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29/11/2011 301TE11/0446

JARILOPUB00301 JARILO PUBLIC29/11/2011 pp 00301-00378 HEARING

COPYRIGHT

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION

THE HONOURABLE DAVID IPP AO QC

PUBLIC HEARING

OPERATION JARILO

Reference: Operation E11/0446

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AT SYDNEY

ON TUESDAY 29 NOVEMBER 2011

AT 10.05 AM

Any person who publishes any part of this transcript in any way and toany person contrary to a Commission direction against publicationcommits an offence against section 112(2) of the IndependentCommission Against Corruption Act 1988.

This transcript has been prepared in accordance with conventions used inthe Supreme Court.



29/11/2011 302TE11/0446

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson.

MR WATSON: Thank you, Commissioner. May I call James Garry.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Garry is not represented?

MR WATSON: No. Mr Garry’s evidence is purely for form of character.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Garry, why don’t you take a seat there,please. Mr Garry, you’re not legally represented are you?10

MR GARRY: No, I’m not.

THE COMMISSIONER: No. And I need to explain something to youbefore you give evidence. I don’t think it applies to you, but I’m duty

bound to explain this to you. I can make an order which has the affect thatnone of the evidence you give can be used against you in criminalproceedings or disciplinary proceedings or civil proceedings. As Iunderstand it, the likelihood of the need for that arising is remote, butnevertheless if you would like me to make an order of that kind, I will. Do20you understand what I am saying?

MR GARRY: Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. What would you like me to do?

MR GARRY: No, it’s not necessary, that’s fine.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Do you wish to give yourevidence under oath or do you wish affirm the truth of your evidence?30

MR GARRY: I’ll affirm the truth of my evidence.



29/11/2011 GARRY 303TE11/0446 (WATSON)

<JAMES GARRY, affirmed [10:07am]


MR WATSON: Just before we start, you don’t need to lean forward to (nottranscribable). Is your name James Garry?---Yes.

But you’re commonly known as Jim?---Yes.10

Actually I’m sorry, you will need to come forward a little, just - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: Or just move the microphone.

MR WATSON: Yes. Are you the Director of Security at the Four Seasons

Hotel?---Yes.

Located down in The Rocks?---That’s correct.

And you were in that position, that is Director of Security, as at 2009?---I20believe 2007.

Yes, since 2007 until the present day?---That’s correct.

Now as such, you’ve acquired a full understanding of the security andmanagement systems put in place down at the Four Seasons?---Yes, that’scorrect.

Now in terms of the Four Seasons, they have a system of room keys. Is thatso?---Yes.30

And the type of key used is not a conventional door key, it’s a kind of swipecard?---Yes, it’s an electronic swipe card.

So that it operates something like a credit card and you insert into a deviceon the door which can open the door. Is that so?---The key can be placed

against the door facing and an electronic signal will open the door.

The usual practice or at least the typical practice is that any person bookinginto the hotel would be given two such room keys?---Yes.40

Now I ask that the witness be shown page 669. You’ve got a screen thereMr Garry, you may be able to see it. ICAC came to speak to you and ask you about bookings made on a particular night, 15 July, 2009. Do yourecall meeting with ICAC about that?---Yes.

And you were able to produce a record for ICAC which you can see there in

front of you?---Yes.



29/11/2011 GARRY 304TE11/0446 (WATSON)

And you can see that it relates to a particular room number on a particulardate?---Yes.

And you can from that tell us who booked the room, when they booked inand when they checked out. Is that so?---That’s correct.

And so we can see that the person who booked the room was SenadKaminic?---Yes.

10And we can see, can we, that the price of the room was $325?---Yes.

And that that payment was made up front?---Yes.

At least it was made so that there was no balance on the room?---That’s

correct.

And if the witness could then be shown page 672, Mr Garry, you can seethere a printout, it seems to be an image recording something which wouldappear on a computer screen and what we can see - it’s a fairly faint image,20but nonetheless we can see that there’s a reference to this (not transcribable)that is Senad was going to be booking a room?---Yes.

And you can see that the room was booked - if you look below the roomwas booked on 15 July, 2009 at 22.31?---Yes.

Or 10.31pm, is that so?---That’s correct, yes, that’s correct.

And then we can see the time at which at least one person returned a roomkey, is that so?---The record shows 03.16 a key would have been returned30for that to be recorded on the system.

Well, just to explain it, it shows 3.16am on the next day, 16 July, 2009?---Yes.

And under the system which then (not transcribable) at the Four Seasons

that entry would be made when somebody checking out of the room firstreturned a room key?---Yes.

And then the entry is made in the system?---Yes, that’s correct.40

I tender those two pages, Commissioner.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Is this an invoice at page 669, Mr Garry,what is this document which shows the price of the room and the paymentfor the room? What is the document? How would you describe it?



29/11/2011 GARRY 305TE11/0446 (WATSON)

MR WATSON: On its face it’s described as an information invoice. Is thatso, Mr Garry?---Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Very well. Exhibit 13 is the information

invoice from the Four Seasons Hotel showing an arrival on 15 July, 2009and a departure on 16 July, 2009.

#EXHIBIT 13 - INFORMATION INVOICE FROM THE FOUR

SEASONS HOTEL SHOWING AN ARRIVAL ON THE 15/07/09 AND10DEPARTURE ON 16/07/09

THE COMMISSIONER: Exhibit 14, how would you describe thedocument at page 672, Mr Garry, what is it?---The image that is seen is a

copy that was transferred from our reservations database, it is all OPERAand is it basically a reservation system, information is placed in that generalsystem for our records.

Thank you. Exhibit 14 is a copy of an extract from Four Seasons’20reservation database for 15 July and 16 July, 2009.

#EXHIBIT 14 - COPY OF EXTRACT FROM FOUR SEASONS

RESERVATIONS

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Watson.

MR WATSON: Thank you, Commissioner. They’re the questions for this30witness.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale?

MR HALE: No questions.

THE COMMISSIONER: No questions. Mr Terracini?

MR TERRACINI: Nor have I.40

THE COMMISSIONER: Any questions from anyone else? Thank you foryour evidence, Mr Garry, you are excused?---Yep.

THE WITNESS EXCUSED [10.15am]

MR WATSON: Commissioner, may I call Senad Kaminic.



29/11/2011 GARRY 306TE11/0446 (WATSON)

THE COMMISSIONER: Is Mr Kaminic represented?



29/11/2011 307TE11/0446

MR WATSON: He has representation from Mr Hudson.

MR HUDSON: Good morning, Commissioner. Hudson, H-U-D-S-O-N. Iappear for and with Mr Kaminic.

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?

MR HUDSON: I appear for and with Mr Kaminic.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, with leave.10

MR HUDSON: He’s just outside.

THE COMMISSIONER: With leave.

MR HUDSON: Thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: Please be seated, Mr Kaminic. Mr Hudson, doyou want me to make a section 38 order?

20MR HUDSON: Yes, Commissioner.

THE COMMISSIONER: Pursuant to section 38 of the IndependentCommission Against Corruption Act, I declare that all answers given by MrKaminic and all documents produced by him during the course of hisevidence at this public inquiry are to be regarded as having been given orproduced on objection and accordingly there is no need for him to makeobjection in respect of any particular answer given or document produced.

30PURSUANT TO SECTION 38 OF THE INDEPENDENT

COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION ACT, I DECLARE THAT

ALL ANSWERS GIVEN BY MR KAMINIC AND ALL

DOCUMENTS PRODUCED BY HIM DURING THE COURSE OF

HIS EVIDENCE AT THIS PUBLIC INQUIRY ARE TO BE

REGARDED AS HAVING BEEN GIVEN OR PRODUCED ON

OBJECTION AND ACCORDINGLY THERE IS NO NEED FOR HIMTO MAKE OBJECTION IN RESPECT OF ANY PARTICULAR

ANSWER GIVEN OR DOCUMENT PRODUCED.40

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Kaminic, you understand that this ordermeans that none of the evidence you give in these proceedings can be usedagainst you in civil or criminal proceedings or in any other disciplinaryproceedings?

MR KAMINIC: Yes, I do.



29/11/2011 308TE11/0446

THE COMMISSIONER: But you understand that that doesn’t protect youshould you not tell the truth in this proceedings and that is proved againstyou?

MR KAMINIC: Yes, I do.

THE COMMISSIONER: And you understand that the, that giving falseanswers to the Commission is a serious criminal offence which carries amaximum penalty of gaol of up to five years?

10MR KAMINIC: Yes, I do.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Watson?

MR WATSON: Is your name Senad Kaminic?

MR KAMINIC: Yes.

MR WATSON: So sorry.20

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I beg your pardon. Do you wish to giveyour evidence under oath or do you wish to affirm the truth of yourevidence?

MR KAMINIC: (NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to swear on the Bible or not?

MR KAMINIC: On the (not transcribable)30


MR KAMINIC: I swear on the (not transcribable)


MR KAMINIC: No, not on the bible.

THE COMMISSIONER: No.40



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 309TE11/0446 (WATSON)

<SENAD KAMINIC, affirmed [10.17am]

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson?

MR WATSON: Is your name Senad Kaminic?---Yes.

Now, Mr Kaminic, I can’t help but notice that you’re a tall man. Do youknow how tall you are?---197 centimetre.

10And, Mr Kaminic, I also notice that you wear your hair today in what I’dcall a ponytail. Has that been a custom of yours for some years?---Yes.

Mr Kaminic, some years ago you were involved in security work andthrough that work you came to meet and then to know Lucky Gattellari. Is

that so?---Yes.

And eventually you became to be employed by Mr Gattellari?---Yes.

And you were employed by one of his businesses, a business called IC20Light, at Chipping Norton?---Yes.

But really in substance you were working with Mr Gattellari on a near dailybasis, working as his driver and as in effect his personal assistant?---Yes.

And so your time with him was fairly constant over the last few years?---Yes.

Or at least up until fairly recently. Through Mr Gattellari you were at somestage introduced to Mr Ron Medich?---Yes.30

And you know who he is?---Yes, I know him.

You were also taken on many occasions to The Tuscany Restaurant?---Yes.

And when Mr Gattellari would dine at The Tuscany Restaurant, would he be

commonly in the company of Mr Medich?---Yes.

Would you sit at their table or another table?---I do, but if it’s something,you know, serious matter business, no.40

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I can’t hear, Mr Kaminic.

THE WITNESS: I used to sit with them but if it’s some discussion aboutserious business I never sit with them.




MR WATSON: All right. Well, could I put it this way perhaps. Generallyspeaking you would sit with them but if they had something serious orimportant or critical to talk about you may be put at another table?---Correct, yes.

And did you meet Frank Moio?---Yes, I do.

And did you get to know him pretty well from your occasions at TheTuscany?---Yes.

10And during those years I’m talking about 2008 and 2009 were yourattendances at The Tuscany for lunch quite common?---Yes.

Near daily basis. Is that right?---You could say it like that.

Well let’s put it this way, virtually every week you would have lunch atleast once at The Tuscany?---I believe so.

And some weeks you’d have lunch there every day?---Correct. Yes.20

Less commonly you would have dinner at The Tuscany. Is that so?---Yes.

Now sometimes in your group or in the people who you sat with at TheTuscany there would be this group of young Asian women. Is that right?---Yes.

And sometimes you would be given the job of driving them to and fromplaces and the like?---Yes.

And they were there quite often were they?---Not really.30

Just on occasions?---I can say a few times.

Well could I ask you were there occasions when you and Mr Gattellari andMr Medich were seated at the same table as the young Asian women?---Yes.

And that happened more than once?---Correct.

Did you ever meet the Minister, Mr Ian Macdonald?---I never met him40personally.

It was pointed out to you at some stage who he was?---Yes.

Now I want to take you back to a particular night, the date is 15 July, 2009.But I think you’re not much good with dates. Is that so?---I can’t rememberdates, but - - -




Well I want to remind you of this event by reference to something whichhappened. Was there a night when you were at The Tuscany Restaurantwhen you were asked to drive a young Asian woman to the Four Seasons

Restaurant in The Rocks?---Correct. Yes.

And then on the same night you ended up at Mr Medich’s house in PointPiper?---Yes.

Now I want to ask you about the circumstances of that night. You went to10The Tuscany that night?---Yes.

Who had told you to go to The Tuscany that night?---I came together withLucky.

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---Mr Gattellari.

Mr Gattellari?---I came together with Mr Gattellari.

You came together with Mr Gattellari?---Yes.20

MR WATSON: You travelled to the restaurant with Mr Gattellari?---Yes.

Did you have anybody else in your car?---On the way over there I can’tremember was anyway.

In any event you arrived at The Tuscany and you sat at a table?---Yeah.

Did you sit with Mr Gattellari?---Yes, I did.30

Were other people already at that table when you arrived or were you thefirst ones to that table?---I sort of remember, I believe we were the first.

And did other people join that table after you had sat there?---Yeah.

And who were those other people who joined you at that table?---I believe it

was Kim Shipley and who else (not transcribable) another few girls.

There were a few girls?---Yes.40

Do you remember how many there were?---I remember four.

So there was yourself, Gattellari, Shipley and the four girls. Is that so?---AsI remember.

Did Mr Medich ever join you at that table?---He was for few minutes andthen - - -




When he was there for those few minutes did he sit down at the table?---Icannot remember this.

All right. In any event you were sitting at the table with a group of people

and some time during the night you were asked to leave the table. Is thatso? Somebody spoke to you as a result of which you left the table and wentto the Four Seasons?---Yes.

Who spoke to you?---Lucky Gattellari.10

And what did Gattellari say to?---To take certain person to Four SeasonsHotel, get a room over there.

Right.


MR WATSON: To take a certain person to the Four Seasons Hotel - - -?---And get a room, put her in the room.

20And to put her in a room?---Yeah.

Now when you say a certain person, was this one of the young Asianwomen at the table?---Yes. Correct.

Do you remember the name of the particular woman?---I can’t remembername.

I’m going to suggest a name to you, Tiffanie, does that ring a bell?---Couldbe.30

In any event Gattellari came to you and told you. Is that the only detail hegave you or did he give you money or any other means of acquiring theroom?---He gave me $400.

In cash?---Yes.

And did you then travel with the young lady?---Yes, I do.

Did you go in her car or your car?---In her car.40

I think you had driven Gattellari to The Tuscany that night?---Yes, I do.

Did you do something with the keys to your car, did you give them toGattellari for example?---Should be.

And so you travelled with the young lady in her car to the Four Seasons. Do

you remember arriving at the restaurant, sorry, the hotel?---Yes, I do.




And was the car taken away by valet parking?---Yeah.

Now, on the way to the Four Seasons after you got into the car with the

young lady, did you talk to her?---Yeah, we have a chat.

Right. Did you talk about things relevant to what she was going to do at theFour Seasons?---Yes.

What did she say, what did you say?---I told her, you know, why she’s there10for. Actually she was already told, then I just- - -

Well, what did you say when you told her what she was there for, what didyou say to her?---Just told her she was, she’s going to meet some gentleman,she’s just staying in the room as long as required and to do what she is

asked to do.

Right. And- - -?---Or already said to do.

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---Or already, it was- - -20

It was already- - -?---It was already organised through Lucky what to do and- - -

MR WATSON: When you said this, are you using polite words? You don’tneed to, you can tell us exactly what was said. If the language was crude orthe conversation crude, you need to tell us what was, what were you talkingabout?---Oh, it is nothing rude, she was told she’s going to meet agentleman in the room and they should, you know, spend night in the roomand probably she was told she’s going to have sex and- - -30

Did she say to you anything which indicated that she already knew that thatwas her task?---I can’t recall that.

In any event, you arrive at the Four Seasons.

THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, Mr Watson. You said that, I think you said twice that she already had been told what she was going to dothere?---I believe she was told but that’s- - -

40What makes you believe that?---I believe all these girls, they know whythey’re over there because they are told before and asked to do certainthings and I believe.

Are they girls who you knew?---Yeah, I, I think I knew all of them. Maybeone I met first time over there.

And I’ll leave that to you, Mr Watson.




MR WATSON: You arrive at the Four Seasons. The car’s taken by thevalet parking. Did you go inside the reception area?---Correct.

Did you approach the reception desk?---Yes.

What did you do?---Booked the room.

Booked the room?---Yep.10

And we’ve got some evidence which suggests that you used a MasterCardto book the room?---Yes, correct.

And that was your MasterCard?---Yes.

And you took the $400 in cash as a repayment for whatever you expendedon your MasterCard. Is that so?---Yes.

When you, I should have asked you this earlier. When Gattellari told you totake the young lady to the Four Seasons Hotel and to book a room, did he20tell you what you had to do with the room key?---Yes.

What did he tell you?---To give to Mr Medich.

Did you receive a room key or keys from the Four Seasons reception desk?---Yes.

What did you do after that?---Go in the room and, with the girl.

Well, did you go back to the young lady?---Yes, she was maybe a metre or30two away from me.

Did the two of you go to the room?---Yep.

Did you open the door?---Yes, I did.

And did you leave her in the room?---Yes.

And that was the last you saw of her, at least that night?---Yes.40

And then where did you go?---I go downstairs back in the same place asreception.

Now, at the Four Seasons Hotel there’s a large foyer near the receptionwhere there are a number of chairs?---Yes.

Is that, you were sitting there, were you?---Yeah.




So you sat there and waited?---Yes.

And for whom were you waiting?---For Mr Medich.

And did Mr Medich come?---Yes.

And did he approach you?---Yes.

Did you have a conversation with him?---Yes.10

What did he say, what did you say?---I just give him a key, I say here is key,I was told and - - -

You gave him the room key?---Yes.

Did you then wait for Medich?---Yes, I wait for him.

He went away somewhere did he?---I remember he went upstairs.

THE COMMISSIONER: Did he go alone?---I believe he walk by the stairs.20

Alone?---Yes.

MR WATSON: When you saw Medich he was by himself, is that right?---Yes.

And you gave him the room key and then he moved by himself to anotherpart of the hotel?---Yes.

Now - - -30

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr - sorry, Mr Watson.

Mr Kaminic, there were two hotel keys that you got, weren’t there, whenyou booked the hotel or just one?---I believe two.

So you gave one to Mr Medich or two?---Oh, I say I remember one, anotherone left in the room.

When you left the girl behind in the room you left the key there too?---I40believe, I’m not a hundred per cent about this one but I believe.

MR WATSON: When you walk into the Four Seasons Hotel from the streetthere’s the large foyer area where you were seated and behind that there’s abig staircase which goes up to a level above, is that right?---Yes.

Is that the staircase you saw Mr Medich mount when he walked away with

the key?---Yeah, I think so.



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 316TE11/0446 (WATSON)/(TERRACINI)

And did Mr Medich ever tell you who he was taking the key to or why hewas taking the key?---In this moment I cannot remember.

All right. But in any event, did you wait for Mr Medich to return?---Yes.

And did you then travel with Mr Medich to his home at Point Piper?---Yes.

And there you met Gattellari and others?---Yes.10

And eventually after some time at Point Piper made your way home?---That’s correct.

Thank you, Commissioner. That’s the - - -


MR HALE: Pardon me. No cross-examination.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini?20

MR TERRACINI: Just very briefly, Mr Kaminic, have you been to thathotel before?---I cannot remember. I believe I was one more time there butbefore or after in the foyer, I cannot remember.

The big staircase that’s in the foyer, you know that that leads to a bar?---Ithink so.

Can you see people in the bar from where you were standing in the foyer?---I can’t remember it.30

Well, did Mr Medich say anything to you like he’s just going up to have adrink or anything like that?---No, he says he’s going to give key and I knewfrom before to whom and I cannot remember did he tell me in this momentor not.

Well, approximately how long was he up in the bar, sorry, up at the top of the stairs?---Maybe five, five, 10 minutes maximum.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini, if you’re not going to ask to whom40I am.

MR TERRACINI: I’m sorry, Commissioner.

THE COMMISSIONER: If you’re not going to ask this witness to whomhe knew the key was going to be given - - -

MR TERRACINI: Oh, no, no, I was going to ask it - - -



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 317TE11/0446 (TERRACINI)/(HALE)

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, very well, if you’re going to ask then I’llleave that.

THE COMMISSIONER: You understand the key was going to be providedto someone?---Yes, I do.

And who told you who that person was?---Lucky Gattellari told me it’sgoing to be for Mr Macdonald.

10Right. And did you have any idea who Mr Macdonald was?---Yeah, Iknew.

So Gattellari gave you the money to book the room?---Correct.

And basically other than providing the key to Mr Medich all of thearrangements to your understanding at least were made by Mr Gattellari.

THE COMMISSIONER: All the arrangements for the hotel.20

MR TERRACINI: Yes?---For the hotel, yes.

Yes, thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale, in the light of that evidence I invite youto cross-examine if you wish.

MR HALE: Mr Kaminic, do you read the newspapers (not transcribable)?---Hardly ever, hardly ever.

30Do you watch news programmes on television?---Yeah, I do.

Do you take much of an interest in politics in New South Wales?---Notreally.

Did you, did you have any understanding who Mr Macdonald was in 2009?

---As I understand was Minister.

Yes. Who told you that?---I been told from Lucky and Mr Medich and alsoa few times saw on TV.40

And you say that, were you actually told by Mr Gattellari that the, that thekey was ultimately for Mr Macdonald?---Yes.

What did he say? Can you remember?---Can you tell me question, I don’tunderstand what you mean what he says?



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 318TE11/0446 (HALE)

You I think told us that you had been, perhaps you didn’t, when did you firststart driving for Mr Gattellari?---I did know him I believe 2005, 6.

From 2005 and 2006 you regularly drove Mr Gattellari around Sydney?

---Yes, I do.

In that period of time you regularly attended lunches and dinners at TheTuscany Restaurant?---I did later.

Yes, later. But by, by 2009 you regularly attended lunches and dinners at10The Tuscany Restaurant?---Yes, I do.

You regularly drove people for at the request of Mr Gattellari?---Yes, I do.

You regularly drove girls for Mr Gattellari?---I do not can you call it

regularly, but if I been asked, yes.

And when were you first asked by investigators of ICAC about the events of 15 June, 2009?---Maybe ten, 11 months ago. Something like that.

20Ten or 11 months ago?---Oh, I been asked about - - -

Yes?---Is that what you’re asking me?

When somebody from ICAC, an investigator from ICAC spoke to you aboutthe events of 15 July, 2009?---Something like that.

Yes. Was that conversation with the investigator this year?---Could be thisyear.

30So you might have had this discussion with the investigator some time lastyear?---I don’t think so.

Well when do you think you had this conversation with the investigator?---

THE COMMISSIONER: Which one is that?

MR HALE: The first conversation that you had with the investigator?---Idon’t know. Could have been in January or I’m not quite sure.

40You’re not sure. There was nothing particularly unusual about that night on15 July, 2009 was there?---First time in my life I book room for someoneand put someone in room.

That was the only aspect that was unusual?---And what this meeting was.

Sorry?---All night was a bit different.



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 319TE11/0446 (HALE)/(WATSON)

Because of the girls that were there?---Yes.

But I think you’ve told us the girls had been at the table with you before?---Yes, but not in the same way.

THE COMMISSIONER: Not in the same?---I says not in the same waythey been.

Not in the same way.10

MR HALE: Thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hudson.

MR HUDSON: No, Commissioner.

THE COMMISSIONER: I take it there’s no one else who wishes to cross-examine.

MR WATSON: Mr Kaminic - - -?---Yes.20

- - - you said that sometime you have been told by Lucky Gattellari that thegirl in the room had been organised for Ian Macdonald?---Yes.

When did Gattellari tell you that?---He told me before this event is going tobe hard to say, you know, girls organise for Mr Macdonald and to attend the- - -

When you say before the event do you mean before - - -?---Oh, one or twoeven maybe before, I cannot remember, the same day at least.30

A day or two before or the same day at least Lucky Gattellari told you - - -?---Yep.

- - - that a girl and a room were being organised for Ian Macdonald. Is thatright?---Oh, to organise girl for and I didn’t know exact details, am I going

to put girl in the room or not. I been told this night.

THE COMMISSIONER: Did he tell you for whom?---Yes, he did.40

MR WATSON: For Ian Macdonald?---Yes.

Commissioner, I think in light of that evidence I would accept that anyonewho wished to question further should be given the opportunity.




29/11/2011 KAMINIC 320TE11/0446 (HALE)

MR HALE: You can remember a few moments ago I asked you what it wasMr Gattellari said to you about giving the key to someone?---He told me togive key to Mr Medich.

Yes. And then you, in answer to I think Mr Watson’s questions, you saidthat you thought that the key was ultimately to go to Mr Macdonald?---I wastold before.

Well, I asked you, can you remember, what it was that Mr Gattellari said,and I think you said you couldn’t understand the question. Do you10remember that?---(NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

MR WATSON: I think he said, Commissioner, that he couldn’t understandMr Hale’s question.

MR HALE: Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR WATSON: Yes.20

MR HALE: That’s what I was intending to convey.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I understood that.

MR HALE: Can you remember that?---(NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

Can you remember that?---Can you repeat the question, please.

Yes. You remember earlier you told the Commission that it was your30understanding that, it was your understanding that the key would ultimatelygo to Mr Macdonald. Do you remember, do you remember giving thatevidence earlier?---Through Mr Medich.

And can you remember, and, and you said that you understood that fromsomething that was said by Mr Gattellari?---Yes.

And I asked you what did Mr Gattellari say. Do you remember me askingyou that question?---Yes, I do.

40And you said you didn’t understand my question. Can you remember that?---Yes, I do.

What is so difficult about that question that I asked you?---I didn’t knowwhat to answer, whole story or just exact words.



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 321TE11/0446 (HALE)

So what, when you, you were told about the, at what time were you, wereyou asked by Mr Gattellari to take this young lady to the Four SeasonsHotel?---I been asked after some time we were sitting there this evening.

Sometime during the course of the evening. Is that right?---Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that the first time you were asked or not thefirst time?---I been asked to take her in there but like he already told me thisnight I have to take girl.

10When did he tell you that?---I believe during the day.

MR HALE: And when, when, when you were at the table that night you tellthe Commission that Mr Gattellari told you that he wanted you to take thelady to the hotel. Is that right?---Correct.

What did he say?---To book the room in the Four Season Hotel and take thegirl and leave her over there.

And what time of the evening was that?---7.00, 8.00.20

About 7.00 or 8.00?---Something like that, I’m not quite sure.

You’re not, you’re not certain. And where were you sitting at the table?---You mean in Tuscany?

Yes?---We were sitting on a (not transcribable) which is (not transcribable)entering the car park and over there’s a row of the seats, we were sittingover there.

30Were you sitting next to Mr Gattellari?---I believe across.

Across?---The same table but I know he was sitting over there, I wasopposite side.

And do you say that, and at some time during the course of the evening,

what, did he lean over to you across the table and say that you would like,he would like you to take the girl to the Four Seasons Hotel?---Yeah, he did.

And did he hand over cash across the table?---No.40

When did he give you the cash?---I can’t remember did we get, you know,inside or he give me probably under the table, but not over the table toeveryone see.

Well, can you remember him giving cash to you by pushing it under thetable or is that just a guess on your part?---What I say, I can’t remember

exactly was it here or, was it A or B (not transcribable)



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 322TE11/0446 (HALE)

Well, he might have taken you outside, is that what you say?---That’s what Isay, he may give me under the table or take me on the side, a few metres(not transcribable).

You have no recollection, no distinct recollection, of how he gave the cashto you, to you, do you?---What do you mean how?

Well, you don’t know whether he gave it to you under the table or whetherhe took you outside and gave you the cash, you just don’t remember the10circumstances in which he gave you the cash?---To me is not important. Hegave me a hundred times cash and - - -

Yes. Well, he gave you cash hundreds of times but when he gave you cashhundreds of times he always had an explanation for why he was giving you

the money?---That’s correct.

He would give you the money and tell you to do something?---Yes.

And you say, do you say on this occasion he handed over the cash and said20to you take this girl to the Four Seasons Hotel and book a room?---(nottranscribable) tell me that.

Yes. And did he have - and he, and he told you what to do at the time hegave you the cash?---Yes.

And you can’t remember exactly what he said, can you?---Well, I say I canremember roughly but not every word.

No, and you can’t remember where you were?---Not really but I says was30told me a few times at least this day.

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---What I say is I been told atleast one more time this day what to do and then - - -

MR HALE: Well, so you, you were - do you say that at an earlier time in

the day you were told by Mr Gattellari to take a particular girl to the hoteland book a room?---Yes.

Do - and where, when, when did that take place?---Some time during the40daytime.

Well, were you with him, Mr Gattellari at the time?---Of course.

So it was some time during the course of the day you had this conversationwith Mr Gattellari?---Yes.



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 323TE11/0446 (HALE)

And he said later this evening I want you to take a girl and book her in at theFour Seasons Hotel?---Something like that.

Yeah. Did he say which the girl, who the girl was?---No one knows that.

No.

THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---No one knows each girl isgoing to be.

10At what stage was that? When he first spoke to you?---Yeah.

MR HALE: And what were you doing at the time when he had thisconversation?---Probably sitting or driving maybe.

You have no recollection of what you were doing at the time?---Not really.

You see, I suggest to you that the only occasion that he asked you to takethe girl into the Four Seasons was when you were at the table or at the timehe gave you the cash?---I didn’t understand you, can you repeat again?20

Yes, I’ll say it again. The first time Mr Gattellari asked you to take the girlwas at the time he handed over the cash to you.

THE COMMISSIONER: That’s a question?---I can’t remember was it. Ibelieve he gave me in the night-time.

MR HALE: And what I’m suggesting to you the first occasion that heasked you to take the girl was the time when he handed over the cash to you,that’s right, isn’t it?---To, to say, when he asked me to take specific girl,30yes.

Yeah. I suggest to you you had no earlier conversations about taking a girlto the hotel and the first occasion was the occasion that he gave you thecash?---Oh, and during the daytime I’ve been told girl is going to come andbe taken in the room but not hundred, no specific like in the evening take

this girl and Four Season and do this and that. That’s the first time when Igot specific.

Yes. Can you - and when you, when the, the cash was handed over did40Mr Medich simply say to you I want you to take this girl - I’m sorry. DidMr - I’ll start again. When Mr Gattellari handed you the cash and asked youto take the girl to the Four Seasons, is that all he said?---He told me take thegirl in the Four Season and book the room and leave her over there. Andleave her in the room and Ron is going to come to give him a key.

Yes. And that’s what you can remember him saying?---Well, I say I can’t

remember exact words but that was, was what happened.



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 324TE11/0446 (HALE)

And you can’t remember what he said in this conversation that you say youhad with him earlier in the day about taking the girl can you? You can’tremember what words he used.

THE COMMISSIONER: He can’t remember the exact words.

MR HALE: Exactly?---I says exact word, but is spend all day every daytogether, and I cannot recall every moment of my life or with time spentwith Lucky Gattellari, I can’t remember.10

See what I suggest to you that Mr Gattellari did not mention the, the keywas for Mr Macdonald at the time he handed over the cash?---I say Iremember him mention.

Sorry?---I say I remember he mention.

But when did he mention it? At the time he, at the time he handed over thecash?---Yes.

20Well you can remember a few moments ago I think you told theCommission that all you could remember about the conversation was whenhe handed over the cash was that he was asking you to take the girl into theFour Seasons Hotel, book a room and hand over the key to Mr Medich?---Yes.

And that’s all you could remember a few moments ago. Is that right?---(NOAUDIBLE REPLY)

I thought, a few moments a that’s all you could remember of this30conversation wasn’t it?---I don’t say specific because I cannot remember,but what I says to you is all was about and I can’t recall (not transcribable)or less.

See how many, how many times have you had meetings with investigatorsof ICAC?---Two times.

Three times?---Two times.

Two times. And you were told that they were investigating something to do40with Mr Macdonald. Isn’t that right?---Can you repeat question, please?

Yes. During the course of those two meetings you were told by the ICACofficers that they were, amongst other things, were investigating certainmatters about Mr Macdonald?---As I understand you’re saying I told themto investigate.

But you understood - - -



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 325TE11/0446 (HALE)/(TERRACINI)

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry Mr Hale, I don’t think he’s understood thequestion.

MR HALE: No, I’ll put it another way. You, you were asked to come inand meet with investigators twice. Is that correct?---(NO AUDIBLEREPLY)

And of course you wanted to know why you were being asked to meet withthese investigators didn’t you?---Yes.10

And you were told by the investigators that, amongst other things, they wereinquiring into certain matters about Mr Macdonald?---Yes.

And you had known during the course of these investigations that it was, the

investigation was about Mr Macdonald?---Yes.

And don’t you think the fact that you have been told by investigators onmore than one occasion that the inquiry was about Mr Macdonald mighthave caused you to be mistaken in thinking Mr Gattellari said to you20something about Mr Macdonald?---Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I have to say Mr Hale, I’m not convincedthat the witness understood that.

MR HALE: I thought you might, I think - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: I’m just telling you (not transcribable)

MR HALE: Yes.30

THE COMMISSIONER: Feel free to proceed but I really don’t think heunderstood that.

MR HALE: You have no clear recollection today whether Mr Gattellariever mentioned Mr Macdonald do you?---Yes, I do, but what I say I don’t

hear if he says in the moment that he give me money, a minute before or aminute after or an hour before.

Thank you.40

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini, do you wan to take this - - -

MR TERRACINI: Yes, I just want to clarify one thing. Mr Kaminic, that’sa Serbian name, I think isn’t it?---I’m not Serbian.

Yes, I know but it’s a Serbian name isn’t it?---No, it’s not Serbian name.



29/11/2011 KAMINIC 326TE11/0446 (TERRACINI)/(WATSON)

Do you speak Serbian?---No. I don’t speak Serbian.

What’s your first language?---Bosnian.

All right. Okay. Can I just clarify this, when you communicate withGattellari, do you communicate in English?---Yes, I do.

All right. He doesn’t speak any Bosnian or Serbian?---No.

To your knowledge anyway?---No.10

All right.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Any further questions from anyone? MrWatson, do you have any questions?

MR WATSON: Mr Kaminic, how long, roughly speaking, did it take todrive from The Tuscany Restaurant to the Four Seasons Hotel?---Maybe 20minutes or so.

20Thank you. That’s the re-examination, Commissioner.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Kaminic, thank you for your evidence.You’re excused?---Thank you very much.

THE WITNESS EXCUSED [10:54am]

MR HUDSON: Commissioner, may I be excused?30

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, certainly.

MR HUDSON: Thank you.

MR WATSON: Commissioner, may I call Lucky Gattellari.

THE COMMISSIONER: Is Mr Gattellari represented?

MR WATSON: No. We’ve spoken to lawyers who previously represented40Mr Gattellari and told them that it’s on but, we’ve spoken to Mr Gattellariand he said that he’s quite happy to proceed in the absence of lawyers.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, you’re not legally represented heretoday?

MR GATTELLARI: No, I’m not.



29/11/2011 327TE11/0446

THE COMMISSIONER: Are you happy to proceed without legalrepresentation?

MR GATTELLARI: Yes, I am.

THE COMMISSIONER: I think I’ve explained this to you on anotheroccasion, but I am able to make an order to the effect that the evidence yougive today and any documents you produce may not be used against you incriminal or civil or disciplinary proceedings. Do you remember that?

10MR GATTELLARI: Yes, I do.

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you wish me to make the same order?

MR GATTELLARI: Not if it stands, stands the same, it’s okay.

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I must make it again if you want it. Yes.

MR GATTELLARI: Okay.20

THE COMMISSIONER: Pursuant to section 38 of the IndependentCommission Against Corruption Act, I declare that all answers given by MrGattellari and all documents produced by him during the course of hisevidence at this public inquiry are to be regarded as having been given orproduced on objection and accordingly there is no need for the witness tomake objection in respect of any particular answer given or documentproduced.

PURSUANT TO SECTION 38 OF THE INDEPENDENT30COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION ACT, I DECLARE THAT

ALL ANSWERS GIVEN BY MR GATTELLARI AND ALL

DOCUMENTS PRODUCED BY HIM DURING THE COURSE OF

HIS EVIDENCE AT THIS PUBLIC INQUIRY ARE TO BE

REGARDED AS HAVING BEEN GIVEN OR PRODUCED ON

OBJECTION AND ACCORDINGLY THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE

WITNESS TO MAKE OBJECTION IN RESPECT OF ANYPARTICULAR ANSWER GIVEN OR DOCUMENT PRODUCED.

40THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, I have previously explained to youand I will explain to you again that while that order gives you the protectionthat I have described, it does not give you protection against any evidencethat you give that is not truthful.

MR GATTELLARI: I understand.



29/11/2011 328TE11/0446

THE COMMISSIONER: And that you may be prosecuted should you giveevidence that is not truthful.

MR GATTELLARI: I understand.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Very well. Do you wish to give yourevidence under oath or do you wish to affirm the truth of your evidence?

MR GATTELLARI: Whichever way.10


MR GATTELLARI: That would be fine, yes.




29/11/2011 GATTELLARI 329TE11/0446 (WATSON)

<LUCKY GATTELLARI, sworn [10.57am]


MR WATSON: Are you known as Lucky Gattellari?---Yes, I am.

I think you may have been named Fortunato Gattellari?---That was the nameI, I had when I was little, yeah, it was changed to Lucky when I first arrivedhere.10

If you go way back into your youth, you believe you probably met RonMedich when you were only a schoolboy?---Yeah. There was a familyconnection with the Medichs' and, and my family so we, although we werenever friends at that time, did have occasion to meet, yes.

But many many years later, and I’m talking about 2006 or 2007, Mr Medichcame back into your life?---He did.

And you met with him, you were in effect one of his tenants in a property?20---Yes. I rented a commercial premises from his, yes.

And from discussions which you had with him in that capacity, arelationship grew?---It did. We became very close and spent a lot of timetogether.

I’ll come back to that. Do you remember a gentleman, Frank Moio?---I do.

And were you introduced to Frank Moio by Ron Medich?---No. Frank Moio has been known to my family and myself for many years. I became30reacquainted with Mr Moio when I first started working with Ron inLeichhardt.

And so you would see Moio at The Tuscany Restaurant?---Correct.

And would you go to that restaurant after you became close to Mr Medich

most days?---We were there quite regularly, yes.

Mr Medich was the developer of a project called the Norton Street Plaza?---He actually owned the Norton Street Plaza where The Tuscany40Restaurant was housed and his office was upstairs, so we spent quite a bit of time in that restaurant.

Well, his meaning Mr Medich’s office was upstairs?---Above, yes, abovethe restaurant.

And then on the ground level was The Tuscany Restaurant itself?---Correct.




And you would go there most days, would you, for lunch?---Pretty much.

And then occasionally for dinner as well?---Quite regularly.

Were you introduced to Ian Macdonald?---I don’t believe I was everofficially introduced to Ian Macdonald, no. I did see Mr Macdonald comein on occasion but I wasn’t ever introduced to him.

And would you see Mr Moio talk to Mr Macdonald?---Yes.10

And would you see Mr Medich talk to Mr Macdonald?---Yes.

And did you see Mr Macdonald dining with Mr Medich?---I did.

Once or more than once?---It was more than once.

There was a business in which you were involved called IC Light and therewere aspects of that which branched out into other areas of electrical supplywork, is that so?---That is right.

20Did you become interested in pursuing an interest in a company calledRivercorp Pty Limited?---Yes.

And do you remember when this was?---Date-wise I don’t, it was probably -I was arrested in 2010 so it would have been some, it some time early, late2008, early 2009.

You were introduced to it weren’t you by a man named Dennis Wilson?---Correct.

30And he introduced you to Tony Rowe?---I met Tony Rowe and SeanBrosnan who were the proprietors of Rivercorp on that occasion, yes.

And at that time was Mr Medich involved in the interests which you werefollowing up?---Mr Medich was not actually directly involved in, inacquiring the companies, he was the, he financed most of the acquisitions.

Well, when you went to Rowe and Brosnan you went to them to offer themfinance did you?---They were in need of urgent funds for certain reasonsand we - Ron Medich made the money available for us to lend it to them.40

Well, you would have had the upfront discussions with Brosnan and Rowe,would you?---Correct.

Now, at the time were you in a position to offer them the finance theyneeded?---Only after they, they explained to me what they wanted and Iwent back and explained it to Ron and he agreed that we should give them

the money.




And, Mr Gattellari, I don’t want to be too personal about it, but were youpersonally in a financial position to be advancing - - -?---No.

- - - well, what literally became millions of dollars?---No, I wasn’t.

Were you a man of substantial means at that time?---I was just - no, Iwasn’t.

So you spoke to Mr Medich and finance was made available?---Correct.10

Over a period of time did your role in what might be called the Rivercorpinterests become more intense?---Yes.

Did you get involved in the management of it?---Not so much as the

everyday running of the company, I employed different people to do certainmanagement roles in the company but I took an overall view of thecompany.

Do you remember that a man named Kim Shipley became involved?---Yes,20he did.

How did he become involved?---Well, he, he virtually put together theprogramme that we wanted to achieve and he was appointed CEO of thegroup of companies that we put together.

Well, were you dealing with Shipley on a more or less daily basis?---Justabout every day, yes.

And this is in 2008 is it?---2008/2009, yeah.30

Mr Medich, was he still providing the funds?---Yes, he was.

Were you reporting to him?---I was.

And we’ve heard this discussion that you would be at the Tuscany

Restaurant nearly every working day, would you see Mr Medich nearlyevery working day?---Yes.

Were you effectively working out of the offices at Leichhardt?---My main40office was in Chipping Norton but when Ron Medich moved from theoffices he had in the Tuscany building down to the new offices a little bitfurther down Norton Street, I acquired one of the offices and did some of my work over there as well.

And so decisions which were being made in relation to Rivercorp and itsrelated businesses, you were relaying these to Mr Medich?---Myself and

Kim Shipley kept Mr Medich well-informed on everything that took place.




I’m just going to ask you now, there’s a suggestion that Mr Medich mightgive evidence that he never had anything to do with the ownership or withthe management of those electrical companies. Do you agree with that?

---I agree that he had nothing to do with the management of them. I don’tagree that he didn’t have any ownership of them because for quite sometime before the trouble seemed to start in other areas Ron Medich owned allthe companies.

Well, you’ll need to explain a bit of that background I’m sorry. What10trouble in what areas?---Well, after the, after the Michael McGurk murderthere was upheaval everywhere and all over the place and Ron was gettingan awful lot of flack from his wife and it became obvious that he wanted todistance himself from all that was going on so the decision was made thatall - - -

When you say obvious did he tell you that?---Yes.

All right?---Yes. The decision was made that he would transfer all thecompanies in the group to a company called RIV Developments which I20was the sole director of so at that stage he did that but he still took fixed andfloating charges and securities over all the companies at that time.

So although the companies might have for a while looked as though theywere under your ownership, did you ever have true ownership of thecompanies?---No.

Did you ever have the kind of money which would have permitted youpersonally to have acquired the ownership of these businesses?---No, Ididn’t.30

They were substantial businesses, I think Rivercorp at one stage had 300employees of its own or within its group?---Correct.

Did you have the means to - - -?---No I did not.

So when it looked as though through RIV Developments, at least on paperthat you were the own, do you tell the Commissioner that you were not theowner?---I was the owner on paper, but as I said Mr Medich had so manycharges and securities over the companies that, you know, I didn’t have40much control over them.

THE COMMISSIONER: What I don’t understand Mr Gattellari, andperhaps you can explain, is that you said that Mr Medich, well I think youagreed that Mr Medich was not involved in the management of the, of thecompanies in the group?---Correct.




But you also said that you and Mr Shipley reported to him and I’mparaphrasing now, virtually on a daily basis as to the important things thatwere going on. Is that right or have I got it wrong?--- I wouldn’t say, Iwouldn’t say on a daily basis, but Mr Shipley would give Ron and his

accountants written documents relating to all the operations of the company.

What did you do as regards to reporting?---My conversations with Ron werebasically on a friendly basis, it was never really a business meeting or abusiness discussion as such.

10So are you saying you never formally reported to Mr Medich what wasgoing on?---No. Mr Medich would say, is everything all right? And Iwould say, according to Kim, everything is fine, so I’m assuming that thingsare good. And that’s about as far as the conversations with Ron went.

So the impression I’m now getting is that you really did not ever reportmatters of detail concerning the companies to Mr Medich?---Personally, no.

MR WATSON: Were you the detail man?---I was, I was probably the guythat kept the whole operation running together.20

Was Shipley more in the nature of a detail man?---Shipley did all the, the,ticked the T’s and dotted the I’s. He did all the due diligence on thecompanies before we acquired them. He, he did tall the financial side of things. He basically did all the running of it.

And if there were strategic decisions to be made, high level managementdecisions, would they have to be run past Mr Medich for his approval?---Yes.

30So it would be wrong to say that you weren’t reporting to him or that he hadno role in management matters, it’s more that he did it at a very high levelIs that it?---Well he never had daily, daily management problems. Hedidn’t, he didn’t decide what job would be done today or what, what jobwe’re going to attend to. But if we needed to invest more money orrequired more funds to acquire another company, it would always be

discussed with Ron. He would consider it and then he would make hisdecision.

And he had the right of veto?---Sorry?40

He had the right of veto?---Yes.

He had the final say?---Absolutely.

He’d say yes or no and you would do it?---Yes.




And if he directed you that the company had to do something, would youobey his direction?---Every time.

And was that common that he would involve himself of this kind of high

level management decision making?---No, not really. No, just on certainmatters, his main decision was if we required extra funds for certainacquisitions or expansions, if we were to approach him for the extra fundsand he would want to know the full details.

THE COMMISSIONER: Can you give us examples of this?---Well if we10were tendering for a large job and we need funds upfront to fund thematerials it required, we may have needed two, three, four hundredthousand dollars, we would approach him for those funds.

Are you able to today to identify any such deals - - -?---Oh - - -

- - - where he, he was asked for his views and for the money?---Not in, notin detail, no.

Well can you give us any name?---Well we ordered, at one stage we ordered20about $1.2 million worth of light fittings from China and we required asubstantial deposit upfront to acquire these ‘cause they were going to a largemanufacturing construction in Melbourne. And he supplied the funds forthe deposit on the lights.

After discussion or - - -?---After discussion with Kim Shipley and myself.

All right.

MR WATSON: Now do you remember some financial arrangement which30was entered into with Frank Moio?---Yes.

And how did that come about?---Frank Moio made certain statements aboutbeing able to acquire large contracts from different high-ranking officials inbig companies and he virtually convinced Ron, Ron Medich and myself thathe could do this and we employed him.

When you say you employed him, well, first if I go back. I take it theserepresentations are made by Mr Moio not once but over several occasions?---Mr Moio always made it know to everybody that he had many40connections in the building industry and he could be a big help for acquiringcontracts.

And so he said this to you not once, but more than once?---Yes.

All the time, by the sounds of it?---He kept saying it.




Mr Gattellari, as a result of that, in conversation with Medich did youdiscuss putting Moio on a regular payment?---Yes.

And this was a conversation you had with Mr Medich?---Correct.

And who made the decision whether to go ahead or not?---Well, I think itwas just generally agreed, I don’t think there’s anyone made a strictdecision, we both agreed that we would give it a go.

Well, let’s put it this way. Was it your money to give away?---No, it10wasn’t.

And so who had to give the go-ahead of Moio was to go on the payroll?---Well, if Ron said no, it wouldn’t happen.

And between the two of you, you discussed it and agreed that Ron would goon the payroll. Is that so?---That Frank- - -

Sorry?---Yes.20

Frank would go on the payroll?---Yes.

And did you enter into a kind of agreement, some kind of written agreementwith Mr Moio reflecting those arrangements?---Yes, we did.

Well, could the witness be shown page 495. If you’re shown the foot of it Ithink you’ll see that there’s a signature. Is that yours?---Oh, sorry.

Can you see on the screen?---Yes, it is.30

And is that Mr Moio’s?---Yes, it is.

And did you cause this document to be typed up?---Mr Moio actually gaveme a version of the document that he wanted signed, which I didn’t agreewith, and then we had one done in his behalf.

Who’s we?---I had it done through the office.

Right. So you got it retyped?---Yes.40

And so this was put to Mr Moio and he signed it?---Yes.

And it seems to suggest that Moio was going to be paid $3,000 per week.Do you see that?---Yes.

And it goes on to qualify that by saying, “In whatever way requested byFrank.” Do you see that?---Yep.




Did Frank request that the money be paid to him a particular way?---Yes, hedid.

What did Mr Moio say?---Mr Moio wanted part of the money paid as a

wage to his son-in-law where tax would be taken out and the balance of thefunds would be paid to him in cash weekly.

And did you do that?---I did.

We’ve had some evidence from Mr Shipley who suggests that he was told at10some stage or another by both you and Mr Medich that Moio’s son-in-lawwas to go on the payroll?---Correct.

Did you tell Shipley something along those lines?---I told Kim that, as Isaid, part, part of the money would be paid to his son-in-law and that would

go on the books and the balance would be off the record and paid to Frank Moio.

In respect of the first part which was on the books, we’ve got evidence thatMr Pizzati, the son-in-law of Mr Moio, was paid a sum slightly in excess of 20$1,500 per week netted tax, week in week out for some long period of time?---Correct.

Is that the payment to which you refer?---That sounds like it, yes.

Did Mr Pizzati ever do so much as one minute’s work for any of theRivercorp companies?---No, he didn’t.

And in respect of the other payments which were to be made to Moio, wereany such payments made?---Yes.30

By whom?---By me.

To whom?---To Frank Moio.

How?---In cash.

In envelopes or how was it passed over?---In an envelope he would get thebalance of the money, whatever it was, two thousand, three thousand,whatever it was a week, he would get it in an envelope when I attended the40restaurant.

And did you ever discuss these payments being made to the son-in-law,Pizzati, with Medich?---I did.

Did Medich talk about them?---Ah- - -




Did he approve them, for example?---Well, he didn’t say, yes, that’s good,or no, that’s bad, he just, I just explained Frank Moio’s getting his money.

And did you report to Medich on the cash payments which were being given

- - -?---Yes.

- - -directly to Moio?---Yes.

Who was giving you the money which was being paid as cash to Moio?---The money would sometimes come from cash that I was holding on10behalf of Ron myself or it would come from one of the companies. KimShipley would cash a cheque and hand me the funds.

Commissioner, I tender the agreement made on 9 February, 2009, betweenMr Gattellari and Mr Moio.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Exhibit 15 is the agreement between MrGattellari and Mr Moio of 9 February, 2009.

20#EXHIBIT 15 - AGREEMENT BETWEEN MR GATTELLARI & MR

MOIO DATED 9 FEBRUARY 2009

MR WATSON: Well, we’ve got payments made to Pizzati and paymentsmade to Moio. Did Moio tell you what it was he was going to do for thismoney?---Yes.

What did he tell you?---Frank Moio was very very up front at saying that hewould be able to acquire large, large electrical contracts from many different30major companies.

Wasn’t, sorry, I withdraw that. Did he ever mention politicians?---Not tome.

Did he ever mention Ian Macdonald?---I was present on many occasions

when Ian Macdonald was discussed between Frank Moio and Ron Medich.

Were you involved in those discussions or can you now recall anything thatyou overheard the two of them saying?---I was not involved in any way that40I had any say what would or wouldn’t happen, I was just there at the timethe conversation took place. And I was there at the time the conversationtook place to organise this dinner for the meeting with some high-rankingofficials from Country Energy.

I notice the time, Commissioner.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, we’ll adjourn for 15 minutes.




SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.16am]


MR WATSON: Thank you. Mr Gattellari, we have some evidence thatthere was a meeting between Ron Medich, Ian Macdonald and a gentlemannamed George Maltabarow, who was the Managing Director of 10EnergyAustralia. Mr Gattellari, do you know of that meeting or anythingabout it?---I do not.

If I was to tell you that this was a meeting which occurred on 1 June, 2009at The Tuscany Restaurant, does that help you at all?---No, I still, I don’t

know anything about that meeting.

Well we’ve got a little bit of evidence that Mr Maltabarow was seated at atable with Mr Macdonald. Mr Medich approached with another man whohad a full head of hair, that’s as much evidence, description we have about20him, it wasn’t you I take it?---It wasn’t me.

Did you ever hear from Mr Medich about a meeting that he had with a - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry Mr Watson, Mr Terracini - - -

MR TERRACINI: Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - this evidence may be of importance to youand you weren’t here. I want to tell you what it is. I think just to summarise30it, Mr Gattellari says he does not know of a meeting involving Mr Medich,Mr Macdonald and Mr Maltabarow.

MR TERRACINI: Thank you, Commissioner.

MR WATSON: Were you ever told anything by Mr Medich of a meeting

that he had with a man named Maltabarow or a man who came fromEnergyAustralia?---Not to my recollection, no.

None of this rings a bell with you?---No, it doesn’t.40

Then we’ll move on. I now want to ask you about an event whichculminated on 15 July, 2009, and I suspect the first thing you’re going tosay is you’re no good with dates?---Correct.

But it’s a night which culminated with a girl named Tiffanie going to theFour Seasons Hotel. Does that help you?---I remember the night, yes.




Now there was a build up to that night. Is that so?---Yes, there was.

And what I would like is if the witness could be shown page 733. Whatyou’ve got on the screen there with you Mr Gattellari - - -?---Yes.

- - - is, is a record we’ve been able to collect, I want you to assume for themoment that it’s a fair record of telephone calls from or between key playerson dates close to 15 July, 2009. Will you just assume that for the purpose of my questions?---I accept that, yes.

10Well what we can see is that there were some calls made just before lunchon Sunday, 12 July, 2009, Moio to Kaminic, then Gattellari to Moio. You’llsee that second call occurred at 12.44pm on that Sunday?---Yes.

Now Mr Gattellari, I don’t suppose you recall what the purpose was of

calling Mr Moio on that date?---Not the exact purpose, but it would havebeen in relation to the deal that was going, being organised with CountryEnergy.

Well if we go on you’ll see more detail, there’s a call by Mr Medich then to20Mr Moio and by Mr Macdonald to Mr Moio, all these occurring pretty closein time. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.

Mr Medich to you and then there’s Mr Medich to a person only named asFemale 1. Now I want you to assume that we have some records whichidentify females with Asian names and we’ve at the moment kept themanonymous by giving them merely the title Female and a number. Do yousee that?---Yes, I do.

Now you’ll see that there’s a call by you at 2.42pm to Mr Kaminic?---Yes.30

And then there’s a string of calls, Gattellari to Female 2, Gattellari toFemale 3. Just show the next page, Gattellari to Female 4 and Female 1 andFemale 5 and Female 1 again. And you’ll see that they’re mainly occurringin the afternoon and early evening of Sunday, 12 July?---Yes.

Now seeing that record, does that help your recollection at all as to why youwere making these calls?---Yes, I - - -

Just assume I’m right that these are Asian females?---They are. Correct.40Look the calls were being made in relation to putting together a selection of different young ladies to appear at The Tuscany Restaurant on a particularnight when the dinner was being taking place.

Right. Now why were you organising it? Had somebody asked you to dothat?---I was asked to do that by Ron Medich.

Did Ron Medich telephone you to ask you this or did you seek - - -?---It’s




quite possible that Ron and I discussed the, the female situation even beforethe phone calls were made, once we knew that the dinner was going to takeplace. The phone call I think were just to confirm or keep up to date aswhat was happening.

Well you’ll see that on 12 July there was a call by Mr Medich to you and at12.51pm. Do you see that? It’s on, do you see that now, 12.51?---Yes, yes.

And it’s soon after that that the calls to the ladies commence?---I think thecall was probably to acknowledge that the dinner was going to take place10and that I should line up the ladies.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, I get the impression, and pleasecorrect me if I’m wrong, that you can’t specifically recollect these calls, butyou are working out from looking at this schedule what must have

happened. Is that right?---That is correct. I spent, I spent so many phonecalls with Ron day after day, you know, I’d receive or make and discussmatters with Ron on the telephone numbers of times during the day.

I understand?---I’m just putting it together as to how it fits in. That would20be what we were discussing.

THE COMMISSIONER: I just want to get clarity on that?---Yep. Sure.

MR WATSON: Well, I think you do have a general recollection howeverof organising young females for the night at The Tuscany Restaurant?---Yes, I do.

And there seemed to be more than one girl. Why did you need more thanone girl?---My instructions were to have a selection of girls so that the30person that they wanted to be entertained would have a selection, a choiceas to who he wanted.

Now, who gave you that instruction?---Ron Medich.

And did he tell you who the person was who wanted- - -?---Yes, he did.

Who was it?---Ian Macdonald.

He told you that you were to put together a collection of females so that40Macdonald could take his pick amongst them?---Correct.

And you did just that?---I did.

You telephoned them and you asked them to be there at the restaurant thatnight?---I telephoned them and told them to look as glamorous as they couldand to appear that night at the restaurant, yes.




We’ve got some evidence that one of the young ladies was known by thename, Tiffanie. Do you remember Tiffanie?---Not, not specifically but I do,I do remember the name, yes.

And we’ve got some evidence that Tiffanie said that you in fact asked her,that is you asked Tiffanie, to ring one of Tiffanie’s friends, Cindy, and bringher along. Do you remember something along those lines?---Yes, I do.

Did you know before the night of 15 July that executives of Country Energywere going to be at The Tuscany Restaurant?---Yes, I did.10

And who told you that?---I was told that by Ron Medich, that he’dorganised for some high officials from Country Energy to attend a dinner atTuscany so that himself and Kim Shipley could discuss possible contractsthat would be obtained.

Did you make contact with Kim Shipley?---I spoke to Kim Shipley anumber of times, yes.

In respect of this particular even on 15 July?---Correct, yes.20

If you, if the witness is shown page 735, and if I draw your attention to acall that we have on 15 July, 2009 at 3.58pm. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.

We’ve got some evidence from Mr Shipley that you rang him. He, he hadalready gone home, but you rang him on the afternoon of 15 July. That’swhat he told us?---Ah hmm.

Does that accord with your recollection?---It could be.30

And, and all this time you knew that the Country Energy people were goingto be there?---And so did Kim Shipley.

And what did Medich tell you as to the purpose, why he’d put them there atthe restaurant on that night?---Specifically to, for us to tender or to putforward our proposal that we needed some large electrical contracts and

they could be of some help.

Commissioner, I tender pages 733 through to 735. They’ve been telephonecalls. If needs be, I can call some evidence to prove how those records are40compiled. If the others wish that document to be marked pending thesupply of that evidence I’m happy for it to be marked.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, is there, is there any objection to- - -

MR HALE: I, I, my part, I don’t object.

MR TERRACINI: Nor do I.




THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. The schedule of telephone calls,pages 733 to 735 is Exhibit 16.

#EXHIBIT 16 - SCHEDULE OF TELEPHONE CALLS FOR MAIN

EVENTS IN JULY 2009

MR WATSON: Well, you organised the young women to be there?---Yes.10

And did they turn up?---Yes, they did.

Do you remember this evening being at The Tuscany Restaurant?---I do.

And where were you seated, or were you dining there that night?---Yes, Iwas, myself and Senad Kaminic was with me. We sat at the table with thegirls, which was probably, I don’t know, from here to the next table downaway from where Ron Medich was having dinner with the guests.

20Five metres or so?---Yep.

And so at your table, who was at it? You said Kaminic and yourself. Whoapart from that? Senad, myself, I think Cindy was there, Kathy, Jessie, mayI refer to my book?

Your book?---My little diary.

You’ve got a diary entry of this have you?---I’ve just got the names of whowere there that night.30

Well - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that a contemporaneous diary or is it a note thatyou’re just making now, have made recently?---No, this was a note I, I justticked off the names that were going to be there that I made when I knew

this was going to take place.

MR WATSON: You knew what going to take place, the meeting withCountry Energy?---No, no, no. When I, I’ve been asked this question many40times, who were the girls that were there.

Yes?---So I went through in my diary and looked at the names and thought,and worked out who actually were there that night.

I see. So it’s something that you have reconstructed by you’ve used primaryrecords?---It’s a diary that’s been there, I’ve had it all the time, it’s - - -




Well, you’re looking at me as though I should know that and you’reprobably right but I don’t. But tell us who were the girls that were there thatnight?---Oh, there was Annie, Cindy, Cathy and Tiffanie.

THE COMMISSIONER: I think you’d better show Mr Watson the diary.

MR WATSON: They’re the girls. Apart from yourself and Kaminic - - -?---Correct.

- - - were there any other males at the table?---No.10

Do you remember whether Medich was at your table at any time during thenight?---No, Ron came over for a short time, just had a couple of wordswith me just saying is everything okay and the girls know what they’ve gotto do, I said yes, everything’s fine, no worries, let me know what you want

to do.

During the night did you see where Shipley was seated?---I don’t knowexactly where he was seated, I think Kim had his back to me, he was sittingin one of the positions there with the two Country Energy people, Frank 20Moio, Mr Macdonald and Ron Medich.

In any event, you saw Medich sitting at the table with Macdonald?---Yes.

And you saw the people who - you wouldn’t have known them but youunderstood - - -?---Yes.

- - - were Country Energy - - -?---Yes.

- - - executives. Later during the evening was something communicated to30you about the girls?---Ron Medich came to my table and said that he’dmade his choice and he pointed to Tiffanie.

I take it (not transcribable) doesn’t come over with a megaphone but whathappens? Does Mr Medich whisper in your ear or - - -?---He just came overand quietly said to me that he’s, he’s made his choice.

Who, who was he?---Well, he said he but I knew he was referring to IanMacdonald.

40How did you know that? From earlier conversations?---We’d had thisdiscussion a number of times in regards to what the girls were for.

And so he said that he had made his choice?---Correct.

Did he indicate to you who the choice was?---He pointed to Tiffanie - - -

Yes?--- - - - and said that, to take care of the rest of the arrangements.




And so having identified Tiffanie what did you then do?---I had a chat toSenad, explained to him what he had to do.

What did you say to Senad?---I said to Senad that he’s got to take Tiffanieto the Four Seasons, go in and book a room, take Tiffanie up, give her oneof the keys, wait downstairs with the second key and give the second key toIan Macdonald when he arrives.

And did you then see Senad leave the table?---Not instantly but a little time,10some time after that, yes, he left the table with Tiffanie and went off.

Did you have a word with Tiffanie at all before she left?---Yes, I said toTiffanie that he’s very important to us and he should be looked after the bestshe could.

Did you say anything to her about money?---Money wasn’t discussed withTiffanie, no.

And so at some stage Tiffanie and Kaminic depart?---Correct.20

You remained at the Tuscany?---I did.

At some time did you see Macdonald depart?---I don’t remember exactlywhen he departed, I don’t, I don’t remember the, I didn’t see him depart norwho he departed with, no.

Right. You left yourself and you went somewhere?---Yes. Myself, KimShipley and the balance of the girls all went back to Ron Medich’s house.

30Now, after the event did you make contact with Tiffanie to pay her orsomething along those lines?---I spoke to Tiffanie after the event, yes.

And how did you do that? Face to face or by phone?---Look, I spoke to heron the phone I think.

And did you somehow or another make a payment to her?---Yes. I’m notsure whether I gave her the money direct or whether I gave it to Cindy togive to her.

40And do you remember how much money was involved?---I don’t.

They’re the questions I have for Mr Gattellari.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Hale?

THE WITNESS: Can I have my diary back?



29/11/2011 GATTELLARI 345TE11/0446 (HALE)

MR WATSON: Yes. Other people may wish to look at it, I’m not sure.

MR HALE: Mr Gattellari, my name’s Hale and I appear for Mr Macdonald.Mr Gattellari, you don’t put yourself forward as an honest man, do you?---I

don’t understand the question.

What about that question don’t you understand? I’m asking you do you putyourself forward as an honest man?---Yes, I do.

Yes. Let’s just explore that for a moment. You are a person who will do10almost anything to advance what you consider to be in your best interests.Would you agree with that?---Anything within reason.

And does conspiring to murder somebody come within within reason?

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I won’t allow that.

MR HALE: All right.

THE COMMISSIONER: I don’t see what that has to do with this inquiry.20You can canvass his credibility, his honesty, but I’m not going to allow that.

MR HALE: That’s going to put us at a great disadvantage.

THE COMMISSIONER: Why is that Mr Hale?

MR HALE: Well I don’t want to say, I don’t know much latitude - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: I don’t understand. I said you could canvass hiscredibility.30

MR HALE: Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: That’s an issue. Whether Mr Gattellari is guiltyof some other offence with which this Commission is not investigating isnot a relevant matter.

MR HALE: Well on one view that somebody, he is so unscrupulous toinvolve himself with that which I understand he has admitted. He is maybeso unscrupulous as to tell lies for the purpose of advancing (not40transcribable)

THE COMMISSIONER: I will not allow any questions of Mr Medichwhen he gives evidence in relation to his criminal offence. And I will notallow any questions relating to Mr Gattellari concerning his criminal,concerning the charge made against him of murder and related charges.That’s my ruling.




MR HALE: Will Commissioner, you permit me to ask questions as to thecircumstances in which he made contact with ICAC?


MR HALE: You, when did you first have contact with ICAC?---Theyapproached me.

And you were in prison at the time?---I was.10

Did you ever let it be known to, did you cause, could I suggest to you thatyou had made allegations about Mr Macdonald when you were in prison?---I made no allegations about anybody. I merely explained what a certainamount of money meant in the diary that I had.

Could I just ask this question and please don’t immediately answer itbecause I want to see whether I can, whether it conflicts with theCommissioner’s ruling. What I wish to suggest to you that you have madethese allegations in support of what you think may assist you in anysentence that you may receive in the trial that’s forthcoming?20

THE COMMISSIONER: I’ll allow that, yes.

THE WITNESS: As I explained to you before I made no allegations againstanybody. I never brought Mr Macdonald up in my discussions. I wasapproached after I made my statements by ICAC asking me questions aboutcertain comments that were made in my statement and they brought up theallegation, not me.

MR HALE: How many statements have you, how many times have you30met with ICAC Commissioners?---Oh, , or, .

THE COMMISSIONER: And I think you should, Mr Hale - - -

MR HALE: I’m sorry, no, I withdraw that question, yes. No, I understandwhy you’re concerned. Can I put this another way. Should I understand

your answer to be that you have met with ICAC investigators , or,times?---Correct.

Yes. And has there also been a private inquiry before this Commission40which you have attended before the Commissioner?---Do you mean here?

Yes?---Yes.

And in those , or, meetings with investigators can you, can yourecall when the , one was?---No, I can’t.




Can you remember how long it took? Over what period the interview took place?---I think, actually I think the , time I met with ICAC was when Iwas being interviewed by the police at the Crime Commission building. Ithink they came in and spoke to me for 20 minutes, half an hour, just off - -

-

That was the , one. When was the ,one?---I don’t know.

Can you remember how long it was?---Not exactly, no.10

What about the ,one?---No, I don’t.

You can’t remember how long that was?---No.

Can you remember the, remember the names of anybody who was present

on that occasion?---Well the only one I remember is Wayne Smith.

What about the fourth one, can you remember the ,one?---(NOAUDIBLE REPLY)

20When was that?---I have no idea.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale, I’m very uneasy about this questioningbecause it doesn’t necessarily follow that those meetings had anything to dowith this inquiry.

MR HALE: Well I can’t, you’ll agree Commissioner (not transcribable)that I do not have.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. And it is, I do not intend to say anything30more about that, but in fairness to you, you should not draw - - -

MR HALE: Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - any inference as to what I’m going to findbecause he had , meetings with inspectors, because I know and you do

not know what those meetings were about.

MR HALE: Well could I just continue - - -40

THE COMMISSIONER: But let us put it this way, at least , andprobably at least ,were about this matter. But it doesn’t necessarilyfollow that others were.

MR HALE: So I still might just pursue that, the final, you cannot rememberwhen the , meeting took place?---I don’t remember the dates any of themeetings place nor how long they took.




Now what I wish to suggest to you Mr Gattellari, was that it was onlyshortly before the meeting of 15 July that you understood that MrMacdonald was to dine with certain people from, from Country Energy thatday, that day?---Some time before that day, yeah.

Well it was actually on that day wasn’t it?---No, it wasn’t on that day at all.

And wasn’t it the case that as soon as you found out about it you contactedMr Shipley?---No. I contacted Mr Shipley because we had assumed at thetime that he may not be needed and after discussions with Ron Medich we10decided that it’d be a good idea if Kim Shipley did attend the dinner andthat’s why I rang Mr Shipley.

And who was it that told you that somebody from Country Energy wasattending?---Ron Medich.

And when do you say he told you that?---The discussion took place on daysbefore the meeting.

And did he say that he had been told this by Frank Moio?---He told me that20Frank Moio had organised with Ian Macdonald to arrange for some peoplefrom Country Energy to attend for a dinner at The Tuscany where contractswould be discussed.

And you say do you that you were first told about this Country Energymeeting some time on Sunday, 12 July - - -?---That’s not what I said.

THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, I’m sorry to interrupt. I’m making asuppression order about the references I made to the number of times thatthe private, that the ICAC investigators met with Mr Gattellari. There30should be no publication of that material and no person should say anythingto anyone else about that information that I was forced to give to Mr Hale.

SUPPRESSION ORDER ABOUT THE REFERENCES I MADE TO

THE NUMBER OF TIMES THAT THE ICAC INVESTIGATORS

MET WITH MR GATTELLARI

MR HALE: I do apologise if it caused some difficulty.40

THE COMMISSIONER: No, it’s not your fault, Mr Hale.

MR HALE: Do you say that you first learnt about the Country Energymeeting on Sunday, 12 July?---No, I don’t.




Well when do you say you first heard about it?---I said we discussed it daysbefore that day. It was on that Sunday that I rang around to organise thegirls.

And you rang Cindy did you?---I didn’t ring Cindy, no.

Did you, did you ring Tiffanie?---I spoke to Tiffanie, yes.

And when do you say you rang Tiffanie, on the Sunday?---It would havebeen on the Sunday I imagine, yes.10

Now, the diary that you’ve just referred to and produced, is it the case thatdo you say that at none of the meetings that you have had with ICACofficers you - sorry, I’ll start again. Do you say that at the meetings with theICAC officers you did not provide or refer to that diary?---I did not.

Now, on the, on July 15, that is the night of the dinner what, what timeduring the night do you say that Mr Medich came over to you and said thatMr Macdonald had made his choice?---Some time between 6.00pm and 9.30or 9 o’clock PM. I have no idea what time it was.20

So you have, you have, so you have absolutely no idea whether it was6 o’clock at night or 9.00, 9.30pm do you say?---It was not the mostdevastating point in my life where I took a look at my watch and decided Ishould remember what time Ron’s approached me to give me thisinformation.

You see, might I suggest to you that the reason you just don’t recall the timeis because the conversation simply did not happen?---You may suggest itbut it’s not true.30

Now, during the course - can you recall what time it was that Mr Macdonaldleft the restaurant that night?---No, I can’t.

Can you recall the time at which these people from Country Energy left therestaurant?---I cannot.

Can you recall what time Mr Macdonald arrived at the restaurant?---No, Ican’t.

40Can you recall what time the people from Country Energy arrived at therestaurant?---I cannot.

Can you recall what time Mr Medich went over to their table?---All I cantell you is that all these things took place between 6.00pm and some timeduring the evening. I did not keep track of every moment, of every actionthat took place that night on my watch.




So is this the case: that you were organising for the purpose of Mr Macdonald a series of girls, brought them to the restaurant in order thatMr Macdonald might take his pick yet you have absolutely no idea of whenanybody arrived that time?---Times are not - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: That’s not what he said. He said they arrived at6 o’clock and went, and then at some time from that point onwards. He didnot say that he had no idea.

MR HALE: You had no idea between the period of time of 6 o'clock in the10evening and about 9.30, you had absolutely no idea of what happened?---Idid not take specific view or time records of what happened and when ithappened.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, are you able to say, give estimates

of how long afterwards or are you, are you not?---Commissioner - - -

Would you be guessing?--- - - - about Mr Medich, Mr Medich would havecome to my table possibly after about an hour and a half that they weresitting at the table having dinner, he would have come over and had a chat20to me, but as I said, I did not look at the watch or I just wasn’t aware of it.

I understand that, I’m - - -?---And then, and then it was some time after thatI asked Senad to take the young lady to the Four Seasons. I cannotremember the exact times.

No. But I’m asking you whether you can give approximate estimates?---Yeah, about an hour and a half after they started their dinner Mr Medichcame to me and, and told me which, which Mr Macdonald had chosen.

30MR HALE: Do you recall it - you recall it to be about an hour and a half after - - -?---About, about an hour and a half.

And not so long ago you said - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: After they started the dinner.

MR HALE: After they started the dinner, and just a few moments ago yousaid you had no idea of what time between about 6.00 and 9.30?---Imentioned it - - -40

THE COMMISSIONER: (not transcribable) about the exact time, Mr Hale.

MR HALE: Well, that perhaps is a matter I’ll (not transcribable)

THE COMMISSIONER: And it’s no good frowning at me, that’s myruling.




MR HALE: Oh, no, no, I’m not - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: I’m talking to your junior.

MR HALE: I’m not, I don’t think I was frowning.

THE COMMISSIONER: No, you were not.

MR HALE: No.10

THE COMMISSIONER: Someone else was.

MR HALE: You see, what I suggest to you is that you have, you often have- you are often accompanied by numbers of Asian girls, aren’t you?---Onlyif there’s a specific reason for it.

And it’s not unusual for you to be dining at the Tuscany Restaurant with anumber of Asian girls?---No, it’s not.

Now, what I suggest to you is that at some stage during the night20Mr Medich said to you that Mr Macdonald wanted a massage at the FourSeasons Hotel?---You may say it but it’s not true.

You say Mr Medich never said anything like that?---Never mentionedmassage, no.

And what I suggest to you is that you then made the arrangements to haveTiffanie brought to the Four Seasons Hotel because Mr Medich hadmentioned the name of that hotel?---Definitely not.

30And what I suggest to you, that it was your plan that evening to putMr Macdonald in a compromising position in order that you might takeadvantage of it at some later stage?---Absolutely not.

And you are, are you not, involved in prostitution?---I am not.

Did you - were you looking during the course of the evening, were youlooking over at the table where Mr Macdonald was?---I glanced at it a fewtimes.

40Well, were you observing it? Watching what was going on?---No, I wasn’t.

You understood this meeting with Country Energy was to be to theadvantage of your company?---I did.

And nonetheless you didn’t, you only looked over from time to time, youdidn’t seek to observe what was taking place?---Well, looking at the table



29/11/2011 GATTELLARI 352TE11/0446 (HALE)/(TERRACINI)

wasn’t going to give me any more information or anything that I could useso why would I bother?

And the table at which you were seated was near the street, near Norton

Street?---About the middle of the restaurant.

Well, the, the - if I might put it, the western end of the table, the table wasrunning at right angles to the, to Norton Street?---Well, oh, you’ve got methinking now, it’s been a long time since I’ve been there but we were aboutthe middle of the restaurant and Norton Street would have been maybe 10,1015 metres to the left of where we were sitting and Ron Medich’s table wascloser to the bar.

Well, it was a table near the bar but behind what was a large pillar?---Part of the table was, yes.

And your table was close to the, the extremity of the restaurant?---My tablewas in full view of where Mr Macdonald was sitting for the purpose that hecould take his, make his choice.

20THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini.

MR TERRACINI: Thank you.

You’re in custody at the moment, don’t tell us where but you’re incustody?---Yes, I am.

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, excuse me. Mr Terracini representsMr Medich?---Yes.

30MR TERRACINI: Thank you, Commissioner.

You’re in custody at the moment?---I am.

And you’re awaiting sentence which will be some considerable time fromtoday?---I have no idea when but I am awaiting sentence.

And you know what a letter of comfort is, don’t you?---I do.

And you’ve been told, I’d suggest to you, that you’ll receive a letter - - -40

THE COMMISSIONER: Have you any instructions about this,Mr Terracini?

MR TERRACINI: (not transcribable)

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, on what basis do you put this?



29/11/2011 GATTELLARI 353TE11/0446 (TERRACINI)

MR TERRACINI: That he will receive a letter of comfort for providingassistance (not transcribable)

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you can put to him that he hopes that.

MR TERRACINI: You hope to receive a letter of, of comfort.

THE COMMISSIONER: I can tell you now that nothing has been promisedto Mr Gattellari if that’s what you’re trying to find out.

10MR TERRACINI: It’s not about what the Commission’s going to promisehim.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you’ve asked him that.

MR TERRACINI: He would have been told by the officer in charge of hiscase, not the Commission (not transcribable).

THE COMMISSIONER: You may ask that question.20

MR TERRACINI: Yes. And you hope to receive a reduction in yoursentence as a result of you helping in a general sense investigative bodies orgovernment departments associated with the pursuit of (not transcribable)?---I was told not to have too much hope about what letters of comfort mean,not to give too much credence to them.

But you certainly had a conversation with senior police about that?---Inregards to my other matter, yes, not in regards to this matter.

How was it then, because we have to be somewhat precise, we know you30made statement to the ICAC, put them to one side, when you were askedquestions by Mr Hale about how you came to provide information to theICAC, were you talking about there was information in one of your policestatements that they’d become aware of or what?---There was informationin one of my diaries.

All right. Well, do we take it that that’s plural, there’s more than one diarythat you have?---Yes, yes, there is.

Have you ever produced any of these diaries to anyone for inspection that40might be a police officer or someone assisting the Commission?---Thepolice have all my diaries.

What about the Commission though, have you ever produced these diariesto the Commission?---Not personally, no.

All right. Well, in the diary that you have on your person now, in addition

to the names of these women in it, does it have other information associated




with events and times and dates of for instance meetings with Mr Medich orpoliticians or things like that?---No, because this is this year’s diary and I’vebeen in gaol all this year.

All right. Well, you’ve said categorically that you’re not involved inprostitution?---No, I’m not.

Did the young women that you apparently provided on occasion for others,did they get paid?---They did.

10And did they get paid by you?---Sometimes.

And so far as you were concerned, did you keep any records of yourpayments?---No.

Do you know a woman by the name of Helen who assisted you in engagingTiffanie?---I know Helen, yes.

All right. Well, does she run some kind of agency or how did you get ontoher?---Helen ran a massage parlour that I used to attend and I became20friends with her.

All right. Well, in terms of your relationship with Mr Moio, can you justhave a look at Exhibit 15, please. It will be a photocopy of this document.

THE COMMISSIONER: Can we bring that up, please.

MR TERRACINI: Now, there are two signatures on the document, you’dagree with that?---Yes.

30Above the typewritten words, Lucky Gattellari, there’s a signature. Is thatyour signature?---Yes, it is.

And above the typed words, Frank Moio, to your knowledge is that MrMoio’s signature?---To my knowledge it is, yes.

And that’s the extent of the signatures?---Yes.

Did you draft this agreement yourself?---As I said, this was a portion of adraft copy that Mr Moio presented to us to sign which we disagreed, took 40portions of it, put it on a sheet of paper, this one, and had that signed, yes.

Well, when you use the word we, you’re the only one that signed (nottranscribable)?---Yes, I’m the only one who signed it.

Did you look at the document carefully to see what was required in terms of what he was being paid for?---Yes.




It seems on its face to be quite a significant sum of money, doesn’t it, perweek, for basically just doing some introductions?---No. Mr Moio was todo more than just introductions. Mr Moio virtually verbally, to Mr Medichmainly, guaranteed huge contracts from different building companies.

Can you tell us any contract that he did obtain for Mr Medich?---None.

Did Mr Medich sign this document?---No, he did not.

All right. Have you got any emails, documents, anything in writing10indicating that Mr Medich authorised you to take part in this agreement withMr Moio?---Not specifically with Mr Moio, but I do have a lettersomewhere on record somewhere where he does authorise me to deal on hisbehalf.

No. Anything to do with Mr Moio?---No.

And we can safely assume that these conversations that you claim that youhad with Mr Medich about arranging for young women to be at therestaurant and things of that kind and Mr Macdonald making a choice,20there’s no record of all that, it’s just your word?---No written record, no.

Just your word?---Mine and others.

Well, can you tell us then who was present that overheard Mr Medichsaying that Mr Macdonald had made his choice, or words like that?---No.

Anybody present when Mr Medich allegedly asked you to arrange for yourwomen to be there on the night?---I think Mr Kaminic might have been30there that time.

How certain are you of that?---Sorry?

How certain are you of that?---Well, considering Mr Kaminic spent, waswith me just about all the time, I’m quite, quite comfortable he might have

been there.

All right. Well, I want you to assume that he’s given evidence here today,have you got any specific memory of Mr Kaminic being present?---No, I40don’t.

Now, you would agree that if anybody was going to pay Cindy for, I’msorry, Tiffanie, if Tiffanie was to be paid by anyone for attending the FourSeasons Hotel, it would have been you?---Not always.




No, on this occasion, on this night, the only one that she would look to forpayment was from you. Correct?---She would have held me responsible forthe payment, yes.

Yes. And did you provide a sum of money to Mr Kaminic to pay for theaccommodation?---I did.

And do you recall that it was round about $400 in cash?---I don’t rememberexactly but I think it might have been $400, yes.

10And did you in fact give him the money?---Yes, I did.

THE COMMISSIONER: Give who?

MR TERRACINI: Give Kaminic the money?---Yes, I did.

And did you require of him some kind of accounting back to you as towhether that was enough or it had fallen short or anything like that for theaccommodation?---No. I’m quite sure that Senad would have told me if itwas short.20

Right.

THE COMMISSIONER: Where did the money come from?---Out of mypocket. It would have been money, company money that, as I said, we helda fair sum of cash at any one time in my safe at work.

When you say company money, what company?---The RIV Group.

MR TERRACINI: Which company of the RIV Group?---I couldn’t tell30you.

You’d agree with us, you just don’t go and take money out of thecompany’s funds without at least knowing where it’s from?---I would,sorry?

You just don’t take money, cash money out of a safe and not then account tothe appropriate corporate structure, do you?---Well, I didn’t have to accountto an appropriate corporate structure ‘cause the person that owned thecompanies and funded the companies knew all about it.40

Did he?---Yes.

All right. Well, can you recall telling him that this accommodation costs$400?---I didn’t have to.

When did you cease to be a director of Rivercorp?---I was never a director

of Rivercorp.




THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, Mr Terracini. I just want to clarifysomething. When you say he knew all about it, what did you mean, aboutwhat?---He knew that I was paying the girl to go out there that night for Mr

Macdonald.

How did he know that?---He organised it, he asked me to arrange the girls togo there that night so he knew exactly what was going, I mean- - -

How did he know, what I’m trying to find out, Mr Gattellari, is just one10thing. I’m sure on your, the basis of your evidence you would know the girlhad to be paid?---Yes.

You’ve been asked questions about whose money it was that you used topay. I’m trying to find out whether you are saying Mr Medich knew that

you were using company money or whether he did not?---He did know thatI was using company money, yes.

How did he know that?---Well, ‘cause I also used , , , ,, , , , , , , , , ,. It was commonly20known that I used company money to pay for any of the girls that were usedfor any of the directors that wanted to have a night out.

MR TERRACINI: I object, Commissioner.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right. Well, that wasn’t responsive andit will be struck out. So there will be a suppression order on that answer.

SUPPRESSION ORDER IN RELATION TO PREVIOUS ANSWER30

MR TERRACINI: Now, do the other girls, that is, Cindy- - -

THE COMMISSIONER: I’m sorry, Mr Terracini. Part of that answer isresponsive. The part that’s responsive is, and I can’t remember the exact

words, but it’s to the effect of that Mr Medich knew that it was, thatcompany money would be used to pay for the room.

MR TERRACINI: Yeah, that is responsive. The remainder about the use40of, is not.

THE COMMISSIONER: So can we, can we agree that that part remains?

MR TERRACINI: Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: The rest is struck out.




MR TERRACINI: Yes.


MR TERRACINI: Look, the four girls that you arranged for the night, canyou tell us whether any of them was not fluent in English but capableenough to understand basic conversations in English?---I think all four of them were good, pretty good at English.

All four?---I believe so.10

Have you had conversations with them in English?---Yes.

And I assume that you don’t speak Mandarin?---I’ve got the odd word that Iuse occasionally.

But other than- - -?---I don’t speak fluent Mandarin, no.

And your telephone conversations to engage their services are in English?---They are.20

They appear to understand what you’re saying?---They don’t appear tounderstand, they do understand.

Yeah.

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you know the woman called Cindy?---I do.

Do you speak to her in English?---Yes.30

MR TERRACINI: And she responds in English?---Yes.

Now, to your observation was there alcohol consumed at the table that theCountry Energy people were on and Mr Macdonald was on?---I believethere was, yes.

And was there some arrangement so far as you were aware as to how first of all Tiffanie would get to the Four Seasons Hotel?---Yes, there was anarrangement.

40And you arranged that with your driver?---I did.

You arranged for whatever payment was to be given to Tiffanie?---No.

But there was the expectation that she’d be paid by you?---Not on the night.




No, but the expectation would be that you would pay her?---I’m answeringthat I didn’t give him any money to pay Tiffanie because she wouldn’t beexpecting to be paid on the night.

Yes, but by you?---Yes, by me.

All right. So who then, if you’re aware of it, who was to get Mr Macdonaldto the hotel?---I believe that Mr Medich was going to get Mr Macdonald tothe hotel.

10And how did you become aware of that?---Oh, it was just something thatwas arranged. I didn’t become aware of it, it wasn’t something thathappened on the spur of the moment.

Well, see, it just doesn’t come to you from the ether or from, did you know

that there was an arrangement that Mr Medich would take Mr Macdonald tothe hotel?---No, I did not.

Right. And did you know that there was going to be a get-together or ameeting at Mr Medich’s home later that evening?20

THE COMMISSIONER: At what point did he know that.

MR TERRACINI: Yeah. At, did, first of all, did you know at all that therewas going to be a meeting back at Mr Medich’s place later that evening?---It was arranged earlier that at the end of the night after Mr Macdonald leftthat everyone would be sober, we’d all go back to Ron’s and have a fewdrinks.

Right. And did you do that?---We did.30

And did you speak to Mr Kaminic there at Point Piper?---About what?

About anything?---Yeah, we spoke.

And did you ask him how, everything go all right, words like that?---I think

I may have asked him whether he gave the key to Mr Macdonald andeverything was okay and he said everything’s fine.

And did he say to you that he’d seen Mr Medich there?---No, he didn’t.40

Well, you, you’d been told no doubt that he was to transport Tiffanie to theFour Seasons in her motor vehicle. Does that agree with your memory?---In whose motor vehicle?

Her motor vehicle?---No, that’s not the way I remember it.

Well, how was Mr Kaminic to get to the hotel?---He used my car.




Your car?---I think so.

How did he get from the Four Seasons to Point Piper?---I think he came

back to the, to the restaurant and picked me up. I’m not sure, to be honestwith you.

So he went back to Leichhardt and then drove you?---I think so.

Okay. What sort of vehicle did he have, was it distinctive for instance?10---Oh, it’s a blue Volkswagen Touareg.

All right. So quite a, like a four-wheel drive-style vehicle?---Yes, yes.

All right. Well, it may be more difficult to remember whether he came back

to Leichhardt or not to pick you up but did you drive yourself? That mayassist your memory?---I don’t think I did.

Well, how did you leave, did you go with him after you finished socialisingat- - -?---We all, we all left, we all left Ron’s place, well, Senad and I left20Ron’s place in my car and Mr, I think Mr Shipley left in his car.

Well, what about Mr Kaminic?---He came with me.

With you?

THE COMMISSIONER: That’s what he said.

MR TERRACINI: Mmm. All right. Well, have you got any memory thenof what hour we’re talking of when you eventually get to Point Piper?30

THE COMMISSIONER: When you arrive at Point Piper?---Oh, pretty lateat night, sometime before midnight I think it was.

MR TERRACINI: Well, you saw Mr Medich there?---Mr Medich arrived abit later, yes.

And did you say, well, look, did everything go all right with the governmentminister, or words like that?---No, I didn’t say did it go all right with thegovernment minister, I said, “Everything’s fine.” And he said, “Let’s go40down and have a drink.” He arrived after we did. In fact we waited outsidehis place ‘cause we couldn’t get in through the, through the gate so we hadto wait for him to arrive to let us in.

And did he arrive with anyone?---No. Ah, no.




Okay. Well, what I’m directing your memory to, is was there anyconversation of any kind about what had taken place or what you hadexpected to take place at the hotel with Mr Macdonald and Tiffanie?---Not on that night at his house, no, there were other things that were more

pressing.

See, what I suggest to you is that at no time was Mr Medich involved in thearranging of your girls for the services of anyone?---You may suggest it, butit’s not correct.

10And the only person that confirms otherwise, yourself. And he was notinvolved in, in arranging the premises and he didn’t have anything to dowith arranging the premises, did he?

THE COMMISSIONER: The premises?

THE WITNESS: You’re incorrect.

MR TERRACINI: All right.20

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, the premises, can you just clarify that?

MR TERRACINI: The, the Four Seasons premises.

THE COMMISSIONER: Did you understand that?---I did.

MR TERRACINI: Do the women that work for you or with you, you candescribe it in your own words if you wish, but do they actually do massagesas well as engage in what could be described in anybody’s language assexual behaviour?---Some of them are a good masseuse, some of them30aren’t.

All right. But they do do that sort of thing, do they?---Occasionally.

THE COMMISSIONER: Some of them or all of them?---Not all of them,no.

MR TERRACINI: And they’re not qualified osteopaths or masseuse or, ordon’t have any formal qualifications?---Not to my knowledge, no.

40But part of this service that you provide can depend upon what the personactually wants?---I don’t quite look at it as providing a service. Now, Istarted to discuss what these girls are all about before you objected. Now,do you want me to go into why we had these girls? I mean it’s up to you.

No. Subject to the Commissioner’s rulings you’ll just have to answer myquestion.




THE COMMISSIONER: That’s your- - -

MR TERRACINI: So far as I’m asking it, do they provide services otherthan what most people, if not all, would describe as sexual services?

---Okay. I’ll answer the question the only way I can. Mr Medich and I atone stage, see, I can’t answer your question then.

I object. (not transcribable) the question.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, just- - -10

MR TERRACINI: I’m asking you about what service they can provide.It’s quite simple.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what services they can provide.

MR TERRACINI: Yes.

THE WITNESS: They can provide whatever service they wish to engagewith the person they’re with.20

MR TERRACINI: Right. Do you, do you ever inquire of them as towhether they can do traditional massages?---No, I don’t.

All right. Do you ever ask them what qualifications other than plainlyhaving sex with people that they have?---The only qualifications these girlsneeded were to be very attractive, speak some English and very friendly.

Right. Now, have you ever provided- - -30

THE COMMISSIONER: Could I, sorry, Mr Terracini, there is a questionthat I propose to ask but I will ask you before I ask it, so that if you objectyou can tell me. I propose to, to ascertain whether when these girls wereinitially engaged, were they questioned as to whether they would be willing,should they wish to, to provide sex to the people with whom they wereasked to go out.

MR TERRACINI: No, I have no objection to that.

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you hear the question?---Yes, I do.40

What’s the answer?---The answer is, they were asked would they beprepared to do it and in some cases they were not.

MR TERRACINI: Right. And did the fee correspond to perhaps what theywere prepared to do?---Pretty much.




Right. Now, I’ll show that I’m directing my comments to theCommissioner, not Mr Gattellari.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr, sorry Mr Terracini, I don’t mean to interrupt

you but there is another question that I think that is relevant and that iswhether Mr Medich knew these girls and what they provided.

MR TERRACINI: Well we had uncontradicted evidence already, that heknew that of the business - - -

10THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

MR TERRACINI: - - - in a neutral term off Mr Gattellari, but they didn’t,he didn’t know their name and one wasn’t suggested.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well.

MR WATSON: I don’t concede that there’s evidence about that latter.

THE COMMISSIONER: About what, Mr Watson?20

MR WATSON: That Mr Medich didn’t know their name or (nottranscribable) I don’t concede that there’s evidence of that, much lessuncontested evidence of that.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well that wasn’t what I was going to ask anyway.

MR WATSON: No, it’s just this statement was made from the bar table.

MR TERRACINI: Now, Commissioner, so that there’s no issue vis-à-vis30yesterday, I have not heard Mr Watson attempt to get evidence from thewitness concerning the exchange of a large sum of cash. So I assume thatthat’s not going to be any issue in terms of this witness providing the moneyto Shipley, cash.

THE COMMISSIONER: That’s a valid point.

MR TERRACINI: So I don’t propose to pursue it because I have taken thatthere’s not going to be any adverse inference - - -

40THE COMMISSIONER: I don’t think that there was ever any adverseinference because it’s not one of the issues that we’re investigating.

MR TERRACINI: Yes, I know, Commissioner, but it’s these sorts of thingsget - - -




THE COMMISSIONER: But it is relevant in the sense, it is relevant. I cansee a relevance. It is, it is, but it’s a matter for Mr Watson and let MrWatson decide that and we’ll debate it further.

MR TERRACINI: Yes, all right.

MR WATSON: May I say this, I did not call it here, okay, because it wasnot challenged, but I can do it now if Mr Terracini - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: It wasn’t challenged?10

MR WATSON: It wasn’t suggested to Mr Shipley that that evidence wasfalse about receiving the $200,000 and no questions were asked about it.

THE COMMISSIONER: I think it was indirectly challenged.

MR TERRACINI: Yes. My point is we don’t challenge that Gattellari wasin - - -

MR WATSON: Perhaps I should then ask some questions. Perhaps it20would be (not transcribable) if I so now.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini, any objection to that?

MR TERRACINI: No, no, no.

MR WATSON: Mr Gattellari, do you remember an occasion when MrShipley was short of money to meet a payroll?---I remember on many of occasions, but I think the one you’re discussing - - -

30THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I beg your pardon? You remember?---Iremember many of those occasions.

Many of those occasions.

MR WATSON: Well I want to talk about one where there’s a suggestion

that you came with a large sum of money?---I had been with Ron Medichand picked up $200,000 in cash.

First of all did Shipley tell you that there was a need for money?---Actually40it didn’t happen that way. As I was just going to explain, I picked up themoney from Ron Medich and I was on my way home with the money and Icalled in at the Rivercorp offices at Ultimo. Mr Shipley then told me abouthis problem he was having with payroll and I volunteered to advance himsome cash money to make up the payroll.




Why were you carrying $200,000?---On different occasions, manyoccasions I picked up large sums of cash from Mr Medich for different,different requirements he had.

Well why did you pick up this particular sum of money?---There were anumber of jobs that he wanted done that needed to be paid for. And I don’twant to go into specifics of these jobs, there was quite a number of - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: No, no, I don’t want you go into specifics either,but I want to know whether amongst those requirements were matters10relating to the RIV Group of companies?---No.

So what did you use the $200,000 on this occasion?---Well - - -

Or however much it was?---Well I’m trying to explain. There was a, there

was a pretty loose arrangement as far as money went with Ron Medich andthe group of companies. And many different - - -

The RIV Group?---The RIV Group. Many different times money that wassupposed to go for one purpose was changed in direction and went to20another purpose and then made up later when receivables were received. Soit was not uncommon.

Yes. But I still don’t really understand how it came about that you took cash for the RIV Group, RIV Group of companies. Why did you decide to

just take cash to help Mr Shipley?---The cash was, sorry?

To help Mr Shipley, I don’t - - -?---I didn’t take the cash to help Mr Shipley.The cash was to be used for other purposes. When Mr Shipley advised meof the problem he was having, I advanced him some of that cash to make up30the payroll. And it was to be paid back later.

Paid back by whom?---By Kim Shipley. When the receivables arrive - - -

By the company I assume?---By the company, yes.

So it was a loan?---A bridging loan until he got some funds in.

A loan by whom?---Well it was an internal loan between companies.40

So who owned the money?---Ron Medich.

Why do you say that?---Well because I picked up the money from hishouse.

MR WATSON: Did he give it to you?---Yes.




When you went to his house, don’t tell us the particular purpose that youhad in mind but did you say I will need money for that or did he say youwill need money for that?---No. I went there to pick up the money that wasarranged prior.

Right.

THE COMMISSIONER: But this is not, I still don’t understand that.Arranged prior doesn’t mean the money for Shipley, it means for anotherpurpose?---No, arranged for other reasons.10

Yes?---Yeah.

MR WATSON: And there’s some suggestion that it was in a Myershopping bag. Does that ring a bell?---Oh, it would have been a shopping

bag. Whether it was a Myer or Grace Bros, I don’t remember.

But you took the money and you felt that you had authority to apply it to thepayroll of Rivercorp did you?---Yes, I did.

20And who gave you that authority?---Well as I explained on many otheroccasions when I picked up money from Ron Medich for one particularreason, we’d transfer it and use it for something else and there was never aproblem.

Yes, thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, there’s one aspect of this that Ineed to understand, please. When you used money that you say you gotfrom Mr Medich from a safe, the cash, and you used it for various purposes,30I understood you to say that you did not, those purposes did not ever includethe Rivercorp group of companies business other than this one relating tothe request by Mr Shipley for evidence, for assistance. Is that right?---Thatis right. Any money that Mr Medich put into the companies would bedirectly transferred into RIV Developments and then RIV Developmentswould transfer the funds elsewhere. Other matters that I looked after for

Ron Medich, he would pay me in cash. There was no record of it, there wasnever any documentation kept in regards to where the money came from orwhere it went.

40Well what I’m still unsure of is if you were, I understand that you say thatyou were authorised by Mr Medich to spend his money on matters that didnot concern the RIV Group of companies. What made you think that youwere authorised by Mr Medich to take the money that you gave to MrShipley for the purposes of the RIV Group of companies?---Well becausethe jobs that needed to be done, as long as they were done, Mr Medichdidn’t care where the money went. Once the money left his, once he gave m




the money to complete certain jobs for him, as long as the jobs took placeand it happened, he didn’t care what happened to it.

But that still doesn’t explain, I have said to you that I don’t want you to say

what the other jobs were if they didn’t relate to the RIV Group of companies?---Right.

Or any of the issues that we are discussing in this inquiry?---Let me explainit a little bit differently.

10Yes?---I’ve got $200,000 to achieve a goal for Mr Medich.

Yes?---I could afford a bit of time. Mr Shipley required $100,000 orwhatever it was he required, I could afford a bit of time to give him themoney knowing that it would be paid back to me in time to fulfil the other

job that needed to be done, because I still had time to complete.

I see. So really this is something that you decided to do yourself?---Yes.

Mr Terracini.20

MR TERRACINI: And was in October 2008?---I have no idea.

What about, no idea of the year?---I have no idea of the time, I’ve stipulatedon many occasions events that I discuss actually took place, but don’t ask me whether they were in January, February, March or whatever, I don’tremember.

I’m specifically turning your mind on to a date or a day, but you can’t evenremember the year. Is that right?---No, I can’t.30

Well how many times have you given Mr Shipley $150,000 in cash?---Maybe on about two or three occasions.

Well that would be reasonably memorable wouldn’t it?---Not particularly,no.

So around about 150,000 in cash on this occasion - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini, again, how can I put this, this is40ground that you are opening up which is capable of getting rise to answersyou would not want - - -

MR TERRACINI: Oh yes, I’m aware of that, Commissioner. I’m movingon to a specific instance. Did you understand that Mr Shipley told you thatthis amount of money was for the payment of wages?---Yes, I did.




And you’d know from your own experience that naturally enough recordswould have to be kept in relation to the payment of wages, even if it iscash?---Yes.

Well, did he indicate to you how many people were involved or what sort of workers were involved?---We were employing about 350 people, I had noidea which part he was short of.

Well, I want to ask you whether you knew, did he tell you that it had to beused for a specific purpose?---No, he didn’t. He was short for payroll was a10term he would always use, we’re short for payroll and I said well, I can helpyou ‘cause I’ve got some cash which I picked up today but I need it back.

You see, what I’m suggesting to you is that if the payment was made in cashto Mr Shipley that was not authorised by Mr Medich at all?---You may

suggest it - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: Not expressly, not expressly. I mean, best, bestask that if you don’t mind.

20MR TERRACINI: Yes. It was not expressly authorised by Mr Medich, wasit?---Mr Medich never expressly authorised anything. He just, Iautomatically knew that it was right ‘cause that’s the way we operated.

Well, what I suggest to you that this was an example of you in effect beinginvolved in making your own financial decisions to the detriment of Mr Medich, that is taking cash?---The jobs he paid for were done so I don’tthink you’re correct.

You don’t think I’m correct?---I don’t think you are, no.30

Did you ever keep any records of how much cash you gave to Mr Shipley?---There would have been a record of it, yes.

All right. With who?---Well, I think that in some of the documentation thatthe police had there would be some record of cash moneys that I’ve given to

Mr Shipley.

All right. Yes, thank you.40

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any, anybody else wishing to ask questions of Mr Gattellari? Mr Watson?

MR BREWER: I do, I do, Commissioner.



29/11/2011 GATTELLARI 369TE11/0446 (BREWER)

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Brewer acts for Mr Moio, Mr Gattellari. Doyou understand that, Mr Gattellari?---Yes, I do, yes, sorry.

MR BREWER: Mr Gattellari, you’ve given some evidence about the

document which I think is the agreement which you signed and my clientsigned which I think is Exhibit - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: 15.

MR BREWER: 15, thank you. Do you have a copy of that in front of you,10Mr Gattellari?---I do.

All right. And as I understand your evidence you indicated that you’veknown my client for many years but you became reacquainted with himthrough the restaurant?---Correct.

Is that right? Were you referring to the restaurant Tuscany as therestaurant?---Yes, I was.

And that was by virtue of the fact that I think you made clear that your20employer, Mr Medich, had an office upstairs, is that right?---That is correct.

And he was in fact the owner of the building where the restaurant wassituated?---That is correct.

And I take it it was your connection with Mr Moio that led you tocommence to take lunch there fairly regularly, is that right?---No, it wasn’tmy connection with Mr Moio, it was my connection with Mr Medich.

I see. And so you became reacquainted with my client did you by virtue of 30lunching at the restaurant with Mr Medich?---Correct.

And how long after you commenced to take lunch there did my client giveyou, to use your words, a version of the document that ultimately becameExhibit 15?---Oh, it was some time later ‘cause we, when I first startedgoing for lunch there we weren’t involved with Rivercorp or any of the

electrical companies so it was some time later.

I see. And did it become - I’ll withdraw that. The version that you receivedfrom Mr Moio, did you retain a copy of that?---We did but I don’t have it40with me, it was about four or five pages.

I see. Well, where is it?---Oh, the police took documents from three of myoffices, from my house, it would be in one of the multitude of boxes that thepolice have.

I see. And you, you say you condensed four or five pages into the single

page that became Exhibit 15, is that right?---Absolutely.



29/11/2011 GATTELLARI 370TE11/0446 (BREWER)

I see. And where, where is the original of Exhibit 15?---I have no idea. Itwould have been in one of the documents that the police have got.

And you gave some evidence that my client had requested that part of themoney be paid to his son-in-law, is that right?---Yes.

And that the balance would be paid in cash?---That is correct.

All right. And did you keep a record of any cash payments - - -10

THE COMMISSIONER: Again, I am now warning you again, Mr Brewer,if you ask that question you are opening up something that may bedetrimental not only to you but to others so just - I am, other warnings Ihave given have not been heeded, on the first day, which has resulted in

publicity so just be aware and if somebody wants to object to that you areable to do so because I am just telling you that you are opening upsomething you may not like.

MR BREWER: Thank you, Commissioner.20

You see, I want to suggest that you never gave any cash to my client?---And I suggest to you that that’s not right.

Pardon me one moment. Yes, nothing further, thank you, Commissioner.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Watson.

MR WATSON: No, I don’t have any re-examination for Mr Gattellari.30

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you, Mr Gattellari, you are excused?---Thank you.

THE WITNESS EXCUSED [12.46pm]

MR WATSON: I’ve got a witness who I think we can finish beforelunchtime.

40THE COMMISSIONER: Very well.

MR WATSON: Could I say this, Commissioner, things have gone far fasterthan I had anticipated and this is the last witness I’ve scheduled for today.The next witness in order was to be Mr Moio who is to come alongtomorrow morning and I don’t know whether he can be got here at shortnotice.



29/11/2011 371TE11/0446

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, my apologies to everyone if theirtime has been wasted. We’ll call the next witness. Are you saying that this- is there any point in trying to get him over lunch?

MR WATSON: Well, I’ll speak to Mr Brewer about that but the - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, does Mr Brewer know? Mr Brewer?

MR BREWER: Look, I don’t know quite frankly, Commissioner, whetherit will be possible to get him here. We’ve certainly lined him up for10tomorrow in accordance with his summons so - - -

MR WATSON: We’re clearly within schedule, perhaps it might be better tokeep Mr Moio for tomorrow.

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Call the next witness.

MR WATSON: Could I call Vincenzo Pizzati.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, please be seated. Is Mr Pizzati represented?20

MR FUNG: I seek leave to represent Mr Pizzati, my name if Fung, F-U-N-G.


MR FUNG: My name is Fung, F-U-N-G.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Fung.30

MR FUNG: Thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: You have leave. Swear in the interpreter.

<ANGELA ANGELONE, sworn [12.48pm]

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Fung, do you wish me to make a section 38order?40

MR FUNG: I do.

THE COMMISSIONER: Have you explained this to Mr Pizzati?

MR FUNG: I have.



29/11/2011 372TE11/0446

THE COMMISSIONER: Pursuant to section 38 of the IndependentCommission Against Corruption Act, I declare that all answers given byMr Pizzati and all documents produced by him during the course of hisevidence at this public inquiry are to be regarded as having been given or

produced on objection and accordingly there is no need for him to makeobjection in respect of any particular answer given or document produced.

PURSUANT TO SECTION 38 OF THE INDEPENDENT

COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION ACT, I DECLARE THAT10ALL ANSWERS GIVEN BY MR PIZZATI AND ALL DOCUMENTS

PRODUCED BY HIM DURING THE COURSE OF HIS EVIDENCE

AT THIS PUBLIC INQUIRY ARE TO BE REGARDED AS HAVING

BEEN GIVEN OR PRODUCED ON OBJECTION AND

ACCORDINGLY THERE IS NO NEED FOR HIM TO MAKE

OBJECTION IN RESPECT OF ANY PARTICULAR ANSWERGIVEN OR DOCUMENT PRODUCED.

THE COMMISSIONER: Does Mr Pizzati wish to give his evidence under20oath or does he wish to affirm the truth of his evidence?

MR PIZZATI: Under oath.

THE COMMISSIONER: Will you swear him.



29/11/2011 PIZZATI 373TE11/0446 (WATSON) *not through interpreter

<VINCENZO PIZZATI, sworn [12.49pm]

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, before you give your evidence, Mr Pizzati,

I just want to make sure of one thing. Mr Fung has explained to you thatbecause of the order I have made the evidence you give today will generallynot be allowed to be used against you in any criminal or civil proceedings.Do you understand that?---Yes.

This, that order however does not protect you if you don’t tell the truth10because if you don’t tell the truth you may be prosecuted for an offenceunder the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act, and the penaltyfor not telling the truth in a public inquiry is a gaol term of up to five years.Do you understand that?---*Yeah.*

Yes, Mr Watson?

MR WATSON: Is your name Vincenzo Pizzati?---Yes.

Are you the husband of Rosa Moio?---Si.20

Are you the son-in-law of Frank Moio?---Yes.

Did you come to Australia in September 2008?---Yes.

In October 2008, did you secure employment with ZL Group Limited?---Yes.

And were you employed as a construction worker?---Yes.30

And the work which they gave you was five, for five days a week starting at7.00am and finishing at 3.30pm?---Yes.

With occasional overtime?---*Sometimes, yeah.* Sometimes, yeah.

And you’ve worked for ZL Group since October 2008 and until now?

---Not till now.

Not till now. You stopped more recently, did you?---Now I’m working foranother company now.40

All right. Do you remember while you were employed by ZL Group youwere working effectively as a labourer?---Yes.

Earning between $500 per week net to $700 per week net, depending uponovertime?---In the normal wage that a carpenter would get.

THE COMMISSIONER: But is it about that?---Yes.




MR WATSON: Do you remember being introduced to Ron Medich?---Who introduced me to Ron Medich?

Do you remember being introduced to Ron Medich?---Yes.

Were you introduced to Ron Medich at The Tuscany Restaurant inLeichhardt?---Yes.

Were you introduced by your father-in-law, Frank Moio?---Yes.10

When you were introduced to Mr Medich were you in the company of yourwife, Rosa?---Yes.

You speak virtually no English. Is that so?---Yes.

But your wife, Rosa, is fluent in both English and Italian?---Yes.

Mr Medich offered you a job, did he?---My wife explained to me, yes, thathe want to give me a job.20

Mr Medich spoke in English to your wife and she translated it into Italian toyou?---Yes.

In conversation with Mr Medich at The Tuscany he offered you a job?---Yes.

The company with which he offered you the job was called Rivercorp PtyLimited?---Yes.

30And he offered to pay you money?---I don’t understand the question.

He offered to pay you money?---He offered me a job and as a consequence Iwould get paid.

And he did, he began to pay you money?---When I filled in the form to go

work for him I started to receive money.

You filled in some form to apply for a job, did you?---Yes.40

And you provided that to Mr Medich, did you?---Yes.

And you immediately began to receive $1,503.39 per week?---Yes.

After tax?---Yes.

Paid directly into your bank account?---Yes.




Did you ever do even one minute’s work for Rivercorp Pty Limited?---No.

Could the witness be shown pages 501 and following through to 504,starting with 501.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson, I don’t think we’re going to finish at1 o’clock.

MR WATSON: We may be able, if we (not transcribable) before luncheon.10

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it depends on Mr Terracini and Mr Brewer.

MR TERRACINI: I’ll be only about a minute, if that, Commissioner.

MR HALE: I don’t imagine I’ll have any questions.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Brewer?

MR BREWER: I’ll be very short, Commissioner.20

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, we’ll go on till this witness is finished.

MR WATSON: Do you see on the screen in front of you the cover of anotebook which you kept?---Yes.

Could the witness be shown page 502. Do you see there, entries made inyour handwriting about income and expenditure from your bank account?---Yes.

And you’ll see for example on that first page, 11 February, 2009, wages30from Rivercorp?---Yes.

And you’ll see that the sum is $1,503.39?---Yes.

And you continued to receive payments over a long period of time?---Aboutthree or four months.

In total you received payments in the order of $37,000 from Rivercorp?---The total?

40Yes?---Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: The answer’s yes?---Yes. *Yes.*

MR WATSON: Now, could you tell the Commissioner, what is thebusiness of Rivercorp?---It’s an electrical company.

Is it retail or manufacturing?---I don’t know.



29/11/2011 PIZZATI 376TE11/0446 (WATSON)/(TERRACINI)*not through interpreter

Where is its office?---I don’t know.

Does it have an office?---Surely it would have.

Does it have a factory?---Yes, because I had to go work in a factory.

Well you never, where was the factory?---I don’t know.

You receiving this money for nothing weren’t you?---I was receiving themoney because I was supposed to go and work for him. I was waiting for10him to offer me the job and then go work for him.

In fact, Mr Pizzati, you were receiving the money as part payment of abenefit from Mr Medich to your father-in-law, Frank Moio weren’t you?---“No.” No.

I tender the copy of the notebook identified by Mr Pizzati.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Exhibit 17 is extracts from Mr Pizzati’snotebook.20

#EXHIBIT 17 - EXTRACT FROM MR PIZZATI’S DIARY

MR TERRACINI: Can I just clarify one thing, Commissioner. Is that in hisown handwriting or his wife’s handwriting?

MR WATSON: Look at the, look at the screen, that’s your handwritingisn’t it?---Yes.30

Thank you. They’re the questions for Mr Pizzati.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale, you have no questions?

MR HALE: No questions.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini.

MR TERRACINI: Yes, briefly. Sir, were you ever told that your wages40had been stopped?---Did I receive money, did I, was I told that I was gettingpaid, no. Was I getting paid, no. When I met up with Mr Medich with mywife I asked him and I he said there was no longer a need for me to go towork.

MR BREWER: What did you say, I didn’t hear that.



29/11/2011 PIZZATI 377TE11/0446 (TERRACINI) *not through interpreter

THE COMMISSIONER: There was no longer any need for me to go towork.

MR TERRACINI: And do you know a man called Lucky Gattellari?

---Yeah.

Are you sure that it wasn’t Mr Gattellari who told you that you could get a job for a man called Medich rather than - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: Could get a job for?10

MR TERRACINI: For Ron Medich rather than Mr Medich and youmeeting personally?

THE COMMISSIONER: I don’t understand the question Mr Terracini.

THE WITNESS: “No.” No.

MR TERRACINI: What I suggest to you that the offer of a job did notcome from Mr Medich but it came through Lucky Gattellari?---No, it was20Ron Medich that offered me the job. I never spoke to Lucky Gattellariabout that.

What did you think you were getting paid for?---When I put in theapplication form and they started paying me, I thought that was normalbecause I thought I was going to get called to go to work from one day toanother.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well what job were you going to get?---To gowork in the warehouse.30

As what?---Whatever work there was to do because Mr Ron said to me thatwhen they call you someone will show you what to do.

And for that you were going to be paid more than $1,300 a week?---Yes.

MR TERRACINI: It’s the lucky country.

THE COMMISSIONER: Even though you can’t speak English?---(nottranscribable)40

MR TERRACINI: Sir, I’m sorry, Madam Interpreter.

THE COMMISSIONER: It’s all right, the question doesn’t need answering.

MR TERRACINI: It was obvious to you that you were being paid virtuallyto do nothing?---No. I was supposed to go to work.



29/11/2011 PIZZATI 378TE11/0446 (TERRACINI)/(BREWER) *not through interpreter

And I suggest to you that the person who organised the job for you wasGattellari?---No.

Thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Brewer?

MR BREWER: Just one question. Mr Pizzati, I act for your father-in-law,my name is Brewer. Brewer. Mr Pizzati, can you tell us whether youreceived a request from Rivercorp about your shirt size?---Yes. For the10entire uniform, I had a form to fill in regarding the whole uniform for work.

And when did you fill that form in please, Mr Pizzati?---When it came athome and then I sent it off by fax?---All right. And how long - had youstarted receiving money from Rivercorp when that request was given to

you?---Yes.

About how long after you were being paid?---I can’t remember, about amonth, a month and a half or two months, I’m not sure.20

They’re my questions, Commissioner.


MR WATSON: Nothing in re-examination. Might Mr Pizzati be excused?

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Pizzati may be excused. Thank you forinterpreting.

30

THE WITNESS EXCUSED [1.06pm]

THE COMMISSIONER: We’ll adjourn until 10.00am tomorrow morning.

MR WATSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

AT 1.06 PM THE MATTER WAS ADJOURNED ACCORDINGLY40[1.06 pm]

icac 29nov 10am

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