downes wiley
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These sobre o uso de midias sociais em sala de aulaTRANSCRIPT
Downes‐Wiley
AConversationonOpenEducationalResources
DavidWiley
BrighamYoungUniversity
StephenDownes
NationalResearchCouncilCanada
Introduction
CoverphotobyD’ArcyNorman.http://www.flickr.com/photos/dnorman/3812258149/
PartOne‐Providing,SupportingandProducingOERs
Segment1(9:00‐10:30)
Recordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley1.mp3
• WhatareOERsandWhydowewantThem?What'sOurObjectiveHere?• ProvidingLearningvsSupportingLearning• PerspectivesonOERs:UsersandProducers• OERsCreatedbyProvidersvs.CreatedbyCommunity
Moderator:ChrisLott
Chris:Wehavefoursessionsplannedtoday,sotheroadmapisthatwe'llstartwithproducing,supporting,creatingOERmaterials.Whatdoesthatmean?Whatisit?Talkingabout,thesecondsession,
educationlicensing.We'llthenmoveontoinstitutions,accreditationandcommercialism,andwhatdoesthatwholeproblematicentail?Eachofthesecouldbeafulldaylongeasilyandfinally...
Stephen:Asemesterlong.
Chris:youknow,what'snext‐yeah,awholesemester,awholeclass‐what'snextandwhydowebotherwiththisandwherearewehappy?WhichIthinkthisconversationisuniquelypoisedatthe
beginningofthisimportantconferencefollowingthisconversation,soitwillbeinterestingtoseehowitplaysout.DavidandStephenreallydon'tneedmuchintroductionfromme,butjusttoquicklynote:
StephenDownesisSeniorResearcherfortheNationalResearchCouncilofCanada'sInstituteforInformationTechnology,whichispartoftheLearningandCollaborativeTechnologiesgroup.Ihadto
writethatdown,Icouldn'trememberit.Youprobablyknowhimfromextensivekeynotes,presentations,OLDailyofcourse,whichyoushouldbesubscribedtoorreadingifyou'renotalready,hardtobelieveanyofyouwouldn'tbe.
AndthenwehaveDavidWiley,who'stheAssociateProfessorofInstructionalPsychologyand
TechnologyatBrighamYoungUniversity,ChiefOpennessOfficerofFlatWorldKnowledge,andfounder
oftheOpenHighSchoolofUtah.SoyoucanfindDavidatopencontentdotorg,andyoucanfindStephenDownes,ofcourse,atDownesdotCA.Soifyou'renotreadingthemalreadyyoushouldbe.And
withthatIwillkickitoff,handitovertoStephenandDavidtogetstarted.Again,usethehashtagandTwitterifyouhaveanycommentsorquestionsandwe'llworkthemintotheconversation.That'sit,it'sallyou.
David:Whoismoderatingthisfirstblock?
Chris:Iam.ChrisLott.
David:Verygood.
Chris:Yes.We'llhavedifferentmoderatorssittinginthehotchairoverthere,tryingtoworkinthe
conversation,butyoucanalwayscometomeifyouhavequestionsoranythingonthelogisticsofwhat'shappeningheretoday.
David:Nowwe'resupposedtotalktoeachother..
Stephen:Forhowmanyhours?
Chris:Ninetyminutestostart.
Stephen:Okay,I'llgetstartedhere.Those,thoseofyouwhoknowDavidormyselfknowthatweshareagreatdealincommon,andinparticularadedicationtowardopeneducationalresourcesandopen
educationgenerally,alongwithahostofotherthings.Thoseofyouwhoknowusalsoknowthatforwhoknowshowmanyyearsnowwe'vehadaninterminableseriesofargumentsaboutsomebasicconceptsrelatedtoopenness,opennessineducationandalloftherestofit.
LastMay,duringoneofthose...
David:Youfoundthedate.
Stephen:Ifoundthedate,Iactuallyfoundthepost..andnowI'velostit.Ohwait,hangon.Last,last
May,Mayseventhtobeprecise,Iposted,andIquote:“DavidWileyrespondstocommentsincludingoneofmineandinthecommentsIstrivetofindthefundamentaldisconnectbetweenWiley'sviewand
myown.Hereplieshere,there'salinkthereinmypost,leavingmewithanumberofpointstoanswer.Whatthetwoofusreallyneedtodoofcourseistositdownforadayorthreeandhaveaconversationabouttheseissuesandthenhaveittranscribedandpostitasanopenbook.I'dmakethetime.”
Nowit'sreallyeasytothrowsomethinglikethatoutwhenit'slateandyou'retryingtogetanewsletter
outfortheday.SurprisinglyDavidwritesbackandsays'I'lldoit.'
David:I'mcomingtoCanada,Vancouver'sclosebecausethat'sinCanada,let'sgettogether.
Stephen:TheothersideofCanada.Anyhow.Sothat'sthegenesisofthis,isoneofourinterminabledisputes.We'vesetupthescheduleandthe,thescheduleisavailableonline,ontheopeneducationconferencepages,thewebsite.
Androughlywe'vebrokenthediscussionintofourmajorsegments:thefirstsegmentonproviding,supporting,producingopeneducationalresources;thesecondoneducation,learningandlicensing;the
thirdoninstitutions,accreditationandcommercialism;andthenfourthonwhat'snext,whybother?
Ineedtosetthisupalittlebittoobecause,nottodiscountthepeopleintheaudience,butthisisintendedasaconversationbetweenDavidandmyself.Andwe'vedeliberatelynotpromoteditallovertheplacebecausewedidn'twanttocreatesomesortofspectacle.Andsohereweareinthisbeautiful
courtroom(laughter)withanaudienceandlivestreaming.
Butthatbasicallyisgoingtobetheformatandsowereallydowanttoreiterate,feelfreetoleaveatanypointifyoufindmoreurgentbusinesslikewatchinggrassgroworwhateveroutside,wewon'tfeelatallinsulted.WearegoingtobemonitoringtheTwitterbecauseifyou'resittingthereandhavetogeta
commentoutanddon'twanttobelikecompletelyfedup,wewillbemonitoringitsoyourcomments,oratleastahundredandfortycharactersofit,willbeseenandheard.Thesameforpeoplewhoarewatchingthelivestreaming,bothofyou.
WewillbewatchingtheTwittersoyoucangetcommentsintous.Theremaybetime,shouldthe
conversationlagatanygivenpoint,forthe,forsortofdiscussion.Youknow,wemayatthatpointentertaincommentsandsuggestions,etcetera,fromtheaudience.ButreallythepointhereisforDavidandmyselftoengageina,inasustainedexaminationoftheseissues,togetasdeeplyintothemas
possiblethroughdialogue,andperhapseventoresolvethedifferencesthatwehavebetweeneachother.ThatwouldbeprettycoolandIholdouthopethatthatispossible.
Youknow,despitethefactthatwecomefromverydifferentstartingpointsIthink,andIreallydothinkwecomefromlikecompletelyoppositeendsofthespectrumasastartingpoint,despitethatIdothink
thatthereiscommonground,andindefiningthatcommongroundwecancomeupwithsomesortofideaofwhatthewholeconceptofopeneducationalresourceslookslike.
Thefirstitemontheagendathereforeis:whatareopeneducationalresourcesandwhydowewant
them?What'sourobjectivehere?Ithinkthat'sprobablyagoodplacetostartbecauseeventhereIthinkwemaybecomingfromadifferentplace,andmypresumptionrightoffthebat,you'recomingfromauniversitybackground,you'reaworkingacademic,aprofessor;me,althoughIhaveanacademic
background,I'mnotinauniversitynow,I'mthinkingoutsidetheuniversitycontext,andindeedwhathappensoutsidetheuniversitycontextisveryimportanttome.ButI'llturnitovertoyounowbecauseI'vetalkedmytwominutes.Andwhatdoyouthink?Whatis,whatareweupto?
David:LetmestartbysayingthatIdothinkthatwehaveexactlythesamegoal,whichIthinkiswhat
producesthecommonrespectthatwehaveandourwillingnesstositdown,eventhoughwearguedforyearsandyears,becausewearetryingtogetatthesamething,Ithink,whichiseitherincreasedoruniversalaccesstoeducationalopportunityforpeople.Andeventhoughwecomefromdifferent
trajectoriestowardit,that'ssomethingwebothcarereallypassionatelyabout.Sothat'swhatmakesitinterestingtome,becausehowmanydifferenttotallycontradictorysetsof,youknow,tacticscanyouuseandstillarriveatthesamegoal?
Sowhatisitwe'reupto?Thereisadebateaboutwhetheraccesstoeducationalopportunityisreallysufficientornot,peoplelikeKatarinaTomasevski,whopassedawaylastyearortheyearbefore
(October4,2006–ed1),whodidrighttoeducation.org,reallyarguedagainstaccessasaconstruct,andreallywantedtoseemandates.Accesstoprimaryeducation,forexample,isn'tgoodenough,wehavetomandateitandwehavetorequireit.
AndinmybrainI'veneverbeenabletogetallthewaytothemandate,maybeIwilleventually.Ijust
thought“weneedtoprovideaccess,provideoptions,provideopportunitiesforpeople,andthenastheychoosetotakeadvantageofittheywill,andiftheydon't,theywon't,andI'mnotgoingtomeddleinwhethertheyshouldhavetoornot.”ButIthink,likeyousay,IthinkIthinkmoreabouthigher
educationandKatarinawastalkingmoreaboutprimaryschoolone,andsecondaryschoolandthingslikethat.
Tomewhatitiswe'reaboutiswe'retryingtogeteducationalopportunityinfrontofpeoplethat,forwhateverreason,didn'thaveitbefore.AndIthinkthedistanceeducationtraditionispeoplewhoare
time‐boundorplace‐bound.Ithink,andIguesswhatyou'dcallanopenuniversitytraditionhastodowithtime‐boundandplace‐boundandmaybeevenqualification‐bound,ifwecancallitthat,right?AndIknowyouhavethisherefromtheOpenUniversitySummer,youknow,theonlyrequirement'syou
havetobeoveracertainageandifyou,youknow,youmeetthatcriteriathenyougetin.Sothere'splace‐bound,there'stime‐bound,there'sprerequisite‐bound,andIthinkwhatwe'retryingtoaddontopofthatwithopeneducationismaybeanideaofbeingfinancially‐boundsomehow.
Youknow,therearepeoplethatdohavethetimeandpeoplethatreallywouldliketoincreasetheir
education,whetherit'sformallyintermsofcredentialsortheyjustwanttopickupadditionalskills,buttheycan'tafforditorit'snotavailabletotheminawaythattheycanunderstand,becausemaybeit's
onlyavailableinEnglishorit'sonlyavailableinMandarinorsomething,theyreallyneedsomebodytogoandlocaliseitforthemtobeabletouseit.But,butIthinkwhatwe'reaboutistryingtoincreaseopportunity.
Stephen:Okay.Ithink,okay,toacertaindegreeI'mgoingtoagreewiththat,andsoawaywego.
First,let's,let'sremoveoneissueoffthetable,Ithinkwherewewillfindsomeagreement,andthisis
theideaofmandate.Assoonaswegetintothetopicofmandates‐mandatedthis,mandatedthat‐wemoveintoanareathatI'mnotcomfortablewith.And,andIwillincludeinthatprimaryeducation,secondaryeducation,aswellaspostsecondaryeducation.
Itmayseemirrationaltosay“well,howcanyounothaveamandateforprimaryeducation?”Idon't
believeit'sirrational.Ithinkifweanalysewhatismeantbyamandateforprimaryeducation,whatisreallymeantisnotthatchildrenofprimaryschoolagebecomeeducated,becauseit'simpossiblenottodothat.Theywillbecomeeducated,that'sbecausetheyareliving,breathing,learningmachines,thisis
whatchildrendo,probablybetterthananythingelseintheuniverse.
1‐http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/216723/116055195197.htm
Themandatefocusesonwhatsortofthingstheyoughttolearn,somesortofcommoncoreorcommoncurriculum.It'sthis,inacertainsense,anattempttocreateconformitywithacertainperspectiveon
what,quote,tobeeducated,unquote,means.AndI'mnotcomfortablewiththat.Ithinkitistrueprobablythattherewerethingsthatmostifnoteverychildrenshouldlearn,but,youknow,IoftenechotheremarksofSeymourPapertwhenquestionedonthesubjectoffoundations:“ifsomethingisindeed
foundationalthentheneedforitwillcomeupintheprocessofwhateverlearning...'Or,sorry,'intheprocessofwhateverdoingthechildmayhaveinmind.”2
David:Sowecanputmandate...
Stephen:Wecanputmandatetotheside.
David:Weagree.
Stephen:Weagreeonthefirstpoint.
David:See,thatonlytooktenminutes.
Stephen:Yeah.Well,yeah,butIthinkwe'vejusthitapointwherelikeninetypercentofthepeoplelisteningtousmaydisagree,so...Butnonetheless,butIthinkthere'sacrucialpointthatneedstobe
underscoredasaconsequenceofthisfirstpoint,andthatisopeneducationentailschoice;it'snotsimplycreatingopportunities,it'salsocreatingcapacities,creatingempowerment.Tohaveopeneducationmeansthatapersonisabletochoosethecourseoftheirownlearning.
And,andIthinkthatisgoingtobecertainlyoneofthemajorthemesI'llreturntooverandoverand
overaswegothroughtheday.Whatisanaccess,whatisaccesstoaneducationopportunity?Whatisaccesstoaneducation?Youknow,becausewhenyoutalkaboutit,youtalkaboutcredentials,youtalkaboutskills,youknow,again,IkindofwanttobracketthecredentialingalthoughIknowhowimportant
thecredentialingis.
David:Forthetimebeing.
Stephen:Forthetimebeing.
David:Itmaynotbeimportantinthelongterm,butIexpectwe'llgettothat.
Stephen:Andsimilarly,youknow,skills,youknow,the,theideathatapersonseeksaneducationinordertoobtainacredentialorinordertoobtainaskillisarepresentationthatwehaveofitbecausewe
haveasystemthatisbasedaroundcredentialsandskills,moreandmoresoaswemoveintotheeraofcompetenceframeworksandthingslikethat.But,again,Idon'tthinkthatpeopleenterintoeducationinordertogetthosethings,thosethingsaresteppingstonestothethingsthattheyreallywant.Andwhat
theyreallywantofcoursevariesfrompersontopersontoperson,butitissomethinglike,ifyouwill,thegoodlife,whateverthatis.Anddifferentpeoplehavedifferent,differentdefinitionsofwhatthe
2http://www.downes.ca/post/41
goodlifeis.Butthey'retryingtoleadtheirlives,they'retryingtomaketheirwayintheworldto,todothethingsthattheywanttodothrough,asMillsays,pursuetheirowngoodintheirownway.
AndIthinkthat,certainlythatunderliesmyownphilosophyofeducation:educationisn'tabout
acquiringskillstome,educationisn'taboutobtainingcredentials,itisn'tevenaboutthecontentofthateducation,educationisaboutpursuingone'sowngoodinone'sownway.It'saboutempowerment,aboutbeingabletosetthedirectionofone'sownlife.Andhere,asyouknow,I'mechoing,well,people
likeFreireand,Illichandtherest.That'snotanewperspectivebyanymeans.So...
David:Sowhileyoucatchyourbreath,Iwouldn'tdisagreewithanyofwhatyou'vejustsaid.IguessIwouldsaythatmypersonalemphasis,withformaleducationbeingsuchabigsystem,withittouchingandimpactingsomanypeople,andbeingsointegralandtosomany,youknow,everythingfrom
employmenttowhatever,whileIagreewithwhatyousaidmypersonalfocusisonmoreformal,youknow,kindsofeducation.Becauseitseemstobeindesperateneedofsomekindofhelporreformorsupportorsomething.
Andso,andI'msureithelps,likeyousaid,thatI'mafacultymemberworkinginsideofinstitutions,so
that'swheremybrainspendsmostofitstime.But,butIwouldn'tdisagreewithyouthatthe,theendofeducationis,ispursuingthegoodlife,whateverthatmeanstoyou.Foralotofpeoplethatmeanstheywanttobeemployedatsomepart,somepoint,sotheycanfeedtheirfamilyanddocertainthings.And
ifemploymentrequiresacredential,thenyoustartbackchainingfromthegoodlifeand,foralotofpeopleatsomepoint,theytouchformaleducationthatway.
Stephen:Ateachstepinthebackchainthough,youneedtobeclear,thesearen'tinherentconstraintsthatareafactofnature,thesearethingsthatwecreate.
David:Ohabsolutely.
Stephen:Youknow,thefactthatyouneedtoobtainemploymentinordertosustainyourselfisanartificeofsociety;it'sthewaywe'vebuiltsocietyandnotafactofnature.Andsowecouldconceiveatleast‐IsawatleastonepersonwithaMaoT‐shirtintheaudience‐conceiveofaworldinwhichthatis
notnecessarilythecase.Buttore‐frameaweebit,doyouthinkthatprovidingpeopleaccesstotheuniversityisthesameasprovidingaccesstoopeneducation?
David:Wellifyou'redrawingaVenndiagramobviouslythere's,openeducationisthebigbubbleandthekindsofopeneducationmaterialsyouproduceinsidetheuniversityareasmallerbubbleinsidethe,
thebigbubble.Thereareallkindsof,takeWikipediaforexample,allkindsoflarge,veryvaluableresourcesthatyoucanuseeducationally,andherewegetbacktothedefinitionofwhat,whataneducationalresourceis,allkindsofthingswouldbeusefulinthiswaythatdon'tcomeoutofthe
university.Butjustbecauseit'struedoesn'tmeanthattheuniversityhasnothingtoaddofvaluetothebodyofthingsthatareoutthere.
Stephen:WellI'mnotgoingtocharacterisemypositionassayingthatuniversitieshavenothingtoadd,thatwouldbekindofamisrepresentation,but,butlet'sbeclearaboutwhatuniversitiesareaddingand
whatthey'renotadding.
AndGeorgeSiemens,lastyearwhenwedidourConnectivismcourse3,Ithoughtdrewitoutreallynicelybyidentifyingthreemajoraspectsofopenness,right?There'stheopencontentisthefirstthing,whateverthatmaybe,andwe'llcomebacktothat.Thenthere'stheopendelivery.And,again,thatmay
beanynumberofthings,but,butit's,youknow,soI'lljustusetheworddeliveryfornowandleavethedefinitiontilllaterifitcomesup.Andthenthethirdthingisopenaccreditationorevaluationorassessment,etcetera.
Now,whichofthosedoestheuniversityprovide,whichofthosethree?Andwhichofthosethreeisit
necessaryfortheuniversitytoprovide,andwhichifanyofthosethreecouldwedowithout?Youknow,thecontent,andweliveintheworldoftheInternetnowandwecanseethatcontentcanbeproducedinsidetheuniversity,contentcanbeproducedoutsidetheuniversity.Soclearlywecanenvisionaworld
withouttheuniversityandstillhavethecontent.Similarly,Iwouldsaywithdeliveryit'slessobvious,but,youknow,especiallyonceourconceptofdelivery...JustwaitforDavetoremountthemicrophone.
David:Lookslikeasmallfirtreehere.
Stephen:Notthatsmallafirtree.Youknow,youknow,asweexpandourconceptofwhatdeliveryis,youknow,Imeanitusedtobedeliveryofaneducationwassomeguystandinginfrontoftheroom
lecturing,that'sdelivery.
David:Nowit'stwoguys.
Stephen:Nowit'stwoguys.Sowe'retwiceasgoodnow.
David:Exactly.
Stephen:Butweexpectthere'sstillmore.Butofcourse,youknow,Imeanlearningisbecomingmoreofacommunity.Whenwestartedthatcourse,GeorgeandI,theConnectivismcourse,wewerethinkingof
modelsforlearning,thefirstmodelthatsprungtomymindinterestingly,welltomeanyways,wastheoldCambridgemodel,theoldOxfordmodel,whereinfactthestudentsmanagedtheirownlearning,theywouldformlearningclubsorlearningsocieties.4Andprofessorswouldinteractwiththembut
typicallyonapersonalbasis.Andacourse,quoteunquote,was,wasacourseoflectures.Ifaprofessorthoughthe,anditwasalwayshealmost,hadsomethingtosayhewouldgiveacourseoflecturesor,ifchallengedbyoneofthesestudentclubs,wouldgiveacourseoflectures.
Butitwasn'tallstructuredandflakedandformed.Andtheideawasthatthestudents,toalargedegree,
wouldorganisethemselvesintoalearningcommunity.Andwe'reseeingmoreandmoreofthatonlinenow,wherepeopleorganisethemselvesintoalearningcommunity.
3http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/connectivism/4http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/connectivism/?p=49
Youmayrememberthe,theOpenEdconferencethatIattendedin,inUtahanumberofyearsago.ErinBrewer'stalk,talkingabouttheYahoo,groupsandbeekeepers5andpeopleorganisingtheirown
learningintheseYahoogroups,wastheonethatstuckinmymind.Idon'tknowwhybutitdid.Sowecanconceiveofawayforlearningtohappenwithoutithappeningintheuniversity.
David:Absolutely.
Stephen:Sothatleavesuswiththeonlyessentialfunctionofuniversitiesasbeingthemarking,thecredentials.Andthat's,anditseemstomeandI'veoftenmadethepoint,ifyouremovethemonopoly
thatuniversitieshaveoncredentials,theuniversitysystemwouldbasicallycrashandburn,becausepeoplewouldn'tseethevalueinpayingtensofthousands,hundredsofthousandsofdollarsforacredentialwhentheycouldgetonefromMcCredentials.
David:Right.Andsoifyoulookinthetechnicalareas‐MicrosoftCertification,CiscoCertification,Red
HatCertification,whateveritis‐youknow,ifyou're,ifyou'rehiringapersontorunandsecureyournetworkandyou'vegotsomebodywithaBSincomputerscienceandsomebodywithacertificationintheplatformthatyou'rerunningyournetworkon,that'snotevenachoice,you'regoingtotakethe
credentialpersontentimesoutoftenoverthepersonwiththeBSincomputerscience,whatever.
SoIagreewithyourpointbutIthinkit'sactuallyfurtheralongthanyoujuststated.Ithinktheuniversities'monopolyonthecredentialisalreadywellunderattackandthatfront'sbeencompletelybreachedincertainareas,liketechnicalones.IdothinkthingslikeWesternGovernorsUniversityarea
reallyinterestingexampleof,here'sacompletelyaccreditedonlineuniversitythatoffersnocourseswhatsoever,allthattheyofferareassessments.
Isthatastatementontheirpartthatthey'vefiguredoutthatthat'swheretherealvalue,youknow,intheuniversityis?Youknow,Idon'tknow,wouldbe,maybewegetBobonthephoneorsomethingand,
andaskhimbut...
Stephen:IsBobonlinehere?
David:Theydon'tcarewhereyoulearnedit,theydon'tcarehowyoulearnedit,theydon'tcareifyouwerebornknowingitsomehowortookitatMITopencoursewareorlearneditfromWikipediaor
whatever.Whenyoushowup,ifyoucandemonstratethatyouknowitthenthey'llcredentialyou.
Stephen:You’vegottopaythem.
David:Youpaythemforthecredentialingservice,yes.But,butthey'reanaccrediteduniversitythatoffersnocourses,theyonlyofferassessments.Andsothatseemstome,youknow,thatphenomenaplusthephenomenaofthetechnicalcertificationsseemstometosaythatthere'salotalready
happeningthere.AndI,Iagreewithwhatyou're,whatyou'resayingtheretoo.
5http://www.downes.ca/post/25
Stephen:Okay,wellgiventhatWesternGovernorsUniversityexists,whyisanyonepayingwhoknowshowmuchforuniversity?
David:Socomingbacktoyourcommentabouttheselforganisinggroupsversusthefacultymember
whoimposesthestructureanddoestheseotherthings.Charlie(Raguwith?),who'saneducationaltheoristinmyworld,becausewe'rebotheducatorsbutwelivein(talkingtogether)fairlydifferentworlds,Charlie'soneoftheoutsidereadersonmydissertationandhemadeaninterestingcomment
that'sstuckwithme,sayingthat:“youknow,youcancutthegrassinyourfrontyardwithapairofscissors,youcancutthegrassinthefrontyardwithtweezers.”
Itturnsouttherearemoreefficientwaystodothingsandlessefficientwaystodothings.Andsometimesyoucareaboutefficiencyandothertimesyoudon'tcareaboutefficiency,sometimesit's
aboutthewalkthroughtheparkandtakingyourtimeandsmellingtherosesandjusthavingthatexperience,andthereareothertimesyoujust,youknow,maybesomebodylovestocutgrass.Therearesomethingsthatyoujustwanttogetdoneasfastasyoucangetthemdoneandasefficientlyasyou
can.
AndIthinkthattheparallelthereisontheonehandifyou'reinyourlearningexperienceforthesakeoflearning,andsomepeoplewhoareinuniversityalsohavetheseoutsidethingsthattheyactuallydojustbecausetheycareaboutlearningandtheyenjoyitasahobbyorbookcluborwhatever,youknow,then
youspendthetimeandyougetintotheflavourandtherichnessandyouwanttosavouritand,youknow,milkitforallit'sgot.
Butontheotherhandifyoujustneedacredentialsothatyoucanbeemployed,wellyoumightwantthiskindof,theruthlessefficiencyofMontyPython'sSpanishInquisition,right?Justasfastaspossible,
asefficientlyaspossible,getmethroughand,andifyoudon'tknowthedomainhavingsomeoneelsesetupastructureandsetupapaththat'srelativelyfreeofobstaclesandthingslikethatisusefulfor
you,toincreasetheefficiencyofthat,youknow,trajectorythroughthere.
SoIthinkthere'sroomforbothandIthinkit'sreallyaquestionofwhat'syourendgoal?Areyoulookingforthemostefficientpathpossiblethrough,eitherthroughasetoflearningexperiencesorapathtoacredentialorwhateverthatis?Andifyouwantthatefficiencythenyouprobablyneedsomebodyto
helpyouputthattogetherthatknowsmorethanyoudoaboutit,becauseifyouknewenoughaboutittostructureitinamaximallyeffectivewayyouprobablywouldn'tneedtolearnalotaboutthedomain.Orisitsomethingthatyoujustwanttospendsometimeinandspendsometimewithandabsorbmore
about?
AndsoIthinkuniversitiesarereallygoodforthiskindofhighlystructured,veryefficient,youknow,“here'showyoudoit,here'sthesupport,here'swhatever.”AndIdon'tthinkuniversitiesareparticularlygoodplacestospendalotoftimereallysoakingupalot,youknow,that's,that'ssomething
thatyouwoulddooutsideofthescheduleandthepaceandthewhatever,theuniversitywhichseemstobeaboutefficiency,andsometimesyouwantthatandsometimesyoudon'tIguessishowI'drespond.
Stephen:SeeI'm,I'mstill...Tome,collectingahundredthousanddollarstopayforauniversityeducationseemstobeabouttheleastefficientwayofgoingaboutdoingit.So,andthat's,that'sthe
thingthatsortofsticksinmymind.I'mpuzzledathowyoucanhaveWesternGovernorsUniversity,whichwillaccredit,orcredentialpeople,presumablyforanominalfee,Idon'tknowwhatthefeesareso...
David:It'ssignificantlylowerthan...
Stephen:Yeah.Andyetthere'sallthisactivityintheotherspace.ButIthinkthat's,that'sprobablyalso
partofwhatwe'retalkingabouttoo,is,youknow,ontheonehandyouhavethelowcost,freeoptionwhichispresumedtobebarebones,andontheotherhandyouhave...
(Phonerings)
David:Firstoneoftheday.
Stephen:Allright,youshouldgivethemaprize.Thehighcostoption.And,youknow,wehavethis,youknow,ifIhadadegreefromWesternGovernorsandyouhadadegreefromHarvard,whogetsthejob?
Youknow,soiftheobjectiveiscredentialingandiftheobjectofcredentialingistogetajob,thenitseemstomethattheWesternGovernorsUniversityapproachisgoingtobelesseffectivethantheHarvardapproach,andthatistheeffectivenessthatpeoplearebuying.
David:Wellinamarketthat'sverycompetitivethatwouldbetrue,buttakeamarketliketeacher
educationinastateorregionthatisjuststarvedforqualifiedteachers,isemployingteacherspossiblyevenoutsidethelawbecauseatleastthey'rewillingtocomeinandwork,buttheydon'thavethecredentialthattechnicallythey'rerequiredtohave.Now,ifinsteadofsendingthemthroughsixtyhours
ofschool,ifwecanjustgivethemsomeassessmentstoletthemdemonstratethatcredential,sothatlegallynowtheycanhavethisjobofbeingateacher,then,thenthat'sareallyusefulthingtobeableto
do,right?AndtheWesternGovernorscredentialisjustasgoodasanyothercredentialbecauseI'mnotcompetingwith,youknow,athousandotherpeopleforthisoneposition.I'minapositionwherethelawsaysIhavetohaveacertainpieceofpapertowork,there'snobodyinthis,youknow,ormaybe
nursing,there'snotenoughpeopleinthisspacebutyouhavetohaveadegree,sowhat'sthemostefficientpaththeycandofromhere?Dothey,orsothatIcandothatthingIwanttodo,thatpeoplewantmetodo,butthelawsaysI,nowIhavetohavethiscredentialbeforeIcanpractice.
Stephen:Ithinkwecantakeoutof,we'lltakeoutofthisfornow,Ithink,the,theassessmentpartofthis
andIthinkwecantaketheassessmentpartandputittooneside.
David:Yeah,becauseIthinkit'sonthescheduleforlateranyway.
Stephen:Isit?Idon'tknow.
David:Ithinkthat'sthethirdhour.
Stephen:Thirdhour,hourthree,yeah.
David:Ifyou'regoingtochangetopicsletmejustgetonemorethingin,becauseyousaidearlierthatopeneducationmeanschoicetoyou,andIwantedtocomebacktothat,andasonlyanacademiccanI
wanttotakefiveminutestoagree.Idon'tknowif,there'sa,there'sabookabout,abooktoteachyoutheRubyprogramminglanguagecalledWhy'sPoignantGuidetoRuby6,doyouknowthisbook?
Stephen:I'vereadit7.
David:Okay.So...AndWhyisW‐H‐Y,forthoseofyoufollowingonathome,“Whytheluckystiff.”IfyoutooktenbooksofftheshelfatBordersthatwerebooksaboutteachingyourselftowriteinRuby,what
you'dfindisifyoutorethecoversoffofthemyoucouldn'ttellanydifferencebetweenthematall.They'retheexampleshavenoflavour,they're...Andbasicallywhat'shappeninghereisyou'vegotabookthatyouwanttoaddresstoasbroadanaudienceaspossible,soyoutakeouteveryexample,
every,anythingthatwouldmakeitfeellikeitwasreallytargetedatacertaingroup,youtakeallofthoseinteresting,useful,cultural,contextualthingsoutandyouleavebasicallywhatlookslikeanencyclopaedia,somethingthat'scompletelyde‐contextualised,sothatwhenapersonpicksitupthey
don'tseeanythingthatoffendsthemandmakesthemthink“thisbookisn'twrittenforme,it'swrittenforsomeoneelse.”Sotodothatyouhavetomakeitasblandashumanlypossible.
Tome,openeducationisaboutchoicebecausenowIcanwritesomethingfulloflocalflavour,fulloflocalcontent,reallytargetitatmykidsortargetitatwhatevergroupIwantittobetargetedat,
somethinglikeWhy'sPoignant...YoupickupWhy'sPoignantGuide,youknowwithinthirtysecondswhetherthisisabookthat'sforyouornot,andifit,ifyoulikechunkybaconthenthat'sabook,youknow,that'sforyou.Ifcartoonfoxesmakeyouangrythenyoudon'twanttolearnRubyfromWhy's
PoignantGuide.But,butthetenbooksontheshelfatBordersparadeaschoicewheninfactthere'snomeaningfuldifferencebetweenanyofthem,exceptifyoulikeanimalsonthefront,youknow,youbuy
theO'Reillyoneorwhatever.ButwhenthingsareopenyoucanhavesomethinglikeWhy'sPoignantGuide,notthatit,Idon'twanttomake,saythatit'sanexampleofthebesteducationever.
Stephen:No,butit'sagoodexample.
David:Butitrepresentsachoice,becauseit'ssodifferentfromeverythingelseitactuallyisameaningfulchoicefromtheothertenbooksontheshelf.Andwhenmaterialismadeopenlyyoucanputallthat
flavourandpersonalityandstuffinthere,andthenwhenIshareityoucanpickitupandsay,youknow,“thisisgreat,theexamplesdon'tquiteworkforme,butIhavepermissiontochangethemsothattheymeetmyneeds,”right?Andsoit'stheabilitytoincludethatflavourandcontextandculture,butknow
thatsomeonethat'snotinyourtargetgroupcanstilltakeitandmakesomethingusefuloutofitanduseit,thatistheinterestingpartofchoiceinopeneducationtome,becausewecanprovideaseriesofthingsthatactuallyaremeaningfulchoicesfromeachother,andthenyoucantakethemanddowhat
6http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant‐guide/7http://www.downes.ca/cgi‐bin/page.cgi?post=31620
youwanttoitattheendoftheday.IthinkWhy'sPoignantGuideis,isagreatexample,notthe,maybenotthebestonebutthat'soneofthethingsthat'smostexcitingabout,tome,onthechoiceside.
Stephen:Now,oneofthethingsthatoccurredtomeasyousaythatisthe,the,theveryfactthatwe
havethesecommercialRubybooks,thisbook,thisbook,youknow,makessomethinglikeWhy'slesslikelytohappenbecause,youknow,ittakesalotofworktoproduceaguidetoRubyoraguidetoanything,andpeoplearelesslikelytodoitwhentheredoesn'tseemtobeaneedtodoit.
David:Orafinancialincentive,isthat,isthatwhereyou'regoingorareyouconsidering...
Stephen:Wellno,because,because,becausethemorenicheyourmarketisgoingtobe,whichiswhere
thischoicecomesfrom,thelessyourfinancialincentiveisgoingtobeinanycase,right?Youknow,youcan'tmakealivingwritingforleft‐handedalbinos,it'sjust,there'snotenoughofamarketthere,right?Andindeedassoonasyoubringinthecommercialelement,assoonasyoubringintheideaoffinancial
incentives,you'repushing,youcreateasystemwhichhasasoneofitsbasicimpulsiveforcesapushtowardthatkindofblandtextbookthat'swrittenforeveryone,becausethat'stheonethatisgoingtosellthemost.And,andsoyougettheseblandtextbooksandtheseblandtextbooks,because,you
know,nowthey'resubsidisedbycommercialsalestheyexist,theytakeupthespaceinthebookshelf.AnditreallytakessomeonespecialtocomealongandwriteaWhy'sbecause,youknow,themarketissaturated,themarketissaturatedwithbland,notrealchoiceoptions.Andsothevery,thevery
existenceofthefinancialmotivetocreateitselfarguesagainstthepossibilityofchoice.
David:Andsointheearlydaysofthefieldwhenpeoplesaid“ohwe'lljustgooutandwe'llfund,youknow,thebestalgebracourseintheworldandwe'llfundthebestgeometryandthebestAmericanliteratureandwhatever,”thenitjustmakesyouwanttoputyourheadthroughawallandsay“no,we
needahundredalgebracoursesorweneedathousandalgebracourses,andeachoneofthemneedstobetargetedatarealgroupandtheyneedtoactuallybemeaningfullydifferentfromeachother,and
whenIlookatthemIwanttobeable...WhenIseetheonethat'sformeIwanttorecogniseitwhenIseeit.”Not,youknow,one,certainlynotone,andnottenthataretotalclonesofeachother,thatarenotmeaningfullydifferent.
Stephen:Yeah.Theclone,yeah,theclonecourses,there'snopointtothem,itbecomesallabout
brandingandmarketingwhenit'stheclonecourse.
I'mnotsure.Yousaytenalgebracourses.I'mnotevensureweneedtenalgebracoursesinthesensethat,youknow,eventhesamenessinherentinthedescription'algebracourses'istoomuchofacloning.But,but,again,that'sprobablytakingusoffintoanotherdigressionbecause,wellbecausewe...
AnotherofthethingsthatDavidandIhavedisagreedaboutovertheyearsisthenatureoflearning
objects.
David:Oh,thattookalmostanhour.
Stephen:Yeah.Well,but...
David:Butit'susefulbecausetalkingaboutopeneducationalresources,andtalkaboutduckingabulletorgettingoutofthequestionwithoutreallyansweringit,Ithinkagoodwayofdescribingopen
educationalresourcesis,oraopeneducationalresource,aneducationalresource,isalearningobjectplusanopenlicense.
Stephen:Yeah,that'sonewayoftalkingaboutit.
David:AndnowI'vedefinedatermwithanothertermthatnooneknowswhatitmeanseither.
Stephen:Well,justtobringusfullcircle,myowndefinitionoflearningobjectisanythingthatcanbeusedforlearning.Whichbringsuscompletelyfullcirclebacktowherewestartedbecausebythat
definitionanything,utterlyanything,canbealearningobjectprovidedthatsomewhere,sometime,someonehasinfactusedit.Andindeedwecangowiththemobileversionofthatdefinition“hasthepotentialtobeused.”
Butitdoesraisethis,thispicture.Wethinkoflearningcontent,wehavethispictureinourmind,it
needstobecourses,itneedstobetextbooks,itneedstobe,youknow,organisedandsetup,andIdon'tthinkso,andIdon'tthinkthatyouthinksoeither.Ithinkthatyoucanliveinaworldwhereapictureofaduckisalearningobject,properlysocalled,andwhereapictureofaduckisanopen
educationalresource.
Andgiventhatthereare,Icancheck,butprobablytensofthousandsoffreelylicensedpicturesofaduckonline,wedon'tinfacthaveashortageofopeneducationalresources.Sotheproblemisn'tthat.Theproblemissomethingelse.
Andpartofmyargumentistheproblemisthestructuresthatwehaveinplace,includinguniversities,
thatpreventusfromtakingthepictureofaduckandinsomewayforourselvesassembling,ifyouwill,ourowneducation.Andtherearethesebarriersallthewaydowntheline,fromtheverydefinitionof
openeducationalresourcesandlearningobjects.
Youknow,onmymorecynicaldays,andI'manticipatingsomeoftheargumentthatwillcomeuplater,onmymorecynicaldaysIthinkthattheconceptoflearningobject,withitseightysevenfieldsinthelearningobjectmetadataandcontactpackagingandallofthat,wasdeliberatelydesignedinorderto
preventtherebeingopeneducationalresources,becauseitbecomessohardtocreatethemandtomountthemandtousethem.Andreallyallweneededwerepicturesofducks.
Andifwehadsetupoursystemdifferently,wherewecreatedsystemsthatempoweredandenabledlearnersinsteadof,youknow,runningthemthroughthecattlechute,wecouldhavehadbynowa
mechanismwherepeoplecantakethesepicturesofducks,picturesofcowsand,youknow,and,withtheircommunities,createtheirownlearning.SowhenIlookatwhatarewetryingtodoinopeneducationalresources,andit'slikethatOECDconferencewewereatinMalmo8,where...
8http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/12/46/36162143.pdf
David:Don'teverconveneaconferenceinMalmoinFebruaryagain,please.
Stephen:Yeah,thatwaskindofamistake,wasn'tit?Andoneofthequestionsthatcameupwas,youknow,whatneedstobedoneinordertosupportopeneducationalresources?ThepositionIadvanced
thereandIcontinuetoadvancehereis:getoutoftheway.Youknow,it'snotaquestionofprovidingthings,it'saquestionoftakingawaybarriers,takingawayrestrictions.Andthatrunsinmymindcompletelycountertoanythingthatresemblesacommercialmarketplaceforlearningmaterials.
David:Iwaswithyourighttothatlastphrase,althoughIthinkwearegoingtouncoveradeeper
disagreementhere,usefully.Soletmeback‐trackforasecondtoworkuptoit.
Idoimagineaworldinwhichapictureofaduckisalearningobjectandanopeneducationalresource.ButIwouldalsosaythatacoursecouldbealearningobject‐fullystructured,syllabus,exams,thewholeshebang‐andthatthatfullcoursecouldalsobeanopeneducationalresource.Andthatthereis,
dependingonthenuanceyouwanttogivetotheconversation(Ihaveahunchwhichdirectionwe'llgo),youcouldrefertoiteitherasanecologyorasamarket.
Buttherearesomepeople,comingbacktothepointImadeearlier,andI'lltrynottodothattoooften,therearesomepeoplethatwantastructured,efficientpaththroughthe...Infact,theydon'twanttobe
runthroughthechutelikecattlebecausethatimpliesothercows.“GetoutofthewayandletmerunasfastasIcandownthispath.”Therearepeoplethatwantthat,andtherearepeoplethatwanttheother.
Andsoweneed,dependingonwhetheryouwanttocallitamarketwithseveraldifferentthingscompetingwitheachother,orjustanecologywheretherearedifferentalternativesthatallkindof
coexist,youneedthepictureofaduckandyouneedwhatever,butyoualso,toservethepersonthatwantsthemoreefficientpath,youwantthecourse.
Sotome,whenyoutalkaboutalearningobjectoranopeneducationalresource,andyousaid,yousaid
alearningobjectisany,anyresourceIcanusetolearn,orsomethinglikethat,orthatIcouldusetolearninthebroaderdefinition.
ThisisoneplacewherewehavedisagreedbecauseI'vealwaysinsertedtheword'digital'intothatdefinition,becausethethingthatstartedmeonthisjourney,partofwhereIcomefrom,isthis
realisationthatwhenaresourceisdigital,thatbandwidthandRAMoverlooked,youknow,basicallyanunlimitednumberofpeoplecanallusethatresourceatthesametime.Andthereisnoprintingcostandwarehousingcostanddistributioncostandreceivingcostandwhateverelse;it's,it'ssomethingthatI
canwriteonceandthatIcancopybasicallyforfree,giveawaybasicallyforfree,andabunchofpeoplecanuseitbasicallyforfree.
Andthatnon‐rivalrousnatureofthedigitalresourceissomething,tome,thatseemsimportanttoenablelargescale,lowcostornocost,access.SowhenLTSChadthisdefinitionoflearningobjectsthat
includedpeopleandplacesandhistoricaleventsliketheWarof1812‐theeventwasalearningobject,orJoanofArc,theperson,isalearningobject‐itmademealittlecrazybecauseIthoughtwe'regetting
awayfromthespecialthingthatenabledthelargescale,lowcostdistributionthatIthinkis,Ithoughtwaswhatwewereafter.
Sothatdigitalpiecewas...Nowitdoesn'tmeanthatyoucan'ttakedigitalandthendomoreofaprint
ondemandordo,ordodifferentthingswithitinordertogetittothepeoplethatneedit.Butintermsoffreecopy,freedistribution,freewhatever,itbeingdigitalhasbeenimportanttomefromthe,fromthebeginning,asAnya,Anyawroteaboutthestoryofthecalculatortheotherday.
Stephen:Okay,thenletmejuststopyouhere.Ontheonehandyousayafullcoursecanbeanopen
educationalresource,ontheotherhandyousayithastobedigital.Soyou'resayingafullcoursecanbedigital?
David:Ooh,youmayhavecaughtme,letmethink.Yeah,sobyfullcourseIguesswhatImeanttosaywasthefull...WhatdidImeantosay?Certainlythefullcollectionofcontentthatyouuseforthecourse,
obviously.Butincreasingly,mostorallofthehumaninteractionyouhavearoundthatcontentcanbedigitalaswell.ButIdon'tknow,I'mnotsurehowfarIwanttogodownthatpath.WhenIsaidit,Iwastalkingaboutthefullcontentofthecourse.
Stephen:Yeah,yeah,you'vegottomeansomethinglikeacoursepackage,andtherearedifferentways
ofstructuringthesethings,right?
David:WhichcouldbeapictureofaduckandapictureofacowthatsomeotherpersonthathassomeexpertiseinfarmanimalhusbandryhasfoundandputtogetherinastructuredwayformesothatIdidn'thavetospendmytimegoingandfindingthosethings.Atthebottomitmaybethesamevery
looselyknitcollectionofresources,it'sjustthatbecause,ifIcareaboutefficiency,maybeI'mwillingtopaysomeoneelsetofindthemandstructurethemformeinsteadofmehavingtodoitmyself.
Stephen:Yeah.I'mgoingto‐that'sanotherthing,you'vehitthispointafewtimes,thecoursebeingthe
mostefficient.
David:Notthemostefficient,moreefficientthanmeflounderingaboutinadomainIknownothingabout.
Stephen:Whatwouldbethemostefficientthen?
David:Idon'tknowwhatwouldbethemostefficient.
Stephen:Well,Imeanbecauseyou'retheone,itseemstome,who'sbeensayingthecourseisthemostefficient,andthenyousaymoreefficientthanflounderingaround.Well,thoseclearlyaren'ttheonly
twochoices.
David:No,absolutelynot.
Stephen:Okay.Moreefficient,well...Eventhere,youknow,efficiencyisaratioofobtainingsomesortofendorobjectivedividedbycost,okay?Ifyoudefineefficiencythatwayit'shardtoseehowacourse,
whichcomesinatthousandsandthousandsofdollars,isefficient.Butthat'sanaside,arelevantasidebutnonethelessanaside.
WhatI'mwonderingherethoughis,whenyousayacourseisthemostefficient,whatcanthisgoalor
outcomebethatthecourseisthemostefficientpathto?Nowatthebeginningofthisthingwesaidourobjectiveis,youknow,thegoodlife,pursuingone'sowngoodinone'sownway.Isacoursethemostefficientwaytothat?
Onewonders,well,whydon'twejusthaveacourseofreachingthegoodlifeanddispensewithallthe
restofit?Itprobablyisn't,youknow,ifpeoplethoughtthatacoursewouldleadthemtothegoodlifetheywouldn'tdoalltherestofthestuffthattheydo.Andthis,thisiswhyIchallengeyouonwhatacourseis,becausewhatacourseisnotjustthematerials,notevenjusttheorganisationorpresentation
ofmaterials,butallthediscussionandthedialogueandthecommunitythathappensaroundthesethings,right?
David:Thatcanhappenaroundthem.Imeantherearehonestlycourseswherethere'snodiscussionordialogueoranythingthathappens.
Stephen:Well,yeah,andthenonewonderswhethertheyareefficient.Youknow,wehavetheone
pictureoflearningwherewecandefineefficiencyastakingxcontentandmovingitfrominstructorAandinsertingitintostudentB.Idon'tthinkthat'samodeloflearningthateitherofushas.
David:Well,I'llarguewithyouaboutthatinaminute.
Stephen:Ohokay,right,okay.We'regoingtohavelotsoffunwiththat,aren'twe?Ithinkthatamoreappropriateaccountoflearning,andindeedanaccountthatismorealignedwithanobjectivelike
pursuingone'sowngoodinone'sownway,isnotacquiringknowledgeasthoughitweresomesortofobjectbutactuallyre‐shaping,re‐modelling‐that'sabadword,ithassomanyconnotationswith,you
know,re‐modellingyourlivingroom‐but,butgrowing,developing,becomingacertainsortofperson.
And,inmymind,there'sarealdisconnectbetweenacoursepackageandthatresult.Andpartofthediscussionaboutopeneducationalresourceshasbeen,inmymind,almostacommodificationoflearningasthiskindofthing.Youknow,“ifonlywehadthesecontentpackageswecouldmost
efficientlygetthemintopeople'sheads.”Andthatcertainlydoesn'tseemtobewhatthelearnersarelookingfor.Maybeitis,itdoesn'tseemtobewhatthelearnersarelookingfor,anditcertainlydoesn'tseemtometobethemodeloflearningthatwewanttobeworkingwith.Whichmeansthatwhenwe're
talkingaboutopenlearningandopeneducationalresourcesweneedtohaveamorenuancedviewofwhatopenlearningactuallyis,andnotjust,youknow,awarehouse,let'sshipitoutlikeitwastextbooks.
David:SoI'mnotembarrassedtosaythatIthinkyouprobablyreadevenmoreoftheresearchthanIdo,
becauseyouseemtoneversleep,alwaysbereadingorwritingsomething.Andyou,youcanthrowstudiesoutifyouwanttotakeissuewiththewaytheymeasurewhetherlearninghashappenedornot,butIdon'tthinkthatyou'lldisagreethatthere'sstrongconsensusintheliteraturethatthere'sa‐letme
saythiscorrectly‐aninverserelationshipbetweenaperson'sknowledgeofadomainandtheirneedforstructuretofurthertheirlearninginthedomain.
SoifI'macompletenovice,ifI,ifI'veneverheardtheword'geometry'before‐ifIdon'tknowapoint
fromalinefromaplane‐Ineedalotofhelp.IfI'vetakenacoupleofcoursesingeometry,nowI'mmaybeinaMaster’sprogrammeinmathorsomething,youcanprobablysetmelooseonthewebtogofindresourcestoteachmyselfandIcan,andIcantakemytimeandIcanhavethisotherkindof
experience,whichwasreallynotpossibleformewhenIknewabsolutelynothingaboutthedomain.
So,again,comingbacktothisideaoftheecologyorthemarketorwhatever,andtodisagreewithyourpointaboutFreire'sbankingnotionofeducation9,aboutjustpouringstuffintopeople'sheadoraboutitbeingabouttransfer,wesay“that'snotthekindofeducationthatwe'relookingfor,justtransferring
knowledgefromthefacultytothestudent,fromtheteachertothestudent.”Eventuallyit'snot,butI'mnotsurehowelseyoubegin,unlessyou'rereallywillingtodedicatealifetimetosomehowrediscoveringforyourself,throughadiscoveryprocess,youknow,thefundamentalaxiomsofgeometryorsomething.
Now,there'svalueinthatexperience,therearepeoplewhowouldliketohavethatexperience,that
wouldchooseto,soweneedtoprovideresourcestosupportthembecausechoiceispartofwhatwe'retalkingabout.Buttherearealsopeoplethat,forwhateverreason,justwanttogetabasichandleongeometryandreallydon'twanttospendmorethanfifteenweeksonit,andthey'rewillingtopaythree
hundredandfiftydollarsacredithourforsomebodytohelpthemdoinfifteenweekswhatwouldhavetakenthemtwoorthreeyearsorwouldhavebeenimpossibleforthemotherwise.
SoIthinkthatthisisacontinuum.AndIthink‐Ihatethesetermsmorethanyoudoeven,butI'mgoingtousethemanywaybecausethey'rejusttheeasiestshorthandtouse‐anovicejustneedsmore
support,needsmorestructure,needsmorehelp.Andasthatpersongrowsinexpertiseinadomainthentheyreachapoint,somewhereinthemiddlemaybe,wheretheycanstarttolearnontheirown
withoutthatcoaching,withouttheguidance,withoutsomeoneelsestructuringitforthem.Untileventuallytheyreachthepointwherethey'reactuallygeneratingnewknowledgeinthefield;that,thatit'snotstuffthey'velearnedanywhere,thisissomethingthatthey'vereachedsuchamasterythatthey
can,youknow,theycangeneratenewinsights,newusefulthingsthatpeoplehaveneverseenbefore.
SoIdon'tthinkit'sfairtosaythatwedon't,wedon'twant'bankingeducation'kindofeducation.AlthoughnowI'mbeingstreamedasdisagreeingwithFreireIwon'tbeabletosleeptonight.ButIdothinkatsomepointtherearesomepeople...Imeanifyou'regoingtocomeintobiologyorgeometry
youjusthavetomemoriseallof,there'sawholevocabularyyouhavetoknoworyoujustwillnotbeworkableinthefield.Andwetalkaboutgrowthlearninganddrillandkillandwhatever,webelittleit,butItellyouwhat,ifyoudon'thavethatbasicunderstandingofvocabulary,thetermsandthe
meaning...
OnemorestorybeforeIletyourespond.Igot,IgotinaprettygoodfightwithTomDuffyatareceptionatARAacoupleofyearsback,onthistopic,aboutmultiplicationpapers.Tom'swhatIwould
9http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/philosophy/education/freire/freire‐2.html
characteriseasamoreradicalconstructivist,maybenotcompletelyradicalconstructivist.Buthewassayingtome:“it'sunconscionablethatweaskpeopletomemorisemultiplicationtables.Whatwe
shoulddoissomethinglikeweshouldsetupastoreintheschoolclassroom,weshouldhavepeoplebuy,kidsshouldbuythreeapplesandthentheyshouldbuyfiveorangesandthey,theyshouldhavethisexperience,youknow,somanytimesthateventuallyitjust,youknow,thattheylearn,theydiscoverfor
themselves,whatever,theycometoamasteryofthemultiplicationtablesthroughthisprocessofdoing,andnotjustsittinginacornerwithachartandmemorisingmultiplicationtables.Andinfact,ifyoumemorisethemultiplicationtablesit'simpossibleforyoutoactuallyunderstandwhatmultiplicationis
andmeans.”AndIsaid“Tom,Imemorisedmymultiplicationtables.”Andhesaidtome“youdon'tknowwhatmultiplicationisorwhatitmeans.”Sorry,itseemedrelevant.
Stephen:Andit'sanicereductio.Okay,coupleoflineshereofreasoning.AndIwanttobeclearfirstofallthatI'mnotinapositionwhereI'madvocatingapurelyconstructiviststancetolearning,Iamnot
advocatingapurelydiscoverylearningmodel,andIwanttobecarefulnottobecaricaturedasthat,okay?Now,it'sthe,thewhole,youprobablysawthestuffIwroteaboutKirschner,ClarkandSweller10,and,youknow,it's,it'satacticthatthatsortofgroupuses,right?“Ohyouhavetodiscovereverything
foryourself,youhavetoreinventmodernphysics,”whichisabsurd,right?Yeah.Tookusthree,four,whatever,thousandsofyears,ahumanisn'tgoingtodothatintheirlifetime.
AndanotherthingIwanttosay,andbereallyclearabout,memorisationworks,weknowthis,right,wehavetonsofempiricalevidence,youcanindeedmemoriseyourmultiplicationtables.AndIwill,Iwill
sayveryclearlythatIthinkyoustillcanunderstandwhatmultiplicationmeanseventhoughyouhavememorisedthemultiplicationtables,althoughitmaytakeyoualifetimeofclosestudyinordertogetatthat.Ioncetooka,aclassinthephilosophyofmathematicsand,youknow,sittingtherequestioning
likethebasicprincipleofsubstitutivity,“Canyouactuallyputafiveinthisplacewhereyouhadafourbefore,isthatalegitimatemove?”And,youknow,wellthat'sagoodquestion,right?Justbecausethis
formulaworkswithafive...Anyhow,totallyaside.
Sograntthat,okay,wecangrantthat,peoplecanlearnbymemorising.Thatthat'sinfacttheproblem,peoplecanlearnanythingbymemorising,doesn'tmatterwhetherit'strueorfalse.Andinfacttheunrestraineduseofmemorisationinlearninghas,asitsmostdevastatingconsequence,notthefactthat
peoplefailtolearn,butratherthefactthatpeoplelearnthingsthatareverydamaginglike'myraceisthebest,'or...
David:Indoctrinationorpropaganda.
Stephen:Yeah.Soontheonehand,yeah,memorisethemultiplicationtables,okay,fairenough.Butthereisn'tmuchfurtherbeyondmultiplicationtableswhenlearningbecomesnotsimply
straightforward,axiomaticfact.Thequestionsofvaluebegintocomein,andtocomein.Andthenthemodeloflearningasbeingguidedtakesontwoaspects:oneaspectis,youknow,theacquisitionofknowledge,whateverthatmaybe;andtheotheraspectisofcoursetheacquisitionortheforminginto
apersonofacertaintype,andteachingbecomesapracticeofreplicatingthattypeofperson.
10http://halfanhour.blogspot.com/2007/12/free‐learning‐and‐control‐learning‐on.html
David:Soareyouagreeingthatasyoumovefrombeingacompletenoviceandgrowinexpertisethatthatstructurethat'snecessaryforyoudoesfade,canfadeaway?
Stephen:No,allofwhatIsaidnowisapreludetoaddressingthenovicequestion,okay?And,andI'llsay
it,I'llsayitthestridentwayfirst,andthestridentwayisthatoneofthemostsignificantaccomplishmentsoftheeducationalsystemthatwehavehasbeentoconvincepeoplethattheyarenovicesfromearlychildhoodallthewaythroughintomid‐adulthood,theyneverstopbeingnovices.
Youknow,I...
David:Theydon'tactuallyeverstopbeingnovicesorweconvincethemthattheyneverstopbeingnovices?
Stephen:Weconvincethem.Afteragesthreeorfourthey'vestoppedbeingcompletenovices,right?AtthreeorfourIcanunderstandyou'regoingtohavetogivethemsomeguidancebecausethey'llwalk
ontotheroad,theyreallyarethatill‐educated,right?Andsoweneedtopreventthemfromwalkingontotheroad.ButImean,youknow,youhaveapersonwhoisenteringuniversity,they'reeighteenyearsold,they'vegonethroughtwelveyearsofformalschooling,eighteenyearsofinformallearning,
andyouturntothemandsay“youareanovice.”Thereactionofthispersonquiteproperlyshouldbe“whatworldareyoulivingin?”Youknow,sothefact,ifitisafact,thattheyarenovicesastheyenteruniversityisanartefactofoureducationalsystem.Wehavecreatedthissituation.
David:SocanIpushonyouwithanexampleortwo?
Stephen:Goforit.
David:IwasgoingtouseSpanishbutthat'sunimaginableintheUnitedStatesrightnow.SoI'venever
heard,neverread,neverseenRomanian‐spoken,written‐asanexample.Igotouniversity,IdecideI'mgoingtotakeacourseinRomanian.NowIdobringacertainamountofknowledgeaboutmyown
languagetothatexperience,butwithregardtoRomanian,amInotactuallyacompletenoviceatthatpoint?
Stephen:DependsonhowyoudefineRomanian,right?IfyoudefineRomanianasthesetoffactsrelatedtothelanguage,spokenandwritten,of...
David:Thevocabulary,thegrammar.
Stephen:Right,thenyouareanovice.ButifyourepresentRomanianasasystemforcommunication,
onehumantoanother,you'vegotninetypercentofwhatyouneedalready,theonlythingmissingisthelittlecodethattheyusetoexpress'I'mhungry'insteadofthecodethatyouuse.Youknow...
David:Iknowwhatnounsare,Iknowwhatverbsare,Iknowwhatpunctuationmeans,I,IhaveallthatbackgroundfromEnglish.
Stephen:Yeah.Soyou'rereallynotanovice,youcouldinfactpickupRomanianremarkablymorequicklyinfactthananativeRomanianspeaker,becauseittookthenativeRomanianspeakertenyears,
fifteenyears,tolearnRomanian,you'regoingtodoitinacoupleofyears.
David:Weren'ttheyspeakingitbythetimetheywerethreeorfour?AndwillIeverspeakaswellastheydo?
Stephen:WellImeanIthinkafterevenayearofRomanianlessonsyou'regoingtospeakRomanianaswellasafouryearoldRomanian,it'sempirical,wecouldtestthat.But,youknow,tobecome
conversant,ImeannobodywouldsaythatafouryearoldRomanianisconversantinRomanian,right?Theycangetbybut,youknow,askthemaquestioninmetaphysics,they'llbestumped,right?
David:Sonooneisacompletenoviceinanythingbeyondtheageofthreeorfourbecausethere'ssomelifeexperienceyou'vehadsomewherethatyoucansomehowmeaningfullybringtobearonwhatever
contentareayoumightenterinto,istheargument,right?
Stephen:Right.
David:Okay.
Stephen:Now,additionally,themechanismthatwehaveofdeliveringlearning,firstofallorganisedintocourses‐science,art,psychology,biology,whatever‐andthensegmentedintoclasses,again,perpetuatesthisthing,thisideathatpeoplearenovices,becausetheygettobeanoviceevery
September,right?There'sawholenewcourse,right?Andwhentheygotouniversityit'sevenbetter,there'sawholenewsubject,entiresubjectareasthatdidn'texist.Butthisisaccomplishedagainby,by,byre‐shaping,Iusethephraseinmyhead“byflakingandforminglearningintothesepackagesand
deliveringittothemasthoughitwere,youknow,Kraftdinner.”
Infact,youtalkabouthowsomebodyneedstoknowthevocabulary,how,howtheycan'tevencommunicateunlesstheyknowthewordsandwhatthewordsmean.Wecanand,and,andshould,and
insomecasesdo,putpeoplefromveryearlyagesintocommunitieswheretheyspeakusingthosetermsandthatterminology.Now,again,thinknotaboutareaswhereyou'reanovice,thinkaboutareaswhereyouhavesomeexpertise,somepractice,especiallyifit'snotatraditionaloneofthesubjects,right?
Maybeit'sahobbyorsomethinglikethat,andthinkbackabouthowyouacquiredyourknowledgeinthatarea.Andofcoursebydefinition,becauseIjustdefinedit,youdidn'ttakeaclassinthat,butratheryoupickeditupbytalkingtopeoplewhoarealreadyinthatcommunity,thetradingcards,right?There
areno,Iassumetherearenoformalclassesintradingcards,right?Or,or,youknow,oreven,youknow,baseball,right,okay,thereareclassesinbaseball,butnobodytakesthem.
David:Orprogramming.
Stephen:Orprogrammingisanothergoodexample.Andwhathappensispeoplestartplayingbaseballorprogrammingcomputersfromanearlyage,butnotsimplydoingthat,theyengageinthis
conversationwithotherpeoplewhodoit.Andit'sintheprocessofthisconversationthattheyacquiretheknowledge,theyacquirethelanguage,theexpressions,and,youknow,throughpersonal
communicationwithotherpeoplemoreandlessexpertthanthemselvestheygraduallyacquirethisexpertiseinthedomain.So...
David:SoIwouldn'tdisagreethere,butIthinkbaseball,andIdowanttotakeusbacktoopen
educationalresourcesandtrytobridgeback.
Stephen:Andbaseballisatleastascomplexasmathematics.
David:Yeah.ButIthinkyoucansee,youcanseeexamplesofkidswhostartplayingbaseballatfiveoreightorlittleleague,whateveritis,andtheyplayforfouryears.Andyouputtwoteamstogetherandonejustbeatstheheckoutoftheotherteam,andthere'sobviouslybeenadifferenceintheefficiency
ofthetrainingthat'sgoneonduringthatsameperiodoftime,okay?Becauseinthesamefouryearsyou'vegotsomekidswhohavelearnedtoplaybaseballalotbetterthananotherteamofkidswho'vebeenplayingforthesamefouryears.
Andyouwouldassumethedifferenceisinthecoaching,inthestructureofthepractices,inthekindsof
exercisestheydidinpractice,andthewaythecoachstructuredtheexperiencesthatthosekidshad.Ifallofthesekidsarereallybetteratbaseballthanalloftheseandthey'vebeenplayingforthesameperiodoftime,youhavetoattributethatdifferenceto...Imeanifthere'sonekidwho'sreally,you
know,who'sreallyastarandhe'smoreathleticorwhatever,butifyou'vegotawholeteamwithsuperiorskillswhichyoucanseebythetimetheygettotwelveorthirteenandtheystartplayinginter‐leaguekindofgames,youreallydostarttoseethedifferenceaneffectivecoachhasversusaguylike
mewho,youknow,coachesmyboy'sbasketballteam,butit'sreallyaboutgettingthemexcitedforthegameandmakingsuretheyenjoyit,andthere'snotthisemphasisreallyonskilldevelopmentandconditioningandsomethingelsethatmaybeanothercoachdoes.
Stephen:Well,whatyou'vemadethestatementissomethingalongthelinesof:'allotherthingsbeing
equal,coachingmakesadifference,'right?Allotherthingsarerarelyequal.
David:Allotherthingsbeingequalenoughthough,Iwouldsay.
Stephen:Well,youthinkthat'strue?
David:Yeah,Imeanthecommunity,thecommunitythatIliveinnowcertainlyisavery,agroup,isaplacewherealotofpeoplearelikealotofotherpeopleinthiscommunity.Andalotoftheseteams,if
youjustlinedthemupandlookedatthem,ifyoureadtheirSES(Socio‐EconomicStatus)dataorwhatever,youwouldsay“Idon'treallyseeadifference.They'reallaboutthistall,they'reallthisracialbackground,they'reallthisSES,they'reallwhatever.”Andthenoneofthemjustbeatsthesnotoutof
theother.
Stephen:Becausewhenyou'vetakenalltheseothervariablesoutoftheequation,thenthesignificantdifferenceistheteacher,right?But,youknow,takingalltheseothervariablesoutoftheequationsimplymagnifiestheimpactofthatteacher.
David:Areyouarguingagainsttheimpactofteaching?
Stephen:Iam,becausethere'sawholelineofreasoningthat'splaysarolehere.Ithinkthatteachingisonefactorintheattainmentoftheirbaseballskills,orwhateverskills,Idonotthinkitistheonlyfactor.
David:Idon'tthinkthatanybodywouldarguethatit'stheonlyfactor.
Stephen:Idon'teventhinkit'sthemostimportantfactor.AndinfactIthinkthatouremphasison
teachingasbeingreally,reallysignificantherecomessimplybecausewecontinuallyexaminestatesofaffairswheretheyareasyou'vedescribed;they'reallthesamesocio‐economicbackground,they'reallthesameage,they'reallthesamerace,etcetera.
David:Ifyoudidn'tisolatethosevariablesthough,howwouldyoustudythecontributionofteaching?
Stephen:Whyisitimportanttostudythecontributionofteachinginisolationfromalltherestofthose
things?
David:Iassumeyouwanttoknowifit...Rhetoricalquestion?
Stephen:Well,well,alittlebitbecauseitsuggeststhatteachingcanhaveanimpactindependentofallofthoseotherthings,itsuggeststhatthe,the,theactoflearningissomethingthatcanbebrokendownintoitsconstituentcauses.Butthisisreallyamultipledependentvariablesituation,where,youknow,
taketheverysameteachingandputitintoaclassroomintheDominicanRepublic,maybe,or...
David:Yeah.
Stephen:Right.So,youknow,youisolateforallyourvariables,thenyoulookatyourteaching,yourteachingworksbutonlyinthecontextwhereallofthesevariablesaresuchandsuch,changetheseothervariablesandtheverysameteachingbecomes,youknow,probably...Well,notprobably,Idon't
know,butcouldbeanegativeinfluence.Sowe'recreatingafiction,aren'twe,when,whenwedothesestudiesandisolatealltheseothervariablesandsay“ooh,thisisgoodteaching,thisisit.”We'vecreatedthisfiction,it'snotevenknowledge,notevenafact,andwhenyougetgoodenoughatthesestudies
youcomeupwiththefactsfirst,thatyouwant,andyousetupyourstudyandthenyouextractthem.
David:I'masbig,canyoubeabigun‐fan?ButwhatamItryingtosay?
Stephen:You'reasscepticalas...
David:I'massceptical,thankyou,asanybodyaboutthingsliketheWhatWorksClearingHouse11,andIhadalittleblogtiradingthatwholeparadigmofresearchrecently.12ButI'mnot...I'vegottwothings
competinginmymindhere.Idothink,Idothinkthattherearethingswecanlearnbystudyingteachingthatcanmakepeoplemoreeffectiveteachers.Andwhatmoreeffectiveteachersmeansisthateitherinthesameperiodoftimeastudentcanlearnmoreandrememberitlonger.Youcouldcomeupwitha
numberofdefinitions,butIdothinktherearepeoplewhowanttohaveamoreefficientexperiencethantheywouldhavebythemselves.Andifthat'strue,ifit's,ifit'struethenthere'sawholerangeof
11http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/12http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/980
efficienciesImightbeabletohave,Imighthavetopaymoreforsome,themostefficientonesmightbefree,Idon'tknow.
ButifIhaveasensethatthere'ssomebodyouttherethat,asI'msittinghereI'veignoredthe
repositoriesandI'vegonetoGoogle,I'veignoredLTSC‐LOMandI'veusedRSS,I've,youknow,I'vegoneonthesimple,highlyadoptedsideofthiswholething,notonthetechnicallearningobject,I'vegonewiththesimple,winningtechnologies.IfoundallthethingsIcanfind.
Icangiveyouagreatexamplethatisdrivingmeinsanerightnow,ItoldyouearlierI'mworkingonthis
analysisofcovarianceofsomedataI'mlookingat.Itookaclassinthistenyearsago,Ipassedtestsinthistenyearsago.Ispenthoursyesterday,Ispentonehouractuallywiththeconsultantforthestatisticsprogramme,andthenseveralhoursinGooglegoingthroughalltheseresources.Andthisis
theoreticallysomethingIknewatsomepointinthepast.I'mdiggingaround,I'mdiggingaround.IspentIdon'tknowhowmanyhourslastnight.Itwashighlyinefficient,itwasveryfrustrating.It'ssomethingthat,intheory,Ididhavesomeexpertiseinatsomepointintime,andIwouldhavegivenjustabout
anythingifIcouldhavegottenahumanbeingtherewhocould'veincreasedtheefficiencyanddecreasedthefrustratingness,ifthat'saword,ofmyexperience.Iwantedthat,anditwasmidnightandtherewasnowayformetogetitandIgaveupandwenttobed.ButIwouldchalkthatuptomybeing
sortofnoviceyinstatistics,nothavingdonealotwithitfortenyears,sinceItookthatseriesofcoursesthatIhad,andnotevenhavingenoughbasicknowledgetogointotheresourcesthatareavailable,andthere'sgoodresourcesthere,andcomeoutontheothersideabletodothekindofanalysisthatI
wantedtodo.It'sinefficient,it'sfrustrating,Iwantedateacher.
Stephen:Ijustwanttosayonethingbeforethebreak.Ithinkalot'sgoingtohingeonthisdefinitionofefficiency,Idon'tthinkyoucansustainitpersonally,andIfinditironicthatthestuffthatyoutooka
seriesofcoursesinisthethingthatyounowfindyourselfanovicein.SoIthinkthatthere'sefficiencyandefficiency,andwhatyoubelievedonceuponatimewasyourobjective,andthequickestwaytogetthere,wasinfactawayofmisrepresentinglearningthatyouhad,thatledyoudownafalsepath.You
wentveryquicklyinthewrongdirection.
David:IwouldargueIwentveryquicklyintherightdirectionandInevertoucheditagainfortenyears.Youignoreanythingfortenyears‐almostanything,maybenotridingabike‐youignoreanythingfortenyearsandyou'regoingtobeworseatitthanyouwere.
Stephen:Ridingabikeislikeaskill,it'slikegrowing,wecomebacktowhatIthoughtlearningwas.Let's
takeourbreakandwe'llcomebacktoit.
Chris:Wehaveafewminutes,we'llcontinueafterthebreak,we'llhaveaboutfifteenminutes.
David:You'reagreatmoderatorbytheway.
PartTwo‐Education,LearningandLicensingRecordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley2.mp3
• EducationvsLearningandthe'EducationalLicense'Debate• 'Enclosure',orNon‐LicenseMethodstoBlockAccesstoOERs• TheNCClauseofCreativeCommonsLicenses• MixingContent,MixingLicenses
Moderator:PaulStacey
David:SothewholereasonthatItookusdownthethirtyminutenoviceexpertpaththere‐whichIdon'tthinkIapologisefor‐wasjusttosaythatIthinkthereisroomintheworldandvalueforopeneducationalresourcesthatarehighlystructured,thatlooklikeacourse,andonesthatlooklikeaduck
becausetherearedifferentkindsofpeoplewithdifferentneeds.Iiftheydon'thavedifferentneedstheymighthavedifferentpreferences,andwhoarewetotellthem,youknow,youcan'thaveanythingofastructureputtogether,youhavetoassembleeverythingyourself?Orwhoarewetotellthemyoucan
onlyhavefullcourses,youcanneverhaveaccesstoindividualcomponents?
Ithinkthewholepointofthis,particularlyfromtheproductionside,isthatwewantpeopletosharewhateverthey'rewillingtoshareandcomfortablesharing,andifyouwanttoshareyourpictureofaduckthenthat'sawesome,ifyouwanttoshareyourcoursethat'sgreat.Andtheworldisabigenough
placethattherewillbepeoplewhofindvalueinwhateveryoushare.Partlybecauseofthedifferentneedstheymighthavebasedonpriorknowledgetheyhavecomingintothatexperience.Thatwasthewholepointofofthat.
Stephen:AndifIwantedtoestablishonething...Iwantedtoestablishmanythingsofcourse...
David:Onedaywon'tbeenough.We'llbebacktomorrow.
Stephen:ButonethingIwouldliketodrawoutofthatdiscussionisthatopeneducationalresourcesare
notnecessarilystructuredcoursesand…
David:Absolutely.
Stephen:itisnotnecessarytomountthesecoursesinordertoprovideOERs,inordertoprovideaccesstolearning.That'snottosaythatIwould,well,raisesomesortofinjunctionagainstuploadingcompletecourses,thatIwouldmarchtoOpenUniversityandgo“You,you'redoingitwrong.”WellImightbut,
butnot,notatthemoment.It'snotnecessaryinordertomaketheposition.Soifpeoplewanttoupload
fullcoursesortobemorepreciseinourlanguage,fullcoursepackages,becauseofcoursethecourseistheinteractionaswell,fine,goforit.
Butitisnotarequirementandinmywayofthinkingitwouldworkjustaswell,ifnotbetter,ifthat'snot
whatwearedoing,ifinfactwhatwewereuploadingwerepicturesofducks,tocaricaturethatabit.Butmoreaccurately,ifwewerewildlyandfreelyuploadingresourcesofwhatevertype.Andthenwemoveintothenextpartofprovidingaccesstolearningonline,whichis,provisionoftheresourcesor
mechanismforcommunitytoformaroundforthoseresources.
AndpartofmyconcernaboutthemodelofopeneducationalresourcesascoursepackagesisthatitleadsusawayfromthatpictureofcommunityformingaroundtheresourcebaseandtowardsthisideathatlearningproperlysocalledwithabigLissomethingthatcanbe,youknow,assembledand
packagedandmountedasafullcoursepackage.Andinourdiscussiontofollowwewillfind,Ithink,thatthereareadditionalproblemsthatarecausedbythat,notrelatedtolearning,butcausedwithrespecttotheobjectiveofprovidingaccesstoopeneducationalresources.Goodenoughsofar?
David:Yeah.
Stephen:Okay.
David:IactuallywanttotakeamomentandsaysomethingniceaboutMITOpenCourseWare.
Stephen:Allright.
David:Whichisn'tthevoguethingtodoIunderstand.
Thankyou(asifonqueuesomeonefromMIThandsmeabottleofwater).
Guest:Idon'tworkforOpenCourseWare.
David:YouknowIrealisethatsomeofthereasonthatpeoplecometoMITopencoursewareisbecause
oftheMITbrand.
Stephen:Right.
David:HoweverIthinkthestrokeofgeniusinMITOpenCourseWare,comparedtowhatweweredoingwithlearningobjectsinthedecadeleadinguptothat,isthatwhenyoufoundalearningobjectinits
contextfreerepositorywithitsnicelongmetadataandwhateverelse,youlookedatthatandyouhadahardtimeimaginingallthethingsyoumightdowithit,how,orsometimesimagininganythingyoumightdowithitwhenyousawit.
ThethingaboutMITopencoursewareisthatIthinkit'sactuallyasituationwhichyoucanbothhave
yourcakeandeatitaswell,becausehereareallthesethingsputtogetherinawaysothatyoudon'tfindtheminarepositorydevoidofanycontext,youactuallyfindthemembeddedinaparticularcontextthatisprobablyuseful.Butyoufindthemwithpermissionforyoutotakethembackoutofthatcontext
anddosomethingelsewiththem.
It'sjustlikefindingitintherepositoryinthatyoufinditandyoucantakeitanddosomethingwithit.Butitalsohasanexamplecontextthatgivesyousomeideasabouthowyoumightuseit.That,
structuringthosethingsasacoursebutgivingpeoplepermissiontothenimmediatelytakethemapartagainIthinkiswhatmadethatsomuchmoreusefulandintriguingthatjustlearningobjectrepositoriesoutthereintheworldbefore.SoIthinkthatpartwassomethingthattheydidwell,thatwasuseful.
Stephen:Well…
David:Idon'twanttosoundlikeI'malwayscompletelycriticalofMITOCW
Stephen:SeewhatI,IthinkofMIT,IthinkthatOpenCourseWarewasamarketingstrokeofgeniusand
hadverylittletodowithprovidingaccesstoopeneducationalresources.That'sjustahappysideeffect.Whattheywantedtodoandwhattheywereveryclearaboutdoing,astheywentthroughtheprocessoflaunchingOCW,wastosay“Thisisn'taneducation.Ifyouwantaneducationyouhavetopaytheten,
twenty,hundredthousanddollarsandcometoMIT.”
David:Wheredid(Anya?)go?Hundredeighty‐ninethousand,Ithink,iswhatAnya(Spurrier?)said.
Stephen:Ahundredandeighty‐nine?
David:Yeah,forthefouryears.
Stephen:Okay,soI'mactuallyunderestimating.Right,that'sastrokeofgenius.They'veconvincedpeoplewhobeforewerethinkingtheinternetkillerappwillbeeducation(rememberJohnChambers?)withthestrokeofapen,almost,theyundercutthatideaandsay“No.Educationiswhathappensat
MIT.”Andsotheyreinforcedthebrandofcourse,butreinforcedtheideathatyoucan'tgetaneducationonyourown,youhavetocometoMITandlearnfromwhoever'satMIT.
David:Wellisn'tthatreinforcingtheideathatthedialogueandthediscussionandthediscourseareallcriticallyimportantpartsofthe…
Stephen:Wellthoseareallcriticallyimportantpartsbutitdoesn'thavetohappenatMIT,right?Andsoit'sarebranding,butit'salsoaconceptualisationoflearning.Learningistheorganisationofmaterialsinthiswaysuchthatitcorrespondswiththisdialoguethattakesplacewhere?AtMIT.Idon'tknowwhere
wegowiththatbut…
David:Yeah.Nothat,wellIstartedwithakindofrandomdisconnectedthoughtandnowit'sendedupdisconnectedsoweshouldn'tbesurprised.
Stephen:Weshouldn'tbesurprised.
[Nexttopic]:Educationandlicensing.Forthose,forthatonepersonwhoisnotfamiliarwiththepointofdisputehere...
David:Ithinkthisisgoingtobethemostsurprisingoneofall.
Stephen:Becauseyou'regoingtoagreewithme?
David:We'llsee.
Stephen:We'llsee.
David:Maybeyou'regoingtoagreewithme.
Stephen:Ithinkthatwewillfindsomecommongroundbutwe'regoingtohavetokeeptherestofthisstuffinthebackgroundbecause,anyhow,becauseIthinkit'simportant.
Youknow,likeIthrowglibremarksaroundlikeframingandcommercialisingandsoonbutyouknow,I
tryinthefirstsegmenttorepresentthesystemoflearningonlypartiallyasasystemoflearningbutalsoasasystemofmarketing.Andwhenyousayacourseisthemostefficientwaytogettosay…
David:Imustobjectthatit'samoreefficientwaythandoingitcompletelyonyourown.
Stephen:I,well...I'llgowithmoreefficient,thekeywordhereisn't“most,”or“more,”thekeywordhereis“efficient,”right?Andyousayacourseisthemoreefficientwayofgettingtoaknowledgeof
geometry.Irepresentthatinmymindassomethingalongthelinesof,“they'vegotyoufooledintothinkingyouneedaquote‐unquote‘Knowledgeofgeometry’.”AsIremarkedrightattheendoftheprevioussegment,they'vegotyougoingveryquicklydownthewrongroadandIthinkthat'sreally
important.
David:Theroadisthetopicofstudyiswrong?“Idon'tneedtoknowgeometry,”isthatwhatyou're,Iwanttounderstandwhatyou'resaying.
Stephen:Wellmostlyyoumightnot,geometrymightbeabadexamplebecauseitissofoundationaltomanyotherthingsthatwedobut,butyouknow,ImeanIcanimagineentirelifetimeslivedwithouta
needtoaccesstheprinciplesofgeometry,alawyermaybe.Idon'tknow.Okay,maybethat'saglibremarkaboutlawyers,butyouknowwhatImean.Imean,it'sgoingtocomeupinalotofcontexts,butinothercontextsit'snot.
Butevenmorefundamentally,therepresentationofaknowledgeofgeometryas‘thatwhichisattainedafterhavingcompletedageometrycourse’tomeisamisrepresentationofwhatcouldpossiblybeconstruedasaknowledgeofgeometry.Andyouyourselfprovidedtheexampleofhavingtakenallof
thesecoursesinwhateveritwas,factoring…
David:Statistics.
Stephen:Yeah,andstillnotbeingabletodowhatitwasthatyoutookallthesecoursestolearnhowtodoandhowcouldthathavebeenefficient,youknow?Icouldimagineyoumaybenotbeingabletodoitnowaswellasyoucouldtenyearsago,buttobestymiedandfeelinglikeanoviceagainisalmost
incomprehensible.AndsoIlookatthatandI'dsay“Wellyoudidnotinfactactuallylearnthesethings.”
AndwhenIsaythat,Imeansomethingalongthelinesof“Yourbraindidnotgrowsufficientlysoastobesomethingthathaslearnedstatistics,”orthisparticularaspectofstatistics,thatyoumayhavehadsome,touseanoldstyleterminology,superficialimpressionsthatweresufficienttogetyouthrough
testsbuttheactualformationthatwouldhavetakenplacethroughanalternative,moreimmersive,moreengagedprocessthansimplytakingacoursewouldhavebeen...mysentenceisfallingapart,but
thatalternativeprocesswouldhavebeenlearning.Thiswasn'tlearning,andthereforewasn'tmore,muchlessmost,efficient.
David:SoIwilldisagreewithyouonthesegrounds.Likemyknowledgeofstatistics,atonepointIwasaveryfluentJapanesespeaker.Icouldpassonthephoneasanativeandmeetpeopleandtheywouldbe
surprisedthatIwasagaijin.NowIdon'tusethatskillhardlyatallanymore.It'sbeenfifteenyearsnowsinceIreallymadeheavyuseofitandnowIamnotafluentJapanesespeaker.Icansortofgetby.IcanorderinrestaurantsanddothebasicthingsbutIdon'tthinkthat'sbecauseIdidn'tactuallymaster
JapaneseorIlearneditinasuperficialway.Ithinkit'sbecausewhenyouletadecadeoradecadeandahalfpasswithoutusingamoderatelytechnicalskillthatyouloseitifyoudon'tpractiseitandstayuponit.Idon'tthinkit'sthatIdidn'tunderstandJapaneseandthatIhadn'treallymasteredJapanesefairly
deeply.IthinkIjustletitgetoldanditkindofrottedbecauseIneverdugitupandpractised.
Stephen:IthinkthatyouwouldfindthatyoureacquireyourJapaneseremarkablyquicklyifyouwereinaJapanesespeakingenvironment.Ithinkthat,youknow,Idoubt,orIcantestyourcontentionthatyoudon'tactuallyanylongerknowJapanese.
David:Thebasics,yes.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Themoretechnicalstuffno.Andthisisthesamestatisticsexample.Icanstilldobasicstatistics
butthiskindofstatisticsI'mtryingtodoisfairlytechnicalandfairlynuancedandtherearealotofassumptionsandIjusthaven'tusedthemintenyearsandI'veforgottenthem.Andreadinguponthemhasn'tbeenenoughtoputitallbacktogether.Youknow,Ineedapersontotalk',Ineedapersonto
helpmethroughthisprocess;justthematerialisn'tgettingitdoneforme.So,Idon'tthinkthatisacommentaryonthecourses,Ithinkit'sacommentaryonwhathappenstothedecayofaskillordecay
ofknowledgeorforgettingorwhateverovertimeifyoudon'tpractise,youloseaccesstothatexpertiseorknowledgeorverybasic.
Stephen:WellIcanstilldrawthesamepointoverbecausewespendtwelve,sixteenyearsofourlivestakingcoursesandthenwestoptakingcoursesatacertainpoint.Iwouldarguethatinthetenyears
thatfollow,wedon'tuseninetypercentofthestuffthatwasinthosecourses,right?Solet'stakeyourpointofviewasgiven,thataftertenyearsofnon‐useyounolongerknowthestuff,I'lljustacceptthefactasapointofargument.Sotenyearsafteryoureducationyounolongerknowninetypercentof
whatyoutookfromyoureducation.Howthen,Iask,isitthatyoureducationwasefficient?Imeanatbestyouhavetenpercentleftandyouonlyhavethattenpercentbecauseyouspentthetimebetweentheendofyoureducationandnowactuallyusingthattenpercent.Sotherestofit,youcan'thaveit
bothwaysright?
David:Actuallyitsoundslikeyou'rehavingitbothways.
Stephen:WellI…
David:Ithinkyou'remakingaveryutilitarianargumentaboutifyou'renot.“Ifwhatyou'relearningisn'tsomethingyou'regoingtouseinyoureverydaylife,you'regoingtouseitveryregularlyandvery
frequently,thenit'spointlessforyoutolearnit,”istheargumentIhearyousaying.WhydidIspendninetypercentofthetimelearningallthisotherstuffifIwasnevergoingtocomebacktoit?
Wheremyperspectivewouldbe,IcutaprettybroadpaththroughmygraduateprogrammesothatIcouldlearnaboutmanydifferenttypesofresearchthatIcoulddoandIgotworkableenoughinallof
themtothenmakeaninformeddecisionaboutwhichkindofresearchIwantedtodoandIwentdownthatpathandIleftacoupleofothermethodstotheside.I'dlearnedenoughaboutthemtobeabletomakeaninformeddecisionabout,youknow,whetherthatwasthekindofresearchIwantedornot,
decideditwasn'tandI,youknow,usedadifferentsetofmethodologies.
NowIwouldnottradehavinghadthatexperienceandmakinganinformedchoiceforsomeonesaying,youknow,Icantellthatyou'regoingtodothiskindofresearch,sowe'lljusttrainyouinonetechniqueandyoudon'tneedtoevertakeacourseintheothersbecauseyou'reneverreallygoingtousethem
anywaybecauseIwantedtomakethatchoiceformyself.Andyoumightsay“Howisthatefficient?”butIwanttomakethatchoiceformyself.
Stephen:Butthat'sadifferentefficiencyIthink.That's,youknow,we'renotonthecorecurriculumkindoftrackanymore,we'reontheDavidwantstoexplorekindoftrack,rightand…
David:Becausewhenyou'redoingaPhDyou'repastthenovicepartandmoreinsortofexpertsortof
rangeIwouldargue.
Stephen:Wellifyou'redoinggradeeightgeographyyou'repastthenovicepart.
David:Let'scomebackaroundtoOER.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Wecandisagreeabouttheseotherthingslater.
Stephen:Wellbutitmatters.Butyeah,we'llcomebacktothis.
Allright,thelicensingdebate.Intherealmofcontent,whichiswhatopeneducationalresourcesarepresentedas‐noticehowcarefulI'mphrasingthis‐openlicensingistypicallyaccomplishedusingeither
CreativeCommonsorthe,ortheGNUFreeDocumentationLicencelessfrequently,andthat'sit.Ican'treallythinkofothers‐well,exceptyouropenlicenceaswell.
David:Yeah,althoughthankfullythelastholdoutswhoareRedHatandsomeofthoseotherfolksaretalkingfinallyaboutmigratingoffofthattotheCreativeCommonslicencesoIthinkwecanfinally
almostlaythewholemattertorest.
Stephen:AndtoalargedegreeIthinkthat'swhatwe'reseeing,theCreativeCommonslicensingisthedefactostandardforopencontent.
David:Yeah,Ithinkthat'saccurate.
Stephen:WhichsoundsfineexceptofcourseCreativeCommonsisnotasingleentitybutratherasetof
licences,andthesetoflicencesiscreatedbyallowingthelicensor(thepersonwhoownstheresourceandisofferingthelicence)tomakeasetofchoices.
Andthechoicesare:attributionversesattributionnotrequired...
David:Actuallythat'snolongerachoice.That'srequiredoneverylicencenow.
Stephen:Ididn'tknowthat.Isn'tthatinteresting?
David:Becauseinversiononeofthelicencesitwasninety‐eightpercent,doessomebodyknow?[pause]Ninety‐eightpercentofeverybodywassayingyouhavetoattributemeanywaysofromversiontwo
forwardtheyjustsaid,youknow,“Forgetit,we'llputattributionineverylicence.”
Stephen:Showsyouhowlongit'sbeensinceI'veupdatedmylicences.Ididn'tknowthat.That'snewstome.Ohwell,youlearnsomethingeveryday.Thiswastoday'slesson.
ThewayCreativeCommonsoriginallybeganwasyoumadechoices,attributionornon‐attribution.ThesecondchoiceIthinkisstillextant,youcanchoosebetweencommercialandnon‐commercial,share‐
alikeandnotshare‐alikeandthen,morerecently,derivativeuseornon‐derivativeuse.
David:Wellsharealikeandderivsarekindofoppositeseachotherbecause…
Stephen:Yeah,againthat's,itdependsonyourperspectiveonthesethings,etcetera,etcetera.Butthemainpointispeoplecanoptfordifferentlicences.MyowncontentonmywebsiteiswhatIcallopencontent.ItislicensedunderCreativeCommons,attribution‐becauseIstilluseversiononebecauseI'm
astick‐in‐the‐mud‐sharealike,non‐commercial.Idon'tcareaboutthederivatives.
Buttheargumentpresentedisthatthisisnotreallyquote‐unquote,“free,”that“free”licensingwouldbe...I'llturnittoyou.
David:Sothisargumentisveryconfusingtomebecauseyouwouldthinkthatthefreestlicencewould
bethelicencewiththeleastrestrictionsontheperson,sosomethinginthepublicdomainwouldbefreerthansomethingthat'scopyrighted,offeredunderalicence,somethinglicensedCCzero(whichbasicallysays“IgiveawayalltherightsI'mpossiblyallowedtogiveawaybylaw,”)wouldbeafreer
licencethansomethingelse.
Butthereareanumberofpeopleintheworldwhowillarguewithyouthatattributionshare‐alikelicenceisactuallythefreestlicencebecausewhatwe,wedon'tcareaboutfreedomoftheuser,thedownstreamuser.Whatwecareaboutisthelong‐termfreedomofthecontent.SoifIsayattribution
sharealikethenthatguaranteesthatcontentandallofitsderivativeswillalwaysbeavailableforfree.
AndweshouldprivilegeongoingfreedomofcontentoverthefreedomofthedownstreamusertomakechoicesaboutnowthatI'vemadethisderivative,doIwanttouseadifferentlicence,doIwantto
commercialiseit,doIwanttodothis,doIwanttodothat?
Andthisisn'ttalkedaboutalotinthelicensingdebate(welltherearepeoplethatargueaboutwhichlicenceisthefreestlicencebutwedon'tgettothenuance).Dowecaremoreaboutthefreedomoftheonesandzerosinhereordowecaremoreaboutthefreedomofpeoplewhoaregoingtomakeuseof
thoseonesandzeros?IguessI'mgivingawaymyownbiasinthewayI'mframingmycomments.Buttherearealargegroupofpeoplewhofeelliketheshare‐alikelicenceisthefreestlicencebecauseitguaranteesthefreedomofthecontentforever.Thereareotherpeoplewhofeellikethefreestlicenceis
theonethatprovidesthemostfreedomtothedownstreamuserofthematerialtodowithitwhattheywill.
Stephen:Okay,thatwasadirectiontakenthatIwasn'texactlyanticipatingbutthat'scool.FirstIwanttobracketsomething.Ijustwanttojustmakeaparentheticalremarkabouttheformofanargumenthere.
Gobacktolearningobjectsandthereusedtobe,maybetherestillisinsomecircles,abigdebateaboutwhatkindofobjectcouldbealearningobjectandtheargumentwasapictureofaduckcouldn'tbealearningobjectbecausetherewasnolearninginthe…
David:Therewasnoinstructionhappening.
Stephen:Therewasnoinstruction.
David:Happening.
Stephen:Right?
David:Right.
Stephen:And,ofcourse,myposition,whichIarticulatedinthefirsthalf,wasthatwhatmakesita
learningobjectisifitisusedforlearning.That,theideaofhavinglearningintheobjectitselfisamisconstrualofwhatwemeanbylearning.Nowwecomeback,comebackhere…
David:Therearepeoplewhocalltheminstructionalobjects.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Bytheway.
Stephen:Yeah,andtheymaybe,theycanusewhateverdefinitionofinstructiontheywantandcall
theminstructionalobjectsbutagain,whatisthat?Well,isitanobjectthatinstructs,doesitperformsomekindoffunction,isitanobjectthatisusedtoinstruct,youknow,Imeanwerunintothesamesortofthing.Youknow,ifyoucallitinstruction…
David:...sorry.
Stephen:No,that'sfine,butthiscautionwithterminologyisimportanthere,youknow,Iknowsometimesitmakesmeseemabitpedantictogetintothat…
David:No,becauseourlaterargumentsarealwaysaboutthewords.
Stephen:Theyare.
David:Solet'sdoitatthebeginninginstead.
Stephen:Andthewords,roughlyspeaking,representwaysofseeingtheworldandsowhenI'marguing
aboutthemeaningsofwordsI'marguingaboutwaysofseeingtheworldandonewayofseeingtheworldistoimbueobjectswithhumancharacteristics.Thechairissitting,right?Thetreeisleaningoverandwantstofalldown.
David:Informationwantstobefree.
Stephen:Informationwantstobefree.Butofcourse,weknowthattheseareobjects.Theyarenot
capableofhavingthesepropertiesbecausetheyarejustnottherightkindofthings.Achairisnotthekindofthingthatsits,youknow,sittingissomethingthathumansdo.Ifyoudon'tlikethatexampletheninformationwantingtobefree.Towantistobeinaparticularcognitivestateandinformation,eventhe
mostcomplexinformationthatwecanimaginejustisn'tcapableofbeinginthatstate.Solearningobjects,thelearningcan'tbeintheobject.Thelearninghastobe,inmymind,intheperson.
David:Iwon'targuethatwithyou.
Stephen:Ah,butyoumighthaveatonepoint.Butnowwecometothepresentdebate,samestructureofargument,right?Whereisthefreedom?Okay?Informationwantstobefree.Wellinformationisn't
thesortofthingthatcanwanttobefree.Informationisn'teventhesortofthingthatcanbefreeinanysenseoffreedomthatwehaveinmind.Attheveryleasttheonlysensethatwecanmakeoutofthesentence“Informationisfree,”or“contentisfree,”isthatthepersonwhohascontent,thepersonwho
hascontentisnotchargingmoneyforitbecause,youknow,theideaof,youknow,Ijusthavethispictureofcontentroamingfreelyovertheveldt,youknow,like,sotherepresentationofcontentas
beingfreeis,inmymind,misconstrued.
Ithinkthatthedistinctionthatyoudrewisusefulbutincorrectlystated,andthecorrectstatementisthefreedomof,shallwesay,usersofthecontentorletus,tobemorepreciseagain,thefreedomofpeoplewhodonotyethaveaccesstothatcontent,versusthefreedomofpeoplewhocurrentlydohave
accesstothatcontent(andI'mseparatingbetweenproduceranduser,butthewords‘producer’and‘user’bringinawholemythologythatIdon'twanttobringin).
David:It'sfine.
Stephen:Okay.
David:Idothinkyou'remakingadifferentpointthough.I…
Stephen:ButIthinkI'mmakingamoreaccuratepoint.
David:Idisagree.IthinkthatthepeoplethatIknowinthisconversationreallythinkthatcontentismoreimportantthanpeopleandtheycareaboutthecontentretainingacertainsetoflicencesoverits
lifetimemorethantheycareaboutthepeoplebeingabletomakeawiderrangeofusesofthatcontent.Anditkindoftroublesanddisturbsmethatitreallyisclearthattheyprivilegethecontents'rightsoveritslifetimeifwecansaycontenthasalifetime,overaperson'srights.
Stephen:Ithinkit'sinterestingthatyoufindthatthelicenceisapropertyofthecontentratherthanthe
propertyofaperson.
David:Youdon'tlicencepeople.
Stephen:Peoplehavelicences.
David:Peopleapplylicencestocontent.Theydon'tapplythemtothemselves.
Stephen:Suretheydo.Ifthelicenceattachedtocontentdidnotapplytopeopleinanywaytheentirediscussionwouldbecompletelymoot.
David:Butitonlyappliestoapersonwhentheyareinteractingwiththecontent.Right,the,the…
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Idon'tputtheCreativeCommonsbadgeonmyself,Iputitonmywebpage,right?Iputalicenceonthecontentthattellsyouwhatrightsyouhavewithregardtothecontent,notwhatrightsyouhave
withregardtome.I'mnotlicensingme.Youdon'tlicenceaperson.Youlicenseapieceofcontent.
Stephen:Butaperson,thelicencethatIhavetouseapieceofcontentisnotgrantedtomebythecontent.
David:No,it'sgrantedtoyoubyaperson.
Stephen:Right.Alicenceisanagreement,howeveropenended,betweentwopeople.
David:Right.
Stephen:Withrespecttocontent…
David:Inthiscase.
Stephen:…butitisnotapropertyofthecontent.
David:It'sapropertyofapersoninstead?Orit'snotapropertyofanything?
Stephen:Ifitistobesaidtobeapropertyitisapropertyofaperson.
David:Idon'tfollowyou.
Stephen:Okay.
David:Iunderstandit'sapersonwhomakesthechoiceofwhichlicencewillbeappliedtothecontentbutattheendofthedaythelicenceisappliedtothecontent,Icansay,what'sthelicenceforyourblog?
Stephen:Icanrespondinoneoftwoways.IcansayitisCreativeCommons,non‐commercial,share
alike.
David:InwhichcaseIwouldsaythatit'sapropertyoftheblog,it,theproperty'slicence(…)
Stephen:ButwhatImeanwhenIsaythatisIallowpeopletousemycontentnon‐commercially.
David:Right.
Stephen:Thestatementofthelicenceismeaninglesswithouttheadditionofthephrase“Iallow.”Okay?
David:Agreed.
Stephen:Thatistheessentialcomponentofthelicences,meallowingyoutodowhatever.
David:Right,withthecontent.Notallowingyoutodowhatever.
Stephen:Right.
David:Todowhateverwiththecontent.
Stephen:Withthecontent.
David:Yourlicenceisastatementabouthowpeoplecanusecontent.
Stephen:It'sastatement.Thisismyproperty,thisismystuffandIletyoudowhatever,certainthingswithit.
David:I'mgivingyouthesepermissionswithregardtothestuff.
Stephen:Right,okay.So...
David:Butifthepermissionsarewithregardtothestuff,howcanthosepermissionsnotbeapropertyofthestuff?Idon'tknow,I'mnottryingtobeamoron,I'mjust…
Stephen:No,no,no,Iunderstand,Iunderstandexactlywhatyou'resaying,it'sdefinitelynotmoronic.It'strickyandagainanditdoes,itverymuchisyouknow,it'sperspectivekindofthing,youknow,lookingatitthiswaywecansay“Ohyeah,itmustbeaproperty.”Lookingatitthisway,it'slike“Well
it'snotaproperty,it'ssomethingthatpeoplearedoing.”
David:SoifIchoosetoletyoupurchaseaniPodforacertainprice,ImakeanagreementwithyouthatI'llgrantyoucertainrightsinthisiPodifyoumeetcertainconditions,paymeapriceinthiscase.Then
you'resayingthepriceisn'tapropertyoftheiPod,thepriceisapropertyofyouand,someagreementthatwemakewitheachother?
Stephen:Let…
David:I'mtryingtofindanotherexample.
Stephen:Strictlyspeaking,yes.Imean,becausetheverysameiPodundereversoslightlydifferent
conditionswouldn'thavethatpropertyatall.Youknow,attheverymostit'savery,verycontingentpropertyofaniPodandapropertythatcanexistonlywithrespecttotheinteractionthatwehavewithourselves.
David:Agreedthatitonlymakessenseinthecontextoftheinteractionoftwopeople,it'sjust…
Stephen:Soletmebeclearerbecausealotoftheconfusionismenotbeingsufficientlyclear.
David:Itmightbemejustbeingthickheaded.
Stephen:No,itisn't,becauseeveryoneelseisinthesamestateofconfusionregardingmyremarks.
That'sasign.It'sasignIseealot.
Becauseapartoftheproblemis,Iusedaverygeneraltermlike‘property’,right?Andofcourseanythingcanhaveproperties,right?Thiscuphasthepropertyofbeingwhite,right?Andsopropertyisoneofthosewords,it'sveryopenended,youcanuseit,thiscuphasthepropertyofbeingownedby
me,right?SowhatI'mtryingtogetatwithmyremarksisnotthatthecupispropertyfree.Thatwouldbesilly,right?Andit'snoteventhesensethatthecupcannothavepropertiesthatarespecifictomyowningofthecup.Thatistrue.
ButIhavepropertieswithrespecttothiscupthatthiscupcannothavewithrespecttome.Wecan
createinverseproperties,Iownthiscup,thiscupisownedbyme,right?ButIcan'tgivethiscupthesamepropertythatIhave.Iownthiscup.IcannotsaythiscupownsmebecauseI'mahuman,I'mthe
sortofthinginthisworldthatcanownthings.Wehavetwothingsthatcanownthings,well,threeifyoucountgovernments.Persons,corporationsandgovernments,right?Idon'tthinkthereisanythingelsethatcanownthings.Cupscan'townthings,right?
Wecometofree.I'mapersonthatcanbefree.Mycupcan'tbefree.Youknow,freedomisn'tthesort
ofpropertyweattachtoacup.
David:Freedomofaction,freedomofspeech…
Stephen:Yeah.
David:…freedomof…
Stephen:Theonlysenseinwhichthewordfreemakessenseiswithrespecttoprice,right?
David:Mmmhmm.
Stephen:Icouldsay,now,andallofasuddenourlogicinverts,right?Thiscuphasnoprice.Thiscupisfree,okay,thatmakessensebutnowIcan'tsayofmeIhavenoprice.I'mnotthesortofthing,atleast
underourcurrentlaws,thankgoodness,Iamnotthesortofthingthatcanhaveaprice.Okay?
Sothere'sadisconnect,afundamentaldisconnectbetweenusingthewordfreetorefertoboththepersonandthecontent.
Itmustmeandifferentthings.Sowecan'tsimplysaythefreedomoftheuserversusthefreedomofthecontent.They'redifferentconcepts.Theymustbedifferentconceptsbecausecontentisn'tthesortof
thingthatcanbefreeinthewayahumancanbefree.
David:SoshallIrestate?
Stephen:Goforit.
David:Soinsteadofsayingthattherearesomepeoplewhoprivilegethefreedomofthecontentlet'ssaytherearesomepeoplewhocaremoreabouttheongoinglicensingstatusofthecontentandallitsderivatives.
Stephen:Right.
David:Okay?Andthereareotherpeoplewhocaremoreaboutthefreedomoftheuser,let'ssaythere
aresomepeoplewhocaremoreabouttherightsauserhaswithregardstocontentoranyofitsderivatives.Whataretheyallowedtodowithit?
Stephen:Yousee,Istillwanttorepresentthisasaclashbetweentherightsofthepersonwhohasownershipofthecontent...
David:Ofwhichweassumethere'sone.
Stephen:Right.
David:Wellthere's…
Stephen:Forthesakeofargument.
David:(…)Okay.Andthenthere'severybodyelseintheworld.
Stephen:Sure.
David:Okay.
Stephen:Okay.So,thepeoplewhoarguethatthenon‐commercialclausepromotesmorefreedomarethepeoplewhoaremostconcernedwiththerightsofthepeoplewhocurrentlyhavethecontent,whocurrentlyownthecontent.
David:Arethere‐nowyou,nowyoureallyaregoingtothinkI'manidiot‐aretherepeoplewhoargue
thatlicencesthatuseNCaremorefreethanonesthatdon't?
Stephen:Yes,me.That'swhywe'rehavingadispute.
David:Okay.
Stephen:That's,that's…
David:Ireallyamdisconnected.
Stephen:Well,likeIsaid,youknow,itgoesbacktome.It'saquestionofperspective.
David:Okay,sorestatewhatyoujustsaid,peoplewhocare,peoplewhoargueinfavouroftheNClicence.
Stephen:PeoplewhoargueagainsttheNClicence.
David:OhagainsttheNClicence,okay.
Stephen:PeoplewhoargueagainsttheNClicencearepeoplewhocarepredominantlyaboutthe
freedomofthosepeoplewhocurrentlyhaveorownthecontent.
David:Okay.
Stephen:Thecontentprovidersifyouwill,quote‐unquote.
David:Andforthesakeofargumentlet'stalkabouttheauthorandeveryoneelseintheworld,justtokeepit,Irealiseit'smorenuancedthanthat,butjusttokeepit…
Stephen:It'saterminologicalconventionthatwe'reusing.
David:…tokeepitcleanlet'ssay‘peoplewhocaremoreabouttherightsoftheauthor.’
Stephen:Right,(…)it'sonlyaconventionbecauseasyouknow,mostofthepeoplewhohavetheselicencesarenotinfacttheactualauthor.Right?
David:Understood.
Stephen:Myperspectiveistheperspectiveofthepersonwhodoesnotyethaveaccesstothatcontent.
David:Everybodyintheworldexcepttheauthor.
Stephen:Everyone…
David:Inourcaricature
Stephen:Inourcaricature,everyoneelseintheworldexcepttheauthor.
David:Okay.
Stephen:Okay.Theydonothaveaccesstothecontent.
David:Untiltheauthordecidestolicenseittotheminsomeway.
Stephen:Right.
David:Right.
Stephen:Okay.Now,tothosepeople…
David:...whocareabouteveryoneelseintheworldmorethantheauthor...
Stephen:Right.Iftheperson,iftheauthorchargesmoneyforthecontent,thecontentisnotfree.Soalicencewhichallowstheauthortochargemoneyforthecontentislessfreethanalicencewhichdoes
notallowtheauthortochargemoneyforthecontent(youseewhythewordauthor'ssomisleadinghere)?
David:WellIthinkthereallyproblematicwordistheword“allow,”becausethere'snolicencethatdisallowstheauthorfromchargingmoneyforthecontent.
Stephen:Yeah,wellagainthat'stheuseoftheword“author,”hasthrownusoff,right?That'swhyIsay
“thepersonwhoiscurrentlyinpossessionofthecontent”.
David:Yeah,butthere'snolicencethatpreventsthepersonwhoistherightsholder,there'snolicencethatpreventsthatpersonfromchargingmoney.
Stephen:Agreed.Iunderstandthat.
David:ButIthink,Ithoughtwhatyoujustsaidwasthat...
Stephen:Buttherearelicencesthatpreventpeoplewhohavethecontentfromchargingmoneyfromit,forit.
David:Youmeaneverybodyelseintheworld,oncetheygetaccesstoit,chargingforit?
Stephen:Right.
David:Okay,yes.
Stephen:Sotheauthorisaverysingularcase,right?
David:Let'ssaythe‘rightsholder’insteadofthe‘author’.
Stephen:Let'ssaythe‘rightsholder’insteadofthe‘author’becauseit,youknow...
David:Itcouldbeacorporation.
Stephen:Yeah,becausethereisthismythicalpre‐licencestatethatcontentmayhave,youknow,andeventhatisnotagiven,right?Imeanlikewemadeadecisionasasociety,Idon'tknow,twenty,twenty‐five,thirtyyearsagotochangethedefaultfrom,youknow,contentthatcomesintotheworld
doesnothavealicencetocontentthatcomesintotheworlddoeshavealicencebydefault,allrightsreserved,right?Thatwasn'talwaysthecase.But,youknow,Icanimaginesocietiesinwhichyoucannot
sellthecontentunlessgrantedspecialpermission,say,soeventhat'snotoutsidetherealmofpossibility.Youknow,thecaricaturecommunistsocietiesthatsomepeoplerepresent,“Ohthere'snoproperty,youcan'tsellanything,”right?Youknow,wecanpicturethatsoit'snotunimaginable.Butthe
conventionofsocietytodayisthatapersonwhocreatescontent,createsprettymuchanything,cansellit.
David:Sowhatisthedisagreementbetweenyouandme?Iwouldliketoknow.
Stephen:Allright.Youarguethat‐well,I'veseenyouargueitandifIhavetoI'lllookitup‐everyoneshouldlicencetheircontentunder,notunderanon‐commercialclause.
David:Ihavearguedthatinthepast.
Stephen:Youhavearguedthat.Whydon'tyoustatethatargumentsothatit'saccuratelyrepresented?
David:Yeah,goodidea.AndIwillstate…
Stephen:CosI'vebeentryingtofishitandjustwant,let'sbringitout.
David:And,soI'mgoingtoaddsomenuancetoitaswellhopefully.
Stephen:Ilovenuance.
David:Solet'sgobackelevenyearsbecauseyoucanactuallyblameme(wellnotjustme,I'mgoingto
throwsomeoftheblameonEricRaymondhereaswell).
Stephen:Sure.
David:Butthereisahandfulofusyoucanblameforthenon‐commercialclause,andit'snotLarryandit'snot(JamieBoyle?)oranyofthoseotherpeopleatCreativeCommons.Thisallhasitsrootsinthe(OPAL?)okay?
Stephen:Andthenon‐commercialclausewouldhavehadtoofbeeninvented…
David:Atsomepoint.
Stephen:…iftheyhadn'tofdoneitbecauseyoulookatthesurveys,thebigthingthateveryone'sconcernedaboutisyouknow,peopletakingtheirstuffandsellingit.
David:Sothat'spartofthestoryIwanttotell.
Stephen:Right.
David:Soaswestarteddoing...sothere'sactuallyalicencebeforetheOPALinninety‐ninecalledtheopencontentlicencewhichwasjusttheGNUchangedaroundtotakeallthesoftwarespecificlanguage
outbutcontentlanguagein.AndIpromotedthatforalittlebitoftimeandtheneventuallybeingan
academicIthoughtIreallywantjournalsandtextbooksandotherthingslikethistousetheselicences.SoIguessIneedtotalktoapublisheratsomepointtofindoutwhattheirconcernswillbeifthe
journalsevertoadoptanopenlicencelikethisorifatextbookisevergoingto.Bestcasescenario,(something)everybodyintheworldcanunderstand.Who'sapublisherthatunderstandsopennessbetterthananybodyelse?I'mgoingtotalktoTimO'Reilly.
SoinconversationswithTimandAndy(Orham?)whowasa,andIthinkstillisaneditorthere,andthen
withEricRaymondandsomeotherpeople,therearefourorfiveofusinthisconversation.“Tim,ifyouweregoingtoopenlylicenceabook,whatwouldittakeforyoutobewillingtoputabookunderanopenlicence?”OrmaybeitwasAndywhoresponded.Anyway,thequestion'sdirectedatO'ReillyCorp.
Stephen:sure.
David:Youknow,whatwouldittake?Andtheresponsewas,“Well,there'salotof,itcostsalotof
moneytofindauthors,tosupporttheminwritingcontent,togetitcopyeditedwell,tolayitout,itcostsalotofmoneytodoallthisupfrontstuff.Andwhatwewouldn'tbewillingtodoiswewouldn'tbewillingtomakethatbiginvestmentonthefrontendandthenhaveBob'spublishingdowntheroadjust
photocopyourbookandsellittendollarscheaperthanusafterwecomeouttomarketbecausewemakealltheinvestmentandthenwe'renotabletorecoupanyofourcosts.”
Stephen:Right.
David:Sotheopenpublicationlicencehadaclausethatsaid,whichyoucouldchoosetoinvokeornot,youcannottakethismaterialandpublishitintraditionalprintformforaprofit.Youcantrytosellit
digitally,youcantryanddowhatever,butthiswasalicencetargetedspecificallyatpublishersandwhattheywantedprotectionfromwasprintundercuttingbythenextguydowntheroadbecausetheyfeltlikeiftheymadealltheinvestmentinthebooktheyshouldhavesomeabilitytotrytorecoupthatcost
andbedefendedfromotherpeopleundercuttingtheminsomeway.
Stephen:Wellletmejuststopthatbecausethat'saveryfunnysortofthingbecauseitallowsthemtoprintitoutanddistributeitforfreewhichisasmuchundercuttingasit'spossibletodobutassoonas
theychargeonecentforit,whichislessundercutting,thenthey'reviolatingthelicence.
David:Right,right.
Stephen:It'saninterestinghistoryofit,isn'tit?
David:InfactIthinkyoucouldprobably,youcouldprobablyprintitoutandchargeyourcostforprintingandbeincompliancewiththelicence,Ijustdon'tthinkyoucouldsellaprintedcopyforaprofit.
Stephen:Soit'sprotectionfromtheotherprofitmakingentities.
David:Right.
Stephen:So…
David:Notprotectionfrompeoplethatjustwanttosharewitheachotheror,that'snotwhothey'retryingtoprotectthemselvesfrom.
Stephen:WhichIthinkisreallysignificant.
David:Yeah,andsomethingthatgotlostinthetranslationfromtheopenpublicationlicencewhichhas
averyspecificaudienceandtargetofbookpublishers(journal?)publishers,whateverintoa,becausetheclausesintheOPALwereattribution,derivativesornotandnon‐commercialor,youknow,thisprintforprofitprintrestriction.
Stephen:Soyou'resayingLawrenceLessigdidn'tjustinventallofthisfromscratch?
David:AndneitherdidI,youknow,EricRaymondhelped,theguysatO'Reillyhelped,whatever,but
whenyoutakethatandyougeneraliseitupaleveltosay“Nowwe'regoingtomakeagenerallicence,definewhatyoucan'tdo,youcan'tdoanythingcommercial.”Youknow,thenitgetstobe,youdon'tunderstandwhy,it'sconfusing,whatever,IthinkthatclauseinOPALmadealotofsense.There'sa
reasonforit,there'sapopulationthatsaidtheywanteditandtomeaskindofthedriverbehindthelicenceitwaslook,ifthat'swhatpublisherswant,thatifthere'snot,noneoftheircontent'severgoingtobecomeopen,thenthat'saconcessionthatweneedtomaketothemsothatatleastpeoplecan
shareforfreeallthestuffthattheyhaveevenifotherpeoplecan'ttrytosellit.
Stephen:Right.
David:I'mnevergoingtobeapublisher,whatever,wasmythinkingatthetime,right?Sowiththatasbackground,there'sthenon‐commercialclauseintheCreativeCommonslicences[and]therearepeoplethathaveamoralissuewiththeclause.IwishIcouldgettothepointofhavingamoralissue
withtheclausebutthere'ssomanytechnicalproblemswiththeclausethatIcan'tevengetroundtohavingamoralissuewithitbecausenooneknowswhatitmeansandifwedon'tknowwhatitmeans,
howcanIhaveamoralissuewithit,exceptmaybeIhatethingsthatarevague,morally,youknow.
SotherearepeoplewhomakeanargumentthatsaysifthatlicenceisgoingtopreventmefromsellingataprofitthenwhenI'mtryingtostartmylittlemicrofranchisebusinessinJo'burgorsomeplace,sellingcopiesofCreativeCommonsmaterial,whatyou'retellingmeisit'sokayifIlosemoneydoingthat
oryou'retellingmeit'sokayifIjustbreakevendoingthatbutwhatyou'retellingmeisI'mnotallowedtomakealivingformyselfbyhelpingotherpeoplegetaccesstothismaterial.
Stephen:Funnywayofputtingthat.
David:Butthat'stheargument,right?Iwanttoprintthisstuffout,Iwanttodothisserviceforpeople,I,ifI'mgoingtospendallmytimedoingthatandI'mnotgoingtobegrowingmygardenordoing
whateverelse,I'dliketoatleastbeabletoeatoffofthatactivity,andyournon‐commercialclauseismorallyreprehensiblebecauseitmeansthatIcan'tmakealivingtryingtohelppeoplegetaccesstothismaterial.That'sthemoralityargumentaroundnon‐commercial.
Stephen:Okay,canwedealwiththatquicklyfirst,dispensewith?
David:You'rewelcometohaveago,sure.
Stephen:Well,becauseIhearthatonealotandyouknowitmakesmesoundlikethebigmeanguywho'stryingtopreventpeoplefrommakingagooftheirlivesinSouthAfricaandlike,youknow,which
isn'tmeatall.ButimaginealawthatsaidIcan'tgointoyourappleorchardandtakeyourapplesandgoontothestreetandsellthem,alright?
David:Don'twehavethatlaw?
Stephen:Wedo,butthatlawpreventsmefrommakingabusinessofsellingyourapplesforprofit.Nowthere'sreasonswhywehavethatlaw,right?Like,foronething,they'reyourapples.
David:Right.
Stephen:And,youknow,oneofthefundamentalprinciplesofpropertylawisthat,youknow,property
iscontinuousuntilvoluntarilydischarged,mostly.Inotherwords,youknow,youcan'tstealotherpeople'sproperty.Sothat'sfind,we'reallprettycomfortablewiththatlaweventhoughitmeanssomebodycan'tmakealivingsellingyourapples,right?Andnobodysays,Ithink,thatwearelessfree
becausesomeguycan'tcomeandtakeyourapplesandsellthem.Infactwe'dsaytheopposite,wearemorefreebecausewecanhavesecurityinourownpersonandproperty,right?
Sothemoralargumentdoesn'tcarryweighthereinthatthere'sanynumberofthingsyoucan'tdoinordertomakealiving.Youknow,wedon'twantpeopletopractisepiracyoffthecoastofSomalia,
right?Althoughfromtheperspectiveofthepirates,we'rejustimpingingontheireffortstomakealiving.SoshouldthepeopleinJohannesburghavethecapacitytomakealivingforthemselves?Sure.Absolutely.ThatmoralprincipleIgrant.Shouldthatcapacityextendtothesellingofthesethings?No,
thatdoesn'tfollow.Sothemoralityonlycomesintoplayinsofarasitaddressestheneedofapersontomaketheirownliving,butitdoesn'textendtotheneedofapersontomaketheirownlivinginthisway.
David:Iwillmakeanoteandthenleaveittotheside.
Stephen:Okay.
David:Thatyourargumentsaroundrealpropertymakesenseinthecaseofrealpropertybutinthecase
of,Iwon'tevensaytheotherphrase,inthecaseofdigitalmaterialswhichIcanmakeaperfectcopyofatnolosstoyou,Ithinkthatargumentbecomesproblematic.
Stephen:Well…
David:Idon'tknowthatthat'swhatwewanttospendourtimearguingaboutthough.
Stephen:No.
David:ButIdowanttobringitup.AndIthinktheotherpieceofthisis,yes,therearelawsbydefaultthatsayIcan'twalkinanddowhateverbuthere'samovementofpeoplewhoclaimtobeopenand
claimtowanttoshareandthey'recreatingthesespeciallicencesinordertodothisthingandwellnow
you'reabighypocritebecauseyou'reassociatingyourselfwiththismovementthat'sallaboutopennessandloveandwhateverandnowyou'reputtingthisparticularrestrictiononme.Mostproblematic
becauseyou'reinviolationofoneofthetenrulesofBruce(Perren's?)definitionofopensource,whichisnon‐discriminationagainstgroupsofpersonsorfieldsofendeavouroroneofthesethings,andbecausethoseareasetoftencommandmentsthatweholdinviolate,ifyoudiscriminateagainsta
groupofpeoplewhowanttomakealivingwithaparticularclauseinyourlicence,youhavebroken,youknow,you'renotinconformancewiththeopensourcedefinitionwhichweholdsacredandholyandthoseprinciplesshouldbeinviolateandyou'reviolatingthemsoyou'reanimmoralperson.That'sthe
kindofthinking.
Stephen:Iknow,Iunderstandthethinking.Idon'tthinkthat,wellit'scertainlynotalineofreasoningIwouldacceptforavarietyofreasonandthewayyou'representingitIdon'tthinkyouacceptiteither.
David:Yeah,soletmecomebacktoaccuratelystatingmypointofview.SoI'vearguedagainstthenon‐commercialclauseinthepast.Idon'tknow,Idon'tthink,althoughIwouldbehappytobeproven
wrong,Idon'tthinkI'veeverarguedagainstitonmoralgrounds.IthinkI'vealwaysarguedagainstitontechnicalgrounds.Ifwedon'tknowwhatitmeans…
Stephen:Well,youhaveadvancedtheargumentontechnicalgrounds,noquestionaboutthat.
David:Yeah,ifwedon'tknowwhatitmeans,whywouldweadoptthisclause?IfIdon'tknowifyoucancomebackandsuemeornotorifsomeoneelsecanorwhateveryouknow,iftheauthorofthelicence
can'ttellmewhatthisclausemeans,whichtheycan't,thenwhywillIfeelcomfortabletryingtoprotectmyinformationwiththisinstrumentthatevenitscreatordoesn'tknowhowitfunctions?Allweknowisthatthere'ssomecommonsenseagreeduponnotionofwhatcommercialmeansthatweshouldall
assumeeveryoneelseisgoingtohavethesamedefinition,whichwedoknowtheydon't,basedonthestuffthat'scomingoutofthesurveythatCreativeCommonsisdoing(“whatdoesnon‐commercialmean
toyou”),andit'snotoneunifiedvoicespeakingclearlyaboutwhatcommercialisationmeans.SoI'mjustgoingtotrustthatwehavethesamedefinitionofcommercialandnon‐commercialandwhenIlicenseittoyouthisway,you'regoingtodobasicallywhatIassumedyouwereandifyoudon't,whatrecoursedo
Ihaveifeventhepeoplethatcreatedtheinstrumentcan'ttellmewhatrestrictionI'veactuallyplacedonmymaterialotherthansomeveryhighlevelcommonsenseykindof…?
Stephen:Well,ifyouputthatconstraint,let'saddressthisatacertainmeta‐levelfirst.
David:Allright.
Stephen:Becauseifyouputthatconstraintonthingsthennobodycandoanything.OrmaybeIshouldusethat,usesomething.Suppose,say,Igiveyouthiscamera,alright?Solet'spretend,andI'mnot
actuallydoingit.
David:No,it'sonvideo,you'regivingmethecamera.
Stephen:Okay,so…
David:It'sminenow.
Stephen:…let'spretend,okay,thatIsay“Iamgivingyouthiscamera.”Now,doIknowwhatthatmeans?Doyouknowwhatthatmeans?
David:Itmeansit'smine.Mytwoyearold,sorry,Ihaveyoungkids.
Stephen:Well,yeah,but…
David:It'smine!
Stephen:Butthat'sfine,right?
David:Uhhuh.
Stephen:Nowassoonaswe'vepushedthiswecangetintosomenuance.Forexample,unknowntome,
Ihavegivenyouthecamerawiththeflashmemorystillinitandwithpicturesontheflashmemory.HaveIgivenyouthosepictures?
David:Givenmeanswhat?
Stephen:Exactly.
David:You'vetransferredthemtomephysically.
Stephen:Yeah,but,but…
David:Butyouholdthecopyrightonthemastheirauthor.
Stephen:SomaybeIhaven'tgiventhemtoyou.
David:Right.
Stephen:Soassoonas,yousee,youcan'tjustsay,“Wellbecausewedon'tknowwhatitmeanswecan'tdoit.”Right?Thatargumentdoesn'thold.
David:Iwoulddisagreeinthecontextoflicensing.Imeanthat's…
Stephen:Whatismorebasictolicensingthanthetransferofacamerafrompersontoanother?
David:…fifteen,twenty,fortypageslongbecausetheycovereverysynonym,everypossibility,everywhateversothatnorightthinkingpersoncanstandinfrontofwhoever,standinfrontofyoulikethisandsay“Oh,whenitsaidpromises,covenants,contracts,agreements,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,
blah,blah,blah,whatever,Ididn'trealiseitmeantthisthingthatIsaidIwoulddo.”
Stephen:Okay,youknowandIknowthatwhentheysay“Ididn'trealise,”they'relying,right?AndyouknowandIknowthatthelicences,thethirty,fortypagesaremechanismstoallowforthiskindoflyingtobecomeinstitutionalised.BecauseyouknowandIknowIgiveyouthecamera,that'saperfectly
straightforwardtransactionthatdoesnotinfactneedfortypages.AndyouknowandIknowthatadefinitionofnon‐commercial,verysimplelikeyoucan'tmakemoneyoffofitissomethingthatyouandI
canbothunderstandinlessthanaparagraphofdefinition.
David:Idisagree.So…
Stephen:Butnotreasonably.
David:No,IbelieveIreasonablydo.Soforexample,Itake…
Stephen:I'mtakingmycameraback.See,Ididn'treallygiveittoyou.
David:Youdidn'treallygiveittome.
Stephen:Sure,so…
David:Soforexampleyou,ifItookyourcontentfromyourwebsite,reproduceditonmyownwebsite,ranGoogleadsonthatwebsite…
Stephen:Thenyou'remakingmoneyoffit.
David:ButnotifIonlyrunads'tilI'vecoveredmyhostingcostsforthemonthbecausethecostformetoprovidethatcontenttotheworldismyhostingcostssoIdon'tprofituntilI'vecoveredmycost.So
I'monlygoingtoselladsuntilI'vemadethesevenninety‐fiveamonththatIneedtopayformyhostingandnowIhaven'tprofitedfromyourcontent,allI'vedoneiscovermycosttoprovideittootherpeople.HaveIuseditcommerciallynowornot?
Stephen:Sowhenyoumakeyoursevenninety‐fiveyou'regoingtotaketheadsoffor…
David:Yeah.
Stephen:...you'regoingtotellGoogle“stoppayingmenow”?
David:No,I'mjustgoingto…
Stephen:Doesanybodyeveractuallydothat?
David:WhatI'msayingis…
Stephen:Becausewe,youknowaswellasIdothat…
David:No,no,no.
Stephen:…theadsdon'tjustcoverthehostingcost.
David:Alotoftimestheydon'tevencoverthehostingcostbutthisis…
Stephen:ThatisGoogle,yeah.
David:Thisisoneofthemainpointsofargumentinthecommunity.AmI,ifIcovermycosts,amImakingacommercialuseornot?
Stephen:Right.
David:Andit,there'sverylargegroupsoneithersidewhosay“Yes,ifyou,ifapennycomestoyouasa
resultofyouruseofthatcontentyou'vemadeacommercialuse.”Andthere'sanothergroupofpeoplethatsays“Look,ifItakeitdowntoKinko’sandtheychargemethirtydollarstoprintitalloutandIpaythemjusttocoverthecostforprintingorwhatever,that'snotacommercialusebecausetheyhaven't
profited.”Andthereare,there'saveryreasonable,rightthinkingdisagreementaboutthis.IfIcovermycost,isthatacommercialuseornot?IfIprintitoutforyouandcharge,orifIburnRedHattoadvd,wellRedHat'ssoftware.Anyway,iscoveringmycostacommercialuseornot?Theworld'ssortof
evenlysplitonthatquestionsowhenyoulicenceyourstuffwithNClicenceyouhopethepeoplethatuseitaretheoneswhoagreewithyourviewoftheworldandabouthalfofthemmaybedon't.
Stephen:No.But,no,it'snotthatsimple.See,your,howdoIwanttopresentthis?Thesimplefactthatsomepeoplethinkcoveringyourcostsmakesitacommercialactivitydoesn'tentailthatinfactcovering
yourcostsmakesitacommercialactivity.SoIdon'tneedtodefendtheperspectivethatcertainpeoplehavesimplybecausetheyhaveit.Ithinkthatshouldbeclear.
David:ButyouunderstandthatwhentheyseetheNCclauseonyourblog,that'swhatthey'regoingtounderstandittomeanandthey'regoingtogocovertheircosts,they'regoingtogogeneraterevenue
fromyourcontentandyou'reokaywiththat?
Stephen:Generate,well,but…
David:Notprofit,revenue.
Stephen:Butthethingis,okay,let'sbackup,let'sbackup,okay?
David:Andtheworstpartofmystory'syettocomeso…
Stephen:No,no,no,I'mfinebecause,themistakethat'sbeingmadewiththissortofcharacterisationisthepresumptionthatwecandistinguishbetweencommercialandnon‐commercialusingsomeessential
featureoftheactivity,right?It'scommercialbecauseyoudidthis.It'snon‐commercialbecauseyoudidnotdothis,right?So,andinthiscasewehavethecasewhereapersonissaying“It'scommercialbecausetheychargedmoney,”asopposedto“It'scommercialbecausetheymademoney.”Okay?Buta
commonsenseunderstandingofcommercialisn'tonebasedonthisonefactor.
David:No,therearemanyotherfactorstheydisagreeonaswell.
Stephen:Yeah,but,buttheconcept“commercial”isacombinationofalargenumberofpractices,oneofwhichis‘makingmoney’,anotherofwhichis,say,‘derivingalivelihoodfrom’,anotherofwhichis‘settingyourselfupasacertainkindofentity’,aka,acompanyoracorporation.DoyouseewhatI
mean?AndIarguethatareasonablepersonwho'snotcaughtuponthisonefactordefinitionofcommercialcanlookatanactivityandsaywhetherornotit'scommercial.
David:Soit'sapornographytest?It's“IknowitwhenIseeitbutit'simpossibletodefineaheadof
time?”
Stephen:Exactly.
David:Isthatwhatyou'resaying?
Stephen:Anditisamistaketoattempttodefineitaheadoftime,andevenmoresignificantlytheattempttodefineitinvariablyleadstoloopholesthatareusedbypeopleattemptingtosubverttheintentofthedefinition.Youknow,“It'snotreallycommercialbecauseeventhoughI'vesetupa
companyandeventhoughI'mchargingmoney,IhadsuchabadyearIdidn'tmakeadimesoit'snotcommercial.”It'sjust,youknow,“Ourcompanylostfiftymilliondollarslastyearsoit'snotcommercial.”Right?Wellweknowwhatcommercialiswhenwelookatit.Andwehaveagoodcommonsense
understandingofthedistinctionbetweenaprivatedomainandevenaphilanthropicdomainandacommercialdomain.Andthesearesufficientlywellunderstoodthatwedon'tneedtoappealtoacertainnecessaryorsufficientconditiontoestablishthatitisso.
David:Sotwocomments,thebrieferonefirst.Itseemslikeifyoucan'tdefineasetofpermissionsthen
it'soddtotrytoputtheminadocumentwhichspecifiesthepermissionsthatyou'regrantingtoapersonifyoucan'tdefinewhatthepermissionsare.
Stephen:Thepermissionisyoucan'tusethiscommercially.Your,ifImaysay,errorissayingthatmyconditionisreductivetoanadditionalsetofconditions.Thereisnoreductiontoanothersetof
conditions.Right?Thereisonlyusingitcommerciallyornotusingitcommercially.Andthenyouusethetestofreasonableness,thewaywedoinlaw,todecide,right?
David:So,so…
Stephen:Nobodywouldeversaytheftconsistsofthisandthisandthisandthisaction.Firsthehasto
breakintothestore,thenhehastoactuallypickupthe,youknow,youdon'tdothat.Youlookatthetotalityofhisactionsandyouask,wasthattheft?
David:SotakeCreativeCommonsitself,theorganisation.TakeMITOpenCourseWare,bothofwhomwewouldthinkofasbeingreasonableentities,intelligentpeople,theyevenshareacommonboard
member,etcetera.SoyoucangototheMITopencoursewarewebpage‐andI'llgetitwrongifIdon'tsopermitmejustafewseconds‐YougototheMITopencoursewarewebpageandreadontheirtermsofusewhatnon‐commercialmeansandtheysaynon‐commercial,thecommercialversusnon‐
commercialjudgementhasnothingtodowiththeuserandthenatureoftheuserwhetherit'sanindividualorforprofitornon‐profitorwhatever,it'sallaboutthenatureoftheuse.Okay,soitiscompletelypossibleforIBMtouseMITOpenCourseWarelicensedstuffforinternaltraining,for,well
internaltrainingcoversalotofstuff,orientation,fortrainingtheirownpeoplebecausethey'renotouttheretryingtoprofitfromit.They're,sothey'renotusingitcommercially.
Stephen:Sure.
David:AtCreativeCommons,it'sdefinedbythenatureoftheuse,notthenatureoftheusers.
Stephen:That'sfine.
David:Now,onCreativeCommonswebsiteforaperiodoftime,althoughuntil,onceIpointeditoutitwasquicklytakendown,therewasaroughdefinition,here'swhatwethinknon‐commercialusemeans.
Itsaidithasnothingtodowiththenatureoftheuse,it'sabouttheuser.Soareyouaforprofitcorporation?Yes?There'snopossiblewayyoucanmakeanon‐commercialuse.Areyouaneducationalinstitution,alibrary,whatever,andtherewasthisflowchart.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Andherearetwovery,Ithink,veryreasonablegroupsofpeoplewhohavethemost
fundamental,youcouldn'thaveadisagreementmorecontradictoryaboutthedefinitionofnon‐commercialusethantheydid.Onesaid“It'snotaboutX,it'saboutY,”andtheothersaid“It'snotaboutY,it'saboutX.”Andthesearetwo,Ithink,veryreasonable,intelligentgroups.SoIdon'tthinkwecan
appealtoacommonsenseunderstandingbecauseevenintelligent,reasonablegroupsthatsharepeopleontheboardcometotheexactoppositeconclusionaboutwhatnon‐commercialmeans.
Stephen:Wellifyou'regoingtostartreducingnon‐commercialtothesecomponentparts,you'regoingtogetthatkindofdisagreement,right?Lookatthewayyousetitup.Right,Ijustfinishedsayingthere
arenosubpartstonon‐commercial,yousaid“Welllookatthisexamplewheretherearesubparts,therewasaproblem.”Wellyeah.Right?Becausesomebodymade…
David:Reasonablepeoplearethinkinginsubparts.Creativecommonsisthinkingaboutthelicencethattheyofferinsubparts.MITopencoursewareisthinkingaboutthelicencetheyadoptedinsubparts.
Stephen:Anditis…
David:Whetherwewantthemtoornot,eventhepeoplethatcreatedthelicencethinkaboutitinthoseways.
Stephen:Reasonablepeoplecanthinkaboutthingsinsubpartsbutyoucan'ttakethatreasoningtobecomedefinitiveoftheconceptthatyou'reattemptingtoworkwith,right?Isaytoyou,“Youruseof
mystuffwascommercial.”Yousay,“Wellwhatdoyoumeanitwascommercial?”Isay,“Welllook,youdidthis,youdidthis,youdidthis.”Right?Thatdoesn'tsuddenlyconstituteadefinitionofcommercial.WhatI'mdoingisdrawingouttheevidencewhichtomesuggeststhatitwascommercial.
So,youknow,everythingwasfine,youknow,ifyoustartsaying,“welllookatthenatureofthe
institution,lookatthenatureoftheuse,right?”Andpeoplewouldwritethisdown,awellmeaningpersonwrote“non‐commercialcompany”ontheCreativeCommonswebsite.Finesolongashedoesthat,butassoonashesay“Ohthat'swhatwemeanthat'sdefinitiveofcommercial,”that'swherethe
problemcomesin.Andthat'swheretheproblem'salwaysgoingtocomeinwhenyoutrytodefinetheseintosubsetsofnecessaryandsufficientconditions,becausethesearecomplexconcepts.
David:Soyou're,you,atadeeplevel,you'reactuallyhappyandthinkit'sapreferredstatetohavethe
definitionbe,tohavenon‐commercialbeundefined?
Stephen:RightandinfactIwouldgofurther.Themoreyoudefineit,themoreyouhavecreatedroomforabuseofit.Thecrooksdependonyoudefiningitbecauseit'sthecrooksthatarelookingfortheseloopholes,right?
David:Butifyoudon'tdefineityoudon'thaveanyguaranteethatwhenyougotocourtthatanything
willhappen.Youcanpresentanargumentthatyouthinkisreasonabletoyoubutitalldependsonwho'ssettingupthereandyoumight…
Stephen:Wellifyoudon'thaveamilliondollarlawyeryoudon'thaveanyguaranteebutthatdoesn'tmeanhavingamilliondollarlawyerispartofthedefinitionofnon‐commercial.Youknow,Imean,there
arenoguaranteeswhenwegotocourt,period.
David:ButIthoughtlicencesweresupposedtobeaboutgivingmeconfidenceandgivingmeguaranteesthatIdohaverightstodocertainthings.
Stephen:Wellthat'spartofthecon.Toputitbluntly,that'spartofthecon,right?It'spartofthis,youknow,it'spartofthelegalisticcon,it'spartofthecommercialcon,right?YouknowandIknowina
commonsensesortofway,whensomebody'stakingyourstuffandusingitcommercially.Weknow,weseeit,wecanrecogniseit.
David:WellwhenIthinkthey'reusingitcommerciallybuttheymayhaveaverydifferentdefinition.
Stephen:Andiftheyare,andthenifthereis,well,theymayhaveaverydifferentdefinition.
David:Andtheymayberightthink',ImightbeCreativeCommons,theymightbeMITOCW,wemight
betworightthinkingpeoplewithverydifferentdefinitionsandIcandisapproveandtheycansay“No,thewaywereadit,thisis...”
Stephen:ButIwouldsuggestthatthat'sverymuchtheminorityofthecasesandIthinkthatthosearethesortsofcaseswherethereisagenuinedisagreementthenyousitdownaroundthetableorifthe
stakesarehighenoughinaformalenvironmentlikeacourtroomandyougetabunchofotherreasonablepeople,youtalkaboutit,youthinkaboutitandthen…
David:Andthenyougetprecedentandnow...
Stephen:Andyou'vecreatedcommonlawbecauseprecedentguidesbutitdoesnotdefine.
David:Soletmecomeroundtothemostdistastefulpartofmystory...
Stephen:Ohgoody.
David:…ofallwhichisthataftermakingalltheargumentsI'vejustmadearoundnon‐commercial,FlatWorldKnowledge13,thetextbookcompanythatIworkwith,usesthenon‐commercialclauseontheir
textbooks.
Stephen:Becauseyou’reapublisher…
David:AfterallthoseargumentsIjustmadeabouthowundefinedandwhateverelseitis,becausethat'sthebestmechanismavailabletous,themostwidelyrecognised,themostwhatever,tosharethisinthewaywe'retryingtosharethismaterialwiththeworld.There'snotabetterone.There'snotabetterone
that'saswellrecognisedbecausetome(andthisisprobablyaplacewherewealsohavesomeunspokendisagreement)thepointofthelicenceistocommunicateveryquicklytomeinabasicallyfrictionlesskindofwaywherethere'snoadditionalexchangeneeded,youhaveourpermissiontodo
thesethings.Youdon'tneedtoaskus,youdon'tneedtotalktous,we'vegivenyouallthesepermissionsrighthere.Runawayanddoallthesethingsandthepointof,insteadoftherebeingthirtyopenlicenceswithCreativeCommonsandGFDL?andOPALandwhateverelse,thattheusefulthing
abouttheworldstandardisingonadefactosetliketheCreativeCommonsonesisthatnowinsteadofhavingtounderstandthedifferencebetweentheBSDandtheApacheandGPLandwhatever,youknow,whenyouseeit,it'stheonethateverybodykindofuses,youknowwhatitmeans,youknowwhatrights
youhaveandyoucangoawayandbeconfidentinexercisingthoserights.
SoifFlatWorldhadcreatedsomeboutique,one‐offspeciallicenceforourtextbooks,evenifthelanguagehadalmostmirroredexactlyby(CreativeCommons)NC‐SA,peoplewouldlookatitandsay“SowhatamIallowedto...?”Imean,ifthey'dusedCreativeCommons,IwouldhaveknownwhatIwas
allowedtodobutnowyouknow,youusethisotherthing.
SoIguessItoldthatstoryatthebeginningaboutO'Reillytocomebackround,youknow,toFlatWorld.Textbookdevelopmentcostsalotofmoneyandtheywanttomakethosetextbooksandtheywantto
share,they'rewillingtosharethemwiththeworldforfreebuttheydon'twanttogetundercutinthecommercialmarketsotheyusethisnon‐commercialclausebecauseasbadasitis,it'sthebestthingwehaveavailable.
Stephen:Soifyouweresomebody,say,livinginJohannesburg,tryingtogetyourlittlemicropublishing
thingofftheground,reallythethingtodoistousethenon‐commerciallicence.
David:Ifthey'retryingtogetifofftheground,ifthey'retryingtosellcopiesofthings?
Stephen:Wellyeah.Becausethat'showtheyprotecttheirmarket.Because,asyousay,isn'tthatwhyO'Reillywanteditinthefirstplace?
David:Wait,youmeanifthatperson'sproducingtheirowntextbooksthentheyshould,theyshouldputthenon‐commercialclauseonit?
13http://www.flatworldknowledge.com/
Stephen:Well,ifthatpersonisattemptingtostartabusinesssothattheycansupportthemselves.I'mnottalkingaboutwhattheydo.
David:ButwhattheydoisimportantbecauseNConlyappliesifwhattheydoisthey'reproducing
content.
Stephen:Okay,so,nevermind.Let's…
David:Okay.
Paul:Wejusthaveacoupleofminutesbeforelunch,IthinkifIcanhearJack,aninterestingquestionseemstobearoundwhetherthenon‐commercialisallowingfinancialtransactionsofanykind.AndIknowfrommyownsituationthatanissuehascomeuparound,doeschargingtuitionforusinganOER
resourceconstitutecommercialuse?Eveninapubliclysubsidisedinstitutionwhereit'snotthatthey'reforprofitinstitutionandIjustwonderifyouwouldperhapswrapupthissegmentaroundsomeofthat.
Stephen:Yeah.Theshortanswerformeisyes.
Paul:Itconstitutescommercialuse?
Stephen:Yeah,nowthat'stheshortanswer.It'sinterestingbecause,youknow,education,whenweweretalkingaboutthedefinitionofcommercial,IrememberwhenDavid,youwantedtosetupan
educationalconditionunderCreativeCommons,rememberthat?
David:Waybackintheday,yeah.
Stephen:Yeah,andofcoursethequestionthereiswhatconstituteseducationaluseandthedefaultunderUSlawwassomethingalongthelinesofusebyaneducationalinstitution…
David:Orapersonaffiliatedwithone.
Stephen:Right,whichmeantthat,okay,it'sfreeforthepeoplewhopaidtuitionbutthepeoplewhodidn'tpaytuition,thereforewerenotpartofaneducationalinstitutioncouldn'tuseit.Whichislikea
nightmarescenario.It'sinstitutionalisingtheexistenceoftheseeducationalinstitutionsthatchargetuition.
David:Whichiswhyweabandonedthatoncewegottotheproblem.
Stephen:Originally,itwouldhavebeenniceif,nevermind.BecauseyouknowIneverdidgettheemail
saying“Youwereright,”butthat's…
David:I'msureyouwererightatsomepoint,Iwilladmit.
Stephen:Butwhenwelookateducationalinstitutions,andofcoursethesituationisverydifferentinCanadathanintheUS,nonetheless,torepresenttheseinthenormalcourseoftheirbusinessasnon‐commercialentitieswouldbeamisrepresentation.Iknowtheyare,quoteunquote,“nonprofit,”butI
thinkveryclearlytheyareoperatinginacommercialfashionandtheevidencethatthey'reoperatingin
acommercialfashionistheleveloftuitionthattheychargethepeoplewhodaretodreamofaccessingtheselearningresources.
Whatwouldconstituteanon‐commercialusebythesesameinstitutionswouldbeifwhenthey
mountedthesecontentsontheirwebsitetheydidnotputinaloginwithyouruniversityIDandpasswordtoaccessthem.Soauniversitycanusematerialsnon‐commerciallybyusingitinsuchawaythatitdoesnotrestrictaccessonlytothosepeoplewhohavepaidtuition.Assoonasyoumakepaying
tuitiontheconditionforaccessingthisstuff,nowyou'reusingitcommercially.You'reusingaccesstothisstuffasthewayyoumakemoney.Sothat'showIwouldrespondtothat.
David:IwouldsayIdon'tknowwhatIthinkanditdoesn'tmatterwhatIthink.No,itreallydoesn'tbecauseI'veheardpeoplearguethatUtahStateUniversitycouldusethingsnon‐commercially,witha
non‐commerciallicence,buttheUniversityofPhoenixcouldnotbecausethey'reforprofit.Nowwe'rebacktoadefinitionaroundthenatureoftheuser.I'veheard,I'veheardeverybodysayeverythingunderthesun,andtheonlythingthatmattersiswhattherightsholderimaginedintheirmindwhenthey
appliedthenon‐commercialclausetotheirmaterialandtheniftheyfindyoudoingsomethingoutsideofwhattheyimaginednon‐commercialmeantthentheysendyouaniceemail,thentheysendyouaceaseanddesistorwhateverhappens.
Itdoesn'tmatterwhatIthinkbecausethereisnodefinitionandthere'snowaytoknowaheadoftime
whetherwhatyou'redoingviolatestheimaginedcriteriainthemindofthelicensor.Andsothisiswhyyouhearpeoplesaythingslike,“Iwouldnevereverusenon‐commerciallylicensedcontentbecauseIcan'tprotectmyself.Idon'thavespelledoutformewhatI'mallowedtodoandwhatI'mnot.Idon't
knowwhat'sbeenimaginedinhismindwhenhesaysnon‐commercial.SoIcan'tcomply.OrIcan'tbesurethat,Icantrytocomplyinmycommonsensewaybut,Ithinkonethingthatwedoknowisthat
differentpeoplehavedifferentcommonsenses.”Sothere'sawholegroupofpeoplewhowillsay“Iwillnevertouchitwithatenfootpole,”andifyouwerereally,reallyworriedaboutbeingsuedthat'stheonlystanceyoucouldtake.WhatIthinkdoesn'tmatter.It'swhatthepersonwholicenseditthinksand
thatmeansthereisamilliondifferentdefinitions.
Paul:Iwonderifwecouldjusttakelikefifteenminutes,hearanythingfromanybodywho'sbeenlisteningtoyoubothaboutwhatwasconvincingoneitherthisissueorsomeofthepreviousonesthatthey'vebeendiscussing,anythingthattheyfoundparticularlycompellingorconvincing?
[pause]
Stephen:Sowe'vespenttheentiremorningandnobodyhasfoundanythingconvincing?
David:You'reaskingthemtotakesideswhich…
Stephen:Pickmyside.
Paul:Maybetheytokindofreflectonwhatthey'rehearingandseewhethertheyagree.Allright,we'll
takeabreakforlunch,we'llpickupagainatonethirty.
Stephen:Onethirty.
David:Andwedowanttocomeroundtoenclosure.Wedidn'tgetthereyet.
Stephen:Yeah,absolutelybecausethat'skey.
David:That'strue.
Stephen:Well,andthewholetuitionthingisrelatedtothat,yeah.
(Applause)
David:Ithinkweshouldapplaudtheendurance.
Stephen:Nokidding,yeah.
David:ImeanIhopeyou'reFacebookingorreadingyouremailordoingsomething.
Stephen:Wedidkidbeforethestartthatweweregoingtodotheentirethinginmonotonejustforfun,seehowlongyouallendured.
David:Iwasgoingtodomybestprofessor(…)I'dliketowelcome(…)
PartThree‐Institutions,AccreditationandCommercialismSegment3(1:30‐3:00)
Recordedaudio:Recordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley3.mp3
• Commercialvs.Non‐commercialOERProduction• IntrusionofCommercialvaluesintopersonalandnon‐Commercialspace• OpenEducationandtheLong‐TermRoleofInstitutions• ModelsforOpenAccreditation:CanTheywork?
Moderator:JeffMiller
Jeff:We’realmostreadytostartthisnextsession,whichmeansI’llquicklyintroduceeverybodyasItalk
andgetitoutoftheway.Justincaseanyoneiskeepingtrack,currentlyonGoogleyoucanfindtwelvemillion,threehundredthousandpicturesofducks,sowe'remakingsomeprogress,maybewithoureffortswecangetituptotwelvemillionfourhundredthousandandifweputourcollectivemindat
work.
Someone:Wow.
Someoneelse:Well,yeah,let’s...
Someone:(Laughs)
Jeff:Sothere’sonesuccessoutofthis.So,allright,inthisnextsessionwe'regoingtotalkaboutinstitutions,accreditationandcommercialismandperhapspickingupalittlebitonwhatweleftoffwiththismorning,startingwithcommercialversusnon‐commercialopeneducationalresourceproduction
andI,Iassumeproductionasopposedtolicensing,theintrusionofcommercialvaluesintothepersonalandnon‐commercialspace,openeducationandthelongtermroleininstitutionsandmodelsforopenaccreditationandthequestion,cantheywork?Sowe'll,we'lltakethisuntilthreefifteen.Thankyou.
Stephen:Well,yeah,me,guesswhowrotemostofthetopicsinthissegment.
(Shortlaugh)
David:Andlet'snotforgetenclosurebeforewe...
Stephen:Yeah,and,andwedidn't,thatwasontheprevioussectionwasn'tit?
David:Yeah.
Stephen:Yeah.Welllet,letmesketch,becauseIthinkitisanimportantargument,soimportantthatitgetsmusicalaccompaniment.
(Shortlaugh)
Stephen:Sorry,Iloveworkingthosein.Overtheyearsitbecomesachallenge,howcreativelycanyou
workin...
David:Incorporatethephoneringing.
Stephen:So,here,letmesetthisup,becausetheargumentisoftenmadethatiftheresourceisavailableinanopenmanner,thatis,youknow,openlyavailable,howeverwedefinethat,thatitdoesn'tmatterthatthere'snocommercialversions,becauseeventhoughtherearecommercialversionsofthe
resource,youcanalwaysaccessthenon‐commercialversion.Anditseemslikeaprettyappealingargument,right,andyeah,onthefaceofitweshouldsortofbesuspiciousbecause,youknow,onthefaceofit,welliftheverysameresourceisavailableforfreewhywouldanyonepayforit?
Okay,goaheadDavid.
David:Convenience.
Stephen:Right.
David:SoI'vepaidforDVDs,LinuxdistributionsIcouldhavedownloadedforfreeifI'dwantedtowait
fourgigabytesworthoftimeforittocomedown,andI'vealsopaidforprintedoutversionsofthreehundredandfifty,fourhundredpagebooksIdidn'twanttoreadallthatonthescreen,Iwantedaprintedcopyofit.Becauseeventhoughthefreeversionwasavailable...
Oh,andinthecaseofFlatWorld,theopentextbookpublishingcompany,youcan'tbuythecommercialbookwithoutgoingtothefreebookpagetobuytheprintedbook,andstilloversixtypercentofthestudentsbuyaprintedbookbecausetheywant,presumably,theconvenienceofholdingitintheirhand
andnothavingtoreadtheentirefreethingonline.SoIthinkconvenienceisonereasonthatpeoplepayforstuffthatisavailabletothemforfree.
Stephen:AndIthinkyou'reprobablyright,butyouknow,convenienceisoneofthesethingsthat'sverymalleable,andI'mtrying,tryingtothinkcarefullyabouthowIphrasethisbecause,because,well,I'm
justtryingto.
David:Yeah.
Stephen:The,theargumentthatIwouldliketoofferhereis,let'staketheconveniencething,ifyouhaveacommercialresourceandanon‐commercialresourceandyou'rethevendorofthecommercial
versionoftheresource,whatyouwanttodoismaximisesales.Ifconvenienceisthethingthatmaximisesyoursales,thenwhatyouwanttodoismaximisetheconvenienceofyourresource,right?Well,butconvenienceisarelativething,right?Convenienceisnotanabsolute.Yourresourceis
convenientonlywithrespecttotheotherresource.Right,iftheother,ifthefreeresourceexisted...
David:It'scomparative.
Stephen:Yeah,it'scomparative,sothatmeansthattherearetwowaystomakeyourresourcemoreconvenient.Onewayistomakeyourresourcemoreconvenient,theotherwayistomakeaccesstotheopenresourcelessconvenient.Itturnsoutthatthelatterisamuchmoreeffectivewaythantheformer,
it'scheaperandeasiertomakeithardtogetthefreeresource,thefreeversionoftheresource,andthereareallkindsofwaysthatcompaniescandoit,allkindsofwaysthattheyactuallydodoit,anditwaskindoffunnybecauseIwassortofthinking,wealmosthaveananalogyforthatinoursessionhere
today,oursessionisfree,it'sreallyhardtogetto.
(Shortlaugh)
Stephen:Butthat'sjustanaside.Whenyouthinkaboutit‐Ialludedtothisbeforethebreak–thewayopeneducationalresourcesbecamelearningobjects,theywereappropriatedbypublishersandturnedintopublications.Youknow,it'sfunny,it's,it'sasimpleconcepttobeginwith,youknow,afreelearning
resource,butthentheygotattachedtoeightysevenorwhateverentriesoflearningobjectmetadatawhichinSCORMareallrequired,theSCORMbeingthemorecommercialsideofthings.
Andthencontentpackagingandthen,youknow,the,theideathatthesethingswouldbe,actuallybezipped,soalearningpackageisnolongersimplyvisibleinthebrowseryou,youhavetodownloaditand
thenextractitbeforeyoucanactuallyuseit,and,andzippingitalsocreatesahurdleifyou'recreatingsomethingyourselflikea,apieceofsoftwareorsomethingthatwilluseit,it's,particularlyback,you
know,tenyearsago,itwasn'tstraight,sostraightforward,youjustaddanunzipmodule,youactuallyhadtodoawholepileofworktogetyoursoftwaretounzipthisstuff.
Andthenlegalrestrictions,thewholefear,uncertainty,doubt,Icanmake‐andtherewassomeallusiontothisbeforethebreakaswell‐Icanmakeyouropenresourcelessconvenientsimplybythreateninga
lawsuit.Idon'tevenhavetoactuallythreatenalawsuit,allIhavetodoisactuallysuggestthatalawsuitisapossibilityandthenallofasudden,useoftheopenresourceinvokes,youknow,scenariosoflawyersandlegalcases,Imightaswelljustpay,sobecausethisisthecase,the,thecommercialisation
oflearningresources,the,theuseofcommercialversionsofagivenresourceactuallypushesustowardustowardthatcommercialuseandpushesawayfromtheopenuse,makesitharderandhardertoaccesstheopenversionoftheresource.
There's,there'sallkindsofexamples,youknow,andtheO'Reillycaseisagoodone,becauseO'Reilly
knewthisortheO'Reillycompanyknewthis,right,youallowcommercialuseofyourpublications,otherpeoplewilltakeadvantageofthatandactuallypushyouasideifthey'rebigger,morepowerful,theycan
justwipeoutthemarketplace.Ialluded,again,beforethebreak,toanotherinstanceofthis,wherethepublicationofcommercialRubytextbooksmakesitlesslikelythatanyonewillbotherproducinganopen
versionofaRubytextbook.
Ihadabitofanexampleofthisinmyownlife,Icreatedaguidetothelogicalfallaciesandforyears,itwastheonlyguidetothelogicalfallaciesonline.Theproductionofacommercialguidetothelogicalfallaciesitselfwoulddissuadepeoplefromcreatingopennon‐commercialversionsofthatguidetothe
logicalfallacies,sofloodingthemarket.
Andweseethiseventodayinjournalpublicationsandtextbooksand,youknow,andit'sreallyhardtoevengetoffthegroundwithopentextbooksbecauseoftheexistenceandtheprevalenceofthecommercialmarketplaceintextbooksmakesitseemsofutiletodoso.
TherewasoneotherexampleI'mtryingtothinkofhere,ohyeah,theWikipediaexample,nowI'mjust
waitingforthistohappen,therewasatime,it'snotthecaseanymore,buttherewasatime,anytimeIwouldsearchonGoogleforagivenWikipediaarticle,I'dgetoneofthesecommercialclonesofWikipediaandbasicallywhattheywoulddois,they'd,they'dtakeWikipedia'scontent,whichyou're
allowedtodo,putitonlinewithawholebunchofadsaroundit,andthenusesearchengineoptimisationtodrivepeopletotheircontentratherthantoWikipedia,andforawhilethere,untilGooglechanged‐andGoogleactuallyhadtointerveneandchangethealgorithm‐butuntilthen,that
wasallyoucouldfind,youcouldneverfindtheactualWikipediaarticle,you'dgetthisthingpollutedwithalltheseadvertisementsonit.
Andwhenyouaredrivingrevenuefromyourclonedversion,youcanspendmoneyonsearchengineoptimisation,youcanspendmoneymakingithardertogetthefreelyaccessiblecontent,andyoucan
spendmoneytomakeitprettymuchimpossible(toaccess).
WesometimestalkaboutthecaseofopeneducationalresourcesinAfrica,andyou'veheardtheargumentandI'veheardtheargumentwherethereareplacesinAfricawhere(thereareplaces
everywherebuttheargumentusuallyaddressesAfrica)internetaccessandindeedevencomputeraccessisveryhardtocomeby,andsoyouneedtoprintthestuffoutand,andcarryitinandthat'showpeoplecangetaccesstoopeneducationalresources.Except,youknow,thisalwaysinvolvesagreat
cost,andthereforeneedstobecommercial.Otherwiseitsimplywouldn'tbedoneatall.Butthethingis,whathappensinthesortofenvironmentwherethere'sacommercialindustryhastakenaholdisthattheynowhaveanincentivetodissuadegovernmentfrominvestingininternetaccessbecausetheir
marketdependsontherenotbeinginternetaccess,sotheexistenceofacommercialmarket,particularlywherethecommercialmarketistheonlyaccess,actuallypreventsthedevelopmentofanopenmarket.
Youknow(andIhesitate,butnotverymuch)tostepintotheUShealthcaredebate,butweseethe
samesortofthinghere,wheretheexistence,themereexistenceoftheprivatehealthcareshereisinitselfbeingusedtocreateanentirecampaignagainstapublicoption.TheUSisjustbeingpresentedwithapublicoption,right?Notevenlikewhatwehaveherewhereit'spublichealthcareperiod,buta
publicoptionandthey'resaying,“No,youcan'tdothat”,andthelinewealwayshearisquote‐unquote,“Unfaircompetition”.
InBritain,theBritishBroadcastingCorporation,BBC,asyouknow,putsmaterials,learningmaterials
online.There'sahugelobbyfromthepublishersandtheprivatebroadcastersinBritainagainstthatbecauseBBCisoffering“unfaircompetition”totheireducationalmaterials.Soagain,privateindustrywilllobby,willtakesteps,willtakeactionsinordertopreventtheproductionanddistributionofopen
educationalresources.
Sothisis,allofthistogetheriswhatIcallthe‘enclosureargument’andtheideahereisthat,evenifopeneducationalresources,opencontent,freecontent,exists,ifyouhaveanenvironmentwherethecommercialalternativetoaccessthesamecontentisinplace,theprovidersofthiscommercialaccess
willattempttoenclosetheopencontent.Andtheyencloseinawidevarietyofways,makingitessentiallyimpossibletogettothatcontentwithoutpayingforit.
Artworksinmuseums,youknow,somethingpaintedinthe1200s,presumablycopyrighthasexpiredbutyoustillcan'tgetacopyofitwithoutpayingforit,becausealthoughtheartworkispublicdomain,no
photographsareallowedinthemuseum,sonopersonhasthecapacitytoactuallygointhereandgetacopyofthisthingwithoutbreakingthelaw.AndyouseethesamesortofthingtechnologicallywithdevicessuchastheKindle.
The,theotherpointIwanttomakethoughtooisthatwhenwehavethiskindofset‐upwiththe
commercialmarketplaceandtheopencontent,thetendencyistosqueezeoutandsqueezeoutandsqueezeouttheopencontent.Lookatthebookstore‐I'msurethere'sabookstorearoundheresomewhereinthemiddleofVancouver‐gotothebookstore,seehowmanyfreebooksyoucanfindin
thebookstore.Therearenone,allright,andtherearenonenotbecausetheydon'texist,notbecausetheywouldn'texist,butbecausethebookstoreresolutelyrefusestoallowthem.
Andsimilarly,youknow,and,andwhetherornotitisinfactthecasethepotentialisforittobethecase
withmarketplaceslikeiTunes,withmarketplacesliketheKindle,whereshouldtheyachieveanythinglikeubiquity,itwillbeimpossibletogetfreecontentonthem.SomepeoplehavebeenpublishingtheirblogonKindle,Iaskedthem,“IsitpossibletopublishyourblogforfreeonKindle?”,apparentlynot,
nowthismayormaynotbethecasetoday,whoknows,thingschangesomuch,but,butthatisstillthedirectionwhichthistravels.
ThisiswhywhenIproduceopencontentforlearning,IthinkthatIampromotingmorefreecontentforlearning,bymakingitnon‐commercial,becauseassoonthecommercialsideofitcomesintoplay,as
soonasthere'sacommercialversionofthiscontentwe,westarttheclockonhowlongit'sgoingtobebeforetheycloseoffaccesstoallthenon‐commercialpartofthecontentandwecomebacktotheoriginalstartingpoint,wheremypositionisIamthinkingoffreedomasitimpactsthepeoplewhodo
notyethaveaccesstothecontent.
And,youknow,Idon'tcare,frankly,howfreeornon‐freethepersonwiththecontentfeels,Idocareagreatdealabouthowfreeornon‐freethepersonwhodoesnothaveaccesstothecontentfeels,
becausethetheprinciplesdon'tmatterthe,thenamingdoesn'tmatter,ifasamatterofpragmaticfactyoucannotaccessthecontentwithouthavingtopay,withouthavingtogothroughawholelotof
contortionsorwhatever,thenitisnotopenandifitisnotopen,you,yourfreedom,yourcapacitytobecomeeducated,tomakesomethingofyourself,tohave‘thegoodlife’,isimpaired,andsothat,that'swhyItaketheattitudethatIdo,andthatinanutshellistheenclosureargument.
David:So,quickresponseandthenweshouldgetontothesupposedtopicofthis.
Stephen:(Laughs)(...)thisisaprettycoretopic.
David:Yeah,yeah,noIthinkthisimportanttoo.IguessontheonehandI'mnotsure,Iseehowit's
easierforanevilperson(let'sjustcharacterisethem)whowantstocomeinandoverwhelmyouropencontentandmakesurenoonecanfinditandthattheybuytheirproprietaryversionandnottheopenversion,itisslightlyeasierforthemifyouallowcommercialusesofyourworksotheycanjustpickitup
anduseitagainstyou,butiftheyreallyhaveamotivationforpeopletobuyfromtheminsteadofusingyoursforfree,they'lljustcreatetheirownversionorgolicenseitfromsomeoneelseorfinditsomewhereandcompetewithacopyrighted(content).
Youknow,theRubybooksinthestore,theO'ReillyRubybookwillbemarketedanditwillcompete
againsttheopenRubybooks,eventhough,youknow,some,the,ithadtobecreatedfromscratch,itwasn'tleveragedfromexistingopencontentbackagainsttheoriginalauthorortherightsholder.
WhenyouthinkaboutthingslikeOpenOfficeversusMicrosoftOfficeortheGimpversusPhotoshop,andif,ifyoudon'thavetheresourcestodoSEOyourself,tocompetewiththecommercialpublisher
who'sgoingtoinvestinSEOagainstyou,youstilldon'thavetheSEOresourcesevenifthatperson'snotthere,soif,ifyoudon'tknowhowtomakeyourstufffindable,evenifyouproduceitunderanopenlicenseif,ifyou'renotwillingorableorcapableorwhateverof,ofusingSEOonitthatway,it'snot
goingbeeasilyfindable,whetherthere'sacommercialcompetitorornot,Ithink,there'sjustsomuchstuffoutthere.
IfpeopleknowhowtousetheadvancesearchinGoogleorsomething,youknow,tolookforopenly
licensedthings,thenthey'llfindit,butthosepeoplewillfindstuffevenif(it’senclosed),they'regoingtofindstuffanyway.SoIunderstand,now,whereyou'recomingfromintermsofenclosure,butI'mjustnotsure.IcanseehowusingtheNClicensemakesitalittleharderforthenextguy,becausenowhehas
toproducehisowninsteadofjustreusingyours,butusingtheNClicensedoesn'tpreventthemfrombuyingsomebodyelse'scontentorlicensingitorproducingtheirownanddoingthesamethingtoyouanyway,itjustmakesitalittleharder,Ithink,wouldyouagree?
Stephen:Well,yeah,Imean,Ihavetoagreebecausethatpartofit'sprettyobvious.
David:WellsomethingsIthinkareobviousareapparently(not?).
Stephen:WellImeancouldsomebody,couldacommercialcompany,producearesource,yeah.Right.
Couldacommercialcompanyproducearesourcethatiskindoflikeyours?Well,yeah,right,andsothatpartofit'sprettyobvious.
David:If,ifthemarket'sbigenoughforthemtowanttotakeyourmaterialanddosomethingelsewithit,ifthey'regoingtogotoallthateffort,becausethere'senoughofamarketthere,Ithinkthey'dalsobe
incentivisedtoproducetheirowntocompete.
Stephen:Well,yeah.Butthere'sabig,bigdifferencebetweenjusttakingwhatyou'vedone,copyingitandputtingitoutthereandcreatingyourown,as,youknow...
David:Mmm‐hmm,admittedly.
Stephen:...becauseyouknow,ifwejustlookat,onecompany,oneperson,wellyeahokay,it’snotareallybigchallengeforthecompany,butifyoulookatthebalance,onecompany,fivehundred
thousandpeople,nowallofasudden,thefivehundredthousandpeopleproducingopenresourcesareamassingresourcesthatthecompanycan'tmatch.Right?Fivehundred,youknow,nocompanycanproducethatkindofcontent,it'slikeWikipedia.Whatcompanyintheworldcouldpossiblypaypeople
toproducethatmuchcontent?It’sjust,justbeyondthescaleofcomprehensionofanycompany.
Theycancertainlycopyit,it'sjustsomesimplelittlecomputerprogramme,right?Read,write,read,write,realsimple,youcandoitinoneline,socopyingisreallyeasy,recreatingfromscratch,alotharder.Oncewegetintothesortofeconomicsofmassproductionofopencontent,it'snotaboutmeas
anindividualfacingoffagainstJoePublisher,whomayormaynotbeevil,wecanactuallyleavetheevilpartofitout,right,it'sjustJoePublisherdoingbusinessaspublishersdobusinessinthetwenty‐firstcenturyWesterneconomyandthis,thiswholemarketplacemanipulationispartofnormalbusiness
practice.IsometimesrefertoShaperoandVarian,InformationRules14,theymapallofthisout.Noneoftheseare,areunusualtactics,illegal,they'renotevenunderhanded,they'reopenlydone,it'sjustthewayyoudobusiness.
David:But,butifanopencontentproducerisn'twillingtoengagewiththosethings,whyshouldthey
expecttoshowupabovethecommercialpublisher.
Stephen:Typicallyyouwouldn'texpectthecommercialpublishertoevenhaveaversionofwhattheopenpersonisdoing,okay,rememberwe,we,wetalkedearlier,rightattheverybeginningofthe
sessionaboutthespecificityoftheresourcethatyoucangetatwithopencontent,right.
David:LikeWhy’s,mmm.
Stephen:Exactly,right,now,imaginethevariouspeople,howevermanypeoplewhoareoutthereinthecommunity,doingtheirowntakeonRuby,right,apublishermightmatchoneortwoofthem,butapublisherisn'tgoingcreateaversionofeverysingleoneofthem.It'sonlyifthepublishercancopyand
repostthattheycanproduceversionsofalloftheworksthatarecreatedbypeopleinthecommunity,soyourtypicalwayofreachingthetopofthesearchengineis,thereisnocommercialresourceofthattypeavailable,andtheonlywaythatthat'sthecaseisifthepublisherfacesthesamesortofbarrierthat
youdid,theactualbarrierofcreatingtheresource.Doesthatmakesense?
14http://www.amazon.com/Information‐Rules‐Strategic‐Network‐Economy/dp/087584863X
David:It,itdoesmakesensebutI'mtryingtothink,soit,itactuallyparallelsalittlebitargumentswe'vebeenhavingaboutdraftopentextbooklegislationintheUS,ithasn'tbeenintroducedyet,we'restill
workingonit,butthereisaquestionthereaboutwhichlicensewouldbethebestlicensetousefor,saythegovernmentwasgoingtocreateacompetitiveprogrammeandawardgrantspeopletocreateopentextbooksand,andwhat,shouldwerequireaspecificopenlicense?Andwhenwedidthat,thefeeling
wasyes,okay,sowhichopenlicenseshouldwerequirethemtouse,andsomepeopleimmediatelysaidwehavetodonon‐commercialandallthisotherstuff,andotherpeoplesaidwellattributionisenough,ifthepeople'staxmoneypaidforit,itoughttobeavailabletoallthepeopleonthesameterms,it
belongstothemand,eventually,me.
The,thepartofthatargumentthatwasmostinterestingtomeisgoingandlookingatRich(Bearnecks?),DSPtextbookinConnexions,whichisthe,thecorepieceof,the,theoriginalpieceofcontentinConnexions15.
Stephen:Right,Connexions,forpeoplewhodon'tknowisRiceUniversity'sConnexions,spelledwithan
X.
David:WithanX,right.So,hereandRichisaNationalScienceFoundationcareerawardwinnerandalltheseother,theseoutstandingelectricalengineer,reallygoodqualitytextbookonDSP,it'sbeeninConnexionsforlikeeightyearsnowunderthemostliberallicensepossible,justattribution,andinthat
eightyearperiodoftimewiththisreallygreatqualitypieceofcontent,there'sneverbeenapublisherpickitup,republishitandtrytosellitanywhereandinfactofalltheopenlylicensedtextbooksthatexistintheworld,like,youknowtheLightMatterseriesorwhatever,thathaveliberalopenlicenses
thatwouldallowapublishertoscoopthemupandrepublishthemandtrytoburytheopenversion,ithasn'thappenedasingletime,andsomeofthemarelikeRich'sbookislikeeightyearsoldnow.
Andsointheargumentaboutwhatwasappropriateinthelicense,westartedaskingthisquestionof,
obviouslythiscouldhappenanditwouldbeveryeconomicalforapublisherjusttoscoopupthatcontent,reformatitand,youknow,startsellingitanddoSEOthingstoburythefreeversion,whatever.
Stephen:AnditdidhappenwithWikipedia.
David:Welltheydidn'tburythe,accesstoWikipedia,youknow,Imeanpeoplehavescoopeditupandtriedtoresellaccesstoit.
Stephen:They,theyburyitintheGooglelistings.
David:The,thetextbookpublisherswetalkedtosaid,youknow,the,youknowthecontent'sdone,
thereisafairlysignificantinvestmentintaking,gettingitreformatted,itwouldneedsomeartworkadded,needsomestuffdone,butbecauseithasthatreallyliberallicense,wecouldn'tgetanexclusiveangleonit,andsoit'snoteven,it'snotworthourtime,becauseifitbecamereallypopular,everyother
publisherwouldjustgopickupthattextanddothesamethingandthere,there,there'snorealwayforustocompetewithitbecausethelicenseistooopenonitsowejust,wewouldnevertouchit,it'snot
15http://cnx.org/
worthinvestingthemoneyin.Andjustas,asactual,youknow,notquiteadecadebutactualyearsoflivedexperienceofpeopleavoidingitandreportingtheiravoidingitforthatreason,itseemslikean
interestingcounter‐argumenttotheenclosuremodelthatyou'reputtingforth.
Stephen:I,Ithinkmaybeyou'remoretrustingofwhatpublisherssaythanIam,because...
David:WellbutRichcantellyou,there,thereisnocommercially(talkingtogether)versionof...
Stephen:OhIwouldfreelybelievethat,thatpartofitIhavenoproblembelieving,thereisnopublishedversionofthiscourse,right.
David:Youthinkit'snot,ithasn'tbeenpublishedforadifferentreasonthantheonethat's...
Stephen:...it'snot,it'snotsomethingthatwouldbepopularenough,it'snotsomethingthatwouldhaveawideenoughmarket.Publishers...
David:EveryengineeringstudenttakesDSPthough,Imeanasfarastextbooksgo,that...
Stephen:Butnoteveryengineeringstudenttakesthattextbook.
David:Right.
Stephen:So.
David:Butthatdoesn'tstopeachpublisher...
Stephen:...theyalreadyhavetheirowntextbooks,right,so,theydon'tneedthisparticulartextbook,
theyalreadyhavetheirown.Imeanthe,the,thesuggestionthatthepublisherwouldn'tpublishitbecausetheycouldn'thaveexclusivityisnotbelievableonthefaceofitbecauseweknowthatpublisherspublishbookshaveformanyyearsbeeninthepublicdomain,liketheIliad,right,wegoto
theself‐samebookstore,wecanfindacopyoftheIliad,published,probablybyPenguin,right,and...
David:Whatabout,but,butthesebookscostlikefivebucksandit'snotatextbook.
Stephen:Buttheystilldoit.All,allIhavetoshowisthattheydoit.Sopublishersdopublishbooksthatareinthepublicdomain,thattheydon'thaveexclusivity,sowhenthepublisherssaytheywon'tpublish
bookswheretheydon’thaveexclusivity,it'snottrue.
David:Welltheysaytheywon'tbecausethere'stoomuchinvestmentneededtotakeitfromwhereitis,toturnitintoaqualitytextbook,whereaswiththeIliad,youjustputacoveronitandpublishit.Youdon'thavetodoalottoit,yousay,hey,thisistheIliad,youknow,andthenpeoplewillbuyitforfive
bucks.
Stephen:Ourmoderator'stryingtogetourattention.
Jeff:I'dliketotaketheprerogativeinbeingthemoderator,butjustaskforapointofdistinction,we'retalkingalotaboutpublicationsintermsofnowtheIliad,books,monographsandsuchandcouldyou
offerussomedistinctionbetweenpublicationsthatareopeneducationalresources,courses,learningresourcesandsuchandthekindofissuesthatcomeupintermsofwhatweconsiderpublicationthere
asanimperative,thingsthatlike,textbooks.It’sadifferentthingthanpublishingacourse,andthatthepublicationofacourseisperhapssimilarordifferentthanthepublicationofamanuscript.Canyouperhapsnarrowinalittlebit,onthatdistinction?
Stephen:WellnowIthinkthatmightbetheanswertowhywedon'thaveapublicationofthiscourse,
it'scourse,it'snotabook,right,and,andthecontentonConnexions,youknow,isn'teasilydraw‐uppable,we'llpretendIdidn'tsaythat...
Jeff:Oh,Ijustwroteitdown.
Stephen:Ohoh,it'son,it'salreadyonTwitter,it'stoolatenow,youknow,cannotbeeasilydraw‐uppable,beturnedintoabook.
David:Well,actuallyIthinkthere'sabuttonyoucanpushthatwillgeneratethewholethingasaprint
readyPDFsoIthinkit'sactuallyinthecaseofConnexions,Ithinkit'sveryeasily,infactIthinkit'saseasilydraw‐uppable,assumingthepossible,inthecaseofConnexionsbutformostotherplacesit,it'snot,really.
Stephen:Then,youseenow,yousee,justafewminutesagoyousaidthepublishertoldyouthey'dhave
todoallkindsofthings,andnowwehearthethingsthattheyhavetodoispushabutton.
David:Oh,no,no,no,no.
Stephen:Well.
David:Todrawitup,tohaveitinPDFsoyoucanprintoutisabuttonpush,butifyoulookatthat,Imean,it'snotlaidout,it'sjusttextonthepage,there'snotanydesignworkoranythingputintomakingitlooklikesomethingthatifyouhadachoicebetweenthatandfourothercommercial
textbookslaidoutinfrontofyou,ifalltheydidwasprintwhatcameoutofConnexionsandjustsetitthere,you'd,you'dflipthroughitlikethisandthenyou'djustpushitasidebecausethere'snocolour,
there'snothis,there'snothat,there'snoneofthecoachingandguidinganddesignthatgoesintowhatweexpectoutofaqualityresource,it'sjustbeenbundledupandmadeeasyforyoutoprint.There'salotofdesignworkonthe,onthebackendofpublishingsomethingthatlookslikeadecentquality
textbook.
Stephen:And(Pause),howwillI,willIputthis,seeagainit'sthe,you'rehavingitbothwayskindofthing...
David:WellIliketowhenIcan.(Laughs)
Stephen:Yeah,it'sreally,reallyeasytoprintthisoutbutit'swaytoofarfrombeingatextbook,youknowwhatImean,it'sjustlike,thelicensethingsaredifficulttorespondtobecausethey'remushy,and
IknowI'mthelastpersontoaccusesomebodyofbeingmushybut...
David:WellwetotallyduckedhisquestionbutIthink...
Stephen:Yeah.
David:...we'restartingtoanswerit.
Stephen:Well,yeah,Imean,Imeanlet,let,let'scometothiswholethingof,ofcoursesor,orevenwhatyou'vejustsaid,youknowlike,liketake,takethosesortsofstatements,andanalysethem,it'sgotto
havethis,it'sgottohavethat,it'sgottohavecolours,it'sgottohavelayout,it'sgotto,whatbeprintedinTimesNewRoman,whatever,ifit'sacourseit'sgottohavethis,it'sgottohavethat,youknow,even,youknow,the,theConnexionsstuffhasalotofthisstuffbuiltintotheenginesothatyoucanputinall
theseaspectsofacourse,orifyoucreateacourseonMoodle,youknow,you'vegotyourdiscussion,andyou'vegotyourresources...
David:Yourstandardsetoftools.
Stephen:Yeah,andthere'sthispresumptionthattheproductionoftheseresourceswillinvolveallofthat,it'syour,“Ohit'ssoexpensiveandhardtoproduce”kindofargument,youknow,youknow,we,
“Wewouldn'tevenbotherunlesstherewasenoughofareturnbecauseit'ssohardtodo”,youknowwhatImean,I'm,I'mcaricaturingit,italittlebitbutthat'sbecauseIwanttocontrastthat,againwithmypictureofaduckwhichasitturnsoutisremarkablysimpletoproduce,thereare,howmany?
Jeff:Twelvemillion,threehundredthousandandone.
Stephen:Twelvemillion,threehundredthousandandonepicturesofaduckavailableontheinternet
and...
David:Thesearetheopenlylicensedones.
Jeff:But,butonlyninemillionpicturesofcows,so,there'sworktobedone.
(Laughter)
Stephen:So,there'scorrespondinglymoreofamarketforpublisherstoproducepicturesofcowsthanpicturesof,nevermind.Now,but,soifyouwanttospecialiseintheproductionofpicturesofducksasa
commercialenterprise,right,merelyproducingapictureofaduckisnotgoingtobesufficientanymore,right,ithastobehardtodo,itmustbeamallard,itmustbeSeptember,thetwelfth,from,youknowwhatImean,it'slikeyougetmore,andanythingthatisn'toneofthoseisalowerqualityduck.Aswell,
theduckmustbemetataggedanditmustappearintheregistryofduckphotographs,forwhichyoumustpayand,Icouldgoon,but,butyousortofgetthepicturethatI'mdrawinghere?The,thispresumption,this,thisargumentthatyouneedtodothis,youneedtodothis,youneedtodoallof
thosethingsandthephrasingwasthat,youknow,I'mparaphrasingyou,thatpeoplewouldassociatewithagoodtextbook,alotofthatisinvention,alotofthatisexpectationsthathavebeencreatedforus.
David:That,that'sabsolutelytrue,butwhenthestatereviewboardsitsdowntodecidewhichtextbooksthey'regoingtoallowtobeadoptedstatewide,ifyourthingissofaroutinleftfieldthatit
doesn'tevenlooklikewhatwe'reconsidering,thenthechancethatyou'regoingtohaveabigimpactonalargegroupofpeopleisverysmall.Andthat'sokayifyoudon'twanttohavealargeimpactonthatparticulargroupofpeoplebutifyouwanthighschoolstudentstosave,ifyouwantschoolstosave
money,becausetheyadoptedthisopenresourceinsteadofpayingfortextbooks,thenyouhavetodowhatneedstobedonesothatthatopenresourcefeelsacceptabletothepeoplethatmakethatdecision.
Stephen:Well,letmeseeifIcan'tfindithere...
David:Andyoudon'thaveto,butifyoudon'tmakethateffortyoujustcan'tcomplainwhentheydon't
adoptyouropencontent.
Stephen:Letmeseehere,I'mjustlookingforthisbecausethiscameup,okay,it'shardtoreadandtalkatthesametimebut,therewasthe(Longpause)...
David:Wewouldtalkwhileyou'researchingbutIwouldprobablychangethesubject(...).
Stephen:Yeah,sorry,wellthisisoneofthethings,thisisoneofthereasonswhywe'retakingthetimetodothis.
David:Right.No,whatIwouldsayisthatifyougointoGoogleandusetheiradvancedsearchtofind
onlyCreativeCommonslicensedphotosofducks,you'llseethatthefirsttwo,andthreeofthefirsttenarephotographsofHowardtheDuck...
Stephen:(Laughs)
David:...comicbookcoverswhichareclearlycopyrightedandyetthesephotoshavebeenpostedwiththeCreativeCommonslicenseonthemwhichisslightlyproblematic.Anyway.
Stephen:Withthataside,yeah.
David:Justanasideasyousearch...
Stephen:It's,it'sallthedatathatthey'renotallowingcommercialuse,Imeanyouknow.That'sthething,yougetintocommercialuseyougetintoallkindsofliabilitiesandyouknow.ThisisMaysixth16actually;thisisthethingthatactuallypromptedmetosaysomeofthisstuff...
David:Areyougoingtoreadmebacktomenow?
Stephen:No,I'mgoingtoreadmebacktoyou,yougotitworse.
David:Okay,good.(Laughs)
16http://www.downes.ca/post/48860
Stephen:Ah,okay,here,I'lljustreadit,it'sfaster,“DavidWileyproposestorevamplegislationthatwouldproduceopentextbooks,”nowI'mquoting,“Thelegislationwouldcreatecompetitivefunding
opportunities...”‐rightoffthebatit'sabitofaredflagforme,butthat'sacompletelydifferentissue‐“thelegislationwouldcreatecompetitivefundingopportunities...”,becausethere'sthispresumptionthatcompetitionactuallyproducesbetterresultsbut...sorryDave.
David:(Laughs)
Stephen:“...wouldcreatecompetitivefundingopportunitiestocreateopentextbooksinanycontent
area.Thesewouldbemulti‐stagegrants(liketheSBIRprogram),withadditionalfundingtiedtothesuccessfulcompletionofinitialprojectgoals."
Okay,nowthisismeagain,peoplewouldfile,I'mparaphrasingwhatyousaid,peoplewouldfileproposalsansweringkeyquestionssuchasthenatureofthebook,thecostofexistingbooks,
management,marketingplans,andaproposedlicensingscheme,disbursementwouldbeincrementalbasedonmeetingprojectgoalsand,quote“Acontent‐completeversionoftheopentextbookmustgoonlinewithalltext,images,andotherfeaturesoftheprintedversionavailabletothepublicforfree,
unrestricted,unfetteredaccess,”unquote,okay,nowmeagain,“IammostlyinagreementwithWiley'sproposal(Iopposethe(quote)‘letterofsupportfromareputablepublisher’asthiswouldtorpedothewholeproject),andwouldsupportasimilarmechanismhereinCanada.”
Thinkaboutwhatyou'vejustdonewiththat.Thepublishersaresupposedtowritetheselettersof
supportfortheseopenresources,right?Myfirstquestion:whatincentiveintheworldwouldapublisherhavefordoingsuchathing?Andtheanswerofcourseisnone,butevenmoretothepoint,whatthepublisherwilldoisdemandtheproductionofresourceintensive,veryspecific,well,youknow,
like,youknownatureofthebook,costofexistingbooks,marketingplans,management,allofthoseelements,right,the,thepublisherbasically,inacasewhereyoudidn'treallyneedanythingtoofancy,
thepublisherwouldrequirethisCadillacversionofatextbookandthatiswhatwouldcountas“quality”andonlythatwouldbeadmissibleforthesestatewidethings,thestatewidedeploymentandofcoursethosearerequirements.
It'swhatIcallthehighbarrequirement,right?Yousetthebarsohighthatnogenuineproduceroffree
andopencontentcouldevermeetsucharequirement,butit'snotagenuinerequirement.It'sgenuineinthesensethatthestateactuallyasksforit,butthestate'saskingforitontheadviceofpublisherssothepublisherisofferingthesortofadvicethatmostpromotesitsownbusiness,so...
David:SoshallI?
Stephen:Yeah,okay.
David:So,Brandon,howmuchmoneyhasNSBLspentthelastfifteenyears?
Brandon:Abouttwohundredmilliondollars.
Stephen:Howmuch?
David:Twohundredmillion.
Stephen:Twohundredmillion.
Brandon:Yeah.
David:US,yeah...
Brandon:Whichvariesovertime.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Yeah,yeah.SoyoulookatHewlett?,and(Andey?)howmuchhasHewlettinvested(onyour?)?Sixtyeightorsomething?
Andy:Yeah.
David:Anyway,so,frommyperspective,wehave,sothisisjustoneNSFprogrammethatwe're,results
largelyintheproductionofopeneducationalresources,yeahifHewlettfundinggoingintothingslikeConnexionsandtheotherprojects,thisis,bevery,veryconservative,takethosetwonumbers,roundoff,andsaythreehundredmilliondollarsofpublicorphilanthropicmoneyspenttoproducecontent
thatshouldostensiblybeopen.
Stephen:Andyet...
David:Ifyoucomeback,ohit,it's,it'sopen,whatit'snotdoingisifyoulookatelementaryschools,middleschools,publicschools,universities,it'snotdisplacingcommercialcontent.
Stephen:Ofcoursenot.
David:Andthereforeit'snotsavinganyoneanymoney.Sowhatwetry,andI'mstillnot‐andsothisisthelegislationIwastalkingaboutbefore‐I'mstillnotsurewhatit'sgoingtolooklikeattheend,whenit
doesgetintroduced,whatwewantedtosaywas,weonlywanttogiveyoufunding‐thisifIwaskingoftheworld,thisisthewaythegrantpartwouldwork‐yougooutandyoulookandseehowmany
studentsbuyatextbooklikethisinthecourseoftheyear,what'stheaveragenewcost,what'stheaverageusedcost,whatdostudentsintheUSinthiscase,spendonthistextbookeveryyear,that'stheopportunity,that'sthemoneysavingopportunitythatwehavewithanopentextbookthatcould
displacethat.
SostudentsareblowingfivehundredmillionayearonAlgebraOne,orcalculustextbooksorsomething.Thatcomparedtoalittlegraduateleveltextonanalysisofcovariants,wherepeoplespendtwohundredandfiftythousanddollarsayearonthistextbook,sothat'sonemetricofwhichonewewouldwantto
investin.Howmuchmoneycouldwepossiblysavepeople,ifwedothisright,becausethiswouldbegovernmentmoneycomingthrough.
Stephen:Right.Andthispresumesaneducationalsystemotherwiseunaltered.
David:Right,thisiswhatcanwehack,howcanwehacktheexistingsystemnow,asopposedtotryingtodocatastrophicreformofthesystem.Thisisoneplacewherewediffer,you'reacatastrophicreform
guy,I'maverysmallincrementofwhatcanwecanhackintotheexistingsystem...
Stephen:No,you'rea,you'reacatastrophicstatusquoguy.
(Laughter)
David:Oneofthethingswewantedtodo,orthatIwoulddo,ifIwaskingoftheworldIshouldsay,isthatasyouproducethisopencontent,you'dhavetopartnerwithacommercialpublisherthatknowshowtomarket,knowshowtodistribute,knowshowtosetgoalsonforecastsales,andcancomeback
withareasonableestimatetosayifthisbookturnsouttobeanykindofqualityatall,wecanahundredthousandunitsofitinthefirstyear,andifit'sfreeonlinetoeverybody,for,wellahundredthousandunitsmeans,ahundredthousandstudent'sworthoffacultywhoadoptthetextbookastheofficial
textbookfortheirclassbecauseifthefacultymemberdoesn'tadoptit,youhaven'tsavedanybodyanymoney.
Stephen:Nowlet's,let'sanalysethis.
David:Now,nowletmefinishandthenyoucananalysethewholething.
Stephen:I'llforget.
David:Allright,goahead.
Stephen:Wellbecause,I'll,I'llsayitverybrieflyandthen,thenyoucancontinue,wewereattheverybeginningofourtalk,talkingaboutveryspecific,verynicheorientedmaterials,andthatwasthe
strengthofopeneducationalresources,butnowwe'reintomarketingplansandmassproductionandreplacingentirestatesworthoftextbookswiththisonething,twoverydifferentthings.
David:Yeah,andIwouldconsiderthemdifferentbecauseoneistheidealandoneiswhatyoucan
actuallygetdonetomorrow.
Stephen:Exceptthegettingitdone,howmuchmoneyhasbeenspentandthey'restillnotreplacingthetextbook,soagainthisisthisefficiency,you'regoingreallyfasttonowhere.
David:Wellithasn'treplacedanytextbooksbecauseallthefundingthatwe'vedoneinthepasthasbeentothreefacultymemberswhoknowtheircontentandcanwriteagood,agreat,textbookbut
don'tknowhowtomarket,don'tknowhowtogetitinfrontofotherfaculty,otheruniversities,theylackallofthebusinessexperience,businessexpertise,businessprocesstogetthattextbookinfrontofanotherfacultymember,sothatheorshecanadoptit,sothatitdisplacesthetextbookthatprofessorX
iscurrentlyusing.
Sowe'vewastedhundredsofmillionsofdollars,wehaveawebfullofgreatcontentthathasn'tsavedanybodyanymoney,intermsofformaled,andhere'sanopportunityifyoutookopencontentandyoubroughtthepublisherinasapartnertogooutandsay,hereitisafreelyavailableonlineandit's
inexpensiveinprint,whatever,thirtybucksinsteadofahundredandfiftyorsomething,andyousayinthefirstyear.
Sooneofthethingswe'vebeencalculatingwithFlatWorldKnowledgeishowmuchdowethinkwe're
goingtosavepeoplethiscomingfall,takingthetextbooksthatwe'vedone,weknowhowmanyofthemaregoingtobuyaprintedversion,howmanywe'rejustgoingtouseonline,weknowwhatbookstheywerebuying,howmuchtheycostandwe'reguessingthatwe'regoingtosavestudentsintheUS
betweentwoandtwoandahalfmilliondollars,justthisfallbythefacultyadoptinganopentextbookasopposedtoadoptingthePearsonthattheyusedtoadopt.
Andsothatmetricofhowmuchmoneycanweactuallysavepeoplegoingtoschoolwhoarepayingoutrageoustuitionsandwhateverelse,thatmetricseemstomelikeoneweshouldcareabout,andif
wecontinuetodoitthewaywe'vedoneitforthelasttenyears,justproducingcontentandthrowingitonwebsitesandprayingthatsomebodycomesandfindsitandadoptsit,whenthatcommercialpublisher'sputtingreviewcopiesoffourdifferentbooksontheirdesk,it'snotgoingtodisplaceanything
andasfarastheimpactonformaleducation,it'sgoingtocontinuetobezero,so,thisproposalwasonewayofsaying,“howcanweactuallygetopencontenttodisplaceexpensivetextbooksandhaveopencontentactuallysavestudentsmoney?”that's,that'sthegoalofthatproposal.
(HandUp)
Stephen:Yeah,goahead.
Questioner:Isthattosetanexampleoristhattomovethatacrossasforbeforebecauseoneofthe
greatthingsaboutwhatthatdoesissomethingpeoplecanunderstand,andthenschooldistrictscanactuallypointtoyou,soifyou'vegotanagentofchangeinaschooldistrictsomewhereinMichiganwhogoes,“Lookatthedollarfigurethatwe'vegothere”,youcanactuallypresentthatdollarfiguretothe
administrationandthenstartdoingotherthings.Thegoalsgrowifyou'redoingtheirfurtherpathswhereyouare,like,ifyouhaveoneprimarygoalprocessyou'redoing,isitmoreaboutsettingan
exampleofthepossibleorisitforwardingtheactualprojectthatyouhavethere?
David:WellI,Ithinkit'sonlyameaningful,Ithinkit'sonlyameaningfulexampleofwhat'spossibleifyoureallymakethatprojectsucceed.So,ifthe,ifthefirstgoalisn'ttomakethespecificprojectsucceedthenthereisnodownstreambenefits.
Questioner:I'msorry,Imeangettingthenumbersuptothebillionswhereitwouldneedtobetomake
amassive,widechange,becausethat'swhatwe'retalkingabouthere.
David:Wellit,Ican'tchoosebetweenthesetwochoices(...).
(Laughter)
Questioner:Youdon’thaveto.
David:Imeanit,soIdon'tthinkoneprojectcanscaletosolveallthoseproblems.ImeantheUSnow,isitfivehundredmillion,somebodyhelp,inthenewObamaeducationplan,overthenext...
Questioner:Yeah.
David:...tenyears,fivehundredmillion,overthenexttenyearsforopencourses,openmaterial,
whatever,forhighschoolandcommunitycolleges.
Stephen:Happilythat'sstillabitundefined.
David:Yeah,Imean...
Stephen:Isay‘happily’becausetheinitialpresumptionwas,ohit'llbelikecourseware,buthopefullynot.
David:Orliketextbooks.It'shardtosaywhereit’sgoing,butatsomepointthoughthey'regoingtohavetodispersethemoney,andbeforethathappensitwillhavetobedefinedandthere'llhavetoberules
forwhogetsit...
Stephen:Becauseeverytimeyouinvolvemoneythat'swhathappens.
David:Right.Sothatanswertoyourquestions:both.Itneedstosucceed,itneedstoreachadecentnumbertosetanexampleforotherstogetinvolvedindoingitbecauseit'sgoingtotakealotofpeopleworkingonthatmodeltoreachthescaleyouwant,but,andmaybe,youknowI'mjusttooeasily
pleasedorI'mtooconservativebut,butIthink,kindoffirstit’simportantforFlatWorldtosavetwoandahalfmillionbucks...
Questioner:That'sareplicablemodel.
David:...isa,wellit'sareplicablemodel,butIalsothinkthat'sadecentfirstsemesterforacompany.Ohyeah,ifyouwantedtobeabletosay,not,that'snotthebottomlineofhowmuchmoneythey(get?),
it'showmuchmoneytheysave,it'sadoublebottomlinethat,youknow,thattheycallit,what'sthesocialgoodthatwedid,inadditiontomakingenoughmoneytokeepthebusinessgoing,youknow,so...
Stephen:But...there'sacertainpointatwhichthat'smoremarketingthanitisreal.
David:More...
Stephen:Because,Imean,Iput(sawstartsinthebackground)mythingon‘Stephen’sGuidetoLogical
Fallacies’17,in1995andsincethen,Idon'tknow,demonstrablytenthousandpeoplehaveusedthatinsteadofatextbook,thereforemyresourcehassaved,youknow,howevermanythousandsormillionsorwhateverofdollars.
David:Don'tyouwishyouhadabetterhandle,don'tyouwishyouactuallyknew,orhadabetter
estimateof?
17http://www.fallacies.ca/
Stephen:Nobecauseit'sjustmadeup...
David:How,how,howisitmadeup?
Stephen:...madeup,it'smadeupinthesamewaythat,youknow,the,thesalesfiguresthatCDcompaniessaythey'velosttopiratesismadeup.It'smoneytheythinkthattheywouldhavemadehad
thesethingsotherwisenotbeenshared.It'smoneythatwasnotactuallyspentbutthroughsomecalculationtheysayitwouldhavebeen,andit'sthe‘wouldhave’beenpartthatmakesitmadeup.Yousee?Alternativescenario,right?FlatWorlddoingwhateveritdoes,savestwoandahalfmilliondollars
overthecourseofayear,right?Isthattheonlywaytoreplacethattextbookcontent?Wellprobablynot,therearemaybeotherwaysthatsaveevenmore,andmaybehadoneofthoseotherwayscomeintoplaceinsteadofFlatWorld,that'swhatactuallywouldhavebeenspentthatyear,right?Andso,if
weapplyourhypotheticalthatway,theuseofFlatWorldactuallycostmoney.
David:Right,butthat'sahypotheticalandthisissomethingthat'sactuallyhappening.
Stephen:Butnotnextyear.
David:Thisfall.
Stephen:Thisfall,it'sinthefuture,ithasn'thappenedyet.
David:Thefacultymembershavealreadyadoptedthetextbooks,Imeanthat,thatallhappenedinMarchandApril.
Stephen:Yeah,butit'safutureevent,itcouldhavecomeoutdifferently.
Jeff:There'sanotherquestion...
(Laughter)
Questioner:...roleofinstitutionsandmodelsforaccreditation,cantheywork,soperhapsafteryourquestionyoucangoontothoselasttwotopics?
Stephen:Iprobablydon'twanttothrowoffaccreditationuntillaterbut...
Questioner:Yeah,sure.
Stephen:...I,Ithinkthere,thereisanimportantpointhereandthatI'mreallystrugglingtobringout,butIexpectsuccessatsomepoint(Shortlaugh)but...
David:Ireallyamtryingtounderstand.
Stephen:Yeah,no,that'sfairenough.
Questioner:Idowanttoreallypointitout,commercialentities,becausewe'rekeenonwhatyou'redoing,becauseforourproject,formyuniversity'sprojectthatwassomething,thatwasariskand...I
guesswhatI'mreallycuriousaboutisforcourseslikeaspecialistartanddesign,mediaandperformance
institution,sowedon'treallyhaveanyuseoftraditionaltextbookskindofinthewaythat,thatyouwoulddiscuss.Wouldyouuseamarker?I'mjustwonderinghowto,inadifferentcontext,whatyou
mightthinkconcernsforothermediais?Imeanforus,whatwe,whatwedoiscreatefullunitsofcourses,notanentirecoursebutfullunitsandmakethemfreelyavailable,soit'sthelectures,it'sthevideos,it'sabasisforstudentstoputuptheirworkandtocollaboratewitheachotherand....
David:And,andwhat'stheriskthatyou'reperceiving?I’mjustwonderingifthere'saparallelriskto,
again,possibly...
Stephen:Yeah,letme.I'mnotgoingsayrephrasebecauseI'mnotrephrasingwhatyousaid,butI'minterpretingitinaway.Let'stakethecoursethatGeorgeandIdidlastfall18,andwhatGeorgeandIdidlastfallisinsteadofdoingitthenormalcoursekindofwayweopeneditupandsaid,“Anybodywho
wantstocanparticipateandshareallthecontentandalltheresources”,veryOERthatsortofmodel,butalsothe,thequote‐unquote‘instruction’,andwhathappened,andthisisreallyimportant,isthatthenatureoftheinstructionchangesandsoalso(asanaside)thenatureoftheassessmentchanges,
butkey,thenatureoftheinstructionchanges,becauseit'snolongeracaseofaninstructortryingtoleadacohortthroughabodyofmaterials.It'smoreGeorgeandIsortof,Idon'tevenwanttousetheword‘orchestrating’becausethat'stooorganisedaword,butwealmostbecameliketwoamongthis
massofpeopleworkingwithalloftheseresourcesandworkingwithallofthisconversationandthere,thereisn'tevenacentretothecourse,it's,it'sdistributedacrossdifferentapplications,differentplatforms,differentlanguages(becausewehaveastrongSpanishlanguagecomponenttothecourse)
andsowhathappenedhereis,theverymodelofyourtypicaluniversitycoursebreaksdown,nowthisisthesortofthingthatworksbestandpossiblyonlywithoutthecoursetextbook,withoutthestandardcurriculum,withoutthetrappingsofthemodelthatisbeingpreservedthroughthetwoandahalf
milliondollarsavings,right.
David:SoyouandGeorgedidn'tsetoutasetofreadingsandasuggestedorderinwhichpeoplehadtoreadthosereadings?
Stephen:Wesetout,wellIwanttobecarefulherebecauseinasensewedid,wesetoutsomereadings,
wecertainlydidn'tsaythatpeopleshouldreadthereadings,wesuggestedinfactthatpeopleshouldpickandchoosefromamongthematerialsthatwesuggested,orthatotherpeoplesuggested,therewasnosenseofa‘bodyofcoursecontent’thattheywereexpectedtomaster.Infactwesaidvery
specifically,Isaid,andIthinkGeorgeechoed(maybenotasdirectly),selectthematerialsthatarerelevanttoyou,toyourowncircumstance.Weexpectpeopletoeachhavereaddifferentthings,becausethere'ssomuchstuff,right?Andwhathappensis,peoplereaddifferentthingsandthenwhen
theyinteractwitheachother,that'swherethenewknowledgeiscreated,wherethelearninghappensbecauseeachpersoncomesintotheconversationwithadifferentperspective,adifferentpointofview,sotherearereadings,thereisanorder,butthereadingsareentirelyoptionalandtheorderismostly
optionalaswell,doesthatmakesense?So,the,theidea...
David:Soundsalotlike(Long?)actually,there'salotofstructurebuteverything'soptional.
18http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/connectivism/
Stephen:LikeLong?
David:Lotsofstructure,everythingoptional.
Stephen:Yeah,exceptthestructureexistedonlybecausewehadtoputitonawebpage.Imean,thestructureisanaccidentalfeatureofthepresentationandnotanessentialfeatureofwhatwewere
tryingtocreate.Whatweweretryingtocreateisthisnetwork,andtheprocess,allweweredoing,wasattemptingtoconnect,andmostlywewereattemptingtoconnectnotbyinstructingpeopleonhowtoconnectbutbydoingitourselvesinanenvironmentwhereotherpeoplecouldtakepartandshare.
David:Somodellingitratherthantalkingaboutit.
Stephen:That'sright.Okay,now,youmaythinkthat'sagoodwayoflearning,youmaynotthinkit'sa
goodwayoflearning,theremaybeotherbetterwaysoflearningthatcomealong,that'sfine,thepointis,isthatthingsthatacttopreservetheexistingstructureoflearningmakethingsliketheConnectivistcourselesslikelyand...
David:D'...
Stephen:...that,that'sreallybadlyargued.(Shortlaugh)Idon'twanttosayitlikethatbecausethat'snot
whatImeanbecausethenI'minthepositionofhavingtodefendthislittlecausalargument,right?Idon'twanttodefendthislittlecausalargumentbecauseit'snotagoodcausalargument,but,butIdowanttosuggestthat,when,whenyoudothingsthathelpentrenchtheexistingmodeloflearningwith
existingcoursesandexistingresourcesliketextbooks,likecourses,youknow,allthesecoursepackages,andsay,thisisthebarwemustsetforlearning,andthisisthethingthatpeoplemustdoinordertoqualifyforfundingor,or,orevenqualifyforbeingallowedtodoit(whichisreallywhatitis,because,
youknow,youpulloffwhatGeorgeandIdidwithverylittlefunding)youknowyoulockyourselvesintothismodelwhichreallyisaveryexpensivewayofdoingit,thismodelofhavingaclass,ofmarching
throughatextbook,ofhavingateacher,ofhavingassignmentsthattheymark,isaveryexpensiveway,thatmodelisexpensive,andsavingtwoandahalfmilliondollarsoffofafivehundredmilliondollarmodeldoesn'treallycutit.
David:OhIagree,that's...
Stephen:Youknow...
David:...Imeanthat'sthefirstsemesteroutofthechutewithonlysixtextbooksand...
Stephen:Yeah,butnonetheless,preservingthatmodelisn'tgoingtosolvetheproblemthatI'mtryingto
address,andtheproblemthatI'mtryingtoaddressisaccesstoeducationforallthosepeoplewhodon'thaveaccesstoityet,notsavingmoneyfor,forlargecommercialinstitutionsthatareofferingittopeoplewhoareabletopaytuition.
David:Ohtheinstitutionsdon'tsavemoney,the,thestudentsdo.
Stephen:Buttheystill,youknow,theyonlysavemoneyifthey'reinthisprogrammeandpayingtuition,so,youknow,youhavetoberichenoughtosavethatkindofmoney.
David:YouknowIwonderif‐ohand,sorry,Iacknowledgeandunderstandthe,thehypothetical
enclosurerisksthatStephenwastalkingabout,Ihaven'tseenthemplayoutineightorsoyearsofworkingwithlicensedstuff,Iwouldn'tworryaboutitalotbutStephenwillworryaboutitalotsoyougetnoconclusiveanswerfromthetwoofus.
Stephen:Butyou'reworkingfromwithintheenclosure,ofcourseyou'renotgoingtoseeit.
David:Right,that'swhatIwasjustabouttosay,insomewaysit'slike,and,andmakingthisargument
doesn'tbodewellforme,butifyouthinkaboutthereformationofthechurchacoupleofcenturiesago,youhadpeopleinsidethechurchworkingtoreformitandthenyouhadpeoplethatjustpunchedoutandsaid,“Forgetit,we'rejustgoingtogodoourownthing”,andyoueventually,youknow,something,
nowthereis,Idon'tknowifyou'dcallitamarket,maybe,maybeecologyisabetterword,butthere'ssomepeoplethataremembersofthischurchandsomethatarewiththatchurch,whatever.
ButsomethingthatIthinkthisdialogueishelpingmeunderstandisI,IthinkI'msomewherebetweenaninformal,internalreformerandhackeroftheexistingsystemwehave.Andyou’remorelikethe
PresbyteriansortheLutheransortheMethodists,“I'mjustgoingpunchoutandgostartsomethingbetter,”kindofapproach,soisthatafaircharacterisation?
Stephen:Ithinkit'safaircharacterisationexceptthatIdon'twanttojustsetupanotherchurch,youknow.ImeanIthinkthat'sreallyimportant,so,Imeanthat'spartofthereasonthis,ofthereformation
argumentis,youknow,allwegotoutofitwasmorechurchesand...
Jeff:YouneedaGermanprincetoprotectyou.
Stephen:AndyouneedaGermanprincetoprotectyou,youknow,andthat,that'snotreally,youknow...
It'smorelikereading,therewasatimewhenonlypeopleinthechurchwereabletoreadand,and
maybeafewselectedfewnoblesprovidedtheyhadallegiance,andreadingwasthesecretgatewaytotheknowledgeoftheothersandallofthat,andifyou'reanaverageperson,yousimplydidn'treadandprobablythebigchangethatLutherbroughttothechurchwas,wasnotLutheranism,butthe
movementofthelanguageofthechurchfromLatintoGerman,andeventuallytoEnglishaswell,themovementand,andthecapacityforpeopletobeabletoreadtheGospelsforthemselves.ItwasalwaysthecasethattheydependedontheprieststoreadtheGospels,right?Andyouhadtohavethis
intercession.
David:Wellandifyouthinktwentyninethousanddollarsforoneninetyninecentsongisaharshpenalty...
Stephen:Yeah,yeah.(Laughs)
David:Okay,thisisatopicIknowalittlebitabout.SothereweretimeswhenjustpossessinganEnglishcopyoftheScriptures...
Stephen:Absolutely.
David:...wouldnotonlycostyouyourlife,life,butyou'dalwaysforfeitland,goodsandlifefromyour
heirs,soyou...
Stephen:Yeah,youloseeverything.
David:...havetheEnglishScriptures,youdie,yourfamilydies,werepothefarm,allthecattle,everything.ImeanyouthinktheDMCAisharsh.
(Laughter)
Stephen:So...
David:It'sgotnothingontheearlychurch.
Stephen:Soyoucanseewhyworkingforwithreformwithinthechurchontheonehandpeoplewouldseetheadvantagesofthat,butontheotherhand,therewasgoingtobeacertainlimittowhatyou
couldaccomplish,youknow,andeventoday,Imeanthere,it'sstillLatin,wellnonotreallyanymoreisit,but,butwasupuntilnottoolongago...
David:Itdependsonwhereyouattend.
Stephen:Yeah,that'sright,.AndIthinklearningisthatwaynow.Comparelearningnowtoliteracyinthepast.Nowyouneedtogotothechurch,akatheuniversity,andhaveyourlearningmediatedforyou,
andwhetherthatmediationtakestheformofacoursepackageoratextbookoraprofessor'slecture,nonethelessthemodelstillisthat,andtherereallyisn'tverymuchtinkeringyoucandowiththemediation,maybeyoucanmakethemediationalittlebitmoreefficient,maybeyoucanmakethe
mediationalittlemoreresponsivetotheneedsofthepeasants,butit'sstillmediation,andwhatweneedistofindawayofmovingbeyondthatbecausemediationisaveryexpensivewayofenablinga
populationtolearnandithasthedangerofbeingusedinthesamewaythatthePopewasused,notsimplyto,tospreadtruthbutalsotospreadpoliticsandpropagandaandtherest.Ithasthepotentialofbeingabused.
David:Sure,everythinghasthepotentialofbeingabused.
Stephen:Youknow,no,notsomuch,but...
David:Isn't,isn'tonlinecontentjustanasynchronistmediation?
Stephen:Wellnow...
David:BecausesomebodyelseisgoingtoproducecontentandI'mgoingtositdownandI'mgoingtousethatcontent,it'snotfreeofpoliticsandbias,amongstotherthingssuddenlyjustbecauseit's
asynchronous.
Stephen:Butnowwearein,nowweareintoamuchmoreinterestingdiscussion,right?BecauseifanOERissomethingthatwaspaidforthroughhundredsofmillionsofdollarsofgovernmentorfoundationmoneyandwascreatedbysomeuniversityprofessorinhisofficeaccordingtosomesetofstandards,
thenyes,it'sexactlythat,it'saunitofmediation,ifontheotherhandanOERisaresourcecreatedbyandformembersofacommunity...
David:Itdoesn'tmediatethelearningprocess?
Stephen:Notinthesameway.Imean...
David:How,how'sthat?
Stephen:Not,wellImeannotremotely,Imeanit'slikeyou'resaying,tojustdrawaparallelofyourargument,I'mcomplainingthattheGospelshavebeenmediatedbecausethey'recomingtomethrough
thelecturesofpriestsorthingslikethat,andI'msaying,reallyweshouldbeabletoreaditforourselves,inourownlanguageandyou'resaying,“Wellisn'tlanguagekindoflikeamediationtoo?”,andwell,yeah,itis...
David:NoI'msayingit's...
Stephen:...butit'sanorderofmagnitudedifferent.
David:I'msayingthattheScripturesarethemediationandwhetheryoutalktoapriestaboutitor
whetheryoumeetwithbunchofotherpeoplelikeyouinBiblestudyandtalkaboutit,that,thatcontentismediation,itwaswrittenbysomebodyatsomepoint,yousitdown,you'restudyingit,you'reeitherhearingitinterpretedbyanexpertoryou'retalkingwithagroupofyourpeersaboutit,butthefocusof
thatwholethingisthepieceofcontent,andwhetherit'sproducedbyaprofessororbyJo‐Bobinwherever,there'sthispieceofcontentnowsittingonmyscreenthatI'mlookingatandI'mhavinga
discussionwithotherpeopleaboutthatcontent'samediating...
Stephen:Butit'saverydifferentthingforyouandyourcommunitytobesittingtheremessingaroundwiththelanguageoftheScriptureitself,andforyoutobesittingthere,takingsomeguy'swordforitthatthisiswhattheScripturesays,twoverydifferentthings,andthesameistrueforopeneducational
resources,ifmembersofthecommunityarecreatingthese,usingthese,sharingthese,doingwhateverwiththese,that'sverydifferent,tohavedirecthandsonaccesstothisknowledge,tothisdomain,verydifferentthandependingonsometrustedexpert,professororwhatevertobesaying,“Thisiswhat
knowledgeinthatdomainis”.
David:Butistheonlydifferencetherewhetheryoutaketheperson'swordforitornot?Oristhattheprimarydifference?
Stephen:If,ifthepersonistrustworthy,right?Well,goodquestion.Iwasgoingsay,ifthepersonistrustworthythenreallyitboilsdowntothesamething.ButIdon'tthinkso,because,Imean,Ithink,the
provenanceoftruthmattersasmuchasthecontent,youknow,beingabletoseeforyourselfisworthmorethanbeingtoldbyatrustedpersonthathesawsuchandsuch...
David:Right,but,but(talkingtogether)...
Stephen:YoumaybelievethatPinbothcasesbutthere'ssomethingdifferent.Seeingitforyourself,evenifyoucometothesamebelief,hasmoreofameaninginyourlifethancomingtothatbelief
throughthemediationofsomeotherperson.
David:Butifyou'vecometothatexperienceoryou'vecometothatconclusionoryou'vedrawnthatmeaningfromapieceofcontent,thenwhetherthatcontentwascreatedbyaprofessionalorbyapeer,thatpieceofcontenthasstillhasstillplayedthatcriticalroleinyourmakingofthatmeaning.
Stephen:Yeah,butit'sthedifferencebetweenonevoiceandathousandvoices,youknow,likethe,the
professorwillusewordsandyourfriendswillusewordsandthosewordsareinbothcasesmediationsofwhateverisoutthere,butyourprofessorhasonepointofviewandyourfriendshaveathousandpointsofviewandevenifthetwomechanismsresultinthesamebelief,themechanismthatresulted
fromathousandeyes,athousandvoicesisgoingtobemorereliable,goingtomeanmorethanthemechanismthatreliesonsetofeyesandonevoiceand,anditneedsmore,notsimplybecauseyouthinkit'smorelikelytobetrue,whatevertheresultingfactis,right,you,youcanbelievethatPjustas
stronglyinbothcases,butinthecaseofthecommunity,youareapartoftheproductionoftheknowledge,thatP,andinthecaseoftheprofessor,youarenotapartoftheproductionofthatknowledge,andconsequently,yourrelationtothatknowledgeisverydifferent,thisknowledge,where
youarepartoftheproduction,alsoservestoempoweryou,thisknowledgemakesyouapassiverecipient.
David:Nowtherearesomeassumptionsthereaboutthekindofinteractionsyouhavewith...
Stephen:Absolutely.Thereareassumptions.Butwe'rebeingwrappedup.
Jeff:It’stimewewrappedup,wedidnotgettoaccreditationandtrans‐substantiationbut...
(Laughter)
Jeff:Weneedtopickupatthreefifteenso,takeabreak,getsomeairandwe'llcontinuethiswonderful
conversation,thankyou,thanks.
David:WellIdidn'tthinkIwasnearthat….
Stephen:Therearelotsofthingswedidn't...
(Laughter)
PartFour‐What'sNext?WhyBother?Segment4(3:15‐4:45)
Recordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley4.mp3
• RatesofOERReuse:IsAlltheTroubleWorthIt?• IsitEverOKnottobeOpen?• WhatNeedstoHappenNextfor/to/withOpenEducation?
Moderator:DaveCormier
DaveCormier:Welcometosessionnumberfour.I’mthemoderatorforsessionnumberfour,mynameisDaveCormier.Inormallygetchosenforthesesituationswhensomebodywantssomeoneto
aggravatesomeoneelse.Iamuniversallyknownasthatkindofaggravatinginfluence.ButI’mgoingtotry,givenagreementfromthefellowsoverhere,thataskforthirtyminutesofthenexthourandabit,totryandaggravatethem,andaskaspecialkindofquestion.
IthinkitwasonSaturdayIgotthepiecesforthispartanditwas“WhataboutOERreuse?”AndIthink
that’smostlyamathematicalquestion,wekindofprettymuchknowtheanswertothatquestion.“Wheredoesitgofromhereandwhydoesitmatter?”Ithoughtitmightbeinterestingtohaveacoupleoffiveminutegoesatthreesuccessivequestions.Thefirstoneis“Lookintothefuture,andimaginethe
mostdystopicsituationpossibleforOER,whatareyouafraidofhappening,ifthisthinggoesthewrongway?”
WhenIthinkaboutthat,Isortofcontextualisethatquestionby“What’sgoingonintheUKrightnowtomymind?”WhichistheBritishgovernmenthasstartedtotalkaboutputtingoutOERinasenseof
raisingEngland’sstatus.Andthere’saconnectiontherethatIfindpotentiallydistracting.Andcertainlythere’sacontrollinginfluencetherethatmaybeoneofthosepotentialdystopicfutures.
Thesecondquestionis“Whatdoyouexpecttohappen?”andthethirdoneis“Imaginethewonderfulfuture,withtheperfectthingthatwillneverreallyhappen,butyou’dreallyliketohavehappen,would
actuallyhappen.”Daviddidtouchonthatalittletinybit,butIwonderifwecouldexplorethatquestionalittlebitfurther.Becausethereareacoupleofothertopicsonthetable,I’mnotaskingfortheentirehour,fifteenminutes,butratherfortwenty,twenty‐two,twenty‐threeminutes.Three,fourfiveminute
piecesfromeachofyou.Andthenyouguyscangetbackandwrapstuffupattheend.Howdoesthatsound?Thatsoundlikefun?
David:Soundslikeyou’redictatingthetermsofourconversation.(smiling)
Dave:I’mjustsuggestingapossiblealternative,inafriendlyopenway.
David:No,soundsgood.
David:Okay.Dystopicfirst.
Stephen:Sogoahead.
David:I’mtryingtodecidewhataretheawful,awfulfuturescenarios.Sooneawfulfuturescenariowouldbe…IthinkitwouldbeanawfulfuturescenarioifOER,ifsomeversionofOER,saythisOERthat
ObamaisfundingnowintheUS,becamesopopularthatitbecamethedefactokindofstandards.There’sonlyonealgebracoursethatanyonereallyevertook.Andeventhoughitwasopen,youdidn’tmesswithitbecauseit’stheonethatwasdesignedbytheexperts.OERsomehowturnedintosomekind
ofanationalcurriculum.That’sadisasterfutureforusIthink.
Isupposeit’s,Iusedthewordecologyearlierintheday,inthesamewaythatIthinkthatwehaveLinuxandOSXandWindowsinanecologyofcompletelyopen,completelyclosed,someclosedstuffbuiltonsomeotherstuffthatwasopen,kindofspreadacrossthecontinuumthere.IseeOERincommercial
content,inaminuteI’mgoingtosayIthinkreallytheyjustkindofbalanceout,andsomepeopleadopttheopenandsomeadopttheclosedandwhatever.
ButIsupposethereissomekindofscenarioequivalenttothenon‐nativepredatorbeingintroduced,thatcomesinanddestroyseverythinginthenaturalenvironment.WhereOERcansomehowputallof
thecommercialpublishing,thecommercialpublishersoutofbusiness.Whichwouldthenhaveanimpactonotherthings,whichwouldthencollapsedownandwould,youknow...StephenhasajobandIhaveajob,butwe’repaidtodoonething,butwegettoproducealotofOERontheside,andjustcallit
partofwhatwedoandwegetourrentpaidanyway.Isupposethere’ssomecatastrophicchainreactionthathappensasOERcannibalisescertainthings,thatmakeitsothatevenStephenandIdon’thavejobs
anymore.Andwe’releftwithoutrealcommercialalternatives,andwithoutalotofpeoplethatcanactuallycreateOER,andthewholethingjustcompletelycollapsesinonitselfintoablackholesomehow.Sortofsimilartowhatmayormaynotbehappeningwithnewspapersrightnow,sopeople
aresiphoningoffnewspapercontentordoingwhateveryouwanttocallit.Ifthenewspapersactuallyallwentoutofbusiness,wouldthebloggersbeabletoreallygenerateenoughnewsoftheirown?Insteadofjustpointingtoothers?Ifthatcollapsed,andthenthisbecameunstable,andthenitcollapsedaswell,
thenwhatareyouleft,startingoverfromscratchagain.Icanimagine…you’reaskingforworstcasescenario.Icanimagineonelikethatintheworldofeducationalcontent.
Dave:That’ssuitablydystopic.Thankyou.IknowthiswillbeastretchforyouSteven,canyouimaginedystopic?
David:AndI’vetakentheeasyonessofar.
Stephen:Yeah,he’stakentheeasyones.Imean,‘oneOERforall’isprobablyasbad‘asoneringforall,’19youknow.Sothatobviouslyisaprettybadfuture.Therearevariationsonthatbadness,ifyoucan
believeit.Becauseyouknow,justlikethedictatorship,whereyouhaveonerulerforallright,youcanhavebenigndictatorshipsandyoucanhavetrulyhorribledictatorships,andtheneveryshadeinbetween.AndsowecanimagineaversionofoneOERforallwherethepurposesofthatOERare
genuinelyevil.Youknow,whereit’snotsimplyoneOERforall,butoneOERina1984‐ishsense,wherethepurposeofeducationbecomesnotlearningandedification,anddevelopmentofyourownpersonalgood,butrathersubserviencetothestate,orsomecorporaterepresentativethereof.Youknow,the
sacrificeofyourowninterestforthegoodsofthemany,asdefinedasthegoodoftheonepersonwho’sinchargeofeverything,youknowwhatImean.SoImean,andthisiswhywequiterightlyareafraidofoneOERforall.It’snot,Imeanit’snotanumberthing,it’snotthatonenessisinherentlybad;it’sjust
thatwhenthere’sonlyone,whenitgoesbad,itreallygoesbad,youknow.Andthere’snowayout,anditcangosouthinahurry.SoIthinkthere’sthat.
Dave:IsgoingsouthareferencetotheUS?
Stephen:No,goingsouth…Butitcouldbe,itcouldbe.AlthoughweliketothinknowthattheUnitedStateshasturnedandisgoingnorth.Althoughthat’snotnecessarilyagoodthingeither,now,never
mind.
Soletmefocusontheotherdystopianfuture,becauseit’stheonewhereallthepublishersareputoutofbusiness.Andit’stheonewhere,likewithnewspapers,they’recannibalisedbytheblogs.Andthatwasrepresentedasabadthing.Andyouknow,theworldwherethesepublishersandthesenewspapers
aretheoneswhoactuallyprevail,andtheirviewoftheworldbecomescurrent,seemstometobethebadthing.
Overtime,andtherearesomesciencefictionbooksthatdealwiththis,andforthelifeofmeIcan’t
rememberatitle–I’vebeentrying‐heremoreandmoreandmoreofourcommonordinaryeverydaylivesbecomecommercialised.Somuchsothattheverywordsthatweuseinourconversationareinfactownedbyconsortia.Andsoformetobespeakinglikethis,Iwouldactuallyhaveapocketmonitor
thatrecordseverywordthatIsay,anddeductsanamountoutofmybankaccounttopaytotheownerofthatword,fortheuseofthatword.
Andnotjustwords.Wordsrepresentsimplythefirstelementofthissystemofpropertyownership.Butalsosequencesofwords.SoifIusedthephrase“sequencesofwords”,IhavetopayMicrosoftforthe
useoftheword“sequences”becausetheyobviouslyownsequences.“Of”,thatgoestoCocaCola.And“words”goestoWebster’s,right.ButthenIhavetopayinadditionforthephrase“sequencesofwords”IhavetopayAppleforthat.Thatwouldbeworse.
Andit’sworsebecausewhatitmeansis,youknow,theverycapacityforthoughtthatImayhaveispre‐
owned.Youknow,Icannothaveanythingthatisnotalreadyownedbysomeoneelse.Andit’snotsimplythatIhavetopaythemmoney.It’sthatbecausetheyownthesewords,notonlycantheycharge
19http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Ring
memoneyforthem,buttheycanregulatetheappropriateuseofthosewords.Solike“sequenceofwords”,thatphrase,therewouldbeattachedtomyuseofthatphrase“sequenceofwords”,aclick‐
throughlicenceifyouwill,thatallowsmetouse“sequenceofwords”onlyincontextswhereIamreferencingorsupportingthecommercialuseofthephrase“sequencesofwords”,andnotinanywaycriticisingorsuggestingsomealternativetotheownershipofthatphrase“sequencesofwords”.
Andyoumightthinkthat’sprettysilly,butthat’stheAppleAppstorenow.Soit’snotthatfarfetched.I
thinkthat’sworseeventhanoneOERforall.IfwehadoneOERforall,butitweretrulyandgenuinelyshareableandwecoulddowhateverwewantedwithit,thatwouldn’tbeasbadasthisworldinwhicheverythingisowned.Andthenfinally,whatwouldbereallybadwouldbetogobacktothatworldin
whichourunderstandingoftheworldiscreatedforusstrictlyandsolelybypublishersandnewspapers.It’snotthatfar,it’snotthatlongagothatthatwasourworld.AndI’moldenoughtorememberit.
David:I’mnot.
Stephen:No.AndIwasactuallygoingtosaysometimeduringthesession,youknowweweregoingtosaywe’rebeingveryciviltoeachother,butthat’sbecauseI’molderthanyou.
David:Respectforelders.
Stephen:No.You’regoingtooutliveme,whichmeansIhavetobenicetoyou,ormyreputationwillbe
trashedafterI’mgone.
David:Putdowns.IrememberIcanusethatone.
Stephen:Butyouknow,Imean,theGulfofTonkinincidentoryouknow,alloftheserealitiesthatwerecreatedforusandshapedforusbymedia,andthenpresentedtousastruth,orattheveryleastasobjectiverepresentationsofthestateofaffairsoftheworld.Which,asweknownow,turnedouttobe,
toalargedegree,false.Eveninthisdecade,therepresentationofthingslikeweaponsofmassdestructioninIraq,right?Imean,thatwaswhatwewerebeingtold,period,endofstory.Ifyoudidn’t
believethat,youwereacommunistoranAlQaedasympathiserorsomethinglikethat.Certainlynoonetobetrusted,muchlessallowedtopublish.Sothatwouldbeworse,ifourknowledgeoftheworldcamefromthesesourcesthewayitusedto?Canyouimaginethiscenturybeinglikethelast?Likewereally,
reallydon’twantthat.
David:Atthesametimeifthe,ifyoujustturnthetablesandyoureplace…ifinthenameofdiversityofperspectiveanddiversityofviewpoint,westompedoutnewspapersormagazinesortelevisionorwhatever,Iwouldthinkthateventhoughyoucanarguerathereasilythattheperspectivesthey
representarebiasedinonedirection,orbiasedinanother.
Stephen:Orboth.
David:Whatever.Both.Idothinkthatthey’revaluablecontributionstotheconversation,aslongasyouareparticipatinginaconversationjustnotwatchingFoxnewsallnightlong.SoifOER,ifyouendupinaworldwhereonlyjustlikeoneoddortwooddguyswerejusttalkingaboutstuffandyoudidn’thave
biggerpeopledoingmorein‐depththings,regardlessofwhatbiastheybroughttoit,Ithinkthatwouldbeaworseworldthanwehaverightnow.
Dave:JonStewartisverywellservedbymassmedia.
David:JonStewart’sgoingtobepresidentintenyears.
Dave:Ithoughthewasalready.
David:Official.
Stephen:Afterhelosestheshowandhe’slookingfornewwork.It’sgoingtobethebesthecanfind.
Dave:Iwanttogetyouguysbackontrackeventuallytotheend,wrapuptheotherconversation.So
maybeit’seasierifweaskthethirdquestionnext,aboutthespeculativeawesomefuture.Andthengobacktoexpectationsofthefutureandallowyoutowrapupthecoupleofquestionsthatwerelaggingfromearlier.
Stephen:CanIsayjustonething?
Dave:Sure.
Stephen:Thankyou.Ithinkthisisareallyimportantlinktodrawjustatthispointintime.Thedystopian
futurethatIdepictedwherecompaniesownallofourwords.I’vesaidonanumberofoccasions,andotherpeoplehavemadethesamepointaswell,thatourlanguageoftodayisamultimedialanguage,thatpeoplecommunicatetodaynotonlyinwordsanymore,butinthesemultimediaartefacts.These
multimediaartefacts,picturesofducks,arethewordsthatpeopleusetocommunicatewitheachother.So,anditistheownershipofthesewords,thesemultimediawords,thatwearedebatingatthispoint.Andsothat’s,thedystopianfuturemightseemreallyfarfetched,thatyouhavetopayforeveryuseof
yourword,butifthewordisanimage,nowthatjustisthesortofschemethat,youknow,AssociatedPressforexamplerightnowishatching.Whereyouknow,youusetheirphrases,youusetheirpictures,
you’regoingtobemonitoredandcharged.
David:That’sthedangerofthesemanticweb.
Stephen:Itis,seriously.Everythingispartofthegreatconversation,andeverypartofthegreatconversationisownedbysomeone.Andthatsomeoneisnotyou.Sorry,Ijust,Ineededtothrowthatin,becauseweneedtounderstandwordsinawidercontext.Becauseotherwisetheargumentseemsreally
absurd–whoownswords?Butthat’swhatdidworkinthepast,andthat’sexactlywhatpeoplearetryingtobreakaboutthefuture.SorryIjust…I’mdone.
David:Youhavetogofirstontheperfectfuturevision.
Stephen:Me?
David:Please.Iwentfirstonthelastone.Ibetneitherofushaveactuallyspentverymuchtimethinkingaboutthis.
Stephen:Iactually…
Dave:IaskedbecauseI’vebeenfollowingtheconversationbetweenyouguysforyears.It’sjustoccurredtomethat,havingthehappyconversationbetweeneachothermaybeoneyou’venever,ever
heardbefore.AndIthoughtitmightbeinteresting.
David:That’swhatI’msaying.
Stephen:Imeantherearedifferentperfectfutures,right.There’smyperfectfuture,oneinwhichIliveforever.
(laughter)
Dave:Youcouldmakethathappenifyoureallywantedto.It’sinyourcontrol.
Stephen:Yeah,andthenthere’stheperfectfutureofsocietyasawhole.OneinwhichwealloutliveIdon’tknow…IwasgoingtosayFrankSinatra.It’sbeenalongday.
David:Yeah,it’sgettinglate.
Stephen:Butno,ifIhadtocharacteriseitinaphrase,I’dwimpoutandquoteJohnStuartMill,asIhave
already,“Eachofuspursuingourowngoodinourownway,insuchawaythatwedonothinderotherspursuitoftheirowngoodintheirownway.”Whatdoesthatmean?Imeanformethat’saworldofmaximalexperience,maximalenjoymentoflife.Aworldinwhichwe’renotstrugglingforsurvival
anymore,butratherweareconcerned,ifwedefinegoodinthisway,tobecomethemostofwhatwecanbe.Whateverthatis,whateverwethinkthemostof.
Andtherewillbepeopleoutthere,andIcelebratethemforthis,whodefinethatasdrinkingthemostbeertheypossiblycan.Andthat’sokay.Becausetherewillbeotherpeoplewhodothesamethingby
tryingtobethefastesttheypossiblycan.Orgothefurthest,orthinkthedeepest,orsolveFermat’slasttheorem(exceptthat’sbeendone20,becausesomebodyactuallydiddefinethatastheirowngoodin
theirownway).Soit’saworldofself‐determination.It’saworld,wellit’saworldoffreedombasically.
AndIseeopeneducationresources,Iseealltheseresourcesastherichexpressivelanguageandtapestryinwhichwemanifestthisfreedom,inwhichwemanifestourselves.Inwhichweprojectourselves,ourexperiences,ourvalues,ourbeliefs,toourfriendsorfamily,totherestoftheworld.To,
youknow,asmuchoraslittleaswewant.SoIseethisasaworldinwhichweareimmersedandengaged,youknow,asfullyaspossibleinallthepotentialpossibilitiesofexperience,ofbeinghuman.AndIknowthatyouaskedforautopia,soyougetthatkindofutopiawhenyoupushmeonit.You
askedmetogofirst.
David:Istilldon’tknowwhattosay.Iwasstallingbyaskingyoutogofirst.IfIanswerthequestionofwhat,whattheutopiawouldlooklike,Iwillendupwaxingspiritualveryquickly.Soforthebenefitofeveryoneintheroom,I’lljustpassoverthatpartofit.Butwhat’stheutopianendallforOERorforthe
20http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/proof/wiles.html
openeducationmovementorsomethinglikethat,isstillsomethingIdon’tknowtheanswerto.OhI’mgoingtototallycopoutwithagreatquote.
Dave:YoucanquoteStephennow...
David:No.I’mnotgoingtogotoMill,I’mgoingtogotoLinusTorvaldsactually.So,sointalkingabout
thedesignofsoftware,Linussaidthat,said“Don’teverthinkthatyoucandesignsomethingbetterthanwhatyougetfrommassivelyparalleltrialanderrorwithafeedbackcycle.Becauseit’sgivingyourintelligencewaytoomuchcredit.”
Stephen:Yeah.
David:AndIknowtherearepeopleintheworldthathaveagoalofthewaythattheythinktheworld
oughttolookandthewayitoughttowork.Andtheywork,theyworkthemselvessillytowardthisgoalthattheythinkisthisusefulthing.I’mgoingtoendupwaxingslightlyreligiousanyway,so…
Stephen:Goforit,Idon’tmind.
David:I’maMormon,sothat’swhatyougetwhenI’matthefrontoftheroom.MyapproachtolifeisverymuchIrolloutofbedeverydayandwhateveritfeelslikeGodwantsmetodothatdayiswhatI’m
goingtodo.Andifitmeanschanginguniversities,orchangingfieldsorchangingmyresearchdirection,whatever.WhateverfeelstomelikeisthethingthatwillbemostusefultohimiswhatI’mgoingtodo.
AndsoIthinkthatwayofthinking,combinedwiththisviewofLinus’sabout“Don’ttrytohavethisendplanthatyoudriverelentlesslytoward.”Buttrytofosteralot.Beopentoallthesepossibilitiesofthings
thatcanhappen.Andpeopletrythingsandsomewillfailandsomewillsucceed.Andifyoumakethatexperimentationlowcostenoughandlowriskenough,thenmorepeoplecanengageinit.Andthemorepeopletry,themorewillfail.Andthemorefail,themoreitwillsucceed.
Andtome,OERisinterestingbecause,asaplatform,Ithinkitlowersthecostanditlowerstheriskto
differentexperimentsineducation,withdifferentmodelsof…youknowJimleft,blowinguptheuniversity,anddoingsomethingcompletelyontheoutside.Wellthatwouldbereallyexpensivetodoif
youdidn’tjusthappentohaveallofMITopencoursewarebootstrappedforyou,orsomethinglikethat.SoinasmuchasOERwouldfacilitatealloftheseexperiments,thevastmajorityofwhichwouldfail,someofthemwouldbereallyuseful.
Andwe‐okayI’mnotgoingtospeakforyou‐I’veseenthings,I’veseenOERsthatI’vemadeopen,the
mostinterestingthingshaveeverbeendonewiththemwerethingsInever,everanticipated.Butthat’swhathappenswhenyou’reopen.SoformetheutopiangoalforOERisthatOERactuallyprovidesthislowrisk,lowcost,veryinvitingplatformforlotsofexperimentsandlotsoffailure.Whichleadstothen
success,whichturnsouttobeprogresstowardaccesstoeducationforeveryone.Whichthengoes‐youknow,justbeingeducatedisn’ttheendgoal;there’sotherideasabouthaving,livingthekindoflifethatyouwanttolive,andthingslikethat.ThereisasayingthatifyouwanttomakeGodlaugh,tellhimyour
plan,youknow.WhichIlike.Ithinkthat’saJewishsaying.I’dbehappytobecorrectedbysomeoneintheTwitterverseorsomething.That’sverymuchmyapproachtoit.
I’mgoingtokeepdoingexperiments.Thevastmajorityofthemaregoingtofail.MaybetheopenconduitthingistheonethinginmylifeI’llgetright.Orthatwasuseful,youknow,thatmadea
contribution.ButI’mgoingtokeeptryingbecauseit’sfun,andit’swhatIdo.AndifOERmakesitpossibleforlotsofpeopletodothat,thenweeventuallymakesomestepsforward,thenIthinkthat’sthebestwecanaskfor.
Stephen:Yeah,Ithinkthat’sactuallyapointofcommonality.Andthecommonalityistherecognition
thatwe’renotgoingtobeabletomanageororganiseorplanourwaytothisfuturestate,whateverithappenstobe.AndnotonlyGodlaughs,butnaturelaughswhenyoutrytoplan.BecauseImean,there’sacertainsenseinwhichit’simpossible,therearesomanythingsthatcouldhappen.Andthere’s
acertainsense,amoreimportantsensethattheactofplanningisatthesametimeanactoffoolingourselvesintobelievingthatwehaveacausalagencyandindeedanimportanceinthecourseofhistorythatwedon’tinfacthave.
I’mveryinfluencedrightatthismomentbecauseI’vebeenreadingWarandPeace21.AndI’malmost
doneWarandPeace,whichisoneofthesethingsIneverdidplanwouldactuallyhappenbutitlookslikeit’sgoingtohappen.AndoneofthethemesofWarandPeaceyouknow,ofcourseWarandPeaceisabouttheNapoleonicWarsandallofthat.AndNapoleoncausedthis,Napoleoncausedthat.And
Tolstoylooksatitandsaysyouknow“WhatcausedtheinvasionofRussia?WasitjustNapoleonsayingoneday‘I’mgoingtoinvadeRussia’?”Wellno,obviouslynotbecausealltheindividualpeople,thehundredsofthousandsofmeninhisarmyeachhadtohavesomemotivationformarchinginthatarmy
andbeingpartofthatinvasion.Anditisnotpossibletoevenimaginethefullscopeofthathundredthousandsetsofmotivations.Imean,Tolstoystruggleswithadozen,andtakesalmostathousandpagesjusttocoveradozenofthesepeopleandtheirmotivations,muchlessahundredthousand.Sowe
cannotpossiblyimaginethatwecanplanoutthisfuturesociety.Whichmeans,asyousay,wehavetotrymanythingsandfailcheap.AndactuallyTerryAndersonandRandyGarrisonhaveawholetheoryof
organisationaldevelopmentthattheyadvancedalongthisideaof,youknow,beingabletofailcheaply22,andhaving…
A2:…failfast.
A3:…andfailfast.Sothatmeansthat,youknow,themoreorganised,themorestructured,themoresetupthesethingsarethatwe’recreating,themorelikelyitisthatwe’regoingtofailexpensiverather
thanfailcheap.SoImeanabigpartofthepicturethatIhaverevolvesaroundthat.It’slikeIjusthaveamistrustinthesetheoriesoforganisation,thesetheoriesoflearningthatsay“We’regoingtomanageourwaytosuccess.We’regoingtomanageourwaytoaneducatedpopulation.Wearegoingtodoit
foryou.Justgiveusenoughmoneyandwewillhaveaplan,right.”Andweknowthroughhistorythat…
21http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/260022http://www.extension.usask.ca/CJUCE/articles/v25pdf/2511.pdf
eventhingsliketheinvasionofRussiafail.Andifyoucan’tdothat…wellIshouldn’tsayitlikethat,butyouknowwhatImean…
David:Can’teveninvadeRussia!What’sinterestingisthatlineofthinking,whichIthinkwehavein
common,leadsyoutothatconclusion.Theconclusionitleadsmetois,Ican’tseefarenoughintothefuture,(a)becausetherearesomanyvariablesandbecause(b)Idon’treallyunderstandwhatIthinkGod’splanformeallthewaydowntheroadis.WhatIcanseeiskindofthenextdoorthatopenstome.
Youknow,thenextopportunitytodosomething.Andyouknow,Itrytotakethoseopportunitiesandthatresultsinmetaking,youknow,whatIwouldcharacteriseaskindofpragmatic,withinthesystemkindofhackishapproachestotryingtomakeprogressfrominside,becausethat’sthenextopportunity
thatpresentsitselftome.That’swhatlookslikecouldbedone,andsoyouknow…that’stheconclusionthatitleadsmeto.Butitleadsyoutoaverydifferentone.
Stephen:Yeah,becauseIseethoseascoursecorrectionsintheTitanicaftertheiceberg.SorryIdon’tmeanto…butsometimesthesephrasesjustcometome.
David:No,you’reallowedtobeaspessimisticaboutthat‐notthatyou’reapessimistingeneral‐about
thefutureofformaleducationasyouwant.Ithinkitcontinuestobeavaluablepartofamoredynamiceco‐systeminthefuture.Ithinkit’sworthdoingwhatwecantosave,becauseIthinkitmakesavaluablecontribution.
Stephen:Butthere’sadifferencebetweensaying“Ican’tmanagethefuture”,and“Icanknownothing”.
Andwecouldmessaroundwithdifferentmeaningsoftheword“know”,butIwon’tgetintothat,becausewe’vealreadydonesemanticsandtheology;wecanleaveepistemologyoutofthisfortoday.But,butwhatwecanknowinapragmaticeverydaysortofwayis,wecanhavesomesenseof…howdo
Iwanttoputthis?Imean,ifyouwerebuildingabridge,youwouldprobablybuildyourbridgebasedonfairlysimpleNewtonianmechanics,right,forcesandstressesandmaterials,propertiesandthingslike
that.Andalthoughyoucouldn’tseeeverythingthereistoknowaboutthebridge,youknow,willitbeusedto,Idon’tknow…
David:…invadeRussia.
Stephen:…invadeRussia,orwillitbeusedtosendRussianwheattoFrance,whoknows,right?Nonetheless,youcanstillcomeupwithsomeideaaboutbuildingbridges,andhowtobuildabridge
thatwilllast,versushowtobuildabridgethatwillcollapse,youknow.Dependingonyourintention,youmightwantoneortheother.
AndIthinkthesameistrueoforganisationsandstructuresandsocieties.AndIthinkthattherearecorollariestothestatementthat“Wecan’tmanageourwaytothefuture”.Weneedmanyvoices,
thingslikethat.Ithinkthatwecanstructure…oratleastdothesmallthingsthathelpstructureoursystems,oursocialsystemsandourinstitutions,insuchawaythattheydon’tdependonsomebodydoingthisplan.
Asimpleexample:courses.Openeducationalresources.Ifyou’rebuildingopeneducationalresources,andyouwantthemtobere‐used,doyoubuildsomethingreally,reallycomplexandveryspecific,ordo
youbuildsomethingfairlygeneralandnon‐specific?Andyoualreadyknowtheanswertothatquestion,becauseyouwroteapaperaboutit.23Themorecomplex,themorespecific,themoretightlydefinedtheresourcethatwe’rebuilding,thelesslikelywe’regoingtouseit.
David:If,andthisisveryimportant,ifitdoesn’thaveanopenlicence.Ifitdoeshaveanopenlicence,
nowthatcomplex,veryspecificthingiswideopen.Andit’ssomething,sothisisatenyearoldlearningobject,sorry,forthoseofyoujustjoiningusathome.Ifthisresourceisveryspecificandverycontextualisedandtalksaboutlastnight’sFriendsepisodeorwhathappenedonLostorsomething,put
inthisveryspecificcontext.AndIdon’thavepermissiontomakeanychangestoit.
AndthiscomesbacktomyOERasalearningobject,plusanopenlicence.IfIdon’thavepermissiontodoanythingwithit,thenIlookatthat,andtheoddsofitbeingperfectformeareverylow,soIpassonit,justpuntonit.Butifyougiveanopenlicence,thenyoucanaddallthisflavourofthetelevisionshow
andthisandwhatthecurrenteventswerewhenithappened.AndIcansay“Notsomuchofthecartoonfoxes,mykidswouldprefercartoonokapis”.Mydaughter’sanutforokapis24.
Stephen:AndIdon’tevenknowwhattheyare.
David:Theresweetheart,Isaidokapisforyou.They’rerelatedtothegiraffe.
Stephen:Okay.
David:Anyway,Icantakethefoxesout,putokapisinandshewouldlearnRubylikeamadman,becauseitwouldbesomethingcoolforher.Thatpaperthattalksabouthowyoucan’tusethingsthatarereally
specificwaswrittenbyme,authorofoneof,youknow,opencontentlicences,justassumingthatyoucanneverchangeanything–youhadtouseitthewayyoufoundit.Nowwhenyouaddtheopen
licence,itchangeseverything.
Stephen:Nowlet’sconceptualisethat.Ilovedoingthat.Because,now,whatisoneoftheseresources?AndI’mmentioningthis,I’mgoingthisway,becauseIwanttobringinthecontextofmixinglicences.Becausewehaven’taddressedthatatall.
David:AndIhaveonequestionIreallydowanttoaskbeforewe’redone.SoI’mgoingtoholdontothat,
dothenextonefirst.
Stephen:Allright,so…BecausewecouldlookatWhy’sGuideasasingleundifferentiatedentity,inwhichcasealicencethatappliestothewholemust,bydefinition,applytoeverypart,right.Butthewayyou’vejustdescribedit,andIthinkthisistrue,weshouldn’treallythinkofitasoneindividual,one
singleentity,asabunchofthingsbroughttogether.Bitsofwhichcanbeswappedoutasneeded.ReallyWhy’sGuideis,youknow,firstparagraph,secondparagraph,image,anecdote,soonandsoforth.Allof
23http://cnx.org/content/m11898/latest/24http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okapi
thesethingscombined.Thethingasawhole,justaswithanassemblageofwords,hasanidentity,itmayhavealicenceattachedtoit,butthatlicencedoesnotapplytoeachindividualwordinthe
document,nordoesitapplytoeachindividualentity,picture,whateverinthedocument.
SoIthinkweneedtothinkofthesethings,youknow,theseresourcesthatweputtogether,notassingle,undifferentiatedwholes,butascollections,whereit’stheorganisationofthesepartsthatmayhavealicenceattachedtoit.Butthatlicencedoesnotnecessarily,andshouldnotapplytothe
individualparts.
Ifthat’strue,thatfirstofallgivesmethe‘words’thatIneedformyconversationforustohaveinordertodevelopasalearningcommunity.Becauseeachoneofthesepartsnowconstitutesawordinthatconversation,andaguidelikeWhy’sGuideissomebodysayingsomethingwiththesethings.Butalsoit
addressesthequestionofmixinglicences,becauseitdoesn’tmatterifthepicturehasalicenselike‘non‐commercial’andthefirstparagraphhas,youknow,whatever.Itdoesn’tmatterbecausethelicencedoesn’tapplytothoseparts–itappliestothewhole.Doesthatmakesense?Isaythatwhenitbeganto
trailoff.
David:Ithinkthere’sapossibleworldinwhichitmakessense.Doesthatmakesense?
Stephen:Ifyou’reRobertStalnaker25itmakessense.
A2:...orifyou’reTedNelson26.Ithinkifyoureallywantaworldinwhicheachparagraphandeachlicenceandeachwhatever,hasitsowncopyrightattachedtoit,andyou’renot…
Stillifyoutakeabunchofthingsandputthemtogethertoproducesomethingnew,thatnewthingthatyouproducedisathing.Andnowit’sgoingtobecopyrightedandyou’regoingtohavetotalkabout
howyouwanttolicenseit,becausethat’sjustthewayitworks.Butthatdoesn’tmeanthatthelicenceforthewholethinghas…youcansayyouknowthisparticularsequenceofthings,thisorganisation,this
wayofdoingthingshasacertainlicence.Butifyoulookdowninsideit,theindividualpartsmayhavevaryinglicencesorsomethinglikethat.Ifyoureally,ifyoudidn’twanttocombinethemintoawhole.
Stephen:Yeah,Isee,it’swhenwetreatthesedigitalresourcesasthoughtheywerephysicalthingsthatyougetintotrouble.Whenyoutrytogatheritalltogether,andproducethispackagethatyou’llputon
theshelf,that’swhenyougetintotroubleforlicences.Butyouknow,ifwejustliveinaconnectedworld,thenyoucanassembleyourresourcethewayGeorgeandIassembledourclass–wedidn’tmoveprettymuchanydigitalresourceanywhere,wejustlinkedtothem.Andsowhenyoujustlinktothem,
theresourcesitswhereitsits,ithasthelicencethatithas,andtheonlylicencethatwehaveappliestothesetoflinks,ifyouwill.Nowit’swhenwetrytogatherthingsinandtreatitasthoughitwereaprintresourceandhastobepackagedandboundandshippedoutincontainersthatwegetintolicence
problems.
David:I’llagreewiththat,butno,I’llagreewiththatand…
25http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stalnaker26http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson
Stephen:Iseeyou’vebeenthroughtheprogramme.
David:Thankyou.AndIthinktherearetimeswhenitisvaluabletopullthingstogetherandgatherthemtogetherandpresenttheminaunifiedpackage.Soincaseswhenthat’strue,thenyouhavetodealwith
licencecompatibilityissues.
Incaseswhereit’snot,youjustlinktoeverything,andifthenavigationisdifferentandthecolourisdifferentandthisishere,butit’sontherighthandsideonthispageandthelefthandside…Ifalearnerhasenoughsparecyclestonavigateallthedifferentnavigationschemesandlookforthingsherewhen
theywerethereonthelastpageandwhatever,thenyou’regreat.ButIthinkifyou’reinasituationwheresomuchisbeingdemandedcognitivelyofthestudentalready,thatalackofuniformityintheinterfacemakesthemthinkenoughthatitdistractsmeaningfullyfromwhatthey’retryingtolearn,then
Ithinkyoudohavetodealwithpullingthingstogether,puttingtheminaunifiedpackage,unifyingthenavigationprocessandtryingtosimplifythatforthem.
I’mnotsayingthatyoualwayshavetodothis,butI’msayingthattherearesomecaseswhereyou’llwantto.Andinthosecases,youwillhavetodealwithlicencecompatibilityissues.Buttheopencourses
thatI’vedone,I’vedoneexactlythesamewayyouhave–I’veleftthingswheretheyare,theyhavethelicencestheyhave,Iproduceasetoflinkswithannotations.Lookforthiswhenyouread,you’regoingtoanswerthesequestionswhenyou’redone.Thathasalicenceofitsownanditdoesn’toweanything
tothatcontentthat’sstillouttherelicensedthewaythatit’slicensed.Soitcanbeavoided,butitprobablycan’talwaysbeavoidedwell.
Stephen:I’mnotsuchabelieverinthethesisthat“thereisalimitedcognitiveloadthatthestudentcanhandlesowehavetogetridofalltheextraneousstuffandfocusrightinonthecontent.”
David:Soyoubelieveinunlimitedcognitivecapacity?
Stephen:No,Idon’tbelievethatfocussinginonthecontentsomehowlowersthecognitiveload.Ithinkthatthewholeactofgettingtothecontent,thedifferentways,ispartofthelearning.Rememberweweretalkingearlieraboutwhatisittoknowasubject?Andweweretalkingabout,andyouactuallysaid
it,youhavetoknowwhatthewordsmean,youhavetoknowhowthey’reused?Allofthatisthedifferentkindsofnavigation,right.Yougoseetheseresourcesintheirnaturalenvironment,ifyouwill.Thatislearningaboutthedomain,theseresourcesintheirnaturalenvironmentistheseresources
presentedastheywouldbefoundbypractitionersinthedomain.Thatispartofthelearning.
David:It’spartofthelearning,butIwouldsayit’sconstructirrelevant.Ifyou’retryingtolearnmathandalso…sooneofthethingsIhateisyougetthesewordproblemsinmathandifyoudon’treadEnglishverywell,thennowyou’remarkeddownonmath.AndyourabilitytoreadEnglishreallyisconstruct‐
irrelevant,ifwhatIwanttounderstandishowgreatamasteryofmathyouhave.SonowifpartofmysuccessinbeingabletonavigatethewebcomesintomygradefortrigormygradeforUShistory,myabilitytonavigatethewebreallyisnotrelevanttomymasteryofhistory.
Stephen:You’vejustsketchedaworldviewinwhichyouhaveagradefortrigoragradeforworldhistory.Withsomeveryfewexceptions,nobodygoesouttolearntrigjusttolearntrig,right.I’vestarted
itfourtimes,and…Thatwasajoke.
David:Youfinallygotitrightfourtimes.
Stephen:Ifinallypassedit.No,actuallyIpasseditallfourtimes.ActuallyIpasseditthefirstthreetimesandthefourthtimeIstudieditwasonmyownandthat’swhenIunderstoodit.Soit’sactuallyagoodstory,butit’sirrelevanttothiscurrentcontext.
But,Imean,againwhatisanunderstandingofmath?Isitthisunderstandingofthispureformalismina
context‐freedomain?Independentofwordproblemsorlanguageorusageoranythinglikethat?Maybethereisasensetobemadeofapersonwhoselatercareerinlifeisgoingtobethatofapuremathematician,inwhichthatmightconstituteunderstandingofmath.Butthey’dstillhavetobeableto
communicatewithothermathematicians.Ormaybenot,they’remathematicians.ButyouknowwhatImean.
Fortherestofus,understandingmathjustisbeingabletodothewordproblems.Becausethewordproblemsareallthereisofmathtous.Andwithoutthewordproblems,therestofitiscompletely
superfluous.Youwouldn’tcare,youdon’tcareabouttherelationbetweenxandybeingthirtymilesanhourandfortymilesanhour,unlessthere’stwotrainsheadedstraighttowardseachother.That’swhenitreallymatters.YouseewhatImean?
Sowe’vetakenthesedomainsofknowledgeandslicedthemanddicedtheminwaysthatarevery
advantageoustothepublishingindustry,butnotadvantageoustoourcomprehendingwhatitisthatweneedtocomprehend.Wedon’tneedtoknowtrigonometryproperly‐so‐called,weneedtopreventtrainsfromcrashingintoeachother.Wedon’tneedtoknowgeometry,weneedtoknowhowmuch
mulchtoputontopofourgarden.Thosearethethingsthatweneed.
Andthecontexthere,youknow,thecontextofthelearning,inmymind,oughttobeyouknow,thelearningofhowtomanagetrains,orthelearningofhowtomanageagarden.Andthemathisjust
incidentaltothat.Thetakingofthismathematicalcontentandarrangingitintotheselargepredefined,almostindivisiblestructuresactuallymakesithardertogoaboutdoingthethingsthatwewanttodo.“Ijustwanttorunagarden.”“Wellyouhavetotakefortyhourcourseinmath.”Itmakesnosense.
Andtogobackeventothediscussionthatwehadearlier,we’regoingtotakethiscourse,thefortyhour
courseinmath,ninetypercentofwhichwewillneveruse,atleastnotinthenexttenyears.Andwhichthereforewillbecompletelyforgotten,andthenwe’regoingtocallthatefficient.Soit’snotmakingsense.It’snotefficient.Toalargedegreeit’snotlearning.
David:Sodoyouthinkaboutliberalartseducationasbeingefficientorlearning?Becauseitseemsto
methathere’ssomethingverybroadrangingwhichmayormaynothaveanydirectapplicabilitytoyourlife,butIwouldexpectyouwouldbeaproponentforverybroadranging,lotofphilosophyandliteratureandsomethingelse.
Stephen:Well,let’stakeWarandPeace.WarandPeaceisprettyrelevanthere.I’mreadingWarandPeace.I’mnotreadingWarandPeacetorememberit,whichisagoodthing.I’mreadingWarandPeace
becauseIwanttoimmersemyselfinthisexperience.Sotheimmersingmyselfinthisexperience,thatisthethingIvalue.That’stheliberalartsthingthatIvalue.Andthe“content”thatIgetoutofWarandPeace,isn’tsomethingthat’sgoingtobecontainedinWarandPeace.It’sgoingtobewhatbecomesof
meafterIreadWarandPeace.Soyouknow,wetalkaboutefficiency,saywell“IsWarandPeacethemostefficientwaytogetto,well…”
David:Whateveritis,theanswer’sno.
Stephen:Wellwhat…
David:Athousandpages.
Stephen:Wellnoteventhat.Thequestiondoesn’tevenmakesense.BecauseIdon’tknowwhattheresultsoftheexperiencewillbe.Itdoesn’tmakesensetotalkofhavingefficientexperiences.Isan
experienceofcampinginthemountainsmoreefficientthantheexperienceofwalkingthroughaforest?Makesnosense.Aretheyeducational?Unquestionably.Whyaretheyeducational?Notbecauseweremembersomecontent,althoughthatmightbeanepiphenomenonofthis,butbecauseofwhatwe
becomeforhavingdoneso.
David:SodidIbecomesomethingusefulfortakingastructuralequationmodelinclass,eventhoughnowIdon’trememberthespecificsofit?
Stephen:Didyoubecomesomethingthatyouwantedto?
David:Ithinkso.
Stephen:Youthinkso.Imean,Idon’tevenknowwhatyoubecameasaresultofthat.
David:This.
Stephen:This.Well…
David:Yeah,wellmaybeyoubetternotcomment.
Stephen:Iwasjustabouttosay,rightsomethingthatisnotme,okay.
David:CanIcomeroundtomyquestionbecausewe’rerunningoutoftime.
Stephen:Yeah,absolutely.
David:Soasyouknow,Iknowyouknow,becauseyoucoveredit,astudentofmineatUtahStatejust
didthisstudyoftheratesofreuseofopeneducationalresourcesintheConnexionsrepository27.Andforthoseofyouwhohaven’treadthedissertation,whathefoundisthatthere’sbasicallynoreuse.By
27http://www.archive.org/details/PatternsOfLearningObjectReuseInTheConnexionsRepository
reuseImean,Ishouldsaythere’sno,norevision,noremixing,notranslation,noenactingoftherightsgrantedbytheopenlicencebypeoplewhocometovisittheseresourcesbasically.Soinacollectionof
fifty‐fivehundredsomemodules,Ithinkhefoundtenthathadbeenchangedinanywayfivetimesormore.Andthisisoneofthebetterestablished,oldercollectionsofmaterial.
Andinadditiontohavingthematerialonthesite,thesitealsohasallthetoolsyouneedtomakechangesanddothings,andittracksitallautomatically.Andwethought“Ifwe’reevergoingtofindit
anywhere,thissiteiskindof,insomewaysthebestcasescenario,ofgoingtolookforhowmuchreuseisreallyhappening.”SowhenIstartedquotingnumbersinthesubonepercentrange,Ihadanotverybriefpanicattack.AndIsaid“Basicallyyestherearehalfamillionpeopleeverymonththatcometothis
site,whatever.Andtheyuseandreusethismaterialjustexactlythewaytheyfindit,whichisinnowayanydifferentfromthewayinwhichtheyinteractwithCNN.com,ortheBBC’swebpage.Theycome,it’sfree,theyreadit,theygoaway.”
WegotoallthisextratroubletoscrubIPanddoallthesethings,sothatwecanapplyanopenlicence,
andthenitturnsoutthatbasicallynooneactuallyenactsanyoftherightsthatwegavethembyallthishugeadditionaleffort.TheyuseMITopencourseware,theyuseConnexons,theyusecoursewarethesamewaythattheyuseCNN.comwhichistheycome,it’sfree,itdoesn’tcostanything.Theyreadit,it
mightbefullycopyright,itmightbeopen,theydon’tknow–theyusetheminthesameway,theyjustreaditandtheygoaway.SoIaskedmyselfifthisisthebestcasescenario,isitevenworthit?Isallthetroubleofopenlylicensingeducationalmaterialsworthit?Becauseitseemstomethatwegotoahuge
amountoftroubleandeffortandthenbasicallynoonedoesanythingwithit.
Nowyoucan,thereareacoupleofthingsyoucanargue.(Aroshbiss?)willarguewithmethathalfapercentisahugenumber.Whichisonewayoflookingatit.Anotherwayoflookingatitisevenifonlyone
persondoesit,thenthat’sincrediblyvaluable,becausetheycouldneverhavedoneitbefore.ButIreallyspentaperiodoftime…IthinkI’mkindofoverthecrisisoffaithstageofit.AndnowI’mjustintothe“howmuchsensedoesthisreallymake?”stageofit.
Stephen:Myinterpretationofthatisthatitisthesystemworkingasitwasdesignedtowork.You’vegot
peopleouttherewhoarebeingtoldthatundernoaccountshouldtheyre‐usethings.Right,sothemeetingupofcontentwhichtheycanuseistheexceptionratherthantheruletoalargedegree.Andit’snotevencontentthattheylike(nothingpersonaloranythinglikethat).ButImean,they’remuch
moreinterested,asamI,inmusicandcinemaandtelevisionandbooksthantextonwhatever.Youknow,soit’snotupthereinmylistofthingstobereusing.IfIwasgoingtobere‐writingsomething,I’dbere‐writing,Idon’tknow,WarandPeace,andnotatextbookonstatistics.
So,themainthingis,Ithinkwe’relookingstillatagenerationthathasbroughtupthinkingoflearningas
somethingthattheyreceivepassively,ratherthansomethingthattheyareengagedintheprocessofcreatingforthemselves(Iverydeliberatelydon’tusetheword“constructing”,becauseI’mnotgivingaconstructivistdiscoverylearningtheoryhere).ButIdobelievethatovertime,ifweworktowardthesort
ofeducationalsystemIthinkthatweneedtoworktoward,peoplemoreandmorewillbecomemoreresponsiblefortheirownlearning.Andforthesimplepragmaticreasonthatwecannotafford,asa
society,asaglobalsociety,toprovideitforthem–it’sjusttooexpensive.Wedon’thavetheresourcesontheplanettodoit.
Soanywayofaccomplishingeducationforallisgoingtobepeoplecreatingtheirownlearningfor
themselves.Butwearealongwayfromthat,andwearestilltoalargedegree,anditvariesabitfromsocietytosociety,buttoalargedegree,stillpresentingeducationassomethingthatweprovideforyou.Andyouastherecipientquietlyandpassivelyreceive.Andsothat’showtheytreatopeneducational
resources.Ofcoursetheywould.That’showtheytreatmovies,that’showtheytreattelevisionshows.That’showtheytreat,underpenaltyoflawsuit,music.
Youknow,Imeanweshouldn’texpectanythingelse.Sothere’sachallengeinherentintheentireprojectofopeneducationalresources,notsimplytomakeresourcesopen.Andagain,ifwegotothe
Internetwecanfindtwelvemillionpicturesofducks,fivemillionofwhichareopen.Orwhateverthosenumberswere,I’venomemorywhatsoever.ButyouknowwhatImean?It’snotsomuchthat,asfosteringthisenvironmentwhereit’sokaytocreatenewthingsoutofexistingthings.Justasyouknow,
whenasasocietywewerebecomingliterate,wehadtogothroughastagetoconvincepeopleitwasokaytomakenewcreationsoutofpre‐existingwords.Youknow,eventhenovelisarelativelyrecentinvention.Andthewholeidea‐youknowit’sfunny,novelstillmeanslongishbookandsomethingnew.
There’saninterestingcoincidencethere.I’mnotsurethere’sanysignificancetothatcoincidence,butit’sthere.ButdoyouseewhatI’msaying?
David:Yeah,itsoundstomelikewhatyou’resayingis“Yesit’sworthit.Davidyoujustneedtobepatientforpeople’smindsetandculturetocatchupwiththe,excusemeforsaying,affordancesofopen
educationalresources”.
Stephen:Notjustthat,thatbutalsodon’tbesoconcernedtobuildreallybeautifulcourses.Becauseespeciallynowit’sanawfullotofworkforsomethingthat,asyouquiteproperlypointout,isn’tgoingto
bere‐used.
David:ButtheConnectionsstuffisjustmodulebymodulebymodule.Insomecasesthosemodulesareputintosomethingthattheycallacollection,whichisroughlyanalogoustoatextbook,butthisisreallyaseriesoffifty‐fivehundredmodulesnotcourses.Thesearemuchmorebazaarthancathedral28,and
yetstill…
Stephen:Yeah,wellbut…
David:…nothing.It’skindof…Andtenyears…
Stephen:Butpeoplestill,they…
David:…stillisn’tlongenough.
28http://catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/
Stephen:…theyhavetodotheirlearninginsidethesecontentenclosureswheretheypaytuitionandtheysitpassivelyandthat’showtheylearn,right.Imean,nowonderthere’snothing.Theonlypeopleat
thismomentwhoaregoingtore‐usethesethingsareuniversityprofessors,andtheyactuallyhaveanincentivenottousethesethings.
David:SoifMITopencoursewarewerefullycopyrighted,butfreelyavailable,youcouldgothere,youcouldsurfit,youcouldreadit,youcoulddoeverything,youjust,itdidn’thaveCreativeCommonson
thebottom,itjustsaid“copyright”onthebottom,whatinthelasttenyears,wouldtheworldhavelost?
Stephen:Well…Pardon?
Dave:SlightlydifferentinChina.
Stephen:BedifferentinChina?
Dave:There’salotoffarrangingconsequencesIthinktothatthataren’tsomuchaboutthereuseof.
David:AlthoughIcantellyou…canIsaythiswhilewe’rerecording?
Stephen:Goforit.
Dave:Icanturnitoff.
David:You’renottheonlyonerecording.Inanearlymeeting,thiswouldbelike2002to2003,wheretwelveorsopeoplewereinaroomtogether,andtalkingaboutopencoursewareandtherewererepresentativesfromdifferentprojects.Thereisarepresentativewhowillremainunnamedfroma
Chinesegroupofpeopleandarepresentativeofopencoursewarethatwillremainunnamed.Asweallwentaroundcomplainingabout“Ohmygoshyouknow,IPandcopyrightclearanceandopenlaw,thatwholepartislikehalfortwo‐thirdsthecostoftheseprojectsthatwedo.”
TheguyfromChinajuststartedlaughingandsaid“Wedon’tcare.”Andweallthought“Ohhe’s
caricaturingyouknow,he’smirroringbacktousourstereotype”,wealllaughedathisjokeandthenhewasn’tjoking.Andifyouthinkthatthecostissomewhereintheneighbourhoodofmaybehalfofan
institutionalproject,thatMITisfourmillionayear,roughly,theongoingcost.You’redroppingtwograndover,twomillionayear,justonIPclearance.Andthenwhatare,whatarepeoplemakingofthistwomilliondollarsthatyearafteryearafteryearyou’reinvesting?They’renotexercisinghardlyanyof
therights.
Stephen:Idon’t…
David:…withtheobviousexceptionofpeoplewhotranslatedirectlyintoanotherlanguage.Whichtomeisnotthemostinterestingkindofrevisionorremixing,it’sjust…
Stephen:Let’sthinkaboutthis,ImeanthisismoneyspentonIPclearance,it’skindoflikeforeignaidmoneythat’sspentinNewYork.Imeanit’slike,it’sbeingsentdirectlytothepeoplewhoneeditthe
least.Imean,whyspendthismoneyonIPclearancetobeginwith?Imean…
David:ThisisthequestionI’masking.
Stephen:Imean,ifIweredesigninganopeneducationalresourcesystem,IwouldnotbetryingtoclearIPfromcommercialcontent.I’dtrashthat–seriously.Youknow,we’vegotawholecommunityof
peoplewhocancreatethings,createcapacityforthatcommunity,inordertocreate.AndforgetaboutclearingIP.Imean,that’sridiculous,it’satotalwasteoftime.
David:Justcreateitfromscratch.
Stephen:Justcreateitfromscratch.DoyouthinkWikipediaspendanytimeclearingIPonstuff?YouknowImean,theyhaveyouknowafterthefact,youknow,ifsomebodyuploadssomething,they’lltake
itdown.Butyouknow,theydon’tpre‐screenalloftheircontent.Theprojectwouldhavebeenimpossible.Itwouldhavecosthundredsofmillionsormore.
David:ItwouldhavebeenNewpedia.29
Stephen:WouldhavebeenNewpediaexactly,youknow.
David:Thatwasajoke.
Stephen:Yeah,butyouknow,againit’sthis“openeducationalresourcesattemptingtoreplicatewhatwastherebefore.”Forgetwhatwastherebefore.Wedon’tneedtoreplicatetheentirepublishing
structure,youknow,wedon’tevenneedWikipediaforthatmatter.EvenWikipediaisabittoomuchliketheexisting“thereisanencyclopaedia,itistherepositoryforobjectiveneutralpointofviewknowledge”.WhichintheendwillbethedeathofWikipedia.Butthat’salsoaseparateissue.Wedon’t
needtoreplicatewhatwastherebefore.Allweneedtodoissay“Wearegoingtocreateopencontent”andthenjustcreateitasacommunity.Butwehavetogetpastthisideathat“thereareexperts,andtheseexpertswillbetheoneswhocreatethecontent,andthenwe’lldisseminateitouttothemasses,
andwewillpaytheexpertsoutofthesefoundationgrantsandallofthat.”
David:Isn’ttheresomethingveryoddaboutamovementwhosegoalisreusablematerial,thatcan’treuseanymaterial,andhastocreateeverythingfromscratch?Isn’tthatweird?
Stephen:Youknowitwouldseemodd,exceptthepeopleweareentrustingtodothisarethepeople
whobenefitleastfromopencontent.Soyouknowit’slikeentrusting,youknow,apropertymanagementcompanytomanageyourfreehousing,right.Whattheyreallywanttodoisgetpeopleintothepaidhousing.Sothey’lldoalittlebitoffree,butreallythebig…Idon’tknow,thatanalogyis
fallingapart.
David:Likemostfreehousingactually.
Stephen:Wellyeah,becauseweuseconstructioncompaniestobuildfreehousing,ratherthanthepeoplewhoaregoingliveinit.Iwouldbetyouifpeoplewhoweregoingto,welllikeHabitatfor
29http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Interview_With_Wiki_Founder_Jimmy_Wales/551‐96644‐643.html
Humanity30,wherepeopleactuallydoparticipateintheconstructionoftheirownhomes,thosehomesaren’tfallingapart.Andthosehomesaren’tabandonedtheminutethey’reuninhabited.
David:Buttheydoneedtomakecode,andtheydoneedtodosomethingsthatrequiresome,forgive
meforsayingit,expertise.
Stephen:Yeah,butthe…
David:Soyoucanusealargearmyofvolunteersandwhatever,butatsomepointyou’vegottohaveacoupleofpeoplewhoknowwhattodo.
Stephen:Butagain,theentireworldisnotmadeupofnovices,right?Thereisahugebodyofexistingexpertiseintheworldnow.Andforthatmattercodeexistsinhousesmostlytoprotectpeoplefrom
commercialhousebuilderswhocutcorners.Youknow,codedoesn’texisttomakeitharderforsomebodytobuildtheirownhouse.Althougharguably,alotofcodefunctionsinexactlythatway.Ifwewereanationwherewebuiltourownhouses,ourentirehousingcodewouldbedifferent,right.And
inspectionsandcodesandallofthatwouldhelppeoplebuildbetter,ratherthanpreventingcrooksfromcheatinghomeowners.
Dave:GentlemenI’msorry,wehavetwocompetingschedules.Oneofthemsays4.30,oneofthemsays4.45,so…
David:Minesays5o’clock.
Stephen:Thereisarequesttoatsomepointtalkaboutaccreditationandweshouldprobablyaddress
that.Somaybe…
David:Okay.SoletmerestatewhatIthinkyou’resaying.Ithinkyou’resayingthatopeneducationissomethinggoodandweoughttokeepdoingit,butwedon’tnecessarilyneedformalinstitutionsinvolved;itshouldbesomethingthat’sdonebylooseknitnetworksofpeopleandformaledshouldstay
overhereandopenedcanbeoverhere.
Stephen:Andalso,tomakethepointevenmorestrongly,formalinstitutionsandactualpublishershavetodatebeenswallowingandabsorbingmostoftheresourcesthatwe’vebeenspendingonopen
educationalresources.Andthisisnotagoodthing.
It’skindoflikewehavethisbigvacuumofcommercialenterprise,suckingallthemoneyawayfromopeneducationalresourcesandprofitingthemselves,andwestilldon’thavetheresourceswewanted.Andhundredsofmillionsofdollarshavebeenspent.Anditdidn’tgotothepeoplewhocouldbe
producingtheseresources;itwenttocommercialpublishers,institutions.Thinkaboutit,ImeanMITgotfundingtodoopencoursework.MIT!Imean…talkaboutinstitutionsthatdon’tneedmoremoney.
David:It’sstunning,whenIfirstwasthinkingaboutdoingopencontent,IsentanemailtoEricRaymondandanemailtoRichardStallmanandIsaid“HeyIhavethisidea.Doyouthinkitwouldbeuseful?Do
30http://www.habitat.org/
youthinkweshoulddoit?”Ericimmediatelysaid“Yes,andyoushouldcallitopenanything.”AndRichardsaid“Yes,youshouldcallitfreeanything.Idon’tcarewhatthesecondwordis–justmakesure
youcallitfree…”ActuallyEricwasn’tnearlysodogmatic.ButRichard’scommenttomewas“Youshoulddoit.Youshouldcallitfreewhatever.Andifyouactuallycareaboutit,youneedtodropoutofyourPhDprogramme,youneedtogetoutofacademia,youneedtodowhatever.Becauseallofthatstuffis
justgoingtogetinyourwayand.Look,wouldLinuxhaveeverhavehappenedifIdidaPhD?”Richardsaystome.“Youneedtoabandonthatwholething,justgetoutofallofitandcome,liveinthewoodsordowhateveritisthatRicharddoes.”AndhetoldmethatifIdidn’tdothat,Iwasn’tamoralperson,
andyouknowtheseotherthings.Sowedon’tspeakmuchanymore.
Stephen:IgotintoanargumentwithhimwhenIwasinBarcelona,andhesaid“AnddoyouknowIhaveanofficeatMIT.”Isawit,it’sacardboardsign.Andpeoplesaythingsanddothings…
David:ButifIcansaythiswithoutmakingitsoundpersonal,thenfromyourperspective,IshouldgetoutofthebusinessofopeneducationaslongasI’mpartofthesystemofformaleducationandhavean
academicappointment.Andanswerthatwithoutconsiderationsofpersonalfeeling.
Stephen:Wellno,Imean,it’stheold,“allleftistsmustbeinpoverty”argument.Ihearthatalot,beingsomeonefromtheleft.
David:Ihearyou’resaying,butyou’resayingformaledjustneedstostayoutofthisbusiness,andI’maformaled,forbetterorforworse.
Stephen:No,whatI’msayingis,inyourroleasformaled,thatisyouknowprofessorofaninstitution,or
theownerofapublishingcompany…
David:Let’sbeclear–employeeofapublishingcompany.
Stephen:Oh,Ithoughtyouownedit.
David:Notanowner.I’mnotoneofthefounders.
Stephen:Allthatstreetcredthatyoubroughtin,youcouldn’tgetownership?
David:No,Ihavealittleownership,butI’mnotafounder.
Stephen:Yeah,butanyhow,inthoseroles,ifyouaredivertingfundingforopeneducationalresourcesto,say,youruniversity…
David:…andawayfrom…
Stephen:…awayfrom…
David:…woulditgotoJoe?
Stephen:Let’ssayJoe.
David:Joe’sgoingtosendaproposaltoNSFortheHewlettFoundation,saying“Icandosomething”.
Stephen:No,ofcoursenot.Theentiremechanismofsendinginproposalscreatesasysteminwhichpeoplewhobecomeexpertatsendinginproposalsgetfunded.Andthattendstobepeoplewhowork
atuniversitiesorpeoplewhoworkatcompanies.
David:Idon’tthinkthatfundingisdiverted.Idon’tthinkthere’sanychanceofJoereceivinganyofthatfunding;Idon’tthinkyoucanargueit’sbeendivertedawayfromhim.Therewasneveranychanceofhimreceivingit.
Stephen:Heneverhadachance.Yeah,therewasnochanceweweregoingtogiveJoedemocracysowe
don’tliveinfascism.
David:Yeah,absolutely.Iwasjustthinkingthatmyself.
Stephen:Yeah,okay.
David:Poorlydonebuteffective.
Stephen:Oursystemofaccreditationinasensemirrorsoursystemofopeneducationalresource,welloursystemofeducation,right?Accreditation,education‐andit’snotsurprisingthattheparallel’sthere,becauseit’sallpartofthesamesystem.Andweworkwithasystemofaccreditationwhichfunctions
verymuchasshorthandforit.YouhaveaBachelorofArts,you’represumedtoknowsuchandsuch.
And,whereamIgoingwiththis?WhereIwanttogoisontheonehand,thecurrentsystemistooclumsy,it’stoocoarselygrained.Ontheotherhand,thecurrentsystemperpetuatesastructureoflearningthatisitselftoocoarse(Idon’twanttosaytooinefficient,havingspentalmostanhourtryingto
undercutthatconcept).ButyouknowwhatImean?
David:Imean,tomeaccreditationisaboutprovingtosomeoneelsewhatyouknow.Butactuallystudieshaveshownratherconsistentlythatyouhaveaverypoorideaofwhatyouactuallyknow.You
don’tactuallyknowwhatyouthinkyouknow.
Stephen:Right.Andthelessyouknow,themoreyouthinkyouknow.
David:Yeah,andviceversa.
Stephen:Viceversa,yeah.Whichexplainsalot.
David:Itseemstome,andIwillgostraighttoit,itseemstomethataccreditationisaboutefficiencyandscale.
Stephen:Wellyeah,itisaboutefficiencyandscale–that’strue.
David:IamIBM,I’mgoingtohirefivethousandpeoplethisyear.I’mgoingtohavetwenty‐fivehundredpeopleapplyforeachposition,andIjustcannotreviewaportfolioofauthenticexperiencesand
argumentsprovidedbyeachoneofthem.Iwantanobjective,supposedly,thirdpartytomakesome
representationtomeontheirbehalfthattheydohavethesetofskillsthatIneedinthisposition.Andifthere’ssomebodythat’swillingtoplaythatrole,nowIcanhavealotmorepeopleapplyformyjob,I
canmakethehiringprocessalotmoreefficient,Icanscaleit.
Andtheuniversity’sroleasanaccreditorissimplythat.Becauseifyou’rejustgettingadegreesoyoucansay“Yay,Ihaveadegree”,youwouldn’tpaythemoney.You’djustreadthestuff,you’ddowhatever.Thevastmajorityofpeoplewantthedegreeasthatobjective,thirdpartyrepresentationto
anemployer.Sothefutureofaccreditationquestionformeis“Whoelseandinwhatotherwaycanyoufillthissupposedlyobjectiveroleofthirdpartyrepresentationtoanemployer?”Ithinkthat’sthewholegamerightthere,asfarasaccreditationgoes.
Stephen:Wellyes.ShallIsay“and”or“but”?
David:Say“and”.
Stephen:Andwhatwealsogotforourmoneywasasystemthatpre‐screensoutforusallthepoor
peopleandalltheforeigners.
David:Wellnottheforeigners.
Stephen:Yeah,becauseifyoudon’thaveaUSdegree,IBMwon’thireyou.Unless…
David:ThereareforeignerswithUSdegrees.
Stephen:Yeah,butthosearetherichforeigners.Andbythetimethey’vecomethrough,they’realmostnotforeignersanymore.
David:WellI’mnotgoingtogotherewithyou.
Stephen:But…
David:You’reonyourownwiththat.
Stephen:ButImeanifitwas,iftheintentoftheuniversitysystemwassimply…andtheaccreditation
wassimplytodeterminewhohasandwhohasn’ttheknowledge,therewouldn’tbetherequirementofpayingwhatwasit?Ahundredandeighty‐ninethousand?
David:…andeighty‐ninethousandforMIT.
Stephen:Imeanbecauseweknowthatitdoesn’tcostthattodeterminewhetherornotsomebodycanprogrammeacomputer,evencreatively.And,buttheguysatIBMaregoingtolookatthatMITdegree
andthey’regoingtosay“Screenhimin.”
No,notbecausetheyhaveknowledge,becausetheMITdegreeisneithernecessarynorsufficienttoestablishthatthepersonhastheknowledgethatyouneed.Notnecessaryobviouslybecauseyoucouldhavetheknowledgeelsewhere.Andnotsufficient,becausetheknowledgethatMITtaughtyoumight
notbetheknowledgethatyouneedonthejob–theremightbeamismatch.Youdon’tknowbecauseyouhaven’tlookedatit.
David:Oryoumighthavecheatedyourwaythroughclassorthere’sall…
Stephen:Yeah.Whatyouarebuyingwith,whenyouhirethepersonwiththeMITdegree,isthat
person’ssocialstanding,thatperson’sconnectionsinthecommunity,thatperson’sdemonstratedcapacitytoraiseahundredandeighty‐somethousanddollars,tobuysomethingthathasnoinherentvalue.
David:Orthebravadotogointotwohundredthousanddollarsindebtoversomethingthathas…
Stephen:Wellyouhavetohavemorethanbravadotogettwohundredthousanddollarsindebt.You
havetohaveahouse.
David:Maybethisyearyoudo.Youdidn’thavetolastyear.
Stephen:Yeah.No,wellthatmayhavebeentrueintheStates,butyouknowintherestoftheworldyouactuallyhadtohavesomeassetsbeforeyouwenttwohundredthousanddollarsintodebt.IntheUnitedStatesapromissorynoteandadog,thatwouldhavedoneit.Andthedogwasoptional.
David:Theinterestingquestiontomeisif,IthinkWesternGovernorsisaveryinterestingmodelofnext
generationaccreditation,becauseintheUSrightnowit’srealpopularforcompaniestotrytobundlephone,TVandInternetallinapackageandbuythewholepackage,andwhatever.Whichinsomewaysistheuniversitymodel–“Wecanprovidethecontent,weprovidethetutor,weprovidethe
assessment,it’sallinabundle.”Andyoueithereatthewholething,oryoudon’tgetanyofit.Whereas,whenItalkedaboutthedisaggregationofhighered,I’mtalkingaboutthoseindividualpiecespullingoffintodistinctunits.
Stephen:Sure.
David:WesternGovernorsdoesn’tofferanycourses.Theyprovidesomekindofadvising…it’snotcontenttutoring,butlike,“thesearethethingsyouhavetodoifyouwanttogetthisdegree”kindofleveladvising.Andtheyreallyarejusttheaccreditationpiece,they’renotthecourses,they’renotthe
otherthings.Anditseemstomelikethenextstepinthis,howthisunfoldsispeoplepulling…Icanimaginepeoplethatoffercourseswithnoaccreditation.Justaseasilyasyoucanimagineauniversitythatoffersaccreditationwithnocourses.
Stephen:I’vedoneit.
David:Alotoffacultieshavedoneitactually.
Stephen:Imean,eventheConnectivismcourse,forthenon‐signeduppeople,isacoursewithout
accreditation.Thisraisesthequestion‐becauseaccreditationisstillmonopolyeconomics‐whetherWesternGovernorsUniversitywillgivecredittoanyparticularstudentwhosatisfiesthecriteria.ButI
can’tofferacourse,orno,moreaccurately,Ican’tofferacredentialthatcanbeofferedthroughWesternGovernorsUniversity.Doesthatmakesense?
David:Yeah.
Stephen:SoIcan’toffermyowncredentials.
David:ThroughWesternGovernors.Youcanofferthemon…
Dave:Ahem,summaryremarks?(Voicestalkingtogether)
Stephen:I’mnotsurethatthat’slegal.
Dave:Iknow.It’salmostlikeI’mthemoderator.
Stephen:Imean,(laughter)thereexiststothisdaynonetheless,governmentsanctionedmonopolieson
credentials.Icannotofferauniversitydegree.I’dliketo.Itwouldbeagoodsourceofrevenue.Icouldprobablyretireoffoftenstudents,especiallyatMITrates.AndmaybeIcouldevenfindpeopletopaythat,butI’dprobablyhavetowork.ButinfactIcan’t.Ithinkwithinourlifetimesthatwillchange.Ithink
thatwithinourlifetimesthegovernmentsanctionedmonopolyonuniversitycredentialswillbelifted.AndinterestinglyIthinkitwillbeliftednotbecauseit’sunfair,notbecauseitkeepsoutthepoororanythinglikethat,butasawayforgovernmentsnolongertohavetopaytofundtheuniversitysystem,
whichtheywon’tbeabletodo.
David:Wellthey’regoingtonamethemderegulationoranti‐competitiveness...
Stephen:Wellthat’s,yeah,everythingispassedinthenameofderegulation.Butwhatitusuallymeansismoremonopoly.Butreally,thereasonwhythey’lldoitistheydon’twanttopayfortheuniversitysystemanymore.BecausewhatisitthatyoubuywhenyougotoMIT?It’snotthelearning,it’snotthe
instruction,it’snoteventakingatestandhavingitmarked.It’sthebuddy‐buddynetwork.Andpeopledon’twanttopayforthebuddy‐buddynetwork.
I’vesaidsometimessomethingslike,thatI’vewritteninthepast“governmentsaren’tgoingtowantto
payforsocialclubsforrichpeopleanymore.”AndIthink,especiallyasfinancesgettighter,that’sgoingtobecomemoretrue.Andwe’regoingtoseethemonopolyoncredentialinglifted.That’swhenyou’regoingtostartseeingyourreuse.That’swhenyou’regoingtostartseeingtheseopeneducational
resourcesactuallymeansomething.
David:ButIthink,soIagreewiththat,but…
Stephen:Not“and”?
David:Not“and”.Iagreewiththelastpartyousaid.IthinksocialclubsforrichpeopleareYaleandHarvardandStanfordandMITandtheseplacesthatthegovernmentgivesthemnomoney.They’renotpubliclyfunded,they’reprivate,oftenendowment.IfyoucometoUtahStateUniversity,whereit’s,well
usedtobemajority…
Stephen:Ithinkit’squaintyouthinkMITandHarvardandallthatgetnogovernmentmoney,butwe’llleavethataside.
David:YouunderstandwhereI’mcomingfromthough?
Stephen:Yeah.ButIstillthinkit’saquaintbelief.It’slikesayingBoeingdoesn’tgetgovernmentmoney.
David:No,no,no,that’sunderstood.ButyoucomparetoUtahState,orArizonaStateorsomething
else,whereit’sprimarilypubliclyfunded.Andit’snotrichkidsgoingtoschoolthere.NotlikeitisatMIT,Yaleand…
Stephen:Butit’snotpoorpeopleeither.
David:…theseotherplaces.You’dbesurprised.
Stephen:It’sUSpoor.Notworldpoor.
David:ButtheschoolsareintheUS,why…
Stephen:Yeah,butthereisn’taUtahStateinJohannesburg.
David:No.
Stephen:Andprobablyneverwillbe.
David:Probablynot.
Stephen:TheremaybeanotherMITorHarvardetcwhichwillsuckasmuchgovernmentmoneyasitcan,but…
David:Didyouwantsomekindofsummaryremark?
Dave:Itriedto,Isaidsummaryremarksandyoucalledmerude.
David:Iwasonlykidding.
Dave:Youhurtmyfeelings.
Stephen:Sowhatwe’veestablishedisDavid’sanutterfailureas…No,I’mjustkidding.
Dave:...anunusualpunishment.
Stephen:Okay,actuallyyeah,wedoneedtowrapup,andfirstofallIcan’tbelieveyou’reallstillintheroom.
David:Ican’teither.It’satestamenttotheenduranceofthehumanspiritthatyou’reallstillhere.
AudienceMember:Weheardtherewasaraffle.
(laughter)
Davvid:Mustbepresenttowin,exactly.DinnerwithStephenactually,datelatertonight,it’swhatwe’rerafflingoff.
Stephen:Wedid,wehavegifts.Sothankyoutothemoderators.
David:Thankyousomuch,wereallyappreciateit.
(applause)