indo caribbean genealogy
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Posts from soc.genealogy.west indies 1996-2007 on Indians in the West IndiesTRANSCRIPT
Indo-Caribbean Genealogy
Posts from
soc.genealogy.west-indies
for the years 1996-2007
Richard B. Francis Sep 1 1996, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: Richard B. Francis <[email protected]>Date: 1996/09/01
Subject: St. Lucia families: Cheddie, Kisna, Rattie, Merahie, and Ramdath
I am looking for any help that anyone can provide on finding information aboutthe St. Lucian families (of East Indian descent) of Cheddie, Rattie, Kisna,Merahie, and Ramdath. It has been passed down from older family members thatour families were brought to the Caribbean to work on the sugarcaneplantations there. Some siblings went to St. Lucia others were sent toTrinidad and maybe even Guyana.
I am also interested in any source of information that may help me trace thesefamilies' genealogy in India.
Richard B. Cheddie May 24 1997, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: 1997/05/24
Subject: Records of East Indians in St. Lucia by Plantation Families
Here is a response that I received about the availability of records oncekept by St. Lucian plantation families concerning East Indian indenturedlaborers. I shall continue to post other responses received via e-mail thatmay be of help for other researchers. I encourage others to do the same.
----------From: Drouilhet Sidney[SMTP:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 1997 1:19PMTo: Francis, RichardSubject: Re: Plantation Families
Not only does my family have no records of its estates in St Lucia, ithas almost completely lost all knowledge of its past. Some branches of thefamily did not even know we were from St Lucia. Everything I have foundconcerning my family, and more broadly, St Lucia history in general, wasdone from scratch by going to archives and libraries.
My situation is not unique. Virtually none of the St Lucia planterfamilies are likely to remember much, or have documents, even if they livein St Lucia. Robert Devaux told me it was unbelievable howmuch information had been thrown away over the years, even by members ofhis own family. There are exceptions, but finding the exceptions is amatter of luck, and it is not always clear what these people have, or ifthey even know they have it. This is one of the reasons I feel it is soimportant to renew an interest in St Lucia's history among the island'scitizens: if enough of them get interested, they may start looking throughtheir family papers, etc. before they are lost or destroyed. Robert Devauxdid have some success along these lines while he was working on his book onthe Brigands' War. He had done much archaeological work on his own, andwent around various towns on the island talking about what he had found.This inspired a few people to look at their own property, and they did findsome more sites from the 1790's guerrilla war that Robert felt wereimportant.
There may be something that substitutes for families' own papers. Icannot comment on the East Indians, and I have not looked for theirrecords, but I can make a few observations about records pertaining toslavery, and perhaps the fact those sorts of records exist indicate thatthere may be useful records for the period of indentured servitude. In the1820's and 30's, very extensive, detailed records had to be filed with abranch of the colonial office in London when slaves brought complaints ofmaltreatment against the persons running the estate; when the slaves wereemancipated, extensive records of the finances relating to compensationpaid to their owners, or their owners' creditors, were maintained. I wouldhazard a guess that if this was done in the relatively unorganized 1820'sand 30's, that by the turn of the century, even more methodical anddetailed records were kept on the indenturedservants, especially since, exploited though they may have been, they atleast had contracts to afford them minimal protection. These papers willprobably be in London, though.
As I mentioned before, the actual St Lucia Blue Books, as opposed to thegovernors' summary reports, might be very helpful to you and they are
microfilmed at the University of Florida in Gainesville, in their LatinAmerican Collection. Here is something else interesting you might look at:when did East Indians begin to appear as registered voters? I have copiesof the 1902, 1903 St Lucia Handbooks, and they do not appear in theregistered voter lists then, I believe. There is a 1924 Handbook, againmicrofilmed at the University of Florida, but I do not have a copy of that.It might be interesting to see if they were voting by then. The 1902,3voter lists may only be for the Castries area, which might complicatematters. Tracing the gradual acquisition of influence by various ethnicgroups in St Lucia is very intriguing. Of great importance is to determinehow the earliest ones to raise their socio-economic level accumulated theirmoney. In the case of the colored class, it can be traced to theirprofession, or in some cases, to the circumstances of their illegitimacy(which is a far more complex situation than I had naively imagined before Istarted dealing with the records); in the case of slaves who bought theirfreedom, there are actual discussion of situations such as that of the1780's, when by law they had a day off on which they were not required tostay on the estates, and a small number of them developed an economy thatwas thriving enough that the French government actually wanted to create asavings bank for slaves, a suggestion which understandably was not receivedby the slaves with enthusiasm.
Richard B. Cheddie Apr 9 1998, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: 1998/04/09
Subject: Researching East Indian Indentured Laborer to St. Lucia: Public Records Office
In the Guide to the Contents of the Public Record Office Vol II States and Departmental Records 1963 the following entries was listed:
1. On page 90: Original Correspondence (C.O. 571) 1913 - 1920 7 VolumesThese concern the entry of Indian Indentured labour into the West Indies and Mauritus.
2. On page 9: Register of Correspondence ( C.O. 780) 1913 - 1920 1 Volume
Specifically concerning St. Lucia:
3. On page 79: Original Correspondence (C.O. 253) 1709 to 1873 15 Volumes etc. after 1873 ( C.O. 321) 1874 to 1940 397 Volumes
4. On page 79: Register of Correspondence (C.O. 367) 1850 -1881 5 Volumes
5. On page 79: Register of Out - Letters (C.O. 505) 1872 - 1882 3 Volumes
6. On page 79: Entry Books (C.O. 254) 1794 - 1872 19 Volumes
7. On page 79: Acts ( C.O. 255) 1818 - 1935 17 Volumes
8. On page 79: Sessional Papers (C.O.256) 1820 - 1939 40 Volumes
9. On page 79: Government Gazettes (C.O. 257) 1857 - 1940 59 Volumes
10. On page 79: Miscellanea (C.O. 258) 1722 - 1940 136 Volumes newspapers, reports of Protector of Slaves, Blue Books of Statistics, etc
Concerning the Winward Islands
11. On page 86: Original Correspondence, Supplementary (C.O. 537) 1873 - 1898 1 Volume
12. Register of Correspondence (C.O. 376) 1850 - 1926 24 Volumes
13. Register of Out - Letters 1883 - 1926 8 Volumes
Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie Apr 24 1998, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: 1998/04/24
Subject: Additional Resources for Researching East Indians in the Caribbean
I have ran across the following books and papers that may be helpful forthose of us who are researching our East Indian heritage in the Caribbean.
1. India in the Caribbean. Edited by David Dabydeen and Brinsley Samaroo.1987. London: Hansib/ University of Warwick Centre for Caribbean Studies.
2. Indians in St. Lucia. A. Rampersad.1980. St. Augustine University of theWest Indies.
3. Voices from Indenture: Experiences of Indian Migrants in the British
Empire. Marina Carter. 1996. NY Leicester University Press.
4. Emigration of Indian Labour 1834-1900. Saha Panchanan 1933. 1970. DelhiPeople's Pub House
5. Indentured Labor, Caribbean Sugar: Chinese and Indian Migrants to theBritish West Indies, 1838-1918. Walton Look Lai. 1993. Baltimore: JohnHopkins University Press.
6. The Colonial Legacy in St. Lucia: An East Indian Perspective. ARampersad. 1988. Curepe, Trinidad. A. Rampersad & Omega Bookshops.
7. India's Imperialism and its implication for St. Lucia and the Caribbean.A. J. Rampersad. A. Rampersad & Omega Bookshops.
8. The Legacy of Indian Indenture: 150 years of Indians in Trinidad. MahinGosine w/ Dipak Malik & Kumar Mahabir. 1995. NY Windsor Press.
9. The East Indian Odyssey: Dilemma of a Migrant People. Mahin Gosine. 1994.NY Windsor Press. (ISBN: 0963931857)
10. Solving East Indian Roots in Trinidad. Shamshu Deen. 1994. FreeportJunction. H.E.M. Enterprise. (ISBN: 9768136251)
STowns Apr 9 1999, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (STowns)Date: 1999/04/09
Subject: Books on West Indian/Latin American Research
The following information is excerpted from the July/August 1998 edition of theAAHGS News, the bi-monthly newsletter of the Afro-American Historical andGenealogical Society.
Steve TownsendAAHGS News Editor
Baker, Edward Cecil. A Guide to Records in the Leeward Islands. Oxford: TheUniversity of the West Indies,1965.
Baker, Edward Cecil. A Guide to the Records of the Windward Islands. Oxford:
The University of the WestIndies, 1968.
Berleant-Schiller, Riva. Montserrat (World Bibliographical Series 134).Oxford, 1991.
Burns, Alan. History of the British West Indies. London: George Allen &Unwin, 1965.
Carmichael, Gertrude. The History of the West Indian Islands of Trinidad andTobago, 1498-1900. London:Redman, 1961.
Carr, Peter E. Guide to Cuban Genealogical Research. San Luis Obispo, CA:TCI Genealogical Resources,1991.
Carr, Peter E. Censos, Padrones Y Matriculas de la Poblacion de Cuba Siglos16, 17 Y 18. San Luis Obispo,CA: The Cuban Index.
Carter, Marina. Voices from Indenture: Experiences of Indian Migrants in theBritish Empire. New York:Leicester University Press, 1996.
Coletta, John Philip. They Came in Ships: A Step by Step Guide to ResearchingPassenger Arrival Lists andIndexes, 2nd ed. Salt Lake City: Ancestry, 1993.
Cross, Malcolm. The East Indians of Guyana and Trinidad. London: MinorityRights Group, 1980.
Dabydeen, David and Brinsley Samaroo, eds. India in the Caribbean. London:Hansib/University of WarwickCentre for Caribbean Studies, 1987.
Daly, Vere T. A Short History of the Guyanese People. Kitty, Guyana, 1966.
Deen, Shamshu. Solving East Indian Roots in Trinidad. Freeport Junction:H.E.M. Enterprise, 1994.
Delhi People’s Publication House. Emigration of Indian Labour, 1834-1900. SahaPanchanan, India: DehliPeople’s Publication House, 1970.
Dookhan, Isaac. A History of the British Virgin Islands, 1672 to 1970. Essex,
England: Caribbean UniversityPress, 1975.
Dunn, Richard S. Sugar and Slaves : The Rise of the Planter Class in theEnglish West Indies, 1624-1713.Chapel Hill, North Carolina: University of North Carolina Press, 1972.
Flores, Norma & Patsy Ludwig. A Beginner’s Guide to Hispanic Genealogy. SaltLake City: Ancestry.
Gasper, David B. Bondsmen and Rebels: A Study of Master-Slave Relations inAntigua. Baltimore: JohnsHopkins University Press, 1985.
Gmelch, George. Double Passage: The Lives of Caribbean Migrants Abroad andBack Home. University ofMichigan Press, 1992.
Gordon, Shirley. Caribbean Generations. London: Longman Caribbean, 1983.
Gosine, Mahin. The East Indian Odyssey: Dilemma of a Migrant People. NewYork: Windsor Press, 1995.
Gosine, Mahin, Dipak Malik & Kumar Mahabir. The Legacy of Indian Indenture:150 Years of Indians inTrinidad. New York: Windsor Press, 1995.
Grannum, Guy. Tracing Your West Indian ancestors: Sources in the Public RecordOffice. London :ProPublications, 1995.
Hall, Neville A.T. Slave Society in the Danish West Indies: St. Thomas, St.John, St. Croix. Baltimore: JohnsHopkins University Press, l992.
Handler, Jerome S. Supplement to A Guide to Source Materials for the Study ofBarbados History, 1627-1834.Providence: John Carter Brown Library and Barbados Historical Society, 1991.
Higman, B.W. Jamaica Surveyed: Plantation Maps and Plans of the Eighteenthand Nineteenth Centuries.Kingston: Institute of Jamaican Publications, 1988.
Higman, B. W. Slave Populations of the British Caribbean, 1807-1834.Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins Press,1984.
Honychurch, Lennox. Basically Dominica in Language, Culture and Heritage.Barbados: Dominican NationalCultural Council & Letchworth Press Ltd., 1982.
Johnson, Howard. The Bahamas from Slavery to Servitude, 1783-1933.Gainesville, FL: University Press ofFlorida.
Johnson, Howard. The Bahamas in Slavery and Freedom. Kingston: Ian RandlePublishers, 1991.
Kemp, Thomas Jay. International Vital Records Handbook of Births, Marriages,Deaths, 3rd ed. Baltimore:Genealogical Publishing Co., 1994.
Kirke, Henry. Twenty-Five Years in British Guyana. Westport, CT: NegroUniversities Press, 1970.
Lai, Walton Look. Indentured Labor, Caribbean Sugar: Chinese and IndianMigrants to the British WestIndies, 1838-1918. Baltimore: John Hopkins University Press, 1983.
Lawaetz, Eva. Free Coloured in St. Croix, 1744-1816: The History, Statistics,and Selected InformationConcerning the Free Coloured in the Danish West Indies, with Special Referenceto St. Croix, from1744-1818. Christiansted, St. Croix: Lawaetz, 1979.
Lewis, Maureen. Guinea's Other Sun: The African Dynamic in Trinidad Culture.Dover, MA: Majority Press,1988.
Mercer, Julia E. Bermuda Settlers of the Seventeenth Century: GenealogicalNotes from Bermuda, reprint of1947 ed. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1982.
Moll, Verna P. St. Kitts-Nevis (World Bibliographical Series 174). Oxford,1995.
Momsen, Janet Henshell. St. Lucia (World Bibliographic Series 185). Oxford,1996.
Nicholson, Desmond V. Antigua, Barbuda 8 Redonda: A Historical Sketch.Antigua: Museum of Antigua &Barbuda, 1991.
Parry, J. H. A Short History of the West Indies, 3rd ed. London: Macmillan,1971.
Rampersad, A. Indians in St. Lucia. St. Augustine University of the WestIndies, 1980.
Rampersad, A. The Colonial Legacy in St. Lucia: An East Indian Perspective.Curepe, Trinidad: A.Rampersad & Omega Bookshops, 1983.
Rampersad, A. India's Imperialism and Its Implication for St. Lucia and theCaribbean. A. Rampersad &Omega Bookshops.
Ryskamp, George R. Tracing Your Hispanic Heritage. Baltimore: GenealogicalPublishing Co., 1985.
Szucs, Loretto Dennis. They Became Americans: How to Discover Your Family orAncestors inNaturalization Records. Salt Lake City: Ancestry, 1997.
Vaughn, Robert V. In Loving Memory: Virgin Island Decedents, Relatives,Friends and Others: An IndexFrom Selected Reports in The Daily News of the V.I. and the St. Croix Auis,January 1982 Through January1989. Christiansted, St.Croix: Lawaetz, l983.
Watson, Jack. The West Indian Heritage: A History of the West Indies. London:John Murray, 1979.
Williams, Eric. History of the People of Trinidad and Tobago. London: Deutsch,1964.
Kathryn May 26 1999, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Kathryn" <[email protected]>Date: 1999/05/26
Subject: Re: [CARIBBEAN-L] trinidadian help
I am Trinidad born, but moved to Canada in the 60's. Started researching myTrindadian ancestors a few years back. I have had great success obtainingbirth, marriage and death certificates from the Registrar General's Office.
Just received 8 certificates today which took abt 4 months. The TrinidadArchives does have the Colonial Office Documents on microfilm, I do believe1800-1870. The Government Archives also has East Indian Immigration records1854-1870. I am interested in joining your Trinis e-mail group.Thank you Kathryn
aplmac
May 9 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected]: 1999/05/09Subject: [CARIBBEAN-L] Indian migrationThe copyright of the below two pieces belongs to Shamshu DEEN, of Trinidad. Anyone wishing to do so may contact him at [email protected] ================================================ NEVIS' Early INDIANS Shamshu Deen 21/03/98 In my continuing look at the Caribbean Indian diaspora, I examine this week the documentation on indentured Indians in Nevis. This is a follow-up of an article I did on the sister island of St. Kitts (see Independent of March 7, 1998). Nevis is a fascinating island, geographically and historically. Volcanic in origin the towering Nevis Peak hovers over this whole island and clearly visible from just about anywhere. At 3232 feet, it is higher than our El Cerro del Aripo, 3085, Trinidad's highest mountain. Recent events show the interconnections of vulcanicity in that with every eruption at the Soufriere Hills volcano, Montserrat, the residents at Charlestown, Nevis, reported that the water from their hot spring ran cold! Historically, Nevis has had some impressive settlers and visitors over its road of time. Archaeological excavations show that the first inhabitants went there about four thousand years ago. On November, 1911, Christopher Columbus' vessels anchored off the coast. In 1907 the explorer, Captain John Smith, whose memory was recently revived in the movie, Pocahontas, spent several days at Nevis on his way to found the Virginia colony in North America. Nevis was the birth place of Alexander Hamilton who later went to America and became the Secretary of the United States Treasury. Africans also came in large numbers to work as slaves. Today they form the largest population group. And in 1874, the lone voyage of Indian indentured workers arrived from Calcutta. Perhaps what is most praiseworthy is the serious and successful attempt by the authorities and interested personnel to preserve the island's rich and diverse history. The Nevis Historical and Conservation Society ( NHCS ), "
Was founded in 1980 to conserve the natural and cultural history of Nevis by collecting artifacts and archival materials, publishing pertinent information and researching and making information available." With those objectives in mind the NHCS opened the Museum of Nevis History at the birth place of Alexander Hamilton and the Horatio Nelson Museum followed in 1992. The friendly, helpful and courteous staff led by Mr. Robinson acceded to my every request for material and for photocopying at a minimal cost. It was at this Nelson Museum in Charlestown that I was able to find publications and handwritten registers verifying the arrival of Indians to this island. In a publication Caribbean Migrants,Richardson, 1993, it was noted, " On March 30, 1874, 315 Indians came to Nevis. During their indenture period many were homesick and lonely, and some broke their contracts in order to migrate to Trinidad. The others were offered re-indenture contracts after their five-year periods had expired, but they chose to remain on Nevis as free labourers." The point about coming to Trinidad was verified by the family stories of the Mustaphas of El Socorro who claimed that their ancestor, Sheikh Mujaffar Ali, had rebelled against his masters and had come to Trinidad; subsequent searches showed that he had come from Nevis. Throughout the documents of the 1870's and 1880's I found references of the presence of Indians in Nevis. The 1874 Blue Book of Nevis showed that with the introduction of the Indians, 4993 pounds sterling of the island's total expenditure of 11,149 pounds was spent on Indian immigration. Two acts were passed in that year; one on March 24 was "to raise a sum of money for the purpose of assisting to defray the expenses of the introduction of Coolie Immigrants,";the other on April 9, "to raise a further sum of money for the purpose of assisting to defray the expenses of the introduction..." The arrival of that ship from Calcutta was by far the most important and largest single maritime activity affecting the people of Nevis for 1874. The crew was the most thirty five, and with a tonnage of 974, outstripped the total of five voyages of 880 tons from Britain. From Trinidad there was a tonnage of twenty four; at that time Nevis held a favourable balance of trade with Trinidad which sent coconuts, pickled fish, cocoa and timber in exchange for sheep and horned cattle. The early years for the Indians must have been difficult ones. For 1874 and 1875, court convictions by and against them were well over 120; this gradually declined to just 27 in 1880, as they settled and were more easily accepted by the Nevisian society. It would seem that due to the small number of Indians requested by, and eventually taken to Nevis that their emigration from India was handled by the Guiana Emigration Agency at 8 Garden Reach, Calcutta. This agency had in 1880 requested of the President's office in Nevis, a report on the condition of the Indians. To this the acting President Spencer Churchill
replied on August 14, 1880, " I beg to state that all the Indian immigrants were freed from their indentureship in April 1879." The point about Guyana supervision is made here in that more detailed documentation might be available from the National Archives of that country. Concerns on the welfare of the Indians were expressed in another letter of July 5, 1880, when Mr Spencer addressed the questions of "attendance of Coolie children in the schools,...... whether they have generally at this time acquired sufficient acquaintance with our language colloquially to enable them to profit by the masters' instructions .....do they attend divine service either singly or in families......what numbers of their children have been baptized ?" The question of repatriation was also addressed in Mr. Churchill's letter of May 14, 1881, which stated, "I am directed by his Excellency the Governor to forward by R.M. Steamer to Grenada for shipment per SYRIA (the sailing ship that came to Trinidad with Indians between 1872 and 1878) to Calcutta the coolies named respectively Santokho and Bhugwantia enclose copies of correspondence on the subject and I shall be glad to be advised of the departure of these persons." In the documents at Nevis however I could not find the list of the names of the Indians who arrived in 1874. Such a list should still be available and I was assured that there were more documents awaiting classification and would soon be available to researchers. Two positive notes on my research in Nevis the first was that I met descendants of that voyage of 1874 both in Nevis and their relatives here in Trinidad. These would be discussed in a subsequent article. The second was for other Caribbean genealogists there is "The Complete Book of Emigrants 1700-1750" by Peter Wilson Coldhan, 1993, which gives passenger listings from which one might trace ancestry. _____________________________________________________________ INDIA-- NEVIS TRINIDAD Shamshu Deen 28/03/98 It would seem as if the same way Chinatown served as a concentration for many Chinese immigrants to New York city and also how many cities have their little Italy or little Greece, so too did Trinidad serve as a place for the settling of peoples from various groups. Some Indians, coming in small numbers to other Caribbean islands during the period of indentureship, attracted by the resources and the chance to be with their countryfolk made the journey south. These islands each required a smaller quota not only because they were, with the exception of Jamaica, much smaller in size than Trinidad but also because as Richardson, 1983, suggested, "Neither ( British Guiana nor Trinidad ) had suffered the environmental degradation wrought by decades of cane cultivation in the 'old' (British) islands of the Caribbean but both needed maintenance, field work and reconstruction of rainforest and mangrove swamps to fields of sugar cane."
When the first and only boat of indentured Indians from Calcutta to Nevis in 1874, the 315 souls were distributed to several estates. Some left during their five years, some soon after and the others remained on the island. Though so far I have not been able to find the listing of the names of Indians who arrived in St.Kitts (1861) and Nevis, I have found documents and publications which offered assistance as to the status of the present day families. Richardson, 1983, stated, "Today in the late 20th century, the only noticeable vestige of this immigration on the two islands is a few Indian families in the Cotton Ground village area of Nevis north of Charlestown. Among the early Indians there was a lot of intermarriage among the jahajis and later on among the children of the jahajis. Many soon took Christian names. According to Byron, 1981, "In typical Indian tradition, young Indian Thomas girls were married to Indian Sucheron youths and so forth. And in most cases there were many Indian children of Nevis birth." I visited two such families while in Nevis. The first was and old man, John Henry, born in 1903, and presently living in the village of Fountain, a few miles north east of Charlestown. He was only four years when his father died. His father had come as a little boy from India his being on that 1874 ship was perfectly logical. >From Mr. John Clarke, born 1926, at Cotton Ground village I got a fair amount of information on his family background. Both sets of his grandparents had come from India. His paternal grandfather, Bhagirath, adopted the name of Clarke and married an Indian from St. Kitts. Their son was Fred Clarke and daughters, Mary and Edna, both of whom had migrated to New York. Fred remained in Nevis and married Olive, the daughter of Paray and Mary, both of whom had come from India. Olive's siblings all migrated most going to the USA. "Fred and his teacher-oriented wife," according to Byron, "were determined that their children should be given every educational opportunity possible, and many of them were sent to universities and other educational institutions abroad. Few had returned to Nevis." John, a son to Fred and Olive, was a government agricultural development officer and eventually became the head of the Agricultural Department in Nevis. In this capacity he visited Trinidad on different occasions and was able to re-establish ties with his Trinidad cousins. John's maternal grandmother, Mary, was a Mungroo. Her brother, William, as a little boy, had joined a Nevis Indian migration to Trinidad in the 1880's. Here he married a fellow Nevis Indian, Alice Lulu, and settled in Malabar, Arima. They rented a house but after a few years of hard work on the public roads, William bought several acres, which he eventually gave to his children, Bojou, John, Edgar ( Sonny ), Arthur, Edith and Mary. As youngsters the sons worked on the San Jose estate in Lopinot where they earned between 6 and 12 cents a day picking and bagging cocoa. This was during the 1920's and 1930's.
Arthur married Gertrude whose parents Nanhoo and Florence Stephens had also come from India via Nevis. Arthur worked with WASA where he became an inspector. His children have become associated with horse racing. Joy Mungroo works at Santa Rosa. Michael Mungroo was a jockey in the 1960's and 1970's; he rode freelance in Trinidad and Tobago and also Barbados. Some of his winners were Debonnaire, Orlando, Bulldozer and Back to Nature. Ralph is a trainer and owner of horses kept at the Santa Rosa stables. I was fortunate to meet Sonny Mungroo ( 1913 ), the last surviving child of William, at his daughter's grocery in Talparo. After his stint as a cocoa labourer, he worked at the US base at Wallerfield where he did brush cutting and sanitation. He also worked for the Government Cocoa Board at Carapo and at La Reunion estate in Chaguaramas. He married Basdaye Sukhu of Diego Martin in an Anglican ceremony when she was called Nazarene. They had 12 children and lived at Malabar. With Basdaye's death in 1983, and a stroke Sonny suffered in 1985, he moved in with his daughter, Angela, and her husband, V.S. Naipaul (Vincent Sankar ). The inter-island connection has been kept alive over the years. In 1926, Sonny's father, William visited Nevis and met his sister, Mary, and nieces and nephews, one of whom, Edward, came to Trinidad a few years later. Mr. John Clarke's visits have revived and reestablished ties among the relatives of our two twin island states. Byron, 1981, lamented, "But most of the Indian families that enriched the life of Nevis in the distant past have gone. They have migrated to other lands where they do well. Of course a not inconsiderable number has become thoroughly mixed with the rest of the native population.....Nevis would appear to have become too small to continue to support the lives and ambitions of the descendant Indian families who came to this land more than 100 years ago." Hopefully my recent contacts with St.Kitts/Nevis and also the Public Records Office and National Maritime Museum both in London would yield those valuable lists of 1861 and 1874, as we continue to examine the arrival of various peoples to the Caribbean and then their subsequent movements worldwide.
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Jun 26 2002, 10:48 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:47:45 -0400Local: Wed, Jun 26 2002 10:47 pm
Subject: Some Individuals in St. Lucia and Grenada circa 1891
The following bits of data was collected from the East Indies to St. Lucia
by Surgeon-Major D.W.D. Comins, Protector of Emigrants, Calcutta. Printedat the Bengal Secretariat Press in 1893
St. Lucia
1. Budhu, age 20, son of Parabu. Caste: Turki Koiri from AzamgarhDistrict, Mohmadambad Thana, Walidpur village. Uncle's name Gulap, son ofDomon. Budhu signed a Form of Agreement for Intending Emigrant to St. Luciaon 15 Dec 1890 in Ghazipur, India
2. Pay list of Crown Lands Estate for the week ending 3 April 1886:Gujadhur, Horill, Hulass, Hoossanys, Intame, Joodhester, Joonab, Kalkasings,Kehane, Kessowar, Khiroda, Lachiman, Lakpetia, Lukkia Dilloo, Maimra,Manchoo, Mengaul, Mucktolia, Munnoosings, Naga, Najtookallys, Panchoo,Pemya, Phobagra, Poonia, Pajne, Prionauth, Raghoo, Rampaul Girlya, RampaulSanker, Rumsumhin, Ramyad, Resmu, Rutnu, Salamutalu, Snodunden, Shazjada,Shajurb, Sabnath, Simroo, Somnar Mengaul, Sukba, Sookhan, Sookra, SomraLalloo, Somra Nimmur, Sarukissen, Sutraton, Sucknu, Jakam, Burdia, Bundoo.
3. Pay list of Crown Lands Estate for week ending 10 April 1886: Notedifferent spellings for same names listed for 3 Apr 1886: Agnoocea, Augmo,Baijoo, Ballea, Barhoo, Bhagobutty L., Bhagobutty Ram, Bagwansahaie,Bhulloo, Beekham, Button Napoo, Bissessur, Bissessuree, Boodhun, Bundhoo,Bundhea, Boodna, Chakowree, Chootra, Chowtie, Chujjoo, Chumme, Dagull,Donie, Dilchandsingo, Doola, Dorlaum, Ekwara, Fokeer Mahomed, Gopee,Gujadhur, Horli, Hulass, Hoossany, Jutame, Joorhester, Jomal, Kalkasingo,Kihane, Kessmar, Khiroda, Luchiman, Lukpotia, Lukhina, Lukkia Dilloo,Mainwa, Manchoo, Mingnul, Mucktolia, Munnoosing, Naga, Naytookally, Panchoo,Penya, Phobagra, Poonea, Payne, Prionath, Raghoo.
4. Bhowanibhick, age 55, son of Chowpaie ,5' 7.25",who originally came onthe Foyle (number 4) in 1880 to St. Lucia is registered to return toCalcutta, India on the Hereford, which sailed on 4 Sept 1890, with his wifeand at least 3 children. He last worked on Crown lands.
5. Sukram age 38, son of Mungha, 5' 2.5", who originally came on the Bann(number 237) in 1881 to St. Lucia elected bounty of 10 Pounds on 6 Mar 1891.He had a wife. He last worked at the Roseau estate
6. Dhowday , age 31, son of Onsori, 5' 4.5", who originally come on theBann (number 228) in 1881 to St. Lucia elected to return to India. He had abrother. He last worked at the Roseau estate.
7. Hunoomansing, age 35 who came on the Bracadaile (register number 1467 andwife register number 1468) in 1884 was assigned to the Dennery Usine inSeptember. He appeared to have died on 27 Nov 1884.
8. Hosanee, General Register number 1033, of Roseau Estate, received acertificate of exemption from labor on March 9, 1886.
9. Dhoni of Marguis Estate, who came to St. Lucia on the Leonidas in 1878,was imprisoned on 7 Sept 1878 for 14 days. Register number 415.
10. Thaibdin, age 35, son of Oree, 5'5" was listed as number 278 in theGeneral Register of Return Immigrants. He originally came to St. Lucia onthe Leonidas (number 205) in 1878, left on the Moy (number 183) on 5 Sep1888. He was last employeed at Perle Estate.11. Badari, age 22, son of Chadhary, came to St. Lucia on the Bracadaile in1884. His ship number 480 and register number 1625. He was a Kurmi by caste.He was assigned to the Bois d'Orange Estate.
12. Narrain son of Loroton deposited 16 pounds in the Moy (ship number 272)for the return voyage on 5 Sept 1888.
13. Motee registered 2 Pounds, 10 Shillings on 11 Mar 1885 to be sent toTeeka
14. Ondhar, who came on the Foyle (number 53) in 1880 died on25 March 1883.His 13 Pounds, 14 Shillings, and 11 pence were sent to India on 13th Jun1880
15. Bhookul age 43, son of Augnoo elected for bounty of 10 Pounds on 19 June1888. He originally came on the Leonidas in 1878. He was assigned to theEsperance Estate.Rambaran, age 25, son of Nimuth (Nimuta), 5" 0.5", was of the Ahir caste.He was from Ghazipur. He left Calcutta on the SS Roumania ( Ship's number 4)in 1891. He worked both for the Dennery Company, LTD (La Caye Estates) andSt. Lucia Central Sugar Factory Company, LTD (Crown Lands Estate).
16. Some individuals listed on Crown Land Estates circa 1891: Buckwala,Bowdha, Bundheo, Bundhoo, Eddhay, Sawonbar, Juspersad, Rohi, and Reetai.
17. The following individuals had money in the treasury, but upon deaththere was no heir to be found: Jecan, Purboll, Horill, Oudhai, Chingan,Budal, Kullu, and Sonichara. The highest amount at the time was 13 Pounds,14 Shillings, and 11 Pence belonging to Oudhai. This amount was lodged inthe treasury on 13 June 1889.
18. Durma came on the Bracadaile in 1885. Worked as a Chaukidar on theRoseau Estate.
19. Ram Dass was employed by the Ressources Estate according to the pay list
dated 25 Apr 1891.
20. Anwar, worked at Ressources Estate during 1891.
21. Oomur, worked at Ressources Estate during 1891.
22. Purmanon had a bania shop on Ressource Estate during 1891. So did Debi.They both most likely came to St. Lucia on the Bracadaile in 1884. KaliPershad sold rice and dal on the Ressource Estate during 1891.
23. Umeer Sing, only son of a mother still in India in 1891. Had acceptedthe 10 Pound bounty and had no intentions of going back to India. He was aChettri by caste (Kstriy). He had a wife and two children. He most likelyeither came to St. Lucia on the Foyle or Bann.
24. Ramnath (boy) was employed by Retraite Estate during 1891
Grenada
1. William Murray, after he became a Christian adopted this name from hisformer master. He owned a shop and a small cocao plantation. He alsoimported from America.
2. De Gale, also adopted his name from his former master. He owned privateproperty and had a provision shop. He gave the Cooly Mission the land tobuild its school as a present.
3. Udalli owned land and ran a shop. He was into horse racing. His sonGeorge Udalli was a clerk in the Police Magistrate's Office.
4. Cooman Sing ran a shop.
St. Vincent
1. Macleod had changed his name.
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Cyril Jardine May 28 1999, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Cyril Jardine)Date: 1999/05/28
Subject: [CARIBBEAN-L] Indian Migration to Jamaica
Because Trinidad is almost 50% Asian Indian, there seems quite a lot ofliterature available. My interest is whether there was a similar migrationto Jamaica and what info is available. My grandfather, bearing an Indiansurname: Toolsie (Tulsie?), came to US from Trinidad, but was born in 1873in Jamaica. This info came from the ship's log at the US National Archives.
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Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie Aug 14 1999, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: 1999/08/14
Subject: Ugheer Passenger List?
I am looking for any listing of the passenger list for the Ugheer whichtransported East Indian indentured laborers to Guyana in the late 1800's. Arelative of mine, Nuk Cheddie, was transported on that vessel along with histwo sisters. They worked on teh Diamond Estate in British Guiana, where hewas the Head Driver. He married a Sookia Singh and had ten children.
I will be posting his genealogy on my website:www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Resort/5913
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Ruth - Ann Jul 19 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Ruth - Ann)Date: 2000/07/19
Subject: surnames: soodeen, premdas, bunsee
Hello all,
I've been lurking for the past couple of weeks and have read through manyposts in the archives. I've just recently embarked on my own genealogicalresearch and I've found some very useful information from this list - thanksfor sharing!
Anyway, looking for info for my family has been quite difficult - I do havea chapter from Anthony de Verteiul's Eight East Indian Immigrants on mygreat-grandfather, Charles Clarence Soodeen, which is where most of my infois from (unfortunately I don't have the list of references and I can't seemto find the actual book!). He emigrated from India to Trinidad in 1861(aboard the clarence - this is when he got his name - but I can't seem tofind any records of that ship). He was prominent among the presbyterians,working mostly with teh Canadian Mission (yes, I've contacted the canadainpresbyterian archives, but I can't afford to pay $25/hr for a search withonly a possibility of finding mentions of his name)
I'd also like to find out about his first wife, Laura Jane Frances Heath(all I know about her is that she was an "englishwoman" and they married in1872; she died the following year)
I also went to the local LDS family history centre but records for Trinidadare next to nil!
Anyway, if anyone can give me any leads re finding info about the soodeens,or even premdas (Francis Arnold I believe is my grandfather's name -originally from Guyana, but I don't know the years) that would be great.
Finally, does anyone have contact info for Trinidad historian Anthony deVerteiul?
Thanks in advance for any help!
Ruth-Ann Soodeen
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fmwade Jul 31 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected]: 2000/07/31
Subject: Estate books of Trinidad
Does anyone know where one can find the Estate Books of the various sugar estates in Trinidad during the period of slavery and also during the period of Indian indentureship?
Hoping someone can help me.
Flavia Wade
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Richard Bond Jul 31 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: 2000/07/31
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I think they are all over the place, some are still at thegreathouses, others are in museums and some in Antiquarians. Some ofthem could be in London or New York. They were private property likethe books for a bar or any other business there is no one answer for allof them.
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John Weiss Jul 31 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (John Weiss)Date: 2000/07/31
Subject: Re: Estate books of Trinidad
Flavia
You can try the Registration and Compensation records in the PRO,which are not the same as Estate Books but list every slave byname, surname, family and description. My PRO search producedthis www address - it gives a large number of references fromclass T71 [you have to join this up as one line in your browser -it gets split in sending the e-mail]
http://catalogue.pro.gov.uk/ListInt/browse_keywords_frameset.aspfunction=Next+Page&lcode=T&class=71&subclass=
or this to start a new search (I entered Trinidad, letter code T,
class 71):
http://catalogue.pro.gov.uk/ListInt/browse_keywords_frameset.asp
But I am sure you are familiar with all these records, which areduplicated at the Red House, POS (or possibly now at the NationalArchives)..
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Dean de Freitas Jul 31 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Dean de Freitas)Date: 2000/07/31
Subject: RE: Estate books of Trinidad
In Father Anthony de Verteuil's book "Eight East Indians", he describesusing those records at the National Archives (Red House) in Trinidad. Henotes that some of the books are in good shape, while some of them where sofragile that he was not allowed to handle them.
Dean de FreitasTriniGenWeb Coordinatorhttp://www.rootsweb.com/~ttowgw/
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Richard B. Cheddie Aug 3 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: 2000/08/03Subject: Researching East Indians in the Caribbean
Here is a link for those interested in researching East Indian indenturedlabourers. There is a growing list of ships that brought these laborers tothe Caribbean
http://www.egroups.com/group/Bhatchaman
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John Weiss Aug 20 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (John Weiss)Date: 2000/08/20
Subject: Re: Ships and Indentured East Indians
Richard Cheddie gave a useful "minor list of ships thatTransported East Indian labourers to the Caribbean."
I see his list shows the SHEILA arriving in Surinam in 1883. Shemade an earlier visit to the Caribbean, her maiden voyage (if itis the same vessel) in 1877, leaving Calcutta on 1 Sep andarriving in Trinidad on 13 November, landing 624 out of 626embarked. Her journey is recorded in the Captain's account:
A Return to the Middle Passage: the Clipper Ship "Sheila", byCaptain W.H.Angel, edited by Ken Ramchand and Brinsley Samaroo(originally published in 1921, modern edition 1995, CIS, Port ofSpain, Trinidad)
John McNish [email protected]
Richard B. Cheddie Aug 29 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: 2000/08/29Subject: Re: Ships asn Indentured East Indians
I have to recheck this post. Somehow I am missing quite a few ship names anddestinations. I might have uploaded an older file by mistake. Most of thisinformation I gathered off of the web and through several Caribbeanassociations researching East Indians. I should be receiving anotherlisting of ships that went to Trinidad and Guyana in the near future. If youhave any info through your own research please e-mail it to me.
It is my goal to one day have the complete list of ALL ships thattransported East Indian Labourers to the Caribbean. The most up to date list
can always be found athttp://www.egroups.com/group/Bhatchaman
This site also contains other information about sources for those of usresearching our Indian Heritage.
Richard Bond Aug 29 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: 2000/08/29
Subject: Re: Ships asn Indentured East Indians
I wonder which of St Croix's families are descended from the one boatload that brought people from Calcutta in the 1860s. Most weredisillusioned by poor treatment and went back to India or moved toTrinidad but a minority stayed on. There are probably some people wherewe grew up who don't even realize that there patrilneals are Indian. Mygreat great grandfather Alfred Busby came by way of another island.
Richard B. Cheddie Aug 27 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: 2000/08/27
Subject: Updated List of Ships that Transported East Indian Laborers to the Caribbean Basin 8-27-00
I have attempted to compile a list of ships that brought and repatriatedindentured Indians to and from the Caribbean. This list is short right now.Just for Trinidad alone, 319 voyages were made.
ARRIVALS
DATE SHIPCOLONYLABOURERS ARRIVED
May 5, 1838 Hesperus British Guiana 156 of 170
May 5, 1838 Whitby British Guiana 263 of 267
May 30, 1845 Fath Al Razak Trinidad 225
1845 Blundell Jamaica ???
1854 Louis Napoleon Martinique ??For updated lists go to http://www.geocities.com/yuddh1/gateportal.htm
Richard Bond
I think that I can get it for you but could you help me sort out the Asians on Saba and Statia. I'm still trying to add to what I know about Alfred and Grace Busby
Oct 21 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: 2000/10/21Subject: Re: 1931 National Geographic: Saba & StatiaReply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author I think that I can get it for you but could you help me sort out theAsians on Saba and Statia. I'm still trying to add to what I know aboutAlfred and Grace Busby
Richard Bond
Oct 22 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: 2000/10/22Subject: Re: CARIBBEAN-L1931 National Geographic
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author As far as I have been able to piece it together Alfred was an Indiancontract laborer who may have escaped during an uprising on Nevis. Gracewas the daughter of a white with many local relatives whose mother wasan East Indian he brought back by some accounts and a Dominica Indian byothers.
When I was on Statia in 1968 I met an old woman named Busby with acandy shop whoknew my grandmother but had not seen her in many years. I could not findanything in the Statia records on Grace. She did have relatives namedSimmons, Solomon and Leverock. George Simmons administrator of St. Johnwas a relative.
Richard Cheddie
Nov 11 2000, 4:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: 2000/11/11Subject: 400+ Voyages of East Indian Indentured LaborersReply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this authorI finally did a major update on the list of voyages that indentured EastIndians made between 1834 and 1917.I have many gaps in my listings so if anyone has additional info please sendit to me to include in future updates.
http://www.geocities.com/yuddh1/IndenturedShips.html
Dean de Freitas
Nov 16 2000, 4:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Dean de Freitas)Date: 2000/11/16Subject: Re: {CARIBBEAN-L]Voyages of East Indian Indentured LaborersReply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this authoron 11/16/00 5:06 PM, Cyril Jardine at [email protected] wrote:
> I think that since "indentured" means there was some bond or contract, there> would have to be some records of the East Indians who arrived in the> Caribbean. Especially since not all survived the trip and commissions were> probably based on actual arrivals. Who would have kept these type of> records?
> ---> Cyril Jardine, voice: 301-881-4330, fax: 301-881-5914, [email protected]
According to Father Anthony de Verteuil in his book "Eight East IndianImmigrants", in Trinidad there are three types of registers kept at theNational Archives:
1. General Registers - Lists of immigrants by year, boat, name, estate theywere indentured to, etc.
2. Estate Registers - Sorted by estate and gives details about animmigrant's indenture period.
3. Ship's Registers - Lists of immigrants for each voyage including name,age, height, place of origin, etc.
In addition, Fr. de Verteuil notes that Plantation Lists were / are kept onthe individual plantations, and duplicate much of the info in the registers.
Note also that many of the registers at the National Archives are in poorcondition, incomplete, or missing.
Dean de FreitasTriniGenWeb Coordinatorhttp://www.rootsweb.com/~ttowgw/
From: Christel Monsanto, promoting Caribbean Art Nov 17 2000, 4:00 am
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "monsanto" <[email protected]>Date: 2000/11/17
Subject: Re: {CARIBBEAN-L]Voyages of East Indian Indentured Laborers
Three different ethnic groups were brought to Suriname, some of them leftafter their contract was finished, others stayed, others went to otherplaces in the Caribbean. You can search two databases, one for laborersfrom India and one from what is now Indonesia. Go to:
<<http://www.archief.nl/suriname>> A third database with Chinese workerswill be available later.
Richard Cheddie Nov 18 2000, 4:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: 2000/11/18Subject: Estates in the British Isles the Used East Indian Indentured LaborersAutoEstate Colony EstateName1 Trinidad Adela2 Trinidad Arandale3 Trinidad Aranguez4 Trinidad Aripero5 Trinidad Bagatelle6 Trinidad Barataria7 Trinidad Beaulieu8 Trinidad Beausejour9 Trinidad Bel Air10 Trinidad Belle View11 Trinidad Ben Laomond12 Trinidad Bien Venue13 Trinidad Birken Hil14 Trinidad Bon Accord15 Trinidad Bon Air16 Trinidad Bonasse17 Trinidad Bonne Aventure18 Trinidad Brechin Castle19 Trinidad Bronte20 Trinidad Broomage21 Trinidad Brothers22 Trinidad Buen Intento23 Trinidad Buenos Ayres24 Trinidad Camden25 Trinidad Canaan26 Trinidad Cane Farm27 Trinidad Carmelita28 Trinidad Caracas29 Trinidad Carolina30 Trinidad Caroni31 Trinidad Cascade32 Trinidad Champ Elysees33 Trinidad Cedar Grove34 Trinidad Cedar Hill35 Trinidad Columbia
36 Trinidad Concord37 Trinidad Concordia38 Trinidad Constance39 Trinidad Corinth40 Trinidad Coryal41 Trinidad Craignish42 Trinidad Cupar Grange43 Trinidad Curepe44 Trinidad Diamond45 Trinidad Dinsley46 Trinidad Dumfries47 Trinidad Edinburgh48 Trinidad El Dorado49 Trinidad El Reposo50 Trinidad El Rosario51 Trinidad El Socorro52 Trinidad Endeavor53 Trinidad Enterprise54 Trinidad Esmeralda55 Trinidad Esperance56 Trinidad Esperanza57 Trinidad Exchange58 Trinidad Fairfield59 Trinidad Felicity60 Trinidad Florissante61 Trinidad Forres Park62 Trinidad Frederick63 Trinidad Friendship64 Trinidad Fullerton65 Trinidad Garden66 Trinidad Garth67 Trinidad Glenroy68 Trinidad Golconda69 Trinidad Golden Grove70 Trinidad Green Hill71 Trinidad Guaracara72 Trinidad Harmony Hill73 Trinidad Harris Plain74 Trinidad Henry75 Trinidad Hermitage76 Trinidad Hindustan77 Trinidad Hope78 Trinidad Industry79 Trinidad Inverness80 Trinidad Jordan Hill81 Trinidad La Fortune
82 Trinidad La Gloria83 Trinidad La Horquetta84 Trinidad La Pastora85 Trinidad La Resource86 Trinidad La Retraite87 Trinidad La Romaine88 Trinidad Las Almas89 Trinidad Laurel Hill90 Trinidad La Vega91 Trinidad Laventille92 Trinidad Les Efforts93 Trinidad Los Angeles94 Trinidad Lothians95 Trinidad Macoya96 Trinidad Malgretoute97 Trinidad Marabella98 Trinidad Maracaas Bay99 Trinidad Mararaval100 Trinidad Mausica101 Trinidad McBean102 Trinidad McLeon Plain103 Trinidad Milton104 Trinidad Moka105 Trinidad Mon Desir106 Trinidad Mon Jaloux107 Trinidad Mon Plaisir108 Trinidad Mon Repos109 Trinidad Montrose110 Trinidad Mt. Pleasant111 Trinidad Mt. Stewart112 Trinidad Nelson113 Trinidad Ne Plus Ultra114 Trinidad New Grant115 Trinidad New Hope116 Trinidad Non Pariel117 Trinidad Orange Grove118 Trinidad Oropouche119 Trinidad Otaheite120 Trinidad Plamiste121 Trinidad Palmyra122 Trinidad Papourie123 Trinidad Paradise124 Trinidad Patna125 Trinidad Perseverance126 Trinidad Petersfield127 Trinidad Petite Morne
128 Trinidad Phillipine129 Trinidad Phoenix Park130 Trinidad Picton131 Trinidad Plain Palaise132 Trinidad Plaissance133 Trinidad Poole Syndicate134 Trinidad Providence135 Trinidad Reform136 Trinidad Retrench137 Trinidad Rio Clara138 Trinidad River139 Trinidad Rivulet140 Trinidad Rostant141 Trinidad San Antonia142 Trinidad San Felipe143 Trinidad San Gill144 Trinidad San Francisco145 Trinidad San Jose146 Trinidad Santa Clara147 Trinidad Seville148 Trinidad Siparia149 Trinidad Spring150 Trinidad St. Anns151 Trinidad St. Augustine152 Trinidad St. Charles153 Trinidad St. Claire154 Trinidad St. Helena155 Trinidad St. Johns156 Trinidad St. Madeleine157 Trinidad St. Marie158 Trinidad Stretham Lodge159 Trinidad Suzannah160 Trinidad Terre Promise161 Trinidad Toruba162 Trinidad Tortuga163 Trinidad Trafalgar164 Trinidad Trois Amis165 Trinidad Union166 Trinidad Union Hall167 Trinidad Valsayn168 Trinidad Verdant Vale169 Trinidad Victoria170 Trinidad Villa Franca171 Trinidad Vistabella172 Trinidad Washington173 Trinidad Waterloo
174 Trinidad Wellington175 Trinidad Williamsville176 Trinidad Woodbrook177 Trinidad Woodford Dale178 Trinidad Waterford Lodge179 Trinidad Woodlands180 St. Vincent Adelphi181 St. Vincent Bellevue182 St. Vincent Colonaire183 St. Vincent Grand Sable184 St. Vincent Langley Park185 St. Vincent Lot 14186 St. Vincent Mt. Bentink187 St. Vincent Mt. Greenan188 St. Vincent Orange Hill189 St. Vincent Rabacca190 St. Vincent San Souci191 St. Vincent Tourama192 St. Vincent Union193 St. Vincent Yambou Vale194 St. Vincent Argyle195 St. Vincent Arnos Vale196 St. Vincent Belair197 St. Vincent Belair198 St. Vincent Calder199 St. Vincent Cane Hall200 St. Vincent Carapan201 St. Vincent Glen202 St. Vincent Montrose203 St. Vincent Mt. Pleasant204 St. Vincent Rivulet205 St. Vincent Cane Grove206 St. Vincent Pembroke207 St. Vincent Questelles208 St. Vincent Mt. Wynne209 St. Vincent Peters Hope210 St. Vincent Rutland Vale211 St. Vincent Wallilabou212 St. Vincent Richmond213 St. Vincent Rose Bank214 British Guiana Vreed-en-Hoop215 British Guiana Vriedestein216 British Guiana Anna Regina217 British Guiana Diamond218 British Guiana Belle Vue219 British Guiana Waterloo
220 British Guiana Highbury221 British Guiana Devonshire222 British Guiana Non-Pareil223 British Guiana Friends224 Grenada Mt. Alexander Estate225 St. Lucia Castries226 St. Lucia Cul De Sac227 St. Lucia Soucis228 St. Lucia Roseau229 St. Lucia Anse La Raye230 St. Lucia Mabouya231 St. Lucia Dennery232 St. Lucia La Caye233 St. Lucia Richfond234 St. Lucia Retraite235 St. Lucia Crown Land236 St. Lucia Peru237 St. Lucia Pelute238 St. Lucia Blackbay239 St. Lucia Vieux Fort240 Jamaica Claredon241 Jamaica Westmoreland242 Jamaica St. Thomas
UHURUJAH Nov 19 2000, 4:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected]: 2000/11/19
Subject: East Indian Indentured Laborers (Book)
While everyone has been on the subject of East Indian indentured labor Ithought I might mention a book I recently found. The book is Fragments ofEmpire: Capital, Slavery, and Indian Indentured Labor Migration in theBritish Caribbean, by Madhavi Kale. It was published by the University ofPennsylvania Press in 1998. It is not great for finding ancestral names butit gives a good historical background and first hand accounts of the timefrom some people and of their plantations. Hope this helps someone.Stephanie Binns
James W. Cropper Dec 31 2000, 5:25 pm
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (James W. Cropper)Date: 31 Dec 2000 13:16:17 -0800Local: Sun, Dec 31 2000 5:16 pm
Subject: Plantation Owners in St Vincent
Hi Listers,
There are many old plantation maps of most Islands available. Chris Codhas made several from his personal archives available on his "HistoricAntigua and Barbuda" website.
Is anyone aware of any such maps or plans for St. Vincent? The CharlesShephard book mentions a Plan of the Island, as published John Byres, in1776 and lists the lot numbers. I am aware that a copy of this plan isin the PRO in London.
The only such map I have found is in the book is entitled " BecomingWest Indian - Culture, Self and Nation in St. Vincent" by Virginia HeyerYoung in 1993. There is a map entitled "John Byres's plan for thesettlement of St. Vincent, 1764. From D.L. Niddrie, "Eighteenth-CenturySettlement in the British Carribbean," Institute of British Geographers,publication no. 40, 1966."
The Map appears to be a computer drafted drawing with many plantationsshown on the South and West parts and with the North and East partscomprised of Carib and undisposed of land. Much of the map is shadedblack or cross-hatched representing Cultivable, Freehold, Leaseholdetc. However, it is not to scale and no names or lot numbers are given.
Any help would be appreciated.
Jim Cropper
Tian Uddenberg Jan 24 2002, 11:31 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Tian Uddenberg)Date: 24 Jan 2002 20:30:59 -0700Local: Thurs, Jan 24 2002 11:30 pm
Subject: Re:San Fernando Gazette Book
Craving the indulgence of the group, and as clarification:"Lists from the san Fernando Gazette 1865-1896" will be published thisSpring, and expressions of interest were solicited off-list from peoplewho have in the past expressed an interest in what it contains. Queries and comments regarding the pre-press announcement should beaddressed, off-list, to me, Tian Uddenberg, at my e-mail address above. This will be the last posting directly to the list concerning thepre-publication. We have both been quite careful not to breach the rulesabout advertizing directly in this forum, and ask your co-operation.Write me privately if you have an interest in the book, or a query.What does the book contain?Here is an overview:
Lists from the San Fernando Gazette, Trinidad, West Indies: 1865-1896 isdivided into fivesections or Books. Each Book is a set of lists containing as much detailas is given in the newspaper itself. There areno photos or illustrations.
Book I provides lists of property owners in the Borough of San Fernandowho are in arrears of their house rates.Researchers will find the name of the property owner, the address of theproperty, and in most cases, the name ofthe tenant or tenants, if the property was rented.
Book II comprises lists of Burgesses of San Fernando. These listscontain important information about propertyownership of individuals so qualified.
Book III is a compilation of Applications for Licenses to sellspirituous liquors in San Fernando, and gives, amongother information, the place of residence of the applicant as well asthe address of the licensed premises. The widevariety of surnames in these lists, including Chinese, East Indian, andPortuguese individuals, offers a glimpse of theextent of this entrepreneurial activity in San Fernando at the time.
Book IV is composed of two unusual lists—a Juror’s List for SanFernando, and a list of the Victims of theWaterspout incident of 1880 in Basseterre, St. Kitts.
Book V is an extracted list of birth, death and marriage announcements.This section is of value also to researchersoutside of San Fernando or even Trinidad and Tobago. Announcements werereprinted in a variety of newspapers ifthere was a family connection. A number of births, marriages and deaths
are recorded that occurred in Nevis,Jamaica, Grenada, British Guiana, England, Scotland, and Australia.
Thanks,Tian Uddenberg ( [email protected] )
Richard B. Cheddie Jun 26 2002, 10:48 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:47:45 -0400Local: Wed, Jun 26 2002 10:47 pm
Subject: Some Individuals in St. Lucia and Grenada circa 1891
The following bits of data was collected from the East Indies to St. Luciaby Surgeon-Major D.W.D. Comins, Protector of Emigrants, Calcutta. Printedat the Bengal Secretariat Press in 1893
St. Lucia
1. Budhu, age 20, son of Parabu. Caste: Turki Koiri from AzamgarhDistrict, Mohmadambad Thana, Walidpur village. Uncle's name Gulap, son ofDomon. Budhu signed a Form of Agreement for Intending Emigrant to St. Luciaon 15 Dec 1890 in Ghazipur, India
2. Pay list of Crown Lands Estate for the week ending 3 April 1886:Gujadhur, Horill, Hulass, Hoossanys, Intame, Joodhester, Joonab, Kalkasings,Kehane, Kessowar, Khiroda, Lachiman, Lakpetia, Lukkia Dilloo, Maimra,Manchoo, Mengaul, Mucktolia, Munnoosings, Naga, Najtookallys, Panchoo,Pemya, Phobagra, Poonia, Pajne, Prionauth, Raghoo, Rampaul Girlya, RampaulSanker, Rumsumhin, Ramyad, Resmu, Rutnu, Salamutalu, Snodunden, Shazjada,Shajurb, Sabnath, Simroo, Somnar Mengaul, Sukba, Sookhan, Sookra, SomraLalloo, Somra Nimmur, Sarukissen, Sutraton, Sucknu, Jakam, Burdia, Bundoo.
3. Pay list of Crown Lands Estate for week ending 10 April 1886: Notedifferent spellings for same names listed for 3 Apr 1886: Agnoocea, Augmo,Baijoo, Ballea, Barhoo, Bhagobutty L., Bhagobutty Ram, Bagwansahaie,Bhulloo, Beekham, Button Napoo, Bissessur, Bissessuree, Boodhun, Bundhoo,Bundhea, Boodna, Chakowree, Chootra, Chowtie, Chujjoo, Chumme, Dagull,Donie, Dilchandsingo, Doola, Dorlaum, Ekwara, Fokeer Mahomed, Gopee,Gujadhur, Horli, Hulass, Hoossany, Jutame, Joorhester, Jomal, Kalkasingo,Kihane, Kessmar, Khiroda, Luchiman, Lukpotia, Lukhina, Lukkia Dilloo,Mainwa, Manchoo, Mingnul, Mucktolia, Munnoosing, Naga, Naytookally, Panchoo,Penya, Phobagra, Poonea, Payne, Prionath, Raghoo.
4. Bhowanibhick, age 55, son of Chowpaie ,5' 7.25",who originally came onthe Foyle (number 4) in 1880 to St. Lucia is registered to return toCalcutta, India on the Hereford, which sailed on 4 Sept 1890, with his wifeand at least 3 children. He last worked on Crown lands.
5. Sukram age 38, son of Mungha, 5' 2.5", who originally came on the Bann(number 237) in 1881 to St. Lucia elected bounty of 10 Pounds on 6 Mar 1891.He had a wife. He last worked at the Roseau estate
6. Dhowday , age 31, son of Onsori, 5' 4.5", who originally come on theBann (number 228) in 1881 to St. Lucia elected to return to India. He had abrother. He last worked at the Roseau estate.
7. Hunoomansing, age 35 who came on the Bracadaile (register number 1467 andwife register number 1468) in 1884 was assigned to the Dennery Usine inSeptember. He appeared to have died on 27 Nov 1884.
8. Hosanee, General Register number 1033, of Roseau Estate, received acertificate of exemption from labor on March 9, 1886.
9. Dhoni of Marguis Estate, who came to St. Lucia on the Leonidas in 1878,was imprisoned on 7 Sept 1878 for 14 days. Register number 415.
10. Thaibdin, age 35, son of Oree, 5'5" was listed as number 278 in theGeneral Register of Return Immigrants. He originally came to St. Lucia onthe Leonidas (number 205) in 1878, left on the Moy (number 183) on 5 Sep1888. He was last employeed at Perle Estate.11. Badari, age 22, son of Chadhary, came to St. Lucia on the Bracadaile in1884. His ship number 480 and register number 1625. He was a Kurmi by caste.He was assigned to the Bois d'Orange Estate.
12. Narrain son of Loroton deposited 16 pounds in the Moy (ship number 272)for the return voyage on 5 Sept 1888.
13. Motee registered 2 Pounds, 10 Shillings on 11 Mar 1885 to be sent toTeeka
14. Ondhar, who came on the Foyle (number 53) in 1880 died on25 March 1883.His 13 Pounds, 14 Shillings, and 11 pence were sent to India on 13th Jun1880
15. Bhookul age 43, son of Augnoo elected for bounty of 10 Pounds on 19 June1888. He originally came on the Leonidas in 1878. He was assigned to theEsperance Estate.Rambaran, age 25, son of Nimuth (Nimuta), 5" 0.5", was of the Ahir caste.He was from Ghazipur. He left Calcutta on the SS Roumania ( Ship's number 4)
in 1891. He worked both for the Dennery Company, LTD (La Caye Estates) andSt. Lucia Central Sugar Factory Company, LTD (Crown Lands Estate).
16. Some individuals listed on Crown Land Estates circa 1891: Buckwala,Bowdha, Bundheo, Bundhoo, Eddhay, Sawonbar, Juspersad, Rohi, and Reetai.
17. The following individuals had money in the treasury, but upon deaththere was no heir to be found: Jecan, Purboll, Horill, Oudhai, Chingan,Budal, Kullu, and Sonichara. The highest amount at the time was 13 Pounds,14 Shillings, and 11 Pence belonging to Oudhai. This amount was lodged inthe treasury on 13 June 1889.
18. Durma came on the Bracadaile in 1885. Worked as a Chaukidar on theRoseau Estate.
19. Ram Dass was employed by the Ressources Estate according to the pay listdated 25 Apr 1891.
20. Anwar, worked at Ressources Estate during 1891.
21. Oomur, worked at Ressources Estate during 1891.
22. Purmanon had a bania shop on Ressource Estate during 1891. So did Debi.They both most likely came to St. Lucia on the Bracadaile in 1884. KaliPershad sold rice and dal on the Ressource Estate during 1891.
23. Umeer Sing, only son of a mother still in India in 1891. Had acceptedthe 10 Pound bounty and had no intentions of going back to India. He was aChettri by caste (Kstriy). He had a wife and two children. He most likelyeither came to St. Lucia on the Foyle or Bann.
24. Ramnath (boy) was employed by Retraite Estate during 1891
Grenada
1. William Murray, after he became a Christian adopted this name from hisformer master. He owned a shop and a small cocao plantation. He alsoimported from America.
2. De Gale, also adopted his name from his former master. He owned privateproperty and had a provision shop. He gave the Cooly Mission the land tobuild its school as a present.
3. Udalli owned land and ran a shop. He was into horse racing. His sonGeorge Udalli was a clerk in the Police Magistrate's Office.
4. Cooman Sing ran a shop.
St. Vincent
1. Macleod had changed his name.
"Guy Grannum" Jun 6 2003, 5:43 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Guy Grannum")Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 09:43:05 +0000 (UTC)Local: Fri, Jun 6 2003 5:43 am
Subject: East Indian and Chinese Indentured Immigration W.I.
This discussion has been extremely useful - in terms of bibliographies.
I wonder if anyone can offer advice on a question I posed a while ago - thatof vital records for the East Indian community.
Many, if not most, of the East Indian immigrants predated civil registrationand as most were not Christians would not be recorded in the usual Caribbeansources - namely parish registers.
What was the practice for recording their births, marriages anddeaths/burials, if at all? May be this was oral tradition as practiced inIndia. I understand that in Trinidad Muslim marriages were not recogniseduntil about 1936 and Hindu marriages until about 1946 - this meant that such'married' couples were considered common-law relationship and were basicallysingle from a legal point of view and any children were illegitimate, thisalso effected laws of probate for intestacy (dying without leaving a validwill) and later British citizenship and belonging (as citizenship passedthrough legitimate fathers).
However, for such marriages not to be recognised must mean that thesemarriages occurred. Were such events written down?
I have tried numerous social histories and websites - there is plentydescribing the migrations, immigration controls and working conditions butreally there is nothing of serious use to the genealogist.
Another non-Christian group of post emancipation labourers, which againpredate civil registration, are the Chinese labourers. They first arrived inTrinidad in 1806 although the next waves were not until the 1840s in Guyana,Jamaica and Trinidad. Was anything recorded about their life events?
However, very few Chinese women migrated until the 1860s and I understandthat the normal practice was for Chinese men to return to China in order tomarry and would remain. But after 1860 some 'marriages' must have takenplace according to homeland practices - may be their numbers were too smallto establish their own places of worship and that births and marriages wentunrecorded. I assume that burials would occur but in the municipalcemeteries rather than church yards.
There is an excellent site relating to the Chinese in Guyana by TrevSue-A-Quan at http://www.rootsweb.com/~guycigtr/
I welcome any thoughts and advice.
Thanks
Guy
----- Original Message -----From: "Richard Allicock" <[email protected]>To: <[email protected]>Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 9:16 AMSubject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I.
> Hi Listers,
> I think I have come to the end of the research material for East Indian
Indenture Immigration to the West Indies.
> I took a look at Chedie's List on his Website "East Indian Laborers in the
Caribbean 1838 to 1930."
> I have produced some material for the places in Brackets. The places that
are unbracketed are yet to be provided for in terms of historical researchmaterial.
> So others are free to pitch in and hlep to complete the List and thethread.
> Please stick to the Subject line. Thanks.
> Here's the list of places done and not done:
> Belize, Fr. Guiana, Grenada, Guadaloupe, [Guyana], [Jamaica], Martinique,
Nevis, St. Croix, St. Kitts, St. Lucia, [St. Vincent], [Surinam] and[Trinidad]
"Guy Grannum" Richard Thank you very much for your detailed response - and for the wonderful bibliographies. In short the answer seems to be that there are no religious records and few state records unless the authorities needed to intervene. In common with their labouring predecessors one needs to try plantation records and other tangential records. This means that researchers won't be able to check the usual sources. I had forgotten about the role of the protectors of immigrants/labourers (previously protectors of slaves) however I'm not sure if all islands had these officials - some reports of protectors of slaves c1824-1834 can be found in The National Archives (Public Record Office) but only for Trinidad, British Guiana and St Lucia; I know that Barbados had stipendiary magistrates that had a similar role but I'm not aware of any reports being routinely forwarded to the Colonial Office. I assume that if they survive these will be with the archive or may be still with the immigration department. There are quite a few interesting articles and pages on the internet such as: An essay on how Hinduism developed differently in Guyana and Suriname at http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2001/1-2/2001-1-08.shtml. It mentions that the first Hindu cremation in Guyana didn't occur until 1956. and http://www.caribbeanhindu.com/Arrival.htm - which gives some interesting statistics. Searching on the authors takes you into further into unexplored territories. Guy <snip>
Jun 11 2003, 2:47 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Guy Grannum")Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:47:38 +0000 (UTC)Local: Wed, Jun 11 2003 2:47 pm
Subject: Re: East Indian and Chinese Indentured Immigration W.I.
Richard
Thank you very much for your detailed response - and for the wonderfulbibliographies.
In short the answer seems to be that there are no religious records and fewstate records unless the authorities needed to intervene. In common withtheir labouring predecessors one needs to try plantation records and othertangential records. This means that researchers won't be able to check theusual sources.
I had forgotten about the role of the protectors of immigrants/labourers(previously protectors of slaves) however I'm not sure if all islands hadthese officials - some reports of protectors of slaves c1824-1834 can be
found in The National Archives (Public Record Office) but only for Trinidad,British Guiana and St Lucia; I know that Barbados had stipendiarymagistratesthat had a similar role but I'm not aware of any reports being routinelyforwarded to the Colonial Office.
I assume that if they survive these will be with the archive or may be stillwith the immigration department.
There are quite a few interesting articles and pages on the internet suchas:An essay on how Hinduism developed differently in Guyana and Suriname athttp://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2001/1-2/2001-1-08.shtml. It mentionsthat the first Hindu cremation in Guyana didn't occur until 1956.
and http://www.caribbeanhindu.com/Arrival.htm - which gives some interestingstatistics.
Searching on the authors takes you into further into unexplored territories.
Guy
"Richard Allicock" Jun 17 2003, 7:20 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Richard Allicock")Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:19:55 +0000 (UTC)Local: Tues, Jun 17 2003 7:19 pm
Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. Names
Some-one pointed out that Indian names could also be formed by adding two names together, like Bhagat+Singh to get Bhagatsingh. This is quite true. I did not want to deal with this until we had gotten further into the history of East Indians in the British Colonies in the West Indies, as we were talking about Anglicisation and Creolisation of the names. The above example is more appropriate to observe outside of the process or situation of Anglicisation in which we will find more of the fracture of previously compounded names.
I am also interested in this process not for academic purposes but also practical ones for genealogical purposes. In the absence of so much records, and also in some cases the presence of too many records, as in the case of too many persons with the same names, I am interested in being aware of the process of Anglicisation/Creolisation for the clues that names can give on the whereabouts of persons and in a situation where dating them might be ambiguous..
An indentured immigrant person could arrive with a name spelt one way on the ships manifest, arrrive on a plantation and imediately or within a few years have their name spelt slightly differently, depending upon who made the initial record and who kept the records for the next five and later three years. Some-one might even move to another plantation after one contract expired and get their name again spelt differently, by Englishmen, Scotsmen, Irish, and even Welsh and Cornish men, (all with their various county and regional accents) and not to forget the East Indian "Drivers" "Headmen" themselves. All of the foregoing would have a different ear, different levels of familiarity to East Indian names, different levels of education, different ways of spelling even in English. Then one can have one's children start attending schools and churches and have the names spelt variously yet again. And the orthographic and phonetic abilities of the recordists would also change over ti!me from one generation to another.
Names can give clues in terms of Anglicisation and non-Anglicisation. Anglicised names tell us that the person in question was in a situation of Anglicisation and in a period of Anglicisation. The anglicising situations are of course on the plantations and in the schools and churches. The process of anglicisation would be more relevant to people who will later move off the plantation and into the towns and villages of the British and Creoles. On the plantations the sheer force of numbers and community pressure would serve slow the process of Anglicisation/Creolisation beyond initial name changes. Once the East Indians on the Plantations started to be able to better "staff" their communities with arrivals of Pandits/Pundits and Moulvis from India and later Pakistan or other colonies, the name changes would revert in many instances to what was common "back-home". But this would mostly affect new births and fore-names rather than surnames. And we also get more Hindu and Muslim !names as fore-names for those religious groups, but a mixture or "Indian" and English and purely English fore-names for the Christian East Indians.
We also have to add the fact that many East Indians did not take opportunity for educating their children the way that the Creoles and Chinese did. Also, we should take into account that it was not until close to the turn of the 1900 that the male - female ratio was equalised and stable families were becoming the norm. This meant increasing pressure to school one's children and prepare them for on or off plantation jobs. So even for the on-plantation East Indians, the pressure for Anglicisation was growing, with ultimately movement to the towns and villages, where they would likely be taught by anglicised creole teachers. This pressure increased dramatically after the cessation of Indentureship/Immigration in 1930, and with the prospect of Independence after 1953. Between these two water-shed years the East Indian Community would produce their own Anglicised teachers thus furthering the process of Anglicisation, and the promotion and retention of anglicised names. Later suc!h teachers and students would even found their own schools.
The legal requirement that birth, marriages and deaths be registered with the Registrar-General would further serve to fix name changes in whatever form it was registered,
(anglicised and non-anglicised), and that again can give clues to the degree of anglicisation of the parties concerned.
The need to produce documents for legal and business purposes - land and other property records, taxes etc., - for schooling one's children, for travel etc. would again fix names.
But then we also have to consider the recording of Censuses, and when the recording of names would be recorded by some-one else, we are back to phonetics, how the name appears to sound to some-one's ear. After general schooling people (especially the younger rather than older) could at least spell their own names, so the recording of names would get better after the 1960's.
All of these factors can give clues as to who was writing the names and in what period or even situation.
English itself was not generally standardised until after 1876 with the Education Act that made education compulsory for school age children. Before that it was the English Translation of the Latin Bible that did a great deal to standardise written English. Before that it was London English that was the ideal of English speech, for business purposes, but the writing could be idiosyncratic until after 1876, and based phonetically on regional accents and level of education of the writer.
By the time we get to the indenture and immigration of East Indians in the 1840's, the British had been in India via the British East India Company going on two and half centuries. From (1600-1773) the BEI Co.; from 1773 UK parliamentary control via a Governor-General.
By the 1840's the British Army had already standardised the way that Indian names from all the different languages of the recruits should be spelt or transliterated to be more precise.
But before that we got:
"A dictionary English and Hindostany : to which is annexed a copious and useful alphabetical list of proper names of men, women, towns, cities, rivers, provinces, countries &c. a great majority of which appear to be of Persian, Arabic or Indian origin." Vol.2
by Henry Harris, Surgeon, Madras Army (1759-1822), Madras : printed for the author, 1790, 345p. appx. of proper names,
Vol. 1 (containing a grammar) never printed, titled: Guide to the Orthography of Indian Proper Names with a list showing the true spelling of all post towns and villages in India.
Printed by William Wilson Hunter, Calcutta,187,pp.146. Office of the Superintendent of Govt.
By the 1870's we get:
"The duty of English-speaking Orientalists in regard to united action in adhering generally to Sir William Jones's Principles of Transliteration, especially in that case of Indian Languages : with a proposal for promoting a Uniform International Method of Transliteration so far at least as may be applicable to Proper Names."
By Monier Monier-Williams, 1870, 21p.
I do not know if it was published because there is a note at head of page: "Rough proof, not yet ready for printing off".
And:
"A Guide to the Orthography of Indian Proper Names with a list showing the true spelling of all post towns and villages in India."
By William Wilson Hunter, British Academy London.
Calcutta, 1871, 146 p. Office of the Superintendent of Govt. Author.
And:
"Indian Domestic Economy and Receipt Book, with Hindustanee romanized names ... Eighth edition, revised.
By Robert Flower Riddell
Calcutta : Thacker, Spink & Co. 1877, 596 p.
By 1917 it seems that there was still a need to deal with Arabic and Persian based names, and hence this is relevant to the way in which Muslim names may have been spelt from c. 1870, or before, allowing for the time-lag between practice and formalisation.
So we get:
"The British academy transliteration of Arabic and Persian; report of the committee appointed to draw up a practical scheme for the transliteration into English of words and names belonging to the languages of the Nearer East."
By H. Milford,
Oxford university press 1917? 17 p. Published for the British Academy, London.
Notes: From the Proceedings of the British academy, vol. VIII.
Preface signed, C. J. L. stated that: The system "practically agrees with that adopted more than fifty years ago by the government of India for place-names in official use and for the names of soldiers in the Indian army, with such minor modifications as experience from time to time showed to be desirable."
The above references, I think would be useful for seeing how the names would have been transliterated before and after the East Indian Indentured Immigrants got to the British Colonies.
I hope all the above makes a further contribution to the Topic.
Richard
christopher codrington Jun 18 2003, 10:13 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (christopher codrington)Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:13:32 +0000 (UTC)Local: Wed, Jun 18 2003 10:13 am
Subject: RE: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. Names
Hi Richard
I have not read your posting in full but you have brought up severalintriguing issues which are very pertinent to carib gen and learning ingeneral. There is only one which at this time I can respond to and that isyou interest in the variability of language and spelling.
London standard did not exist until 1920 or thereabouts. Spelling wasentirely phonetic and very regional. I have always dreamt of what it mighthave sounded like on Antigua in 1741 with Scotsmen and Irishmen andEnglishmen and dutch and Spaniards all occupying the same island trying tomak a killing at raising sugar or in your case .....nutmeg. My family, wholeft Antigua in 1741 to take on free lands in Jamaica, eventually grewarrowroot and were apparently very successful at it, but by that time therewas already a movement towards uniform spelling. No doubt some of thisevolved from the consistent travel of mail and correspondence although Ihave no cogent knowledge of a connection between one evolution and theother. I regret that I cannot indulge the list and yourself in more of thisstuff but until my hand gets better it is impossible to type at length.
I enjoy your postings and hope you will continue to grace us with your
ponderings
ChrisCod
C.M. Codrington("american version # 1952)Editor: Carib GenWeb "Historic Antigua and Barbuda" web-siteCo-Administrator: [email protected]: Barbados Museum Historical Society, Museum of Antigua and Barbuda Historical and Archaeological Society.
"James W Cropper" Jun 9 2003, 9:35 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("James W Cropper")Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:35:38 +0000 (UTC)Local: Mon, Jun 9 2003 9:35 am
Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
In a discussion off-line with Richard there are other threads to the topic of the East Indian immigration which may be of interest. One is the interaction between the immigrants and the Islanders.
My family on St. Vincent had interesting relationships with the new arrivals. One member Robert Porter CROPPER (1829- ?) learned to speak their language when the "coolies" started arriving in SV in 1861 . In the 1850's he was a Graduate of Marischal College in the University of Aberdeen and in SV "instituted evening classes for the instruction of young men in history, science, and philosophy". The Presbyterian Church on St. Vincent appears to have "imploded" in the 1850's perhaps due to the Minister's involvement in women or money or both ... but I digress. RPC seems to have acquired the assets and tried to keep the school going by turning it into a Mechanics' Institute. Some additional info on his son :-
From Page 86 of the book :- "Called to Witness - Profiles of Canadian Presbyterians" - editor W. Stanford REID.". The man who offered himself was the Rev. James Cropper, a man whose qualifications made him a natural for the post. Although not much is known of his early life we do know that he came from a devout Christian home. He was the son of R.P. Cropper, the Protector of East Indians of St. Lucia and a lay preacher for the Presbyterian Church. James Cropper learned to speak Hindu fluently and was able, like his father, to converse directly with the new arrivals from India. He and his father had begun the Presbyterian work among the East Indians of St. Lucia; he had trained teachers and catechists there; and he had served some time as a missionary in Trinidad. Cropper, who was slightly "coloured", so impressed the Trinidad Mission Council that they sent him to Pine Hill in
Halifax for theological training to prepare him to lead the Indian people of St. Lucia. ." [Pine Hill is now Dalhousie University in Dartmouth, N.S.]
More on Rev'd James Bassnett CROPPER (1865-1945) [known to Dorothy KEW as "The Old Goat"] in British Guiana :-Arthur Charles Dayfoot. "The Shaping of the West Indian Church, 1492-1962." Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 1999.Page 197: "The [Presbyterian] mission only became permanently established in 1896, with the arrival of the Revd James B. Cropper who for forty years became such a prominent figure that even after his time it was often referred to as 'the Cropper Church.' About 1880 the government had begun to provide free land and encourage workers who had completed their indenture to settle in unoccupied areas (notably in those suitable for rice growing) rather than to return to India. Cropper, who supported this policy, was appointed as 'Superintendent of East Indian Settlement' by the government, but after some years went back to full time church work."
JBC had a sister Selina CROPPER (1875 - ?) who also was in British Guiana. Richard found a reference - "Miscellaneous letters and reports, relating to the Canadian Presbyterian Mission in British Guiana and the Presbyterian Church of Guyana". The material is in the Edinburgh University Library, Scotland. One item is a pamphlet or book by Selina CROPPER - "Practical training for British Guiana Girls".
Sorry for so much CROPPERANA! Perhaps other listers have information on the interaction between the immigrants and the Islanders.
Jim C.
"Ernest M. Wiltshire" Jun 9 2003, 12:22 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Ernest M. Wiltshire")Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:22:51 +0000 (UTC)Local: Mon, Jun 9 2003 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
Jim this is interesting: why did the Presbyterian Church disappear fromSt. Vincent? When my father was posted there in 1949 as a Methodistminister, the Governor (Administrator strictly speaking) was aPresbyterian, but came to the Methodist Church as there was noPresbyterian one, and he tended to go to the Anglican Church only forofficial occasions. Was there a financial/sexual scandal 100 yearsearlier?
Ernest M. Wiltshire
"James W Cropper" Jun 10 2003, 8:29 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("James W Cropper")Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:12:06 +0000 (UTC)Local: Tues, Jun 10 2003 8:12 am
Subject: Re: St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
Ernest wants to start another thread regarding financial/sexual/religion! Iam the last one to discuss the subjects, but I'll try. The Church ofScotland (Presbyterian) on St. Vincent when through various problems overthe years. By 1949 there was no Church due to a scandal in the 1930's. Theproblems in the 1850's were financial and "from the departure of theMinister to Europe on account of ill health" and the retirement of theschool's Head Master.
A Methodist Minister briefly mentioned the problems in the book "A Voicefrom the West Indies" by Rev'd John HORSFORD - 1856 - St. Vincent.Page 353 - " ... There are here three presses, - each respectable, liberal,and exhibiting ability; but on reading-rooms, and no libraries, except thesmall remnants of the Presbyterian Library, which, from the departure of theMinister to Europe on account of ill health, and the scattered state of thechurch and congregation, has, like the school, fallen into the hands of Mr.Robert Cropper, a true patriot an a Graduate of Marischal College in theUniversity of Aberdeen, who has recently instituted evening classes for theinstruction of young men in history, science, and philosophy, and who iscontemplating the establishment of a Mechanics' Institute, respecting whichfuller information will be shortly given by means of a pamphlet now in thepress and soon to be published. ..."Page 354 - " ... The same may be said of the Presbyterian school. Mr. Hart,the former master, gave cordial satisfaction to the parents, and won theaffections of the pupils; and, on his retirement to his - native land,Scotland, in 1853, he was succeeded by Mr. R. Cropper, who is in every waycompetent, and whose interest in the rising generation is deep anddisinterested. This school was denominational; and though the Assembly'sCatechism was taught in it, it was liberally conducted. ..."
The best place for information was a website of the Historical Society ofSt. Vincent which no longer exists. The former Presbyterian Church is now the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The old website had :-"This place of worship in central Kingstown for the Seventh Day Adventistswas once the Kirk of the Scottish Presbyterians who settled in St. Vincentafter the Monmouth Rebellion in England. The Church of Scotland or as it waslocally called the Scots' Kirk, is a large stone edifice situated at the
corner of Granby and Sharpe Streets. It was first built in 1839 andreconstructed in 1880 by William Smith, a leading landowner who, besidesowning estates in St. Vincent, possessed a few lots of land on Granby andSharpe Streets. The building is historically significant because, unlikeSt. George's Cathedral, it was not built with state funds. It was supportedby tithes given by Scottish settlers who wanted to continue the form ofworship practised in the Mother Country. Therefore, Alexander Porter, theowner of the largest number of estates in St. Vincent at the time, thoughtit was his duty - as an elder - to support, financially, the Kirk. In 1902,the year before he died, he gave the church an endowment of five hundredpounds sterling, on condition that only a Scotsman be minister."
"The building was enlarged in 1927. It had on its roof a beautiful woodenventilator with a weathercock. This ventilator was demolished last year whenrepairs were done to the roof. A manse was built east of the church, on TheGreens not too far from the church, on an elevated area which commanded agood view of Kingstown Harbour. During the 1930's a scandal rocked the Kirk;it's membership fell and finally the church was closed down. In 1952 it wassold to the Seventh Day Adventist who use it for regular worship especiallyon Saturdays. Because it is the largest the centre of activity and replacesthe first Adventist Chapel at Montrose. This was a wooden building which wasdedicated on 12th July 1903, two years after the first Adventistmissionaries arrived in St. Vincent."
Jim C.
"Richard Allicock" Jun 15 2003, 11:29 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Richard Allicock")Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 03:29:29 +0000 (UTC)Local: Sun, Jun 15 2003 11:29 pm
Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
I found James Cropper's posting, which I have edited below, very interestingand very re-freshing compared to the British Guiana experience and maybethat of Trinidad and Jamaica. I will leave others on the list knowledgeableabout the situation in the last two countries to say what the situation wasthere. But in British Guiana, where the London Missionary Society had gottena foot-hold before slavery was abolished, and since the LMS was the localarm of the Abolitionists movement, the LMS did not take kindly to thearrival of the East Indians.
In fact, like the abolitionists, they had opposed the introductionIndentureship on the grounds of a New Slavery. This was all well and good,but their sentiments towards the East Indians, was inculcated by theex-slaves and their descendants, and I think did a great deal of harm inregard to the relationships between the two races.
The East Indians were seen as Heathens, and the ex-slaves who were beingChristianised were preached upon against associating with the Heathens andabout their Heathen practices. To be fair, the Missionaries all over theworld did the same, even when the Heathen were the unchristianised fellownatives of whatever territories the missionaries were in. But in a situationwhere the ex-slaves already felt that the East Indians and other Indenturedwere taking their jobs and hence the food out of their mouths, thepreachings of the Missionaries did lasting harm. One can only imagine whatmay have been said about the Catholic and hence Popish and IdolatrousPortuguese/Madeirans.
And yet boys will be boys, and it was much to chagrin of the missionaries,when the young children and young adults started tagging along behid theHindus when they celebrated their Festivals. Very soon certain festivalswere banned, for being disruptive to the work schedule on theEstates/Plantations, but one also suspects also for the exhibition ofHeathenism.
And then there was the matter of dress or undress. It must be rememberedthat by the 1840's it was already the Victorian era, with its abhorrence ofpublic nudity. Whereas before the end of slavery slaves were routinely insome state of undress, at the end of slavery an Ordinance was passedspecifying the way that males and females should be dressed. Males in shirtsand trousers, females in frocks and petticoats and a head-scarf.
Then along came the East Indians who could be seen in states of undress, themen clad in only loin-cloths and a "turban" and the females workingbare-breasted in the fields, as the slaves had done before them. More fuelto the faggots of the Missionaries' anti-Heathen preachings.
It is refreshing to see how early one of the Croppers, a lay precher withthe Presbyterian Church, and Protector of Indians, jumped in to Christianisethe East Indians, even going a far as learning their language.
It is also not surprisising that it was the Canadian Presbyterians that ledthe way. It was also this group of Prebyterians that did much toChristianise and educate a significant number of East Indians to produce ananglicised East Indian middle class in British Guiana.
One can also remark upon the title "Protector of Indians" mentioned by bothJames Cropper and Guy Grannum. In British Guiana, there had long beenProtector of Indians, the Amerindians, a post begun by the Dutch and kept bythe British. These Protectors were backed up by no less than the person ofthe Inspector-Geeral of Police.
Maybe there were no Native Amerindians in St. Vincent by the time that theEast Indians started to arrive, but was the title passed on from a time whenthere were?
In British Guiana, the protector of the East Indians was theImmigration-Agent-General. One of them (James Crosby by name) did his job sowell, and was so trusted by the East Indians, that many times in disputeswith the Estates/Plantations, they would walk off and attempt to go and see"Crosby". Even when he was no longer there his office was known as "Crosby",and the East Indians would still want to see "Crosby" regardless of the nameof successive Immigration-Agent-General.
A great post James. Thanks.
Richard
"James W Cropper" Jun 10 2003, 8:29 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("James W Cropper")Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:12:06 +0000 (UTC)Local: Tues, Jun 10 2003 8:12 am
Subject: Re: St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
Ernest wants to start another thread regarding financial/sexual/religion! Iam the last one to discuss the subjects, but I'll try. The Church ofScotland (Presbyterian) on St. Vincent when through various problems overthe years. By 1949 there was no Church due to a scandal in the 1930's. Theproblems in the 1850's were financial and "from the departure of theMinister to Europe on account of ill health" and the retirement of theschool's Head Master.
A Methodist Minister briefly mentioned the problems in the book "A Voicefrom the West Indies" by Rev'd John HORSFORD - 1856 - St. Vincent.Page 353 - " ... There are here three presses, - each respectable, liberal,and exhibiting ability; but on reading-rooms, and no libraries, except thesmall remnants of the Presbyterian Library, which, from the departure of the
Minister to Europe on account of ill health, and the scattered state of thechurch and congregation, has, like the school, fallen into the hands of Mr.Robert Cropper, a true patriot an a Graduate of Marischal College in theUniversity of Aberdeen, who has recently instituted evening classes for theinstruction of young men in history, science, and philosophy, and who iscontemplating the establishment of a Mechanics' Institute, respecting whichfuller information will be shortly given by means of a pamphlet now in thepress and soon to be published. ..."Page 354 - " ... The same may be said of the Presbyterian school. Mr. Hart,the former master, gave cordial satisfaction to the parents, and won theaffections of the pupils; and, on his retirement to his - native land,Scotland, in 1853, he was succeeded by Mr. R. Cropper, who is in every waycompetent, and whose interest in the rising generation is deep anddisinterested. This school was denominational; and though the Assembly'sCatechism was taught in it, it was liberally conducted. ..."
The best place for information was a website of the Historical Society ofSt. Vincent which no longer exists. The former Presbyterian Church is now the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The old website had :-"This place of worship in central Kingstown for the Seventh Day Adventistswas once the Kirk of the Scottish Presbyterians who settled in St. Vincentafter the Monmouth Rebellion in England. The Church of Scotland or as it waslocally called the Scots' Kirk, is a large stone edifice situated at thecorner of Granby and Sharpe Streets. It was first built in 1839 andreconstructed in 1880 by William Smith, a leading landowner who, besidesowning estates in St. Vincent, possessed a few lots of land on Granby andSharpe Streets. The building is historically significant because, unlikeSt. George's Cathedral, it was not built with state funds. It was supportedby tithes given by Scottish settlers who wanted to continue the form ofworship practised in the Mother Country. Therefore, Alexander Porter, theowner of the largest number of estates in St. Vincent at the time, thoughtit was his duty - as an elder - to support, financially, the Kirk. In 1902,the year before he died, he gave the church an endowment of five hundredpounds sterling, on condition that only a Scotsman be minister."
"The building was enlarged in 1927. It had on its roof a beautiful woodenventilator with a weathercock. This ventilator was demolished last year whenrepairs were done to the roof. A manse was built east of the church, on TheGreens not too far from the church, on an elevated area which commanded agood view of Kingstown Harbour. During the 1930's a scandal rocked the Kirk;it's membership fell and finally the church was closed down. In 1952 it wassold to the Seventh Day Adventist who use it for regular worship especiallyon Saturdays. Because it is the largest the centre of activity and replacesthe first Adventist Chapel at Montrose. This was a wooden building which wasdedicated on 12th July 1903, two years after the first Adventistmissionaries arrived in St. Vincent."
Jim C.
"Ernest M. Wiltshire" Jun 9 2003, 12:22 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Ernest M. Wiltshire")Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:22:51 +0000 (UTC)Local: Mon, Jun 9 2003 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
Jim this is interesting: why did the Presbyterian Church disappear fromSt. Vincent? When my father was posted there in 1949 as a Methodistminister, the Governor (Administrator strictly speaking) was aPresbyterian, but came to the Methodist Church as there was noPresbyterian one, and he tended to go to the Anglican Church only forofficial occasions. Was there a financial/sexual scandal 100 yearsearlier?
Ernest M. Wiltshire
"James W Cropper" Jun 9 2003, 9:35 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("James W Cropper")Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:35:38 +0000 (UTC)Local: Mon, Jun 9 2003 9:35 am
Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
Hi Listers,
In a discussion off-line with Richard there are other threads to the topic of the East Indian immigration which may be of interest. One is the interaction between the immigrants and the Islanders.
My family on St. Vincent had interesting relationships with the new arrivals. One member Robert Porter CROPPER (1829- ?) learned to speak their language when the "coolies" started arriving in SV in 1861 . In the 1850's he was a Graduate of Marischal College in the University of Aberdeen and in SV "instituted evening classes for the instruction of young men in history, science, and philosophy". The Presbyterian Church
on St. Vincent appears to have "imploded" in the 1850's perhaps due to the Minister's involvement in women or money or both ... but I digress. RPC seems to have acquired the assets and tried to keep the school going by turning it into a Mechanics' Institute. Some additional info on his son :-
From Page 86 of the book :- "Called to Witness - Profiles of Canadian Presbyterians" - editor W. Stanford REID.". The man who offered himself was the Rev. James Cropper, a man whose qualifications made him a natural for the post. Although not much is known of his early life we do know that he came from a devout Christian home. He was the son of R.P. Cropper, the Protector of East Indians of St. Lucia and a lay preacher for the Presbyterian Church. James Cropper learned to speak Hindu fluently and was able, like his father, to converse directly with the new arrivals from India. He and his father had begun the Presbyterian work among the East Indians of St. Lucia; he had trained teachers and catechists there; and he had served some time as a missionary in Trinidad. Cropper, who was slightly "coloured", so impressed the Trinidad Mission Council that they sent him to Pine Hill in Halifax for theological training to prepare him to lead the Indian people of St. Lucia. ." [Pine Hill is now Dalhousie University in Dartmouth, N.S.]
More on Rev'd James Bassnett CROPPER (1865-1945) [known to Dorothy KEW as "The Old Goat"] in British Guiana :-Arthur Charles Dayfoot. "The Shaping of the West Indian Church, 1492-1962." Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 1999.Page 197: "The [Presbyterian] mission only became permanently established in 1896, with the arrival of the Revd James B. Cropper who for forty years became such a prominent figure that even after his time it was often referred to as 'the Cropper Church.' About 1880 the government had begun to provide free land and encourage workers who had completed their indenture to settle in unoccupied areas (notably in those suitable for rice growing) rather than to return to India. Cropper, who supported this policy, was appointed as 'Superintendent of East Indian Settlement' by the government, but after some years went back to full time church work."
JBC had a sister Selina CROPPER (1875 - ?) who also was in British Guiana. Richard found a reference - "Miscellaneous letters and reports, relating to the Canadian Presbyterian Mission in British Guiana and the Presbyterian Church of Guyana". The material is in the Edinburgh University Library, Scotland. One item is a pamphlet or book by Selina CROPPER - "Practical training for British Guiana Girls".
Sorry for so much CROPPERANA! Perhaps other listers have information on the interaction between the immigrants and the Islanders.
Jim C.
"Richard Allicock"
Jun 14 2003, 7:32 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Richard Allicock")Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:32:27 +0000 (UTC)Local: Sat, Jun 14 2003 7:32 pm
Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. Names St. Vincent
Elford Cottle wrote 08/06/03:
"There was a mention in a will, for James Cottle, dated 31May, 1920, recorded as otherwise known as Gobrudhun, a shopkeeper of Layou. He also indicated - that should his son Adolphus die before coming of age, his whatever remained of his belongings were to be sent to India to Dealshand Cottle., an Indian connection.
These are all findings that are very puzzling to me, that is why it is so important for me to identify these people to see where they fit into my genealogical findings."
My Reply:
Hi Elford,
I have not forgotten your query. I have found Cottles in India. There was an Alfred and Mary Cottle, who Christened a daughter, Alice Maria in Bengal on the 17th of Aug. 1870. Source: India Office Ecclesiastical Returns-Bengal Presidency, Misc., India.
I found this record on the LDS website "family search.org". So there were Cottles in India.
Could Dealshand Cottle instead of a person be a company name such as Deals and Cottle? with Deals being another person's name? I did not find any Deals in India but I did find some in Barbados for 1848 and 1858, a marriage and a Christening respectively. You can also search the familysearch.org site for those.
But a more promising line of research might be to reconsider the speling of the name Dealshand. It could be that the name was Deelchand, pronounced and written as Deal + Shand. Since we have seen that there were Cottles in Bengal in 1870, it might be worth your while to follow up on the Cottle family above.
On a related matter, the name Gobrudhun can be Anglicised and Creolised to Goberdan. Could Gobrudun have also been of the Indian Cottles? If they were Indian quite likely.
If they were missionaries then he might have been giving his estate to charity or to the family of European Cottles who might be expected to know Gobrudhun's kin. It also seems that he knew that they were still in India, and might have been in continuous contact, although the will did not say where exactly.
I hope this helps.
Richard
"Richard Allicock" Jun 7 2003, 9:02 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Richard Allicock")Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 01:02:36 +0000 (UTC)Local: Sat, Jun 7 2003 9:02 pm
Subject: Re: East Indian and Chinese Indentured Immigration W.I.
Hi Guy,
I am quite sure that Births and deaths would have been recorded, by thePlantation/Estate Doctors and Drivers to give to the Overseers and by thelatter to the Plantation Managers/Attorneys or Owners where the latterexisted. This material (especially deaths) had to be recorded for theColonial and India Office, if not at the beginning of the experiment,certainly as it progressed. The Plantations/Estates had to keep meticulousrecords for personnell replacement reasons, but also to protect/defendthemselves against the charge of the abolitionists, and later theMissionaries and later the Immigration-Agent-General that they wereintroducing and practicing a New Slavery, with as much carelessness andbrutality as the previous slave-owners. In the early years, manyplantations, formerly had slaves, and many of the indentured, East Indiansand Madeiran Portuguese, moved into slave quarters, and not to forget the200 or so Germans who were first indentured, and all of whom promptly died,as did many of the early Portuguese/Madeirans. So the abolitionists whoopposed Indentureship and later missionaries were keeping a watchful eye,and frequently raised a hue and cry. So such records were important as theywould determine how the experiment was to continue and how long it wouldlast. It was stopped a few times, but lasted close to a hundred years.
I am of course talking about the situation in British Guiana and much ofwhat comes below comes from there.
Records would be part of the Plantation records, with summaries being sentor not sent until requested or exposed in the series of subsequentenquiries, to the colonial authorities locally. The deaths of Hindus wouldalso be a public health matter as it required cremation. So this may havebeen another way in which such deaths would appear in the records. But I
suspect this would appear a little later after the experiment ofindentureship began, and in keeping with Public Health reform in Englanditself, and in the Colonies and in the case of Guyana and England, suchreform was spurred by the fear of the same scourge, Cholera. I am sure thatall deaths had to be certified by a Doctor. It was also the case that asuspicous death would require a police investigation. So such deaths wouldprobably appear in the local police records. The Muslims and laterChristians would have burial records if only because land had to be setaside for cemetaries. These would also have to be in the Plantation recordsfor medical and police reasons.
This brings us to marriages which would also appear in Estate/Plantationrecords and also police records. The Plantation had to allocate housing tothe labourers. Where in the records a male and female were placed in thesame lodging, this would indicate some kind of conjugal relationship. Itmust be remembered that such marriages would have been apparently informalaffairs, but were very real to those entering into them. Not the gaudyaffairs we are now accustomed to in the West, or what we see portrayed inmost Indian movies.
Informal in India among the poor, and informal in the colonies, not onlybecause they were poor, but more so because the community and kinshiprelations were largely absent in the colonies. Once the community had been"rebuilt" and I use that word very loosely, marriages did become more as weknow it to-day, a community and a "dress-up" affair. Also, discretionaryincome was not likely to go into a marriage ceremony, with or without aPandit or a Moulvi. The latter were largely absent for a long time beforethe community grew in size, as they were not likely to be knowinglyindentured by the agents in India, and when they did emerge religiousleaders, they were seen and treated as trouble-makers.
But it must be remembered that marriage and divorce among Hindus and Muslimscan be a personal ritual performed by the male. This was likely to be thecase in the absence of a fully "staffed" community. Discretionary incomewould go into jewellery, a form of saving and decoration, and an indicationof married status, and also wherever possible into savings that could besent back or taken back to India, and not into a marriage ceremony.
But I did mention police records above in relation to marriages. Why wouldthis have been the case? Precisely because of the disproportionate ratio ofmales to females, other males or females themselves were suspect and evenguilty of compromising such marriages. When only suspect, there would becases of "wife-beating" and assaults between the males. When guilty, therewould be cases of assault, attempted murder and actual murder of males andfemales. So there would be information in the plantation/estate/policerecords of assaults, trials, subsequent fines, imprisonments or whipping,
and hangings.
Much the same can be said of the Chinese. But the latter's case was a littledifferent. Many of these if not married before they left China, could alsobe married after they left, in both cases in the hope that their wife couldjoin them later, as it was important in Chinese ancestor worship that therewould be some-one to tend to the ancestors remains. Many Chinese wouldsupport a wife they had never seen, or not seen, for many years, (or neversee if any of the parties died) for such "religious' reasons. The Chinesealso were not averse to meet their sexual needs from among the Creole women.Many who apparently were "married" or apparently "married" usually showedthe farce of it when such "wives" especially Chinese "wives" weresubsequently transferred to another as a result of gambling. In the case ofGuyana, the East Indian were stereotyped for wife beating and murder, butnot the Chinese. The latter was more noted for praedial larceny in the earlyyears, and later for gambling, opium dens and brothels (of mixed and creolewomen).
Many Indians on the Plantations, for as long as they remained on thePlantations did not have the opportunity to mix and mingle with the Creolewomen, and there was considerable animosity between the Creoles and the EastIndian groups from the very beginning for religious/cultural and economicreasons. But then there developed the class of the "time-expired" EastIndians. These were those who had served their contracts, and who did notreturn to India. Many could not, as they did not acquire enough money totake back home to their villages to pay the Pandit for ceremonies to removetheir loss of caste from crossing the Kala Pani or the Black water, that isthe Ocean. Many may have also incurred debts that they did not or could notrepay when they were on contract, or could not repay if they returned. (Manywere too sickly from the ravages of the Plantation or from chronic diseasesof parasites, including malaria. Many were also addicted to Bhang or Ganja.Among the Chinese many were addicted to Opium, which would also determinehow much they would be able to work and how much money they could earn).
So from the latter groups many did end up in the Creole villages, and towns,and some did end up cohabiting and having children with Creole women. At atime when the Creoles were being Christianized, such unions would notproduce records of births in the Church registers. Because they would beseen as "fornication" and worse yet with the Heathen. The adults of suchunions when they "accepted Christ" would be recorded and so would theirchildren, who accepted Christ along with their parents and thosesubsequently born in the particular denomination of their parents.
Meanwhile the larger Indian Community was being slowly rebuilt, by newindentures and time-expired Indians, and a better ratio of males to females.There were also many who also lived outside the Estate/Plantation. By the
time of the end of Indentureship, there was a significant community based onRice cultivation, and a Middle Class of Educated mostly Christianised EastIndians. The same can be said of the Chinese and their community. BothOn/Off Estate/Plantation East Indians and Chinese became the beneficiariesof the General Schemes of Colonial Development beginning after WWII, interms of education, and health care. This also means more and betterrecords. There is likely to be better records for the Christianised EastIndians and Chinese than non-Christian others.
I do not recall when the marriages for Hindus and Muslims were legallyrecognised in Guyana. I do not think they ever were before 1970. I knowthat their marriages had also to be recorded by the Registrar, decadesbefore their Pandits and Moulvis ceremonies were recognised as legal. Thelatter I think happened soon after Republican status in 1970.
But there were the Censuses that began with the Slave registers andcontinued with the Decennial General Population Censuses from the 1831.Indians and others were included in the subsequent ones. For a number ofyears I have been hoping to find the actual Census returns for the personalinformation that such would contain, but I have not been yet successful. ButI mention them here in case any-one has seen or know of such. I also fearthat they may have been disposed of because of destruction from age andheat. Enquiries to the Guyana Archives failed to ascertain what is there,returns? or summaries? and I know that there was a general house-cleaning ofthe Parliament Buldings Rotunda in the '50's and/or '60s, where such recordswere likely to be kept as part of Treasury records.
So here I will end this. I hope the above helps. It is sketchy in detail andlargely limited to Guyana, but I am sure relevant to Jamaica and Trinidad.
Let me know if I answered any of your original query. Thanks.
Richard
Tim Anderson Jun 28 2002, 2:49 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: Tim Anderson <[email protected]>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:48:27 -0400Local: Fri, Jun 28 2002 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: Some Individuals in St. Lucia and Grenada circa 1891 -- Thomas Bell (Indian)
I have been using the microfilms belonging to the LDS of the Public
Records of Grenada. Currently I am scanning through the Wills andDeeds. I had planned a post with a number of the names found (andwill do that soon). Something that I did notice as soon I startedworking with Grenada records of this period is the apparent necessityof the records office to follow the name of any East Indian witheither "Coolie" or "Indian". Bell is one of the family names that Ihave been watching so I made a note of the deed by which Thomas Bell(Indian) purchased land in St. Patrick's parish. I also noticed onthe land map of the plot that he had purchased that his neighbors weresimilarly labeled -- although the neighbors' names were distinctlyEast Indian.Tim
Tim Anderson Jun 28 2002, 2:49 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: Tim Anderson <[email protected]>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:48:27 -0400Local: Fri, Jun 28 2002 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: Some Individuals in St. Lucia and Grenada circa 1891 -- Thomas Bell (Indian)
I have been using the microfilms belonging to the LDS of the PublicRecords of Grenada. Currently I am scanning through the Wills andDeeds. I had planned a post with a number of the names found (andwill do that soon). Something that I did notice as soon I startedworking with Grenada records of this period is the apparent necessityof the records office to follow the name of any East Indian witheither "Coolie" or "Indian". Bell is one of the family names that Ihave been watching so I made a note of the deed by which Thomas Bell(Indian) purchased land in St. Patrick's parish. I also noticed onthe land map of the plot that he had purchased that his neighbors weresimilarly labeled -- although the neighbors' names were distinctlyEast Indian.Tim]
Richard B. Cheddie Jun 30 2002, 12:48 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 00:47:03 -0400Local: Sun, Jun 30 2002 12:47 am
Subject: Re: Some Individuals in St. Lucia and Grenada circa 1891 -- Thomas Bell (Indian)
I am not so sure how much the religious establishment influenced EastIndians in Grenada to change their names, but it was a big deal in St.Lucia. I have been researching East Indians in St. Lucia for years and atevery turn I find that the Catholic Church was instrumental in anglocizingEast Indians names there.
Tim, I am looking forward to your list of individuals. Sometimes this may bethe keystone to help others who are researching their history.
I would be particularily interested in the names of ships that transportedEast Indian indentured servants to Grenada. I have compiled lists onTrinidad, Surinam, St. Lucia, St. Vincent, and some to Guayana, St. Kitts,Martinique, Guadeloupe, Jamaica, and Nevis.
Recommendation to Distribute Coolies from the Ship Maidstone in Grenada
Richard B. Cheddie Jul 2 2002, 11:13 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:50:57 -0400Local: Tues, Jul 2 2002 10:50 pm
Subject: Recommendation to Distribute Coolies from the Ship Maidstone in Grenada
The Committee appointed by His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor todistribute the coolie Immigrants arrived by the ship "Maidstone" bed to recommendthat the following should be the distribution.
Plantation Number approved for Males Females Total Pudars
1 Grand Bacolet 15 9 2 11 2 Hope 15 9 2 11 3 Thuilliries 10 7 1 8 1 for all 3 4 Upper Latante 10 7 1 8 5 Crochee 20 11 2 13 1 for both 6 Carriere 20 11 2 13
7 Conference 15 9 2 11 1 for both 8 Belmont 15 10 2 12 1 9 Mount Rose 30 17 3 20 1 10 Mount Reuil 20 11 3 14 11 Chambord 20 10 3 13 12 Plain 20 10 3 13 1 for all 3 13 Morne Fendue 20 10 3 13 14 Lafortune 20 10 3 13 15 Snell Hall 20 10 3 13 1 for all 3 16 Rivier Sallee 20 10 3 13 1 17 Marli 20 10 3 13 1 18 Mount William 20 10 3 13 19 Duguesne 20 10 3 13 20 Samaritan 20 10 3 13 1 for all 3 370 201 50 251 10
Note: The Maidstone was the first ship to transport indentured EastIndian laborers to Grenada. The ship left India with 375 Indians, but arrived in Grenadaon May 1, 1857 with only 289. Eighty-Six died during the voyage.
Richard B. Cheddie Just to give you some additional mortality of some of the other ships that transported East Indians to the Caribbean Basin: 1. Merchant to British Guiana in 1857 lost 120 of its 385 immigrants 2. Dilharrie to Trinidad in 1872 lost 44 of its 478 immigrants 3. Bann to Trinidad in 1887 lost 53 of its 582 immigrants 4. Eveline to Trinidad in 1857 lost 61 of its 302 immigrants 5. Scindian to Trinidad in 1857 lost 49 of its 223 immigrants 6. ***Salsette to Trinidad in 1858 lost 106 of its 197 immigrants *** 7. Koomar to Trinidad in 1865 lost 85 of its 407 immigrants 8. Rhone to Trinidad in 1895 lost 109 of its 690 immigrants I have to confirm that the Souvenance lost all 376 immigrants when it sank after leaving Pondicherry to Martinique. "Richard Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]... - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> This mortality is about par with the earlier West African slave trade.
Jul 3 2002, 12:29 pm
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:29:10 -0400Local: Wed, Jul 3 2002 12:29 pm
Subject: Some other mortality on East Indian Immigrants Indentured in the West Indies
Just to give you some additional mortality of some of the other ships that
transported East Indians to the Caribbean Basin:
1. Merchant to British Guiana in 1857 lost 120 of its 385 immigrants2. Dilharrie to Trinidad in 1872 lost 44 of its 478 immigrants3. Bann to Trinidad in 1887 lost 53 of its 582 immigrants4. Eveline to Trinidad in 1857 lost 61 of its 302 immigrants5. Scindian to Trinidad in 1857 lost 49 of its 223 immigrants6. ***Salsette to Trinidad in 1858 lost 106 of its 197 immigrants ***7. Koomar to Trinidad in 1865 lost 85 of its 407 immigrants8. Rhone to Trinidad in 1895 lost 109 of its 690 immigrants
I have to confirm that the Souvenance lost all 376 immigrants when it sankafter leaving Pondicherry to Martinique.
Richard B. Cheddie Jul 19 2002, 4:58 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 04:58:13 -0400Local: Fri, Jul 19 2002 4:58 am
Subject: A Couple of 1878 posts concerning the initial importation of indentured Indians to St. Lucia.
Here are a couple of 1878 posts concerning the initial importation ofindentured Indians to St. Lucia. Taken from a bad copy hence the ? marks.
====================
Sir Michael Hicks Brach 9th March 1878
Sir,
I have the honor to transmit a dispatch from Mr. Du Vieuxadministrator of the Government of St. Lucia, reporting with references tothe previous correspondence noted in the margins upon the manner in which heproposes that funds should be raised to meet the expenses of CoolieImmigration in that Island. (Information in margin hard to read: February1878, Sep 1877)
2. I also transmit copies of Memoranda drawn up by Mr. Du Vieux,for my information before his departure upon certain points of details withregard to the reception, allotment and supervision of the Immigrants; aswell as with regards to the necessity for the suppression of squatting inSt. Lucia.
3. Mr. Du Vieux in his Dispatch, Aug (?) 6 recommends theestablishment of a regular dist (?) continuous system of Immigration fro thefuture to the extent of 200 Coolies per annum (paragraph 8 & 19) (Margin:St. Lucia)
4. To make the necessary financial provision for this purpose heproposes to take power to raise a loan of £15,000 and to impose taxation(paragraph 24, 25, 26, 27) calculated to produce annual Revenue of £5,000which together with the sum of £1,200 (at percent devoted to paying off theexisting Immigration loan of the Colony but available in 1880) would amountto £6,750, an amount efficient after deducting 7 percent or £1,050 forinterest and sinking Fund in the loan of £15,000, to provide the sum of£28.10.0 per head upon a yearly importation of 200 Coolies.
5. The forgoing propositions are based on the assumption thatSt. Luca will have it in her power to become a regular Coolie importingColony, but having received a telegram yesterday (margin: 8th March 1878)from the Office now administering the Government of St. Lucia, announcingthat 579 Coolies left Calcutta for the Island on the 28th January, I havebeen called upon to decide what course is to be taken to raise funds for thepresent importation and have addressed Mr. Dix in a Dispatch of which Ienclose a copy approving of the introduction of an Ordinance for effecting aloan not exceeding £15,000 and instructing him to take the other measureimmediately necessary for the reception of these Immigrants. (margin: para23, 9th Mar 1878)
6. I am not in a position to report now more fully my own viewswith regard to the various matters submitted to me in Mr. Du Vieux'sDispatch but I hope to do so by the mail of the 30th Instant as I shall havehad an opportunity before then of visiting St. Lucia and conferringpersonally with Mr. Dix and the leading members of the community.
==========================
The ?
Sir M.E. Hicks Brach
Sir,
I have the honor to transmit the enclosed dispatch from theOfficer Administering the Government of St. Lucia containing the Report ofthe Protector of Immigrants in that Colony for the year 1878 together withthe usual statistical statements appended thereto.
2. It would appear from the report that the number of deathsduring the last eight months of 1878 among the 580 newly imported Immigrantsat St. Lucia was 26 giving and annual death rate of 67.23 per thousand whileat Grenada in 9 months it was 19 our of 458, giving an annual death rate of55.30. In St. Vincent on the other hand the death rate among theacclimatized coolies for the year was under 10 per thousand. (margin: videdispatch Grenada 2:26. 11 Feb 1879. vide dispatch St. Vincent 2:39 3Apr1879)
"Richard Allicock" Jun 5 2003, 12:03 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Richard Allicock")Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 04:02:54 +0000 (UTC)Local: Thurs, Jun 5 2003 12:02 am
Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. St. Vincent
Remnants of the great coolie scramble : East Indian immigration to the Windward Islands, with special reference to St. Vincent, 1860-1880
By Arnold Thomas
Postgraduate seminar papers / CS/92/2; 1992 [7p]Tables presented to a seminar on 24 November 1992
University of London Institute of Commonwealth Studies; University of London Institute of Latin American Studies
Richard B. Cheddie Jul 3 2002, 5:08 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:07:15 -0400Local: Wed, Jul 3 2002 5:07 pm
Subject: Some Names from the Futtle Rozak 30th May 1845
Ship: Futtle Rozak 30th May 1845 Name Father's Name Sex Age
1 Pohuruth Suroop Male 20 2 Sookra Khadoo Male 15 3 Kuto Sooful Male 30 4 Dookhee Darhoo Male 22 5 Hullodhur Gobardhun Male 18 6 Anhateh Darhoo Male 24 7 Chowdory Aukalee Male 18 8 Bundhoo Darhoo Male 19 9 Bauchoo Darhoo Male 16 10 Bolem (Cannot read properly) Mohes Male 23 11 Gopaul Sawah Male 30 12 Curmun Darhoo Male 27 13 Sunkur Jaloo Male 25 14 Munee Bohore Male 27 15 Mohun Jakoo Roy Male 18 16 Buznauth Dhunray (cannot read ending) Male 27 17 Auhach Maighoo Male 20 18 Sownah Madhow Male 25 19 Bhaden Puteram Male 27 20 Minia Huriram & Mungul Male 21 Munsaram Bheka Male 30 22 Burmessur Sumrow Male 28 23 Gungaram Chamoo Male 24 24 Subram (Cannot read properly) Khoodea Male 22 25 Bithoe Khoodea Male 18 26 Cannot read. Properly ? Roy Mohun Roy Male 23 27 Cannot read. Properly ? Sing Persad Sing Male 27 28 Dahee Sing Sobrun Sing Male 16 29 Sukroo Jugernauth Male 28 30 Roopchand Jugroop Male 53 31 Dhunaram Sam Male 30 32 Cannot read properly Jeebun? Sawah Male 25 33 Cannot read properly ? *hee Aukale Male ? 34 Cannot read below this line
Note: This is the first ship that brought indentured East Indians toTrinidad. It was very difficult trying to read some letters: ee, I, u, w, n, m, J, T, P
This file is also located at the East Indian Genealogical Group at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bhatchaman/
Richard B. Cheddie Jul 3 2002, 8:05 pm
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:04:45 -0400Local: Wed, Jul 3 2002 8:04 pm
Subject: Compilng Data on East Indian Laborers on the Caribbean
I have spent the past week doing intensive and extensive on-line research onthe Internet searching for data on East Indian (Hindu and Muslim) indenturedlaborers transported to the Caribbean Basin/ West Indies. What I have foundis that in the past two years the interest of fourth to sixth generationtransported Indians is at an all time high, higher than one might expectafter 150 years of our people's trek across West Indian countries, buildingas we went. Unfortunately, the data available to these aroused researchersis next to nil. In the past two years I have not seen anything new to whatI have discovered elsewhere posted on the net to help these new researchers.
East Indians laborers were taken to Jamaica, St. Croix (Danish West Indies),St. Kitts (St. Christopher), Nevis, Guadeloupe, Martinique, St. Lucia, St.Vincent, Grenada, Trinidad, Guyana (British Guiana/ Demerara),Suriname(Danish Guiana), French Guiana, and Belize. Most researchers,professional or otherwise, have posted tidbits on Suriname, Trinidad,Guyana, and St. Lucia, but for the other coutries hardly anything has beenposted to aid the lay genealogist.
The government of Suriname has done the best to provide data on individualIndians transported there during the indenturship period. Take a look atthis massive undertaking at: http://www.archief.nl/suriname/index.html .Some new scholars from Guyana is currently in the process of convincingtheir government to mirror this endeavor, but until then the data availableon the net on individual East Indians and their voyage are only those postedas a by product of my personal research into my and my wife's past.
There are several reseachers out there that have a wealth of valuable infofor which most of us would give a right arm or left kidney. The foremostresearcher in Trinidad is Shamshu Deen [email protected] . He has accessto individual records on laborers there. Currently there is none for Guyana.I guess by default, I am the one for St. Lucia. Beyond this I am not awareof anyone for the other islands.
There is a lot of data that are being held by the individual East |Indianresearcher or one of their relatives. What I propose is that theseindividuals post as much detail as they have on this newsgroup or elsewhere.The emigre pass, ship list/ ship number, register number, data from birthcertificate, data listed in current books, documents, pamphlets,
certificaes, etc. should all be posted on this site. From this we couldcompile a database that could give us a better understanding of the IndianDiaspora in the West Indies.
If you got it or access to it - get it and post it. Let us help us to helpourselves.
Richard B. Cheddie Sep 2 2002, 12:37 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 12:33:32 -0400Local: Mon, Sep 2 2002 12:33 pm
Subject: East Indians in French Guiana?
I have been searching for any information on East Indian indenture laborersthat were transported to French Guiana (Cayenne) and as a whole I have notfound much info on that country.
Richard Bond Sep 2 2002, 1:45 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:18:36 -0400 (EDT)Local: Mon, Sep 2 2002 1:18 pm
Subject: Re: East Indians in French Guiana?
In contrast with Guyana and Suriname there were not many East Indians.
The demographic profile is similar to the French islands with theexception of a group of Hmong Laotians and Aboriginal Indians.
One thing that is intersting is the number of black St. Luciandescendants who for many years had dominated the water taxi business.
Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie Jun 5 2003, 12:47 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie" <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 00:47:29 -0400Local: Thurs, Jun 5 2003 12:47 am
Subject: More Ships Transporting East Indians to British Guiana
IAC INDO GUYANESE HISTORY LESSON 5
COOLIE SHIPS: TYPE AND SIZE
APPROXIMATELY 239,000 emigrants from Bharat (India) including a small
number of paid passengers or casuals crossed by Kaalaa Paanii in 244 ships
which made a total of 534 voyages from India to British Guiana between 1838
and 1917. The Kaalaa Paanii was crossed by 234 sailing ships which made 493
trips, and by 10 steamships which made 41 voyages.
In the early years, the ships employed were wooden sailing vessels commonly
built of teak. In 1861, however, when James Nourse entered this
transportation field, his company began building iron sailing ships.
Sandbach Tinne and Company, a rival shipping company, soon followed suit.
By the 1880s, wooden sailing ships had been replaced almost entirely by
iron sailing ships.
Simultaneous with the gradual passing of the wooden sailing ships, the
world was turning from sail to steam, and the employment of steamships
naturally came up for consideration. Although it was suggested in the 1860s
that the use of the steamships to transport emigrants would be cheaper,
that mortality rates would be significantly lower and that the duration of
voyages would be significantly shorter than if sailing ships were used,
only five steamships crossed the Kaalaa Paanii to British Guiana before the
1908-09 shipping season, making a total of seven trips.
The size of the ships employed increased as the years passed, since ship
owners found the building of larger ships generally more economical. In the
mid-19th century, sailing ships generally carried between 300 to 400
emigrants. For example, during the 1858-59 shipping season, the following
eight vessels delivered 2720 emigrants: (1) Latona, 693 tons, 317; (2)
Marchioness of Londonderry, 766 tons, 372; (3) York, 940 tons, 386; (4)
Victor Emanuel, 955 tons, 358, (5) Plantagenet, 806 tons, 334; (6) Aurora,
536 tons, 234; (7) Ellenborough, 1031 tons, 352; and (8) Simla, 1444 tons,367. By the early 1870s, however, vessels of over 1000 tons and transportingbetween 400 and 500 were the norm, and this was illustrated by the fact
that in the 1872-1873 shipping season, only two ships of 13 that sailed
from India were below 1000 tons. These ships, the James Nourse-owned Ganges
of 843 tons and the Gainsborough of 973 tons delivered 396 and 373 persons,
respectively. The other ships landed between 403 (Trevelyan) and 561
persons (S.S.Enmore).
By the mid-1880s, heavier ships were transporting between 500 and 600
Indian emigrants. For example, during the 1883-84 shipping season the
following five ships delivered 2731 emigrants: Bann, 1667 tons, 591: Foyle,
1598 tons, 564; British Peer, 1428 tons, 559; Ganges, 1443 tons, 490; and
The Bruce, 1145 tons, 527.
By the early 1900s, ships were generally between 1400 and 1750 tons and
routinely transported between 550 and 650 persons. With the increasing use
of steamships after 1908, numbers transported per ship rose significantly
to between 750 and 900 persons. For example, during the 1909-1910 shipping
season the following three ships delivered 2508 emigrants: SS Sutlej; 2153
tons, 844; SS Ganges, 2151 tons, 847; and SS Indus, 2110 tons, 817.
As the years passed, therefore, fewer but larger ships were used totransport similar amounts of emigrants.
"Richard Allicock" Jun 7 2003, 2:11 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Richard Allicock")Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 06:11:11 +0000 (UTC)Local: Sat, Jun 7 2003 2:11 am
Subject: Chinese & East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. contiinued
British Guiana East Indian and Chinese Missions: Report of committee from July, 1890 - June, 1891.
Published by British Guiana Coolie Missions. Georgetown. 1891. 21p. Microform. Original held by: Bodleian Library, Oxford University
Report of the Commissioners appointed to enquire into the treatment of immigrants in British Guiana
[re: Chinese and East Indians]
Published by Great Britain Colonial Office. (Great Britain. Parliament); 393. HMSO. 1871. 203 p.Contents: Appendices, pt. 1. (C.393-1) HMSO, 1871.--pt. 2. (C.393-11) HMSO, 1871
Further correspondence on the recommendations of the report of the Commissioners appointed to enquire into the treatment of immigrants in British Guiana.
[re: Chinese and East Indians}
Published by Great Britain Colonial Office. SE- C (Great Britain. Parliament) ; 641. HMSO. 1872. 118 p
The New Slavery: an account of the Indian and Chinese immigrants in British Guiana, etc.
By Joseph Beaumont
London: W. Ridgway. 1871. 112 p.
Report to the West India Committee [on British Guiana Commission of inquiry into the treatment of immigrants]
(re: Chinese and East Indians)
by T.H. Cowie
Published by The West India Committee. British Guiana Commission of inquiry into the treatment of immigrants. 1870. 28 p.; 3rd item in volume.
Digest of the report of the Commissioners appointed to enquire into the treatment of immigrants in British Guiana
[re:Chinese and East Indians]
by Charles Skipper
Published by Great Britain Colonial Office. 80 p. 13th item in bound volume of pamphlets
Caribbean Asians : Chinese, Indian, and Japanese experiences in Trinidad and the Dominican Republicby Roger Sanjek
Published by Asian/American Center working papers. New York : CUNY, Queens College. 1990
Indentured labour in the British Empire, 1834-1920
by Kay Saunders
London: Croom Helm. 1984. 327p : ill : maps, Bibliography included.
[The above work contains Inter alia: The West Indies and indentured labour migration / William A. Green -- The impact of indentured immigration on the political economy of British Guiana/ Alan H. Adamson - - Indentured labour in Trinidad, 1880-1917 / Marianne D. Ramesar -- From slavery to indenture / M.D. North-Coombes -- Labouring men and nothing more / Brij V. Lal.]
"James W Cropper"
Hi Listers, In a discussion off-line with Richard there are other threads to the topic of the East Indian immigration which may be of interest. One is the interaction between the immigrants and the Islanders. My family on St. Vincent had interesting relationships with the new arrivals. One member Robert Porter CROPPER (1829- ?) learned to speak their language when the "coolies" started arriving in SV in 1861 . In the 1850's he was a Graduate of Marischal College in the University of Aberdeen and in SV "instituted evening classes for the instruction of young men in history, science, and philosophy". The Presbyterian Church on St. Vincent appears to have "imploded" in the 1850's perhaps due to the Minister's involvement in women or money or both ... but I digress. RPC seems to have acquired the assets and tried to keep the school going by turning it into a Mechanics' Institute. Some additional info on his son :- From Page 86 of the book :- "Called to Witness - Profiles of Canadian Presbyterians" - editor W. Stanford REID. ". The man who offered himself was the Rev. James Cropper, a man whose qualifications made him a natural for the post. Although not much is known of his early life we do know that he came from a devout Christian home. He was the son of R.P. Cropper, the Protector of East Indians of St. Lucia and a lay preacher for the Presbyterian Church. James Cropper learned to speak Hindu fluently and was able, like his father, to converse directly with the new arrivals from India. He and his father had begun the Presbyterian work among the East Indians of St. Lucia; he had trained teachers and catechists there; and he had served some time as a missionary in Trinidad. Cropper, who was slightly "coloured", so impressed the Trinidad Mission Council that they sent him to Pine Hill in Halifax for theological training to prepare him to lead the Indian people of St. Lucia. ." [Pine Hill is now Dalhousie University in Dartmouth, N.S.] More on Rev'd James Bassnett CROPPER (1865-1945) [known to Dorothy KEW as "The Old Goat"] in British Guiana :- Arthur Charles Dayfoot. "The Shaping of the West Indian Church, 1492-1962." Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 1999. Page 197: "The [Presbyterian] mission only became permanently established in 1896, with the arrival of the Revd James B. Cropper who for forty years became such a prominent figure that even after his time it was often referred to as 'the Cropper Church.' About 1880 the government had begun to provide free land and encourage workers who had completed their indenture to settle in unoccupied areas (notably in those suitable for rice growing) rather than to return to India. Cropper, who supported this policy, was appointed as 'Superintendent of East Indian Settlement' by the government, but after some years went back to full time church work." JBC had a sister Selina CROPPER (1875 - ?) who also was in British Guiana. Richard found a reference - "Miscellaneous letters and reports, relating to the Canadian Presbyterian Mission in British Guiana and the Presbyterian Church of Guyana". The material is in the Edinburgh University Library, Scotland. One item is a pamphlet or book by Selina CROPPER - "Practical training for British Guiana Girls". Sorry for so much CROPPERANA! Perhaps other listers have information on the interaction between the immigrants and the Islanders. Jim C.
Yuddh1
Mar 13 2003, 5:42 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Yuddh1" <[email protected]>Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 04:42:42 -0500Local: Thurs, Mar 13 2003 5:42 am
Subject: Over 575 voyages of East Indian Indenture Laborers
I have a listing of over 500 voyages of ships that transported East Indiansfrom India to the Caribbean Basin:Guyana, Surinam, Jamaica, Trinidad, St. Kitts, Nevis, St. Croix, Grenada,Belize, Martique, Guadeloupe, French Guiana, St. Lucia, and St. Vincent
www.geocities.com/yuddh1www.groups.yahoo.com/group/bhatchaman/
"Rory McGregor" Apr 5 2003, 6:01 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Rory McGregor")Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 22:00:54 +0000 (UTC)Local: Sat, Apr 5 2003 6:00 pm
Subject: RE: Hindu and Muslim records
I know my Hindu Indian friends tell me there is a place on the Ganges wherefamily histories are recorded and when there is a death of a father, the sonis supposed to go there to make a pilgrimage and update the record.
Many of my friends were shocked as to how detailed and how far back thesewent (to the 1500's).
This may be helpful for Caribbean people who can trace the family back to aparticular locality in India.
Rory
Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie May 1 2003, 6:01 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 18:01:04 -0400Local: Thurs, May 1 2003 6:01 pm
Subject: The following is part of an e-mail reply from the PRO on the East Indians to the West Indies
The following is part of a reply from the PRO on the East Indians to theWest Indies
The biographical information relating to indenture labourers can be found inthe Colonial Office: West Indies original correspondence in record seriesreference of the National Archives (TNA) PRO CO 318. It contains specificsections devoted to Indian labour and migration to the West Indies for theperiod 1843 to 1873; these are continued in (TNA): PRO CO 323 and later inthe Immigration Department records (TNA): PRO CO 571 for the period1913-1920.
From the 1870's the records of the Land Board and Emigration Department
(TNA): PRO CO 384-CO 386 with registers in (TNA): PRO CO 428) are concernedwith emigration to the West Indies and include information on Indian migrantlabour. The (TNA): PRO CO 384 and (TNA): PRO CO 385 includes surgeon'sreports sometimes give details of the births and deaths of Indians on theships. Only first names of the Indian labourers have been noted in these
records. These are not complete. There is no name index to these
records, therefore searching for information on individuals are extremelydifficult.
Emigration agents were appointed in India to recruit labourers. Theindenture labourers had to fill the contract of service forms. It ispossible that the records created by these agents if they had survived maybe found in the State Archives of India. In India, the ports of Calcutta,Bombay, and Madras were the main platforms used to transport the labourersto colonies. Please contact the appropriate State Archives in India if youknow, the origin of their place from which they left to St Lusia. The Statearchives addresses are as follows.
Government of West Bengal State Archives
6, Bhowani Dutta Lane
Kolkatta (Calcutta)- 700 007
India
Tamil Nadu State Archives
28/29, Gandhi-Irwin Road
Egmore
Chennai - 600 008
Tamil Nadu
India
Telephone +91 (0)44 825 43 38
Fax +91 (0)44 825 60 47
http://www.tanap.net/archives/archives/tamil.htm
Mumbai Archives,
Department of Archives,
Government of Maharashtra,
156,Elphinstone College Building,
M.G. Road, Fort
Mumbai - 400032. India.
Phone No: 0091-22-2843971, 0091-22-2844268
Fax no: 0091-22-2844268
Because of our very limited resources of staff and time, and the nature ofthe material in question, we are unable to undertake research for you. Ifyou are able to visit the office in person, we are happy to advise youfurther on this subject
There is much information about the records and the services we provideavailable on our web site at
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
If you are unable visit the office, you may care to hire an IndependentResearcher to do the work on your behalf. A list of researchers whoundertake family history research can be printed from our website. To do
this, please follow the link tohttp://www.pro.gov.uk/research/irlist/default.htm
I trust this information will be of assistance to you
Yours sincerely
Abi Husainy (Ms)
Research and Editorial Services Department
Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie May 26 2003, 2:39 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Shiva-Ram Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:44:47 -0400Local: Sun, May 25 2003 11:44 pm
Subject: Ship Transporting East Indians to St. Croix
Finally, after much searching (and headaches) I was saved by a fellowresearcher who was able to tell me the name of the only ship to havetransported East Indian indentured laborers to St. Croix, Danish WestIndies.
On June 15, 1863, the steamship Mars (not a sail ship) arrived at Croix fromCalcutta, after being on the high seas for about 3 months, with 318indentured servants.
(Another source said the total was 326).
I was very excited to have received this information. For a listing of otherships that transported East Indians to the Caribbean Basin, visit my site atwww.geocities.com/yuddh1
"Ernest M. Wiltshire" May 29 2003, 11:33 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Ernest M. Wiltshire")Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:33:47 +0000 (UTC)Local: Thurs, May 29 2003 11:33 amSubject: East Indian Immigration to Jamaica
"Richard Allicock" Jun 4 2003, 11:35 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Richard Allicock")Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 03:35:19 +0000 (UTC)Local: Wed, Jun 4 2003 11:35 pm
Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. JamaicaHistory of East Indian Immigration to Jamaica
by Arthur Harvey Alexander.
(details not available)
Home away from home : 150 years of Indian presence in Jamaica, 1845-1995
by Laxmi & Ajai Mansingh
Kingston, Jamaica : I. Randle Publishers 1999,180 p : ill. (some col.)
The geographic and social origins of Indian indentured labourers inMauritius, Natal, Fiji, Guyana and Jamaica
Working papers in Economic Historyno.67
by Lance Brennan; John McDonald; Ralph Schlomowitz
Flinders University of South Australia, Adelaide,1995 38p
Transients to settlers : the experience of Indians in Jamaica, 1845-1950
by Verene Shepherd
University of Warwick Centre for Research in Asian MigrationLeeds, Peepal Tree Press,1994281 p. : ill., maps.
The East Indian indentureship system in Jamaica 1845-1917.
by Sohal Harinder Singh
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada: University of Waterloo 1979
Note on emigration from the East Indies to Jamaicaby D.W Comins, Calcutta: G.P.
1893, 48 p
Jun 9 2003, 9:35 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("James W Cropper")Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:35:38 +0000 (UTC)Local: Mon, Jun 9 2003 9:35 amSubject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this authorHi Listers,
In a discussion off-line with Richard there are other threads to the topic of the East Indian immigration which may be of interest. One is the interaction between the immigrants and the Islanders.
My family on St. Vincent had interesting relationships with the new arrivals. One member Robert Porter CROPPER (1829- ?) learned to speak their language when the "coolies" started arriving in SV in 1861 . In the 1850's he was a Graduate of Marischal College in the University of Aberdeen and in SV "instituted evening classes for the instruction of young men in history, science, and philosophy". The Presbyterian Church on St. Vincent appears to have "imploded" in the 1850's perhaps due to the Minister's involvement in women or money or both ... but I digress. RPC seems to have acquired the assets and tried to keep the school going by turning it into a Mechanics' Institute. Some additional info on his son :-
From Page 86 of the book :- "Called to Witness - Profiles of Canadian Presbyterians" - editor W. Stanford REID.". The man who offered himself was the Rev. James Cropper, a man whose qualifications made him a natural for the post. Although not much is known of his early life we do know that he came from a devout Christian home. He was the son of R.P. Cropper, the Protector of East Indians of St. Lucia and a lay preacher for the Presbyterian Church. James Cropper learned to speak Hindu fluently and was able, like his father, to converse directly with the new arrivals from India. He and his father had begun the Presbyterian work among the East Indians of St. Lucia; he had trained teachers and catechists there; and he had served some time as a missionary in Trinidad. Cropper, who was slightly "coloured", so impressed the Trinidad Mission Council that they sent him to Pine Hill in Halifax for theological training to prepare him to lead the Indian people of St. Lucia. ." [Pine Hill is now Dalhousie University in Dartmouth, N.S.]
More on Rev'd James Bassnett CROPPER (1865-1945) [known to Dorothy KEW as "The Old Goat"] in British Guiana :-Arthur Charles Dayfoot. "The Shaping of the West Indian Church, 1492-1962." Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 1999.
Page 197: "The [Presbyterian] mission only became permanently established in 1896, with the arrival of the Revd James B. Cropper who for forty years became such a prominent figure that even after his time it was often referred to as 'the Cropper Church.' About 1880 the government had begun to provide free land and encourage workers who had completed their indenture to settle in unoccupied areas (notably in those suitable for rice growing) rather than to return to India. Cropper, who supported this policy, was appointed as 'Superintendent of East Indian Settlement' by the government, but after some years went back to full time church work."
JBC had a sister Selina CROPPER (1875 - ?) who also was in British Guiana. Richard found a reference - "Miscellaneous letters and reports, relating to the Canadian Presbyterian Mission in British Guiana and the Presbyterian Church of Guyana". The material is in the Edinburgh University Library, Scotland. One item is a pamphlet or book by Selina CROPPER - "Practical training for British Guiana Girls".
Sorry for so much CROPPERANA! Perhaps other listers have information on the interaction between the immigrants and the Islanders.
Jim C.
"Ernest M. Wiltshire"
Jim this is interesting: why did the Presbyterian Church disappear from St. Vincent? When my father was posted there in 1949 as a Methodist minister, the Governor (Administrator strictly speaking) was a Presbyterian, but came to the Methodist Church as there was no Presbyterian one, and he tended to go to the Anglican Church only for official occasions. Was there a financial/sexual scandal 100 years earlier? Ernest M. Wiltshire - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ------Original Message----- From: James W Cropper [mailto:[email protected]] Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church. ". The Presbyterian Church on St. Vincent appears to have "imploded" in the 1850's perhaps due to the Minister's involvement in women or money or both ... but I digress.
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Ernest M. Wiltshire")Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:22:51 +0000 (UTC)Local: Mon, Jun 9 2003 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.Jim this is interesting: why did the Presbyterian Church disappear fromSt. Vincent? When my father was posted there in 1949 as a Methodistminister, the Governor (Administrator strictly speaking) was aPresbyterian, but came to the Methodist Church as there was noPresbyterian one, and he tended to go to the Anglican Church only for
official occasions. Was there a financial/sexual scandal 100 yearsearlier?
Ernest M. Wiltshire
"James W Cropper"
Ernest wants to start another thread regarding financial/sexual/religion! I am the last one to discuss the subjects, but I'll try. The Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) on St. Vincent when through various problems over the years. By 1949 there was no Church due to a scandal in the 1930's. The problems in the 1850's were financial and "from the departure of the Minister to Europe on account of ill health" and the retirement of the school's Head Master. A Methodist Minister briefly mentioned the problems in the book "A Voice from the West Indies" by Rev'd John HORSFORD - 1856 - St. Vincent. Page 353 - " ... There are here three presses, - each respectable, liberal, and exhibiting ability; but on reading-rooms, and no libraries, except the small remnants of the Presbyterian Library, which, from the departure of the Minister to Europe on account of ill health, and the scattered state of the church and congregation, has, like the school, fallen into the hands of Mr. Robert Cropper, a true patriot an a Graduate of Marischal College in the University of Aberdeen, who has recently instituted evening classes for the instruction of young men in history, science, and philosophy, and who is contemplating the establishment of a Mechanics' Institute, respecting which fuller information will be shortly given by means of a pamphlet now in the press and soon to be published. ..." Page 354 - " ... The same may be said of the Presbyterian school. Mr. Hart, the former master, gave cordial satisfaction to the parents, and won the affections of the pupils; and, on his retirement to his - native land, Scotland, in 1853, he was succeeded by Mr. R. Cropper, who is in every way competent, and whose interest in the rising generation is deep and disinterested. This school was denominational; and though the Assembly's Catechism was taught in it, it was liberally conducted. ..." The best place for information was a website of the Historical Society of St. Vincent which no longer exists. The former Presbyterian Church is now t he Seventh Day Adventist Church. The old website had :- "This place of worship in central Kingstown for the Seventh Day Adventists was once the Kirk of the Scottish Presbyterians who settled in St. Vincent after the Monmouth Rebellion in England. The Church of Scotland or as it was locally called the Scots' Kirk, is a large stone edifice situated at the corner of Granby and Sharpe Streets. It was first built in 1839 and reconstructed in 1880 by William Smith, a leading landowner who, besides owning estates in St. Vincent, possessed a few lots of land on Granby and Sharpe Streets. The building is historically significant because, unlike St. George's Cathedral, it was not built with state funds. It was supported by tithes given by Scottish settlers who wanted to continue the form of worship practised in the Mother Country. Therefore, Alexander Porter, the owner of the largest number of estates in St. Vincent at the time, thought it was his duty - as an elder - to support, financially, the Kirk. In 1902, the year before he died, he gave the church an endowment of five hundred pounds sterling, on condition that only a Scotsman be minister." "The building was enlarged in 1927. It had on its roof a beautiful wooden ventilator with a weathercock. This ventilator was demolished last year
when repairs were done to the roof. A manse was built east of the church, on The Greens not too far from the church, on an elevated area which commanded a good view of Kingstown Harbour. During the 1930's a scandal rocked the Kirk; it's membership fell and finally the church was closed down. In 1952 it was sold to the Seventh Day Adventist who use it for regular worship especially on Saturdays. Because it is the largest the centre of activity and replaces the first Adventist Chapel at Montrose. This was a wooden building which was dedicated on 12th July 1903, two years after the first Adventist missionaries arrived in St. Vincent." Jim C. - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ------ Original Message ----- From: "Ernest M. Wiltshire" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 12:22 PM Subject: RE: St. Vincent Presbyterian Church. > Jim this is interesting: why did the Presbyterian Church disappear from > St. Vincent? When my father was posted there in 1949 as a Methodist > minister, the Governor (Administrator strictly speaking) was a > Presbyterian, but came to the Methodist Church as there was no > Presbyterian one, and he tended to go to the Anglican Church only for > official occasions. Was there a financial/sexual scandal 100 years > earlier? > Ernest M. Wiltshire
Jun 10 2003, 8:29 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("James W Cropper")Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:12:06 +0000 (UTC)Local: Tues, Jun 10 2003 8:12 am
Subject: Re: St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
Ernest wants to start another thread regarding financial/sexual/religion! Iam the last one to discuss the subjects, but I'll try. The Church ofScotland (Presbyterian) on St. Vincent when through various problems overthe years. By 1949 there was no Church due to a scandal in the 1930's. Theproblems in the 1850's were financial and "from the departure of theMinister to Europe on account of ill health" and the retirement of theschool's Head Master.
A Methodist Minister briefly mentioned the problems in the book "A Voicefrom the West Indies" by Rev'd John HORSFORD - 1856 - St. Vincent.Page 353 - " ... There are here three presses, - each respectable, liberal,and exhibiting ability; but on reading-rooms, and no libraries, except thesmall remnants of the Presbyterian Library, which, from the departure of theMinister to Europe on account of ill health, and the scattered state of thechurch and congregation, has, like the school, fallen into the hands of Mr.Robert Cropper, a true patriot an a Graduate of Marischal College in theUniversity of Aberdeen, who has recently instituted evening classes for theinstruction of young men in history, science, and philosophy, and who iscontemplating the establishment of a Mechanics' Institute, respecting whichfuller information will be shortly given by means of a pamphlet now in thepress and soon to be published. ..."
Page 354 - " ... The same may be said of the Presbyterian school. Mr. Hart,the former master, gave cordial satisfaction to the parents, and won theaffections of the pupils; and, on his retirement to his - native land,Scotland, in 1853, he was succeeded by Mr. R. Cropper, who is in every waycompetent, and whose interest in the rising generation is deep anddisinterested. This school was denominational; and though the Assembly'sCatechism was taught in it, it was liberally conducted. ..."
The best place for information was a website of the Historical Society ofSt. Vincent which no longer exists. The former Presbyterian Church is now the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The old website had :-"This place of worship in central Kingstown for the Seventh Day Adventistswas once the Kirk of the Scottish Presbyterians who settled in St. Vincentafter the Monmouth Rebellion in England. The Church of Scotland or as it waslocally called the Scots' Kirk, is a large stone edifice situated at thecorner of Granby and Sharpe Streets. It was first built in 1839 andreconstructed in 1880 by William Smith, a leading landowner who, besidesowning estates in St. Vincent, possessed a few lots of land on Granby andSharpe Streets. The building is historically significant because, unlikeSt. George's Cathedral, it was not built with state funds. It was supportedby tithes given by Scottish settlers who wanted to continue the form ofworship practised in the Mother Country. Therefore, Alexander Porter, theowner of the largest number of estates in St. Vincent at the time, thoughtit was his duty - as an elder - to support, financially, the Kirk. In 1902,the year before he died, he gave the church an endowment of five hundredpounds sterling, on condition that only a Scotsman be minister."
"The building was enlarged in 1927. It had on its roof a beautiful woodenventilator with a weathercock. This ventilator was demolished last year whenrepairs were done to the roof. A manse was built east of the church, on TheGreens not too far from the church, on an elevated area which commanded agood view of Kingstown Harbour. During the 1930's a scandal rocked the Kirk;it's membership fell and finally the church was closed down. In 1952 it wassold to the Seventh Day Adventist who use it for regular worship especiallyon Saturdays. Because it is the largest the centre of activity and replacesthe first Adventist Chapel at Montrose. This was a wooden building which wasdedicated on 12th July 1903, two years after the first Adventistmissionaries arrived in St. Vincent."
Jim C.
"Richard Allicock"
I found James Cropper's posting, which I have edited below, very interesting and very re-freshing compared to the British Guiana experience and maybe that of Trinidad and Jamaica. I will leave others on the list knowledgeable about the situation in the last two countries to say what the situation was there. But in British Guiana, where the London Missionary Society had gotten a foot-hold before slavery was abolished, and since the LMS was the local arm of the Abolitionists movement, the LMS did not take kindly to the arrival of the East Indians. In fact, like the abolitionists, they had opposed the introduction Indentureship on the grounds of a New Slavery. This was all well and good, but their sentiments towards the East Indians, was inculcated by the ex-slaves and their descendants, and I think did a great deal of harm in regard to the relationships between the two races. The East Indians were seen as Heathens, and the ex-slaves who were being Christianised were preached upon against associating with the Heathens and about their Heathen practices. To be fair, the Missionaries all over the world did the same, even when the Heathen were the unchristianised fellow natives of whatever territories the missionaries were in. But in a situation where the ex-slaves already felt that the East Indians and other Indentured were taking their jobs and hence the food out of their mouths, the preachings of the Missionaries did lasting harm. One can only imagine what may have been said about the Catholic and hence Popish and Idolatrous Portuguese/Madeirans. And yet boys will be boys, and it was much to chagrin of the missionaries, when the young children and young adults started tagging along behid the Hindus when they celebrated their Festivals. Very soon certain festivals were banned, for being disruptive to the work schedule on the Estates/Plantations, but one also suspects also for the exhibition of Heathenism. And then there was the matter of dress or undress. It must be remembered that by the 1840's it was already the Victorian era, with its abhorrence of public nudity. Whereas before the end of slavery slaves were routinely in some state of undress, at the end of slavery an Ordinance was passed specifying the way that males and females should be dressed. Males in shirts and trousers, females in frocks and petticoats and a head-scarf. Then along came the East Indians who could be seen in states of undress, the men clad in only loin-cloths and a "turban" and the females working bare-breasted in the fields, as the slaves had done before them. More fuel to the faggots of the Missionaries' anti-Heathen preachings. It is refreshing to see how early one of the Croppers, a lay precher with the Presbyterian Church, and Protector of Indians, jumped in to Christianise the East Indians, even going a far as learning their language. It is also not surprisising that it was the Canadian Presbyterians that led the way. It was also this group of Prebyterians that did much to Christianise and educate a significant number of East Indians to produce an anglicised East Indian middle class in British Guiana. One can also remark upon the title "Protector of Indians" mentioned by both James Cropper and Guy Grannum. In British Guiana, there had long been Protector of Indians, the Amerindians, a post begun by the Dutch and kept by the British. These Protectors were backed up by no less than the person of the Inspector-Geeral of Police. Maybe there were no Native Amerindians in St. Vincent by the time that the East Indians started to arrive, but was the title passed on from a time when there were? In British Guiana, the protector of the East Indians was the Immigration-Agent-General. One of them (James Crosby by name) did his job so well, and was so trusted by the East Indians, that many times in disputes with the Estates/Plantations, they would walk off and attempt to go and see "Crosby". Even when he was no longer there his office was known as "Crosby", and the East Indians
would still want to see "Crosby" regardless of the name of successive Immigration-Agent-General. A great post James. Thanks. Richard - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ------ Original Message ----- From: "James W Cropper" My family on St. Vincent had interesting relationships with the new arrivals. One member Robert Porter CROPPER (1829- ?) learned to speak their language when the "coolies" started arriving in SV in 1861 ..... From Page 86 of the book :- "Called to Witness - Profiles of Canadian Presbyterians" - editor W. Stanford REID. .... He was the son of R.P. Cropper, the Protector of East Indians of St. Lucia and a lay preacher for the Presbyterian Church. James Cropper learned to speak Hindu fluently and was able, like his father, to converse directly with the new arrivals from India. He and his father had begun the Presbyterian work among the East Indians of St. Lucia; he had trained teachers and catechists there; and he had served some time as a missionary in Trinidad. Cropper, who was slightly "coloured", so impressed the Trinidad Mission Council that they sent him to Pine Hill in Halifax for theological training to prepare him to lead the Indian people of St. Lucia. ." [Pine Hill is now Dalhousie University in Dartmouth, N.S.] Arthur Charles Dayfoot. "The Shaping of the West Indian Church, 1492-1962." Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 1999. Page 197: "The [Presbyterian] mission only became permanently established in 1896, with the arrival of the Revd James B. Cropper who for forty years became such a prominent figure that even after his time it was often referred to as 'the Cropper Church.' About 1880 the government had begun to provide free land and encourage workers who had completed their indenture to settle in unoccupied areas (notably in those suitable for rice growing) rather than to return to India. Cropper, who supported this policy, was appointed as 'Superintendent of East Indian Settlement' by the government, but after some years went back to full time church work." <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 6:36 AM
Jun 15 2003, 11:29 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Richard Allicock")Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 03:29:29 +0000 (UTC)Local: Sun, Jun 15 2003 11:29 pm
Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
I found James Cropper's posting, which I have edited below, very interestingand very re-freshing compared to the British Guiana experience and maybethat of Trinidad and Jamaica. I will leave others on the list knowledgeableabout the situation in the last two countries to say what the situation wasthere. But in British Guiana, where the London Missionary Society had gottena foot-hold before slavery was abolished, and since the LMS was the localarm of the Abolitionists movement, the LMS did not take kindly to thearrival of the East Indians.
In fact, like the abolitionists, they had opposed the introduction
Indentureship on the grounds of a New Slavery. This was all well and good,but their sentiments towards the East Indians, was inculcated by theex-slaves and their descendants, and I think did a great deal of harm inregard to the relationships between the two races.
The East Indians were seen as Heathens, and the ex-slaves who were beingChristianised were preached upon against associating with the Heathens andabout their Heathen practices. To be fair, the Missionaries all over theworld did the same, even when the Heathen were the unchristianised fellownatives of whatever territories the missionaries were in. But in a situationwhere the ex-slaves already felt that the East Indians and other Indenturedwere taking their jobs and hence the food out of their mouths, thepreachings of the Missionaries did lasting harm. One can only imagine whatmay have been said about the Catholic and hence Popish and IdolatrousPortuguese/Madeirans.
And yet boys will be boys, and it was much to chagrin of the missionaries,when the young children and young adults started tagging along behid theHindus when they celebrated their Festivals. Very soon certain festivalswere banned, for being disruptive to the work schedule on theEstates/Plantations, but one also suspects also for the exhibition ofHeathenism.
And then there was the matter of dress or undress. It must be rememberedthat by the 1840's it was already the Victorian era, with its abhorrence ofpublic nudity. Whereas before the end of slavery slaves were routinely insome state of undress, at the end of slavery an Ordinance was passedspecifying the way that males and females should be dressed. Males in shirtsand trousers, females in frocks and petticoats and a head-scarf.
Then along came the East Indians who could be seen in states of undress, themen clad in only loin-cloths and a "turban" and the females workingbare-breasted in the fields, as the slaves had done before them. More fuelto the faggots of the Missionaries' anti-Heathen preachings.
It is refreshing to see how early one of the Croppers, a lay precher withthe Presbyterian Church, and Protector of Indians, jumped in to Christianisethe East Indians, even going a far as learning their language.
It is also not surprisising that it was the Canadian Presbyterians that ledthe way. It was also this group of Prebyterians that did much toChristianise and educate a significant number of East Indians to produce ananglicised East Indian middle class in British Guiana.
One can also remark upon the title "Protector of Indians" mentioned by bothJames Cropper and Guy Grannum. In British Guiana, there had long been
Protector of Indians, the Amerindians, a post begun by the Dutch and kept bythe British. These Protectors were backed up by no less than the person ofthe Inspector-Geeral of Police.
Maybe there were no Native Amerindians in St. Vincent by the time that theEast Indians started to arrive, but was the title passed on from a time whenthere were?
In British Guiana, the protector of the East Indians was theImmigration-Agent-General. One of them (James Crosby by name) did his job sowell, and was so trusted by the East Indians, that many times in disputeswith the Estates/Plantations, they would walk off and attempt to go and see"Crosby". Even when he was no longer there his office was known as "Crosby",and the East Indians would still want to see "Crosby" regardless of the nameof successive Immigration-Agent-General.
A great post James. Thanks.
Richard
Tim Anderson Jun 16 2003, 2:36 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: Tim Anderson <[email protected]>Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 02:37:49 -0400Local: Mon, Jun 16 2003 2:37 am
Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
I have just 2 observations to add to this thread. I have gone overthe parish records in St. Patrick's Grenada from 1860 to 1931 as theyexist on the LDS microfilms. Concerning East Indians in the latterpart of the 19th: in the 1870s and 1880s about 50% of the baptismswere for East Indian children and adults; the reason that I know thisis that the parish records clearly label these people as either"coolie" or "native of Calcutta" or something similar.
"Rory McGregor"
I just finished watching this show on BBC4 in the UK .... it was quite good and the first time I have seen a documentary about this outside of Trinidad.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/coolies.shtml COOLIES: THE STORY OF INDIAN SLAVERY Monday 16 June 2003 9pm-10pm; rpt 1am-2am The slave trade was officially abolished throughout the British Empire in 1807. This documentary reveals one of Britain's darkest secrets: a form of slavery that continued well into the 20th century - the story of Indian indentured labour. Coolies: How Britain Re-Invented Slavery reveals the astonishing and controversial story of the systematic recruitment and migration of over a million Indians to all corners of the Empire. It is a chapter in colonial history that implicates figures at the very highest level of the British establishment and has defined the demographic shape of the modern world. Combining archive footage and historical evidence the programme includes interviews with Gandhi's great grandaughter, Uma Dhupelia-Mesthrie, about Gandhi's campaign to end indentured labour and David Dabydeen - author and academic - whose great grandfather was an indentured labourer in British Guyana. Coolies: How Britain Re-invented Slavery traces family stories through epic voyages across South America, the South Pacific and Africa, as descendants investigate their past and trace the last surviving witnesses.
Jun 16 2003, 6:16 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Rory McGregor")Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:16:45 +0000 (UTC)Local: Mon, Jun 16 2003 6:16 pm
Subject: COOLIES: THE STORY OF INDIAN SLAVERY - BBC 4
I just finished watching this show on BBC4 in the UK .... it was quite goodand the first time I have seen a documentary about this outside ofTrinidad.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/coolies.shtml
COOLIES: THE STORY OF INDIAN SLAVERYMonday 16 June 2003 9pm-10pm; rpt 1am-2am
The slave trade was officially abolished throughout the British Empire in1807. This documentary reveals one of Britain's darkest secrets: a form ofslavery that continued well into the 20th century - the story of Indianindentured labour.
Coolies: How Britain Re-Invented Slavery reveals the astonishing andcontroversial story of the systematic recruitment and migration of over amillion Indians to all corners of the Empire. It is a chapter in colonialhistory that implicates figures at the very highest level of the Britishestablishment and has defined the demographic shape of the modern world.
Combining archive footage and historical evidence the programme includesinterviews with Gandhi's great grandaughter, Uma Dhupelia-Mesthrie, aboutGandhi's campaign to end indentured labour and David Dabydeen - author andacademic - whose great grandfather was an indentured labourer in BritishGuyana.
Coolies: How Britain Re-invented Slavery traces family stories through epicvoyages across South America, the South Pacific and Africa, as descendantsinvestigate their past and trace the last surviving witnesses.
"Richard Allicock"
Dean wrote: (16/06/03) "From what I have read, the Hindu festivals were permitted in Trinidad, althought there were instances where the activities got out of control. I'll try to look up a specific example." Hi Dean, Thanks for confirming the role of the Presbyterians in Trinidad. In relation to the above, the same was the case in Biritsh Guiana. As you can imagine, such festivals and their outcome did involve the "disturbance of the peace" as it occasioned much use of alcohol and Bhang or Ganja. A good excuse to bann or limit them. One thing that was banned was the use of the Tadja Drum for obvious reasons. This is a huge drum that makes a booming noise. If there was something to disturb the peace of the country-side, that drumming was one. African drumming had long been banned for its communicative and conspiracy potential, so the banning of this and that cultural activities or their limitation was nothing new. You know the old joke about the Golden Rule? "He who has the gold makes the rules". Looking forward to your examples in the case of Trinidad and from others in relation to the other Islands. Thanks. Richard - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ------ Original Message ----- From: "Dean de Freitas" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 6:06 AM Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Allicock" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:45 AM > Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent > Presbyterian Church. > <SNIP> > > And yet boys will be boys, and it was much to chagrin of the missionaries, > > when the young children and young adults started tagging along behid the > > Hindus when they celebrated their Festivals. Very soon certain festivals > > were banned, for being disruptive to the work schedule on the > > Estates/Plantations, but one also suspects also for the exhibition of > > Heathenism. > <SNIP> > From what I have read, the Hindu festivals were permitted in Trinidad, > althought there were instances where the activities got out of control. > I'll try to look up a specific example... > <SNIP> > > It is also not surprisising that it was the Canadian Presbyterians that > led > > the way. It was also this group of Prebyterians that did much to > > Christianise and educate a significant number of East Indians to produce > an > > anglicised East Indian middle class in British Guiana. > <SNIP> > The Canadian Presbyterians were quite successful in
Chritianising the East > Indians in Trinidad as well. They set up schools etc., and it wasn't long > before the most fervent evangelists in Trinidad were themselves Indians. >
Jun 19 2003, 4:53 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Richard Allicock")Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:52:57 +0000 (UTC)Local: Thurs, Jun 19 2003 4:52 pm
Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
Dean wrote: (16/06/03)
"From what I have read, the Hindu festivals were permitted in Trinidad,althought there were instances where the activities got out of control.I'll try to look up a specific example."
Hi Dean,
Thanks for confirming the role of the Presbyterians in Trinidad. In relationto the above, the same was the case in Biritsh Guiana.
As you can imagine, such festivals and their outcome did involve the"disturbance of the peace" as it occasioned much use of alcohol and Bhang orGanja. A good excuse to bann or limit them.
One thing that was banned was the use of the Tadja Drum for obvious reasons.This is a huge drum that makes a booming noise. If there was something todisturb the peace of the country-side, that drumming was one. Africandrumming had long been banned for its communicative and conspiracypotential, so the banning of this and that cultural activities or theirlimitation was nothing new.
You know the old joke about the Golden Rule? "He who has the gold makes therules".
Looking forward to your examples in the case of Trinidad and from others inrelation to the other Islands. Thanks.
Richard
"James W Cropper"
Jun 22 2003, 3:40 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("James W Cropper")Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:40:28 +0000 (UTC)Local: Sun, Jun 22 2003 3:40 pm
Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
I'm back! Been off list due to technical problems with my server which wasblacklisted by Rootsweb. Only Auntie Virus would know the technical terms"pinged" by a spammer. Back to business!
While Tim has gone through the parish records in St. Patrick's Grenada from1860 to 1931, I have gone through the Transcripts of St. George Cathedral,Kingstown, St. Vincent from 1765-1870. I became intrigued with entries whenthe "coolies" start appearing in the early 1860's. Their place of birth isnot given in most cases but there were some from Madras and Calcutta.Madras and Calcutta seem likely to be the ports the indentured "coolies"embarked from rather than their actual birthplaces. Most parents arereferred to in East Indian names with the children baptized with "English"names.
There are many references in the Baptisms to "by the Emperietrice Eugenia"aka "Empretrice Eugenie", etc. It is difficult to tell if she had somestatus in the Church of England, a translator, a respected member of theEast Indian Community, etc. On further checking she was only involved withBaptisms starting in the late 1860's. Many of the baptisms where she wasinvolved occurred in the Colonial Hospital. The hospitalized child andtheir siblings are baptized but not the parents. Many at the Cathedralinvolve adults receiving "Christian" names with no mention of "East Indian"names. There are no entries in Marriages and the Burials cut off at 1855.These entries are a minority of the total. It is assumed that as"indentured labourers", the majority of them would have been associated withthe rural churches and other dominations. Only those working near thecapital or hospitalized are probably in the Anglican Cathedral records.
In off-line discussions with Marcos he opined :- "Actually I think Iremember that Empress Eugenie, who got out of France with a lot of money,set up a foundation to baptize 'heathens' that may have been run through theAnglican Church worldwide. These baptisms in SV were probably paid for bythe foundation. Somewhere along the line she got the idea that God waspunishing her for her previous extravagant lifestyle."
Has anyone noticed the involvement of an "Empress Eugenie" or similarIslanders to the new arrivals?
Jim C.ps Over the years, SVG has produced stamps on many subjects. There is oneshowing a ship ferrying people between India and the West Indies.
"John Weiss" Jun 22 2003, 7:13 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("John Weiss")Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 23:12:49 +0000 (UTC)Local: Sun, Jun 22 2003 7:12 pm
Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church.
This suggested connection of the Empress Eugénie with Anglican baptism seemsa little odd to me, as she was deeply involved with the Roman Catholicchurch. She was Empress until 1870, when Napoleon III capitulated to thePrussians, and they then retired to England. She died in 1920, and duringthe latter part of her life she devoted herself first to building amausoleum in memory of her husband (and later, their son) which wasconnected with a Benedictine abbey - this was in Farnborough, Hampshire.
Can anyone find an explanation for her apparently recorded involvement inAnglican baptism during the time she was still Empress in France?
[see Empress Eugénie's Quest for a Napoleonic Mausoleumby Alison McQueen,http://www.19thc-artworldwide.org/winter_03/articles/mcqu.html]
John Weiss
Jim Croper wrote (Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:42 PM):
"While Tim has gone through the parish records in St. Patrick's Grenadafrom> 1860 to 1931, I have gone through the Transcripts of St. George Cathedral,> Kingstown, St. Vincent from 1765-1870. I became intrigued with entrieswhen> the "coolies" start appearing in the early 1860's. Their place of birthis> not given in most cases but there were some from Madras and Calcutta.> Madras and Calcutta seem likely to be the ports the indentured "coolies"
> embarked from rather than their actual birthplaces. Most parents are> referred to in East Indian names with the children baptized with "English"> names.> .................> >.....Baptisms starting in the late 1860's. ..........occurred in the
Colonial Hospital. The hospitalized child and> their siblings are baptized but not the parents. Many at the Cathedral> involve adults receiving "Christian" names with no mention of "EastIndian"> names. There are no entries in Marriages and the Burials cut off at 1855.> These entries are a minority of the total. It is assumed that as> "indentured labourers", the majority of them would have been associatedwith> the rural churches and other dominations. Only those working near the> capital or hospitalized are probably in the Anglican Cathedral records."
****************
My Comment:
Once again Jim Cropper has made a very significant contibution to thisthread, previously in regard to the efforts of the Presbyterian Church inSt. Vincent and now in regard to the Anglican Church. ( I have edited themessage above). Both Churches seem to have been very quick to embrace thearriving East Indians to their respective churches.
The question to be asked is: "Were these Hindus being baptised or were theyalready Christians from India? Were the Baptisms with or without the consentof the parents? Was this the embrace of Christians from another area, or the"saving of Heathen souls"? If the former, why aren't the parents namesmentioned, or the East Indian names of the children? If the parents wereChristians from India, why aren't their Baptismal names mentioned?
It must be remembered that Calcutta (along with Madras and Bombay) were theprincipal areas of British dominance/influence via the the East IndiaCompany, beginning in 1608. By 1717 the BEI Co. was exempt from paying taxesand a few years after 1757, when they defeated the Nawab of Bengal at theBattle of Plassey, they were empowered to collect revenues for the MoghulEmperor. That authority basically meant that the Company ruled Bengal. Hencethe indentured immigrants were coming from an area of long establishedBritishh religious influence.
It must also be remembered that the foundation of Social Darwinism hadalready been enunciated in 1857 with the publication of Herbert Spencer'sEssay. By 1899 we get Rudyard Kipling's poem, "The White Man's Burden which
was not a general call to racial imperialism, (although it may have been anexpression of it), but an exhortation to the US to assume the tasks ofdeveloping the Phillipines after victory in the Spanish-American War.
We must also remember, that the Spanish and Portuguese had very earlydecided upon a policy of baptising the natives and Africans before imposingslavery on them. And yet by the 18th century we have slave traders like thefamous John Newton, who was later an abolitionist, and author of "AmazingGrace"; of other traders being troubled in their conscience that they weredealing with human beings, but did it any way for pay and profit; andothers who were to even deny that African slaves had souls or were humanbeings.
In England, when the Walloons and Huguenots started to arrive fleeingpersecution in the 16th Century, the parents were alowed their owncongregations but the children were enrolled in Anglican Churches, althoughI am yet to establish how long this policy lasted, but a policy it initiallywas. In North America, right in this century, in Canada, a policy wasdecided upon, with the collaboration of the Christian Churches, to forciblyassimilate the children of Natives in Residential Schools. They wereforbidden to use their Indian names and to speak their native languages.
So I wonder now what really was going on in relation the East Indians andthe Anglican Church in St. Vincent.Were children and parents subsequently welcomed as members of the Church? Ifso why not weddings in the church and burials after 1855?
Another great post Jim! Thanks!
Richard
Oct 21 2004, 8:45 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:45:41 -0400Local: Thurs, Oct 21 2004 8:45 pm
Subject: Re: East Indians in the Caribbean: How May I Help You?
Turn up anything lately on Alfred Busby? He was we surmise a BurmeseBengali livestock manager on St. Croix having come from Statia andbefore that probably from Nevis. He was an ancestor of mine but alsoVargrave Richards and Roy Schneider.
Richard Bond Oct 12 2004, 9:54 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:54:56 -0400Local: Tues, Oct 12 2004 9:54 pm
Subject: Re: Updated info on East Indians in the Caribbean to Include some ...
I am curious as to which St. Croix families may be descended from thoseEast Indian identured laborers who had came in under the Danes. I canremember from past posts to the board an example of a West Indian fromSt. Croix who had moved in the other direction. A portion of theidentured laborers returned to Calcutta at the end of their contracts. Aship was chartered whose captain decided he needed another shipcarpenter. The carpenter married in India and left a family withdescendants over there. I was able to tell a contemporay Indian of WestIndian descent that he still had relatives in St. Croix.
Richard
Oct 14 2004, 11:54 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard" <[email protected]>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:54:50 GMTLocal: Thurs, Oct 14 2004 11:54 amSubject: Re: Updated info on East Indians in the Caribbean to Include some...Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this authorIt was through this newsgroup that I first learned that East Indians wereeven indentured on St. Croix under the Danes, and I grew up there. I made ita point to visit the library last year after returning to St. Croix (havingbeen away for 15 years) to look through archives of The Avis. Unfortunatelythe years that would have covered the indentureship were kept in St. Thomas.Another researcher was able to provide the name of the ship, SS Mars, onwhich the laborers were transported.
If anyone in Charlotte Amalie, St. Thomas could find the announcement in theSt. Croix Avis from June 15, 1863 I would be interested in hearing thedetails.
Richard B. Cheddie Oct 21 2004, 10:59 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 02:59:45 GMTLocal: Thurs, Oct 21 2004 10:59 pmSubject: Re: East Indians in the Caribbean: How May I Help You?Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this authorNow this posting surprise me as to the descendants of Mr. Busby.
I recently wrote to the National Archives of Nevis and they said that theydid not have any direct info on the subject, but references to it.
I have read some of Mr. Shamshu Deen's e-mails on the subject and it looklike the East Indian indentured laborers were upset about their plight andmight have have rioted.
As the name of the ship that took the East Indian indentured laborers toNevis was the Gainsborough, I am trying to find a copy of the passengerlist. The only info I have on a passenger is concerning a Muslim with thesurname Ali.
I have read you inquiry over the years and know that Busby is a name thatyou are looking for. So when I find it I will post it. I guess we all arenot only searching for our roots, but for others as well
Richard B. Cheddie Nov 5 2004, 8:41 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 00:41:34 GMTLocal: Fri, Nov 5 2004 8:41 pm
Subject: References used on my site on East Indians in the Caribbean.
Someone called me out to provide my reference list for my website. So hereit is:
Bisnauth, Dale, The Settlement of Indians in Guyana 1890-1930, England:Peepal Tree Press, 2000. ISBN: 1900715163
Birbalsingh, Frank, From Pillar to Post: The Indo-Caribbean Diaspora,Toronto, Canada: TSAR Publications, 1997. ISBN:0920661661
Comins, Surgeon-Major D. W. D., Note on Emigration from the East Indies toSt. Lucia. Calcutta, India: The Bengal Secretariat Press, 1893.
Cropper, James W., E-mail dated Oct 22, 2004: Attached copies of 2 pages ofthe 1869 Baptism Records from St. George Cathedral in Kingstown, St.Vincent.
Deen, Shamshu, Solving East Indian Roots in Trinidad, Freeport Juction,Bahamas: H.E.M. Enterprises Ltd., 1994. ISBN: 9768136251
Deen, Shamshu, Lineages and Linkages, Solving Trinidad Roots in India,Chaguanas, Trinidad & Tobago: Print-Art Services Ltd.,
Deen, Shamshu, "Long-lasting Link between the Indians of Trinidad and Nevis"The Independent Mar 7, 1998
Deen, Shamshu, "Nevis' Early Indians" The Independent Mar 21,19981998. ISBN:9768157364
Dookhan, Isaac, A History of the Virgin Islands of the United States,Kingston, Jamaica: Canoe Press, 1994. ISBN: 9768125055
Drouilhet, Sidney "Jim", E-mail dated Mar 28, 1997 in which he cites theColonial Office correspondences concerning the Blue Books for St. Lucia from1859 to 1896.
East Indian Indenture and the Work of the Presbyterian Church among theIndians in Grenada', Caribbean Quarterly 1 (1976),2-8-39. Canada andNewfoundland
Harmsen, Joliet, PhD. (2004, Oct. 17 ). The East Indian Legacy in St. Lucia,1 Article. http://www.slucia.com/visions/2002/indian.html
Latchana, Martin (Editor), Chalo: Commemorating the 160 Anniversary(1838-1998) of Indian Presence in the Caribbean. Canada: The CaribbeanEducationOrganization of Canada & Blue Graphics Inc.1998
Mangru, Basdeo, Indenture and Abolition: Sacrifice and Survival on theGuyanese Sugar Plantations, Toronto, Canada: TSAR Publications, 1993.ISBN:0920661327.
Mansingh, Laxmi & Ajai, Home Away from Home: 150 yeas of Indian Presence in
Jamaica 1845-1995, Kingston, Jamaica: Ian Randle Publishers, 1999. ISBN:9768123389 or 9768123397
Michael E. Brach letters March 9, 1878 and August 22, 1879: Records ofdispatches from the Administrator of the Colonial Office of St. Lucia to theColonial Office, England, requesting more Coolie immigrants to work in theestates of St. Lucia.
(PRO) CO384/102 National Archives document, which has correspondence on'coolie' immigration in Grenada and Trinidad.Rampersad, A., Indians in St. Lucia, Too, St. Augustine, Trinidad:University of West Indies, 1986.
Report of the Committee on Emigration from India to the Crown Colonies andProtectorates. Parliamentary Papers:1910,Vol 27 Cd 5192, PRO FCO 63/398
Richardson, Bonham C., Caribbean Migrants: Environment and Human Survival onSt. Kitts and Nevis, Knoxville, Tennessee: The University of TennesseePress, 1983. ISBN: 0870493612
Shepherd, Verene A., Maharani's Misery: Narratives of a Passage from Indiato the Caribbean, Jamaica: University of West Indies Press, 2002. ISBN:9766401217
Shepherd, Verene A., Transients to Settlers: The Experience of Indians inJamaica 1845-1950, England: University of Warwick and Peepal Tree Books,1993. ISBN: 0948833327
Surinam: Suriname database on East Indian, Javanese, and Chinese indentureLaborers: http://www.nationaalarchief.nl/suriname/
Surinam:http://www.nationaalarchief.nl/suriname/base_hindo/database/engine/zo...
The French Islands: Guadeloupe - Jan 14", The St. Croix Avis. Christiansted,St.Croix,12 Feb1867.
Thomas, Dr. Arnold, Remnants of the Great Coolie Scramble: The East Indiansof St. Vincent, From Indenture to Migration to Britain, Ealing, London:Thames Valley Univ., 1995.
Tyson, J., Report on the Conditions of Indians in Jamaica, British Guiana,and Trinidad 1938 - 1939, PRO FCO 63/398Hope this answer the questions.
Richard B. Cheddie
www.geocities.com/yuddh1
Checkmate!
Richard B. Cheddie Nov 14 2004, 10:56 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 02:56:15 GMTLocal: Sun, Nov 14 2004 10:56 pm
Subject: Resources on East Indians in St. Croix at the National Archives in Washington D.C.
http://www.archives.gov/research_room/federal_records_guide/governmen...
Record Group 55 Records of the Government of the Virgin Islands Danish WestIndies, 1672-1917:
a. Box 334 Volume "Coolie Journal" Relating to East Indian Immigrants,1860s.
b. Box 341 Colonial Council Records Concerning East Indian Immigrants andthe Movement of Laborers in St. Croix, 1852-53.
c. Box 343 Bureau Loans, 1870s;Plantation Inventories and Accounts; Recordson East Indian Immigrants
Richard B. Cheddie Dec 6 2004, 12:17 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 16:17:39 GMTLocal: Mon, Dec 6 2004 12:17 pm
Subject: East Indians: Changed the Website Format and Added more ships for Guyana
As per some of your requests, I have reformatted my websitewww.geocities.com/yuddh1 to enable faster downloading, easier access to theinfo involved, and free up space. Thanks for your suggestions. It normallytakes me three solid days to make those changes, so if you notice any brokenlinks please let me know.
I have also added more ships on Guyana. I also tracked down Dr. Arnold
Thomas, the author of "Remnants of the Great Coolie Scramble: The EastIndians of St. Vincent, From Indenture to Migration to Britain". I amhoping that he will have more details on the indentured laborers that wentthere. Time will tell.
I will continue to add the rest of the data that I have been receiving.(Thank you John O'Connor for your help!)
Happy hunting!
Richard Cheddie
Richard B. Cheddie Dec 16 2004, 9:16 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:16:24 GMTLocal: Thurs, Dec 16 2004 9:16 pm
Subject: Nicolas Poussin: Ship that transported 277 Indians to Cayenne
The ship the Nicolas Poussin, captained by Mr. Galland, left Pondichery,India on Sept 11, 1864 and arrived in Cayenne on Nov 30, 1864. There were277 Indians aboard. There were 195 men, 54 women, 14 boys, and 14 Childrenless than 10 years old. One man and one woman died from typhoid by the timethey reached Reunion which was one of the scheduled stops on this voyagewhich took forty-days. Of the 277 Indians 12 men, 5 women, and 2 of thechildren were from Karaikal. J. Plomb was the ship's surgeon 2nd Class.===
Cayenne received about 8,500 East Indian indentured laborers, or "LesIndiennes Engage". Many died in that colony, succumbing to disease and thehardship of their plantation service. Many of the records for Cayenne werelost in fire (like St. Lucia, St. Kitts, Nevis, etc) so not much is knownabout the Indians there. The information above was found in the MaritimeRevue in a French Library.
Cheddie
Richard Bond Dec 17 2004, 5:24 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:24:50 -0500
Local: Fri, Dec 17 2004 5:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Carib-L] Nicolas Poussin: Ship that transported 277 Indians t...
Aren't the East Indians in Cayenne in the minority? If the colony hadthat many engagees I wonder where they went. Projecting the same sort ofincrease that they had elsewhere there should be many more. According tothis statistic sheet the Indian community must have merely doubled inthe past century. British Guyana was pestilential as well but theincrease seems to have been more.
E-thologies: French GuianaAddress:http://www.e-thologies.com/nav-en.asp?ISO=GF
I was extrapolating before from family stories of people I had met.
Richard B. Cheddie Dec 19 2004, 3:19 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:19:05 GMTLocal: Sun, Dec 19 2004 3:19 am
Subject: Re: [Carib-L] Nicolas Poussin: Ship that transported 277 Indianst...
The East Indians in Cayenne are in the minority. Over 8,000 were indenturedthere, but I do not know how many returned to India. I do know that manydied in that colony. For whatever the reason info on Cayenne tend to bescarce, even though they play a vital part of France's space program andFrench Foreign Legion train there and protect some of those sites. I amcontinuing to dig to see what I can find.
Thanks for the link below.
Richard B.Cheddie
Richard B. Cheddie Jan 9 2005, 8:20 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:20:16 GMTLocal: Sun, Jan 9 2005 8:20 pmSubject: Roll Call: St. Lucia Rati, Merai, Chedi, Kisna, Badal, :Antigua: Appleton, Solomon, Henry, Patience
I love these roll calls because everyone become re-energized and some of the
best tidbits get posted:
My personal Research is for the Rati, Merai, Chedi, Kisna, and Badal Indianfamilies that were indentured in St. Lucia. Joseph Rati, Soban Rati, RamdathMerai, Badalia Merai, Joseph Chedi, Ram Chedi, Roopan Chedi, Dina Chedi,Merilia Kisna, Rose Kisna, and Ma Badal.
In Antigua, the descendants of Jane Ann Henry and Robert Appleton (I findthese two name couplings in Barbados, but I have no record of the familycoming from Barbados), Mary Patience, Olive Solomon, and Doanes Solomon
In Trinidad, descendants of Mamraj Singh and Parvati Singh, Elesebeth Sammy,Mary Roopmin, Beni Madho, Charlotte Madho, Mongroo Joshua, and Cheddie
I also research the East Indian indentured laborers in Caribbean Basin:www.geocities.com/yuddh1 and www.groups.yahoo.com/group/bhatchaman.
Regards,
Richard B Cheddie
Richard B. Cheddie Jan 23 2005, 11:58 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:58:35 GMTLocal: Sun, Jan 23 2005 11:58 am
Subject: St. Vincent's East Indian Diaspora
St. Vincent's East Indian Diaspora -This article was written by Steve S. Bullock, a descendant of indenturedIndians on St. Vincent. Bullock is the Associated Press reporter on St.Croix in the United States Virgin Islands. He is also a part time professorat the University of the Virgin Islands -
The following is based on my research into the origins and settlements ofindentured east Indians on St. Vincent between 1860's and 1920's.
At least four brothers with the last name Ram Ballack Singh were part of acontingent that came to St. Vincent from the Bihar province.
Each was assigned to separate estates in Argyle (southeast coast of theisland), Calder-Escape (five miles away), Fountain, south of the island(four miles from the current location of the E.T. Joshua Airport, and in the
Yambou-Acers-Dickie area, located six miles inland from the Argyle estate.
The Indians who settled in Argyle-Calder-Escape-Yambou areas worked on theArgyle Estate, which was one of the largest sugar cane plantations on theisland.
Many subsequently befriended King Jaja, (1821-1891) the exiled king of Opobo(Opobu), Niger Delta, who was banished to St. Vincent in the early 1880'safter he opposed British interference and colonial attempt to monopolize thelucrative palm oil industry in the delta regions of Nigeria, which his AnaPepple Trading House (tribe) controlled.
King Jaja was taken to St. Vincent and lived for about three or four yearson the Spring Estate, located to the north (on the outskirts) of the ArgyleEstate.
King Jaja and the Indians of the day shared and learned from each other'sagriculture and culinary traditions before the British agreed to repatriatehim to Africa.
He died en route to his native country, according to the British.
He was so loved and adored by his Opobo people that they offered to pay theBritish to return his body to Nigeria, where he was buried.
My research and interviews with ancestors of the four brothers indicate thatall four came with their wives from India.
Their last name Ram Ballack Singh was changed by the plantation owners toBullock, which is a popular Anglo-American (Caucasian) last name. Forexample Sandra Bullock, the American movie star and Mayor/Councilman SteveBullock of Lewisham, London, England
The Bullock's family and lineage is now one of the more prominent Indianfamilies on St. Vincent.
Their extended family number about 500 and they continue to live in oradjacent to their original settlement locations.
The Bacchus family is another prominent Indian family who settled in theRichland Park area of the island (five miles north of Marriaqua located inthe middle of the island).Many descendants from the Bacchus and Bullock families subsequently marriedand are now closely related by marriage.
Other indentured Indians who were brought to St. Vincent were also given
(assigned) Anglo-Saxon surnames including Deane, Lewis, Laban, Woods, Jack,Latchman, Baptiste, Carr, Harry, Sutherland and Leisure.
One or two families were allowed to keep) retain their Indian names. Forexample, the Singh family of Dickie.
Today the descendants of Indian indentured servants in St. Vincent numberbetween 3,000 and 4,000 out of a total population of 115,000.
Many are prominent government employees, including doctors, dentists,bankers, and educators, while others are involved in commercial andentrepreneurial activities.
One prominent Indian, Dr. Sinclair Thomas, an ENT Specialist, was a senatorand minister of Health in the former James Mitchell administration between1996 and 2000.
Dr. Junior Bacchus, another indentured Indian descendant is a prominentoptomologist on the island.
Murray Bullock is the director of the government run St. Vincent & theGrenadines National Lotteries.
Indian owned businesses include JAX (Jack's) Enterprises, Summer Ware,Linmur, Murray's Ville, Deane's Pharmacy, Eatrite, Ken's Enterprises.
Many have intermarried with other races including the indigenous CaribIndians, Afro-Caribbean and Garifuna extractions.
Garifunas or black Caribs are descendants of Carib Indians whointermarried/interbred with African slaves who were shipwrecked or broughtto the island.
Most of the original Garifunas (4,300) were captured/abducted by the Britishcolonial powers and banished to two barren/uninhabited islands ( Baliceauxand Battoweia) located a few miles south of St. Vincent in 1797.
The Garifunas were later taken to Roatan, an island off the coast of CentralAmerica near Honduras and were subsequently resettled in present dayBelize.
Many of the remaining Garifunas who escaped British capture live today inthe north and northeast coastal areas of Sandy Bay, Owea and Fancy in anunofficial Carib reservation.
Many descendants of indentured Indians and Garifunas have intermarried.
Today, Indians live in other areas of the island, including, Georgetown,Dixion, Caratal, Park Hill, South Rivers, Colonaire, Dorsetshire Hill,Biabou, Rosehall and Mesopotamia.
Richard B. Cheddie Jan 23 2005, 10:41 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:41:19 GMTLocal: Sun, Jan 23 2005 10:41 am
Subject: Guadeloupe is conducting end of celebration of the 150th anniv of the arrival of indentured laborers
Today Guadeloupe is conducting the closing ceremony of their year longcelebration of the 150th anniversary of the arrival and contribution of theEast Indian indentured laborers to the island. This ceremony was to havetaken place in Dec, but because of the earthquake they moved it back toJanuary. In respect for the victims of the tsunami victims, the largercelebrations have been scaled back. They will be erecting a monument, whichwill also be inaugurated by M. Lurel, President of G'pe Regional Council andM. Henri Bangou, Mayor of Pointe-a-Pitre. It faces the sea at the very spotwhere the first Indians landed in 1854. It's a modern representation of amonument with Indian/cosmic symbols.The text on the plaque is both movingand enlightening.
Martinique had their celebration in 2003. There are still a number of formercolonies for which the 150th anniversary has not yet arrived: Grenada(2007), St. Vincent (2011), St. Lucia (2009), St. Kitts (2011), Nevis(2024), St. Croix (2013), Suriname (2023), and Belize (2007)
Richard B. Cheddie Nov 18 2004, 12:46 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:46:11 GMTLocal: Thurs, Nov 18 2004 12:46 pm
Subject: Article I wrote in 1997 on Researching in St. Lucia
Saint Lucia is a 238 square mile Caribbean island nation about 1500 miles SEof the US mainland. St. Lucia has a very rich and colorful history from itsinhabitation by South American Indians, colonization by European powers, to
the introduction of African slaves and East Indian indentured laborers. Itis this blend of cultures that make St. Lucia a very interesting place tovisit. I recently returned from a two-week trip to St. Lucia where I met mypaternal kin for the first time and tried to trace one hundred years of myfamily's history on the island.
When researching your St. Lucian heritage the first thing that you have toremember is that your family is the greatest source of genealogicalinformation. They may hold the key to finding out that one vital piece ofdata necessary to close a whole chapter of your research. I was able to seepass a couple of clerical errors in the records I researched because I tookthe time to interview, re-interview, and cross interview my relatives beforeI went to St. Lucia. Take the time to note the names and nicknames that theygive you. Find out what part of the island the family lived, worked, orvisited. It will pay dividends.
Nicknames in St. Lucia are so common, even friends and family members mayknow each other only by their nicknames. Hardly anyone knew my grandfather'sname was Richard, but mention the nickname "Chum" and you would get an earfull of his antics. Friends, family members, and even enemies gave most ofthese nicknames to the individuals from early childhood and the names stuck.
Another thing to remember when searching for leads in St. Lucia is that mostSt. Lucians are either descendants of former African slaves or East Indianindentured laborers. A vast majority of them were coerced or forced to bebaptized, after which they were given Christian names. For example, mypaternal great-grandfather Ramdath Mirai was given the name Peter afterbeing baptized. Depending on the time of baptism, some of the birth recordslisted his children as being fathered by Ramdath Mirai , Peter Merahie, oreven Ramdath Peter. It did not help that most of the Catholic priests at thetime were French, which resulted in further variation of the spelling ofMirai: Merahie, Merraie, Meralice, Maralice, Murai, etc. There are alsocases where the Christian name was added in front of the original names. Mygreat-great grand Uncle Ram Cheddie was baptized as Paul.In the records held by the Catholic Church, all of his children have theirfather listed as Paul Ramcheddie. The priest also wrote Chedy instead ofCheddie. To add further challenges to the arduous researcher, the EastIndian laborers who were given Christian names after baptism often passedthis new name onto to their descendants as the family's new surname. Mygreat-great grand Uncle Sobhan Rattie's descendants still sign Antoine astheir surname today.
The Central Registry is the second best source of genealogical information.However, it can be the most difficult place from which to obtaininformation. Baptisms, marriage, divorces, deaths, name changes, land deeds,and a slew of other vital statistics are deposited in the Central Registry,
some going back to the 1600's. Although there are a few computers availableto the clerks, virtually all the information are still maintained in logbooks. The front entrance of the Registry is a short hallway with countersand a wire mesh screen on the right side. You take a number and wait until aclerk calls on you. The Registry is a very busy place. The best time to goto there is early in the morning before the crowd does. By the lateafternoon, the heat, crowded hallway, and frustration of the patrons can getthe best of any clerk and lessen their enthusiasm to help you. You wouldneed some form of I.D. and a little extra cash since a certified copy ofyour document could cost $5.00 USD or more; especially if the clerk has tosearch through many logs to find your information. Some searches could takemore than a week, so doing one's homework can help cut this time downgreatly, and even put a smile on the clerk's face. I find that it was a loteasier to mail in my requests. It cut down on the expenses by half and aresponse was often more forth coming than going there in person. I sendUS postal money orders of $5.00 for each search.
The Catholic Church Presbytery is the third main source of genealogicalinformation in St. Lucia. The hours for the Presbyteries vary. They normallyoperate between the hours of 09:00 AM to noon, are closed from noon until3:00 PM, and then are reopened from 3:00 PM to 5:00 PM. They are closed onTuesday or Wednesday, always on Sunday. Saturdays are normally only halfdays. There is usually a church in each of the larger towns, so it is veryimportant that you find out which area your family members lived during thetime of their births, death, marriage, etc. Records of these events are keptin logbooks, one for each year, at the Presbytery. Each of these entries isgiven a reference number and is listed in order, by year, in an index log.Index logs contain listings for more than one year.
The index logs are the keys to the vast storehouse of information kept byeach church. A typical baptismal listing would have the individuals name,year, and place of birth, name of mother, name of father, and names ofgodparents. After the clerk finds the correct listing in the index, thereference number is used to look up the corresponding logbook entry. Acertified copy of the entry can be had for $5.00 EC or less than $2.00 USDin cash. Entries prior to 1960 were typically written in French. If you knowFrench ask the clerk to let you read the entry. It typically contains one ormore valuable pieces of information that would not be placed on the copy ofthe certificate that you get.
After X amount of time all the logbooks are sent to the Central Registry inCastries. For instance, all the logbooks before 1920 for Vieux Fort, thelargest city at the south end of the island, have already been moved to theCentral Registry. However, each Presbytery maintains a copy of the indexlogs for their church only. I was able to search indices that go back to thelate 1700's in Micoud, another town on the East of the island.
The fourth valuable of source of information is St. Lucia National Archives.The archive houses some of the oldest material available on the island. Ithad quite a bit of information dealing with European sources, as well as,those dealing with the importation of East Indian indentured laborers.Private Citizens donated many of the documents found in the there, or copieswere obtained from other Caribbean archives, such as from Grenada. Many ofSt. Lucia's original records were lost in two great fires, one in 1927, andthe other in 1941.
The St. Lucia National Archives is located right next to the airport inCastries, the runway being only a few hundred yards away. A taxi ride fromCastries is cheap. It is one of the few places I visited that allowed me tophysically search the records at my own leisure. Once again a basicunderstanding of written French, or good a French dictionary would be a goodinvestment before searching here. There was only one computer available, butit was not available to the researcher. A photocopier is available.
The last major source of information is the Central Library. The pickingshere are slim, but you can never tell when a gem may be found among thevarious works. On my trip I was able to obtain a very informative paper onthe East Indians indentured laborers in St. Lucia. The reference section islocated upstairs in the library. Bags and large purses are not allowed intothe reading area to prevent book theft. They can be left at a check instation near the front receptionist desk, where an attendant keeps watchover them.
The key to researching in St. Lucia is to be persistent and thorough. Evenif someone says that a particular record is unavailable, still search forit. It may turn up in the most unexpected place. A source of informationthat I heard was available but did not tap into, was the private collectionsheld by some former plantation families. No one knows how large this sourceis, but the value of it should not be underestimated. Plan your searchescarefully and you will not be disappointed.The final tip that I can offer is when going about to conduct research, beaware that some places do not have public places to eat, especially in somesmaller towns. Moreover not all places have public restrooms. There is oneat the Archives, none at the Central Registry, and some Presbytery do nothave one, but the church would. In either case walk with your own supply oftoilet paper.
Richard B. Cheddie
Richard B. Cheddie
Nov 23 2004, 10:18 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:18:41 GMTLocal: Tues, Nov 23 2004 10:18 pm
Subject: The Archives Indian Labour
It always amazes me when I run across new websites concerning East Indianindentured laborers online. It is good to see this information out there.I spend many hours seeking them out.
I ran across this one
The Archives Indian Labour
http://www.indialabourarchives.org/home.htm
Richard B. Cheddie Nov 24 2004, 7:46 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:46:27 GMTLocal: Wed, Nov 24 2004 7:46 pm
Subject: The Search for East Indians Indentured laborers in the Caribbean Continues
I spent most of today searching the internet and e-mailing variousArchivists and Librarians around the world on my project of documenting allof the ships that brought East Indian indentured laborers to the Caribbean.I also requested a few more searches in the PRO. I am hoping to get
1. Document Reference(s): CO 384/103Instructions for Copying: Portions that include the Ships and names of EastIndian Labourers. At least Surgeon Certificates
2. Document Reference(s): CO 384/102Instructions for Copying: Portions that include the Ships and names of EastIndian Labourers
3. Document Reference(s): CO 384/110Instructions for Copying: Portions that include the Ships and names of EastIndian Labourers
4. Document Reference(s): CO 101/116Instructions for Copying: Portions that include the Ships and names of EastIndian Labourers (CO 101/116/23 )
I hope to increase our knowledge of laborers.
Richard Cheddie
Richard Bond Dec 10 2004, 6:49 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:49:10 -0500Local: Fri, Dec 10 2004 6:49 pm
Subject: Re: We finally have the list of ships that took the East Indian ind...
Most of the East Indians who went to Cayenne did not go theredirectly. The French colony had a small and highly cyclical economy thatdrew in people from the other French colonies and the patois speakingBritish Windward colonies. Likewise many of the Surinamers were alsodown coast migrants from British Guyana. The Dutch colony of Surinam hadsufficient scale for direct shipment but a lot went through Guyanafirst.
Richard B. Cheddie Dec 12 2004, 2:48 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:48:08 GMTLocal: Sun, Dec 12 2004 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: We finally have the list of ships that took the East Indianind...
That would explain a lot. I spent a few days exploring some info from Franceand I found some info on the Nicolas-Poussin which took laborers to Cayenne.
I think that country lost a lot of records in a fire some years ago. Fireseem to be the bane of all researchers in the Caribbean, which is why theyshould be working in digitizing their info.
Cheddie
Richard Bond Dec 17 2004, 5:24 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:24:50 -0500Local: Fri, Dec 17 2004 5:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Carib-L] Nicolas Poussin: Ship that transported 277 Indians t...
Aren't the East Indians in Cayenne in the minority? If the colony hadthat many engagees I wonder where they went. Projecting the same sort ofincrease that they had elsewhere there should be many more. According tothis statistic sheet the Indian community must have merely doubled inthe past century. British Guyana was pestilential as well but theincrease seems to have been more.
E-thologies: French GuianaAddress:http://www.e-thologies.com/nav-en.asp?ISO=GF
Richard B. Cheddie Dec 19 2004, 3:19 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:19:05 GMTLocal: Sun, Dec 19 2004 3:19 am
Subject: Re: [Carib-L] Nicolas Poussin: Ship that transported 277 Indianst...
The East Indians in Cayenne are in the minority. Over 8,000 were indenturedthere, but I do not know how many returned to India. I do know that manydied in that colony. For whatever the reason info on Cayenne tend to bescarce, even though they play a vital part of France's space program andFrench Foreign Legion train there and protect some of those sites. I amcontinuing to dig to see what I can find.
Thanks for the link below.
Richard B.Cheddie
Richard B. Cheddie Jan 26 2005, 6:57 pm
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:57:45 GMTLocal: Wed, Jan 26 2005 6:57 pm
Subject: Names of 20 Indians who arrived on the Travancore to St. Vincent June 1, 1861
The Travancore was the first ship to transport East Indian indenturedlaborers to St. Vincent. It sailed from Madras on February 26, 1861 with 258laborers. Two infants were born during the voyage, which took 92 days. Therewere 160 adult males, 62 adult females, 18 boys, 13 girls, and 7 children.Since these were South Indians, the authorities would have had a harder timespelling the laborers name correctly. Note #8: Beemah v.s. Bima.
The rest of the info (age, father's names, etc) on these individuals will beloaded on my website, www.geocities.com/yuddh1 , later today. I have to doit piecemeal since it costs to order the reference materials and transcribethem in readable format, or fellow researchers have to adjust their ownschedules to copy info and send me.
Slowly, but surely I am uncovering this info. Enjoy:
1--Cheugleroyew2--Patradoo3--Seethiah4--K. Suttiah5--Yerrigadoo6--Chinniah7--Rajeegadoo8--Beemah9--Singapermall10--Nursimloo11--Pynidiah12--Appadoo13--Ramadoo14--Juggaloo15--Ramaloo16--Appadoo17--Ramdoo18--Ungadoo19--Thummadoo20--Neukiah
Sincerely,Richard B. Cheddie
Richard B. Cheddie Feb 5 2005, 7:30 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 23:30:04 GMTLocal: Sat, Feb 5 2005 7:30 pm
Subject: 226 names for the St. Vincent ships
I have uploaded all 226 names for various ships transporting East Indianindentured laborers to St. Vincent and I am in process of acquiring thenext 103!
Remember that the names are in order by Registry number so you may have toscroll down lists on www.geocities.com/yuddh1 under St. Vincent, to see allof the names that I have posted. Those that have the "?" means that I had toguess because of challenges in reading the original.
Happy hunting for your ancestor.
For those that are interested in the Portuguese in St. Vincent, there is anIndepent Researcher that I can provide contact info on that would be willingto take up the search.
Richard B. Cheddie
Richard B. Cheddie Feb 9 2005, 12:11 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Richard B. Cheddie" <[email protected]>Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 04:11:55 GMTLocal: Wed, Feb 9 2005 12:11 am
Subject: Names Travancore to St. Vincent 1861
I received, transcribed, and uploaded today, 230 names of the 260 EastIndian indentured laborers for the Travancore to St. Vincent in 1861. Thislist includes father's name, age, height, sex, districts, villages, and bodymarks.
These are on my website at www.geocities.com/yuddh1
I am expecting additional info on the St. Vincent ships.
Richard B. Cheddie
"Cyril Jardine" Jan 23 2006, 6:31 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] ("Cyril Jardine")Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:31:19 +0000 (UTC)Local: Mon, Jan 23 2006 6:31 pm
Subject: Presbyterians in Trinidad ca. 1890
I think my grandfather, James Toolsie, was a Presbyterian minister orcatechist in Princes Town from 1890 to 1924 when he immigrated to NYC. Howcan I verify this? Is there a central repository in Trinidad or elsewherethat contains the names of Presbyterian ministers and catechists in the EastIndian community of Trinidad?
Richard Bond Apr 21 2006, 3:17 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Richard Bond)Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 03:17:47 -0400Local: Fri, Apr 21 2006 3:17 am
Subject: Re: Richard Bonds email [Carib-L] Fw: Re:History of Haiti
I was born on St. Croix, USVI and I have been inerested in history ofthe island since an early age. There is a picture of me in the NationalGeographic in an article which ran in 1972. It shows me at the WhimGreat House Museum at the age of 11. My mothers mothers motherwas a Busby whose father was an East Indianimmigrant who raised small livestock at variousplaces on the island. My mother moved back from St. Thomas in 1948 andmy father moved there in 1952.
I believe that there were some plays held in front of the fort which ofcourse is near the old printing shop. There were also some taverns onHospital Street but I do not remember or know the details. there werestill Neumanns living in the neighborhood forty years ago.
Lisa Hall Apr 23, 10:28 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Lisa Hall " <[email protected]>Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:28:03 -0400Local: Mon, Apr 23 2007 10:28 am
Subject: Birth Records in Trinidad
I have been trying to get some birth records 1890-1900 and I have justbeen told by the archivist at the National Archives that they are in abad condition and can not be made available to the public.
It is so vexing and frustrating for me as a Trinidadian to get anyinformation that is over a hundred years old.
Lisa
Apr 23, 2:15 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected]: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:15:28 -0400Local: Mon, Apr 23 2007 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Birth Records in Trinidad
Have you tried the Mormon Library (www.familysearch.org)? They ahve microfilmed/microficed most of the records in the Caribbean, and you can borrow them to view at a Mormon Library near you.
Jennifer
Nevilla E Ottley Apr 23, 7:25 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Nevilla E Ottley" <[email protected]>Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:25:59 -0400Local: Mon, Apr 23 2007 7:25 pm
Subject: RE: Birth Records in Trinidad
The Mornan LDS IGI do not have many Trinidadians, but more of the upperCaribees (Jamaica, Antigua, St Kitts--called St. Christophers) and almostall of Barbados. I have noticed that they have T'dad from about 1900.
John Weiss Apr 23, 7:43 pmNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: John Weiss <[email protected]>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:43:21 +0100Local: Mon, Apr 23 2007 7:43 pm
Subject: Re: Birth Records in Trinidad
A few years ago, when most of the BMD records were still in the Registryarchives in the Red House (in the 'Vaults') I had special permissionfrom the Registrar General to browse early volumes for my research intothe Company Villages near Princes Town. Some volumes had already gone tothe National Archives for conservation, and many of those that I lookedat were in such fragile condition that I recommended more ought to go tothe NA immediately and should not be handled again - in some cases apage would fall into fragments as soon as you touched it, leaving ajigsaw puzzle for a good conservator to sort out. I would have thought1890-1900 would be in a better state, but it's quite right for the NA totake no chances, and I suspect they have not the resources needed tocheck the condition of everything. It's a shame the early documents werenot filmed years ago, but it's likely that by the time filming wasconsidered, they were already too fragile for the handling that filminginvolves.
John WeissLondonResearching the origins of the Merikens of the Company Villages of Trinidad(see www.mcnish-weiss.co.uk)
Nevilla E Ottley Apr 24, 8:57 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Nevilla E Ottley" <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:57:25 -0400Local: Tues, Apr 24 2007 8:57 am
Subject: RE: Birth Records in Trinidad--WE CAN HELP MAKE THEM AVAILABLE
I know. So do I. My grandmother was born in 1895, and my great-grandmotherwas born in 1861, but I have not been able to get their birth records, justdeath records. I wonder if they would let some of us volunteer to helppreserve those records.
Why do I say so? I went to the PRO in the UK, thanks to the kindness of Dr.John Weiss, and with my digital camera, and no flash, was able to get picsof important records. Suppose, just suppose, there was a project, wheresome of us "genealogists" were to go to Trinidad, and volunteer to spend aweek photographing the records for their website. Then they would be ableto share them with us all over the world without again touching the recordsthemselves. Just 12 people helping one week each would be 12 weeks of work,and a lot can be accomplished. They would handle the records, and we wouldphotograph them, and download them on to their system from our cameras. Wewould help ourselves, for then the records would become available for us,and we would be helping them.
If you all think this is a good idea, then please share it with the powersthat be in Trinidad, and see what happens. I have to be in Trinidad twicethis summer on performance tours of two different groups. I could spend aweek in August when our performances are finished.
Nevilla E. Ottley in Maryland USA
Dorothy Kew Apr 24, 6:53 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Dorothy Kew" <[email protected]>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:53:41 -0400Local: Tues, Apr 24 2007 6:53 am
Subject: Re: Birth Records in Trinidad
The LDS (Mormons) have not microfilmed any records for Trinidad. A search of the Family History Library Catalogue brings up only a few books which are presently in the library at Salt Lake City and do not circulate to Family History Centres.
Dorothy
John Weiss Apr 24, 9:40 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: John Weiss <[email protected]>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:40:42 +0100Local: Tues, Apr 24 2007 9:40 am
Subject: Re: Birth Records in Trinidad--WE CAN HELP MAKE THEM AVAILABLE
Nevilla
Some of those Trinidad records really are in a bad condition, and Ireally did find some that were, unexpectedly, so fragile that the pagesfell to pieces as the book was opened. Even an experienced conservatorwould have some considerable trouble in opening those records safely,and I think they do not have enough trained staff even to evaluate allthe volumes, though if they could do at least that, they might identifythose volumes that would be safe to handle.
The photography aspect would be fine for those volumes that areaccessible, but as far as I know the standard restriction on photographyat the various National Archives is that the photography is for one'sown personal use and is not to be distributed in any way, and certainlynot published - that's the standard restriction at the UK NationalArchives (PRO) and I expect it's the same in the US. But a co-operativeand voluntary project of that kind would be worth discussing with theT&T Archivist.
I omitted to mention the possibility of church registers of baptisms,marriages and deaths. This requires a lot more searching around, firstto find out which churches might be involved, then to establish whetherthe records were preserved, and finally to find out who holds them. Idid this for Fifth Company Baptist Church in Trinidad (somewhere nearMatilda Junction) and was taken to meet the current pastor, who theninformed me that only a few years back, the woman who was responsiblefor holding the registers was so upset by a proposal to give the job tosomeone else that she burned the lot. So, it's not only termites andhumidity and poor quality paper you have to contend with.
John WeissLondon
Lisa Hall
Apr 24, 9:54 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Lisa Hall " <[email protected]>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:54:13 -0400Local: Tues, Apr 24 2007 9:54 am
Subject: RE: Birth Records in Trinidad--WE CAN HELP MAKE THEM AVAILABLE
That last paragraph describes the attitude of many in Trinidad. If wecan't do it then no one can.I have found though that the people at the National Archives are veryhelpful and are quite willing to help but of course they are bound bycertain restrictions.I was speaking to someone at the Registrar General's office and she saidthat she was lobbying for them to do a proper audit of the vaults.However when I spoke to the lady again she was leaving and was not goingto renew her contract with that office.I know with the Anglican Church each parish maintains their records. Iguess depending on the wealth of the parish that would probablydetermine the condition of the records.
Lisa
Nevilla E Ottley Apr 24, 10:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Nevilla E Ottley" <[email protected]>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:00:35 -0400Local: Tues, Apr 24 2007 10:00 am
Subject: RE: Birth Records in Trinidad--WE CAN HELP MAKE THEM AVAILABLE
Oh, what a pity about the condition. I went to the cemetery in SanFernando, where I found my grandmother's death records, and they were usingthe originals which were also falling apart!!!!! We were lucky as we knewher exact death date and could find the record even though part of the namehad been eaten away by age or whatever.
Whoever has the name of the T&T Archivist, and a contact number or e-mail,would you please share it with us. Then we can make a proposal to him orher on the "cooperative and voluntary project". The records would stay atthe Archives, but would be available for families to access their ownrecords.
Nevilla
Lisa Hall Apr 24, 10:23 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Lisa Hall " <[email protected]>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:23:25 -0400Local: Tues, Apr 24 2007 10:23 am
Subject: RE: Birth Records in Trinidad--WE CAN HELP MAKE THEM AVAILABLE
The Government Archivist is Helena Leon. The National Archives number is868-625-2689. Ms. Leon is a very beautiful lady I think she really wantsto do better but I think she is restricted by funding.
However where implementing policy (I think that is where the majorproblem is) it is very, very important that you also write a letter tothe Minister of Public Administration and Information. The Honorable Mr.Lenny Saith. The National Archives falls under his purview.
Lisa
Lisa Hall Apr 24, 7:21 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: "Lisa Hall " <[email protected]>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:21:15 -0400Local: Tues, Apr 24 2007 7:21 am
Subject: RE: Birth Records in Trinidad
I understand their position. The gentleman at the archives did say to methat they lack manpower and the resources needed to do the job. I thinkwhat is upsetting is that certain parts of my family history I have togloss over.
Lisa
LAnde12781 Oct 11 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indies
From: [email protected]: 2000/10/11
Subject: Re: Grenada Films, Spanish table cloth
Anne... about ordering too many LDS films.... seems there are a lot of ustryin g to search the very difficult Greneda.....and it took me almost fourmonths to get my film as apparently they were all out.....if you do getany....keep them for permanent if you can... My small LDs in the next townmistakenly sent them back and now I have to do it all over again...Plus ,..you will find your self wanting to go back and look at things again whenyou see a new connection...........I have been given a few film numbers thatweren't even on the file for film rental.....and that was only a yearago.......my little LDS church nearby had NO clue at all about Greneda muchless whre it was located......and I think I could have found more....Ifinally got the films given after an LDS member searched and came up withfilm numbers etc.........
When you go to the computer at LDS....first thing you do it to MAKE a COPY ofthe available films they have and once you have that sheet to go by then youcan check them off as you go.......I did that and what a help as I made noteson the attached sheet as too results ....(ex. a few were badly filmed and ortorn etc. and were almost unreadable ) it will save you a lot of goingback.... now its my turn to go back and do the same... as some of the filmsthat have been given on this site I had never seen listed.....
Be specific,,,if you can,,,, as some of these films were combined and somewere only pertaining to a particular parish etc......so if you you werelooking up records for the Catholic church...the Presbyterian church etc... found that out the expensive way.......
If you have any information as to new films etc...please pass them along...asI said I am discovering new ones all the time......thanks...would appreciateit... and be prepared to wait for your film...unless they have somespeedier methods by now....
Goods luck....keep me posted....
Lenora
ps... One last hint...when you order the films they will give you a cardboard backed slip for each film ordered.......best way to keep track of whatand where is to purchase one of those plastic check files the size of anenvelope and keep these cardboard slips in that.... and write on the backthe names you found on that film or any other comments you might want to goback to later........its easy to carry and an easy reference all in a small
compact carryable file......you'll be glad later!
Jim Lynch Oct 11 2000, 3:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Jim Lynch)Date: 2000/10/11
Subject: Re: Grenada Films, Spanish table cloth
To Lonora and everyone else...
For the general benefit of everyone on the interent I would be glad of anyadditional microfilm information that is not already in the lists on my site soI can make it as full and updated as possible... http://www.candoo.com/genresources/microfilms.htm
Please check what you have/know against what is already there, and let me knowof any differences. So much of the film numbers and references are hard to findin the LDS catalog and/or CD it is of immense benefit to have it all in oneplace where it can be printed or copied.
I am also very short on researchers available in the islands. If anyone knows ofresearchers who are not listed PLEASE let me have their contacts so I can offerthem FREE listing and find out if they are actively looking for such work. IWILL get their permission first, but I need the initial contacts - there is nocharge to be listed.
Thanks in advance...
James C. "Jim" Lynch416-968-9749http://www.candoo.com/http://www.candoo.com/resume/index.html
Tikwis Mar 8 1999, 4:00 amNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.west-indiesFrom: [email protected] (Tikwis)Date: 1999/03/08
Subject: Vital Records in Guyana
>I wish to check births and deaths in former British Guiana (now>Guyana) between 1860 and 1880. Can anyone advise the address of the>Guyana Government Department that would house these archives?>Thanks,>Ash
1. Government Archivist, Ministry of Education and Culture, 20 MainStreet, Cummingsburg. Georgetown, Guyana 2. Karen Sills, ChiefLibrarian, National Library, PO Box 10240, Georgetown, Guyana. 3.Registrar General, General Registrar Office, Guyana Post OfficeBuilding, Robb Street, Georgetown, Guyana.
A historian replied to a fellow researcher in 1997: "Compulsoryregistration of births and deaths in Guyana was not instituted untilthe middle of the nineteenth century. The Church of England and thePresbyterian Church in Guyana do have records of births and deaths forthat period for their own members, but these are not deposited in theNational Archives.In general I can only advice you that there are no facilities forgenealogical research in this country, and that owing to the fact thatthere are so many lacunae in both the public and private records,tracing ancestors is a tiresome and usually unrewarding business. Iknow of no-one who undertakes this kind of research locally, for thesimple reason that those who have some familiarity with the state ofthe archives and the fragmentary nature of the documentary heritage inGuyana, know very well the difficulties that are involved in suchinvestigations."
Thus one receives little satisfaction from Government Departments inGuyana. To date I have received no replies to any of the letters Ihave written over the past couple of years (even with the offer ofpayment); so I am building up my own collection of lists etc.
I hope you have better success.
I have two BDM indexes for The Colonist 1864 - 1880 and The Argosy1880-1896, which just gives the year the name is mentioned. If youwould like to let me know what the names are that you are researchingI'll check these indexes and my own collection of bits and pieces.
The above document makes interesting reading but there are a few inaccuracies. If you have questions please ask them in the Bhatchaman groups at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bhatchaman/Or e-mail me at:[email protected]