£1111 do tïi m i 4 4 1 Ok -ê&Sim i i

» fI f 1 /7 u-f i' > ' n

Ay Â. alW Armm£ ™ V '*> 3~ - ^ -

cll/B-COMMISSlON FOR EXCHANGE OF OVULATIONS.

The f i r s t m ee ting w b b held t h i s a f te r n o o n .

M. MONTAGNA. . . Chairman

GREAT BRITAIN M. Ryan, C ol. Feywood.

ERAHCE M. de ’".aoroix. Col. C o u r t in .

ITALY M. G a l l i .

GREECE M. CuolamanoaDr. T heotokas .M. J o a n n id ia , and a S e c r e ta r y

TURiCEY Col. Tewfik Bey.Dr. î lihadkeshad Bey Shukri Bey

D t. Nansen and Mr. P . Baker were a l s o ores e n t .

M. Cai:ierlynok. . . I n t e r p r e t e r .

M. IIQNVAGNA opened th e p ro c e e d in g s . He quoted Lord

Curson t o t h e e f f e c t t h a t th e tiub-C-immlss ion were asked to

d is c h a rg e t h e i r tas,< q u ic k ly and produce a d r a f t ag ree m e n t.

A f te r d w e ll in g on th e g r a v i ty o f th e problem, he in tro d u ce d

Dr. Nansen.

DR. NANSEN re ad a s ta te m e n t , th e E n g l ish t e x t of which

i s annexed.

COLONEL TEitFIK BEY s a id t h e r e were th re e q u e s t io n s , - t h a t

of o i v i l h o s ta g e s i n Greek hands, t h a t o f o r i s o n e r s o f war and

t h a t of exchange o f p o p u la t io n s . The problem was so g rave t h a t

i t would be w e ll n o t to ru s h a t i t in to o g r e a t a h u r r y . He

would t r e a t each s u b je c t s e o a r a t e ly w ith th e f r a n k n e s s o f a

s o l d i e r .

- 24 -

As re g a rd a o i r i l h o s ta g e s , Turk !ah pub l io op in io n w b b

v e r y in f lam e d . They compris d persona of both s e x e s , in c lu d in g

young g i r l s . The f i r s t taslc was t o s e c u re t h e i r r e p a t r i a t i o n .

The T u rk ish D e le g a t io n had l i s t s which, however, gave only the

names of perhaps a thousand ou t of th e t o t a l number of 3 ,8 0 0 .

Furflar l i s t e could be p roduced . Nothing in I n t e r n a t i o n a law

J u s t i f i e d th e removal of o i r i l h o s t a g e s . The s o le o b je c t o f the

Greeks was t o d e s t r o y th e i n t e l l e c t u a l c l a s s . The CniAs h D elega­

t i o n demanded th e immediate r e t u r n o f t h e s e c i v i l h o s ta g e s and

f u l l e n q u i r y us to what had become of them. He r e f e r r e d t o the

p ro c ee d in g s a t Mudania when he s a id th e A l l ie d g e n e r a l s had u n d er­

t aken t o t e l e g r a o h , u rg in g th e G reeks t o r e t u r n t h e s e h o s ta g e s .

He asked t h a t an immediate d é c i s io n should be tak e n on t h i s s u b je c t

b e f o re d e a l in g w ith an y th in g e l s e .

U. CACLAUAN03 s a id he und ers to o d th e T urk ish p o in t o f v iew .

The p erso n s i n q u e s t io n , however, were p e r so n s accused of o f fe n c e s

l i k e e sp io n a g e . 3ome o f them had been a c t u a l l y condemned.

There would, of c o u r se , be a g e n e ra l amnesty on the c o n c lu s io n o f

pea ce , and under such an amnesty they would be r e t u r n e d . The

Greeks were n o t a c tu a t e d by any such s i n i s t e r m otive a s had feeen

s u g g e s te d . They had taken m easures su ch a s any b e l l i g e r e n t was

J u s t i f i e d in t a k in g . He spoke w ith ap p ro v a l of D r .N a nsen 's

s ta te m e n t . ? u b l io o p in io n i n Greece, and , in d ee d , th ro u g h o u t the

w o r ld , was preoccup ied r e g a rd in g th e 126 ,000 G reet m ales d e ta in e d

by the T urks . He appealed to th e b e t t e r f e e l i n g of th e Turks

i n fa v o u r of 600,000 r e f u g e e s i n G reece, who had been d ep r iv ed of

t h e i r a b le -b o d ie d men f o l k . He dw elt on the g r a v i t y of the

problem o re a te d by th e s e p a r a t i o n o f t h e s e people from t h e i r male

s u p p o r t e r s . He d id no t wish to dw ell on t h e q u e s t io n of the

exchange o f p o p u la t io n s w ith vtoioh Dr. N ansen 's naper had d e a l t

so f u l l y . The Greek Government were n o t i l l-d fcp o se d r e g a rd in g the

o i v i l h o s t a g e s . B u t f o r them i t o o u ld n o t b e t r e a t e d a p a r t

f ro m t h e q u e s t i o n o f t h e men o f m i l i t a r y a g e d e t a i n e d i n A s i a

M in o r . The G reek D e l e g a t i o n o o u ld n o t s e p a r a t e t h e t h r e e

q u e s t i o n s u n d e r c o n s i d e r a t i o n . T h e i r i d e a would be t o s e t

o f f o i v i l h o s t a g e s a s a g a i n s t d e t a i n e d m a le s and t o have a n

a g r e e m e n t on t h e o r i n o i p l e o f e x o h a n g e o f p o p u l a t i o n s e i t h e r

c o m p u ls o ry o r v o l u n t a r y .

COLONEL Ja.'PIiC BKY i n s i s t e d t h a t t h e q u e s t i o n s o f o i v i l

h o s t a g e s and p r i s o n e r s o f var w e re d i s t i n o t . T u rk e y h e l d no

p e r s o n s a n a l o g o u s t o t h e o i v i l h o s t a g e s . The q u e s t i o n o f

p r i s o n e r s o f war o n l y was a r e c i p r o c a l o n e . As f o r th e

d e t a i n e d men o f m i l i t a r y a g e , t h e y hud s e r v e d i n t h e C re e k

Army and m ig h t s e r v e a g a i n . They w ere t h e r e f o r e i n t h e

p r i s o n e r s o f war o a t e g o t y . He had s t a t e d h i s v i e w a b o u t o i v i l

h o s t a g e s . H is v i e w a b o u t o r i s o n e r s o f war was t h a t T u rk e y

had f o u g h t a v i c t o r i o u s w ar and was e n t i t l e d t o demand t h e

im m e d ia te r e t u r n o f t h e T u r k i s h p r i s o n e r s o f w ar i n G reek

h a n d s . I f G re e c e showed g o o d - w i l l by r e t u r n i n g b o t h t h e c i v i l

h o s t a g e s an d t h e p r i s o n e r s o f w a r , T u rk e y m ig h t c o n s i d e r t h e

r e t u r n o f G reek p r i s o n e r s o f war w i t h o u t a w a i t i n g t h e c o n c l u s ­

i o n o f p e a c e . He w ou ld d e a l w i t h t h e e x o h a n g e o f p o p u l a t i o n s

when t h e f i r s t two q u e s t i o n s had b e e n s e t t l e d .

„ f t e r some f u r t h e r r e m a r k s f r o m M.QACLkMANOS t h e

C h a irm an o b s e r v e d t h a t t h e r e w ere two v e r y c o n f l i c t i n g p o i n t s

o f v i e w . He a s k e d w h e th e r i t was t r u e , a s had b een s t a t e d

t o h i » , t h a t t h e T u rk s a l s o h e l d c i v i l i a n G re e k s u b j e c t s .

COLQJteL TErtFIK. BEY s t r o n g l y d e n ie d t h i a l He s a i d t h a t

i f t h e r e w ere a n y s u c h p e r s o n s t h e y w ere f r e e t o g o .

H . i/K LACROIX made a s h o r t s t a t e m e n t i n f a v o u r o f t h e

T u r k i s h p o i n t o f v ie w t h a t , f..e v i c t o r s , t h e y were e n t i t l e d

t o o l a i B t h e im m e d ia te r e t u r n o f o i v i l h o s t a g e s and T u r k i s h

p e r s o n s .

MR. r t a W a e id t h a t th e Sub-C oram iab io n had be en d i r e c t e d

t o s tu d y a c e r t a i n r a n g e o f a u b je o te and t o p ro d u o e a d r a f t

a g r e e m e n t , i f o o a s i b le , I f a n y D e le g a t io n made th e p r e l i m i n a r y

s e t t l e m e n t o f p a r t i c u l a r q u e s t io n s a o o n d i t i o n o f f u r t h e r

n r o g r e e a , t h e w o rk o f th e S u b -C o m m is s io n w o u ld b e h e ld up a t

t h e o u t s e t . The n r o p e r c o u r s e w o u ld be t o r e v i e w a l l th e

q u e s t io n s an d e n d e a v o u r t o p ro d u o e a d r a f t a g re e m e n t , one

c o n d i t i o n o f w h ic h m ig h t v e r y w e l l be t h a t t h e c i v i l h o s ta g e s

s h o u ld be r e t u r n e d b e f o r e a n y t h in g e l s e vas done i n e x e c u t io n

o f t h e a g r e e m e n t• The i m p o r t a n t t h in g was t o g e t an a g r e e ­

m e n t c o v e r in g th e w h o le g r o u n d . Once s u c h an a g re e m e n t was

a r r i v e d a t , p r o v i s i o n m ig h t b e made f o r i t s e x e c u t io n i n

s u c c e s s iv e s ta g e s , e . g . r e t u r n o f c i v i l h o s ta g e s , e xch a n g e o f

p r i s o n e ra o f w a r and e x c h a n g e o f p o p u l a t i o n s ; th e l a t t e r tw o

s ta g e s m ig h t be e f f e c t e d s i m u l t a n e o u s l y f a r r e a s o n s o f u r g e n c y .

THK JHAIRMAf a g r e e d t h a t t h i s was a r e a s o n a b le o r o o o s a l

and M . C ac lam a no s e x p r e s s e d h i s a d h e e td m n to i t .

,;R. NAHüEN a l s o e x p r e s s e d h i s a p p r o v a l o f t h i s p r o p o s a l .

Ho s u g g e s te d t h t - t on ce an a g re e m e n t was r e a c h e d , t h e c i v i l

h o s ta g e s m ig h t be r e t u r n e d a t o n o e . T h is m ig h t be f o l l o w e d

im m e d ia te l y b y a r e t u r n o f t h e d e t a in e d men o f m i l i t a r y age and

an e x c h a n g e o f p r i s o n e r s i n e q u a l n u m b e rs on e a o h s i d e .

OOLOHBL Th , g l£ B iiY made some f u r t h e r r e m a r k s i n * l o h

he i n s i s t e d t h a t t h e m a j o r i t y o f t h e men o f m i l i t a r y age had

s e r v e d i n th e G ree k A rm y .

jR . NiJteEH o b s e rv e d t h a t t h e y had l a r g e l y done so u n d e r

c o m p u ls io n . He , / re s a e d th e p o i n t t h a t w h a t t h e T u r k i s h C ove r:

m en t m ig h t l e g i t i m a t e l y e x o e o t was s e c u r i t y a g a i n s t t h e i r

s e r v i n g i n t h e f u t u r e , f o r w h ic h h i s schem e p r o v id e d .

MR. RYAH s u id i t w o u ld be w e l l t o h a ve a p r e c is e s t a t e ­

m en t a s t o t h e num ber o f t h e u e ta in e d men o f m i l i t a r y ag e who

had a c t u a l l y served in th e Greek rmy. Col. Tewfik Bey had

f i r s t spoken a s though th e y had a l l done eo . He had then spoken

o f th e m a jo r i t y aa h av ing done s o . I t soemSd nrobab le t h a t Ottoman

Greeks who had served i n th e Greek /rm y would e i t h e r have escaped

w ith th e p o r t i o n o f t h a t .rm y vhioh had g o t away, or would have

f a l l e n p r i s o n e r w ith t h a t p a r t which had been o a p tu re d . He fUr.Ryan)

b e l ie v e d t h a t many of th e d e ta in e d m ales wer men who had take n

p a r t i n th e movement o f re g a g e e a tow ards th e c o a s t . I f Colonel

Tewfik Bey a c ce p te d th e Greek f i g u r e o f 125 ,000 men, i t would be

u s e f u l to know what e x a o t p o r t io n o f them ver h e ld by th e ?urka

to have served in th e CreeK /rm y . T h is s u b je c t was, however,

no t lu raued .

IE . MOKTuGNA aumming up, su p p o rted ’! r . R yan 's p ro p o s a l

whloh was a l s o supported by th e g e n e ra l sen se o f th e M eeting ,

though th e T urk ish D e le g a te s , w ith o u t openly r e j e c t i n g i t ,

o o n t in sd to i n s i s t on t h e i r r i g h t to c la im th e immediate r e t u r n

o f c i v i l h o s ta g e s and T u rk ish p r i s o n e r s o f war in U reeoe.

As s e v e r a l members of th e bub-Commisuion had, a t t h i s

p o in t , to a t t e n d th e m ee ting of th e 2nd Commission, th e p ro c ee d in g s

were ad jou rned t o December 4 th a t 2 .3 0 p.m.

SUB-COMMISSIOK PO H oXC'.l .liG.-, OF PQPUy.TIOHà.

The second meeting vms held this afternoon (December 4, 1922).

PK1SSKBT:

M. MONTAGU, ... Chairman.

Mr. iïyan. Col. Ueywood.

M. de Lacroix. Col. Courtin.

M. Galli.

M. Caolamanoe General Maznrakis l)r. Theotokas

Col. Tewfik Bey.Dr. Nihad Reshad Bey Shukri Bey.

Mr. BWIGHT of the U.S.A. Special Mission attended

but did not take part in the discussion.

(Before the meeting, I mentioned privately to M. Montagna

that M. Joannidis, who had been present at the meeting of

the Main Commission and at the first meeting of the Sub-

Commission, apparently as « member of the Greek Delegation,

was in reality, according to a letter addressed to the

Secretariat-General by the Delegation of the Greek Patriarchate

at Constantinople, a representative of the Patriarchate. I

pointed out that as thie letter had been circulated, the

continued presence of Mr. Joannidis might give rise to a

disagreeable incident, and suggested that M. Montagna might

arrange with M. Caclamanos that M. Joannidis should keep in

the background. This was duly arranged, and M. Joannidis

did not take part in the sitting).

GitSAT BP.ITAIM

GREECE

M. MOlT/tGli; Bald that we hr d discussed at the last

Bitting two pointe, viz. civil hoatajee nnd exchange of

prisonere of war. The discussion had had to be broken off

ut a point at which Colonel Tewfik Bey was entitled to

apeak. He invited Colonel Tewfifc Bey to resume the

dieouBBion.

COLQM^L TiflVFIK Bi£f Baid that these two questions had

been diaoussed bo thoroughly as to be ripe for a decision.

He would propose a form of decision. He observed that the

number of civil hostages was greater than the Greeks had

made out. The lists he had previously submitted contained

1,452 names. He now produced a farther list of 450, and

there were more to follow. The Greeks claimed to have

taken these hostages for the security of the army. low

that the army had left Anatolia, no such reason for re­

taining them could be invoked. His proposal was that the

Greeks shoulReturn the whole of the civil hostfiges within

a week et bmyma and Constantinople and they should return

the Turkish prisoners of war within a fortnight. If the

Greeks carried out these two conditions punctually, Turkey

would return a number of Greek prisoners equal to the

number of prisoners of war not including the civil hosttiges.

She would do this without awaiting the conclusion of peace;

the remainder of the Greek prisoners would be released when

peace was concluded.

Some discussion followed as to the exact number of civil

hostages. No definite conclusion was reached.

M. CACImiL'.JOS Btiid thot he hoped to obtain lists,

anyhow, Greece was ready to return all these civilians,

including persons under sentence, provided u general agree­

ment on the matters referred to the Sub-Commission was reached.

M. G ,'CL/.M.'.HQq then returned to the question of the

detained melee, whoee familiee had emigrated to Qreeoe.

OOLOKiSL Tawgll- BEY eaid that Turkey wee prepared to

treat theee persons as prieonera of war.

M. CACLAttANOS demurred strongly to thiB. lie dwelt

on the absurdity of suggesting that thie large number of

people eould be regarded as prieonera of war. According,

to his recent information from Athene, men of this category

were etill being taken and deported to the interior. If

they were prieonera of war, how wae it the Turks were Btill

makihg prisoners of war a month after the armistice?

c In the course of the ensuing discussion,

M. de LaCROIX asked the Greek delegates at what figure

they estimated the Greek prisoners of war in Anatolia.

M. CaCL-V-. UOS eaid that the Greek Government estimated

them at 30,000 to 35,000, officers and men.

COLUMSL TSWÏIK BEY said he hoped to obtain exact figures,

which M. CftCL.Jift.HOb said he weuld be happy to receive and

compare with hie own.

COLOMB TEWFIK BiSY then asked for a decision on iiis

proposal.

It was pointed out by M. MOMY-GHA and Mr. RY.'li that

separate decisions on the two questions nitherto under

disouseion could not be taken until the whole ground had

been covered. M. Montagna saia the proper course would be

to take the three questions one by one and take a decision

oil each. It was finally agreed that this should be done

on the understanding that the decision on each question would

be one of principle und subject to an agreeuiont covering the

whole ground being reached. It was also made clear that

any periods for delivery such as Colonel Tewfik Bey had

suggested could only run from the date of the conclusion of

such an agreement.

The question of oiril hostages wan then taken. It wae

agreed that these hostages muet be returned. Those from

Anatolia would be returned at ümymo; those from fhraoe et

Constantinople. The operation would be supervised by the

International Red Cross.

As regards prisoners of war, it was agreed thr,t Greece

would return all Turkish prisoners of war at Smyrna. Turkey

would return immediately »n equal number of Greek prisoners

in exchange, officers for officers and . ien for men. The

remainder of Greek prisoners would be returned after the

conclusion of peace. The exchange would be effected with

the assistance of Commissions de Verification under the

auspices of the International Ked Cross. The further points

were reserved for later discussion.

M. MQNTa GHA then passed to the question of the general

exchange of populations. He observed thct the question of

the detained men of military age, whose families were

already in Greece, was very urgent on grounds of humanity.

The Turkish delegates acid that these men would fall

to be dealt with under any general arrangement for the ex­

change of populations, .after a sonevrtiat lively discussion

between them «nd II. C ‘.CLaMA-HOia it was agreed that, subject

to a general arrangement being made for the exchange of

populations, these men should he the first to be handed

over to Greece subject to guarantees for their not being

employed for military purposes.

M. MOHT.K.QN» then opened the discussion on the general

question of the exchange of populations.

M. C.-CL'-.M' HO3 observed that the Turks had already

solved the question to a large extent for themselves by

causing the departure of the majority of the Greek popula­

tion of Turkey, including a considerable portion even of

the population of Constantinople.

Dr. KllTD iuiiSH D BKY took exception to this. He said

that the Greeks who h»d ulreddy left hnd gone voluntirily.

M. MOH'i’ GtJ urged tbe-t this discussion enonld not be

pursued. He asked the Turkish deleg*tes to state their views

on the general question of exchange.

3HDEKI B£Y proposed mi exchange on the basis of the

compulsory expatrir tion of t il Greeks from Turkey, and the

compulsory expatriation of «11 Turks from Greece not

Including western Thrace,

M. C '.CLaMaIIOS Bald he ws.p prepared to exclude Ses tern

Thr&ce, but if this were agreed to Constantinople should

also be excluded as had been suggested by Lord Curzon.

.ifter some dlscuaeion, which M. Kontagna depreo.ted

on the ground that it was tronohing on questions of high

politics, the Turkish delegates were csked to state their

reasons for wishing to exclude Western Thrace.

SHU&BI fcaY said that he did not wish to trench on

political uuestions, but the main re;-a on for the proposal to

exclude iieatera Thrace was that at the outcet of tho

Conference Turkey had asked for a plebiscite in that area.

subsidiary reason was that the numbers to be oxchjngod on

euoxi side would be shout equul if Constantinople wore

included and Yestern Thruca excluded. Cert..in figui-es wefe

mentioned, but tho statistical question was not thrashed out,

M. ÜACLaii/iflOo ins is tod very strongly that the Greek

population of Jonstantlnopla oo ild not be included in >m

exchange. They aad for centuries beon an integral part of

tno population of Constantinople. They were un essential

part of its economic llie. They were an urban population

and could not possibly be absorbed by Greece, whose burden

would be intolerable if she had to accommodate this large

numoer of city-bred people in addition to the vast number

of inmd.grz-nts already on ner hands.

SÜUKRI LEY asked what were the reasons underlying

the whole matter. The first rout-on w; a a moral one. In

former times the Greeks got on very well in Turkey. It

was only in recent times that differences had arisen between

them and the Turke. a point hud been reached at which

the only thing to do was to separato them out from each

other. This being so, Turkey could not agree to make an

exception in favour of the Greek population of Constantinople

which was the main contre of Turkish life and a potential

oontro of Greex politics! festivity if the Greeks remained.

M. OACL.it&jL.'iOià insisted further on the necessity for

excluding Constantinople.

OQmJIL^i -j-Y was about to speuk, when the

meetitig was adjourned as it. Montagna bed to keep another

engagement. It was agreed to meet again to-morrow at

11.00 a.m., and that Colonel i'Effie’IK titiï snould resume the

discussion.

Deccinler 4. lfeü;

r •>UB-JOk ...ton . . l'H-; . —îj; ii.z:. i'U : i üHu.

The t h i r d m eeting m e he ld t h i s m orn ing , ( Deoemb r 5 , 1922)

M. UOH T/vOHA, C h a irm a n .

Qü T B K IT A lH ........................M r. H'/AU.

ÏKAMOK.............. .... ....................M. DE LAJhOIX

IT..LY ............................................. 1U 0• I»LI

QK3KGE . . . . . . . . . . . . • • -l.lULiUil.UÎOSSEMUiAli Uviu R/vKISDit. ï T0KA8.

OULOtiiiL m i Z I Z 3EY DR. NIHAD Kr.SllAl) 31.Y

( p a r t o f th e t im e . ) BHUZv.I BEY.

BU. D .ÏGHT o f th e U. 3. A. ti e o ia l M ifu iio n a tte n d e d b u t d id n o t ta k e p a r t in the d is c u se lo n .

M. UOH.'AGilA s a id th t i t was unnecessary to sum up

y e s te rd a y *c oonolu s io n s , “ e asked T e w fik Bey to resume the

d is o u s s io n as had been a rra n g e d a t the end o f the second e e t ln g .

I’l,.,yi7w BKY. a f t e r o b s e rv in g th a t the d e c is io n s ta ke n

y e s te rd a y were n o t com p le te on p o in ts o f d e t a i l , s tiid th a t the

T u rk is h D e le g a tio n had re c e iv e d in fo rm a t io n from Angora showing

th a t th e number o f c i v i l h o ftu ç e s was f a r g re a te r th a n the

f ig u r e m entioned by k . V e n iz o lo s . Those removed from A n a to lia

a lone exor-eded 18 ,000 } f ig u r e s f o r Thrace were n o t y e t a v a i la b le .

U. MOS s a id th a t th e f ig u r e g iv e n by T e w fik Bey

was an lrnpoeB ib le one and must in c lu d e p r is o n e rs o f war as w e l l

as c i v i l ho s ta g e a , h is own in fo rm a t io n was th t the t o t a l number

o f T u rk is h p r is o n e rs o f w r waa 10 ,1 2 3 .

A f te r some f u r t h e r w ra n g lin g , in th e cou rse o f w h ich

M. OaèlamanoB a u id th a t o n ly abou t 100 T u rk is h c i v i l i a n s had been

removed from E a s te rn Thrace , und T e w fik Bey in s is te d t h t the

(JreeMB had been rem oving c i v i l l a n e from ocuup le * t e r r i t o r y over

a lo n g pe r io d , i t was agreed th t the q u e s t io n o f numbers was a

question of fact whioh oould only be settled when both aides

were in possession of the documentary evidence whioh they said

they wore awaiting.

SHUKKI BEY explained the views of the Turkish Dele­

gation in regard to the Greeks of Constantinople. He said that

the Greek Delegation wished to divide the Greeks remaining in

Turkey into two categories, those of Constantinople and those

of Anatolia. They wished to set off the Greeks of Constantinople

against the Moslems of «estern Thraoe, excluding both from the

exchange. In view of the Turks, the reasons necessitating so

grave a measure as that contemplated applied equally to

Constantinople Greeks as to those of Anatolia. Indeed the Greeks

of Constantinople were more compromised in the activities whioh

made the Burks desire an exchange. After adverting to the fact

that there were huge numbers of Moslem refugees in Constantinople,

he said thfit he gathered th^t the Greek Delegates were not

irreconcilable to the idea of bringing the Greeks of Constantin­

ople into the exchange as they had proposed to set them off

against the Moslems of tiestern Thraoe. M. Caolamanos had said

that the Greeks of Constantinople had been settled there for

centuries, l ias not the same true of the Anatolian Greeks?

If the principle of exchange were accepted, why should not the

Constantinople Greeks be included? If Greece had difficulty in

finding accommodation for all, why not take the Greeks of

Constantinople first? The Turks also were confronted with the

difficulty dff finding accommodation. Up to recently there were

200.000 Moslem refugees in Constantinople. A good nany had been

dispersed to places in Anatolia, but from 120,000 to 130,000

still remained. Bhukri Bey also Insisted on what he called the

nmerical reason for including the Constantinople Greeks.

He put the Constantinople Greeks at no more than from 800,000

to 210,000. Tliere were about the same number, say between

200.000 and 260,000 in ^natolla. The total of the two was

roughly equivalent to the number of Moslems in Greece, exclusive

of Wectera Thraoe. Shukri fley deïended hie figure t length and

gave more partloularly reasons for rcg rding the figure mentioned

by Lord Ourzon at the meeting of the .nain Oommieaion for the

Greeks now in Anatolia as an exaggerated one.

M. DE LACROIX asked for certain partioulars regarding

the figures th t had been mentioned.

Mit. a'IaS observed that the figure mentioned by Lord

üurzon was merely an estimate based on a process of oaloulatlon.

It m s not based on definite information as to the number of

Greeks still left in Anatolia. He $Mr. Ryan) thought that

the figure mentioned by Lord Ovrzon might be in excess of the

actual number and was quite oreparod to consider any evidence

on the subject. At the same time, he thought that Shukri Bey in

making his own calculations had not allowed lor the large numbers

of Anatolian Greeks who had returned to their homes in Turkey

after the Armistice of 1918.

3HUI3I BEY said that the Turks also had suffered a

great loss of population.

M. UOM'aGHA suggested that in that case there must be

accommodation for immigrants.

TE..FIK und SHUXRI BEY said that this was not so, as

all the villages and towns over a very 1 rge area had been

burned during the debacle of the Greek army and the exodus

of the Greek population.

SHUK--.I 3EY passed to the economic aspect of the

question. The Constantinople Greeks were not an indispensable

element; they were intermediaries not producers. The void

produced by their departure from Constantinople could be filled

by other elements. In any case, the anxiety of the Turks to

secure their independence and Immunity from disintegrating

influence^ at home was a reason which exceeded in importance any

economic consideration.

ü ja .y / IZ BKY urged that It w b In the interest of

Europe also that the luostlon of nationalities in Turkey should

be settled onoe for all, ns it w> s th:t question which had

made the East a hot-bed of trouble.

M. O.U3L/ilû/iHOü took exoention to the suggestion that

in proposing to set off Oonstantinople against .Jostern Thraoe

the Greek Delegates had sown readiness to admit in principle

the possibility of agreeing to the expatriation of the Greeks

of Oonstantinople. He had, he said, spoken with a vehemence

not habitual to him against any idea of inoluding the Constant­

inople Greeks. i?or the rest, he did not propose to go into

futile figures whioh, as Ur. Ryan had said, were merely con­

jectural estimates. The Greek Delegation were ready to accept

an exchange of populations, though in principle it was repugnant

to Greek sentiment, ahukri Bey's estimate of the Moslems in

Greece exclusive of Western Thraoe was an exaggerated one and he

under-estimated the Greek population of Oonstantinople.

MR. KYAH observed that in speaking otf conjectural

figures he was referring only to the estimated figure for .«latolia

and not to the figure for Constantinople, regarding which he

would speak later.

M. 0A0LAMAMQ3 said he quite understood this. He would

agree to put the total of Greeks in Oonstantinople and Anatolia

at a round figure of 600,000. He would put the Moslems in Greece,

exclusive of Western Thraoe, at 300,000. The exclusion of

Oonstantinople would therefore provide a fair basis of exchange,

though he must add that Turkey by her unilateral action had

already saddled Greece with a million refugees.

M. MONi'.iGMA observed that it had been pointed out at

the previous meeting that great numbers It ft of their own free

U. C 'JL.'J.. vMOS admitted thet t-hia w e partially tnue,

but they had gone under pressure of one sort of another. Vublio

oriers wore going about in pi ,cos in Anatolia a iying th t the Greelœ

who did not take advantage of the 'crmission to leave by a certain

date Would not be deported to the interior.

After a short wrangle as to whether the refugees had

left under pressure or of their own aooord. U. MOIil'AGNA said he

could confirm from his own observation what M. Caolaromos had told

the Sub-0oimniSRion about the terrible state of the refugees in

Greece.

aHPOI 3I-Y sa id that M.Montagna had seen Greece but he

had not seen Turkey where the plight of the Moslem refugees was

also terrible.

M. JACL.YI.UH03 invole?d tho testimony of Lord Curzon as

to the small amount of destruction which had taken place in

Eastern Thrace. The Turkish account of the destruction in Anatolia

was very exaggerated. The Greek refugees now in Greece must have

lived somewhere and all their homes had not been destroyed. After

some further observations he said that for the reasons which he

had cited the Greek Delegates could not possibly accept the

inclusion of the Constantinople Greeks in an exchange. ue did not

know whether it was the intention of the Turks when they had full

control to expel thoi-e Greeks from Constantinople. Anyhow the

Greek Government could not accept the responsibility for being a

consenting party to their expatriation. He contested tho rgument

that they were an element of disintegration in Turkey. They had

always lived on good ter’ne with the Turks; they tud continued to

do so even after the outbreak of the general war and before Greece

had Joined in the war. Constantinople had been so little a

oentre of irredontism that the Constantinople Greeks were sometimes

reproached by other Greeks with their failing in this reepœot.

He dwelt onoe more on the roonomio argument as to the effect of

the departure of the Qroeka on the oOfii,ûbruial life of Oonstan*-

inople. He pointed to the example of ümyrna.

■This gave r'.se to u further wrangle whloh the Chairman

stifled.

M. üaJL;û.i HO a went on to suy that It would be a matter

of great difficulty to establish the modalities of an exohange.

This, in his opinion, would have to be left to a smaller oornmittee

of exporta, .ill that oould be done for the moment wne to establish

the principles.

TEWffIK BEY askec for an adjournment to prepare fche

Turkish reply to what had been said. He expressed the hope that

the Allied Delegates would alao express their views.

M. MOMJAOMA intimated that he would express the views

of the Allied Powers when the Turks and Greeks had fully developed

their respective oases.

TIlw'I-’Tff' BKY referring to something toat M . Oaolarnanos

had let fall in the course of the discussion asked how many

people M. Oaclamunos thought oould be provided with accommod­

ation in western Anatolia.

M. JAOLAU..H03 demurred to naming an exact figure. He

had merely pointed out in the remarks to which ïewfik Bey

referred that a statement of Monsieur Venizelos as to the possible

aooommodation in Anatolia had been misinterpreted in published

reports. M . Venizelos had spoken of housing for 800,000 people.

He had been mis-reported as having said thr.t there were 800,000

hous es.

U. MOKTAGNA. in agreeing to the proposed adjournment,

said he regretted that it had been impossible at this meeting to

arrive at an agreement on any new point, even in principle.

r SUB-COK;.;IüüIOI; VO.. ; : g . .XCHaIIGE 0? ..OI’ULATIOHS.

The f o u r t a m ee ting wao h e ld t h i s a f te rn o o n (December 7 , 1922).

M. MOMTAOHA, Chairman.

GREAT BRITAIH ................................... 1£.. HYANCOLONEL HEY/OOD.

FRaEOE................................................... M. Diü LACROIXCOLOHBL COURTIB.

ITALY..................................................... u . GALLI.

GREECE................................................... M. CACLAIuAÜOt,OEIIERAL i.'AZARAKIS 1,‘R. TH.30T0KAS,M. DEHDRAMIS.

TURKEY ................................................... COLOHEL TEWÏIK BEY,DR. IJIHAD RESHAD BEY. SUÏŒHI BEY.

MR. DWIGHT o f th e U.U.A. S p e c ia l M iss ion a t t e n d e d .

3.1. HOSTAGE A asked Tewfik Bey to r e mime the di g cub s i on.

TEnji’IK BEY s a id he would make h i s f i n a l s ta tem e n t a s b r i e f l y

a s p o s s i b le . Before the i n f l u x o f Greek re fu g e e s i n t o C o n o tan tinop le

th e Greek oopuln tbn th e r e c o n s i s t e d o f a b o u t 200,000. There were

now i n Anatolia coins th in g l i k e £30,000 G reeks, in c lu d in g 60,000

"Orthodox T u rk s" . There were i n G reece, n o t in c lu d in g ,/eo te ra

T h race , abou t 500,000 T urks . He c i t e d f i g u r e s to show th e

d i f f i c u l t y o f p ro v id in g fo r th e new p o p u la t io n which would come

in to Turkey under th e p roposed exchange. D uring t h e i r occ u p atio n

o f A sia Minor th e Greeks had burned 27 tow ns, 1418 v i l l a g e s ,

96,564 h ouses - n o t a l l i n towns o r v i l l a g e s - an< 240 p u b lic

e s ta b l i s h m e n ts l ik e b a th s , e t c . They had d u r in g t h e i r occ u p atio n

and d e p a r tu re removed o r made away w ith 1,500,000 head o f sm all

c a t t l e and 344,000 head of la rg e o a t t l e . They had a l s o burned

3,593 sc h o o ls . A f te r ao much d e s t r u c t io n had tak e n p la c e i t

l r j

would not be easy to establish Moslems from Greece in

Anatolia, eopecially ao there were already in Turkey maiy

Turks without shelter. In eastern Thrace there had "been

ouch destruction during the Balkan rfaro and it had not been

repaired. There was some room there but the amount of

accommodation was uncertain. An attempt was being made to

ascertain what accommodation there was. mmaiing up, he

said that the Turkish proposal was for compulsory exchange,

but it should not take place in too great a hurry owing to

the difficulty of installing the new population. It would

be better to wâit until April.

Tewfik Bey went on to contest the statement of M.

Caclamanos that there was nothing to eountcr-belanoe the

Greeks who had already left Turkey. This was not cuite

true. Greece had been expelling Turks for anything up to

30 years. /here were the Turks of Crete, of Thessaly, of

Morea? After the Balkan Jars 450,000 Turks had come back

into Turkey. It was not true that Turkey had been settling

the exchange c.uestion unilaterally. Greece had long been

forcing the Turks to leave Greek territory by all sorts

of means e.g. agrarian legislation. This was still

continuing. After the Balkan .Vars there ware 1,200,000

Moslems in new Greece and of these 700,000 had left.

At this point the Turkish Delegates showed a

tendency to lapse into disquisitions on Moslem emigration

from Greece an> time during the last hundred years.

Mr. iiYAU suggested that they were getting too far

back into history and M. MOUTACHA stopped these dis­

quisitions.

T-L.ii-'IK. Bar said he would add a few words about the

Greek population of Constantinople. The disadvantages

of their continued reoenoe in C onntantinople were

greater than those which would ensue from their departure.

Their departure wao desirable not only from the Turkish

point of view but from the point of view of Jfiurope.

tic long as they rcibained Conotantinople would bo a centre

of conflict which would provoke European intervention.

LI. hiOHTAGUA aaid he could answer this argument at

once but that he wao willing to wait.

Ta.vPIX BDY oaid that the disturbance to the commercial

life of Conotantinople would bo of uhort duration. If

people attacked to the ooil could leave, why uhould not the

urban Greeks be able to leave? In conclusion, he summed

up thi Turkish proposal in its original form.

Ui. RYAH asked for confirmation of certain figures,

more particularly whether the 50,000 "Orthodox Turks" were

included in the total 200,000 Greeks in Anatolia, and

whether the Turkish proposal was to keep theoe "Orthodox

Turko" or to bring them into the exchange.

Tli.vEIH Ü--Y oaid the "Orthodox Turks" would remain.

LiR» AYAH asked whether it was clear that those

"Orthodox Turks" would wish to remain after the other

Greeks had left.

Ti...FIk B^Y oaid that that was so.

il. CACLAUAMOS tendered his final etatement. It was

true that there were Turku in Anatolia without shelter. He

had previously put them at 2 0 0,0 0 0; that this was an

outside figure was .roved ty a report from representatives

of the International Hed Cross which estimated them at

1(30,000 souie. He demurred to the enormous ligures which

Tewfik Bey had given for cattle removed by the Greeks.

A short passage of arms ensued between Tewfik Bey

and U. Caolamanose

M. MOMTAGMA

~ * ° HT' Q - 8 a g *e a t e d t h B t t h e ^ o b - C o n s j i s a io n sh o u ld . . n f l n s I t , « t t e n t i c human t o l n m i ttB a i c t e n s e

« . » » » » , of alBO,„olOTi „na leare iinlmii

,tet ,.„fu * , hea put Tnrks

10 °” 90S 500'000 ™ " » » w „ft„

Dt 1 ,Z0° l0 0 0 ' »• " Id n o t w ish to d i s p u te

n ™r a ' b" ‘ " • 0Brt a l n d i s t r i c t s whichh«d f a l l e n to a „ b l „ . 3 0 l e a r l a A1„ r a l B _ I f a t(>

r mr” " 1'?00'°"0 " « — «■«. - u = t l o „ , „ al 6e” aP' 0 ‘ 01 0,8 , e m t - r l " - t , o h , d n o , l „ f „ 0Br of

« * . . but 01 tt... c „ „ n t r l „ a . Ho „.at 0„ t0 „0„ te3i

c e r t a i n which the I r t i s h f t , l 8ga , i 0p „aa

in conn e c t io n w i th the p a s t p o p p l . t l c of c,,te

Be*“r ” ln< *° *to — - » - « - « « o a le » e ^ 8raUOT

f r ™ 3re8° a- 1,6 “ “ ‘ a “ * “” oh ' « i ^ a t l c n was i „ the p a s ,B constant f ho tor in n ’n ,

whery tyrriLor> hud beend e t u o h e d ± l Qn Purirnv mv.- „

y * l h 0 i u r k s n o t u n d e r p r e s s u r e f r o m new g o v e r n m e n t s b u t n n d n r <

t h e i^PU-iae o f u s o n t i m o n t

— n t . d to t h i s : t h a t , h „ „ o „ l» ^

° P“° m ” °f ^ ==»nt r l „ „ t e „ a , » , hM

™ le d . Ho Oited the « . « p L s o r J o r e „ „ d m e s 8 a l j -

I M a h lS to r t “ 1 Phenomenon l a d been Bnoh l M . T l s l U e

in r e c e n t t i - , „ . l h . r o had no g. M rB l . ;« ,6as a f t „

B8lk“ l' “ a - A , t " = l r ». C h i , c l „ t0 th .h i s t o r i c a l c h a r a c t s r o f t h , p h ,n » m p m o f Uo,lme m ig ra t io n , M. Caolamano, s a id t h a t the t r n e f l r o r e o f

«h, p re s e n t „ = , l e „ p c p d la t l c n o f

t ^ P” r a r t I h r — ™ « 0 . 0 0 0 . and f „

°f e 8 t 0 r n l l i r a 0 ® 3 2 5 , 0 0 0 ‘ The - r e e k D e l e g a t i o n

’ " ‘ “ f ' U,e ‘ - - H - » . - b o d , S„ „ . 000. Unl„

J

the g x change the bo would have to be added to on enormous

refugee population amounting already to 1,000,OCX), whoee

presence in Greece was, he insisted, due to unilateral

action of the Turks. Ao for Constantinople, statistics

préparée in 1912 for school purposes and without any

propagandist intention put the Greeks of Constantinople

at 309,000. 100,000 had since been added. There were

now more then 300,000 Greeks still in Constantino île.

Ig this large population were expatriated, how were they to

be accommodated elsewhere?

Continuing, M. Caclamanos said that Colonel Tewfik

Bey professed to anticipate friction if the Greeks remained

in Constantinople. Ue must repeat that Constantinople was

not rxn irredentist centre. There had been Greek

demonstrations in Constantinople. Those who had taken

part in them were people who had already left. The best

relations had subsisted between Greeks and Turks. This

was oroved by the fact that when the Greeks wore in the

ascendant many Turks sought the protection of Greek friends

and vice versa. Tewfik Bey had spoken of Greeks living

in Constantinople who had nothing to do there, Greeks whom

he represented as semi eomad. lie had spoken of their

living in Turkish houses. Ho doubt many Greeks had lived

in Turkish houses, just ne Turks lived in Greek houses.

He hoped that both paid their rents.

M. Caclamanos concluded with a vehement appeal to the

Turkish Delegates to desist from their impossible denend.

It was one which Greece could not possibly accept. An urban

population could not be exchanged against an agricultural

population. He besought the Turkish Delegatee to reconsider

their position. If they persisted they would repent of the

loss of an indispensable factor, a loss which would be

disastrous to the economio life of their capital. ^

6 .Mit» D.vIQHT made a short statement, a copy of which la

attached, to the effect that the United Statesoould not

view with approval the expatriation of the Greeks of

Constantinople.

M. MOMTAGMA uaid t h a t the tiuto-Commi sol on had heard

eloquent and complete expositions of both sides of the case.

Both p a r t i e s had touched on Q u e s tio n s of a social and economic

order. They had also touched on humanitarian, moral and

political considerations. They had given very useful

information. He noted with pleasure that both sides had

found themoelves in agreement t o an nxtent which tliey perhaps

did not realise, not on the conclusions but on their facts.

This was paradoxical but true. Putting political considera­

tions on one side, M. Montagna developed his idea as to

fundamental agreement. He went on to say that the differences

ia the figures quoted were not considerable, or at any rate

not sc considerable as to toe ir-portant• The Turks admitted

that there were 830,000 Greeks now in Anatolia. If they

left, that meant that they would vacate accommodation for

a similar number of incoming Turks. Eastern Thrace, from

which BOO,000 Greeks had gone away, would toe available for

the balance.

The mention of the Greeks of Eastern Thrace produced a

passage of arms between t-hukri Bey and M. Caclamanos.

U. L10MTA0H-A said that there wau some room available

for emigrants. He asked the Turkish Delegates to consider

the state of the refugees in Greece. He urged that now that

an opportunity for an exchange presented itself the Turks

should not bring about a catastrophe toy expelling the Greek

population of Constantinople. In an impassioned peroration

M. Montagna said he could not believe thtit the Turks would

insist on a demand so inhuman, so unworthy of a great nation,

so calculated to produce a deplorable effect on the Conference,

which had watched thio But-Commicolon naklnrepld progreas

in a brief epe.ee of time. He pointed out the.t everyone

including the American üepreaentative v/ao ageinct the Turks

on this question. They w re wrong from every point of view,

including the political point of view. They were pre aring

their own ruin. If the Grceko in Constantinople had

compromised themselves, those compromised Greeks had left.

Ho implored the Turkish Delegates to reflect end to re­

consider their attitude regarding the Greeks of Conetantinople

before the Sub-Commission again met.

UR. ilY.-'J read a . repared statement, a copy of which is

attached.

M. DK LACROIX endorsed what M. Montagna and Mr. Hyan had

said. He agreed with to. Ryan's suggestion (here, unfortunately,

U. do Lacroix rather misrepresented what Mr. Ryan had actually

said) that the Moslems of .'/estera Thrace and the Greeks of

Constantinople should be left over for a future poaeible

exchange. 'Hie work of the Allies on thio Sub-Commis, ion was

one of conciliation. He hoped for future good relations

between the Turks and Greeks in Constantinople. Ii was some

time since he had been in Constantinople, but he knew from

his own experience how useful an element the Greeks were.

Tii.vfflk. B.-.Y said that the Turks wanted to be friends

after peace; but that they wanted to be friends with Greece.

Their experience had ehown that Turks and Greeks could no

longer live together uide by side and all the Greeks must

H. MONTAGHA said with animation that the Turks wished to

pass over a corpse. Lrr. Kyan said truly that he (M. Montagna)

had shown Impartiality, but as regards the Turks it had been

a benevolent impartiality and another pointa they had had

his support; thanko to that and the moderation shown by

the Greek Delegatee an agreement had buen reached on those

points. Let the Turk!oh Delegat&s reflect; let them not

inour the univereal réprobation whioh would be cxoited by

ineiotenoe to their demand. Their political intereste

would suffer* If they had fear for the future it would be

pooBible to consider safeguards against what they feared»

He naked that the Turkish Belegatee should so modify their

attitude no to render a settlement of all questions of

principle possible at the next meeting.

It was agreed to hold a further meeting on Leoember 9th.

a.D ..ouaraia appuyer fortement .« no» de 1. » -

„ . l e n t de d i r e :i. la Rré aident, qui « m t l o n i r l t e n n l q u e oe que r i e n t ne

t„nt de nodératlon a t de rtaarT. ««.n iH r i :<é noa d oou ta tiv». u

> l l A l , - a . r * i ^ .1. - - I - “O -

Constantinople, 11 a'ost ÜOiuo v-‘ r “ i | ji, u » 6, „ de l a D é lé gation h a l l é n l q u . , » P .*»* »« ™

personne ns SBuruiu *oam e V. popul .t io n „ . « » - C o n s t .n t lu o ; ! . , 11 a e e t r a l

, l a „ 6M de lu * 1 ^ 1 0 » h a l l ^ U n e . » p o in t de vue « . 1

« i iw iijra t ion B r i ta n n iq u e . iiouB a soutenu e a t oion o e lu l de l a W loE.a-lon ^

, « vo ir r é l l é o h i inurement u t adopté -Le p o in t do vu. -p ro s «voir

v-wvinnts fwoa?B pur l a D tie , pr 6 , . v o i r donné l=«r p le in e vU.our nu» -w .vm n

«ration turque.J 'a jo u te r a i - , l o , » a « - t a a.„lar.ant nu, t t o i .

p o l„ t , so u le v és au =our, a . 1 , « l . o a - a io n .Primo, „ Pélépstlon turque u aou ten . nu'.n pro-

t g e s t i o n d e . .u a u l n ^ a d . 1» » r , . a o M i-posant oe ts^xxre x -

. . i l » dea Greos de Constantinople, la den ta le en rapport avec . . 1 1 . d«a

. 1 p n p r in c ip e l a p o s s i b i l i t é de lê léK B tlon h e l lé n iq u e a admis =n prm o

, - a ottolaïohiioa a l u i -*4 • -a dr ius de ilonatantlnopie . . wi»*l ' e x p a t r i a t i o n t.es

même ro i été o e t t . id é e , cependant, — ,1 - M i t * « ^ a £

g sa t io n do j.ord ourson. devenue maintenant thèse de 1» *

U « l i . l l é n iq u e . Je t i e n s i d ire q u ' i l n ' é t a i t nullem ent d„na

1 , . s?r l t , e lo rd ourson . ' é t a b l i r un rapport entra . e s « • « «J u . , sans a ^ r é par la ^ . t i o n turque. 10,

1 nnt -"Tea Turoe ne v eu len t p**b <lue le b 8 ' e e t d i t to u t simplement . Lea ruio

d , ,vhru06 o c c id e n t a le s o ie n t e x p a tr ié s , pour aulmana de l a Ihraos ne veu-

« v a ls e s pour lu s vreou. sons bonnes pour eux, au - Q1t

I - Pas v o ir p a r t ir l a popu lation

„e„ m is o n s sonnes pour aux, m auvaise. pou,proposé tous l e a d a u , élém ents, e t — s

vers l 'échange au r e s t s d e . po pu la tio n , dont 11 a a g i t .

'ooonuo, on a -oaauooup parlé a . o h l f f r . a , l e » o h if

sont f a a t l d l . u , a i n s i que 1 ' . d i t , « * * » *

encore pire, lie sont tout à fait difficile» à établir avec

ewetitude. fléunnoine, J'ose dire, et Je le die après avoir

étudié bien des données, que s'il s'agit des populations exis­

tant aujourd'hui flâne les deux pays respectifs, l'équivalence

approximative est de beaucoup plue facile à établir p i si

l'on exclut du côté greo la population grecque de Constanti­

nople. Venant de Constantinople, Je ne puis admettre que la

population grecque de cette ville, même aujourd'hui,puisse etre

inférieure de 300.000 à 350.000 âmes. Tout me porte à croire

que le nombre des Grecs restés en Anattfolle,ou équivaut à peu

près au nombre des usulmans flans la Grèce (sans la Thrace oc­

cidentale )eou bien dépasse ce nombre.

r Col. HKY.iOOD. 1ti'i'Al'EMBMT MAI).. BY MH. DtïIGHT

at the Meeting of the

SOB-CQUMISSIOM OH PhlSOHISHS Oï ..AH

and the

Ü2CHAUOE Oy POPULATIONS•

Thursday - December 7th.

The American Delegation in not in accord with

proposals for new compulsory movements of populations,

miless it is clearly shown that good purposes will be

served as might he the case in the exchange of prisoners

or of populations where the exchange is necessary to

serve humanitarian ends. Without discrimination between

the parties to the negotiation for exchange, the

American delegation is unable to approve the movement

from Constantinople, of the Greek population of that

city, particularly under conditions which will send an

urban people used to artlzanship and commerce to a

rural district. We will not hesitate to express in

pursuance of out legitimate humanitarian interest our

protest at otiy such dislodgement of human beings.