Exclusive interview from Syed Zaid Hamid on his memoirs ‘From Indus to Oxus’

Translated by Syeda Qudsia Mashhadi

[Transcript of an interview from Defence and Political Analyst, Syed Zaid Hamid, on his memoirs, ‘From

Indus to Oxus’. Aired on 21st January 2012, program ‘Gustakhi Maaf’ on Waqt TV.]

Host: Today we have with us Mr. Zaid Hamid, who needs no introduction. We will

talk to him about his book, ‘From Indus to Oxus’.

Thank you, for joining us in this show, Sir. My first question is: you say that Pakistan

supported Hikmat Yar and ignored Ahmad Shah Masood. What was the reason for

this?

ZH: The policy makers of that time are answerable for this blunder. In that conflict in

Afghanistan when jihad was going on against Soviet Union, there were six

organizations. It was called the Six-Party Alliance and was Peshawar based. It had one

Tajik party of Ustad Burhan-un-Din. Ahmad Shah belonged to this party. The rest of

the parties were Pashtun. Ustaad Burhan-un-Din Rabbani was not given that respect

in Pakistan which should have been accorded to him. Pashtuns were dominant. In the

ten years of Afghan jihad, Ahmad Shah Masood did not come to Pakistan. There was

nobody here to represent him. Hikmat Yar was strongly promoted by Pakistani

parties, in particular, by Jamaat-e-Islami. They were Peshawar-based and had strong

relations with Pakistan’s establishment, as well as a strong PR. These factors

influenced the policy makers of that time. There was no contact whatsoever with

Ahmad Shah Masood but Hikamt Yar was in Peshawar at that time. Masood was Tajik

whereas Hikamat Yar was Pashtun. Majority of the ground assets that were handling

Pakistan-Afghanistan relations, were Pashtuns, and Pashtun nationalism also got

involved there which shouldn’t have. Pakistan should have thought about its interests

and should have kept cordial relationship with all Mujahideen groups. The

Badakhshan province where Tajiks live is on Chitral’s side.

Host: Give one particular reason, why Masood was ignored?

ZH: As I mentioned already that Pashtuns had dominance in all the matters at that

time.

Host: You mean that the policy adopted by Pakistan to solve Afghanistan’s problems,

deprived some elements on ethnic basis and that resulted in the creation of

extremist elements?

ZH: There were no extremist elements at that time. Jalal-ud-din Haqqani, Hikmat Yar

and Mullah Umar, none of them are extremists according to the Afghan perspective.

They are Afghan Mujahideens.

Host: But you reiterated that they could come from the North and captured Kabul.

Why nobody followed this advice that you gave to not send Hikmat Yar from South?

ZH: At that time, Benazir was in power and Americans had left Afghan jihad. Soviet

Union had withdrawn from the region. Pakistan had a great opportunity to install the

government of Six-party Alliance in Afghanistan. I hold the DG ISI of that time,

General Asad Durrani responsible for this and I have mentioned this incident in my

book. I met him as a representative of Afghan Mujahideen and delivered the

message that he should not ignore Ahmad Shah Masood at a time when Hikmat Yar

was trying to capture Kabul from the South and Masood from the North. It was

important that these two united. If Pakistan had made an effort to unite these two,

they would have united, but we ignored Masood. I am a witness of all that transpired

as I communicated this message to General Durrani myself and I have quoted this in

my book as well. These are historical mistakes for which we have to suffer for

centuries. Today, whatever troubles that Pakistan faces in Afghanistan are due to

faulty decisions of the policy makers of that time. Their policy was to support Hikmat

Yar and abandon Ahmad Shah Masood. This is such a grievous thing that my heart

bleeds because of it. That is why, I wrote this book, so that we may not repeat those

same mistakes in Afghanistan that we did in the 90s.

Host: Do you think that the pro-Masood elements are being supported by RAW, US

or NATO against Pakistan now?

ZH: Let me give you a little perspective of the situation for those who have not read

the book yet. We started supporting Hikmat Yar against Ahmad Shah Masood before

the fall of Kabul which was in 1992. Kabul was captured by Ahmad Shah Masood.

Hikmat Yar was unable to enter Kabul. Even after that we tried to bring Ahmad Shah

Masood to Pakistan and normalize his ties with Pakistan’s establishment and remove

all misconceptions, but this did not happen. For the next four years, Hikmat Yar

continued attacking Kabul while Ahmad Shah Masood was in Kabul. Sadly that chaos

and anarchy in Afghanistan gave rise to Taliban and they washed away everyone.

After that Ahmad Shah Masood had to leave Kabul and go back to his Panjshir

Valley. That was the time when Masood got disappointed with Pakistan and in order

to survive, he took help from Iran, America and India. The Indians made good use of

this opportunity. The whole world thought that the Pakistanis created Taliban. The

truth is that we did not create Taliban; they were the result of that chaotic condition

and anarchy. Under Mullah Umar, the Afghan Taliban took control of the situation

and removed all the Mujahideen who were fighting a civil war at that time. Masood

was completely sure that Pakistan was supporting Taliban although this was not true.

Pakistan recognized Taliban after they had reached Kabul. Before that, Pakistan had

no idea about their origin. The first thing Taliban did was to kill Hikmat Yar. Now

Hikmat Yar was the biggest asset for Pakistan and they removed him to capture

Kabul.

Host: Sir, we did not make Taliban and jihadi groups but we gave them protocol. My

question to you is that when we supported Afghanistan in its war against the Soviets,

was it due to strategic reasons or religious reasons?

ZH: If you look at the history of Soviet Union, you will see that for the last 300 years,

Soviet Union had been capturing lands and advancing towards South. Samarqand,

Bokhara, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, were all Muslim regions that were captured by the

Russians in the 19th Century. Those who know history are well aware that it was the

Russians’ dream to enter Afghanistan. Ayub Khan mentioned this in his book as well;

even at that time it was feared that they would invade Afghanistan because of the

Russian built-up. In the 19th century the British Empire feared that the Russians would

invade Afghanistan. For the last 200 years, everyone knew that they wanted to enter

Afghanistan so it did not come as a surprise when they finally invaded Afghanistan.

At that time, it was General Zia’s rule in Pakistan and I think that it was a great

blessing from Allah that General Zia was the ruler at that time. There were strategic

reasons for stopping Soviets in Afghanistan. If we had not done so at that time,

Soviets would have invaded Pakistan in the next 15 to 20 years.

Host: What if the upcoming future leadership in Pakistan claims that this is not our

war, then how do we deal with that?

ZH: Today, it is the dilemma of Pakistan that we are trying to find the tallest pygmy

amongst the pygmies. We do not have towering leadership. Even at that time, some

people said to General Zia that it was impossible to fight the Soviets. It was a huge

power that had reached our borders. At that time, the Army and the ISI decided that

come what may, they would stop the Soviets. They mobilized diplomacy for that;

pacts were made with America, Arab countries and China. You took aid from the

world but all the tactics were designed by the ISI.

Host: Despite all that we were not able to make a good image of Jihad in Pakistan.

Even you were a part of MAJ [Mirror of Afghan Jihad], but you had to ask people for

help in publishing anything related to jihad. Why was that so?

ZH: That was unfortunate. At that time, there was no concept of private media. There

was only one state-run television corporation. The national security policy was to

defeat the Soviet Union in Afghanistan; all of the resources of the Army and ISI were

deployed for this. The information war was definitely weak and was completely

neglected. There was only one play by PTV by the name of ‘Panah’ at that time which

depicted the status of Afghan refugees. But basically the Press Media at that point in

time was controlled by the Socialists. The Leftists and Socialists dominated the

Pakistani Press and they all had a soft corner for the Soviets. Therefore there was

propaganda in the whole world, particularly in Pakistan by the Socialist, Liberal and

Secularist elements who were against the Afghan jihad. They were the ones who

were in control of Pakistani media. The Rightist and Islamic media was practically

non-existent. This was our misfortune. There was no private media and the Press

Media was dominantly controlled by the Leftists.

Host: This means we made the Soviets leave Afghanistan through jihad but you are

saying that if we had not repeated the mistake of Geneva Accord in Musharraf’s

regime, then we would not have become a part of this War on Terror. What reasons

do you have when you say that we should not have been a part of this war? How do

you justify your stance?

ZH: This is not the case. We say that we defeated Soviet Union but Geneva Accord

which was signed in 1988, was a defeat for us on the front of diplomacy. Americans

and Russians made a pact amongst themselves in which they brought forth a puppet

government in Afghanistan to confront Pakistan and ignored the Mujahideen. This

was a massive historical blunder; instead of helping those to form a government

whom we had supported there and who had done jihad for 1o years, we ignored

them. They were supposed to rule Kabul in the coming days. As a result, civil war

started in Afghanistan. After this blunder of Geneva Accord, there was civil war in

Afghanistan in the decade of 90s. That is why, at the time of 9/11, Pakistan did not

have any assets in Afghanistan, especially in the Northern Alliance, the Tajiks, Uzbeks

and Hazaras. They had turned against us due to their civil war. Musharraf’s decision

was disastrous and the nation has suffered a lot because of it. But there was tragedy

inside Afghanistan as well. If Afghan Taliban had befriended the Uzbeks, Hazaras and

Tajiks, the Americans would never have got a chance to use Tajiks and Uzbeks. It was

a blunder on Pakistan’s part as well because Musharraf did not give a thought to the

Northern Alliance.

Host: Sir, General Musharraf justifies himself by saying in his book that we could not

have fought America?

ZH: I would say that the cowards give such arguments. Today, we have blocked

NATO supplies; people had said that this was impossible. When Pakistan blocked the

supplies, many people said that they will resume after 5 days. Today [21-01-2012] it

has been 60 days and still the NATO supplies are blocked. They are building pressure

on us, of course, but when the nations take a stand, media, information war, military

strategy, all should be taken into account. During Musharraf’s regime, we were a

declared nuclear state. It was not a child’s play for America to attack us.

Host: Would you have fought a war with America?

ZH: There is no need for a war when you can handle things through diplomacy and

defeat them on that front, like we have blocked NATO supplies. We are not fighting a

war by doing that. Did Pakistan fight a war with Soviet Union? They were defeated in

Afghanistan but we did not have any direct clash with them. Only once or twice, we

shot down their planes.

Host: Coming to the political front, what do you have to say about the policies of

PPP? The services of PPP in the past from 1975 onwards, especially Zulfiqar Ali

Bhutto, as you said, understood the implications of Soviet invasion and even started

training people. But where do you differ from Benazir’s Afghan policies? What if the

present government has no clear stance about jihad as well as WoT [War on Terror]?

ZH: Bhutto was a brilliant man and even his enemies admit that he was a genius,

though some call him an evil genius. He has also impaired Pakistan in some ways but

the man had vision and courage. When he saw that Soviet Union after invading

Afghanistan, was initiating revolt and rebellion in Pakistan by supporting elements

like BLA, Bhutto took military action against the communist elements in Balochistan.

Cases were filed against ANP for trying to make Pakhtunistan. Third thing he did was,

preparing Islamic militant groups who would fight Communism in Afghanistan. This

was not started by General Zia, but by Bhutto.

Host: You said in your book, Sir, that Bhutto was forced to take military action in

Balochistan?

ZH: It means that there was so much rebellion that Bhutto was not left with any other

option but to take military action against them. All of this chaos in Balochistan was

due to the Soviets. General Zia continued with the policies of Bhutto, Nuclear

Program as well as Afghanistan policy. Soviet Union did not invade Afghanistan in

Bhutto’s time but in Zia’s time. It was a courageous decision by General Zia at that

time and the whole nation and Army was with him, supported by diplomacy and

foreign policy. General Zia was martyred because he wanted to terminate Afghan

jihad to Pakistan’s advantage. He wanted Mujahideen’s government after the war

ended. Signing Geneva Accord meant that General Zia signed his own death warrant.

Just after 6 months of signing Geneva Accord, they martyred General Zia. Now the

Soviets had no other option but to leave. At that time, Benazir came to power in

Pakistan. Her status cannot be compared to her father. Bhutto was a genius while

Benazir was quite immature at that time. She was a 34 year-old who had stepped for

the first time in Pakistan’s politics and had no idea about the policy concerning

Afghanistan. She did whatever the advisors around her told her. Afghan Mujahideen

were not acquainted with her and they did not want to have any talks with her. She

removed General Hameed Gul as soon as she came to power, and Aslam Baig also

retired after some time. So practically she overhauled the ISI and all the handlers of

Afghan Mujahideen. All the officers of General Zia’s time were replaced. In this

scenario, she made General Asad Durrani the DG ISI, a man who was pro-American

and not trusted by the Mujahideen. Instead of uniting the Mujahideen, General

Durrani’s policy was to create differences among them. He supported Hikmat Yar and

ignored Ahmed Shah Masood. It was a time when Pakistan could have made the

government of its choice in Kabul by uniting these two. It is a historical betrayal and

a painful element in our history. We are in a same dilemma today because the

present leadership of Pakistan is not trusted by the Mujahideen. They are not trusted

by Haqqani, Mullah Umar or the Northern Alliance. In this entire crisis, the Americans

have reached a stage where the Soviets had reached before the Geneva Accord. That

is why they are holding Bonn Conference to give license to the Americans to decide

whether to stay in Afghanistan or leave.

Host: If Pakistan does not agree to it, then what is the status of Bonn Conference?

ZH: Pakistan boycotted the Bonn Conference because of the NATO’s attack on Salala

check post and that also resulted in the blockade of its supplies.

Host: You mean that this boycott is futile?

ZH: It is useless until we have a genuine Afghan policy. Before we had decided that

we will remove Soviet Union from Afghanistan; our whole strategy and military policy

was based on it. Now also, first we have to decide whether we want Americans in

Afghanistan or not, then use our resources for it. If we want to remove the Americans

from Afghanistan, then it requires different strategy in foreign policy and diplomacy.

Host: The Army and the political leadership are unable to decide on this issue?

ZH: This decision has not yet been taken by the political leadership or by the Army.

They are still unable to make up their minds whether they want to keep Americans or

remove them from Afghanistan.

Host: If Taliban emerge as a political power, what would it mean for Pakistan?

ZH: They have already emerged as a political power and have been recognized as

well. Their embassies are being opened in Qatar and Turkey and the Americans are

holding talks with them to formulate their exit strategy. There is no doubt about their

being a political power but what concerns us is the fact that even when the

Americans are talking about leaving Afghanistan and are holding Bonn conference

and conducting talks with the Taliban, they are still increasing their military strength

in Afghanistan.

Host: Why is it that at one hand they are having negotiations and talking about safe

exit and on the other hand, the people who are facilitating the negotiations are being

murdered?

ZH: That is what I am saying that the intentions of the Americans are not good. Sun

Tzu, the Chinese military strategist had said that, ‚If you see the words of peace and

preparations for war, be ready, war is coming‛. A lot of military hardware of NATO

that is stuck in Pakistan at the moment. Reports have confirmed that they are shifting

their main battle tanks from Iraq to Afghanistan. Why are there so many armoured

cars? Why do they need such a big military built-up unless they want to attack a

country? This hardware is not needed for anti-Taliban operations. The Af-Pak military

doctrine of Obama is being implemented; this is the End Game being carried out. On

the one hand, we have Cold Start doctrine and on the other we have Af-Pak. This was

the reason and urgency behind publishing this book because now we have reached a

point where we have to take the Americans out of this region otherwise we would

suffer that fate which Soviets planned for us after invading Afghanistan.

Host: Soviet Union was ousted because of jihad, as you know very well, being a part

of the Afghan jihad. You even helped both the sides in negotiations which did not

turn out to be fruitful. At one hand, you say that we have weak diplomacy and on the

other you say that jihad is one of the solutions. We cannot afford jihad now.

ZH: We are already doing jihad.

Host: Sir, in those times, there were at least some people from Jamaat-e-Islami who

were doing jihad. Today, would anyone go to jihad from NED University or LUMS?

ZH: We do not need that kind of jihad today. Those times were different. Today, the

Americans are badly entangled in Afghanistan. There are hundred and fifty thousand

American soldiers in Afghanistan today. Afghan Taliban, Hikmat Yar group, Haqqani

and many other local groups have stood up against them. If Americans could have

captured Afghanistan and defeated the resistance, they would not be holding talks

with the Taliban. Jihad is going on there. We do not need to send Mujahideen from

Pakistan to Afghanistan. What we need to do is block the NATO supply line that is

going through Pakistan. There should be strong diplomacy with China, Turkey, Iran

and Russia. Soviet supply line did not go through Pakistan but American does. We

did not control the Russian supply line; but we control the American supply line.

Russian economy was destroyed because of that war and America is also facing the

same fate. Americans brought NATO with them and due to sustaining this war, Euro-

zone has collapsed. So, we do not need to fight a war with them. Strong diplomacy,

foreign policy and information war will remove the Americans from Afghanistan.

Host: We do not see strong diplomacy in this government?

ZH: What to say of diplomacy, there is no government at all! This is a government

which is clashing with its own institutes; Supreme Court, Army and government, all

three are clashing with one another.

Host: It is fault of the public as well because they voted for them!

ZH: That’s a separate issue. When we talk about the geopolitics of it, the fact is that

we did not learn anything from Geneva Accord and Soviet Union’s withdrawal from

Afghanistan. Now after 20 years, we are in the same position that we were at the

time of Geneva Accord.

Host: Are you satisfied with the role of Army?

ZH: The Army had an excellent role in Afghan jihad, which even the world

recognized. When the Berlin Wall fell, the German Chief of Intelligence himself wrote

a note to the ISI Chief that said: ‘To the one who delivered the first blow to the Soviet

Union’. Army is a separate institute that works under the Army Chief just like the ISI

works under DG ISI. After Zia’s regime, the two DG ISI who were appointed, Asad

Durrani and after him Javed Nasir, they impaired ISI and our Afghan policy. I have

clearly mentioned this fact in my book. I met them and was involved in negotiation

process. Even today those people are alive whom I dealt with at that time. After 9/11,

the Commander in Chief of Pakistan Army was Musharraf. The Army had to follow his

policies even when they were unwilling to do so, and Army suffered too because of

them. But since General Kiyani has taken command and General Pasha has become

DG ISI, they have reorganized Pakistan Army.

Host: Are you satisfied with the role of the Army? You said that the Afghan jihad was

pan-Islamic movement; what is it now?

ZH: Ideologically, it is still pan-Islamic, though not militarily. In the jihad against

Soviet Union, thousands of Mujahideen participated from all over the world and I

was one of the young soldiers. But today, we don’t see Mujahideen from other parts

of the world because it is not possible for them as all the entries into Afghanistan are

blocked. Ideologically, the Afghan jihad is looked upon with respect the world over; it

is a source of inspiration. The Mujahideen all over the world believe that if there is

one place where Americans can be defeated today, it is Afghanistan. Americans have

not been beaten by Muslims, though they have faced defeat in Vietnam. That is why

it is a very romantic concept to defeat the Americans, a western power, in

Afghanistan. There are different powers that have occupied Muslim territories all over

the world, particularly India in Kashmir, Russia in Chechnya and Israel in Palestine and

the Americans are reshaping the whole of the Middle East, so obviously there is

anger against them in Muslims. That is why Afghanistan is a very romantic, focal

point for Mujahideen. If Americans are defeated here, then it is guaranteed that the

American empire’s hegemony over the world will end, just like the Soviet Union’s

power ended in Afghanistan.

Host: You say that it is one of your dreams to fight against Hindu Zionism?

ZH: There is no doubt about it. Have the Indians not broken Pakistan? We are only

talking about avenging. If they had recognized Pakistan, they would not have

invaded Pakistan, truncated it and martyred one million Pakistanis. There hatched

Agartala Conspiracy and prepared Mukti Bahini for this purpose. They prepared and

planned for it for years and entered Pakistan from three sides. They had no right to

do this. Every independent, freedom-loving country of the world protects its dignity

and honour. We are not against the Indian Daleet and Shudar, Christians or any other

minority there. We are not against any religion. We just say that the ruling Brahmin

Zionist elite wants to destroy Islam; it is a snake that will keep on biting you unless

you subdue it.

Host: But why can’t we have a dialogue with this ‘snake’?

ZH: How can you negotiate or have a dialogue with a snake or a scorpion? You

cannot. This is a simple fact.

Host: On one hand you talk about diplomacy, on the other you say that we should

crush this snake. Is there no middle way?

ZH: There can be diplomacy with your allies when you work together against a

common threat. Indians are working against the Chinese, the Bengalis, the Sri

Lankans and the Pakistanis. They are at war with all the neighbouring countries

around them. Diplomacy means that you get these countries together to crush India,

just like you did with the Soviet Union. We allied with China and the free world, the

Western world and the Muslim world. Then we were not alone.

Host: It means we need to differentiate between friends and enemies very clearly.

ZH: The truth is that the Americans are our worst enemies at the moment, and so are

the Indians. We are having ‘Aman ki Asha’ with the Indians and facilitating Americans

with the supplies.

Host: If we stop taking aid from the Americans, then what is the alternative?

ZH: What aid are we getting? We do not need to take any aid; just ask them for the

taxes of the last 11 years of the NATO supplies that passed through Pakistan. In

Pakistan, we get petrol for Rs. 90 / litre but we were giving petrol to NATO for just Rs.

35 / litre. We did not take any taxes from them. Just ask NATO to pay you the taxes

of the air routes, supplies and services that they have been using. The taxes total to

40 billion dollars. They are fooling us because the aid that they give is 600 million

dollars only. If we just take the taxes from them, we will have budget for the next 10

years.

Host: A very innocent question: why don’t people understand all of this?

ZH: People do understand but majority of them make compromises:

وہ د ل یک ر قیف

ب ا ن

ا ر وخف وہ نکیل ر

زہ

ل ےس ر اہ ےہ یہی دنلقر و ن اک رطقی

ا ر

This is how Iqbal defined a Qalander; unfortunately we don’t see these qualities in

our leaders today. Everyone knows that these leaders are doing all sorts of

corruption and dishonesty. There is anarchy and 4thGW in the country besides Af-

Pak and Cold Start doctrines. They all know very well that the enemy is now fully

prepared to attack Pakistan. But they do not say anything because of their own

vested interests; their money is in the western banks. Only a fearless person would

talk about these things.

Host: Sir, BLA and ANP are leftist parties which were supported by the Soviet Union.

With this kind of background, how are they still surviving in Pakistan? What is the

future of Balochistan when Sardar Ataullah Mangal has reached a point of no-return?

ZH: Remember one thing about Balochistan that most of the things that are being

said are propaganda. Balochistan covers 40 – 42 % area of Pakistan but the

population is only 4 % of total Pakistan’s population. Out of that population, half are

Pashtuns and Makranis. The remaining are Baloch and 90 % of those love Pakistan.

There are only a few Sardars who are fooling the youth. If they had been capable of

capturing Balochistan militarily, they would have done it 50 years ago because that is

how old this BLA is. They couldn’t do anything even at the time when the Soviet

Union was backing them. Now the Americans are supporting them in order to

achieve what once Soviet Union wanted. These communist elements were with Soviet

Union before but today they are with the CIA. Only their masters have changed but

their mission remains the same.

Host: Then why do they say that their men are being taken by the ISI and FIA?

ZH: There is no law at the moment in Pakistan. If Pakistan Army was not doing

military operations there, it would have been worse. The judiciary is not functioning.

Host: Why are the professors, teachers and common men being kidnapped?

ZH: These are just allegations; this is not true.

Host: You don’t believe in HRCP, right?

ZH: The truth is that HRCP is doubtful. We do not see any credibility in them because

they do not talk about TTP, MQM and the terrorist groups prepared by Indians and

CIA. Why do they see everything against ISI?

Host: So it means that HRCP is also supported by the US?

ZH: You just need to look at the characters in HRCP; everyone knows that Asma

Jahangir is Bal Thakray’s close friend. If we have such elements in HRCP, then I am

sorry, they have no credibility. They are hostile.

Host: What factors do you see behind Zia-ul-Haq’s death?

ZH: It is a documented fact that he was martyred by the Indians and Israelis, even

though the media does not talk about it because of the Israeli lobby. This is not

something that only I say; I have mentioned this fact in my book that the American

ambassador to India, John Gunter Dean, who was declared mentally retarded just

because in his capacity as the ambassador, he said that he was contacted by the

Mossad and RAW. They asked him to assist them in assassinating Zia-ul-Haq, but he

said that he would not become a part of this plan. When General Zia was

assassinated, he said that Israeli Secret Service, Mossad was behind this. As a result,

the American Foreign Office declared him mentally unstable and took him out of the

Foreign Service. He is still alive though very old. He wrote a book and through a legal

fight, he proved that he was not mentally ill and that the American government

levelled allegations against him because he had exposed RAW. There has been no

investigation of Zia’s crash in the world. Efforts were made to hire big American

companies and lawyers but everyone withdrew. It has not happened anywhere in the

world that an investigation is being stopped at the state level. This only happens

when Secret Services like Mossad, RAW and CIA are involved in an investigation.

Host: What was the role of our agencies in this investigation?

ZH: This investigation should have been carried out. The fact is that we did not have

the technology to carry out this investigation. It was their C130, and only they

[Americans] could read the Black Box. We could have only carried out a ground level

investigation. Whether there were crates of mangoes aboard or not? Was there any

bomb in them or not? We did not have the capability to investigate further than that.

Host: Who do you think is behind the murder of Benazir?

ZH: One thing is for sure that there was suicide bombing, and that Tehriq-e-Taliban

have been doing it. But it is unimportant whether the suicide bomber belonged to

the TTP or some other organization. The important thing is that who sent him? The

killer was of course one of the TTP. There was firing and explosion and around 30 -35

people were killed with Benazir. But who sent him? That needs to be seen. TTP is

operated by the Indians and it is a hard-core Indian-RAW agency. Who benefitted

from Benazir’s murder? People say that the biggest beneficiary is Zardari, because in

the presence of Benazir, it was impossible for this man to become the president. All

these are allegations; they are yet to be proven; but there were circumstantial

evidences. TTP is an Indian controlled organization. Why did India want Benazir

dead? The important point to be noted is the after-effects of Benazir’s assassination.

There was anarchy, destruction and assets worth of billions of dollars were burnt in

protests. Benazir still had some strength of character and PPP would not have

degenerated to this level. Now there is no PPP; it is just a Zardari gang. The

mainstream PPP is against them. I don’t think Benazir would have done corruption at

this high level in Pakistan because she had learnt from her two previous experiences.

This man has gotten his chance for the first time and he has played havoc with the

country and nation.

Host: Are there any factors in Pakistani intelligence or government that can help in

better negotiation between Pakistan and Afghanistan? After Zia-ul-Haq, Hameed Gul

was out of picture.

ZH: After General Hameed Gul, the present leadership of ISI and Army is the most

patriotic leadership in Pakistan’s history. That is why we see its direct collision with

the Americans. This leadership started taking the Americans out of the country and

started protecting the interests of Pakistan. Who do you think has halted the NATO

supplies? Who is in direct collision with the Americans and the CIA at the moment?

It’s Pakistan Army and ISI. There is an intense war going on between CIA and ISI right

now. We also notice that there is strong propaganda in the whole world against ISI

and Pakistan Army, against General Pasha and General Kiyani. This propaganda is

there because these people are in a position at the moment that they can take

Americans out of Afghanistan. We have reached the same stage where General Zia

had reached when he pushed the Soviets out of Afghanistan. We can push the

Americans out and for that we don’t even have to fight a war. This could be achieved

by strength of diplomacy and foreign policy, information war and by stopping their

supplies. No country in this region wants to see the Americans in Afghanistan, just as

none of the countries wanted the Soviets here.

Host: When we have such a patriotic army, then a scandal like Memogate comes in

limelight, who do you think is the culprit?

ZH: Memogate is a conspiracy against the Army! The Army is not the culprit here!

Host: I am talking about the political leadership.

ZH: Yes, the government is the culprit. The truth is that I register my protest to

General Pasha and General Kiyani, that why have they not removed this government

yet? They are still following the constitution and the law. Up till now they have been

looking towards the Judiciary. They want the Supreme Court to deal firmly with this

matter. It is Chief Justice’s responsibility to give verdict on the Memo case. They can

drag the NRO case as long as they like, but for God’s sake give verdict on Memo case

because this is a national security issue. ‘Memo’ means that the Americans want to

destroy Pakistan Army and assassinate the military leadership. They want to carry out

attacks in Pakistan and destroy its nuclear installations. This is what memo actually is!

A huge conspiracy has been exposed; then why Supreme Court is delaying decision

on it? The Americans are having a military built-up against Pakistan in Afghanistan in

order to attack Pakistan. On the other side, the Indians are getting ready. I laud the

patience of General Pasha and General Kiyani, that even after so much instigation

and provocation, they are unruffled. I will ask them not be that accommodating. The

CJ of Supreme Court is following the law but he is not a national security analyst.

Host: Then should we follow your advice where you said in an interview in 2010 that

caretaker government should be set up but with a little change in the law? Instead

for three months, the caretaker setup should be for three years.

ZH: We have to do it, because it is written the constitution of Pakistan that the

President of Pakistan will appoint caretaker government. Do you think that this

president will appoint a caretaker government when he himself is under a case of

treason in the memo case besides the NRO case? This is man-made law, not Divine

Law. We have to interpret it. It is written in the law that the caretaker government will

come for 90 days, but how can the elections be held if the country is in a state of

war? The law does not answer that, so we have to think of a solution. Either we save

the constitution or we save the country! This must be decided!

Host: For those who do not know the history of War on Terror and who don’t know

why Soviet Union was after the warm waters of Asia, if we have to tell them the

importance of the friendship between Pakistan and Afghanistan, what should be the

bottom-line? How do we tell them that a stable Afghanistan is in Pakistan’s interest?

ZH: Pakistan and Afghanistan are friends. There is no confusion about it. 4 million

Afghanis have been staying in Pakistan for the last 30 years. All Afghans speak Urdu;

all the wheat that they eat in Afghanistan is from Pakistan, the clothes that they wear,

the books that they read there, are printed in Peshawar. Even our currency is used

there, everyone understands and speaks Urdu. These differences at the political level

can be dealt with overnight. We have a historical blood relation with the Afghans.

This region including Pakistan and Afghanistan is the Greater Khurasan. Historically,

for thousands of years, Khurasan was one region. We were never Indo-Pak region; we

went there to rule Hindustan. We were more connected to Afghanistan. Even the

Mughal emperor, Babar who ruled Hindustan was buried in Kabul. Everyone spoke in

Persian; even Iqbal wrote his poetry in Persian and we have also mentioned this in

our book that Iqbal went to Afghanistan in 1932 and talked to the Afghans. Even the

gravestone on Iqbal’s tomb that we see today was sent from the Afghan ruler, Nadir

Shah. So we were never separated from Afghanistan. We were friends always. We

helped them in getting free from the Soviets and we should definitely help them in

getting rid of the Americans. That is why we see that the Afghan Taliban, Hikmat Yar

or Haqqani never spoke against Pakistan. But recently the Tajiks have not been

happy with us; still we can have friendly relationship with Uzbeks, Tajiks and Hazaras

once again. They are sensible people just like the Afghan Taliban. They have now

understood that the Taliban fought against not only the Shias but also the Sunnis.

Tajiks and Uzbeks are not Shias but Afghan Taliban fought them as well. Now Tajiks

have also understood that their internal fighting with the Taliban has resulted in their

present misery. All of them can be brought together on one platform. Iran is with us

as well. For the first time, Iran and Pakistan have agreed on Afghan policy. Today,

ironically, even Russia is with us. This is how history changes; it is the same Russia we

defeated in Afghanistan.

Host: How do we create a good impression of our Deen [religion]?

ZH: The best way of making a good impression of the religion is that all those

elements that do terrorism in the name of religion should be thrown out of the

region. Simple as that, we should prove that we are not terrorists. Afghan Taliban

were in power in Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001. Were there any suicide bombings

in Pakistan during that time? Were there any attacks on Pakistan then? There were

no TTP or BLA then! Afghan Taliban proved that they did not do any terrorism in the

countries in this region. The truth is that all the terrorist elements in Pakistan are

foreign elements. They are CIA and Indian trained, like TTP and BLA and other

sectarian groups. Remember one thing that Iqbal said that if you want peace in Asia,

then there should be peace in Afghanistan. If Afghanistan is peaceful, then Asian will

be peaceful. If there is war in Afghanistan, there will be war in whole Asia. And history

has proven this to be true. When the Soviets entered Afghanistan and the war started

there, literally the whole of Asia was ablaze; the result was terrorism, anarchy and

wars.

Host: In big wars like these, should there be failures due to personality clash between

people like Ahmad Shah and Hikmat Yar? How can they overcome these ethnic

issues?

ZH: It is in the nature of the Afghans that they fight amongst themselves; this is not

something new. But they can be brought together as well. There are incidences of

this in history. Ahmad Shah Abdali and Durrani have also built empires there. If

Pakistan, Iran and Turkey work together, they can unite the Afghanis. But first we

have to decide that we should have two objectives; our foreign policy and media

information war. Our focus should be on these two things in Afghanistan: to take the

Americans out of there and build a friendly broad based government in Afghanistan.

For this, all our resources of diplomacy, foreign policy and military strategy should be

deployed. We must not support and sustain the Americans in Afghanistan. The NATO

supplies that we have stopped, if they are allowed inside Afghanistan, then you will

give Americans another chance to start a war against Pakistan and continue with the

anarchy in Afghanistan. We should confiscate the supplies that we have halted. This

is needed because the Americans have not paid us the taxes for the last 11 years for

the war they imposed upon us. All our expenses should be covered through these

supplies. These should not reach the Americans because they will use these supplies

to kill Afghan Taliban and also attack Pakistan and this will be a total loss for us.

Host: In this whole situation, Sir, where is the media lagging behind?

ZH: Just like at the time of war with the Soviet Union, there was only print media and

it was all controlled by the Socialists. Today we have electronic media but 99% of it

gets funding from groups like Voice of America and SAFMA or directly funded by the

US. There are Indian lobbies so the entire media is only confusing the nation. The

Pakistani media never discusses real issues like Af-Pak, 4thGW and Cold-Start. Did

you ever listen to the points of view of Ahmad Shah, Hikmat Yar, Haqqani or Mullah

Umar on Pakistani media? They are real entities in Afghanistan fighting war of

resistance; even the Americans are negotiating with them. Did you ever listen to this

point of view on Pakistani media that there should be representation of Afghan

Taliban in Islamabad as well? When they can have an office in Qatar, why not in

Islamabad?

Host: My last question is where do you see Pakistan in the map of the world?

ZH: It depends upon our leaders where they take us. We can be the greatest Muslim

nation in this region, leading the Muslim empire; the nearby Muslim countries of

Central Asia are our natural allies. If we take the Americans out of Afghanistan today,

then Pakistan will lead a block of Muslim countries:

رحم یک ب ا ابسین ےک ےیلا ب ک وہن ملسم

ا اخبک اکرغش

لین ےک سا لح ےس ےل رک ب

Host: Thank you very much Sir, for joining us.