TIPS:

Offhand, when I started with raising goats, I honestly believed that I could "buy my way" into a great herdI thought that starting off with imported Aussie goats was the way to go

I now realize that for my purposes, this is not the best way to do it

If the objective is to upgrade the local goats and increase their size and yield,it is better to start with F1 and F2 bucks

I also understand now that I can also not buy experience ;-)My farmhands really have to learn the tricks of the trade and learn the right way to raise goats

My first bout with orf and pink eye was very challengingAnd this was because I have poor farm practicesThese were local goats I bought from a local livestock market and I lost 1 or 2 goats that way

That is why I would recommend that starting goat-raisers start off with F1s and F2s firstI think this will be more rewarding for them in the long run

Hope that helps

FGASPAPI Members

Goat and Sheep Producers of Tarlac

Jeff Lim 0918 9080488

jsjfarm@yahoo. com

Region 4 Small Ruminants Raisers Association

Elmer Rivera 0917 5363454 \

farmerelmer@ yahoo.com

Pangasinan Goat and Sheep Raisers Association

Ed Paningbatan 0929 7805991

edpapa357@yahoo. com

hi al. i can understand how you feel. i was there. health care for the young goats is a long and tedious exercise. let me share with you my experiences. let us make this our first installment because a lot of things will be discussed.

this first installment will be all about pre-birth and after birth.

you have to understand that the health care program for your goat kids does not only start after birth. it should actually start before the breeding of the does. before you attempt to breed your does, they must have been dewormed and in top health state. otherwise, they will give birth to weak kids and they too will suffer during the milking period because their bodies would not have sufficient nutrients to support the milk requirements of their babies. nangyari na rin sa akin yan. nakita ko lang na naglandi ang kambing ko, pinakastahan ko na agad. in the end, you lose a lot because of your impatience. in deworming, you could use albendazole or ivermectin injectable. kung walang wala at nasa bukid ka, puedeng purgahin ang kambing ng bunga (betel nut). use the young nut and divide one nut into two parts and feed one part to each goat. hwag damihan at magtatae ng dugo ang kambing mo. during the pregnancy, the does should be fed well. since you are using forage, feed them ad libitum. wala pa akong nakitang kambing na namatay dahil sa sobrang kain ng damo. their natural instincts will tell them when to stop eating. do not ever believe those who say that the pregnant does should not be fed a lot because they will have huge babies and have problems in delivering these babies. kung payat ang nanay, madali nga ang paglabas ng anak pero madali ding mamatay kasi payat din. during birthing, the does should be helped and assisted. the umbilical cord must be cut and tied with a thread right after birth. then you dab the end of the umbilical cord with cotton soaked in betadine or any disinfectant to

prevent tetanus. to prevent juvenile paralysis and other complications, our practice is to give the newborn goat kids a light dose of tylocin antibiotics. the mother goat must also be attended to with the caretaker making sure that the placenta is ejected and the blood that stuck in the tail hair is washed off to prevent injection. it is advisable that the dam is given a shot of oxytocin to make sure that she is cleansed after birth. right after birth, the caretaker must make sure that the newborn kid gets to suck the dam's udder for the colostrum. there are first-time mothers who will not allow their young ones to suck their udder. kailangang hawakan o talian and the kid must be guided to the udder. also, there are mother goats who are either short thus their udders are so close to the floor that the newborn kids could not find the teats or very tall that the kid cannot reach the teats. kailangan matiyaga ang caretaker. kung hindi, magugulat ka na lang kung bakit nangamatay ang anak ng kambing mo. let us make this lesson No. 1. tomorrow, we will discuss the common causes of death among newborn kids up until they are about 2 to 3 months old. (by the way, i know that many would raise their eyebrows and ask how i, a former governor, could know all of these things. well, i may have been a journalist and a politician but i was, am and will always be a farmer. i breed my goats and my gamefowls and nobody designs my breeding program except me.)

--- In goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, Zunivla Farm <zunivlafarm@ ...> wrote:>> Sir and big brothers, ano ho ba ang pinaka praktikal at basic care ng mga kaanak > na kambing. Karamihan sa aming small goat raisers ay namamatayan ng kambing on > the first month pagka panganak considering most of us ay upgraded lang ( native > cross to any of anglo/boer/saanen buck). Like sa farm ko this month, i got 18 > (14 females/4males) newly born kids ( native cross to saanen buck ) and i lost 4 > as of this day. Hindi ma explain ng caretaker bakit namamatay, healthy ang does > during pregnancy naman at may sariling housing, although hinahayaan namin mag > range ang ina 3 days after makapanganak para mas makain ng tama. Naiiwan ang mga

> anak sa housing and bumabalik ang ina para makadede ang kids. We dont give > concentrate feeds, kumpay lang ng napier, indigofera, ipil and kakawate. Puwede > bang SOP na mag inject/oral na kami ng vitamins after birth sa ( 2.5 to 3.5 > kgs ave wt )kids para sure na healthy. Ilang days after kidding na puwede na > injectionan. What kind of vitamin ( ADE? / iron ) and dosage. Injection o oral. > May iba bang alternative and practikal (cost effective) na pwede ipainom para > sure healthy. Ano ba ang alternate commercial milk ang puwede ipainom. Since > remote ang town and barangay location ng farm, bearbrand powder milk pinaiinom > sa medyo mahina kids. Is it advisable? Sa sipon and diarrhea, ano ang pinaka > mabisa. Pwede na ba i deworm after birth. Praktikal tips please... thanks and > happy newyear to all.. Al of Bataan

hi arvin, i would like to help you with your problems of dying goat kids but i > need a clearer picture. are the kids in the range with their dams? or are they > in a goat house? please ask your caretaker too to check whether the dams have > sufficient milk in their udders. and whether the goat kids get to suck milk from > their dams. how old are they when they start manifesting these health problems? > do you have neighbors who also raise goats? are their goats suffering from the > same problem? i ask this because if all the goats in your community suffer from > the same problem, then it could be the environment and the climatic conditions. > however, if the problem is confined to your farm alone, then the cold

climate > could not be the culprit. happy new year.

The Madness of "Bo-Ang"

In the milk trials that we do at Alaminos Goat Farm anything that have Boerblood would be in most cases a poor milker. Based on our experience we avoidadding to the milking line anything that have Boer blood.Experts would tell youBoer's produce less milk because they were meant to produce meat not milk.

But in terms of weight gain they would be outstanding. They would outperform apure bred boer in terms of weight gain in reaching market weight. Because ofheterosis they are more adaptable and disease resistant under the tropicalcondition than a purebred.

Genetic would be important in dairying but at the end of the day how we convertthe potential into performance is a key factor. This is where nutrition would bekey factor in a successful dairy operation in tropical Philippines. Under thetropical condition of the Philippines up to this day I havn't encountered a farmthat has been successful doing a 305 days lactation period using an AngloNubian.

It is a challenge for us at AGF to succesfully breed and produced a Mitra Linethat can do a 305 days lactation period with at least 2 liters of milk per day.We have asked for Tito Manny Pinol help and he have shared with us his fine lineof Anglo Nubians. He have chosen for us BraveHeart Hercules and Sweet Alex forour Mitra Line breeding project.

Adaptability to the tropical environment is one factor of failure of a temperatedairy breed. Coming from a temperate country, humidity is the first stressfactor. The first sign of problem to adaptabilty is colds and cough that keepson coming back.

I will join the discussion but not about disease problem which I will leave tothe experts and the vets to answer. Lets keep on dairying and be profitable.

--- In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, "marvex" <marvex@...> wrote:

AMEN...because milkiness is contrary to meatiness. 11 an all

In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, "Immanuel Pinol" <immanuelfp@> wrote:

I have four breeds of goats in the braveheart farms: boers, anglo nubians, la manchas, and spanish. except for the spanish breed which i acquired along with a herd ofboer/spanish doelings from texas, i breed these lines distinctly and very seldomdo i cross them. in the future, i may breed back a 1/2 boer 1/2 spanish buckling to the few heads of pure spanish does that i have just to discover what this breed canoffer me. i use fullblood boer bucks to breed to my fullblood boer does, the 1/2 boer1/2 spanish does and the pure spanish does. the purpose is to produce a meatgoat line. i breed my anglo nubians crossing the different bloodlines that i have: thespotted lines from pam green of oklahoma and teresa wade, the kastdemur's lineof karen senn, the lakeshore farms line of megan tredway-carter and the elkhorn ranch line of dr. jeanne koploy, dvm. i cross my kastdemur's and elkhorn la manchas with the few heads i acquired from aaron carter of heart mt. carter. on a limited degree, i cross my la mancha bucks with mt. carmel anglo Nubian does. both are dairy breeds. i do this because, while the anglo nubians produce the highest quantity of milk, i believe the la manchas have the best-tasting milk coming from a live animal. my theory is simple. if you want to upgrade, it should be meat goat line crossed to another meat goat line or dairy goat line crossed to another dairy goat line. i have been asked many times in the past what i thought of the cross-breeding of boers to anglo nubians, the offsprings of which have been called "Bo-Angs." my answer has always been, it is what it's name suggests: Bo-Ang, as in "Crazy." (oh, to the non-pilipino speaking members, the word buang means crazy.) i have always told people that boer meat is the best goat meat there is in the world. a roasted boer could be mistaken for a roasted calf in taste. on the other hand, i have never liked the anglo nubian meat. it smells, it has long muscle strands and its kind of wet. so, tell me, why would i cross a superior goat meat line (boer) to an inferior goat meat line (anglo nubian)? inversely, why would i cross my prolific milking line (anglo nubian) to a line the produces milk barely enough for the survival of its kids (boer)? in crossing the boer with the anglo nubian, you produce a hybrid which produces less milk than the pure anglo nubian and meat that is no match in quality to that of the pure boer. so, what's the point? cross-breeding means upgrading not downgrading

Breeding the Doe hi nazr,

goat doelings could be bred as early as five to six months old. but i don't do it because their bodies would not be ready for pregnancy and birthing. for my dairy goat doelings, anglo nubians and la manchas, i breed them when they are about 8 to 10 months old. for the boers, i wait until they have gained enough body weight and until they are about one year old.

dairy goats mature earlier than the boers. anglo nubian and la mancha bucklings start to show interest in girls when they are about 6 to 7 months old. boer bucklings would not be keen on girls until after they are about 10 months to 1 year old. to prevent early

pregnancies on the doelings, it is advisable that if you have pens, they should be segregated from the bucklings until they are ready for mating.

as i have mentioned in earlier posts, do not attempt to mate the doelings or even the does until they are prepared and ready, which means that they should have been dewormed, injected with vitamin supplements and healthy for the pregnancy.

how do we breed the doelings? well, there's the natural way and there's artificial insemination, and lately embryo transfer. me? i still rely on the natural method. somehow, i have this feeling that not all of the necessary ingredients would be present in bringing about a pregnancy through artificial insemination. nothing and no onecould beat mother nature.

when former agriculture secretary ding panganiban visited braveheart farms a few years ago, he was so impressed by the project that he suggested i use artificial insemination to fasttrack the production of breeding materials. to that, i responded: "ding, alam mo ba na kung magtalik ang kambing, mabilis at mala-segundo lang? yon ba namang maiksing kaligayahan ng kambing, pakialaman pa natin?" (do you know that when goats mate, it's very quick, just seconds? do we have to deprive the goats of seconds ofhappiness?)

secretary panganiban roared with laughter.

if the does ready for mating are placed in a pen with the breeding buck, there is no need for your caretaker to be on watch for the estrous of the doe. but if the doe is segregated from the buck, the caretaker should be on watch for the tell-tale signs that the doe is in heat. there will be the swelling of the vulva, there would be a mucos-like discharge from the vulva which would wet the tail hair, the doe would tag her tail and shewould be restless. if the caretaker would not notice this after three days, it will takeanother 20 to 22 days before the doe will go into heat again. however, if she is mated at the right time and does not go into the heat again after 20 days, your doe is pregnant.

happy three kings!

manny pinol

http://roosterraiser.multiply.com <http://roosterraiser.multiply.com>

www.braveheartfarms.com <http://www.braveheartfarms.com>

--- In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, "nazrmapya" <nazrmapya@...> wrote:good day sir manny.pano ko po maipapaliwanag na madaling intindihin ng caretaker ng kambing ko na puede nang pakastahan ang does? salamat po gov. manny

nazr--- In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, "Immanuel Pinol" immanuelfp@wrote:hi arvin,i'm happy to be of help. mahirap din ang ginagawa mo. tawag ko dyan "long distance lovebaffair with the goats." he he he! sige lang. matututo ka rin. happy new year to you and to all goatraisers.

manny pinolhttp://www.braveheartfarms.comhttp://roosterraiser.multiply.com--- In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, Arvin Dumendeng<arvin.dumendeng@> wrote:Your advise is so much appreciated Gov Manny. The hindrace right now is I am living outside the country, go home once a year and looking after the farm remotely. My mother is managing right now who does nothave any experience in goat raising but just relying on my advises and my caretaker's action. I do not have any experience too in this venture but i do lot of reading in the net and take guidance from this yahoo group. It is quite difficult but i am very keen that this endeavor will be successful sooner with the assistance of the big brothers like you. I hope someday, I can repay you by sharing my thoughts andexperiences to the newbies in goat raising industry.Go Go Go Goatraisers! Happy new year and God Bless Us all!Arvin--- On Fri, 12/31/10, Immanuel Pinol <immanuelfp@> wrote:From: Immanuel Pinol <immanuelfp@>Subject: [goatraisers] Re: high mortality on goat kids: Lessonsfrom Braveheart Farms (3)To: goatraisers@yahoogroups.comDate: Friday, 31 December, 2010, 3:21 AM

hi everybody. before the year ends, let me finish my short treatise on the causes of high mortality on goat kids and my farm management practices in the braveheart farms in kidapawan city, north cotabato. bloat and scouring (pagtatae) are two of the most vicious killers of goat kids. bloat is especially problematic because to the uninitiated or those new to goatraising, it would be very hard to determine why the goat kid would just suddenly drop his head, refuse to eat and become weak. in less than a day, he would be dead. problems with scouring and bloat usually starts with the kids begin to share with their mother's feeds or forage. al of zunivla farm related a few days ago his problem with scouring on goat kids and said that he allows the mother goats to graze and then return to the pen to allow the kids to suckle her milk. i think that is what caused the bloat and the scouring because in the process of roaming in the open, the mother goat's udder may have touched dirty surface or even grass. ang problema dyan, hindi naman marunong maghugas ng suso ang nanay na kambing bago magpadede sa anak. these

are the little things that we must be wary of.on scouring, my friend dr. fred homeyer of antelope creek ranch of texas, who joined us in the philgoat conference of 2008, has this advise: "I initially give the goat 5 cc of probiosis (there's a local company that sells this, bio organics and you can contact mr. willy de leon 09177250558)if it is an adult goat and 1 cc of spectam (spectinomycin) for young kids. Watch your kids closely as ecoli can kill a kid very quickly. if the color of the scours is green, it may be caused by overeating of new feed or feed that is too high in protein. In the case of kid goats that are still nursing, i would suspect eColi and give them spectam immediately. there are products such as baytril that your vet may prescribe for extreme cases of scours. if the scours look bloody, either red or perhaps dark like dried blood, i would suspect coccidiosis and would contact my vet immediately. products such as corid may be helpful in dealing with coccidiosis. I isolate any goat with coccidiosis from the rest of the herd to prevent its spread." in the braveheart farms, my cousin and farm manager, neri sodusta, relies on the injectable tylocin 200 in dealing with scours. for maturegoats, he gives 3ml injection and 1ml for the kids. the scouring stops in 24 hours. bloat is a silent killer that has wasted many of my prized imported breeding materials. in fact, my first sad experience with bloat came as early as 2003 when a huge boer buck i acquired from tom sevigny of 70 boers of california, 70 tango, suffered from bloat.my vet at that time, who just like me was new in goat raising, remembered what he learned in the veterinary school and proceeded to pierce tango's bloated stomach with a needle, as if he was deflating an over-inflated tire. the following day we had two big banyeras (plastic containers) of red meat of boer courtesy of tango. through the years of painful and expensive experiments, i found out that the solution to bloat is simple. it is just your ordinary cooking oil. no, we are not going to cook the goat, dummy! The moment you see the goat drop his or her head, immediately thump the stomach. if it sounds like a hollow drum, bingo, that's bloat. for young kids, administer orally using a syringe (without the needle, of course) 10 ml of cooking oil. for adult goats, orally drench with 30 ml of cooking oil. That will do it. but my friend, reverend bro. joe aduana of the oblates of mary immaculate who manages the galilee farms in bugwak, antipas, northcotabato started by the late french missionary fr. yves caroff, has a more ingenious way of dealing with bloat. for very poor farmers who cannot afford to buy and waste cooking oil, he came up with a strategy: he placed a small rope in between the mouth of the goat and tied it loosely on top of the head. this gave the goat with the bloat a lot of discomfort and it kept on wiggling to get the rope out of its mouth. in its effort, the goat farted and out went the bloat. gusto nyang makahulagpos sa tali, atras sya ng atras at galaw nggalaw hanggang sa mapautot. pagka-utot tanggal ang bloat," bro. Joe related with a big laugh.but this incident demonstrates clearly that there are ingenious ways of dealing with farm problems, methods that may not be taught in school but which are nevertheless effective. let us share our experiences so that together, we will helpimprove the philippine goat industry. here's hoping that the coming year 2011 will even be a better year for us Filipinos and all people around the world.Happy New Year and God Bless all of us.manny pinol

http://roosterraiser.multiply.comwww.braveheartfarms.com--- In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, "Immanuel Pinol" <immanuelfp@> wrote:

hi everybody. this is the continuation of what we started the other day which was prompted by questions on dying goat kids raised by arvin and al of zunivla farms. just a few points before we start on our second series of lessons. first, the information that i share here are results of our experiences in the braveheart farm located in kidapawan city, northcotabato. second, i am not assuming the role of an expert or a veterinarian. i am just another farmer trying to share what i learned (and i paid a fortune and lost many priceless goats to learn all of these things). and third, i suggest you consult a veterinarian to validate what is shared with you.arvin complained that his sick goat kids died even after they were injected with vitamins. well, a vitamin supplement is not a cure. even if you inject one gallon of vitamins on a dying kid, it will not bring him back to life. one ton of fertilizer will not save your palay affected by tungro. you have to know and address what ails him. al asked how much tylocin should be given to a young kid and which part of the body should it be administered. for purposes of protecting our young ones from health complications after birth, we give them .2 ml of tylocin using very fine needles and injected in the muscle in the neck or thighs in the hind legs. you have to be careful because you might hit the blood veins.we started doing this when we noticed that some of the newborn kids would just suddenly get weak or become lame and die. we just experimented and it worked. wala na kaming nalulumpong batang kambing. i am not promoting tylocin. i don't even know who manufacturesit but it has done wonders for us. pati sipon at basang tae, nagagamot. also, we are now giving our newborn kids probiotics initially at 1ml every other day. i used to do this before pero nahinto because i was buying the probiotic paste from the US. It was very expensive and it was difficult to ship it to the Philippines. recently, i started using itagain because i found a local supplier of liquid probiotics and it is sold for P980 per liter.i am also using it to rehabilitate my emaciated mature goats which were neglected during the election period. i give them 3 ml orally every other day and it is doing wonders.having newborn goat kids is a beautiful feeling. but you will get depressed as soon as they start manifesting problems. arvin's problem about multiple kids born to a doe requires a strategy and my friends at mt. carmel baptist rural life center have perfected this. since they are milking the does, they make sure that the kids are separated from the dam at night. they are confined to a pen beside their dams so that both the mother and the kids will not get upset. The following morning, they milk the does first before setting the kids free. the snuggling of the kids at their dam's udder actually induces the production of additional milk. that's mother nature working. the problem with multiple kids is that there will be runting because the bigger kid will dominate the smaller ones. using the mt. carmel technique, isolate the kids at night. put them in a pen just beside their dams. in the morning, make sure that the smallest andweakest kid is allowed to suck the milk first, followed by the secondweakest and then the strong kid. this will be easier for the small backyard goat raisers to do. mas mahirap ito para sa akin because i have about 400 goats and obviously, the only ones given

preferential attention are the pedigreed and most expensive breeding materials. runny nose or sipon could be caused either by allergy, especially if the kids start eating the feeds given to their dams, or infection. the feed powder goes into their nostrils and sometimes it would stick there. at first indication of runny nose, get a clean clothsoaked in water with kalamansi juice and wipe off the nose. if it does not stop after two or three days, try applying vicks. kung ayaw pa ring tumigil, then go to the reliable tylocin. mahaba na ito. tomorrow, we will discuss the bloat and the practical ways to address it. happy new year.

In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, mark lasdoce <mrk_d12@>

wrote:Thank you Gov. Manny! we learned a lot from you....hapi new year and more power!Mark LasdoceBogo City,Cebuhttp://4mblivestocks.multiply.com________________________________From: Immanuel Pinol <immanuelfp@>To: goatraisers@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 7:41:24 AMSubject: [goatraisers] Re: high mortality on goat kids:

Lessons from Braveheart Farms (1)hi al. i can understand how you feel. i was there. health care for the young goats is a long and tedious exercise. let me share with you my experiences. Let us make this our first installment because a lot of things will be discussed. this first installment will be all about pre-birth and after birth. you have to understand that the health care program for your goat kids does not only start after birth. it should actually start before the breeding of the does. Before you attempt to breed your does, they must have been dewormedand in top health state. otherwise, they will give birth to weak kids and they too will suffer during the milking period because their bodies would not have sufficientnutrients to support the milk requirements of their babies. nangyari na rin sa akin yan. nakita ko lang na naglandi ang kambing ko, pinakastahan ko na agad. In the end, you lose a lot because of your impatience. In deworming, you could use albendazole or ivermectin injectable. kung walang wala at nasa bukid ka, puedeng purgahin ang kambing ng bunga (betel nut). use the young nut and divide one nut into two parts and feed one part to each goat. hwag damihan at magtatae ng dugo ang kambing mo. during the pregnancy, the does should be fed well. since you are using forage, feed them ad libitum. wala pa akong nakitang kambing na namatay dahil sa sobrang kain ng damo. their natural instincts will tell them when to stop eating. do not ever believe those who say that the pregnant does should not be fed a lot because they will have huge babies and have problems in delivering these babies. kung payat ang nanay, madali nga ang paglabas ng anak pero madali ding mamatay kasi payat din. during birthing,

the does should be helped and assisted. the umbilical cord must be cut and tied with athread right after birth. then you dab the end of the umbilical cord with cotton soaked in betadine or any disinfectant to prevent tetanus. to prevent juvenile paralysis and othercomplications, our practice is to give the newborn goat kids a light dose of tylocin antibiotics. the mother goat must also be attended to with the caretaker making sure that the placenta is ejected and the blood that stuck in the tail hair is washed off to prevent injection. it is advisable that the dam is given a shot of oxytocin to make sure that she is cleansed after birth. right after birth, the caretaker must make sure that the newborn kid gets to suck the dam's udder for the colostrum. there are first-time mothers who will not allow their young ones to suck their udder. kailangang hawakan o talianand the kid must be guided to the udder. also, there are mother goats who are either short thus their udders are so close to the floor that the newborn kids could not find theteats or very tall that the kid cannot reach the teats. kailangan matiyaga ang caretaker. kung hindi, magugulat ka na lang kung bakit nangamatay ang anak ng kambing mo. let us make this lesson No. 1. tomorrow, we will discuss the common causes of death among newborn kids up until they are about 2 to 3 months old. (by the way, i know that many would raise their eyebrows and ask how i, a former governor, could know all of these things. well, i may have been a journalist and a politician but i was, am and will always be a farmer. ibreed my goats and my gamefowls and nobody designs my breeding program except me.)

--- In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, Zunivla Farm<zunivlafarm@> wrote:Sir and big brothers, ano ho ba ang pinaka praktikal at basic care ng mga kaanakna kambing. Karamihan sa aming small goat raisers ay namamatayan ng kambing onthe first month pagka panganak considering most of us ay upgraded lang ( native cross to any of anglo/boer/saanen buck). Like sa farm ko this month, i got 18 (14 females/4males) newly born kids ( native cross to saanen buck ) and i lost 4 as of this day. Hindi ma explain ng caretaker bakit namamatay, healthy ang does during pregnancy naman at may sariling housing, although hinahayaan namin mag range ang ina 3 days after makapanganak para mas makain ng tama. Naiiwan ang mga anak sa housing and bumabalik ang ina para makadede ang kids. We dont give concentrate feeds, kumpay lang ng napier, indigofera, ipil and kakawate. Puwede bang SOP na mag inject/oral na kami ng vitamins after birth sa ( 2.5 to 3.5 kgs ave wt )kids para sure na healthy. Ilang days after kidding na puwede na injectionan. What kind of vitamin ( ADE? / iron ) and dosage. Injection o oral. May iba bang alternative and practikal (cost effective) na pwede ipainom para sure healthy. Ano ba ang alternate commercial milk ang puwede ipainom. Since remote ang town and barangay location ng farm, bearbrandpowder milk pinaiinom sa medyo mahina kids. Is it advisable? Sa sipon and diarrhea, ano ang pinaka mabisa. Pwede na ba i deworm after birth. Praktikal tips please... thanks and happy new year to all.. Al of Bataan________________________________From: Immanuel Pinol <immanuelfp@>To: goatraisers@yahoogroups.comSent: Tue, December 28, 2010 6:36:44 AM

Subject: [goatraisers] Re: high mortality on goat kids

hi arvin, i would like to help you with your problems of dying goat kids but i need a clearer picture. are the kids in the range with their dams? or are they in a goat house? please ask your caretaker too to check whether the dams have sufficient milk in their udders. and whether the goat kids get to suck milk from their dams. how old are they when they start manifesting these health problems? do you have neighbors who also raise goats? are their goats suffering from the same problem? i ask this because if all the goats in your community suffer from the same problem, then it could be the environment and the climatic conditions.however, if the problem is confined to your farm alone, then the cold climate could not be the culprit. happy new year.--- In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, "guyfromboracay" <guyfromboracay@> wrote:

kung malamig, install 25 watt lightbulbs and isolate mothers and kids in pens to prevent sniffles.

--- In goatraisers@yahoogroups.com, Arvin Dumendeng <arvin.dumendeng@>

wrote:Halos sampu na pong goat kids ang namatay sa farm naming mula noong November.Hindi malaman ng caretaker ko kung ano na ang gagawin para hindi na maulit muliang nangyari. Nakakalungkot isipin ang dami ng namatay. May sinipon, may nagtaeang iba ay di nagtagal ng isang linggo ay pumanaw na. Sa ngayon ay sobrang lamigdaw sa farm namin at hindi ko alam kung mabubuhay pa ang limang goat kids.

Nakaka tatlong vetinaryo na ako pero ibat ibang opinion ang mga sinasabi. Paano ko kaya masosolusyunan ang problemang ito. Pwede po ba kayong magadvise.

Mara ming salamat po. Maligayang pasko at manigong bagong taon sa ating lahat!

Arvin

From: Jun Belen <junbelen@pldtdsl. net>To: goatraisers@ yahoogroups. comSent: Fri, January 7, 2011 3:55:12 PMSubject: Re: [goatraisers] PL 480 no goats for rthe bataan area

For new goat-raisers whose current stocks are predominantly natives

and F1 goats,and who wish to upgrade their herd, I would sincerely recommend the following:

1. Instead of buying or borrowing imported bucks, I would recommend using F4 or island-born bucksWhen I was starting, I made the mistake of thinking that an imported buck would "fast track" the developmentof my herd. Unfortunately, none of my original imported bucks lasted and the mortality was high.In fact, up till now, I still use a 75% saanen and a 75% boer to upgrade my local and F1 stocks.

Note further that imported bucks, due to their size, have a very hard time mounting native and even F1 does.

2. I sincerely hope that all goat-raisers in this forum register in their local goat group.The Federation is composed of various regional and special interest groups and I suggest that you playan active role in your own provincial groupAs far as I know, the Federation does not guarantee anyone that they will get goats from dispersal programsHowever, the local groups do help beginning goat-raisers to gain knowledge and practical experience

3. For goat-raisers who wish to avail of buck loans of 75% and higher grade bucks, I would suggest that youcontact your local group head... I think that if you are serious enough in raising goats, that your group headwill find a suitable buck loan for you

I know of a lot of members here who are willing to loan bucks to deserving members.... If you are a seriousraiser and are unable to find a buck loan, please email me privately, I will try to find one for you

4. In our meeting with DA RFU 3 about PL 480, the Director advised us that there were PL 480 recipients from Bataan area,and that the Aurora Province actually waived their allocations from the PL 480 program. I dont know who received theBataan PL 480 allocations and teh Aurora allocations but I dont think it went to Federation members... As I said previously,that is a DA/ BAI program that only they can answer

Hope that helps

From: Immanuel Pinol <immanuelfp@yahoo. com>To: goatraisers@ yahoogroups. comSent: Wed, January 12, 2011 6:00:36 AMSubject: [goatraisers] Re: Economics of Goat Raising

  hi kirk. for me, farming, specifically the breeding of goats and gamefowls, is a passion. it is something that gives me unquantifiable happiness.

this could be the reason why i have not really bothered to count the nickels and dimes in the operation of my goat raising project. but you are right. when you go to goatraising with the purpose of making it a source of income, you should make a little accounting to determine whether it is profitable or not.

i started with five imported but unregistered boers in late 2002 towards 2003. when the does gave birth to beautiful kids, many of my friends came and asked whether they could buy the kids to be used in upgrading their own stocks.

that was when i decided to acquire more breeding stocks from the US, this time making sure that they were covered with pedigree papers for easier breeding.

my involvement with dairy goats started only about four years ago. that was when the land bank of the philippines, impressed by my goat project, granted me a sizable loan to build a new building and acquire additional breeding materials

of dairy goats.

oh, you will not believe what i went through to acquire the breeding materials that i have in my farm now. i drove from los angeles to san angelo, texas for two days just to buy boer doelings.

i travelled in the middle of a rainy night to the wingwood farm in northern california from salinas only to be told by karen smith that she was not selling goats at the moment.

i got my goats from kastdemur's after a year of waiting. i drove with my family to kelseyville to visit lakeshore farms. the most convenient farm to visit was elkhorn in prunedale, california because it was just about 30 minutes away from salinas where i usually stay when in the US.

but that early, i already decided that i would become the breeders' breeder. i saw the demand for really good breeding materials. the only source of verified and outstanding dairy goat breeding materials was mt. carmel. and everybody lined up and waited for years.

so braveheart farms was designed to fill this void.

initially, i tried two set-ups in raising my goats. i kept my prized boers and dairy goats in elevated pens and i ranged my commercial herds (which was intended to produce unregistered breeding materials for upgrading purposes).

for a farm whose objective is to produce healthy breeding materials, penning the goats is the better option. it is very hard to monitor the health state of the goats in the field. in the pen, i can just take a look at their droppings to determine whether they are healthy or not. in the pen, i can easily control the breeding program and even the health maintenance schedules.

besides, goats in the range were doing damage to my longkong lanzones trees whose bark they nibbled.

i have almost 400 goats in the farm now (there was a time when my herd reached over 500) and i employ seven people. three of them are in charge of the goats (mixing the feeds in our mini-feed mill, cleaning the goat house, feeding, bathing, delousing, deworming, hoof trimming, drenching, injecting and setting the breeding pens), two more, a father and son, gather the forage and chop green bananas to be mixed with the feeds, and another two gather the manure to be brought to the vermiculture area where it is fed to the earthworms to produce our organic fertilizer.

is it profitable? yes, it is. i am able to pay my loan, buy the materials for the feeds and pay the workers' wages.

would the imported goats be the same as the hybrid corn or rice which would require a lot of inputs to raise? no, they are just like your ordinary

goats but their genes will give you more milk and more meat.

you are right about goat raising being more economical if you have sufficient forage. mt. carmel has shown this. i think alaminos farm, with their salad garden concept, is developing this.

i am weak in this area. but we are catching up. my only advantage is i have a cavendish banana farm and those that do not meet the export standards either go to the vermiculture area to be processed by the earthworms to fertilizer or are chopped and mixed with our feeds of corn and rice bran, copra meal, sorghum, soya and molasses.

i still believe that dairy goat raising would bring in more income to a farming family than producing goat for the meat market. a family can raise up to 50 heads of does which, should they produce an average of 1 liter of milk daily for six months every year, could earn an estimated P675,000 from milk alone.

while i don't like the meat of the dairy goat, that family could still sell the whethered goats to the meat market and the doelings to other farmers.

producing goats for the meat market is another area worth exploring. the only challenge is to produce goats which could grow to at least 30-40 kilos in six months.

with a meat recovery of 60 percent (excluding the head and entrails), a 40 kilo

boer could earn the farmer P3,600 at only P150 per kilo. a family-run goat farm which could produce 10 heads every month would make about P36,000. not bad.

i don't want to start a debate with cattle raisers but i am convinced that a well-managed goat farm would make more money than a cattle ranch.

manny pinolhttp://roosterraise r.multiply. comhttp://www.bravehea rtfarms.com

In goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, "Kirk" <KZeny@> wrote:I think there are unanswered (even unasked) questions on the management or even the business plan(s) for raising goats. There is at least a 2x2 matrix of goat raising operations, each with different issues. That is, dairy or meat; small holder or larger/better capitalized raisers. Within each of these catagories there would be different answers regarding totally confined vs. pasture only, or combinations.

One issue that has troubled me regarding all the top-of-the-line imported goats is whether this is heading down the old path of good genetics needing high cost inputs. Just like hybrid rice where the small farmer cannot achieve the benefits due to lack of capital for the required fertilizer and chemical inputs. Or pig raisers whose feed cost for a kilo of weight gain is higher than his pig selling price.

For the top growers who may be able to get high prices for either

dairy products or prime cuts of goat meat, the premium genetics probably will be worth it, particularly those with land relatively cheap transportation to either the Manila or Cebu markets. To me the number one issue in any farming activity in my area is minimizing the input costs. My hope would be to achieve an operation similar to the MBRLC model using leaf concentrate and minimum purchased concentrates. Less milk, to be sure, but much lower costs. Now, how much hired labor will that support for the cut and carry of totally confined goats? For the family operation I believe it is profitable. For the absentee owner/farmer, there is probably very few agricultural activities that will be profitable in the absence of investment in productivity equipment or methods and good operational management.

As a side comment, I find that where I am using grazing paddocks, there is still labor cost because of the simple fact that the goats eat the best forage and so the less nutritous, less palatable plants have the advantage and soon dominate (yes, including hogonoy). So unless the pasture area is nice and flat and planted to a single type of grass, there will be significant labor input into maintaining the pasture.Wow, more than too much for this post. For those who have endured, mercy and thanks.

KirkPanay

In goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, michael tom jim gonzales <michaeltomjim@ wrote:If we can Focus more on the Goat management aspect of Goat Farming than the Politics of it. Simple Question like: If we were to move forward in the MEAT Industry, Will Complete Confinement be really Viable? Economical? Will Grazeland Range never work in the Tropics? The moment you completely Confine goats Expenses is too much for the owner especially if he is to pay for labor.

What can you say about this matters?

Tj GonzalesUBGSRA

4.3. Re: Economics of Goat Raising

Posted by: "Immanuel Pinol" immanuelfp@yahoo.com   immanuelfp Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:03 am (PST)

hi jun. if you come to think of it, there are goats all over the world. the alpines came from europe, boers from south africa, kalahari from the deserts of africa, la manchas from america, spanish goats from spain, anglo nubians from india and england, and so on.

the vegetations in these countries are not the same. which means goats can adopt to the environment it is in and consequently survive on anything that grows in a specific locality.

ang alam ko tabako lang yata ang hindi kinakain ng kambing. it devours almost anything. kaya may joke nga: goats are not only herbivorous, they are also panty-vorous, kasi pati salawal na nasa sampayan kakainin.

experiment. try feeding him with any green plant growing in your locality for as long as it is not poisonous. i advised a young breeder from negros occidental where they have a lot of sugarcane to try

feeding his goats with canetops.

if you have green corn stalks that would be good for the goats. pero kung hindi sya sanay, initially aayaw yan. hwag mong biglain. on the first day, give him one fourth of the corn stalks and 3/4 of the usual forage; the next day 1/2 of the usual forage, 1/2 of the corn stalks; on the third day 3/4 of the corn stalks and 1/4 of the usual forage.

if the goats get used to it, then you have a new forage source.

the joy of farming is in discovering new ways to improve your harvest and your animals.

manny pinolhttp://roosterraise r.multiply. comhttp://www.bravehea rtfarms.com

In goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, jun atayde <chinat10@.. .> wrote:

Good Day Sir Manny,

You have done so much in your farm we are wishing we could do the same. We are talking about economics of goat farming I would like to have an idea from you and from our fellow goat raisers about the economical feeds which we can substitute from commercial feeds to maximize the use of the land as well. Like what I read  from other forums that corn leaves after harvest can be fed by goats and also what you said rejected bananas. Is there anything more aside from these?

ThanksJun

6a. Re: Breeding for the Meat Market

Posted by: "Immanuel Pinol" immanuelfp@yahoo.com   immanuelfp Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:53 pm (PST)

hi tj. thanks for the clean bill of health certificate for my goats. he he he. appreciate that.

you earlier asked whether it would be profitable to raise goats in confinement for the meat market.

i think in your case, it is very viable because of your proximity to the market.

why don't you look into this, start a 20-goat boer module and check whether it can be done. i know there is a huge demand in the market.

thanks.

manny pinolhttp://roosterraise r.multiply. comhttp://www.bravehea rtfarms.com

In goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, michael tom jim gonzales <michaeltomjim@ wrote: Don, Yes We got Goat from Manny Pinol and they pass the CAE test from Bai, They wont allow shipment of Goats from minadano without CAE test first. even if the wait was long, around 5 days or more of waiting for the Clearance.  I just hope BAI can do something about the fast issuance of Result so we can shipped on Sched.

Tj GonzalesUnited Bulacan Goat and Sheep Raisers Assoc. (UBGSRA)

On Tue, 1/11/11, Don M <don2001m@.. .> wrote: From: Don M <don2001m@.. .Subject: [goatraisers] Re: Breeding the Dairy Goat: Lessons From Braveheart Farms (2)

Gov. Pinol, Thank you for the reply. I hope I didn't embarrass you, but I am sure glad to hear you clear up that rumor. Now everyone knows the real truth in the matter. My animals are in the process of being tested, just

in case. The only animals we have at the farm, other than those that came from Australia, came from the Baptist Center near you.

I recall the discussion about the 4 bucks they imported from the U.S. (during the 2008 Congress). It was mentioned that they did not have CAE when they left the US but tested positive when they got here and in 2008 they had been in quarantine for 4 years or so.

It would be nice to find out why the tests are different. CAE is similar to arthritis, I understand, so you would think it would show up more in colder countries. Any arthritis I felt in Canada is long gone now. :-)

I have a few extra Boer bucks but am in the market for an Anglo Nubian buck.

Don M.Maramag, Bukidnon

In goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, "Immanuel Pinol" <immanuelfp@ > wrote:hi don. i don't know where the story about the CAE in my farm came from. must be from envious groups whose goats now look like the servants of the braveheart goats.you remember that ngscp goat show in cagayan de oro in 2007 where the braveheart farms boers won all of the major awards? best boer buck, best boer doe, best boer buckling, and best boer doeling. i was never invited again to a similar goat show. he he he!

my farm is periodically inspected by the bureau of animal quarantine, specifically dr. estrada and lately dr. duce. blood samples are taken regularly and all tests have cleared my goats. they issued me health certificates. i would be the first to warn you of CAE in my stocks if they are indeed present in my farm.the best way to validate this is for people who have acquired goats from my farm to have the animals checked by competent authorities. there is a long list: art almeda of alaminos goat farm, camilo velasco jr. of urbiztondo goat farm, dr. boying llorin of naga city goat farm, efren bartolome of bulacan, tj gonzales of bulacan, ariel alsua of bicol,

ismael pakingan of spartans goat farm, bert orteza of antipolo, cong. pol bataoil of pangasinan, dr. bo puentespina of malagos garden, darwin tinasas and almost all of the breeders in davao city, sam chitong of cadiz city and many more.i suggest that the tests be conducted by private laboratories.the last goat death in my farm was that of a prized lakeshore anglo nubian doe which just arrived from the US, ps i love you, which suffered miscarriage during the long trip and died soon afterwards because of internal infection.before that there was a young anglo nubian doeling which died from an unmonitored bloat and before that a handsome boer young buck which had urinary calculi. when i felt i could not save him, i had him slaughtered.i don't want to blow my horn but i believe i have one of the cleanest goat farms anywhere in the country. sometimes, i do the cleaning myself.you have CAE in your farm? what are the indications? do you have sick goats now? you should ask experts to draw blood samples from your herd to allay your fears of the presence of CAE in your farm.as for the presence of CAE in mt. carmel, i heard this before from rev. al hoops (i'm not sure if i got his family name correctly) who told me that three goats from 6 M galaxy which he brought in for mt. carmel were held by quarantine authorities because of the presence of CAE.six M galaxy is one of the most respected and reputable breeding farms in the US. in fact, after that incident, the mclures felt so offended that the last time i heard, they are not sending their goats to the philippines.i do not want to question the testing method of our quarantine authorities but how can you possibly reconcile that finding with the fact that in the US, the goat raisers are so well-organized and supervised by their associations, like the ADGA?i feel sad about this story of CAE presence in mt. carmel because if there is any institution that has shown so much hard work and dedication to help filipino farmers in this part of the country, it is this group of southern baptist missionaries.the milk produced by mt. carmel has been in the market for decades now. why aren't people getting sick or dying if their goats are indeed infected with CAE?

i believe there should really be an association like the ADGA here in the philippines so that all of our dairy goats will be registered, their health conditions continuously checked and milk production recorded.that's the only way we can stop the rumor mongers whose only objective is to put down successful farms because they could no longer catch up with the quality standards of the goats produced by these farms.as for your fears of getting CAE through artificial insemination (AI), the best way to avoid that is not to do AI. i have never tried AI on my goats. i would prefer mother nature to take its natural course.manny pinolhttp://roosterraise r.multiply. comhttp://braveheartfa rms.com

In goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, "Don M" <don2001m@> wrote:Hi Manny,I attended your Congress in Davao a couple of years ago and then toured your farm.After that Congress there were rumors that the Mindanao Baptist farm Goats were infected with CAE, and the same with yours. That said, then everyone who bought from them or you has CAE. That means that I would have CAE at my farm, and many others in the area have CAE.CAE does not seem to be a problem in the US (nobody cares). It seems that goats leaving the US, in several case, test negative in the US but positive when they arrive here. Is someone using the wrong test methods?Some bucks from CAE positive tested farms have been sold to places that do AI. How can we be sure we dont get AI from CAE bucks?

This is serious, I would think.Don M.

Retired CanadianMaramag, Bukidnon

7.

How to Produce Organic Fertilizer from Goat Manure

Posted by: "Immanuel Pinol" immanuelfp@yahoo.com   immanuelfp Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:28 pm (PST)

hi everybody. i received an email from carlo castro of romblon asking for additional information on how to start a vermiculture project to produce organic fertilizers out of goat manure.

i advised him to check out my folder on braveheart farms' organic fertilizer production on http://roosterraise r.multiply. com.

i decided to post the additional information so that i will be able to share it with other goatraisers.

here are the things you need to start an organic fertilizer production facility:1. you need a sufficient supply of goat manure. hog, cattle, horse or carabao manure and chicken dung could also be used.2. you need corn cobs or sugar mill mudpress3. you need banana stalks4. you need coconut leaves or rice straws5. you need to set up a vermibox6. you need two kilos of african nightcrawlers or earthworms

there are no set rules on the size of the vermibox but in my farm, i used my old concrete gamefowl teepees and later hollow blocks. my boxes measure 1.5 x 6 meters. you can freely design your vermibox.

if you use hollow blocks, it should be two tiers.

it is best to set up your vermiboxes in the open area, preferrably with a little shade from fruit trees or under coconut trees. do not ever make the mistake of establishing your vermiboxes under a roofed building.

do not make the mistake of cementing the flooring of your vermibox. it should just be the earthen surface. kung sementohin mo ang sahig, hindi tatagos ang tubig kapag tag-ulan at malulunod ang bulate mo.

in each of our vermibox, we put in four (4) sacks of goat manure and four (4) sacks of substrate consisting of corn cobs, mudpress and chopped banana stalk. the banana stalk will provide the moisture.

when you have mixed everything, you put in two kilos of earthworms

and cover the substrate with coconut leaves or rice straw. the earthworms would like to work in the dark.

you have to continuously monitor the moisture by grabbing a handful of substrate and pressing it. if nothing drips out of your hands, there is no moisture. you have to spray the box with water, otherwise the earthworms will leave.

after 30 days, the earthworms would have already consumed almost all of the substrate. it is time to divide the processed substrate in the middle and put in a small quantity of goat manure to lure the earthworms to go to center and leave the processed food.

this will ensure that when you harvest the vermicast on the 45th day, most of the earthworms would already be in the middle of the box feasting on the new food and the eggs they left behind would have already hatched. by then the baby worms would also be in the center.

it is time to harvest, air dry the vermicast under the shade for two days and use a screen to separate the rough from the fine vermicast. the fine vermicast is your class A organic fertilizer which you could sell while the rough vermicast will be your Class B which you could use in your own vegetable garden.

we sell a 50-kilo bag of class A vermicast at P500 and we are able to produce between 400-500 bags every 45 days. most of our organic fertilizer production, however, is now being used in our cavendish banana farm.

the earthworms, by the way, are not your ordinary earthworms which burrow into the ground. these are the african night crawlers and they are being sold at P500 per kilo.

manny pinolhttp://roosterraise r.multiply. comhttp://www.bravehea rtfarms.com

2a. Re: Breeding the Dairy Goat: Lessons From Braveheart Farms (5)

Posted by: "Immanuel Pinol" immanuelfp@yahoo.com   immanuelfp Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:57 pm (PST)

hi everybody. this is our 5th and last installment on the sharing of

experiences in the breeding of outstanding dairy goats.

most of what i practice now in the breeding of my dairy goats i learned from the breeding of gamefowls.

when a rooster and a hen, or in the case of dairy goats, produce outstanding offspring, you have to take note of this genetic jackpot and safeguard both parents.

for as long as they are still productive, you will continue to produce outstanding milkers.

your only problem is the fact that goats and chicken, like human beings, have a productive phase in their lifetime and will ultimately die. goats could be productive up to the age of 8 to 10 years.

this is where the understanding of simple genetics matters most.

i will no longer befuddle you with the gregor mendell theories on genetics. (but if you want to understand the more complicated genetic process, you could go to the internet and search "line breeding goats." you will get a lot of inputs.)

simple na lang gagawin natin.

how do you reproduce your outstanding buck and dam which give you prolific milkers?

we use a form of inbreeding which is called line breeding.

the female offspring of the genetic jackpot is bred back to the sire while the male offspring is bred back to the mother.

the father x daughter and son x mother mating is designed to copy the genetic design of the original parents. but you don't stop with the first backcross.

in the first mating of father x daughter and son x mother, you will produce offsprings that theoritically will carry 3/4 of the genetics of either parents.

the next step is again to breed the father x granddaughter/ daughter (or what we call the double daughter) and the double son x mother/grandmother.

what you will produce here will be offsprings that will separately

carry 7/8 of the genetics of each of the parents.

for some, that level is sufficient to produce what could be considered as replicas of the original parents.

but there are purists who would like to go one level higher. they go to a third backcross, mating back the triple daughter to the original sire and the triple son to the original dam to produce animals which would carry 15/16 of the genetic components of the original parents.

with the breeding materials carrying 15/16 of the genetic components of both parents, you can go back to what you did initially to produce the outstanding milkers - crossbreed the 15/16s from sire and dam sides.

"puede pala 'yan sa kambing?" a flabbergasted retired general cesar cabalquinto, a new goat raising convert, asked me.

in animals yes but among human beings, it is a social taboo. it is called incest.

the only danger in this method of inbreeding is, according to geneticists, it could highlight not only the good traits but also the bad traits.

i tried doing this to my boers and i noticed that somehow some of them came out small.

what you do is when the bad traits are manifested by specific goats, you must cull, as in convert them to kinilaw at adobong kambing.

but this is the best method to perpetuate a line of outstanding milkers.

you could also breed half-brother to half-sister, cousin to cousin, nephew to aunt, uncle to niece, but the full brother-full sister mating is discouraged, except when there is no other way to perpetuate the bloodline.

in my farm now, what i do is i breed back to hidalgo clark, my outstanding spotted buck from oklahoma, his daughters because i have validated that his daughters are prolific producers. one of his daughters, green gardens barchetta recently gave birth to a buckling which is a double-son of hidalgo clark.

before my very eyes, i saw barchetta produce 2.5 liters of milk from just her right udder. the left udder was where her kid was getting the

milk.

i am also breeding back alexis, alexa's first born buck, to alexa because i want to perpetuate her milking prowess.

when i would have many hidalgo clark double daughters or triple daughters, i will breed them to the double or triple sons of alexa to produce a herd of prolific milkers.

i am doing the same thing with brown bomber and the california anglo nubians from kastdemur's, lakeshore and elkhorn.

the same is also being done with my la manchas.

a few years from now, braveheart farms will have at least three distinct families of outstanding dairy goats. this can only be done if you have a simple understanding of genetics.

so to go back to our first post on the breeding of the dairy goats, always be on the lookout for the best milk producer in your herd.

this is where the tattooing of the ears for anglo nubians and tail webs for la mancha is very critical. in gamefowls, we punch holes in the feet webs or clip the right or left covers of the nose to identify the bloodlines.

you must be able to identify the sire and the dam. kaya hindi puede sa genetic reproduction ang herd mating because you will not be able to identify which buck or rooster produced the outstanding offspring.

now, let me repeat the caveat: i am not a veterinarian or an animal science graduate. i am just another goat and gamefowl breeder who loves to experiment and discover.

do not be afraid to experiment. i assure you, however you do it, when you breed a goat to another goat what will come out will certainly be another goat, not a satyr.

manny piñolhttp://roosterraise r.multiply. comhttp://www.bravehea rtfarms.com

8a.

Re: Breeding the Dairy Goat: Lessons From Braveheart Farms (4)

Posted by: "Immanuel Pinol" immanuelfp@yahoo.com   immanuelfp Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:08 am (PST)

hi everybody. in our fourth installment on the subject of breeding the dairy goats, i wanted to go straight right away to "perpetuating outstanding milking lines" but there are some anecdotes and stories i will first share with you before we go to serious matters.

some people think that because we use the word "bloodline" when referring to a family of chicken or goats, the genetic buildup of our animals is in their blood.

my uncle took this word literally. when he noticed that his fighting cock could not fly very high during the sparring bouts, he decided to catch a swift and high-flying bird called "marakbak."

he then took a syringe and drew blood from under the bird's wings and injected this to the vein of his low-flying rooster. the following morning his rooster was dead.

there are two factors which could influence a child - hereditary and environmental. when the child looks like his father, that is hereditary influence; when he looks like the guy next door, that is environmental influence. that's a joke, of course. he he he!

seriously, did you even wonder why ilocanos are dark-skinned, the maranaos are fair-skinned and the igorots are stocky? or why the japanese have almond eyes, the chinese are chinky and the indian's deep-eyed?

my view is that because of the thousands of years of intermarriage among members of a clan or tribe, these nationalities have developed a genetic strain that sets them apart from other people.

when they marry among themselves, the offsprings will have predictable looks and traits.

but what would happen if you pair a long-limbed and fast-running ethiopian to the enormous samoan? honestly, i cannot predict the outcome.

the lesson here is that if you breed goats that belong to a strain of good milkers, you will certainly produce an offspring that will be a good milker too.

but even if you use an imported buck from a high milking line to cross with mongrel does, you will never be able to tell whether the offsprings will also be good milkers.

once in a while though, you hit a jackpot.

about 20 years ago, the philippine cockfighting community watched in awe as a flock of white roosters from zamboanga, popularly known as the zamboanga white, dominated the cockpits all over the country.

the white roosters were on top of all the other breeds for about five years and then they started losing.

this was the same story with the mitra roosters. they were hot for a while but soon they disappeared.

but there is a breed of fighting chickens which has consistently won over the years in the hands of different breeders. the line is called lemon 84 and this started from a lemon-hackled rooster that american breeder duke hulsey brought to the philippines.

until today, the lemon 84 line is still being used by big-time rooster breeders in major competitions and they still keep on winning.

the fleeting glory enjoyed by the zamboanga whites and the mitra asils was a perfect example of a genetic jackpot, a slam dunk of sorts. the only problem was the breeders did not know how to perpetuate the line. when the original breeding materials died, they lost the bloodline.

on the other hand, the lemon 84 breed is a perfect example of another genetic jackpot whose breeders were able to preserve the bloodline to the point that the lemon 84s of today still look like the original lemon 84 of 40 years ago.

how did the breeders of the lemon 84 preserve and perpetuate the bloodline and how can this be replicated in the perpetuation of outstanding lines of milking goats?

we will have the answers in our next installment when will talk about genetics from a layman's perspective and in the process educate our goatraisers of how to preserve outstanding goat lines.

manny pinolhttp://roosterraise r.multiply. comhttp://www.bravehea rtfarms.com In goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, "Immanuel Pinol" <immanuelfp@ ...> wrote:

hi everybody. this is our third installment on the lesson "breeding the dairy goat."let me repeat what i said earlier: i am not a veterinarian or an animal science graduate. (i hold a master's degree in rural economic development and i am pursuing a doctorate degree in the same field now.) but i am an avid student of animal breeding and genetics and i have the luxury of being able to perform actual experiments on both gamefowls and goats.

the breeding of an outstanding dairy goat is a hit and miss exercise. it is the same with the breeding of gamefowls or fighting roosters. the difficulty in breeding fighting roosters and milking goats is that aside from their appearance, or phenotype, you will still have to determine whether they have inherited the genetic attributes of their parents in fighting or milk production, or genotype. the problem with the genotype is it is not visible.

i may breed a grey rooster, which won six times in a derby, to a hen and produce grey stags or breed my spotted doe, sd alexa which produces up to 3.5 liters a day and get a spotted doeling. the looks are there. but the question is: will the grey stag fight like his father and win as many times? or will the spotted doeling produce as much milk as her dam? you will never know the answer until you fight the grey stag or you milk the spotted doeling. it is so unlike the breeding of meat goats where the only factor to determine a successful breeding is the size of the offspring. the outcome is immediately visible and you can discontinue the breeding if the kids are not healthy or not as big as the parents. so to the prospective dairy goat farmer, a word of advice: do not be awed by the information that this goat or that goat came from australia or america. that is not an assurance that it will milk.i have seen many impressive australian anglo nubians. and also american dairy goats. perfect appearance, roman nose and pendulous ears. but i was told they do not produce as much milk. so, what's the point breeding them?dairy goat and gamefowl breeding is just like gold mining. when you start with proven breeding materials,it is just the same as seeing and following a gold vein. all you have to do is dig and pray that the vein leads you to the mother lode.in gamefowl breeding, we call that jackpot a "nick." don't ask me where the word came from. i don't have any idea. it happens when the mating of a rooster and a specific hen produces offsprings which are winners.do not expect to hit that jackpot when you breed a labuyo (philippine wild rooster) to a kabir hen or when you breed a pair of mongrel goats.when acquiring your breeding materials, do not be afraid to ask the breeder: what is the milk production record of the dam and what is the genetic background of the buck? if both have outstanding track records in milk production, your chances of hitting the jackpot are greater.so lesson No. 3, even when acquiring breeding materials of your dairy goats from a proven line, always ask for the specific performance of

the parents of the stocks you are acquiring.with that, and with a little luck, the mother lode of gold is just five months away.manny pinol http://roosterraise r.multiply. com http://www.bravehea rtfarms.com

In goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, "Immanuel Pinol" <immanuelfp@ > wrote:hi everybody. if there is anybody filipino dairy goat raisers should thank for opening our eyes to the potentials of goat dairying, it should be the american southern baptist pastor reverend harold watson and the baptist missionaries of the mt. carmel baptist rural life center in barangay kinuskusan, bansalan, davao del sur.it was rev. harold, who was raised in the farms of the deep-south america, who introduced the anglo nubians (including la mancha and boers. i think they also experimented with other dairy breeds.) to goat farmers in the davao and cotabato areas.for sometime, the reputation and influence of mt. carmel, as the center was later called conveniently, stretched across the oceans, influencing farmers even in the indo-china countries on the sloping agriculture land technology.mt. carmel had two major anglo nubian milking lines: harold and watson and both were prolific milkers. they became so popular that for goat raisers to be able to buy breeding materials from them, you will have to write your name in a log book and wait for over a year, sometimes two years, before you could get your goats.but the farmers living around mt. carmel and who worked occasionally in the center had access to some of the breeding materials and crossed the anglo nubians to the local goats. this started a thriving "underground" goat breeding industry where "mestizos" with pendulous ears were passed off as "mt. carmel" anglo nubians.

mt. carmel continued upgrading their anglo nubian herd but lately i heard that the filipino pastors running the center (rev. watson returned to the US), became downhearted when prized breeding

materials coming from 6 M Galaxy (yes, they have these goats) were declared as CAE positive by the BAI.personally, i have strong doubts on the accuracy of the test. six m galaxy, along with kastdemur's, lakeshore, hills acres, wingwood, and a few more, is one of the most respected goat farms in the US which adheres closely to USDA health protocols.why am i writing extensively about mt. carmel? it is because i want the prospective goat raiser to understand that if you want to start a dairy goat farm, it is best to acquire the mt. carmel anglo nubian lines as they are proven milkers.(the missionaries at mt. carmel are not advertising and talking much but i have heard that they have prized anglo nubians which produce as much as 5 liters of milk in one day.)besides, the progenies of these anglo nubians now are available in the farms of small breeders in mindanao.now, you may ask: can i start my dairy farm with a few native does and an outstanding and purebred anglo nubian buck?in a genetic theory, yes but it will take you ages before you could upgrade that native goat line to produce even one liter of milk because of one simple reason: the philippine native goat is not a milking goat.so, lesson number 2 in the subject "breeding the dairy goat" is: start with the right breeding materials.

what is my recommended breed? i have two dairy breeds: anglo nubian and la manchas. i know some people have saanens,alpines and toggenburgs. the la mancha milk tastes great and when crossed to the anglo nubians, they produce very vigorous and healthy kids. but under philippine conditions, i believe anglo nubians would still be the best choice.it is okay to experiment with different breeds if you have the money to waste, but if you want to start it right at lower cost, go anglo nubian and look for the mt. carmel lines.

you may ask: what about the braveheart anglo nubians? well, i have identified through expensive experiments two lines of goats that i will perpetuate: the oklahoma line of teresa wade and pam green which

are basically spotted goats and the california line of karen senn of kastdemur's, megan tredway carter of lakeshore and dr. jeanne koploy of elkhorn whose goats are related.i will breed them as separate families and perpetuate the lines.by may, i will be getting a herd from debbie emholtz of jacob's pride of arizona whose goats are basically 6 M Galaxy and Goldwaithe.i will not be selling doelings or does for 2011 as i will increase my dairy herd. i have over 100 dairy goats and almost 300 boers. i plan to increase my dairy goats herd to 300 by next year. only bucklings and bucks will be available for this year.manny pinolhttp://roosterraise r.multiply. comwww.braveheartfarms .comIn goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com, "Immanuel Pinol" <immanuelfp@ > wrote:Hi everybody.When breeding, one must always set an objective, meaning if you breed adairy goat your goal must be to come up with a line of goats which wouldbe prolific milkers.

Sometimes though we go astray because we get more focused on the looksof the goats rather than its milking capacity. We love to have AngloNubians with really pendulous ears and Roman noses.Since we don't really have goat shows in the Philippines, the looks ofour Anglo Nubians should be secondary. The focus should be on milkproduction.In the United States, one of the most outstanding lines of Anglo Nubiansis the Six M Galaxy. The McLure family's goats have been consistently inthe top 10 of the ADGA list of outstanding milk producers.But if you go to their website, you will not appreciate their goatsbecause they look so unlike our ideal Anglo Nubians. They look short andplumpy but their udders are truly amazing.

So to start our series of lessons on breeding the dairy goats, here iswhat you should first do: identify the doe or does that give out thehighest volume of milk at the longest period.Never mind the looks. We are not going to field them in a beauty contestanyway.If you still have the mother and father of these does, make sure theyare taken care of and very well protected. They are your goldmine.In our next post, we will discuss how to perpetuate a good milking line.

Manny Pinol

1a. about DE

Posted by: "Ben Rara" barfarm05@yahoo.com   barfarm05 Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:53 am (PST)

Phil,My DE cost is about 2.21 per kilo of feeds and I have been feeding it to my goats and sheep continuously as I find the cost almost nil. I feed only 125gms per head daily except for lactating does and bucks that get double. So, feeding my goats continuously, 365 days a year costs me only 100 pesos per head. To me that's very cheap cost to make my animals healthy all year round and not having to worry about deworming schedules. The bonus is zero mortality caused by worms or scouring. But I suppose you can use DE two weeks every 3 or 4 months. That

will even bring down your cost to only 25 to 33 pesos a year, still way way below(about a quarter) cost of injectable dewormers. And mind you, the cost of production inefficie ncy is even much more with injectable dewormers as you eliminate the worms after it has done damage to your performance.

Doc Boying, DE is safe on pregnant and even suckling kids when they start nibbling on the feeds of their mothers. Like I said, I feed DE to all my animals(and even gamefowls) and I haven't had any problem with it.

The latest "experiment" I did was when one of my newcomer goats showed signs of mange and rough haircoat. I asked my caretaker to dust DE all over the body of the animal. Just yesterday, two or three weeks from the time we did that, I was amazed to see the goat starting to show shiny haircoat and a seemingly thicker hair.

Hope this helps.

Ben

1d. Re: about DE

Posted by: "Phil Biz" philbiz@ymail.com   philbiz@ymail.com Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:14 pm (PST)

Sir Rara,thanx for your post,very informative. You surely are getting the optimum benefits from D.E by feeding it 365 days a year.Your goats also benefit from at least 14 trace minerals that are D.E like copper,zinc and selenium.Again, the key to using D.E is to be consistent using it.Do not expect results after one feeding or once a week feeding.You get results from

D.E only due to the effort you as a farmer put into using it. If you are a goat dairy farmer,you have to hold back your goat's milk until the medicine you injected clears from it's system.You have to throw that milk{money} away.With D.E,there is no hold back time as it 100% organic.One does not have to be concerned about feeding to much D.E as the following will testify too; ORGAN ANALYSIS OF DAIRY COWS, Michigan Department of Agriculture, Laboratory Division, Lansing, MichiganUpon pathological examination of the organs of dairy cows having been givenfree-choice feeding of codex food-grade diatomaceous earth for a period ofapproximately five years, no visible organ abnormalities were observed.

From: Rufo Llorin <nagacitygoatfarm@ yahoo.com>

To: goatraisers@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:46:11 PM

Subject: Re: [goatraisers] Injecting goats

Hi Everyone,

Let me share to you my experience with DE. Sir Ben Rara introduced to me its

use. Several months ago with the start of rainy season we lost a lot of kids

due to scouring and pneumonia. There are several factors that might cause it:

wet grass being fed, water source that's not suitable, change in

temperature, etc.

These are the interventions that we did in our farm:

1. We never give wet grass/forages/ legumes. And on rainy days if dry grass is

not available, the goats have to be contented with feeds alone. We rather have a

hungry goat for a day or two rather than a "scouring" goat.

2. Change our water source

3. gave them injectable and oral dewormers every three months

4. we started to use DE. According to Sir Ben's formulation: 1kg DE mixed with

50 kg feeds. We gave them at 300 mg/ head 2x day. For how many days? Honestly, I

have no data as to how days they were feed with DE enhanced Feeds. But It is

safe for me to say that they were fed with DE/feeds within 5 days. So this

number of days will be our baseline(5days) .We decided not to give them to our

goats being milked but I think it would be safe for them since in my

understanding they are not absorbed from the intestine and into the blood

circulation and the milk expressed from the goat will not be DE tainted. As far

as I know DE only act locally as irritants to the worms inside the animals

gastrointestinal tract.

The question is to why still do we inject/drench dewormers despite the use of

DE? We hope to get rid or minimize the use of chemical dewormers soon as we knew

that extraintestinal worms(lung, liver, etc) are taken care of. We intend to use

these chemical dewormers every 3 months for 3 cycles then discontinue and using

DE at the same time. DE will be given to our goats on a 3 months interval or

earlier depending on the perceive worm load. We still have to find out what will

be the long result.

From December up to this time we never had an incident of scouring and my goats

look pretty good at this time(Ayi Alsua just visited us and he seems to be

impressed on how my herd of goats looks like now). Several interventions had

been done and maybe one of those is with use of DE. I cannot make conclusions

yet, but as of now, I could state that it is doing "wonders" to our goats. It is

has done its job so far as expected.

Several issues might be brought up:

1. Is it safe for pregnant goats? We feed them to our pregnant goats. We had one

abortion out of ten but cannot totally claim that it is because of DE. The ten

pregnant goats are in one big pen that a factor of bullying might be the cause.

The other pregnant does either gave birth already(no birth defects so far

noticed) and the rest are on their late pregnancy.It is too early for us to make

conclusions at this time.

2. How safe it is for kids? We fed them to our weaned kids. That will be 3

months and above. We have tried using DE in some of our 2 month old kids.and

have not encountered any serious side effect.

This is our farms experience. As I said it is still too early for us to make

conclusions but as of this moment we are satisfied with it and it worked as

expected. This claims of ours might be validated by other farms experiences. And

in 24 months, i.e 8 cycles of DE use and increase the number of

goats(population) included(enrolled) in the "DE intervention/ prevention

Program", then we could make conclusions and recommendations with its use in

terms of: frequency, dosaging and other parameters that will make the

study/experience sound and credible.

I'm open for suggestions, corrections, criticisms, etc. If there is a standard

protocol regarding DE's use for small ruminants, please share.

Boying