fifty years in the pulpit: seven veteran rabbis tell it...

Fifty Years in the Pulpit:

Seven VeteranRabbis Tell ItLike It Was

28 I JEWISH ACTION Fall 5769/2008

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Fall 5769/2008 JEWISH ACTION I 29

In January 2008, Jewish Action invited seven prominent veteran rabbis, with a combined 350 years ofleadership in the Orthodox community, to reflect on the unpredictable growth and remarkable evolutionof American Jewry. The participants were Rabbis Rafael Grossman, Joseph Grunblatt, David Hollander,

Dr. Gilbert Klaperman, Ralph Pelcovitz, Fabian Schonfeld and Max Schreier. The discussion, which wasmoderated by Orthodox Union President Stephen J. Savitsky and took place at the Orthodox Union (OU)headquarters in Manhattan, spanned a variety of topics including the frightening pace of intermarriage,outreach to the already frum and the non-frum, the role of the North American rabbi and the decline of thecathedral-style synagogue.

Subsequently, at its 110th National Dinner in April, the OU honored each of these distinguished leaderswith the Lifetime Rabbinic Achievement Award for his contribution to Jewish life.

The following are excerpts from the wide-ranging discussion. We hope you will be inspired by thetimeless wisdom in the pages ahead. To order a DVD of the entire discussion, e-mail [email protected]. Commentsand responses to this discussion are welcome on Jewish Action’s web site, www.ou.org/jewish_action.

Photos: Menachem Adelman

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Steve Savitsky: What have beenthe most significant changes inAmerican Orthodox life you’vewitnessed since you entered therabbinate? What have been themost significant changes in therabbi’s functions?

Rabbi Dr. Gilbert Klaperman: In1950, I came to Lawrence [New York]and found a very interesting congrega-tion—patrician, aristocratic people.They were very fine Jews, but theyknew very little about the religious re-quirements of Judaism. They helpedbuild the synagogue. Together, we builtthe first yeshivah in Nassau County.We [helped] build the first eruv inthe county. We had a great commu-nity.But we did not have talmideichachamim. We have them today inour congregation—I think that’s asignificant change.

Rabbi Ralph Pelcovitz: When wecame into our positions, a half-centuryago, we found—those of us who werein truly Torah-observant shuls—thatthe older generation was more frumthan the younger generation. Today,the younger generation is more frumthan the older generation.

Rabbi David Hollander: Amongother significant changes is the up-surge of Torah learning for men andwomen of all ages. Overall, there’s awonderful change in favor of yahadushaTorah. There’s just no comparison[to what was]. And for that change, theOU is entitled to tremendous recogni-tion and credit.

Rabbi Joseph Grunblatt: There havebeen various changes in AmericanJewish life, for better or for worse. Insome communities, the stability of thefamily has been seriously challenged.We find many more dysfunctional fam-ilies in the Orthodox community, andmore divorces than in the past. On theother hand, we frequently encounter agap between the older and the youngergenerations. Many people who aremembers of this Orthodox organiza-tion [the OU] have children who willprobably not daven in an OU shul, butrather in a shtiebel. [Many of themwill] sit and learn. So certainly, therehave been some very radical changes.

Rabbi Rafael Grossman: I spent mostof my years in rabbanus away fromNew York. There was a time whenevery community in the United Stateswith at least two- to three-thousandJews had an Orthodox shul. Those

shuls have tragically and painfully dis-appeared. This is the negative aspect ofthe last fifty years. . . . [In] town aftertown, city after city, where there werepulpits for Orthodox rabbanim, Ortho-doxy no longer exists. But, on the otherhand, a number of shuls that were affil-iated with the OU fifty years ago, out-side of New York, were either withoutmechitzahs or had other deviations thatwere seriously problematic. [Today,this is no longer the case.] Whatbrought about this tremendously posi-tive change, and the dawning of a po-tentially great future for communitiesin the remote parts of America, or atleast remote from New York? Firstly, ofcourse, chinuch [education]. Secondly,NCSY. The achievements of NCSY arenothing less than remarkable.

Rabbi Max Schreier: [The rabbis offifty years ago] were respected be-cause they were gedolei Torah, butthey didn’t have a community to workwith. I remember when I arrived inRochester, New York, the story wasReform A, Conservative B, and Ortho-doxy a poor third. But the commitmentof Orthodox rabbis in general was verygreat, and these rabbis functioned asthey did within limitations of commu-nal influence. The congregants werenot very well educated, by and large,with the exception of those who camefrom religious communities.

Rabbi Fabian Schonfeld: Basically,the changes came about with siyatad’Shamaya [help from Above]. It’s thenatural way of Torah to inspire people,to cause them to rethink what life is allabout. It was the drive towards Jewisheducation—the yeshivah movement,the day school movement—thatbrought about a very significantchange. People call it “the shift to theRight.” I don’t know of a Right, or Leftor Center. This is a question of label-ing, which is wrong. I’ve always beenopposed to the use of [the term] “Cen-trist Orthodoxy.” . . . It’s Torah Judaism.

A rabbi’s job has also changedtremendously; [he is no longer] some-body who [just] answers occasionalquestions about Ya’aleh Veyavo, Ret-zeih and Al Hanissim. Today, the rabbihas to be a qualified psychiatrist, psy-chologist and, above all, socialworker—which is really what MosheRabbeinu was. Yisro’s criticism ofMoshe Rabbeinu was “You’re too muchof everything.” Our role has changedtremendously. We are involved in peo-ple’s lives, in their parnassah [liveli-hood]. I don’t think that rabbanim everhad this kind of a challenge. The ideaof the rav [spending all of his time] sit-ting and learning has changed. RabbiEliezer Silver said that once, when hewas rabbi in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,the [shul] president walked in, andfound him learning. “Rav Silver, what’sdoing?” he asked. “I’m learning,” he an-swered. “You’re learning?! You’re arabbi already—you don’t have to learnanymore. If you don’t know how tolearn, why did you become a rabbi?”asked the president. [While the rabbi’sneed to learn] hasn’t stopped, the rabbiis [now required] to get involved inevery aspect of Jewish life.

Rabbi Rafael Grossman wassenior rabbi of the famed BaronHirsch Synagogue in Memphis,Tennessee, for thirty years. Hon-ored with the OU’s NationalRabbinic Centennial MedallionAward, he is a past president ofboth the Rabbinical Council ofAmerica (RCA) and the BethDin of America, as well as a for-mer chairman of the board ofthe Religious Zionists of Amer-ica. Additionally, Rabbi Gross-man is a practicingpsychotherapist and a notedprofessor, author and columnist.

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Mr. Savitsky: One of the greatestproblems facing Jewry is intermar-riage. What do you think canbe done to stem the tide ofassimilation?

Rabbi Grunblatt: Frankly, I don’tthink there’s too much that we can do.[Years ago,] there were many Jewswho were not observant, but you hada sense they were Yidden. But this[ethnic identification] is practicallygone, and without true Torah commit-ment there’s very little sensitivityabout [maintaining a Jewish identity].The liberal branches have attempted,of course [to deal with assimilation].They’re constantly writing in themedia about accepting intermarriedcouples, and working with them. Butessentially, I think it is a losing battleand [there is] very little that we cando for people who have reached thepoint where being Jewish doesn’tmatter anymore.

Rabbi Pelcovitz: [The Jewish people]always [suffered from] intermarriage.But within the Jewish community,

there was never legitimacy granted tothis phenomenon—which is what hashappened in our country, slowly butsurely, over the years. When we beganin the rabbinate, we, not only the Or-thodox, but also the Reform, the Con-servative and the secular agreed thatintermarriage was beyond the pale.Over the last half century, there hasbeen an encroachment upon the invisi-ble barrier between us and the non-Jewish world. Intermarriage has slowlybeen granted legitimacy, and it isn’t

that far a distance from legitimacy toacceptance. And there’s also a connec-tion, an opening from acceptance toapproval. And therefore, what we haveto do—this is something that the OUand all Jewish organizations have towork on—is to reinstitute total disap-proval, and the refusal to accept or tolegitimize any kind of intermarriage.Once you give intermarriage legiti-macy, there is no argument left for usto be able to convince our young peo-ple to reject it.

Rabbi Joseph Grunblatt served fornearly four decades as rabbi of theQueens Jewish Center in Queens,New York. He is a recipient of theOU’s National Rabbinic CentennialMedallion Award as well as the 1996recipient of the esteemed Ben ZakkaiHonor Society Harold H. Boxer Me-morial Award. Rabbi Grunblatt is alsoa former vice president of the RCAand the Vaad Harabonim of Queens,as well as an author and contributingeditor to Jewish Action.

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Rabbi Klaperman: There’s anotheraspect of this issue that we’re nottouching on. And that is, How do wetalk to our children about the problemof intermarriage? In other words, tosimply say that we will not grant legiti-macy is not sufficient. We have to in-still in our children a love for Judaism.We have to create a sense of emotionalrelationship [to Judaism], of pride andjoy. We have to talk to them not onlyabout Jewish tradition, but about greatJews who brought credit to us. Wehave to talk to them about an AlbertEinstein, a Jew who brought greatglory to our people. We have to say

that there were great Jewish justices inthe Supreme Court; there are greatJews in Congress.

Mr. Savitsky: We have to have ashift from “guilt to pride.” Guiltdoesn’t sell, guilt doesn’t work. Youhave to have pride.

Rabbi Schonfeld: The only thing wecan do is what the OU’s doing, theRCA’s doing, the yeshivahs aredoing—and that is, get people to notonly study Torah, but to also practiceTorah. You’re not going to stop inter-marriage simply by saying to people,“Don’t do this. It’s wrong. It’s bad forus.” Those arguments have no value.We need to infuse [Jews] with a spiritof loyalty to Torah, not just within thesynagogue alone—in every part ofJewish communal life.

Rabbi Grossman: The vast majority[of American Jews] have no Jewishidentity. And how do we deal with it?First deal with the issue! Sure, if we

can get everyone to put on tefillin, domitzvos and keep and learn Torah thatwould be wonderful! But that is notdoable. “Ve’al tomar davar she’i efsharlishmoa.” What is doable is to empha-size the most important aspect of ourbeing, and that is Peoplehood. We aredisappearing. The vast majority ofAmerican Jews have yet to set eyes onIsrael. The vast majority have no Jew-ish connection whatsoever. And that’snot just outside of New York, but inNew York as well. What transcends allof our concerns—transcends every-thing—is the fact that we need to iden-tify as a people. And part of

[peoplehood] is the one avenue thatthe Ribbono Shel Olam gave us: It iscalled Israel.

Rabbi Schreier: I met a young man,who happens to be a former congre-gant of mine, who’s engaged in out-reach in a particular community. Andhe said to me that with tens of thou-sands of youngsters going to Israel[after high school] each year, the key isto have a presence on college cam-puses to make sure that when theycome back [to the States] and pursuetheir advanced degrees, they have theability to do so in a constructive at-mosphere. One of the greatest of theOU’s activities is its campus program[the Heshe & Harriet Seif JewishLearning Initiative on Campus orJLIC].* Because more than 90 percentof American Jewish youngsters attendcolleges and universities, the presenceof these [frum] couples on campus hasmade a huge difference. Only last nightI heard about a campus that has atremendous Jewish presence—the

University of Florida—but there is noJewish community within 100 miles. Iwould urge the OU to redouble its ef-forts in this area.

Rabbi Klaperman: Taking RabbiSchreier’s comments a little further,there is no place on the Jewish scenewhere Jewish boys can meet Jewishgirls. I met my late wife in Shomer Ha-dati. We used to get together every Fri-day night. The fact is that I met mywife in an organization that sponsoredthe opportunity for Jewish boys tomeet Jewish girls. And we don’t havethat anymore.

Mr. Savitsky: We’re very proud ofthe fact that through NCSY, wherewe have close to 1,000 advisors,young men and women of collegeage and beyond, we make hundredsof shidduchim. We think NCSYprovides a wonderful place foryoung men and young women tomeet, in an acceptable social set-ting, while they’re doing greatwork for Klal Yisrael.

Rabbi Pelcovitz: There is a certainkind of a romance, a love affair, that wehave today with kiruv rechokim [out-reach to the non-religious]. There’snothing that gives greater sipukruchani [spiritual thrill] than to bemekarev [to engage in outreach]. Butlet us not overlook kiruv kerovim [out-reach to the already religious]. Wherewe may be failing is in making surethat when our own children go off tocollege, they get the strengtheningthey need.

Mr. Savitsky: The program we haveon college campuses was nevermeant for unaffiliated kids. Our col-lege campus program was meantfor our kids. We don’t use the term“kiruv kerovim” but “mechazekkerovim.” In other words, the peo-ple who are karov also need chizuk.Look at NCSY, which is the largestJewish teenage kiruv organization

Rabbi David Hollander has beenrabbi of the Hebrew Alliance ofBrighton Beach in Brooklyn, NewYork, for twenty-eight years. He beganhis career as rabbi of K’hal AdathYeshurun and the Mt. Eden JewishCenter in the Bronx, New York. A for-mer president of the RCA, the Rab-binical Alliance of America and PoaleiAgudath Israel of America, Rabbi Hol-lander is also a columnist for variousEnglish and Yiddish publications.

*The OU, in partnership with Hilleland with assistance from TorahMitzion, administers JLIC, a programthat helps Orthodox students navigatethe college environment and balancetheir Jewish commitment with theirdesire to engage the secular world.



in the United States. We reach30,000 out of the 338,000 Jewishteens in North America. So we’rereaching only 11 percent.

Rabbi Grossman: You can talk aboutinternal Orthodox concerns and issues,but they are totally irrelevant toJewish survival. There’s a fire burningout there.

Eighty percent of American Jewsdo not live within the vicinity of NewYork. West of the Hudson is where theJews have moved. . . . New York is anentity unto itself. Orthodoxy is pro-foundly iconoclastic. And, beyond[New York], you have a whole differ-ent world out there. You hardly haveOrthodoxy. So what are we going todo? In my lifetime, six million Jewsperished. And, in my lifetime, the mostremarkable gift of Hashem occurred inthe emergence of the State of Israel.And [Israel] does evoke a sense ofpride among many Jews who wouldnever set foot into an Orthodox shul.

Our problem today is getting Jewsto remain Jews by any definition! Be-cause without a people, there is nokiruv. Without a people, there is nochinuch and there is no Torah.

Mr. Savitsky: As someone who visitssmall Jewish communities in NorthAmerica almost every other Shab-bos, I know that you’re absolutelycorrect. Judaism is not just NewYork; it’s throughout North Americaand throughout the world. As I travel around and visit manyshuls, I meet rabbis who are youngand have been in the rabbinate forten years or so, and they tell methey’re burnt out. Baruch Hashem,all of you served your congregationsfor many, many decades. Whatwould you tell these rabbis tohelp them maintain their energyand enthusiasm?

Rabbi Schreier: The area of a rabbi’sactivity has broadened. For example,whether it is on college campuses, oron the subject of challenged youth,there’s so much [a rabbi has to do]. Iwould tell these young rabbis to chan-nel their great abilities. Certainly thelater generations of [American] rabbiswere recipients of a better educationthan earlier generations. The flipside isthat many rabbis experience difficul-

ties [when] the laity in their congrega-tion is not always receptive to the ac-tivity that a rabbi wishes to introduce.In this regard, the OU has a great con-tribution to make. . . . in sensitizinglaity to the opportunities that there arefor service.

Rabbi Schonfeld: I think a rabbi whofeels burnt out shouldn’t have been arabbi in the first place. You have to gointo this profession, if you can call it aprofession, with a spirit of dedicationto Torah, to chinuch, to Klal Yisrael. Ifyou do, you don’t get burnt out. I’veseen rabbis who are burnt out. Theyget tired of meetings and with fightingwith the congregation, with the shulpresident. But you have to feel the aishda’as, the fire of Torah, within you—independent of age, independent ofcircumstances. If you don’t have that,you shouldn’t be a rabbi.

Rabbi Klaperman: We have to exam-ine why a rabbi’s burnt out. Is it be-cause he’s working too hard? Orbecause the challenge is too much forhim? Or because he was never meantto be a rabbi? I had a non-Jewish friend

[who was] a minister. He used to speakabout his colleagues and say, “He wasdefrocked. He was unsuited.” Thereare young men who went into the rab-binate out of commitment, out of de-sire, but they’re not meant to be rabbis.They get burnt out very quickly, be-cause the rabbinate is a challengingprofession. It’s hard work. It’s demand-ing work. It’s intellectually challenging.The rabbis I see here [around thistable] don’t look burnt out to me.Why? Because they were suited tobe rabbis.

Rabbi Pelcovitz: We all get burnt out.. . . Otherwise, we would [all] still be inthe active rabbinate.

If a rabbi is really fulfilling his job,in a community and in a shul, he canbe a mechadesh [innovator]. [Being]mechadesh does not always [pertainto] chiddushei Torah. You can be amechadesh in the sense that you chan-nel your energies in areas that areneeded at that particular time. When Ifirst entered the rabbinate I channeledmy energies in an altogether differentchannel than I would if I were startingover again today. To a great extent, theba’alei batim today are more learned,and there perhaps is a greater desirefor Torah than there was when we firststarted. By the same token, there are[new and different] challenges today—the necessity of kiruv, the question ofintermarriage. . . . We cannot apply theold, stale formulas that we useddecades ago [to] today. There has to bechiddush. And if there is chiddush, youcannot become burnt out.

Rabbi Grunblatt: I once offered anew peshat [interpretation] on an im-portant pasuk in the Torah: the firsttheophany of Moshe Rabbeinu and theburning bush. The verse states, “He[Moshe] saw.” But what did he see?“Vehinai hasneh boeir ba’aish, vehasneheinenu ukal.” The Seforno says the[verse] refers to the Egyptians, andmost learn [that] it refers to the Jewishpeople. I said that it refers to MosheRabbeinu, who was told he will beleading the Jews. Although he hadgehakte tsores,“vehasneh einenu ukal,”don’t ever get burnt out. That was themessage for Moshe Rabbeinu.

I don’t want to judge other rabbis.“Keshem shepartzufayhem shonos zumezu, kach deiosayhem shonos zu

Rabbi Dr. Gilbert Klapermanwas the founding rabbi of Congre-gation Beth Sholom in Lawrence,New York, in 1950. A distinguishedprofessor and lawyer, he has taughtat several institutions, includingYeshiva College and Hofstra LawSchool. Since his retirement fromCongregation Beth Sholom in 1988,Rabbi Dr. Klaperman has contin-ued to serve in various roles, in-cluding assistant district attorneyin Kings County, New York.



mezu”—everybody’s different, andtakes things differently. The importantthing is care. If you care, you don’t getburnt out. I’ve been in the rabbinate along time, and every day, there [is]something that occurs, an experience[that comes up] that I haven’t had be-fore. People have certain ambitions inthe rabbinate, and [when] the ambi-tions are unfulfilled, it’s more likelythat one will get burnt out.

Mr. Savitsky: Some of the rabbiswho tell me they get burnt out sayit’s because they do care. They tellme, “Well, other rabbis may notcare as much, and so therefore theycan keep going. I take every situa-tion so personally. I care so muchthat I’m just burnt out.”

Rabbi Hollander: You have to fightfire with fire! “Torah nemshelahle’aish.” If a rabbi is burnt out, thatmeans that his conscience is botheringhim. It’s not [a] physical [sensation].It’s something that he feels that he’snot doing right. For example . . . [arabbi] might want to say something,and he hesitates to say it because ofthe possible material consequences, orbecause [he’s afraid of] making some-body in his congregation angry. Theseare the things that bother the rabbi’sconscience. That’s what creates theburnout.

Burnout is not possible if youknow that you are working for yourFather. Who is your Father? AvinushebaShamayim!

Mr. Savitsky: Many people todayare claiming that the communityrabbi is being replaced by the roshyeshivah, since more and moreshe’eilos, questions, are beingasked to the rosh yeshivah, and notthe rabbi. What do you see as therole of the community rabbi in theyears ahead?

Rabbi Grunblatt: I’ve never beenconcerned with this kind of kavod [re-spect]. I feel my strength is in teaching,and I’ve taught in Touro College formany years. I once compared a rabbi toa decathlon athlete. The rabbi is likelyto have to have ten [different] skills,and no decathlon world champion hasever been championed in one of thedifferent sports. And you have to ac-

cept that. Of course the roshei yeshivahcan learn better; they sit and learn, dayand night. But, baruch Hashem, I knowenough that I can deal with [the rosheiyeshivah], and if they know better,I concede.

Rabbi Pelcovitz: We have to definevery clearly—and this definition, bythe way, has to come from the laitymore than from the rabbinical pow-

ers—what is the role of a rav and whatis the role of a rosh yeshivah. And weshould point out that historically, wedid have an answer to that question. Ionce asked an elderly Jew who hadgrown up in Mir [which boasted theMir Yeshivah]: “When there is a chas-sunah [wedding], who’s going to be themesader kiddushin [officiator of theceremony], the rosh yeshivah of Mir orthe rav of Mir?” And he said to me,“Aza narishe frage, I never heard such afoolish question. What does a roshyeshivah have to do with siddur kid-

dushin?” Today, ask any young man,“Who’s going to be the mesader kid-dushin, the rav of the shul or the roshyeshivah?” he’ll also say, “Aza narishekashe, what are you asking? Of coursethe rosh yeshivah! Not the rav.” Untilwe clarify the role of the rav and therole of the rosh yeshivah, we’re notgoing to solve this problem.

Rav Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz wasruach hachaim of Yeshiva Torah Vo-daas. Do you know what he once did inthe month of Nissan? He called all thesenior students together and said,“Who’s going to be in town ShabbosHaGadol?” A few of us raised ourhands. He said, “You and you, go tothis shul to listen to the rav’s ShabbosHaGadol derashah. You go to the othershul. You must attend the Shabbos Ha-Gadol derashah of the rav, and youhave to be there in the congregation.”Which rosh yeshivah today would eversay that? We have to re-institute themutual derech eretz [respect] betweenthe rav and the rosh yeshivah.

One last story: I was at a weddingwith the Ponevezher Rav [Rabbi YosefKahaneman], and one of my colleagueswas supposed to be the mesader kid-dushin and I was supposed to read thekesubah. I said to my colleague, “Let’sbe mechabed [honor] the PonevezherRav, let’s ask him to be the mesaderkiddushin.” So, we go over to him, andthe Ponevezher Rav said, “Me? Whatdo I have to do with siddur kiddushin?I’m a rosh yeshivah. I’m not a rav.” So Isaid, “Give him the reading of the ke-subah.” “Read the kesubah? I don’tknow how to read the kesubah!” thePonevezher Rav said. “I can give ashiur in Masechta Kesubos, but I don’tknow how to read a kesubah! Youknow how to read a kesubah betterthan I do!”

Rabbi Hollander: It is also a fact thatmany rabbis—Orthodox rabbis—arenot learning enough. And [to be arabbi] you have to be a talmidchacham. That’s an absolute, minimumrequirement so that there will be nogreat gap between the rabbi and therosh yeshivah. It shouldn’t be that therosh yeshivah is the talmid chacham,and the rabbi’s [just] a good preacher.The rabbi himself must be mekayem“Vehagisa bo yomam valaylah” [Joshua1:8] and become a talmid chacham, andrecognized as such.

Rabbi Ralph Pelcovitz, hon-ored with the OU’s prestigiousNational Rabbinic LeadershipAward, Distinguished RabbinicLeadership Award and the BenZakkai Society Enid and HaroldH. Boxer Memorial Award, israbbi emeritus of CongregationKneseth Israel in Far Rockaway,New York. A noted author andspeaker, he has lectured exten-sively across the United Statesand Israel. Rabbi Pelcovitz isalso a former president of theRabbinical Alliance of Americaand a member of the OU’sBoard of Directors.



Mr. Savitsky: Friends of mine whoare rabbis tell me that their bestyears for learning were in the beitmidrash. Once they became rabbis,they got too busy with communalobligations.

Rabbi Hollander: All the great rab-banim, like Rav Yitzchok Elchanan, theKovno Rav, and so on, had time to[both] learn and to be rabbanim.

Rabbi Klaperman: By being success-ful, we’re creating a problem. We have

kids studying for a year in Israel andwhen they come home, they won’t eatin their parents’ home. They will go tothe rosh yeshivah. It’s a kind of defeatthat comes with success. I have mem-bers of my congregation whose chil-dren will not daven in my shul becauseit isn’t religious enough. They will goto the rosh yeshivah; they will notcome to me. I’m not offended by it. Ihave a sense of who I am. I have re-spect for the roshei yeshivah. I hopethey have respect for me. I’m not atalmid chacham. The rosh yeshivah’s atalmid chacham. When I was young,I davened in a shtiebel. We had a mag-nificent rav. “Er iz gezesn un hot gel-ernt a gantsn tog.” All day long, he usedto sit and learn. He never knew theoutside world. He never knew me.He never knew anybody else. He wasa successful rav. But he was not a suc-cessful rabbi.

If you would ask me, What wouldI tell a young rabbi he has to do? Iwould say, “You have to sit and learn,because you have to at least recognizethe language. You have to know whatwe’re talking about. That’s numberone. Number two: You have to preach

Torah. Number three: You have to beprepared to serve the congregation inevery way that’s required. Numberfour: You have to be an ambassador tothe rest of the world. If you live in asmall community, you have to be in-volved in the community chest; youhave to be involved in Jewish andChristian relations. You have to standout as a leader. If someone asks a ques-tion that you can’t solve, you’ll channelit to the rosh yeshivah. I’ve had she’eilosthat I wouldn’t dare respond to.

Rabbi Schreier: Questions of ha-lachah should be addressed to thecommunity rabbi. They have nothingto do with the rosh yeshivah, as greatas he may be. We are the communityrabbis—and the community ba’aleibatim should turn to us for everything.So while [relying on the rosheiyeshivah] may be a growing [phenom-enon], it’s not going to change what ul-timately occurs in a community.

Rabbi Grossman: I sent many, manyyoung people away to yeshivahs,baruch Hashem. Then they wouldcome back, and get engaged. “Wouldyou mind, rebbe,” they would ask me,“if my rosh yeshivah is mesader kid-dushin?” And, I tell you, truthfully, Inever mind. Except ba’alei batim mind.Because the rosh yeshivah comes, therosh yeshivah goes. But the staturedimage of their rav is very important.

But today you have a differentkind of rabbi. These are people who . . .the majority of them . . . are not pasukpuma b’girsa, they don’t stop learning.They far surpass, in most instances,the rabbis I had known in Americafifty years ago, in learning, in commit-

ment to frumkeit and in yirasShamayim. We’ve seen a whole newbreed, and much credit goes to theRabbi Isaac Elchanan TheologicalSeminary [RIETS], which has pro-duced rabbis who will go out of town,and function superbly as rabbanim.Their kavod is very important.

My father was a rav in Lakewood.And the rosh yeshivah [there], RavAharon Kotler, was considered, cor-rectly so, as the gadol hador. And therewere chassunahs, especially when theKletzke bochrim, who were saved [fromthe Holocaust], came [to the UnitedStates]. Many of them lived in ourhouse, so they felt a close attachmentto my father. They would want my fa-ther to come to their chassunahs. Butthey would want the rosh yeshivah tobe mesader kiddushin. “Velama lo?Why not?” Rav Aharon refused. He in-sisted that if my father was there, heshould be mesader kiddushin. And thiswas true [as well] for the other rav inLakewood [at the time], who wasmuch younger. That’s why RavAharon was the gadol hador, amongother reasons.

Rabbi Schonfeld: Rav Joseph BerSoloveitchik told us thirty years agothat the tekufah of the rav is [over andthat a new] tekufah of the rosh yeshivahwas beginning. We didn’t quite under-stand what he was trying to say [at thetime], but we can see it today.

The function of a rosh yeshivah isto teach Torah, to be a model to thecommunity, more than the rabbi is. Of-tentimes, a rosh yeshivah is brought infrom Israel to be a mesader kiddushin,at an expense to the [parents]. By thefollowing year, the rosh yeshivah for-gets the talmid’s name! There are greatroshei yeshivah who remain part of thetalmid’s life, and those are outstandingpeople. But the rabbi who lives dayand night with the family should notbe excluded when it comes to times ofjoy. It’s not a question of kavod. It’s aquestion of the function of the rabbi asa servant of the community—an evedHashem and an eved of Klal Yisrael.Very often, [they are] pushed aside.

The function of a rosh yeshivah isnot to get involved in paskening [ren-dering a rabbinic decision] theshe’eilah, unless you ask him. That’sthe function of the rabbanim, whoknow Yoreh Deah. Not that the roshei

Rabbi Fabian Schonfeld, recipient ofthe OU’s National Rabbinic CentennialMedallion Award, serves as rabbi of theYoung Israel of Kew Gardens Hills, NewYork, a position he has held with dis-tinction for fifty-four years. Currentlythe president of Poalei Agudath Israel ofAmerica, as well as past president of theRCA and past chairman of the Councilof Young Israel Rabbis, Rabbi Schonfeldis also the founder of the VaadHarabonim of Queens.



yeshivah don’t know [it], but theirfunction is to set the mode of life tothe talmid. The rabbi’s function is to beinvolved in the life of the congregation.The daily life; the day-to-day prob-lems. We have to find a modus vivendiof not overlapping each other.

Mr. Savitsky: We see the majorcathedral synagogue of yesteryearvanishing and being replaced by theshtiebel. We see that even in largercongregations, there are spinoffswhere people daven in homes forMinchah and Maariv. What are yourthoughts about the “shtiebeliza-tion” of America? Is it good? Is itterrible? Is it pareve?

Rabbi Schonfeld: We have to make adistinction between a Chassidisheshtiebel and a shtiebel that is a break-away from a shul. Chassidisheshtieblach serve a very important pur-pose. Gerrer Chassidim, as my familyis, or Vishnitz or Satmar or Lubavitch,want to daven with their own people,and take directions from a central au-thority, the rebbe. It’s really a kehillah.What the rebbe says is spread to all [ofthis Chassidic group’s] shtiebelsthroughout the world. This kind ofshtiebel is important to Jewish life.[The other kind of shtiebel is created]when people don’t like the chazzan orthe rabbi. Those shtiebels are harmful.They are destructive of the sense ofthe Jewish kehillah.

Mr. Savitsky: Are you saying thatthere’s never justification for abreakaway shul? Don’t breakawayshuls help a community grow?

Rabbi Schonfeld: There are good rea-sons for starting a new shul, such as[if] the shul in which one davens is nothalachically acceptable. But to justcome into the community and say,“You and I think alike . . . let’s makeour own minyan” [is not a legitimatereason]. Before you know it, that min-yan will have breakaways from itself.The strength of Klal Yisrael is not theminyan, it’s the kehillah, which is con-cerned about everything that goes on inthe community.

Rabbi Hollander: Shtiebels have, un-fortunately, replaced the biggest con-gregations. But the synagogues were

not innocent. They did not provide the[people with] proper spiritual nourish-ment. Certain people decided that[that synagogue was] not for them, andthey davened elsewhere, or in the samebuilding in a different room. The beishaknesses and the beis hamidrash eachhas its own place in the ShulchanAruch. . . .There are, in fact, halachicdifferences between the two. In someways, the beis haknesses has superior-ity—it doesn’t need a mezuzah, whilethe beis midrash does. The synagogueitself, by not adhering sufficiently tothe requirements of the ShulchanAruch [with regard to the laws pertain-ing to] kedushas beis haknesses, hasbrought about the situation wheretoday, American Orthodox Jews wantwhat they think is the “real thing,” andnot [a substitute].

At the same time, I want you toknow that the Chasam Sofer objected

to the creation of a new congregationin Pressberg even though it was 100percent Orthodox. He said it wasnot needed—there was an existingcongregation.

Rabbi Pelcovitz: We should ask, Isthere a role for the cathedral syna-gogue in the present Jewish society, asthere might have been thirty or fortyyears ago? The answer is, We alwaysserve the needs of the populace.

Synagogue Jews always associatedthe synagogue with the big shul intown. And they were the only oneswho could afford to have a rav . . . andto offer different kinds of activities.[These synagogues] were the addressfor every Jewish need, be it here or inEretz Yisrael.

This generation no longer reallyneeds the cathedral synagogue. If your

customers no longer need your prod-uct, they’re going to go elsewhere.That’s why, when [new synagogues arebuilt], physically, they … [are] smaller.

Then, of course, there is alwaysthe ego involved. There are peoplewho need to be the rosh [head] and notthe zanav [tail]. You can’t have thatmany heads, you can’t have that manyzanavim. But, in the final analysis, peo-ple who need to feel important get lostin the bigger shuls.

[Since] the trend is going to besmaller rather than bigger shuls, thequestion is, Will there . . . be a rav inthe community or not? Many of thesesmaller shuls have rabbanim, but . . . inorder to make parnassah, [they] endup teaching part time in an educationalinstitution. As a result, they are notable to fully serve as the rav of a shulor of a community. I suggest that thesesmaller shuls, which serve a purpose

and fulfill the needs of the congre-gants, should not necessarily all have arav. There should be a re-institution ofthe rav of a kehillah.

Rabbi Grossman: Someone hasburied the Shulchan Aruch, buried theRambam. What is the halachah about ashul? Do you have to have a shul? Doyou have to have what people refer to,as a misnomer, the cathedral? That’s aChristian term. And why does the ha-lachah require a big shul? And why dowe ignore it? “Berov am hadrasmelech!” It is part of the wholehadrachah. “Shtiebelization” began along time ago. Its purpose and missionwas not really for greater frumkeit.How we wish it were, but in mostcases [the shtiebel was created for] thesocial aspect. My group, my chevrah,

Rabbi Max N. Schreier has been therabbi of the Avenue N Jewish Center inBrooklyn for the past forty-five years. Heis a past president of the RCA and ofRIETS. He has received a Doctor of Divin-ity degree from Yeshiva University for dis-tinguished service to the Yeshiva and tothe American Jewish community. He isalso a past president of the VaadHarabonim of Flatbush. Rabbi Schreier isa member of the OU Board of Governors.


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my friends go to this shtiebel, et cetera.And then a whole new dialogue wascreated: “What time did you get out?”“What time was davening over with?”This is not the vernacular of bneiTorah, of people who have a sense ofsignificance. But, the question is, Whatdo we Orthodox Jews look like in theeyes of the vast majority [of Jews] whoare not Orthodox? If we look like theshtiebel, then “I [the non-OrthodoxJew] don’t belong, because this is aclose-knit social entity.” Do [the non-Orthodox] see this magnificent shul asbeing Orthodoxy? Then Orthodoxymust be important and authentic. Doesit have the positive elements of theshtiebel? A sense of warmth. A sense ofdavening that is real; song and joy. Andwhat about the sermon? Is it pompous?The shul can be a magnificent asset,and do you know what? “Mesoras avo-seinu beyadeinu.” My father davened ina shul—don’t call it a cathedral, it of-fends me. My zeide did. My great-greatgrandfather did, too. Doros [genera-tions] did. And I don’t want to change.I want to do what the Jews of the pasthave done.

Rabbi Schreier: There is a place forthe [large, cathedral-style] shul be-cause of all the communal needs. Onehas to fight strongly, creatively, inorder to make the [cathedral] shulmore acceptable. Rabbi Grossman’sdifferentiation between New York andthe rest of the country is valid; thisparticular problem does [not exist asmuch] in the rest of the country as itdoes in my particular community. Wehave a duty to find a way to preservethe “big shul,” to make it more relevantto the current climate.

Mr. Savitsky: What are the qualitiesof a good lay leader? As a rav of ashul, what do you look for in layleadership? Have there been anyba’alei batim who’ve crossed yourpath, who made a mark on you andon your shul?

Rabbi Schonfeld: [A good lay leadermust have] the desire to serve KlalYisrael, not to serve himself. Not tosee his name as president of a shul. Hemust understand that he has a positionof great responsibility. It doesn’t makea difference whether he’s president ofthe OU, or president of the RCA or

president of Agudath Israel. He has tobe able to give up some of his personallife. He has to travel when he may notwant to. He has to leave the family[at] home, just like the rabbi [does].And a good president is one whoworks hand in hand with the rabbi, as agood rabbi works hand in hand withthe president. “Vayeilchu sheneihemyachdav” [Genesis 22:8]. The most im-

portant thing is to avoid any kind ofconflict between the rabbi and thesynagogue administration.

Rabbi Klaperman: Herbert Tenzerwas my mentor and my very dearfriend. He taught me something veryinteresting: How does one become aleader? Everybody wants to do theright thing, but 90 percent of thosewho want to do the right thing wait forsomebody else to do it. He was a manwho never waited for somebody elseto do anything. One of his dearestfriends was Sister Rose Thering, a re-markable nun who, together with him,founded the American-Israel Friend-ship League. She, through her connec-tions, and he through his, were able tocreate a situation where Jews and Gen-tiles worked together for the State ofIsrael. He became chairman of theBoard of Directors of Yeshiva Univer-

sity. He was behind the first fundrais-ing opportunity we undertook in theFive Towns [in New York] for the Al-bert Einstein College of Medicine [ofYeshiva University]. He was a greatdoer, and ended up in Washington, DC,as a congressman.

One year, Congress was in sessionduring Rosh Hashanah, and Herbertcalled me and asked, “What do I do

now?” I said, “Look you have to bethere. That’s your job.” He said, “Yes,but my job is to daven on RoshHashanah.” So he arranged for the useof a room in the Capitol to be used forRosh Hashanah services. We sent himmachzorim, a ba’al tefillah and a ba’altekiah. That was a remarkable accom-plishment. He was a man who gave hislife for Yiddishkeit, for charity, forservice and for true kiruv. And he didit without the desire for either creditor respect.

Rabbi Pelcovitz: I had the pleasure ofhaving many, many outstanding ba’aleibatim in my shul. I remember when Ibecame a rav, my father, who had beena rav for many years, gave me two be-rachos. One was that I should neverhave a president who thinks he’s atalmid chacham. The second was that Ishould never have a president with a



good memory. Over the years, I was very fortunate to have people in

our shul who were leaders of the American Jewish commu-nity, on different levels. That was not thanks to my inspira-tion. I tried to keep them in line, so that eventually theywould rise to the level that they were entitled to in the firstplace, as water always finds its level. And they become partof the total Jewish community—that’s really what a shul isall about.

Mr. Savitsky: It’s the nurturing ground.

Rabbi Pelcovitz: Teach and nurture. And this is some-thing, that with all of our understanding of why people areattracted to smaller shuls, will never be duplicated by[them]. We still have a need for synagogues that are fromthe old form and the old style. And we have to try to con-vince our yeshivaleit that this is what gives strength, healthand hope to a community.

Rabbi Grossman: The question people always asked is,“How is it that Memphis, of all places, has the largest Ortho-dox congregation in the United States?” There are variousanswers you can give. In the South, less than 1 percent ofJews affiliate with Orthodoxy. And in Memphis, baruchHashem, it’s substantially over 30 percent.

Two people are really responsible for it—a lot of uslike to take credit, including myself, but it’s not so. But SamMargolin, alav hashalom, was in shul every day. There wasnever a shiur I gave that he did not attend. And he was atitan in business. He founded what was the largest inde-pendent mortgage company in America—closed Shabbos,closed on yom tov. He was an extremely intelligent, won-derful, highly cultured and very articulate person—and agreat spokesman for Torah and Jewish education. Theother individual was Philip Belz, alav hashalom. Philip Belzwas considered by many to be the wealthiest Jew, if not thewealthiest person, in Mid America. He was a Jew wholoved to do mitzvos. He inspired his son, Jack, to do thesame. And he put his money where his mouth was. He builtour previous shul [Baron Hirsch Congregation]—whichwas “zeh Keili v’anveihu.” It was the largest shul on Earth—and Orthodox. And he wouldn’t have it any other way.While all of the other Orthodox shuls in the South, thelarge ones, went to the non-Orthodox or disappeared,Baron Hirsch continued to grow. We had these extraordi-nary . . . prototypes [who showed] that you can be re-spected in business, venerated in the community and a Jewin the fullest sense of the word. Many turned to Yiddishkeit[because of these role models].

Mr. Savitsky: Thank you all for participating in this his-toric discussion. We, the Jewish community, are in-debted to all of you for all you’ve done to help preserve,defend and grow Jewish life.

Special thanks to Menacham Ejdelman, program associ-ate at YIVO, for his assistance in preparing this article.


#1 On Our Agenda

JerusaJerusa Keep It One. Kee

Monday 11/23TOURS: Jerusalem, The Eternal City OR Northern Negev

EVENING: Rabbi Zev Leff

Tuesday 11/24TOURS: In the Footsteps of the Tanna’im OR Northern Coast

EVENING: Shiur + YLC video “Hungry to be Heard”

Wednesday 11/25TOURS: In the Days of the Judges OR Central Israel

EVENING: Offi cial Convention Opening: Israel’s Chief Rabbis /

Journalists Round Table

Thursday 11/26JERUSALEM DAY: Lobbying for Unity of Israel’s Eternal Capital /

Foreign Ministry / ’67: The Battle for Jerusalem

EVENING: Keynote Address, Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks

Friday 11/27MORNING: Yad Vashem Tour OR Jerusalem Walking Tour

Shabbat 11/30Inspiring Tefi llot / Superior Se’udot / Outstanding Shiurim

by Chief Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau; Rabbi Hershel Schachter;

Rabbi Steven Weil; Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb;

Mrs. Shira Smiles; and others.

Motza’ei ShabbatConcert with Shlomo Katz

More Highlights of the Convention Agenda

Orthodox Union

Thanksgiving WeekNovember 2008

Ramada Hotel Jerusalem

a:alemaepBackupFall08B.qxd:Layout 1 8/22/08 11:00 AM Page 40

daJerusaaee

For program details and to register,

visit www.ou.org/convention

or call 212.613.8188

a:alemalemep It Ours.Spectacular touring and program choices each day.

Special delegation to government leaders urging the unity of Jerusalem.

On-the-spot briefi ngs about Jerusalem’s status and vital needs.

Custom-themed tours—”3000 Years in 36 Hours” and “An Exceedingly Good Land.”

Decision-making sessions that will guide North American and World Jewry in the years ahead.

Shiurim from many of the great leaders of our community all week and over Shabbat.

Working breakfasts for shul rabbanim and lay leaders.

Belong to an OU-Member Synagogue?Travel and hotel costs for designated shul delegates are tax-deductible in accordance with IRS rules.

Have Children Studying in Israel This Year or Next?Individual yeshiva and seminary visits arranged courtesy of Lander Colleges.

Considering Aliyah?Explore real opportunities at an on-the-spot job fair and Israel communities expo.

Make This a Top-Notch Israel Mission for Your ShulTake advantage of the OU’s expertise, resources and access to unique locations to provide your members with a unique and memorable experience. Large contingents can choose to tour with their own bus and guide. Call Frank Buchweitz at 212.613.8188 to discuss arrangements.

Early Bird Discount!Register now for all-inclusive Convention package

(Wednesday dinner-Sunday breakfast): $699,

or for entire week (Sunday to Sunday): $1059*

*includes tours, hotel, and all Convention meals.

Program subject to change.


fifty years in the pulpit: seven veteran rabbis tell it...

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