PUBLIC SESSION

MINUTES OF ORAL EVIDENCE

taken before

HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE

On the

HIGH SPEED RAIL (LONDON – WEST MIDLANDS) BILL

Wednesday, 11 March 2015 (Afternoon)

In Committee Room 5

PRESENT:

Mr Robert Syms (In the Chair)

Sir Peter Bottomley Mr Henry Bellingham

Mr Ian Mearns

____________

IN ATTENDANCE

Mr Timothy Mould QC, Lead Council, Department for Transport Mr Francis Partridge, Denham Against HS2

Ms Doreen McIntyre

Witnesses: Mrs Paula Sage, Mr Paul Pennifer and Mr Robert Young

Ms Sally Cooper and Mr Luke Oldfield Mr Michael Fosberry

Mr James Gibbs, Gibbs Gillespie estate agents Mrs Elizabeth Hall and Gary Davis

Mr David Gauke MP Ms Sally Cakebread Mrs Diane Blackwell Mr Thomas Bankes

Mrs Sylvia Ball and Ms Alexandra Smith Mr David Crofts

Mr Peter Miller, Head of Environment and Planning, HS2 Ltd

IN PUBLIC SESSION

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INDEX

Subject Page Paula Sage, Paul Pennifer and Robert Young (Cont’d) Mr Miller, examined by Mr Mould 3 Mr Miller, cross-examined by Mr Young 6 Submissions from Mr Mould 7 Luke Oldfield and Sally Cooper Submissions from Ms Cooper 9 Submissions from Mr Mould 11 Michael Fosberry and others Submissions from Mr Fosberry 12 Mr Gibbs, examined by Mr Fosberry 19 Further submissions from Mr Fosberry 24 Submissions from Mr Mould 25 Elizabeth Hall and Gary Davis Submissions from Mrs Hall 29 Submissions from Mr Gauke 36 Response from Mr Mould 39 Sally Cakebread Submissions from Ms Cakebread 48 Submissions from Mr Mould 58 Diane Blackwell Submissions from Mrs Blackwell 61 Response from Mr Mould 67 Thomas Bankes Submissions from Mr Bankes 69 Submissions from Mr Mould 80 Sylvia Ball and Alexandra Smith Preliminary submission from Ms McIntyre on behalf of both petitioners 83 Submissions from Ms Smith 83 Submissions from Mrs Ball 87 Submissions from Mr Mould 91 David Crofts Submissions from Mr Crofts 97 Submissions from Mr Mould 101

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(At 13.02)

1. CHAIR: Order, order. Welcome back to the HS2 Committee. The only

advantage of recessing, or when Prime Minister’s Questions is on is easier usually to

get in the queues for lunch because everybody else is watching what’s going on, so I

hope most people have managed to find somewhere to get a sandwich. Mr Mould?

Paula Sage, Paul Pennifer and Robert Young (Cont’d)

2. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, thank you. Mr Miller is going to just run through

the scheme in relation to the Misbourne, particular, I think Mr Miller, if you can just

explain the position a little further west as we get into the Chilterns tunnel?

3. MR MILLER: Yes. The area that we’re looking at at the moment in the Colne

Valley is covered by the Community Forum CFA report number seven and the River

Misbourne is covered in CFA eight, so it’s the next report along. That report describes

the route where it goes into a tunnel at the M25 and then through the first part, or

southern part of the Chiltern Hills, so we’re in the higher ground and we’re cutting

through it in a tunnel.

4. We pass the River Misbourne in two places, in between the Chalfonts and in the

area of Little Missenden, which is probably between Amersham and Little Missenden

in the Misbourne valley. The tunnels are about 20 metres deep there, to their crown, in

both locations, so we’re not directly affecting the Misbourne but the Misbourne is an

interesting river as the petitioners have highlighted. It is a chalk stream and these are

very valuable resources and they are only found in certain locations in the country, this

being one of them.

5. In my time on the project, it certainly has been part of the discussion, certainly in

the Chilterns, in particular in June 2011, there was quite a bit of debate about the effects

of the Misbourne with the route that we had then. The route was subsequently changed

and a longer tunnel was moved away from Amersham into its current position and that

longer tunnel then, we think that in the ground conditions in that location, will have less

risk associated with any surface water.

6. The Misbourne is associated both with surface water, as a feature in its own right,

and also it is fed by ground water, and I think the petitioner said that it was clean

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because of the way it percolates through the chalk, and in fact rises through the chalk at

a point just north of Great Missenden, and then flows down to the Colne a little bit

further south from where the petitioners current reside.

7. So, it’s very important for its ecology and the water quality is a very important

aspect, and the nature of the river itself is an important aspect. So, what we’ve looked

at is, what is the effect the tunnels have on the water course, that’s set out in the

Environmental Statement, in the CFA eight, it’s at section 13.4 and you can go through

that. There is a good number of pages which really describes, in fairly non technical

language, what’s going on, for the ground water conditions and what we expect to do

with the tunnel and how we’re going to manage risks. All of this has been taken up

with the Environment Agency, and I think I’ve given evidence before where I’ve

described the relationship the project has with the Environment Agency, and we operate

a service level agreement with them. In fact, two of their members of staff work out of

our offices, so we have very immediate responses from the Environment Agency about

the plans that we have entered into. I personally think that’s very good practice, it’s the

sort of thing that has come through from the Olympics and other projects.

8. So, we take this very seriously, and the Bill takes it very seriously as well. There

are protected provisions for the water environment included within the Bill, and those

will ultimately be enacted. So, the protection of water has teeth because of the Act

itself, the legislation.

9. Further to that, we have the Code of Construction Practice, and as I say, we’ve set

out the likely construction methods in the Community Forum Report. Overall, we think

the risk to the river itself is minimal; there is always a risk and part of the risk

management is to think about how we will monitor that environment going forward,

whether it’s the ground water conditions or the surface water conditions, and that’s set

out in the Environmental Statement.

10. So, we’ve got a number of controls; Code of Construction Practice applies, and if

you need any further information about that, the controls that are generally applied, we

have set that out in the information paper, which hopefully will help everybody

understand what we’re doing, and it’s information paper E4, and that’s in as non

technical language as we can make it, so that people can understand the sorts of things

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that we would do, by way of best practice, and the ES talks about these conditions in

particular to protect this important resource.

11. MR MOULD QC (DfT): There was one other point that the petitioners raised,

and that was about engaging with local bodies, and I think we have, haven’t we, been

engaging with the Chiltern Society in relation to the potential effects of the scheme on

the River Misbourne as well as with the agency and other regulatory bodies?

12. MR MILLER: Yes; back in 2011, when we went out on the consultation road

shows, I certainly met with a couple of the people from those interest groups, and

they’ve got interests in trying to maintain the flow of the river further up. In fact, they

are trying to protect the river by putting in a liner. Whether that’s the right thing to do

or not, I don’t know, but it’s certainly been part of the discussions that we’ve had way

back, the route in Amersham was in quite a deep cutting before it moved away, and is

now in a deep tunnel in that location. There were great concerns about the original

alignment because of some fissured chalk; some chalk with faults in it, that the original

cutting would have passed through, and we believe that the route is now in a much

better place for the ground water and the surface water conditions relating to the river

itself.

13. So, yes, the consultation and the further engagement has taken place. That’s also

taken place with the Environment Agency, that will continue with the Environment

Agency, I believe they will be very interested in understanding what our plans are for

the river, and that may even go to a consent regime to assure the Environment Agency

that we are able to protect the river and not cloud it in any way or otherwise pollute it.

So, it’s foremost in our minds and it is a particular resource of concern, and it has a

local ecological status; I think we need to talk about it being of regional value. I don’t

think it’s a SSSI, but it clearly is very important, and is obviously very clean, it’s got

trout in it.

14. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I suppose I might just also, for the record, at this point,

remind everybody that under paragraph 4.2.2 of the draft Code of Construction

Practice, very clear commitment that the nominated undertaker will engage with local

communities, local authorities and other stakeholders, in order to develop the local

environmental management plans, and at Annex 3 to that Code, there is a template,

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‘Local Environmental Management Plan’, which says that, ‘These plans will set out any

site specific local control measures which are appropriate to the locality’ and one of the

topics that is mentioned is water resources and flood risk, and it says this, ‘Measures to

protect particularly sensitive water resources, water courses, water bodies, ground water

and abstractions, will be identified. Any site specific measures required to limit the risk

of flooding will also be identified. These will also be subject to relevant third party

consents and notifications’, and so there is a clear commitment to engaging with the

local community, as well as with the regulatory bodies, in the development of

appropriate local and site specific measures to safeguard, amongst other things, ground

water and local water courses for the purposes of constructing the railway.

15. Thank you. Shall I just deal with one or two other specific points?

16. CHAIR: Shall we just ask – do you want to follow up with a question?

17. MR YOUNG: Yes, perhaps more of a request. It’s reassuring to hear that so

much work has been done and so much thought has been given to it. The suggestion

that I have is that there could beneficially be a more formal arrangement between the

Environment Agency and the Chiltern Society or the Chiltern Area of Outstanding

National Beauty, such that the Environment Agency being a national agency is not

going to have the same kind of insight and input as a local expert resource such as that,

so what I would like to see is a more formal arrangement, rather than something which

is somewhat open ended and non specific, like ‘consulting with the local community’

could mean many things. Nailing it down a little bit more, such that the – let’s say the

Chiltern Society have a formal input into the risk management strategy and to policing

the construction as it goes along, that, I think, would be a good idea.

18. CHAIR: Okay, good point. Thank you. Whilst you’re here, the viaduct, does

that have any impact on the Misbourne?

19. MR MILLER: On the Misbourne?

20. CHAIR: Yes.

21. MR MILLER: No it doesn’t, no we’re much further up. The viaduct as it curves

across the water bodies there are cutting across and over a number of the lakes and then

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we go over the River Colne, and as you heard yesterday, our plan is to divert that

slightly over a short distance so that we don’t have a pier appearing in the river itself,

which we didn’t think was a good thing to do, so the river alignment has been adjusted,

so that it can be more free flowing as a result.

22. CHAIR: Okay.

23. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: So essentially, on the Misbourne, the aim is that

the railway project shouldn’t do anything to interfere with its flow or with the quality of

the water? Basically.

24. MR MILLER: That’s right.

25. CHAIR: Carry on, Mr Mould.

26. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you. I’ll just pick up on one or two detailed

points. If we can put up P5255. This is the question of duration of closure of Tilehouse

Lane. The proposal is that Tilehouse Lane along the length shown with the purple

crossed notation on the plan in front of you, that that will require to be closed for a

period of 1.5 years, and on the current programme, that closure would be during the

years 2017, 2018.

27. During that period of closure, as you can see with the blue notation, a local

diversion route is shown and the length of that diversion is shown in the box on the

bottom right hand corner of the side of the plan. That does involve local traffic passing

along Denham Green Lane, during the period of closure, that is the assumption that is

made in the Environmental Statement. There was a question raised, I think about

responsibility for the upkeep of that road; I understand it’s not an adopted highway. If

it is indeed a road in private ownership, then it may be that the frontages are responsible

for its upkeep and the law on these things is, as I’m sure the Committee knows,

fiendishly complicated, but I can cut through that by saying that of course, HS2 will be

responsible for any maintenance or upkeep that results from the scheme and whilst we

don’t propose to use that road directly for HS2 traffic, if the effect of closing a section

of road is to create a greater degree of usage of that road during the period of closure of

Tilehouse Lane than it would normally bear, and as a result its condition deteriorates,

then HS2 would be responsible for addressing that issue.

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28. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can I ask two questions, one is, does some

commercial traffic use Tilehouse Lane at the moment?

29. MRS SAGE: As a main thoroughfare to homes, farms.

30. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: So heavy vehicles may use it?

31. MRS SAGE: Sorry?

32. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Heavy vehicles may be using it?

33. MRS SAGE: Oh yes.

34. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: In which case, your road is vulnerable to those.

Who would make an assessment of the axel bearing capacity of the Denham Green

Lane in advance? It seems better to sort of make an assessment early, rather than have

all the surface underneath wrecked by getting 14 tonnes bouncing down it.

35. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Well the assessment would be a task for the project, for

the undertaker, but if it is indeed a private road, then it would be a matter…

36. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It’s accepted that it’s non public road, we heard

nobody knows who has the legal responsibility for it.

37. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, it’s not an adopted road, I think is the point. It

would then be a matter for engagement through the – the same process that I have just

mentioned, the local environmental management plan, to make appropriate

arrangements for the management of traffic on that road, and I would have thought the

obvious thing, where a road is un-adopted, would be for the project to engage directly

with the frontages. But as I say, I do want to emphasise there is no proposal to route

HS2 traffic directly down that stretch of road.

38. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: No, and I don’t need to repeat that we seem to have

heard that commercial traffic may start going down it, which wouldn’t have done

otherwise.

39. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, and there may be a management issue to be

addressed there. Thank you. Can I just deal with another point which was to do with

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Old Shire Lane. If we can put up P5298. I touched on this yesterday, but I don’t

believe I showed the Committee this slide. This is a slide which gives an indication of

the project’s proposal to seek to preserve, as far as we reasonably can, the existing

hedgerow vegetation along Old Shire Lane as it passes across the proposed main

construction site as West Hyde.

40. As I explained to you yesterday, we would need to remove some sections of

hedgerow in order to enable the construction site to operate but we are committed to

seeking to retain as much of the existing vegetation along that road as we can. I

appreciate that doesn’t answer the petitioner’s point about the change in the amenity of

the footpath and the bridleway, once the railway is running, but it addresses the point

about the physical impact of the scheme at this location, upon the ancient way.

41. The other point was to do with the clearance that will be available below the

viaduct as it passes across Harefield Lake, the lake which is used by the activities

centre. I’m told that the clearance is proposed to be 10 metres from soffit to water

level, which I believe, I say this guardedly, because I’m not sailor, but I believe is

sufficient clearance to allow the sort of dinghies that use the lake to get beneath the

viaduct. I don’t think there’s any other specific points to be raised but I’ll deal with

anything else that I may have missed.

42. CHAIR: Okay. Mrs Sage, do you have any other final, brief comments?

43. MRS SAGE: No, that was fine, thank you.

44. CHAIR: Okay. Well, thank you very much for your contribution. At least we’re

getting a bit more information about what’s going on. Thank you. Luke Oldfield and

Sally Cooper, who I understand are going to make a statement.

Luke Oldfield and Sally Cooper

45. MS COOPER: My property is Little Halings. This is my son, Luke. We came

here to try and protect our primary home, and also Luke’s business, which is a

recording studio. We’ve been in the corridor this morning discussing with HS2 Limited

representatives and I think they have come up with the assurances we were looking for,

so we’ve come really to hear those placed on record, because I just want to hear that.

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I’ve been misled by HS2 in the past and it leaves you feeling really uncertain, and

there’s been five years of this, which has caused not just me, but everyone up and down

the line, a lot of stress and anxiety. I’m sure people are telling you that but I really want

to impress upon you, this is terrible, us all trying to fight for our homes.

46. I also made lots of general points in my petition, which obviously, I won’t go into

because I know you don’t want repetition and I’m not an expert, but I don’t want you to

think that I don’t mind about all these things; I do, I care deeply about the environment,

the loss of the greenbelt, the amenities that will be lost, the ancient hedgerow that we’ve

just been talking about, and that you try and look after all of us who live so close to this

in terms of noise, dust, light pollution, working hours, because I notice a lot of HS2 say,

‘Well, we’ll aim to do this, but we might have to do that’, and it makes you feel very

vulnerable.

47. Do you want to say anything, Luke?

48. MR OLDFIELD: We’re appearing together because we share the same concerns

really; we don’t want to take up too much of your time. I’m mainly here to hear what

HS2 put on record what we were discussing today.

49. CHAIR: Okay. Mr Mould?

50. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you. The promoter will be providing assurances

on the following to…

51. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Before you do that, can you go to 5388 so we can

see?

52. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Certainly. Yes, thank you.

53. MS COOPER: If I could say just one more thing, those two fields that you can

see there that are mine, are wild flower meadows at the moment, and that’s how I’d like

them to remain, but I’ve basically been beaten into submission, I give up, and they’re

going to be as tree planting. And the other thing I’d like to say about that, is I found

that out by chance; a local farmer came to tell me and he’d found out by chance, and

it’s just so disturbing, it undermines your whole stability and your home. I’ve lived

there 35 years, I went there pregnant with my first daughter, I’ve raised all my family

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there, I can’t tell you how upsetting it is.

54. CHAIR: Okay. Mr Mould?

55. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, thank you. As I say, the promoter would be

providing assurances on the following matters: firstly the meadows belonging to the

petitioner adjacent to the West Hyde construction area and shown in the Environmental

Statement to be used for mitigation planting and nothing else, and specifically, they will

not be used as a construction compound, and that relates to the areas that you can see on

the screen in front of you.

56. The second matter is the existing hedgerow at the edge of the meadows by Shire

Lane will be retained in its entirety along the boundary of Ms Cooper’s property.

57. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can that be pointed out? Can you point to it? Or

maybe she can.

58. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I think we might go to the next slide.

59. MR OLDFIELD: The hedgerow’s the top red line, horizontal line.

60. MR MOULD QC (DfT): And the next point is this, a temporary three to four

metre earthwork bund will be placed between the temporary route for the Denham Park

Farm quarry access and the Old Shire Lane bridleway where it passes by the

petitioner’s property and that is broadly in the same location.

61. And then finally, HS2 Limited will work with Mr Oldfield and Ms Cooper to

establish whether there is likely to be an effect from noise upon their businesses and

identify possible solutions. And we will seek to complete work on those assurances so

that they are in final form to the satisfaction of the petitioners as soon as we can.

62. CHAIR: Okay, good. What is your businesses?

63. MR OLDFIELD: Well, the house that we live in has quite a hive of activity.

There are different sections of it; there’s a house, a cottage, an apartment, which my

mother runs as a bed and breakfast, but also professional recording studio, which is my

business. It’s been there since 1981. Obviously, it’s designed with the surrounding

countryside in mind, so when it was built, we never had a problem with noise and this

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could really threaten my livelihood and job and everything I’ve been working towards.

Having a recording studio at home is really a dream for somebody my age, aged 28, and

that’s kind of under threat, so these assurances, hopefully, will help – well, they’re there

to help mitigate noise, but we don’t know how noisy it’s going to be but hopefully,

these things will help. That’s all we can think of.

64. MS COOPER: We live in absolute silence – I can tell you, a totally sleepless

night last night, so I can tell you it’s silent all night long and just broken by the birds at

quarter to six this morning, and obviously, it’s going to be very different.

65. CHAIR: Okay, thank you very much.

66. MS COOPER: Thank you.

67. CHAIR: We now move onto Michael Fosberry and others.

Michael Fosberry and others

68. CHAIR: We’re going to need to have a break at two, because we’ve got two or

three MPs coming in for a private session to talk about how we handle some business in

future and trips, so I’d be grateful if we could go straight to the point.

69. MR FOSBERRY: I will hope to do that, that’s what I always try and do. Can I

just go back to slide 5255? No, it wasn’t that one.

70. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Do you want to show where you are?

71. MR FOSBERRY: If you see where the ‘b’ is.

72. MR MEARNS: Can you point on the screen in front of you?

73. CHAIR: You’re on the ‘b’?

74. MR FOSBERRY: Our house is basically here.

75. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Five three four three will show us pretty clearly.

76. MR FOSBERRY: That’s it. And you’ll see we’re sort of an island in the midst

of safeguarded land all around us, so we are pretty close to the…

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77. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We heard evidence yesterday so we’re familiar

with –

78. MR FOSBERRY: What I’d like to do is start by talking a little bit about my

family, and that’s really why I’m here. We moved into this house which was a little

more than a shell back in November 1997, our son Jack was just two months old at the

time, and, having lived in London, inner London, it was our dream house; a rural

location, within the M25, and an easy commute to my office in the West End.

79. We’ve spent a lot of money over the years renovating the house and in 2008/9

moved out for a year to rented accommodation whist having major building works

carried out. May I have my first slide please?

80. We were out of the house for a year, we moved in about six or seven months

afterwards, then HS2 was announced. You can imagine the devastating effect that had.

81. From a heath perspective, obviously, one can’t link everything on health directly

to an announcement about HS2, but since we’ve returned to the house, I was diagnosed

with prostate cancer, and more recently, with type II diabetes. My doctor tells me that

I’m not a typical person for type II diabetes, I’m not overweight, apparently, which I

was pleased to hear, but that stress is often an issue, when it comes to type II diabetes.

Quite honestly, for the last five years, there has not been a day when I haven’t been

concerned about HS2 and its impact upon our family.

82. Retirement plans; I’m in my 63rd year. I was looking forward to retiring, around

aged 60. Everything has now been put on hold. I’ve viewed my house, I suppose, as a

bit of an insurance policy, and insurance policy, if it came to it, I would always have the

option of selling it, and realising funds from the sale of the property to finance our joint

retirement.

83. So, the net result of all this has been a devastating impact upon family and our

future. Can I have the first slide please?

84. So, that’s history. I’d just like to talk about the proximity to the proposed route,

environmental concerns I raised in my petition, and also a bit about the compensation

scheme. James here is going to act as a witness in relation to part of that exercise.

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85. If I could move to the next slide. The back of our house is actually quite

important because all of the action on HS2 is happening behind us and beside us, not to

the front of the property. That’s the view from our back garden across the Colne

Valley. If we could move to the next slide, that shows the proximity of our house to the

proposed HS2 route. So we are very directly impacted. The road opposite us,

Tilehouse Lane, is going to be closed, we think for two years, although somebody was

suggesting earlier today, it might be five years, I don’t know what the true number is. If

we go to the next slide?

86. This also helps demonstrate the proximity; that’s the north east side of our garden,

looking about across the field which is known as Pines Field, showing the route across

Pines Field. Could I have the next slide please?

87. If you look at the impact on ecology, the River Colne. The Colne Valley is a

beautiful area. I know you came on your visit and it is at times surprising, at times

stunning. It’s a great place to live, for all sorts of reasons, it’s very close to central

London, but you have this rural feel to the local area.

88. River diversion, in relation to the Colne, to me is a very major issue and what the

impact of that might be. HS2 are currently stating that the work on the habitat will

happen just in advance of the diversion of the river. I actually think that that work on

the habitat has to start a lot earlier; you can’t start just in advance, and I’m talking

probably about years, rather than months.

89. In terms of monitoring, we do need independent monitoring of what is happening

with the river; how is that going to be delivered to us? Can local residents have

quarterly updates from the Environment Agency and National England, for example?

Is that on the table? I don’t know.

90. CHAIR: Don’t the Environment Agency monitor all the rivers?

91. MR FOSBERRY: They may do so, but do they report back to the local residents?

This is a pretty major change in our local ecology.

92. CHAIR: Okay.

93. MR FOSBERRY: Could I have the next slide please? Public rights of way;

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we’ve heard a lot about Shire Lane – I think it was the ancient boundary between

Mercia and Wessex and currently the boundary between…

94. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: May you assume we’ve heard this twice before and

it probably hasn’t changed?

95. MR FOSBERRY: Okay. Well, it’s currently the boundary between Hertfordshire

and Buckinghamshire, beside my house, but there’s a public right of way running

alongside my house, and at the bottom of Shire Lane, to the right of that yellow line, is

where HS2 will be crossing Shire Lane, so Shire Lane will be closed. The statement

has been made by HS2 which says, ‘Alternative routes may be longer but not by that

great a distance’. Now, to get back to the same point as the yellow line to the right,

that’s the direction one would have to travel and it’s a distance of probably over two

miles, so I think again, we probably need to have a little bit of licence in terms of what

represents ‘great distance’.

96. So, I think the public right of way and connectivity is an area which I think has

only just been touched on, to be honest with you, by HS2; we need to look at this in

detail and consult with the locals and all of the people like the Colne Valley regional

park, to make sure that what is put in place actually works in practice. I’ve got three

dogs, my wife and I walk them around these public rights of way all the time. Come

and talk to the locals, see what our concerns are. That’s what we should be doing, and

none of that has been happening. Could I have the next side please?

97. Public rights of way – next slide, sorry. Noise and vibration. I ask the question,

‘Will noise and vibration levels be tested against World Health Organisation

standards?’ My understanding is that those World Health Organisation standards say

that any persistent sound over 40dB can cause irreparable harm.

98. If you look at the sound map, and I’m not sure which of the HS2 exhibits it is, and

in relation to my property, which was marked up as a property which would be affected

dramatically by noise levels when HS2 was running, and during the construction

process, that the minimum level is 40dB. So, are we happy that people should be

exposed to something which is in excess of World Health Organisation standards?

99. Again, sound levels, are they going to be independently assessed? What power

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do we have to do anything about it if they exceed those limits, once the train is running,

what can we do? Is our house a significant observable adverse effect level?

100. In two statements, both made in response to my position, HS2 have said, ‘Our

house is identified as being significantly affected by noise’ on the Environmental

Statement, significantly affected. However, HS2 said that they do not consider it

significant as we are outside the SOAEL. These statements are at odds.

101. So who tested it? Well, HS2 and Government officials, a truly independent body,

I think not. So we need a truly independent noise arbitrator appointed who can

challenge the findings of HS2 and there should be ongoing monitoring of the noise and

vibration levels to determine whether they are going to cause any long term harm to

people living near the line.

102. If we make appeals, what happens? It goes to the Secretary of State. Is he going

to make a decision to stop work on HS2? And I’ll read HS2’s response to this point,

point 19. ‘Essentially, nothing will stop work as the Bill defence scheme under section

8 of the 1990 Act’. So, basically, once work starts, there’s very little we’re going to be

able to do about anything. Next slide please.

103. Dust and air quality. That’s actually my son, who unfortunately, he couldn’t be

here today because he’s studying for his AS levels, but he is an asthma sufferer, so air

quality means a lot of us, and I suspect it means a lot to all the other people living in

Denham. So, the health impact is obviously a big issue.

104. Who is going to measure air quality? Is it going to be independently assessed and

by whom? The suggestion is made that we have resort to the Complaints

Commissioner, in the event that we consider the air quality to be too poor. By then, it’s

already too late. I suspect this is a significant potential for claims against the

Government, potentially for the next 50 years or so, from issues around the question of

air quality.

105. Going back to Pines Field, we know that a great deal of asbestos is buried in that

field. I wasn’t there when it was put in the field, but a lot of people here have been

living in the area for 30 years or more who will confirm that. Who is going to confirm

and guarantee that we will not be affected when it is removed? If there’s no

17

independent assessment to ensure there is no possible health impact to local residents,

how can we have any confidence in the process?

106. The nominated undertaker – and that word may be particularly relevant in this

context – will have only one interest, i.e. making their construction deadlines.

107. Disruption to services. We believe the Colne Valley is a special case, we have

had significant environmental issues in the last couple of years, in the West Hyde,

Tilehouse Lane area with flooding, and some people here were devastated during the

previous winter by flooding which involved raw sewage going into their homes, and

being there for a couple of months. Many properties in the area have no mains

drainage. We don’t have mains drainage, we have a plant which then pumps the

effluent into the hotel next door, De Vere Hotel, and it then goes into their private

sewage system and is then pumped down onto the A412, and it then goes along to the

processing plant in Maple Cross.

108. Do HS2 even know that our pipes exist? Because they are going to go straight

across where the line is going, as it goes down towards the 412. Nobody’s consulted

with us, nobody’s asked us the question, and I am concerned. Also, we’ve got to be

concerns about other utility services to our property, and other properties in Tilehouse

Lane.

109. Hydrology. We had a recent battle in relation to Pines Field, which is next to my

house, and opposite West Hyde. And that battle has been around what I think was an

opportunistic application for gravel extraction on Pines Field, alongside the existing

permission on Denham Park Farm. This went to appeal, and let me just read something

from the Planning Inspectorate’s appeal decision. ‘In addition, and by far the greatest

concern to me, is the potential for the development to give rise to pollution or

contamination of highly sensitive ground water. The National Planning policy

framework does not refer simply to harm to the greenbelt, and any other harm, but to

potential harm. There is potential harm arising from this proposed development, and it

is potentially serious’. So, our local water, believe it or not, is of significant concern to

local residents.

110. In the response to my petition, I think HS2 have basically confirmed that there is

the potential of serious harm to our water supplies, but in those circumstances, we could

18

import water, that’s what it says, we could intercept poor quality water, or we could

treat water. Now, none of those statements actually fills me with any great confidence,

that we can rely upon our water supplies in those circumstances. How can we possibly

believe that our water will be safe? Can I have the next slide please?

111. A lot has already been said about tunnels etc, so I’m not going to add too much to

that debate. I do think if we are looking at a tunnel under the Colne Valley, and I think

that is the only way to save the Colne Valley. Somebody called it, I think when you

came on your visit to the local area, ‘Our Lake District’, and it is very much that. The

views across from Harefield, across to the other side of the Colne Valley are stunning.

Those views would be decimated by the viaduct, first of all, and then by cuttings etc,

going across Pines Field. The only way to avoid that is to have a tunnel and I gather

there’s some concern about continuous tunnel, the topography of the land is such that

the tunnel could emerge closer to the M25 on the other side of the hill, opposite our

house, and it would have a four or 500 metre run, above ground potentially, before it

enters the Chalfont tunnel. So I think that is one which would seriously…

112. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Let’s put your finger on where you think it should

be?

113. MR FOSBERRY: Yes. Just about there. I think that option would preserve and

save the Colne Valley, it has lots of other issues around it, of course, in terms of spoil

but I believe that it is a viable solution. Could I have the next slide please?

114. Construction traffic; again, we’ve heard a lot about traffic movements in the area.

I’ll just give you one simple example. My wife turns right out of our house into

Tilehouse Lane, every morning to take our son to school. It is a distance of a little over

half a mile to the end of Tilehouse Lane where it exits onto the A412. On bad days,

that half a mile can take 40 minutes because of the volume of traffic coming off the

A412 who are trying to get off the A412 because it’s backed up from the Denham

Green junction, which is a distance of almost a mile and a half. Obviously, traffic

trying to exit the only option they have, is to go onto Tilehouse Lane.

115. The A412 also is a relief road for the M25 and quite often it is closed between

Junction 17 and 18; that is the only way in which traffic can be diverted off the M25 in

that area. We had the addition of the gravel extraction lorries, with the addition of the

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lorries from HS2, the next eight to 10 years in the Denham area, maybe 15 years, are

going to be an absolute nightmare, and it doesn’t really matter to me, what sort of travel

plan anybody puts in place, it is going to be a disaster area. How is the area going to

cope? I have absolutely no idea. What traffic management scheme might work? I

suppose if you make all the traffic from HS2 operate between the hours of perhaps one

in the morning and five in the morning, you may have some chance of alleviating the

problem, but that’s not going to happen in the real world.

116. We do need a traffic management scheme but we do need an independent

assessment of that traffic management scheme, and I would urge that local residents

should be involved in that process, because we are the ones who actually have to

experience it.

117. I’d like now to talk about compensation. I’d like to introduce James, who is one

of the owners of Gibbs Gillespie estate agents. James.

118. MR GIBBS: My business is a medium sized firm of estate agents with 11

branches. We are based in north west London, specifically covering the HS2 blighted

areas of South Ruislip, Ruislip, Ickenham, Harefield, Denham, West Hyde etc. I’m not

here today to complain about the areas where I can’t sell houses, although this is an

issue. I’m here today because I feel desperately sorry for those affected by HS2.

119. MR FOSBERRY: Now, James – do you mind if I ask questions…?

120. CHAIR: Get your money’s worth.

121. MR FOSBERRY: HS2 in various documents have stated that some properties

may be affected by blight, what’s your experience?

122. MR GIBBS: Absolutely. Where HS2 is routed near homes, these homes are

affected by blight. In September 2013, we received an email from local MP Nick Hurd,

asking if blight was real. This really exasperates me. If a potential 250 mile an hour

train frequently passes your house within 100 metres, 500 metres, trust me, it is going to

suffer with blight. How loud is a 250 mile an hour train? Does anyone know, yet?

123. MR FOSBERRY: Do you have any examples of properties you’ve been dealing

with that have been affected by blight?

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124. MR GIBBS: Yes, quite a few. Since HS2 was announced, we have been called

out to several roads affected by HS2. In the areas of Ruislip, Herlwyn Avenue,

Roundways, West End Lane, Sharps Lane in Ickenham, The Greenway, Hoylake

Crescent and others. Buyers, if not initially aware of HS2 are soon put off when they

find out about it. Surveyors will mention HS2 in their reports. Searches will show HS2

and solicitors will recommend that the buyer is aware of the full implications of HS2

before proceeding, if the property is close to HS2.

125. CHAIR: Can I ask, isn’t it normal these days, if one’s purchasing a house, to get

the people you’re buying off to fill out a form disclosing any information that they may

know which may have an impact, a school being built, and airport being built,

presumably when somebody’s aware of HS2, they don’t put it on the form, potentially,

they can be sued, can’t they?

126. MR GIBBS: Yes, that’s later on, when the purchase is actually proceeding

though.

127. CHAIR: They’re put off before then, yes, of course.

128. MR GIBBS: Yes, they would know about that at the early stages of viewing.

129. MR FOSBERRY: Properties on your books close to HS2, have you found them

totally unsalable, what’s the –?

130. MR GIBBS: Absolutely correct. Houses close to HS2 railway are unsalable at

the correct price. There will always be exceptions, and someone may proceed with a

purchase. But most people will stay well clear.

131. MR FOSBERRY: And would you think, from the point of view of the

construction period, that we’ve got a long construction period, 2026, 27, do you think

that blight will continue for the whole of that construction period?

132. MR GIBBS: Yes I do. Certainly while the construction is proceeding, this is my

opinion, it will exacerbate the blight even more. I hear the build may be a 10 year

process, this is truly horrific for some home owners, while some buyers do purchase on

main roads, on the whole, these are much harder properties to sell, resulting in lower

prices.

21

133. MR FOSBERRY: In my job, what I do on a day to day basis is help my clients

plan their financial futures. Now, obviously, I’ve found it quite exasperating that I

can’t do it for myself because of my biggest asset is obviously caught up in this blight

situation. But the baby boomer generation, later life planning, planning for care costs,

etc, is a major part of what I do now. I see more and more people trading down in order

to release cash to pay for those sort of issues. Have you seen that trend?

134. MR GIBBS: Absolutely. It is quite normal that when children have flown the

nest, that the parents approach retirement, and when the parents approach retirement,

it’s quite normal to consider a downsize. To move to something smaller or cheaper to

run and to have some funds left over in which to enjoy in their retirement. I feel so

sorry for these people who, over the years have struggled to buy their homes, have then

invested further with extensions, new windows, kitchens etc, they’ve done their best

over the years to enhance its value. In most cases, their homes will be their biggest

investment ever. Then, to have all their dreams dashed by the proposed HS2.

135. MR FOSBERRY: Have you, as a business, made any decisions not to take

properties onto your books because of HS2?

136. MR GIBBS: Yes. It is rare for an estate agent to refuse an instruction to sell a

house. You don’t ever want to turn away business, do you? But, I personally would

not want to consider approaching a home within half a mile, or a mile of HS2. And

there are homes just 100 metres or more from it. They are unsalable at the current

price. So, yes, we have politely refused instructions to sell houses. There’s no point in

wasting everyone’s time and money.

137. MR FOSBERRY: Now, this is possibly a more difficult question. You’ve

obviously looked at the HS2 compensation scheme. What are your views about it?

138. MR GIBBS: Quite strong, as I’m sure you’ll think. As I understand it, the

current schemes are terribly inadequate, or the modern word is ‘woeful’. The average

buyer is not going to take the risk of paying full price, and risk buying if the value if

their home will be hit substantially if this scheme goes ahead. There is the possibility

of the investor type of buyer who may proceed if the price is right, and gets something

like a 20% reduction in price. In my opinion, 20% of the home value is the amount of

compensation that should be paid to those with properties close to HS2. Not the £7,500

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to £22,500. That’s just appalling in my opinion.

139. And for those who pay premium prices for a view, and now finding HS2 are

coming past, even if it is 400, 500, 600 metres away, they should also be considered for

property blight compensation. There are homes situated so close that hits on the

property value of up to 50% could be expected. This is likely to occur in homes of a

higher value. Surely those home owners are entitled to be compensated for the

difference? It is a terrible and stressful time for lots of people. It is such as shame that

there seem to be so many cuts proposed in so many services, and the Government

seems to want to spend so much on this one scheme to increase the flow of even more

people to the south east.

140. MR FOSBERRY: Thank you James. James has already stated, I think in HS2’s

response to my petition, they made the comment that some properties may be blighted;

there is no ‘may’ about it. Properties like mine simply cannot be sold. Nobody in their

right mind would buy my property.

141. CHAIR: The Government are buying quite a lot under the various schemes.

142. MR FOSBERRY: Unfortunately, I don’t fall under any of the direct

compensation schemes because of my distance from the line.

143. CHAIR: No, no, no, you do.

144. MR FOSBERRY: The Need to Sell scheme?

145. CHAIR: Yes. You started off by saying you had health issues and a variety of

other issues.

146. MR FOSBERRY: Yes.

147. CHAIR: Which is one of the material reasons for –

148. MR FOSBERRY: To sell because of my health?

149. CHAIR: You have to make a case.

150. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If you have a Need to Sell –

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151. MR FOSBERRY: Why is it not called a ‘right to sell’?

152. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We’ve been living this for some time. Many

questions in your mind have been in our minds. The Secretary of State has brought

forward, under the title, ‘Need to Sell’, so let’s leave it there. Essentially, if a resident

home owner has a Need to Sell, the advice they should take is to apply under the Need

to Sell, make an application, giving the reasons why they have a Need to Sell. If it’s

accepted, the person doesn’t have to move out straight away. If it’s not accepted, it’s a

different situation, but the thing to do is make the best case that can be made as to why

the reasons are compelling. You may say, and others may think that that is not the way

it ought to be; that is the way it is, it’s better than it was last year when the Need to Sell

scheme wasn’t there, only the exceptional hardship with an urgent Need to Sell. So,

that’s where we are.

153. MR GIBBS: We would argue that should be improved further with more of a

guarantee of a house being purchased, and not going towards a committee who may

grant the purchase rights.

154. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We don’t yet know what the experience has been of

those who have applied.

155. CHAIR: That’s why we’re going to review the scheme after the General Election

if we’re still all here. We will see how it’s getting on; and it’s a discretionary

Department of Transport scheme, but we will push and nudge and kick, if we have to,

to make sure it’s fairer than the original scheme.

156. MR FOSBERRY: Will the results of that review be publically available?

157. CHAIR: Well, we’re a public body here, and if we’re not happy, you’ll hear very

clearly.

158. MR FOSBERRY: As long as it’s all in open forum, that’s the point.

159. MR BELLINGHAM: You’re being recorded, as we speak.

160. MR FOSBERRY: Good.

161. CHAIR: And what you have to remember is, ultimately, we can write

24

compensation into the Bill.

162. MR FOSBERRY: Right. Just one final point in relation to the nominated

undertakers, I think all house owners require or should be entitled to indemnities from

the nominated undertakers that they will take responsibility for any costs incurred as a

result of damage to our properties structurally or to services as a result of the

construction process.

163. CHAIR: Are you almost finished with your?

164. MR FOSBERRY: Not quite.

165. CHAIR: Okay.

166. MR FOSBERRY: Almost there because I’m going to my conclusion slide.

167. CHAIR: It’s alright. Well, do your conclusions, then we have a private session

with the MPs. I just noticed that the Speaker has crept in.

168. MR FOSBERRY: If HS2 goes ahead, we want dialogue with homeowners;

ensure that the public rights of way are agreed with local authorities, local residents and

officers of the Colne Valley Regional Park; consult on dust and air quality with all

impacted parties and have a truly independent review process; ensure that the utilities

are not impacted, with penalties applied HS2 if they are; guarantee water quality, work

to stop if water quality is impacted because it’s so critical; Colne Valley tunnel to the

M25 to preserve the Colne Valley SSSI; traffic scheme for the area to be subject to

independent review; and, ideally, home owners to be compensated at full market value

should they choose to sell their property back under the need to sell or, what I prefer to

call, the right to sell, scheme. Thank you.

169. CHAIR: Okay. I’m afraid you’re going to have to wait for your response from

HS2 because we’re going to go into private session briefly just to have a chat with the

other Buckinghamshire MPs about how we’re going to be marching through

25

Buckinghamshire. So, possibly 20 minutes, at the most, 30 minutes.

170. MR FOSBERRY: That’s fine.

171. CHAIR: So, thank you very much. Order, order. Can you please to clear the

room please?

Public sitting suspended for a private session

On resuming—

172. CHAIR: Sorry about that. Kept you waiting outside; a bit like being back at

school, Mr Fosberry. What we’re going to do is we’re going to have the response from

HS2 to Mr Fosberry’s petition. Then we will move to Elizabeth Hall, Gary Davis and

David Gauke, MP, after that. And then we’ll get back on the programme, which is then

Sally Cakebread. So, Mr Mould?

173. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): Yes. There was a reference to some concerns about

land contamination at Pynesfield. I’m just going to show you broadly the area you’re

concerned with. It’s the area which is being shown with the cursor now. At West

Hyde. We’re aware of that. Historically, there was some tipping in that area. We have

details of that available on the plan and plainly any contamination that needs to be

addressed as part of the construction of the railway will be dealt with in accordance

with the requirements of the regulations, including, if there is asbestos present, then

clearly there are very strict controls on the handling and disposal of that material.

174. The position with regards groundwater. I think the petitioner actually read out to

you part of the response on that as set out in the petition response document which you

heard earlier from another petitioner that we are in continuing and close dialogue with

Affinity Water in relation to securing the proper protection of groundwater resources in

this area and elsewhere within Affinity Water’s remit. In relation to the various points

are raised by the petitioner about consultation and monitoring on the planning for the

construction work in this area, again, I have referred to the local environmental

management plan regime and I’ve also referred to the traffic management plan regime.

26

I think it might help if I just remind you again one of the points which was made in the

information paper G2, which is dealing with community relations and 3.1 of that

document, which deals with community relations strategy, which the nominated

undertaker will be contractually obliged to develop. And that would include monitoring

and managing contractor and subcontractor compliance with undertakings and

performance of commitments, local agreements and specific community requirements

throughout the project and ensuring that local residents, occupiers, businesses, local

authorities and parish council are informed in advance of works that are due to take

place and are taking place locally. And in practice, that will involve, for example, the

production of advanced information sheets describing the works to be carried out,

explaining the expected affect of the works and explaining the measures to be taken

locally to minimise or to mitigate any adverse impacts. And those will be circulated in

advance.

175. There will be a liaison plan, which will be developed in conjunction with local

authorities, listing, well, it is described here as communication mechanism, which I

think it means help lines and similar. And that liaison plan will be developed in

conjunction with the local environmental management plans and there will be, in the

case of emergency works where less time is available to give advance notice, as much

notice will be given to local communities of the works. So, the idea is that the

nominated undertaker contractually will be required, as part of their contractual

obligations, to give a good notice to local communities of the works that are

programmed in their area; to do so periodically, so people are kept aware of the way the

scheme is developing as the construction takes place. And there will be contact points,

phone numbers, information sheets, which will obviously sit alongside the complaints

arrangements that we told you about in the past. This is designed to be a scheme that

will be exposed to public view in that way. And that will be part of the contractual

obligations which those who are building the railway will have to comply with.

176. CHAIR: Thank you.

177. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): I think that probably covers in a nutshell the points that

have been made.

27

178. CHAIR: Mr Fosberry?

179. MR FOSBERRY: I didn’t hear any mention there anything to do with my

concerns over noise. Noise levels. And the fact that they are above WHO

recommended standards.

180. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): If you’d like me to deal with that, I’m sorry, I’ve dealt

with that on a number of occasions. The predictions for your property are set out in the

pack. And we’ll put that up. The contour is at P5348. And your property is one which

we predict to experience a moderate adverse affect from the operation of the railway.

And if we turn to P5350, our assessment of the existing baseline noise levels are at the

top of this slide; daytime ambient noise at 50 decibels, night time 44.

181. And then the LAmax, which broadly equates, with respect to the gentleman

yesterday, to peak noise levels, highest night time noise there you see at 66. And then,

if we go to the bottom the page, we can see the predictions for the noise impact on your

property of the operation of the railway. From the proposed scheme only, daytime, 57

decibels, night time, 48. A maximum of 70. And then the predicted noise environment

with the scheme as part of the ambient noise levels at the date of operation, we see that

it’s 58 decibels during the day; 50 decibels during the night and that is compared with

the position without the scheme, the baseline assessment, which gives rise to a predicted

increase in noise over baseline at the date, of operation of the scheme of 7 decibels

during the day and 5 decibels during the night. And it’s those increases which give rise

to the assessment your property would experience moderate adverse affect. It’s the

change that gives rise to the impact there.

182. MR FOSBERRY: So, although the environmental statement says that it’s

significant?

183. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): Well, if it is assessed to be significant. It’s a moderate

adverse affect. And that is within the –

184. MR FOSBERRY: Moderate adverse affect –

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185. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): Yes.

186. MR FOSBERRY: – is significant.

187. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): And the scheme’s response to that, as a matter of

design policy, as I’ve explained to the committee before, is set out in our information

paper E20. It is something that forms part of the commitments that the scheme will be

obliged to fulfil, is that as you are above the threshold of significance, if you will, the

nominated undertaker will be obliged to look at taking steps to seek to reduce the affect

on you. In other words, in this case, to seek to limit the increase in noise insofar as its

reasonably practical to do so. That, in terms, means that he will be looking, as part of

the detailed design, to see whether there are measures that can reasonably be taken at

reasonable cost in order to seek to limit the noise effects of the railway upon your

property.

188. MR FOSBERRY: Will you by telling me about that?

189. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): Yes. That will be something that you will be made

aware of.

190. CHAIR: Yes. Okay? A brief, final comment, Mr Fosberry?

191. MR FOSBERRY: Yes. I think the only point I would like to conclude on is that

for a lot of people we’re not going to get full compensation because obviously if we’re

going to move, we’re going to have to pay things like stamp duty etc. Ultimately,

people who are going into the need to sell scheme etc. are going to pay a price. And I

just wonder how many people sitting around here would be happy to pay two, three

hundred pounds to the erection of a railway system which, for many of us, I won’t be

around when the thing is up and running, we will never use. That’s the bottom line, I

suppose.

192. CHAIR: Thank you. Thank you very much.

29

Elizabeth Hall and Gary Davis

193. CHAIR: Right, we now have Elizabeth Hall, Gary Davis for witness

David Gauke. Right. Welcome to you all. We have visited the area and seen where the

construction compound is. Do you want to start off Mrs Hall or do you want?

194. MRS HALL: Okay, yes. Thank you. First of all also, can I just say thank you for

inviting us today to be able to tell you our little story. I think I’m the first person from

this area. I think I heard a lot about Denham so far. Our little area is very tiny in

comparison and others you’ve seen as you went through. Effectively, West Hyde in

itself is just one long lane, which is the Old Uxbridge Road. The construction site runs

parallel with the length of the whole of this lane, to give you, obviously, the size, as

you’ve seen.

195. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can I suggest we put up 5410, which will give us?

That shows, I think, what you’re telling us about.

196. MRS HALL: Yes, it does. As you can see, that is the first position. If you could

go to the next slide, A, please?

197. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: You can turn it upside down, don’t worry.

198. MRS HALL: Sorry?

199. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Carry on.

200. MRS HALL: Carry on?

201. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We’ll reverse it in our minds.

202. MRS HALL: Alright. The address, as you can see, is 2, Colne Cottages. The

above property has been in my family since 1941. The front of the building is believed

30

to be nearing 300 years old. It was an old roadside cafe where riders changed their

horses years ago. And has an old 60 foot brick cesspit to the side of the property under

the garden serving numbers 1 and 2 Colne Cottages. The property has been home to

my grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles and cousins over the years. And I, myself, have

lived there for the last 28 years. Gary and I both work full time – me in facilities fleet

management, which is only 3 minutes away; Gary is working for a logistics company.

From our calculations on the maps, we are 50 metres from the construction site, 275

metres from the Colne Valley viaduct, 900 metres from the Chiltern Tunnel and 325

from the centre line of the track, which is what HS2 says. I’ve had various

correspondence with HS2, although construction is still an issue for me as set out

below. If we do have slide A, yet?

203. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I think it’s the next one.

204. MRS HALL: Yes. Which just shows you the aerial view and, of course, as you

can see, the property there. Can I have the next slide as well, please? And again this is

the view from the top of Tilehouse Lane to my property, overlooking the construction

site. The property is very close to the main construction site, as you can see. And

currently there are no photo montage projections of my property showing this at all.

The construction site view is all we can see from our windows, looking front right and

left. You’ll also see in photos later on that foliage is very sparse on our side of the road.

If we could go to the next slide please? Or slide C? This is the view from the bedroom

windows of the property over the construction site. And the next slide as well, please?

That’s going slightly to the right hand side as you can see the length of the field.

205. MR THORNTON: Just remind me. How busy is that road, the A142? We did

drive along it?

206. MRS HALL: Yes.

207. MR THORNTON: Because we then went up a small lane to the bridge over the

M25.

31

208. MRS HALL: I will go on to more detail on the traffic later.

209. MR THORNTON: You’ll tell us in a moment? Right. Thank you.

210. MRS HALL: I know you’ve had a load of traffic, I know, but this is a little bit

specific to this particular part. If I could go to slide E, please? This is just the entrance

to the front of the property, as you can still see, straight over the field, into the

construction site. And the next slide as well, please? This is the view from the 412.

This is a quiet road and you can clearly see the property looking across to the boundary

the other side which is where the construction site is going to be. And the next slide,

please? Again, this is our side of the road. You can clearly see our garden and the

distance over to the field the other side and see how very sparse the foliage is on our

side of the road. We also only have one tree in front of the property, as you can see.

Also, we are, as you can see, we’re parallel with the construction site. The noise, the

view and the dust will make relaxing in our garden unbearable. Our washing and our

cars are going to be dirty from the dust, which also aggravates a skin condition which I

have. The above cabin also doubles as a studio/summerhouse and for relaxing in the

garden. The future view from this area over a large construction site will be horrible.

Our suggestion, as other people have mentioned here, would be to continue the tunnel

that has been proposed, straight into the M25, rather than coming up in West Hyde at

all, if that’s a possibility.

211. The noise itself. The construction activities from this will most certainly be heard

and will disturb us. The area is generally quiet either side of the rush hour and

becoming even quieter after 7.00 p.m. during the week and into the evening. Weekends

are considerably quieter than that. I do hear sounds from further away which means I

will definitely be able to hear this construction site in front of me. Certainly, over and

above the levels that we normally used to, and having lived here for 28 years, I know

exactly the sounds that I am used to. Sound equipment was initially left at my property

some time ago. Unfortunately, it did malfunction. I am now told that my baseline

levels are taken from two properties either side of me rather than from my property. On

noise, I have a suggestion which we have read. I wanted to know a little more about the

silent reversing beeps, which I believe are called white noise. I’ve also noticed the

32

landscaping and fence barrier request, the latter would be to go further around with no

gap, which I’ll come to later on as well. Vibrations are also a concern with the front of

the property being so old. And, as I’ve already mentioned, I have a large cesspit under

the garden, so I would seek reassurance that this would not be affected, especially, with

cess and possible environment issues which carry quite a heavy weight.

212. The working hours we know will be operational 24 x 7 for the Chiltern Tunnel,

but there are also many other out of hours activities highlighted for other areas within

these construction compounds. The viaduct, which we now know may not be

happening – all these are going to affect us considerably. We both have to hold our full

time jobs and this affect on our sleep and our ability to do this properly. In addition, we

have had issues with the recent closure of the M25 at nightfall road works, which has

brought vehicles queuing outside of our property through the night and stopped us both

from sleeping, which was a real eye opener for us both of what’s to come. If I could go

now to slide J, please? This is a typical day time view at the bottom of the hill over the

A412 when I leave work on a Friday, this sometimes happens on a Thursday as well,

about 3.30 p.m. on a Friday.

213. MR MEARNS: We’ve seen many similar things from other petitioners, Mrs Hall.

161. MRS HALL: You have seen? Okay. That’s fine. If I could just move swiftly on

to the next one then if, which is K? And again you would have probably seen this,

although this is specifically the view from our bedroom window, which is traffic going

slowly in both directions. Slide M, please? And this is the comparison on an normal,

quiet Saturday morning. My full time job, as I’ve mentioned, is 3 minutes away by car.

But, the A412 queues outside the property and over the hill to Denham weekdays and

p.m. It also queues on the A412 turning right up Tilehouse Lane. And this will be

closed, as you know.

162. Thus to avoid the queue on the hill – therefore, I now have to travel to right up

through Harefield and double back on myself, increasing my journey considerably

above to get to work, which is increasingly my journey tenfold. The traffic is also quite

bad and having lost my sick father last year, after mentioning in my petition about him

33

having to go to the hospital, I still need to get up to her regularly to be able to attend to

her after losing my father. View L, please? L. This is a typical view of the Old

Uxbridge Road. The top of the Old Uxbridge Road, near my property, is already busy

with lorries turning and heavy traffic tends to come down into the lane and sleep at

night. Lorries also park here waiting to deliver. They also turn out into the A412

which is already a serious problem. When the M25 is blocked these vehicles back up

along the front and then drivers turn down into the Old Uxbridge Road, flying past my

property, thinking they can get out the other end. When they realise it’s a dead end,

they speed back even faster. This is already having safety issues for us residents.

214. Could we please make a suggestion? We know that all the heavy construction

traffic will be coming into the site via the M25 slip roads. Could it be asked that all of

the traffic came through on these slip roads down straight into the area rather than come

down onto the A412? Especially, with the M25 being blocked and adding to this traffic

which then pushes them down into the lower lane and down past our properties.

215. Could I also go to slide zero, or O, please. I notice here, as you can see the

property here, the bund which is in front of us, I seem to remember seemed to be a little

further over to the right hand side, where the balancing pond also is or was, further

over. I believe from memory that the balancing pond was moved slightly over to the

left when it was asked of Pynesfield to do so some time ago when the HS2 was

supposedly going to be starting a bit earlier and to make way for that, it was moved

over slightly. This seemed to move the bund as well from what I can see, which now

doesn’t take it right in front of the property. I just wanted to ask more about that.

216. Slide P, please. You can see the pond here, which was slightly further over to the

right hand side. The barrier also here, I just wanted to ask a question, as I can see it’s

highlighted in a mauve type colour. I just wanted to make sure, it seems parallel with

the property. I just wanted to find out for sure that these two barriers they seem to go

one higher than the other but don’t necessarily meet in the middle. I just wanted to

make sure that was going to be the case. Could we also suggest here as you can see

right in front of the property there is planting to the left hand side of me, but nothing in

front of my house and as you saw earlier there was only one tree in front of the

property.

34

217. Just to mention on floods, I know this has been touched on earlier, we have the

balancing pond though we just need to know that this will be sufficient for us. We have

had serious problems as you know with sewage and with flooding recently. If this

balancing pond were to overflow this would come straight over the road down into our

property. We’ve already touched on the asbestos so I won’t go over that as well other

than we did find in the reports from Pynesfield, the lab tests, that there was – apart from

the asbestos there was strong odour and gases also to be found. And again we would

need assurance that these airborne asbestos gases and other pieces that will be disturbed

when this is taken away that our health will not be affected.

218. In summary, whilst we’re not opposed to HS2 in principle and we were not

planning to sell at this time we do feel that being this close to two major construction

compounds either side of us, the Colne Valley viaduct and the Chiltern tunnel, both

with overnight accommodation for approximately 250 to 300 workers, plus associated

satellite sites and associated works is one huge building site compound right on our

doorstep. This we believe will affect our quality of life and enjoyment of our property,

and garden most considerably. We believe the above activities are certainly going to

affect us through construction with the 24/7 working of the Chiltern tunnel and the

constant internal travel within these sites and various other out of hours scheduled

works highlighted from for many of the main satellite compounds. We have also

recently been subject to lack of sleep and tiredness whilst working with the M25 closure

as mentioned above, which did affect our ability to do our jobs for that week. Night

construction traffic along the normally quiet A412 at this time will also do the same.

The additional population and overnight accommodation from both sites will also

swamp a small village, which could pose an additional security risk to residents.

219. We adore our quiet little sanctuary and feel this will be lost totally from the

construction, noise/dust pollution and population. Dust being a health issue for both of

us as mentioned in the petition. And sheer size of this huge construction compound in

front of our property is the equivalent of a small county moving into our quiet little

village. This making a completely different place to live, and not the same quiet village

life we have been used to and treasure. In view of the above we really do feel the

enjoyment of our property, quality of life, surroundings and health would be seriously

35

affected. Our surrounding will become completely different and bear no resemblance

to the previous enjoyment for the last 28 years. We feel we are unable to live in our

property during this construction period and continue to function in our full time jobs

properly, especially with me being a light sleeper. And therefore feel we would need to

seek alternative accommodation through construction. I feel HS2 should help us along

with this with temporary housing, or even our rent our property maybe for HS2

executives, it may be helpful to them. This would enable us to move away during this

time. Failing this, and as I feel so strongly, the only alternative would be for me to

sadly put up my family home and lose the family history since 1941, which is not

something I consider lightly. Even if we could sell the property, as it’s being so

severely blighted in the area of West Hyde as has already been mentioned.

220. This whole situation has been thrust upon us through no fault of our own, and we

feel we should be getting more assurance by way of help and compensation from HS2

for the people who hadn’t wanted to sell, and are left in an unbearable situation and

surroundings. We now feel trapped in the sense that we are not be able to move away

or able to sell our homes as a result of the blightedness and value. That concludes…

221. CHAIR: Thank you. Do you want to add anything, Mr Davis, at all, briefly?

222. MR DAVIS: Only the fact that I work in the support industry for the building

trade. I go to a lot of large construction sites during my time, part of my job. I’m now

faced with the prospect that I’m going to be living on a building site. So I’m going to

be on a building site 24/7. I don’t think it’s acceptable for us. I think that we’ve got to

move away or something’s got to help us.

223. MRS HALL: If I could just add one tiny little thing to that, that is the only view

we have at the moment. We have other business behind which we don’t we hear very

much, being behind us, but we also have construction to the right. The only pleasing

view is the field at the moment.

224. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Which you lose.

225. CHAIR: Okay, thank you for that. Your witness, Mr Gauke could you…

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226. MR GAUKE: Thank you, Mr Syms. And first of can I say I’m grateful to appear

as a witness for Ms Hall and Mr Davis today. Also can I make clear that I’m appearing

in my capacity as a Member of Parliament, Member of Parliament for South West

Hertfordshire, not, for the avoidance of doubt, as a Treasury Minister. And also, as a

further point of clarification, both as a Minister and as a Member of Parliament I am

supporting the HS2 project. My constituency commute from Berkhamsted and Tring,

in my view, will face significant difficulties if there is not an increase in supply over the

next many years, given increased demand. And the commuter service to my

constituents living in Berkhamsted and Tring will deteriorate if something is not done

to increase capacity. Nonetheless, I appear here in support of my constituents. And I

would particularly highlight two issues which have already been touched upon.

227. The first is the impact of the construction compound. My understanding – I say

‘compound’, I think it could well be a number of compounds within this area. And it’s

one of the largest developments along the HS2 route. It is likely to be there for some

time. My understanding is that eight and a half years is the anticipated period of time.

That is likely to have a very significant impact upon those of my constituents who live

in West Hyde. In particular I would make the point that I think Liz and Gary’s house is

the closest to the actual route of the track, as it were. But they’re more than 300m – if

only just more than 300m away from that route. But there are a number of my

constituents who are going to be extremely close to that compound, and that will impact

upon them.

228. And I suppose my purpose today is to make the point that they might not be living

very, very close to the line but nonetheless they’re going to have impact over a long

period of time. And to seek clarity in terms of the compensation that is available and

should be available to people such s Liz and Gary who face significant difficulties as

you have already heard. And one can talk about the dust, the traffic. To come back to

your question earlier, Mr Bellingham, the A412 is really variable in terms of road use.

And as a local resident I very much confirm what you have heard. There are times

where it is very, very quiet indeed and feels more like a country road. There are other

times, particularly when there is disruption on the M25, where it can be extremely busy

indeed. So I would very much support the representations that you’ve heard of the

37

difficulties that will be faced with traffic. And as I say noise and dust, and 24/7

working in this area, is likely to cause considerable difficulty.

229. The second point I would make is more longer term. Which is an issue again

perhaps of clarification. And I’m not sure that local residents have yet had the

reassurance that they probably need in terms of flood risk. It is likely that a very great –

large amount of soil is going to be disposed of along the hills to the north of the A412,

increasing the gradient and therefore increasing the risk of water running off. I’m

pleased that there is a balancing pond contained within the plans. I think my question,

and I don’t anticipate a detailed answer today, but my question really is can we – or

request, can we ensure that that balancing pond is sufficient? West Hyde is prone to

flooding. There was significant flooding in February last year. As you’ve heard

essentially West Hyde consists of one lane with houses along that lane, all at a low

level. There’s a lot of water ponds and so on in the area. And therefore it is susceptible

to flooding. As things stand at the moment I would not want to see that risk

exacerbated as a consequence of the construction there.

230. So those are my essential two points to make. There is going to be a huge amount

of disruption for a small and tranquil village as a consequence of the construction site.

And with a roads infrastructure that is not going to be well suited to additional lorries,

etc., etc. So keen to see that addressed as you’ve heard in terms of noise and dust. And

then the longer term impact. I know you’ve also received evidence with regard to the

asbestos risk. I don’t intend to dwell on that today. But certainly in terms of the

increased gradient will, without mitigating measures, result in a greater flood risk. I

know there are mitigating measures. My question is: are those mitigating measures

satisfactory? So again, can I express my gratitude to you, Mr Syms, for permitting me

to be a witness today on behalf of my constituents who I think have raised perfectly

reasonable points and I hope action can be taken to address the concerns that they have

set out.

231. CHAIR: How many people live in West Hyde. Along the road?

232. MR DAVIS: About 110.

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233. MRS HALL: Not many.

234. MR BELLINGHAM: So 40 houses we’re talking about?

235. MR GAUKE: About 60 houses.

236. CHAIR: Most of the Denham people were telling me actually it’s directly the

most affected in the area because of that massive construction site.

237. MR DAVIS: Yes.

238. MR BELLINGHAM: And presumably it’s the last village in your constituency.

239. MR GAUKE: Yes, it’s on the very border of the constituency.

240. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: South west by south west.

241. MR GAUKE: Yes. Hertfordshire doesn’t get more south west.

242. CHAIR: I presume, Mr Mould, that construction site there is because there’s

nowhere else you could do it and do the tunnels.

243. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, I think I’ve made clear that’s where – I can

certainly answer the second question which Mr Gauke posed, which is can we ensure

that the balancing pond will be sufficient to provide – to do its job, effectively. And the

answer is yes. We will do that.

244. CHAIR: Did you want to move the balancing pond? Sorry, Ms Hall. You

mentioned the balancing pond opposite your property. Did you want it moved?

245. MRS HALL: What I’d like to know was if it – I seem to remember it being a bit

further along this way, which brought the bund back in front of my property.

246. MR GAUKE: I think it’s the issue to do with the bund, and I think there’s a slight

39

risk that there will be, if you like, two barriers and that there might be a gap in the

middle. Whereas I think at an earlier point the bunds overlapped, thus preventing–

247. MRS HALL: The bund down the pond used to come further to the right.

248. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Can I deal with this?

249. CHAIR: Sorry, you deal with it.

250. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Let me just explain–

251. MR MEARNS: What we’ve got at the moment are a number of plans there. In

terms of where a balancing pond might be, where a pond might be. And if there are

concerns that the balancing pond would flood the road and subsequently Ms Hall and

Mr Davis’s property, could a bund not be a solution to the balancing pond flooding the

road?

252. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The balancing pond will be constructed so that it

doesn’t flood the road. How that is achieved will be a matter for detailed design. But

we are going to build a balancing pond so that it is able to accommodate – do its job to

do a standard, which I think we told you was to the requisite flood risk standard that the

Environment Agency require of us, and they will be responsible under the bill for

regulating us and make sure that we achieve that.

253. But in terms of the interaction between barriers – earthworks and noise barriers,

and other features, so as to provide a measure of noise and visual screening, I can help

you with that. I think it’s probably sensible to look at the final position and then work

back to the construction phase. So if we start with P5417. This is the familiar noise

contour map. And you can see the petitioners’ property outlined in red, and the road

just in front of them, the A412. If we bring the cursor down to the railway line itself, at

this point – if we can take the curser to the left, that’s right. So as the railway is running

down from the – having emerged from the Chiltern tunnel portal, it runs in cutting

along the section that I’m pointing out now. And as you can see the effect of the

earthworks, including a fairly extensive area of mounding that is part of the

40

construction here, is to create a seven to 15m high noise barrier. That’s through

earthworks rather than a fence.

254. Now as the railway comes down towards the start of the viaduct it does come,

momentarily, onto the level, onto grade, and then it goes onto an embankment as it

approaches the viaduct. But as you can see, at the point at which it emerges from the

cutting and comes to grade three metre noise barriers are proposed on either side of the

railway line, to provide noise attenuation. And you can see that the earthwork barrier

and the – overlaps the noise fence so as to ensure there’s no gap in the sound

attenuation that is provided at this point. And so the combination of the earthworks

and the noise fencing is – that’s what’s proposed by way of noise screening. And then

if you forward to–

255. MRS HALL: Could I ask where we’d have the barriers, it says on there, the

drawing said it could be either barriers or landscaping. Which is it?

256. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Here, as I sort of explained, as you’re running down

from the Chiltern tunnel portal initially it’s going to be earthworks, landscaping.

257. MRS HALL: Not a barrier.

258. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Not a barrier. But that will have the same effect as a

barrier because it will effectively – what the seven to 15m shows is the effect will be

that it will provide seven to 15m high noise barrier between the railway and your

property. And then as the railway comes out of cutting and towards the viaduct then the

noise barrier is…We move away from earthworks to the noise fence, which is the three

metre structure that you see there. And the combined effect of those, and the distance

between your property and the railway, is shown on P4519 – well, 4520 is better,

actually, gives you a summary of the effects. The operational assessment you see there,

that’s from 2026 onwards, that’s with the railway running. And you can see that we’re

producing that the effect of the railway will be – there will be a slight change in noise

levels at your property.

259. MRS HALL: Where were these noises levels taken from?

41

260. MR MOULD QC (DfT): This is based on baseline measurements and predictions

which, as I think you said, were from neighbouring properties.

261. MRS HALL: Yeah, so that reference number is from my property, I recognise

that, so it wouldn’t have been from that would it?

262. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. So anyway this is – we’re confident that this is a

reliable basis for predicting noise effects on your property. And you can see that

without the railway in 2020 – sorry the effect of introducing the railway into the

environment in 2026 will be to increase noise levels during the day time, the ambient

noise levels, from about 54 to about 57. And during the night time from about 47 to

about 49. That’s an increase of about two decibels, which as the Committee’s been told

by our expert will be just about noticeable but it will be relatively insignificant. So

we’re not saying that there won’t be – there may be a perceptible change, but it will be

on the margin of what is perceptible. We made clear, we’re certainly not saying to

people that they won’t hear the trains. I just want to yet again dispose of that canard.

263. MRS HALL: I suppose the construction is my main issue, rather than the train

anyway.

264. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. Anyway, so that’s the – now if you turn then to

the visual position, which I know you’re concerned about as well, if we go back to page

5414, which is a familiar slide. We’ve just superimposed on it some cross-sections.

Now if you just see, there’s your property. There’s the mounding and the balancing

pond and the railway in cutting, and we’ve drawn a cross-section looking northwards

along the line of your property. And if we turn to the next page, 5415, we can see that

cross-section. And you can see the effect of the mounding, and also some screen

planting that we’re proposing, both immediately to the south east of the railway line on

the mounding, but also some existing trees. I appreciate immediately in front of your

property the tree line is more sparse. But there is a combination of mounding and

proposed planting which will provide quite a significant degree of visual screening as

you can see.

42

265. MRS HALL: It’ll take some time to take effect.

266. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It will. And as I always make clear to people in your

sort of situation we’re not to be taken as saying that you will not see the railway at any

time. But it will provide, we think a–

267. MRS HALL: As I said it’s not the railway which is the issue.

268. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. So that’s the position. Now then moving back to

the construction position, P5412. Of course there’s no doubt that where you are you’ll

be looking – because you’re looking up towards the construction site that is in an

elevated position you’re clearly going to be aware of and see that site, and it’s going to

be there, as your MP said, for a number of years. But what we expect is that the

earthworks will take place relatively early in the construction, and so you will begin to

experience some degree of visual screening from the earthworks.

269. MRS HALL: Will that bund that’s shown there then come across the front of my

property?

270. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s actually not a bund, it’s a material stockpile.

271. MRS HALL: Well, a stockpile.

272. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The location of it, that’s shown – that’s where it’s

proposed to be on our current plan.

273. MRS HALL: Which isn’t in front of the property at all.

274. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No. It’s not intended to be a screening. That is a

stockpile, so it’s intended – it may coincidentally have some screening effect, but it’s

not intended to be screening. We will have – we expect to provide a boundary fence, a

hoarding along the works site. Now clearly, because the land behind is rising that will

only have a limited degree of screening. But it will provide some screening. And as

part of the overall arrangements for seeking to limit the noise and disturbance from a

43

major construction site like this, which was set out in detail in the code of construction

practice, the professed aim and objective through those tried and trusted measures is to

seek to limit the effect as far as we reasonably can. The statutory requirement is to take

best practical means to limit effects. And we’re predicting in your case that the noise

from the construction site will be broadly speaking, at your property, at levels that are

commensurate with your existing noise environment during the day. Which will, I

suspect, largely be set by traffic on the road.

275. MRS HALL: I know you say that but I know what the noise is in my area, and

have done for the last 28 years. I’m pretty sure that it’s going to be different to that.

The swooshing of the 412 is very, very different to construction noise.

276. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Mr Gauke asked about compensation. The project’s

approach is to seek to mitigate the impacts of construction through the operation of the

code of construction practice. As he will know it is – the Government’s position is not

to offer financial compensation for the disturbance which may be experienced during

the construction phase. There are some provisions in the code of construction practice

which provide for sound insulation, and in very exceptional cases for re-housing

temporarily. But the noise levels we’re predicting in this location are very far below

those that we would expect to trigger that. Which hopefully is good news. Because the

closer you get to those triggers the more noisy the environment is going to be. So I

don’t think I can say any more than that at this stage. That would be the approach–

277. CHAIR: How much more traffic outside the home?

278. MR MOULD QC (DfT): How much more traffic?

279. CHAIR: Yeah.

280. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. Let me show you the slide on that. Just put up

P5249. I think the stretch of road we’re dealing with here is D and C. So your property

is just about where the arrow of the D is. And we are predicting that without the

railway construction traffic there will be 5,000 cars and light vehicles going southbound

on that road on a weekday in 2021, and about 6,000 going northbound on that – I’m so

44

sorry, about 4,200 going northbound. About 100 HGVs going northbound, and about

130 HGVs going southbound. Those are the predicted figures based on our assessments

without the railway traffic. The railway traffic adds 257 cars and light vehicles

northbound, daily weekday flows. 460 cars and LGVs southbound daily weekday

flows. 29 HGVs northbound on the same basis, and 32 HGVs southbound. So a

relatively small increase over the then predicted existing flows, both in terms of light

vehicles and in terms of heavy vehicles. And as we explained, detailed arrangements

for traffic management, including if necessary controlling hours of activity, those will

be matters that will be subject of discussion with the Highway Authority through the

traffic management plans, and they will be subject to local community engagement

though the preparation of the environmental management plans which sit beneath them.

281. CHAIR: Can I ask a further question about hoardings? Smart London properties,

people quite often put nice camouflage when they’re doing building work, so it looks

like a house or whatever. And the term ‘hoarding’ can cover a range of things. We’re

talking here several years. Now if you’re in a rural area I don’t think it would matter

too much. But in an area like this which is semi-rural are we talking quite smart things

that blend in with neutral colours that people can – they don’t want it there but – or are

we talking something rather cheap and horrible?

282. MR MOULD QC (DfT): A nasty bit of plywood? We’re talking about the

former rather than the latter. We’re going to – the hoardings will be appropriate to the

area, particularly given that we are talking about features in the local street scene that

are likely to be there for quite a number of years.

283. CHAIR: And would the local planning authority what is put up or do hoardings

come in the plan at all?

284. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The way in which site is hoarded would fall within the

remit of the local environmental plans, I think, and so therefore will be subject to

agreement with local authorities and others. But again the code of construction practice

says – I can’t remember the precise paragraph but the code of construction practice

deals with – foreshadows that contractors will be expected to employ best practice in

terms of features like that.

45

285. CHAIR: This is a very substantial site, and indeed as is the one in Ickenham

where are lot of houses – really the project needs to do what it can do.

286. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Of course.

287. CHAIR: Camouflage as far as possible. Because we’re not talking a short term

use here, we’re talking quite a long number of years.

288. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Particularly so given that we know that whether –

there’s no difference here, under the bill scheme or if ultimately – we don’t think it’s

justified – but if ultimately there were a view that there should be a tunnel we know that

this site is going to be site that is going to be a major construction site.

289. CHAIR: Okay. Ms Hall, anything further you’d like to say?

290. MRS HALL: No. Just to add that we know the construction is going to be the

same, whether it’s going to a tunnel or whether it’s going to be a viaduct. Obviously

the better option visually is going to be the tunnel. The construction’s going to be the

same for us either way, as you can see how close we are to the construction. It’s right,

left and centre out of all of our windows. It will be noisy to us, we’re used to a very

quiet road. And basically I’m in a position where I don’t want to sell but feel that with

this noise I may be forced to.

291. CHAIR: Some of the problem is people get used to noise in their areas, a road or

an airport or something else. We arrive somewhere and they say, ‘Oh, it’s normally

terribly quiet.’ And all we can hear is the motorway going or aircraft going over the

top.

292. MRS HALL: Yes, we have lots of noises but they’re noises that we recognise.

293. CHAIR: Can I ask, just as a further question about construction sites; vehicles

when they reverse, for understandable safety reasons make an awful noise, are we – no?

46

294. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No, that doesn’t happen any more on large construction

sites.

295. CHAIR: It doesn’t. I’m out of date, am I?

296. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Well – no, no, not at all, but I think that – it’s done

through ear pieces.

297. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Miss Hall had a question which I think hasn’t been

answered.

298. MRS HALL: It was just about the beeps that – the normal reversing beeps that

you get on lorries; I believe there is something else that could be used.

299. CHAIR: They’re going to use earpieces. So you won’t have the reversing.

300. MRS HALL: So you don’t hear anything.

301. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Don’t stand behind a lorry if you don’t have an

earpiece.

302. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It may be helpful if I – you asked me about hoardings

and I said I couldn’t remember the paragraph number. Section 5.6 in the Code of

Construction Practice, it has a series of detailed provisions in relation to the standard of

hoardings and one of the things that it makes clear, is that they should be appropriate to

the local situation, and I do want to emphasise, if I may, yet again, people are concerned

that this is a draft document; it’s a draft document that’s only going to go one way, it’s

only going to get better, so this is a minimum standard here.

303. CHAIR: Any final comment to you, Mr Gauke?

304. MR MEARNS: Decorate them with something nice like photographs of the local

MP or something.

305. CHAIR: I don’t think we have a vote on that.

306. MR GAUKE: I think that may have a mixed response. I’m grateful for the

reassurance, first on the balancing pond. I would stress there is already a flood risk that

exists for West Hyde, so if anything, if there is a case that we could say that the flood

47

risk that ultimately is diminished, not increased, then that would certainly be very

welcome. I think your point, Mr Syms, about the fact that this is a compound that is

going to be there for many years, eight and a half years was the period of time that I’m

aware of, there is always the risk of these things expanding. It’s semi-permanent, as far

as local residents are concerned, and therefore, every possible step that can be taken to

ensure that this is in keeping with the natural surroundings would be really essential, I

think, for my constituents living in West Hyde, so I think your question about hoardings

is a very good one and one that I certainly hope to hold HS2 to account on, given the

reassurances that we’ve heard today.

307. CHAIR: And if you don’t want to move, which clearly you don’t because it’s a

family home, then you can’t access the Need to Sell, but if a year after the operation of

the railway, I think it’s true that you can actually serve a notice if it does affect you, and

get some compensation if you can prove that.

308. MRS HALL: Just a year after it’s been up and running? Which is how many

years?

309. MR MEARNS: It’s up to that though. I mean, during the process of the

construction, if you really find it too much, that Need to Sell scheme could kick in, and

you have to make an application.

310. MRS HALL: I understand the Need to Sell scheme, it’s just that the upheaval of

having to have people trawling all the way through the property all the time to see if

you can sell and you’re not going to get the full value for it, it’s something that I don’t

want to have go to, but may have to.

311. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: You can ask the promoters now if they’d accept that

it is a property in a location where they would not be asked to try to sell for three

months. It seems to me if you take the evidence we heard from James Gibbs, the estate

agent, if you’re that close to the work, he wouldn’t even put you on his books. I hope

that some way, if Miss Hall and Gary Davidson choose to apply for the Need to Sell,

that it would be accepted that they are one of those rare properties where showing

actually trying to sell for three months is not required.

312. MR MOULD QC (DfT): On the evidence that you’ve heard today, I can say that

48

there is compelling force in that view, but as you know, that judgment is one for an

independent panel, but I think I can certainly go that far.

313. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Speak to them directly; if you take the evidence

given earlier on by Mr James Gibbs, who is still here, if you find the transcript, add that

to any application you make, I think an independent panel is unlikely to reject it.

314. MR GAUKE: I should also make the point that their property is the closest to the

rail track. There are also other properties in West Hyde that are very close to the

compound and maybe facing similar issues in terms of – I think the issue is

predominantly one of construction, or the impact of construction and that issue applies

to a number of the 60 or so properties in West Hyde.

315. CHAIR: When we did the visit, we met a farmer who lost some land to the M25

who was about to lose some land to HS2, so clearly, it’s a very busy area. Okay, thank

you very much for appearing today. We now move on to Sally Cakebread.

Sally Cakebread

316. CHAIR: Okay, we’ve got you up where you are. The house and some land

around?

317. MS CAKEBREAD: Sorry?

318. CHAIR: Up on the screen, that’s where you are – in front of you.

319. MS CAKEBREAD: Sorry, I didn’t read the map – the map’s quite far away.

Yes, a 45 acre farm in Denham, alongside the River Colne. So I’d like to go to my

slides. Okay, that’s a closer up map. So that shows the boundary of our land, which

includes the river bed of the River Colne and it’s a farm growing maize, 26 acres of

maize. It’s been in my family a long time, not quite as long as the last petitioners, but

nearly. Next slide?

320. So, I just want to talk today as briefly as I can, just a bit of background, some

information about the historical significance of Savay Farm. It’s Grade I listing, the

worshiping circle, the Mosley family’s residence at Savay Farm, briefly, followed by

how HS2 would affect my family. My experience of contact with HS2, then mitigation

49

and lastly the Colne Valley tunnel which I feel would be the best option. Next slide

please?

321. So, I’d like you to have a look at those photographs, photographs of the house,

photographs of old maps, just so you can get a feel of what the house looks like.

322. Next couple of slides, photographs of the house as well. Okay, that’s the River

Colne, on our property. Next slide? That’s Tudor brickwork on our house. Next slide.

That’s the view of a Grade II bridge which is on our property. Next slide. That’s the

view over the field by our house, facing towards the direction where the viaduct would

cross, where that pylon is. Next slide please? That’s the beautiful River Colne in the

autumn. Next slide please.

323. So, in April, a young army officer was help take a court marshal at Wellington

Barracks. While he was waiting, he picked up a copy of Country Life and he fell in

love with the house on the first page, which was Savay Farm. That was my late father,

Frank Cakebread. That thus began our family’s love affair with Savay Farm. He only

saw three rooms because it has been requisitioned in the war. Churchill was a regular

visitor, but nonetheless, he went ahead and bought the house, aged 26, and the farm

which was 122 acres. Next slide please.

324. That’s my father. Next slide please. That’s the house probably in 1930s. Next

slide please. So I’ve lived at Savay Farm all my life. I live there with my family,

including my mother who’s lived there since the late 50s. The farm’s now 45 acres and

is along the west bank of the River Colne. The proposed Colne Valley viaduct is less

than 250 metres from our farm. HS2 has measured it from our house, which is about

300 metres. If you could show the slide – there was a map which I wanted to show,

which shows the position. I don’t know what’s happened to that. I’ve got a hard copy

if you want.

325. MR MEARNS: It’s 535?

326. MS CAKEBREAD: Here it is; it’s this map. It shows the position of our farm

there. The Chiltern Line from Marylebone to Birmingham is situated 500 metres south

of our house. When this railway line was put in in the early 20th century, there was a

huge uproar in Denham. To be doubly hit by two rail lines, ironically going to and

50

from the same place, would be hugely damaging to our property. Next slide please.

327. So, briefly, Savay Farm consists of 12 dwellings; four Grade I listed, five Grade II

listed, including five houses and the 16th century barns. Grade II listed gate cottage, a

Grade II listed ancient bridge over the River Colne, plus two farm cottages. It’s very

rare to find a farm which such an array of listed buildings within the M25. Next slide

please.

328. Okay, before I go onto this, just a bit more about the background. Savay Farm is

the result of two lifetimes of work. My great-grandfather, George Henry Cakebread,

who started a builders’ merchants business, Cakebreads. He was a self made man from

Hackney. Also, my father who was able to buy Savay Farm as a result of his work and

my father devoted his life to maintaining and running Savay Farm. Any my life is now

devoted to preserving Savay Farm for future generations. It’s stood on the spot for 850

years and I hope it will be standing there in another 850 years.

329. Mr Mould said yesterday that the setting of Savay Farm had changed and said it

was not an unbroken rural idyll. I would contest this. All my life, so nearly half a

century, Savay Farm has been a rural idyll. My father sold land which became Savay

Lake. He had losses from pig farming which forced the sale. As a result, we live

beside one of the top three fishing lakes in England. The sun rising in the east over the

lakes every morning, is a sight to behold, and if the gravel hadn’t been dug, we

wouldn’t have that sight. The birds that live on the lake are incredible, herons,

kingfishers, egrets, grebes, rare birds. After the gravel was dug, we were left with the

lake, with fishermen enjoying their peaceful hobby.

330. I’ve travelled a lot, India, Australia, special places around the world but every

time I come back to Savay Farm, I can’t think that anywhere is more beautiful. So, in

relation to this rural idyll, that Mr Mould contests, I would like to ask Mr Mould a very

quick question. Have you been to Savay Farm?

331. MR MOULD QC (DfT): There’s no need to have an argument about this.

332. MS CAKEBREAD: Well, there you go. Seeing is believing. The Select

Committee very kindly came and visited Savay Farm and you’re very welcome to come

again, and I promise you refreshments next time. At least tea and coffee, and a glass of

51

Pimm’s if you’re lucky.

333. Land evolves over time, so you can’t really expect it to be the same now as it was

in mediaeval times when it was about over 300 acres. So, over the years, it has grown

slightly smaller but I believe that the setting hasn’t been altered, and in fact, the lake has

enhanced it.

334. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If it helps to move things on, we in no way, seek to

challenge that the property fully merits its listing as a Grade I Listed Building.

335. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. So, possible mitigation; as page 2 of the guide to

petitioners, I wish to argue for changes to the route that are within, what could be

described as the broad alignment of the route and I want to try and demonstrate why the

current proposed route would have a direct and special effect on Savay Farm, its

occupants and its place as one of the nation’s heritage assets. Next slide please.

336. So, I won’t go through all of this but just to say that Grade I is a rare listing, it

means that it can be considered internationally important. It’s alongside a lot of other

great houses in the country and I would ask the Select Committee, would you feel

comfortable to put a massive concrete and steel viaduct within 300 metres of, say,

Hever Castle, Dover Castle, Highclere Castle, Castle Howard? Savay Farm’s

acknowledged as one of the oldest manor houses in the country an exception example

of mediaeval architecture. It was built around 1130 to 1150, so it’s 850 years old.

English Heritage has told me that 12th century manor houses within the M25 are

exceptionally rare. Next slide please.

337. That’s a picture of some beans in one of the bedrooms, the mural room. Next

slide please. That’s an old map showing Denham, and the old wood land, and the

Manor of Denham Derdant, which is Savay Farm now. Next slide please.

338. Old map of the farm from the 17th century. Next slide please. Okay, just a bit

more about the history. King Henry VIII used Savay Farm as a hunting lodge. He used

to hunt on Hog Land, which is the land towards Harefield. There was an infamous

murder in our house in 1512. There’s a beam – I don’t know if I put a slide in of it, it’s

on the next slide – which was carbon dated to before Christ, a tree from before Christ.

So, as you can see, it’s got a fascinating history, therefore, I believe it needs preserving

52

for future generations.

339. This means that its appearance from all angles should be preserved, crucially its

unique setting.

340. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I’m just going to interrupt your flow. Westminster

Abbey claims they’ve got the oldest door in the country, which is about 1,000 years old.

If you every get your door dated and it’s older, just go and tell the Dean of

Westminster.

341. MS CAKEBREAD: Oh, it’s not the door, it’s a beam.

342. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: The beam – below it, it’s a door. Which is a certain

age.

343. MS CAKEBREAD: And our front door is ancient. Okay, so please feel free to

ask questions. View from the house would be destroyed to the north were a train line to

be put there. Views of the house from across the lake would vanish. Our quiet

enjoyment of our home would be severely compromised. I believe the house would

probably be almost uninhabitable just from the sheer noise of it. Next slide please.

344. The house has been described as probably the oldest still inhabited in this

country. Obviously, I know probably other houses have been described like this, but

it’s also a fine specimen of mediaeval timber framed house. Next slide please.

345. Now I won’t do too much more about the history, because you’re probably

getting terribly bored.

346. CHAIR: It’s not boring; we’re more kind of focused on solutions than on the

history. Normally, this would be the sort of thing I watch TV programmes on the

Discovery Channel.

347. MS CAKEBREAD: There is an extra dimension to the interest of the house,

making it exceptionally interesting. The fact that Sir Oswald Mosley lived at Savay

Farm in the 1930s. Obviously, you probably don’t agree with his politics; he lived in

Worthing as well. Is that where you’re from?

348. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: He changed his politics. As did Sir Winston

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Churchill.

349. MS CAKEBREAD: But the context that the Mosley family lived; in fact Cynthia

Curzon, or Cynthia Mosley, she bought the farm. Okay, so I’ve been in touch with

English Heritage, I’ve been in touch with them over several years. I’ve been in touch

with their chairman, he’s now left, probably he was not very suitable, cut out for that

job, but I’ve heard from Richard Peats, the inspector of historic buildings and areas and

he has said that in the view of English Heritage, Savay Farm is a very high significance

as a fine, well preserved example of a 14th century manor house. It’s actually older than

that, but that’s the additions. Domestic buildings of the 14th century are very rare and to

find one this complete is exceptional. Then he goes on to say that the Mosley link is

very important. And English Heritage’s advice to Government is that HS2 would do

great harm to the significance of this building. Next slide please.

350. So, one of our greatest worries is noise. Obviously the visual impact of having a

proposed viaduct, but also noise. Limited measures to soundproof the house are likely

to be possible, according to English Heritage. For instance, it would be possible to fit

secondary glazing. We already have secondary glazing, and it really doesn’t make

much difference. It’s unlikely that English Heritage would consider more dramatic

sound attenuation measures. So there’s very few measures that could be suitable for a

Grade I listed house. They do say that they don’t think that HS2 would be likely to

threaten the structural integrity of the building. I do have concerns about vibrations and

the fact that the walls are one brick thick and that it’s lead light windows, so I’m

worried about that. Next slide please.

351. So, there is a worshiping circle beneath the soil at Savay Farm. Ancient sarsen

stone. The stones are from the same quarry as Stonehenge. So Stonehenge is getting a

road tunnel, I believe, and therefore I think that if HS2 were to be built, the Colne

Valley should get a tunnel too. Next slide please.

352. That’s the information from Knight Frank estate agents about the stone circle.

Next slide please. Have you got any questions?

353. CHAIR: No, all very clear.

354. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. I’ve been told not to do too much information about

54

the Mosleys.

355. CHAIR: We can read it all anyway. We have a copy of the slides and of course,

we went in your home when we visited.

356. MR MEARNS: We all have copies of all of your slides.

357. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. Good. So just the point I would like to make is that

Cynthia Mosley was buried on the farm. At the spot where she was buried is a copse,

very beautiful babble of the Colne, where she liked to go and see the bluebells and sit

quietly. The proposed viaduct runs within 250 metres of this ancient wood.

358. Also, there is a graveyard alongside Moorfield Road; not many people know

about this, it’s from mediaeval times, and it’s at the very spot where the proposed

viaduct would cross. I have told HS2 about this burial ground. And that’s the next

slide please. That’s a bit more about the tomb that was designed by Lutyens, but I

won’t go into all that. Next slide please.

359. That’s about the graveyard on Moorfield Road, so it’s the land between

Greenbridge and where the proposed viaduct crosses Moorfield Road. Next slide

please. So, we’ve got a history of farming at Savay Farm, starting with cows, pigs,

moving onto chickens, so we, like all farmers we seek to diversify. At present we grow

maize for cattle fodder on about 26 acres in fact, and we also take hay.

360. In the future, I would expect leisure potential to be an important opportunity for

diversification. The house could be used as a guest house or small hotel. Lodges could

be built on the land, for example; there could be glamping, camping, all sorts of things.

We own the fishing rights along the River Colne, and there is potential for leisure

facilities, fishing, boating, flying, bird watching; these would all be lost in perpetuity

from our estate should the viaduct be built and we haven’t been offered any

compensation for loss of leisure facilities. Should the HS2 Colne Valley viaduct be

built, this would constitute loss of our livelihood, potentially. Next slide please.

361. So, Savay Farm may well be a tourist attraction in the future, although the house

isn’t open to the public, we do show people round sometimes, especially school

children. It’s a house with such history and interest that it easily could be open to the

55

public with an exhibition of say, the Mosleys.

362. So my question is: why should this treasure of our heritage, which has stood on

the same spot for 850 years, why should all this be thwarted by putting a concrete

viaduct 250 yards from it? Americans think it’s madness and I would agree. My auntie

in New Mexico has commented that it’s a vile project, ruining the country side, costing

far too much money for very little return on the investment. I don’t see why any tourist

would be interested in seeing an architect designed viaduct. They’ve probably got

bigger and better ones in their own countries, say they’re from France or China, or any

other country, but what is interesting for tourists in England, is to see fine old buildings

and castles. Next slide please.

363. I won’t go into this, but I was looking for other examples of Grade I listed

buildings affected by HS2. I’m sure you know better than me what is happening with

Hartwell House; I am not totally sure what the situation is there, but my question is what

sort of mitigation is being offered to other Grade I properties along the route? Next

slide please.

364. Impact on our lives: so we live within 500 metres of the Chiltern Line Railway

between Marylebone and Birmingham. There was a huge outcry about the building of

that line, so for us to be positioned between two lines and being a sacrificial lamb twice

in a century is unlucky to say the least. We would not be able to use the HS2 line; we

would have to use the Chiltern Line. Next slide.

365. Working from home: the next slide please. I work from home, I’m at home a lot

of the time, and I do a lot of close work with figures, need a lot of peace in order to

concentrate. Within the last couple of months I’ve had to complain about loud noise

from the recycling plant on Harbour Road, which is over a kilometre away, so four

times further than the proposed viaduct. The noise gave me a terrible headache and that

was from four times the difference, so what would the noise of a viaduct within 250

yards of our house, what would that do? Next slide please.

366. The working hours: HS2 said the viaduct would take four years to construct:

working hours are 08.00 to 6.00 weekdays and 08.00 to 1.00 Saturdays. This would be

devastating on us, because we’re at home most of the time; our lives would be

intolerable due to the construction noise. Having lived in such a peaceful place for so

56

long, it would be impossible to adjust. Next slide please.

367. I’m a very keen tennis player; the tennis court is at the back of the house near

towards where the proposed viaduct would be. The noise would ruin my enjoyment; I

play an awful lot of tennis, several times a week, so do my family, they come over and

play. Okay, next slide is a short film of our current view and the noise, if you could

play that please?

368. CHAIR: Does it work on the system? We don’t have it. You can always supply

it later and the HS2 can send it to us and we’ll have a look when we’re back in our

offices.

369. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay, it’s quite short; it’s just a clip of what the noise level

is at the moment. The noise we have at the moment is bird noise mainly, obviously we

can hear the trains from the Chiltern Line, but they’re not intrusive. We have a lot of

noise from the birds over Savay Lake.

370. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If I am allowed to give you some help?

371. MS CAKEBREAD: Yes.

372. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I think you need to move past a number of your

pages…

373. MS CAKEBREAD: They’ve been done before?

374. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: So we can get to the points which we can consider.

375. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay.

376. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: At the moment you’re giving us a very interesting

time, but I do think you ought to look to see the things that you would actually ask the

Committee to perhaps consider doing. The essential point I think is the additional

justification for considering a tunnel.

377. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay.

378. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I’m not sure whether this is an area where the

tunnel – at some stage Mr Mould might tell us were there to be a tunnel, which is the bit

57

that would still be in the open air?

379. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The tunnel here would be genuinely underground. I’ll

just check whether we would – no, it would be, because this would be, sorry. If there

were a tunnel any of the tunnels that have been proposed here would mean that the noise

and visual impact on this property would be overcome.

380. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Would go away. I think you ought to stick to

anything that adds directly to our considerations please. So we’ll take for granted the

contact and non-contact with HS2; that’s the past, we’re looking forward, so if you turn

pages together?

381. MS CAKEBREAD: So obviously I’ve lived in the area all my life, and I know

the Colne Valley very well, and I’ve walked it with numerous dogs, so dog walking

would be an activity that would be…

382. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We’ve got…

383. MS CAKEBREAD: Have you got that?

384. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We’ve got those, and we accept that the mitigation

is not much or can’t be much if it’s on the viaduct. If you stop at 52 for a moment let

us… This is your direct request, which I think would be a useful thing for you to give to

us.

385. MS CAKEBREAD: Yes. Okay. Just one other point I would like to make is

that HS2 has trespassed on my property; I am not going to make a big deal of it, it was

several years ago, when I asked them to leave they did leave, I just wanted to make that

clear, because they have denied it. Also the point that I was told on the phone by an

HS2 employee that our house wasn’t worth putting on your list when you came to visit

the Colne Valley, which I think is unbelievable really, given that we live on a farm and

it’s majorly impacted by the proposed viaduct. I thank you very much for visiting.

386. CHAIR: The visits are generally done with some input from HS2, but mainly

input from Local Members of Parliament who have suggested where we need to look, so

we do get around.

58

387. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. With regards to mitigation: obviously the sound

proofing is not possible.

388. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Please accept that we understand those points.

389. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. Trees are not possible. To finish off: I would like to

just make one other point about my health has suffered over the last five years. I have

had heart palpitations caused by stress, and I have severe headaches caused by stress.

As per the guide for petitioners’ rights of parties, I respectfully request that the Select

Committee consider making an amendment to the HS2 Bill by putting a tunnel under the

Colne Valley rather than a viaduct over it. I request this on the grounds that the current

proposed route would have a direct and special effect on Savay Farm, its occupants, and

its place as one of the nation’s heritage assets. Thank you for your time and have you

got any questions?

390. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: No.

391. CHAIR: We hear from the promoters.

392. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Mr Mould, what do you know about Sir Oswald

Mosley?

393. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I’m not sure I can do very much about Sir Oswald

Mosley, but what I can tell you is, in a nutshell, we acknowledge and have

acknowledged in the Environmental Statement, that this property,. a property of

acknowledged historic value at the highest level in the national register, albeit that it is

reported as having had its historic landscape context to the east affected by the removal

of gravel and the formation of the lakes. Nevertheless the scheme, that is to say the

construction of the viaduct, the presence of the viaduct, and the operation of trains along

it, we acknowledge in the Environmental Statement will detract from its setting, and will

have a major adverse effect on its significance as a historic asset. So that point is

effectively common ground between ourselves and the petitioner.

394. We also have acknowledged that there will be a moderate adverse effect on the

living conditions of the occupiers of this property as a result of operational noise from

the railway, and I can just show you P5362, which in the usual way illustrates that on

59

the contour map. The petitioner’s property is shaded brown denoting a moderate

adverse impact; that arises, as you see from P5364, principally from the increase in

noise levels from the existing as a result of the operation of the railway tracks, an

increase of 6dB during the day and 5dB at night. If you want to remind yourself, as I’m

sure you don’t need to, but if you want to remind yourself of the position as regards

setting, you can probably get that from P5241, which is the familiar computer-generated

image.

395. The Savay Farm is being pointed out now, the point that is made in the

Environmental Statement is that although the area to the east obviously has changed, the

setting there has changed as a result of extraction and the lakes, the public views are

largely to be obtained from the west, and obviously the backdrop to the setting of the

property will be changed considerably by the presence of the viaduct in future years.

The same goes, of course, for the effects on the occupiers of the property as well.

396. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: P5360 for a moment?

397. MS CAKEBREAD: Can I make one point?

398. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Yes?

399. MS CAKEBREAD: HS2 hasn’t been on our property to measure the current

noise, so I don’t know how they arrive at the figures. They haven’t actually been on our

land, so they don’t know what the noise is on our land.

400. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: They haven’t actually been on your land again?

401. MS CAKEBREAD: Unless they took a sneak reading…

402. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: There is an established way of doing these things,

unless you have a reason to challenge what the baseline is let’s accept the calculations

are likely to be about right. The reason I was asking to have this put up is that Members

of the Committee can actually see there is no way of mitigating the view of the viaduct.

It’s a point that has been made, which we accept; everyone accepts.

403. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I also accept that there is unlikely to be anything

further that can be done, given the sensitivity of this building, to mitigate the noise

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effects. So this is a petitioner and a property, which, for the reasons I’ve given, weighs

clearly in favour of a tunnel as opposed to putting the railway on a viaduct, but there are

other factors, as you know, we think that weigh in the balance against that and are

judgement, as we have explained to you, is that that balance ultimately weighs in favour

of the Bill scheme. Unless I can show any more to you about it that’s the matter for

your judgement when you’ve heard all the evidence from others on this area.

404. MS CAKEBREAD: I would just like to say that the promoter has said in their

response to me, ‘The promoter has sought to avoid direct impact on all heritage assets.’

What went wrong? This is so untrue, we are the only Grade I listed manor house with

masses of listed buildings and a worshipping circle in the Colne Valley, in the whole

Colne Valley. What went wrong with your planning?

405. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Can I just explain what we mean by that, because it

may be there is a misunderstanding: when we say ‘avoid direct impacts’ we mean avoid

actually demolishing or physically damaging. Here the issue is the effect of the railway

on the setting of the listed building, which is conventionally described by those who

work in this field as being an indirect effect. I am not suggesting for a minute that one

should seek to diminish that effect; I have just made clear, I accept, that if it were only a

case of choosing between the impact on this building and avoiding it then the answer is

clear, but there are other factors to weigh in the balance.

406. CHAIR: I understand on Crossrail it was demolishing an ancient barn that they

decided it had to be taken down and rebuilt somewhere else, so if it were directly going

over your property…

407. MS CAKEBREAD: We are grateful that our property is not being demolished.

408. CHAIR: Yes, well, we would then be considering whether it needed to be taken

brick-by-brick somewhere else, so that would be issue we would then consider.

409. MS CAKEBREAD: Yes. I’ve heard that’s happened in Germany, yes. I still

think that it’s the behaviour of philistines to put a viaduct within 250 yards of an ancient

site, an ancient Grade I listed house, and I would like to reiterate my request that a

tunnel be put in under the Colne Valley. There is not just our house; it is the whole

Colne Valley, which I have talked about in my petition – I won’t go into obviously – but

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it is a number of factors HOAC, the water-ski club, Savay Farm, Savay Lake, which we

are coming to later. Given all those incredibly valuable assets they need preserving, and

I request that a tunnel be put in.

410. CHAIR: Okay, thank you very much for your contribution.

411. MS CAKEBREAD: Thank you very much for your time. Sorry I was nervous,

but I did feel a bit ill.

412. CHAIR: I know it can be a bit daunting. It was very nice to visit your home.

413. MS CAKEBREAD: You are welcome.

Diane Blackwell

414. CHAIR: We now have Diane Blackwell. We have looked at the information.

Good afternoon. I see you have been waiting patiently for your…

415. MRS BLACKWELL: I have indeed.

416. CHAIR: Were you in the group that met us when we arrived?

417. MRS BLACKWELL: I was; I was. I’m sorry, I’m fiddling around here trying to

make sure I’m organised, so I can go as quickly as possible. My story is short you’ll be

pleased to hear. I’m a neighbour of Sally’s; I live on the farm as well. My story is quite

different; I moved to Savay Farm eight and a half years ago when I took early retirement

due to ill health. You are going to have to bear with me. Can I have my second slide

please? No? You don’t have the slides? You said that you had them. It’s a brochure.

418. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I’m sorry, we don’t have any electronic documents for

this petitioner; I don’t know why that is.

419. MRS BLACKWELL: I sent an email saying ‘rouse’.

420. MR BANKES: I asked yesterday evening if we had anything and I was told not.

421. MRS BLACKWELL: Okay. Right, I shall do my best without.

422. CHAIR: You can either carry on, or we can take another petitioner and they have

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a look and see if they can find the slides?

423. MRS BLACKWELL: I’m here; it’s unfortunate, but these things happen, don’t

they?

424. CHAIR: We have actually seen quite a lot of slides there and we visited there, so

we do know what you are talking about.

425. MRS BLACKWELL: It wasn’t quite the same; I’m not showing the same slides

again, I wouldn’t do that to you.

426. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I would be very happy to have hard copies photocopied

provided…

427. MRS BLACKWELL: I had some very simple maps that illustrated why we

moved to Savay Farm, and my petition is mainly to do with pollution.

428. CHAIR: Let’s adjourn for five minutes and have a chat and see where we go

from here, I don’t want to put you in an unfair position.

429. MR PARTRIDGE: I put up some slides yesterday describing…

430. CHAIR: Some of them could be used?

431. MR PARTRIDGE: I think so. I didn’t include Diane’s house. There is a general

shot of the barns.

432. MRS BLACKWELL: Sally has talked about my house and I love my house, but

I am trying to put across that I live in this area; this is the environment and effect that

the environment has.

433. CHAIR: Okay. I am going to adjourn for five minutes and we can sort this out.

Order, order.

Sitting Suspended

On resuming—

434. CHAIR: Order, order. After that brief break to try and get things together, Mr

Mould, would you just like to start off with a few maps of the area to give a brief

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explanation before I go to the petitioner?

435. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If we can first put up P5233 please? I’ll start with one

specific, and then we’ll move out to set it in context.

436. CHAIR: Are you searching for it?

437. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Okay. We’ll use the cursor, so on this map Miss

Blackwell’s property is, as she’s told you, neighbouring onto Savay Farm and it’s below

this box here, which I’ve got the cursor on. One of her concerns is the presence of

satellite works compounds on either side of Moorhall Lane, and I’m pointing out those

two compounds to you now.

438. CHAIR: Is it Moorfield Road?

439. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It becomes Moorhall Lane as it…

440. MRS BLACKWELL: Moorhall Road.

441. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Moorhall Road as it goes north eastwards. Another of

her concerns we can get from – so that’s the first point of context. If we then turn on to

– sorry…

442. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: P5382.

443. MR MOULD QC (DfT): 5382.

444. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: That gives us the Moorfield / Moorhall Road you

were talking about just now.

445. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. Yes, we can see the petitioner’s property and then

Moorhall Road, and although they’re shown with the grey notation, I’m now pointing

you to the satellite compound on the northwest side of Moorhall Road, and the eastern

compound is just below it a bit further towards the road itself just here.

446. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If we then go to 5257 please. The petitioner’s

property is just at this point here; that’s broadly speaking the petitioner’s property, and

she travels to Harefield Hospital, which is here, and she makes the journey by

travelling--she’ll tell me if I’ve got this right – up Moorfields Road, Moorhall Road, and

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she turns left onto what is marked as Church Hill, but I think is known locally as

Harville Road as well, and she turns left along that route and that takes her up to

Harefield Hospital as the cursor shows there. Does that give you enough?

447. CHAIR: Alright, would you like to continue now?

448. MRS BLACKWELL: I’m sorry, this might be a little disjointed, but anyway, as

I was saying, if I could go back to the brochure, I’m just showing you this to explain my

condition. I go to the Adapt Project in Birmingham, because I suffer with an inherited

condition called Alpha 1-antitrypsin deficiency, which results in you having COPD,

which I’m sure you all know. I go to the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham, so

strangely enough I’m very familiar with the train journey.

449. The next map I was going to show was the surroundings I live in to show you

why we moved to Savay Farm; why we thought we had cracked it, we were so clever,

because it just offered everything for us for our retirement, for our health, and my

husband’s work. The map shows how I get to Harefield Hospital, how I pick up my

prescriptions, which I need to self-medicate, so I must keep them. Sorry, slow down.

So I have to go to Northwood, so I tend to use Harville Road; it’s down the road, it’s

very convenient.

450. The last part is an important part of my rehabilitation, keeping so healthy and

well, is exercise. Now I cannot go to a gym, but I can still walk. I can walk down the

Colne Valley; I can walk to the Visitor’s Centre with my dog, very slowly. I can sit on

benches, I can take my time; it’s protected, it’s flat, it’s perfect. It so far has kept me

very well, so I am very healthy.

451. The next part was a Google Earth map, which showed you the area in which I

live in, not just the farm, but it showed you the proximity of Moorfield Road, and I’m

about 330 metres from Moorfield Road, and the promoters have told me – thank you

very much for your response – that there will only be 24 lorries along this road. That is

not many; 20% more than we have now? It is not many, but they are all emitting diesel

and this is my worry. Further on, these lorries are visiting the satellite compounds, and

when they come to build the viaduct across the lakes, they will need cement mix, and

apparently there is going to be cement mix the other side of Savay Lake, behind the

compounds there. We have dust; we have diesel. These are not ideal for me, not for

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anybody, but especially for people like me.

452. We also have further away, which seems a long way away, Harville Road, we

have the new electrical feeder station, which is being built: again, more lorries, more

dust. I cannot be helped; I am very pleased, and the promoters have told me how they

can control the dust and all the other things, but I cannot believe that – inevitably there

will be more pollution, there will be more diesel and we know that pollution travels.

Wind blows pollution; it does affect a bitter area than you think. We also have a

beautiful lake 850 metres from where I live. I can hear on a windy day the children and

the garden is fabulous.

453. Pollution will be blown across when they’re digging or piling, or whatever

they’re doing, building, constructing. Along Harville Road, Nick Herd, in his response

to the Environmental Statement, reckoned there would be something like 3,200 lorry

movements; each one of these is belching out diesel. I cannot help feeling that we will

get some of this, because one end of Harville Road, which seems a long way away, it

actually isn’t, is really densely polluted and it is going to suffer terribly from the lorries

coming off the A40.

454. This whole area – if you saw it on the map you would see the spokes of a wheel

– I feel that Savay Farm will be living in a construction site. I would be walking and

living, I don’t go to work; this is where I live my life. I don’t leave the area a lot; this is

where I live, not just my beautiful house. Recently a man called Dominic Grieve – can I

have the picture, the cutting from the newspaper if you’ve managed to do that? Yes.

He’s written several articles on diesel in the Sunday Times, the effects it has and how

deadly it is. Sorry, thanks every so much.

455. If I can read you: ‘Scientists are to warn the Government that air pollution, most

of it from dirty diesel, road traffic, may be to blame for up to 60,000 early deaths a

year.’ Alright? So this is frightening; this wonderful fuel that we’re buying, this cheap

and green and all the rest of it: isn’t. He’s written other articles on petrol and how the

diesel…

456. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: That’s enough on that I think please.

457. MRS BLACKWELL: But that is an important point that I’m trying to make; the

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people in Denham, elderly people, a lot of elderly people that live in Denham. We have

the other side of…

458. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I think if you’ll forgive me saying so…

459. MRS BLACKWELL: You’ll believe me?

460. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Well, you don’t need to say more for us to learn

more.

461. MRS BLACKWELL: Okay, right. As I said, this toxic gas, this NO2, is deadly

to me. I am already ill with COPD, but it can cause it, and Simon Birkett, the man from

Clean Air, is calling for a ban on it. So when I read these articles, yes, I am very

concerned that I will be living surrounded by it.

462. Thank you very much, as I said to the promoters for their response, but their last

paragraph: ‘At the location of the petitioner’s property,’ as I said, I don’t just live in my

property, ‘It is unlikely that there will be significant effect on the air quality from

construction dust or vehicle emissions.’ It’s unlikely not significant, platitudes that

don’t reassure me or make me less fearful of what is coming ahead of us, for – what

were we told – three and a half years. I hope that the air quality will be tested and

monitored continually, because the air quality for lots of people is not the same as I

need, or an asthmatic, or an elderly person, or someone with cardiac problems. I am

hoping that they will test it regularly.

463. MR MEARNS: Could I ask you, Mrs Blackwell, are you aware of any baseline

testing, which has been done in the area that you live recently, because I am very aware

that where you live isn’t too far away, for instance, from the M25?

464. MRS BLACKWELL: No, you are right. When we looked into moving there,

I’m not an expert, I’m only an expert on my lungs, but we were told that this area was

considerably better than the area we last lived in, and we do not have…

465. CHAIR: Where did you last live?

466. MRS BLACKWELL: I last lived on a corner in Northwood, coach traffic,

vehicles, we couldn’t open our windows. It was only a small road, but it’s busy. This

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has no through traffic as such; this was better for me totally. Sorry, so I think the last

picture I have, which I can’t show you, was where I walk, because I wanted to leave this

with you to show you how beautiful it is and how healing mentally and physically to

walk down the canal, past the HOAC and these beautiful places. I want to ask you to

bury the train, and not me.

467. CHAIR: Okay, thank you. Mr Mould?

468. MR BELLINGHAM: How many years of construction traffic are we talking

about, just to get this into context. I’m sorry I missed the first part of your presentation.

469. MR MOULD QC (DfT): On Moorfield Road we are talking about, as the

petitioner said, we are predicting 21 lorries each way on a daily week day and those

construction sites are going to operate for – just bear with me – for three years I think.

470. MR BELLINGHAM: It’s three years is it?

471. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Four years.

472. MR BELLINGHAM: Just again to recap, after that it returns to the status quo

basically?

473. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s right, yes.

474. MRS BLACKWELL: The satellite compounds would disappear?

475. MR BELLINGHAM: Yes.

476. MRS BLACKWELL: No more lorries?

477. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The concrete will not be mixed at those satellite

compounds; it’s going to be batched up at the main compound of West Hyde, which the

Committee has been looking at in some detail over the last few weeks.

478. MRS BLACKWELL: I’m so sorry; I was told that they would need to mix

cement to stick the blocks together, I had no idea.

479. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I can only tell the Committee what I have been

instructed.

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480. MR MEARNS: You have done a good job of cheering up previous petitioners.

481. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I am delighted to hear that, and brought on to site by

mixer lorries, that is to say ready mixed. We have carried out an air quality assessment,

and our assessment is not predicting any significant deterioration in air quality in the

locality of Moorfields Road and Moorhall Road. The main construction traffic through

this area is to the east, as I think the Committee will be hearing next week, on roads

coming off the M40 and —

482. CHAIR: So presumably where you have a constructions site that is dealing with

tunnelling and everything you need something making concrete and then you would use

that for other parts of the railway, as a centre to try and avoid lorry movements for

bringing in stuff.

483. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s the idea, yes. Certainly to try and limit the

propensity for dusty activities to main sites.

484. CHAIR: Okay. What about air quality then, does the local authority test for that,

or do HS2 test for that?

485. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The baseline is that air quality is monitored by local

authorities these days under their legal obligations; that’s been the basis upon which

we’ve made an assessment in the Environmental Statement. As I say, we’re not

predicting any significant deterioration in air quality on Moorfields Road or Moorhall

Road as a result of the lorry movements I’ve mentioned to you. Perhaps that sounds

surprising given the numbers, but under the Code of Construction Practice there is a

monitoring requirement, impact of construction compounds, which is set out in the draft

document, and that will be part of the obligations placed upon the nominated undertaker.

486. MR MEARNS: Any sites locally where there has been testing for particular

measures, for instance on air pollution from traffic, that would be reported to the local

Director of Public Health and that would be public available?

487. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, yes. Yes, exactly.

488. CHAIR: So it may be that air quality doesn’t change very much?

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489. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It’s not predicted to in the locations that the petitioner

has referred to; that is to say, in the area immediately to the west of her property,

Moorfields Road, Moorhall Road, and the footpaths thereabouts.

490. MRS BLACKWELL: So it’s not going to change considerably or significantly,

but what I was trying to explain to elderly people, people with asthma, it is significant.

491. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Well, the word used in the Environmental Statement is

‘negligible’ i.e. nothing noticeable at all.

492. MRS BLACKWELL: Nothing noticeable, but I will notice it, trust me.

493. CHAIR: Okay, right. Any final comments? I’m sorry that we couldn’t give you

the slides.

494. MRS BLACKWELL: These things happen.

495. CHAIR: You can always send in the picture you wanted us to see to the clerk

and make sure we have seen it.

496. MRS BLACKWELL: Okay. Yes, okay, I will do. Thank you very much

indeed.

497. CHAIR: Thank you very much Mrs Blackwell.

Thomas Bankes

498. CHAIR: Hello, thank you for waiting patiently.

499. MR BANKES: I am the sole owner of Savay Lake; it is a 90 acre site, and I run

it as a freshwater fishery and wildlife reserve.

500. CHAIR: We met you when we visited?

501. MR BANKES: We certainly did, on the bridge.

502. CHAIR: We had a chat, yes, yes.

503. MR BANKES: Absolutely. The key to its natural value it has an excellent

location within the Colne Valley, the Grand Union on one side, with the Colne the other,

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it makes it like a moat; it is surrounded by water. I refer to my ownership as ‘we’ that is

myself and the lake, plus the many other individuals that have a part in the site over the

years, and there’s a fair few years, it is 60 years. I would like to also mention at this

point that right up until this point there’s never been a planning application, there’s no

ill thought out architecture, there’s no heavy commercial use; it’s escaped it all. It’s 12

miles from the centre of London; that’s got to be fairly rare.

504. CHAIR: The application is the second reading of the Bill.

505. MR BANKES: Absolutely, that’s true.

506. CHAIR: So that was the bridge we walked over from Savay House?

507. MR BANKES: That was it; it was a listed bridge from Savay Farm.

508. CHAIR: We went over it and we looked out across towards the lake.

509. MR BANKES: Absolutely.

510. CHAIR: You were with us then, weren’t you?

511. MR BANKES: Yes, I was, yes. I guess the lake has had one use for 60 years as

a fishery, believe it or not. It’s a huge participating sport in this country; there are 3

million people that do it, it’s a £1 billion industry. I feel the key to the venue is the fact

that it’s retained its identity throughout, it hasn’t gone into other interests; that is a large

part to it. Can I have the next slide please? Okay, the next one to that.

512. That is the actual site; that is Savay Lake. Those are the two areas of the lake

visually that will be affected by the viaduct. If I can move to the next slide? That’s the

actual location of it; there is an OS map showing Denham Station and Savay Farm on

your left hand side, and then the HS2 link to that original railway. The steady curve

from HS2 on a viaduct throughout that length is obviously a fairly staggering bit of

engineering to try and achieve. The speeds they will travel to gain that link; it’s a

considerable achievement, it’s a challenge. I personally think that right from the start,

as all of the petitioners have wished, it would be safer if it was in a tunnel. Can I have

the next slide please?

513. These are maps done by myself; it is quite a large site being 90 acres, but on the

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left hand side, this is my grievance, is that the supposed compulsory purchase – this is

including the Heathrow Spur, the bottom two crosses, the upper three crosses – that is

five crossing points to my boundary, which utterly fragments it. It will become an

impossible issue of access; I only have one access point, can you point to the uppermost

cross, other end, that’s it. That’s off Moorhall Road, and that’s the only way I can get

into that site; as I say, it’s surrounded by water. Quite improbably, due to the fact that I

can’t actually travel around the entire site by path, because the actual bankside goes into

a lakeside property in the top corner, you have to basically double back, which is a 2km

walk. If this is to be the case that means that I will go over the viaduct or under the

viaduct a possible 10 times on the same site. It borders on an amusement park status,

and it utterly trashes my ownership. I understand the term ‘cast a shadow’ it’s a grim

reality. Can I have the next slide please?

514. It is obviously a slide you have seen a lot today, the one on the left, but it does

depict the way the line falls to the lakes, and that’s absolutely correct. I made this slide

up through my own assessment of the measurements that HS2 gave me, because I need

to visualise what this was going to do to the place that I own. It is quite simple: you

cannot glorify concrete, it won’t happen. There’s the brilliant slide of graffiti earlier on

that absolutely summed it up. As I even heard you mention, there is very little

mitigation you can do with a viaduct, and the only way to do that is to try to get the

tunnel in light of what the London Borough of Hillingdon have suggested, and they do

say that it looks to be only 2% of the cost.

515. Also one point, I don’t know whether you have heard this before, but it would be

interesting to know an exact figure of freshwater that is to be passed over by the HS2

line as a percentage. It is fresh water, and I would imagine, I would be very sure, that it

would be a minute percentage in comparison to land. Therefore, I would have

personally felt that freshwater being what it is, it should be preserved at all costs.

Freshwater is our most precious resource; it should be protected.

516. I will have to say that from the start close to five years ago, I’ve always felt that

the viaduct through the Colne Valley, it has been depicted as an engineering

masterpiece, because there was a number of billboards that I looked at, before I had ever

spoken to an HS2 represented, that depicted this viaduct travelling over the property that

I own. That is a killing scene to me; to go to these meetings, and before I’ve even spoke

72

to them there’s the picture. It hurts. Next slide please.

517. Unfortunately, yes, as regards talks we didn’t get off on the right foot. There

was a surveyor I spoke to, and a week later a representative from HS2 rang us, his name

was Mark Eden, and he used a very poorly selected term, and he asked me whether I

would be ‘happy’ if HS2 could have access. Due to their previous actions I have not

taken that up, and it remains a definite ‘no’ until legal consent is gained. It’s pointless

getting entrenched in the issue, but I was disappointed that in the PRD from HS2 they

stated that the allegation of trespass that I appear to be alleging ‘that the promoter’s

officials have been trespassing at the petitioner’s property. The promoter does not agree

with this assertion.’ That’s where talks immediately break down, because it’s barely

worth saying, ‘I spoke to your surveyor on the phone and he said he was in the wrong.’

It would just make a lot more sense if you just would state the truth on that.

518. MR BELLINGHAM: That person climbing over the wall, who is that?

519. MR BANKES: That’s just the sort of general gauge; that is what you have to do

to get into several properties, and that’s what I imagine when a viaduct is in place how I

am going to be able to traverse my site. As I say, there is a possibility that I will have to

pass under the viaduct back and forth a total of 10 times, certainly five times.

Compared to what it is now, like I said, there is nothing on there; it is absolutely bare as

it is, so that was what that picture was for.

520. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It is illustrating that you will need to have easy

access to you site?

521. MR BANKES: Desperately, because of the way the viaduct draws, it is right

through my only access, for start, but then it also follows the entire length of the path

over the section that it crosses.

522. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can I ask if you have had discussions with the

promoters about access to your lake?

523. MR BANKES: Due to the issue with the trespassing, I have to say that I have

mistrust in what they say and it may not help my case.

524. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It is not a question if it helps your case, the issue of

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whether it would be helpful potentially to you to have discussions with them in limited

issues like access would be something which you may want to consider.

525. MR BANKES: Absolutely, okay. Can I have the next slide please? If I can

briefly, I won’t dwell on this too much, but the reason I am sat here talking about it is it

is a very, very special lake. It is a very special area of land, you have been hearing it for

the past two days; there is something unusual to it. Therefore I feel very much, in my

words, standing up for it along with everyone else. As Sally says, it was originally

owned by Frank Cakebread, who sold it to the extraction industry, and then this

remarkable combination appears where you mix water, a water table, with an ex-quarry

site to a landscape that is already there; everything benefits. That is worldwide, you add

freshwater to it anywhere, everything flourishes around it, and there is no question it’s a

manmade success; gravel pits are a manmade success.

526. This is where the point as soon as you get a piece of water, as soon as you get a

piece of water in a valley anglers spot it, and the angling community, all the surrounding

area, they set up clubs. The picture on the left hand side, there was a gentleman called

Donald Leney and in the angling world he was nearly a Capability Brown of the angling

world, because he had this wonderful strain of fish, the carp, and he puts them in this

lake. They are very long lived, they last for over 100 years, they live in a weightless

environment, and they are great value. A huge fishing interest has been created by the

undulation, of the way the pit is dug. It has great variant. It’s about surface area - under

water surface area - and also it’s down to the situation in the country, the soils, the pH,

everything’s correct, and also the very important fact that it isn’t meddled with; it’s

consistently kept as a fishery. It’s absolutely vital that fact. With that, the interest

increased greatly, particularly with Savay Lake.

527. Can I have the next slide, please? Due to the lake and the way it was and the

fishing, it bred this realm of enthusiasts and they really did get into it. They absolutely

loved it and they wrote about it. They write magazines. As I say, angling is a large

pastime and it caught on. Yes, absolutely.

528. If we can pass on to the next slide. As to the present day scene, there’s a great

shock. A chap called John Harry is there. I didn’t dare bring him here because he

would way outtalk me in stories of the lake because he has a love for the place - for over

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50 years - and it has to be special for that to occur.

529. MR BELLINGHAM: How big is that carp?

530. MR BANKES: That’s 54 lb. Yes, 54 lb.

531. MR BELLINGHAM: A big fish.

532. MR BANKES: Absolutely.

533. MR BELLINGHAM: It’s about the same size as him.

534. MR BANKES: Yes. They do last a long time. As I say, they last over a

hundred years and it’s key to the running of it.

535. MR BELLINGHAM: The new generation of fishermen in my constituency in

East Anglia tend to eat them, which isn’t very popular.

536. MR BANKES: No. No, that’s a true fly in the ointment. These do go back in.

537. MR BELLINGHAM: They’re always put back, yes.

538. MR BANKES: They have a great ability to learn. They become educated from

those that fish for them. It’s one of our greatest assets because a lot of the time they

don’t catch much at all, but still the pond is a renowned place.

539. CHAIR: Mr Bankes, I appreciate that actually you live in Ashton Keynes, which

is near the Cotswold Water Park, so you know all about this and clearly you’re very

enthusiastic about it. Could we focus on what you want?

540. MR BANKES: Absolutely.

541. CHAIR: If we can get through the slides quickly. think we need to focus on

solutions.

542. MR BANKES: Certainly. I quite understand. If we could have the next slide.

That actually is land close to Savay Farm. That’s where we stood the other day.

543. If I could have the next slide. That was the interest that the lake has generated

within the angling media, just a small example of it.

75

544. If I could have the next slide. Yes, you had a plan from that. The next slide

after that. This is just to gauge the interest in the lake. When HS2 was proposed, I

organised a handful of events that are held in the winter and we went to three shows and

it was just I was staggered at the interest in the venue. We collected, I think it was,

close to 6,000 signatures in six days. We ran out of paper and pens. I was taken aback

by the interest in it and it surely showed what a great place it was. There was also a

possible 15,000 signatures to the Stop HS2 website as well, all from anglers, and plenty

of them from Europe as well. It’s a well-known place.

545. Slide 14, please, the next slide. I love the term ‘controlled neglect’. I think it’s a

very important term. You don’t meddle with it too much. You just do enough to keep

the balance of a place and that is what that lake has, as with everywhere in the Colne

Valley. It’s a fabric. There’s consistency. There’s about five very large ownerships

that basically own this part of what is going to become the viaduct, but it’s the fact that

it is large ownership that it’s been well looked after. That’s key to it. It hasn’t been

fragmented.

546. If I can have the next slide, please. As I say, 12 miles from the centre of

London. I would like to explain this continuance with the gravel pits there and the

importance to it. Obviously you’ve heard of HOAC. Although it’s not my property, it’s

in the line. We all have an interest in how we look after our properties and HOAC is an

absolutely excellent place. It is the sound of summer to me. There are just hundreds of

kids sounding as if they’re having the best day of their lives to a drum beat at the end of

a day, singing time, to return to a home that’s so much smaller and not the environment

that they’ve been shown, that they’ve been provided with. They’ve been mixed with an

entirely different element and that has to be so important. It’s so close to the centre of

London, but that is key. If that is destroyed it’s just appalling.

547. Number 16, please. The next slide is just buckets and boats, as that’s the way we

do everything down there. That’s the way a lot of the Colne Valley park is dealt with.

It’s not traversed by too many roads. It’s key to it. It does make things longwinded, but

it does preserve.

548. If we could go to the next slide, please. This is hopefully getting up to current

times. This is my whole issue. This is the issue that I really, really do fear about more

76

than any other and it’s a term that I’ve tried to keep right from the start and it’s due to

mass fragmentation. As I’ve said, with larger ownership the quality of the land is kept -

there’s no question - because there’s more governance over that. It isn’t split and what

is said is generally dealt with. Although that is a sound map, I couldn’t find ‘How do

you depict mass fragmentation?’ through that length of the line, but I think that would

cover all aspects of the degrading of the value of the land that it travels over.

549. If I could have the next slide, please. With this mass fragmentation, there is a

term that I started hearing about a decade ago: it was just the term ‘irreversible’. That is

my greatest concern should the viaduct proceed: that it will fall into the realm of the

unwanted. It’s unquestionable that this will happen. After all, what does collect under

viaducts? National Trust guidance is not what I have found. With that, as regards the

venue that I own, the revenue is just immediately lost. You can’t mix the two together;

not sensibly or certainly not to the standard that it is at the moment. With that loss of

revenue, you lose your management funds - and this is just my site, but you treble that,

you quadruple it. It all adds up. This is the state that it will get into.

550. Every year we have issues with fly tipping and you have to constantly deal with

invasive species as well. It’s odd. It’s plants, Japanese knotweed, pennywort and

Himalayan balsam. You think it’s a plant, but it’s quite incredible given the opportunity

for that type of species to take place. It really does get a grip. Pennywort on the Colne

is absolutely extraordinary. It can grow up to, I think it is, around 10 centimetres a day

and it will clog our waterways, hence the flooding last February. Even though the

Environment Agency tries to keep on top of this, it’s just too prolific. It needs constant

attendance. I think that is a major point.

551. Next slide, please. This is the one slide that I find is right about where my

possible realistic nightmare will reside: the picture on the right side. There are a lot of

waterways in this country like this unfortunately presently at the moment and it does

take a lot to keep a value to a place. I find that it’s quite a picture because it’s very true

and it’s seen very regularly. Everything floats in water. If it falls in it floats. Even

from construction there will be quite an amount of it that will float. It’s not a river. It’s

not a bridge over a river. It’s a still water. It’s contained. It’s a water body that can’t

move. It will just blow from one end of the lake to the other.

77

552. I have to say, this was the first time in five years that HS2 actually made me

laugh. Could you actually pull up your slide of P5380? There we go. I received that

two or three days ago and I thought that HS2 are going to cover it in a way that I found

so disappointing. It was almost as if it really wasn’t worth sending to me because that

shows that there’s great ignorance in what is suggested there. You’ve taken poor

advice. Exactly the opposite happens with disturbance: fish are attracted to it.

553. If I could return to my original slide. What happens if a viaduct is to go ahead?

I immediately have serious trouble with the value to my stock. It’s quite extraordinary.

The actual value of the stock, due to the fact that it was stocked by Donald Leney, is

probably close to half the value of the actual land. The stock is worth an awful lot of

money. It’s irreplaceable. It’s like the cornice in this room. It’s like the fireplace over

there. You just can’t get it again. It doesn’t happen. It’s not possible. The picture

that’s supplied by the Environment Agency saying ‘Warning’ is the sign that they’ve

supplied for what has obviously happened on a lot of different venues. It’s big trouble.

My policing of the situation while this is going ahead is that it will become very

impossible. You will be getting aggravation - intense aggravation - over it.

554. Also, interestingly enough, in my deeds for Savay Lake, I understand that it is a

reserve London drinking reservoir so I take it that Affinity Water can pump from my

lake should a drought occur - a really serious drought. I contacted Affinity and they sent

me a letter saying that the mitigation was going to be handled by HS2. I found that

concerning considering the PDF they sent me to do with fish stock. So I hope they will

be sharp on that issue. This is unusual. I happen to know it’s all down to an aquifer that

they’ll pump from. It’s not even in this country. It was done in Florida, where an

aquifer was heavily pumped from to prevent a winter crop from freezing over, and there

were a lot of sink holes. I think sink holes is an issue.

555. CHAIR: Can we get back to solutions for your particular problem?

556. MR BANKES: Certainly. Can I have slide 21, please? Obviously when it

comes to the whole issue, you look into rail lines all over the world, particularly high

speed, and the grief that comes with them. I find this is concerning. I have to say

though that, in comparison, the accuracy and efficiency of tunnelling the line through

mountains and under seas; I watch in absolute, respected disbelief at these extraordinary

78

feats of engineering that ultimately could save this country’s landscape, especially when

there is proven to be only an extra 2% cost to the procedure.

557. Next side, please. It’s not on my point, but it’s just the last slide. The older

gentleman in the slide down there is called Pete Broxup. He’s the man that made it

happen because he was incorruptible. It was a voluntary job passed on from Redlands

Angling. They said that he could bailiff the lake. He did it for nothing and he did since

1980. He has sadly passed away since. Without these people - and there’s a lot of them

in this country - they’re individuals that look after these sites and they keep this country,

good percentages of it, as it is. They’re vital. It’s vital that you have them in place. But

he always said to us, all the time he said, that the lake comes first, the anglers come last.

It’s always the lake first. There are thousands of anglers; there is only one lake. I feel

it’s so important that the land in the Colne Valley that is planned to be crossed is lost

forever because I’m absolutely certain that in a hundred years’ time this vast, gangly,

shining viaduct, the biggest in the land, may well be looked at as a hated, disrespectful

eyesore that could well have been proven to be of very little use at all and, what’s more,

our ethics as to the true worth of the ground that we and the past have trodden on may

be far higher than in these current times.

558. The last side, please. That’s about where it remains. That’s the view over the

Broadwater Lake as it is presently. It’s a big scene. I think we need big scenes to go

and stand in once in a while, which aren’t vandalised by infrastructure. That’s where

I’ll leave it. So my wish is, finally, for a tunnel for the Colne Valley.

559. CHAIR: Okay. You take it as a given that most people want a tunnel. On the

assumption that the Bill at the moment is that there is a viaduct, what we were trying to

get out of you is what you wanted changed so you could get access and continue your

business as best as possible.

560. MR BANKES: That was explained. Yes, I tried to explain this at the start of the

slideshow. I think it was the fifth slide in.

561. CHAIR: The way the process works essentially is that there is a petition, HS2

responds to the petition and that should start the negotiation. Often it doesn’t, but

sometimes it does. Where you have landowners or people with businesses, quite often

they will stand outside in the corridor with a map and say: ‘If you could switch that

79

there, or give us access there, or if you could change that and if you compensate me for

my loss of business, I can continue’. At the beginning of your presentation, you said

first that you haven’t had any discussions with HS2, which is a slight difficulty if you’re

in the process of negotiating. If you can tell us what you want in terms of access to your

property then we can ask HS2 what it can do. All the other stuff is interesting, but I still

do not know what you want.

562. MR BANKES: Okay. What I would like, if a viaduct is going to take place and

it’s going to be compulsorily purchased off me, is that I have access to that land for the

future.

563. CHAIR: All right. Where on your land do you want access? If you could point

it out on the slide.

564. MR BANKES: It’s basically all the land that’s going to be compulsorily

purchased because that’s the only way I can get around my site.

565. CHAIR: Okay. I’m not sure that is a possibility because that’s being taken all

by the line. All right. Let us go to Mr Mould. How can we solve this problem so the

gentleman and those enthusiastic about the lake can get to his land?

566. MR BELLINGHAM: Can I just make an observation? Do some of the

fishermen fish by boat or is it all from the bank?

567. MR BANKES: They don’t. It’s always too much trouble in a boat with

accidents.

568. MR BELLINGHAM: Would they be able to get to the other side of the viaduct?

569. MR BANKES: No.

570. MR BELLINGHAM: They wouldn’t?

571. MR BANKES: This is the trouble.

572. MR BELLINGHAM: They just wouldn’t?

573. MR BANKES: A hundred per cent. They can only traverse it by going under

the viaduct three times to get to the –

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574. MR BELLINGHAM: You’re not going to lose the water the other side of the

viaduct, but the only way that could be fished is by a boat; in other words, it couldn’t be

fished from a bank?

575. MR BANKES: Literally yes, because the viaduct actually goes through my only

point of access. It would. The only way to get around that site would be by boat.

576. MR BELLINGHAM: I can see the amount of fishing that is going to be lost, but

in terms of the quality of the fishery, how much will be lost?

577. MR BANKES: I would certainly say that if you were to look at sound and a

train every four minutes, it’s a sort of impact that I can’t gauge at the moment.

578. MR BELLINGHAM: Okay. Thank you.

579. CHAIR: You will have to if you want to put in a claim for compensation.

580. MR BANKES: Okay. Well, then I would say that I will lose 50% of my lake,

which is 45 acres.

581. CHAIR: All right. Mr Mould?

582. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you. The brief comments I make are based on

the assumption that the railway goes ahead and, as you said, sir, that the railway is on a

viaduct through here. Mr Bankes of course can maintain his position on those points,

but I think we can still talk to each other with that being understood.

583. As I understand it, his current point of access is from Moorhall Road, broadly

speaking at the point that I am showing with the cursor now. It may not be entirely

accurate, but it is broadly in that location. I am told that we foresee no difficulty in

principle in maintaining access to his property from that point or thereabouts. It may be

that we will have to look at the detailed location as part of the detailed design of the

viaduct through there, but we foresee no difficulty in maintaining access. The question

here for negotiation is to work out, ideally in close collaboration, a plan for the

construction of the railway on viaduct through the northern part of the lake and for the

permanent arrangement, which would involve discussions about possibilities for

restoring to Mr Bankes land that was needed for construction purposes, or part of it, but

81

subject obviously to retaining the necessary rights to maintain, repair and manage the

railway structure in perpetuity. That is something that needs to be discussed. The only

way we can resolve that is by talking to each other. We also need to talk about how we

are going to construct the viaduct as far as we reasonably can so as to enable him to

continue to run his commercial angling operations in the lake.

584. The slide that he showed you which he said he disagreed with, which talked

about the means of mitigating the impact of construction noise on fish, is in fact the

established and conventional approach based on the advice we have from Mr Thornely-

Taylor, who himself has considerable experience of this kind of construction. I am not

going to ask him to come into the witness box now because of the hour, but that is the

basis for that slide.

585. CHAIR: So if Mr Bankes provides some evidence of how the business is doing

in terms of income and the impact of the likely construction then that is a point where

some compensation may be payable?

586. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. We would like to talk to him about how we can

actually construct the piers that we need to put in the lake because we need to take steps

ideally to enable the fish to continue to occupy the majority of the lake. We will need to

be in the part of the lake that you can see, running across the northern side of the lake,

and we will need to construct the piers to take the viaduct across there and then lay the

track across it. We expect that it will be necessary to construct some form of cofferdam,

something of that kind, locally to those piers. It may be sensible to contemplate, for

example, putting a net across the lake so as to ensure that the fish are kept well away

from the works. This is the kind of thing that we need to talk about so that we can try

and minimise the impact upon him, both of construction and operation.

587. The other point I would make is this. He mentioned that he was concerned about

the increased costs of managing the lake. He was concerned about the build-up of weed

and so forth. He tells you that he is running this, I think, as a commercial operation. He

takes a fee from people who come and fish there. He owns the land. If the effect of

having a railway on viaduct across his lake is to increase year on year the management

costs of running his business then in principle he will be entitled to recover that as part

of his compensation claim. That would be a disturbance claim. These things are often

82

dealt with on a capitalised basis: you work out what the annual increased costs of

management are, you capitalise it on an appropriate basis and then that sum is then paid

by way of compensation. These are all matters that we need to talk about. The sooner,

frankly, we can start talking about them then the better progress we will make. None of

that need prejudice his overarching view that the railway, if it goes through here, should

go through here in a tunnel. We can have that conversation, as lawyers say, without

prejudice to his argument in that respect.

588. CHAIR: I think they can sort your problem, but we can’t do it in the Committee.

You’re going to have to go and talk to HS2, however difficult that is, and sort out a

solution. Mr Mould, can you come back to the Committee, probably after the General

Election, if we’re all here, have survived and are alive, and report back on what happens

as a result of that and if there are any difficulties?

589. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I can. I can certainly report back, yes.

590. CHAIR: Okay. The whole point of the railway should not be to destroy

businesses and people trying to make a living.

591. MR BANKES: Okay.

592. CHAIR: I’m sure that with your experience, knowing that lake as you do, it will

be advantageous if you can have your input so that as much mitigation can be done as

possible.

593. MR BANKES: Absolutely, yes.

594. CHAIR: It may be at the end of it that one can save much of what you’ve got.

595. MR BANKES: Okay.

596. CHAIR: Okay. Thank you, Mr Bankes.

597. MR BANKES: Thank you.

598. CHAIR: We come to the last petitioners, who I think are together, who are

Sylvia Ball, David Crofts and Alexandra Smith.

Sylvia Ball and Alexandra Smith

83

599. MS MCINTYRE: I’m informally helping both petitioners with what they want

to say and so I’ll do a little bit of introduction and then let each of them speak for

themselves on specific points, if that helps.

600. CHAIR: Okay.

601. MS MCINTYRE: We have a slide on the screen at the moment that shows the

petitioners’ property down at West Hyde. You heard earlier on from Liz Hall about the

other end of West Hyde. This is where Sylvia lives, at the other end of the long lane

that was described - so the other end of the construction site.

602. What we want to do is not revisit the themes about the impact of the construction

site that Liz has already eloquently presented to you - we’ve heard enough about that

already today and the matters apply equally to these two petitioners - but we do want to

touch on aspects of those things that are slightly different and that vary a little bit from

what you’ve heard already, particularly from Ms Smith, who lives a little bit further

away in the Maple Cross area.

603. If I could move to our own slide, A994(2), please, the next one, we’ve titled this

one ‘HS2 construction versus West Hyde’ because I think you can see from the red area

on there the field that we’ve been talking about all morning, the area we’ve been talking

about all morning, does give us this real David and Goliath sense and I think that’s

really how all three or even four of the petitioners you’ll hear from this area feel about

what’s in front of them. It is a daunting prospect and whatever way you look at it, as

we’ve heard, they’re going to be left with a lot to contemplate. Ms Hall earlier on

explained the nuts and bolts, if that’s a way of putting it, of the construction sites, but

one of the important areas of this is this road which we’ve talked about a lot - the A412 -

which runs along the front here, directly in front of the petitioners’ properties. That road

is important, not just for local traffic and getting to the shops but really to the whole of

the petitioners’ lives. I think Ms Smith would be the one who would explain that in

more detail really and the extent of the impact, not just from somebody who lives in

front of that site at West Hyde but from further along the Maple Cross area. So

Alexandra?

604. MS SMITH: I’m very nervous. Sorry. I have lived in Maple Cross for

24 years. My house is approximately one mile from the Chiltern Tunnel compound and

84

Chiltern Tunnel portal and is approximately 70 metres as the crow flies from the A412.

We’re just a small area in Maple Cross. The population is approximately 2,000 people.

I chose the locality for the proximity to my sister and family. The journey to her house

in West London is approximately 30 minutes outside of rush hour. I also chose the area

because of the beautiful countryside and the relatively easy journey to London. I love to

walk to the surrounding lakes and canal towpath. Before moving to the area, I travelled

through the area on my journey to work and I simply fell in love with the views. I’m

very happy living here, which makes the arrival of HS2 and its construction a bitter pill

to swallow.

605. Maple Cross, as I’ve already said, is a small community. We have

one convenience store with a Post Office counter, a café, no pub and we do not have a

doctors’ surgery or chemist so we have to travel by car or bus for these services in Mill

End or Rickmansworth and also into Uxbridge, mainly using the 412. We do have two

narrow lanes at the back of our area which take us to the Chalfonts.

606. Since living here, I’ve built up a very good social network in the local

community which I would be very sorry to leave. I am at present working part time to

supplement my pension, but age is against me. My working days are coming to an end.

My worry is that I may well have to downsize to realise capital to finance full

retirement. This will inevitably be during the long construction period. The disruption

to our lovely area, noise pollution and traffic congestion would drastically affect the

saleability of my property, resulting in my property being worth less than the market

value. This point is backed up by a local estate agent.

607. I would now like to go on to the traffic congestion that is going to happen in

Maple Cross and I would like the map, P5254, please. During the closure of Chalfont

Lane to local traffic - Chalfont Lane is going to take the construction vehicles onto the

M25, so it is going to be closed, I believe for approximately five years and six months -

there will be a temporary new road linking Shire Lane and Hornhill Road. The

diversion will take traffic onto Hornhill Road and turn left into Woodland Road. These

are narrow residential roads. Woodland Road is on a bus route - which, by the way, was

omitted from the Promoter’s information that was sent to me last year. This route is the

324. It goes to Mill End and Rickmansworth, Watford and Watford General Hospital, a

very important route for local residents. Woodland Road is used by junior and nursery

85

school children. An access alleyway from Woodland Road takes them into the school,

which is near the junction with the 412. At the junction with the 412, it is always very

difficult to turn in either direction, especially when the M25 is blocked - which is very

often - and traffic always comes onto the 412. I have carried out a survey of the traffic

that uses the Chalfont Lane. I counted 150 vehicles in a one-hour period. At the

junction with the 412, there is a roundabout which helps with traffic flow. At the

junction with Woodland Road and the 412 there is not a roundabout so the extra traffic

is going to cause significant congestion on a road completely unsuitable and it is always

in very bad repair. I would also like to ask that the construction vehicles are banned

from using these roads and core working hours are strictly adhered to.

608. I’m sorry, but I am going to carry on with the traffic on the A412. I know we’ve

heard a lot about it today, but it does really impact on my life. I have to travel into West

London on a regular basis to support my sister and her family. Her daughter has autism

and during the last five years her husband has been suffering bad health. My visits often

involve transporting my niece to appointments as my sister is not a driver. If the A412

is blocked, at present I can take a cut through, but of course during the HS2 construction

this will not be an option as all of these areas are going to be severely affected as well.

As it happens my journey to work would also be affected. I work in Amersham. That is

if I’m still able to work by then.

609. My last point is about air pollution. I’m very concerned about the dust and

health risks to West Hyde and Maple Cross residents. I’m anxious about a friend who

lives on the Denham Way, which runs along the A412. She also suffers from COPD,

like the lady we heard before, and I’m really concerned, as this lady was, that all of the

extra HGVs are going to maybe lessen her life. It will certainly make a lot more work

for those that care for her. Sorry, it wasn’t my last point.

610. CHAIR: There are MPs that do that sometimes!

611. MS SMITH: This is regarding noise. Of course I can’t comment technically on

noise, but I would disagree with the Promoter’s response, which says the scheme is

unlikely to cause an adverse effect. I know how noise travels in my house. When the

wind is in our direction, I can hear the M25 and even fireworks coming from as far

away as Harefield. Can I ask if the HS2 landscape earthworks and landscape mitigation

86

planting is going to be put in place before the compounds are constructed? That’s at the

edge of the Chalfont Lane. That’s to protect Maple Cross from the noise.

612. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes.

613. MS SMITH: Thank you. I would also like to say that in the maps that I was

sent last Friday, which was a bit late - I have to say, all of that information that was sent

was rather too late given that we were here today - I did find some mistakes on there.

One of them is that they called Maple Cross ‘South Harefield’.

614. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I am sorry. We meant no offence.

615. MS MCINTYRE: I think the point is not to pore over a mistake, but it’s to

suggest –

616. MS SMITH: Yes, it’s P5328. There was another one I noticed as well.

617. CHAIR: They were imperfect? All right.

618. MS SMITH: Yes.

619. MS MCINTYRE: The issue about that was really it was extra time taken to try

and work out what the maps were telling us.

620. MS SMITH: We do get a bit forgotten in Maple Cross, but it’s a bit much

calling us South Harefield!

621. CHAIR: Okay. Is that it?

622. MS SMITH: Yes. Thank you.

623. CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms Smith.

624. MS MCINTYRE: Just to follow up on what Ms Smith has said about the air

quality, there is an answer, we noticed, in the PRDs to all petitioners about air quality

but it refers to information that’s taken from Swakeleys roundabout in Ickenham. We’re

not sure whether that’s just an additional point or whether it was meant to address the

concerns about Maple Cross, but it didn’t make sense to us to have assertions about

Ickenham answering the point.

87

625. MS SMITH: Could I just make one more point? After hearing that they’re

going to mix concrete at West Hyde, is that going to have a big impact on the air quality

in West Hyde and Maple Cross?

626. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No. I am just looking at the very page in the

environmental statement where we deal with potential effects on air quality from the

construction works in this area. Our assessment does not predict any adverse effects in

terms of air quality arising from the presence of the construction site at West Hyde.

This is a site where, as the Chairman pointed out earlier, there is a great deal of

construction activity going on and we will need to make sure that the arrangements for

suppressing dust and so forth, which are set out in detail in the Code of Construction

Practice, are applied to full effect at this site and they will be.

627. CHAIR: I used to work in an office next to a concrete plant and my car twice a

week had to be cleaned as a result of it, but I think things have improved.

628. MS MCINTYRE: Let’s move on then. Can I go back to slide A994(3), please?

We’re going to talk about the compensation schemes, but in order to set the scene for

that I’d like to ask Mrs Ball just to tell us her story and particularly leading on to the

considerations that are in her mind as she is facing the current situation.

629. MRS BALL: Good afternoon and thank you for hearing me speaking. My

neighbours before me have also said about the concerns regarding the noise and the dust

and the vibration and the pollution, which you’ve already heard. I want to reiterate it

also and especially after you saying about the cement being mixed in the construction

site opposite to us. When wind is coming from the south or west, surely there must be

something coming across our properties. How can you say none of the properties in

West Hyde will be not affected when the train is up and running? It runs across our

road and parallel with us. Surely a long tunnel will be better for the environment. The

largest compound construction (sic) for the HS2 is in a field opposite my house.

630. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can I just ask you to put up for a moment

slide P5331 so we can see where the line is on the bottom left and we see your house on

the upper right. It is a large scale map.

631. MRS BALL: Well, it’s not that far.

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632. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It’s close. Thanks so much. Sorry to interrupt you

but it gives context.

633. MRS BALL: The large construction site is opposite my house. As you’ve

heard, there’s contamination in Pynesfield with asbestos. Last year, permission was

refused for gravel extraction on those grounds: of it affecting the air pollution and also

affecting the water table. These are concerns that are bothering us in West Hyde.

634. When there’s an accident on the M25, as you’ve heard, the A412 becomes

snarled up. This happens many times. How can we be assured that the site vehicles will

not be using our narrow lanes? I understand you’re going to construct a slip road on and

off the M25. Would it be possible that between junctions 16 and 17 that the

construction vehicles would have sole use of the hard shoulder? I believe there are

motorways around where hard shoulders are not used. Would that be possible? It

would stop them having problems when the motorway is snarled.

635. CHAIR: Mr Mould answers at the end.

636. MRS BALL: Yes, okay.

637. CHAIR: Are we on compensation?

638. MRS BALL: We’re getting there. Not yet.

639. MS MCINTYRE: We’re scene setting.

640. MRS BALL: As I say, when there is a problem and the motorway is snarled up,

the lorries would be using our lanes and that round there. Old Uxbridge Road and

Coppermill Lane will be used as a cut through for the site constructions. Some while

ago, I counted 600 vehicles pass my house in a one-hour period. If we’re having the

construction site vehicles as well, it’s going to obviously increase it.

641. I understand the spoil from the works is going to be spread over our fields in

front of our homes. You’ve not stated how high and how many tonnes will be dumped.

The construction site is a large area and the water run-off from there will surely run

down the road and the hill, causing flooding in Old Uxbridge Road. I understand you

have spoken about the pond, but I’m the other end of the road. Also, could the water

89

table be contaminated? They extract water from the bore in West Hyde for bottling.

There is also a pipe that runs from Pynchfield Manor, across the fields, across the

construction site, which was pumping water into the Misbourne some years ago, when

the Misbourne was running dry. That is the water that is coming from the bore at

West Hyde. We are having sewage problems down there and they were pumping into

the centre of the road as early as two weeks ago so I don’t think it’s been solved yet.

642. My gravest problem and my concerns is that I’m 77 years old. My husband

passed away last year. I’ve got a four double bedroomed house with a 190-foot long

garden. What assurance can you give me that when the time arises I will be able to get

compensation for my home at the full, un-blighted amount? I want to make the decision

as to when I will go and not be forced to leave my home. I don’t need the stress at this

time of life. I want to be able to sort my finances out so I can control my future care.

643. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: You fall into what I would call ‘age and stage’.

With an application on those grounds it would be surprising, frankly shocking, if it were

not accepted. The other thing, which you may have heard from others, is that with an

application under what’s called ‘need to sell’, but I call it ‘age and stage’, it is perfectly

normal, especially after the sad loss of your husband, if that were accepted, you would

not have to go straightaway, but you would have plenty of time to make a decision as to

where to live next. So I think there is an understanding on the Committee and I think

probably by the Promoter as well, and certainly the panel should understand, that

someone of your maturity and situation does not want to be a full time gardener next

door to a construction site if there are other things you can do with your time.

644. MRS BALL: But I want to make the decision.

645. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Indeed. We’ve got that, but it would need an

application for you to have it bought.

646. MRS BALL: And it’s the hassle of it all.

647. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: That, I am afraid, is unavoidable.

648. MRS BALL: You see, then you’ve got the blight problem which I think with the

position of my property you’re going to look out the front window and you’re

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immediately looking at the site.

649. CHAIR: But need to sell disregards that and then they would rent the property

out until they sell it after the project has finished, in which case they might make a profit

on it.

650. MRS BALL: Okay.

651. CHAIR: Okay.

652. MRS BALL: I’ll just finish it off then. The homes in West Hyde have already

been blighted. There’s been a bungalow on the market for the last two years down there

and still it has not been sold. I understand that the construction will be active for

between eight and ten years. We will have noise, vibration and dust. It’s the disruption

caused before the train is up and running that will have the adverse effect on the people

living in this area, as well as the train. I’m trying to make proviso for my old age and

HS2 is making it very difficult for me because I haven’t got time on my side. Thank

you.

653. CHAIR: Thank you.

654. MS MCINTYRE: We’ve been talking about the need to sell scheme several

times today and clearly the petitioners are trying their best to respond to things that are

coming up so that we’re not revisiting the same points, but I think the issue that we

really would seek some reassurance on now, understanding that we’re being urged to go

and try the need to sell scheme as part of helping you with a review of it; the petitioners

feel a bit like guinea pigs in that respect, that they have to go and go through the

motions and try it. Yes, they will, but what we would like some reassurance on is, if

they do that, are they in some way jeopardising their position or prejudicing their

position, not in terms of petitioning here but in terms of their property? Are they

starting to introduce artificial disruptions into the local property market by suddenly

going and trying this need to sell scheme? I think we need to think that through a bit

before the petitioners are encouraged to simply go and have a go at need to sell. I think

we would reiterate the point that most of them at the moment don’t need to sell - and

neither of them wants to sell. Like Ms Hall before, the issue is they’ve been feeling

there’s just no alternative. It’s going to be difficult to say what is their case to put to this

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Committee. It’s not about needing or wanting; it’s having to.

655. CHAIR: Unless you live right next to the line. The thing about the scheme is

that there is no geographical area, but it is people who are affected. So it does give that

option and we will be monitoring it. Okay. Do we have a gentleman coming in to fill

one of the slots in a moment?

656. MS MCINTYRE: We haven’t actually had responses yet.

657. CHAIR: Sorry. Okay, Mr Mould?

658. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Could I just say on that last point, and I hope the

Committee will understand that I say this in the spirit of being constructive, that the

need to sell scheme is of course going to remain open, as you know, until a year after

the railway opens and so there is no pressing obligation on people who don’t feel at the

moment that they wish to make an application to do so. The advantage to them insofar

as their remedy with the Committee of course is that the Committee will cease to sit and

will report well before that date arrives.

659. CHAIR: Hopefully!

660. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: The pressure of our interest will not be there.

661. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Exactly. But the scheme will still be operating and

there will still be an independent panel which will be reviewing cases and there will still

be remedies available because there is a procedure to enable people to reapply and there

is a procedure to enable people to raise a complaint about the way in which their

application has been handled. Although I don’t advocate it, on the final analysis, if

someone feels that their case has been handled really so badly - I hope it won’t happen,

of course, and I don’t believe it will, but if someone were to feel that their case had been

handled so badly, that the scheme simply hadn’t been properly operated - then they

could have recourse to the law.

662. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Also in between, which is why we still have the

single-member constituencies, they can go to their Member of Parliament.

663. MR MOULD QC (DfT): They can go to a Member of Parliament. Yes, I’m

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sorry. As you know, there’s always a sense of the ultimate. But there are those

remedies available. I say that in the spirit of trying to be reassuring. People shouldn’t

feel that they have to rush to make an application if they don’t want to do so, but as the

Committee has made clear, if I will be allowed to say this, there is obviously an

advantage whilst the Committee is sitting in the fact that it is keeping a close eye on the

process.

664. MRS BALL: You only have three years, do you, if you needed to?

665. CHAIR: No, no.

666. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If you make an application and you receive an offer

then that offer will remain open for a period of three years.

667. CHAIR: And you can reapply.

668. MS SMITH: If you reapply, you have to go through the same process of giving

evidence?

669. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, but in reality, if your circumstances have not

changed significantly then you will be able to say on a reapplication: ‘Look, things

remain as they were when you last considered my application’.

670. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: The difference between the new scheme and

exceptional hardship: exceptional hardship required urgency; the need to sell has the

word ‘compelling’ instead. They can’t come back to say: ‘Look, you didn’t go in the

first three years so it wasn’t urgent’. Urgency doesn’t matter. The compelling reason is

still there. It should be treated the same way as it was before.

671. MRS BALL: Can I say something. My husband had a serious stroke in 2006

and I nursed him. You’re saying the urgency. Supposing 18 months down the line or

something like that I suddenly had a stroke and I’ve got to have permanent nursing care.

Would I fall into a similar thing?

672. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It would be very surprising. If someone had a

serious change in their health and the home wasn’t suitable, or for health or social care

needs they want to be closer to a friend or relation or a hospital, I’d expect that to be

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accepted.

673. MRS BALL: Because I’m quite close to Harefield and I’ve got to go there

tomorrow, but also you’re talking about the road. My son uses Chalfont Lane and he’s

nine minutes away from me where he lives. You’re going to be closing that road and

it’s going to take him another half an hour.

674. CHAIR: Shall we go to Mr Mould to answer your point?

675. MR MOULD QC (DfT): There would be a strong case for that being

compelling justification.

676. MS MCINTYRE: I think the additional reassurance we would want is that in a

circumstance like that we wouldn’t have to have the three months of attempting to sell.

677. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I can name three places, yours is one of them,

where if you’re actually beside the construction site and the Committee has heard

evidence from a successful estate agent - who is still here I think - that he wouldn’t take

on a property, that would be almost certainly accepted as a substitute for three months of

active marketing.

678. MS MCINTYRE: Great. That’s reassuring. Thank you.

679. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I am not trying to give business to Mr Gibbs the

whole time!

680. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Can I just put up slide 5334, please? I have selected a

slide that was provided to Mrs Ball. I hope that is helpful. Mrs Ball’s property is shown

with the red outline. This shows the position at West Hyde following completion of

construction and it just shows the bund to the northern side of Chalfont Lane - reopened

by this stage - that will provide visual screening to those living in Maple Cross. It also

shows a bund that will run along the eastern side of the A412 that will be constructed in

order to provide visual screening to those who live to the east of the A412.

681. MS SMITH: That’s the tree line that’s already there, is it?

682. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Sorry. Did I say ‘bund’? I do apologise. It’s planting,

yes.

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683. MS SMITH: There’s already planting there.

684. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, but this will be to thicken it up. The idea is that

we improve the screening.

685. MRS BALL: So you’re obliterating our view?

686. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Let’s say we’ll try and draw a balance between giving

you some screening from the railway and maintaining your view.

687. MRS BALL: I won’t see the railway because the railway is in a tunnel by then

and I’m further down.

688. MR MOULD QC (DfT): All right. We are trying to draw the balance. So I

draw attention to that. You asked about levels. The area which is in that triangle of

land in the northern part of the former construction site at this stage is an area which is

intended to be devoted to grassland habitat. That is an area where in terms of levels we

expect the levels, broadly speaking, to revert to their existing. The mounding, as you

can see, is going to take place to the south and to the east of that area. I explained that

when I was responding to an earlier petitioner earlier on this afternoon. So that’s the

position with levels. There is a cross-section - slide P5487 - and these are cross-sections

that run along the eastern side of the completed works at West Hyde. They just give

you a sense of the levels where the mounding was located that I showed you on the

previous slide. So that gives you a sense of the degree to which we’re adding/raising the

ground - and the greatest area of raising is in the middle section, which is in that area

just running across the very centre of the West Hyde site - so as to provide noise and

visual screening from the railway to create the cutting. Do you see? All right. So that

is that.

689. You asked a question about whether we could use the hard shoulder of the M25.

We believe that that would be a challenging prospect because it’s discontinuous along

that stretch of the motorway and to create a continuous lorry route along the hard

shoulder would therefore require substantial extra construction works and land take.

Whether there is any room for some degree of hard shoulder running is obviously a

matter that will be for discussion with the Highways Agency, but I’m afraid I can’t give

you any commitment on that. It’s something that would have to be considered.

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690. I think I’ve covered the points that you’ve asked questions about.

691. MS SMITH: Can I have your comments on the diversion?

692. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The diversion?

693. MS MCINTYRE: The Chalfont Lane diversion.

694. MS SMITH: Chalfont Lane will be closed to normal traffic.

695. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, it will be. That is shown on slide P5335. It is, as

you have said, I think, to enable quite substantial numbers of construction lorries to use

those temporary slips on the M25.

696. MS SMITH: I’m actually talking about the diversion. Because normal traffic

won’t be able to go up Chalfont Lane, you’re putting in a road that links Shire Lane and

Hornhill Road and then all the traffic that normally uses Chalfont Lane will go around

Hornhill Road and into Woodland Road, which are very narrow residential roads and

are not really suitable for taking any more traffic.

697. MR MOULD QC (DfT): On the basis of the traffic information that we have,

based on local baseline traffic figures and our own predictions, we have assessed

whether this will operate satisfactorily given the levels of traffic that we can expect

throughout the construction works and our assessment is that this will operate

satisfactorily.

698. MS MCINTYRE: Can I just ask you to clarify? My understanding was that this

was new to you when you saw this response last week.

699. MS SMITH: Yes.

700. MS MCINTYRE: I’m looking at the date on the map, which is 17 February.

Was this a fairly recent proposal to move traffic round there because it was news to

people who had scrutinised these documents?

701. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No, this was something that was included as part of

the environmental statement so this forms part of the Bill scheme.

702. MS SMITH: How come we’ve never seen it?

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703. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The map itself was created for the purposes of

responding to your case in the Committee, but the actual information is set out in the

Community Forum Area report, CFA7. If you’d like us afterwards just to point you to

the relevant section, I’m very happy to do that.

704. MS MCINTYRE: That would be fine. I think it’s testament to the difficulty of

dealing with these documents because I know these ladies have pored over them, as we

have, for many months.

705. MS SMITH: My concern is the extra traffic coming down Woodland Road. It’s

already difficult to turn onto the 412 and there’s a school there and there is no

roundabout. It’s going to be horrendous on that road.

706. CHAIR: Can I just make the point that HS2 has to get the agreement of the

county council for these things. The county councils have all sorts of traffic information

as a result of traffic movements so this is not something that unilaterally and necessarily

happens. There will be further discussions. I suggest, Mr Mould, that if you are

concerned, have a word with someone from HS2 outside and see whether there might be

a better solution. Okay? Final comments?

707. MS MCINTYRE: Can I go to slide A994(4), please, just to accompany the final

comments of the afternoon? I’ve put this up to say that you’ve seen dozens and dozens

of pictures of this before, but you’ve never seen one like this before and I’m not calling

it a ‘view’ this time. It’s a landscape. It’s a landscape in the truest form of the word.

This one was painted by the talented lady on my right as a gift for another neighbour.

It’s not a view from her window. It’s emphatically not. It’s a view from Chalfont Lane.

I’m stopping calling it a ‘view’ to remind us that it’s a landscape we’re talking about.

It’s not a fixed thing. It’s not something you look at through trees, which is always the

same or from a single point; it changes. Most of the visual mitigation and other

mitigations that are being put in place seem to treat it as though it’s a static thing that’s

looked at from one point. We feel that that’s inadequate. It doesn’t do justice to the

landscape. It doesn’t do justice to what people will lose.

708. CHAIR: Thank you very much, ladies. It wasn’t too bad a process, was it?

709. MS SMITH: I’m just starting to stop shaking!

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710. CHAIR: You were getting warmed up there! I thought for a minute we were

going to be here all night! Right, David Crofts.

David Crofts

711. MR CROFTS: Could we show the location of my property, please, which is

slide 5421. In other words, I’m in pole position for a view of the construction

compound and the railway. I live in a late sixteenth century and partly late seventeenth

century house, which my wife and I bought 40 years ago, before there was an M25. We

have a large garden of an acre. We keep some very interesting rare breeds of different

kinds of poultry which we’ve bred over many years, some of them unique. We have a

tennis court, which is heavily used by us and some friends and by my extended family.

I think perhaps I need to go to another diagram, possibly the next one in the pack might

do it. Yes, I think it does. The compound is immediately opposite.

712. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If you point to your screen, magic will reproduce

it!

713. MR CROFTS: All right. The compound is here, I think, so I’m a couple of

hundred metres away from the edge of the safeguarded area and that’s the location. I

have a question later as to what this safeguarded bit is on the east side of the A412.

That’s new to me.

714. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s the landscaping I mentioned earlier.

715. MR CROFTS: I’ll return to that, if I may. I have four points very quickly.

There has been a lot of talk about a compensation scheme and I’m reasonably happy

about that. I’m 75 and my wife is 71. We’ve got a big property, a big garden. It won’t

be long before we can’t handle it, and it’s been explained that that puts us in a really

favourable position, but I have two questions about the compensation scheme. One is

that in the actual application form, there is a sentence: ‘Reason to sell your property…

to avoid a situation of unreasonable burden’. Further on in the document, where it gives

many examples of documentation that you might supply to support your argument, a lot

of them concern one’s broader financial situation and I’d like to suggest that that really

has nothing whatever to do with it and I ask for some clarification on that. The second

thing is I’ve heard a rumour - it is only a rumour - that if it’s necessary, if HS2 were to

98

acquire the property and, as has been mentioned recently, that they’re getting to let it,

there would be a deduction in respect of any expenditure needed to be made to make it

lettable, which in the case of my listed property could be quite a lot. It really isn’t a

lettable property. Those are two questions for clarification on the compensation

scheme.

716. My next point is that on the drawings I was sent last Friday it showed a section

across this here. I can’t imagine how anybody decided that that was the section to draw

- it was certainly not at right angles to the front of my house and neither was it at right

angles to the line between my house and the railway - so I communicated with HS2 and,

to give them credit, they have responded with new drawings which I was given this

afternoon showing different sections, but that now reveals that in order for me not to be

able to see the railway there is going to have to be a 14- or 15-metre raise of the level of

the land between me and the railway. If I look at the drawings of the shape of the

viaducts and various things on slide 5488 - it is not on a good enough scale to see here -

from my property to parallel with the black-marked track, which is the gravel road along

there, is a gap in the bund, if that’s the right word. So I’m not convinced that I won’t be

able to see the railway. Leave that aside. My major concern is not that because I’ll

probably be dead before it’s built.

717. I’m much more concerned with the compound. I’m very close to the main

compound and there is going to be considerable disturbance. My house has no

foundations. They just stood the timbers on the ground and compacted mud when they

built it in 1590-something or 1580-something. The house vibrates every time a lorry

moves along the A412. The windows shake when heavy lorries go along the A412 now.

There is construction work going on now to rebuild or adjust the entrance to Tilehouse

Lane. The construction traffic and the earth-moving machinery is really loud inside my

house and the windows rattle and they are working right on the edge of where the

compound will be.

718. I was interested in the comment about the reversing noise of lorries. Well, the

people doing the construction for this new entrance to Tilehouse Lane certainly are not

using earphones. They’re making one hell of a noise when they go backwards. So

another of my questions will be: can we have a guarantee that these earphone systems

will be used. I find it quite hard to believe that a whole range of subcontractors are all

99

going to do it. However, maybe I’m wrong.

719. My next point is dust. I believe something like four million tonnes of matter

from the Chiltern Tunnel will be deposited immediately in this area.

720. CHAIR: It might even be eight million.

721. MR CROFTS: It might even be eight million if they go the other way as well.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. I don’t know about the land going south, but going north it’s

chalk so it’s going to be mostly chalk. This material is going to be brought out,

temporarily stored in various piles, which are shown in these drawings, and at some

stage in the future this will presumably be used to build up the land by 14 or 15 metres

up towards the railway. We have a southwest facing aspect from me to the compound

and my neighbours also in West Hyde. In dry weather, it defies belief that the number

of movements of lorry loads of chalk going around is not going to create significant dust

and the prevailing wind will bring it towards us. A comment has been made about

various protocols and whatever the word is for systems that are used to control these

things. I just don’t believe it. I think that there will be substantial dust.

722. My final point is about the bund to the compound itself. It has been mentioned

that there would be screening along the A412. I really think that’s completely useless

and I really don’t see why there could not be a bund along either the east or the west

side of the A412 continuously from somewhere north of Chalfont Lane to down the end

where Liz Hall is, on the other end of Old Uxbridge Road. I would specifically like

HS2 to consider doing that and for the Committee to press it. I think a few scruffy trees

or a dense row of scruffy trees - which is what it would be - is not going to protect us

from the noise and the dust and the dirt. Thank you, Mr Chairman. That’s it.

723. MR BELLINGHAM: Just to raise a point, the A412 - the

North Orbital Road - that was basically the orbital road before the M25 was built, was

it?

724. MR CROFTS: Yes. The Old Uxbridge Road was the original main road.

725. MR BELLINGHAM: So the Old Uxbridge Road is to the north of your

property. Then south to the property is what was the old ring road and it is now just an

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A road?

726. MR CROFTS: Yes.

727. MR BELLINGHAM: I say ‘just’. It is obviously still pretty busy.

728. CHAIR: When you are suggesting a bund, are you suggesting that they build a

bund along the road and plant it for the period of the construction?

729. MR CROFTS: For the period of the construction.

730. CHAIR: You need some security hoardings, but you could put those behind the

bund or something and all people can see is a bank.

731. MR CROFTS: I think something that will protect the village from dust and

noise. Incidentally, I missed one point. I am sorry. If I may just add one thing on

noise. I forgot to say that the sound expert who was here yesterday or the day before,

and I watched on the live thing, made a passing mention to wind blowing noise and

temperature inversion and he said these were effects that would increase the level above

the figures shown and he described them, I think, as occasional effects.

732. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I’m not sure he quite said that. I think he said the

sound would not be attenuated or reduced. I thought I heard him say that they were

maximum estimates and in many cases they would be lower.

733. MR CROFTS: It would be lower because of inversion?

734. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: No.

735. MR CROFTS: I don’t think so.

736. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It will be on the transcript anyway so we can

check, but I think what I heard him say was that there were certain conditions where the

sound would not be as high as predicted, forecast or estimated and that the figures that

were given to us were in effect the maximum that would be expected.

737. MR CROFTS: No, I don’t think that’s exactly what he said.

738. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It will be in the transcript so let’s not argue about

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it.

739. MR CROFTS: I’d like to just explain the point. The M25, which is a mile to a

mile and a quarter away from my house, when it was built had a concrete surface and it

was quite noisy in West Hyde. Some years ago they put in a blacktop surface and it’s

completely quiet except in cold mornings, when I can hear the M25 clearly inside my

house. I have no double glazing. The local authority doesn’t think I should have it in a

grade two listed house and even if they did it would probably cost me £100,000. West

Hyde is a frost pocket; a well known one. In any direction you go from West Hyde you

have to go uphill, east, west, north, south, any direction, so what happens is you’ve got

frost. Every day when the air temperature is below about five degrees and the air is still,

we get temperature inversion. This is very unusual and I think that this should’ve been

taken into account. I wouldn’t expect HS2 to have known about this, but I think it

should be taken into account because I think the sound propagation is more serious than

they have considered.

740. CHAIR: Thank you, Mr Crofts. Mr Mould?

741. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If I may say so, Sir Peter is right. The scheme

assumed exactly what you have just described, as I understand it. I will check that, but

my understanding of Mr Thornely-Taylor’s evidence was that it assumed the reasonable

worst case.

742. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Not the worst, the reasonable.

743. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, as you have just described. But I will check and

if I am wrong about that, I will make sure that I correct that on the record.

744. CHAIR: Thank you.

745. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If we can put up slide P5424, please. I just want to

deal with the question of noise protection during the construction works. I think it is

important just to note that the main compound for the Colne Valley viaduct is proposed

to be located in the north-eastern corner of the construction site and fairly substantial

earth works will be carried out in order to create the mounding that I mentioned in

response to an earlier petitioner, which will provide permanent noise and visual

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screening to the cutting as the railway emerges from the tunnel. In those circumstances,

although nothing is guaranteed at this stage, I think it is unlikely that a bund along that

boundary would be a sensible means of trying to provide noise mitigation. It is far more

sensible to look to use fencing to screen out all or substantial elements of the main

construction compound itself and then, as I indicated earlier, perimeter hoarding

appropriately designed and in keeping with the area along the perimeter of the

construction compound. That would be less land greedy. It would probably, I would

have thought, be more acceptable visually and it would actually give rise to less

prospect, to some degree, of dust, I would have thought, because if you’re putting up

mounds along the road there is greater propensity for dust to be created than if you put a

fence there. That is a point, perhaps a small point, that I think is more likely to be the

solution here. What we’re concerned about is output. We’re concerned about

something that’s actually going to be effective. Our position generally is that noise

fencing is at least effective as bunding in terms of providing noise insulation. So that’s

the answer, I think, to that.

746. In relation to the other matters that you raised, we expect and intend that the

mounding along the north-eastern boundary of the railway should provide effective

visual screening. As I said in response to an earlier petitioner, I don’t say that there will

be no views at all of the railway or railway infrastructure, but it is intended to provide

very substantial visual screening.

747. CHAIR: Will the barriers be visible?

748. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Sorry?

749. CHAIR: There is a barrier there, isn’t there, briefly?

750. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. There is that earthwork, if you remember, and

then as you move towards the viaduct then you have a barrier. So particularly in the

vicinity of the petitioner’s property it will be effectively an earthwork. I think the other

matters, if you will forgive me, have been dealt with earlier.

751. MR CROFTS: Not the need to sell scheme questions.

752. CHAIR: There were a couple of questions about financial information and the

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need to sell scheme.

753. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, I am sorry. I did have to deal with that. I do

apologise. The answer on the condition of the property is this. The valuation of the

property is based upon its un-blighted, open market value and clearly the condition of

the property is a factor that may affect the value that is placed upon it. I think that’s the

approach that is taken.

754. MR CROFTS: That is not what I asked actually. There seems to be an

inference, or I draw an inference from the documents, that there is some information

required about one’s general financial circumstances outside the specific property, yes

or no?

755. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Sorry. Is that a question for me?

756. MR CROFTS: It’s a question.

757. CHAIR: Mr Crofts was making the point that there is some financial

information requested under the scheme and he is questioning why the people that make

the decisions need all the information they need.

758. MR CROFTS: It asks about ISAs for example. These are examples. Why is it

anybody’s business whether I’ve got an ISA?

759. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The Secretary of State and the Government, in

formulating the scheme, have explained that in order to understand and to make a

judgment about whether there is a compelling reason to sell they require the independent

panel to have a broad understanding of the personal circumstances and the financial

circumstances of the applicant.

760. MR CROFTS: Is that reasonable?

761. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That is the approach that the scheme is based upon and

that is the judgment the Government has made. I would have thought that some might

say that if a discretionary scheme is being put forward, which is designed to give

appropriate assistance to those affected by the generalised blight of the railway, that the

public interest demands that there should be at least a reasonable level of understanding

104

of the personal and financial circumstances of those who are making the application.

That is the way in which the scheme has been drawn up.

762. MR CROFTS: I appreciate the clarification, but at no time has that been

mentioned in any of these meetings.

763. CHAIR: I think in some cases people who need to sell have a compelling reason

because of their financial circumstances.

764. MR CROFTS: Indeed. I understand that.

765. CHAIR: That’s why you need financial information, nut when you’re designing

a form you might ask for financial information for everybody. It’s a bit invidious if

sometimes you ask different things. It’s a bit of a checkbox. But I agree with you.

766. MR CROFTS: I understand that, but I think I’ve just been told something that I

suspected and didn’t like is true.

767. CHAIR: I think it’s a Government scheme asking for too much information

which they don’t need, which no doubt somebody logs and makes a job out of it. All

right. Okay.

768. MR CROFTS: I had another question about the scheme.

769. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I just want to check. I may have taken your questions

in the wrong answer, but I think you did ask about the degree to which the condition of

the property might reflect in the value and I have answered that one for you?

770. MR CROFTS: Not really.

771. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Okay.

772. MR CROFTS: Perhaps you could just expand on it because I’m not sure I quite

understand that.

773. MR MOULD QC (DfT): My understanding was that you were concerned that if

a property was in poor condition –

774. MR CROFTS: No, that’s not what I said. If the property was not suitable for

105

letting. I’m saying that in my case because it’s a listed building, it’s big, but it’s only

got one bathroom, it requires an enormous amount of ongoing maintenance which a

genuine free market buyer would enjoy, as I have, and that would make it more difficult

to let than some house with four bedrooms and three bathrooms that was built yesterday.

775. CHAIR: The value is the value essentially, Mr Crofts.

776. MR CROFTS: That’s my point.

777. MR MOULD QC (DfT): And that was mine.

778. CHAIR: The MP for Stafford has said he’s had a couple of cases where he felt

people were being pressured to reduce the money because the property had to be rented

out. That should not be part of the scheme. It’s a valuation for the property as it stands.

779. MR CROFTS: Thank you very much for that clarification.

780. CHAIR: Or at least that is how it should operate, but we are keeping this under

review.

781. MR CROFTS: I’ve heard stories.

782. CHAIR: Quite.

783. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I am happy to confirm that. That was what I was

intending to convey.

784. MR CROFTS: Clearly if it’s a wreck I understand that, but I’ve spent a fortune

on my house. It’s pristine, but it is an old house. It would be very difficult to let it.

785. CHAIR: You’ll tell all potential buyers your foundations aren’t very good!

786. MR CROFTS: But it’s been there for 400 years.

787. CHAIR: I’m sure it will last a bit longer.

788. MR CROFTS: Thank you very much.

789. CHAIR: Anyway, thank you for also being brief, Mr Crofts. I do think my

initial thoughts are that this area is heavily impacted by the site and I think we are going

106

to need to think of a way where there can be good communication between the

residents, most of whom I suspect will wish to stay providing they can stay and still

enjoy a reasonable life. So talk of environmental airy-fairy bodies covering a larger area

I don’t think is going to be very relevant here. I think we need something a bit more

direct.

790. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It’s an area where I would have thought the local

environmental management plan has an important role to play, which I hope isn’t going

to be airy-fairy. I hope it’s going to be effective.

791. CHAIR: Let’s say we have the nominated undertaker. Somebody is in charge of

that construction site. Presumably, if somebody from that community was delegated to

pick up complaints and maybe have a dedicated phone line – There isn’t a pub, is

there?

792. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No.

793. FEMALE: Yes, there is.

794. MR CROFTS: Yes, there is a pub.

795. CHAIR: There is a pub. Good! Okay, we may go back! Essentially, let’s call

him Mr Smith. There’s a Mr Smith on the construction site, whoever he is, who can

actually communicate with somebody locally so if there’s a real problem, there’s dust,

there are problems with vehicles, that can be communicated very quickly so it can be

dealt with.

796. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That sounds an excellent idea. I agree.

797. CHAIR: Okay.

798. MR CROFTS: I know that Three Rivers District Council, who will be before

you later on in the year, are very keen on this local environment plan.

799. CHAIR: The idea essentially is that if there is a problem to fix it rather than go

through a complaints procedure - because it’s affecting people’s lives.

800. MR CROFTS: Yes, absolutely.

107

801. CHAIR: All right. The end of another long day.

802. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Can I say one thing on that because it may help the

petitioners? I have asked the project to prepare an exemplar local environmental

management plan and what we will do is we will prepare that, so we will fill in that

template if you like, and then we will put that on the website, we will show it to the

Committee and it will give people an idea of what it’s likely to consist of.

803. CHAIR: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr Mould. Thank you, Mr Crofts. At

the end of a long day. Irder, order. If you could clear the room, please, and give us five

minutes to just clear our thoughts.