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ADVISORY BOARD
DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION ANDNATURAL RESOURCES
INTERNATIONAL MOTORS SPORTS
0 HALL OF FAME AND MUSEUM
2 May 21, 2005 - 9:00 a.m.
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002A P P E A R A N C E S
ADVISORY BOARD MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE:
Mr. Bill Hatley
Mr. Ross M. Self
Dr. Gaines Smith
Dr. Wayne May
Mr. Louis Coles
Mr. Barnett Lawley, Commissioner0 Dr. Warren Strickland
Mr. W. Grant Lynch
2 Mr. James W. Porter, II
Mr. Johnny M. Johnson
4 Mr. George Harbin
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I N D E X
CALL TO ORDER............... 4
INVOCATION.................. 4
INTRODUCTION OF
BOARD MEMBERS............. 4
APPROVAL OF MINUTES OF
LAST MEETINGS............. 6
PUBLIC HEARING.............. 7
0 DCNR DEPARTMENTAL REPORTS.. 96 DISTRICT REPORTS.......... 122
2 NEW BUSINESS.............. 152
SELECTION OF DATE
4 AND LOCATION............ 154
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May 21, 2005 9:00 a.m.
CALL TO ORDER
MR. COLES: I'd like to call the
meeting of the May 21st meeting of the
Conservation Advisory Board. And no. I am
not Dan Moultrie. Mr. Moultrie has a family
conflict today and will not be present with
0 us. And at this time, I'd like to call on
Mr. Johnny Johnson to give us our invocation.
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INVOCATION
4
(Whereupon, the invocation was given by Mr.
6 Johnny Johnson.)
INTRODUCTION OF BOARD MEMBERS
9
0 MR. COLES: We'll now have the introduction of the Board members by
2 Commissioner Lawley.
MR. LAWLEY: Thank you, sir. First
005
of all, I want to thank Grant Lynch and the
Talladega Superspeedway for hosting this
meeting. It's a beautiful facility and if
you have time after the meeting to ride
around and look at this whole racetrack, it'sphenomenal. It's such an asset to this area
and where I live, also. It's very important
to us.
I'd like to introduce the Board members
0 in attendance. Bill Hatley, Ross Self, Dr.
Gaines Smith, Dr. Wayne May, Louis Coles,
2 Grant Lynch, Jim Porter, Johnny Johnson and
George Harbin.
4 We also have a new member today that is taking a turn for Mr. Bud Willis who served
6 this advisory board very well in the State of
Alabama and did a good job. His term was up.
Dr. Warren Strickland was appointed by the
9 Governor and this is his meeting.
0 Dr. Strickland is a lifelong bow hunter.
He started bow hunting with his father when
2 he was twelve years old in Arkansas. You may
have seen him on TV. I have several times on006
Mossy Oak shows. His knowledge of hunting,
his knowledge of biology and habitats will be
a tremendous asset to this Board.
He's very active with the Boy Scouts.
He's an outdoor person and that's what we
really need as we all have our love in our
hearts for the outdoors.
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He's a very successful cardiologist and
heart surgeon in Huntsville, Alabama.
0 Warren, we are happy to have you aboard.
Thank you.
2
APPROVAL OF MINUTES OF LAST MEETINGS
4
MR. COLES: Next item on the agenda6 is the approval of the minutes of the last
meetings of February and March.
UNIDENTIFIED BOARD MEMBER: So
9 moved.
0 UNIDENTIFIED BOARD MEMBER:
Seconded.
2 MR. COLES: We have a motion to
second. All Board members in favor please
007signify by raising your right hand. Motion
carries.
MS. ROBIN: I'll have him to repeat
that.
PUBLIC HEARING
MR. COLES: The next item on the
agenda is the public hearing section of our0 meeting. And before we get started, I'd like
to call your attention as you signed up to
2 speak on the sign-in sheet, down at the
bottom, there was a little disclaimer. It
4 says: I agree to provide only truthful and
factual information to the Board.
6 Felt like this was necessary. Sometimes,
we, as Board members, sit here and we have to
determine whether the information that's9 given is factual or a fabrication or
0 exaggerated or what. And so we ask that you
abide by this.
2 Under the miscellaneous topic -- and,
please, bear with me as I try to pronounce
008
these names. Mr. Kevin Archie from Kinslin,
Alabama. Is Mr. Archie here?
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MR. JONES: (Inaudible.)
(Whereupon, the court reporter indicated that
the speaker could not be heard. Adjustments
to the microphone system were made.)
MR. JONES: Good morning,
0 Gentlemen. Thank y'all for allowing us to speak today. I want to welcome the new
2 member Mr. Strickland. Thank you for
accepting the job where it's impossible to
4 make everybody happy.
Kevin Archie could not be here today. He
6 is the president of the Alabama Muzzleloader
Association. His two daughters are playing
their final t-ball game this morning. Asked
9 me to speak for him.0 He basically just wanted me to tell y'all
thank y'all. They really appreciate the
2 opportunity y'all have done. Didn't have any
complaints about any of y'all or anything
009
that y'all have done. May be the only group
today that you hear that from.
Their membership is expanding. Enjoyed
the days they had of hunting last year. Theonly thing Kevin brought up to ask -- or told
me to ask y'all about was Youth Day this year
is on November 12th. And then the
muzzleloader season is coming in from the
14th to the 18th if I understand it correctly
0 which is a Monday through Friday before
regular gun season came in.
2 The reason for asking is if y'all would
consider either having a Youth Day on the4 12th and the 13th for us who have two kids
like he does. We have to figure out which
6 one gets to shoot first. Or opening the
muzzleloading season possibly on the 13th
where the folks who do like to use the
9 muzzleloaders would have one week -- at least
0 one day on the weekend of season like
everybody else does. If you would consider
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2 that then he would be appreciative of it.
Besides that, he wanted to reiterate
010
thank you for what y'all have done and be
open-minded on expanding the different means
of access to people to have and enjoy the
woods.
If y'all have any questions, I probablycan't answer them but I can write them down
and provide his telephone number or go out
and call him and get an answer for you.
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
0 Next we'll hear from Amy Boyanton from
Huntsville.
2 MS. BOYANTON: (Inaudible.)
4 (Whereupon, the court reporter indicated that the speaker could not be heard. Adjustments
6 to the microphone system were made.)
MS. BOYANTON: My name is Amy
9 Boyanton. I live in Huntsville, Alabama in
0 Madison County.
2 (Whereupon, Board members indicated that the
speak could not be heard. Adjustments were011
made to the microphone system.)
MS. BOYANTON: Like I said, my name
is Amy Boyanton. I live in Huntsville in
Madison County. By nature, I'm a
stay-at-home mom with two small children who
are two and five. But December the 19th,
2004, I became in the truest sense of theword "hunting widow."
0 My husband Ben Boyanton was an attorney
in Huntsville. Very successful, full of
2 life, wonderful father, wonderful husband.
Was hunting in a tree stand on private
4 property in a tree stand that he had locked
off on while our oldest son watched. A tree
6 stand he had hunted in time after time with a
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false sense of security because he had hunted
there over and over.
9 He made a very poor choice that day. He
0 had taught our oldest child the importance of
safety in hunting and wearing orange and
2 locking on. And if you ask my five-year-old
why his daddy died, he says: Daddy forgot to
012buckle. This is something that no family
should ever have to go through.
I know that it is required and it is a
choice people make on wildlife management
areas. And I'm here today to beg you and ask
you to make it a requirement for the whole
state private property or wildlife management
area.
My husband's life was very important to0 me and to my family, our community, our
church, friends, people in the legal
2 community in Huntsville. It didn't matter if
his life was on public or private property.
4 It was important. It was special as is any
person's life to their family.
6 And I just ask you to consider changing
it and making it required. My husband was
the type personality, if it had been a9 requirement on private property, he would
0 have loved to buckle it on and complain the
while time.
2 He would have badmouthed whoever made him
do it but he would have put it on and he
013
would be home today with our now
three-year-old and six-year-old who
celebrated their first birthday without theirfather.
And, you know, it's a really bad day.
It's been five months. It's been a very
short time but in some ways, it feels like
longer. But I am raising two sons on my home
with the help of my husband's best friends
0 who I had to call and had to go find him face
down dead in the woods where he had been
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2 laying alone for hours.
But I am raising two hunters because my
4 husband had a passion for his family, his
dogs and for the outdoors. And so my
6 children will always be taught the importance
of safety regardless of where they are.
Regardless of the height or what kind of tree
9 stand they're in.0 But I just would ask you to consider it
carefully for the lives of all hunters in the
2 state of Alabama no matter where they are.
Thank you.
014
MR. COLES: Thank you. We would
like to extend our deepest sympathy for your
loss and appreciate you coming today.
Next is Jack Cropp of Pell City.MR. CROPP: Mr. Cole, Members of
the Board, Mr. Lawley, Mr. Hughes, Members of
the Conservation Department, my name is Jack
Cropp and I'm from Pell City in St. Clair
County.
0 I think it's generally accepted now that
the changes implemented last year have been
2 an enhancement to the hunting experience in
Alabama. And I'm just disappointed that the4 Board continues to approve foolish
restrictions.
6 I hate to see you all regulate a good
thing just to appease a few malcontents.
9 (Whereupon, the court reporter indicated that
0 the speaker could not be heard.)
2 MR. CROPP: I'm concerned about the restrictions in Barbour County --
015
MR. GOODWIN: Can you speak closer
to the mike?
MR. CROPP: They may roll them over
into the rest of the state. You know, deer
hunting in Alabama has evolved from bare
antler buck only to a hunting experience
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that's championed by every state in the
nation.
And these back-up concepts have been
0 looked at and studied over the years and they
might biologically be a bad thing to do.
2 You know when you shoot a deer with three
points on one side -- young deer with three
4 points on one side and let spikes and four pointers walk, you've probably killed the
6 deer with the best genes and let the inferior
buck walk to do the breeding.
You know there's not so much public land
9 in Barbour County with the exception of the
0 management areas. And right now, if the
majority of the people down there really want
2 restrictions, they can have them now just
like they want them.016
Now this focus in Alabama, we don't need
no more Government mandates. But putting
people into the permit system, I assume that
you mean to make it work. The fact that the
anti-dog hunters know that they have the
advantage for most conflicts. The only way
to make the permit system work is to ensure
that complaints against dogs and dog huntersbe substantiated with affidavits and police
0 reports and court orders to prove that
somebody's rights have really been violated.
2 Anti-dog hunters just ain't going to let
nothing work and it ought to be obvious that
4 it's not going to stop with deer dogs.
Some of the charges that have been
6 brought forth against the dog hunters in the
past have been absolutely ridiculous. And I thought I had heard them all. And this year,
9 somebody comes forth and says that they're
0 killing his deer, running his deer on his
property. He called the game warden and the
2 game warden says, "No. I can't do nothing
because they said they was rabbit hunters."
017
Now, Gentleman, that's an insult to Mr.
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Alan and everybody in that department. If
any officers in the conservation department
suspicion that someone was illegally deer
hunting and they -- and they caught them at
it and asked them about it and they said:
Oh, no. We're not deer hunting. We're
rabbit hunting. There isn't an officer in
that department that would just throw their0 hands up and say, oh, okay, and walk away.
They'd search them right there. And if they
2 had buckshot, slugs or a rifle with them,
they'd get a ticket for hunting deer
4 illegally.
Now Rick Yeager who happens to have -- he
6 claims to be a major player in the permit
system in southeast Alabama and he has a web
site called stalk and steal hunters USA. And9 it's nothing less than a dog hunter hate
0 site. And I will challenge the so-called
(inaudible) group from Jefferson County to
2 show where they have ever attempted to reach
a compromise solution with some of these
018
groups.
They come to these meetings looking for
somebody new to come in and kind of complainand when they do, they jump on him like a
buzzard on a roadkill and influence them,
tell them how they can go about getting dog
hunting stopped in that area.
Hunting in Alabama or hunting in the
world is a worldwide tradition for both man
0 and beast. And the liberties that we have to
hunt in Alabama are not equal anywhere in the
2 North America and very few places in the entire world.
4 And it's ironic that today, we've got
Alabamians in places like Iraq and
6 Afghanistan risking their lives to protect
our freedom so that some of those who chose
not to serve can deny them the privilege of
9 hunting on their own land in the
0 manner that they choose when and, indeed, if
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they do come home.
2 To the best of my knowledge, Gentlemen,
there has never been any substantiated
019
evidence submitted that would justify
stopping dog hunting anywhere in Alabama and
there ain't none on the table this year.
When y'all are making your finaldecisions, I just hope that you use logical
common sense and fairness and don't place any
more restrictions on any kind of hunting, dog
or otherwise.
And I'd like to see you take those
0 foolish restrictions off cross bows and I'd
like to see those counties that have had
2 their hunting privileges denied unjustly in
the past, I'd like to see those counties have4 those hunting privileges reinstated. Thank
you.
6 MR. LAWLEY: Thank you, Mr. Cropp.
Next we'll hear from Gary Kendrick.
MR. KENDRICK: Good morning,
9 Gentleman. I would like to express my
0 appreciation to these gentlemen for allowing
me to talk here (inaudible). I wanted to
2 speak to you just a moment this morning. My name is Gary Kendrick and I'm from
020
Pell City, Alabama. I'd like to speak to you
just a moment on the future of our crappie
fishing. What I'm going to say is not to pat
myself on the back. I just want to make a
point of it.
I currently belong to the American
Crappie Association which is a nationalorganization of crappie fishermen. I also
belong to the Alabama Crappie Association
0 which is a large club here in the state of
Alabama. I serve currently on the Angler
2 Advisory Board for the South USA,
Incorporated national tournament trail.
4 By doing so, I've had the opportunity to
travel many states in the southeast over the
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6 last ten years. My wife and I fish national
tournaments, crappie tournaments when my
son's not able to fish with me.
9 Throughout these tours we've discovered
0 that the state of Alabama has the best
crappie fishing overall throughout the state
2 and any of our states surrounding y'all. We
currently can catch quality fish here and021
quantity of fish over all of the other states
in the southeast overall.
But, you know, there's always areas of
improvement. Things we could improve on and
we've just got concerns. Crappie fisherman
that I've talked to have some concern about
the future. In fact, taking a couple of
lakes, for example, on the Coosa River chain,Weiss Lake has been known in the past as the
0 crappie capital of the world.
But for the last several years, there
2 have been some things incorporated to try to
re-establish that lake as the crappie capital
4 of the world. Such as the first three pole
limit and then the ten-inch minimum limit for
6 the fish. And now currently there is a
restocking program that's been going on in that lake for three years.
9 So we look at it and say, well, what's
0 going to bring us back to the extent it was
in the past? I think what we're going to
2 have to do is prevent so many fish from being
taken out of the lake. We can look at that
022
lake with a ten-inch minimum size and we can
fish that lake and we take a lot of nineinch, nine and a half inch fish. So what
happens to the fish ten inches and above?
Might be they're taken out too quickly.
On the other hand, we're looking at Logan
Martin Lake on the banks of the Coosa River
chain. Two lakes below Weiss. We know the
history of Logan Martin Lake. We had some
0 contamination from PCBs dumped into the lake.
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As a result of that, there was a fish
2 advisory implemented for that lake. As a
result of that, the fishing pressure
4 diminished on that lake for a number of
years.
6 But without taking fish out of the lake
for a few years because of the fish advisory,
in turn, this lake has been identified a9 couple years ago in "Crappie World" magazine
0 as one of the best ten lakes in the United
States. Just two weeks ago or three weeks
2 ago, the "Birmingham News" identified Logan
Martin Lake as one of the best crappie lakes
023
in the state of Alabama.
So what are we looking at? Was it
because the fish weren't taken out of thereand they were allowed greater spawn time and
fish were allowed to get to a quality size?
If so, maybe we need to look at something in
addition to the pole limits and length limits
and so on. Maybe it's time again to look at
the reduction of the limit for certain of the
0 fish that they're able to take out of the
lake.
2 All of us can remember not long ago the limit on crappie being taken per person per
4 day was fifty. Now it's thirty. But when we
think of thirty crappie, we're thinking of
6 sixty per lake. Now in the springtime when
the spawn is going on and the crappie are so
easy to catch, we know that people catch a
9 lot of crappie, filet them, put them in their
0 freezer. And much as we hate to say, a lot
of times, they're thrown out because of2 freezer burn or something at the end of the
year.
024
We might need to reduce this to a smaller
number per person and continue to promote
catch and release. We -- in reference back
to Weiss Lake, we know that a lot of times,
we have fishing guides that have clients
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(inaudible) fish per day. Currently, they're
allowed ninety fish per day. And the most
productive time for these guides fishing is
in the spring when the fish are spawning.
0 That's a lot of fish to be taken out of
the lake in one day. And oftentimes, there
2 may be several guides taking them during one
week. So we need to -- that's all legal.4 I'm not saying that they're doing anything
illegal. But we might need to look at the
6 possibly of reduction of the number of fish
per person to be taken out.
And I think that with this, we can
9 continue to look at our lakes in the state of
0 Alabama as some of the most productive as far
as quality and quantity of crappie fish in
2 the United States. Thank you. MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr.
025
Kendrick. Next will be Mr. Joe Thomas from
Pell City.
MR. THOMAS: Good morning. My name
is Joe Thomas. I live in --
(Whereupon, the court reporter indicated that
the speaker could not be heard. Adjustmentsto the microphone system were made.)
0 MR. THOMAS: Getting back on what
Mr. Kendrick said, I've been fishing the
2 Coosa chain, mostly Weiss Lake up until about
five years ago. And if you want to look at
4 history repeating in the past, you can look
at Weiss Lake.
6 It's my understanding at the (inaudible), there's about thirty thousand out of state
fishing licenses sold in Cherokee County
9 alone every year.
0 The Lake Association saw what was going
on there and what first became the problem
2 was stripes in Weiss Lake were eating the
crappie up. So we changed the deal at Weiss
026
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Lake where you can catch the big stripes and
all and get them out of there because they're
eating the crappie. Well, that didn't work
because you can't control it.
The trollers are taking the fish out of
there. So they got all these trollers taking
all these fish out of there. Well, that
didn't work. So we reduced the pole limit tothree there. And we went to a ten-inch limit
0 (inaudible). You've got all these out of
state fisherman coming with guides and now
2 we're -- if you take so many out, you got to
put them back in. And the restocking program
4 is working and this is the best year they've
had.
6 On pole limits, it doesn't matter if
you've got four poles or forty poles, if you've got a limit, fifteen fish, twenty
9 fish, that's all you can catch. And these
0 guys that are out here enforcing it
(inaudible).
2 If you go to Weiss Lake, you got to have
three poles. If you go to Neely Henry,
027
you've got to have two poles. You can have
fifty poles on Logan Martin. I ask you ifyou advise any more pole limits, standardize
it all over Alabama. Make it four poles
statewide. I have no problem with that
(inaudible). But don't make it three here
and then you can have -- you know, I wish you
would look at going to the ten-inch limit
statewide. It works.
0 That's all I have basically on crappie
fishing. One thing that y'all do -- have any2 influence on legislation, I'd like to see
stiffer fines on littering on these lakes.
4 The last few months you've seen Alabama Power
and some of the local TV stations picking up
6 litter. I think five tons on Logan Martin
Lake. And I would love to see a stiff stiff
fine on littering on lakes.
9 It really bothers me that these people
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0 spend all their time picking up litter and
you see folks throwing beer cans, Coke cans
2 and Vienna sausage cans over the side of the
boat and think nothing about it. They
028
wouldn't do it in their front yard and I
don't think (inaudible) make it a real stiff
fine.As Mr. Kendrick said, we travel several
states and an idea that I have seen in
Indiana and in looking -- I've got a brochure
on handicapped fishing accessibility. In
Indiana, every public launch has a ramp that
you can get into the boat off the water out
0 on a ramp -- a wheelchair. It's complicated
how to explain it. You would have to see it.
2 But I'd like to see more of that -- public ramps for handicapped accessibility.
4 And also in Indiana, they have idle speed
only in the creek channels. And I know that
6 can be a real problem with jet skis. Don't
run by you while you're fishing. And that's
all I've got. Thank you.
9 MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
0 Next we'll hear on the Deer-Antler
Restriction. Mr. Kenny Childree from2 Cullman, Alabama.
MR. CHILDREE: Good morning, my
029
name is Kenny Childree. I'm from Cullman,
Alabama. I'm a lifelong resident of Barbour
County. I strongly support the quality deer
management program that is proposed for our
county. My support has not been influenced
by the overwhelming support shown by thepolls nor by the biological data given by the
wildlife biologist. I support this program
because of what I have seen and experienced
0 personally.
For the last twenty-nine year, I have
2 hunted my family property which borders the
Barbour Wildlife Management area. Prior to
4 Barbour going to the three point buck rule, I
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was like most deer hunters. I shot whatever
6 buck I saw and whatever buck came by. I
especially shot the deer if I thought it was
headed toward the Barbour WMA because they
9 would kill it if it made it that far.
0 It was a case of I'll shoot the deer
before somebody else does. When Barbour
2 adopted their three point rule, all of that changed. We, too, went to the three point
030
rule. We no longer shoot the younger bucks
and we promote wild deer management on our
property.
Since then, we have noticed a noticeable
increase in size of the deer and the number
of bucks. This program does work. And I, as
well as others, that border Barbour CountyWMA have benefited from this rule.
One should realize that no one is trying
0 to place a number limit on bucks. No one is
trying to stop the doe harvest. No one is
2 trying to change doe days. And no one is
trying to stop dog deer hunting.
4 Our request has one purpose and one
purpose only. And that is to protect younger
6 bucks. Remember, it wasn't too many years ago when there was just a few days of doe
days at the end of the season. It was
9 considered taboo to be a doe killer.
0 Then we had more days at Christmas and
now we have doe days all season long and we
2 can kill two does on those days. It is no
longer considered wrong to harvest bucks and
031
it is actually promoted by the biologists.All the focus has been on doe harvest and
now it's time to focus on the bucks. Let's
protect these young bucks. Please vote for
this motion.
In the five years that this program will
go on, at the end of these five years, if
it's a bad idea, it'll be obvious. And if
it's a good idea and I truly believe that it
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0 will be, that will be obvious, too. Please
give the hunters of Barbour County an
2 opportunity to try it. Thank you very much.
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr.
4 Childree. Next we'll have Steve Guy from
Montgomery.
6 MR. GUY: Commissioner, Chairman,
members of the Board, my name is Steve Guy. I'm director of the (inaudible) wildlife
9 division of the Alabama Farmers Federation.
0 Our organization represents over four hundred
and sixty thousand members in Alabama. We
2 represent private landowners and farmers who
own and manage the majority of the wildlife
032
habitat in this state.
I'm here today to speak in favor of theproposed minimum three point buck limit in
Barbour County. Our organization through
it's policy process has endorsed this
proposal.
Our Barbour County Farmers Federation
Board representing over forty-five thousand
acres in Barbour County have unanimously
0 endorsed this proposal. Based on the data
that has been gathered from the Barbour2 County management area and studied from other
states, we have seen that this works. And we
4 feel that this rule will improve the quality
of the deer herd in Barbour County. We also
6 feel that this will benefit both small and
large landowners.
Public meetings and hunter surveys have
9 been held in Barbour County. The results
0 have shown overwhelming support for this rule. We ask that you folks endorse the
2 minimum three point buck limit in Barbour
County when the motion is made. Thank you.
033
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Guy.
Next we have Grady Hartzog, Eufaula.
MR. HARTZOG: Good morning,
Gentlemen. Can you hear me?
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I'm Grady Hartzog. I'm from Eufaula,
Alabama. I'm a lifelong resident of Barbour
County. I'm on the executive board of the
Wildlife Federation. I'm here today to ask
you to vote for the three point rule. The
0 Wildlife Federation -- y'all have a letter on
your desk where the Wildlife Federation has
2 endorsed the five year study in which to do the three point antler rule.
4 If you remember, I was here in February
before the Board and the Chamber of Commerce
6 had done a survey. Came out ninety plus
percent was in favor. The State came down,
Gary Moody and the biologists and did a
9 survey in Slyol (phonetically spelled) and
0 Clayton and Eufaula and y'all have got a copy
of those results.2 And from a biological standpoint, from a
management standpoint, the biggest thing I
034
see in this thing is the -- it's shown that
the studies that were done on management
areas, we have a tremendous increase in doe
take. We feel like that biological reason
alone is enough to pass this thing in order
to get the herds a better ratio.But I just -- you guys (inaudible) but
one of the comments that was done and y'all
have got the copies of this but it says --
0 and I think this is a good comment. It says:
Let's allow Barbour County to set the new
2 standards for the state of Alabama in
harvesting quality bucks. I'd like to just
4 ask for your support in passing this rule.
Thank you. Any questions?6 MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Hartzog.
(Whereupon, Robin indicated that the speaker
9 would need to speak into a microphone.)
0
MR. PORTER: Grady, in the handouts
2 that I've looked at that you've given us,
y'all have stated seven objectives that
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035
you're trying to achieve as stated in those
handouts.
MR. HARTZOG: The objective is how
to better help your herd. In order to do
that, allow the younger bucks to walk to
mature to get in that breeding class, the A
class in which to breed. And, also, from thenext standpoint, to reduce the doe buck
ratio. Probably Barbour County has the
0 eight/ten doe/buck ratio. And, you know,
anybody who reads any management on deer, you
2 know, the proper ratio should be one and a
half to two for one so I mean if nothing else
4 it's that doe ratio.
MR. PORTER: And the other question
6 I had that I didn't see it unless I overlooked it was what type of recordkeeping
or records in reporting do y'all recommend be
9 done to be able to measure the actual program
0 itself?
MR. HARTZOG: We have talked about
2 using statistical samples and having
different plugs to pull y'all along the way
036
just like they've done in the previousquality deer management. We feel like that
if we get enough clubs spread throughout the
county and with the deer harvesters that we
feel like the biologists can get a good
enough representative sample to determine
whether or not the public (inaudible). And
like I said, all this is is a request for a
five-year trial. If it works, it works. If
0 it doesn't, it doesn't. But if we don't try it, we know it won't ever work.
2 MR. STRICKLAND: All right. Let me
ask you a question.
4 MR. HARTZOG: Yes, sir.
MR. STRICKLAND: What kind of
6 support do you have from the local hunters?
MR. HARTZOG: When the Chamber of
Commerce -- when this first came out, what --
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9 the Barbour County Management area completed
0 the five-year study and we're proposing the
same rules that the management area uses.
2 They just published their five-year results.
In fact, that article was published in the
037
Alabama Wildlife Federation magazine. It
shows the results of doing that study.The Commissioner came down and had a
thing. That's kind of how it all got
started. When the Commissioner came down and
spoke to the Rotary Club, several Rotary Club
members said, you know, that sounds so good.
Why can't we have it countywide?
And so there were several of us that got
0 together. Ken White with the local paper ran
a couple of newspaper articles about it. We2 then funded advertising in which we just
asked people to vote on-line. With the
4 Chamber of Commerce, we used a neutral site.
And also had ballots printed in all the
6 papers in Barbour County where people could
vote the ballot. And we ended up with ninety
plus percent in favor.
9 When the State came down, when Gary and
0 Bill and all came down and did the study and we got a copy of the study they did, it was
2 tremendously -- what did it end up, Gary?
Ninety? Ninety-plus percent in favor. I
038
mean the public is behind it.
We've got -- the Chamber of Commerce
passed a resolution. You know, all the --
Mayor and everybody -- you know, everybody in
Barbour County is supporting it and behindit.
MR. STRICKLAND: Thank you.
MR. PORTER: Going back to that
last point. Just looking at the statistics
0 and it shows only eighty-eight people
responded which is, what, three tenths of one
2 percent of the entire population?
Do you have any explanation about why the
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4 public hasn't shown much interest?
MR. HARTZOG: We ended up with over
6 three hundred votes. And with the Chamber of
Commerce, it was three hundred and twenty-one
votes, the Chamber of Commerce did. One
9 thing that's probably -- I don't know this
0 but I've had several comments and all of
these were held at like 6:00 on an afternoon.2 A lot of guys with farming and that type
of stuff, you know, Daylight Savings Time,
039
were still in the field. You know, it might
have been better if we'd have done it at 7:00
o'clock or whatever. But whether we use a
three hundred vote count that the Chamber did
or just discount it, it's still ninety
percent. So statistically --MR. PORTER: Ninety percent of
those who --
MR. HARTZOG: Who attended this and
0 ninety percent of the people that voted on
the --
2 MR. PORTER: My question is: Do
you think the fact that we voted this down in
4 the last meeting had any effect on the lack
of interest in attending these meetings?6 MR. HARTZOG: No. No. There were
a lot of people -- in fact, I had asked
whether or not I could have a copy of the
9 survey to go give to people who couldn't make
0 the meetings. And we just said, well, no.
There are plenty of people that are attending
2 the meetings.
MR. PORTER: So you would agree
040with me that even the three hundred would be
a very small percentage of the people that
hunt in Barbour County?
MR. HARTZOG: Yeah. But, Jim,
statistically if you look at (inaudible), the
State of Alabama itself, the Conservation
Department, is diverting Federal funds from
one program to another on a smaller survey
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deer in this country today? Are we turning
044
it into some kind of God by number of points
on his head? Or do we need to be hunting
that deer like the Good Lord gave us the
dominion over them, taking care of our herd
and being sure they're there for our
youngsters when they come up to hunt?I want you to take a long look at this
before we pass it. It was voted down last
time and it come up again. I want you to
0 take a long look at it and see if we need to
make outlaws out of good honest hunters today
2 for leaving their deer in the woods because
it had horns on it above the hairline.
4 Do we punish our children that haven't
killed a deer? My grandson killed his first6 two deer this year. The first one was a
spike. I wouldn't have took a million
dollars for that kid's face when he killed
9 that spike. Don't take that away from our
0 youth.
I know you've already put in there that
2 the youth on the youth hunting day in Barbour
Management area will be able to shoot the
045small deer. Is that fair to the rest of the
kids that's going to hunt in Barbour County
the rest of the year that can't get down
there on that day? Stop and look at it.
We ask you to think a long time before
you pass this rule on the three pointers
because it's going to have an effect on all
of the hunting in the state of Alabama. And
I personally feel like it will take the0 average wage earner in Alabama totally out of
hunting in Barbour County.
2 Those deer down there -- and one of the
reasons I think this thing should have been
4 notified statewide, that deer, no matter
whose land it's on, belongs to everybody in
6 the state of Alabama. Not that landowner.
Not the people in Barbour County. It belongs
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to the people of the state. They need to be
9 considered before anything's passed against
0 the deer in the state of Alabama.
I just ask you to consider it and I hope
2 the vote comes up like it did before. Thank
you.
046
MR. HATLEY: Don, do you, as a dogdeer hunter, do you believe in deer
management?
MR. KNIGHT: Absolutely. To give
you an example of that, our club when dog
deer hunting goes out, we still hunt the land
the last few weeks of the year. We have a
six point or better rule on our club. We
support the program. We've not killed any
0 does those last few weeks because we figure they've been breed and we want them to have
2 those deer so we can look at them next year.
But that should be my call and the
4 landowner's call; not the State's call. We
will support all day the landowners and the
6 people leasing the land making that decision.
We do it on our club. We support that very
much.
9 And, also, I want to say one more thing.0 After I attended that meeting in Eufaula --
and I wasn't going to bring this up but I
2 just feel like it needs to be.
After I attended that meeting in Eufaula,
047
I received a phone call from an unlisted
number on my cell phone. How they got my
cell phone, I don't know. But I was told
point blank, our lease would be pulled if Icontinued to support this. And I didn't
appreciate that at all. Our lease in Barbour
County would be pulled if I came up here and
spoke. We'll, I'm here. If they want to
pull it, pull it. Thank you.
0 MR. COLES: Next on the subject of
deer management will be Mr. Howard Burns from
2 Hayden, Alabama. I beg your pardon. Excuse
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me. Mr. Ken White from Eufaula.
4 MR. WHITE: Good morning,
Gentleman. I'm Ken White. I'm from Eufaula,
6 Alabama. Y'all notice --
(Whereupon, the court reporter indicated that
9 the speaker could not be heard. Adjustments
0 to the microphone system were made.)
2 MR. WHITE: Gentlemen, I appreciate
the opportunity to come up here and talk to
048
you for just a second. I've listed mine this
morning under management, deer management,
instead of antler restrictions because I do
believe in quality deer management. I also
support the Barbour County QDM proposal.Nine years ago, I started out on a
journey that ended up with me standing here
now. And that was to try to help get Barbour
County Wildlife Management Area QDM program
0 on the line. I was one of the primary
supporters of it. I have followed it through
2 the years. And now, I was one of the ones
that asked a question.
4 Are Barbour County owners ready to make a change? Are they ready to accept the
6 challenges of QDM and are they ready to go
through the pains that QDM will cause
probably for the first year or two to get the
9 results that we saw at the Barbour County
0 Wildlife Management Area?
I don't expect those results to hold true
2 over the entire county but the improvement
that we will see I think justifies your049
positive vote for this.
I would also say this: We are looking at
this based on Barbour County Wildlife
Management Area results for Barbour County.
We know -- I know from reading and I know
from the studies that I have done and
listening to the experts, what we're
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proposing in Barbour County is not going to
work all over the state of Alabama.
0 But the proposal that is in front of you
right now is based on real data produced from
2 the Barbour County Wildlife Management Areas
for Barbour County. And I would ask for your
4 support for this QDM program. Thank you.
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. White.6 Next we will hear from Mr. Howard Burns from
Hayden, Alabama.
MR. BURNS: My subject is deer in
9 general but I wanted to address dog hunting
0 and antler restrictions. If you want me to
break that up and come back, I'll be glad to.
2 MR. COLES: Whatever you want to
do.
050MR. BURNS: I can tie it up real
short. Like I say, my name is Howard Burns
and I'm from Hayden in Blount County,
Alabama. I think that the restrictions are
just about telling somebody else what to do,
try to do with them, get them to go along
with what you want to do.
And as far as management of the deer
herd, I think that what is happening with0 antler restrictions is that they're taking
the model of the anti-dog hunters. That
2 started up in North Alabama and what happens
now is anyone who's against dog hunting has
4 stepped up here and said, oh, I've having
trouble with this dog hunter. Mark out this
6 county. Block out this county. Well -- and
we've just come on down the state.
Now you want the antler restrictions9 started in Barbour County. What's going to
0 happen there, it's going to be just flowing
right up and those two are going to meet.
2 Because taking away the rights of the public
hunter, that is not right.
051
And another thing about these polls and
statistics that they take, such a small
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percentage. Give me a statistician, I can
give you one to match that. And let me ask
you if you have ever heard a politician on
the eve of an election say that his polls
don't show that he's going to win. Those
things should be considered.
On the restrictions on the dog hunting, I
0 think we should turn everything over to our conservation department. If they see a
2 biologic need, we will comply with that.
We'll be glad to comply with that. There
4 needs to be a biologic need. Get cities,
towns involved in promoting hunting or not
6 hunting. Well, does commerce slip in there?
Does tourism come in there? What we want is
to address the needs of the public hunter.
9 And I just ask you to consider that when0 you take that vote. Back off on the
restrictions. Let us hunt. Let the
2 law-abiding citizens abide by the law and by
the guidelines set out by the conservation
052
department. We appreciate the opportunity to
speak here today.
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Burns.
Next we'll hear from Mark Craig fromHuntsville.
MR. CRAIG: Thank you. My name is
Mark Craig. I live in Huntsville in Madison
County. And I want to thank you for what
y'all do for all of us.
0 Secondly, I'm here today as a voice for a
dear friend of mine who no longer has a voice
2 or a say so in any of this. As you heard Ms.
Boyanton say earlier, I'm here today on Ben4 Boyanton's behalf.
I would ask you to look very closely at
6 the safety belt regulation on private land as
it is for management areas and State-owned
land.
9 The last thing I want anybody to get is
0 the phone call that I got from Amy saying Ben
didn't come home. Well, I called the other
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2 gentleman here with us and he and myself
drive to Jackson County up in Stevenson, get
053
there after dark and are going through the
woods with flashlights looking for a dear
friend of yours is not real fun.
And low and behold when you -- lucky we
knew where he would be, where he went all thetime. And low and behold, we got down there
and found what we had to find. And even
worse than that is having to call back and
tell someone's wife that, yes, we found him.
0 And them ask you how he is. It's very very
unpleasant. It's something that sticks with
2 you for a long time.
And I would just ask you to please
4 consider safety belt regulations on private-owned land for the state of Alabama.
6 MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Craig.
Next we'll hear from George Ellison from
Dothan, Alabama.
9 MR. ELLISON: I'm George Ellison
0 from Dothan, Alabama. I own property in
Henry County. First of all, I'd like to
2 thank the Commission and Vernon Lawley for
all the does for crossbow.054
We had asked earlier in the year for
consideration for scopes for crossbows. Same
reason that we got crossbows. And also they
be included for turkey season due to
(inaudible) that was going on before this
(inaudible) Mr. Lawley and the Board
(inaudible) induced there to let that slide
for next year.Also, I'd like to say that since a
0 certain name has been mentioned that Rick
Yeagers does not speak for the landowners in
2 Henry County.
Getting to the permit system, I'd like to
4 say that I've attended several meetings both
in Henry and other counties. I'm aware that
6 the permit system is an individual system and
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it must work for an individual area. Lot of
input, a lot of different things that apply.
9 But I can tell you that for our county,
0 Henry County, that last year the groups who
violated this permit system were restricted
2 this year. And I appreciate Commissioner and
Chief Andress for this.
055Many groups that had problems cleaned up
their acts and last year, they had no
violations whatsoever. This speaks positive
on behalf that where a permit system will
work, there are those that will recognize
this and they will respond to it.
On behalf of those who do not recognize
it who continue to violate this, it tells me
that we have in position officers. We have a0 Commissioner that would definitely react to
their attitude.
2 So I would just like to say to this
Board, I appreciate -- and, again, that I
4 know that the permit system has to be
addressed on a local level and that local
6 needs have to be met and that both sides have
to be in agreement and they need to sit down.
They do not need to wait for an eleventh hour9 reprieve.
0 And just let me say again, I appreciate
the way it's working in Henry County and I
2 appreciate the direction that we're going. I
know that there are other problems that we
056
need to work out and we're working toward
that. And I appreciate that so much and I
appreciate having the opportunity to worktowards working these problems out. Thank
you.
MR. COLES: Thank you, George.
Next we'll hear from Allen Hawkins.
MR. HAWKINS: I'm Allen Hawkins,
Cullman County, President of North Creek
0 Hunting Club. We have approximately two
thousand acres leased in the lower end of
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2 Cullman, County.
I'm very much against horn restrictions.
4 I've been president of this club for about
eighteen years. At one time, we set our own
6 restrictions four points or better on our
club. We did this for five years. In five
years' time, we had messed up four points,
9 cow horn spikes and four and five and six0 year old deer. And we went back to taking
these deer. And till this day, we are still
2 taking five and six-year-old deer cow horn
spikes.
057
And the weight we're up to after about
five years -- the weight dropped off and we'd
wait every year and record every deer. We've
done it for the past fifteen years. We couldsee what we're doing on our property and
we've managed it to the best of our knowledge
to what works for us.
Everything doesn't work for every area.
And we need to keep this up to the individual
0 landowners. And that's all I have to say.
Thank you.
2 MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins.
Next we'll hear from Dale Jones.4 MR. JONES: Good morning. My name
is Dale Jones. Again, I live in Jefferson
6 County, Alabama. I primarily hunt in
southeast Alabama. I'd like to thank our
members for being here today. Mr. Lawley,
9 I'd like to thank you for the work you've
0 done along with the Board members and our new
member. Robin, where's she at? I'd like to
2 thank her. She makes things work. If you call down there to Montgomery and you ask to
058
speak to somebody, if she tells they're going
to call you back, they're going to call you
back.
And the other officers of the
Conservation and Natural Resources we have
here today, I thank you for all that y'all
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do. We complain about y'all a lot but
everything in here would be a lot less
without you.
0 I ran for Judge last year in Jefferson
County and lost by three percent. I found
2 out how complicated things actually are in
politics. I started looking at a lot of
4 decision that Mr. Lawley has to make and the Board members. We put y'all on our prayer
6 list because you make everybody happy.
Everybody pulling at you. And you've got a
tough job. We appreciate what you do
9 although we don't always agree with you.
0 There was one point that I was wanting to
ask. I understand that the Board is going to
2 vote on what was brought up at the last
meeting. I didn't know if that was the059
understanding. I missed the last meeting.
And I didn't know that some of terms expired
on the Board members. Are they still in
voting capacity? I just didn't know who I
needed to be calling and be kissing up to.
If they ain't on the Board, it's a wasted
phone call. All right.
I've seen a lot of good things over thestate the last couple years. We've had
0 different --
MR. LAWLEY: I was just going to
2 answer your question about the Board members.
MR. JONES: Yes, sir.
4 MR. LAWLEY: The way it is that the
Board members will serve in the same capacity
6 until a replacement is named for him. The
Governor appoints members of the Advisory Board. So Mr. Harbin and Mr. Hatley will be
9 the same member they were at the last meeting
0 when the vote is passed and in whatever they
do until they're either reappointed or the
2 Governor appoints someone new.
MR. JONES: Yes, sir. Thank you.
060
Mr. Hatley, Mr. Harbin, I don't remember
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hunting or whatever other problems they had.
2 And that don't happen too often. I may not
mention his name because he may vote for
062
something I don't like later. But it
actually happened this year. And, actually,
it was Mr. Coles that did that. It don't
happen too often and we thank you for takingthe time to do that.
We've had -- I don't know why. But we've
had a lot of young people come into coon
hunting over the last couple of years. In
East Alabama where this one guy -- I went up
0 by the high school up there, there was dog
boxes in these trucks in a lot of these
2 outlying areas. Hayden -- I've seen a lot of
kids with dog boxes. They're not deer4 hunting. They're coon hunting. I don't know
why but anytime these young folks get into
6 something, that obviously goes back to
they're being encouraged somewhere and it's
good to see them there.
9 Youth Day. Thank you for Youth Day. My
0 five-year-old killed his first deer last year
on Youth Day. I don't understand why we
2 haven't had that before but it was -- Mr. Lawley done that and that was great. I'll
063
never forget that. That'll be a memory I
have the rest of my life. (inaudible) deer
out there and my five-year-old killed a
hundred and forty pound spike. It's a great
day.
But to go along with the good, we've had
some bad. I think our materialism ourselfhas never been higher than it is now. We
watch these TV shows and read these hunting
0 magazines where all you -- all that is, is
you lease the land or pay for a hunt and you
2 sit on a green field and you kill a twelve
point buck. And unfortunately, that's what
4 it's coming to.
I work with a group of attorneys -- and I
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6 said this a few years ago and you laughed but
it's not funny any more. It's normal. They
pay five thousand dollars to take their
9 family to a three-day hunt where they're
0 taken out in the morning and put into an
elevated shooting stand that has a heater and
2 internet connection. They're picked up at
lunch and then they're taken back out that064
afternoon.
That three thousand, five thousand
dollars they're spending is more than most of
the hunting clubs I know of in South Alabama
spend their entire week. And it's just
coming into a have and have not world.
I've been told this by the conservation
department for the past fifteen years.Didn't want to think it was coming to that
0 but it's getting there in a hurry.
Our timber company folks. I don't know
2 if this is the proper place to bring it up
but we've got one timber company (inaudible)
4 pull out of the State management area and
lease their land. They're going to lease it
6 to the highest bidder. They've already got a
list. A lot of them are from out of state. That's not happening because we have a bad
9 commissioner or bad people in the biology
0 department. It's because of flat out money.
And if it happens once, it's going to happen
2 over again and over. I don't know what can
be done about that but it's something that I
065
was hoping this board could put together and
study.Public opinion. We're starting to run a
lot of things by public opinion. Public
opinion -- I ran for election last year.
Public opinion is money. When I ran out of
money, I ran out of public opinion. That's
just the facts. And money is also
statistics.
0 We've got one county right now -- and I
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don't what y'all are going to do with the
2 three point restriction. I don't hunt down
there. It's none of my business.
4 But eventually you're going to have to
decide if you have one group that want the
6 three point restriction because it's going to
help the county and it's in the management
area and it's doing better. And the9 management area is doing better and there's
0 bigger deer.
You've got the other part of the county
2 including Don Knight's clubs and a lot of big
dog clubs that's killing better deer than
066
they've ever killed because they have looked
at it: We're going to keep our deer
population below the carrying capacity of theland. And they're killing bigger deer by
shooting -- basically for years, they shot
everything that they seen. Now they're
killing fewer deer but they had one deer that
was on Rick and Bubba and on TV that they
killed on their property last year.
0 So it's public opinion versus biology. I
don't know. Biology -- whichever side it's
2 on, looks like that's where we need to be going and that's one thing I'm really hereto
4 talk about today.
The deer farming. I do have a point to
6 my rambling because some of these issues --
deer farming, deer farming, deer farming is
all I'm hearing now. I'm hearing it from the
9 White-tail Institute and their magazines.
0 I'm hearing from the enclosure folks.
I'm hearing from Birmingham, the people that2 hunt enclosures and all enclosures and stuff.
Is anybody here in the deer farming business?
067
I thought we was in the conservation
business.
Deer farming business is enclosures is
basically going to be the highest bidder who
can pay for that deer. It's nobody in this
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room typically. I was hoping it was
something that could be addressed by the
Board at some point. Because it's not
happening in the legislature. I'm a
0 (inaudible) Democrat and I hate to say this
but it's crossed the line. It's a Republican
2 and Democrat issue. There's some big money
and big hands in our legislature that will4 not ever let anything be passed through our
legislature about egress or ingress of an
6 enclosure.
High land rental is just wiping out a lot
of our trailer park hunters. And I say
9 trailer park hunters. I grew up in a trailer
0 park. I can talk about it. A lot of our
hunters are blue collar, lower income white
2 collar people that five hundred, six hundred dollar a year lease and club memberships are
068
a thing of the past and they're not being
able to hunt.
It's going to come to a point that we're
going to have to make the decision whether we
want hunter access to maximize our hunter
access or do we want to maximize our land
rental and let a few people like jerkattorneys like me get to hunt while the rest
of y'all sit at home. That's a decision
0 that's going to be made shortly but it's not
being made -- it's not being made all at
2 once. It's being made piecemeal.
The anti-hunters said I'm a Democratic.
4 Folks, there's idiots in both parties and
we've had our share. I talked to some people
6 last year that are actually against hunting. The things are coming in now nationally is
the sniper rifle which is a different type of
9 a sniper rifle. But the one sniper rifle
0 that they're looking at right now is that any
rifle that can kill a person at a hundred
2 yards is a sniper rifle.
When you start banning those type guns
069
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(inaudible). They've also discussed right in
front of me about leasing land, paying
whatever it takes to lease land so nobody can
hunt on it.
Then we've also had groups that have come
down here through the past and started out
we're not anti-dog hunting. We just want
ethical hunting. Then we heard: Well, it'snot the right way to hunt deer anymore
0 (inaudible). Then we've had men dressed in
black hunting dogs on their property in the
2 middle of the night (inaudible) they're
killing all the quail.
4 So year before last, it was: Let's stop
all dog hunters.
6 MR. COLES: You've got about thirty
seconds. MR. JONES: I've got one minute.
9 I hope y'all can address some issues
0 especially the things that can be done in my
opinion right now (inaudible) y'all got out
2 that hunting enclosures is not fair taking in
the state of Alabama. If you want to have an
070
enclosure, fine. But if you did that, it
would make a lot of money on it.We should have a lottery for out of state
hunters. That would mean that they all
pitched in their ticket and bought a ticket
before and then you can draw out their names
there close to the season and let them hunt
and that would at least let us have the first
right to lease the land. The Education for
0 the public is not being done. And, again,
please don't run this stuff by public2 opinion.
The other thing is we've had complaints.
4 If we're going to stop a certain group of
hunting by complaints especially when they're
6 not verified or because we have illegal
hunters, then you're going to stop all
hunting because you have baiting. You have
9 poaching. You have spotlighting. And if
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0 that's the basis y'all are going to use to
stop people from hunting, you're going to
2 have to stop all of it.
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
071
At each meeting, we alternate those that want
to speak for dog deer hunting and those who
want to speak in opposition. At thisparticular meeting, we will hear those in
opposition to dog hunting. And our first
speaker will be Jana Clark from Addison.
ROBIN: And I'm sorry about the
microphone. We turned the air up and now we
can -- I know a lot of y'all can't hear.
0 MS. CLARK: I'm Jana Clark.
2 (Whereupon, Board members and the court reporter indicated that the speaker could not
4 be heard. Adjustments to the microphone
system were made.)
6
MS. CLARK: I'm Jana Clark. I'm
from Addison, Alabama. I'm a landowner and
9 last year we received a restriction on dog
0 deer hunting and I would just like to thank
all of you who supported it. It was a lot2 better last year.
072
(Whereupon, Board members and the court
reporter indicated that the speaker could not
be heard. Adjustments to the microphone
system were made.)
MS. CLARK: Okay. My name is JanaClark and I'm from Winston County. And I'm a
landowner and a hunter. And last year we
received a restriction on dog hunting. And
0 I'd just like to thank you for your support
and tell you that last year was a lot better
2 than years past. Thank you.
MR. COLES: Next we'll hear from
4 Noble Holland. Coffee County.
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0 in Lamar County. We had substantiated
complaints countywide. The warden followed
2 up (inaudible) and we had four convictions.
I'm sure some of y'all have heard the same
4 story, different place. That's statewide,
same story, different face. But I would like
6 to truly thank each and every one of you for
the ban that we received in Lamar County. It's better. It truly makes a difference.
9 There are some renegades that are still
0 running and they are saying that they are
rabbit hunting. (inaudible) what anybody
2 else says about that. They are claiming that
they're rabbit hunting. There were
075
sixty-nine complaints in Macon County and
zero arrests. But with that being said, Iwant to thank you each one of you for making
things better.
MR. COLES: Next we'll hear from
Faye Thompson from Skipperville.
MS. THOMPSON: Good morning,
Commissioner Lawley and Board Members. We're
here today on behalf of Dale County
0 landowners (inaudible) vote to ban dogs in
the northeast corner of Dale County. We are2 looking forward to regaining control of our
property.
4 You are to be commended for the time and
effort donated so freely to help the citizens
6 of this state with their conservation and
material resource issues. Thank you.
MR. COLE: Next we'll hear from
9 James Dennison of Wetumpka.
0 MR. DENNISON: Well, I'm James Dennison from Wetumpka, Alabama. Can y'all
2 hear me?
All right. When I talk about deer
076
hunting and everything, I think it should be
let alone. If you want to shoot a three
point or above or a six, make it to each
individual.
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And I'm a dog hunter and I'll tell you
what. These people that comes up here on
these complaints, they should have a -- ain't
it a public record where they filed
complaints? Or so many people that, you
0 know, was convicted or something for
trespassing, talking, you know, about the
2 dogs or something. Could they do that and bring y'all the proof? Instead of coming
4 down here and -- well, I ain't got no proof
in my pocket either.
6 But if you wanted -- like I say, if they
want to shoot a three point or above on one
side, let them shoot. Don't make me have to
9 do that. It's hard for me to pick one that
0 might have one on the other side.
And I wanted to go to about the turkey2 hunting. Making the turkey hunter see a
half-inch spur. That would be pretty hard to
077
do, wouldn't it? You can't do it. But I
guess I'm through. Thank you.
MR. COLES: Next is Joy Grubbs from
Piedmont.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's passing.
MR. COLES: She's passing? Ourgood friend Mr. Wynnton Melton, Geneva,
Alabama.
MR. MELTON: Thank you. Always
0 good to be here. I have followed this Board
around for about thirty-five years now and I
2 must say this is the first place I've ever
been in where speed's considered to be a good
4 thing. But it's always interesting and you
learn a lot. I am Geneva County of6 representative Fleming Farm Hunter's Club
which is primarily a dog hunting club. We
also hunt (inaudible). Some black powder and
9 just all the methods but I have for these
0 many years being in support of hunting with
dogs regardless of the (inaudible) pursuing.
2 And I've seen a lot of the same things over
and over again.
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078
But, you know, all of the hullaboo that's
going on in England now. They did stop the
deer, the fox and the hare hunting in
England. And it's been just really really
hubaloo going on over there and arguing for
some time now, for several years. And, of
course, that's probably the oldesttraditional area for hunting with hounds that
we're familiar with.
0 However, it goes back to the Mesopotamian
era about seven thousand years ago and
2 (inaudible) Europeans brought their hounds
over and into this country. George
4 Washington, Thomas Jefferson. They were all
great hounders. It's a grand sport. It's
6 been there for many many years and I just want to see us continue all of the good hound
hunting sports.
9 Now we are under a permit system in
0 Geneva County which we voluntarily went to
and it helped with the -- we sat down with
2 all sides of the issue. Those that were
opposed to the dog deer hunting, those that
079
supported it and the middle mediator to tryto chisel out something that will work for
all of us and it's working fairly well.
(inaudible) a couple problems that are very
difficult to always have and that comes with
always having the dogs under control.
Intent needs to be laid somewhere some
way and the extent of the abuse needs to be
there some way because if you ever release a
0 hound, you're not sure what he's going to do. No matter how well trained he is, no matter
2 how disciplined you are, the dog can get away
and if a dog just rumbles up to somebody's
4 (inaudible) and they're anti and they're on a
crusade, they get the dog, they call the game
6 warden. You've got to go retrieve the dog.
And issues can come up because people are
very sensitive about their hunting dogs as
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9 they are about their land.
0 We talk about landowner. Everybody's a
landowner, well, representing all the various
2 sports (inaudible) as far as arguing back and
forth in Geneva County.
080
We had a hearing before the Commissioner
where there was an effort made to put it onthe ballot. We did a poll. I just don't
think that's the way to handle this issue.
But just as soon as they had the room, the
dog hunters we could put three thousand acres
of land right there. So dog hunters own
land. Non-dog hunters own land. All kind of
people own land. So it's not a fair decision
0 to make to give (inaudible).
In closing, just two observations. One2 is on quality deer management. I don't think
there's anybody that doesn't appreciate the
4 need for some type of deer management but I
can tell you this but I can't (inaudible) our
6 own views and observations in Geneva County.
Since the Oakman hunting, in other words,
the doe harvest year round, in our club,
9 we're (inaudible) what I consider to be
0 quality bucks. I consider that to be a full time buck deer six points or better as a
2 quality deer.
Just trying to raise the deer just to
081
raise the antlers as Don mentioned earlier
just where you can have something to put on
your wall to brag about both reduces the
value of the animal and reduces the value of
the sport down to nothing but money and egosand pride. And these are the things the
animal rights people the anti (inaudible)
more than any other one thing.
In our particular case, where we have
0 harvested more does, we are harvesting more
quality bucks. Quality bucks being again six
2 points or better. So the open harvest seems
to work better than the selective harvest to
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4 me. Just an observation of watching some
that have tried to put in the eight pointer
6 or better system.
They aren't killing any deer at all.
They have taken this thing so far that
9 they're afraid to shoot a deer, afraid
0 they'll offend their buddies, afraid they'll
offend anybody. Well, we're out there and2 we're killing the heck out of them and we're
killing more better deer every year.
082
So it seems to me that the open hunting
is working better in our days than the
selective harvesting.
One other thing that is neither here or
there. But isn't it great that we have
turkeys in Geneva County? We had no turkeysten years ago. Somebody said they saw a
turkey. Said: You're blind man. It's
another buck.
0 We had no turkeys. We have turkeys,
turkeys and more turkeys in Geneva County.
2 Great turkey hunting in Geneva County so if
y'all want to find a good place to go turkey
4 hunting, come on down to Geneva County and
we'll show you some turkeys that we thought6 were foreign animals just a few years ago.
Again, thank you for all that you do. We
hope that you will continue to hear all views
9 and all ideas and use profound judgement.
0 And always remember that everybody is against
something. Everybody is for something. Find
2 that middle ground but the best middle ground
is that which takes away the rights of
083nobody. Thank you.
MR. COLES: Next we'll hear from
Derrel Murkerson.
MR. MURKERSON: First of all, I'd
like to thank you very much for your time.
My name is Derrel Murkerson. I'm from
Calera, Alabama.
There's a couple of issues that I'd like
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to address. Number one, the reason that I
0 have this child with me, I provided you with
three pictures. In one of those pictures,
2 there's a cow horn spike that my
five-year-old killed the same weekend that
4 Don Knight's grandson killed his first deer.
If you're going to limit, what you're telling
6 me is these kids can not kill a deer (inaudible). I can say this.
I have children ranging from twenty-two
9 to three. I have dog hunted all my life. I
0 have deer hunted all my life. My father is
eighty years old with Alzheimers. I take him
2 so that he can still enjoy what he has left
on this earth.
084
The things that you're trying to imposeon people to do, the three point rule, we're
running into a problem. People talk about
statistics. I'm going to talk about reality.
I'm a retired police officer. I did accident
reconstruction. Is there anyone that has
ever seen a deer go through a car and kill an
incident child? That's an overwhelming
feeling.
0 If you're going to limit this, you're going to produce some problems. Who's going
2 to carry the liability? Is the State of
Alabama because the deer herd's too large?
4 Are we going to go into a point where we're
like Oak Mountain where the deer are dying
6 out?
We killed more deer this year in our club
-- and I believe you also saw the picture of
9 the twenty-four point that's laying on my dog0 box with her and I. That's one of the
biggest deer killed in this state.
2 We are doing everything we can to be
proper. And people that will not allow us to
085
manage ourselves and dictate to us where
we're voting citizens ourselves are not
ethical. Okay.
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overpopulation. We're going to be just like
087
what they're doing in Montgomery County.
We're going to paying our taxes to clear off
the edge of the