height studies of tramps

7/27/2019 Height Studies of Tramps

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A ~ e a f B ~ M ~ n l - - ~ ~ ~ : : m i - t ; : - ; ~ : n lTo Testify at

Shaw's·T rialSITPHES GREES

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REPRODUCED AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES

Hay 2. 1975 [Phone: 456-2761]

flouorablo Harold R. Tyler. J r .

Deputy Attomoy Golleral

DepU'USDt of Just iceWuhingtaa, n. c. 20530

Dear J.lr. tYler:

• • woulcl appreciate beiDa proYid8cl vitla a l l i.nforaatica 1a

the haacbl of the FBI relatin& to the "denllcts" lOUDcl iJlor near ni roa.cl can a d takeu into custo4y 1A Dallas.Texas. oa lfoftllber 22 . 1963. th e day of th e assas.siutic.of Prosidat lomaed,y. We haw alroad.y uatnec l the l 'hDto

p-aphs taken ol s o . of those dorellcu, ad th.y need DOt

be included 1n the illfol'JI&tioa supplled to us.

11th particular ntenaca to the th%M clenllcts vhosepbotoenphs haft rec:eiftd ccu idenb le att.eDUoo in tlMtpu t year, we a n uped.al ly iDterDsted iD l•an:dnl wherea d wbft they van t a k e lllto custody, whether any veapaaar . _ t t i cm w a ever fouacl ad associat.d vith thea, adC . detai ls concemiDa their . , . ._ .u .U iJaterro,atiOil

after they wen t.akell into custody. We voulcl also l ike to

mow whether tH y haf t ever beG idn t i f led .

.;

RBO/VIIr

a:: D. Belln

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REPRODUCED ATTHE NATIONAL A R ~ H I ~ E S .

. .._PPROIIED FOR REI £AS£ 19936 February 1965JCJA HISTORJCAt-ifVQ DDftn -

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD:

·'SUBJECT: SHANEYFELT,

Lyndal L.- #363001-1152

(Ser. 2)

REFERENCE: WASHINGTON STAR Clipping dated 25 January 1969

1. Subject, a former FBI agent and photo expert, has been subpoenaedby GARRISON as a witness a t th e Clay SHAW t r i a l in New Orleans.

2. Subject was granted continuing l iaison clearances in December 1954,

August 1962, April 1968 and August 1968 a t the requests of TSD. His serviceswere needed for coordinating technical ski l ls with respect to photocomparisons.

Att. Ref.

Sarah K. Hall

SRS/OS

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-- f< J ~ .REPRODUCED AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES.

c m . I ~ \ I S S I O N ON CIA ACTIVITIES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES

Washington, DC 20500

:..Jelson A. Rockefeller,0Jvid W. Belin,

Executive 01rector

J : ) r . ~ T. Connor

C. Oou!jia"> Dillon

Erwin t'·L Griswold

Lane Kirkland

LymJn L. Lemnitzer

Ronald Reagan

April 2, 1975 [Phone: 456-2767]

Edgar F. sr.annon, Jr.

Mr. James A. Nil(ierotterAssociate Deputy Attorney General

Department of JusticelOth &Constitution AvenueWashington, D. C. 20530

Dear Mr.' Wilderotter:

As you know, we have been checking on certain allegations thatthe CIA ~ ; a s a conspirator in the assassination of President

Kennedy. We have talked to Agent Shaneyfelt of the FBI andhave received a summary Bureau report on i t s investigation todate into such allegations. We now request certain additional

assistance from the Bureau as follows:

1. We enclose an addi tiona! 21 photographs of E. HO\;ard Hunt,reportedly taken during the period 1957-1966. In addition,1ve expect to be able to send to you very shortly additional

photographs of Frank Sturgis, taken in the early 1960's.We ~ ; o u l d like to have a thorough examination made to com-

pare these photos of Hunt and Sturgis th the photos whichthe Bureau already has on fi le and which were taken inDallas on November 22, 1963, as certain "derelicts" werebeing accompanied to the Dallas Police Department.

2. We have learned that E. Howard Htmt is approximately 5 feet9 inches t a l l , and that Frank Sturgis is approximately

5 feet 11 inches t a l l . We would l ike to have on-sitemeasurements and photographs taken at one or more of thescenes in Dallas shoHn on th e November 22, 1963, photos to

determine i f the persons shown in those photos are personsof heights similar or dissimilar to Hunt and Sturgis.

-526 (JFK ACT)

D ~ 1 ' F



REPRODUCED AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES

- 2 -

3. When the foregoing has been completed, we ~ < i l l ~ ; a n t to

take a stater.:ent from Agent Shaneyfelt and such other

Bureau personnel as may be involved in the making of

these invest igations .

The enclosed photographs are the personal property of E. Howard

Hunt. Copies should be made and the photos returned to us for

eventual return to Mr. Hunt. The same wil l hold true for the

forthcoming photos of Mr. Sturgis .

Because our t ime, is running very shor t , we ask tha t this request

be expedited 1;ith the greates t possible speed. Thank you.

Very t ru ly yours,c ~ > ~R ~ t : 1 : . Olsen - - - - - - - - - - - - ~Senior Counsel

Enclosures: 21 Photos (with noteson back)

-526 (JFK ACT)

D ~ T E



you may ob j oc t to t h i s ques t i on - - i f your work with the

Waterga te bur g l a r s did in f a c t upse t the plan of th e

:<-par ty sys t em, w ouldn ' t t h a t f a ~ t t ry to tu rn America

in to a s i n g l e -p a r t y system?

HR. RUBIN: l i n s t r u c t him no t to answer

that : . I t i s h igh ly s p e c u l a t i v e .

Q (By Mr. Friedman) Wouldn ' t t h a t , a l s o ,

lead to t h · ~ ' .C.,. ' lCl.U.Sl.Oft ~ h a t the r e r son who t r i e J to Jo

;'j

t h i s would in f a c t be a Right-Wing Ext remis t?

Same response . l !e ref ' . lses to

a n s w • ~ under i n s t r uc t 1on of counse l .

Q (By Mr. Friedman) May I see your d r i v e r ' s

l i c e n s e to check i n to th e he igh t it lists fo r you?

A (Wi tness compl1es . )

MR. F R I E D ~ ! A N : ~ r . l lunt showed me a

d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e which sa id unde r the h e i g h ~ r equ i r emen t

s oa.

I assum t h a t i s 5 ' 3 ' ' ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ,

s i r ?

A It's hard fo r me to - -

MR. RUBIN: You i n t e r p r e t it any way -

THE DEPONENT: determine w h a t the Sta t e

of Fl o r i da s s i gns fo r my h e i g h t .

Q {By Mr. Friedman) But 1 t d id say 5 JS on

th e he igh t then?

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Q ~ e w i l l g iv e t h e ~ : ~ o th e c o 1 r ~ = - , . o r t e r a11d they

r - n ~ . uB r :

w i t h aceL.::1tt:: o v t r l a y s - : ~ . : ; ' f : y ~ : i _ b i · ' : . 11· \" .,.;.itil thi..:! Cu ,( _;·t:.-:

.a c c u r a t e p i c t u r e r ; o'!: ~ ~ ( , : . t i - t y,;.;,_:rself and H r. S t l L ~ . - y ' . :

I ~ a n o n ly say it ' , an a c c u r a t e ~ i c t u r L

Q \1hcn p l a c e d e v e r t l :e 1:-· :-lge 2 2 3 p i c ~ · . o . r c ~ o-t_

f e a t u r e s , t h i n g s t l1a t a IJl1oto a n a l y s i s w u ~ l d i n c t i c a ~ L

a re you and ~ ! r . S t u r g i s ?

A I 2m n o t a ~ _ j h o t c a:-:.J.l::st so I can 1+: C O J ~ r , - ~ . t . ,_,.·

·...,-_:_ th E : X p er t i s e . say " -' .

York ' l 'ir:ces c o r r e s p o n d c : 1 t rcr: tarked to me, th e a c e t a tc ; uvC:::r-

l a y w i th t h a t o f t h e t r a m p , it l ooks l i ke me as mucn it

l o o k s l i k e John Kennedy .

Q Are you denyi .1g t h a t t h i s p e r s o n t h a t was t a k e n

i n t o c : . : : _ . ; t o c ~ i - i.:t i .J3.l las Or'!. :'-Jt · · ~ : m b e r 22: _ l _ c ) . ~ 3 , Ctn'_,_ . f O U r s e l f

a re in f a c t d i f f e r e n t ?

A I a ~ Siy ing I am n o t t h a t i n d i v i d u a l n o r ~ a s •

I was in v ~ · a s h J . . H · j t : o n ,

D . C .

I was w i th a l a r g e r 1 u ~ b e r o f p e c ; l e . At t i le

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S t a t e s , yes .

Q How t ~ , " i l l ( ! · · ~ - = y o u o, you r driver's

licEo:1Se7

A I 'm _no! 3 1 _ ; r ~ : ! ; abo-..lt 5 ~ 1 0 ' 5;11 · · • ,

Q ~ ! a ~ ~ y 0 ~ ~ a v ~ r been accused by your e x -

a t t o r ne y

• . i ~ - : a it a SC(;OnJ. Can I

look a t t ha t ?

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( l iandi .n<; l i c e n s e t o t he

Okay.

Q (Sy ~ r . F r i ~ J m a n ) Do yea know t l1at your

e x - a t t o r ~ 2 y , . , b e l i e v e s y o ~ to be th e

t r a ~ p in the n a i l y? l ,

A \ r lel l .. .:i.' ; ~ · - · s t ~ : : . ' : ! l l that he b e l i e v e d I 'm

8 : '.:

th e p ic tu r . ; s in thcs-.-- two p e o p l e that I

saw up t he r e t h a t l a o ~ l i ~ ~ mo, f o r g e t it.

,

You u ; d c c s t a n J t h a t 14ar i ta L or ens , a l so , ]

belit::!ves t ~ i s 7

P e u J l · . ~ c-::..n bLJ._.l.eve w h a t t . f1ey w a n t t<..;

b e l i e v e .

Did you use rubbe r g l ove s , f a l s e ID and alI

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o.::.;::;pacia1 t.3sk f o r c e ~ C . 1 . n · 1 n r ~ h-;o }X;" ; " io : ;<,

of n ~ t t i o t 1 a 1 c:cjsis; "took par t in 1'-'ldtc Ho11::se c o n f c : r · : ~ i l C C ~ _ ; . Hcmber HSC } n t e r < . . i c ; J , - · ! · t ; r : c ~ n : ..

Gro·1p for I ~ 1 1 r o ; ) c .]_9\.0 l ) l ~ c s s Aic:e to A ~ - : ( t . v l ~ , . s a d o : r : · Avq•··c-11 HarriyP.il i l l ' P J r i . ' ~ ~ .7Jut·-1.n.z, - I J y ) ~ - ~ y:·:·d,-,d ,-n .ot(; ~ ' n · : ~ ,!·,.r·odttecd 1.1r j zc.·· ":·rj nniti.t: do-:uu1cn'tary f i J in f'c·r·. Ute 1 - < e u n o ~ r l i . c C - : ) c : p ~ : " ' " C . t . . i ~ r i A L ~ l • ' _ j _ t1i .;. i..rrJ.-L -ion ri

Screen wri t c r , Harn•"r Brothers Studi'os

G u g e e n h e ~ \ m Felloi;.."sh:1.p in Creu Live 1/h:.l tin"G

Forej en C o r 1 · e s p o n d ~ ~ n t for I. i EatT,:)7.ine i Sou t..h P a c · ~ f i cF . d - ~ tol'··Viri tc r fol"' l'.J?c Ji-0rq_b___Qf_1'].I:l£

PUU .JC!.TlO>:S: Hrote rr.ore L h ~ , n 30 published novels; contributed to :J;lx: _ ; . ; , . , · , : _ _ ) ~ Q T . k r n : ,£ Z . ~ £ l ~ ~ E 9 . . i i t:_-;Q and r ~ : a t _ i o r ~ : J . 2 - _B_q_yj c;_}i.

E I J _ , J ' ! : t ) C f _ ~ E P o Y J 0 J ' ; : Dur'cnc; "rorld Har IT served ac; Nwal Off icer en North A l ar ;U" i ' a t ~ o lanci also as Air Force· officer with OSS irt Chin3.

Q R 0 ~ ~ ~ - J J : 7 . A T I O £ } ~ : HembE.L of Zeta Psj Frater·nity, Bt'oHn Un:i vei·si ty AltJ.mni Club o!: 'das1l:i nr.:

tcm, Ar,ny & Navy Country Club, L<il<c',rocd Coun:cry Club. Former 1-Je•.nbrcr of Fol·t Oransc Clue•(Albany-, N.Y.), Albany Count·ry Club, Tokyo L ~ ; · ~ . ' r - 1 Tfnni:; Club, Jockoy Club, (I-fontev::.dt:o)

Urur;u;;y), Rcforma Athlc t ic Club (Ecxico Ci.ty), Hacquet & Tennis C1 ub ( t - l i : 1 ~ • ' c k>c:ch), F•)l'toi>cl1 Correspondents Club (Nc;r York), Press Club of Nad;·id, Screen \{r\tc! 's Guild, A u t h o r ~Guild. ·

llon. hichard Helms, Director of Central Intcllit;Emcc, Central Intell'q_:ence Agccncy, F a ~ ; h in;::Lon, D. C. . 2050.5

l ~ o n . C:barlcG \1 . Colson , Special_ Counse1. to the Prc;sident , 'i'ho White HO\J3t:, \ - . : ~ s h . i . n c t o n ,D. C.

Mr. \{illiam F. Buckley J r . , 1.50 _East 35th Street , New York, N, Y, 10016



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X: Yes N\a'am, we're good friends an d I wouldn't want, uh, I may wrlte a bo ok myself

! l ' m i B B I I I ~ on e of these days.

MC: well , that's a possibility, see, I represent a publisher.

X: Yeah, I have a publisher who wants me to write a book. I think maybe I will, later on.

MC: tvbybe we could discuss that too.

X: No, I wouldn't care to, thank you. Sorry, but I wouldn't want to discuss i t .

MC: There's only one question which we really need an answer--

X:· I know, a man called me the other day from Germany an d he got almost irritated a t

me because I wouldn't talk to him about i t, but if I talk to on e I have to talk to the rest

of them. I couldn't just pick out on e person and t<ml k to him.

MC: Right. Well, what if a publisher--

X: Some of the things that I wouldn't core to discuss are the things that they want to know about.

MC : Right. Uh , what if a publisher approached you with an offer for a book?

X: I don't think that I would now . I'm gonna wait a little later.

MC : There's quite a bit of mone y in that.

X: Yeah, I guess so .

MC: And uh, you know it might be very luc.-ative if you could, you know, give a publisher

to make an offer to you.

X: \tV,"l ' l , I wouldn't care to right now, maybe later on.

MC: Is there , uh--There was a lieutenant I believe, who was working with you that day

here in Dallas. The case in point is three tramps or hobos who were brought in.

X: Yes, I know about that. I can ' t help you a to l l . Did you talk to the FBI? They

might help you.

MC: I talked to Mr. Harkness, an d he is quite willing to talk about it and discuss it.

X: Yes, he probably wouldn't know about the details you want.

MC: They refused to give the information out, too.

X: They did?

MC: Yes.

X: Well, they'll be the only ones to have it .

MC : Uh, Sir , those tramps, Harkness turned them over to somebody, who did he turn them

over to , a Iieutencnt?

X: I don't know.

MC: Do you know what happened to those three tromps?

X: No, I sure don't . I don't know nothin about them a t al l .

MC: Well, they were turned over to you, weren't they?

X: To Me?

MC : Yes.



X: NO.

MC: We II , who were they turned over to.

X: I don't know. (un intelligible) because

could help you would be the FBI .

I didn't handle i t. I to ld you the only ones who

MC: You don't know who those three tra . mps were turned over to ?

X: No I don't I sure don't .

MC: Well, uh, D.O. HArkness testified that he turned them over to you.

X: Well, I can' t help that. But if you talk to the H:Bc FBI--that's the on ly place I know

of you co u ld get the information.

MC: Did you discuss this with the FBI.

X: Oh yeah, I discussed everything with them. Because they came over later to recheck the

case, you know.

MC:. When did they do that?

X: Along about the time of the Warren Commission.

an d find out everything I know about i t.

You could read the Warren Commiss ion

MC: The Warren Commission never asked about the tramps.

X: Didn't they?

MC: No, they never did. So we don't really know what happened to them. And you're the only

one who does.

X: Yeah, well, I can' t talk to you about it . I'm sorry. I wish I could, but I can ' t .

MC: What is the reason you won' tdkx talk about it?

X: Well, I just don't want to .

MC: We II, there's gotta be a reason .

X: Yes, I told you that I may write a book myself, late r on. Kxkllid,

MC: What about a publisher, sir, would you like to talk to a publisher?

X: No, not now. I want to be nice to you, but I wreally don't want to talk to you about i t.

MC: I kno.v, but I don't understand why.

X: Well, ~ h e r e ' s a lot of things I don't understand, too, but . . . I told you where you could

find out, that's the only place I know where you could find out.

MC: Well, I can' t find out there either. Because they're not letting that information out .

X: Well, I can' t help that. I can't speak for them. OK, well, you call you next year,

and maybe I'll have a change of heart.

MC: Again, sire, this could be a very lucrative offer.

X: Yes, I don't believe I would be interested right noiv .

MC: And you don't know who ibmx those three tramps e were turned over to?

X: I don't want to discuss that .a t all .

MC: You don't want to discuss that

X: No.



J • •

MC: Is there something you're trying to hide, sir?

X: No, I don't want to discuss it not at all . So , if you'll talk those people I told you

about. If you can get them to tell you, you'll have the information . If you can' t I

don't know where else you'll find it .

MC: Did you give the information to them?

X: I told you I didn't want to discuss that. I'm used to these conversations an d I want

-Mfi.x to be nice to you as long as I can, so don't keep talking to r . me over and over about

the same thing, cause I'm not going to discuss i t. I don't want to be rude to you, but

I answered a II I w iII .

MC: I'd Iike to know why--

X: Well, I know there'sa lot of things you'd like to know, but I jus tcan ' thelpyou.

MC: Who do you think could, sir?

X: The FBI.

MC: We II , they've refused to.

X : We II , I con • he Ip tho t .

MC: I would approach them, thought you had s: discussed this with them.

X: Well, yes, I know, but I don't tell them what to do.

MC: Yeah, but .t:b: did you discuss this with them?

X: Now I told you I would be nice to you as long as I could, please dont bother me about

i t, I don't want to di sc uss it , I want to treat you as nice as you'd let me.

MC: Well, you could treat me very nice, by - -

X: I'm going to treat you very n i c e ~ by not ta Iking with you any more.

MC: That's not very nice.

X: That's all I can tell you.

MC : That's too bad, sir, because

X: That's a II right.

MC: --America is in a bad place, an d sir- - I was wondering-- I represent a congressman

Gonzalez, a Congressman from San Antonio--who's very much interested in this incident.

X: Well, maybe he can help you.

MC: Well, if you were called before Congress, sir, would you, uh--you would have to

testify then wouldn't you?X: I won • be co lied before £ongress.

MC: Yeah we II you very wa<Mx might we II could be.

X: Oh, ldon' t think so . ldon' tcare to talk toyouabout that , thankyou. Bye (hangsup}

MC: Thank you .



UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

FEDE R AL B UREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Mr. A. J . Weberman

6 Bleecker Stree t

WASBINCTON. D.C . 20535

APR 0 5 1978

New York, New York 10012

Dear Mr. Weberman:

Reference is made to your l e t t e r in which youmake inquiry about SA Shaneyfel t ' s "tramp shot" repor t .

Enclosed is a Report of the FBI Laboratory bySA Shaneyfelt which perta ins to your request . This documentwas obtained from the John F. Kennedy Assassination Fi leswhich are avai lable for public reading in our ReadingRoom.

Sincerely yours,

J/1,. /( 1( , f / 4Allen H. McCreight, ChiefFreedom of Information-

Privacy Acts BranchRecords Management Division

•



•. ....... . -• •

Teletype from Director , FBI, to SAC, Dallas , dated4/14/75, captioned "Assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy,Dallas, Texas, November 22, 1963, Miscellaneous - Information

Concerning."

Airtel from SAC, Dallas, to Director , FBI, dated4/15/75, captioned "Assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy,Dallas, Texas, 11/22/63, Hiscellaneous - Information Concerning."

Air tel from SAC, Dallas, to Director, FBI, dated4/17/75, captioned "Assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy,Dallas , Texas, 11/22/63, Miscellaneous - Information Concerning.' '

Air tel from SAC, Lit t le Rock, to Director, FBI, dated4/17/75, captioned "Assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy,

Dallas, Texas, 11/22/63, Miscellaneous - Information Concerning."

Air tel from SAC, Lit t le Rock, to Director , FBI, dated4/21/75, captioned "Assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy,Dallas, Texas, 11/22/63, Miscellaneous - Information Concerning."

Letter from Director, FBI, to Deputy Attorney General,dated 4/21/75, captioned "Commission on CIA Activi t ies withinthe United States . ' '

Laboratory report to ~ l r . Robert B. Olsen, Senior Counsel,Commission on CIA Activi t ies within the United States ,

Washington, D. C. 20500, dated 4/21/75, captioned "Commissionon CIA Activi t ies Nithin the United State.s ."

Letter from John C. Keeney, Acting Assis tant AttorneyGeneral, Criminal Division, to Director, FBI, dated 5/2/75,captioned "Response to Inquiries Regarding Invest igat ion ofAssassinat ions."

Letter to llonorable llarold R. Tyler, J r . , DeputyAttorney General, Department of Jus t ice , Washington, D. C.

20530, from Robert B. Olsen, Senior Counsel, Commission on

CIA Activi t ics Iii thin the United States , dated 2/S/75.

Laboratory l e t t e r to Mr. Robert B. Olsen, SeniorCounsel, Commission on CIA Activi t ies within the United States ,

Washington, D. C. 20500, dated 5/15/75, captioned "Commissionon CIA Activi t ies within the United States ."

- 4 -



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1 mrhh Lorenz 153

2 in t ha t , was anybody e l se there , any o ther wi tnesses

3 to t ha t?

4 A My son.

5 Q And he heard i t ?

6 A Yes.

7 What was h e, seven a t th e t ime . He 's

8 in te res ted in s t a r wars . He ' s n o t i n t e re s t ed in Frank.

9 0 When you were a t th e Miami Spr ings V i l l a s ,

10 d id they ever apprehend th e a t t acke r to your knowledge?

11 A He go t away. I knifed him. He g o t away.

~ But as fa r as I know, I was supposed to come back

13 to sec re t l y t e s t i fy aga i ns t him, b u t it was too d e l i c a t e

14 a s i tua t ion involv ing na t iona l s e c u r i t y , e t c e t e r a ,

15 so they l e t it go. But I th ink he h u r t somebody e l s e .

1 6 H e ~ a & u al oca l psychopath, homic ida l maniac in th e

17 a rea known to th e po l i ce , and they hushed it up.

18 M.R. HOFFMAN: That i s a l l t he ques t ions h a ~ .19 M.R. MICHAELS: I guess t h a t means we a re

20 through.

(Time noted: 6:55 P.M.)21

22

~ Subscr ibed and sworn to )

~ before me t h i s

25 day o f

) ' ~) . d . . a ~ " : ! f - t:J. 4K>

SOUTHERN DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE

FOLEY SQUARE. NE W YORK.NY

. - 791-1020

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SEAFE)"'FELT, Lynds1 L.

\\ASEmGJ'Ol\ STAR Clippi.Df c i B ~ d 25 January 1969

1 . Subject, e former FBI agent and pboto expert , bas been subpoenaed

by GA? .. I S O l es e •1.tness e t the C 1 e ~ SEA'..' t r i a l in Ne ... 0:-leans.

Att . Ref .

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height studies of tramps

Documents