter'. We know where the members opposite stand on this. They want the federal heritage legislation to be the overriding legislation.

7560



Mr COULTER: You will have the opportunity in a moment to vote on it.

Mr Ede: I know exactly how I will vote. I will not be on the same side of the room as you, boyo.

Mr COULTER: There is no way that the federal government should be involved in issues such as mining, states' rights and environmental issues. I do not know why it is involved. It has got itself onto the tar paper and blackened itself in the hearts and minds of all Australians and it will be seen for what it is - gutless.

The Assembly divided:

Ayes 17

Mr Coll ins Mr Coulter Mr Dondas Mr Finch Mr Firmin Mr Floreani Mr Harris Mr Hatton Mr McCarthy Mr Manzie Mrs Padgham-Purich Mr Palmer Mr Poole Mr Reed Mr Setter Mr Tuxworth Mr Vale

Motion agreed to.

Noes 7

Mr Bailey Mr Bell Mr Ede Mr Lanhupuy Mr Leo Mr Smith Mr Tipiloura

STATEMENT Airline Dispute Effect on Tourism Industry

Mr VALE (Tourism): Mr Speaker, I deeply regret that my first ministerial statement has to deal with the misfortunes of a great Territory industry that is conservatively estimated to be losing $800 000 per day. Due to the pilots' dispute, our tourism industry is now facing cumulative losses approaching $45m. That is nearly $45m worth of damage to Territory jobs, people's lives, capital investment and visitor confidence, and all in the space of 2 devastating months.

Nationwide, an industry that generated $6500m in foreign exchange last year has gone into a tail spin and, of course, the damage is not confined to this industry alone. The effects are reverberating throughout the entire economy. Let there be no mistake. This mess is fast looming as the greatest economic crisis to confront this nation since the Great Depression. Australia cannot afford to lose a multi-billion dollar industry that employs nearly 500 000 people, all because of a dispute that is now more about massaging engorged egos than wages and productivity.

7561


On day 2 of the dispute, the Prime Minister, the world's so-called greatest negotiator, turned it into a personal battle with the pilots by describing their excessive wage demands as 'bloody war'. While the Prime Minister has put his job on the line in his personal war and ego trip, the ultimate irony is that he and his ministers do not appear to believe that an economic crisis exists. Incredible as it sounds, in week 6 of the dispute, Industrial Relations Minister, Peter Morris, declared that the tourism industry was not being affected by the strike. In week 7, the federal Treasurer dismissed the industry's plight with the penetrating observation that a leading Sydney hotel had an occupancy rate of 83% and that no crisis existed in the industry. No wonder the dispute has been allowed to drag on for 2 months. The federal Labor government believes there will be a crisis only if the pilots' demands .••

Mr Smith: Why don't you offer a solution?

Mr VALE: ... break the wages accord ..•

Mr Smith: All right, so this week it is the pilots. Next week it is ..• ?

Mr SPEAKER: Order!

Mr VALE: Mr Speaker, it is interesting to note that the Leader of the Opposition, who has been remarkably silent except for a single brief occasion during the 8 weeks, is now starting to put his head up from behind the rocks.

The harsh reality is that the Territory tourism industry is bleeding to death, and we face an enormous job in rebuilding it unless the dispute is resolved quickly. I am talking about the Northern Territory's second largest industry, an industry that earns nearly $400m a year and employs, or did employ, 10 000 people. That is 17% of our total work force. Let us remember also that it is not made up of just a few large operators. Most tourist operations are small businesses and are run by typical Territory battlers.

Back in June and July, the industry was set for a profitable season, despite a slow start to the year. If the pilots' dispute had not intervened, the normal pattern for this time of the year would be for tours to be full, with hotels reaching their capacity, and retail outlets experiencing brisk trade. 25 000 visitors should be travelling though the Territory every week in response to excellent national and international promotion and advertising campaigns run by the Tourist Commission. Instead, visitor numbers have been reduced to a trickle and our tourists operators are being crushed.

Millions of dollars worth of national and international advertising and promotion by the Tourist Commission is now counting for little. The goodwill and the trust that has been painstakingly built up with the wholesale and retail holiday decision makers has now gone out the window. Thousands of jobs and millions of dollars worth of investment are now at stake, and we face a frightening situation. As a result of the pilots' dispute, we have a situation in Darwin where international visitors using the city as a gateway are unable to travel south, and they are having difficulty getting plane seats home because Territorians are grabbing the opportunity to take an Asian holiday as they too are unable to travel south. Soon many Asian visitors may not be able to come here at all because available seats may be taken by Territorians returning home.

In Alice Springs, the industry has been hit by an average downturn in business of 66%. While some operations are down 20%, others have dropped

7562


by 100%. At Yulara, occupancy rates for facilities catering to domestic tourists are now running at 50% or less, instead of 90% as expected at this time of the year. Elsewhere at the resort, occupancy levels have fallen to 30%.

In Katherine, there have been across-the-board losses of between 25% and 40%, with hire car companies and smaller operators hardest hit. However, because the Katherine region relies heavily on the coach and self-drive market, it has not been as badly affected as most other areas. Fortunately, some operations in Tennant Creek have been left relatively untouched, but others are suffering badly. Throughout the Territory, cancellations are now appearing on the ledger far more often than bookings. Inbound and domestic conventions, special interest group bookings and even special charter services have been cancelled. At least 10 national and international conferences that were to have been held in the Territory have been cancelled, and there could well be many more that I am not aware of.

Mr SMITH: Mr Speaker, I rise with some reluctance because this is the honourable member's first speech as a minister, but I draw your attention to the lack of a quorum.

Bells rung.

Mr SPEAKER: A quorum is now present.

Mr VALE: Mr Speaker, tourist operators are facing strong buyer resistance for November and beyond that bookings are few and far between. I know of operators both large and small who are now on the verge of closing their doors. Still more are having to decide whether to struggle on and hope for the best or pay their bills and call it quits, at least until the situation is resolved.

Except for the initiatives of the Northern Territory government, the Territory industry would be in an even worse position. The chartering of the Ro~l Brunei aircraft has helped maintain a small flow of tourists into the Territory. Our discount voucher scheme was greatly appreciated by the industry and the 23 000 Territorians who took advantage of it, and it is generally accepted that these 2 schemes were responsible for saving some businesses from total collapse. Overall, the government's initiatives have kept money flowing, a situation I am certain that all Territorians welcome. The discount voucher scheme enabled many locals to sample facilities on their own doorstep, something many normally would not have done.

I must pay tribute to the people in the industry who have made many sacrifices to keep businesses operating. In a cooperative effort with management, many staff have used their annual leave, worked part-time and taken pay cuts. At Yulara, for example, staff have taken a 50% cut in pay to keep the resort functioning. Officers of the Northern Territory Tourist Commission and the tourist bureaus have rallied to the cause with a tremendous effort. It says a great deal for the Territory that we have many people who are prepared to make sacrifices when the chips are down. Unfortunately, however, many have lost their jobs as a result of this dispute, which could have and should have been settled long ago. That includes young Territorians who have trained specifically for employment in the industry in recent years.

While the entire nation is suffering from the effects of the pilots' dispute, the Territory is in the worst position because of its isolation. The federal government is claiming that 60% of normal flight services are now

7563


operating, but that is not the case in the Northern Territory. While some east coast regions are receiving close to normal service, Alice Springs has had no more than a handful of flights scheduled for the whole of October. The southern states are coming into their high season, so the situation will improve to some extent even if the pilots do not return to work in the near future. But here in the Territory, we are approaching our traditional low season and are heading for disaster. While the federal government presides over the destruction of our tourism industry with its inability to resolve the pilots' dispute, the Territory government is redoubling its efforts to counteract the ravages.

Our major new initiative is an assistance rebate scheme to attract to the Territory as many visitors as possible from South Australia and South-east Asia over the next 3 months. Under this $2.3m rescue package, which comes into effect on 16 October, transport discounts of $50 and $100 will apply respectively to Australian and international visitors, and a 10% discount will apply to all holiday packages valued at over $600. In addition, Territory tour operators have been asked to discount their current prices for the 3-month period. All Territory tourism operators who are members of a regional tourist association have been encouraged to offer these government-subsidised discounts on their rack or brochured rates. I am hoping that up to 23 000 visitors will take advantage of this attractive offer. The special discount packages will be valid for 3 months, until 16 January 1990. The discount scheme is being backed up by a massive $lm advertising campaign, which the Territory Tourist Commission started on national television and in newspapers this week. As well as generating an immediate increase in the number of visitors, the innovative television campaign is expected to have a long-term effect by stimulating greater interest in the Northern Territory. The newspaper advertisements being run in conjunction with the television campaign will reinforce awareness of the discount rates.

Throughout the airlines dispute, sales staff in the Territory Government Tourist Bureaus around Australia have redoubled their efforts to maintain the Territory's high profile with potential travellers. This work is continuing. Internationally, all Northern Territory Tourist Commission Offices will be approaching overseas operators to reassure them of the viability of Australian tourism following settlement of the dispute. They will stress the commitment of Australian operators included in international programs, and will seek cooperative advertising and market opportunities.

With direct access to Darwin as a gateway to the nation, the Asian market is now becoming an even more important source of tourists. not only for the Territory but for the whole of Australia. The Territory is being promoted on a regional basis in South-east Asia, with the emphasis and amount of promotion varying according to available air links. A joint advertising and promotional campaign is currently being carried out in conjunction with Singapore Airlines to promote both its current services and its new B747 services which commence between Singapore and Darwin on 30 October.

The government and the Tourist Commission, with the tourism industry, will continue the fight to bring us through these desperate times. When this pilots' dispute is finally settled, we will set about rebuilding in the wake of the untold damage that has been done. The most urgent need, however, is for the federal authorities to get the airlines back into full operation in all corners of the nation, not just in the golden triangle. The pilots' dispute must be settled and it must be settled now. It had taken many years of painstaking effort to build the Territory tourism industry to what it was before the disaster struck 8 weeks ago. Many men and women who committed

7564


their savings and a lifetime of effort to the industry are now facing ruin. We are all being affected. If there is any positive side to the industry's plight, it has to be that Territorians are now coming to realise the importance of the industry to the livelihood of the entire Northern Territory.

Mr Speaker, I move that the Assembly take note of the statement.

Mr SMITH (Opposition Leader): Mr Speaker, obviously the opposition shares the concerns that the government has about the pilots' strike and the consequences that it has had on the Northern Territory. There are 2 places in Australia that have suffered more than anywhere else: the Northern Territory and Tasmania. I know that the minister likes saying that we are the biggest, the best or the worst, whatever is appropriate, but Tasmania must be at least equally affected by the pilots' dispute.

The impact of the strike on the tourist industry in the Northern Territory has been devastating. The member for MacDonnell, who services his large electorate with great efficiency and effectiveness now that he has a pilot's licence, was at Yulara last week. I know that he is deeply concerned about the situation there. It is not the peak season but visitation should be reasonably high. However, over the last 10 weeks, it has been suffering dramatically because of the lack of airline connections.

Operators in Alice Springs have contacted me expressing their concern about the situation. By the way, they have been expressing their concern about the assistance that the government was offering in the form of tourism vouchers. They did not get any of the resulting business. I make that point without being overly-critical. Clearly, the Northern Territory government was faced with an impossible situation. In my view, it could not come up with any scheme that would satisfy everybody in the industry. I certainly do not have any hesitation in congratulating the government on the actions that it has taken. I have a couple of suggestions about what else it might do, but certainly the actions it has taken were appropriate. They have cost a significant amount of money and, at a later stage, we will need to assess how effective that money was in creating work within the tourist industry. Certainly, the government's prompt action is to be commended.

I disagree with the minister's view that the strike would have ended some weeks ago if only the federal government had taken a different attitude or had kept out of negotiations. Possibly, that is the case. But, it would set a terrible precedent by allowing a bunch of greedy people, as the pilots obviously are, to use their industrial muscle to get what they want. That was what occurred in the 1960s and the 1970s when large unions, particularly in the transport sector, used industrial muscle to obtain exorbitant wage increases. The federal government needs to be congratulated on taking a firm stand against this large union with its industrial clout. The consequences of allowing the airline pilots to get away with their outrageous demands would be enormous. Powerful unions right across the spectrum would have made similar demands. , That would have had a greater effect on the Northern Territory than on the more settled areas. As I have said, unions with industrial muscle tend to be located in key industrial areas such as transport. We would have seen a wages demand break-out that would have created havoc, not only in the airline industry but in associated transport industries. That would have affected the Territory more than most.

Mr Speaker, if you want any confirmation of the fact that the airline pilots, as long ago as February, were planning for a long industrial dispute, you need to look no further than the information that they themselves have

7565


issued. In February, the Australian Federation of Air Pilots issued a newsletter entitled, 'Deadline 89'. I will quote some of the material in that newsletter:

At some stage in one's working life, the potential to face a non-income period (NIP) exists. Now may be an appropriate time for the prudent pilot to review both long- and short-term financial arrangements. By careful planning beforehand, the full impact of such a NIP can be dramatically reduced. Many of you have accountants or other financial advisers who will be able to give you professional guidance, but outlined below are some basic ways of reducing the impact of a NIP.

Under the subheading of, 'Increasing Income', it says:

Establish other employment opportunities. Many people have acquired a taxi driver's licence. Some step the other side of the bar. Others gain odd jobs to keep up a cash flow. Consider your skills and interests such as gardening or building and the type of work you did before becoming a pilot. Even try the job boards at your local employment centre. Involve your family in terms of jobs that your spouse and children may be able to gain. Every dollar helps in these circumstances and is important in terms of the totality of family involvement. If you are owed money, start collecting it now. Remember that, at the end of the financial year, a NIP should involve a refund from the Taxation Department.

It is clear that the Australian Federation of Air Pilots has planned an almighty industrial confrontation for the last 6 months. What it did not plan on was the resolve of the federal government to deal with the matter within existing wage guidelines. I think that, ultimately, the federal government will receive the commendation of the Australian electorate for the tough and determined stand that it has taken on this matter. It has saved us from a period of industrial conflagration as everybody else tried to catch up.

Mr Speaker, I have already congratulated the Northern Territory government on what it has done to attempt to soften the impact of the pilots' strike. However, I must exclude the Chief Minister. On 3 September, the Chief Minister got up on his Sunday Territorian soapbox - and I have one too - and declared: 'Strike action by domestic pilots has turned into one of the most serious economic threats in the history of the Territory'. He went on to say that 'tourism employs 17% of our work force and the years of hard work it has taken to build the industry is being thrown away by this dispute'. He then left for a .holiday in the United States. I do not criticise the Chief Minister for going away on a holiday. However, on his return, he was asked what evidence of damage to the Territory tourism industry he had gathered overseas, and this is where I do criticise him. It turned out that he had not gathered any evidence. He added: 'I was not looking for any. I was on holiday'. For the 31 weeks that he was overseas in one of our prime tourist markets, he was on holiday. He did not take a single initiative to find out what impact the strike was having in the United States. Personally, I find that appalling. He was over there for 31 weeks and behaved as if he did not even know that there was a strike. He did nothing to find out what the impact was.

Then, on his return, he had some useful suggestions for the local tourism industry. He said that, in the USA, tourists pay 15% tips, and hotel taxes ranging between 3% and 10%. That got the Chief Minister thinking - which is

7566


an achievement in itself - about the Territory bed tax and the possibilities for further taxation on the tourism industry. He got that wrong too. He was talking about an existing bed tax of 1.5% when, in fact, it is 2.5%.

Mr Speaker, imagine the impact that that statement by the Chief Minister had on the tourism industry. We have domestic flights starting to return. We have a punch-drunk tourism industry starting to think that perhaps there is a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Then the Chief Minister comes home from his holiday saying that he has not bothered to make any inquiries about the impact of the strike in the United States, one of our prime markets, and suggesting, in a flippant and offhand manner, that perhaps we should look at the possibility of increasing the rate of taxes that we levy on the tourism industry. No wonder the industry was angry and no wonder that, the following morning, the Chief Minister very quickly made a categorical statement that there would be no increase in tourism related taxes. However, the point is that any Ch.ief Minister who was sensitive to what had been happening in the Northern Territory in the 3i weeks that he was away would not have even made the suggestion. Any Chief Minister who knew that people were losing their jobs, and that long-established businesses in the Northern Territory were on the point of closing down would not have been so insensitive about the plight of his fellow Territorians. But that was not the case with the Chief Minister, who had been on a lovely 3i week holiday in the United States of America. He could not give a continental about the fate of Territorians in the tourism industry trying to make a.living.

I have to say that, when I took my holiday, I took it as a tourist in the Northern Territory and spent a week in our greatest natural attraction, Kakadu National Park.

Mr Manzie: You didn't go to Coronation Hill, did you?

Mr SMITH: I did not spend my time overseas. And, as part of that exercise, I did make the effort to familiarise myself with the attractions of Kakadu National Park, including Coronation Hill.

Mr Speaker, as somebody said to me, if the Chief Minister

Mr Manzie: Did you do it on a government voucher?

Mr SMITH: No, I did not use the government vouchers, actually. I should have, but I did not. If the Chief Minister paid the same tourism tax on his Doctor's Gully fish-feeding venture as other sections of the industry have to pay, he might have had an incentive to take more interest in the plight of the people who have worked so hard to make his business profitable.

Mr Manzie: What a lot of rubbish! Tell us about the Prime Minister and his attempt to prolong the air strike.

Mr SMITH: Where were you when I told you about that?

As I said earlier, there are 2 areas where the Northern Territory government could have improved its game. The Northern Territory government has been full of criticism of the federal government and its inability to resolve the dispute. It has been very critical of the federal government and its inability to get flights into the Northern Territory, and I must say that the work of the Territory federal member, Warren Snowdon, to persuade the 2 airlines to put flights into the Northern Territory should not go unnoticed. He has worked tirelessly with the federal minister, Ralph Willis, to ensure

7567


that we get our fair share of the flights and, without him, there is no doubt that the flights that Australian Airlines and Ansett Airlines have been bringing into Darwin this week would not have occurred. There is no doubt about that.

What I want to know •.•

Mr Manzie: Territorians know what the truth is. You do not have to try to pull the wool over their eyes. They realise. They are fully awake. What do you want to know?

Mr SMITH: I want to know why the Northern Territory government has not been equally successful in getting Airlines of North Australia to provide even basic services to our remote communities of Nhulunbuy and Groote Eylandt and to our communities at Katherine, Tennant Creek and Ayers Rock. As I understand it, during the course of this dispute, we have not seen one plane from Airlines of North Australia operating in the Northern Territory, although its sister company, Airlines of Western Australia, is operating some sort of services within Western Australia.

Mr Harris: Ansett NT.

Mr SMITH: Ansett NT, is it? Right. It is Ansett NT. I would like to know if perhaps the Minister for Transport and Works - oh no, he cannot tell us because he has been overseas for 4 weeks as well. Perhaps the person who ••.

Mr Finch: I will tell you, don't you worry. I will tell you.

Mr SMITH: Like to tell us about the poker machines, eh?

Perhaps the Minister for Transport and Works could get some information from his department and the minister who acted in his portfolio and tell us what pressure has been put on Ansett NT, which has monopoly arrangements in the Territory, to provide at least some services to remote outposts in the Northern Territory, particularly Gove and Groote Eylandt which have not seen a single Ansett NT aircraft.

Mr Manzie: Have you heard about what is happening out there?

Mr SMITH: Yes, I have heard about what has been happening out there. Air North has been flying there on a regular basis. My point is that Ansett NT planes are flying throughout Western Australia and not one of them has managed to get to the Northern Territory. I would like to ask the minister why that is the case, particularly as the Northern Territory government has offered it a monopoly arrangement within the Northern Territory.

Mr Firmin: If you get $200m not to fly, I suppose that helps.

Mr Coulter: I have thrown you off your track, have I?

Mr SMITH: No, you have not. I was just waiting for the inane interjection of the member for Ludmilla to be picked up and registered by Hansard. They do not get much amusement up there, but every time the member for Ludmilla opens his mouth, they get some. Fortunately for them, they do not have to cope with much of it because he does not open his mouth all that often.

7568


I suggest to the Minister for Tourism that we need to look ahead to next year. As I understand it, because operators are stretched for cash at the moment, they are unable to put in place the infrastructure necessary to market their product. If people do not see the brochures on the stands, the videos and so forth, they are unlikely to come here next year. My major concern is that, unless operators are able to get their brochures out very quickly, the problem will continue into next year. I am not aware of any arrangements that have been put in place to assist operators who are currently having trouble paying for that sort of basic and necessary infrastructure and I would appreciate hearing some comment on that from government speakers in this debate, whenever it continues. It is important.

I am happy to accept that, in the short term, the government has provided a number of worthwhile incentives to keep the industry rolling along. However, we really need to look at next year's tourist season as the major problem. I am not convinced, from what I have heard to date; that the government has addressed that problem properly at this stage.

Mr Manzie: I hope the Prime Minister will have stopped interfering by then.

Mr SMITH: But now you are not so sure?

Mr Manzie: No.

Mr SMITH: So surly, so surly.

Mr Coulter: That is pretty good. I think we have got you grinning.

Mr SMITH: Yes, well, perhaps you might stop treating it flippantly and even do something about it.

Mr Coulter: I would like to. I have been very negligent in trying to help the tourism industry.

Mr Firmin: I do not know how you can possibly hold your head up.

Mr Coulter: Not as much as you though.

Mr Manzie: It is all our fault too, you know.

Mr Coulter: You have been a shining example all the way through with what you have contributed to the tourism industry. It has been remarkable.

Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable Leader of the Opposition will be heard in silence.

Mr SMITH: Mr Speaker, to conclude, quite clearly the tourism industry faces a difficult time. It needs the support of everybody in the Northern Territory to get itself moving. Everybody hopes that the current movement amongst the airline pilots will turn into a reality and that they win return to the wages system and get back to work. It is very apparent that this growing industry has suffered a severe setback. Hopefully, when things settle down, we will see the industry grow over the next 3 or 4 years without setbacks like this. I am confident that, with proper direction from the relevant government authorities, the industry will quickly take steps to recover from its problems in the wake of the pilots' strike.

7569


Debate adjourned.

APPROPRIATION BILL 1989-90 (Serial 215)

Continued from 11 October 1989.

In committee:

Appropriation for division 37:

Mr EDE: Mr Chairman, I gave the minister a number of written questions which I will now read into Hansard.

At 30 June 1989, how many equivalent full-time student units were enrolled in each faculty, and how does this match up with projections made last year? What is the cost per EFTSU estimated for 1989-90 compared to the actual cost for 1988-89, and how much is being spent currently on the provision of external courses ·for people around the Northern Territory? Has any planning or costing been done on offering an external course leading to a Diploma of Education and, if so, what are the details and results?

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, earlier in this debate, the opposition spokesman on education asked about recorded sets of objectives for the university. Perhaps I could point out initially that the Northern Territory University is an autonomous institution which is responsible for .its own decisions. The government did issue guidelines to the Northern Territory University Council and naturally, because of the considerable amount of Territory money that has been allocated to the university - money which should have been forthcoming from the federal government - the government is very much involved with the council as far as those moneys are concerned, as is quite proper.

Having said that, the Northern Territory University is presently developing a mission statement which will be used for a number of purposes. It will be used as a guide as far as priorities are concerned. It will be released to the public and, because there is a need to attract increased student numbers, it will be used in the marketing process. As soon as further information comes to hand, I will make it available to honourable members.

Mr Chairman, the member ~or Stuart asked for information concerning effective full-time student units. He asked about the position as of 30 June 1989. Unfortunately, that figure is not available. However, I have the figures as at 2 October 1989. I will give actual student numbers and EFTSUs for the various faculties. They were as follows:

Arts Faculty Business Faculty Education Faculty Science Faculty

Actua 1 EFTSU Student Numbers

865 569 846 302

583 349 515 186

The total numbers of stUdents and EFTSUs were 2582 and 1633 respectively.

The honourable member also wanted information on the projected figures. I will provide the figures which were agreed to with the Department of Employment, Education and Training as the basis for 1989 funding.

7570


Arts Faculty Business Faculty Education Faculty Science Faculty

Projected Student Numbers

962 634 589 330

EFTSU

699 411 417 238

The total numbers of students and EFTSUs were 2515 and 1765 resp~ctively. should point out that those figures relate to higher education only. .

The honourable member requested the cost per EFTSU. That fi~ure is not available. It could not be provided on a financial year basis and lam sur'e that the honourable member is aware of that. Last year's operations were split between the Darwin Institute of Technology and the University College. The 1989 figure will not be avail~ble until the year end, when financfal data is compiled. When the information Comes to hand, I will make it available to honourable members.

The next question related to external courses. These costs are very difficult to identify because they include infrastructure and other hidden costs. Having said that, the approximate amount spent on external courses is $500 000. The Northern Territory University acts as a broker to approximately 1100 students, putting them in touch with other universities. Also it has 400 of its own external students who are funded by normal recurrent Commonwea 1 th fundi ng at the same 1 eve 1 as the on-campus students. I should mention that, when we talk about the cost per student, the federal government's costing is $8300 per student and that is the basis on which we have been funded.

As far as an external Diploma of Education is concerned, it has not been investigated at this particular time. It is very expensive to develop such courses. In accordance with the Commonwealth pri orit i es, as out 1 i ned in the White Paper, the number of institutions offering external courses is to be limited to specified distance education centres, or DECs as they are termed. Therefore, the Northern Territory University acts as a broker, 'referring external students to appropriate distante edu~ation centres. I might say here that there was quite a kafuffle when the Commonwealth was in the process of deciding where those centres were to be located. '

Given that situation, the Northern Terl"itory University has not investigated the possibility of offering an external Diploma of E;ducation. It should also be noted that only Murdoch University offers a 3-year primary Diploma of Education externally whilst the University of New England offers a I-year graduate diploma for secondary teaching. A few distance education centres offer a I-year graduate diploma for primary teaching.

Mr EDE: Mr Chairman, I note that we are below our projections for 1989. When negotiations were undertaken with the federal government, were the projections for 1989 to be achieved at a particular point in the year?' Obviously, numbers are high immediately after the enrolment period' and subsequently reduce because of drop-outs. Is the projected EFTSU figure worked out as an average fig~re for the whole year? I take the minister's point about the calendar year. I apologise for talking in terms of financial years. I will look forward to receiving the 1989 figures.

7571

DERATES - Thursrlav l~ October l op9

Tn respect of the provlsl0n of external courses, the minister mentioned a federal oovernment cost of $8300. I would like a clarification as to whether the figure relates to hi0her education, TAFE or both.

As far as the Diploma of Education is concerned, I accept that there may be difficulties in terms of negotiations with the federal government and that it is probably uneconomical to develop our own Diploma of Education. However, as honourable members know, we suffer from a very severe shortage of teachers in secondary schools. I personally know quite a few people with tertiary Qualifications who, having spent some time working in the Territory as geologists or in other occupations involving field work, want to move into other employment as their children grow up. If we were able to offer an Diploma of Education externally through the Northern Territory University, we would have a chance of keeping those people in the Territory rather than having them move elsewhere to undertake such study.

I know that people can undertake external studies with interstate institutions whilst staying in the Territory, hut that usually involves spending some time at the institutions concerned. Is there a possibility that our university could teach another institution's course on an agency basis or something similar so that students would not have to spend time interstate? Perhaps the minister could have the possibilities investigated and advise me at a later stage as to whether there are any opportunities.

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, the honourable member was correct about the April figures. We were on target at that particular point in time. The federal government has agreed to maintain funding at the projected levels for 1990 and we are very pleased with that. I am sure honourable members would be aware that there is a need for us to market the universitv. Further efforts will be made in that regard and I believe that we will be ~ble to increase the number of students attending the university in the years to come. The external cost figures are for higher education.

As far as the Qiploma Of Education is concerned, the university council and Vice-Chancellor Professor Nairn are very keen to see a network system developed in the Northern Territory. He will be looking at involving the Alice Springs Co)1ege of TAFE and other institutions, such as those in Nhulunbuy, Katherine and variou~ other areas. However, we have to be very careful about maintaining credibility. ~Ie have been very aware of that in establishing our university. We have to ensure that courses offered have credibility. Professor Nairn is very keen to develop in the areas which we are discussing, and I am sure that the Northern Territory University will take note of the needs of the people of the Territory. I agree with the honourable member that there is a need to make progress in respect of education courses.

Appropriation for division 37 agreed to.


Mr BAILEY: Mr Chairman, have some questions. I apologise for not providing them to the minister in advance and I am quite happy for him to provide the answers at a later time.

Pecently, the minister commented on restructuring within student driver education. Can the minister Give us some more details about that restructuring? ran he confirin' whether the senior officer in that area has already been transferred and is not being replaced? What amount has been cut from the program? How many students will be able to participate in student driver education in the Darwin area in 1990?

757?

OFRATES - Thursday I? Octoher 1989

Another question concerns the outdoor education program presently located at Batchelor. Is it correct that this program is to he moved to lake Bennett? If so, can the minister guarantee that this will not result in an increased cost to the students who' participate in the program?

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, there has been a perception that we intend to withdraw the Student nriver Education Proaram from the school svstem. It is unfortunate that people de not wait uniil issues have heen l~oked at fully. The Northern Territory government is tryi ng to pri Vilt i se that pa rticul a r program. We realise that there are problems in relation to that. We realise also that it is not just a case of teaching students to turn a steering wheel and push pedals. There is a need to cover a whole range of matters and the government is looking at the most appropriate method of providing that vital service to the community. We want to ensure that the program is not only maintained but improved upon. If the service can be provided hy the private sector, the government will bE rroving in that direction. Refore any announcement is made, Cabinet has to make that final decision. The Chairman of the Road Safety Council will be involved in the process and the comments of people who have an interest in the area will he considered. The program has not been axed, as some would have us believe, but we are looking at privatisation.

The outdoor education program is not moving in total. Students in the early years will older students will be taught at Lake Rennett. the Ratchelor School and the costs are expected costs.

from Batchelor to Lake Bennett be taught at Batchelor and the It is all under the control of to he comparable with existing

Mr LEO: Mr Chairman, the questions I am about to ask have been sent to the minister hy the member for Stuart.

Can the minister advise on the recorded sets of ob~ectives for the department and the established method of measuring achievement or failure of individual programs against those objectives? Can he advise of the maximum staffing levels for the following programs in 1987-88 and 1988-89: Corporate Management - total, and broken down into the areas of central administration and regional administration; Preschool and Primary Education - total, and broken down into the areas of urban schools, remote schools, School of the Air, area school s and Commonwealth-funded programs; Secondary Education - total, and broken down into the areas of comprehens.ive secondary schools, junior secondary schools, senior secondary colleges, secondary correspondence schools and residential collepes; Fducation Support Services - total, and broken down into the areas of teacher support services, student support services and Commonwealth-funded programs?

Will the minister detail the reason for the apparent drop in in central administration, urban schools, primary schools, schools, junior secondary schools, senior secondary colleges support services? What categories of staff are involved? For teachers involved?

staff numbers comprehensive and education example, are

Can the minister detail the actual 1988-89 levels of expenditure and maximum staff levels for the following proqrams: curriculum and assessment; advisory services; English as a second language; music; student services; educational resources; library administration, technical and user; financial subsidy schemes; student assistance schemes; scholarships and bursaries; staff training and assessment; special sporting events; Katherine House; and head-leased accommodation? What program category from the 1998-90 budget have the above programs been allocated to?

7573

OEBATES - Thursday 12 October 1989

Are any negotiations in place for the establishment and implementation of zonal allowances, as promised in February 1989? If any allocation has been made in this year's budget, how much is it and where does it appear? What are the actual numbers of full-time student counsellors in secondary schools in the Northern Territory in the years 1986-87, 1987-88, 1988-89 and budgeted for in 1989-90? What were the actual funding and maximum staffing levels for Yirara College in the years 1986-87, 1987-88, 1988-89 and 1989-90? What actual· funding and staff were allocated to the Alice Springs High School in the years 1986-87, 1987-88, 1988-89 and are budgeted for in 1989-90 for the purposes of providing special needs education to Yirara students making the transition to ~lice Springs High School? What planning is being done on the development of primary schools in larger Aboriginal communities to area school status offering, secondary education to Year 10 level?

What is the 1989-90 allocation for the Year 10 external examinations? From which area is it allocated and what criteria are in place to assess whether the program is successful? What are the specific program activities under the cate90ry of Northern Territory government assistance schemes? What

; was the actual expenditure on these programs in 1987-88, 1988-89 and what is budgeted for in 1989-90?

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, I thank the member for Nhulunbuy for asking those questions.

In relation to the first question about recorded objectives, which the opposition is asking of every department, I remind honourable members that a number of documents have been presented from time to time, including 'Directions for the Eighties' and 'Towards the 90s'. In addition, annual reports are tabled. Those reports set out the actual functions and activities of the department and honourable members would be aware that each unit within the department reports in more detail on its principal activities for the year in question. These reports, taken together with the reported financial outcomes, which are set out quite clearly in the budget papers, indicate the overall performance of the department against the stated functions.

For administrative programs~ standard achievement measures are used; for example, meeting deadlines, keeping to budget, usage rates etc. The major clients of the department are, of.course, the students. Achievement measures include: enrolments; attendance rates; retention rates; and progression rates, especially in Years 7-8 and 10-11. Qualitative achievement is measured by testing and moderation programs in Years 3, 5, 7 and 10 and results from the senior secondary assessment program of South Australia in Year 12. Testing is carried out also in Aboriginal and urban schools in Years 3, 5 and 7. The results of those tests are available to the schools at the end of the year and to the public in the middle of the following year.

I should say in this context that·it surprises me that the opposition continually knocks the· whole exercise of Year 10 assessment

Mr Ede: Never. Only external examinations.

Mr HARRIS: •.. when it is talking about setting goals and assessing whether progress is being made towards them.

Mr Ede: Exams do not measure it.

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, I beg to differ with the honourable member. We have in place a program now whi ch wi 11 a 11 ow us to i denti fy whether we are

7574


reaching those goals. The member for Stuart would be aware that some of the results which have been received, particularly from some of the Aboriqinal schools, are not good, although there are reasons for that. .

We have aims and objectives and the areas which we cover appear in the detailed estimates, where the aims of the various programs are set out. For example, the aim of the urban schools program is 'to ensure the delivery of quality education to all children of this age group in urban areas of the Northern Territory'. The program descriptions set out very clearly what we expect of our education system.

There is a whole range of other methods of assessing our directions and progress. For example, in the area of curriculum review, superintendents report on every school throughout the year. They give school appraisals. New teachers are evaluated and those seeking promotion have to 00 through a peer assessment process. The Master Teachers Scheme is being established and that will require certain criteria to be met. Also we have testing in relation to schools and the programs that are to be set in place. We have methods of assessing our progress in terms of objectives, and we will be continuinn to use those methods.

Mr Chairman, the second question requested comparisons of maximum staffing levels by program for the financial years 1987-88 and 1988-89. I will give figures for each activity and the programs under that activity. In each case, the first figure will be for 1987-88 and the second for 1988-89.

The MSLs for Corporate Manaqement were 315 and 315, including central administration 256 and 257 and regional administration 59 and 58. Preschool and Primary Education were 1677 "and 1730, including urban schools 988 and 1000, remote schools 573 and 614, School of the Air 40 and 42, area schools 71 and 74, and Commonwealth-funded programs 5 and nil. Secondary Education was 929 and 874, including comprehensive secondary schools 314 and 322, junior secondary schools n4 and 277, senior secondary colleges 180 and 180, secondary correspondence schools 40 and 40, and residential colleges 113 and 55. I should indicate here that the reduction from 113 to 55 in respect of residential colleges came about because Kormilda College has become an independent school. That caused a reduction of 57, and 1 extra position at Yirara gives the total of 55.

Mr Ede: not 9?9.

Your Secondary Education total for 1987-88 should be 921,

Mr HARRIS: I will have that checked and I will advise you. To conclude in respect of Secondary Education, Commonwealth-funded programs were 8 and nil.

The figures for Education Support Services were 432 and 429, including teacher support services 75 and 73, student support services 338 and 337 and Commonwealth-funded programs 19 and 19.

If I could just go back to the Secondary Education MSL for 1987-88, 929 is the correct figure. The figures which gave that total were 314, 274, 180, 40, 113 and 8.

Mr Ede: I see. The 8 was for Commonwealth-funded.

Mr HARRIS: The total MSL for the years 1987-88 was 3353 and the total for 1988-89 was 3348.

7575

nEBATES - Thursday 12 October 1989

Mr Chairman, the next question related to the reason for the apparent drop in staff numbers in central administration, urban preschools, primary schools, comprehensive schools, junior secondary schools, senior secondary schools, ~enior secondary colleges and education support services. It asked what categories of staff were involved and whether they included teachers. The answer is that there is no drop in staff numbers other than through formula-related changes. Schools are staffed on the basis of a government-approved formula which relies heavily on student enrolments and attendance. At this time of the year, there is a normal movement of students, particularly in secondary colleges or in the senior years, which will result in the reduction of teaching staff. When the drop of 57 MSL for Kormilda College is adjusted for, there is an overall increase of 52.

The next question requested details of the actual 1988-89 levels of expenditure and maximum staff levels for a number of programs. I will list the programs under teacher support services and student support services. I will 9ive the MSL figure first, followed by the expenditure figure expressed in thousands. Before going on, I will indicate that the figures for information systems were nil and 664.

The totals for teacher support services are 73 ~nd 5340. The figures for individual programs under that heading are: advisory services - 54 and 2253; education resources - 19 and 1294; teacher bursaries - nil and nil; staff training and assessment - nil and 523; and head lease accommodation - nil and 1270. The total student support services MSL was 337 and the expenditure was 16 633. The figures for programs under this heading were: curriculum and assessment - 41 and 2458; English as a second language - 81 and 2546; Music - 14 and 371; student services - 197 and 7839; the financial subsidy scheme - nil and 1197; the student assistance scheme - nil and 712; scholarships - nil and 1048; special sports events - nil and 213; Katherine House - 4 and 249; and library administration, technical and user - 53 and 2787.

The next question asked what program category from the 1989-90 budget the above programs have been allocated to. The answer is that the programs are listed in the 3 relevant program categories used in the 1989-90 budget format. I have just given the details under those categories.

Mr Ede: Teacher support services and student support services. Right.

Mr HARRIS: Library administration technical and user has been transferred to division 36 under Technical and Further Education. It should be noted also that, althou9h some programs have nil MSL allocations, staff administering such programs are actually located in Corporate Management. The expenditure figure of ~664 000 for information systems is for school-based computing. The staff are located in the information systems area of central administration.

Mr Chairman, the next question asked whether negotiations were in place for the establishment and implementation of zonal allowances as promised in February 1989 and, if any allocation had been made in this budget, how much was it and where did it appear?

A working party including representatives of the Northern Territory Teachers Federation, the NT Principals Association and the Department of Education has concluded discussions regarding a proposed incentive package for staff teaching in remote communities. This package is now being assessed in preparation for submission to the Teaching Service Commissioner and the Minister for Education. The incentives package is subject to the processes of

7576


award restructuring and, as this is still at the development phase, no provision has been made in this year's budget. Could I just say here, Mr Chairman, that all state ministers are actively looking at this area. Queensland's recent move in relation to salary structure is of concern to all ministers but we are working together to arrive at a satisfactory arrangement. I can assure honourable members that I will be looking to ensure that our teachers are given a fair go. ~Ie will be following developments very carefully. I anticipate that a paper will come to Cabinet shortly and some announcement should be made within the next month in relation to that exercise.

I was asked to give the actual number of full-time student counsellors in secondary schools in the Northern Territory in the years 1986-87, 1987-88 and 1988-89, and budgeted for in 1989-90. The staffing formula for secondary schools is based on student-staff ratios of 15.8 to 1 in the junior secondary area and 12.8 to 1 in the senior secondary area. Utilising this ratio and the approved formula, staff numbers are allocated for each school. Individual schools decide on the deployment of positions allocated through utilisation of the staffing formula. The Department of Education does not allocate counsellors to each school. Individual schools decide whether they wish to have access to a counsellor or counsellors. If a school wants a counsellor, the position is provided on a full- or part-time basis from within the school's overall staffing allocation. I believe that there is a need for the government to issue guidelines in this area because, in some cases, schools are choosing to allocate positions to counsellors and that is having an effect on the achievement of the education program and the curriculum as directed by the department. The government is actively pursuing that matter at present.

The next question concerned the details of actual funding and maximum staffing levels for Yirara College in the years 1986-87, 1987-88 and 1988-89, and funds budgeted and staff allocated for 1989-90. It is difficult to make comparisons of expenditure between any 2 financial years due to changes that have occurred as a result of the major review and the introduction of program budgeting. Following the review, a new staffing structure was set up and imp1emented. However, the teaching staff remained constant, the variation in MSL being brought about by the use of contract services, such as cleaning, administration, laundry etc, and the resultant savings in staff.

In this case, the headings will be as follows: year, MSL, salary, school-based funding, operation, and total. Money amounts are in the thousands of dollars. Prior to the review in 1986-87, the MSL figure, which included a lot of ancillary staff, was 70; salary was 1855, school-based funding 271 and operational 424, giving a total of 2520. After the review - and, again, a lot of the work went out to contract - the 1987-88 figures were, MSL 59, salary 1615, school-based funding 257, operational 408, with a total of 2280. In 1988-89, the MSL was 59, salary 1700, school-based funding 261, operational 296 - and it should be noted here that the drop from 408 to 296 was not a cut but the result of our being able to obtain ABSEC plus the benefits - with a total of 2257. In 1989-90, the MSL figure was 58, salary 1764, school-based funding 267, operational 282, with a total of 2313. As far as Territory money is concerned, it dropped 200 down to 150 which works out to about $15 000 per student, and that is not including ABSEC.

Mr Ede: Sorry, could you say that again?

Mr HARRIS: I am just saying that, based on the number of students that are there now, it works out to approximately $15 000 per student, and that does not include ABSEC.

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The decrease in the college budget operational 1987-88 was due to the fact that student travel costs were met by DEET, and again in 1988-89 following the receipt of ABSEC payments. The NT allocation was reduced accordingly. Other variations from time to time reflect expenditure on variables, such as clothing, linen, etc.

The next question related to details of actual funding and staff allocations for the Alice Springs High School in the years 1986-87, 1987-88, 1988-89 and budgeted for in 1989-90 for the purpose of providing special needs education to Yirara students making the transition to high school. A per capita allocation is provided to Alice Springs High School to cater for Yirara students attending. The allocation is as follows: 1986-87, $3400; 1987-88, $3845; 1988-89, $3000; and in 1989-90, $3250. The variations are due to the number of students. After the Yirara College review, an NTPS position was made available to Alice Springs High School for an Aboriginal counsellor to assist students, in particular the Yirara students. Negotiations have commenced with FEPPI to employ tutors within the school to assist in learning situations.

The next question asked what planning is being done on the development of primary schools in larger Aboriginal communities to area school status offering secondary education to Year 10 level. Several points need to be made in replying. The 3 existing area schools are at Alyangula, Batchelor and Jabiru, and they cater for a predominantly non-Aboriginal student population. Instead of attempting to introduce these traditional school types into Aboriginal communities, the Northern Territory government has introduced a new concept, that of community education centres or CECs, which the Commonwealth still calls vocational training centres. The CECs cater for the total educational needs of the community, from preschool to adult education.

The philosophy behind the CECs and the new curriculum model is as follows. By defi niti on, the CEC phil osophy and curri cul um encompasses a 11 the forma 1 education offered to all members of the community, that is from preschool to adult education. The cornerstone of the new curriculum model is the community-based consultative group, which can be the school councilor another action group. This group spearheads the process by supervising the administration of a community and individual needs survey and, secondly, by identifying and or negotiating courses and resources to satisfy the needs of a particular community. The consultative group is assisted in its task by local and external facilitators, advisers or resource people - call them what you like- and by a broadly-based accreditation framework to which community-based curricula can be fitted when desirable or appropriate. This framework should be sufficiently detailed to attract TAFEAC accreditation, yet flexible enough to allow for community-based curriculum input. This dynamic process is supported by a planned program of community-based in-service activities and curri.culum advisory visits and workshops.

The community control model for CEC curricula begins with the community's definition of its traditional, community development and individual needs. Questions are asked in a community needs survey and then course ideas are developed with joint Aboriginal and balanda, o~ non-Aboriginal, input. Arising from that is an evaluation process together with negotiated tasks, leading to the further development of the project under Aboriginal leadership and involving a range of advisers and resource people, including DEET officers, itinerant instructors and the Aboriginal people themselves. The local Aboriginal people are in a position objectively to assess the programs put forward. A network is being developed so that each CEC can draw on the experiences of organisations with similar programs and can be informed about

7578


courses which exist elsewhere and can be adapted to suit local needs. An accreditation process is also in place.

Mr Chairman. CECs are currently operating in 8 Aboriginal communities. and it is intended to increase this to 10 in 1990.

Mr Ede: Sorry - 8?

Mr HARRIS: There are 8 at the present time. and it is intended to increase that number to 10 in 1990.

I should say also that the review which I am currently undertaking is looking at the communities where CECs have been developed. r am taking particular note of what is happening in those communities and further decisions will be taken following the completion of my review. which anticipate will be in the middle of next year.

The next question asked me to advise of the 1988-89 allocation for Year 10 external examinations. from which area the allocation has been made and what criteria are in place to assess whether the program is successful. Mr Chairman. this is one of the issues that has always surprised me. Why have I not been asked a question before about the cost of the external component of the Year 10 assessment package? We have heard comments on the radio that it has cost the world. We have heard comments from the federation and others about the cost of the external examinations. but I have never been asked a question. Perhaps I should correct that. I was asked a question by a student from the Casuarina Secondary College as to what it cost to set up the external component.

In 1989-90. the allocations for Year 10 external examinations are as follows: fares and TA for setting and marking the external papers - $13 227; relief teacher days for external setting and marking - $17 700; marking fees for external papers - $12 000; and printing and postage for ,external papers - $5000. giving a total of $47 927. In addition to those direct costs wou1d be a share of computer and clerical assistance. The examination process has involved the use of a Mac computer. which is also used for other purposes. An A6 clerk is involved in that process. The allocation was included in the student support services program under the activity of Education Support Services.

I turn now to the criteria used to assess the success of the program. First of all. the overall evaluation model will provide for information to be generated in each of 12 designated areas. The· model is designed to provide a range of data and reports will be generated in 2 specific Qreas: organisational and administrative considerations. and assessment strategies and student performance. In the student performance area. we will be looking at the number of students. the schools or centres involved. the test and exam results. moderated results. the comments of examiners and moderators. appraisal of standards. statistical analysis by gender. age and so forth. and mean distributions and standard deviations.

The next question related to specific amounts of expenditure under the Northern Territory Government Assistanc~ Scheme in 1987-88 and 1988-89. and budgeted for in 1989-90 I will give the name of the organisation or program first. followed by the amounts in thousands of dollars for 1987-88. 1988-89 and 1989-90. NT Isolated Children's Parents Association - 14 in 1987-88. 14 in 1988-89 and 18 in 1989-90; isolated students education - 642 in 1987-88. 856 in 1988-89 and 1041 in 1989-90; NT Council of Government School

7579

t

I ~


Organisations (COGSO) - 27 in 1987-88, ?8 in 1988-89, and 28 in 1989-90; independent schools interest on subsidy loans - 519 in 1987-88, 1004 in 1988-89, and 1364 in 1989-90; grants-in-aid - 41 in 1987-88, 90 in 1988-89 and 44 in 1989-90; independent schools recurrent per capita grants - 3545 in 1987-88, 4164 in 1988-89 and 4963 in 1989-90; student assistance interstate per capita - 169 in 1987-88, 106 in 1988-89 and 146 in 1989-90; independent schools capital subsidy - none listed for 1987-77, 343 in 1988-89 and 438 in 1989-90; independent schools Aboriginal teaching assistance subsidy - 46 in 1987-88, 41 in 1988-89 and 65 in 1989-90; independent schools special subsidies - 43 in 1987-88, 3]( in 1988-89, and 667 in 1989-90. I indicate that $600 000 of that $667 000 was transferred to assistance to missions, as I stated during the course of my reply to the budget.

To continue: national education councils - 97 in 1987-88, 100 in 1988-89 and 138 in 1989-90; Life Education Centres - nil in 1987-88, 20 in 1988-89 and 70 in 1989-90; principals' conferences and professional association grants - nil in 1987-88, 44 in 1988-89, and 86 in 1989-90. For arts and cultural affairs, the figure for those years was nil. A figure of $1.2m has been transferred from the health and community services area to education. The totals of the figures were: 5148 in 1987-88, 6936 in 1988-89 and 9068 in 1989-90.

Mr BAILEY: My apologies to the Minister for Education for not being able to give him this question beforehand. I will accept a response at a later time. We have been talking about the importance of accountability and being able to check on results. The minister has mentioned the Year 10 exams. ~lhi1e not wanting to be critical at all of the exam concept itself, it is very important that we make sure that the exam is doing what we asked it to do. There are a number of standard procedures which are used to measure the usefulness of tests, the 2 most common being those which relate to validity and reliability. My questions to the minister revolve largely around those concepts.

To reliably and accurately determine whether or not the exams are consistently measuring what the.Y are supposed to measure, will there be any form of test or re-test, alternative form or split half reliabilities carried out within the test, and what level of correlation coefficients would be required for the reliability to be acceptable within the test? How many scorers have been used or will be used on each test? What level of inter-scorer reliability will be considered acceptable? Once these figures have been calculated, will they be made public? Will an error of variance, without which the scores can be irrelevant, be included within the scores given to all students?

The critical part with the external maths exam is that~tudents were actually required to know only 75% of the Year 10 curriculum. Therefore, they had to answer only 15 of the 20 questions. What makes this external exam so different from any external exam that any members would have ever sat for is the ability to answer only 75% of the questions provided. If we simplify this to 4 questions, with only 3 needing to be answered, and if 1 of those questions is significantly more difficult than the other 3, the scores that the students get, and whether they happen to get 2 right or 3 right, have nothing whatsoever to do with their knowledge of the subject. It just so happens that students' scores are totally dependent on which subjects their teachers taught them and the difficulty of the questions.

7580


My question to the minister is: will he be doing an individual assessment of the maths external exam to show the relative difficulties of each of the 20 questions, and will each question then individually be correlated back to the point where no student is disadvantaged by having answered the apparently more difficult questions?

Is it true that, on the level 1 exam, the highest score so far has been 127 out of 150 and that a decision has already been made actually to lop 20 marks off the top of the paper to bring it down to 130 to try to create a normal distribution, which does not appear to be working very well? Is it true that Zoltan Bacskai of Nightcliff High School, as honourable members may be aware ..•

Mr FINCH: A point of order, Mr Chairman! Perhaps there was some relevance to the budget in the early part of the honourable member's question but the technicalitips and the details of the examination system bear no relationship at all to the Appropriation Bill.

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, I am not trying to stifle information or to refuse to answer questions. I have indicated the costs of the testing component. I indicate to honourable members that the whole exercise will be assessed. I have also indicated that I will be talking to the Northern Tprritory Teachers Federation about the examination results. However, I believe that we are moving away from the budget somewhat with these questions.

Mr Bell: Could I speak to the point of order, Mr Chairman?

Mr CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. The budget deliberations in committee can be as wide-ranging as is necessary because of the financial implications of staffing and other matters. I would suggest that the member has probably canvassed the subject sufficiently for the minister to understand his point.

Mr BAILEY: Mr Chairman, Zoltan Bacskai, a Year 10 student at Nightcliff High School, won the WESTPAC Australian maths competition. That probably puts him among the brightest Year 10 students in Australia and equally probably makes him the best maths student in the Northern Territory. Is it true that Zoltan was able to finish only 14 out of 15 questions in the time provided?

I am concerned about the gross difficulty of this test and the actual validity of the way it has been prepared. In that context, I ask whether it is true that one of the principal setters not only taught Year 10 himself but had a son in Year 10? Is it correct that, after setting the exam, he gave a trial exam to students in his Year 10 class and to another teacher - the teacher of his son? Is it also true that, when other teachers found out about this, the paper was then distributed to all Year 10 teachers by the Department of Education? Unfortunately, many of these students got to see the paper only 2 weeks before the exam, leaving them with very little time to prepare themselves for the type of questions that would be in the paper. Is it standard practice that the actual setters, if they have close relatives sitting for the exam or they teach Year 10, absolve themselves from any responsibility?

It was said that students would not be disadvantaged in relation to calculator use. If we had time, I could identify numerous questions whose answers would have been significantly affected by students' ability to use a calculator or not. In terms of the information given generally to teachers, I ask whether or not the actual end points and statements within the curricula coincided with the questions given in the Year 10 maths external exam.

7581


Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman. could I indicate initially that I was not trying to cut the honourable member off. I am quite happy to receive questions in relation to any area of my portfolio. as every minister is. I want to make that clear. I have the answers to many of the questions raised by the honourable member.

On a previous occasion. the member for Stuart raised the matter of the teacher involved in setting the papers and the tests carried out before the examinations. A full inquiry was carried out in relation to that and I intend to make that information available to honourable members at a later stage.

The techniques that the honourable member referred to initially appear to relate to psychological testing as against external examination methods. I will answer the issues that he has raised in detail. I give that undertaking to the honourable member. Every aspect of the examinations - the conduct. the results. the fact that some students found them difficult, and so on - will be taken into account. We will be looking at the entire exercise and I will give the member the address of the Chairman of the Board of Studies so that he can contact him with his concerns. He is the person who can answer the questions directly. I will be meeting with the Northern Territory Teachers Federation when the results have been completed. The federation is involved in the Board of Studies. There are teachers and students involved and all of the issues that the member has raised will be canvassed at length. During the course of these sittings, I will be giving more detail on a couple of issues which have been raised.

Mrs PADGHAM-PURICH: Mr Chairman, could the minister please explain an item in Budget Paper No 4. For the year 1989-90, there is an item of $258 000 for East Indonesian aid. Could he please explain that? I would also like to know the amount that has been budgeted for Taminmin High School and how this compares with the $1.866m allocated to the Katherine Rural College. having regard to the number of students accommodated at Taminmin as compared to those accommodated at Katherine, and having regard also to the number of teachers employed at Taminmin and the public servants employed at Katherine.

Mr HARRIS: The East Indonesian Aid Program is part of the implementation of the 1987 memorandum of cooperation between the Northern Territory and Indonesia, which involves assisting technical and vocational education development, sporting and cultural links, and implementing inter-school visits and twinning arrangements. The program is also finalising the management proposal for a Commonwealth-funded Indonesia/Australia technical and vocational education aid project. The Commonwealth will contribute towards Northern Territory administration of the project. The memorandum was signed some time ago. Costs are: salaries - $77 000; administrative and operational expenses - $166 000; and capital items - $15 000. The total is $258 000. The maximum staffing level is 3.

The information relating to Taminmin High School and Katherine Rural College is as follows. I will read the category of costs first, followed by the figures for Taminmin and Katherine respectively. Salaries - $1.44m and $787 000; administration and operational expenses - $70 000 and $387 000; capital items - $32 000 and $56 000; other services - $15 000 and nil; repairs and maintenance - $203 000 and $390 000; capital works - $3000 and nil; and property management - $163 500 and $246 000. For Taminmin, the total is $1 926 500 and for Katherine Rural College the total is $1 866 000.

I need to indicate that we are talking about 2 different levels of schooling. Taminmin High School is a school set up under the Education Act.

7582


The Katherine Rural College is set up under the colleges legislation. I believe that the school, the Katherine Rural College and, for that matter, the university, will be working together in future.

As far as staffing is concerned, the MSL at Taminmin High School is 46. That is broken down as 1 Band 4, 2 Band 3, 6 Band 2, 26 Band 1, 1 PE~, 1 A6, 3 SA3s, 2 SA2s, 1 registered nurse, 1 home liaison officer, 1 library technician and 1 A3. In the Katherine Rural College, there is 1 E2, 1 farm operator, 1 senior farm assistant, 1 property coordinator, 1 A8, 1 A6, 1 A4, 1 A3, 7 instructor rural studies, 1 senior development officer Grade 1, 1 head cook, 1 cook, 1 gardener, 1 library assistant and 1 labourer - a total of 21. As I said, Taminmin is running a normal secondary program.

Mr COLLINS: Mr Chairman, my questions are without notice. I hope they will not be too difficult for the minister. If they are, I am happy to receive answers later.

The first relates to the future of Traeger Park School, whose student numbers have been falling. There have been rumours circulating and I would like to know the department's intentions. When is it predicted that stage 2 of Sadadeen Secondary College will be needed? When will the building work towards stage 2 go ahead if it seems needed? Does the government intend to support St Phillips College as it moves towards full secondary courses and towards matriculation by 1992? Is there an increase in the budget for expansion of the examinations system? Can he give me the rationale for the' break-up of the money for Life Education between Darwin and central Australia?

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, I have details in relation to the demographics of the Alice Springs area. There is a lot of movement occurring in that area. At this time, it is business as usual. Everything is continuing to move along.

Sadadeen Secondary College has undertaken a detailed appraisal of itself. The chairman of the council has forwarded me a copy of that report. A number of options have been put forward in relation to providing certain facil ities. I am still looking at those. Additional building needs included provision for dance and drama. An item was included in the 1992 forward works proposal for stage 2 at an estimated cost of $2m. I will provide more details in relation to that question.

Certainly, we will continue to help St Phillips. We will continue to ensure that we are able to provide alternatives to the government system in the Northern Territory. It is important to provide a whole range of options and facilities in the Territory, particularly ·when one considers the cost of sending students to board in other parts of Australia.

In respect of the provision of funding for possible expansion of the examinations, at this time, the answer is no.

Money for Life Education is related to staff only. The figure for the Darwin area is $40 000 which, combined with'$30 000 for central Australia, gives a total of $70 000. When the government originally supported the Life Education Centres last year, I gave the Darwin area assistance. The program that has been developed is operating. I took that into account when making a final decision. I' am looking to ensuring that we are able to continue to assist in the staffing of those units because they playa very important role in the education of our children. I will continue to support the program.

7583


Mr EDE: Mr Chairman, I asked the minister to advise on recorded sets of objectives for the department and the established method of measuring achievement or failure of individual programs against those objectives. His talk about numbers of functions, activities, aims and so forth does not provide the answer. I am after the objectives of the department, and the criteria by which the minister decides whether it has actually achieved those objectives or whether it has failed.

I will give an example at the level of an individual school. The department might say to the school: 'Your attendance rates have traditionally been in the order of 58% to 60%. We want you to set a rate as a target for this year and to measure your success or failure against that target'. The school might indicate that 80% is a reasonable target and it might be agreed in negotiation with the department that below 75% would represent a failure in the program. Such standards could be used throughout the department, not just in terms of attendance but in many other areas including enrolments and retention rates. The previous minister set a target of 44% for Year 12 retention rates for last year. The level at which failure would be considered to have occurred could be set as a result. It might be 42%, 43%, or whatever was considered appropriate.

This involves setting goals, not just for the total organisation, but down into individual programs within that organisation, the individual building blocks that make up the total organisation. That way you can ensure that, right throughout the year, people have the incentive to achieve particular goals which they have set for themselves, and that individuals managing those programs can assess performance. The member for Sadadeen always talks about profit and loss as the great incentive. You do not have that incentive in various areas of the public service. You have to analyse particu}ar functions in order to determine measurable criteria for assessing results.

Certainly, the task is not easy. For example, if school attendance rates were used as a criterion to measure a school's success, there might be an incentive for a school to do things like enrolling only students who were regular attenders, thereby improving its figures. That, of course, would defeat the purpose of the whole exercise. Clearly, there has to be a mix of criteria to ensure that a combination of targets and results gives an accurate overall picture.

I asked the minister to detail the reasons for the apparent drop in staff numbers in various areas. It is obvious that the number of staff in central administration has dropped from 257 down to 235. We have that one sorted out. It may be the result of a reallocation of functions which the honourable minister forgot to mention. Turning to preschools and primary schools, there is a substantial drop of 54 in urban schools. 1000 was the MSL in 1988-89 and this year's figure is 946. Area schools have a smaller drop, from 74 to 69. In secondary education, comprehensive schools numbers dropped very markedly from 322 to 283. In junior secondary school, the numbers dropped from 277 to 252, and senior secondary schools dropped from 180 to 161.

I ask whether those reductions are totally related to the demographic projections for those schools next year. Have we lost such a substantial number of students in our comprehensive schools, junior secondary schools and senior secondary schools? Is the situation in respect of mass emigration even worse than rumour has led us to believe? We are talking about a drop of 10% in student numbers in comprehensive schools, 8% in junior secondary schools and over 10% in senior secondary schools. That is a very substantial drop in numbers in 1 year. It cannot just be a blip in the whole secondary area

7584


because, obviously, there are students coming in and others going out. Supposedly, we are building up our retention rates throughout. One would therefore expect that, if we have the same standard population spread across all age levels and are increasing our retention rates for the same numbers of student-age population, there would gradually be an increase in the numhers at schools. If numbers are dropping at rates of 10% and 8%, and if retention rates are rising, that would mean that the drop in the student numbers is even more substantial. That would be quite staggering.

I will take on board what the honourable minister said about, the award negotiations. I would say, however, that I thought zone allowances were being dealt with outside the award negotiations. I would ask the minister to advise me on that.

I accept that schools decide whether or not to appoint school counsellors, but the minister must have some record of what is happening in the schools in that regard. I do not need the information now but I would like to develop a picture of what is occurring. The minister knows that I am very interested in trying to find ways of tackling the problem of the kids who do not really want to attend school but have decided just to sit, there and make trouble. School counsellors are one resource in addressing that problem and I am seeking the information so that J can develop an understanding of how the system has functioned over a period of time and so that I can further develop my own ideas.

There appears to be an increase in the allocation for gbvernment assistance schemes, with an increased allocation to private schools. I ask the minister whether this results from the non-forwarding of money received from the federal government or whether it is actually an increase in funding from Territory sources.

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, I will start with the last issue. That may be a little confusing as it is presented in the budget pap~rs because it appears that funding to non-government schools is receiving a huge boost. I have mentioned already that $600 000 of the amount went to the mission schools. Kormilda College now has independent school status and an additional $700 000 has been included in this section of the budget to cover the normal grants and entitlements to Kormilda College. This must be seen against a decrease in funds of $1.6m in the secondary education sector of the budget, a decrease which has occurred because of the changed status of Kormilda. The amount provided to Kormilda will reduce over a period of years and eventually it will receive only the normal assistance provided to non-government schools. While the allocation to the non-government sector has increased, the increase represents a considerable saving to government, allowing more money to be utilised for government schools.

The $600 000 for assistance to mission schools has been included in the wrong section of the budget. It should appear under Preschool and Primary Education and, because it was inadvertently listed in the incorrect category of expenditure, the picture is somewhat distorted.

The honourable member spoke about objectives and aims. I indicate to him that we have the sorts of aims that he is talking about and targets that we hope will be reached. At this stage, I am not prepared to release them to him pub,l icly.

Mr Ede: What is the point of having them if you do not release them?

7585

D~PATF$ - Thursday 12 Octoher 19R9

Mr HARRIS: I can assure you that we are very much aware of where we are going and what we need to do to reach those objectives. I understand that the retention rate has surpassed 44%. I think it is up to 55% at this time, but I can have that natter checked.

As far as any reduction in staff is concerned, the formulas have remained the same. There is no change. Staffing is related to enrolments, as the honourable member would be aware, with the exception of special needs staff. We have not had any complaints in relation to the staffing of schools. They have been staffed according to formula. From time to time, conc~rns are raised when teachers leave during the school year, leaving some schools 11ithout teachers. In fact, I understand that the Nyirripi School is closed today, as a result of health problems among the teachers there. We will be looking at sending someone there to ensure that the school program continues. I repeat that any reductions in staffing are related purely to enrolments, except in the case of special needs staff.

Turning to the issue of school counsellors, I have some concerns about how some schools have utilised staffin9 formulas. It is necessary that there be adequate classroom staff to properly pursue the curriculum and, as I mentioned, 9uidelines will be issued to schools in the near future. It might mean that there will be a requirement for the schools to look at other methods of tackling problems and decide whether they will employ school counsellors. I aoree with the honourable membpr that there is a need to cater for the needs of ~kids who have behavioural problems. We have students with these problems, as do all the states. These matters really have to.be examined. Mr Chairman, I think that covers the matters raised by the member for Stuart.

Mr ~[1E: Mr Chairman, I really am amazed at the minister's attitude towards departmental objectives and failure criteria. The Minister for Lands and Housing displayed the same attitude yesterday and I had hoped that the Minister for Education would not do likewise. The Minister for Lands and Housing told me yesterday that he had all these things in place. He said that his department had a corporate plan, that I could have a briefing and that I could not see the plan. It seems rather amazing to me that any department would decide to prepare a plan,presumably to show the members of that department what it was trying to achieve, where they stood in relationship to each other and the overall direction, but decree at the s~me time that no one can look at the plan because it is secret.

~r Reed: He said that he would provide you with a copy but you were not here at that time.

Mr EOE: No, he did not.

Mr Reed: Yes, he did. You were not here at the time. He said he would provide you with a copy.

Mr CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr E[1E: In that case, I hooe the Minister for Education will follow the splendid example set by the Minister for Lands and Housing and provide me with a copy of his department's objectives. What is the point of having objectives and plans if you do not let people working in departments know what they are, and if you do not involve them in the process of determining criteria for success and failure? If people cannot know what the goals are, they cannot make a commitment to achieving them and the whole exercise is pointless. On the other hand, if departmental staff can see the plan, I do not see why I

7586


cannot. Perhaps the honourable minister is a bit embarrassed that he may not achieve particular aims and objectives. He may be a little worried that the public may start to open the box and realise that the objectives and aims the department has set itself are not being met. Democracy is all about people being able to see things like that. When the people in a department know that the public is watching their performance, their efforts are spurred on. r am sure that we will be discussing this matter further as the months roll by.

I now come to the reductions in the MSL from 1988-8~ to 1989-90. The honourable minister answered a substantial part of the question. If I understand him correctly, he is saying that. the reduction is basically enrolment related. In other words, if there is a 12% drop in the numbers of staff for senior secondary schools, that relates directly back to a 1?% drop in enrolments, with something additional for special needs staff. The minister says that the formula remains the same. Therefore, if the number of teachers is down, it must because the number of students is. down. Whilst there would be some adjustment across the system to make up whole numbers here and there, that would be a pretty fair account of what happens.

The minister said that there would be some adjustment for special needs staff. He did not answer, however, the other part of my question which asked about the categories these staff came from and whether they included teachers. I wondered whether the massive reduction included some people who were not teachers, including people who had previously been NTPS staff and had become school-employed staff, or whether there was some other explanation for a drop of something like 10% in the whole secondary education system.

Mr Harris: There is a private sector too.

Mr EDE: Are you saying that people are leaving the government system in those numbers and are going into the private sector?

Mr Harris: No.

Mr EDE: I am very interested in what is occurring because, on the face of it, it is quite strange.

The minister said that guidelines are to be issued in respect of student counsellors but he still has not said whether he is prepared to give me the numbers of school counsellors employed in various schools over the years. I do not expect him to have them available now, but I would like him to indicate that he will provide them to me. I was particularly interested in those figures because I am concerned about the situation of disinclined students.

I refer now to the specific program activities under the category of Northern Territory government assistance schemes. I thought that the $600 000, which should have been in assistance to missions, was part of the independent schools special subsidy, a particular subset of all the NTGAS programs which he read out to me. The successive figures for independent schools interest subsidies are $519 000, $lm and $1.3m. Interest subsidy receipts per capita are $3.5m, $4.1m and $4.9m. Interest schools capital subsidy amounts are zero, $343 000 and $438 000. What I am saying is that the big increases in that group relate to independent schools and I was asking the minister whether any of that money is federal money which we are receiving and passing on to private schools. The overall increase is from about $4m in 1987-88 to $5.6m in 1988-89 and to over $7m for 1989-90. It is a very sharp gradient.

7587

DEBATES - Thursday 12 Octoher 1989

Mr CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable member's time has expired.

~r HARRIS: t~r Chairman, as I have already mentioned, staffing is related directly to student enrolments. Our population is ageing. Enrolments in some areas are falling and that is a fact of life. In addition, the independent schools are taking more and more students. That is happening because people are not satisfied with what is happening, in spite of the fact, as I constantly tell them, that government schools in the Northern Territory are very good. The facilities and equipment are good, as is everything we provide in our ~chools. The independent schools have no chance of having ~nything like the facilities which the government schools have. All I can say to the honourable member is that the formulas are the same. They are very good formulas and there. have been no complaints. ~/e have been able to staff all our schools according to the formulas and we will continue to do that. Special needs staff are in addition to formula staff. Some schools have special education programs and extra teachers are provided to satisfy the requirements of those schools. Mr Chairman, I believe that answers the Question.

There has been a substantial increase in the number of independent schools and boarding accommodation. I am talking about schools like O'Loughlin Colleqe, St Phillips. the Palmerston Christian School. the Berrimah Catholic School and so on. I wish the Darwin International Grammar School had been able to commence operations. We want our bush kids to be educated here in the Northern Territory. We will continue to work strongly towards having an international private school here. Such a facility.is very important. Our children should be able to have their entire education in the Northern Territory. If that costs us dollars. so be it. We have a program which supports the private sector. As I have mentioned on many occasions. our figure is about 16% or 18% as compared with the 25% which is offered in the other states. We will continue to support the private sector.

Mr Chairman. I am concerned by the comments made earlier by the member for ~'anguri. I sought an explanation from the Chairman of the Board of Studies. Whilst I am not privy to the marking process. I expect a report on marking at about the end of this month. The Chairman of the Board of Studies. Dr Payne. is disturbed by the statements made by the member for VJanguri and. if the information presented by the honourable member is correct - and I am not doubting that is the case - it can only have come from those responsible for marking. If so. the honourable member's informant is guilty of a criminal offence. All persons involved in the marking process were required to sign a guarantee reouiring them to keep the res~lts confidential and I will be seeking an explanation from the member for Wanguri. If there has been a breach of confidentiality. I will have to seek a police investi0ation of the matter. I sought a police investigation of previous allegations in relation to the Year 10 exams and I will be tabling that police report during the course of the sittings.


Pppropriation for division 36:

~r SMITH: Can the honourable minister advise on the recorded sets of objectives for the department and the established method of measuring achievement or failure of individual programs against those objectives? Can the honourable minister provide a status report on each community education centre promised in previous budgets with particular reference to building construction, staffing and curriculum development? Can the honourable

7588


minister advise on the effect, if any, on courses and programs at Katherine Rural College, of the substantial funding cuts this year? What were the student numbers in full-time equivalents in 1988 and what are the expected numbers for 1989? Can the honourable minister detail the moves set in place to establish the Board of Batchelor College to replace the interim board? Finally, can the honourable minister detail expenditure put in place in 1989-90 and projected expenditure to establish a TAFE college at Palmerston?

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, as far as goals and objectives are concerned, suppose we will have the same problem that we had with the last division. The TAFE Advisory Council, or TAFEAC, which advises the minister on all matters relating to TAFE, including annual, recurrent and capital funding, the conduct of training activities for industry and training of Aboriginals for employment, approved a set of aims and objectives for TAFE in the Territory at its September 1989 meeting. Achievement of the objectives set by TAFEAC is indicated by measurement against criteria set out in the Northern Territory Commonwealth Agreement; that is, increases or decreases in enrolments and student contact hours. Other criteria relate to use of computer management packages, increase in fee-for-service activities, industry involvement and entrepreneurial activities. The Tertiary Education Unit of the TAFE Division of the Department of Education will finalise resource agreements with Northern Territory TAFE colleges in early November 1989. A key component of the agreement will be the inclusion of items against which efficiency and effectiveness in TAFE can be measured. Performance indicators relevant to the mission statements of individual colleges and the NT TAFE Division will be included. Further performance indicators will be decided at a meeting of the Joint Committee on TAFE Statistics, a subcommittee of the Australian Committee of TAFE directors, on 31 October 1989. It is expected that these performance indicators will be the same throughout the TAFE system within Australia. As I mentioned in relation to the resource agreements, we have to provide information to the Commonwealth which indicates clearly that we are attaining the objectives and moving in an appropriate direction. There is riqorous evaluation in a whole range of areas, including skills testing, to ensure that we are making progress towards our goals.

'1r Chairman, the second question requested a status report on each community education centre promised in previous budgets with particular reference to building construction, staff and curriculum development. I will deal with building construction first. The following list details community education centre buildings constructed, partially constructed or where constructi on is to commence or fundi nf! is to. be sought. It i ric 1 udes other vocational training facilities on communities which are not yet part of the full community education centre program. The post-primary centre at Willowra was funded by the Northern Territory government in 1987-88. Another 4 post primary centres at Ngukurr, Peppimenarti, Lake Nash and Yarralin were funded by DEET and completed in 1988. As far as community education centres are concerned, Milikapiti, Galiwinku and Dagaragu have been completed. Centres at Numbulwar and Oenpelli are under construction. Construction is to commence at Borroloola and Jabiru late in 1989. For Yuendumu and Maningrida, DEET funding was sought for 1990. DEET funding was sought for 1990-91 for the following 4 communities: Ali Curung, Belyuen, Lajamanu and Gapuwiyak.

The following staff are generated as a result of the further education component of CECs: Angurugu - 2 Band 1, 1 Band 2 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 3 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant; Milingimbi - 2 Band 1, 1 Band 2 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 3 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 4 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant;

7589


Shepherdson - ? Band 1, 1 Band 2 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 3 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 4 principal upgraded to Band 4 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant; Yirrkala - 2 Band 1, 1 Band 2 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 3 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 4 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant; Yuendumu - 2 Band 1, 1 Band 2 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 4 principal upgraded to Band 4 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant; Maningrida - ? Band 1, 1 Band 2 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 3 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 4 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant; Barunga - 2 Band 1, 1 Band 2 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 3 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant; Borroloola - 2 Band 1, 1 Band 2 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 3 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant; Willowra, which was new in 1990 - 1 Band 1, 1 Band 3 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant; Oenpelli, also new in 1990 - 2 Band 1, 1 Band 2 secondary TAFE, 1 Rand 3 secondary TAFE, 1 Band 4 secondary TAFE, 1 adult educator, 1 adult education assistant.

Curriculum development in all 4 certificates - General Studies, Basic Secondary Studies, Foundation Studies and Vocational Studies - is proceeding with material trialed at Maningrida or Nguiu. This is being done with the close cooperation of TAFE and the Schools Division. Each of the certificates has to relate to employment and/or further study - that is, TAFE secondary or tertiary - and can be completed in about half of the time available to school-aged students. Elective units can comprise interest and/or recreational awareness, advanced skills and/or knowledge. There is a choice of modules offered in all subjects apart from English and maths.

The status of curriculum development for each of the certificates is as follows. In the foundation studies area - that is, remedial or bridging - language and mathematics courses have been completed and are being trialed. The environmental studies components of SACE and science are being written. The Aboriginal studies outlines are completed and are ready for consideration by the Maningrida Community Education Centre and also the staff. A range of elective modules have been selected.

In General studies, language and mathematics, content has been selected and work is in progress to prepare units for TAFEAC accreditation. An environmental studies science unit has been completed and a SACE unit is being written. Aboriginal studies and electives are as for the foundation studies. The vocational studies, English, mathematics, core studies and the 5 vocational strands are completed. Those strands are office practices, vehicle maintenance, welding, carpentry and jOining, and plumbing. A range of elective units has been developed. A secondary studies framework for language and mathematics has been written and work is in progress for TAFEAC accreditation. The SACE course and science course are completed. Aboriginal studies course outlines are completed and are ready for consideration by the community education centres themselves and also the staff.

Outstanding tasks include refinement of completed units based on feedback from trialing and curriculum personnel and preparation of documents for TAFEAC accreditation on completion of these courses in progress. It is anticipated that all 4 certificates will receive full TAFE accreditation before December 1989.

The next question related to the any effects on courses and programs at Katherine Rural College of the substantial funding cuts this year. The honourable member also asked me for the actual student numbers and full-time equivalents for 1988 and those expected for 1989.

7590


Mr Ede: If you could just give me the student numbers for 1988 and 1989, have the rest.

Mr HARRIS: The reason for the reduction is that, in 1988-89, there was a major one-off repairs and maintenance project. It was a once-only expenditure of $?18 296 on vehicle and plant replacement. There was also capital works expenditure of some $58 000. These works have been completed and the expenditure will therefore not be repeated in 1989-90. The expenditure in 1989-90 is expected to be reduced by some $15 000 reflecting an expected reduction in income from other revenue sources. Discussions are currently occurring in an attempt to restore this outside revenue to previous levels, thereby allo\<Jing an increase in budget expenditure. I refer to the sale of produce and other revenue sources. Notwithstanding these cuts, the college budget wi 11 benefit fromi ncrpases in the budgetary category of repa irs and maintenance. The allocation for this will increase $98 000 over the 1988-89 figure of $292 000 to $390000.

A request has been made for student numbers. The statistics that I will provide are in full-time equivalents. It is necessary to note that the national convention in TAFE is that a full-time student is defined as a person studying a course of 540 hours duration within any given academic year. By the same definition, a part-time student will study for less than the 540 hours in a given year.

At Katherine Rural College the situation is as follows: in 1988, there were 101 full-time students. The number of part-time students is not recorded in the TAFE Easy Data for 1988, but it is believed to be in the sal~e order as the 1989 figure. The information could be obtained from manual records. In 1989 - and the source is the Katherine Rural Colleqe - as at 10 October, there were 112 full-time students. There were 270 part-time students, giving a total of 382.

On these figures, it is clear that the college has managed a modest increase in full-time student numbers in the order of 11% in the current year when compared to last year. It may appear to be rather hiqh but we are talking about effective full-time student units. I am sure that the honourable member does not want me to compare it with the Northern Territory University.

Mr Ede: They are not comparable.

Mr HARRIS: The next question related to the moves to establish a board at Batchelor College to replace the interim board. Batchelor College became a semi-autonomous institution on 1 July 1989 with a governing council chaired by the former Administrator, Commodore Eric Johnston. The Education Act enables the Minister for Education to appoint the council which is broadly represented by the community served by the college.

To date, the minister has appointed the following persons: Commodore E. Johnston, Chairman; Mr D. Hawkes, Secretary, Department of Labour and Administrative Services; Mr W. Baird, Chairman of FEPPI; Mr C. McCartney, Secretary of the Barunga Community; Mr H. Wilson, President of Peppimenarti Community Council; Mr G. Ramsay, Institute of Aboriginal Health, Katherine; Miss Malbunka of the Ipolera Community; Miss Tipiloura, adult education, Bathurst Island; Mr <1. Joshua, Ngukurr Community; and Miss Kath Phelan, Assistant Secretary, TAFE. There is also a staff representative, Ms Box-McConachy, and a student representative is Mr Gaykamangu. This council is ready to meet.

7591


There are 3 positions that I am holding open. People will appointed to these positions at a later stage after I have visited the communities from which they are to come. The reason that it has taken so long is that I want to ensure that I am right the first time and that I select people who are able to attend meetings. We have had to notify the people from different communities to ensure that they are willing to serve on the Batchelor College Council. Those people have now accepted nomination and been approved for membership of the council. I am also writing to Commodore Eric Johnston, the council chairman, to advise him of a set of guidelines which he will pass on to the Batchelor College Council so that it will work in the manner it is supposed to work.

The next question related to details of 1989-90 expenditure and projected expenditure to establish a TAFE college at Palmerston. $lm has been set aside in the 1989-90 Capital Works Program. The Department of Transport and Works cash allocation is $lm. Commitment in 1990-91 and beyond will be determined by total cost and the Department of Transport and Works cash flow needs. The total cost is not yet determined, as only preliminary site design has occurred and no building design has occurred as yet. Approval of the full scope of the project will be sought from Cabinet in March or April 1990, with a view to its listing on the 1990-91 Capital Works Program.

Mr ED~: There probably is not a great deal to be gained by going over again the question of departmental objectives and the method of evaluating the success or failure of individual programs, except to repeat that. in some of the areas just covered by the minister in respect of TAFE, evaluation is probably easier than in some areas in education generally.

I did not hear the minister make any comment about how students in community education centres can obtain the JSSC.

Mr Harris: I did not mention it. That is why you did not hear it.

Mr EDE: If those centres are not going to lead people down a dead-end track, they have to offer JSSC so that people can move on to Years 11 and 12, university study and so forth. Whilst the opposition accepts that many people in the bush or in urban areas may not wish to re-enter the formal system and may simply wish to gain skills which are relevant to their own communities, they must also have the opportunity to link with the formal system. People in Aboriginal communities used to have the opportunity to gain JSSC at Kormilda and the community education centres must provide people in the bush with the same opportunities which are available in towns. We have compulsory education to Year 10 and the opportunities provided should be the same in both bush and urban areas.

Whilst there should certainly be some alternatives outside the core curriculum and even within them - such as dance, art and so forth - it is vital that the basic standards of education in mathematics, English and reading skills be maintained so that people have the ability to enter the senior secondary colleges. That is essential.

It appears that, at last, the Willowra centre is to be staffed. The minister opened it last year and, at that time, he commented to me: 'The way the federal government funds these buildings without letting us know is terrible'. However, in the answer just given by the minister, he said that the centre was funded by the NT in 1987-88. He did not realise that he had built a school.

7592


Mr Harris: Come on!

Mr EDE: You did not know that you had built it. You thought that it had been built by the federal government and you therefore had no staffing program in place.

Mr Harris: They got a big plus then, didn't they?

Mr EDE: The minister's own department had funded the centre and built it, but nobody thought of staffi ng it. It wi 11 be 1990 before it gets any staff.

r1r Harris: It sounds like the yellow submarine at Gapuwiyak.

Mr EDE: The situation is even worse at Lake Nash, where another centre will stand empty for another year because no allocation has been made for staff. It is amazing. The buildings are erected and they sit there empty. Sooner or later, someone throws a rock or somebody decides that, if no one else is interested in these buildings, the kids might as well play in them. Then the uproar starts: 'Kids vandalise school'.

We should not erect these buil'dings and let them stand empty. I remember the situation with the health clinic at Docker River. It was left vacant for quite some time and, when some kids broke in and did some damage, the story was allover the newspapers. The communities at Lake Nash and Wi 1 lowra have kept the buildings in pristine condition, but it cannot be guaranteed that that will continue. The minister should ensure that, when centres are built, they are not left without staff for years. I cannot understand that; it is ridiculous.

I cannot understand how the decisions have been made in relation to the Batchelor College Council. What is happening is exactly what I said would happen. When the college council legislation was enacted, I said that there would be insufficient time to set the council and the programs into place. However, salary levels are being set, positions are being advertised, negntiations are taking place with staff. Who is doing this? It is certainly not the council, because it has not met. It cannot have delegated these functions to Mr Hawkes, Ms Phelan and the principal, who appear to have been acting as some sort of interim board. I would like the minister to advise me whether or not the activities carried out since 1 July 1989, which are properly the province of the board, are unlawful because the board does not exist as such.

Before I sit down, I will place on record my thanks to the honourable minister for the assistance he has given for the last 3 hours and 20 minutes in providing me with the details which I requested.

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, I thank the honourable member for those kind words. I will give him some stick in a minute.

In talking about evaluation, we did not mention industry itself. It demands certain standards and levels, and that is a very important factor. However, I note the honourable member's comments in relation to objectives and goals. We do have aims and I am not prepared to

Mr Ede: Because they are secret.

Mr HARRIS: I am not prepared to give them to you and, at this stage, I am staying put.

7593

I l


The member for Stuart spoke about the Junior Secondary Studies Certificate and how people studying in community education centres should have access to the formal education system. He would be aware that the courses taught at those centres are TAFE courses. They will be accredited and nationally registered and that will achieve access to the formal system. I must say that the member for Stuart is dreaming if he believes that large numbers of students in those areas are at a level which would allow them to pursue the Junior Secondary Studies Certificate at this stage. Students have to reach upper primary level before secondary education can be attempted. We will be pursuing that. The honourable member would be aware that I am in the process of carrying out an extensive review of Aboriginal education. He might go crook about the review and say that it is not worth anything ..•

Mr Ede: It is not. It is a joke.

Mr HARRIS: I can assure him that it is not a joke. He has not attended the meetings which I have attended and I can assure him

Mr Smith: I have heard about your meetings.

Mr HARRIS: You might have heard about them. I do not know what you have heard but, at some stage when we debate the issue, I would like to hear about it. These meetings are very important. They give me the chance to hear people's concerns at first hand and members opposite should be ashamed of themselves because they do not have their act together sufficiently to go to the communities and try to help people.

Mr Ede: What are you talking about? What a lot of garbage.

Mr HARRIS: All you do is get up here and say that they should have this and that and do this and that. You do not look at the reality of the situation. Mr Chairman, at the end of my review, I can assure you that I will be moving to make certain changes in relation to Aboriginal education. The federal minister is also aware of the review that is in progress.

The major reason for the shortage of staff at Willowra was the reduction in NT funding in 1987-88. I made that clear at the time. The change in that situation is a big plus. I have spoken with John Dawkins, the federal minister, and we have agreed on the need to ensure that facilities which are built are able to be staffed. We have come to an agreement on that. I am pleased that Mr Dawkins has seen the light and that we will now see greater cooperation between the Commonwealth government and the Northern Territory government.

As far as Batchelor is concerned

Mr Ede: What about Lake Nash?

Mr HARRIS: Lake Nash, Mr Chairman? I think I am due to go out there in the next month or so ••.

Mr Ede: Hhen are you going to give them some staff?

Mr HARRIS: ..• and when r have had a look at the scene out there, r will be looking further into that matter.

Mr Smith: Why do you have staff? What is your whole department for if you have to go there first?

7594


Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition has just come back in. That is all right. The member for Stuart and myself have been here for 3 hours and 30 minutes. He .has been listening to my explanations and I am sure that he understands what I am saying. Obviously, the Leader of the Opposition does not.

Mr Chairman, if the honourable member wants me to go into detail concerning Batchelor College, I am happy to do so. The subject warrants a reasonable amount of time and it would be better to deal with it at a later stage.

Mr BELL: Mr Chairman, there are a couple of issues that I want to raise in relation to this subdivision. I was put in mind of them by the outburst from the Minister for Education, who rounded on my colleague and, in what I thought were rather intemperate terms, denounced him for not visiting bush communities to find out what they really want. I suppose feels that he visits bush communities assiduously to do that. Indeed, when the minister first assumed the portfolio, I accompanied him on some visits. I have not done so recently because I have not been invited. I must have committed some act ...

Mr Harris: I still have a photo of you digging the plane out of the bog.

Mr BELL: That is absolutely right, Mr Chairman. Perhaps the one and only time that I travelled with the minister, the plane was bogged on the Kintore airstrip. He may have felt that I was bad luck.

Mr Chairman, I know it is late, but I thought the minister's sanctimonious outburst deserved comment, particularly given the absurd article in the Bulletin which mentioned that the Minister for Education had been visiting the bush communities and studiously sitting down on the ground and listening to the people. There was only one problem with the article. As far as the problems were concerned, it contained no answers, absolutely none. I would have passed it over if it had not been for the sanctimonious outburst that we jus; had from the minister.

The questions I want to put to the minister relate, firstly, to the question of qualified teachers, secondly, to Yirara College and, thirdly, to the fate of bilingual education. I will say now that I believe that anybody who considers himself expert enough to comment on educational matters should first state his experience. Most honourable members know of my background and experience so I will not labour the point. I am, however, quite happy to fill in anybody who has any doubts about it. Being a maths teacher, having taught in Aboriginal schools, and having had my own kids in Territory primary and high schools as well as private schools in Melbourne - and let me tell you, Mr Chairman, that having your kids in private school and being a member of the Labor Party is no joke ...

Mr Coulter: Especially, at Geelong Grammar.

Mr Harris: No, Melbourne Grammar.

Mr BELL: I will not waste time on that, but I can certainly itemise the Territory schools they have attended: Areyonga Primary School, Traeger Park Primary School, Ross Park Primary school, Alice Springs High School and Anzac Hill High School.

Mr Coulter: A transient family, by the sound of it.

7595

DEBATES - Thursday 1( October 1989

Mr BELL: I come to the debate with some knowledge of what I am talking about. Let me start with the question of qualified teachers. Mr Chairman, I am horrified at the extent of the presence in Territory high schools and possibly the Territory education system •..

Mr HARRIS: A point of order, Mr Chairman! We are dealing with division 36. We have already dealt with division 35, which related to the Department of Education. I wish the honourable member had been here during discussion of that division because I would have liked to have had his input.

Mr CHAIRMAN: There is a point of order. The member will speak to division 36, which relates to TAFE.

Mr BELL: I will just do it briefly. There was a question on notice about qualified teachers. Some 80% of our maths teachers are unqualified. I came into state secondary education when many teachers in Victorian high schools were unqualified. At that stage, if the department pushed an unqualified teacher on a school, that was it. After about 6 months of schools closing whenever that occurred, the situation was quickly rectified. If the minister is talking about TAFE, I know it happens in that area too. Mr Chairman, can you imagine the hullabaloo there would be if we had unqualified doctors, radiographers or electricians.

Mr Collins: Legally, you cannot have an unqualified electrician.

Mr BELL: That is absolutely right. I would pick up the interjection from the member for Sadadeen. You cannot have an unqualified electrician legally.

As far as I am concerned, I am horrified at the general lack of interest in the fact that (0% of our high school maths teachers are qualified, and that was only one sample.

I do not expect the minister to pick this up but I will point out to him and the officers of his department who pay attention to these comments that Yirara College is •.•

Mr HARRIS: A point of order, Mr Chairman! I have been very lenient. I have listened and I have taken on board the comments of the honourable member. However, we have already covered the matters which he has referred to and we are debating division 36.

Mr CHAIRMAN: The point of order is valid. As I have pointed out to the honourable member, division 36 relates to TAFE and Yirara is not relevant.

Mr BELL: I simply record my concerns in those 2 areas and I advise the minister that I will be taking them up with him in due course.

Mr HARRIS: Mr Chairman, there is one point that I would like to make to the member for Stuart. Lake Nash and Yarralin are in line to be staffed as post-primary centres. They are allocated in priority for adult education for new positions in 1989-90. Positions are being allocated over a period of time and money is set aside for positions at Lake Nash.



7596


Mr BELL: Mr Chairman, at the outset, I thank the Minister for Health and Community Services for his preparedness to consider these areas of the health budget section by section. The first series of questions relates to the mental health services program. Given the real increase in funds allocated to the program, what is the total package paid to the Director of Mental Health Services, Dr Ridley? How much has been allocated to Ward 9 at the Royal Darwin Hospital to enable the unit to cope with the increasing needs of dangerous and behaviourally-disordered psychiatric patients? How many new staff positions are to be created? What will be the capital cost of either relocating or expanding the unit? Of the 19 new staff to be allocated across a range of programs, how many will be located in mental services, at what level are each of the positions and in exactly which service will each one be based? How much is to be allocated towards the expansion of the mobile remote areas psychiatric team, what position designations will be involved, where will the staff be based and in which area will they serve? How many staff have been allocated to the Tennant Creek Hospital to assist in coping with behaviourally-disordered patients? Finally, how much has been allocated for the establishment of an assessment team in Alice Springs as promised during the 1987 election campaign?

Mr HATTON: Mr Chairman, I must advise that, by agreement, we will be dealing with a series of questions from the honourable member in allocated sections and ..•

Mr BELL: Do I only get 2 goes? We have come to a private arrangement. Are you happy to go through these sections?

Mr HATTON: Would you rather do the whole lot in one go?

Mr CHAIRMAN: Honourable member for MacDonnell, I should point out that you cannot come to a separate agreement outside sessional orders in relation to the speaking rules of 10 minutes and 2 questions. I can understand the way in which you are trying to handle these affairs. Perhaps you could put your questions directly to the minister at this point and he will try to deal with them in the manner in which you have suggested.

Mr BELL: I turn to Aboriginal health services. Given that there is no specific allocation for Aboriginal health programs in the budget, how much has been allocated for the Aboriginal AIDS program, what new positions have been created, at what designations and in which sub-program are they to be located? How much is to be allocated to a TB prevention program, what new staffing positions will be created, where will they be based and what designation will they have? How much has been allocated to the Aboriginal health worker program, how many new trainees will commence training, how many new health worker positions have been created and where will they be based? I remind the honourable minister that I have placed that question on notice. What steps are to be taken on preventing further outbreaks of meningitis and how much will this involve?

Given the real reduction in hospital expenditure throughout the Northern Territory, can the minister explain what services have been cut and which will be affected? Specifically, how much will be saved by reducing the operating theatre capacity at Royal Darwin Hospital? Which specialist clinics do not exist at Royal Darwin Hospital for public patients and which are provided only by visiting specialists? Given the demand for child care at Royal Darwin Hospital, how much has been allocated for the establishment of a child-care centre? What arrangements are being made to establish accommodation for parents from remote areas whose children are in hospital and how much has been allocated for this purpose?

7597


Given the remoteness of the Northern Territory and the need to maintain an up-to-date medical and nursing service, how much has been allocated for the purposes of in-service and external training for each professional group? What community-based initiatives have been established for after-care facilities and at what cost? How much of the $1.7m announced by the previous Minister for Health and Community Services to re-equip the Royal Darwin Hospital radiology facility is capital cost, how much is maintenance and what is the cost of the maintenance contract with Toshiba? What are the staffing levels in the Radiography Department of the Royal Darwin Hospital and how does this compare with last financial year?

Given the increase in funding for drug and alcohol services, how much has been allocated for the establishment of new sobering-up shelters. With the new provisions in the Misuse of Drugs Bill for drug dependent persons, what amount of additional funds will be allocated to services to ensure a comprehensive assessment service will be possible?

In relation to the Patients Assistance Travel Scheme, can the minister provide details on the type of services provided under this scheme and how much has been allocated to it? Given that this scheme is not available for those wishing to participate in the IVF scheme interstate, how much has been allocated for the purposes of the IVF program, when will it be allocated and for what purposes?

I might mention in passing that there has been considerable concern about PATS. I suspect that, as is often the case in these matters, there is more to the situation than simply a change in name. When the scheme was transferred from the Commonwealth to the Territory, its name was changed from the Isolated Patients Travel Accommodation Assistance Scheme, or IPTAAS, to PATS. We lost the adjective 'isolated'. By the stroke of a pen, people who became ill in the Territory immediately stopped being isolated, at least in terms of government policy. That, of course, was absurd. I would like to hear some general statement about the policy in respect of people who, for one reason or another, are not necessarily able to avail themselves of the services of visiting specialists. I am receiving a level of representations about PATS which I never received about IPTAAS.

Given the increased allocation for disability services, can the minister explain how much has been allocated to the seat clinic at the Royal Darwin Hospital and what is the level of increase on last year's allocation? How many additional staff are to be appointed and by how much will the waiting times for patients be reduced? How much has been allocated for the purposes of repatriating a group of intellectually-disabled persons placed in South Australian institutions? How many people will be repatriated this year, where will they be accommodated and what will be the cost of travel and accommodation arrangements?

Under the heading of disability services, I also want to draw the minister's attention to concerns of the Alice Springs Regional Branch of ACROD, the national peak body representing both individuals with disabilities and organisations providing services to people with disabilities. I point out to the minister that the Northern Territory government recently sought public comment on a draft of a disability services policy. I understand that there is concern about obtaining copies of the final draft policy. I want an undertaking from the minister that that final draft policy will be available.

In his budget statement, the Chief Minister indicated that 14 extra staff will strengthen child and family services. Given that the Children's Services

7598


Bureau is within this area, how many extra staff have been allocated to the bureau to enable it to assist community child-care centres in their daily operations, which can include the selection of suitable staff? I am sure the reference in that question will not be lost on the Minister for Health and Community Services. He will recall the recent concern about the recruiting of staff to child-care centres and the considerable publicity that surrounded it.

Given the previous minister's commitment to expanding child protection services, why has the Darwin region been told to reduce its staffing level by 73 and, in particular, to reduce staffing in the welfare program by 5? What specific programs will be reduced, how many positions will be lost and how does the department plan to provide an effective service with reduced resources?

Given that there is no separate budget allocation or policy for women's health programs, can the minister provide details on its priority funding allocation for women's health programs? How much has been allocated to establish sexual assault services for women throughout the NT? Specifically, how many staff, and at what designation, are to be located in each regional unit and, secondly, how much has been allocated to community agencies such as the Ruby-Gaea Darwin Centre Against Rape?

Finally, can the minister provide details of the names of community-based organisations which had not received approval for their 1988-89 budgets from his department by the end of the 1987-88 financial year? I have been receiving representations from people who have been concerned about the tardy approval of budgets for community-based, grant-in-aid organisations. The minister may be aware that the Katherine Women's Crisis Centre has been the subject of considerable debate in the past. Will the minister table a copy ...


Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, I draw attention to the state of the House.

Mr CHAIRMAN: A quorum is not present. Ring the bells.

Bells rung.

Mr CHAIRMAN: A quorum is now present. The honourable minister.

Mr HATTON: Mr Chairman, the member for MacDonnell has raised a number of questions and I will try to deal with them in blocks.

He raised a series of questions about mental health services. The allocation for mental health services is $5.9m which represents a 10% growth on the 1988-89 year. Within a period of 3 years, mental health services have grown from small services provided at the Alice Springs and Royal Darwin Hospitals to an integrated network ,throughout all regions. Specialist inpatient and outpatient wards are provided in Alice Springs and Darwin, outpatient clinics are held in most urban community health centres, outreach services are provided to remote communities in all regions and specialist services are provided for children and their families. Day centres, which provide valuable service to patients and respite for their families, are located in Alice Springs and Darwin. There is no doubt that mental health services initiatives have been a great success story and that is a great credit to the very dedicated staff involved in the delivery of services.

7599


Notwithstanding the successes that have been achieved, we acknowledge that there is a great deal more to be done over the next few years. Future challenges include the creation of a Mental Health and Preventive Education Promotion Unit, a unit that can assist Territorians to make choices about improving their mental health. In that respect, I note that next week is Mental Health Week. During the week, departmental staff will be involved in a significant promotional campaign and I am pleased to advise that the Northern Territory has developed what is being recognised around Australia as the most comprehensive Mental Health Week program in Australia. It is part of an ongoing program to promote mental health and is distinct from discussion of the concepts of mental illness. Another challenge is to provide the correct mix of treatment facilities - for example, a new security ward, an acute admission facility and a range of community accommodation options. Developing community-based services of excellence also remains a priority.

This financial year, however, is a year of consolidation and planning for mental health services although additional staff will enable improved quality care in wards at the Royal Darwin Hospital and support for clinical staff. A high-quality psychological testing laboratory will also be completed this year. The testing laboratory will be designed for the special needs of clinical teams in the Northern Territory and will be equal to any in Australia. In discussions that I have had with the department, we have started work on developing an ongoing strategic plan for the development of a whole range of mental and disability services.

I turn specifically to the questions asked. What is the total package outlay paid to the Director of Mental Health Services? I am sure the member for MacDonnell understands that it is not appropriate to publish the personal incomes of individual public service employees.

How much has been allocated to Ward 9 at Royal Darwin Hospital to enable the unit to cope with the increasing needs of dangerous and behaviourally-disordered psychiatric patients? How many new staff positions are to be created and what will be the capital costs involved in either relocating or expanding the unit? In 1989-90, $65 000 has been allocated to improve courtyard facilities and upgrade the kitchen and electrical circuits of Ward 9. Four new senior nursing positions have been created and will service not only Ward 9 but also the Cowdy Ward and the Psychiatric Rehabilitation Ward as required. It is estimated that the capital cost to expand Ward 9 from 7 to 14 beds would be in the order of $650 000 and operational costs have not yet been determined in association with that.

As I mentioned, the Mental Health Services Branch has been requested to prepare a submission detailing future mental health needs. Programs for expansion and other services and facilities that will need to be provided in the future will be planned in that process. We are working towards a program for full integration and development of services throughout the Territory rather than picking off the problem areas bit by bit. That will be completed this year. As soon as it is available, I will be happy to make the information available to honourable members.

Of the 19 new staff to be allocated across a range of programs, how many will be located in mental services, at what level is each of the positions and in exactly which service will each one be based? As I mentioned, 5 positions are to be based in mental health services. The levels of the positions are: 1 Registered Nurse, level 4.1; 3 Registered Nurses, level 3A; and 1 administrative A4. The nursing positions are to be based in Darwin Region Mental Health Services and will provide supervision and support to Ward 9,

7600


Cowdy Ward and the Psychiatric Rehabilitation Ward. The administrative position is assigned as support staff to the Northern Territory Mental Health Services executive.

How much is to be allocated towards the expansion of the mobile remote areas psychiatric team, what position designations will be involved, where will the staff be based and which areas will they service? Remote area services are currently provided in East Arnhem, Alice Springs and the Darwin region. East Arnhem services are provided by a community psychiatric nurse operating from Gove. Darwin region services are provided by a community psychiatric nurse and an Aboriginal mental health consultant operating from Darwin. Alice Springs services are provided by a community psychiatric nurse supported by a psychologist operating from Alice Springs.

How many staff have been allocated to the Tennant Creek Hospital to assist in coping with behaviourally-disordered patients? There is a registered community psychiatric nurse based at Tennant Creek Hospital campus whose job, among other duties, is to assist medical officers with the assessing of patients referred with behavioural problems to Tennant Creek Hospital. He also contributes to management planning in respect of such patients and liaises with senior psychiatric or other mental health staff in Alice Springs as required. Mental health staff from Alice Springs make regular visits to Tennant Creek Hospital. The small number of chronically behaviourally-disordered patients who are present at Tennant Creek Hospital does not justify the allocation of further staff.

How much has been allocated for the establishment of an assessment team in Alice Springs as promised during the 1987 election campaign? Under the approved new initiatives for 1987-88, approval was given for the establishment of a psychiatric assessment team in Alice Springs comprising 5 staff, including a psychiatric registrar, a senior psychologist, 2 nursing sisters and an occupational therapist.

I move on to Aboriginal health services. How much has been allocated for the Aboriginal AIDS program, what new positions have been created and at what designation and in which sub-program are they to be located? In conjunction with the Commonwealth, there has been a 60% increase in funding for the Aboriginal AIDS program. In 1989-90, some $620 000 has been allocated, with the Northern Territory contributing a significant share of $395 000. Mr Chairman, 4 additional positions have been provided in new policy initiatives for the expansion of AIDS prevention and awareness programs. I also understand that 2 more fully Commonwealth-funded positions will be recruited this year. Staff share the work across all Aboriginal programs which service Aboriginal people resident in Aboriginal communities, fringe camps and hostels, as well as community leaders, community-based health care professionals, schoolteachers, adult educators, youth and schoolchildren. Non-Aboriginal people resident in Aboriginal communities are also provided for.

There are 13 positions totally dedicated to Aboriginal AIDS programs in 1989-90. These consist of 10 Aboriginal educators at A5 level comprised of 5 teams each of 1 male and 1 female. There is 1 team in each of th'e East Arnhem, Darwin and Katherine regions and there are 2 teams in the southern region - 1 for communities relating to Alice Springs and 1 for communities relating to Tennant Creek. There is a coordinator for the Territory at E1 level and 2 A7 trainer facilitators who cover the Territory as a team consisting of 1 male and 1 female. In addition, a portion of 3 other communicable diseases positions are devoted to AIDS prevention in Aboriginal

7601


communi ti es. In his second- readi ng speech, the honourable member referred to Com~onwealth funding for AIDS of $679 000 which he alleges the Northern Territory is refusing to match. I am referring to total AIDS funding now ...

Mr Bell: That was not what I said, Steve. I did not say 'refused to match' . What I said was that you could not identify where those funds were expended in the budget.

Mr HATTON: The figure included in the Commonwealth budget White Paper is incorrect. The offer to the Territory is $450 000 and that is for the total AIDS program. The member can rest assured that not only has this sum been matched, but also that the Territory is allocating significantly in excess of the matching requirement for this important program. The Territory expenditure is more than twice that of the Commonwealth. This level puts the Territory at a higher per capita level than any state.

How much is allocated to the TB prevention program, what new staffing positions will be created, where will they be based and what designations will they be? The cost of TB prevention programs are not specifically identified in the budget. They are incorporated in the communicable disease program of some $2.6m. Recent appointments in relation to positions associated with TB preventi on, however, include a full-time Di rector of the Communi cab 1 e Diseases Centre in Oarwin, appointed in May 1989. This position includes supervising TB control for the Territory. 1 TB sister was appointed for the CDC in Darwin in February 1989 and 1 TB sister ~Jas appointed in Katherine in June 1989. The position of Director of Rural Services in Katherine, an area of relatively high TB incidence, was filled in 'August 1989. A medical specialist experienced in TB control in Papua New Guinea and among American Indians was appointed on a part-time basis in August 1989.

How much has been allocated to the Aboriginal Health Worker Program? How many new trainees will commence training? How many new health worker positions have been created and where will they be based? It is difficult to determine what the honourable member means when he refers to the Aboriginal He~lth Worker Program. If he is referring to the payment to Aboriginal health workers employed by the department, the amount would be in the order of $3.2m. This does not include subsidies paid to the community organisations employing Aboriginal health workers. The cost of delivering Aboriginal health worker training in 1989-90 is $I.5m, including funds allocated to Batchelor College, which will assume responsibility for training in 1990 and is involved in a pilot curriculum development project in conjunction with the Commonwealth. The total costs, accordingly, are in the order of $5m.

What steps are to be taken in preventing further outbreaks of meningitis and how much will this involve? I am not certain how far the honourable member wants me to go in answering this question, given the separate briefings which have occurred this evening. Perhaps, in fairness to the Assembly, I should deal with it as comprehensively as possible. It is not possible to estimate total expenditure for 1989-90 on meningitis prevention until departmental discussions are finalised. I must advise that a number of incidents have caused us to institute various prevention and surveying procedures assqciated with meningococcal meningitis. It is impossible to determi ne what cos t will be i nvo 1 ved. I n such ci rCllmstances, the government will spend what it has to spend to deal with the problem. I cannot put a dollar amount on it at this stage. We budget to deal with the circumstances which confront us but, in human services areas and health, particular circumstances may arise which require the reallocation of resources to deal with particular problems. In this case, the necessary funds will be allocated to meet the demands.

7602


Meningococcal meningitis is a bacterial infection of the meninges, the tissue which forms the lining around the brain. There is usually complete recovery without any complications if it is detected and treated early. However, a delay in the start of treatment can result in death or in long-term neurological complications. The preventive measures for meningococcal meningitis include immediate short-term protection for people who have been exposed to a patient with meningitis and long-term protection for the community where the meningococcus is endemic.

In the short-term, all the immediate contacts of the patients with meningitis are treated with an antibiotic called Rifampicin. This antibiotic is effective in eradicating the bacteria which may lodge in the throat of such contacts; that is, in carriers. It has to be taken orally for 2 days and there have not been any reported side-effects so far. For long-term protection, the vaccine called Mencevax has to be given by a single injection. The vaccine protects the individual for a period which varies between 2 and 3 years and possibly ~ven up to 5 years. However, the vaccine is not highly effective when given to children under 4 years of age. I might add that the evidence indicates that the vaccine has an effectiveness in the order of 70% to 90%. Thus, vaccination does not provide 100% certain protection.

An outbreak first occurred in the Pilbara region of Western Australia in 1987 and then spread to the eastern goldfields region of Western Australia and the Nganampa region of South Australia, both bordering on the Northern Territory. Between September arid November 1987, 5 cases with meningococcal meningitis from the Nganampa area were admitted to the Alice Springs Hospital. Honourable members will be aware that many of the people in the central desert areas, particularly Pitjantjatjara people from northern South Australia, use Alice Springs as a medical and hospital base. After discussions with health authorities in South Australia, the Northern Territory and Canberra, all children betweeh the ages of 3 and 15 - approximately 600. children in the Nganampa region - were vaccinated against meningococcal meningitis between November 1987 and January 1988.

Children in this age group are usually selected for vaccination because they are more susceptible to the disease than adults are. The cost of the vaccine was borne by the South Australian Health Commission. Over the following 10 months, cases occurred. in different communities in the southern region of the Northern Territory. There were 1 to 2 cases per month uP .. to July 1988, but this increased to 3 to 4 cases per month by October 1988. 2 cases occurred at Utopia within 2 weeks in October in 1988. The second patient died before admission to hospital. The decision was therefore taken to vaccinate children aged between 2 to 15 years in Utopia and in the surrounding communities. However, more cases continued ~o appear in other areas of the southern region and a decision was taken to vaccinate all children residing in the rural communities south of Tennant Creek, including children in the town camps of Alice Springs and Tennant Creek. Selected communities in Katherine that have regular contact with related Walpiri tribal communities in the southern region were also covered in t~is program.

After this extensive vaccination program covering some 3570 children· between November and December 1988, there was an abrupt arrest in the number of new cases of meningitis. Unfortunately, in July 1989 there were 3 cas~s from the Nganampa region in South Australia, where the vaccine program was conducted at the end of 1987. Discussions were held with the Nganampa Health Services administrator and administrators of the South Australian Health Commission, and it was decided to vaccinate children between the ages of 2 and 15 who had not already received the vaccine during the earlier vaccination program. There have since been 6 further cases in the region.

7603


Since the beginning of September 1989, there have been 8 admissions to the Alice Springs Hospital with meningococcal meningitis. These included a 27-year-old European man who did not have contact with Aboriginal people or with rural communities. However, the meningococcal bacteria in his case was different from that seen in the majority of the cases; that is, he had a type C which is not usually associated with epidemics, whereas the other cases had type A bacteria. There have not been any other cases among the non-Aboriginal population. 2 Aboriginal children from Mt Liebig had meningitis occurring 3 days apart and a third case occurred there 4 weeks later. An Aboriginal child aged 18 months in Alice Springs town and 3 children from Nganampa region in South Australia have also been admitted with meningococcal meningitis.

That was the situation prior to the end of last week, Mr Chairman. Since that time it has been confirmed that a 6-year-old Aboriginal girl from Pine Creek died this week in Katherine Hospital from meningococcal septicemia. The antibiotic Rifampicin is to be given to her close contacts. A single case is not regarded as an outbreak but, if any further cases are detected, a vaccination program will be immediately implemented in the region. .

I have been advised today that, as a result of these events, the Director of the Communicable Diseases Centre has been in contact with world experts in Gambia and the United States and with other experts interstate. Discussions have occurred in Alice Spririgs during the course of this week to develop strategies to address the problem of the reoccurrence of meningitis in central Australia.

I have been advised this afternoon that the problem has been exacerbated by the admission to hospital on 11 October of a 7-year-old Aboriginal girl from an Aboriginal urban community with meningococcal meningitis. This is the fourth case identified among Alice Springs urban residents in 1989 and 3 of these cases have occurred since 6 September. A series of control measures are being implemented. I have taken the opportunity this evening of briefing most MLAs from central Australia and I am hoping to catch up with the member for Flynn to ensure that he is briefed on the matter. The Director of the Communicable Diseases Centre is in Alice Springs at the moment. The young girl who has been to hospital was a student at Sadadeen Primary School and she attended school on Monday 10 October. Tomorrow we will be in contact with parents and children at the school, and people who have been in contact with her, to take the appropriate preventive measures.

I have outlined these developments in the context of the honourable member's question because I was aware that he was conscious of circumstances which arose last year and concerned about what might occur this year. It is important to note that we are taking whatever steps are necessary. We cannot estimate what the costs will b~ at this stage but I can advise honourable members that we are working closely with all the communities in the affected area. Among the departmental staff involved in discussions are the Director of the Communicable Diseases Centre, representatives of the Menzies School of Health Research, and members of Aboriginal health services.

I might mention here that 2 children who attend Scotch College in Adelaide were in close contact with the previously mentioned child during the school holidays. We have been in contact with Scotch College to ensure that appropriate action is taken. The tracing mechanisms are well 1n place. There is total unanimity among all the medical experts as to the appropriateness of the action being undertaken and we will be doing whatever is necessary to ensure that any further outbreak is properly dealt with. Whilst I cannot put

7604


a figure to any likely expenditure, I can advise that everything necessary is being done and that the necessary resources will be provided.

I turn now to the next question from the member for MacDonnell. Given the real reduction in hospital expenditure throughout the Northern Territory, can the minister explain what services have been cut and which will be affected? Mr Chai rman, Budget Paper No 4 refl ects a· 1988-89 hospital expenditure of $97.68m and $99.728m in 1989-90, an increase of $2.048m. In examining this increase in real terms, it is necessary to consider what inflating factors are not provided for in the current allocation and those non-recurring expenditures contained in the 1988-89 expenditure. The purchase of x-ray equipment at the Royal Darwin Hospital for $l.4m is an example of a non-recurring expenditure. The 1989-90 allocation does not incluae allowance for inflation since 1 April 1989. Such inflation factors are usually addressed in the mid-year budget review process which is carried out in what is known as the first budget review. When provi~ion is made for inflation and non-recurring expenditure, the net increase in hospital services funding is $5.848m or 6%. The application of the Northern Territory inflation index of 4.9% results in a real growth in hospital-based expenditure of 1.1%.

The next question asked how much would be saved by reducing the operating theatre capacity at Royal Darwin Hospital. Whilst there has been some discussion about changes in practices in the operating theatre at Royal Darwin Hospital, we have postponed any decisions in respect to reorganisation of the operating theatre utilisation subject to further consultation with ~taff and hospital administration prior to January 1990. The objective of any reorganisation will be to achieve the most efficient and effective utilisation of resources. Every program of the hospital is being examined to determine whether there are ways of more efficiently and effectively utilising available resources. The review of operating theatre practices is part of that process and, whilst there was an announcement some weeks ago, the matter has been postponed pending consideration and consultation with the people involved. There is no intention of deliberately limiting access to theatres, with the consequential potential blow-out in elective surgery. That is not our objective.

I was asked which specialist clinics do not exist at Royal Darwin Hospital for public patients and which ones are provided only by visiting specialists. A broad range of specialist clinics are provided by Royal Darwin Hospital for public patients. The following are provided by interstate specialists, as patient demand does not warrant employment on a full-time basis: neurosurgery - 6-weekly visits; rheumatology - yearly visits; nephrology - 3- to 4-monthly visits; pediatric surgery - yearly visits; pediatric cardiology - yearly visits; adult cardiology - twice yearly visits; neurology - 3-monthly visits; spinal unit - twice yearly visits. There are numerous other clinics, such as a pain clinic, which are not held in Royal Darwin Hospital because the demand is so minimal. It is not economical to establish them. In such cases, patients are referred interstate for treatment and, of course, PATS is available.

The next question was: given the demand for child-care at Royal Darwin Hospital, how much has been allocated for the establishment of a child-care centre? This sounds very much like a line out of the ALP policy statement. No provision has been made for child-care facilities at Royal Darwin Hospital. Child-care requirements have been investigated a number of times in the last 5 years but the justification for a child-care centre has not been proven. The Children's Services Bureau reaffirmed previous findings only very recently. To provide a 40-place child-care facility at Royal Darwin Hospital

7605


for children of staff plus inpatients and ~utpatients would require approximately 2000 m2 of ground level space. The capital cost would be in the order of $450 000 with an annual operating budget of $250 000 less income from fees. Staffing ratios require 1 attendant for every 5 children under 3 years and 1 attendant for every 10 children under 6 years.

Current thinking on provision of child-care facilities is that they are best located in the child's local neighbourhood so that contacts and networks extending beyond the facility's hours of operation can be established. There are 27 child-cqre centres in the Darwin and Palmerston area and the Family Day Care pro'gram caters for another 400 children. A 20-place centre is due to open in Karama in June-July 1989 and the NT Children~s Services Program Planning Committee is currently considering a suitable l.ocation to build a 40-place centre with federal funds. At this stage, Palmerston is highly favoured as, the 1 ocati on for thi s facil ity.

The Children's Services Bureau is available to counsel staff in relation to which child-care facilities are available in neighbourhoods and staff at the Royal Darwin Hospital will be made aware of this service. The Royal Darwin Hospital will continue to monitor the need for a hospital-based facil i ty and wi 11 make further recommendations if the need a ri ses. I mi ght add that, in August 1988, the Royal Darwin Hospital held a meeting of staff members interested in the establishment of a child-care facility. Of 1200 staff members, 6 turned up. The Darwin Private Hospital was approached to determine whether a joint facility was viable. As an interim measure, Royal Darwin Hospital has built a secure playground for children whose parents are short-term visitors to either hospital.

Further consideration will also take into account whether work-based child-care should be fostered at the expense of community-based centres. The matter is being kept under review. In summary, there is no evidence of a demand for that service outside what is already available in the community and the opportunities to develop further facilities there. The need is being continually monitored and reviewed.

The next question was: what arrangements are being made to establish accommodation for parents from remote areas whose children are in hospital and how much has been allocated for this purpose? Mr Chairman, an average of 6 parents per ,day are accommodated in a section of the Paediatric Ward. However, on some occasions, 20 or more parents have been.accpmmodated on mattresses on the floor of ancillary rooms. In addition, ad hoc accommodation and meals are provided on an individual request basis at either Royal Darwin H~spital or Darwin Private Hospital. In building 4, the former staff accommodation, 2 rooms are available for relatives of out-of-town patients and occasionally staff village units are used if required. A total of 84 beds are available in 3 Aboriginal hostels with transport to and from the accommodation provided by either Royal Darwin Hospital or AIMS. Funding is also provided under the Patients Assistance Travel Scheme for accommodating parents in hostel accommodation.

I was next asked: given the remoteness of the Northern Territory and the need to. maintain up-to-date medical and nursing services, how much has been allocated for the purpose of in-service and external training for each professional group? Funding for in-service and external studies and nursing and medical scholarships is necessary to help in the development and maintenance of an up-to-date health service in the Northern Territory. As new products, techniques and training methods become available, the respective professional groups may utilise available funding to further develop their

7606


skills. It is inappropriate to allocate funds to specific.,professional groups and funding is allocated on a needs basis. In addition, there is provision in 1989-90 for 53 scholarships for nursing, medical and allied health professional staff.

I must say in respect of this that a number of interstate conferences and professional conferences occur each year and these can be very valuable in updating the skills of professional staff, be they nurs'jng, medical or allied health professional staff. We are examining ways of facilitating appropriate attendance at these conferences. I am reminded of a discussion with a nurse in the hospital who had recently been to a burns conference jn Hobart. . She had gained a considerable amount of useful new information and was writing a report on the conference with recommendations for. the implementation of some programs at the Royal Darwin Hospital. I have asked for a copy of that report to be forwarded to me. I understand, from my informal discussions, that it is an excellent report which provides an opportunity for ideas gained at the conference to be circulated among other staff in the Burns Unit at the hospital.

That is an example of the sorts of benefits which can flow as people spread the knowledge they gain from training programs. Attendance at conferences also helps to break down the professional isolation which has always been a problem in maintaining highly qualified and professional staff in small services in areas like the Northern Territory. I would like to support and encourage that trend, particularly when people return from conferences and provide reports and recommendations which will help to improve our services. I am keen to encourage this approach throughout the department and, whilst I am very new to the portfolio, I know that the department is aware of my belief that, as well as formalised training and scholarships, staff development and innovative programs can result from informal training.

The next question was: what community-based. initiatives have been established for the purposes of after-care facilities and at what cost? The objective under this initiative is to meet the cost of the necessary support in the community to enable early discharge from acute bed care. Services which may be provided include domiciliary care services and a range of therapy and counselling services. In addition to current after~care service provided, the funding has enabled planned discharge of patients into the community with after-hours nursing care and home help. Rural patients are discharged to appropriate hostels with after-hours nursing services available.

I was a 1 so as ked.: how much, of . the $1. 7mannounced by the previ ous Minister for Health and Community Services to re-equip the Royal Darwin Hospital radiology facili.ty is capital cost and. how much is maintenance, what is the cost of the maintenance contract with Toshiba, what are the staffing levels in the Radiology Department at the Royal Darwin Hosp,ital and how does this compare with the last financial year? Mr Chairman, Royal Darwin Hospital was able to totally upgrade radiologjcal facilities and enter into a comprehensive 5-year service contract at a total cost of $1.555m. Of this amount, $1.249m was for equipment purchase, $256 000 was for a service contract and $50 000 was for installation costs. The current. staffing establishment of the Radiology Department consists of 2 radiologists, 16 radiographers and 2 x-ray attendants. The establishment has not varied from the previous financial year.

I mentioned that the total amount for the 5-year service contract is $256 000. As a consequence of that, we have reduced staffing in the maintenance area by 2 technicians, with an effective savings of $70 000

7607


per annum. We have also saved an annual expenditure of $50 000 on parts, giving a total savings in that area of $120 000 per year or $600 000 for 5 years, which represents a savings in the order of $350 000 over that period. Under either scenario, the replacement of major equipment would be the responsibility of the Royal Darwin Hospital.

In respect of drug and alcohol services, I was asked: given the increase in funding, how much has been allocated for the establishment of new sobering-up shelters? This needs to be put in context. Under the alcohol and drug services program this year, there will be an expenditure of $3.4m in 'the 1989-90 year, an increase of $1.5m on the 1988-89 expenditure of $1.9m. This year, an allocation of $207 000 has been made to the Alice Springs region for the development of drug and alcohol treatment services. It includes funding for 2 additional staff at the Alice Springs Hospital for the systematic early detection and treatment of patients admitted with alcohol and other drug problems. This will provide an accurate database for determining the effect of alcohol and other drug use among hospital patients and ensure early identification and intervention in alcohol and other drug problems at a time when they are readily treatable. This initiative is the cornerstone of future development of a regional service aimed at harnessing all available resources in the Alice Springs and Barkly regions to reduce the effect of substance abuses on the local population's health and well-being. Current estimates are that 1 bed in 4 at the Alice Springs hospital is presently occupied because of an alcohol-related disease.

There has been a considerable increase in funding to community drug and alcohol agencies since December 1988. Funding has been allocated to upgrade agencies' administrative and capital resources. Additional funds have been allocated to the Alice Springs shelter in order to meet increased staffing and operational requirements resulting from the increased number of admissions to the shelter following the hearing in Alice Springs of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. Grants have also been allocated to the Tennant Creek shelter for capital work and increased staffing requirements, and to Katherine Alcohol and Drug Association (KADA) for the establishment of a new sobering-up shelter in Katherine. In 1989-90, grants of $329 000 have been provided to the Alice Springs shelter, $92 000 to Tennant Creek and $137 000 to Katherine. The Katherine shelter is expected to open in November. It is planned that a new purpose-built sobering up facility will be built in Darwin during 1989-90.

The development of the shelter program is supported by a grant of $770 000 from the Commonwealth government Department of Aboriginal Affairs to assist the Northern Territory to implement the recommendations of the interim report on Aboriginal deaths in custody. In January 1989, the Department of Health and Community Services undertook the alcohol treatment component of the FORWAARD rehabilitation program for Aboriginal persons. FORWAARD will receive a grant of $95 000 in the 1989-90 financial year. In June, a grant of $33 000 was allocated to the Numbulwar N~mburindi Association for a pilot program for the prevention of petrol sniffing in that community. A new initiative for 1989-90 is a grant of $56 000 to Catholic Missions for assistance towards maintenance of the alcohol recovery program conducted for Aboriginal families at the Nauiyu Nambiyu (Daly River) Institute. This program is an early intervention program for families from Aboriginal communities from Port Keats, Bathurst Island and Daly River. Catholic Missions have also received a Commonwealth grant of $60 000 over 2 years to develop children's programs as part of alcoholism prevention in these communities.

7608


The 1989-90 allocation for the Northern Territory Campaign against Drug Abuse cost-share program is $550 000. This money is allocated to drug education and prevention programs conducted through the Health Promotion Unit of the Department of Health and Community Services, the Department of Education, the Early Intervention and Drug Assessment Unit at the Royal Darwin Hospital, and monitoring and evaluation conducted by the Drug and Alcohol Bureau. Major research and evaluation projects include a review of petrol sniffing and prevention programs in Aboriginal communities, an evaluation study at the Alice Springs Sobering-up Shelter in 1990 and an evaluation of Aboriginal treatment and rehabilitation programs in the Darwin region. $40 000 has been allocated under the NTCADA budget for the commencement of an employee assistance program in Alice Springs. Such programs are developed in cooperation with the Northern Territory Trades and Labor Council, the Northern Territory Confederation of Industry and Commerce and the Northern Territory government.

In answering the question about the allocation for the establishment of a new sobering-up shelter, I have placed it in the context of a comprehensive range of developing programs which are addressing the problems arising from alcohol and drug abuse.

I was also asked: with the new provisions in the Misuse of Drugs Bill for drug-dependent persons, what additional funds have been allocated to services to ensure that comprehensive assessments will be possible? Additional funds have not been identified in the 1989-90 budget for additional assessment and treatment services for drug-dependent persons which may be necessary as the result of the introduction of the Misuse of Drugs Bill. The bill makes no formal provision for comprehensive assessment services. However, under sentencing guidelines, provision is made for consideration of drug dependence in the sentencing options available to the courts. In the second-reading speech, the Attorney-General tabled the document and invited wide community discussions on the bill. The Department of Health and Community Services, through the Drug and Alcohol Bureau, has responded to the invitation.

'The bill has been presented to the Drug and Alcohol Advisory Committee for comment. The DAB has generated a series of meetings with departmental and non-government treatment services in order to canvas comment. As a result, several agencies have forwarded comments on the bill and its implications for treatment services. A full-day seminar involving officers from the Department of Health and Community Services, non-government agencies, the police and the Department of Law, was held in order to discuss community comment on the bill and its implications for the treatment system.

Our view is that, in the short term, demands on the treatment system as a result of the bill can be met initially by increased coordination of existing Drug and Alcohol Treatment Services. However, in the longer term, it will be necessary to address the following areas: enhancement of current drug education and prevention activities; the provision of an accredited assessment team for the assessment of drug-dependent persons appearing before the courts; the provision of detoxification services for drug dependent persons; alternative resources for outpatient management of drug dependent persons, including the use of methadone maintenance; possible upgrading and relocation of the Banyan House therapeutic community, in order to provide for expanded residential services to drug-dependent persons, which is particularly important if diversionary programs are required as an alternative to imprisonment; and the implications of intravenous drug use for the spread of AIDS.

7609


The member for MacDonnell also asked about the Patients Assistance Travel Scheme: can the minister provide details on the type of services provided under this scheme and indicate how much has been allocated to it? The Northern Territory government, through the PATS, provides financial assistance to people who live in isolated areas and need specialist medical services. The scheme is subject to eligibility criteria and depends on referral by a medical or dental practitioner to the nearest appropriate Northern Territory specialist. An interstate specialist may be approved where a Northern Territory specialist is not available.

Mr Bell: May be approved? Or will be approved?

Mr HATTON: May be approved. PATS provides assistance with travel and accommodation. It is not designed to cover all costs. In some cases, personal expenses may be involved - for example, the cost of taxis. Benefits are normally limited to the period certified by the treating specialist, up to a maximum of 7 nights or a maximum of $210. For maternity cases, the maximum period is 14 nights and $420 per person in total. Reimbursement is up to a maximum of $30 per night for approved commercial accommodation upon production of relevant receipts or $10 per night with private accommodation without a requirement for receipts.

PATS funds are also used for visiting specialist expenses where patient loads justify this. In other words, it is possible to use PATS funds to bring a visiting specialist from interstate if sufficient numbers of patients need attention. It is cheaper to bring the specialist to the Territory than to move 10 or 20 patients interstate. However, it is important to note that persons who choose to go interstate to visit their own private specialists are not entitled to assistance under PATS if there is a specialist available in the Northern Territory. If there is a specialist available in the Northern Territory to treat them and they choose to travel interstate rather than using that service, they pick up the costs themselves. PATS is not intended to assist people in making private arrangements for medical treatment allover the country, although people regularly seem to assume that it does.

The next question stated that PATS is not available for those wishing to participate in IVF programs interstate, and asked how much has been allocated for persons wishing to participate in such programs. Mr Chairman, PATS provides for those wishing to participate in an IVF program interstate, pro~ided that patients were approved into an IVF program prior to 29 July 1987. In other words, people who have applied subsequently have not been able to obtain it. This government has some concern for Territorians who need this facility but were not approved patients prlor to the cut-off date. It is an emotive and difficult issue but the department is looking at ways of providing support and assistance to people seeking IVF services. Anybody who has discussed the concerns of a woman seeking to have a child and finding that IVF is the only option can appreciate what a sensitive matter this is, and what emotional importance it has to those involved. The department is investigating ways of providing some limited opportunities for Northern Territory women to avail themselves of this service and $100 000 has been allocated in this year's budget to assist IVF patients.

The department is currently examining options on how best to allocate the funds. One option is to provide financial assistance to IVF patients and their escorts through PATS, and that may give some limited access. A further option is being very closely examined. We are looking at the possibility of enhancing local aspects of IVF applications, and discussion have been taking place with some interstate facilities about the possibility of providing at

7610


least part of the IVF programs locally, perhaps in a joint venture with the Darwin Private Hospital. Various options are being negotiated and considered but, in one way or the other, there will be some limited service to provide some form of assistance.

Mr Bell: You are about half way through.

Mr HATTON: I know. I did not know how far you got in asking your questions.

Mr Bell: To question 9.

Mr HATTON: The next question concerned disability services: given the increased allocation to this program, can the minister explain how much has been allocated to the seat clinic at the Royal Darwin Hospital, what increase is this on last year's allocation, how many additional staff are to be appointed, and by how much will the waiting time for patients be reduced?

Mr CHAIRMAN: Honourable minister, the honourable member obviously knows the questions. If the minister were to indicate the tenor of the question and then give the answer, it might speed things up.

Mr HATTON: It might help me too, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, the 1989-90 allocation provides for a budget of $33 000 and 1 additional staff member.

Mr Bell: It would be quicker if I were allowed to ask the questions one by one, Mr Chairman.

Mr HATTON: This is an increase in funding of 25% over 1988-89. Members should be aware that this represents direct costings only and does not incorporate overheads or shared human and physical resources. I understand that, if such resources were to be costed, the amount would be in the vicinity o{$150000. Waiting times for patients could be halved with this initiative. The provision of an additional technical officer position and a 25% increase in funding has been required to achieve this objective. The direct budget for the Royal Darwin Hospital city seating clinic in 1989-90 is $33 000. Other support services, shared resources and overheads are considerable under this service. I am advised that the full cost will be nearer to $150 000. My department has been concerned for some time with the waiting times of disabled people to obtain scientifically designed seats for wheelchairs etc. Within the next few months, the previous waiting time of 6 to 12 months will be reduced to in the order of 3 months.

The next question deals with repatriation of intellectually-disabled people to the Northern Territory. To date, 6 people have been repatriated from South Australian institutions, with 1 person returned to Alice Springs and 5 persons to Katherine. Of these, 2 people are using existing resources within the community, with one of the individuals accommodated by relatives and the other within Bindi Services. The remaining 4 individuals have very high support needs and are being accommodated in a special purpose facility built by the Department of Lands and Housing. Some of the $200 000 will be spent for their care, which is contracted to Somerville Community Care Services Inc.

$91 000 has been earmarked from the total allocation of $997 000 for care of people in institutions interstate and to repatriate other people, as well

7611


as to develop resources in the community to support the returnees. The number of persons to be repatriated has not been finally determined as relatives are being contacted to discuss the potential for repatriation. In addition, discussions are being undertaken with services provider groups to identify the capacity to receive people. There are 18 people currently in South Australian institutions for whom the Territory still has the responsibility.

About $lm is spent every year on supporting intellectually-disabled people interstate. Apart from reducing that cost, the relocation of those people to the Northern Territory is having a twofold effect. Professional and other services here are giving those people a substantially improved quality of life. People whose condition has not improved in many years down south have shown substantial improvement after coming back to the Territory. That speaks volumes for the departmental staff involved in providing support services and the disability services. I certainly advise honourable members to suppott and encourage the continuation of that particular project.

The member for MacDonnell referred to the 14 extra staff to be provided in the area of child and family services and asked how many of those would be allocated to the Children's Services Bureau to enable it to assist community child-care centres in their daily operations, which can include the selection of suitable staff.

Mr Bell: Sorry, you missed the ACROD issue under disability services.

Mr HATTON: Which one is that?

Mr Bell: The reference to the concern expressed by the Alice Springs region of the NT branch of ACROD.

Mr CHAIRMAN: Perhaps the honourable member could refer to it by the question number because the minister would find that helpful.

Mr BELL: It does not have a question number. This is the one which has just been referred to me.

Mr HATTON: The honourable member might like to come back to me on that one. There are plenty of other matters to be dealt with in relation to this question.

To enable the Children's Services Bureau to assist child-care centres across the Territory, funds were provided to a joint Commonwealth state program through a grant-in-aid. The NT Resource and Advisory Program assists staff and management committees with training and the operation of their services. NTCSRAP is currently conducting a planning workshop, and a training program in staff selection and management. Approximately $48 000 has been allocated in 1989-90. The 14 staff were allocated as follows: 1 to child and family services; 3 to 8 in services to the disabled; 5 to corporate services; and 5 to Youth, Sport and Recreation.

The previous minister's commitment to the expansion of child protection services in the Northern Territory remains unchanged. As part of this commitment, a specialist child protection team has been established, based in the Darwin region, to develop the necessary departmental policy and operational procedures. There has been no reduction in the level of child protection services provided by the department during the course of this financial year. However, the department is currently reviewing staffing in all areas in order to contain salaries expenditure.

7612

DE RATES - Thursday 12 October 1989

I must say, ~r Chairman, that at about this time every year, departments focus on the need to contain their staffing costs within budget allocations. There are significant fluctuations within the first couple of months and a possible argument for some reduction in staff numbers, with discussion of an amount equivalent to a certain number of positions. There has certainly been no decision to cut any particular area of staffing and, having heard the specific number mentioned in the honourable member's question, I have myself asked some very pertinent questions with respect to the Darwin region because I am most concerned to avoid any reduction to on-the-ground services, particularly in important areas. I am personally investigating the matter and it is my understanding that, whilst the department is closely monitoring the budgetary figures, no decisions have been made in relation to staff cuts. There were some early indications of potential budget blow-outs which may have .•.

~1r Bell: But, there has been a reduction in the staffing level for the Darwin region? '

Mr ~ATTON: There has been no reduction. There have been suggestions that the current budget overflow could cause a potential reduction in staffing, even on a temporary basis, by up to 75.

Mr Bell: Hang on. You say that the budget overflow could cause a reduction. How does that happen?

Mr HATTON: Blow-outs in overheads, higher duties allowances and overtime payments could arise, pushing the actual costs above the budget allocation. It is too early in the year to make any definitive judgments about staffing. The region is examining the potential and I have indicated that I want to have some very positive input to any considerations. I have done so because the matter is important in terms of the delivery of services, and I am responsible to this Assembly and the community at large for the provision of services. If there is any move to begin trimming and cutting around the edges, I certainly intend to become involved.

I turn now to the issue of women's health, where I was asked: given that there are no separate budget allocations or policy for women's health programs, can the minister provide details of priority funding allocations for women's health programs? It is appropriate that I take the opportunity of reaffirming the government's commitment to the improvement of the health and well-being of all women in the Northern Territory. Our government will be focusing on them.

I have answered the questions, Mr Chairman.

Mr Bell: What, about grants-in-aid to organisations?

Mr BAILEY: Mr' Chairman, this is question 9 on the list. Can the minister provide details of the names of community-based organisations which had not received departmental approval for their 1988-89 budgets by the end of the 1987-RR financial year?

The next question concerns the Katherine Women's Crisis Centre. Will the minister table a copy of the auditor's report into the 1987-8R allocation of $159 535 to the Salvation Army for the conduct of the Katherine Women's Crisis Centre, bearing in mind that my honourable colleague raised this matter in the Legislative Assembly on 18 May?

7613


Can the minister advise how much money has been given to fund NTCOSS? If there has been no allocation, can the minister explain why this organisation, which is capable of providing the government with important social policy advice, has been forced to operate for a number of years with no funding from this government? I might add that, as far as I am aware, with the sole exception of the NTCOSS, all councils of social services in the states are funded by the respective state governments, whilst Acoss, the peak body used as a source of information by all governments, is funded by the Commonwealth.

I bring to the attention of the honourable minister a letter to the editor in today's paper:

Sir,

Many deaf people in the Darwin area are worried that there is no sign of replacement for the present ear, nose and throat specialist at the Darwin Hospital when he retires soon.

In fact, Mr Chairman, he has already retired.

The hospital administrators and the Health Department have known for some time that a new ENT specialist would be needed, but their efforts to find one have been ineffectual. What are deaf people to do for treatment? Apart from the necessity of routine control of ear conditions, complications can arise which include brain damage and death.

Even wi thout the pil ots ' stri ke, iti s often not appropri ate for people with ear complaints to fly to Adelaide for treatment since their problems are often made worse by air travel. Indeed, airlines recommend sufferers from ear inflammation not to fly. In any case, the expense involved is considerable.

The Northern Territory has above-average incidence of ear problems, made worse by tropical conditions, swimming etc. There is a considerable amount of deafness amongst schoolchildren, particularly at primary level, and there is a very high incidence among Aboriginal children. Unless they can be assured of proper treatment for ear complaints, those deaf people and parents of deaf children who have the chance will leave the Territory. God knows what those who are left will do.

The Deafness Association has brought the problems to the attention of previous ministers - and unfortunately there have been 3 ministers this year - in an effort to get something done. In February, the association started to request that action be taken. It was told that many things were happening but, as far as it could ascertain, there was only a single advertisement placed in The Australian, which drew no responses. The Deafness Association made many efforts to get this government to bring an ENT specialist to the Territory and, in fact, almost had one organised at one stage when, unfortunately, he contracted the 'flu and, if the information I have is correct, is no longer coming.

I ask the minister what action is being taken to find a replacement ENT specialist for the Northern Territory, more specifically the top half? There is a specialist in the Alice Springs area who, I believe, covers the region as far north as Tennant Creek. Are 1 or 2 newspaper advertisements sufficient to find a replacement for a specialist who has been used extensively at the Royal Darwin Hospital?

7614


Mr HATTON: Mr Chairman, the member for Wanguri asked me to provide details of the names of community-based organisations which had not received approval for the 1988-89 budgets by the end of the 1987-88 financial year? Community organisations, as a normal practice, would not receive approval for their 1988-89 budgets in 1987-88 or, I can say, the 1989-90 budgets in 1988-89. Under the current budgetary arrangements, it would be quite inappropriate for the Department of Health and Community Services to ,be committing this government to forward expenditure without due regard to the parliamentary process. Therefore, no community-based organisation, funded under the various grant programs operating through the Department of Health and Community Services, was advised of its 1988-89 budget prior to the end of the 1987-88 financial year. It is only after the NT budget is tabled in this Assembly that grant recommendations are forwarded to me for approval. This usually occurs in mid-April, but I will be reviewing this timetable to see if community organisations tan be advised earlier.

I understand that the department funds some 200 organisations through grants-in-aid. During the next fortnight, I am due to receive recommendations in relation to applications for grants-in-aid, including explanations of what programs will be implemented as a consequence of those grants, so that I can see where our money is going, how it is being spread, and how it is being prioritised in services across the Northern Territory. Whilst in many cases we will not be able to accomplish it this year, we are working towards ensuring greater accountability in terms of outcomes information from organisations receiving grants so that we can ensure that moneys are being applied to the purposes for whiCh they are granted and so that we can determine whether we are getting value for money. We are advising organisations of the new requirements and, whilst it may not be possible to implement the program fully this year, it will gradually enable us to provide earlier information and a better indication of how funds are being spent.

The second question related to the Northern Territory Council of Social Services. NTCOSS was advised on 25 January 1989 by the then acting Minister of Health and Community Services that, following discussions last year between Hon Don Dale and its representative, its request for funding was viewed sympathetically. However, the government has decided not to fund the organisation as funding priority is generally accorded to organisations providing services directly to client groups. NTCOSS did not apply for funding in 1989-90. For several years, until 1980, NTCOSS received financial support from the Northern Territory government. At that time, some members of the organisation caused offence to the government by publicly criticising certain government policies. The council did not receive further financial support from the Northern Territory although it has reapplied for operational funding several times since then.

In March 1988, NTCOSS submitted to the department an application for a grant of $55 000 to enable it to employ 1.5 staff and to cover administrative expenses. NTCOSS is affiliated with ACOSS and similar bodies in other states and the ACT. The councils act as peak bodies for community welfare organisations. As such, they represent the interests of low-income people as well as organisations providing welfare services. Broadly, NTCOSS aims to promote coordination and cooperation between government and non-government agencies and to disseminate information to agencies and community groups.

The role of peak organisations in various areas is acknowledged by the government. For instance, where possible, grants to sporting bodies go to such organisations. However, in a time of financial restraint and funding restraint, the top priority is seen as the funding of those organisations which provide direct services to the public.

7615


In respect of the other question from the member for Wanguri .•.

Mr Bell: Hang on. What about the Katherine Women's Crisis Centre?

Mr HATTON: Of course. I could not forget the Katherine Women's Centre. Will I be providing the auditor's report? The audited financial statements of incorporated bodies are required to be filed with the Corporate Affairs Office within 1 month of the AGM which must be held at least once in 12 months. Therefore, the audited report of the Salvation Army's Katherine Women's Crisis Centre for 1987-88 should be available for public search at the Corporate Affairs Office at this time.

Mr Bell: Hang on, I am referring •.•

Mr HATTON: It is believed, however, that the member for MacDonnell may be referring to a financial investigation into the service, conducted by a senior departmental officer as part of a joint review of the operations of the centre. The results of the financial investigation disclosed minor irregularities. A subsequent joint Commonwealth Northern Territory review of the Katherine Women's Crisis Centre has been conducted and the report of that review is currently under consideration by both myself and the federal minister. Any decisions will be taken when those considerations are complete. and I do not intend to table any documentation until myself and Minister Staples have had a chance to confer on the subject.

In respect of the issue of an ear, nose and throat specialist for the Royal Darwin Hospital, the member for Wanguri obviously has a bee in his bonnet .. We had some informal discussions about it. at the Royal Darwin Hospital open day last Sunday and I anticipated that there would be reference to the matter in the House. I must say that I have raised the matter myself. It is of serious concern.

Mr Bailey: Sign the petition.

Mr HATTON: I signed the petition which the Deafness Association prepared and which, I believe, the member for Wanguri will present during the course of these sittings.

Dr Rao has retired. We knew of his intention for some considerable time and we have been trying to recruit a replacement. Advertisements have been placed in The Weekend Australian and twice in the Medical Journal of Australia. That is only part of a recruitment program. It would be highly unusual for an ENT specialist to be recruited as a consequence of an advertisement in a newspaper. Better methods have been and are being used. These involve contact with all major hospitals which have ENT specialists, contact throughout the society to which ENT specialists belong and the engagement of a recruitment agency which operates both in Australia and overseas. Quite frankly, the money offered is not a consideration. If we can get somebody who is interested, we will negotiate.

In the short term, the specialist from Alice Springs will come to Darwin each month. We have no locum in place as yet and we are currently going through the same process as outlined above in order to recruit a locum. A senior registrar is expected to arrive within a month in Darwin. Dr Rao will be employed from 15 February 1990 for a number of months if he is available. That will give us a bit more breathing space to find an ENT specialist. This situation is not unique to the Northern Territory. All states have problems with the overall shortage of ENT specialists. Persons who require urgent

7616


services will be sent south through PATS if we do not have a specialist available.

Mr BELL: Mr Chairman, I thank the Minister for Health and Community Services for many of his answers, but there are significant gaps and further questions that I want to ask. I am not sure I will be able to do it in the 10 minutes that is available to me.

The Minister for Health and Community Services refused to answer the question with respect to the salary package for the Director of Mental Health Services. I find it entirely unacceptable for a minister to refuse to place on the public record the details of the salary package of any public servant. I want to know how many other public servants in the minister's department have the same secret salary arrangements. Are there any others? Let me say that I appreciate the work of the Director of Mental Health Services, about which I have learnt a considerable amount since taking over. shadow responsibility for this portfolio. However, I find unacceptable the principle that the salary of any public employee is not able to be advised in this Assembly and I want to know who else has secret salary packages.

Mr Hatton: You mean confidential packages.

Mr BELL: Secret. Ca 11 it' confi denti a l' if you 1 ike. I prefer 'secret'.

Mr Hatton: It is a fundamental principle.

Mr BELL: It is not a fundamental principle at all. In fact, the fundamental principle is that, if you payout of the public purse,this is exactly the forum where those details should be disclosed.

In relation to the allocation for the establishment of an assessment team in Alice Springs, as promised by the CLP during the 1987 election campaign, the minister said that the money had been allocated. The fact is that that assessment team has not been set up and I want to know why. The minister did not answer in any detail my question about AIDS funding. I will not ask any further questions about that. I will examine the Hansard record of his response and direct further questions to him in due course.

In answering my colleague's question about the ENT specialist, the minister did not address the subjects of the eye clinic and facial reconstruction.

Mr Hatton: I was not asked!

Mr BELL: The minister was asked which specialist clinics do not exist at Royal Darwin Hospital for public patients and which ones are provided only by visiting specialists?

The minister did not answer my question about the disability services policy and provisions of the final draft policy. I would like him to answer that question.

Mr Hatton: Which one?

Mr BELL: I. brought to your attention a concern in the Alice Springs regional branch of ACROD. It has been advised that it is not likely to see a copy of the final draft of the disability services policy. I want to know why.

7617


With respect to the 14 extra staff and the staffing of the Children's Services Bureau, I point out to the minister that, when the Chief Minister brought down the budget, he said that the remaining 14 extra staff will strengthen child and family services and aged and disability services. From the minister's answer, only 1 position relates to family and community services. There is a serious discrepancy between what the Chief Minister said in his budget speech and the answer the minister has given today. I want to know why.

I appreciate the minister's answer in respect of the 73 positions -that the Darwin region has been told to shed. Like him, I will monitor the situation carefully. I note the minister's answer with respect to NTCOSS and I am absolutely staggered. It is an indication of the arrogance of this government that we can actually have a minister of this government say that, in 1988-89 NTCOSS dipped out on its money because it did not behave itself.

Mr Hatton: That is not true. I did not say that.

Mr BELL: Mr Chairman, I heard what the Minister for Health and Community Services said and so did you. He said words to the effect that

Mr Hatton: 1979-80. 10 years ago.

Mr BELL: 10 years ago?

Mr Hatton: That is when the funding stopped.

Mr BELL: The funding stopped quite recently.

Mr Hatton: 1980.

Mr CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr BELL: Mr Chairman, be that as it may, whether it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago or 100 years ago, the principle remains. CLP governments have basically got their noses out of joint because some officers of NTCOSS have been so bold as to occasionally suggest that the government is doing the wrong thing. ~Ie run that risk all the time and we know how uncomfortable it can be. I really do not think that is good enough. I believe that NTCOSS has fulfilled a useful purpose in the past and I am concerned that there has been no further consideration of the role it plays.

Mr Hatton: NTCOSS did not apply for funding this year.

Mr BELL: Mr Chairman, let me turn to the question of the Katherine Women's Crisis Centre. This is a difficult situation. I have raised it a couple of times in the Assembly and nobody has bothered to answer me. I raised it in an adjournment debate in May and I received no response then. I am . determined to get to the bottom of the matter. I have received representation from people in Katherine with respect to the Katherine Women's Crisis Centre. For the benefit of honourable members, there was an allocation of $159 535 to the Salvation Army to run the crisis centre. The Salvation Army, of course, has a very proud history of Christian service throughout the world. I do not mean any criticism of the organisation. However, when irregularities are drawn to my attention, obviously I cannot walk by on the other side of the street. I am determined to find out what occurred. The minister has told me that an internal financial investigation was under way concerning the expenditure of the 1987-88 allocation.

7618



Mr BELL: Mr Chairman, I move that so much of standing orders be suspended as would prevent me from completing my remarks.

The committee divided:

Ayes 7

Mr Bailey Mr Bell Mr Ede Mr Lanhupuy Mr Leo Mr Smith Mr Tipiloura

Motion negatived.

Noes 13

Mr Coulter Mr Finch Mr Harris Mr Hatton Mr ~lcCarthy Mr Manzie MrsPadgham-Purich Mr Palmer Mr Perron Mr Poole Mr Reed Mr Setter Mr Vale

Mr HATTON: Mr Chairman, I am sorry but I missed the specialist clinics. All primary specialist clinics are provided at Royal Darwin Hospital except neurosurgery, rheumatology, cardiology, neurology and spinal injuries.

point about continuously nephrology,

The member for MacDonnell alleged that ACROD, will not be able to get a copy of the draft disability services policy. That is not correct. It certainly will be provided with a copy of the draft policy and be given the opportunity to comment. I look forward to its comments.

With respect to the Northern Territory Council of Social Services, I will note again for the purpose of the record that NTCOSS aid not apply for grant-in-aid funding for 1989-90.

I will repeat again that the matter concerning the' Katherine Women's Crisis Centre is the subject of a joi~t government investigation. In my view, it is inappropriate .••

Mr Bell: It started 12 months ago, Steve.

Mr HATTON: Be that as it may, Mr Chairman, the fact is that it is a joint government investigation. I received some preliminary reports a little over a week ago and have forwarded the copies to the federal minister for his comments. When he and I have had a chance to jointly consider the matter, I will be in a position to comment. I am not prepared to comment unilaterally on a matter which is the subject of a joint government investigation.

Mr Bell: I am not asking you to do it unilaterally. I am just asking you do it a little bit under 12 bloody months.

Mr Manzie: That is a disgrace.

Mr Bell: Not as disgraceful as you are, Daryl.

7619


Mr Smith: You set the example. This has been 2 days of ministerial irresponsibility.

Mr Coulter: Come on, you are all

Mr Bell: If you blokes want to run this bloody joint till midnight, you have to expect it.

Mr CHAIRMAN: Order! The member for MacDonnell will withdraw that remark.

r~r Bell: I withdraw unconditionally, Mr Chairman.

Mr HATTON: In relation to the Alice Springs assessment team, I am advised thilt its funding is in place but a senior psychologist has not been permanently appointed because of recruitment difficulties. The funding for recruitment is, however, in place. It is a recruitment issue not a funding issue. It appears that the advice received by the honourable member may not be completely accurate. I think that deals with all the questions that have been asked.

Mrs PADGHAM-PURICH: The allocation for geriatric assessment is to rise from $352 000 in 1988-89 to $680 000 in 1989-90. I ask the minister to explain this rise and also the sale of government assets mentioned in Budget Paper No 4. I used incorrect figures when I asked the minister a question about the blow-out in relation to ethnic affairs services. The correct figures should be $264 000 to $460 000. I also qsked about the blow-out in expected expenditure for mental health services. Could the minister explain the great increase in funds? There is also an unexpected increase in the budget allocation for alcohol and other drug services from $1.893m to $3.425m for the year 1988-89. Budget Paper No 4 makes no reference to an allocation for mammography tests for women in the Northern Territory. Is there an allocation and, if so, could I have details?

Mr HATTON: Mr Chairman, I may deal with these questions in a different order. The health professionals who provide geriatric assessment services in the Territory are known as Adult Assessment Coordination Teams. The teams are provided on a regional or area basis using Commonwealth funds administered through the Department of Health and Community Services. They also provide expert guidance and assistance on residential care options to aged persons. To fulfil the services' aims and objects, the assessment teams liaise closely with general practitioners, hospitals, hostels, nursing homes and, in particular, community support services. This support and cooperation is needed to ensure that people with multiple and undefined needs or those seeking residential care are referred to assessment teams to have the extent of their needs determined and care plans developed and to ensure that appropriate support services are provided to assist clients without undue delay. The amount referred to in the budget papers represents the anticipated receipts from Commonwealth sources. The Commonwealth has advised recently that the 1989-90 funding level for the program will in fact be $473 599 which is an increase of $122 000 on last year's level.

Mrs Padgham-Purich: What is the definition of a 'geriatric'?

Mr HATTON: An old person. Geriatric services are for the aged.

Mrs Padgham-Purich: I know that.

Mr HATTON: I do not know the definition, but I can find out.

7620


The next question related to a blow-out in expenditure on mental heRlth services. I would appreciate it if the honourable member recognised that she was referring to different figures. Total expenditure on mental health services in 1988-89 was $5.4m. The budget allocation for all mental health services in the current year is $5.915m, an increase of approximately $500 000. The increased allocation provides $92 000 for the restructuring of the Mental Health Nursing Service to ensure improved quality assurance and clinical nursing services, $45 000 for the establishment of a Territory-wide Mental Health Administration Unit and $238 000 for the full-year effect of new policy initiatives introduced during t.he course of last year, such as the Sexual Offenders Treatment Unit in Darwin and the development of regionalised health facilities in Alice Springs, Katherine and Nhulunbuy.

In respect of mammography services, the honourable member is correct when she notes that there is no specific program allocation for mammography. Costs relating to mammography are included across a number of programs, depending on the nature of the services offered. For example, diagnostic mammography would be inc 1 uded in the budget all ocati ons for the Roya 1 Da rwi n and Ali ce Spri ngs Hospitals. Similarly, funds for travel under the Patients Assistance Travel Scheme for clients to avail themselves of these services would also be included under the 5 Territory hospital programs. Funding provision would also be included under the primary health care urban community and health services and rural community health services programs for women's health, including education initiatives and the promotion of early detection techniques for breast cancer. Funds are also included in the urban community health program for grants to community organisations which provide essential support in thi s area; for example, the Northern Terri tory Anti -Cancer Foundation and the Family Planning Association.

In respect of the alcohol and drug services program, the increased budget allocation for 1989-90 is comprised of inflationary aspects as well as the following. The transfer of costs previously charged to the central corporate services program to the alcohol and drug services program accounts for $307 000. The provision and upgrading of sobering-up shelters in Alice Springs, Tennant Creek, Katherine and Darwin as result of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody accounts for $770 000 and, on page 143 of Budget Paper No 4, the honourable member will see the specific-purpose Commonwealth payment for that purpose.

Mrs Padgham-Purich: People who stay sober don't get much, do they?

Mr HATTON: The amount for increased drug education funding is $71 000, with $106 000 for new policy initiatives for the regional alcohol and other drugs and dependency services and an alcohol awareness program directed towards Aboriginal communities in the Top End.

The sale of government assets is undertaken routinely by all government departments and proceeds are paid into the Consolidated Fund. Types of assets sold range from office furniture and equipment to vehicles and plant and equipment which has exceeded its economic life. Assets may be sold by way of an invitation to tender or at public auction.

Mr EDE: Mr Chairman, I refer the minister to the Treasurer's Annual Fi nanci a 1 Statements. Statement 4 refers to ex-grati a payments, wri te-offs, gifts of public property and waivers. The minister will notice that there is an ex-gratia payment of $3834 under the Department of Health and Community Services and the sum of $86 985 under the heading 'Moneys Authorised by the Treasurer to be Written Off as Irrecoverable'. Under the Department of Health

7621


and Community Services, there is a waiver of the right to recover public money. It refers to a loan to a community organisation of some $10 000. Could the minister explain those entries?

I would also like the minister to provide me with some information regarding the facilities for the provision of health care at Nyirripi, which he ,and I inspected. I understand that he is att~mpting to do something about the situation. He may also wish to comment on the situation at Mount Allan, where the problems have been compounded by the refusal of a far less reasonable minister to allow any growth in that community. That minister has said that there will be no growth at Mount Allan because of problems with the supply of water. I do not know what the community is supposed to do about this situation, whether people are supposed to self-destruct or immediately contro 1 the bi rth rate, but I certainly know that, if any other town in the Northern Territory had run short of water, the minister would not rest until all possibilities had been explored and the, problem was actually fixed. However, in this case, the minister concerned is not doing that.

I would also like the honourable minister to give some indication that he w6uld be prepared to exercise some lateral thinking on the case for a hospital at Yuendumu. My research indicates that there is not a single town in New South Wales larger than Yuendumu which does not have a country hospital.

Mr Finch: What a lot of absolute rot!

A member: It reminds me of the blue cows.

Mr EDE: I hope you keep on about these blue cows. There will be a mob of red faces to go with them.

Mr Chairman, the minister would possibly be aware that about half the Aboriginal people in the Alice Springs Hospital at any given time are from the area around Yuendumu, including Mount Allan, Nyirripi and Papunya - the Walpiri area. That figure does not take into account the Pintubi people around Kintore further to the west and also •.•

Mr Hatton: Would they relate more to Yuendumu?

Mr EDE: Their relationship with Yuendumu would be far closer than their relationship with Alice Springs.

Mr Hatton: That does not necessarily follow.

Mr EDE: A group of those people lived near Yuendumu for some time before the big move west. I believe that it would be appropriate to set up a country hospital with the majority of staff working on a fly-in fly-out basis with no permanent accommodation and negotiations with people in the area to provide food for the patients. Dietary programs could include bush tucker and the operation could be cost-effective, in its own right, particularly when one consjders the incredible cost of charters out of that area.

I would like the minister to comment on the fact that no money is provided by the Northern Territory government for the Urapuntja health service at Utopia. If this Commonwealth-funded health service had not been established, the Northern Territory government would have been funding a certain level of health services there. It seems to me - and I stand to be corrected - that the ,amounts of money provided to the Northern Territory government are worked out on the basis of a standard delivery of health services for all people

7622


throughout my electorate and the electorates of other honourable members. It could be argued that the Commonvlealth fundinq of the service at Utopia is incremental funding and that the Northern Territory government should be providing base funding as a contribution towards the operation of that service. The sisters and doctors who IAlOrk there are camped in very primitive accommodation and, obviously, the federal funds are not sufficient to deal with the problem.


Mr HATTON: Mr Chairman, I do not have the information available to answer the honourable member's queries concerning the Treasurer's Annual Financial Statements. J will seek information and advise the member in due course, probably in writing.

I have written to the honourable member about the situation at Nyirripi. During the visit ~v the Select Committee on Constitutional Development, I had the opportunity to look at the facilities. I understand that the services are now at an appropriate level and that recruitment of 2 part-time Aboriginal health workers is now taking place. J will keep the honourable member advised concerning development of that program.

I can also advise that we are seeking to recruit appropriate nursinq staff for the health clinic at Mount Allan. I understand that the honourable member will receive correspondence in relation to that.

The concept of the hospital at Yuendumu is interesting and I wonder whether the honourable member is developing some degree of prescience. It is very early days as far as consideration of the issue is concerned, but we have been holding some discussions over the course of this last month. The honourable member is correct in saying that there are significant costs in respect of the periods which Aboriginal people spend in hospital. That is not to say that they are abusing the service but, on average, they need to stay in hospital for at least twice the average number of bed nights as non-Aboriginal people. This occurs, firstly, because of their state of health when entering hospital and, secondly, because of the need for a substantial recovery period in hospital rather than in the sort of living environment in which, unfortunately, many Aboriginal people live.

We have been holding some very preliminary discussions, without prejudice, about the possibility of alternatives such as low-intensity accommodation, which may help Aboriginal people to leave hospital sooner. From our point of view, it would be cheaper and, from the Aboriginal people's point of view, it would enable them to get out of the hospital environment, which they do not enjoy. We have been discussing the possibility of providing hostel or recovery facilities in the home communities in central Australia, but the idea is in its very early stages. It may be a financially viable option which is more acceptable to Aboriginal people because they will be able to return home earlier. It may be a means of satisfying the needs of Aboriginal people whilst also favourably affecting our budgetary situation.

As far as the Urapuntja Health Service is concerned, it is fallacious to argue that the funding of this service is an extra provided by the Commonwealth. An analysis of the Grants Commission assessment for Northern Territory funding shows that it takes into account the funds being provided by the Department of Aboriginal Affairs for independent health services in calculating the available funds for health services in the Northern Territory. I am advised that our funding by the Commonwealth is reduced as a consequence

7623

DEBATES - Thursday 1~ October 1989

Of its direction of funds to those independent services. Whilst we do not oppose the concept of independent services per se, and the Department of Health and Community Services itself funds a number of independent health services in Aboriqina1 communities, we have real concerns that some communities may be over-serviced at the expense of others. We are also concerned at the absence of appropriate coordination and integration with public medical and health services, which leads to inefficiencies and duplications in the system. I intend to take up those concerns with the federal ~1inister for Aboriginal Affairs so that we can develop a more rational approach to the funding of independent health services, lessening conflict and duplication and any inappropriate allocation of resources which is occurring at the moment.

Mr EDE: Mr Chairman, as far as the Urapuntja Health Service is concerned, it is not a question of the quality of the service but rather of the lifestyle of people living in the area. I hope to be able, next week or at the next sittings, to table a report which is the first I have been able to find for central Australia. It is a community-wide health status report carried out on very rigorous ••.

Mr Hatton: Good, because we are doinq one too.

Mr EDE: Are you? For what area?

Mr Hatton: The whole Territory.

Mr EDE: You have more money than this mob, which is only looking at the lIrapuntja area. The report makes some very interesting comparisons with other communities, and with Territory-wide figures.

I am also interested in the situation at A1purrurulam, also known as Lake Nash. On mv last visit, the clinic was under construction. I wonder whether the minister also has some good news in relation to this situation.

In finishing, I would like to briefly speak about the case of a gentlemen whom some honourable members will know Quite well. He originally went by the name of Bill Harding but now goes by ,the name of Bill Lewis, and he had a nervous breakdown after his marriage ended in 1979. He resigned from his public service position here, went to Adelaide and then returned to Darwin, where he was admitted to Ward 1 at the old Darwin Hospital. He was in a very bad way at that stage. After being discharged, he took an overdose and nearly killed himself. He then spent another 6 months in Ward 1. He approached various ministers, the first one being the then Minister for Health, the present member for Rark1y. who was totally uninterested in his problems.

In 1981, Mr Lewis stood for election against my colleague, the member for Millner. He scored 1% or 2% of the vote and then began publicising the lack of appropriate psychiatric services in Darwin. He has been doing that off and on ever since. He occasionally rings me from Adelaide, Canberra, Rrisbane or wherever he happens to be at the time. He is now back in Darwin and has put together a submission for the establishment of a community-based health service which revolves around the allocation of a number of Housing Commission houses as halfway houses for people with psychiatric problems, where they can continue to receive medication whilst reinforcing each other in rebuilding the stability and confidence necessary to move back into the broader community. I know that the minister has received that submission and I wonder whether he sees any possibility of such a scheme developing.

7624


At the end of Mr lewis' letter, which he has sent to all honourable members, he states: 'Now they have what I was arguing for and now I ask you not to leave me on the scrap heap. I want a job in the public service. I think I deserve one, after all that I have done in this area over 7 years from 1979 to 1986'. Far be it from me to put any pressure on any honourable minister as far as finding a job for Bill lewis is concerned. Any plea I make would be in terms of equal opportunity, that he should not be denied a job on the basis of his problems over the years. He is stable. He has been taking his medication now for quite some time and he has done a lot of work over the years. Some ministers may interpret his work as harassment but, in the view of many people who have experienced similar problems, he has done a great deal to bring their situation to the attention of ministers and members of this parliament, with the result that such matters are never far from our minds. One never knows when he is going to turn up and make his point very strongly again. Perhaps there is a case for equal opportunity to apply in allowing him to obtain a public service job again and possibly to continue his work in this area.

Mr HATTON: I can advise the member for Stuart, in respect of Alpurrurulam or lake Nash, that the amount of $177 000 for the clinic and accommodation is on the capital works program and work is in progress at the moment. I might also advise that other new health clinics at Mt Liebig and Harts Range have either been completed or are due for completion in the next few months. A new health clinic has been provided at Maryvale at a cost of $160 000. A considerable upgrading of health centres will also take place in the Katherine region with Kildurk, Robinson River, Hodgson Downs and Bulla Camp being programmed for 1989-90.

Mr BAILEY: The member for MacDonnell asked a question regarding the pay package of Dr Joan Ridley, Director of Mental Health Services. The minister has said that her pay package is a confidential matter. I am wondering if he would be prepared to answer any of the following questions. Does Dr Ridley have private practising rights and, if so, what proportion of her normal public service hours is she permitted to devote to private practice? When other government departments or the Department of Health and Community Services refers individual patients to the mental health services area, how many of these patients are seen privately by Dr Ridley within normal public service hours?

Mr HATTON: Mr Chairman, I will deal firstly with the member for Stuart's remarks in respect of a submission from Mr lewis relating to mental health services. I have addressed, in some detail, not only the programs included in this year's budget, but also some of the issues that we intend to address in respect of planning for future directions. These include halfway houses and community housing programs, amongst other facilities, as part of an overall approach to the problems. The planning process will provide the focus for adding to the extensive achievements of the last 3 years.

I understand that Dr Ridley has some private practising rights although I do not have details at the moment. I will seek to obtain appropriate details. I understand what the honourable member is getting at. Effectively, the bottom line is an implication that the good doctor may be double dipping in some way, and I will have examine the matter.

Mr LEO: Mr Chairman, my question is fairly simple, and concerns a matter I have pursued in this House before. It concerns a program which has been started, and I do not know whether or not it is being continued. I have not found much evidence of its continuance. The program relates to the control of

7625


the parasites which, unfortunately, affect a large number of Aboriginal children in Arnhem Land and other places. I have spoken in this House before about what I think has been a fairly well proven treatment, which involves the injection of canines with a product called Avomec. The member for Victoria River is probably aware that the program is being carried out in his electorate.

Mr McCarthy: Very successfully.

Mr LEO: It is a very successful program and I ask the minister whether any allocation has been made for the extension of that program into east Arnhem Land. The program has been undertaken by the Departments of Primary Industry and Fisheries and Health and Community Services. This is always the problem. You never know which department will do it. Have moneys allocated to better control these parasites, which certainly contribute to Aboriginal infant ill-health and to Aboriginal child hospitalisation.

Mr HATTON: I must advise that I have not been able to get enough information concerning Dr Ridley to be able to answer the question adequately this evening. I will seek more information during the course of these sittings.

In response to the member for Nhulunbuy's question, there is no doubt that the parasitic infections are a significant problem. The honourable member will be aware that, when the program first commenced, it was run by the Katherine-based District Veterinary Officer of the Department of Primary Production. I understand that, subsequently, some research was carried out by the Menzies School of Health Research. Avomec is a parasitic purging chemical used for cattle and very large mammals. The DVa applied it to dogs without a great deal of success. I have heard, although without confirmation, that the project went somewhat awry in one community and wiped out the entire dog population. I understand there were also some difficulties in gaining formal approval, beyond the experimental stage, for the use of Avomec on dogs and small animals. It was not approved for use on those animals at that time and it was subject to application for approval. I am not aware of what the subsequent events were.

I understand there are no specific allocations in this budget for the continuation of the program. The honourable member will be aware of my avid interest in the experimental program when I was Minister for Primary Produ~tion some years ago. In fact, I addressed the matter in this Assembly on a couple of occasions. I have discusse~ the matter briefly with rural health staff and, although there is no budget allocation at present, we are directing our attention to issues of primary health care with a view to applying available resources this year and focusing on what we may be able to do in next year's budget.




Mr LEO: Mr Chairman, as I understand it, the honourable minister has been sent these questions. They were mailed to him but, for the sake of the Hansard record, I will read them. Are there recorded sets of objectives for the programs within the Conservation Commission? If so, what are they and how is achievement measured against them? Given the impending threat to the

7626


tourism and pastoral industries in the Northern Territory as a result of the invasion from Queensland by the cane toad, how much money has been allocated to research and or programs to prevent a catastrophe in the Northern Territory? The park development program has been slashed radically. Can the minister explain what loss of positions and sub-programs this will involve? Finally, no money has been allocated for capital costs in the park management activity. Given that this actually includes the Territory Wildlife Park, how and when will stage 2 of the part be developed?

Mr HATTON: Mr Chairman, the question concerning recorded sets of objectives has been asked routinely on every division except the division for the Department of Health and Community Services. I know that the Minister for Health and Community Services feels deprived at not having been asked the question, but I guess he will learn to live with it.

The debate concerning the development of objectives needs to be placed in context. Right across government, there has been an evolution and change in the whole process of accounting and budgeting, with a move towards performance appraisal by program and by project. The move began with changes to the government accounting system. Program budgeting has been gradually introduced during the last 3 or 4 years and is showing itself more firmly in this year's budget presentation, which is principally by project, in contrast with former presentations which tended to identify 'salaries', 'administration' and 'other' as the only 3 components.

The Conservation Commission is fairly well advanced in this context. It has defined its purpose and 3 major goals as follows. The purpose of the commission is to manage and protect our environment. The goals are: firstly, to meet the needs of present and future generations for the conservation of fauna, flora and land resources; secondly, to promote the integration of conservation and development within the Northern Territory; and, thirdly, to increase community awareness, appreciation and enjoyment of the environment. For each goal, the commission has established sets of objectives, some of which have time targets for completion while others represent ongoing responsibilities. Within each budget cycle, the commission assesses its progress in implementing objectives, sets more detailed objectives as necessary, and allocates financial and other resources for the next year, according to past achievements and future priorities with reference to the revised objectives.

I will give an example using the second goal, which is to promote the integration of conservation and development within the Northern Territory. Under this goal, the objectives are: fa) to have an agreed Northern Territory conservation strategy available to government by December 1989; (b) to develop mechanisms to assist the community to comply with environmental assessment procedures; (c) to develop and implement strategies to ensure the planned and orderly development of land by providing government and developers with advice on land resources and associated conservation issues; and (d) to advise and assist land users in the conservation and utilisation of fauna, flora and land resources and help them to identify management priorities. The last 3 objectives represent long-term, ongoing tasks, but the first objective had a target achievement date of December 1989. We expect to come close to achieving that target. In fact, a draft Northern Territory conservation strategy is expected to be available to the Assembly and to the public before the end of 1989.

During the current year, the commission underwent some internal organisational changes which justify a revision of its strategic objectives.

7627


This is particularly necessary as the commission has now structured its budget into 15 programs which have been grouped within 3 major activities. I expect this review to be completed by mid-1990, and will be happy to make further details available when it has been completed. In the interim, the commission has assessed the priorities for each current program against these major goals.

For example, the commission has been prioritisipg works to take place in all land which it manages, in terms of the goal to which I referred. That land includes conservation reserves, nature parks, national parks, marine parks, Aboriginal land managed as national parks, hunting reserves, historical reserves and other conservation areas. Works have been planned in detail and the design lists are in place for next year's capital works. Projections extend over 5 years, tightening up as we approach the actual dates, with steps to be taken for development, protection or preservation according to what is most appropriate for the area of land involved. That is an example of how the commission is proceeding. There are definitive goals in many of those areas for the development of specific resources to handle visitor needs, and they are refined as the targets come closer.

The budgeting process across all departments is increasingly being geared to refining the cost benefit analysis of what we are doing with the monpy we have. That is a goal of management right across the range of government activities. We are developing objectives, targets and processes. Measurement criteria for determining the success or failure of activities are also evolving and being developed. Government departments are large organisations and these processes need to evolve over time. Sudden change can be quite disruptive. The general directions are there. They are evolving and being refined.

Mr Leo: They do not exist at the moment.

Mr HATTON: The findings do not, but the overall direction is there.

The honourable member asked about cane toads. For the past 3 years, the Conservation Commission and the James Cook University have been conducting a major research program into population dynamics and the possibility of control agents. If the member for Wanguri had been in the Assembly during the last 3 years, he would know that previous Ministers for Conservation, not the least of whom was myself, have on a number of occasions addressed the issue of cane toads and the problem which they present. There has been extensive research. The honourable member might be interested to obtain one of the 'wanted' posters for the cane toads which are part of the public awareness program. Perhaps he has already done so because he is certainly aware of escalating concern about the cane toad problem.

We have been conducting a major research program into the population dynamics and the possibility of control agents for the past 3 years. The program has been jointly funded by the Northern Territory, Western Australian, New South Wales, Queensland and federal governments, through the Council of Nature Conservation Ministers, to a total of $420 000. The Territory contribution has been $108 700. During the 3 years, it has also provided additional research funding of $40 000 per year to investigate the effect of toads on native wildlife. These funds have been provided from the commission's administrative and operational vote for wildlife research in the north.

7628


The final report of this program is due early in the new year and the study to date has indicated a possibility for biological control which warrants further research, but at considerable cost. The commission and CSIRO will evaluate the findings of this phase 1 program in the first Quarter of next year. If it is agreed that the control agent researched shows sufficient promise given the levels of funding required - and it would be in millions of dollars - a national program will be undertaken through the CSIRO and the universities. Regardless of this outcome, the Territory Conservation Commission will continue its monitoring of the effect of the movement of the cane toad on native wildlife. On current indications, the wildlife populations will survive the onslaught, but the Territory will be left with an unwelcome visitor.

I note also that, in the world's greatest environmental statement, the Prime Minister stated that the Commonwealth would undertake scientific investigations of a possible biological control agent as well as studies of the toad in its native South America. I am sure that, if that is the case, the Prime ~inister will be prepared to reimburse us if we have already found the answer and given him a safe outcome in terms of one his promises.

In commenting on this matter, I pay tribute to Dr Bill Freeland of the Northern Territory Conservation Commission, who is regarded as one of the world's top experts on cane toads. He has been a major contributor to the very successful research program which the commission has been undertaking.

Park development is an interesting subject, Mr Chairman. The honourable member ought to have studied the budget papers more closely. He said that the park development program has been slashed radically. Can the minister explain what loss of positions and sub-programs this will involve? He said that no money has been allocated for capital costs in the park management activity and asked, given that this activity includes the Territory Wildlife Park, how and when stage 2 of the park would be developed.

Mr Chairman, there has been no loss of positions or sub-programs within the park development program under the park management activity as a result of the apparent reduction in the Conservation Commission's 1989-90 budget for this program. The actual total ~xpenditure for 1988-89 of $36.786m included an amount of $6.9?8m .in respect of capital works undertaken by the commission during that financial year. The responsibility and funding for capital works in 1989-90 has heen transferred to the Department of Transport and Works, and the commission's budget allocation for 1989-90 does not include a capital works component, hence the apparent shortfall.

Mr Bailey: We are doing your work for you.

Mr HATTON: That is right. The total amount of commission funding in 1988-89 was $36.786m, compared with $35.003m this year. If capital works are included, last year's figure was $36.786m compared with $43.432m for this year, or an increase of 18.06% in the total allocation for conservation activities. In terms of capital works allocations through the Department of Transport and Works, there has been an increase of 21.67% from $6.928m to $8.429m. The figure can be found on page 29 of Budget Paper No 5, where the total program of $11.853m appears. I am referring to the cash allocation against that program.

A submission foreshadowing expenditure of some $5.5m over a 3-year period for development of stage 2 of the Territory Wildlife Park is to be considered by the government shortly. Pending favourable consideration, it is envisaged

7629

DERATES - Thursday 12 October 19P9

that the construction of additional facilities would commence in 1990-91 following design and documentation, which must be done first.

I think that explains the situation pretty accurately. think .that the honourable member will accept that this year's funding, in real terms, is higher than last year's. Our capital program is up and we have an excellent development program right across the spectrum of our parks, and our park development capital works program is up dramatically.

Mr BAILEY: Can the minister advise whether or not planning for the Litchfield Park includes provision for excisions for private developments, and would one of these excisions actually be at the base of Florence Falls?

Mr HATTON: The road access and basic facilities such as camping areas and toilets have been necessary to minimise visitor impact. To ensure that development takes place in an orderly manner, a development plan was prepared and endorsed by Cabinet. The current state of development is being carefully reviewed by a Conservation Commission planning team with a view to producing a revised development strategy which, in effect, will become a precursor to a formal plan of management. With the recent transfer of title from the Territory Land Corporation to the Conservation Land Corporation, the scene is now set for formal declaration of. the park as a national park under section 12 of the Territory Parks and Wildlife Conservation Act.

Recently, expressions of interest were called for commercial development in the park. These have been evaluated and 3 permits are being let for horse trail rides, walking tours and safari camping concessions. Negotiations are continuing with other interested parties. The Department of Transport and Works has a commitment to upgrade access from the Litchfield Park Road with resealing of sections completed. Work has commenced on the sealing of a 20 km section within the park and is to be completed before January 1990. Work is expected to commence soon on the upgrading of creek crossings. A second house was completed at the Walker's Creek Ranger Station and the CCNT is currently considering alternatives to meeting increased power requirements. Work continues with the CCNT's ongoing commitment to regional emergency services operations which will include emergency response plant and equipment. Construction is expected to commence on the Tolmer Gorge suspension bridge in April 1990 at a cost of approximately $300 000. Visitor facilities at Sandy Creek, including toilets and walking tracks, are planned for completion in October 1989 at a cost of $35 000. Long-term planning and development strategies for the park, including the southern extension and Department of Transport and Works accelerated roads program, are being examined. That is the extent of the proposed development at this stage. There have been no excisions.

Mr BAILEY: Within the proposed plan of management, is there to be a private development about 150 m from Florence Falls in the cleared area where people used to park?

Mr HATTON: No. There are no plans.

Mr EDE: Mr Chairman, I ask the minister whether there are any plans for entry fees or any increased fees for services within Northern Territory parks. In respect of the Strehlow Research Centre, I note that there was expenditure of $217 000 last year. I would like the minister to describe, in general terms, how that allocation was utilised. He may also wish to comment on the $227 000 which is provided in this year's budget. He may be able to advise me of how much of last year's and this year's allocation relate to

7630


capital works, acquisitions etc and how much to recurrent expenditure. I would also like to know what financial return the government received during the last financial year from the Spencer and Gillen Museum in the Ford Plaza.

Mr Hatton: We have already dealt with that appropriation. You were out having a cup of coffee or something.

Mr EDE: Okay, we will put that one on notice.

Could the minister advise whether any funds have been allocated for rangers in communities? I know a number of communities around the Northern Territory which have asked for rangers. For some time, Lajamanu has asked for an Aboriginal person to be trained as a ranger to work in what used to be the Tanami ~Iildlife Sanctuary. Discussions on that subject go back to Mr Hanrahan's time. The people have cooperated with the Conservation Commission over a long period. The minister will know about the work which has been carried out there in relation to the mala and the bilby.

Mr CHAIRMAN: I remind the minister that we still have something like 9 or 10 divisions remaining to be dealt with.

Mr HATTON: I remind the Chairman that I have been answering questions in committee for 3 hours, the same time as the Minister for Education.

Mr Bell: Oh, you poor fellow.

Mr HATTON: I am not complaining about that, Mr Chairman. I am trying to deal with the answers properly.

The matter of charging has inevitably arisen in discussions within the Conservation Commission. The Northern Territory government has authorised the commission to consult with tourist industry representatives over the introduction of charges for park services, excluding entry fees, from January 1991. Consultation has been proceeding. It is hoped to finalise the matter before the end of 1989 so that the tourism industry can be given a full 12 months notice prior to the introduction of any charges, if charges are to commence. User-pay schemes in nqtional parks and equivalent areas received some attention during 1988. The commission engaged a consultant to investigate the subject and present options for consideration. Members will note that the Commonwealth has introduced entrance fee charges for both Kakadu and Uluru National Parks. The Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service introduced a system of charging for park services from 1 November 1988.

After some fairly lengthy deliberations, the Conservation Commission came to the view that there should be no entry fees in Territory parks but that charges should be made for the use of services provided within the park, provided that there is a benefit to government and park management and provided that the cost of collection does not exceed the revenue derived. Fees will not be levied for entry to parks but charges may be made for the use of services which may be provided within the park. The matter is being discussed with people involved in the tourist industry and we would want to give the industry 12 months notice of the implementation of any charges so that it would have time to plan in advance.

In respect of Aboriginal rangers in communities, I am advised that we have 13 trainee rangers at Katherine Gorge, 3 trainee rangers at Kings Canyon, 3 rangers at Cobourg and 1 ranger at Edith Falls. It is my understanding that there is no allocation in this budget to provide for further community ranger

7631


programs. I am aware of the work being done on some of those projects and the potential benefits that can flow from the community ranger system.

I am not in a position to advise on how funds were spent by the Strehlow Research Centre during the last financial year. I will find out that information for the honourable member. In preparing for this debate, J have directed my attention to this year's budget. Under the Strehlow Research Centre Act, the government is legally bound to acquire or construct a building to house and secure the collection. The preservation of the sorts of art and cultural material such as that contained in the Strehlow collection requires housing with special design features such as humidity and temperature control and adequate display and storage areas. The program provision of $3m is considered to be the minimum cost of constructing such a building. This figure was arrived at following advice from the Department of Transport and Works and the Museums and Art Gallery Board regarding the minimum requirements for housing a collection of such value. $227 000 has been allocated. The funding consists of salaries and allowances for a maximum staffing level of 3 people and $125 000 for administrative and operational expenses. This includes costs associated with new initiatives, including $10 000 for an annual scholarship, $25 000 for copying and transcribing of diaries and $30 000 towards preservation of film and sound tapes, giving a total of $65 000.

Mr Ede: What is the figure for salaries and wages?

Mr HATTON: There is provision for 3 staff at a cost of $102 000.



Mr EDE: I ask the Minister for Transport and Works whether there is a separate set of financial documentation available for the mooring basin at Frances Bay which would give us a clear indication of income and expenditure.

Mr FINCH: There are such analyses although I do not have the precise figures available. I will obtain the information for the honourable member. The income is set in such a way that it balances the actual expenditure on manning the basin. The income projected for this year is $300 000. The basin is full and the $300 000 approximates the actual cost of its operation.

Mr EDE: We will obtain $300 000 from it when it is full. However, last year, we obtained $356 000 from it. Has the scale of fees been reduced? On page 159 of Budget Paper No 4, it states that the mooring basin rentals for 1988-89 were $356 000. What is the reason for the reduction? Secondly, given that the income only covers the costs of the manning of the basin rather than the additional costs of maintenance, dredging and so forth, are those other costs detailed so that we are able to determine the extent of the subsidy that we provide to the fleet?

Mr FINCH: Mr Chairman, the answer is very good news. This year, most of the occupants of the basin have opted for annual rental. The annual rate is lower than the short-term rate. Last year, the basin was full for most of the year but only a small percentage of occupants booked berths for the entire year. This year, many of the fishing companies are obtaining a better deal by booking for the entire year. If they do not take such a booking, they run the risk of missing out. There is now pressure to expand the basin.

7632


Very little dredging is required. However, the maintenance components are included in the annual operational cost which is pretty well on a par with the annual income. Whether we are up or down a little is not a cause for great concern. The government's return on the capital investment ought to be quite a substantial amount but we are satisfied with the success of the basin, the return it brings to all of its users and the $3m of income to the adjacent businesses. That is justification itself. The user fees will remain the same this year, except for a change in the case of port berths for sailing vessels. These were set according to the width of the vessel and the total amount was the same as that for a normal berth. These have now been brought into line with amounts for standard fishing vessel berths.



Mr BAILEY: Mr Chairman, the minister has been supplied with these questions. As a guideline to the expenditure of moneys allocated to the Department of Transport and Works, does the department have a recorded set of objectives. If so, what are they and how is achievement measured against the objectives?

The allocation standing against public works construction for 1989-90 proposes an increase of some $20m on actual expenditure in 1988-89. On what projects is the amount of $79.847m to be spent in the 1989-90 financial year? The allocation for public works asset maintenance has been decreased by approximately $0.28m. Given the developing asset base, this would seem incongruous. Does the department intend to divest itself of assets? If so, which assets and for how much? Alternatively, has the department reduced its asset maintenance effort in response to budgetary restrictions? As a further and more general question associated with asset management, does the department have a .complete asset register in conjunction with its asset maintenance program?

Where and on what type of housing is the allocation of $27.4m standing against rental housing construction to be spent? The allocation for bus services indicates an increase of almost $lm. How is this explained given the recent increase in bus fares?

With regard to State Square, has the fixed price been determined yet and, if not, when can we expect a determination to be made? What has Tipperary Investments been paid thus far? What has Multiplex been paid thu~ far? What is the total cost of the Supreme Court Building? Has the contract for furniture been let as yet? What is the estimated cost of the new Parliament House? When is work on the new Parliament House scheduled to begin and what are the details of loans - amounts and terms of repayment - taken out for financing of the State Square project?

Mr FINCH: Mr Chairman, I have a fairly comprehensive answer to the question concerning corporate objectives. In simple terms, the department does have a set of corporate objectives and these include future directions.' All the key issues are set out in a booklet which has now been printed and is being circulated. The opposition spokesman for this portfolio is very much aware of that corporate plan, which was developed with the total involvement of the department. I recall the honourable member making some complimentary remarks.

7633


Nr C~airman, I seek leave to have my detailed answer on this question incorporated in Hansard.

Leave qranted.

Corporate Ob,iecti ves and Use of Performance Measurement I noi cators.

Corporate Objectives:

The corporate objectives of the Department of Transport and Works, the future directions and key issues are set out in the corporate directions booklet. This booklet has just been finalised and is beinq presented to all staff of the department as part of an ongoing corporate planning process which was initiated some 3 years ago.

The corporate directions booklet is underpinned by sets of documented action plans for each division of the department. These list specific actions covering external relations, performance, human resource development and systems standards and technology application. Each task has a completion time frame and nominated responsible officers.

These action plans are monitored at divisional level and reported on to the management board of the department, monthly. For nominated major· tasks, there is a direct report and review process to management board.

Performance Measurements Against Objectives:

Because of the diversity of functions carried out by the department, there are a number of performance indicators in use and others are in the course of implementation.

As an example of performance indicators developed for an operational area, I attach the Darwin Bus Service performance indicator report for September 1989.

This shows performance against a number of standard measures and compares month and year to date figures with the previous year. The overall objective which has been set is to increase the cost recovery ratio from 0.33 in 1988-89 to 0.35 in 1989-90.

Cost and time monitorinq systems for contract management have been in place for a number of years, using the public works project register system.

This system is presently being extended, through the development of a new asset maintenance system which provides details of the condition of all government public works assets and predicted works for each asset and an asset information system that will provide an accumulation history of expenditure against each asset.

Roads Division is developing similar packages within a roads information management system which will provide information on road asset management and maintenance program requirements and predictive data for future network management.

7634


On a more general level the rate of program delivery (capital works, repairs and maintenance) is monitored on a monthly basis by the management board of the department and in more detail at divisional level.

The department is moving progressively to the development of a cost centre management process. A time management system is being piloted in Public Works and Roads Divisions in Darwin and the system has been developed to extend the process throughout the department. This will form part of the cost centre management system and will enable performance to be measured across all sections of the organisation.

At a more specific level particular efficiency measures have been introduced in various ateas of the department.

I will mention some of them briefly. A fuller explanation is contained in the department's 1988-89 annual report which J will be tabling in the House during the course of this session.

Fleet Information Management System:

A new system introduced in June of this year covers asset maintenance, allocation, disposal and replacement data and details of vehicle usage and performance.

Value Management System:

A specific system introduced in Public Works and used in the design process to eliminate unnecessary expenditure without loss of necessary performance, quality or reliability has been used successfully so far on 4 major projects: extensions to Katherine Hospital, the new Katherine Law Courts, the Menzies School of Health Research, and the upgrading program for Department of ,lands and Housing flats and houses.

Quality Management (Assistance):

A system used to ensure that appropriate Quality standards are met for construction projects. The system is being introduced in Roads Division as part of the requirements under Australian Centennial Roads Dev~lopment Program and is being developed in Public Works Division to align with the requirements of the Australian standard As2990.

On the human resources side"there are a number of programs which are in place to improve performance, reduce lost time and monitor staff turnover and retention. Again, an explanation is given in the 1988-89 annual report.

As a specific example, J would like to point to the 5-star safety program which was introduced in 1988. Comparative figures show a 41% reduction in lost time injuries and 18% reduction·indays lost from 1987-88 to 19R8-89. As reported in the 'Australian Safety News' September 1989 the department rates as the safest public service workplace in Australia under the National Safety Council 5-star health and safety management system.

7635


Mr FINCH: Mr Chairman, the corporate directions include all of those objectives specified for the department. I will table examples of the working documents issued on a division by division basis. The objectives set down in the corporate directions booklet and the individual divisional formats are monitored regularly. In fact, reports are presented to the monthly management board by each divisional head to assess progress on defined tasks. The list of specific actions, of course, covers a great variety of components. Each specific task has a precise completion time frame and a nominated responsible officer, as is highlighted in the notes which I have forwarded.

Of course, when it comes to measuring performance, it is really a matter of horses for courses and the various sectors of the department have different methods of measuring their performance. Whilst I have outlined some of them here briefly, the majority are mentioned in the 1988-89 report which will be tabled during these sittings. They are elaborated on in that report. For example, in the fleet information management system, a new system was introduced in June this year to cover all asset maintenance. It is all computerised, including every detail one could possibly require in respect of vehicle usage and performance, including costs.

As far as value management systems are concerned, a specific system was introduced in the Public Works Division and is used in the design process to eliminate unnecessary expenditure. Projects in which this has been used successfully include the Katherine Hospital, the new Katherine Law Courts and the new Menzies School of Health Research.

In the area of quality management, a system is used to ensure that appropriate quality standards are met for construction projects. This ensures that we meet the appropriate standards, particularly in relation to roads under the Australian Centennial Roads Development Program. It also ensures that we meet all the appropriate Australian standards relating to buildings.

On the human resources side, a number of programs are in place to improve performance and to reduce or minimise lost time and so forth. Again, the programs are explained in the annual report. A specific example is our marvellous safety record. The department recently gained some recognition in 'Australian Safety News' as the safest publ ic service I'/orkplace in Austral ia. I think that demands some recognition by this House and I am sure that members opposite will be most interested to read about it.

Another example is the Darwin Bus Service and I will table a document concerning it. It shows performance targets and monitoring of progress during a particular month as an example of how we are attempting to meet our objective for the year of increasing the return per passenger mile. The department is taking a very responsible approach to establishing positive objectives and monitoring progress towards them.

Another little booklet sets out objectives and strategies in relation to roads, taking us through to the turn of the century. That is a supplementary document to the government's overall development strategy. That is not the name of our development strategy, but it is in fact the roads development strategy for how we set our priorities.

The honourable member asked which would be covered by the expenditure of $79.847m. All of the items that it covers are contained in Budget Paper No 5, Capital Works. They are listed as total project fiqures rather than expenditure figures. It would include both the revote and the new works under capital works items in the total public works area. To break it down a little

7636


more for the honourable member, we have $73.449m in actual project costs. Of the $79.847m, overhead costs are salaries and allowances of $4.960m, administrative expenses of $1.372m and capital items purchases of $66 000, which is approximately 8% of overheads out of that total delivery of capital works expenditure.

I turn now to the qup.stions relating to maintenance. Government assets are managed by client departments, which occupy those assets. Maintenance programs are developed by the client departments in the main, with technical and costing advice from the Department of Transport and Works. The actual level of maintenance is determined Jointly between Transport and Works and the client department but is generally set at a level which will maintain the asset at a reasonable standard. There are always some minor fluctuations in the annual figure for maintenancp., taking into account some short-term lumps and bumps. In the main, however, the figure remains fairly steady. The figurp.s over the last 3 or 4 years show maintenance figures varying only slightly in comparison with the total package. This year's figure does not reflect any reduction in our commitment to maintaining valuable assets.

I was asked about an asset register. The department is currently upgrading an existing system, which> is part of our asset informatior system. Of course, it provides all the historical cost data for each individual asset, the project estimate data, and the 5-year forward proo,ram for maintaining existing assets and for replacement of existing assets.

Mr Leo: Is your asset register complete?

Mr FINCH: The asset register is complete but it is currently being upgraded ina more sophi sti cated computeri sed form whi ch \lfi 11 form an integra 1 part of the overall asset management service. I have already mentioned, of course, the comprehensive system we are implementing in respect of motor vehicle assets.

The honourable member also asked for a breakdown of expenditure on construction of rental accommodation for the Housing Commission.

Mr Leo: budget.

'Other centres' seem to cover more than a third of some of the

Mr FINCH: Are you mainly interested in 'other centres'? I have a separate list which is ~uite specific. In fact"all of the main centres are listed with even the number and type, such as the number of bedrooms per unit etc. I may table this as well. I will quickly read out some of the areas, which are pretty diverse: Harts Range, Mount Allan, Palumpa, Douglas-Daly, Peppimenarti, Litchfield Park, Batchelor, Berry Springs, Maningrida, Milikapiti, Ngukurr, Nhulunbuy, Pine Creek and Borroloola. They were the ongoing •••

Mr Leo: In progress.

Mr FINCH: Yes, and the new ones are listed here as well: Oenpelli, Kalkaringi, Maranboy, Daly River, Lajamanu etc. I am happy to table that list if it will satisfy the honourable member. You did not want the breakdown, did you? You can still read that in the budget papers.

Mr Leo: What was that?

Mr FINCH: On the other areas.

7637


Mr Leo: That is the other areas.

Mr FINCH: I am sorry, in the main centres. That is already contained in the budget. There was another question on State Square.

Mr Leo: Bus services.

Mr FINCH: As far as bus services are concerned, we are actually looking at an increase in gross expenditure, not an increase in appropriation. In

'keeping with the principles of program budgeting, the figures shown in Budget Paper No 4 are the total cost of providing btis services. This includes not only an appropriated cost but also costs covered by the revenue-raising activities of the Darwin Bus Service and non-cash costs such as provisions for depreciation and long service leave. In fact, they take up a big chunk which I will tell you about in a minute. If you look at page 11 of Budget Paper No 2i you will see that the appropriated cost of the bus service is $7.6~7m. This is an increase of $318 000 over the 1988-89 appropriation, and that increase is made up of $182000 for services other than the Darwin service, of which $170 000 - the majority - is for the new Alice Springs service. Provision of $238 000 allows for a new bus service to Tindal as well as increases in contract payments to providers of bus services outside Darwin, including school bus services.

Mr Leo: School buses.

Mr FINCH: Yes, there are quite a few school buses in all centres, including Katherine, Tennant Creek and Alice Springs. Pine Creek even has a bus service now. It is fairly expensive, at about $46 000 per annum.

The final component of the sum to which I referred, however, is a credit of $102 000 which comes about as a reduction in the level of subsidy to the Darwin Bus Service. The Darwin service is operating a little more efficiently every year. In fact, in this current financial year, we are looking at a ~% increase in efficiency. Certainly, the Darwin Bus Service will be able to raise additional revenue due to the increase in fares, but this revenue is necessary just to cover the increased operational cost resulting from known price increases.

In respect of State Square, I was asked whether a fixed price had been determined yet. I would think that, in total, it certainly has not. In regard to the Supreme Court, I issued a press release some time ago with what the final figure for the Supreme Court was anticipated to be, notwithstanding any possible changes •••

A member interjecting.

Mr FINCH: It is always possible that there may be changes, Mr Chairman. For the benefit of the Leader of the Opposition, in regard to the final fit-out - and there has been a budget figure set for the final fit-out - those orders have yet to be finalised. A provisional sum item has been provided for that.

When we come to the Parliament House, we will have a fixed price before construction commences, as we have indicated all along. Next April, we will all be in a position to identify the fixed price for the entire project. Tipperary Investments has been paid so far. The previously announced figure, in respect of the development. fee, is contained in Hansard. Tipperary Investments has been paid only the 3.75% of the progress works to date which

7638


amount to some $20m. As for Multiplex. its fees are also based on a percentage of works completed. This varies from 3% to 4%. depending on the size of the subcontract packag~. but averages out at about 3.3% of the total figure, roughly $660 000. That is the formula. I did not bring the specific figure in with. I did not bring the figure for the total cost of the Supreme Court building either but. as I said, it has been issued in a press release. As I mentioned. the contract for the furniture has not yet been finalised. I believe that will occur during the next 3 or 4 months.

The estimated cost for the new Parliament House is as per the ori9inal budget figure. At this stage. we will not know it precisely until the quantity surveyors have looked at the finalised design brief by the Sessional Committee on the New Parliament House. but it is anticipated that it will be no more than the original budget which. from memory. was approximately $50m in 1988 dollars. Work on the building is scheduled to commence in earnest around April next year. Details of loans are not part of· the Transport and Works brief. They are contained in the overall Tr~asurer's budget and added to the total Consolidated Fund.

Mr LEO: Mr Chairman, the minister's response has left me with a couple of questions. I thank him for the material that he has tabled. I wish other ministers would be as forthcoming with their departmental ob~ectives.

Mr Chairman, I have a problem with the minister's answer to the second question. The allocation standing against public works construction for 1989-90 proposes an increase of some $20m on actual expenditure in 1988-89. On what projects is the amount of $79.847m to be spent ip the 1989-90 financial year? I too have read Budget Paper No 4 which contains those figures. On page 161. under the headihg of Public Works, last year's expenditure is shown at $59m. Next to it is this year's budgeted expenditure of $79.847m. When one turns to page 38 of Budget Paper No 5, however, the figures are different. I am sure that there is a perfectly good explanation although the 2 headings are the same. The. difficulty I have is trying to sort out what buildings actually will be built this year, what roads are to be constructed and so forth. What will actually be done with the $79.847m?

Mr Finch: Project by project.

Mr LEO: It is there. Public Works Construction on page 161 of Budget Paper No 4. What will the $79.847m buy?

Mr FINCH: Without going into specifics too much. we aretalkinr about that $79m going against programming. This is something which we do differently from the federal government and it throws things into a bit of confusion. Honourable members will recall that, during the Wanguri by-election campaign, there were repeated references to $373m of program expenditure. However. it was impossible to find out where these Commonwealth funds were actually being spent. Obviously, the cash expenditure did not relate to that amount and, in the end. we found that the cash allocation was actually $50m. In our case, we have an approximate amount of cash that we need to meet a total program figure for the year. which is $85.5m. Against that, we only have $79.847m cash. That is because there will always be works which are not completed at the end of the year. In the main, except for jobs that will be totally completed during the year. we do not specify exactly how much cash is against each individual item.

Mr Leo: So you have $85m-worth of work and $79.847m-worth of money.

7639


Mr FINCH: Yes. That is because, at the end of the year, $6m-worth of work will still be incomplete, without the need to meet progress payments to contractors.

Mr Leo: Then why do you program for it over the I? months?

Mr FINCH: I will give an example. Work might start on a new grandstand halfway through the year without being completed until halfway through the following financial year. Obviously, the full amount of cash will not be needed during the first year. However, the program item is the total cost of the projectl which gives an indication that the government is committed to the full cost despite the fact that only a portion of it will be paid out during the first financial year with the remainder being paid during the second, on completion of the project.

Mr Leo: So you will spend $85m, but only pay for $79m.

Mr FINCH: Experience indicates that the actual expenditure is usually about 80% or 85% of the total program amount. Are you happy with that?

Mr LEO: Yes. I guess I have enough information to follow it.

Mr Chairman, I also want to refer to the asset maintenance program and the fact that it was decreased by approximately $280 000. That in itself is not a large amount. In fact, it represents a decrease of about 10%. I would have thought that, with inflation and a developing asset base, there would be a need for an increase in the allocation for asset maintenance. Logic would seem to dictate that, unless there has been some disposal of assets or a decrease in the asset maintenance effort.

If my memory is correct, we have seen a steady increase in the cost of asset maintenance during the last few years and, given inflation and the developing asset base, that seems quite reasonable. This year's decrease does not involve a large amount of money, but I am nevertheless concerned because, although maintenance can be deferred. it has to be paid for sooner or later and, the longer it is put off, the more it costs. Sooner or later, you have to paint houses and fix motor cars, roads and other assets. My real fear is that, if asset maintenance is deferred for financial reasons, the Territory may be looking down the barrel of a developing asset maintenance debt which is inescapable in the long term. I would prefer the minister, rather than making reassuring comments about peaks and troughs, to look at the asset maintenance program and to ensure that it is such that my fears are not realised.

Mr FINCH: Mr Chairman, I agree entirely with what the member for Nhulunbuy is saying. I am a great advocate of keeping up the commitment to maintenance. When you defer maintenance expenditure for a significant period, you finish up paying more than just proportionately. Our policy is to maintain assets in an appropriate state but I point out that the department does not have total control over all assets for which it carries a maintenance vote. Our advice to all our client departments is as I have stated. In the main, I believe that our staff are comfortable with the level of maintenance being carried out. The variation this year, which is less than 5%, is a cyclical phenomenon rather ,than evidence of a reduced commitment to asset maintenance. I am not trying to palm the question off. I can say genuinely that the Department of Transport and Works has a commitment to ensuring that all assets are appropriately maintained.

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Mr EDE: Mr Chairman, I refer to the Treasurer's Annual Financial Statements. The honourable minister will be aware that there is a heading on page 51: 'Gifts of Public Property approved by the Treasurer'. Under the Department of Transport and Works, there is mention of a Caterpillar 12E-17K grader, valued at $18 ODD, which was very kindly donated to the Arunga Park Speedway Association. Could the minister' advise me whether there is any possibil ity of my 1 ining up, behind the other speedways in the Northern Territory, to obtain some equipment for the people of Utopia, in whose area over 200 km of road is in severe need of maintenance? Perhaps he can inform me of the process which I should follow to obtain one of these second-hand $18 000 12E-17K graders.

r note that last year's estimate for income from motor vehicle registration fees was $10.5m whereas actual collections were $8.9m. From memory, this year's estimate is approximately $9.7m. Can the minister advise whether that has occurred as a result of incorrect budgeting or whether it is an indication of the economic downturn in the Northern Territory? The minister would know that motor vehicle registrations are frequently cited as an indicator of the level of economic activity.

I notice that the allocation for school bus services has increased from $1.946m last year to $2.184m this year. Hopefully, that increase will restore the services to Anningie and Woola Downs, which have been cut in recent times. The original reason for that. in the case of Anningie. was that the bus simply broke down. Nobody bothered to reallocate the contract and the result is that there is no service on that route. In the case of Woola Downs. the community moved away temporarily following the death of a very senior gentleman. People have now moved back and, whilst some of the community's 19 children have been able to arrange accommodation with relatives who live near the school. others are missing out. I ask the minister to look into that situation.

r also note that there has been a very substantial increase in the allocation to computer services. It is in the vicinity of 40%. Has this come aboat because NCOM is increasing the charge for its services or is there a particular large project which accounts for the increase?

I would also like some detail about work being carried out on the Tanami Highway. I believe some work was scheduled on the section between Lajamanu and Suplejack.

The minister is also in charge of the regulatory program in relation to aviation. Can he advise whether the government has any plans to deregulate RPT services. the third level of airline services which services the larger communities. Are any plans to loosen the stranglehold which the present carriers have on those routes?

Mr FINCH: In answer to the question about the 12E-17K grader. the member for Stuart is at liberty to line up behind all the other groups. Seriously. however, from time to time. equipment becomes available which is able to be granted to community groups. There is not a lot of it and the Treasurer's approval is required. It is not entirely in my hands other than to identify which items of plant and equipment become available. Such grants to community groups are made on very specific grounds and the grant to the speedway in Alice Springs was made on the basis that the grader be accessible to other community groups. I am really not sure whether the Utopia community would qualify or whether the member for Stuart is just having a lash to see whether he can get some more work done on roads which are normally maintained by the

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government. In either case, I will pursue the matter if he would like to drop me a line.

The situation in relation to motor vehicle registrations came about because of an inadvertent overestimate. My memory is that we allowed for the possibility of an increase in motor vehicle registration fees. Of course, that increase did not come about although the fees subsequently have been increased. The increase in the rate of vehicle registration may have been less than expected but the number of vehicles registered has not declined.

School bus services to Ti Tree are managed by my department on behalf of the Department of Education. I am aware that there is an effort being made to specify what level of service is appropriate for specific numbers of children in communities, taking into account distances and various other factors. Whilst we introduced a service in Pine Creek on the basis that it would cater to about 21 children, we find that there are far fewer than that and, therefore, we have to do some soul-searching in terms of what constitutes an appropriate service. The Department of Education, in association with the Department of Transport and Works, is assessing remote communities and schools in terms of various options for providing bus services, including payment of an amount per child per kilometre.

In response to the honourable member's question on computer services, I can advise that the reason for the significantly increased allocation is the installation of an office automation system. That system will lead to great efficiencies in the long term. From memory, it will be something like a 3-year program.

An amount of $250 000 has been allocated for the section of road between Lajamanu and Tanami and the section between Tanami and Suplejack has been upgraded.

Mr Ede: Until the trucks started hitting it.

Mr FINCH: At least the works were carried out. It was rather unfortunate that the floods in central Australia led to the use of that route by fuel tankers.

Mr Ede: But they kept using it afterwards.

Mr FINCH: We might have to discourage them somehow. Perhaps we can throw some logs on the road. I do not know.

We also have a $1.5m program to upgrade various sections of the Tanami Highway and, once the flood rehabilitation work in the lower section has finished, I believe the bulk of traffic will again come from Alice Springs rather than from the Katherine end. Nonetheless, there is an amount of more than $250 000 for normal maintenance between Lajamanu and Rabbit Flat.

In regard to RPT commuter services, we will be reviewing arrangements at the end of the 3-year term, which is about 18 months from now. In the meantime, we will be persevering with the licences that we have issued to all of the operators. There has been a bit of fuss recently about some operators crossing over the runs and routes of others. Until we have an adequate level of demand for services in the majority of smaller communities, we need to regulate to ensure that they receive a minimum standard of service. Companies like Air North, Tillair and so on are required to run a minimum number of flights a week at a fair but fixed price. We have taken steps, however, to

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deregulate air freight services. Anyone can transport freight anywhere in the Northern Territory.

People argue that services to Bathurst Island, for example, ought to be deregulated. Given the number of people who live there, the short distance and the heavy amount of traffic, it could possibly operate on the free enterprise system. However, what would we do with all the other little communities? Would we leave them with the system which they had in the early 1980s, which was irregular, expensive •.•

Mr Ede: They had more flights in the early 1980s. There were more planes servicing more airstrips in that area.

Mr FINCH: And more complaints about people being left stranded and being held to ransom. The services were appalling. We will go through the exercise in about 18 months. I am happy to have input from the honourable member and the communities in his electorate because they are the ones who are affected. There is nothing in it for the government other than to ensure that all Territorians receive a reasonable minimum service at a reasonable price.



Mr LEO: Mr Chairman, I believe the minister has these questions. Are there recorded sets of objectives for programs within the Racing, Gaming and Liquor Commission? If so, what are they and how is achievement measured against them? The Northern Territory Government Gazette of 3 October 1989 advises that 4 positions within the Racing, Gaming and Liquor Commission have been upgraded. Can the minister advise why it was justifiable for these positions to be upgraded without being advertised, as would normally be expected? Did the minister receive those questions?

,Mr Finch: No, I did not.

Mr LEO: I gave them to one of your officers. Does the commission have a recorded set of objectives or not?

Mr FINCH: I am quite sure that the Racing, Gaming and Liquor Commission has an appropriate set of objectives in respect of the control and monitoring of racing and gaming. Obviously, it has similar objectives in respect of matters relating to liquor. I will supply the honourable member with a written answer to this question.

Mr Leo: It would seem that one of the objectives of the department is to promote its staff without disclosing that.

Mr FINCH: Upgrading jobs? Some positions were upgraded via the normal process of Cabinet review. No upgraded positions were passed automatically to incumbents. I recall a debate about this in the first week after I took over responsibility for the commission. In fact, there was difficulty in filling some positions and the commission is advertising for some of the upgraded positions again. They were upgraded to carry senior and significant responsibility in monitoring some pretty touchy areas. They were justified by the Cabinet Committee on Establishment.

Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, I wish to return to one of my favourite subjects at the moment. I refer to poker machines or, more precisely, video gaming

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machines. What processes does the government have in place to authorise the allocation of poker machines to clubs? Secondly, what procedures does it have in place to ensure that, once the machines are in the clubs, they are run effectively? For example, I have heard a rumour, and I must say it is only a rumour, that it is very easy to alter the odds on the video gaming machines and that some less than scrupulous club managements have been known to do that in order to get a better return for the club. Does the commission set a minimum rate of return to the punter on video gaming machines or is that a matter that is left up to the club itself? From what I can see, there do not seem to be any guidelines set in regulations.

Mr Coulter: Yes, there are.

Mr SMITH: Well, it would be good to hear the answer to that. Where is it stated, as distinct from its being implied or perhaps seen to be in the spirit of a legal agreement, that casinos have a monopoly on cash payouts on video gaming machines?

Mr FINCH: The allocation of video gaming machines is carried out by the commission on application. It has total control over the number and type of machines and the issuing of the permit to instal the machines. It has a specific unit to monitor the operation of the machines. The expected returns are set down by it.

Mr Smith: What is the rate?

Mr FINCH: It is either 10% or 11% to the house. That is, in fact, what it is to the casinos. We have reports from time to time that machines have been tampered with. Inspectors can make an inspection if they do not pick it up in their routine inspection. The machines are not monitored to the same extent as poker machines and cash machines in the casinos where there is a significant level of inspection by the in-house people as well as almost continual inspection by the commission's officers. .

There are specific provisions in each of the 2 areas but I do not have the specific reference with me. The exclusivity of games is unspecified in the basic agreement itself. However, where games are approved for the casino to run, it has exclusivity over those games. Amongst the games that have been approved for the casino to run are slot machines or gaming machines. That definition covers all of that broad band, whether they are real poker machines, video games or whatever, played for what must be cash prizes. The clubs quite clearly have specific approval for those gaming machines or video machines with non-cash prizes. That is where the separation occurs.

Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, obviously there is a basic disagreement between the minister and myself on this matter. From the way the minister has answered the question, it is quite clear that he is relying not on the formal written agreement between the casinos and the government, but some other document. Perhaps it is a legal opinion or legal advice. I ask whether he would be prepared to table that legal advice so that we could have a look at it.

I am aware that there is currently some pressure being mounted by the Australian Hotels Association for video gaming machines to be made available to hotels. I think the government has received formal representation. Has the government considered this matter? I believe section 37 of the Lotteries and Gaming Act provides that clubs and other approved bodies are eligible to apply for video gaming machines. Does that mean that 'other approved bodies' includes hotels?

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Mr FINCH: Mr Chairman, in line with the current policy of government, we have restricted the use of video gaming machines to clubs. However, Cabinet has asked me to prepare a paper covering the broad range of issues in relation to video machines, poker machines, slot machines - whatever you want to call them - in all facilities, including clubs, hotels and casinos.

A number of issues have been raised publicly, including the potential for machines to be leased from the casino to hotels, but I understand that there are problems with that in relation to our current regulations or legislation. The answer is that, under current policy, we are not permitting machines in hotels. I have been asked to prepare an options paper for Cabinet, in terms of where we might go from here.

Mr Smith: What about my first question?

Mr FINCH: As to tabling the legal agreement itself?

Mr Smith: No, not the legal agreement, the legal advice that you have.

Mr FINCH: The legal advice. I will take that request on notice. I would not be prepared to commit myself to tabling such advice. I am more than happy to explain what the clauses refer to and so forth but it is not the norm to make commitments to table opinions from the Department of Law and I will not be doing so before making further reference to the matter. I will take that part of the question on notice.

Mr EDE: Mr Chairman, I would like to know where the figure appears for the amount gained from the sale of vehicles impounded and sold under liquor licence legislation~ What were the receipts during the last financial year and what are the estimated receipts for this year?

I note in the Treasurer's Annual Financial Statements for 1988-89 that the estimated receipts from liquor licences and fees was $9.3m. Actual receipts, however, were only $5.1m, as can be seen on page 11 of the Treasurer's Annual Financial Statements for 1989-90. The difference between estimated and actual receipts is about $4m, which is very substantial. I am wondering whether this is due a sudden outbreak in abstemiousness on the part of Territorians and whether it is to be encouraged or deplored in light of our problems with covering health costs on the one hand and our overall revenue-raising difficulties on the other. I note that this year's figure represents a return to previous levels and that may be because of a one-off cost. If it is a one-off cost because of a change in the definition of 'financial years', at what stage will we recoup the $4m that we have lost?

Mr FINCH: Mr Chairman, I believe that receipts from the sale of seized vehicles go into the Consolidated Fund and therefore do not show up in the budget for the Racing, Gaming and Liquor Commission.

Mr Ede: Everything goes into the Consolidated Fund.

Mr FINCH: Mr Chairman, it is a sad fact of life that the Treasurer grabs the lot, so

Mr Ede: It must go via somewhere.

Mr FINCH: As for trying to separate that figure, the Treasurer may have some means at his disposal. J do not know.

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The simple explanation for the difference in terms of receipts from liquor fees is that we changed the collection year. Previously, the end of the collection period tallied with the end of the financial year. The collection period was brought back to 1 January, the end of the calendar year,. and we dropped 6 months revenue for that period.

Mr Coulter: It comes in line with the national system.

Mr FINCH: Yes.

Mr EDE: It goes into the Consolidated Fund •••

Mr CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable member has had 2 periods for his questions.

Mr EDE: I have not.

Mr Coulter: Yes you have.

Mr Ede: Rubbish! I have only had one.

Mr FINCH: Make it easy and I will give you another.

Mr EDE: Mr Chairman, to say that the amount collected from the sale of vehicles forfeited under the liquor legislation goes into the Consolidated Fund is to state the obvious. On the way, the amount must go through a revenue account. I was always led to believe that that revenue account formed part of the funds of the Racing, Gaming and Liquor Commission, which is the body that decides whether a vehicle is to be sold or not. If the honourable minister does not have the information available and cannot obtain it at short notice, I would be happy for him to take the question on notice and provide the information within the next 10 days or so. I am after the amount received last year •••

Mr Finch: Not very much.

Mr EDE: I know that it is not very much, particularly when one considers the cost to communities through the loss of transport, their only means of communication, a loss which causes a great deal of pain and suffering not to mention the social and economic costs as communities attempt to find the funds to replace confiscated vehicles. I have no doubt that, in terms of the amount received by the government from the sale of these' vehicles, the whole enterprise is grossly uneconomic. That is another reason why the government should put an end to the practice as soon as possible. As I said, I would like the minister to advise me of the amount that was actually received during the last financial year and the amount which the government estimates it will receive in the present financial year.

Mr FINCH: Mr Chairman, it is the same with the police. They do not keep track of what happens with the court fines either.

Mr Smith: What?

Mr FINCH: The moneys go from the court to the Receiver of Territory Moneys. Regardless of that •..

Mr Ede: NT courts, fines and costs, estimate 1.9m, actual $2.128m.

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Mr CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr FINCH: I was simply going to say, Mr Chairman, that I will undertake to obtain the information from the Treasurer, if that is humanly possible, and supply it to the member for Stuart next week.



Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, it is at this stage of the night that I have to voice my protest about the stupidity of this exercise. I voice it on behalf of the senior public servants who have spent many hours waiting in the gallery tonight and I voice it particularly on behalf of the head of the Work Health Authority, Jim Moore, who has sat here patiently for a couple of hours waiting for what will be 3 or 4 simple questions. It is time that this parliament took stock of itself and put in place a more realistic procedure which would enable it to do its job effectively without making public servants attend in the gallery of this House at 2.20 am. How can that be productive? Where is the cost benefit? It is absolutely ridiculous. If that is not a good enough argument for us to go, right back to taws and to re-examine the basis for the conduct of this exercise, I do not know what is. It is deplorable that we have had to force a succession of senior public servants to stay here throughout the night and the early hours of the morning when, with a little thought and care, the exercise could have carried out much more effectively and efficiently.

Mr Chairman, I now turn to my brief questions on the Work Health Authority. Firstly, are there recorded sets of objectives for programs within the authority? If so, what are they and how is performance measured against them? Secondly, the trust fund balance has been run down from $87 000 to $1000. Where have those funds gone? Thirdly, the minister has mentioned a work health training and study grant scheme. Could he describe exactly what its function is and how much has been allocated to it? Fourthly, the minister has mentioned a media work safety campaign. Has his department any intention of compiling a manual of written information for employees, and how much has been allocated to this? Fifthly, and without notice, the government has been promising for some time now to introduce changes to the Work Health Act. When will we see those changes?

Mr McCARTHY: Mr Chairman, the Work Health Authority has 2 programs: Executive and Policy, and Operations. The Operations program comprises 3 operational divisions, each of which has specific objectives. The objectives of each are as follows:

(1) to support the overall goal of the authority by developing policies and procedures and implementing the legislative responsibilities of the authority; to protect persons at work against risk to health and safety; to promote a healthy and safe environment at all workplaces; to ensure the safe handling, manufacture, storage and conveyance of hazardous materials;

(2) to provide a central referral point for all occupational health and safety matters within the Northern Territory;

(3) to promote a coordinated and integrated approach among the government's inspecting authorities;

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(4) to conduct a review of current legislation and the making of codes of practice in liaison, where appropriate, with federal and state occupational health authorities; and

(5) to provide information or advice on occupational health and safety matters to employers and workers.

The Insurance and Compensation Division supports the overall goals of the authority by:

(1) ensuring claimants are aware of their rights to compensation and are compensated in accordance with the act;

(2) ensuring employers comply with the compulsory insurance provisions of the act;

(3) ensuring only insurers and self-insurers who comply with the act's provisions in respect of the philosophy, processes, payment and recoveries are approved to operate under the act;

(4) ensuring, through the Premiums Monitoring Committee, that premiums are rational and fair.

Medical and Rehabilitation Division aims:

(1) to promote the benefits of occupational rehabilitation to ensure early and appropriate referral to rehabilitation services;

(2) to ensure that all parties understand the philosophy of the Work Health Act and, in particular, develop active employer responsibility as the key to prevention of employment and early. return to work;

(3) to provide information on educational material on issues related to medical aspects of occupational rehabilitation, occupational health and safety compensation;

(4) to collect and analyse information on occupational rehabilitation and employment lnJuries, to identify rehabilitation service needs of the Territory's high risk industrial and occupational groups and to prioritise prevention programs; and

(5) to conduct and promote research on medical and rehabilitation aspects.

Mr Chairman, performance indicators for each objective have yet to be finally defined. In most cases, the extensive statistics maintained by the authority provide an indication of the relative performance of each division against particular objectives. However, many other factors also impact on these statistics and they are therefore not used as specific performance indicators.

The second question the Leader of the Opposition asked concerned the running down of the trust fund from $87 000 to $1000. He wants to know where those funds have gone. They have been spent in accordance with the budget. The $87 000 was money carried over in the trust fund from the previous year, and was budgeted for expenditure in the last financial year. In fact, Mr Chairman, that is what is done.

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The third question began by saying that I had mentioned a Work Health Training and Study Grant Scheme. That is true, and a very fine scheme, it is likely to be. The Work Health Training and Study Grant Scheme is a new grants program which, it is hoped, will generate sufficient interest to become an annual scheme. The scheme is intended to provide funds to assist outside bodies and individuals in the pursuit of work health related activities such as research studies into issues associated with particular Territory working environments, conduct of seminars, attendance at conferences and meetings, grants to educational institutions to initiate work health related courses, scientific research studies on tropical work health issues and so on. It may be that the funds will be used jointly with funds from other sources on particular projects or to wholly fund others. The purpose of the grants program is to expand the level of knowledge in the community on work health matters and to generally promote the principles of work health. That is a fine motive. To ensure maximum community involvement in the administration of the scheme, the allocation of the grants will be overseen by the Work ~ealth Ministerial Advisory Council. The council has already discussed the matter in general terms and the amount set aside this year is $25 000.

The final question asked by the Leader of the Opposition concerned the work health awareness campaign in the media. The proposed campaign will be directed mainly at upgrading the level of broad community awareness of respective responsibilities and obligations under the Work Health Act. It is intended to expand the initial effort mounted some time ago to focus on specific areas of the act, particularly occupational health and safety, insurance responsibilities and workers' compensation benefits and rehabilitation provisions. The authority will also be looking to penetrate particular targets which may have been omitted from the early measures, such as the rural and outlying communities and non-English speaking people. The authority already has in place a program to produce written information of benefit to employers as well as employees in the form of pamphlets, bulletins, bookl ets etc and thi s,' wi 11 be ma i nta i ned and expanded.

Work on amendments to the Work Health Act is progressing. It was hoped that they would be before the House by now but Cabinet will be considering those amendments shortly and, depending on its decision, a draft bill may be tabled for consideration.

Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, I must begin by congratulating the minister and the Work Health Authority for providing the first satisfactory answer to the basic question which we have asked in respect of every department and authority. r asked whether there were recorded sets of ob,iectivesfor programs within the authority and, if so, what they were and how performance was measured against them. Obviously, the minister's answer has been written in conjunction with, if not by, the Work Health Authority. It shows a grasp of what we mean by performance indicators and what the Hork Health Authority has done about putting performance indicators in place so that its objectives can be measured. I congratulate the authority. Perhaps it could act as a consultant to other departments which seem to have no idea of how to go about it.

Mr Chairman, I also wish to raise the vexed question of rehabilitation. In any work health program, the ouestion of getting people back to work is a vexed one. I do not think that anyone has a satisfactory answer. Opinions vary among employees, employers and insurance companies. I would be interested to know, however, whether there is a common government policy across all departments in respect of the approach to the rehabilitation of employees. There have been some horrific stories, both within government and

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in the private sector, about people being sent back to work and being given meaningless work which has basically forced them into early retirement. Quite clearly, if that happens, there is a loss to the entire community. We should all be looking at meaningful ways of getting people who have been injured at work back into the work force so that they are productive in their jobs, doing something useful and earning a living wage, if not better. I would be interested in what action the government has taken to provide a policy which ensures that departments handle the matter of rehabilitation as effectively as possible.

It is regrettable that we have had to rely on a union, the Federated Miscellaneous Workers Union, to provide a comprehensive manual for work health in the Northern Territory. Even after the Work Health Authority has been in p1 ace for 3 or 4 years, it still does not accept the responsibil ity of providing a comprehensive manual to cover all aspects of work health. I accept that the authority issues many brochures and pamphlets, but I certainly would have thought that it had a clear responsibility to issue a comprehensive manual. It is a shame that that job had to be left to the major union in the Northern Territory, but it is certainly to the union's credit that it has carried out the task.

Mr McCARTHY: The government does have a policy on rehabilitation across the public service and that policy is enshrined in the Work Health Act.

Mr Smith: Well, what is it?

Mr McCARTHY: I could not go into the details here and now but, if you would like to read the Work Health Act, you will see what the policy is. It is there.

Mr Smith: That does not wash.

Mr McCARTHY: In response to the Leader of the Opposition's comments about the comprehensive document issued by the Federated Miscellaneous Workers Union, I point out that most of its contents were gleaned from the Work Health Authority, which had a fair amount of input. The fact that it was issued by the union is not deplorable, Mr Chairman. It is a good thing.

Mr Smith: never said it was deplorable.

Mr McCARTHY: The fact that the government allows other institutions and private enterprise to do these things is certainly to be commended and there is no need to duplicate the work.



Mr TIPILOURA: The government talks about its commitment to community government and other local governing bodies. Why, then, has it introduced real cuts in its grants program, specifically a cut of $0.724m to community government and a cut of $1.2m to grants and subsidies to other local governing bodies? Can the minister explain the difference between the other local governing bodies' grants and subsidies and other local government administration and grants? Why has it been necessary to cut the first and to increase the allocation to the second? In the 'other grants' component of the other local government administration and grants activity, how much has been allocated to town camps and what is the increase on last year's allocation?

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Mr McCARTHY: Mr Chairman, the member for Arafura obviousl)1 has not fully understood the document in front of him when he says that there have heen real cuts. Whilst we have not received indexation on grants to the full amount of inflation, that has been the case right across the board. This government simply did not receive full indexation from the Commonwealth. It is rather difficult to hand on what we do not have.

Mr Smith: ·That is nonsense! Your total budget has increased by more than the rate of inflation.

Mr McCARTHY: It has not.

Mr Smith: It has so.

Mr McCARTHY: Not to the extent that you can fully index grants to other bodies.

Mr Smith: What you should be saying is that you put'your priorities elsewhere.

Mr McCARTHY: In fact, Mr Chairman, local government has done better than most other areas of government in terms of receiving a portion of indexation. From memory, the level of indexation we received was in the order of 2t%.

The honourable' member asked about the difference beb/een various categories of grants. The heading 'Community Government Grants and Subsidies' is self-explanatory. The next headin9 is 'Other Local Governing Bodies' Grants and Subsidies'. The 'other local governing bodies' are the 50-6dd local governing bodies which are not community governments. The next heading is 'Other Local Government Administration and Grants'. The allocation with the heading of 'Other Grants' refers to funds available for special purpose grants, such as electricity subsidies, grants for capital equipment and so forth. Those funds, which are not yet targeted for specific projects, appear under the heading of 'Other Local Government Administration and Grants'. Therefore, a decrease in 'Community Government Grants and Subsidies' and a decrease in 'Other Local Governing Bodies' Grants ahd Subsidies' does not mean that the overall allocation is lower than last year's.

~Iot every community will receive as much as it received last year. Some will get more and some will get less. We might, for example, have provided a special purpose grant to Lajamanu last year whilst, this year, it will not necessarily receive one. Perhaps Kalkaringi or Nguiu will receive a special purpose grant this year after not ~eceiving one last year. Whilst individual grants vary from year to year, the total amount is increased. Similarly, until the level of electricity subsidies are known, the amounts are h'eld as 'other grants'. The total amount has been increased by in the vicinity of 2.5% and this will be distributed once we have had a chance to look at the real need.

Mr Smith: This is the ultimate hypocrisy.

Mr McCARTHY: t~here is the hypocrisy in that?

Mr Smith: You increase your own budget by 8% and local government by 2.5%. That is the ultimate hypocrisy.

Mr McCARTHY: I have not increased my own budget by 8%.

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~r Smith: The overall Territory budget has gone up by 8%.

Mr McCARTHY: r~r Chairman, I will pick up that interjection. If there is an organisation in Australia which is providing grants to Aboriginal communities without overspending on its own administration, it would have to be the Office of Local Government, which 5pends only 11% of its overall funding on administration. About 89% goes directly to communities in the form of grants. The Department of Aboriginal Affairs, which does similar work, would spend about 60% of its budget on administration and 40% on grants to communities. We are doing a very good job in that regard. Does that answer the honourable member's questions?

Mr TIPILOURA: No. How much has been allocated to town camps?

Mr McCARTHY: There is no increase in the allocation to town camps this year. They are receiving exactly the same amount as they received last year. A major review of town camps is under way and, until such time as it is completed, it was thought appropriate that those grants remain at last year's levels.

Mr BAILEY: Mr Chairman, are there recorded sets of objectives for programs within the Department of Labour, Administrative Services and Local Government? If so, what are they and how is achievement measured against them? Can the minister provide details concerning the number of Aboriginal people employed in the public service and the number of people with disabilities employed in the public service? How.much has been allocated to programs which will ensure that people in those categories are provided with positive employment opportunities?

The minister has talked about the work being done by the Aboriginal Development Branch. Given the total demise of the branch last year, can the he indicate how much has been allocated to the branch's activities, how many positions exist and at what level, the extent of vacant positions in the branch and what the proposed program development involves in 1989-90?

In March and April of this year, the department conducted a census of Northern Territory private and government employment. Can the minister advise how many employers received the survey form and how many forms were returned? Can the minister further advise when the results of the survey will be finalised and when they will be made available?

Can the minister advise why the property management budget increased by 20% in 1989-90? Is the increase due to plans to upgrade existing properties or for rental of additional properties? Could the minister please provide,details.

Finally, what is the government's policy on allocations to staff development? Does the policy include targets? If so, how is achievement of targets monitored? What has the government's performance been in relation to the targets?

Mr McCARTHY: When I first took over responsibility for the portfolio of Labour and Administrative Services in early 1987, it was not so much a department as a range of functions inherited from other departments. I said that we needed a sense of direction and that the department's functions needed to be drawn together. The result was the production of a corporate plan. The process took something like 12 months and involved a great deal of effort and commitment. It involved almost the entire department and the resulting plan

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has been now in place for about 12 months. The corporate goals are fairly broad but each division also has specific goals.

The broad goals are: to be client oriented, qoa1 directed, resource efficient and effective performers; to promote equal opportunity throughout the community in employment, access to and delivery of services; to promote best use of human resources in the public sector throuqh development of effective management policies; to promote and facilitate community self-management in local affairs; to provide appropriate administrative services to support government operations; Bnd to facilitate the attainment of a skilled labour force relevant to the needs of the Territory.

As I said, each division has its own goals and objectives and these are monitored regularly. This is a dynamic document. It changes from time to time. Any decent corporate plan is not static. It improves and develops as time passes. That is happening. I receive regular reports on the achievement of the goals set down in this document and, if it is thought that those goals should change, I also receive that information.

Mr Chairman, copies of the corporate plan have been given to members of the opposition who have requested them. It is an excellent corporate plan.

Mr Smith: Where are the performance indicators?

Mr McCARTHY: The performance indicators are shown within the document. Those indicators come to me in the first instance and are reported on as time goes by. At present, the plan has been in operation for about 12 months. It is a little early at this stage to be saying that we have achieved all the goals. Many will take some time to achieve but the department ic; well on the way in relation to others. For example, one page deals with the Administration Branch. It sets out the goal, the objectives, the strategies, the resources, the timing and the performance indicators. The member for Nhu1unbuy has a copy of the plan if members opposite would like to see it. That answers the question on corporate goals.

I now turn to the question on Aboriginal employment in the public service, the number of people with disabilities employed in the public service and the amount allocated to programs to ensure that they are provided with positive employment opportunities. The House will be aware that an equal opportunity survey was administered through the public service in May and June of this year. Questions related ,to Aboriginality and disability were included in the questionnaire. Across the service, 63% of employees responded to the 13 ?22 survey forms distributed to all areas excludin9 the Power and Water Authority and the Northern Territory University. 8435 people completed and returned part 2 of the survey. Of these, 39 or 0.5% identified as Torres Strait Islanders, 480 or 6% identified as Aboriginal, and 352 or 4% identified as disabled. It should be noted that there could be definite skews in these figures depending on whether or not the responses were representative of all areas. That will emerge in more detailed analysis. Within my department, in the current financial year, $800 000 has been specifically allocated to provide Aboriginals with positive employment opportunity and $180 000 for people with disabilities.

The next question concerned the Aboriginal Development Branch and, quite wrongly, referred to the total demise of the branch last year. The branch has never suffered a demise. At one stage, a number of people resigned from the branch, but it never suffered a demise. It has always been maintained and continues to be maintained in terms of staff numbers. The structure of the

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Aboriginal Development Branch is as follows. It has an E2 Assistant Director, and an officer is acting in that position at present; an A9 Training Program Monitor position, which has a substantive occupant; an A9 Funding Monitor position, which is presently filled by an officer in an acting capacity and which has been advertised; an A9 Training Needs Monitor position, which has a substantive occupant; an A9 Southern Region Coordinator, which is vacant and has been advertised following the departure of the occupant earlier in the year; an A7 Training Coordinator position, which has a substantive occupant; an A6 Computer Coordinator position, which has a substantive occupant; and an A4 Administrative Support position, which is a temporary position with an acting occupant. That is the current position.

Another question concerned the Remote Area Program. It asked what programs are actually in place. Probably the best way to handle that would be to look at the regional allocations in the branch. East Arnhem has received $73 000 for access training and the Remote Area Program. Darwin has received $186 000 for clerical group training, the Remote Area Program, community training seminars and video production. The Katherine region has received $160 000 for clerical group training, access training and the Remote Area Program. Tennant Creek has received $120 000 in access training in the Remote Area Program. Alice Springs has received the largest allocation of $248 000, for clerical group training, access training, the Remote Area Program and OLG training identification. Those allocations are split into further categories and I will not go into detail. However, it is all there.

Mr Chairman, the next question concerned the census carried out by the department earlier this year, and the answer to the question is that the number of survey forms received by employers was 6981. Thus, 6981 were sent out. The number returned voluntarily, on the first count, was 3099 or 44% of forms distributed. The number of forms filled out subsequently as a result of following up non-respondents by telephone was 3531, or 51%. Therefore, there has been a total response to date of 6630 or 95%. I think that that is a very good performance.

We are currently over two-thirds of the way through the initial data input and the data is still to be finalised in respect of a few businesses and a considerable number of government departments. As a consequence, it has been necessary to put back by a couple of months the initial target date of September. There is considerable work involved, and I am aware that the opposition receives information on this from time to time. However, it has also become clear that a significant proportion of the information on questionnaires has been lacking in accuracy. This, in turn, has caused problems during data entry. As a result, once all the information has been put on computer, additional time will be required for checking and crosschecking the data for accuracy. At this stage, we can only speculate on how'much additional time this will take. However, the current objective is to have an operable database by late December.

The department is well aware that once the database is declared usable, it is as accurate as we can reasonably make it. Otherwise, the exercise will have had little point. This information has been a long time in coming and it would be foolish to attempt short cuts in an effort to meet earlier estimates of time to complete the project. In short, it is seen as imperative that we do not sacrifice quality for an early result.

Once the database is up and running, it is envisaged that there will be a number of requests for specific tables and every effort will be made to meet them. However, it should be borne in mind that the Department of Labor and

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Administrative Services has given an undertaking of confidentiality to providers of information. This being the case, it should be noted that requests will not be met if the information required enables the association of business details with any particular operator and thus compromises this undertaking.

Mr Chairman, the next question concerned property management. The property management budget for 1989-90 has been increased by 15%. I cannot remember the figure that the Leader of the Opposition indicated ••.

Mr Smith: 20%.

Mr McCARTHY: It is 15% increase, Mr Chairman, from $21 160m in 1988-89 to $24.541m in 1989-90. An analysis of that is as follows. In respect of ongoing services, the allocation of $21.541m represents an increase of 1.8% to cover the cost of utilities to government-owned premises - that is, power, cleaning, security and grounds maintenance - and util iti.es to eXisting .leased premises. Under new initiatives, the allocation of $2.8m in 1989-90 represents an increase of 13.2% to cover the cost of rental increases on existing premises and the cost of rentals and utilities associated with new leases.

The increases in the property management budget are not attributable to upgrading of existing premises as this activity is administered by the Department of Transport and Works for the user departments concerned.

Mr Chairman, I think the question on cleaning, security and grounds maintenance has been answered. Was there a further question that I have not answered?

Mr Smith: Staff development.

Mr McCARTHY: Right. It is unanswered. I thought I was going to get away with it.

Mr Chairman, I was asked whether the government policy on allocations to staff development includes targets and, if so, how the achievement of targets is monitored. The answer is that this series of questions needs to be considered in 2 parts because there are significant developments, proposed in relation to staff development and training, as is indicated by the allocation of funding to the Department of Labour and Administrative Services. The government's policy to date has been that staff development is an integral component of the effective management of its employees. The determination of priorities for staff development has been largely the responsibility of chief executive officers in relation to their own agencies, with appropriate allocations being included with the agency budget. Similarly, target groups and achievement objectives have been the responsibility of chief executive officers in relation to corporate goals and objectives of the agency.

The Department of Labour and Administrative Services has had specific responsibilities in the development of personnel management skills across the NTPS. In targeting this group of employees, emphasis has been placed on the development of training packages to be utilised by the departments in the training of their staff. In 1989-90, the government will place significant priority on the development and the implementation of training and development programs for staff. To this end, a subcommittee of the Coordination Committee has been formed to advise the Public Service Commissioner and chief executive officers in relation to staff development training. Provision has been made

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for the employment, on a short-term basis, of an adviser to assist chief executive officers to develop a staff development and training strategy appropriate to the needs and priorities of the departments with respect to goals and objectives of government.

The Department of Labour, Administrative Services and Local Government will continue in its role of developing the personnel management skills of the service. Targets will be identified, and the achievement of these reported in annual reports of the respective agencies. In 1988-89, expenditure on staff development and training across the NTPS approximated 2% of total wages and salaries. This compares favourably with expenditure levels of other public sectors in Australia, and exceeds the level that the Commonwealth put on its proposed training level of 1% growing to 1.5%. That survey has recently been completed in the NTPS and indicates that we are well in front of the game.

Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, as I said by way of interjection, the allocation to local government reveals the total hypocrisy of this government. Every year, the government squeals like a stuck pig when it goes to Canberra and is squeezed by the federal government. I do not complain about that because there is no doubt that the Northern Territory government'has been squeezed very hard indeed by the federal government. However, having done that, the government then turns around and asks the local government bodies of the Northern Territory to take more than their fair share of those cuts. In the budget papers, we find that the overall budget allocation for the Northern Territory government this financial year has risen from $1660m to '$1794m, which represents an increase of about 8%. In the minister's own words, this year's increase to local government bodies in the Territory is 2.5%.

The Northern Territory government is engaged in exactly the same exercise as that of which it accuses the Commonwealth - squeezing the lower tier of government. It is blatant hypocrisy. Of course, what the government is trying to do is to pass on some costs so that local government bodies will have to raise their own rates and charges. It prefers to do that rather than taking a sensible attitude and restricting its own spending. We cannot go on forever receiving less and less money from the Commonwealth whilst increasing our own levels of expenditure above the rate of inflation. That is just a blatant nonsense.

Mr Chairman, I have a couple of specific

Mr Coulter: It is also not happening.

Mr SMITH: It is happening. Have a look at the figures. The figures speak for themselves.

Mr Coulter: What did we get from the Commonwealth this year, compared with last year?

Mr SMITH: Less.

Mr Coulter: Right. And where did the money come from for us?

Mr SMITH: Cash balances. That is right. You have increased your total budget by more than the rate of inflation, but you are not passing the increase to local governments. You are squeezing them. You have exactly the attitude to them which you complain the federal government has to you.

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Let me have a look at property management, Mr Chairman. This was a beaut little exercise. The Minister for Labour, Administrative Services and Local Government tried to tell me that the increase was 15% whereas it it is closer to 20%. He should start by having a look at the figures.

Mr Hatton: ~/hat were the numbers that you are talking about?

Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, in terms of accommodation, which is what I was talking about rather than the global figure for property management, the actual expenditure last year was $20.75m and this year it is $24.34m.

Mr Hatton: Property management?

Mr SMITH: I am talking about accommodation, not administration. There has been an increase of $3.5m which, of course, is closer to 20% than 15%. But that is by the way. I accept the point that, in my written question, I did mention property management. My point is that we have this glib reference to new accommodation initiatives of $2.8m which is an increase of well over 10%. The public service has not grown. It still has about 15 000 members. Yet, for some reason, it requires 10% extra accommodation. I would like to know what the new leases are for. Perhaps the Minister for Labour, Administrative Services and Local Government might care to explain why we are spending $2.8m, an increase of more than 10%, on what he rather cutely calls 'new initiatives' in the housing area.

A member: Super high rent increases.

Mr SMITH: They are new initiatives, not rent rises.

Mr McCarthy: Yes, because we are forced to go back to new initiatives.

Mr SMITH: You can get up and explain that if you like.

Mr Chairman, my next question concerns the area of staff development and I think the broad meaning was that 2% is allocated in general to staff development within the Northern Territory Public Service.

Mr McCarthy: Yes, he is right. He is listening.

Mr SMITH: He has trouble doing 1 thing at a time let alone 2.

Mr Chairman, my question is as follows. Is that 2% across the board the target which the government is aiming for in terms of staff development? Is there a target level? Secondly, what is happening in those departments or statutory authorities where the 2% figure has not been achieved? Obviously, if it is an average figure, there must be a number of departments and statutory authorities where it has not been achieved.

I think we all know, Mr Chairman, that the efforts of government departments in terms of staff development are somewhat patchy. From what I know, the best by far is the Department of Transport and Works and for that we should congratulate people like Col Fuller who implemented a program running over a number of years in that department. That particular staff development has borne fruit in a striking way as people who began in Transport and Works have moved into other departments to fill senior positions throughout the service. The experience in the Department of Transport and Works shows that money spent on staff development brings results.

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I hope that the minister can give me an answer which will clarify the government's target for staff development and its approach in the case of departments and statutory authorities which, at present, are not meeting target levels.

Mr McCARTHY: Mr Chairman, I can answer those questions. In response to the very spurious view that the Leader of the Opposition made in respect of local government grants, can I indicate that the financial assistance grant from the Commonwealth this year was up by 2.45%. It has nothing to do with the grants we give. The Commonwealth grant to local government in the Northern Territory was up ?.45% on last year's figure.

Mr Smith: Yes, so what?

Mr McCARTHY: In actual fact, Mr Chairman, the figure of 2.5% which I used earlier in referring to local government grants from the Territory government was incorrect. It was a figure which I worked out in my head in budget Cabinet, but it turns out that 5.18% is the actual increase •••

Mr Smith: That looks a little better.

Mr McCARTHY: in local government grants.

Mr Smith: If you did not mislead the House, we would not have these arguments, would we?

Mr McCARTHY: Oh, come on. That is rubbish. I indicated earlier that, from memory, the figure was about 2.5%. I did not say that it was a hard and fast figure, Mr Chairman.

Mr Smith: Well, we know about your memory.

Mr McCARTHY: I know a little about the way your head works too, and it is a bit strange.

Mr Chairman, the level of increase in Territory funding to local government this year is 5.18%. We are not in any way taking money from one group of bodies and giving it to another or unreasonably withholding moneys in the 'Other Grants' category for a period. Moneys in that category are held for a very good reason, which is that the split-up has not yet been worked out. They will be allocated in grants to community governments and other local governing bodies, or the vast majority will. Mr Chairman, you will probably be aware that the Northern Territory government no longer provides operational subsidies to municipal councils. In that respect, we have come into line with the states. However, during the last couple of years, we have increased our grants to community councils and other local governing bodies. We will continue with that this. year.

The target for staff development is 2%. As I pointed out, the figure is better than the training levy proposed by the Commonwealth. In fact, I seem to remember reading a figure a few days ago which was over 2%, perhaps in the region of 2.13%. However, we aim for 2%. Certainly, some departments and authorities have not yet achieved that figure. A range of staff development options will be considered by Cabinet in the very near future and it is certainly my hope that we will be able to raise staff development funding to 2% in all departments and authorities in the very near future. It is something that will be done in consultation with the various departments, and the role of the Public Service Commissioner will be that of a coordinator and adviser.

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In relation to the concerns of the Leader of the Opposition about new initiatives under accommodation, rent reviews are included. That is not our desire, but simply the result of the way Treasury operates. It insists that rent reviews are new initiatives. We have to seek funds for rent reviews at budget and they appear under new initiatives. The substantial part of that $2.8m is rent review. I have been very careful to ensure that new leases are not major and, in fact, we have maintained our new rental space to a minimum over the last year or so. The figure of $2.8m, which represents an increase of 13.2%, includes rental increases for existing premises, and costs of rentals and utilities associated with new leases. They are fairly minimal.

Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, I am not really happy with that last answer.

A member: How many •••

Mr SMITH: I am allowed 2 periods, aren't I? Or have you changed the rules, like you change the rules on other things?

Mr CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, as I said before I was rudely interrupted, I am not particularly happy with that answer. I am not sure that the honourable minister will be able to explain the matter fully here but there seems to be something of a contradiction in what he is saying. He says that the increase of $2.8m or 13.2% is due essentially to rent reviews, with only a small component for new buildings. When the CPI in the Northern Territory is running at about 6%, and when one considers that not all of the government stock is up for rent review at the one time, it is very difficult for me to understand why the minister claims that a figure of 11% or 12% is taken up in rent reviews. That is obviously a long and complicated story, and he may not be able to give a simple answer. I would certainly like an answer at some time.

I come to a matter that has not been touched on so far. There has been some concern among public service unions about the impact on recruitment to and retention in the public service of the removal of the air fares entitlement the year before last. Has the minister's department done any assessment on the impact of the removal of that entitlement on recruitment and retention of staff in the Northern Territory? I am particularly interested in the retention area. Have retention rates been affected as a result of the removal of the air fares entitlement. Have any studies been done in that area?

Mr McCARTHY: Mr Chairman, I am prepared to seek more information on the question of property rentals and to provide it to the Leader of the Opposition as soon as it is available to me.

The question of recruitment and retention has been of some concern to the government. We have been monitoring the area very closely and, in fact, have developed a range of options which will be presented to Cabinet in the very near future. It is very hard to identify the impact of particular factors on retention because retention has always been a problem in the Northern Territory. Present indications, however, are that retention is improving. In fact, rather than seeing a continuation of the 22% to 23% losses that we were experiencing prior to 1987, the situation has improved in the last 12 months. It is possible that some people with air fare entitlements have been discouraged from leaving the service because of the problem of not being able to regain entitlements if they sought to rejoin at a later stage.

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Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, on behalf of my industrious colleague, the shadow minister for primary industry and fisheries, I ask the following questions. Would the minister advise on recorded sets of objectives for the department and the established method of measuring achievement or failure of individual programs against those objectives?

Would the minister advise details of the costs, since 1981, of the fertiliser subsidy scheme? Would he advise of the costs, since inception, of the guaranteed minimum price scheme, the crop contract scheme, the bull purchase scheme, the subsidisation of freight handling and storage charges on grain, and all crop underwriting schemes, on a financial year-by-year basis broken down into ADMA and non-ADMA farmer and producer categories? Could the minister provide detail of the actual expenditure, on a financial year-by-year basis since 1980-81, on research on the following crops: rice, kenaf and cashews? Would the minister provide details of the companies which have been involved in the development of the cashew industry in the Territory since 1985-86? Have commercial arrangements been negotiated between the government and any of those companies? Have land options been granted to any of these companies. If so, when, and what were the terms of the agreements? Have the terms of those agreements been fulfilled?

Would the minister advise on the erratic expenditure patterns over the last couple of years culminating in a budgeted decline in funding during 1989-90 for the following areas: animal health, plant health, quarantine research establishments, economic research and support services, horticulture, weeds, fisheries research and support services to fisheries, plant and animal industries? Would the minister provide details of the turnover rate of staff in the positions of veterinary officer and stock inspector since the 1982-83 financial year and the average period for which positions were left vacant while replacement staff were found?

Would the minister provide details of the numbers of cattle and buffalo shot out since 1982-83 in pursuit of BTEC? Would the minister provide details of the amounts paid for helicopter charter and ammunition used for surveys and shoot-outs in pursuit of BTEC since 1982-83? Would the minister provide details for the 1989-90 allocation to BTEC by type - that is, type A, type B, type C, type D, type E and type F - and the predi.ctions for those categories in 1990-91 and 1991-92? Would the minister provide details of the actual and potential cost of compulsory destocking for the Barkly, Victoria River, Katherine and Top End regions?

Would he provide details of the amount of money spent, since its purchase, on capital improvements and operations for the Tortilla Flats Research Farm? Could the minister provide details of research programs that will be affected by its closure, the amounts of money spent on those programs to date and the amount that will be recovered through the sale of assets?

Mr REED: Mr Chairman, my department's operations are dictated by the policies laid down by this government. One of those policies is to involve industry in determining and monitoring research activities. This is achieved through various industry advisory committees which meet with my department to determine priorities for programs for the following year and review the progress and results of projects carried out in the preceding 12 months.

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The department's objectives are currently being compiled into a corporate plan which is to be published early in the new year. The corporate plan will include performance indicators based on expected outcomes agreed to by the various advisory committees. The BTEC strategic plan, which I am sure the member for Stuart is familiar with - and if he is not, he certainly should be - provides an excellent example, as do plans for other projects such as those relating to buffalo and kenaf. The indicators will be further developed as needs arise.

The second question relates to matters which date back as far as 1980-81. It sets a bit of a precedent in terms of matters raised in the committee stage of the budget. If the member for Stuart compiled these questions, he is simply demonstrating his ignorance of the primary industries sector. It is not my intention to try to provide answers to these questions because I believe that they are well outside the scope of this year's Appropriation Bill. The member for Stuart has had more than ample opportunity to avail himself of offers of briefings with my department in which he could have pursued issues of that nature.

The third question asks for detail of the actual expenditure, on a year-by-year basis since 1980-81, on research on rice, kenaf and cashews. Similarly, I have no intention of pursuing that in the way suggested by the oppos it ion.

The fourth question asks for details of the companies which have been involved in the development of the cashew industry in the Territory since 1985-86. There has been a joint research effort involving the Department of Primary Industry and Fisheries, Nabisco and CSIRO. Questions as regards acquisition of land for any purpose of this nature would be more suitably directed to the Minister for Lands and Housing. The honourable member might care to pursue that matter at another time.

The fifth question asks for advice on erratic expenditure patterns over the last couple of years culminating in a budgeted decline in funding during 1989-90 for the following areas: animal health, plant health, quarantine research establishments, economic research and support services, horticultural and fisheries research, and support services to fisheries, plant and animal industry.

The changes in budget allocation for certain programs of the Department of Primary Industry and Fisheries are a result of a combination of factors. For example, several one-off projects completed in 1988-89 naturally enough have been excluded from the 1989-90 budget. Projects completed included special assistance to the horticultural industry. I must touch on a little note that I received from the Leader of the Opposition in this regard. He slipped back into his old teaching ways and sent me a note with a formula of how to work out deductions because he made a mistake in his budget speech in relation to his allegations about a dramatic reduction in horticultural funding within the department. That explains fairly concisely what the position was there, Mr Chairman. Other one-off programs included the upgrading of the chemistry laboratory at $150 000 and Droving Australia at $158 000. There were a number of other such projects. There have also been changes in the organisational structure of the department and the movement of staff and projects are reflected in the budget.

The Leader of the Opposition mentioned that there was a reduction in the weeds program budget. In reality, the assistance component of the budget has been moved to the Primary Industry Assistance activity. That takes account of

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the assumption that has been made in that regard. In all cases, there are valid reasons for reductions to program budgets for the department. It is incorrect to assume that a reduction in budget allocations will automatically lead to a reduction in the level of service. If the Leader of the Opposition cares to look at the programs and activities which have been focused on - plant industry, animal industry, research establishments and fisheries - he will see that in fact there has been an overall increase of $1.5m, even if the reductions for the one-off projects are allowed for.

The next question requested details of the turnover rate of veterinary officers and stock inspectors since 1982-83. The Minister for Labour, Administrative Services and Local Government touched on this issue. The Territory experiences problems of this nature. Vets might come to the Territory to gain experience either in the tropics or in some form of animal husbandry in which they have not had experience elsewhere. Sometimes, having gained such experience, they move on. That is not always the case but it certainly contributes to the problems that we face, not only with vets but with other professional people. As for committing the resources of officers of my department to compiling a long list of the number of veterinary officers and stock inspectors who have passed through the department since 1982, I really cannot imagine what the honourable member would do with it even if he received it. I am not prepared to commit that effort. The same applies to the next question, which asked for details of the numbei of cattle and buffalo shot out since 1982-83 in pursuit of BTEC.

The eighth question sought details of the amounts paid for helicopter charter and ammunition used for surveys and shoot-outs in pursuit of BTEC since 1982-83. The member for Stuart has asked most of these questions previously and many of them have been answered.

Mr Ede: Where?

Mr REED: Of course, there are opportunities for him as I have indicated already, to avail himself of the information if he will only take up my offer. I cannot say how many times I have made the offer •..

Mr Ede: right.

am taking up the offer of the parliament right now, which is my

Mr REED: ..• of a full briefing for the honourable member to inform himself about the issue.

In this committee stage, we are talking about the 1989-90 financial year. We are not talking about 1982 or 1983. Another question seeks information from as far back as 1957. If that does not set a precedent, what doe~?

The ninth question asks for details of the allocation in 1989-90 to BTEC by various types. The allocations for 1989-90 by type are: type A, operational, $7 085 177; type B, compensation, $2 505 143; type C, assistance, $2 457 783; type D, assistance, $742 941; type E, assistance, $500 000; and type F, assistance, $500 000. The bottom line there is $13 791 044. Projections for 1990-91 and 1991-92 are currently being finalised and I am therefore unable to provide any information in response to that question at this time.

The tenth question asked for details of the actual and potential cost of compulsorily de-stocking the Bark1y, Victoria River, Katherine and Top End regions. That certainly ventures into the realm of the hypothetical. The

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need to de-stock any area or any property would depend on the progress of the program in that area or on a particular property. Until there is a breakdown or some other problem where de-stocking action is required, it is impossible to look into a crystal ball and try to indicate, even in the broadest terms, what the requirements in that regard might be.

The eleventh question asks for details of the amount of money spent on Tortilla Flats Research Farm, details of the research program that will be affected by its closure, the amounts of money sunk into these programs to date and the amount that will be recovered through the sale of assets. Tortilla Flats was opened in 1957. Even if we had the luxury of sufficient staff resources to deploy in seeking all the information requested, I doubt that it would be available here. Perhaps some of it would be in the archives in Canberra.

Sufficient time has been given, in leading up to the closure, to allow current projects to be finalised. The results of this research will continue to be available to industry, as will some of the machinery used in rice production.

In terms of the closure of the Tortilla Flats Research Farm, both the member for Stuart and the member for Koolpinyah are overlooking the main point. As the member for Koolpinyah stated, there is a demand for about 1000 t of rice per year in the Territory. About 100 t of rice was grown here last year. Of that, about 60 t was grown on the research farm and the remainder by private growers. It is clear that, if someone wants to grow rice, he will have a market. There is no need for further research into rice-growing. The department has more than enough information, on the basis of research undertaken to date, to be able to advise prospective rice growers. I am sure that the member for Stuart will join me in hoping that someone will get out there and grow rice. I am unable to give a figure in respect of the disposal of the assets at auction. I would suggest, however, that a reasonable estimate would be in the region of $0.5m.

Mr EDE: Mr Cha i rman, I wi 11 attempt to keep my temper and keep my voi ce down in responding to a minister who, once again, has demonstrated his total incompetence, his inability to handle his portfolio, and his arrogance in dealing with the people who are hoping, through me, to obtain answers to some of the questions which they are asking about the development of primary production, which is very important for the Northern Territory and which underpins our whole economy. They have asked me to obtain various answers and the honourable minister is refusing to provide details.

However, Mr Chairman, let us go on from there. I ask the honourable minister to refer to page 9 of the Treasurer's Annual Financial Statements. He knows that I intend to ask these questions. I directed them to the Minister for Industries and Development, who said that they would be directed more appropriately to the Minister for Primary Industries and Fisheries. I would like an explanation of the following. The 1988-89 estimate for recoveries under the crop contract scheme was $25 000, whereas the actual amount recovered was $316 000. The estimate for receipts from BTEC loan requirements was nil, whereas $879 000 was actually recovered.

, .

Page 11 of the Treasurer's Annual Financial Statements shows that there the estimated amount of receipts from property rental was $110 000 whereas actual receipts were $48 000. For BTEC administration, estimated receipts were $810 000 whereas $217 000 was received. I ask the minister to explain that. I also ask him to explain why page 189 of Budget Paper No 4 shows

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actual expenditure on BTEC as $16.858m whereas page 45 of the Treasurer's Annual Financial Statements gives the actual expenditure as $18.045m.

The minister advised that he has industry assistance committees which are assisting him to put together a corporate plan. That is an excellent way to go about formulating the plan. The BTEC strategy goes part of the way. Unfortunately, it has an end point without intermediate points. What are the plans? What are the different points that he is hoping to achieve along that road so that, before mid-1992, he can see whether he is in front or behind? That was the purpose of the questions that I asked about the projections for 1990-91 and 1991-92 as regards types A, B, C, D, E and F. I wished to determine whether he has a total figure to work towards over the period and whether, at this stage, he has developed some projections as to how that amount of money will be spent within those various areas over the next couple of financial years in order to achieve the goal. It is a perfectly reasonable question and one which any half-competent administrator of a department would have tackled already.

It is also the reason why I asked the minister about the actual and potential costs of compulsory de-stocking in the Barkly, Victoria River, Katherine and Top End districts. Obviously, he cannot use a crystal ball and determine the actual costs before they have occurred. However, it relates back to the type to which I have referred and a best-guess estimate of what those costs would be.

Mr Reed: Oh, a best guess.

Mr EDE: Yes. That is all that you can do at this stage when you are 3 years from the completion date.

Mr Smith: That is what the whole estimates debate is about.

Mr EDE: Exactly. What is the whole thing about but a best guess? We are here to try to determine the best guesses and the basis for them, and how last year's best guesses measured up to the ultimate reality. That is the name of the game. That is what I asked for in my question, which the minister refused to answer, saying that it was simply hypothetical. Now that he possibly understands what I am getting at in those 2 questions, I hope that he will be able to answer them.

With regards to the fertiliser subsidy scheme, the crop contract scheme, the bull purchase scheme, freight, handling and storage charges and the crop underwriting schemes, the honourable minister is unable to provide the amounts for all of those years. I would be surprised if some of those programs had been in existence for that many years. What I would ask, which is the same as we have asked of other ministers, is for him to provide what he can and to work back for as many years

Mr Reed: Why don't you get the annual reports and do your own legwork?

Mr EDE: It will give an idea of how the movements have been in that area. Obviously, programs with kenaf do not date back to 1980-81. However, the rice program has been going since then. One would have thought that the details of such a research program would have been kept in a eost centre so that the overall cost of the program would be known and so that such information would be available to the minister if he was considering the termination of such a project. If the minister cannot give details as far back as 1980-81, I would be quite happy at this stage to accept information as far back as he can go.

7664


Obviously, kenaf and cashews have not been involved for that period. I cannot see why it is impossible to provide the details.

In relation to erratic expenditure patterns, all the minister did was give a few examples and a couple of areas in which there have been some changes. He did not attempt to track through those changes. He simply said that they were all there. They are not all there as far as I am concerned, Mr Chairman, because I have not seen them.

The minister has not provided me with the staff turnover rates. I have asked him about them before and he refuses to provide them to me.

~lr Reed: What would you do with them if you got them?

Mr EDE: I also believe that it is quite natural that I should be asking about the cost of helicopter charters and ammunition used in BTFC shoot-outs. As he would know, that question is asked constantly out bush.

I also ask the minister - as I asked him the other day - to advi5e where the cattle that were de-stocked from Balbirini Station came from. Did they come from dirty herds? Has he conducted an investigation to determine whether they came from dirty herds? We have been paying money for those herds in the last year and we will presumably do so again this year.

Mr REED: Mr Chairman, in relation to the matters raised in the fifth question, I am sure that we can obtain additional information. I will endeavour to provide the honourable member with some advice at a later date.

In relation to matters which date back as far as 1957, such as the rice program, I have indicated that I am not prepared to commit the resources of my department to do the member for Stuart's legwork. Much of the information that he seeks is i~ annual reports and other public documents. If he seeks information, he can find it in those reports.

I will not deal with the Balbirini Station question at this time because it has nothing to do with 1989-90 budget. In fact, I seem to recall that I have answered the question in the House previously.

Mr EDE: The honourable minister has made no attempt whatsoever to answer my questions about the Treasurer's Annual Financial Statements. He knew that I would ask them because he was in the House when the Minister for Industries and Development advised me that the questions would' be answered more appropriately by the Minister for Primary Industry and Fisheries, who would answer them in his turn. Now that his turn has come, he has failed to answer the questions. He stood up for about a minute and then sat down, having made no effort to get on top of his job and provide the information which we have a chance to obtain once a year. In respect of some ministers, obtaining that information is like drawing teeth. Unfortunately, this minister appears to be intent on joining their ranks. .

At times like this, some ministers demonstrate their competence and show that they are on top of their jobs and are familiar with the activities of their departments. You can tell the competent ministers, Mr Chairman, by the way they answer questions in the committee stage of the Appropriation Bill. They are the ones who give full answers and who· can deal with follow-up questions. They know the approximate figures and they know when they need to seek more exact information from their officers. Mr Chairman, you can also tell the dodos and incompetents, the ones who are not on top of their

7665


portfolios and are just swamped by their departments. They hide behind smart alec remarks, sneers and grins in an attempt to disguise the fact that they do not have a clue. They refuse even to attempt to answer questions. Unfortunately for every pastoralist and for every person involved in primary production around the Northern Territory, the minister now responsible for that portfolio is one of them.

I will ask the honourable minister once again about a couple of matters. I will ask him to provide figures for just the last few years of expenditure on fertiliser, crops, freight subsidies etc. For what years can he provide figures? That might be the question to ask him now. What answers is he prepared to provide? Will he also provide me with the information in relation to kenaf, cashews and rice? The minister said that he would provide the details of the expenditure patterns culminating in the apparent declines in 1989-90 in those areas. I thank him greatly for that.

The minister said that he would not commit resources to obtaining the information requested on staff turnover rates. One of the most painful expenditures must have to be that which occurs every time an officer resigns and the position has to be filled. In really bugs me to see money being spent on that and I am sure that other honourable members feel the same. I have been told that the turnover rates of veterinary officers and stock inspectors are very high and I would not have thought that the minister would find it difficult to obtain the figures. If he is not prepared to go back to 1982-83, I will ask him how far back he is prepared to go in terms of providing me with those figures. Similarly, how far back will he go in terms of providing information on the number of cattle and buffalo shot out in 1982-83? How far back is he prepared to go in providing me with information as regards the amounts paid for helicopter charges and ammunition used in surveys? Given that he seems now to understand what I am talking about, will he give ballpark figures in terms of actual and potential costs in terms of projections for types A, B, C, D, E and F, and in relation to de-stocking?

Mr REED: I cannot give you those figures. already that they are being prepared at the moment. the position.

I have indicated to you am sorry, but that is

Mr EDE: I really find that amazing. Within 2 years of the end of this program, you cannot give any indication of the peaks and troughs. Remember that we are talking about a fixed budget. There is a total of $28m and we have spent $18m, $16m or whatever. We have this figure of $13.7m. I believe that the department must have some information about expected levels of expenditure in this financial year, next financial year and the year after. Does it expect a large de-stocking figure in the last financial year or will it be evenly spread over each year? Will there be a big de-stock in 1991 with a tailing off period in 1991-92?

I really think that the minister should have been able to give more information in relation to Tortilla Flats. He quoted a figure of about $O.5m for sale of assets. Surely there is an asset register or some sort of record which contains details of the accumulated costs of capital infrastructure at Tortilla Flats. If there is not, I would have thought that the Auditor-General might have had something to say over the years. The annual report of the department does not give a breakdown of the value of assets at Tortilla Flats. When assets of this nature are sold off, it is not unreasonable to ask questions about their value as recorded in the books. That is entirely reasonable in the context of a budget.

7666


Mr REED: Mr Chairman. the figure for primary industry assistance funding appears on page 195. A total of $5.634m is to be spent during this financial year. It includes the operations of the section. which has 14 staff. For the benefit of the member for Stuart. I will give a breakdown of the industry assistance schemes under that category and the amounts involved. They are as follows: fertiliser freight subsidy - $400 000; rural adjustment scheme - $945 000; drought relief - $140 COO; grain industry support - $lm; weed control assistance - $475 000; drought relief subsidies - $lm •..

Mr Ede: That is the second figure for drought relief.

Mr REED: One is a subsidy and the other is a loan.

The last figure is debt servicing to ADMA $578 000. There is a bottom line figure of $4.638m for that.

The difference between the amount of BTEC funding Annual Financial Statements and Budget Paper apprOXimately $2m is held in the trust fund.

in the Treasurer's No 4 occurs because

Mr Ede: So you either fully expend the trust fund to produce an $18m expenditure or you spend $16m and end up with $2m in the trust fund.

Mr REED: That could be.

I have indicated that I cannot provide the information in relation to 1991-92 because it is currently being prepared. I would ask the member for Stuart to also bear in mind the fact that we are currently awaiting the report from the BTEC Management Review Committee hearings. which no doubt will have a significant bearing on the direction of the program for the next couple of years. certainly until the end of the program in 1992.

As far as the honourable member's questions in relation to Tortilla Flats and the funding of a couple of projects over the last few years are concerned. I will endeavour to obtain some information. I will not commit enormous amounts of departmental resources to seeking it but. if the information is easily accessible. I will certainly endeavour to obtain something for him. I will certainly not go back as far as 1957 or as far back as the honourable member has proposed in any of his preposterous suggestions.

Mr Ede: I never asked you to go back to 1957.

Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman. Senator Tambling might have something to teach the minister about ministerial responsibility. At a federal level. Senator Tambling has certainly demonstrated that ministers are responsible for their departments. no matter how far back that responsibility goes.

Mr Reed: You gave notice on Monday that you expect us to go back to 1957 in 3 or 4 days.

Mr SMITH: It is exceedingly irresponsible of the minister not to be prepared to account for the operations of his department.

Mr Chairman. I have a specific question to ask on behalf of my colleague. Statement 4 of the Treasurer's Annual Financial Statements refers to an ex gratia payment by the Department of Primary Industry and Fisheries. The sum of $14 675 was paid to a ~ompany for costs incurred as a consequence of a departmental error. Can the minister give the name of that company?

7667


have a couple of general questions that I would like to ask. It is quite clear that agriculture in the Northern Territory has had a chequered history, and I suppose the closing of Tortilla Flats is another chapter in that history. It appears to be another nail in the coffin of broadacre farming in the Northern Territory. It is quite clear that our experiments in broadacre farming have not been uniformly successful, and my understanding of what is happening at present is that the Douglas-Daly experiment is not going all that well either. However, I would like the minister to spend a couple of minutes informing us about what he sees as the department's priorities in terms of the development of the crops program. In other words, what ~re the crops that his department currently sees as having the greatest likelihood of success in the Northern Territory? Hhat research is 'being done into those particular crops and what assistance is being given to particular farmers who might want to get involved in raising those crops?

Secondly, I am not sure that I fully understand the minister's answer in respect of primary industry assistance. He seemed to indicate that a large sum was emergency money, such as that used in drought relief schemes. I believed that the primary industry assistance program had a more positive aspect. As I said, I may not have fully understood the minister's answer. I would be interested in some specific examples of how the department encourages and assists the development of various primary industries and their products in the Northern Territory, which is one of its specific objectives.

Thirdly, I think it is appropriate, following the recent news about the pearling industry, to ask the minister to provide us with a brief update of what is happening in the industry and where he expects the new licences to go in the next 12 months.

Mr PEED: Mr Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition asked about an ex-gratia payment of $14 000. The amount was paid to a company following a claim which was put to the department in relation to the movement of stock. I am not prepared to make it public, but I am quite happy to have a talk with the Leader of the Opposition on a more confidential basis if that will satisfy him.

Mr Smith: Considering the lateness of the hour, yes.

Mr REED: The Leader of the Opposition is quite correct in saying that the history of cropping in the Territory is rather chequered. Unfortunately for the industry, a number of years of very low rainfall have had a severe impact on its viability. As honourable members would be aware, a number of the Douglas-Daly project farms have changed hands during the last 12 months. It is pleasing to note that a number of the new owners intend to continue with cropping, albeit at reduced levels in comparison with those originally intended. I believe that the future of the cropping industry will be as a component of broad-based farming practice, and that is the direction in which many growers are heading.

Mr Smith: Sorry, what does broad-based farming practice mean?

Mr REED: It refers to a mixed farming situation involving cattle-raising, grain-growing and other pursuits which particular farmers might want to undertake.

On the broad cropping front, there is a strong and continuing demand in the Northern Territory for sorghum, principally as stockfeed and feed for laying and meat-producing fowls. Sesame is also showing some promise in terms

7668


of an emerging market. It is suited to growing conditions in the Top End and it is a high value crop. Last year, a number of growers planted relatively small areas with sesam~ and some intend to plant again this year. Kenaf, of course, has received considerable publicity and shows a fair bit of potential although we shall have to wait some time to see any results.

The crop assistance scheme this year included a component for assisting growers in relation to new technology and new crops. Loans are provided to encourage farmers to adopt new technology and to try new approaches to cultivation. The drought relief subsidies apply if there is a need to move stock from a property for agistment in another locality. Orought relief loans of up to $40 000 provide for relief at the closure of the drought period.

I think that just about covers the Leader of the Opposition's questions. Does it?

Mr Smith: No, there was a question about pearling.

Mr REED: My apologies. The Leader of the OpPosition referred to recent publicity concerning the intended transfer of a pearling licence. That transfer has to be approved by the joint authority, which consists of the federal minister and myself. An application has been made in that regard. J have expressed my disappointment in relation to what has occurred but, nonetheless, the transfer application has been made. I hope that the Tiwi people will retain their interest in the company but that is principally a business decision which they will have to make.

The pearling industry is a very high investment industry and, whilst it shows considerable potential and definitely has a future, the high level of initial investment in the development phase, prior to any possibility of receiving returns, will make things difficult for a number of licence holders. However, the developments undertaken by Paspaley Pearling over the years give an indication of the potential and, if other producers are able to get into similar positions, they will be able to take advantage of a market whi~h is fairly buoyant.

Appropriation for division I? agreed to.


Mr LANHUPUY: Mr Chai'rman, I would like to take the opportunity of putting these questions to the Minister for Correctional Services.

First, given the creation of a new Oepartment of Correctional Services, which will require appropriate corporate infrastructure, why has the minister reduced the overall real allocation to correctional services by $1.7m? Given the serious problems that have been experienced in the adult prison system, why has there been a cut in real terms of $1.4m in custodial services? Also, given that the government has to deal with juvenile justice problems, why has it reduced its allocation to the juvenile justice program in real terms by $336 DOD?

Mr Chairman, is the commitment to expanding the adult conditional liberty program a reflection of the government's inability to deal effectively with its institutional system? With the recent history of problems at Malak House, it was announced that a new facility, called the Don Dale Centre, would be established. Could the minister advise if work has commenced on it this year? How much has been allocated for this facility and how will it be staffed? For example, what will be the number of designated staff?

7669


Mr REED: Mr Chairman, in relation to the first question, the member for Arnhem would be aware that the Department of Correctional Services has only just been excised, as it were, from the Department of Health and Community Services. That is reflected in the funding position of the department.

I would make the comment that it is really a false assumption that appropriations should contain provision for inflationary costs. These are times of relatively high inflation, with a current inflation rate of about 8%. I would have thought that honourable members who are familiar with the budget estimate process and the Financial Administration and Audit Act would know that the estimates are based on prices current at the time of compilation and that full allowance may not be made for inflation.

I should add that, in g1vlng correctional services a separate identity, the government has acknowledged the difficult and complex nature of a service which deals on a daily basis with an intimate and sometimes sordid side of many people's lives. I know from recent visits to prisons that the change of administrative arrangements has been well accepted. I will cover a couple of those points later on.

The second question contained an assumption that the Territory has a serious escape problem, and I do not think that that is a fair assumption. The most important security device we have in our prisons is the vigilance of our officers. Is the honourable member suggesting that, if officers are paid more; they will be more vigilant? Alternatively, is the honourable minister suggesting that we should pay prisoners more money as an incentive to remain behind bars and not escape? In each instance of prison escape in the Territory, a rigorous internal investigation has been launched. Officers have been rightfully exonerated. The incidents were found to be spontaneous reactions to homesickness or fear of punishment by other prisoners for misdeeds committed by the escapees. In every case, the prisoners were quickly recaptured by police and given a hefty increase in their sentences by the court. At no time was there considered to be a serious risk to the community. Some improvement to security at Beatrice Hill is being undertaken with the construction of a lockable vehicle compound.

The member for Arnhem, in suggesting a massive hypothetical cut back in funding for custodial services this year, may not be aware that some significant costs are centralised under the corporate management program. These costs include the payroll tax bill for custodial services at $670 000, allocations for fringe benefits tax payments of around $400 000, and NCOM charges of approximately $63 000.

The third question related to juvenile justice problems. The government places a high priority on its juvenile justice programs which offer the greatest hope of diverting offenders from further involvement in the criminal justice system. I think that the member for Arnhem would agree with that principle. In pursuit of that ideal, the government has established such innovative projects as the Wildman River Wilderness Work Camp, which I had the pleasure of visiting recently. I appreciate the honourable member's question, because it has brought to light a dilemma the department faced in preparing completely separate budget estimates for the first time to reflect accurately the costs of running the juvenile justice program.

For practical purposes, not the least of which is the organisational structure of the department, with a single division covering the adult conditional liberty program and both conditional liberty and institutional programs for juveniles, this part of the budget was previously amalgamated

7670


into the program called Community-based Correctional Services. In order to separate the costs into distinct program streams, for the benefit of honourable members and the community, it was necessary to make some assessment of costs in previous years and, as a result of restructuring the department, to make some internal transfers of funds to create an additional program - which has been called Corporate Management. That task has been combined with some hasty calculations to rewrite Budget Paper No 4 in its present form, and the exactitude of that process is reflected in the budget paper.

apologise if that has led the member for Arnhem to the misconception that significant cuts are being imposed on juvenile justice services. That is not the case, although there will be a major reduction in outlays for capital equipment of around $90 000, and this is simply a response to a reduction in need. I can assure honourable members that the budget appropriation will be adequate to sustain the juvenile justice system.

The next question was in relation to the adult conditional 1 iberty program. While I appreciate the member for Arnhem's inquiry, it also behoves me to beg the question and suggest that, in fact, the government's commitment to the program precisely reflects the effective manner in which we are dealing with the problems of imprisonment. The initiatives cater particularly well for people imprisoned for drink-driving offences, who accounted for 22% of jail receptions last year. While the community will not tolerate this type of behaviour, it is a fact that the serious alcohol abuse problems of those offenders have can be treated more effectively in a community-based alternative to prison.

The other large group of people who are catered for by these programs are those who cannot afford to pay their court-imposed fines. The Northern Territory was the first jurisdiction in Austral ia t.o successfully introduce fine default and fine option legislation. One of t.he really attractive aspects of these programs is that they generally involve offenders in giving something back to the community by way of reparation through the performance of useful work. The Northern Territory government will continue to develop these strategies whose effectiveness is attested to by what I would venture to suggest would be a reduction in imprisonment of 25% since May 1987. Such a figure could well be the envy of the rest of Australia.

There have been recent problems at Malak House and, unfortunately, we had another incident there tdday. Two inmates escaped although, fortunately, they were promptly recaptured. I am happy to provide members with some further information on the Don Dale Centre, which will replace Malak House. It has been stated several times that the government has set aside $1.5m for the Don Dale Centre. It will ,be constructed near the Darwin Prison, and design work is currently under way. But, I would not expect that that facility will be available for use before the end of next year. The average number of juveniles held each day under the system is some 36, and these are spread fairly evenly between the 2 juvenile detention centres, with a daily average of 14 at Malak, 10 at Giles House and 11 at the Wildman River Wilderness Work Camp. Of course, the Don Dale Centre will become the principal detention centre for juveniles when it is completed.

Mr Lanhupuy: Where is it to be built?

Mr REED: It will be in the Darwin Prison precinct, but quite separate and distinct from the prison itself.

7671


Appropriation for division agreed to.


Mr SMITH: Mr Chairman, I have given a number of questions to the Minister for Tourism. In fact, it might save a little time if he could read the questions and then give the answers, rather than having me read the questions to him first.

Mr VALE: Mr Chairman, the first question was as follows. Are there recorded sets of objectives fOr programs. within the Tourist Commission? If so, what are they and how is achievement measured against them? The answer is the commission's objectives are to market the Northern Territory as an outstanding holiday destination both nationally and internationally. It is an easy answer

Mr Smith: It is not a very good objective though.

Mr VALE: ... but a much more difficult task. The monitoring of these objectives is measured through the Northern Territory Travel Monitor, which was established by the Northern Territory Tourist Commission in 1981 for this purpose. It is, in fact, a statistical summary produced by the Northern Territory Tourist Commission.

The next question is: what additional assistance is being planned for the local tourism industry for the duration of the pilots' dispute? Major additional assistance by the Tourist Commission will be provided through funding of a $lm national television and press campaign aimed to increase consumer interest in the Northern Territory. This campaign will specifically target the South Australian market to support the government-subsidised discount scheme which will come into effect on 16 October 1989 and continue until January 1990. Additionally, an allocation from current funds has been made to print a supplement to the 1989-90 Holiday Planner detailing discounted product by the industry. Of further assistance to the local tourism industry has bep.n the withdrawal of fees imposed on operators for the inclusion of their products in the 1990-91 Holiday Planner. This represents an across-the-board savings to operators of approximately $120 000, which is now being funded by government moneys. It should be noted that the Northern Territory government has set a precedent by its initiatives designed to minimise the effects of the pilots' dispute on the Territory tourism industry.

The third question was: what changes have been forced on the Northern Territory Tourism Commission budget as a result of the pilots' dispute? My answer is that, by necessity, the main media advertising campaign originally planned for 1989-90 will need to be modified by the funding amounts now being utilised to support projects currently being undertaken to counteract the disastrous effects of the pilots' dispute on the local tourism industr,V.

The fourth question was: was the NT Tourist Commission responsible for the funding of the voucher program or was a separate allocation made to the program? The answer is that the Northern Territory Tourist Commission did not fund the voucher program. The commission's involvement was to provide outlets for the distribution of vouchers through Northern Territory Government Tourist Bureaus. Funding of the project was through the Department of Industries and Development.

The fifth question was: has the Northern Territory Tourist Commission received an extra allocation to make up for the budgetary strain resulting

7672


from the pilots' dispute? The Northern Territory Tourist Commission has not received extra funding at this stage. However, it is anticipated that discussions will be held with the Department of Treasury on the ramifications on the budget, immediately upon resolution of the pilots' dispute.

The next questions are as follows. How has the first voucher program been monitored? What was the cost to the government of the first voucher program? Will the minister provide details of the number of vouchers used and the cost to government by type of tourist operation - for example, numbers used and cost for accommodation purposes and numbers used and cost for tours? The answer is as previously stated. The voucher program was not a Tourist Commission initiative. I have therefore passed the question to my colleague, the Minister for Industries and Development, for reply.



Mr VALE: Mr Chairman, I had some written questions from the member for Koolpinyah and I shall pass the information on to her when she returns.


Amendment agreed to.

Remainder of the bill taken as a whole and agreed to.

Bill reported; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

ADJOURNMENT

Mr COULTER (Leader of Government Business): Mr Speaker, I move that the Assembly do now adjourn.

Mr EDE (Stuart): Mr Speaker, I will be brief. I would like to especially thank the Leader of Government Business for the work he has done during the last few days in answering some very difficult questions which I asked him in relation to the budget. I would like to extend the same thanks to the Minister for Education who was very fulsome and thorough in answering my questions and supplementary questions. Their efforts were a credit to them and they should be very proud of their staff, who must have gone to a great deal of effort to put together those answers during the week.

I would also like to compliment the Minister for Health and Community Services who, despite being new to the portfolio, has obviously attacked it with great gusto and got on top of it in a very short time. He was able to answer the questions I asked with all the acumen of somebody who had been in the portfolio for many years. I will not pass judgments on the Minister for Lands and Housing or the Minister for Primary Industry and Fisheries. I think that all honourable members know my feelings in that regard and I hope that we can look forward to a better effort from them next year if they remain in those portfolios - which, of course, is doubtful.

Motion agreed to; the Assembly adjourned.

7673

INDEX TO DEBATES - 10 - 12 October 1989

ADJOURNMENT Aboriginal communities, housing 7494 Budget information, thanks to ministers and staff 7673 Conservation Council of Central Australia, tourism strategy 7489 Lajamanu -

housing 7493 lack of telephone service 7492 roads 7493 water supply 7493

Member for Sadadeen, threats by opposition members 7489 'Tourism Strategy for Central Australia' 7489

ADMINISTRATIVE ARRANGEMENTS 7233

BILL Appropriation 1989-90 (Serial 215) 7283, 7396, 7570

DEPUTY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES 7355

ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES 7232

ELECTION OF SPEAKER 7225

MATTER OF PRIVILEGE 7378, 7395

MOTIONS Censure of Attorney-General 7233, 7358 Chamberlain correspondence tabled by Attorney-General 7275 Coronation Hill 7503 Dissent from Speaker's ~._ Z40 Membership of committee 7258 Noting statements -

Chamberlain compensation claim 7263 ,tourism industry, effect of pilots' dispute 7565

PETITION Strip shows on licensed premises 7357

RESIGNATION OF SPEAKER 7225

STATEMENTS Chamberlain compensation claim 7259 Coronation Hill 7497 Tourism industry, effect of pilots' dispute 7561

TABLED PAPERS Auditor-General's Annual Report 1988-89 7258 Ombudsman - Eleventh Annual Report 7259 Publications Committee - Eleventh Report 7497

INDEX TO MEMBERS' SPEECHES - 10 - 12 October 1989

BAILEY J.D.

ADJOURNMENT 'Tourism Strategy for Central Australia' 7489

BILL Appropriation 1989-90 (Serial 215) 7413, 7572

MOTION Censure of Attorney-General 7379

BELL N.R.


ELECTION OF SPEAKER 7227, 7230

MOTIONS Censure of Attorney-General 7246, 7358, 7391 Chamberlain correspondence tabled by Attorney-General 7275, 7281 Coronation Hill 7503 Dissent from Speaker's ruling 7240, 7241 Noting statement, Chamberlain compensation claim 7263

COLLINS D.W.

ADJOURNMENT Member for Sadadeen, threats by opposition members 7489


MOTIONS Censure of Attorney-General 7388 Coronation Hill 7552

COULTER B.F.

BILL Appropriation 1989-90 (Serial 215) 7425

MOTIONS Coronation Hill 7503 Membership of committees 7258

PETITION Strip shows on licensed premises 7357

STATEMENT Coronation Hill 7497, 7556

DONDAS N.M. , ELECTION OF SPEAKER 7229

MATTER OF PRIVILEGE 7395


EDE B.R.

ADJOURNMENT Aboriginal communities, housing 7494 Budget information, thanks to ministers and staff 7673 Lajamanu -

BILL

housing 7493 lack of telephone service 7492 roads 7493 water supply 7493

Appropriation 1989-90 (Serial 215) 7283, 7407, 7570


MOTIONS Censure of Attorney-General 7372 Chamberlain correspondence tabled by Attorney-General 7279 Coronation Hill 7530

FINCH F.A.


FIRMIN C.C.


FLOREANI LA.


MOTIONS Censure of Attorney-General 7252 Coronati on Hi 11 7545

HARRIS T.


HATTON S.P.




LANHUPUY W.W.


MOTION Coronation Hill 7537

LEO D.M.



MOTIONS Chamberlain correspondence tabled by Attorney-General 7280 Coronation Hill 7555

McCARTHY T.R.



MANZIE D.W.



MATTER OF PRIVILEGE 7378

MOTIONS Censure of Attorney-General 7240, 7362 Chamberlain correspondence tabled by Attorney-General 7277 Coronation Hill 7510 Noting statement, Chamberlain compensation claim 7263

STATEMENT Chamberlain compensation clai~ 7259, 7275

PADGHAM-PURICH C.N.

BILL· Appropriation 1989-90 (Serial 215) 7298, 7410, 7582




PALMER M.J.

BILL Appropriation 1989-90 (Serial 215) 7322~ 7428

PERRON M.B.

ADMINISTRATIVE ARRANGEMENTS 7233



MOTIONS Censure of Attorney-General. 7249, 7370 Dissent from Speaker's ruling 7241 Noting statement, Chamberlain compensation claim 7272

POOLE E.H.

MOTION Coronation Hill 7508, 7526

REED M.A.



SETTER R.A.



MOTION Coronation Hi 11 7546

SMITH T.E.



MOTIONS Censure of Attorney-General 7366 Coronation Hill 7514 Dissent from Speaker's ruling 7241 Noting statements -

Chamberlain compensation claim 7268 tourism industry, effect of pilots' dispute 7565


TIPILOURA S.G.


TUXWORTH I. L.



MOTIONS Censure of Attorney-General 7233, 7253, 7384 Coronation Hill 7523 Noting statement, Chamberlain compensation claim 7270

VALE R.W.S.



MOTION Noting statement, tourism industry, effect of pilots' dispute 7565

STATEMENT Tourism industry, effect of pilots' dispute 7561

debates - thursday 12 october 1989 mr speaker dondas took ... · fact that the legitimate rights...

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