Episode 10: The 7 Circuits of Emotion: What Animals Can Teach Us about Human

Relating (Get Your Squeak On)

FILE NAME : Episode 10.mp3

Length of file : 00:32:06

Speaker 1 : Announcer

Speaker 2 : Ann Kelley

Speaker 3 : Sue Marriott

Speaker 4 : Patty Olwell

[00:00:00]

[AUDIO BEGINS] [Episode 10 Draft Complete 1.mp3]

Announcer: Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. A podcast where therapists freely speak their minds about real life matters.

Ann: Hi. Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. This is Ann Kelley and I’m here with my co-host, Sue Marriott, and Patty Olwell and before we get start on today’s episode I’m just going to do a little shout out to an upcoming episode that we have where we are going to be interviewing Stan Tatkin. Some of you might recognize his name and if not you might be interested in listening to one of his more recent books: Your Brain on Love. A great read on how relationships, attachment and brain science all go together. And we are going to be interviewing him and if you have any thoughts or questions you want pass on to us, let’s us know.

So for today’s episode I’m really excited. I think it’s going to be a lot of fun. We are going to have a dynamic discussion on what we call, the seven circuits of emotions and to put that layman's terms...what we are going to be talking about is how we can understand human activity and human interactions based on what’s core to us and we can discover more deeply with research that we do on animals and translating that type of research that we do in brain science and animal brain and how they relate to our own that crosses cultures and how we can use that information to understand our current relationships. So, from that let’s get started.

Sue: Hey, guys. I have a really fun topic for today. There is a Neuroscientist, his name is Jaak Pansaap and his book is Affective Neuroscience. And what is really interesting and I think different than what we talked about so far is that his research has been primarily on mammals. He is know as the Rat Tickler.

Patty: I love that [Laughter 0:02:02]Sue: And he has found some really interesting things related to attachment that we can apply to adult attachment and relationship and our understanding of ourselves that is related to brain

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science. So, what I want to do, is just go over what’s some of the findings are about rats and mice and cats and things like that and see if we can make something of it. That sounds good.

Patty: Sure. Let’s do it.

Sue: Okay. So the idea is what he was…what he...this brilliant man did (and he is going to be in our resources of course so that you can follow up), but he found eight neuro circuits in the brain that were related to emotion and by this it’s across... it doesn’t matter where you live, it’s universal, it doesn’t matter how old you are and get this, it doesn’t matter what species you are. So, and it’s very deeply embedded in the brain, so you can find an electrode and you can put deep, it’s when your amygdala and your hypothalamus and if you are following this podcast, you will be able to envision where that is, it’s not in the cortigal, cortal…help he say this to you Cortisol areas…

Patty: Cortical…

Sue: Cortisol is a whole different [Multiple Speakers 0:03:22]…

Ann: Yes, Cortisol is just what you got when you said Cortisol (laughter).

Sue: And so in other words, it’s not higher thinking and when you get in and put in electrode on this different...I want you to think like a circuit of lights, right, whether they would be holiday lights, you plug them in and the whole strand comes on. So, this emotion networks are, once you get stimulated in a particular way, the whole networks comes and you begin to respond in this way. So, if you want a cat for example to get really pissed off, really angry and scawl...

Patty: I never want a cat get really angry [Multiple Speakers- laughter 0:04:02]

Sue: it’s actually very easy to do because they are a predator and it’s easy to find and one of the networks is called the rage network and that’s where predatory behavior is found, and it’s…and you just…as soon as if the cat can they teach the cats to be able to turn these networks o ff and on. And what they want to do is to teach them to turn them off …. But let me go through them really quickly and will go back and talk to them okay. So, the seven networks are, the first one is Seeking and seeking has to do with when we are searching for something food, something like that. So, it’s like that hunt and find feeling and again this is all animals, all species, all people.

Patty: Is it all animals or mammals?

Sue: All mammals I’m sorry with the higher cortical.

Patty: Got it.

Sue: So, what’s interesting about it, but it made me think about like the seeking and it’s related to Dopamine and it made me think about how we seek things on our phone.

Patty: Right.

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Sue: That there is a searching quality of like “Is there anything there yet? Is there anything there!?” and “am I needed?”, you know, so that is sort of the updated model of Seeking.

Ann: We don’t think of that as animistic behavior. That’s what I think is, what gets you excieted and me excited about this topic is that sometimes you are really discovering how much what we think is higher order…

Sue: Right.

Ann: Is this actually this really base line, primitive....

Sue: Primitive.

Ann: Primitive things that we are responding to, so it’s not as conscious as we think.

Patty: So, Sue are you telling me that every time I check I turn to see how many listeners download our podcast [Laughter 0:05:36]…

Sue: that’s Seeking behavior (laughter).

Sue: You’re no different than the rats [Laughter 0:05:41] for foraging food and then when you see a hit, you get the dopamine rush and it reinforces that seeking behavior. So seeking-anticipation, desire….. The second one is Rage, I mean rage, which I have already mentioned now that doesn’t mean rage like psycho killer, it really is more like even frustration..like if you restrain someone that’s what basically if you think about that neurocircuit that light strand that’s what’s going to be activated…

Ann: Indignation.

Sue: Indignation. It’s exactly right. So, these little mice, what he did was he put these mice and did the different electrodes and you can turn the electrode off or on depending on if it’s pleasurable or not and so there is three of them that they wanted to turn on and in their reward centers. And those…

Ann: Are you talking about rats? The rats have a desire to turn them on and do behaviors that will create that pathway…

Sue: That’s right.

Ann: To stimulate the pathway.

Sue: So, this isn’t, what’s the word, anthropomorphization. This isn’t us projecting our human characteristics on the animals, this is actual animal study whether they can, you know, repeat the behavior if they wanted or they can turn it off if they want it, the electrode. And those are Seeking, they love seeking, Play is another one that they really enjoy you put in an electrode on the play network and it lights up and they want, they hit the lever hit the lever, hit the lever, hit

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the lever, they love it ...that’s like rough and tumble play, it’s spontaneous play, it is not sitting in front of a computer playing a video game, it doesn’t light up the play circuits. And one of the, he was actually very interested in play in rats, and that’s why he was called the Rat ticker, because he learned to make them squeak and…

Ann: Express pleasure.

Sue: And one hand he would tickle with and in one hand he would just pet and they would always prefer the tickle hand, and they would nip at the other hand, which was actually a request for play. So, that’s sort of an interesting side note. So, I was talking about the ones that are reward … Lust, so that is, you know, copulation, it’s sex, it’s also seeking to meet, its basically when the little rat…

Patty: It’s the courtship.

Sue: Exactly, when the rats get a little randy [Laughter]

Sue: So if you feel a little randy. Basically, it sets off of the whole neuro-chemical flood where those behaviors are associated with thoughts and actions.

Sue: Care, there is a Care network where nurturing turns on. It’s very natural that your heart opens up and you, let’s begin the topic. So, I’m mentioning the ones that are the reward. When these electrodes are on, they want to keep hitting the little lever and keep having it happen.

Sue: So, what were those four: Seeking, Play, Lust and Care love it. They really…

Ann: I hit the lever for those too [Laughter 0:09:48].

Sue: That’s a lot of lever hitting! So, how do we turn on those networks and what network and someone else turns on what network in you?

Patty: Well, before you go there…I’m curious because you have done six and they are eight.

Sue: Right, right. And so, the pleasure ones that I have already mentioned Seeking, Play, Lust and Care. And then, the ones that if you turn these on they will do anything to turn the electrode off, its un-pleasurable typically is Rage, which I have already mentioned and Fear.

Patty: Okay.

Sue: Now, Fear is made of two different kinds of fear. It’s also like when there is pain, foreboding, kind of dread, those kinds of feelings. But, there is Fear as in predator, as the predator is going to eat me, that kind of fear. And then, there is also fear related to separation distress.

Patty: Ah..Okay.

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Sue: And then there are two different kinds, so I want to come back to that because there are some very interesting chemical...you asked about chemical things earlier and I really didn’t quite get to it and I want to get back to that in just a second. And then, I want to get to the last of the seven which is Panic-loss and that goes back to the separation distress.

Sue: So, to more easily summarize this, you put a little electrode in a little rat, the little poor mice and you separate it from its family and it will make a little distress call. Is there anybody know that sounds like?

Patty: [Annn! Annn! sound 0:11:21]

Sue: That’s pretty good [laughter].

Sue: So, distress turns on what network?

Patty: Panic-loss?

Sue: Yes! Panic loss is the distress. So, basically when those species when your same species is -that network, the separation network - the distress signal is turned on, it turns on your nurturing network. So, the stress- you get where I’m going with this, right?

Patty: Yes.

Sue: Vulnerability turns on nurturing..!

Ann: So, what we are talking about is.. all the way from, what I am understanding is, all the way down to the rats, how much of this is instinctual in us and part of our mammal…

Sue: It’s hardwired.

Ann: Hardwired mammal nature in us.

Sue: Yes.

Ann: That when one hits the other one does, it’s not all conscious thinking and its…

Sue: And it’s the opposite of the conscious thinking.

Ann: It’s the opposite, it’s really instinctual in us. And the seeking of the pleasure and avoidance of those that create distress in us is so automatic and without any forethought in it. We are just going to book more of that, as we get into more of how we were relate as humans, but I love talking about it specifically just as animals.

Patty: I also think that anybody who has been on our plane with the crying baby and can’t do anything about it.

Ann: Exactly.

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Patty: Totally understands that there is something going off in their body.

Sue: Very, as a matter of fact they use that to punish prisoners…. as they will play on loud speakers a crying infant and it really is torture to not be able to help and respond to the crying infant.

Ann: Yes, imagine especially if you hear it and you can’t respond to the distress [multiple speakers 0:13:09] which is what we all feel on a plane [Laughter 0:13:13].

Sue: Well, unless the rage network turns on

Patty: Oh! well [Laughter 0:13:15].

Ann: Some people’s nurturance kicks on... [laughter]

Sue: Most naturally when you see an elderly person or someone struggling naturally you don’t have to fake it, you don’t, it’s a very natural response of the care network will generally turn on. So, one in the ways if you want to your partner to be softer with you or be nice is you turn on your vulnerability and your distress.

Ann: Are you saying that the rage network doesn’t necessarily immediately signal the nurturance network. The elbows are not connected the…[laughter].

Sue: You are right on it. So, exactly where I’m going, because guess what rage turns on…?

Ann: I would think fear.

Patty: Fear.

Sue: Rage, and loss. Rage turns on rage. So, how he generally talks about that it is rage, begets rage, distress begets nurturance. So, those are big take homes and they are really hard to do especially depending on your attachment status, right. Because if you are one of us who is more avoidant, and used to being stoic and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, you are not going to necessarily get the benefit and of that natural care network right?

Patty: Right.

Ann: And then, I think it’s a such a great point too because, what can happen is that based on attachment and we will get more deeply into that as we go and we have to have some really deep podcast on that idea of attachment and is that your network that maybe going off for you is panic or loss that you are response based on and that’s your…your more primitive. But, based on your attachment that may manifest in you as coming out as a little dismissive about and caring but that doesn’t mean internally your experience not experiencing the panic or the loss. So, when you are admitting something that doesn’t been elicit care network back and but its really what you are needing and wanting even if you don’t know it, but because of the attachment you can only admit the feeling of dismissiveness of get away and that actually often ends up being what you received, the distancing which promotes them…

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That the world is on safety world.

Sue: You are exactly, exactly right on. And I would even go further to say that’s true and reversed too that when we have preoccupied attachment or anxious attachment that, that distress that separation distress can go so high that it can be quite frightening and it's hard to reach and it's hard to see it, so that its not turning on the care network either.

Sue: Its stimulating on the baby on the [Laughter 0:16:07].

Patty: So, I want to, I want to interject you just for listeners who have been listening to our attachment podcast that attachment is pretty much the template, template you from with your parents usually, are your caretakers when you are little of what the relationship looks like. And so, we talk about the lot, you hear it a lot on the podcast but…

Ann: That’s helpful.

Sue: Yeah, you think about it just kind of like software. It’s the software that’s been installed and it affects the hardware, the hardware affects the software and the software affects the hardware.

Ann: So, you are talking about the seven circuits being the hardware and the attachment being the software that gets installed?

Sue: That’s exactly right. This is actually, its like a neuroscience map of attachment and that’s how that they are billing it, its very, very powerful system.

Now, here is another really cool thing just before we go or before we doing a little bit more applied stuff. Is that there are three, you would really about add the neuro chemicals there are three neuro chemicals that are related to this. When we are in separation to stress, so if go back to the…this is what we are feeling alone like the feeling are associated lonely or isolated we are separated from our pack we are…there has been a loss those kinds of things right. Now, translate to modern day couples your person hasn’t texted you when you want them to [Laughter 0:17:42]. You can’t quite find them, you know, we have…

Patty: Ours.

Sue: They have been out longer than expected.

Ann: You are doing the seeking behavior?

Sue: You will be getting well, that’s okay.

Ann: Its on the phone.

Sue: There are so many things to say about this. Actually, one of the things about that if you rage can actually be enjoyable if it’s seeking, if the rage combined with seeking is more predatory

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behavior which can be more pleasurable. Rage associated with more passive feeling of just anger and something happening to you very, very negative experience.

Ann: Right.

Patty: Fear associated this is where I was going to with the neuro chemicals fear I think I’m sorry, separation distress associated like first you get separation distress, I mean first you get separated and then you feel loss and scared and then you are…what should have happened is you express the stress, right and you cry. Crying is good, from this perspective. But, if you do that over and over and you don’t, that need doesn’t get met, you begin to weep and that’s seeking the crying just like your point and it’s a great one the crying is seeking, it’s how the best with we can do with that point. So, we are seeking and then if the seeking is met then that systems stays intact and its works really well that’s what security attachment looks like. But, if it’s not met, we inhibit seeking and if we inhibit seeking, then that is actually a precursor for depression because we just going to helplessness.

Ann: So, you are talking about it as…really starting with the basis of an infant.

Sue: Yes.

Ann: And an infant learning that their seeking behavior is not going to be matched and not going to be met, on it because…I mean not probably never but on a consistent basis.

Sue: More than right.

Ann: More than and so, they learn then that seeking doesn’t provide the security of what their needing and it doesn’t have both caretaking and care. So, with that disconnect than that is likely to be a precursor to helplessness or feelings that can manifest into depression. And that if you have that optimism into that, that can be repeated in and manifest as an adult and adult ways might be not too crying. But, that, that outcome of depression is not in common?

Patty: Well, then other thing that I’m curious about it is, it seems like before you got to helplessness you should turn on the rage system because you are frustrated right and you didn’t get what you wanted?

Sue: Well, now see and that moves us we were beginning to talk about avoiding the attachment or that you give up and you turn off seeking. But, if we are still angry about it, than that moves this on the sort of the preoccupied attachment where that there is, you are there but I’m made that you weren’t there and you know, that we get more activated. So, that’s interesting and then but I keep mentioning in your chemicals there are three in your chemicals that can turn off the separation distress. And the first one interestingly is opiates. Oh! that if you give it, so puppies for example this is really research that its crunch where the research but puppies will cry when they are separated from naturally we will cry. And then, they actually they use to stopped researching puppies and they went to search researching guinea pigs because of guinea pig do have attachment distress cries rats don’t by the way. But, the guinea pig do and the, you give

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them opiates and they will settle down and they stopped seeking. So, that’s really interesting will be in the think about addiction that the loop becomes totally a one person…

Patty: Project.

Ann: One person loop.

Sue: Right. You meet the need by yourself with the opiates and we put these natural opiates, but this, you know, so opiates are the one way of turning the way after distress system. The other one is Oxytocin. So, when you get the bonding hormone, which we talked before about another podcast where you get gazes, where its particularly turned on a of course in child birth and…

Ann: Breast feeding mothers.

Sue: Feeding and levers and organism and all these things that will turn off separation distress. And then, the third one also interesting is Prolactin. And that is what turns on in order to your milk let down in to be able to nurse.

Ann: Right.

Sue: And so, to me that’s related to the response when you hear the stress and this is probably TMI but I will share with you anyway.

Sue: But, after I gave birth to my child, and I was still nursing and I would be sitting in session as a therapist, and if the client is really good at the distress signal and I could really feel their…another squeak like the something…

Patty: The deep, deep venerability.

Sue: The deep venerability I could feel it in my chest, you know, I could literally feel the let down.

Ann: Right. The Prolactin

Sue: The Prolactin and it was that powerful. And what was really beautiful about that if that was happening between us its just all good, because obviously I’m not going to nurse them. Let’s just be clear.

Ann: However, I was.

Patty: But, your care circuits were totally activated

Ann: Oh, it was full of loving. And so that will turn off the distress signal Prolactin, Oxytocin and Opiates.

Ann: To how we relate that and its…there is so much, there is just a wealth of topics that we can go from here to talk about thinking the adult manifestation of these types of activations in our

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bodies and our partners and we have done a lot of talking about that but to bring it into this topic, you know, we and our partners in distress and the only way that we are expressing it is through maybe indignation or rage. And then, we feel really disappointed when our partner doesn’t actually let down and become nurturing automatically and instead they match us through rage, we forget that’s an instinct, it isn’t necessarily a choice. And so it’s to be aware that is really, really important on both ends because you actually can or mindfully really be aware of that if you are the receiver of the rage, you don’t have to go into instinct we are not rats we do have some ability to rise above our instincts with the way that we can perceive things and having safety and trust in our relationship and we will talk more about that but just to bring it back to that again if you are approaching your partner with indignation about something that you feel like is really, really vital and important and then your partner actually response back to defensively and with rage back it really searching up for that metal on metal feeling that people, you know, just couple can have.

Sue: Well, totally you are right on. And another way that I think of it is like just and going back and looking them that cats naturally typically will chase, will stock and chase and kill rats this goes your point of this isn’t yes, its hard wired but also its affected by environment. But, cats that raised with the mouse will be his best friend. And will overcome that impulse so going applying that idea and this idea of plasticity and they ever changing in mind that is very hopefulness and is that we always cheer here that so on one hand the partner who is receiving the indignation I mean if you are getting the anger back then being able to be aware that, oh, well, I probably just through rocks I’m getting rocks back and that’s helpful. But also if you are getting a rock thrown at you, and if you are in a better state of mind, you know, the ideal response would be to recognize that the rage circuit is on. And there must be a very primitive deep sense of violation or indignation or of something that feels really fundamentally identify threatening to be throwing the rock to begin with. And so, we can end around the whole thing because if that need is responded to first of like I can see how upside you are or something like that than we are going to bypass this more primitive system.

Patty: What I love is thinking about this in mammals because if you think about dogs and I have always had dogs and when one dog is aggressive, the other dog often turns the belly and goes to the submissive.

Ann: Yes.

Patty: So, instead of meeting the aggression with anger which they are going to have, you know, rage, biggest rage right.

Ann: Yes.

Patty: But, instead of meeting it that way, they lion it back and they show venerability, they turn on the…the care networks according to your theory right. And so, the other dog, you know, plays with does something different other than, you know, bit their neck.

Sue: Right. I think that then you see that happening in the dogs birth right?

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Ann: Yes.

Sue: Like its showing your belly is a really great way to reduce aggression.

Patty: When, so when thinking is on our relationships with their parents and with their kids with their, lovers, whatever, whoever it is, that when you talked earlier about venerability turns on care, you know, really internalizing the idea that, you know, being able to be venerable even when things are rough.

Sue: That’s right.

Patty: We’ll leverage our biology and really encourage whoever you are having the hard time with to be caring.

Ann: That’s right. So, all you avoid in something they are listening to this. I said, recovering of violent, this is our task people we are all going to do this together, okay. We are going to turn our belly, we are going to rollover and expose our belly, that’s going to be our personal work, that’s my personal challenge to you. And for all of those that might go to the ceiling which I also not have everything that personal work would be to sort of maintain and keep yourself take yourself seriously, and you don’t have to go all the way to the ceiling because that’s going to scare the person that you are trying to talk to and that if you can say it, in a…common way with less words you are probably going to be have a better effect.

Patty: Or even if you can’t, you know, and that’s where the part that sometimes you just can’t because of your, we are talking about your software and sometimes its hardware and you are going to the ceiling because there is a threat is hit and you can’t help but keep going to the ceiling and going to ceiling. If you can just had the awareness of two things one that you are going to the ceiling and that really difficult so you are looking as I’m talking about parkers internally rather than what did you, what happened in your world that you made you go to the ceiling, you are going to wait and when I get started off.

Ann: I’m flipping out.

Patty: I’m flipping out. But, we are going to do the whole podcast, and that’s upcoming that you making me flip out to have [Laughter 0:29:19]

Sue: Exactly.

Patty: Flipping out and you remember that, and then also remember that if you are flipping out is really difficult for your partner to give their nurturing response, and it doesn’t mean they can’t and then they and they won’t and they won’t try. But, when it doesn’t happen, that hopefully this podcast if nothing you get out of it, you really recognize how much of this is basic and instinctual and that we start hopefully to give ourselves and a little bit of a break in that dynamics and go oh, my gash and I’m know I’m freaking out.

Sue: Its not me, its my amgydala.

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Patty: Its not me. We are going to get t-shirts…

Sue: Its not me, its my amygdala.

Ann: Well, it is biology and the nice thing about that is even if you are on the receiving end of it, you can have a little bit of room to go this isn’t personal. This is really, some pretty hardwired, you know, systems that are going off and my partners or my parents or my kids are responding to. And, you know, it just gives you a little space to not take it personally.

Sue: And we need that.

Patty: If we are think its back of our brands and we are going wow.

Ann: This reminds me of…and upcoming episodes that we are going to be doing regarding the language of security and knowing your language of security, language of love is a beautiful thing and there is a book that I think there is a lot of couple if we haven’t got a lot out of it and it's actually quite related there is a different way of speaking to it. But, knowing your partner's language of security and thinking about maybe in the context of these seven circuits that you might be able to think, oh, my partner and my child they tend to go to the ceiling or they tend to turn around way knowing your partner’s language of security can go a long way and how you interact with it. And how it manifest between the two of you, but we will come back to that.

Sue: All right. Well thanks for listening we appreciate you and I’m sticking with us through the end, what we would love for you to do if is to sign up for our email lists so that we can stay in touch with you and to share this podcast freely. And since you are still with us perhaps you have found the valuable and we would love our rating and review wherever you get your podcast.

Announcer: Therapist Uncensored is Ann Kelley, Patty Olwell, and Sue Marriott. Cameron Lindsey edits the show.

[AUDIO ENDS] [Episode 10 Draft Complete 1.mp3]

[00:32:06]

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