for the record dance review panel transcript
TRANSCRIPT
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
1/39
________________________________________________________________________
1
FOR THE RECORD Edited Transcript
10 OCTOBER 2009
AT TAPAC
SF: Speakers from the floor
Transcript of Interview
Linda: Celine Sumic and I have been planning this for some time now and while
unfortunately Celine cant be here today shell be missed and it wont be
the same without her. Shes been the driving force behind this event and
its a pity she cant be here to share the fun that were going to have
today.
Were very grateful to Creative New Zealand for their financial support of
this event and would also like to extend a big thank you to DANZ Tamaki
and Susan Jordan, who was there for advice and support throughout.
Basically what were going to do is look at the different approaches that
reviewers have, because I think we are all quite different people and
certainly when we sit down and write reviews Im guessing we come from
very different planets. So its going to be quite interesting to see what
everybody does today.
Also were going to hopefully engage in some interplay between dancewriters as opposed to reviewers, choreographers and dancers; the
different kinds of ways of thinking and what we share in common as well
as the differences between us. Your interpretations, well thats going to
be another matter entirely and that Im going to leave to John to herd the
cats later on.
Im not going to say much more because Im more interested in what the
panel has got to say, but I am going to introduce John Smythe who until
today to me was just a person behind a screen, and I did wonder what he
would look like in the flesh.
John: I should say Ive got an identical twin brother in Auckland, so if Ive met
you today and then I ignore you in the street thats my brother Michael.
Linda: John were very, very grateful to have you here today, and Ill just
introduce John and then the rest of the panel. John Smythe's going to
chair the panel today and Im going to read the details of his amazing
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
2/39
________________________________________________________________________
2
experience.
Decades of practical experience as an actor, scriptwriter and director,
producer, teacher and advocate for the performing arts. Quote a born
again New Zealander. He has a bachelor of Dramatic Arts from
Australias National Institute of Dramatic Arts. He has also writtentheatre reviews for The Melbourne Times, The Australian, Theatre
AustraliaMagazine and The National Business Review. John is the author
ofDownstage Upfront, The First 40 years of New Zealands Longest
Running Professional Theatre and also of the Peace Monster an
historical novel based on the Opo story. To keep his role as a critic in
perspective John participates in an annual play reading at
Victoria University of Tom Stoppards The Real Inspector Hound, in
which he and Harry Rickets play the extremely dodgy theatre critics
Birdboot and Moon. So a man of vast experience, Im sure youll agree
with me on that.
Okay, so from your left to right, thats because Im a dance teacher in my
other life, I am actually a dance writer and choreographer myself, and I
lecture at AUT University, but enough of me.
First is Jack (Gray). Jack is an independent dance writer, choreographer
and performer with amazing charisma and Ill be a testament, I love
watching you Jack - thank you for coming today.
Jennifer (Shennan) has come up from Wellington and while not on the
same plane as John they did meet up in the airport so they could share a
taxi. Im sure many of you will know Jennifer as a highly regarded
independent dance writer, critic and anthropologist of great note; I have
admired Jennifers work for many years and its absolutely fabulous to see
you again, Jennifer - thank you so much for being here.
Next is the lovely Francesca Horsley who has a very busy life juggling her
role at McLeans College, with that as our esteemed editor of the DANZ
Quarterly magazine, also writing and reviewing for The Listeneramongst
other publications - and thank you Francesca for coming today.
On the far left is Nicholas Rowe who works at the University of Aucklandand who has written dance reviews for Dance Europe as well as for
Theatreview, (of which John of course is the owner, editor and lead
dramatic on the Theatreview web site). Im sure a lot of you have been
on the site and read some of our reviews over the last few days, and
maybe you have some thoughts youd like to share with us later about
our reviews.
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
3/39
________________________________________________________________________
3
Carrie Rae: Theyre also up on the wall in the foyer as well.
Linda: Oh yeah, thanks Carrie Rae. Okay so enough from me, thank you
panelists once again for coming and Ill hand you over to the capable
hands of Mr Smythe.
John: Thank you. This event is called For the Record and I think the thing
were recognising in the title is that dance is an ephemeral form, it exists
in the moment and then disappears. Unlike theatre, its not easily
available in script form. Although there are ways of notating it, only
experts can read it. So, one of the functions of reviewing is to write an
ephemeral event into history. I think Im quoting from Miltons
headstone or something where it says their work is written water.
Most of you would agree that even though you can get a video record of
a stage performance, its not ideal. It may be a good historical record,
but it doesnt actually represent the same experience you have sitting in
the live audience.
What I would like today to be is a sort of mutual inquiry into the
questions of criticism, rather than us being the experts up here
pontificating. Were here to open up some questions and discuss them
between ourselves and then open it to the floor.
What I propose we do is that - there are four questions that weve
mapped out as starting points, and after that all hell can break loose.
Meanwhile if anybody has got something to say on a particular question,
please put your hand up and well include you then. I dont want to limit
participation from the floor to questions; I think thats a bit arrogant to
say you can only ask the experts on high so if youve got a statement to
make thats perfectly okay by me, but initially if we just stick to the topic
of each of the questions and then we can open it up later on.
Weve got till 4 oclock so hopefully there will be time to get stuck into
some areas we might not have even thought of that are very important
to you. I think the overall quest is for continuous improvement, and that
would include all of us here on the reviewing side wanting to
continuously improve our part. I would imagine anybody whos a
practitioner is onto that quest as well.
What I would like to be able to answer at the end of this is what is it that
makes critics critical? in every sense of the term. Are we important at all
and critical in that sense? Jennifer pointed out that critical is also a
medical term that means that close to death. Of course theres the
critiquing dimension of it too.
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
4/39
________________________________________________________________________
4
So, the first area is the question of the two extremes of the importance of
a critic as being expert, or ignorant; a blank sheet or someone with a
whole lot of preconceptions. Its quite an interesting span to investigate.
Im going to ask Jack to lead with that one, Jack being a practitioner as
well obviously you have some expertise.
Jack: Yeah, I think when I started writing I went to Europe and my writing was
a way of being able to get into the communities over there as an
outsider, and to make comment and understand part of the culture. Not
knowing a lot of the different cultures that I was going to see. I was
seeing Dance Theatre that was talking about, say, Croatian history, which
I knew nothing about and they were speaking in different languages, and
I couldnt read the programme. I didnt know anybody to tell me
anything about it, and I didnt know these people, so it created a way that
I had to perceive what was happening on another level without actually
knowing the details of what it was, and finding a way of translating and
communicating that.
Coming back to New Zealand to live, to choreograph and to work, writing
about dance is an off-shoot for me where I can bring that level of
expertise from the practice of doing, and then commenting on these
social and political cultural issues, that I know from being a New
Zealander, that may or may not be within the world.
Sometimes its quite difficult in that I know everybody and I know people
who Im writing about. So maybe last week we went to a party together,
and now Im sitting back and I have an immense sympathy for the artist,knowing the struggle as choreographer and performer to being in an
intense period of creating a work and then and then putting it out there
in the public arena.
While I think its an incredible process, and thats totally why we do it, as
a performer when I talk to people after shows, about things that theyve
seen of mine, hearing different responses, sometimes I feel like theyre
totally off track, or maybe theyve seen things that I dont see - and so its
from the space in-between that we inform each other.
Im interested in not being judgmental or critical of that person or theirideas but in trying to further through my writing ways in which we can
connect with what they may be doing.
John: Youve raised some interesting (points). So Jennifer where do you stand
in terms of the issue of ignorance or expertise? How do you ?
Jennifer: Well that word expert, I found a quote from Oscar Wilde that an
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
5/39
________________________________________________________________________
5
expert is a person whos often in error, but never in doubt, so I thought
there was something there.
I really hear what Jacks saying about a Croatian performance when all he
can get is what he can see and feel. And the other extreme, of knowing
your cousins brothers classmate is in a performance that youre writingabout, and you just go with all of those things, its a bit like knowing
people whore not even performing now. I look around and I see some
very dear friends from a long time back, students and colleagues and so
on, and yet others are new faces to me. Were all here to try and see and
hear and do something together this afternoon. So what am I saying?
If youre going to write about a performance, you better do that, and if it
involves a word count and a deadline you have to work within those
guidelines. Other times its not so constrained, and its all better the
more voices that can be heard. Its not great when one voice alone
appears in a daily paper and its typed and done in 20 minutes. Noexcuses for that, its just the chips, but thats - it shouldnt be the only
voice. It has to be its own voice, but the more people who can discuss
that, perhaps,
We have to credit John Smythe for running Theatreview, thats a
phenomenal pioneering and soldiering-on thing to be doing, unfunded
for ages, progress congratulations etc. But its a forum where you dont
want to write a review of the review and be sort of just throwing stuff
back and forth, but you can be motivated by something you saw and if
you thought oh its not what I thought you can say something more.
So, just - many voices, and Linda and Celines enterprise today for this
discussion is just another way to help us see that there is something
called a crit, and its a pity that the word has to do so many different
duties. It sounds negative, critical in some context - to be critical of
someone say oh you didnt clean your shoes and didnt blow your nose
type word. It shouldnt be that. Critique is sometimes a bit hard to take,
sometimes a bit hard to write, but it is a form (of reflection on a
performance) that will last and help you to remember your (experience
of the work) longer. If the option is to have had no crit at all then Im not
sure thats a comfort I would choose.
John: Someone pointed out that critic and criteria are from the same root, so
you comment on the basis of criteria that you set out for good or bad I
suppose; on some spectrum between good and bad there are certain
criteria that you intuitively or consciously bring to your criticism.
So Francesca, where do you sit on this question of coming, not so much
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
6/39
________________________________________________________________________
6
with ignorance, but with an open mind I suppose to a review as opposed
to a set of, if not preconceptions, a body of knowledge that youve got?
Francesca: Well, just to look at the second quote, it says, The first tool for a critic is
not knowledge or research but sensibility. I didnt have a chance to look
up the word sensibility but I always think of Jane Austin, (sensibility) asopposed to sense.
John: Sense and /or Sensibility, yes.
Francesca: But thinking about the processes I bring to (a review of) a dance
performance, I was thinking in terms of the word senses and I think that
you cant really be a critic unless you have senses, the open senses.
From my point of view I starting loving dance long before I had any
research or knowledge. I had an open heart to dance and it reaches into
my senses, so in a sense thats the first element that I bring to a show Isee.
Because Im not a dance practitioner, although I have danced myself, and
studied and taught dance, I am also a trained writer, so thats the other
aspect that I bring to it. So I marry those components; writing, the senses
and research, which I always try and do. If Im reviewing ballet or
something I do a lot of research before I see it if I dont know it really well
or (I draw on) the research Ive gathered from my (previous) studies.
So I looked at the question (of ignorance vs expertise) and was thinking -
its not really one or the other, but you bring all those elements together,and that gives a reviewer the validity of something of an expert, if you
marry those things together.
I also agree with Jack and Jennifer that we do need that - because one of
the other questions we are looking at is the issue of subjectivity and
objectivity, and of course our sensibilities are very subjective. So we
need many perspectives, many voices and many different ways of writing
and seeing.
John: Okay Nick, what have you got to say on this one?
Nicholas: I love the word critic, and I think its a perfect word for what we do.
Were not setting out to be dance teachers or dance connoisseurs or
dance history or dance experts, were there to present a critical
argument on the dance and critical argument requires three things:
opinion, a reasonable rationale for that opinion and evidence to support
that reasonable rationale. And that can come from anyone, it doesnt
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
7/39
________________________________________________________________________
7
require someone with any knowledge whatsoever of the piece theyre
going to see. In fact if we start to suggest that there should be some sort
of expertise relevant to the field of the show that were going to see, its
going to marginalise that art form very quickly. If we say okay, the only
person who can go and see ballet or properly critique ballet is someone
who has this deep knowledge of ballet, youre going to be writing topeople therefore from a position that suggests that people might have
less knowledge than they do on ballet. Its going to separate that form
from others in the community.
I mean if Im getting a criticism, Im happy, you know, if its a
fundamentalist Islamic cleric whos going along to write a criticism as long
as they present those three forms of the criticism; opinion, rationale and
some evidence. Then youre going to help make the dance form a more
inclusive part of their society, and therefore help foster a multicultural
society. So I think we have to be very careful about moving to any
idealism or expertism. Sure experts are important if its going to be a
dance teacher or a dance historian or a dance connoisseur or in some
other form of dance writing. If were talking about criticism all that really
matters is an ability to construct a critical argument and bring it to the
dance.
John: Do you believe, or does anyone believe that a passion for the art form
youre critiquing is a pre-requisite?
Nicholas: Not at all, no I think if we demand that as well it makes for an immediate
bias -
John: So youre happy for instance for a sports writer to go along and review
the ballet, because they were the only one that wanted to?
Nicholas: Not because theyre the only one that wanted to, Id imagine theres a lot
of people whod want to, but Id value hearing that persons opinion as
much as any, as long as they can substantiate it within an argument,
theyre not just presenting an opinion, but an argument based on a
rationale and the reasons why. Because thatll give me an insight into
what ballet means to that sector of the society.
John: But what if theyve been told to go and do it, and they say look, Id
rather watch a rugby match and this load is a load of wank?
Nicholas: Well again - thats getting into an institutional problem of how a
newspaper may be structured, but again, as long as hes going in and hes
presenting those three things that I mentioned, an argument, a rationale
for the argument and evidence, its still going to be worth it. If he does,
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
8/39
________________________________________________________________________
8
as you say, he says its a load of wank and doesnt give any evidence or
rationale, then yes I wouldnt value it at all, and it wont be a dance
criticism, itll just be a dance commentary.
Francesca: So are you talking about off the cuff criticism or published dance
criticism?
Nicholas: Published dance criticism.
Francesca: Because I went to the ballet yesterday to see the launch of the Southern
Lights Company and behind me were sitting some Christchurch,
Southland people. Who - their criticism was very valid because they
compared it entirely with rugby, and their view was that it was very
boring and in fact that theyd much rather have seen, you know, a rugby
match. Now while they were there supporting their wives, they were in
the foyer making a lot of noise with their voices, so the criticism was well
heard - so the validity of that?
Nicholas: Well this isnt talking about published criticism this is just talking about a
manner of people in a foyer. Whether theyre saying really great things
and whether theyre speaking as experts or whatever, that can be
disturbing as a social experience. But I think the point is, if those people
were able to construct an argument, and said well this is why I didnt like
it, and this is the proof. Where they did that type of dance and when
they did that sort of jump, that meant this to me. Then theyre
presenting an argument, it makes it valid, and you think well thats a valid
criticism. Maybe from that open learning, try to figure out actually how
to make ballet a little bit more relevant for that sector of the society,
rather than just thinking, well theyre uncouth, they should just listen to
the experts who know what dance is about.
John: Jennifer, thank you.
Jennifer: A quick question; (consider) a scenario where a ballet performance will
take place and there are three works, one of which is called Bliss based
on a story by Katherine Mansfield. The choreographer has commissioned
some music for the work etc. Would you not want to read Katherine
Mansfields Bliss before you went along just to give yourself a little bit ofspring?
Nick: From me as a critic?
Jennifer: Well for any individual, as you say, describing what you see and arguing
for it. Would you choose not to read the story?
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
9/39
________________________________________________________________________
9
Nicholas: The thing is, I wouldnt privilege myself having read the story or see my
criticism as more valid over someone who hadnt read the story. Again, it
would come down to, well I could read the story but Im not trying to
write it again as a critic. Im not trying to write a history or an academic
analysis, Im not trying to write a theoretical understanding of where the
influences were in this choreography - Im simply trying to present acritical argument.
Jennifer: So youre not going to read Bliss before you go, I definitely would.
Nicholas: If I didnt Id say, - Id really have to see the book engagement fully to be
honest, I wouldnt therefore say oh well your criticism would be
therefore far more valid than mine because youve read the book, so -
what really matters is the argument constructed, the critical discourse
provoked, the rationale and evidence is given; it can help us take a hold
of that and agree or disagree with it.
SF: If Ive got my Sunday paper and have read something about the ballet
that youve just seen and I can see quite clearly that you havent read
something to preempt yourself and give yourself more knowledge about
what youre going to see and share with me as a reader - I want to know
that you would maybe know a little bit about it. Sure I think its great if
you go along, and say yeah I saw that, and it was great but youre
presenting a published piece of work that Im reading on Sunday so I
want to know that you know what youve seen more than just your eyes
that night.
Nicholas: The thing is I dont think anyone comes to a dance performance ignorant
I think (the concept of) ignorance is rather misguided because
everybody comes with knowledges of different forms that represent the
different cultures and facets of society that they come from.
SF: I guess Im talking about the responsibility as a critic?
Nicholas: Yeah, but I dont think one does have that responsibility to put on an air
of being an expert, to suggest well Im enabled to present a constructed
argument, a critical argument because Ive done so much more research
than you have on this topic.
SF: No..
Nicholas: Well that seems to be the suggestion here - that if you havent gone and
read about it or certainly know a lot more about this topic, then you
dont have the position to be presenting something to read on a Sunday
morning?
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
10/39
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
11/39
________________________________________________________________________
11
John: And I think the thing is, who you are writing for. If you write esoterically
for an esoteric audience then thats a completely different thing than
someone with a level of expertise and experience and understanding
articulating a response and evidence for whether they felt it worked or
not or whether they - I mean, you cant critique the adaptation if you
havent read or seen the original material. You can obviously expressyour view about what you experienced in the moment, but the question
is knowing who your audience is, and if youre writing for the general
public then your job is to is to convey your critique in a way that the
general public can either confirm the feelings that they had, and are not
able to articulate themselves perhaps. Or understand a bit more about
things that they may have appreciated or not appreciated. Theres
something that I wanted to say, but yeah.
SF: Is it therefore important or the responsibility of the reviewer to help
communicate where they are coming from when you are sitting in there?
John: I think youve got to be quite honest about whether youve got prior
knowledge or not. I mean I saw Pericles the other day, I didnt actually
write the review, someone else did, but Ive never seen Pericles before
and I thought, I wont read anything about it, Ill just go and see it - and I
was absolutely stunned. I got it absolutely clearly; it was as good as an
episode ofOutrageous Fortune.
It was done in Chinese and Japanese theatrical conventions, and they
elucidated the thing so clearly, I am amazed at the capacity of university
students these days to do Shakespeare, largely because most of themhave participated in the Sheilah Winn Shakespeare and they have such
passion and understanding, and communicate so clearly.
I was delighted to have come with a complete blank mind to that, and to
have tasted the quality of it. But if I go to a Hamlet, I cant help but know
the thing backwards.
SF: Dont you think your review then of Pericles becomes almost more valid
than your review of Hamlet, because you are experiencing it using your
senses. Youve still got your passion for theatre and your toolbox of
expertise, but its a much more visceral and perhaps genuine responseand in regards to what Nick was saying, its kind of amazing for a person
who goes along without convictions and knowledge, that always is
interesting and valid.
John: I think its very important - and would everyone agree with me? - that if
you do have a knowledge of the work youre going to see - a classic or
(well known contemporary work) - that you have to make a conscious
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
12/39
________________________________________________________________________
12
effort to clear your mind of any preconception to be receptive to what is
being presented. Its not our job to say, well if I was choreographing it or
directing it, this is what I would have done.
Nicholas: Why not?
John: Well because these people
Nicholas: Just pulling it back to a critic just being somebody whos presenting a
critic label, why are we trying to set around a parameter as to what other
influences they should bring? I think if theyre coming in as an artist who
would say well, yes if I had done it I would have done it this way and this
is why and this is what they didnt do and they present that argument
then theyre contributing a critical discourse on the subject.
John: Sure.
Nicholas: So theyre fulfilling their role as a critic
John: I think, to be respectful of the artist as someone who has worked for
weeks or months on their interpretation, our first responsibility is to be
open to that. Then if we find flaws in it or we want to compare it to
something else including what we would have done if we had the
opportunity, sure. But to block your receptiveness to their work because
youve got this preconception would I think be irresponsible.
Nicholas: Thats a different idea from the notion of not wanting to critique it from
the perspective of an artist. Inevitably for those of us who are dancers,we are going to take that with us. It doesnt mean we go in with a sense
of, well this is how I would do La Slyphide and whatever theyre going to
do is going to fall short but you are going to view it from that perspective,
so I think trying to nullify that doesnt necessarily help the critical
process.
John: Yes?
SF: Just a comment, your process seems to be a process that academics use
when putting together dissertations or theses, and the process that a
barrister has to put together to when present an argument at court. Thedifference is probably that, in so far as opinions are subjective, the
rationale part of it has to be understanding your own responses and
putting those forward.
Nicholas: Exactly, but I dont see a distinction there between the word academic
and any other person in the world who is constructing a critical
argument. I mean, we can certainly take a clich question of what an
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
13/39
________________________________________________________________________
13
academic or a barrister might be, and suggest oh, theyre going to
(construct their argument) in a very clinical way
Again, what I think happens when one does a really good review, and
presents a good critical discourse on dance is that those elements
become apparent. You say, oh yes theyre presenting a clear opinion,theyre not wishy-washy or uncertain; theyve given a reason why and
then shown, given illustrations and examples from the work or from
society to support their opinion and give us an insight. When they
construct it like that we can then take hold of it as a critical discourse and
engage with it, take it further now. Again, words like critical discourse
are, yes, academic, but I think the same process pervades the tabloid
newspaper process.
SF: And being subjective and objective.
Nicholas: Not at all, no, because I think you might be subjective also when youreconstructing a critical argument.
John: And, as you mentioned, the barristers job is to argue a certain side of the
thing, it may not be their personal opinion, but their job is to argue from
the polarities so that you get to some sort of truth -
SF: When you get your rationale, thats when you get to the objectivity -
Nicholas: Not at all, but in any case, youre never going to - nobodys every going to
construct a completely objective argument. Theyre always going to be
subjective, but for it to go beyond the process of being an opinion, andthis is where I think the distinction is from what a critic is and what is
often passed off as criticism, it is actually just an opinion even if its from
someone who has an expertise or knowledge in the topic. Is when they
distinctly say well this is what I thought of it, without having to explain
why, without giving illustrations, then thats what subjective and
opinionated; also its subjective when you present it a complete
argument theres no sense of oh, Ive now removed myself to a higher
plane because Im presenting Im just going into a deeper process thats
all.
John: You had questions?
SF: Yeah I think one of the dilemmas in dancers arts is theres such small
number of reviews. When you read the reviews of the rugby on the
weekend, there are usually about five reviews of the same game, and
they are all speaking from their own voices, they all see different parts of
the game, and theyre all biased in their own way. But I love reading the
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
14/39
________________________________________________________________________
14
different ones, you know, (inaudible) will always pick up on this and such
and such will always pick up on that. At the end you come away with all
these different angles, its like watching it on TV with five cameras getting
it in slow motion: the big shot, the long shot. So I think the important
thing is for each reviewer to have their voice, so that as the audience, the
person whos choosing whether to spend their $20 on this show or thatshow, or go to a movie, or just not go out at all. Then they can make an
informed decision.
John: I think we ought to also compliment Raewyn Whyte on her indefatigable
efforts sending out (notification of) every review (via her dance news
email list). I think that the whole point is that its all part of the bigger
conversation. Nothing is written in stone, its going to go on long after
weve departed this mortal coil. The important thing is that by writing it,
it is there, for the use of Its amazing when I realise how much of the
stuff that turns up on Theatreview is probably being used as we speak by
people writing essays or theses.
SF: There has been at minimum mostly two reviews of all the tempo shows,
occasionally three if you also read YellingMouth.
John: Yeah.
SF: And the Luminere ones arent out yet because they take a long time to
put theirs out. So unless you only pick up the Herald, youll find your
reviews online, you cant buy them any more, you basically have to go
online to see. During the Auckland Festival we were in the amazing
position of having seven or eight reviews of some individual shows online
simply because people could.
Linda: Also during the Auckland Festival Metro Magazine did that amazing daily
sheet, which had reviews of shows from the night before and was
incredibly helpful - especially in a festival setting where youve got two to
three shows and thats it. If you wait around for a Herald review after the
weekend, you will have missed it; you will have read about it, but your
chance to actually see it and make a decision for yourself was very
limited.
Jennifer: That is quite an important point, in the sense that in writing a review that
you know will get published and read while the season is still running,
there is an ethical under current to that and that I admire totally Nicks -
John: Nick, yeah.
Jennifer: I always admire an uncompromising stand. But what if you went to the
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
15/39
________________________________________________________________________
15
show and really didnt feel great about it at all, but you are professionally
committed to a review; youd be a fool to lie and say you loved it when
you hated it.
Lets pretend, I saw the show, the reviews got to go in 30 minutes after
curtain down to be in the mornings paper and theres four /five nightsstill to run. Lets say I didnt really love it all that much, thats not the
number one information to give the world, Ive got ways of letting that
between the lines, people whove been reading a while oh boy you
didnt have a great night did you Jennifer, but I didnt (write) that.
I dont want to lie or confuse myself totally, thats not going to help us at
all. But theres the box office, and survival and respect to pay to these
people whose work is valid and loveable by somebody else, who just
happens perhaps not to be me on that night. Im not scared to say what I
think, but not as a black and white thing.
Youre quite right (Linda) not to want dichotomies; were all on a point
somewhere along the spectrum. Yet the kind of review that you can mull
through and think about and then put a damn good argument in, you
know, Geordan Wilcoxs dad writing about Black Milk weeks, months
after weve all seen it for the last time. You know, youre going to keep
that on your book shelf, you may or may not clip reviews from the more
ephemeral papers that you saw the show or not. So whos the reviewer
actually speaking to as they write?
SF: Well I think you bring up a really interesting point about dichotomy as
well as the review as a record of an event at the same time it is a review.
So youve got that subjective voice as well. I think what a good reviewer
does do is balance the two, so that it does serve both purposes and
without getting too academic or too over the head of the audience, but
at the same time respecting any knowledge or pre-knowledge that they
may have.
Jennifer: When youre writing to the choreography, the dance performance, the
dancers, the audience who were there with you on the night - who are
maybe waiting to see a review before they will go and see. The other
readers of the paper who wont be going at all, but are very interested tosee what they missed, and the people in other towns - thank you John for
going national, and then international readership. So its a bit of juggling
on the trampoline -
John: I want to move on okay, last one.
SF: How much weight does the audience of whos reading the review bear on
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
16/39
________________________________________________________________________
16
your - like each of your reviews that you write. Like how much weight is
there on your opinion? Like this will be specific to all of you, and like
what papers you write for and whether it comes out before the show
ends or afterwards. How much does it affect your opinion of the show,
like who you are writing for?
John: I would say nothing can affect your opinion - your opinions your opinion.
SF: But it does modify the way you -
John: Its interesting, I dont feel that - I have no idea who my constituency is
out there, I havent surveyed them.
SF: So you dont know who youre writing for.
John: Im not sure that even though people may know who their advertisers
think theyre pitching too, who else picks up the publication that theydidnt subscribe to? Whether its in a dentist waiting room or circulated
around the office - when I wrote for the NBR, you know, it wasnt
necessarily business people. Its anybody working in the office that saw
the thing on circulation.
Nicholas: I disagree, because I think whenever Im writing I always inherently know
Im writing for someone in my mind. Now that person may be dead, they
may be never going to read it, but somehow, the experience of the show,
the construction of the argument is channelled towards someone.
So I have someone in mind that hopefully is usually connected withwhichever publication Im working with, be it in the Middle East or in
London or here in New Zealand.
I dont think one can force oneself to say Im just writing it, just to put it
out there and it has nothing to do with anyone. Theres usually some
sort of mind out there that Im trying to connect with and convince or
engage. Im not always completely conscious of who it is; sometimes its
only emerges later, oh yeah I wrote that for my father.
John: Francesca, have you got a sense that your Listeneraudience is different
from (DANZ Quarterly)?
Francesca: Yeah, Im quite conscious of the (Listener) audience. The demographic is
quite well known for the middle class, middle aged which theyre trying
to get younger. So its people who read; who are educated and interested
in dance and have some kind of knowledge or desire for knowledge.
I was told by the arts editor a while back that I wasnt writing for the
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
17/39
________________________________________________________________________
17
dance community and I wasnt writing for the dancers, I was writing for
the Listenerreaders and I should remember that - and I do.
When I write DANZ Quarterly, I can use quite different language; I can be
more humorous, take more liberty with language. Ive got so much more
space. Its not a conscious thing but I can see the difference in my writingand also with articles as well. Sometimes DANZ Quarterlydoesnt
necessarily want more general information about artists, they want
dance information because of the editorial quality, and its the same with
the Listenerbeing more open. So yeah, definitely the audience is in
mind. I think thats a key to all writing, to know your audience.
John: Jack, have you got -
Jack: I was just thinking that actually I write knowing that the dance
community will look at it. Im quite aware that the people who Im
writing about and the situations are mostly people in the community. Soit is really hard when you have an opinion of a show that isnt really
celebrating...
I feel personally that I always want to support dance, because if I dont
then I wont be supporting myself. So I like to uphold dance as much as I
possibly can, but within that we can all develop and refine the art form.
I also see the history of dance in New Zealand is very short, and so theres
room for expansion. Thats the perspective from which I try to write; as a
way of illuminating and ultimately trying to give the best - but if that
seems impossible then trying, as you say, to rationalise a point of view,knowing that youre going to put yourself up for people to disagree with,
and thats okay its kind of hard.
Jennifer: A little bell rang. Sitting here is my review of Swan Lake from the
Imperial Russian Theatre Ballet Company from last night in Wellington.
Its not yet published but I brought it along if you want. It rarely gets
trickier than that I have to say, because its politics and a whole bunch of
stuff. In the break you can have a read if you want, but - if I can just put
in a word for the fast turnaround general publication, as opposed to the
dance specialist publication coming four times a year or once a year orwhatever.
Its this; you put in your copy, and you hope and pray and you dont sleep
until really you know for sure, that what appears is what you submitted.
For sure, darling, you dont meet the subeditor; you dont know who the
subeditor is. You ring in after youve posted it in, you proof read it after
youve sent it and send the typos and hope that what you wrote is what
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
18/39
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
19/39
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
20/39
________________________________________________________________________
20
shitless!
Then she asked all the people on the panel that were there, and it turned
out that all the women were writing books and novels with male
protagonists with three out of the five of them writing in the first person,
because to them one of the big mysteries in life is the male psyche, andso they had the creative opportunity to put themselves in this alien space
and try and understand it.
I think critics like to go along to something that really extends their
understanding, not only of the art form, but of life itself; of the society
theyre in; of the politics, of any of that stuff that provokes them beyond
what they think they already know. This is one of the most exciting things
to experience and to convey to someone else in the way that you write
about it.
SF: Just before you move on from this question about whether you expectthe reviewer to have some expertise - well, as a reader and as a person
who has a deep experience of dance, I get really angry at critics who dare
to give an opinion that is just so ignorant.
John: Right.
SF: And critique something where they dont understand the history or the
background its come out of, because theyd gone with an expectation. I
mean I wont read them.
John: But would you expect therefore that the only people that should go tothat performance are the people with that historical knowledge?
SF: No I expect the critics to be able to interpret and to put it into context,
especially if its a cutting edge work; they need to be able to locate it.
Linda: Thats what I was saying; everyones a critic. But thats the difference
between what we do - is connecting - trying to figure out why - its the
rationale thing. Why does it connect?
SF: Im not directing this at the panel, but we do have lots of critics who do
publish and who are really ignorant, who go along with a classicalunderstanding of classical ballet and will critique post modern work.
Thats just insulting.
John: Without being excited that theyre being taken into unknown territory -
SF: Yes, because its habit, because theyve applied -
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
21/39
________________________________________________________________________
21
Nicholas: Are you critical of this because its an opinion being expressed, and it isnt
substantiated. Would you be just as critical of it if it was someone who
said okay this is my perspective of classical ballet. I didnt like this
modern work, and heres why; they gave a rationale and then they gave
illustrations from the work. So its not so much the issue of them being
ignorant, but its the fact theyre not constructing a full argument?
SF: Well I dont think they realise (inaudible)
John: Youve got that thing that what theyre writing about themselves more
than the work.
Linda: There are some 400 words in the New Zealand Herald you often cannot
substantiate an argument of the kind that you need to in order to do
justice to somebodys work.
SF: Also, would you get insulted if the review was a positive review?
SF: No its not positive or negative, its the stand point from which that critic
has come.
SF: So even if they praise the work still coming from an ignorant place -
John: That can be one of the most irritating -
SF: Im not criticising the positiveness or negativeness of it.
Nicholas: How marginal will that make either that art form or the communities who
arent associated with that level of knowledge.
John: The way you write about it its whether youre using language that
communicates to your reader.
Nicholas: Thats all fine; the issue that were talking about here is the issue of
whether the person whos ignorant of a specific art form should be
allowed to have a public voice.
John: When I was writing for the NBR, I did start to write dance reviews
because I was limited to 300 words and I had to fill a certain space. I
decided that with 300 words it was a notice and I didnt have to do too
much critiquing but I could at least write it into history. But I much prefer
to commission other dance writers to write dance reviews because they
have the conceptual understanding and the language. They can look at
something and know its apli; they can find the right word to describe
and hopefully use language in a way that someone who isnt a PHD in
dance knows what theyre talking about. But theyre using language
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
22/39
________________________________________________________________________
22
accurately and I think thats quite important. I dont see how you can do
that if you dont have some level of expertise.
Linda: I think it would be really interesting though if someone were to set up an
online site and the only people to critique were just ordinary people. I
think it would be fabulously interesting to see what people think aboutwhat we do because we know what we think about it, but a lot of other
people think loads of other ways.
SF: Auckland Theatre Company has done this already.
Linda: Sorry?
SF: Auckland Theatre Company have already done it, and theyve got very
few responses. But they still encourage you, the audience, well I dont
think thats true actually, ordinary people do go to their shows. But
people are reluctant to express that opinion in public, you know, theyllsay -
Linda: I still think it would be a fantastic thing for TEMPO to do next year.
John: Well lets change the perspective a bit because Im sure everything
everyone wants to say will get said one way or another.
The next perspective to look at it is the question of to what extent is the
dance review or reviewer responsible for providing a record of the
performance event.
This is an interesting one for me because when I was writing the history
of Downstage Theatre, in many ways the only record available of what
happened was the reviews. And, you know there is this whole thing
about oh so and sos a terrible critic because all they do is tell the story,
but if its an unpublished brand new New Zealand work, and its not
published, and they dont tell the story, or they dont give you a sense of
what it is all about let alone how they did it, then its very difficult to
write a paragraph about it in the history. So that was one particular issue.
I think my concept of writing reviews has shifted a bit from that
perspective. Jennifer, do you want to lead off on this one?
Jennifer: Well Im reminded by your history of Downstage, when I was asked to
write the history of the Royal New Zealand Ballet for 50 years, a
ridiculously short time to do so, but it seemed on balance better to do
something than nothing. It broke my heart that it was not possible to put
in two appendices, one would be the list of every dancer who had ever
been in the ballet company since 1953, and the other would be a list of
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
23/39
________________________________________________________________________
23
all the works at first production. Because thats the history and I can put
whatever spin on it -
John: And then an index of course - an index that has all the - all those people.
Jennifer: I did manage the appendix of the works but it broke my heart because Iknow what that feels like. Somebody danced in that company for 10
years or 20 and theyre nowhere in the book. Now theyre not just small
minded, theyre only looking for their name, but they want to see this is
coming through. So, you can only do what you can do and not a lot
more.
In terms of a more ephemeral view of a performance, if its ephemeral
lets hope somebody saves one copy of some review. Its not the 100%
obligation of that review to record, document - when I read a review that
lists all seven performers by name fully, if its not an exceptional thing
they did, I wouldnt be listing their names just for the sake of it. Its theirobligation to provide a printed programme with the date, the venue, etc
to go into the Turnbull or Auckland Public Library or somewhere. So
thats (the artists) the initial responsibility to document the work. But I
know often a programme or a poster says 17th of September at 7.45 pm -
what year?
I spent more time looking for the year to get that appendix ready than
the review. So, yes, you better make sure you spell peoples names right
if youre going to quote it, and get it accurate, but I cant see that in the
350 words you can waste or spend many documenting something that
really began as a novel. But we are talking a lot about here are reviews
for the record, and thats fine, but theres a lot of other ways of writing
about dance.
I suppose books would be there, but even less than books, contributions
to books and even other pieces that youre writing and that arent yet
published, but you can be exchanging them. Its not as though everything
is pinned on the reviewer, and whether by good design or bad editing
what got published - you know, should that be the last word on it?
I hear what Susan is saying, somebody does an inadequate orincompetent piece of work and you say pan that critic. And thats true,
you can, but a letter to the editor is apparently the most read thing in the
newspaper. Theyve done their polls, and crosswords come next, so eat
your heart out for the headlines.
Youre asking where a voice in response should be allowed to be heard so
that dance literature is a big beautiful thing thank God, its not as big as it
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
24/39
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
25/39
________________________________________________________________________
25
I guess, that is the historical perspective and it has changed now with the
new technology. Nevertheless, if youve got a number of people writing
you get a bigger view, you understand more of whats happening - its a
bit like with a jury, you know, I find juries fascinating. It seems everybody
lies when getting caught, and then somehow you seem to manage to be
able to find some sort of truth, whether it is the truth or not I dont know.But its the same kind of thing. If youve got a large number of records of
writing you can begin to assemble some kind of understanding and what
might have actually happened.
I was also interested in the quote in italics from question 2, which I
thought refers to the actual process of writing with
Description is often meant to convey believability to portray images,
its also designed to persuade, convince, express or arouse passions.
Descriptive words can carry overt and covert moral judgments except
that they are judgments which are conveyed through descriptions.
I find that really interesting because I spend quite a lot of time thinking
about the way I write and the fact that writing to me is an important
aspect of the words that I use; how I phrase them, the rhythm they might
have.
Those kinds of things are important to me so sometimes its a kind of
translation process Im going through of what Ive actually seen and
responded to and then trying to process the thoughts which are so much
more erudite. Then getting down to the paper where they become clay,
and trying to match them to what I might have seen, and put these other
elements in it - thats the task I set for myself anyway.
Im aware that I might see something which I may not necessarily like, or
it might offend you and then have to maybe work through it because I
think ones point of view is really subjective. Then allow those things to
challenge me, force me out of my opinions. So, I think - yeah descriptive
writing -
SF: To me just picking up on something you said, for me its the beauty of
listening when Ive watched dance theres that, coming from a dancewriting perspective, it is a conversation between you as a watcher and
the performers too. So when youre writing about it, youve received all
this information kinesthetic and visual information. So the way that you
write that changes with everything you write about. You could choose to
make it really boom chic, you know, if you want to do that, or if its an
amazing performance thats affected every part of you, your language
will change and thats the beauty about being a dance writer. Youve got
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
26/39
________________________________________________________________________
26
so much scope to express different things.
Linda: I so agree with - whats your name?
SF: Sarah
Linda: I so agree with Sarah. When Im writing often what I find is the poetics of
the words are quite resonant with the movement that Ive seen. Theres
some kind of beautiful interplay between the language Im choosing and
what Ive seen.
Sometimes thats really easy and it just flows and then other times its
actually quite... I mean, I had to for my sins review, the Hip Hop
Showcase, this morning actually, and I am not, as you can probably see, a
hippity hoppity kind of girl. Although students do say that I taught them
everything they know, Im sure thats not true. I found writing about hip
hop quite difficult because I cant do it - I cant feel that thing, so, I foundit quite difficult to find the words.
So I think youre right, in that for me theres a sort of poetic interplay I
really enjoy when it starts to happen, and that I can feel the dance
happening and the words floating around off the page - its quite an
imaginative experience.
John: Yeah I think dance writing and music too is quite different from being a
theatre critic where Im finding words for something that is a relatively
verbal form and so there are already words being exchanged. I am
absolutely astonished at the capacity of dance critics to find words for anon-verbal art form. Some of the most poetic writing on Theatreview is
of dance reviews and I have to say, a lot of it is quite evocative, even
though you might not be quite clear whats being said youre getting, at
an intuitive level, some sense of an experience, because of the words
that are being used.
I find that a really interesting way of doing it. I certainly wouldnt say its
the only way to do it and I wouldnt disparage anyone who is very plainly
descriptive, but to read a poetic response alongside a very objectively
descriptive one of the same thing is to get a real picture of what may
have happened. Obviously the poetic ones are likely to be a lot more
subjective, and I should imagine - which is another topic were going into
- I should imagine the people whove done the work reading that
response are going to have quite a different response to someone whos -
Linda: Can I just contextualize the quote that Francesca was reading from as
well, because you might be interested to know that in fact that quotation
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
27/39
________________________________________________________________________
27
was from the Basics of Qualitative Research by Corbin and Strauss, which
has got absolutely diddly squat anything to do with dance. I just thought
you might quite like to know that because the academic arena, it also has
some significance to what were talking about.
Jennifer: Poetic things are fine, but Im not fond of reading a precious two lines ortwo paragraphs in which someones saying dance is so rah rah that you
cant say it in words, and people are driven I dont know whether
Isadora Duncan or Martha Graham said it and Im not sure if they both
said it or neither said it. But if I could say it I wouldnt have to dance it,
or something along those lines, yeah and Martha Graham, youll find
books - no youll find books that say she did but whether she did or not is
another question. But soon enough where of we cannot speak, we better
soon stop trying, yes A J Eyre I believe, philosopher and so on, because
its true its a non-verbal art, but writing its a thing of words and youre
talking about emotional response and other things. So when you read a
book its verbal, thats true, but from your emotional response to it, you
may then review it in the way that you do.
Theres view, you know, view and review. Thats all were doing is sort of
going back over the view of it and by the time youve come to write
about it, it is a verbal matter; now to find some words to try and describe
it. Im always sorry to see the space wasted when a person is having a
hard time (with their response to a review), and they have to write, or
they talk about others who write, and demand how dare they, because
its non-verbal and really it should be allowed to stay in the turning
pirouette world or whatever. I understand its hard to find, but all goodthings are hard to find.
John: Yes well if you go to an art gallery and see what artists try and say about
their work sometimes, its absolutely impenetrable.
Jennifer: I wish theyd go to a dance more often.
SF: Well thats what we read about institutions like The University of
Auckland and probably AUT as well other places that are educating dance
practitioners, teachers, writers, whoever that come through the
programmes to be, for want of a better word, balanced writers,reviewers of these ephemeral art forms. In a way well thats good.
Jennifer: Yes youve got to start somewhere. Heres something you could all try if
you want to, its called Cake Walk, we did it in Wellington. Cake Walk is,
you know, that marvellous dance, big dress ups and a prize of a cake for
the best one, the wearable art type of stuff.
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
28/39
________________________________________________________________________
28
Anyway I sent an article round the week before, people read it and we
went for coffee we called it Cake Walk. Theyd discuss it if they wanted
to, or practice reviewing something. It was for people who wanted to
write about dance but are a little bit nervous to start. Its nice to try,
practice, and see how you go. So (one time) I said right lets have a few
rules which is, next time we meet we will have seen Black Milk, so youcan all write 300 words on it and bring it along. There were five of us
around the table in the caf, and if we could just have passed them round
that would have been fine, except - clunk, the day we met, somebody
said it was so amazing I had to write 1100 words, here they are.
Footnote - not fair, we could all write 1100 words, its a different game
/the marksman who said sorry to write you such a long letter, I didnt
have time to write you a short one.
Its not just a joke, its absolutely true, bring it down, bring it down -
youre distilling all the time, as with the choreography as well. If you
dance everything you ever thought of moving its going to be a hell of a -
So that is - I was sad because we were getting a nice momentum, and we
did meet about four or five times and you wouldnt do it all your life
probably. Its like a book circle, except targeted to dance. But my heart
sank because how am I going to say to this woman, if you put in 1100
words to a publication thats asked you for 300 words, ask Francesca
whats going to happen to it, ask Theatreview.
John: You havent responded to this one yet Nick?
Nicholas: Thanks for the chance, so yeah I think we do I dont like the worddocument because theres many other forms and ways with which one
documents the dance process, it isnt the 19th century, so in terms of
constructing histories this isnt the only way in which future historians
can gather that information. However, there is a responsibility for
anyone whos presenting a critique to be able to allow the audience - the
readership to go on that journey with them so when it does kind of
suggest before, when its more prosaic or poetic, what I read those kind
of reviews or criticisms, I think oh well it must be nice for you to be there.
But, you know, what am I doing with this piece of paper? Theres a
crucial role of having some good sense as well. You dont have to go into
great detail and document every little point, which will allow thechronology of the events to emerge to suggest what happened, what led
to the next thing happening. So that the reader as theyre gaining your
critique and your argument of it, theyre also gaining a sense of what
were the events that occurred in that moment.
Francesca: Im always aware of trying to because (inaudible) 400 word limit which is,
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
29/39
________________________________________________________________________
29
you know, very difficult but I try and map out a variety of things and I
really try very hard to describe the movement, I think thats really
important. So for me, its not just what happened or anything, but I
actually try to convey at least a segment of how the dance - which has
some kind of movement or some kind of action. But it really is only a
window because you cant really convey much in 400 words - but for me,the objective is for the reader to understand a performance.
Linda: I want to say I wasnt just waxing lyrical in talking about the interplay of
choices of vocabulary. In fact descriptive writing can be quite covert; it
can have quite a lot of judgments in there if you read it carefully.
John: Yes, absolutely.
Linda: You can have enthusiastic bits where you can see that the reviewer is
really having some enjoyment in watching a particular part of a piece. At
the same time, if you then read some other parts of the review, Imtalking about my review, if you ever read any of them I would suggest
you read between the lines carefully, is that there are some quite covert
descriptions which are kind of like, oh well, was this really up to where it
could have been? Was it really as exciting or interesting or involving as it
could have been? Im not too keen on reviews that just describe without
some kind of greater intrigue.
John: One of the best examples of concise writing was a review of King Lear
and the critic simply wrote he played the king as if in fear that someone
was about to play the ace.
Linda: And that was a review?
John: Yeah
Linda: Thats exactly right; thats quite poetic but very telling.
John: Yes! Sorry, yes?
Raewyn: Its interesting that if you change your mind about the way you think
about dance, if you dont think of it as ephemeral or non-verbal, its a
highly material practice, its fully embodied, it happens in time and space.It leaves traces, behind which it has particular social significance and it
always has text and context and subtext. And those are the things that
some of us try to write about at least, rather than thinking of it as a
record or merely an opinion that we substantiate as fact. And that makes
a different idea about what the record of dance is, its an experience that
people have that affects memory and that may stay with you your whole
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
30/39
________________________________________________________________________
30
life, and Im sure all of us have, you know, moments that are still playing
behind our eyes.
John: Yes.
Linda: I agree with Raewyn, I mean the non-verbal thing is for me aquestionable way of describing dance. I know verbal language is quite
different, but the two I think just run along parallel with each other, and
sometimes they do this and sometimes they do that.
Jennifer: Is there a dance youve never seen that you wished you could, or had? Is
there a dance, a choreography like that - Raewyn?
Raewyn: That I wish Id seen?
Jennifer: That you knew existed once, was done somewhere and you didnt see it
because you werent there, maybe you werent born yet. And youd loveto see it, so you hunt down everything thats been written about it and
that will only take you so far - is there such a choreography in your life?
Raewyn: One of the Judson scripts which is called TheStar Map, I would have
loved to have seen that.
Jennifer: Yes so the best you can do is find who saw it and wrote something about
it, is it?
Raewyn: I would just read the script, I havent even read commentary on the
experience of seeing it - but I can imagine what it must have been like.But, I can only check.
John: And then you get things like Steel Ballerina which is a new work based on
another work that happened in the past. And it still makes you want to
see it, because she doesnt recreate Fontaine on the stage -
Raewyn: Well you cant, can you.
John: But no, then you get a whole sense of something having happened that
you werent there for, through another dance group.
Francesca: In terms of writing for theatre, if I go and see a play for example - you
have a whole set of ideas which are presented to you by the playwright,
and the performance of the actors and the general production. You can
then start to format a judgment on a lot of known information that
youve received. Therefore you are coming (to the show /to the writing
of a review) from a point of view of ideas already being formed inside
your head.
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
31/39
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
32/39
________________________________________________________________________
32
laptop out and we were reviewing live and direct for Open Floor(ph), and
we had an absolute blast didnt we? Well I did. That was completely, I
mean I didnt see it coming. And we were just really of the moment and
writing free flow and writing down the fact that Raewyn rolled her eyes
at one point, and all these kinds of things. It hasnt gone on line
anywhere because it doesnt make any sense but the point was that not the thing was, the review was very much what we saw. It was a real lived
experience of the wildness that was going on onstage, so it was actually
really groovy.
John: Look weve only got about 25 minutes left or probably less because
theres got to be a change around in the room before a 4 oclock thing, in
this room is it? Yeah. But the other perspective we wanted to look at all
this from was the responsibility of the review or reviewer to the dance
community as opposed to the general reader. So Francesca do you want
to?
Francesca: Take this one?
John: Yeah
Francesca: Its interesting; again I go back to my thesis because that was the reason I
got really involved into writing again, looking at the way that dance critics
saw ballet in the 1940s and 1950s, they were highly critical of New
Zealand dancers because they all - they carried with them this sort of
cultural cringe. So whatever they saw was never going to measure up
anyway, but if they did or not is beside the point, because they came with
that perspective. And I didnt actually think, in many ways, that the
reviewer did serve the dance industry because I think it left most dancers
with because most of them ended up with, the standards couldve
been higher, which no doubt they couldve been, but as against whom
and what are you measuring, and all those kinds of imponderables.
So I think there is a responsibility to try within the realms of what you can
possibly do in New Zealand in particular, to sort of unpack a lot of
prejudices and those kinds of things and see New Zealand for what it is.
To portray it as honestly as you possibly can and not sort of say, well, oh
God, Ive just returned from wherever, and our dancers are so outdatedor whatever. So in terms of what New Zealand is, I was also talking to
Raewyn Hill the other day and she said that the people in Europe
absolutely love New Zealand dancers, they just cant get enough of them
and they want more and more of them. And I thought it was really valid -
that New Zealand has so many talents that they cancel each other out,
that we dont really see them.
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
33/39
________________________________________________________________________
33
So all of these ways of viewing ourselves, in terms of the work of critics,
critics need to be informed of all these opinions so that we serve the
dance industry as honestly as we can.
John: Jack you touched on the issue of knowing people that youre writing
about and this is something that amazes European critics, that we can beseen in the bar, talking to and drinking with the practitioners that were
writing about. In fact Michael Billington was envious of us in that regard
and hes actually quite good mates with Harold Pinter now and wrote his
biography.
But in terms of - can I ask you this question, because youve already said
something about this, and I suppose it comes down to respect. What is
the difference between say, if youre a choreographer or a director in the
room and someones done a run through performance and youre giving
them feedback, and the person whos dancing before you is a great friend
of yours - what is the greater act of friendship; to give them really honestfeedback so that the next time they do it a bit better, or to say that was
lovely darling? Is there any difference to the role of a critic when it
comes to being ruthless?
Jack: Well, I think the people that have a vested interest in trying to be useful,
you know, like how can I be useful through offering what I see to what
youre doing and questioning them as to whether thats where they want
it to be. Or just to draw out some of the threads from their ideas. I think
its important to
John: So engaging them in conversation on different things -
Jack: I was thinking that, in terms of being within the community, there are
different levels of people within the dance community. There are people
who are, say Black Grace for example, who are funded annually and the
public know that. Then there are people who if I say, oh Im going to see
this show, and tell my flat mates, they wont have heard anything about
that person.
For me, theres a responsibility of going okay, so someone like
Maria Dubrowska for example, I think is an amazing choreographer, andshes just beginning to establish herself and get the level of funding
required to put her ideas out there and have them work-shopped and
seen to the same level as other choreographers. Its kind of a
generational thing and so my perspective is informed by where they are
in their development and the continuum of the dance. I try to support
the upward progression of all practitioners.
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
34/39
________________________________________________________________________
34
John: Youve touched on something there that reminds me of when I went to
one of these arts presentation things. Festival directors from Australasia
were gathered and people had 20 minutes to present their idea, often a
production, to try and get it brought into a festival somewhere. I was
absolutely amazed; gob smacked, at how many people would quote a
review - my review of their work - as part of the evidence for why theyshould get backing. I sort of was going oh no I dont want to know, I
dont want to think about this when Im writing my review, I dont want
to think that this is going to be used when theyre applying for funding.
And yet this is the way our work gets used, quite validly. What about you
Jen? I mean, you know John Trimmer pretty well, what are you going to
do if you go along and see him do something that you think is absolutely
rubbish?
Jennifer: Id be surprised first of all, but then if he mucks up Ill say he mucked up
or I wont mention him at all which is the same as saying you mucked up.
But, you know, I remember your comments about hip hop - you didnt
literally say, Im out of my depth here, but I think you implied that youre
not quite sure where to get in, how to get in. This is New Zealand, this is
a Pacific island and we are sometimes in front of a performance of dance
by the Tokelau community lets say, read any others that you may have
been at or represented R&D representative of and so on.
Now there is something New Zealand (art /artists?) can have, and thats
to uncover what is to be a New Zealander and its something New
Zealand can perhaps offer the world, why not, because certain American
dance writers have said to me oh how do you do that multiculturalthing, that ethnic thing? And I say well I just never use the word ethnic.
Everything is ethnic, therefore nothings ethnic, so just drop it and what it
is, is what is its.
But lets say if you were going to be seeing some Tokelau dance
performance is there something to read? No actually - well one booklet,
but I dont think thats the place to start. So do you just take it as your
instincts on the day did or what? Theres no point taking along the
references that are relevant for other things, the ballet of the Deep Blue
Sea. For a Tokelau dance you would describe the event and that there
were 5,000 people gathered for the Easter tournament and there wouldbe other things happening in those five days too, and then youll be
getting down to the Fatele which is haiku like in its text, very short and
repeated over and over, but never repeated. Bit faster, bit faster, bit
faster until they couldnt go any faster and its over the top and out and
gone.
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
35/39
________________________________________________________________________
35
So if you just described what you saw and you knew nothing, not even
what type of dance it was then you probably shouldnt offer to review it,
as its not going to advance anybodys life experience. But there are
ways, you can - if you have friends in that community, you can go to their
rehearsals, watch that Fatele being choreographed which is to say
composed and the words written up on a huge piece of newsprint peggedto the wall of their hall. You can track it through to an exquisite thing
that will happen, but blink and you might miss it.
So, you cant do a PHD in Tokelau dancing and say right now Im ready to
review it. They wouldnt thank you and thered be no such reality. But I
think we are lucky that we have a lot of dance relatively speaking and a
lot of voices, relatively speaking. We do have a unique opportunity to
see what dance is in its cultural context and how that works, because
theres not a lot left in the world, but New Zealand has a lot of it.
SF: Being a small community theres only a few of us and because we take onso many different hats when we do this freelancing thing, that we do,
that to have that place of being able to talk about each others work is a
real great privilege, because, like Jack was saying, we can uphold - even
though you can inform critical perspective and show the way where it
perhaps couldve been different or whatever, the motivation is for it to
go like this - which is awesome.
John: So one of the responsibilities perhaps is that, if you are not of the culture
that is being expressed, if there are conventions in traditional dance in
this culture that those in the culture understand, you know, like withKapa Haka there are all sorts of things in the action that carry meaning,
that a Pakeha might not know if they havent been told about them ...
Is it valid for a critic writing about that to simply say well this is what it
meant to me coming from this perspective; is that a contribution back to
them? Or then theres the other thing like Vivek with his Indian
performances where he teaches the audience about the form in the
process of doing it. He assumes that his audience is culturally outside his
experience so he makes it his business to educate them. Ive only ever
received hugely enthusiastic reviews of what hes done.
Jennifer: Yes but you know what he does, its very interesting for us to think what
does Kanan do? They both tour a little bit and they both do very
different things with Indian traditional dance as a starting point. Now
thats an interesting thing for us to know, because you do run out of
superlatives saying how fabulous the performance was.
SF: And I think, John that is where the difference is, because you can trace it
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
36/39
________________________________________________________________________
36
back to the history. Colonisation comes into it because the British have
influenced all the colonies. All the people in these fields will have to start
thinking and taking that into their different professions - and barristers
and that I come from that field as well from the family and I remember
back when (inaudible) and the law being practiced by the British citizen
and the tradition was that if you were sitting like that at the end of thecase barristers would not socialise with the judges. There was this
hierarchy between the High Court and the District Court and those (in the
District Court) could not mix with those (from the High Court), or they
were not to be seen by the public just having a good conversation and
talking about general things.
That is what was happening in most of the countries and which followed
in all of the professions. As an audience this is what our relationship is,
but that should not stop us from talking about different things outside
the room. We do not properly talk about the subject because we feel we
will reveal but that should not stop either you or I from discussing
dance. I think that is where politics started. So this is what happens.
Theres no need for it. So we need to educate people that way.
John: Francesca did you have a?
Francesca: I think -
Nicholas: I had a question regarding the extent to which the critic should be
responding to the dance community.
My belief is that the notion of dance community is bunk and that its notactually that useful a concept for us to be pursuing and if anything, the
role of the dance critic is to try to dissemble the notion of a dance
community and serve to integrate dancers and dance practices with the
wider population that it is serving, rather than fostering the support of
some separate bubble thats distinct and removed from the rest of the
world. Say, well no, there is no dance community, is it something we can
strike off and pat ourselves on the back and give ourselves a little bit of
support.
Its the critics function to try to break that down and integrate the ideasthat are going on between individual dancers or dance groups, with
people in the wider community - so that it doesnt somehow foster a
sense of oh weve got to protect them.
SF: Yeah, but within those smaller communities that go out bigger, people
like us who are in the dance community that practice were really
challenged to be able to communicate that to a wide audience and within
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
37/39
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
38/39
________________________________________________________________________
38
occasionally I get a whole flood of you know - and then I think oh God,
but anyway Im actually outside of the dance industry in terms of my
audience and Im aware that Ive got people down in Invercargill or
Westport or wherever who will never see the dance performance, but
nevertheless they can read the review and maybe just enjoy reading it
and learning a bit about it. You dont always have to be there toexperience something. I think within that context I try and be as open as
possible to serving the dance industry well so that Im not shooting it in
the foot or being quite subjective in any way. So thats my obligation.
The other thing were talking about what the ballet company - you know,
Ive actually found my writing quoted in books and stuff like that and, you
know, various things and I try to not actually write adjectives, you know, I
really work hard on avoiding adjectives, I try and use adverbs and I try
and bed my phrasing in a way that it cannot be taken out of context
when quoted, so thats a - because I actually got - you know - yeah, and
superlatives. So its quite satisfying that people dont use me in quotes
nearly as much they used to.
John: Weve got to wind up unfortunately. So I just wanted to finish by quoting
Diana Rigg who edited a collection of reviews that uses in its title, a quote
from George Bernard Shaw who said that a critic left no turn unstoned.
Ill paraphrase it a bit so its inclusive of dance;
There are so many wonderful qualities to be found in
performance and courage predominates every time an entrance is
made, every time an actor, actress or dancer undertakes thedaring or delicate task of making an audience believe, or engaging
an audience. Another great quality is generosity of spirit.
So what Ive said to every critic that comes on board Theatreview
(although I might not have done it more recently), and what I keep
coming back to for myself, is that a good critic has the qualities of
passion, generosity of spirit and courage - and thats courage to be
honest.
So; thank you very much panelists and Linda, thank you very much
indeed.
Linda: Thank you John and thank you panelists. That was really fascinating and,
as Jack just said to me, but were only just getting started.
This always happens; I know these events. This event today has a legacy;
there have been other events in the past, around about 2000, 2002 I
remember working on a couple of events with Susan Jordan. We
-
8/9/2019 For the Record Dance Review Panel Transcript
39/39
39
facilitated two events called Critical Mass as part of the dance festival
and I know there have been other events which Raewyn Whyte and other
people have been to. I hope its not the last of these events; I do think
you have a lot to share.
I think its absolutely fascinating, and weve had some fabulouscontributions from the panel which Im sure youll be thinking about for
several days to come.
John: