1. 长跑

在“马拉松”开始之前，我最关心的问题之一是汉斯 · 乌尔里

希 · 奥布里斯特(Hans Ulrich Obrist，以下简称“小汉斯”)的体能状

态，当他明确地告诉我他感觉很好的时候，我对马拉松有了信心。

我的朋友当中鲜有真正跑过马拉松的，即使跑过，我想要

当事人把身体的那种极限感觉丝丝入扣地传达给别人，几乎也

是不可能的事情，但如果能了解在跑的过程中究竟跑者的心里

在想什么，恐怕也是一件很有意思的事情。

这个题为“电力城市——后奥林匹克北京迷你马拉松” ，

从2008年12月31号的下午2点开始，一直到2009年1月1号的4点结

束，在这十四个小时的过程中，从最初的起跑、过程中聚散无定

的观众到曲终人散，本身就有着潮涨潮落般的节奏和无数倏忽即

逝的思想浪花，而我们，所有参与马拉松的人们，不仅要随着这

些思想的长跑者渐行渐远，也幻想着让倏忽即逝的思想火花尽量

定格显影，不仅点燃各自前行的道路，也为后继者铺路。

如马拉松运动所昭示的，在这个过程中，我们不仅需要良

好的体能，也需要在心中有一个激励自己跑到最后的信念。

思想在今天，也许更应该是一种长跑。

如里尔克所言：“有何胜利可言，挺住就意味着一切。”

2. 听 · 说

有关“访谈”在西方艺术史中的起源和演变，德国学者

Michael Diers在其名为《“无限对话”或访谈作为一种艺术形式

(“In�nite Conversation” Or the Interview as an Art Form》)一文中有

过详述，该文是他为小汉斯《访谈录1》而撰写的前言，Michael

Diers指出了小汉斯的访谈形成于一种非同寻常的、个人化的

形态，有别于记者型的和学者型的访谈，他的访谈勿宁是从一

种百科全书式的哲学观发展而来，不仅使得对话成为极其生动

和富有成效的思想交流，也使得他的访谈更注重偶发和随机，

而很少在计划中进行，也许正因为如此，我猜测小汉斯更敏感

于“话语背后的沉默性”，在他写给艺术家汉斯·彼得·福尔德

曼(Hans Peter Feldmann)的电邮中，他引用了他曾访谈过的哲学

家汉斯·格奥尔格·伽达默尔(Hans –Georg Gadamer)的一句话来表

达他的思考：“伽达默尔跟我说过，访谈的一个很大的问题是

无法转录沉默。”

而我猜想中国禅对“不立文字”的标榜，在很大程度上是

对“有语”和“无语”、“可说的”和“不可说之物”之间关

系的洞见，也和小汉斯关注的问题有关，它提醒我们：艺术如

果不得不说，这种言说也必然是关于“如何去说”的摸索和如

“迷你马拉松”，小汉斯晃点我们了吗？

1. Long-Distance RunningBefore “Marathon” started, what I was most concerned about was Hans Ulrich Obrist’s(hereinafter referred to shortly as “Little Hans”) physical condition. But when he definitely told me that he was feeling well, I began confident in “Marathon”.Few of my friends had ever participated in “Marathon” in a strict sense. Even if some had, the runners can hardly convey the original extreme feeling of body with meticulous care, for it is almost an impossible thing. However, it is also interesting to know the psychological situation of the runner in the course of the event. Titled as “Electric Power City—Post-Olympic Beijing Mini Marathon”, it lasted from 2:00 p.m. 31st December 2008 to 4:00 a.m. 1st January 2009. This “Marathon” itself was embedded with the rhythm of up and down and endless flashing sparkles of pondering in the 14 hours from the starting line, the running course to the finishing line. While we, all the participants, were supposed to not only follow these pondering runners, but also imagine that those sparkles of pondering can be preserved as much as possible, so that it can not only lighten each other’s way, but also pave the way for successors. As the Marathon revealed, besides good physical condition, we also need faith to motivate and encourage ourselves to run towards the finishing line. Today, thought may be more regarded as a kind of long-distance running.Just as Rilke said: “ Who speaks of victory? Enduring is everything”. 2. Listening. SpeakingAs for the origin and evolvement of “ interview” in western art history, Michael Diers elaborated clearly in his article “ ‘Infinite Conversation’ Or the Interview as an Art Form”, the preface for Interview Record I by Little Hans, pointed out that Little Hans’s interview was masterminded from a unique and personal modality; different from journalistic and scholar interview, his interview was more developed from an encyclopedia-like philosophical view, which not only changed the dialogue into vivid and effective communication, but also made his interview more focused on abiogenesis and randomness. Maybe just because of the above, I guess Little Hans is more sensitive on “silence behind discourse”, in the email he wrote to the artist Hans Peter Feldmann, he quoted one sentence from interviewer, the philosopher Hans Georg Gadamer, to express his pondering: “Gadamer had told me, one big problem for interview lies in that it cannot transcribe silence.”While I guess Chinese Zen’s advocating “language independent”, to a large extent, serves as an insight towards the relationship between “words” and “silence”, “speakable” and “unspeakable” things; it relates to what Little Hans concerns and reminds us that on the one hand, if art had to be spoken out, such words aren’t necessarily about the exploration of “how to speak” and the experiment of how to develop the “unspeakable” into interpersonal understanding; on the another hand, Chinese classical philosophy and literary theory’s emphasis on “oral” materials (from Analects of Confucius to Shi

”Mini Marathon”, Did Hans Ulrich Obrist fool us around?The Whole Picture of “Beijing Mini Marathon”

Shuo Hsin Yu, to story-telling novels), also presents a profound understanding of the “necessity” and “dialogue” quality of “discourse” from Chinese perspective, that is, discourse faces directly the world in specific time and space and its essential value lies in its “absence”, which is the important approach to update thinking. The program “Interview Marathon” hosted by Little Hans is about more than catching the ‘absence” of discourse, because it adds rather intense time to the process of dialogue, so as to create a modality in realism for the dialogue—besides the tangible part, the intangible “field” also exists, thus it can mobilize consciousness to flow in the interaction between “speaking” and “listening”. In this arena, what is most treasurable not only refers to revealing the elaboration related to art activity, but also refers to the cultural influence at the subconscious level, personal image and oblivious history. When the exploration of these conscious activities achieve certain width and depth in a period, a kind of “Meridian” and “Acupoint” about culture begins to emerge much more in a whole, and the route of “ Marathon” starts to be clear. In Little Hans’ interview, the relationship between “listening” and “speaking” is not affiliation, but interdependence just like that between “Yin” and “Yang”. As a means of cultural criticism to approach the personal creation, Little Hans’ interview is equipped with not only the common problems—as his personal research subject, which is always associated with the immense knowledge about art history and experience from interviewing with numerous outstanding originators stored in his brain; but also very random problems, directly derived from the dialogue—these problems have no premonition, no prejudice, and all of them are “direct and live”, thus inspiring the interviewees’ “words” and exploring some subjects which are never mentioned before. While fundamentally, I think, this huge flow of “Listening” and “Speaking”, more confirms the relationship between “Mouth” and “Heart”. The processes of these dialogues not only provide the clues of personal inditing, but also unfolds according to the meaning of “behavior”; it surpasses the range of knowledge and moves forward to “revision”—talkers have intentions, and listeners have minds; we prove, educate and cultivate together, from this point, the “Listening” and “Speaking” of “Marathon” not only link to the interviewee and interviewer, but also link to all the participants, which constitute a public “flowing event”.

3. Theater From interviewer to interviewee, interviewer to audience, present audience to non-present people, “Marathon” at the very beginning emerges necessarily as a public event, which convokes individuals, shows overlapping of individual consciousness and creates theatre in a certain time and calls for personal expression.The behaviorism of “Marathon” itself makes it more like theater consisted of dialogues. What differentiates it is the performance of the “drama of thinking”(let us think about the “thinking poetics” tradition from Socrates, Zhuangzi, Diderot to Dostoevsky), over

汉斯 . 尤而里奇 . 奥布里斯特

Hans ulrich Obrist

(苏黎世人，1968年出生)，艺术策

展人。现居住在英国伦敦。在二十

世纪九十年代策划过一些非常著名

的展览(比如，“Do it”, “Cities on

the Move”,等等)，自1993年以来是

Migrateurs al Musée d’Art Moderne

de la Ville de巴黎展览计划的策展

人。他曾经出版过《采访》—— 一

个与当代文化领军人物的对话集。

他也曾出版过有关塞卓克·普莱斯和

杰勒德·里希特的书籍。他还是伦敦

蛇形画廊国际项目的联合总监。

(Zurich, 1968), art curator. He lives in London, United Kingdom.As well as creating some of the most important exhibitions during the 1990s (“Do it”, “Cities on the Move”, etc ...), he curated the Migrateurs al Musée d’Art Moderne de la Ville de Paris exhibition program-me since 1993. He has published “Interviews”, a collection of conversations with dozens of leading exponents of modern-day culture. He has also published books on Cedric Price and Gerard Richter. He is co-director of international projects at the Serpentine Gallery in London.

(1) “北京迷你马拉松”始末 文 胡昉 / text by Hu Fang

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城市文化

city culture

沙龙

何让“不可说的”进入到人际理解的实验；另一方面，中国古

典哲学和文论中对于“口传 ”素材的重视（从《论语》到《

世说新语》到话本小说），也从中国情境对“言说”的“必要

性”和 “对话”性质提供了深刻的认识， 即言说直接面对的

是具体时空和情境下的世界，它的重要价值在于它的“在场”

性， 而这正是让思想保鲜的重要方式。

小汉斯主持的“访谈马拉松”，不仅是去捕捉言说的“在

场”性，同时，因为将一个相当强度的时间过程加入到对话

过程中，为对话创造了一种现实中的形态——既有有形的部

分，也有无形的“场”， 从而调动意识在“说”(言说，诉

说)与“听”(去听，倾听)的乒乓中展开特别的流动，在这种

流动中，最可贵的不仅仅在于让和艺术活动相关的阐述浮现

出来，而更在于涉及到潜意识层面的文化影响、个人意象和

被遗忘的历史。当这些意识活动的探索在一个时间段达到一

定的广度和深度时，一种关于文化的“经脉”和“穴位”就

开始更为整体地隐现，“马拉松”的路径开始清晰 。

“听”与“说”之间的关系在小汉斯引导的访谈中，不是从

属关系，而是“阴”和“阳”的关系，是彼此互生的关系。小汉

斯的访谈作为一种深入个体创作的文化批评的方式，既有他对访

谈者的普遍性问题——这些问题作为他个人的研究话题，总是和

他头脑中储备的巨大的艺术史知识和无数杰出创作者对话的经验

联系在一起；也有非常随机的、直接从对话过程中即兴生发出来

的问题——这些问题“无前设性”、“无成见性”，是“在场的

直观性提问”，由此不仅激发出访谈者的“说”，并由此根据个

体不同的情况即时探索以前从未被触及的话题。

而根本性的，我想，这个庞大的“听”与“说”之流，更印

证的是“口”与“心”的关系，即这些对话的过程不仅在提供理

解个体创作的线索，更是向着“行为”的意义展开的，它超越了

知识的范围，而向着“修证”迈进——谈者有心，听者有意，大家

共同佐证、教育、修行，从这点来说，马拉松的“听”与“说”不

仅是和访谈人和被访谈者有关，它也和参与马拉松的所有的人有

关，它构成的是一个公共的“流动性事件”。

3. 剧场

从访谈者到被访谈者，从访谈者到听众，从在场的听众到

不在场的更多的人，“马拉松”一开始就必然是一个公共性的

事件，它召集的是个体们，显影的是这些个体意识的叠影 ；它

在某个时间点上创造了剧场，呼唤个人的表达。

“马拉松”本身的行为性使得它更像是一个由对话构成的

剧场，只不过，在那儿上演的是“思想的戏剧”（让我们想想

从苏格拉底、庄子、狄德罗到陀斯妥耶夫斯基的“思想诗学”

传统）， 那儿，听众们随着思想跌宕起伏，从若有所思到有所

行动，恰恰是内心表白造就了这个剧场内外的能量运动。

和所有的戏剧表演不同，“马拉松”是没有剧本的“演

出”，或者说，剧本就在每个参与者的心中，由此，它是无法

预知结果的演出，就像任何一个优秀的马拉松运动员都只能在

比赛结束之后才能知道自己跑得如何一样，这儿，现实的不确

定因素永远占据了上风，也使得马拉松更具有“现实性”，从

而使之成为一种“现实戏剧”。

从2006年7月小汉斯携手荷兰建筑师库哈斯(Rem Koolhaas)

there. Audiences go ups and down along with the thinking, change from fanciers into doers, and it is the interior confession that achieves the energy movement inside and outside the theater. Unlike dramatic performances, “Marathon” is performed without a script, for, the script in the heart of every participant. Therefore, it is an unpredictable performance, just like any excellent Marathon runners can only know the result after the match. Here the realistic uncertain factors are ever present, making Marathon more realistic and becoming a kind of “realistic drama”.Started from July 2006, when Little Hans cooperated with Holland architect Rem Koolhaas and held “Serpentine Marathon” in the Summer Pavilion of London serpentine gallery, “Marathon” not only developed different subjects—from “Scientific Marathon” (2007, cooperated with artist Olafur Eliassong) to “Declaration Marathon” (2008), but also came to different cities and different spaces; every “Marathon” differed according to different situations, thus establishing different “realistic quality”.In Beijing, “Marathon” took place in “This Shop”, which was founded by Independent Art Space Vitamin. “This Shop” attempts to get through and syncretize the space limit separated from social/artistic system, aims at inspiring the organic relationship between artistic creation and daily life and the public, and exploring a new mode of public space. “This Shop” practiced this “Beijing Mini- Marathon” as a public event, interacting with different communities in Beijing via network media and bringing city and personal living space into dialogue; correspondingly, the interviewees invited by Beijing “Marathon” ranged widely from artists, writers, directors, architects and media workers and businessmen. Besides, it included in a discussion presided by Jiang Jun, the chief editor of magazine City China; Sound art performance by Yan Jun and improvisational writing by the Yangjiang Group of the contemporary calligraphy group. While Beijing, a city which faces the challenge of the global financial crisis after attracting worldwide attention during the 2008 Olympics, is becoming a world wonder for its fast changes. This city itself is a unique environment to display the imagination of “Post-Olympic”; although this era is rather noisy, we have reason to believe that thinking can be a clue for placidity. This “Marathon” in Beijing, together with this book of “Marathon”,

is rightly born between “unfinished” and “finished”, a book of “calmness” born out of “tumult”, a city secret map which can be read repeatedly and always discoverable, a “drama of thinking” prepared for a second departure.

4. An Open MindBack to the problem at the very start: what will one think about when he takes long-distance running alone?Murakami Haruki’s latest book What I Talk about When It Refers to Running, elaborates his serendipity with long-distance running and marathon. When refers to what he thinks about when he runs, he said: “ I run, I am just running. In principle, I am running in a blank. May be I run for gaining the blank. Even though in this blank, sometimes thinking insinuate into my mind, this thinking which insinuate into my interior spirit, or say idea, is no more than the appurtenant of the blank. They are not content, they are just gradually developed thought based on the blank.”On certain point-in-time of “Marathon”(for example, 10:00 at the night or the moment of finishing), maybe because of temporary malajustment of physical condition, or because of striking and hovering by too much words, I felt a kind of blank, although it was fleeting, such blankness suddenly equipped me with a stimulation of “ignorance”(whether it is what the Buddhist said: “ignorance” because of “hollowing the heart”?), it seems that the world is open thoroughly because of these thoughts surging forward in the flow of time. Now think about this, maybe it is reasonable for such kinds of feeling in reality: if dialogue presents so much parallel reality, then a sort of “objective trueness” may emerge from this crossover, this wider world over personal horizon.She never says turkey to one and bazzard to another; she just let it be, without an end, and make people keep an open mind.She would help the persistent runners to build up the body.If Little Hans’ tag “sleep is bad for your health” is beneficial, then consider your physical strength, maybe we should start another “Marathon”.

在伦敦蛇形画廊夏宫举办了题为“Serpentine Marathon”(蛇形马

拉松)的活动开始，不仅“马拉松”发展了不同的主题——从“

科学马拉松”(2007，和艺术家Olafur Eliassong一起发起和主持)

到“宣言马拉松”(2008)，也发生在很多不同的城市的不同空

间；每次“马拉松”因应的情境不同，它所建构的“现实性”

也会完全不一样。

在北京，它发生在由独立艺术空间“维他命”开设的“这

个店”中，“这个店”是以“店”的形式打通和融合在社会/

艺术系统中被割裂开来的空间界限，着力于激发艺术创作与

日常生活以及公众的有机关系，探索一种新的公共空间的模

式。“这个店”将此次“北京迷你马拉松”实验为一次通过

网络媒体和北京不同社群互动, 并将城市和个人生存空间带入

到对话的公共性事件；相应的，北京“马拉松”邀请的访谈

者广泛地涵盖了从艺术家、作家、导演、建筑师到媒体工作

者、商人，并特别导入了由《城市中国》主编姜 主持的集

体讨论，颜峻的声音艺术表演和当代书法小组阳江组的现场

创作。而北京，这个在盛大的全球瞩目的奥林匹克之后又面

临全球金融危机挑战的城市，它的快速变化使得它正成为一

个世界的奇观，其本身提供了独特的情境去展开“后奥林匹

克”的想象，尽管这个时代本身是非常嘈杂的，但我们相信

思想能够牵引出平静 。

发生在北京的这个“马拉松”，和这本“马拉松”之书正

是诞生于“未”和“完成”之间，是一本从“骚动”中脱胎出

来的“冷静”之书，是一本可以反复查看、始终有所发现的城

市秘密地图和为再次出发而准备的“思想剧本”。

4. 虚心

回到一开始的问题：独自一人长跑时，会想些什么？

村上春树最近一本书题为《当我谈跑步时，我谈些什么》，

谈的就是他和长跑以及马拉松的缘份，其中涉及到在跑步时思考

什么的问题，他是这么说的：“我跑步，只是跑着。原则上是在

空白中跑步。也许是为了获得空白而跑步。即便在这样的空白当

中，也有片时片刻的思绪潜入……潜入奔跑着的我精神内部的这

些思绪，或说念头，无非空白的从属物。它们不是内容，只是以

空白为基轴，渐起渐涨的思绪。”

在“马拉松”的某几个时间点(例如，晚上10点或将要结

束的那刻）， 也许是体能的暂时失调，也许是过多话语的冲

击萦绕，我曾突然感觉到一阵空白，虽然它稍纵即逝，但这种

空白让我突然有一种“无知”的快感(是否就是禅师僧肇所讲

的因“虚其心”而“无知”？)，似乎世界因奔腾在时间之流

中的这些思想而全然开放，没有隔阂。

现在想想，也许这种感觉从现实中也有原因可循的：如果

说，对话显现了如此众多的平行的现实，那么，一种“客观的

真实”也许就会在这种交叉中、这种跃出个人地平线的更广阔

的世界中隐现出来。

她不厚此薄彼，任其生长，无穷无尽，让人虚心。

她会让坚持跑步的人增强体质。

如果小汉斯的口头禅“睡觉是有害的”是有益的话，那么，

掂量掂量自己的体力，也许我们还应该再次 “马拉松” 。

胡 / Hu Fang

(中国，1970年出生)1992年毕业于

武汉大学中文系。维他命艺术空间

(Vitamin Creative Space)的创建者之

一。其小说、艺术/文化评论发表在

国内外多种艺术/建筑/文学杂志上，

并在中国和国际情境中广泛实践他

的艺术策划。他曾受邀为第12届卡塞

尔文件展杂志(document 12 magazines)

工作。2007年里昂双年展的艺术家

提名人之一以及2008年横滨三年展

的策划组成员。

(China, 1970). Graduated from Chi-nese Literature Department of Wuhan University in 1992. He is one of the founders of Vitamin Creative Space. As a novelist and essayist, his works are published on various magazines related to art, architecture and literature. He also fulfills his art curation in different domestic and aboard circumstances. He is coordinating editor of documenta 12 magazines, a “player” of Lyon Biennial 2007, as well as the member of the curatorial team of Yokohama Triennale 2008.

140 008 141008

AbitARe： 马拉松如何成形？

汉斯： 2005年在德国的一个戏剧节中，已故的 Mary Zimmerman

女士(还有Christine Peter)邀请我做个和戏剧有关的项目。我从

没做过相关策划但很感兴趣，还感觉和建筑有些相似，尤其在

完全陌生的领域或环境里做事有时能解放和刺激大脑，我又想

到我时时和艺术家的采访可以像脱口秀一样放到台上(我有不

少朋友和我说过我应该主持一个电视脱口秀)。于是我决定超

越底线，做24小时不间断的采访。

2006年在伦敦蛇形画廊举办采访马拉松时很戏剧化，又挺有诗

意：在公园里，有小昆虫打扰，晚上了也不必点灯，就像一场

露天音乐会。其实注入活力只要改变游戏规则，力行新准则。

我在伦敦的经历里最重要一点在于我得以融合越界的各个领

域。大家参与也各有理由：有人前来瞻仰艺术家和建筑师；有

人只是因为不知其它去处而来，不去酒吧总要去个什么地方；

有人怀着探奇之心来。

Rem Koolhaas 说一幢大楼也同时应该是制造内容的机器，这恐

怕在他的CCTV身上展现，也和采访马拉松的主旨一致。 (当年

的采访马拉松由Rem Koolhaas与Hans Ulrich Obrist共同主持)

AbitARe：刚刚去世的文坛大师 John Updike 说采访是“一种令人

(2) 采访的平方 interview on interview

AbitARe: How did the marathon come about?

Hans: In 2005 at a theater festival in Germany, the late Mary Zimmerman and also Christine Peter invited me to come up with something related to the theater. I said I had never really curated in the theater context, but it’s always been interesting to me. I suppose it’s a little bit like architecture. When one gets these invitations to do things one has never done, in a typology or a context one has never worked, it sometimes can be incredibly liberating or stimulating. To some extent my conversations that I do with artists all the time, they could be staged and it could become like a talk show. A lot of my friends were always saying it would be good to have a talk show on TV. I thought it could be interesting to make it more transgressive, so I thought maybe we could do it for 24 hours, non-stop. At the Serpentine in London, where it started in 2006, it became a slightly dramatic situation, a theatrical situation, but it’s also very beautiful, in the sense that you’re in the park, you have insects, and even when it gets dark you don’t need to bring in light. It’s really like an open air concert. And to some extent it just has to do with the fact of changing the rules of the game, setting up new rules, injecting new energy. One of the things that it so important about my experience in London is the possibility to bring together different disciplines and fields. Some people came because they wanted to listen to an artist or some came to hear an architect. Some people came because they just didn’t know where to spend their night. They needed to hang out somewhere instead of going to the club. Some came for an adventure. There are all kinds of reasons

憎恶的形式，蛆虫般的伪形式”，采访之于你为什么这么重要？

汉斯：某种程度上讲，David Sulvester对Francis Bacon，或Jerome

Secker对Picasso的采访真正让我对艺术感兴趣，他们是灵感的

导火索，我希望我的书能或多或少建立起David Sulvester之于我

的影响。我的采访都是现实的作品，呈现在书籍、展览和建筑

中，它们建立起自己的社区，甚至在未来是新的城市，是非常

务实的。

比如我几年前见到迷幻剂的发明者Albert Hofmann，已经百岁的

他在一张餐巾纸上给我写下迷幻剂的化学方程，这触发了我的

灵感，我请了一百名艺术家写下自己的方程式结集成书，已经

在2007年出版。(ABITARE意大利主刊2009年1月有报道)

AbitARe：为什么要14或24小时？

汉斯：时间范围有不同的划分可能。我们所处的全球化时代对

艺术和建筑也有同质化影响，并且不仅在地域层面，还在时间

层面。所以我们的时间模式越来越同质化。采访马拉松一定要

持续很长时间，这对我个人来说有十几岁时记忆的影响：我那

时会去看比利时剧场导演Jan Fabre的戏，戏永远没完没了。我

们去了剧院，又出来晚餐，喝上几杯，然后再回去看戏。我在

that people will come. Rem has said that a building should also be a content machine, which is something that happens again with the CCTV building, and it’s not unlike the marathon.

AbitARe: The just-deceased John Updike called interviews “a form to be loathed; a half-form like maggots.” How did the interview become so important to you?

Hans: I think to some extent, it was interviews David Sylvester did with Francis Bacon, or Brassaldid with Picasso, that really pushed me to get into art. They were like triggers. My interviews are productions of reality, they produce books, exhibitions, buildings, it produces community and hopefully one day, new cities. It’s very pragmatic. When I spoke with Albert Hofmann, the inventor of LSD, who was 100 years old, he drew on a napkin formula of LSD. That then gave me the idea to do a book of a hundred formulas by artists which came out in 2007 (see ABITARE 2009).

AbitARe: Why the timeframe of 14 or 24 hours?

Hans: There are different kinds of timeframes. We live in a context where as globalization fosters homogenization, it is true also in the field of art and architecture, and it is not only spatial but also temporal, which means you have more and more homogenized formats of time. But I think it’s interesting to resist that homogenization of time and introduce

文 由宓 / text by Umi

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different formats. The interview marathon doesn’t have to be 24 hours, but it definitely has to be a longer stretch of time. For me it really has something to do with my memory of adolescence. I remember going to theater plays of the Belgian director Jan Fabre and they went on forever. We would go to his theater, and sometimes go out for dinner and drink and later come back, and I would meet a lot of people in the bar and then later in the theater again. Ultimately I would say that this creates a community, some sort of forum, and maybe what happens around the event is as important as the event itself. Therefore I felt that it might be interesting to apply it in my practice. It creates a different structure of conversation, a more multi-layered conversation, another layer of conversation, maybe a more multi-dimensional conversation. I think David Deutsch in The Fabric of Reality talks about many different dimensions of reality, and that’s what we’re really trying to achieve.

AbitARe: Like a curator of an exhibition, do you consider yourself a director within the marathon?

Hans: I think it’s less that because in a way, it has a lot to do with self-organization. It’s a quite open system, not like directing a play. Of course it grew out of a theater context. Chance plays a very important role. It is not only the time obsession I share with John Cage, but it’s also the idea of having a system that allows for chance to happen. And I always have some questions which are recurrent and part of my obsessions, such as unrealized projects, utopias, how one connects to the other, and the future. I was reading an article about Craig Venter this morning, and Venter was describing how at the beginning, when a scientist does research and collects information, he doesn’t really know what the unifying principles are to explain what he’s witnessing. That’s a very interesting remark that describes how I work.

酒吧里见到一些人后来在剧场也碰见了，所以我认为以此形成

的社区，一种集会，与此时发生的活动同样重要。我便把这付

诸于实践。结果一种新的谈话结构产生了，是多层的、新一层

的 、多维度的谈话。就像David Deutsch在�e Fabric of Reality一书

里形容到现实的多维度性，我也希望在对谈中达到此。

AbitARe：若以策展人思维广之，你会把自己放在导演的位置么？

汉斯：我想不尽然，因为采访马拉松更是自我组织的过程，而

且是个开放的系统，虽然它来自剧场语境。机会也占有重要地

位，我和John Cage(20世纪著名实验音乐家，演奏时以《易经》

为辅助作曲)不仅仅在对时间着迷上相似，而尤其关注如何建立

一个促成偶发事件的机制。我也有我常问的问题——关于未完

成的项目，乌托邦，联系与未来。

我今天早上在读关于Craig Venter的文章，他讲道科学家做实验、

收集资料，开始时并不知道用什么原理解释观察到的东西。这

恰好是我工作的方式。

AbitARe：你的策展工作和采访马拉松定有互相影响，在这些

活动中如何处理与公众的关系？

汉斯：策展是搭桥的工作，而且不能简单说成是艺术与大众之

间的桥梁，否则是断然肯定有一种公众。公众是多样的，所以

策展人的工作是多方向搭桥。

AbitARe: Clearly your curatorial work impacts your interview marathons, and vice versa, but in these and other pursuits, how do you seek connections with the public?

Hans: Curating is about building bridges, and I wouldn’t say it’s between art and the public because that would be to assume there’s such a thing as a public. There are many publics. So a curator builds many bridges, he throws “passerelle” into many directions. The question is always how we can bring in visitors in the marathon, that depends on each different locale. I’m always in the marathon talking to a lot of people, and then during that twelve to 24 hours many other conversations are happening. We realized when we led the first marathon in Stuttgart, there were all kinds of events, dinners, salons happening around town which we couldn’t attend. In this sense, one can say it’s a polyphony of conversations, and the marathon is the trigger. It produces community and hopefully new encounters for people who otherwise wouldn’t meet each other.DO IT (http://www.e-flux.com/projects/do_it/homepage/do_it_home.html) is another form of participation. We always have to be careful with participation to not assume what people are going to do. That’s the limit of participatory art. When we look at the people on the street, it’s very unpredictable what people do and how they move. How do we develop models of participation, that’s something people like Yona Friedman and Cedric Price have beautifully pioneered, that’s why I’ve always learned a lot from urbanism, for my practice as a curator. So DO IT is a participatory exhibition, it can happen on the internet, in the book, in museum space, it can happen physically and virtually. But it’s just one possibility.

AbitARe: And once in a city, how do you choose the location -- and how does the location affect you?

在马拉松中如何让观众参与和特定发生地点有关。我总在谈话

的中心，而在这十几到二十四小时里四周发生了更多对话,正构

成了一种马拉松而触发的复调协奏。让更多的人得以相遇，找

到自己的社区。

DO IT(一本由近二百名艺术家分别写出的如何“做”艺术的计

划书，或者叫使用手册，指导普通大众“做”艺术。以展览和

书籍形式并在网络上存在，中文版《做》已出版http://www.e-

�ux.com/projects/do_it/homepage/do_it_home.html)代表另一种参

与。我们不应该假想观众/读者会做什么，参与性艺术的底线

到此。看街上来往的人，我们怎么能预测他们去哪里，怎么

去。Yona Friedman和Cedric Price等就如何建立参与模式早有令人

感动的探索，我的策展也从城市规划学中获益非浅。DO IT是一

个参与性展览，可以借助网络、书籍、博物馆等载体真实地或

虚拟地发生。但也不过是一种可能。

AbitARe：身在一座城市中，你如何选择事件发生地，这地方

又如何影响你？

汉斯：07年圣诞我们在开罗办了类似活动，就在一个开放的市

政厅，人们不时从大街上逛过来；这次在北京又在建外Soho的

�e Shop：所以一定是某个特定的社区。我会倾听一个地方，

感受一个城市，到达、降落、与她连接，而不只是中转。

AbitARe：在短时间停留中真的能感受、“映像”一个城市么？

144 008 145008

Hans: Last Christmas [a year ago], we did it in Cairo and that happened in an open town house and people came in from the street. Here it happens at [Jianwai] Soho. So it always happens in some specific neighborhood. I go to a place and listen to a place, getting the feel for a city, so from that point of view it’s a way of arriving, landing, connecting to a city, not transiting.

AbitARe: But can you really get a feel for a city, do your “mapping of the city,” in such brief visits?

Hans: It would be a great pretense to think we can make a portrait of a city in one night. These things are fragments. I’ve come to Beijing many times in the past since ‘96. We (with Hu Fang) recorded many interviews one night in 2007, and now we are doing it as a mini-marathon, and we are planning a big marathon with Rem Koolhaas and Ou Ning. It’s very much a work-in-progress. We cannot simply grab the whole city, draft the portrait of the city, because the city is far too complex. Even after coming to China 30 already, I am still just starting to understand it. For me, my whole relationship to China is a marathon where there are still many trips to come.

AbitARe: What is your impression of exhibitions and museum spaces in China?

Hans: Obviously there has been a lot of built hardware: there are a lot of spaces open in China now. The question is what is going to happen now in these spaces? In this post-Olympic moment, what’s going to be the content of these spaces, who’s going to program them, and what is the curator’s role in China. It’s not only about bringing in exhibitions from outside but also how are they going to be generated from inside, from here. In China, where art was often shown at home, there is not necessarily a tradition for museums. That lack of tradition offers an opportunity to invent museums of a different type and not just to copy museums in the West. I think there’s a great opportunity in the next few years to see how new forms of museums and new content production

汉斯：声明一晚就能为一个城市画像一定是伪善的。所有的不

过是碎片。自1996年，我来北京多次，我们2007年也用一晚记

录了好多采访，现在是迷你采访马拉松，而将来我们还计划与

Rem Koolhaas和欧宁组织大马拉松，这总是进行中的。我们不

可能轻易攫住一个城市，她太复杂了。即使在我三十次到访中

国后，我也才开始了解她。我和中国的关系就是马拉松式的，

还有很多站呢。

AbitARe：你对中国展览和博物馆空间印象如何？

汉斯：显然硬件已经得以加强，各类空间丰富，目前的问题

是这些空间能做些什么。在后奥运时代，它们接纳什么样的内

容，谁来策划，在中国策展人的角色是什么，不光把国外的展

览带进中国，还要自己生产内容。艺术曾经在放在艺术家家里

展示，说明中国并没有博物馆的传统，但也是再创造博物馆的

契机，不必照抄西方范例。

我很期待接下来的几年中看到新形式的博物馆和内容创造机制

在中国发展。互联网也是21世纪的博物馆，艾未未的博客是同

样重要的空间，我们都不可以小视。

AbitARe：你认为未来中国会面对一些什么议题？

汉斯：记忆是最紧要的。不是说静止的记忆，而是发展的、动

态的记忆。自由。城市和乡村的关系——是像Rem Koolhaas所

说，乡村是城市的未来么？还有动态循环这个概念，比如我们

刚才谈到的互动参与的这个循环，以及我们如何描绘这些系统

中的关系。我对21世纪“新地图”很感兴趣，如何绘制新的地

图，我会用书和展览的形式探讨它的可能性。

过去几年，由资本市场带来的利己思维很强势，现在更应该重新

can happen here. The internet is also a museum for the 21st century. We shouldn’t underestimate the importance of it. Ai Weiwei’s blog is an important space, as important as any “hardware” museum.

AbitARe: What large questions linger about China for you?

Hans: Memory is the urgent matter for China. Memory not in a static way, but in a dynamic and progressive way, in a dynamic way. Freedom. The relationship of the city and the countryside. Is the future, as Rem Koolhass puts it, the countryside? The idea also of dynamic loops, which leads back to your question of interaction and dynamic systems and how we can actually map such dynamic systems. I’m very interested in new maps for the 21st century, how we can develop such maps, and I will investigate that with a book and an exhibition. Particularly over the last years, the idea of only thinking about oneself in relation to capitalism has been such a strong focus, and I think you are living at a time now when it’s interesting to think again what could be the social contract of architecture and art. It is something Immanuel Wallerstein in Utopistics addresses very beautifully, and something we try to address in Utopia Station with Molly Nesbit (http://www.e-flux.com/projects/utopia/). The whole question of the social contract of art will be back.

AbitARe: The Utopian instinct is often tied up with a kind of optimism, isn’t knowledge and logic optimism, as Nietzsche puts it?

Hans: Optimism to some degree has to do with knowledge, and with knowledge production. And that’s what all our projects are about: they are all about finding new ways of knowledge production. But it is also important to inject doubts. To some extent, we only know so little, our knowledge is so limited to be aware of that. I grew up in a monastery city in Switzerland where all the knowledge is stored in books. And I always believed that cities are like monasteries, repositories of knowledge. And yet at our time it is no longer possible to know everything, and the desire to want to know everything, knowing that it’s impossible, creates an interesting tension.

审视建筑和艺术的社会责任。Immanuel Wallerstein在他的Utopistics

一书中有很好的论述，我也在与Molly Nesbit合作的Utopia Sta-

tion(第50届威尼斯双年展Utopia Station的空间里充斥近二百名艺

术家、建筑师关于‘乌托邦’的小模型、海报和摄影作品等等，

现场也有音乐家、舞者等用声音和形体自我表达；Utopia Station

本身亦成为大家相遇交流的地点 h�p://www.e-�ux.com/projects/uto-

pia/)项目中有所涉及。艺术的社会责任讨论会重来。

AbitARe：乌托邦的直觉似乎和乐观主义有联系，但知识和逻

辑本身，如尼采所说，不就是乐观主义么？

汉斯：从某种意义上乐观主义与知识有关，与知识的生产有

关。我们的项目都统一于此：它们都以各种新方式生产知识。

不过同样重要的是质疑的注入。我们所知有限，那知识还不够

意识到这一点。我在一个瑞士的修道院城市长大，所有的知识

都封存在书里。可是我们在这个时代中已经不可能了解一切，

这与企图了解一切的欲望形成巨大张力。

146 008 147008

马拉松地图

Marathon map

斯图加特，北京，卡塞尔，迪拜，开罗，伦敦，伦敦，伦敦，柏林两次；将

来可能有德里，洛杉矶，莫斯科，德黑兰，伊斯坦布尔……

Stuttgart, Beijing, Kassel, Dubai, Cairo, London, London, London, London, Berlin for twice and soon we might have, Delhi, LA, Moscow, Tehran, Istanbul…