14-56 COTLNOIL.]

ILeoislative Council,Wedoiesday. 26rth October, 1907.

Assent to Bills . .Federation and the State, Joint Select Committee.

extension of time ..........Questiolns: Great Western Railway, Malls and Rates

Tributlog, Royal Conlinission .........Leave of Absence .. . .. ..Bllis: Administration Act Amendment, Sie,, passed

Reclpsucal Enforcement of MaintenanceOrders, SR...............

Permanent Reserv-e (Point Walter), 2R.Perth Hebrew Congregation Lands, 2R,, Corn.

r~eportCriminal Code Amendment, 2R., defeatedLand Tax and Income Tax, Assembly's NmaegState Children Act Amendment., Assembly's

Message

page1456

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1478

Time PRESIDENT took time Chair at 4.80p., and read prayers.

ASSENT TO BILLS.Message from time Governor recived and

read, notifyving assenit to the undermnentionedBills:-

1, Electoral Act Amndment.

2, Fresnautle Lands.3, Offiejal Trustee.

JOINT SELECT (0AMITT EE, FEDERA-T[OV AND THE STATE.

Extension of Tine.

On m~otiont byv Hon. .J. W. Kirwnn, the timecfor bringing UP the report of the Committeewas extenidedl to Wednesdav, 23r-d XNovipiber.

QUESTION- GREAT -WESTERN]RAILWAY.

Mils and Bates.

Hon. E. 11. H.ARRIS asked the Minister-for 'Education:- I, Have any negotiations beenin progress between the S~tate and Common-wealth Govrnnmen ts relative to expeditingthe carriage of overseas snails via the Trans-continental Railway? 2, Is the State Gov-erment or the Commissioner of 'Railway ssnaking the facilitation of overses mails conl-ditional on the increase of freights on theTranscontinental Railway 3, Is time Min-ister aware that Adelaide orders for leer-ehandise to the goldfields have been can-celled, or held up, owing to fear of the an-nouncement of ia revision of the Common-wealth railway tariff, which will inflict fur-ther hardship upon1 tile Eastern G-oldfieds?

The INISTER FOR EDUCATIO'N re-plied- 1, Yes. 2, No. .3, No.

QUESTION-TB IBUTLNG ROYALCOM3MISSIO-N.

Hon. E. H1. HARRIS asked the M1inisterfor Education: Will he lay on the Table ofthe Rouse the report of, and a copy of theevidence taken by, the Royal Commissionappointed to inquire into and report upontributing in the mining industry?

The MINISTER FOR EDU-CATION re-plied; A copy of the report of the RoyalLComimission is herewith. The evidence takenLwas very voluminous, and the expense in-volved in its printing was not considered tohe justified; but the hon. msember may perusethe evidence on *application at the MfinesDepartment:

LEAVE OF ABSENCE.On mnotion by Hon. A. H. Pan ton, leave

of absence for three consecutive sittingsgrauted to the Hon. J. Cunningham (North-East) on the ground of urgent privnte bus-mness.

BILLS (2)-THR1) READING.1, Acninistration Act Amiendmvent.

Passed.2 , Reciprocal Enforcement of MNainten-

anlee Orders.Transmitted to the Legislative As-

seisibly.

BILL-PERMANENT RESERVE (POINTWVALTER).

Second Reading.Debate resumed from the previous day.Hams. F. A. BAGLIN (West) (4.401: This

Bill many appear to lion. miemabers quite harmt-less, hut I fear that, carried in its pres4entforns, unanleeded, it miay have far reachingeffects. I think hon. members will agreewith ale that if there is one tiing which,mnore than another, wvill perpietuate the nens-ory of Lord Forrest, it is his foresight inreserving for thme people of Western Aus-tralia arimple breathing spaces, and makingthe reserves along the river front availableras pleasure resorts. That work hnving beendone, it is our task, I claim, to protect thepeople's rights in that coaIseetiolI. The Billproposes that time "Melville Road Beardh, inwhom the Government have vested the Point'Walter reserve, shall be granlted an area upto omle acre to be leased as a site for a re-freshmuent reual. That is to say, an acre illthe aggregate. Tile road board could, if theBill passedl as printed, lease to one person afull acre of the reserve. The measure doesnot stipulate how far the site shall be fromtime foreshore, and that is a matter in whichI consider we should protect the rights of thepeople. It happens that the particular pieceof ground which the board desire to leaseis ininsediately off tlhe jetty, light osi that

1456

[26 OCTOBER, 1921.]45

portion of the foreshore where holidaymakers land.

Hon' Sir Edward Wittenooni: Has it awater frontage?

Hion. F. A. BAGLIN: Yes; it is banned-inteir' on thle foreshore. There are alreadytwo refreshment -rooms onl the reserve, be-tween J.50 and 200 yards distant fromn thefaresbore, and nowise encroaching on thatportion of thme reserv e which pleasure seek-ers use. I consider the board should nothave the right to lease that portion of thereserve for the purpose of a refreshmentroom, and shult out the people. One of thepersons already established in business there.has expendjed about £3,000 in buildings, andhe offers tie public spacious accommodation.It is unfair comnletition, I contend, that,these people having been compelled to buildwhere they are now established, sonmebodyelse shNould conic in and take absoluntely thepicked position onl thle whole reserve. In anl-other place it was inentioned that the ideawas to erect a lunge building and sell spotluger. It mnay be information to lion, mnem-hers that since the Bill was in another placeone of the existing refreshment roonns atPoint Walter has seured thne sole right tosell spot lager there.

I-0on. .1. Dimifel: Spot lager is pretty' ha"rmy-loss stuff, is it not?

Ren. R. A. BAGLIN: es buit that is nottime point. Tine point is that we should pro-tedt the foreshores on our reserves ini thepeople's behalf. If we do what this Billasks for tine Melville road hoard, other gor-erning bodies will conmc to Parliament forsimnilar concessions, and the eventual resultwill he to deprive the people of the fore-shore largely or entirely. It is mny intentionto move an amndrment in this connectionduring the Comnmittee stage.

Question put and passed.

Bill read a second time.

BTL-PEETH HFEBREW CONGREF-GATI ON LANDS.

Second Reading.

Thle 'MINISTER FOR EDUCATTON (Hon.H. P. Colebatel-East) [4.451 in moving thesecond reading said: The necessity for theBill was brouight under the notice of the Gur-emninent a little time ago, when the PerthRebrew congiregation desired] to sell certain1lands grante(I to tinent for a synagogue atSiibiaco, whim-h were no longer required forthat pirniose. Tine desire wats to sell thoselands andI nifise the mnoney in the erectionof a buliling somewhere else. The coagrega-f ion forwvardled a request that thne same rightmiight be giv *en them to dispose of their landsas is enjoyedl by the Anglican, tine 'RomanCatholic, and other denominational bodies. Isee no reason why they should not have thatright. That is what thne Bill proposes to give-theum, andI no wore. I move-

Thant tine Bill heP now readl a ~~odtime.

Question put and passed.Bill rend a second inse.

In Committee, etc.

Bill passed through Committee without de-bate, reported without amiendmnent, and thereport adopted.

BILL - CRI EN AL CODEA-MENDMENT..Secondl Read ing,

Hon. 1R. G. AEDACIT (North-East) [4.471in moving the secondI reading said: rmitro-duced in anothenr place by the minier for((algoerlie, the Bil1 u-os there agreed to. Itia with tint' vcry best of intentions that I antm~ovinig thme second reading inl this House,For seine timie past thle people on the gzold-fir-]ida hve raisedl,by sai-Ce)s or lotteries, fundsfor thle pucrpose of sending thne children to thle(,oast. This has resulted in immnense beniefitto the health of those children. Also there isthe children' s ward in the Kalgoorlie lies-]pital, which Inns been largely maintainid bythe efforts of the local bodies. I ami crediblyinformed that unless those p~eople are alia-eilto run lotteries for the purpose, both thechildren and the children'a ward w-ill suffer,andl the (Gvernment subsidy will be cut off,as it already has been fi-om the Freqlh AirLeague. lPor many years the Governmentgran11ted a subsidy to the peolhe controllingthat league, huit of late vears, owing to thefinancial position, the Government harve notben ab~le to continue that subsidly. U'nderthe Bill the 'Minister will be able to giantJicrnuissiou to responsible bodies to raise fmudsby iieancs of a lottery, so long as9 those funds~qare intended for a deserving object and notfor private gain. At present an annual sumlof between 1300,000 and £400,000 is sent nutof this State to various lotteries operatingelsewhnere. Tasmkania has gainied a very grcat1k-RI in tis dlirection. Also there is the9 nemnlamid sweep, tickets for which arc soldindisriiminately in this State. If the Bill liepassed n dlouble gool -will result, in thatfids will be fuirnished for the r-hilIreni 'Sward at thle TKalgoorlie hospital and for theFresh Air League, mind at the same time mnuchOf tha)t anual diii UnpOil tile 1pruiVate i-e.somirees of the State will be Saved to thleState. I have received from various people.a niumbr of protests against the Bill. Al-though I have every respect for the pi-otc-st-nag organisatioas, still [ munst emiark that

nonle of them luare anything to offer in placeof what is proposed ini tile Bill. There i' innlaw to lprevent thne opeii sale of sweep tickets,aid in consequence we finid children Loinig(about fronm place to place, hawking ticketsrepresenting chances in art unions and( raffles.To may mind a great deal more harut is, I-eilugdd6he hr that sort of thing than would resultfrom the organised runming by a responsiblebody of a big sw-eep, designedl to promotesomne deserving objer-t. I see less hn~r:n in

1457

1438 COUNCIL.]

the running of a sweept than I do in gamblingin shores irrespective of who miay suffer. inthe past, with tile sanction. of the Minister,sweeps have been run in Kalgoorlie, but thepoint lias now been reac~hed that they musteither stop or be legalised. In another placeone of the Ministers said he desired a widerinterpretation than was afforded- by the Bill.I mnight point out that the amndnient pro-piisd by 31Nr. Lovekin supplies that want.3ly sole desire is to give the energetic peopleonl thle goiddieldls legal authority to continuetheir good work onl behalf of the children.Withoult this authority they do not ;visli toproeet'd, no0twithstandling that, so0 long nutheir actiion be legalised, they are read 'Y andleven eager to continue to raise funds for thepurposes I have enumernted. The U'gly Mren 'aAssociation have raised thousands of poundsand done anl immense amount of goodthroughout the State, aiid I hope that underthe Bill they will be able to continue theirwork. But I ant not whollY in favouir ofstreet canvassing, which throws the onuis ofpaying onl to tlte more generous- anilong thecommtunity. I1 may as wkell intimate tilat ifthe 'Bill passes tile seodreading, f sh1allhe prepared to ac-eeit the amendment ofwhich Mr. Lovekin has givenu notice. 'Billand amiendmient alike have been before item-bers f or two or three w-eka. andi so amipleopp~ortunlity has been niforded for consgidera-tion. Honestly, I an of opinion that thleobjetors to the Bill do not really under-stand it. Certainly they hare- not seen theproposed amendment, or they would be pre-pared to accept it. if only' in the interestsof tile children. At a recent public meet-ing the mayor of Perth had this to saY-

If the Bill goes through, the Govern-ment, who have the idea that they canrunl everything, Will think it neessary tomake a racecourse to provide lotteries,and horses to keep the racecourse going;and then there will be great competitionamong the members of the Governmentas to who will ride in thle GovernmentStakes. One will be mounted onl''Boozer'' and another on '"Gambler.''

Apparently the mayor of Perth was noteven aware of the origin of the Bill. Obvi-ously lie thought it was a Governmentmeasure. Nobody had told hint that it was;introduced by a privnte muember. T ant ina position to tell thme mayor of Perth thatthe mlember who introduced the Bill inlanother place is neither a boozer nor agambler. I have known 'Mr. Boyland for30 years, and although in his day lie wasa great athlete, hie never has been given toeither boozing or to gambling. The renmarksof the mayor were uncalled for. Surelythere is less harmn in purchasing a ticket ina lottery designed for a charitable purposethan there is in purchasing oil shares andboosting them on tile market, notwithstand-ing that -no oil has been struck. I mov

That the Bill bie now read a secondtime.

lion. A. LOVERIN (Metropolitan) [5.0]:1 second the motion.

The PRESIDENT : I would point outthat it is out of order for members toanticipate an ame~ndmlent Which appears onthe notice paper, or to discuass the terms ofall amendment which appears on the noticepaper, when on the second reading of aBill.

lon. A. LOVEKIN: Although I do notagree with the provisions contained inClause 2 1 second the motion that the Billshould he read a second time. I take thisenurse because there are many memberswho bold views -very nearly ak-in to mineon this subject of gambling, and whto inayhe disposed to vote against the secondreading thinking that may improve thleposition. In whatever direction we maydesire the Bill to be amended it is heces-ssry to vote for the second reading. If wedo not pass time second reading we shallm'otbe able to bring forward this sessionanother Bill to amend Section 212 of the('rintinal ('ode. In the case of this Bill wewill have thle title, and Clause 1, and if wepass the second reading stage we shall beable to dleal with the second clause in anywax- we ay think fit. It scents to medesirable that we shonuld take this oppor-tunitv of amending the Criminal Code. Sec-tion 212, of the Criminal Code says-

Any person who opens, keeps, or usesany place for carrying onl a lottery ofany kind whatever is guilty of ant-denmeanour.

Purther on it says--The term] 'lottery'' includes anlyscheme or device for the sale, gift, dis-posal or contribution of anv money, ad-vantage or property of any kind depend.-jag upon or determined by lut or chancewhether hy tile throwving ot -69 tigOfdice, or the drawing of tickets, cat-da,lots, numbers or figor-es, or by means of'a wheel or trained animial, o r otherwisehowsoever.

It was decided by the late M.%r. Roe, PoliceMagistrate, that the sale of a lottery ticketin itself did not coute within Section 212.I know of eases where tickets have beensold but nothing has been done. InspectorMann told mne tlte police couldl not proceedagainst persons for merely selling tiekcts,because 11e offence was not colnillete. Iftha.t be the correct interpic-tition of thlesi-etion, and I think it is, it is desi-aleNi the iaitercsts of the community tha-.t Weshould rot only cecek the drawin.X of lot-torivs, but put aL Siop if we r an to -toe Saleof hiekts by anyone who likes to printtlhc'm andl pass tin on to the 1rublic. iCommtittee I propose to move anl amend-Iment wbich wilt tighteni up thie section re-fiur-ed to and rmke the sale of tickfets altwell as the drawing of lotteries ati offence.Those of us who have had to do with chanit-nble institotions know well that a good

1458

1[26 OCTOBER, 1921.]

riveal of money is raised for thema by thesale of lottery ticket;, by reason of thefact that the sale has not been interferedwith. There have been a great manyfraudulent lotteries permitted. Women havepromoted them and tickets have been soldand the proceeds appropriated. Childirenhave enllected-ia the streets for, say, thjeChildren 's Hospital by means of d'e saleof tickets for a lottery, but h 1v3 returnedinone of thle proceeds. If I could, I wouldso tighten up tile lawv that the sale oftickets wouldl in itself constitute anl otfenceas well as tile drawing of a lottery. I do.not think it is possible to stop lotteriesaltogether, but we canl regulate them. Ifwe attempted to stop thenm altogether theywould he carried onl illicitly. If they areto be carried out at all it is better that thisshould he done under regulation. Later onl,therefore, I shaill prop~ose that we shouldstop the sle of tickets ad the drawing oflotteries except with thle permission of thleMinister. Inu Committee T propose tofurther tighten up the amendment appear--ing. on the -Notice Paper iii my nmame by theaddition of two or three words. I ask

mlemlbers to vote for the second reading ofthis Dill so that in Committee we maydeal withl Clause 2 with the object ofmaking Section 232 of the Criminal Code ef-fective, insteadi of ineffective as it is to-day. Ihiave received a number of circulars fromt dif-ferent b~odies askinbg that thle Bill1 should bethrowni out. I have replied to each of themipointinig Out thlat if we throw out the Billwe miust fall back( upon thle Criminal Codeas it stands, that the law permits innie tosell tickets with impunity, anrI ihat there-lore the better course is tu use the Bill fortile purpose of tightening up the law. In aleases in which people have been strongly'opposed to the Bill I have pointed out theposition to them, and notwithstanding the ye-solutions which have been passed ninny hlaveconcurred with me in thinking that it wouldFie as well to take this opportunity of tighiten-ing up the section.

Ron. A.- SAN DERSON (Metropolitan-Subit-urban) [-3.71: Y admire the audacity of thlelion,. miember who has seconded this motion.After the clearest indication of the positionof affairs hie hus dragge1 in this amnendmient.T devoted thle whole of my attention to hisspeech to trying to disentang.Ele the debate onlthe second reading of this Bill from theamnendmnent appearing on tile Notice Paper,'and to understanding hlow much of his re-miarks. were devoted to the Bill and hlow inuchto the proposed amendment. For mny part Ipropose to devote the whole of my attentionto the Bill as it comes; before us. Y offer my'ncompromnisinig hostility to it. I do not

mnake that remark with the object of im-pressing mnembers, T regret to gar that mn'Yuncompromising hostility to the Bill will 'jotnecessarily procure its9 rejection on the se-ondi rendinae. T ninntion this to iudicate thatlion. members may discount the remarks I

am making to any extent they like. I doask them, however, to pay some attention notonly to my own method of putting these mat.tera before them, but to the opinions of peo-ple who are loudly protesting against theBill. I give thle mover of this motion thefullest credit for the best Of intentions.

Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoom: You couldnever accuse the hall. member of anythingelse.

Hon. A. SANDERISON: It is not a ques-tionl Of our intentionIs here; it is A queCstionof what we bring about as a result of ouractions here. I warmoly con gratulate the Gay.eranient upon not having made this a Goy-ermnent mieasure. We shall now have theLeader of the House as anl absolutely ide-pendent persoin whto will give Lii the greatbenefit of his opinion Oft thle questionl.

Haot. .T. W. Kirwan: You evidently knowthe views of the Leader of the House.

Hion. A. SANDERSON: T know nothingWhatever about themk except front his publicposition and public record. The people, it issaid, do not understand this Bill. I have heardremarks before about thle intelligence of thepeople. T admit that in the ease of rathercomplicated, technical details thle public veryoften rio not tunderstand all that is broughtbefore Par-liamnit. Buit there are subjects inlwhich the people ace deeply interested, andwhich they have a ietter opportunity than wehave of understanding, and to whichi they de-v'ote a great deal mtore attention than wecall. This is one of those subjects.

1101]. J,. Cornell: Who are thieY?lion. A. SANDFtSO'N: The public be-

longing to tlhe w;orld in which T live.Ron. T1. Corniell: They live in an worldl about

the size~ of anl almond thit.THon. A. S.MNDERSON: T will make a

note of thait. Thle people do not understandthis subject.

Honl, A. Lovekin: That is true.l-Ton.. A. SANDEIISON: I ami going to put

this before thle House in my own -way. Ihave evidence before tile that this subject hasexcited great attention in a very wide circlecovering all parts of the country. The corres-pondence at any rate ele-irly indlicates to miethat the people understand thoroughly whatthey are discussing. According to my view ofthis question, there are certain laws which areset down for our guidance whether uwc dealwith the question of finance or of morals, Ifwo are wise and have any experience or sensewe shall endeaLIvour as far as, possible to obeythese laws. T mnaintain that Inst as the( Go-emintient have violated ecollnie laws in theirpoilicy, this Bill violates mnoral lu-ws as I un-derstand then. T amn not presumning to takea lofti- attitude onl this matter. f merelywish to convince neniller)VS that thev- Should1reject this Bill onl the second reading. I amdelighted to see tile Lender of the H-ouse hllanl absolutely free position. I rejoice to thinkthat hiis experienre and his '-esponlsibilitiesas Minist'-r for Education must conipel memt-bers to give special we eiht to his opinion, iintonli- because lie is a Minister of the Crown

1460 [COUNCIL.]

dealing with the education of the children,but because on this occasion at any rate hieis perfectly free to give us his owni opiiou;and his own opinion is inicusely increasedill value by reason of the fact that hie is theMinister for Education.

Hon. Sir Edward Wittenooni: W'e canthink for ourselves. Why should we be ledby the Minister for Education?1

lion. A. SANDERSON: Most decidedly.This is a matter for uis to deride for our-selves. Sir Edward Wittenoom Is method ofconducting Parliamnentary affairs is appar-ently to vote at once, viewing discussion asof little value. I half expected him to getup and move that the question be now put.If thle lion, member is not anxious to bemnovedl by argument, I will not address my-self to him. This is not a party House andwe are not tied here. I consider that discus-sions have influenced votes on the floor ofthis Chamber. That is a most gratifyingaspect, although I admit it has a tendency toprolong the debate. I never lecture people,but I have implored people to listen to argu-meats. As to the suggestion that 'I wouldpresume to dictate to lion. members, I wonld]niot he so stupid as to do that, because thereis nothing more calculated to make peoplevote against one thant to adopt a dictatorialattitude.

Hoea. Sir Edward Wittenoom- You said weshould be guided by tile 'Minister for Edo-cation.

lion. A. S&NDEIRSON: I repeat that Iala delighted that the Minister for Educationis free upon this question. Ile baa responsi-bilities attaching to his office as 'Minister forEducation and without knowing anythingabout his views, I trust and hope and believethat lie will be as much opposed to this Billas I am.

The 'Minister for Education: I am, that isquite true.

Hon. A. SAN\DERSON: ]Knowing that,and knowing the influence that the Ministercarries in this Chamber, I would be preparedto sit down under the belief that thle iaotioubefore the House would be defeated. I wouldgladly do so were I not almost bound to givevoice to the correspondence which I, in cunm-nion. with possibly other members, have re-ceived. In some instances, the correspondenceFeenis to me to be rather more personal thanin the nature of a circular to he sent toevery member. Soniclion. menmber inter-jected that these people to whom I referred,do not represent any considerable section ofthle commnunity. I think I can satisfy lion.members by naming thle districts from whichthese people write. There are all kinds ofoi-ganisations represented but they are allengaged in thle one thing, namiely, anl attempt,to the best of their ability, to look after themoral welfare not only of the community butof the children of this State.

lon. A. H. Panton: And members of Par-lIalicaet, too.

lion. A. SANDERSON!. They are beyondredecmption. At any rate, we may consider

ourselves, in thle best sense of the word, mein~of the world. We aire entrusted with oMeresponsibility far thle welfsre of thi- wholecommunity, and especially of the uhildrenof the State. That cannot lie qUe-niO]ned. Iwish, to refer to what I regard as tout, of1 themost important sections in thle aunnja, reportfurnishied by the Commnissioner of Police. Ihave not been able to verify the qjuotation,but it appears in one of his reimor', whereinlie states that all the laws al( rogmilarinns,police, both male and femiale, andl :hi ihtee-tb-c force combined, aire ineffectiv i jnk-ing amends for the loss of partiital controlandi parental discipline over the clhiilrn ntto-day. Thus, our ownL oticiab., recuogni.,ethat all the laws and piolice, and detectives,and children's courts even, are futile if wedesire to get that standard of good-we Mlwrish to see that standard achieved, I take it-that canl only be achieved by assis"tingparents regarding the control an~d manage-ment of their children. These pleople havethe right to speak on behalf of the children,and certainly nmembers cannot charge themwith attempting to line their own pockets orattempting to get advanitages over otherpeoplte, whatever else they way- say abolutthem. We must giv-e thiem (cit, asIgavethe mover credit far thle les-t and highestmiotives and intentions, with regard to theircorrespondence in opposition to then Bill.

Hon. J. Cornell: Sonic of them have verylong noses.

The PRESIDENT: Order!lion. A. SAND EFRS)N : [. dto not wish to

follow the hion. m)emnber regarding, the amenid-orient or regarding long noses. I will read :aYew of the namies of the boiic reprE-itetlin the -correspondlence I referred to. They'include the W1omnen 's Christian TemperanceUnion, the Women 'a Service Guild, numerousletters from Wesleyan and Presbiy te ri aiInanses, a letter from the Australian Prutes-tant Fedoeration, another from thu NationalCouncil of Woien, one from the AnglicanSocial Questions Committee, another from thePresbyterian Church of Australia, and mianyoth~ers as wvell. These people are entitled tolie heard with the greatest respect for theirairgumnents. It ls been suggested that be-e.lLI5O there is a certain amoun111t Of gaftmblingoil the stock exchange, there is some instifi-cation for this Bill, but that argument doesiiot seen to nie to have anything whateverto do with this question.

Ron. F. A. Bagini: WhIy d1o not thosepcopile p~rotest against that form of garnlhing-!

lion. A. SANDERSON: They do protestaigaiiist it. In that ease, however, I doublt ifthese people really do0 understand -what theyregard as gambling on tin' stock e xchanige.I do nut intend to go into thme sublleet ef t1wmoveaseats in the stock inairlet, or, a- 'nimemembers may prefer to regard it. as, 4Ilnnlhi-hung-but I regard time inovemt-it, a- avery intricate and iimportant porthar. (if marfinancial system. It may lie aisusci as imother departments. of nior finance;; men v Iewmisused. I will not pursue~ that a-pel-t fll--

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[26 OCToBER, 1921.] 1

ther, however, but again remind the Housethat these people are entitled to the greatestrespect. It is because these people think theBill will have a had effect on the childrentthat they ask for thle rejection of the measureat the second reading stage. I agree withthem and I trust members will reject theDill.

lion. J-I.W. H-II(EY (Central) [. 4>Like 'Mr, Sander-son and others, I have re-ceived a large sheaf of correspondence fromindividuals andl organisations and [1 havegiven it due consideration. I agree with Mr,Sanderson that thre whole of those correspon-dents are either representative individuals orrepresentative orga nisations, who are entitledto every respect and consideration. Natur-ally whlets one receives correspondence ofsuch a character, the attention it deserves isgiven to that correspondence. I gave it mnybest consideration and realised that the cor-respondents were prom~pted from the veryhlighest mo1tivesi ill their endeavour to infor-ence the votes of members in connectionwvith the Bill. In addition to those rend by'Mr. Sanderson, If have a large number, moreor less private, from my own province as well,urging me to vote against the second readingof thre Bill. T always respect the opinionsof those opposed to me oil various questionsand if I could strain a point and vote in thedirection suggested, I would be happy to doso. Having had somne experience in mnattersof this kind, I endeavoured to get into touchwith, some of the people inl order to get theirview, After a little espination somie ofthre correspondents re~alised that they hadbet-n rather hasty, and that the Bill was notso dangerous as they anticipated. T do notthink I will be successfully charged with be-ing a wowser, but .1 do not inulge in gamb-ling beyond nit occasional trip to thle races.where I back my Judgment, or want of judg-mnent. I dTo Lnot play bridge, but I havehad experience in condneting lotteries,sweeps and so on, and have been endeavour-ing for the greater part of my life to raisenioneyv in aid of various worthy or charitableobjects. t have hai, perhaps, as mchesperieuc-e ais anyone elso in this Housein conuection with those matters, and I real-ise that if tim Bill is passed, it will safeguardthe position of the community to a greaterextent than is the case to-day. I realise thedangers that are, connected with lotteries. I1amr satisfied to vote for the second readingof the Bill witliout touching upon any ofthe amendmnents which have been indicated.I desire to see the Minister have full con-trol of these matters. The danger which isfeared by sonic of these people, is that allsorts of individuals may run lotteries fortheir own benefit, I admit there are suchbdangers but to-day the law is, to a certainextent, winked at, and lotteries, sweeps, andso on, are being run. If the 'Minister wyereill full control of lotteries, I would not beconcerned whether poWe.rq -dr, vested in the

police officers or anyone else, so long as the'Minister had that control.

Hon, 3. Jr. Holmnes: Has he not full powernow?

N-on. 3. IV. HICKEY: Not altogether. Iwould like to see, if a sweep were being runby an Organisation such as the Ugly Men'sAssociation, the Minister Bead an officer whowould take full control, just as an auditorwho goes into a business office would takecontrol of affairs. If that arrangement weretrade, the interests of the coinsunity wouldbe safeguarded and the position would hemnuch safer than in the past. There havebeen ninny critics regarding the attitude ofmuembers of Parliament on this subject, andone of the critics u-as the mayor of Perth.'I was surprised to see that ha' referred tomemnbers of Parliament as Jockeys. This isthe identical term that 'Bull' I- Callanian usedtowards miembers of Parliainent at Kal-goorlie. This is an. r~iv phraise aiid ienihers of Parliament, accordinig to tile I.W.W.,Organisation, are jockeys. That is to say,they' ride onl the peopple 's backs, and so on.There is a st range similar-ity- about 'the terinsand 1I ami surprised] that the mayor of Perthhas not been taken to task. Perhaps sonicineniber of Parliament will m~ove in that di-.ection at seine future date but it is signifi-canit that, for once in their lives, ''Bull''Callanan and time mayor of Perth a-re onl corn-11101 ground. .I suipport time Bill because ofits worthy object. Referencee has been mandeto the moial effec-t it nwill have on our ehlidren. If the -Minister had sufficient influence,i' mnight persuade the Government to take

full umuprol and finance thre Fresh Air League,and if this were ulone,'the member in chargeof the Bill would probably be prepared towithdraw it. I do net think the Minister-is plre-pared to go that far. One of tire great-est benefits which this Bill will confer willhe on the Fresh Air League. This leaguewill hie enabled to raise msoney yenar afteryear so that the kiddies living awray in thn-drier- areas of tile goldfields may be giveni

a munch needed change. If the Bill is notsupported, it will be imposible to carry onthe league.

Hon. E. H. Harris: They have raised themioney in years gone by.

Hon. 3. W. MICKEY; Yes, and by variousnmethiods, but the goldIflelds are not now ina flourishing conidition. Where in tile past aaman would give :U-i to the Fresh Air League.iii these day, S lie Camino1t afford -is. Only bythese mieanls can we hope to raise the niees-saryv mocney. Next year thre league will finda difficulty sunless they cant avail themnselvesOf thle p)r)viSiOmis Of this ieasure. If Ithouight tile Bill 'Would have all '- detrimentaleffect onl the moral welfare of the children,I would not support it. We cannot deny -thegood which has beemi done by the Ugly Men 'NAssociation, hut Only these connected withfime urwranisatiun know.- how much good isbeing dlone. Uless somlething of this hindis Oven to them, that organisation will loseniuch Of the poster and influence which to-

1461

1462 [couIICI.]

day are exercised] for good. 'Then considerthe Various Soldiers' institutes. There is oneat Geraldton which has been built upby publie effort ani is second to none inthle 'State. Ladly Newdlegate, the Premier,and Colonel Denton, who visited it recently,spoke of it as being one of the best in theState. In its battling dlays that institutewas short of a billiard table. I pro-moted a n art union and raised sum.fidient money, with very little trouble out-side pers.onal labour, to enable a billiard tableto be provided. Seeing that we were tpre-pared to help ourselves a little other peoplecame along and that institute to-day has twobilliard tables, and in my opinion-whichopinion is shared by thle Governor, the Pre-nier, and other visitors--it is the mast up todlate institution of its kind in the State. Ifthe proposal in the Bill is safeguarded andtile regulations are tightened up gener-ally, there will not be the slightest dangerfrom the passing of the mieasu-e. With allclue respect to those people and organisationawho have brought pressure to bear on mem-bers to oppose the Bill, I say that we shouldtake the good with the bad and view the'matter broadly, and, provided the Ministerhas full control and adequate safeguards areinserted, there will be no danger in passingthe Bill.

Hon. S. 'NICHOLSON (Mfetropolitan)[5.341:. 1 intend to oppose the second read-ing. I have listened with close attentionto wbat has been said by previous speakers,and especially by the member who movedthe second reading. I join with other mnem-bers in saying that *I do not doubt thehonesty and sincerity of the motives ofthose responsible for the introduction of theBill. I believe they think that, by 3egalis-ing lotteries, they will bring about a cer-tain advantage to charitable and otherworthy objects which will be beneficial tothe community at large. This is where Ijoin issue with those members. Instead ofworking a benefit, as they anticipate willbe the ease, very serious detriment to themoral welfare of the community will result.The Bill is a very short one but it touchesa principle vita) to the moral life of thecommunity. The question to be decided iswhether we shall legalise that which at thepresent time is distinctly illegal.

Hon. T'. Moore: But which is carried ongenerally.

Ron, J. NICHOLSON : I admit thatmany of these things have been carried onsub rosa, but is it wise in the interests ofthle community to give that freedom ofaction to do what at the present timepeople are restrained from doing? As thelaw stands it exereises a wholesome re-sAtralat in regard to those things which it isbetter we should not do in the name ofcharity. Under the cloak and guise andin the name of charity, we are asked tolegalise these games of chance. This will

be destroying one of the very fundamentalteachings of the Bible, namely charity.

Hon. R-. G1. Ardagh: Et will bave to bedlone under the lap?

Hon. J. NICHOLSONX: It should not bedone at all.

Ron. R. 0. Ardagh: But it is (touno1,w.Hon. J. NICHOLSON : It %houlil be

stopped and stopped definitely. Mentionwas made by 'Mr. Lovekin of a ease decidedby the late Mfr. Roe in the ]police court and,speaking from memory, the bll. ntcmber'sreference was correct. I believe M.%r. floedecided that the mecre issuing if ric-ketswas not a lottery, anilif memnber, rter totile section of the Art, they will st-v that itis the drawing of the tickets% that consti-tutes the lottery, not the issuing of thetickets. The very fact that the law- pro-hibits the drawing of tickets will exer-ise,a wholesome restraint in connection withthose lotteries conducted in the name ofcharity.

Hon.' A. Lovekin: It means that you cansell the tickets, but nut draw the lottery.

Hon. 3. NICHOLSON: During the war Ihad the honour of occupying a scat oii theWar Council, and before anyone could makean appeal to the public, it -was neeessar % toget the consent of the War Council. Weconducted the closest scrutiny into thecharacter of these appeatls. it waS Verydifficult to devote the ncessary time to thework, but we did so. T can well recollect,and I could produce the facts if neces-sary--

The Minister for Education: I have them.lion. J. NICHOLSON: I was about to

refer to a very glaring instance. The coun-try was flooded with these lottery ticketsand the people did not get that which theyshould have got. As the Leader of tileHouse has the facts, he will be able to placethem more accurately before the Housethan I could possibly do from memory. Thecommlittee exercised control and did a lotto prevent the diversion of funds fromi theirproper channels. We have a very seriousresponsibility as legislators. The very factthat so runny sections of the eommuaityand so many people have protested againstthis proposal to legalise lotteries is the bestevidence that it bus aroused the auger andIndLigna~tion of the public, and is thle bestreason why we, with a full sense of ourresponsibilities, should cast our votesagainst this Bill.

Hon. F. A. Baglin: How many peoplewere present at the town hail meeting?

Ron. J. NICHOLSO'N. I was not thiere;I do not know.

lion. P. A. Baglia:, The newspaper stated200.

lion. J1. 'NICHOLSON: The Bill iiriiviilesfor worthy objects, but it is very hardl tosay what interpretation would he laned onthe word ''worthy.'' It is capable of thewidest possible meaning, and couldl hestretched in such a way thant in the guiseof doing this, that or thef other, authotrity

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[26 OCTOBER. 1921.] 1463

would be given. What would the resultbe? That is what we bare to look at. Theresult would be that the country would beinundated north, south, east and west withthese lottery tickets. Mr. Sanderson men-tioned a very important matter, that of.parental control. Have not we, as legisla-tors, a duty to try to preserve parentalcontrol, and not give greater freedom whichwill perhaps lead to its destruction. If wedo not destroy this Bill, we will be loosingthe bonds of parental control to such anextent that the children will become so en-grossed in the devices wiceh will be pro-vided for them and the methods to inducethem to enter into these schemes, that in-stead of following hones t occupations asthey should, their attention will be divertedinto paths other than the right one.

Hon. J. Cornell: Do you go about blind-folded to-dayt

Hon. .1. NICHOLSON: I do not, and I donot pretend to be innocent of ever havingtaken part in lotteries. Every member atone time or another has done so, but experi-ence is the best means of affording proofand conviction that where a wrong exists,'it is better to wipe the evil out. It hasbeen suggested that all life is a lotteryor a gamble. I have always been taughtto regard life as something very seri-ous, and neither a lottery nor a gambleThere is this abiout a lottery, that it is dif-ferent altogether fromn share transactions.If lion. mlembers will take the trouble to ex-

amnine thle two tiley will recognise that thereis considerable difference between a personin~-esting in shares, whether for a rise orotherwise, and taking a ticket in a lottery.A unan investing in shares ian) help on in-clalstry and incidentally may make a rise, justin the samea way as a minnl who puts in a crophopes to get anl abundant yield which willrecou p himi not only for his labour, but willgiac lhit a decent profit afterwards. 1 do0mot s4ee that putting in that crop is a lottery.A inau has worked and sweated in putting inthe cl-op and lie is hel ping forwuard ou r Wnas-tries. A lottery does not help a single in-dunstry-. That ivhiel, it is pr-oposed to benefitby. the Bill is an object of a charitablecharacter. So far as I caul see, the intro-dutction of lotteries will destroy those in-stiltets .. li-h we recognise as instincts ofchairity. A inan ouaght to give freely atidvoluntarili-, not by the temptation or the in-du-ernent of a prize by' a lottery or soamesuch thing. Hie should give without expect-hag any reward or return.

Hon. T. M.ioore: The Lord loveth the cheer-faill giver.

Hon. T1. NICHOLSON: I might also quotea few texts whbich would help to convincethe laon. member. There is this to be said,that apart from the question of destroyingthose charitable instincts in mankind geti-orally, we also create in our midst a greaterevil and a menace, that is, the inducementamongst the young to gamble. That is not

[52]

beneficial to the rising gener-ationa, and we aslegislators, are bound, if possible, to checkthat for the benefit of the commaunity. Thepublic of Western Austr-alia have alaow" ina anundoubtedly marked] way that they are agenerous people, and I ana sorry to think thatsome lion. maember-s believ-e that, ill order toprompt that generosity, it is necessary tooffer some kind of reward, aind that for sucha purpose it is necessary that legislationshould be passed. The Bi is. anl insult tothe generosity of thle public of this State.Manly public bodies have beean fornmed andhave organised in the cause of ellarity somleof the finest possible deeds.

Hon. A. H-. Pauton : Mo1st of them, onl a bitof a gamble.

Hion. J. NICHOLSON: ]t is mluch betterto do without tile gamble when one sees whatthle effect is, and especially when we getletters such as one I hav-e h;ere from a tax-pay-er. This is anl instance of any otherletters I have received in coaaa..alio with othermembher%. I too received the letters whichwere read by Mr. Sanderson and others and,with the permission of the House, I will readwhat a pivaote citizen has written to me.Tie says-

As a citizen of this State of over 26years' standing, and the father of a famnilyof seven, I must take this opportunity oflaying hefore you, as the people's i-epic-sentative in tile Council, a solemin protestagainst the thlreatened legahisitag of lot-teries. Six of any children ore soins, slidthree of thlem are facing the problemls ofyouth, and I dre-ad to think of the ultinmateeffect upon the rising generation by the re-umoral of the bonn of illegality upon lot-teries as proposed. T pray and beseech youto do your tmlost to thi-ow out this in-vasion of tile sacredl right of our Christianconscience.

That citizen's voice is iii no inlall way tlacopinionl of a very large sectioa of the Coni-nimnnity, and what hie Ilas written is entitledto the fullest respect. I hope that hon,. ,aaem-hels will give serioals consideration to theBill, and will deride in favour of its l-ejet-tion.

Hon. J. 'MILLS (Centr-al) [5.53]: 1 donot intend to support a mleasure which willlip productive of evil that good might comeout of it. If the Bill becoanes law, it wvill bea retrograde step and it will be increasinglydifficult for the police to eoantrol gambling,which is already-

Ron. .1. fluffell: Rampiat.Hon. J. MILLS It is not so long sincef

u-as on a racecourse, where I saw a ''jenny."There was only one constable on the lace-course and his attention was diverted bysomeone who was apparenitly connected withthle "jenny,"~ and dnring that period tllisgambling machine "-as operated. There wasabsolutely no excuse for- tlat ''jeuny' beingon the racecourse, but if the Bill becomes lawit will be possible for tlais fori, of gamblingto operate. We often hear of children

1464 tcotsr-x~a

atteniing State sehools being invitedl to takepart in charitable tmovenmetits of all kinds,and it will mean that a spinning ''jenny''will be part of the school furniture. Ihave ito time for anything of that kind andtherefor- will oppose the second reading ofthe Bill.

lion. S~ir EDWARI) WITTENOOM(North) 15511. 1 first of all desire to regis-ter my pirotest against a Bill of this kindhanving. beven introduced by a private mnember.A ill dealing with giiing and lotteriesshod. 1l be of a ettlirelieAive nature antishol lie submitted hr the Government.

lT'e Minister for Edutcation : The Govern-nicilt Would not touch it.

Hlon. Sir EDWARD WITTEXQOM: Then,i thoseQ cir-cuimstancets, we must deal with

what ha-i been Presented hr a private ttetn-her. I ali i favour of-certaitn forms olfganmhlitig ond against others. Therefore Iwould like to see certain forms of gamblingrecogn1ised and controlled. J regard the Billas a n iniprovemnt onl what has beeti pre-viouslv i-cedoe us, aid I initend to support the

scIni reading, though it miust not be Inl-ferred 1 runt tlhtt that 1 intend to support thle'Bill as it is. There is no doubt a. large sec-tion of tin' cotmmtunity, acc-ordig to the letters1 have r'ivi- tihare almost sinmilor tothose rend by 'Mr. Saudersoit-are opposedto tlte H4ill, and titere is strong ground fortiie optousitioit to lotteries andi ganmbling.Mlr.3Iills said just ntow flint sotte gatmbling,imeut onl while bie was actually looking at it.The Bill u-ill be the very thing to stop thatforei of gamtbling, because it will not heltCSSiI,' for it to take plaro uttless tine i-ott-set of' -li Mfinister is fit-st obitained.

lion1. .1. ilffell : It will throwl a great re-sponsibilit)' ott the M inister.

Ruin. 4 ir EDWARD) WJT'PENOM: Weha%-c to reQuteinbler that in a cotmimtnity likeouts there al-e matt charitable obijects flint1mv to hev suppoorted, a ad I ant one of thosewholu believe in what I call a certain amountof imiocent gatubhing for thn' suppiort of thoseeliariti-. I tiar instanee the baztar and thelucky hag. People call that gambling. I1 donot rall it gntmbling. Everybody goes to aboazaar ani knows perfectly well that hie wilinever get vatlue fur his mtoney- there. A per-son who goesi in (or a luceky bag also knowsver 'y inill thaqt lie will not get anything for the6id, or the Isq. that hie invests. Therefore Ium. of opiniotn that then', should. be sonielatitude giveti whierebym different organisa-tions, mtiy be assistedl to raise a certainialnuint of motleY. If munietting of the kindis not lotte, as the mnettiier who introducedtite Bill said, tile qunestion of gising will haveto lo, left to the it illing few. 'We know thattiterv na-c a few peole who subscribe totines' objets titte after time, atnt that thereore Ininny others who could subscribe hut whowill nt. Those people, htowever, who are notalways prepared to give a little fur nothingwill (often be found willing to give a littleffor unmetbing. Consequently, bazaars9 and1

lotteries might be permitted under propercontrol. The trouble in connection writh thewihole of the business is the power that willbe given to the Minister. Suppose we had aMinister in office who was not exactly of thathigh conscient ions nature that -Ministers inthis Rouse aIre, hie might use his position intile direction of giving pet-atissionl to eon-duct lotteries and bazaars just before election

H~on. A. .J. H,. Saw: He would he afraidto refuse then.

liotn. Sir EDWARD WITTENOOM\: Notif hie were like some Ministers 1 hnre known.The only fear I have is that the Ministerwould Iw' persistently worried in regard tothese matters. 'Mr. Sanderson said that Lwas opposed to debaiting these matters. Iassure hint . ami only too dlelighted to de-bate themca, but I do resent what he said,that we should follow thle dictates of thleMinister for EdIneation in his private capace-itv. Even if tile Minister were reduced, aslie miay be, to the status of a private indi-vidual, we would exercise our privateopinions. I thank the lion1. member for thecastigation lie ga~le ate, and J trust at alltinies lie will not he afraid to dlisvuss Billsat length, irrespective of what views I Mayhold. It is no use going into the whole ques-tion of gambling because I hold strotig viewsonl it. I ami iii favour of a certain form ofgambling and I anti opposed to others. Inthle citc-umstaiict's, however, I intend to sup-port the second reading of the Bill, and Ihopie to aliii it inl Con11imitee in such a wayas to make it a better mneasure titan it is.Tf thle Bill is thrown out, we shall go oil aswe arc doing, holdilng lot teries, bazaairs, andsweeps attd h-eitg persistently alnnoyedl in rthestreets.

Butt. TI. 0. Arilagh : They- are swinles.li. Si4r EDWARD) VIT NOUM: I amn

not in a position to say they are swindles.I have never )ecit swindled at oiie of titeii.However, if we pass the second reading aD]thtent amlend the tmeasure in Comttmittee, wemtay- plave oursves-C inl a very nMnch betterposition thtan thle existing otme. The oiti -vtroubie is the tesponsibility of the Mlittister;

*X~ lin i.to rely ott the 'Minister to carry'v utieviews embouieil ii te li'iicasute. I slip pot

tle secoind teniding.

lionl. H. STEWA%'RT (South-West) [b21I hold v-ery string views tegarding the tncedfor natiottal character as the safeguard oftilt naltionl race. That welfare is espleciallywell safeguardled, I hold, if we mittan tilt'welfaqre of children. and p.Lretital control. Itis unnlecessary for tie to traverse tile grondcoreyred by previons speakers wloi hiavt'pouinted out ft' weakntess likely to C,,sne upitnthle passing of this Bill. It Is the Bill w-ithwhichl I antl tow couucerned, and11 mly perslS-1fcelittg is that time ameasatre shonid tnever, illits liresent form, have conic before the Leg-i'ulatnre. At the -.alie time, T fuilly reengitist'rite goontess of the motives avtuating tin'spionsorsi of the Bill iii another place- DF,1 here.Yet I am ronlipelieol to disagree entirely fiotti

r261 OCTOBER, 1921.] 14653

their views. Casting back our minds uponthe history of nations, we must recognise thatthose which have decayed or are decayinghave exhibited the gambling spirit and in-dulged in ntation~al or governmental lotteries-and Iotteries are now actually a State m'atterin certain of cu' r Eastern States, A~s a legisla-tive Chamiber we should utterly dissolution-.One an-v. weakening of the legal attitude to-wards the gamibling evil. The effect of pass-ing this Bill canl only be the further weak-enting of a tendlency' already weak in ourpeople-iamely, tile tendency to promotesocial welfaro and tile general interests oftile commnunity by donations and bellefuctions.At this time it is well to meat ion in thatecunneetion thle aaly~st of gelltlenl, personl-allY unknown to tile, Who during tile fa-st fewweeks have inlle generous endowments ofeducationi-'Mr. Seeligson, Mr. Vincent anadMr. Coomibe; and the list includes also thenanme of a mnember of this House, Mr. L 'you.Possibly that spirit will extend. Benefac-tions are badly ncd~c by the Uni vcrsity. Tiletendency of thle Bill, if enacted, mutst beto weaken thle spirit'tof genlerosity which hashitherto, without assistance from gambling,maintained so worthy an institution as theFresh Air League.

Ro..1. WV. Kirwan: The league' w tork isat a in end.

IRon. ii. STrEWARTI: f feel myself Ilnaito accept that sorrowful proiiounrcienlt as anauthloritative sta temen'It, evenI though it colloeslborn a representative of the districts inwhich the league has carried on its beneficentwork. The weakening of parental infitiene'over the rising generation has been, alludedto by several ineinbers. A Child Welfare Con-ferenc held in Perth somle year or two agofelt boulnd to eldoers? thie Police Depatrtmnent 'sview thlat juvenile delinquency was largelyduie to lack of parental control. Mr. Love-kil's argument is that members should veofor the Bill in older that hie may introducein to it certain anIlciI dIIents duiring thle Comi-mittee stage. A peculiar feature of thisHouse is tllat onie never knows how themajority of ileinbers are going to vote. Ihave no gua~ran~tee that a certain amendmentthle min g of wli i c is p romnised, will hiecarried.

Hon. Sir Edward Wittenooni: Then we canlthrow tile Fill out onl the third reading.

Hlon. H1. STEWARIT: To that suggestion,I may possibly give consideration before themeasure is finally disposed of. I realise thatSection 212 of thle Code stands ill need ofamendment. I advocate the tightening lip ofthat section. and mnaking the position moredefinite. Still, T do not feel (i~posed to sup-port the second reading of this measure inorder to give opportunity for thle ca rryingof an aniendmtent which is not before theHouse.

Hart. A. H1. PAXTON (West) [6.121: Thave listened with mnueh interest to the dos-hate on tihis Bill. T an always particularlyinterested to hear expressions of opinion fromi

]tel. nemhers on questions of morality. Thismeasure strikes mie as one whch should givepause to the community generally as well asto the nmemibers of this House. Not only thleeffects which the passing of the Bill is l~ikelyto have should be considered here. but alsothe actual origin of the uneed for its appear-anice in this Chamber. I do not feel verytouch concerned about the effect of the Iunas-tire if carried. The spuonsor of the Bill inthis Chalmber said that his idea, was to assistin raising funds for the Fresh Air Leagueanmd other worthy ciharities onl thle goldfieldls.But there is a certain section of the goldfieldscommunnity that is suffering acutel '-. T referto the worn-out rmers; and the flund forworn-out minlers 'is just about exhausted.Possibly the carrying of this Bill nty assistin that direction. I may lack imlagination,but 1. on, unable to iumaginle any effects fronmthe enactment of the measur ibtat would heworse thlan the state of thlings existing to-dlay.-

Hon. Sir Edward 'Wittenoton: Tile state oftihings wvould becomeo much better.

Hont. A. H1. PANTON: I agree. By ca r-Tying this measure we sha:ll obtain some coil-trol of tile gambling business. To-day' wehve no control whatever . Almost ally dlayof the week, upon going into town one en-tountels little boys and] gills requesting oneto purchase a t ickcet !in something or other.

11oil.-icholson: It is a very, bad prac-tice.

[feon. A. It. PAXTON: Vinloubtel1y; andthis Bill, sub~jct to tile anicfldnient foreshad-owed, will tighten lip thle law against gamn.-blillg in tllat respect. Like othernmenibers,I have received much correspondenee regard-ing this Bill, more especially from my ownelectorate, requesting tile to oppose the incas.are. Like the lion. member who introducedthe Bill, . hlave gone carefully through thecorrespondence without discaverillg any snig-gestion for overcoming existing dlifficulties.Many of the ladies an~d gentlemen who hav'csigned the correspondence are personally wellknowmn to nie, and T. pride myself on beingparticularly. friendly with a great numberof them,,. However, the clulirelles-fronl whieh(cilies mlost of the opposition-must surelyrecognise that thle wvhole wvold to-day is agamble, notwithstanding what -Mr. Nicholsonsaid about life not being a gamble.

Hion. A. Lovekin: Thle Xaliser gambled allor nothinig.

Hon. A. H. PAN'TON: During the past sixyears the whole world has been a gamble.Governmnents hsave been gamibling with thselives of millions of tell: there is no denyingthat fact. Trusts and combines have been,and still are gambling with the foodstuffsaild clothes of thme peoples of the world. Theresult of that hluge gamble is that a few menbecome richer and that mlillious of peoplestarve.

Siting suspended fromt 0.15 to 7.30 po.

lHon. A. Hi. PANTON: Before tea I wasdealing with the question of the Government

1466 [COUNCIL.]

gambling with millions of lives, and trustsand combines gambling in the foodstuffs andclothes of the people. 'Mr. Harris interjectedthat that was a worthy object. Of course itis purely a question of interpretation betweenthe bon. nmember and myself, as to whetherthere is any worthy object in war. Havingbeen through two wars, I have yet to findthe worthy objective of war. Hon. membershave used the argument of parental control,but I fail to see the connection between theBill and parental control. The referencemade by Sir Edward Wittenoom to bazaarsand lucky bags was appropriate in this de-bate. It would be impossible to pass a shopin Perth-inny of which axe owned by wellknown pillars of the chunrch-which has nolucky bag at from Id. to 3d. each. The usualrequest from the kiddie to his dad is for apenny to try his luck in the lucky bag. Inmy opinion there is a considerable amountof hypocrisy in connection with gambling inAustralia. I say that with all due deferenceto lion, members, and especially to those out-side from whom I have received many eom-munications in regard to this question. Asa matter of fact I am personally acquainted

-with many of those gentlemen outside, andcount a number of them as my friends, butI want hon. members and those people gen-erally to face facts as we know them. Oneof the chief items which is overlooked inregard to this question is the gambling spiritof the average Australian. As one who hasworked with most nations, and fought along-side of all nations, I have no hesitation i nsaying that the tendency to gambling isgreater in the Australian than in men of anyother nationality. I have seen two-up playedin the trenches under the nose of the sniper,and poker played whilst the earth rockedand trembled with the explosion of shells.And this is only natural in view of the factthat it has been handed down by our fore-fathers from the very discovery of gold inAustralia. For, after all, our forefathersgambled their lives in coming out to the un-explored parts of Australia in the search forgold. Therefore, the gambling spirit is in-herent in the Australian. In fact, gamblingin Australia is an interesting study. We findthe Postmaster General refusing to carry mailfor Tattersall's sweeps, whilst his colleague,the Federal Treasurer, collects huge sums ofmoney by way of income tax from the w in-ning tickets which the Postmaster Generalhas refused to carry.

Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoom: If it is nothypocrisy, call it inconsistency.

Hon. A. if. PANTON: Call it inconsis-tency if you like. In this State we findthe TPreasury supplemented by enormous sumsof mnoney supplied by the totalisator, whichin my opinion i9 doing more to inculcate thegambling spirit than all the lotteries to beconducted under the Bill are likely to dJo.I want lion. members to say that if there isto be no gamhling, that we shiall start toprevent it at the right point.

lion. E. Hf. Harris: Why not legalise two-up?

lion. A. H. PAYTON: lamnot in favourofthat. I an' opposed to the existing law whichgives the rich man the right to gamble in hisclub, whilst the unfortunate Chinese is rnninto court almost weekly and fined for doingwhat to him is the same thing in his club. As amatter of fact, many of the churches of to-dayguarantee their preachers an annual salaryand then gamble with the chance of collectingthe amount during the year from the congre-gation. T have seen somec envelopes whichhave been given to members of congrega-tions.

Hon. J. Nicholson: But that is a fornm ofgiving.

Hon. A. 31. PANTON: Yes, giving in thehope of a reward hereafter. We have hadvoluminous correspondence from the churches,but I have also a telegram from Kal-goorlie signed by a gentleman for whom allhave profound admiration. I refer to Arch-deacon Collick. We all know what sort ofa n lie is. I had him as chaplain in theSouth African War, and again in the Instwar. This is what Archdleacoin Collick tele-graphed to the member who introduced the

Bilin another place, ''You have my supportin the Lotteries Bill.'' Short and terse,characteristic of the man. Personally, I amopposed to the principle proposed in the Billto assist charity. But I realise that our ex-isting social system has failed to function inlooking after necessitous cases. Faced withthat knowledge, I have to turn to the nextbest method. The Ugly Men's Association,with which I am connected, has obtained thebulk of its money through all sorts of whatSir Edward Wittenoon, would call innocentgambling devices. The Uglics have built anew ward in the Children's Hospital, to behanded over next Sunday, and have under-taken to raise £.9,000 per annum for that hos-pital. Any of the Uglies will confess that inthe Bill lies their chief hope of raising thatmoney, which should be a charge on the tax-payer, by direct giving. It is nonsense tosay that the Bill represents an insult to thecommunity. Whilst I agree with Mr. _Nichol-son that the public of Western Australia havegiven liberally during the Inst six years, yetthe time has arrived when the public are be-ginning to ask themselves how much morethey can afford to give. Again, the -tendencyof the Australian is to have a little gamble.The experience of the Uglies and variousother charitable organisations is that Aus-tralians will always put up 5s. or 10s. for alittle gamble. I am going to assist in thecarrying of this legislation. I will vote forthe second reading because I hope that rhen,in Committee, amiendments are made, we shallbe able to tighten up the legislation. Thepresent loose method of carrying oil sweepsand lotteries is prejudicial to the public gen-erally, andi the Bill represents9 a meaons bywhichi we can improve the whole position. Ifa Minister of the Crown is worthy of his

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office, we can with confidence leave it to hisdiscretion as to whether o# not sweeps shallbe conducted for this or that charitable ob-ject. I will vote for the second reading.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION (Hon.Hf. P. Colebatch-Est) [7.45]: Whilst I in.tend to offer the strongest opposition to theBill I hope to do so in the most moderatemanner possible. I want at the outset to saythat I have the highest regard not only forthe individuals responsible for the introduc-tion of the Bill in another place and here, butalso for their motives. It is not a question ofmotives. Each can give the other credit fordoing what lie thinks is best. I1 am entirelyuninfluenced by the enormous budget ofletters I have received in regard to the Ina-sure. I had done what I could up to thattime in opposition to the Bill before I sawthese letters. The lion, member who pilotedthe Bill through another place asked me, be-fore I received those letters, if I would takeup the Bill in this House. I refused to haveanything whatever to do with it and told himI should oppose it. Sir Edward Wittenoomhas protested against this Bill being intro-duced by a private member, and says theGovernment should have introduced it. TheGovernment did not introduce it because theydo not believe in it. The only member of theMinistry who spoke on the matter in anotherplace, spoke against it. I am afraid Mr.Sanderson has over-estimated my influeneover members of this House.

Hon. A. H. Panton: I hope so.The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: My

experience is that I have only to speak tomembers and they do what they like.

Hon. A. Lovekin: That is about right.Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoom: That is

what it ought to he.The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION:

Quite so! I will draw the attentionof members to the amendment whichappears on the Notice Paper, not forthe purpose of discussing it, because Iwould not be in order, but becauseI have on previous occasions questioned theright ot, any member to place on the 'NoticePaper an amendment to a Bill which has notpassed the second reading stage.

Hon. A. Sanderson: Hear, heartThe MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: To

do so is to do something that is against theproper traditions of this House. I thinkno member has any right to anticipate theresult of a division. What would be the positionif every member took advantage of this fan-cied right, and I deny that it is a right, toanticipate an amendment to a Bill which theHouse has not yet determined shall reach theCommittee stagel Until the House has de-termined that the Bill shall go into Commit-tee, no member has a right to place on theNotice Paper any amendment to that Bill,particularly when we find that these amend-ments are used as arguments in support ofthe Bill. We are asked to support the Billin order that the only effective clause in it

may be replaced by something else, the titleamended and the Bill sent away. I protestagainst the Notice Paper being used in thatnmanner. It is not a proper use to which toput it.

Hon. A. Lorekin: It is a proper thing todo. Everyone knows what is coming on.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Ishould be quite prepared that the StandingOrders Committee of this House should in-quire into this matter and give a decisionupon it. No member has a right to antici-pate that the House will agree to any meas-ure going into Committee. I congratulateMr. Lovekin upon his consistency. wenearly always find that his proposals hangtogether. A few days ago he advocated thatwe should exclude from our schools all child-ren under eight years of age.

Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoom: I think yougave me credit for that.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Nodoubt occupation and employment of child-re,' under eight years of age could be pro-vided by sending them round to sell theselottery tickets.

Hon. R. G. Ardagh: They are doing itnow.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: As'Minister for Education, I must protestagainst this Bill. I hoped the hon. memberwould say how we could prevent childrenfrom selling lottery tickets. What would bethe use of doing that? Example is a morepowerful influence than precept. If, as hon.members suggest, large sums of money aregoing to be raised in this way, it will meanthat in the homes of a great many people inthis State, the result of this or that lottlerywill be the subject of daily conversation atthe meal table. That is where children aregoing to get that sort of influence from theirParents. Mr. Lovekin has referred to thedecision of a previous magistrate in regardto the question of lotteries. No one had ahigher regard for that gentleman than I,but I do not think we are called upon toaccept the decision of a police magistrate asfinal. I do not agree with that decision. Iflion. members will turn to the section, whiehit is proposed to amend, they will find thatit rends-

No person who opens, keeps, or uses anyplace for the carrying on df a lottery-

There is a definition of the ternm ''lottery.''It is as follows:-

The term ''lottery'' includes-That is as much to say it may be somethingelse, but that it includes these things. Itis not an all-embracing definition-

any scheme or device for the sale, gift,disposal, or contribution of any money,advantage, or property of any kind depend-ing upon or determined by 'lot or chancewhether by the throwing or casting of dice,or the drawing of tickets, cards, lots, num-bers or figures, or by means of a wheel,or trained animal or otherwise howsoever.

Hon. A. tovekin: In a place.

1468 [COUNCIL.]

The MINIUSTER FOR EDUCATION: TheAct says that the chiance may be determinedin any way. It does not matter how thechance is dfetermined. It is a lottery and anoffence. On these grounds I say that theselling of tickets for a lottery is an offenice.

lion. A. Lovekia: In a place.The MVIUSTER. FOR EDUCATION: It

may hie held that a public street is a place.Hon. A. Lovekin: No!Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoomi: A street

would not be a place.The 'MINISTER FOR EDIUCATION: Mr.

Ardagh has said he did not think the buyingof tickets in a lottery was any worse thanbuying -harcs. There are two sets of peoplewhomlbuy shares. The difference between thetwo is and has for long been clearly recog-nised. There are people who buy shares forthe purpose of investing their money in en-terprises that they think will be beneficial tothe country and trill return profits to them-selves. There are others who buy out ofpure gamibling. These people are known onthe market as "stags."' They are, alwaysspoken of depreciatingly. They are gamb-lers. These are the classes of people who dealin shares. I am with the hion. member in hissuggestion that one of these classes is justas useless and] their gambling is just asreprehensible as in the case of theperson who invests in lotteries. The otherclass of investor is of a totally differ-ent calibre. It was with great interest Ilistened to M.Nr. Panton 's denunciation. of thegambling and cheating which have been goingon all the world over during the lost fewyears-particularly gambling in a nation 'scurrency. They call the counters marks andfrancs, but the counters are- really the livesof women and children. It is true, as thehon. member has said, that every hit whichthe millioraire adds to his fortune bythis gambling in the people's currency addsto the foodless days in the warrens of thepour. One hon. niemeber spoke of sellingwheat to Germany at Is. a bushel. Thepeople of Germany have to ay somethinglike ten guineas a bushel for this wheat,partly'because of the gambling which is tak-ingr place in the currecey of their country.Mr. Panton now wishes to legalise this, andfasten upon the commnnity this. mostpetent device for impoverishing the homes ofthe workers.

Hon. A. H. Panton: I wish to give thopoor man the same opportunity as the richMan.

The 'MINISTER FOR EDL'OATION: I amastonished that any member who representsthe Labour Party should advocate a prin-ciple of that kind. I have always under-stood that one thing the Labour Partyabhorred was that one man should becomerich at the expense of his fellows.

Hon. A. Lovekin: We are trying totighten it up.

The MINISTER FOR. EDUCATION:-Never mind about that. We are discussingthe Bill before the House, and not the

amendment that the hon, member intendsto miove if the House gives him the oppor-tunity. It is one of the strongest principlesof the Labouir Party that a man should notget rich at the expense of the rest of thecommunity. What do we find in these lot-tcriea except that one tun gets the prizeand the others get nothing! 'Mr, Pantonhas also referred to the inconsistency in re-gardi to the collection of taxation on gamb-ling. With a reat dleal that he -:y,. I agree,huit hie is wrong in suggestiiu that in thisState we allow the rich man *i dik certainthinigs in his club and punish the I

10tuamanfor doing the samne thing. That -,not thep'osition.

Hlon. A. H1. Panton: There is no. doubtabout that.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: See-lion 210 of the Criminal Code reads-

A person who (1) keeps for gain anyplace to which persons resort for the pur-pose of playing at any game of chance;or (2) Keeps any place which is kept orused for playing therein any game ofchance, or an y game of mixed chance and,skill and in which (a) A bank is kept byone or more of the players exclusively ofthe others; or (b) Any game is playedthe chances of which are nut alikefavourable to all the playe vrs, includingthe ban ker or other persons by whom thegame is managed, or against whom theother players stake, play or bet; is saidto keep a common gaming house.Hon. A. If. Pantort: Poker is not a game

of chance.The 'MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: No!

Poker is not a game of chan-ce. The hon.member can laugh. In making that state-mieat I am not going upon the decision ofa police magistrate. I do not speak con-tsemptuonsly of police magistrates, for .Ihave every respect for them. I am goingon the decision of the Full (Curt of Vie-tunra. A case occurred about three yearsago when the keeper of a licensed housewas convicted for permitting a game ofchance to he played on hi-i licensedpremises, that game being poker. Anappeal was beard before the Full Court of'Victoria and the Full Court upset the de-cision, and :found that poker was niot agamne of chance. One of the judges verysa;piently remarked that anyone -whothoughit it was a game of chanc and whoknew nothing about the game should pl aywith one who did know about it. Solong as a Chinaman plays gaines which donot come within the scope of Section 210,that is to say gamnes in which every personhas a fair and equal chance, he is -neverinterfered with. The Chiiiaman is onlyinterfered with when he is playing unfairgames, when lie is playing gaimes in whichevery person has not an equal chance;games in which the man running the jointi., simply robbing the Chinamen of theirhard earned wages. That is the only in-stance in which Chiniamen fire prosecuted.

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[26 OcTmun, 1921.] 16

Tlirt :ii-e inanv gais which they canl playand I o play, and( iii which they stiffer nointerference. If in any other Club in tilecity salnes such as are referredt to inl thatsetion were indulged ill, the police wouldeetanly lrosecuite.

T-on. .1. W. Kirwan: Is show-down pokera1 gamle of chance?

Tin ' MIN.\ISTER FOR EDUCAT[ON.\: Iamt oipposed1 to the Bill onl principle. Thatwould be sufficient ground for anyone to op-pose it, the ground that it is wrong in pria-ciple. Let nendbers argue about it as muchas they like; if it is wrong in princi pie weought to vote against it. It panders to thevery wvorst fault in humian nature. Now,as ever, love of aloney- is the root of allevil. We pander to the idea of thle mnanwho thinks hie can get rich quickly withlittle exertion to himiself , and we aredeveloping the worst traits in that mnuscharac-ter. At present, is 'Mr. Stewart haspoin11ted out, tlhere is a proposal before thlepeople of New South Wales-I do not thinkIit has yet taken thle shape of a Bill beforetheir Pan ianient-to rut, lotteies onl alarge scale. Thle Governmnent are evidentlya hit afraid of introducing it. There hias beena steorl of public protest in New South Walesand punbl ic opinion is against it, so they a.rehesitating about introducing thle Bill. Arewe going to give theml the lead?2 Our pro-posal is worse than theirs. Their proposalis to have lotteries for this one specificpuir po se. a anelY;, ait Endow mieat of 'Mothlerhood. We aire proposing to have lotteries foranything that we like.

Hon. A. H. Panton: It is to be at thediscretion of the Minister.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Weare going at great deal further than tileN\ew South Wales Goverinment hesitate todo. They hesitate to put up a lottery forthe endowvinenit of motherhood. Tint t wouldbe a State controlled lottery. We are goingto sanction lotteries mun by all and sundryfor anly worthy object. Who is to judgeas to the worthy object? The Bill saysthe -Minister shall judge. Sir EdwardWittenoons has very' properly pointed outthe invidious position in which thle 'Ministerwould find liimself. Why should thd '\ill-ister he nuide the judge of mnatters of thatkind?!

I-io. A. Lovekin: Cannot we alter that?Tim' \INISTER FOR EDUCAT ION :

if tle thing is right, let the people he thejudges. Let anyone conduct lotteries anid letthle people decide whether they will go infor those lotteries Or 'lot. Why wake tileMlinister the judge? Surely that is the besttest to apply 'to a thing of this sort. T do notthink there would be miany people who wouldsay that it is right to launch a lottery underthese circumustances, aod to let the peoplesay whether they would invest their money orno~t. If lion. nierabers apply that test, theywill agree it is lbad. It is not right that aMinister should be the judge as to whetheraIn obje~ct was a worthy one or ,,ot.

Hon. A. Lorekiti: Cannot we alter that?Holl. Sir Edward Wittenoomn: Surely a

Minister, who is in aji independent position,call judge such a question?

The MIISTER FOR EDUCATION:Why should lie be the judge? A Minister isnot a nientor of public motrals. The inatter iseither right or wrong. Why ask any Mfiniste'rto say wh'lat is right or what is wrong? Forit considerable period, J had the hornor tohold thle office of Colonial Secretary for thisState, and [ received countless applicationsli-on ipeople1 requtestin1g pC mu ssio a to run allsorts of lotteries, My reply was inlvariablythat the Act gave the Minister no power togrn t i such permnission. If I then hall thediscretion that this Bill proposes to give toa Minister, amid had to decide whether the obl-ject was worth.%' or tot, I would tare been in,a iost invidious position.

Halt. T. Moore: So 'you closed your eyes.and let this thing go onl

rThe MINISTR FOR EDUCATIONX: Whttis it that goes oil at the present tine? ThereaIre imo lotteries, as far as I know, that aregoitig oil. If lion. inrinbers go to bazaars orother functions, accotrding to Sir Edward Wit-teiloou, people besiege thein with tickets ofoil, sort or another. What lhappens when onegot's to bazaarus. One genterally goes w~ithI acertaini antottat of looney and pay' s it out asit icklY' as possible. it nine cases out Of 11l

onic tears ull the tickets purchased or putsI mcii in one 's packets. Thtere is very littleof the lottery in that sort of thing, aind, inally ease, only those people who deliberatelygo to bazaars are affected. It ii proposed bythis Bill that thle public shmallI be circularisedantd he imnvited to comte into the thing at everytilt-t. I admnit tltere are sweeps run at thepiresent titme, bitt' there is a very large per-centtage of this cltlnion-uty that has a pro.founmm regard for thle law mid if tlmey knowthe thinig is legal, they w-ill regard it asright . If it is illegal, they will regard it aswroug. So long as it remalins illegal, therea me thlousands of hioies in Western Aust ra-lia wh'lere tltis thtin g will he den ouineed aswrong. Legalise it stid tile idea spreads thlatit is right and it sapls the strength of theconintunity. We are told that it is necessaryto raise certait hir ge sumlls of loniey forcharitable purposes. Two or three nienibershavye stressed this point, particularly regard-inig the Kalgoorlie support for the Fresh AirLeague. It has been said thnt Kalgoorlieeanntot afford these contributions. Mr. Pantonwas ituore genieral in his reference and saidthat the public cannot afford these cotitribu-tions. Let ns argue this mnatter out logically.Ido not know the exact nount the Fresh

Air League require.Ho1. E. H. Harris: It is £600 per year.Thle 'MINTSTER FOR EDUCATION:

We are told that the coutmunity there cannuotafford to raise £600.

Hon. E. HI. Harris: They raised it eightweeks ago.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION:,It is proposed that they shall have a lottery

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1470 [COUNCIL.]

and, in order to make the lottery attractive,I take it that about half the muoney will haveto be devoted to prizes, so that they willreall have to raise, £1,200 and not £60. Itis said that they cannot afford to raise £600,but, make it a gamble and attractive to thepeople and the amount to be raised can bedoubled! We are, raked to allow people toinvest in the gamble, money that they cannoteffortl to risk and to an extcnt of double theamnount we are told they cannot now afford.They cannot afford £E600 but we are asked toinduce thein to put in £1,200. What will bethe effect of such a proposal ? flow will it af-fect the trailers and the legitimate businessof :eupole who bare to depend upon their ac-counts being 1paid in order to get their hing?Mr. Penton spoke of £9,000 which was neces-sary for the Children's Hospital.

Hon. A. H-. ['anton: I say the taxpayersshsouid pay it.

The MINISTER FOR EDUJCATION;We could get £9,000 by direct methods butby means of a lottery we would have to raise£18,000 in order to provide prizes. Does itnot come back to the same thing that if peoplecannot afford lo pay, we Merely offer an in-ducenient to,, louit up a considerably' greateramiount of money that they canniot afford,and money which must come out of theirhomes or out of the bills which will remainunpaidV Surely one of the worst featuresis that it tempts people to speculate moneythey cannot afford to risk. Another reasonwhy I ant opposedI to the Bill is that I thinkit is quite unintentionally a reflection on thepeople of Western Australia. No people inkthe world stood up to their responsibilitiesright through the war better than the peopleof Western Australia.

Hon. J1. Cornell: Not all of themi.The MI CISTRR FOR )EDU-CATION:

They are prepared to do it to-day. Referencewas made to the splendid work of the UglyMKen's Association and particular referencewas made to that grand work whichhas just been completed, namiely, thebuilding of the out-patients' ward atthe Children's Hfospital. I was presenton the dlay the foundation stone ofthat buildig was laid, and on that oeca-Sioni the people were told that enlough Moneyhad been raisedl for the building hut not suffi-cient. for the furnit-ire, and £6C00 was wanted.They did not start a lottery but mierely askedfor £E600 and they got £700 in half an hour.

Hon. T. Moore: They raised the money forthe building by tray of lotteries and so on.

The MNISTER FOR EDUCATION:Ve'ry little of that Money was raised boy wayof lotteries. They mnay have had raffles andefforts. of that description, but there were agood mnany who participated in those raffleswho did not care a rap whether they drewblanks or not.

Ron. Sir Edward Wittenooni; That sectionconstitute the same people who sebscribe toeverything.

Hon. A. Lorekin: That is so.

The AIFNISTER FOR EDUCATIO'N; A.few days after that foundation stone was laid,I was invited to open a war memorial hos-pital at Kellerberrin. There the people sub-scrihed more thani half the money required tobuild the hospital. When it was opened, thecommnittee furnished their balance sheet andsaid that they required £C300 more. They didnot conduct a lottery; they simply informedthe people that they wanted the mioney and themoney was furnished within an hour. Thatmoney was raised without lotteries or anyr-thing of the sort. The spirit of the peoplein Western Australia is right. It rings trueas it did right through the war. What hon.members now propose to do, is to stranglethat spirit. If this proposal be agreed to,what will happen? We shall, as is usualamong people, take the line of least resist-aoice and if people want to raise money fora hospital, it is the easiest way that will headopted. They will not go round askingpeople for subscriptions but will simplyorganise a lottery. Therefore, I say, hon.members wilt kill this fine spirit that existsin the people of Western Australia, whichspirit is as strong to-day as ever it was.

Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoom; Nothing ofthe sort. It would not work that way at all.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCKTION; Ithink it would.IHon. Sir Edward Wittenooni; That is your

opinion; it is not aty opinion.The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION : Mr.

Nicholson made 'reference to experiences whenhe was a member of the war council. I alsowas a member of that council and I opposed,as I do now, anything of the nature of alottery. The majority of the members of thecouncil at one time agreed to grant permlis-sion for the running of lotteries and I do notthink there was a single instance in whichthe lotteries were conducted entirely satisfac-torily. They were supervised by nien of highstanding in the community. I went to thetrouble of getting back one of the files ofwhich I had a particular recollection because1 remembered that in that case the war coun-cil ordered an audit of the books connectedwith, that particular lottery. The lottery wasone, which the war council had sanctioned andit was conducted under the authority of sonicof the leading mnen inl the (eonnnuitv. Thisis what the audit disclosed: Thevre were50,000 tickets at Is. each issued, repreieutinga total sum of E2,500. The cash received was£E850. The tickets returned unsold repre-seated £854 Jos.; the tickets entirely unac-counted for represented £1,295 10s.

Hon. A. Lovekin: That is what 1 want tostop.

Hon. Sir Edward Wittenionn Exactlyr.We want to regulate that.

The .MNISTER FOR EDUCATION: Ido not see how hon. members can stop ittinder the Bill if they sanction the holdingof a lottery.

Hon, Sir Edward Wittenoom: You couldnot hare given a better illustration.

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[26 Ocroa, 1921.) 17

Hon. J. WV. Kirwan: Hear, hear!I Thatis a fact.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATIONThis happened during war time when the warcouncil, wrongly I think, thought methods ofthis kind were justified in the raising ofmoney, but their experience was that theselotteries were entirely unsatisfactory. I donot think any other result will be achievedunder the Dill.

Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoom: You, arewrong every time.

The M1INISTER FOB. EDUCATION: [fa lottery is sanctioned and the people aregiven tickets, they will go about selling themand a lot of the tickets will be unaccountedfor. That was the experience of the warcouncil when lotteries were not conducted byevery Tonm, Dick or Harry, but by men ofrepute. The wvar council were careful in see-ing that only people of repute were grantedpermission to supervise the conducting oflotteries. From the experience of lotteriesconducted by such people, the war councildecided they would not permit any to be eon-flucted in the future.

Hon. A. Loveltin: Give us a chance to stopthat sort of thing.

The 'MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Itis stopped.

Hon. E. H. Harris: It is not stopped.The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION

Murder is not stopped; housebreaking is notstopped; thieving is not stopped. It will notstop these things if we legallise them. Theyare illegal but they go on. Lotteries orsweeps are illegal now and the people whocarry them on dto so with a certain amountof risk.

Ron. J. AV. Kirwan: Is not the carrying onof these things having the effect of bringingthe law into contempt?

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: No.I believe they are being carried on to agreater extent than they should be and thegeneral laxity throughout the war period maybe responsible for that Sort of thing growingup. .[ w~ould be glad to see them done awaywith altogether. If Mr. Lovekin were not soeager to get the third portion of his amend-ment through the House, and if his objectwere merely to stop this thing, I would bewith him.

Hon. .1. Duffel]: That is right.The MIUNISTER FOR EDUCAT[ON: I

do not know that there is anything furtherto say. We hear a good deal about thegambling spirit of Australia. There is amplescope for the exercise of that gambling spiritwvithout passing the Bill. We are told thatlife is a gamble. That may be so but T be-lieve that "'aan can half control his doom''anti if we follow the light and do right, weshall reject the measure on the simple prin-ciple that the thing is wrong.

Hon. .1. CORNELL (South) [8.12]: 1 harelistened attentively and with interest to thespeech delivered -by the Leader of the Housealthough it was delivered in his eapacity as

a. private mkenmber. I have never heard himto worse advantage. In fact, he remindedme very much of the preacher who saw hiscongregation fast disappearing. He re-minded me very much, too, of a former occa-sion on which he was equally ineffective.His speech carried my memory hack to thetime when I heard the Leader of the Houseput up such another specious address. 'Thatwvas on the occasion when he introduced aBill to impose a tax on betting, after, as aprivate member, hie had opposed a motion toappoint a select conmnittee to inquire intothe curtailment of horse racing. When heopposed the appointment of a select commit-tee, he declared that if the law was adminis-tered as it stood, there was no need for anysuch investigation. As soon as he assumedhis Ministerial Chair he brought in a Bill totax betting. The Act as it stands to-dayreally means that lotteries are illegal in anyshape or form, and the Minister cannot givehis consent to any person to conduct a lot-tery. I well remember when Mr. Drew wasColonial Secretary we were running an EightH ours' demonstration on the goldfields andin connection with it an art nnion. Mr. Drewwas asked for permission to run the artunion and he replied, ''Do not ask me. Ifyou do I -hall have to say no. The law as itstands prohibits it.'' The Bill proposes toalter the law and allow lotteries to be con-ducted with the sanction of the Ministerunder certain conditions. Were the law astit stands administered I would oppose themeasure. It is mere claptrap and sophistryto say that the law is or ever has been ad-ministered as it was intended to be. Thesoldiers whose chief recreation, even in theface of the gravest danger, was ''two-up,''through their league thought that the run-ning of a lottery would be a fair means 'ofaugmenting their funds, especially as otherpeople were doing the same thing. They ranone sweep and made a profit of some £800.The Prenmier condemned this meanis of raisingmoney and said it would have to ceame. An-

other sweep was arranged. When I returnedfrom a conference in the Eastern States, thesecretory of the league met me at the stationand said that the Criminal Investigation De-partment were going to put him inside if thestweep, was not stopped. I was asked to seethe Commissioner of Police regarding it. Idid so. The Commissioner said he had in-structions. from the Government to stop allsweeps. The arch-fiend ou that occasion, ason many occasions, was J. O'Neill. He hasnot a very good reputation and had noauthentic body behind him. I said to theCommissioner, ''You cannot stop the re-returned soldiers' sweep any more than youcan stop the sweep being run by the Aus-tralian Labour Party.'' I suggested allow-ing these two bodies to continue their sweepsand then to close down on all of them. TheReturned Soldiers' League have been givencredit by the Leader of the House for pre-serving law and order. They obeyed the lawand closed their sweep down, but the Corn-

1471

147 [COUNCIL.]

missioner did not honour the bond. I couldtake him to a dozen shops in Perth wheresweep tickets are being sold. There arepeople hawking 50,000 sweep tickets aroundthe town to-day. The returned soldiersobeyed the comlpact, and it was only reason-able to expect that the bond would be lion-ouredt by thle police and( that all other sweepswould be stopped. I behieve the ReturnedSoldiers' League is thle wily institution whichobeyed the law and refrained from goingfurther. The Fresh Air League was runninga sweepl and was practically Stopped, hutsweeps are being run just the same11 as Whenthe ultimatum was issued to the returned soll-iliers, and it is wucre sophistry to Say that thelaw is being administered. It is not beingadministered ; it never has been anid is neverlikely to be administered according to thestrict letter. With such experience I main-taiii that the law should be administered, re-pealed, or amended. This is anl amendmnentto permit what has been (lone uinder the lapto be done honestly and openly andl understricter supervision. May T Cite b3y way ofillustration another matter affecting the gold-fields and Suday sport.

Thle PRESID)ENT: I think the hon. mein-her is getting rather outside the scolie of theBill.

lion. .1. CORNELL: I merely wishied toshlow by way of illustration hkow thle gold-fields are penalised to the extent of baring togive £Z100 to the Children's Hospital in Orderthat football may be playedl on Sunday, a('barge which is imposed onl no other sectionof the community. The Leadler of thle Househas saiil that a measure of this kind is likelyto corrupt public morals and ruin our child-yen. He said one of the reasons why M1r.Lovekin desired that children, under eigtshould not attend school was that they mightsell lottery tickets in the streets. It was notfair of the Minister to make that remanrk.After all morality is a. matter of degree. Toaiy knowledge during the last 12 years lot-teries have been legailised in Taismianiat underthe State law. InI the little bit of Soldlier-lug I did, I associated with manny Tasmaniai,and their Standard of morality was as goodasa iy ~onle'S.

lion. A. It. I'anton: They could not spit,a double-header.

Holi. Y1. CORNELL: I f wo look up thestatistics of Tasmania where sep rlegalisedi, we find that thle calendlar of crimieconlpare9 favrourably with ours. I had thehonour of being one of 40) who were run ininl Boulder for playing an illegal game, andtherefore I feel qualified to speak oil thisquestion. I survived that experience andlived to lie a. representative in Parliament.It did not corrupt my morals. It is. a bigstretch of imiagination to say that this willruin the children. Reference has been madeto parental control. As a father I say thatwhen my children reach the age when I can-not control them, well-I do not enivy otherpeople tile job; a lot of busyhodii's of womanwho nlever bore a c-hild g6 about tell-

ing Mothers how their children should liebrought up. We have had reference to theSheaf of corrcspandem-e which has reachedl

nenibeis froni all sources. I veunre to saythat certain organisni ions aind individlualshave written 'to me onl this qLuestion whohave never written me before, and are notlikely to lo so again. Therefore, I ci dis-mniss them. Reference has been made to thepositionis the 'y 01-copy. There is oneV loiz scr-tion of the comninunity- who have niniclerotest. 'Mr. Pantons Spioke of a clergyman

who I place sevondl to lione iii this countryfor breadth of vision and toleration. I referto Archdeacon ('olliek. No nian is nimore titte,1

or better' qualified to .judge the tine 1 'sternAustralian senitinient and tie standard1 ofmorality than lie. There is not a momrc lirad-indied iian in the State.

H-on. .1. 'IN. I~irwan : Or' a truei' Clitiaii.

Hon. F. COR'NELL: Quite so. Tnt giveain idea of his Christianity, hie was once nitiklethe recipient of a large lresentition In- hisfriends and admirers in toolgardie in oilerthat lie umight enjoy a holiday. When lie ar-rived at the Coolgai-die station to leave onlhis holiday, lie had not Suifficient to pa' hisfame, and he (lid not take thle hlfidaY.put Arehirleason Colliek befoie all thost' hIlbodies who have heeii writing to tine. M' ir.Ardagh,' in moving the second reading. ex-dlamned the objets sought to be attained bythe Bill. There have been two organisationsiii Boulder, the Benevolent Soecty' mid theFresh Air Leaguie. Anyone who knows4 theobjects of the League is aware that, hut forits :i etir ities, Ii1111(1 reds Of childrten who inavehand thle pleasure of a trill to Bulablil a ndseen the sea for the firs~t timue, would neverhave been able to take suchi n trip. I -,ivc-credit to the goldfields people that itiutas beena cardiial principle with theni for 11mg' laqtquarter of :t century, at an 'y iate, to tlw:tvsgive sonice return when the 'vset out to 111i9e11moey. There are iicnbers vho uni' v tile(ioldfields parliamniitarians ilasiLeli a, thevyare mnever canvassed by cadgers for donationsfor cricket clubs, etc. But the goldfiteld- ;irenot what they wtere. Work is not as pleiiti-f .ul as it was, and the desime of thll letlplerunning the Fresh Air League is thiat thechildren sRlall nlot S~iffel- as a result oft thledepressioit Mr. Harris stated. that tlheAhart' ailready thme amount of money requireditis year. They got thle mnoney in an illegalway' byvconiducting a lottery. If they c.anl gc~tdouble the "mniot it wvill be v'ery a~i-It bet-ter fur the children. There is thle hviecol'utinstitution, the work of which will conmparemore than faivourably with that of any othersimiilar institution in the State. ion. muma-bers who have been there will know thatScarcely a week goes by without one or twodirect appeals in the direction of assistingSoni ufortuniate. The originator Of the Billwas prompted by thev best of motives. TheMinister declared that to pass this legislationwould be a reflection onl the people (if thtState. Similar legislation, though in a. largerdegree, exists in Tasinia. Tasmiti cattle

1472

(26 OcToasa 1921.)

tirt af the war ats Nvetl1 as this country.Tlie. itore, F fail to see how, if the Billi'a'-". it "all have, Bay effect in the directionshig-seetefl by thle MNinister. The "Minister alsorete'rretl to the lotteries run by the WarCouncil. I had the honour of attendingRollie Meetings of the War Council and ever-oiw, Inows that if' the War Council had( beenoi ki'-iness body, tile Repatriation Depart-nrent would never have experienced the diffi*enlties which it had to contend with. TheWar Council wvas anl honorary hodly. With1cgard to thle castigation of parliamentariansby the mayor of Perth--

lion. A. If. Panton : Surely that dlid not

liiin. .1. CORNELL: Mosquitoes never lo.If tli, Aouse took the mayor of Perth ser-ion-lV I antl uinder the impression that hiewonlfi ibe indicted under the ParliamnentaryvIPrivileges Act, ottO would be broulght beforethe Biar of tite House. Probably that wans%ih-it the macor was utter. I' call only likenhitu andl his tirade of abuse and his outbreakonl luritv, to that hiumorous character"IL] ha bud Bronson ' inl tile "'Belle of NewYork" J1ronson was the lender of the anti-cigart-tte and social purity brigade and usedtlt-,e words-

M) conrse, you canl never be like us, but14 4i like aS v%,on are able to be.

Inl Fji own estilltationl 110 miember of Parlia.nwlett k able to do as utLulII good as hiethintl:; he is able to do. The mayoroif Perth has seen fit to castigate mecm-ber-. of Parlianment. lie ill a senseowe, oniething to mnetbers of Parliament,hccause I consider that the title of whielt hieJi. T111Ime proud possessor would net-er havegiut- Iis war but for responsible M1inistersof the Crown, and it ill bectnes the may ' or-if lie iS ?Lot a helter! knight lie ought tobc-to attack parlitimcntarians in regard tothi, tteasure in the matnner hie has done.Ei-Ilen tly tlirough responsible -Miniisters-recognition was Mamde of his services, butini my opinion posterity will recognise hiamby huildiztg to his mlemnory a mionument ,anti if ever they do it will take the I orniof a putblic urinal.

The PRESIDENT: Order! The hion. mecm-her must not make aL remark of that kind.I demand its withdrawal.

I-on. .1. CORNELL: Under what StandingOrder?

The PRESIDENT : It was unbeconmingla ngua ge.

Hlon. J1. CORNELL: Tit what. degree?Theo PRESIDENT: The hion. member has

heard] what I said. Is lie going to with-d rawI

Hon. J. CORNELL: No, I will not with-draw.

Thte PRESIDENT: Then I must reporthinito1 the House. I will ask the Leader ofthe House to recognise thle matter.

The MIN ESTER FOR EDUTCATIO'N: Iappeal to thle lion. member to withdraw theremiarks hie muade. We all k:now the lion.member. We all respect him and he must

recognise thatt hie himself would not like aremark of that sort to be made in thisF-ouse. I appeal to him to withdraw it.

Hou. .1. CORNELL: .In deference to thewish of the House and to you, Mr. Presi-lent, I withdraw time retmark. I do notknow that I can say mtuch miore onl the Bill.1 wish to add in conclusion that I will notvote if the Bill goes to a division. M1%colleagute, 'Mr. Dodd, who cannot he htereto-iight, has seen fit to disagree witht myviews on this quteation, and hie has askiedtinc to afford Itin thle privilege of a pair. Ihave consented to do so. I support thlesecond reading and for the reason I havegiven will refrain from voting.

H-on, A. J. H. SAW (Metropolitan-Suburban) [8.371I: t1 will not attemtpt todiscuss this proposal front the high stand-po0int Of Morality Whichla MVcolleagu1e onlay right has been able to pursue. Nor dloI propose to discuss it front the standardadopted by Mr. Panton. But T link afraidflat no maitter from what point of view oneapproaeltes this subject, one is bound toland in a iass of inconsistencies. I wouldnot like to record a silent vote oil thismeasure because I think it is due to nn'electors to explain the position which Itake uip. I wont also, while reveealing the-motives which will influence me in record-ing a vote to, if possible, absolve myselfftotn any charge of Ityproerisy, for I ap-pr-oach this question fromt the middle stand-peint. I ant wandering in the middle mists.I cannot see that the making of a wager isany heinous offence, but at the same tinmeone has to realise that gamnbling undoubt-edly does Icail to many evils. 'My attitudeonl the subject of gambling is somewhatsimilar to thle attitude T take up onl theliquor quest ion. Gambling does undoubt-edly bring mnany nien to rulin. I myselfhave had niany friends-I will not sayintimate friends-but certainly well knownacquaintances Who have unlfortuately beenbrought to ruin and suicide through thisnmethod. Consequently it behoves theHouse, when it is nshced to legalise anyform of gambling, to give the nmatter mostserious consideration. Personally, I do notregard thle taking of a ticket in at sweep asany crimte against morality, although Iknow many people are not of that Opinion.I inust confess to the House that I am re-garded as an extremely lucky man when asweep is drawn. Consequently it would illbecome me to oppose the Bill front what Ishould call the higher motives, I askedmiyself this question. Is the Bill likely toincrease or diminish ganmbling? I aun forcedto the conclusion that it will increase ratherthan diminish gambling. Reference hasbeen Made to various evils which are con-ntected with the present systems in whichgamlbling is not legalised but in which, insonic of those formns ait any rate, it istacitly tolerated, and I do not see how it

1474 COUNCIL]1

the Bill passes, those evils are going to beminimised in the least degree. We couldnot have had a better example than thatquoted by the Leader of the House withreference to the lotteries which tank placeurnder the auspices of the War Council. Iwas on the War Council for a time and Xknow it was the desire of that body thatthese lotteries should-only be allowed whenpeople conducting them were above re-proach, and when the objects which thoselotteries sought to attain were of the high-est nature. In spite of that fact we havethe confession of members who belonged tothe War Council that the lotteries resultedin rave abuse. I appeal to the charities inthis way, that so far ns I can sec there is nomore expensive method of makiag moneytitan by conducting lotteries. The expensesconnected with lotteries are great, andtliere are all kinds of leakages, so that theresultant good to the charities is consider-ably minimised. I am afraid also 'hatlotteries if permitted would dry up someof the springs-of charity. There are manypeople in this town who liberally supportthe charities, and in spite of what has beensaid by hon. members, I deny entirely thatthe major number of those people areamongst the class 'who have been alluded toas the sporting section of the community. Ido not deny that some notable menm-hers of the sporting class have doneextremely valuable work nnd have 'seta very high standard indeed, but there is agreat mass belonging to the sporting corn-mnunity who, to my knowledge, do practi-cally nothing, and if the bon. member willlook through the charity lists in Perth, hewill see that they are for the greater partsupported by the section of the communitywho would undoubtedly deny the title of"sports.'' I am talking of the rcgular sub-scribers, who year in and year out givedonations direct. I ant connected with agood many of these things and have seentheir lists. I am glad that you. 31r. Presi-

-dent, at the outset directed the attentionof members to the fact that it would notbe in order to make any reference to theamendment. Ia stating my intention ofopposing the Bill, the only reference I needmake to the amendment is that "sufficientfor the dlay is the evil thereof."

Eon. F. A. BACTLTN (West) (9.471: Ifostmembers who have spoken against the incas-ut-c have referred to the sheaf of letters re-ceived since this Bill left another place.Early in the evening 'Mr. Sanderson read outto us the names of a number of organisa-tions front which protests had reached him.I, with other members, received similar let-ters, and carefully considered them. But Idid notice this striking fact, that no lettersof protest came from the organisations whichare and have been actively engaged in rais-Lug money for charitable purposes in thisState. One mint ponder as to why this isthus, 9o far as can be ascertained, those

organiksationis are anxious that the Bill shouldreceive Parliamentary sanction. They havehad practical experience in the raising offunds, and they recognise that without meansof this kind it is almost impossible to main-tain charitable institutions. A questionablenote was struck during the debate, it beingasserted that by legalising lotteries we wouldaffect the mural stamina of the people. Letme say right here that I do not agree withthat view. If the v-iew were well founded,one would have to maintain that because Tas-mania has legalised lotteries and WesternAustralia has not, so far, the Tasmanianpeople are less moral than the people of thisState. I do not think any Western Australianwould in his sane senses make such an alle-gation against the Tasmanian people. Inorder to arrive at a mature decision, weshould endeavour to ascertain what has beenthe experience of countries which have ac-cepted legislation of this nature. For thetime being, we cannot know exactly Whateffect the passing of the Bill wouild have uponthe moral tone of our community. When all issaid and dlone, our arguments are built uip onmere stippositious. The only guide we canget is how this legislation has affected otherpeople. Apart from Tasumania, there areother countries where lotteries are legalised;and from those countries we have not heardof any baneful effects upon the community.From the aspect of parental control, it hasbeen said, by the Lender of the House amongothers, that the passing of the Bill would havea ver-y serious effect on the children of thecommunity. Therefore the Lender of theHouse, as Minister for Education, declares hemust oppose the Bill. But do we really recog-nise where it is children get their first lessonsin garnblingl I suppose lion. members wouldlaugh if I suggested that children should bestopped from playing marbles, on the groundthat in playing marbles a boy gets his firstIes~un in gambling.

Members: 'Marbles arc, a game of skill.lion. F. A. BAGLIN: Boys play umarhieq

su as to "'skin'' the other fellow and get allhis, marbles. Again, we hear no obJet-tion toshopkeepers selling surprise packets, whichchildren arc induced to buy for a penny ortwopenee in the hope of getting somethingworth considerably more. I believe thatunder the Criminal Code it is not illegalto sell lottery tickets, but that the thingbecomes illegal immediately anybody holds9 adrawing. However, I elaim that this Billwill c-n sidlerably improve the position. It i.-just as well to see things as they aire, and notas4 they ou mght to be. We know that sweeptickets are being sold in this country. Thereis no protes-t against Tattersall 's swveeps%, orsole of Tattersall's sweep tickets in WesternAustralia. Then there is the "Golden Cas-kect,'' which takes a good deal of money outof this State. To he consistent, We 4sho01ldstop all sweeps. If we are not prepared tostop them all, we should provide some legis-lative control. Tf fail to see that any harmcan result from giving the necessary power

1474

(26 OCTanE;, 1921.] 17

to the Mlinister. The Leader of the Housesaid to-night that he did not think any MXinis-ter should be placed in the invidious positionwhich this Bill would create. On the otherband, in connection with the Wheat Market-ing Bill th 'e hon. gentleman pleaded for re-sponsibility for the Minister, and strenuouslyresisted the replacing of the word ''may''by ''hl.'Sweeps and lotteries are beingconducted here to-day, but if this Bill passesa person desirous of holding a lottery wouldfirst have to obtain the necessary permissionfrom the Minister, and the Mfinister wouldhave the right to refuse such permission. Isupport the Bill.

Hon. 2. H. HARRIS (North-East) [8.55]:1 say candidly that I am not in favour of thisproposal to amnid the Criminal Code. Notthat I object to a few more sweeps, or be-lieve that they would break down the moraleof the community; but I think the Bill isquite unnecessary and unwarranted. The or-ganisations appealing for assistance have, forthe mast part, been able to attain their ob-ject iii the past, and have been ranted per-mission to conduct sweeps for charitable pur-poses. Now that it is sought to extend thesystem of permissive sweeps to any worthyobject, V must enter my protest. The Billoriginally emanated from a gentleman whorepresents in another place the district whichI have the honour to represent here. It or-iginated from police objection to a sweepbeing conducted in aid of the Fresh AirLeague, That sweep was conducted, not-withstanding the opposition of the police, assimilar sweeps have been conducted in yearspast. A move was made, certainly in thecause of sweet charity; and I ventnre tosay that every member would support sucha move. But when the word "charitable''is replaced by the word "worthy,'' I mustobject, because the latter word is too com-prehensive.

Hon. A. H. Panton: You prefer the word'charitable"II?

Hon. E. H. HARRIS: I prefer such aword as ''philanthropic'' or ''benevolent"I take tip an attitude of opposition to theBill for very good reasons, because of whatI have seen in the past in connection withthe conduct-of many sweeps. Some of thosesweeps were criticised inl the Press becausethe whole of the butts had not been bandedin-the inference being that some of themoney raised for a certain purpose had notreached its destination.

Hlon. A. H. Fentonk: That is the inference?Hon. E. H. HEARRIS: The inference, yes;

and the proof I have here, in the form' of ahook of butts of tickets in an art union con-dueteui during 1920. The names are writtenthere of persons who bought tickets. Somesix weeks after the drawiog had taken place,I had this book mailed to me, under regis-tered cover, from Meekatharra. The publicPress attacked the proposition, pointing outthat the money had not been applied to thepurpose for which it had been obtained.

Hon. A. HE. Panton:. What happened?Hon, E. H. HARR-IS: Approximately £700

was raised by the conduct of this illegalsweep.

Hon. A. H. Panton: It was not illegal.Hon, E. H. HARRIS: There was £ 350

odd devoted to the A.W.U., ostensibly forpolitical purposes.

Hon. A. H. Panton:, That is right. Nowwe are getting it.'

Hon. E, H. HARRIS: The other half wasdevoted to the Trades Hall.

Hon. A. H. Panton: That is worthy ofyou. Why do you not say those things out-sideI -

Hlon. E. H. HARRIS: I have here a bal-ance sheet indicating that half of the sweepmoney had been devoted to each of those twopurposes.

Hon1. A. HT. Panton: Would you care tomake those charges outeidet

Hon. E. H. HARRIS: I had not intendedto make any reference in this direction what-soever. But the hon. member interjected,and I have given hinm his change. As be sawfit to take the matter so far, I went further.

Hlon. A. HE. F'anton:- You can go as far asyou like.

Hon. E. H. HARRIS: I will go furtherstill, and read a copy of a circular handedto mec in K~algoorlie last wreek-

Australian Labour Party. Eastern G old-fields District Council. Office, Trades Hall,Porter-street, ]Kalgoorlie, 'W.A., Septem-ber, 1921. Dear comrade, Our big con-sultation onl the Melbourne Cup, tickets inwhich were forwarded you. some time ago,is now being actively Puished throughout theCommonwealth and New Zealand. Threehundred and forty prizes, provided for inthis attractively planned consultationranging from £1,600 to £5, and proportion-ately, thin sweep, which is designed for50,000 subscribers at 29. 6d., offers a biggerprize programme than Tattersall's s.ticket consultations, which cost subscribers6s. Details of the prizes are set out onthe tickets, and offer solid inducement bothto subscribers and sellers of tickets to en-ergetically push the sale of tickets in thisenterprise, which offers such splendid op-portunity of substantial benefit to purchas-era. Counting upon your active interest

-and cordial assistance to make this consul-tation the outstanding success its purposewarrants, and relying upon you to promptlynotify me whether you could dispose offurther tickets. Tear covers off books ofsold tickets, enclose remittance and be sureyou attach sufficient postage to returns.Sincerely yonrs, Frank G. Worthy.

This is a sweep being conducted at the pres-ent moment through the post offices of theCommonwealth, and my friend opposite couldprobably give us some valuable informationas to the methods adopted to get the ticketsscat to other parts of Australia andi NewZealand. The money derived from sweeps ofthis nature would ostensibly be used forpolitical purposes. This may be said to be

1475

[COUNCIL.]

l1.k - ' Worthy object, to send ineinbers re-j'rewaeting a certaiin se,-tioil of tile commniiiiityhere to this, or to sonic other Australian Par-lia ruut. t ask lien. members, would they

w thle ins~ert ion of the word "w ~orthy"inl Thle Criminal Code if they thought tluey'xver4- talns going to putt a weapon into thleliaitd- of any political party which mightilnw tlnu-e funds for political purposes? I didinot -itend to dwell upon that point but fortiI. iiiujection of my honourable friend.

]I'.)I. A. It. Pantdn): Then yon brought nallthat !kiiff here expecting the interjectioa9

Mmo, E, R, HARRIS: I have had] it herefur orii days. On the goldIields anit in theiitivt I repreent, many mneetings haveIeeti livId antd protests lodged f ron

vaijs organlisations. I do niot in-'tet-I' to read tile whole o f them].I li a I i-niilmy own district )3 resolutionsiii oppor;itioni to the Bill and one endorsingthe pripusal, thle bitter conveying apiprovalo'~.:*.h for charitable andi benevolent pur-

I *si -. The organisations which ]lave enteredthi irotests are those whichi have the xvel-fitr. of the t-oinmuity at heart, as has also11t MW" orgnisationl which has sent approval.As thevY had expressed their approval aiii dis-lqi~ila l'y resolutions forwarded to ilc, I1

tlrou~li it m~y dutty to appris4e nieiikbers of th efiits ats set ot. The section which itis nw sought to amiend lprovidet; forfor :1wv giving of the Colonial Secretary 'scoiiset-i. The niere fact of an Organisation,or an individual, having consent fromn theColonial Secretar , leaves inl tim mind of the1411kh a belief that there is somne control overthle oranuisatioii conducting the sweep or artunion. If any realI control were, providled, orif it Niere preseriil that an au1dited balancesheet and statemntit of receipts and expendi-tiirp shoudl be producedl, suich as is suibiittedto tin' entertainmuent tax dlepartmienit after ati-tliority has been given, it would serve to pre-venit the organisations andl those runniuthen frontL Using a large proportioni of theihotiex for uinwarranted purposes. If thep1 0ojo," iendruent to the Criminal ('ode isp~assed' in its priesenit form, we- shall probably1m:v,' professionl prom~oters springing tipwrIo. %%ith a knowledge of running sweeps, wvillleonte subl-agents for various printing Andpliblising companies and wVill uitilise thleanithonitv obtained f ront the 'Ministe~rto roniluct sweeps and prac-tically to

ia- a living Out of it for them-silvitQ. That is a phase of it which I.strongly lirotest against. In view, however,of The. facet that liy colleague who moved] thesecoail rending in this House clearly indi-eated-s that Ilie would accept the proposedamn-luzemit outlined by 'Mr. Lovekia, T willvist' for the second reading, with a view to

liv..the Bill anmended in Committee.

lhqi.. T. AMORF (Central) [9.8]. 1 canl-nt -a-t a silent vote, notwithstanding thatso urnv-h ,round has been already travrsed.Al1naV- if ouir charitable instituitions are being4-9-' rw on by these very meant to-dlay. The

ita ri tv vote previously provided by the ti1or-erment hans been largely cut out, and so thevarious institutions have to find money inother' ways. Se'einlg that the Governuient harenot fandm any alternative meius of p.rovidingmoney for those institutions, [ do0 not see whythe tioverumnent should oppose a measure suchas this. Gambling takes a very wide range.'Many apptrove and many disapprove of it.Rig indws and small mindis have been at workdliSCUSsing this Measure, the smallest of alllfig that of the bon. inemulmer who has justsat dowit.

The PhRESID ENT : The hon. meniber mustnot east reflections onl another lion. menher.

Hori. T. 'MOORF]: T a"' sorry, but the hon,muetaber raisled what is to my ind a verysmall matter indeed. He brought here a bookwhichl lie purported to show hiad been miis-used by some Organisation oii thle goldfields.

Ron. R.' ff. Harris: ft was quoted inl thepublic Press and never denied.

Hon. T. M-NOORE: It is remarkable that,instead of those persons sending this book tothe local police, they preferred to scud it totheir p~inipJ in Knlgoorlie.

Thle PRE-,SIDENT: To whom is the bon.tueniher alluding?

How. T. MOO0RE: To thle hon. member whohans just sat dlowin.

Trme PIRiSI II hNT: Then lie must With-drall thlat at once!

lion. T. ArOORhi: I ain sorry-The PRESIDENT: The ho0n. memiber must

Withdraw at once!bito. T. -MOORE: I do nithidraw, hbnt whent

We id men briniging Smasll iattors suCh as&that, what are we to think? The tender ofthle Hloise introducied a matter of a like nix-ttil-c. He p)ointe out that thme leading Menlof this State, those who Were oni the wvarcouncil, lied also run u 8weep in thle SameWay.

lion. .T. Nicholson: lIe diid not..Hon. T. 'MOORE: He said they gave per-

mission to tile leading incmi ill thle State tomuL a swveep, with the saine results.

Hon. Ei. H1. Harris: le said[ it was iinsatis-factory.

H1on. T. 'MOORE: fuisatisfactory in thesamne degree ais that introduced iii a similarWay by the lion1. mecmber just now.

Hom. J. Nicholson: The Leader of theHouise said that the consent of the war coun-cii was given to certain nienl, soie Of whomnw-ere leadimng mnii in the State, to conduact alottery. He did not say "'tile leading mcmli.

Homi. A. IT. Panton: A quiest ion of dhe-gree.

Hion. T. MOORE: Thle Minister dealt Withthings ivhielm we know do arise. Noi mnatterwith what intention we set out to do a cer-tain thing, some individuals are not abovesuspicion. ',;mail things suggest thermelivs.I know it happens, no mnatter how Well con-dlue ted the enterprise may he. I know thatthe Leader of the HTomtse sail, ''sonic of thleleadling men.'" I take it that perhaps themaiyor of the city, who I feel I cannot allow

0 [26 OCTOBER, 1921.]

to go uchalleiiged onl the score that Ie hasmnade derogatory rernrks concerning memnhersof rarliamlerit-erra~slhe was on the warcounc il.

Honl. J1. Nicholson: Ile was not.Ron. T. MOORE: Well, I was not here.

1 was just surmnising.HOD. J1. Nicholson: Onl that occasio-The PRESIDENT: I doa not think there

is need for this; controversy to go any further.

Hon. T. MOORE: The mayor thought fitto rise before an naudience in Perth and in-dolge in lanutage certainly not fit for- theirayor of Plerth to use. I Iloilo the citizenswill take anl early opportunity to remiove theman who makes such statemencts regardlingmen who legislate for the country, Just seebow this mil indulges iii gambling.

The 1'RESIDiENT: I Will ask thre lion.nint.er to couture himiself to a discussion,of the Bill. H~e is4 at prweeit eriticisiag thecriticism of a public manl, which his nothingto do with this House.

Hfon. T. MOORE: [ Will have to be dilreeteilb v you, but I ilust remark t~at 'evOthermember haq hand fuill lenicrutv on. tHs point.

The PRErI l)EN'l: And it has led to soniever v bad results.

Hion. T. MM) R1E: I hrt 'u &-ai xhi thequestion of gamblhing as T find it, whetherbig or s all, i to bring my Views before,the House I wanit to give this illustration: Ido not know whetiher thme manyor of Pert]:owes his gamiblinig spirit to a smnall lottery%ticket prcrhasedl 41) or 50 years ago, but inhi~s gambling rarniffl-ations a Fire insurancec~ompany bet hiur E000011 to "L Ei5 that hislrusimcss p~rniise would not lie burnt down.Aol] the maynr '%-iro. 1 do not suggest for onemnoment that Ike rode thme horse that won, lbnth..- referred to politicians as riai'g-

The PR£1I :'lire hon. ruciahe nurdtnot r .:rsist wvitir tha t.

Itnn. W. 'MOORE: All righlt. I want hl.ir-bers4 to realise that gambling, whether

it hie faught e:m r'*' inl our lives or not, makesveriy little itltr.,'ue to the average 'Austra-lian. So me gaal ad sonic dco not. Wh iilieu. inurliers havye taken up thre question asit affects the children of thec St-ite, 1 amsurriid at tire tone adopted hi- the Leaderof the Hlouse, who is supposed boy Mr. Sarn-der'on to lbe able to evaile a1 qnVestionl betterthan any* one vlsi'. lle'rrrail:' tire r 'mark thatchildren Ibelowv eight rears of age, if they wereir-i'vivr'l ef the right' to go to ,'dmooh. mi-ftgco nu~t helling lotter-1- tiekr te. One, can im-agilie that lte Minister had not a very gooltirgitinit to use rignst tis Tniastire irhelrhie could make use of this arreuiet.t I wonl Iprrefer that this form of raising mney sihoilInot he used at all. It cost,; a lot of m~ianor t.ibuy ' tickets; Ever.- mnember of theHorhasg had to do that. S'eeingr that we have noother mrethod, however, by whbich we can carryoln or charitable institutions, it is poss!ile'that we may have to adopt this system. Therois one bodly ins particular which requires as-

sistance, and that is the body onl thre gold-fields which sends dhildren to the coast ce-eryyear. I only wish that their work could beextended. 'No one would suggest that becausecertain other things have crept in at dif-ferent times these particular organisations.6hould not be assisted. Gambling is rife irtour midst to-day, and tickets are being soldeverywhrere. We call hardly increase the ex-Il-at to which gambling is indulged in, butwe can possibly curtail it. Onl many occa-sions on thre charity days I have seen all sortsof individuals armred writh collection boxes.These are ordinary bores with at paper covermisted oi them, and with a hole in the top-[ do not kirow whether the money that weput into these, boxes ever reaches the objectthalt we are desirous of assisting. That sortof thing should be stopped. Tf the Ministeris-sues thre right for these lotteries to be heldand they are coadricteil by reputable per-son4, we shall know that thie mioney reachesthe object for which it is irtended. It wouldbe much better to put down th 'ose evils thatare rarumnut in the comirnity to-day.. Sup-plose wve allowed the drink traffic to be con-dumted in the same way! So long as tire drinktraffic is controlled it is all right, but inthe hack country there is the worst kindof grog sold uinder the worst possible con-ditions. If control is proper in the case ofdrink. surely, it is proper in the case ofgambling. I suppose we 'shall nrever makecIun or vwomen abstain from that sort ofthing by Act of Parlinment. I hope inera-bem-s will soc that- means are provided by1-Ich our- iirstitutions can be assisted. Tnfleraidton Ihere is a Soldier-s' Institutewhich will cost about £2,000. MTuch of thenmoney required has still to be raised. Tt isa very difficul matter to get money. Ilruv- been trying to raise money at var-ioustunles for like purposes and know howbrard. it is to procure. This would be a,worthy object to assist. Under a properly'conducted scheme of loftoeries we might got

afey- poluds eon nd then, and might beable to obtain the money with wich tocomplete the building. ff. tire Bill is rde-featedl the 'Minister should at once stop allgambling. If lie does fliat we shlrul hiau ca chaotic -tate of affairs in regard 1o wanyof our institutions, it will be impossibleto carry them on because the GovernmentLave not the mioney to assist them. Alreadymost of this Government assistance has.been cut out. Mfembers must see what willhappen if our institutions are deprived ofany assistance they have had in the past.Is it desired to retard the good work thatiii being done by the 1gly Men's Associa-tin? If it were not for fliat Associationthrere would be umo iy wid ows without moirresto-day, whu would have to pay rent if theyLid the money with which to do it. Is ittlre wish of the House that this good workshould be curtailed? Is it not right thatsuch organisations should be permitted todo these good works? These are bodieswhich the Minister knows welt carry out

1478 [ASSEMBLY.]

their work as it should be carried out. TheMinister has the last say in the matter. Hewill decide whether a body is fit to be en-trusted with this means of raising money.I hope the second reading of the Bill willbe passed. I believe we could make it aworkable measure.

Hon. R. G. ARDAGH (North-East-inreply) (9.21]: 1 thank hon. members forthe interest they bare displayed in thisBill, but I would thank them a great dealmore if they would vote for the secondreading. The practice of selling ticketsfor raffles and art unions has been abusedin the past and is illegal, though it hasbeen countenanced up to the present by theauthorities. This Bill seeks to alter thatposition. -Mr. Sandearson lays stress on theeducation of our children, The proposedamendment is intended to protect thechildren. At present they are allowed tosell tickets from house to house and fromperson to person, and solicit money forvarious objects. This should not be allowedany longer. Children should not be engagedin selling tickets in lotteries, raffles, and artunions. Members who are opposed to lot-teries have carefully avoided the fact thathundreds of thousands of pounds go out ofthe State every year to other States of theCommonwealth. Even the Leader of theHouse avoided that question. The Ministerfor Education has referred to the raisingof £C600 in half an hour for the Children'sHospital. This money was raised by sport-ing members of the community, and mr. P.A. Connolly headed the list with £E100. Ifit had not been for these gentlemen thehospital would have found great difficultyin raising the money. The sporting com-munity of the metropolitan area have takena prominent part in the Ugly Mfen's Asso-ciation, bnt the willing horse has beenridden to death. Some other means mustbie provided for the raising of money forthese deserving objects. No doubt some ofthese organisations that are at the back ofthis institution have in their minds theraisig of money by these lotte'ries. Iftheir work is retarded it will cause greathardship to certain sections of the cnom-munity.

Question put and a division taken withthe following result:-

Ayes -- -- . .10

Noes . . . .. 13

majority against -

Hon. R. G. ArdagbHon. V. H1anersleyHon. E. H. Hlarris'Ron, 31. W. HickeyHon. J. W. Kirwan

f ln. A. Lovekin*lion. T. Mooreline. A. H. PantonHon. StrWITHWittenoom

IHoin. F. A. Boglin(Tcilcr.)

NOES.Hen. If. P. Colebatch lion.Hon. J. Duffel[ Hon.Mon. J. Ewlog HOn.Hon. J. A. Orelg Hon0.Hon. J. J. Holmes Hion.Hon. C. Mec~enzie Hon.Hlon. G. W, Miles

AYES.Hon. J. Cornell

3. Mills3. NicholsonE. RoseA. ., H, SawH. StewartA. Sanderson

(Feller.)

PAIR.

Hon. Ho..Dd

Question thus negatived; the Bill de-feated.

BIILIJ-LANDl TAX AND INCOMETAX.

Assembly's Message.Message received from the Assembly

notifying that it had-agreed to make theamendment requested by the Council sub-ject to the modification set out in theschedule.

BILL-STATE CHILDREN ACTAMENDMENT.

Assembly's h1essage.Message received from the Assembly

notifying that it had agreed to the Coun-cii's modification of the amendment madeby the Council to amendment No. 2 madeby the Assembly.

House odiourned at 9.30 p.m.

Wednsesdlay, 86th October, 19,0 1.

Pagequestions: Public Service Reclassification Board 1479

Oil possIbIlities, Kimberley, geological surve 1479Company formation and Government contro 1479Cattle stlmns Wydam..... .1479Russian Goverment, lecturer's bona fides ... 1479

joint Select CommkIttee: ;Pedemation aind State,extension of time-------------------1479

papers : A. C. leseD, retirement.. ......... 479K. angaroo,' alterations.... ........ 1479

.Asent to Bills - . . . . 1480Mlls: North Fresnantle R as liation ... 1480

Industrial Arbitration Act Amendment, 2R.. 1480Reciprocal Enforcement, of Maintenanc Orders,

is............................1484Administration Act Amendment, returned .. 1454Wheat Markceting, returned................1484State Children Act Amendment, Council's

modifirations.. ................ 1484Annual Estimates : Votes and Items discussed ... 1485

Tim SPEAKER took the Chair nt 4.30p.m., and rend prayers.

1478