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TRANSCRIPT
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INTERVIEW WITH Willie Morris Jr.
VOICE OF CHARITY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Interviewed by Eleanor Bossu and Amy M. Tyson
January 18, 2013
Interview Audit conducted by: Amy M. Tyson
© 2013, Marillac St. Vincent Family Services / DePaul University Archives
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Bio Willie Morris Jr. was born January 17, 1945 in Chicago, and lived primarily on the West Side and South Side. He also lived two years in Arkansas. He attended several colleges, first with the goal of becoming a football coach, then to further his education in childhood development for his work at Marillac House. Finally, he went to divinity school to become a minister. After serving in the Army from 1965-‐1967 and serving in Korea, he returned to Chicago to a job with the Post Office. He began working at Marillac in 1968. Throughout his career at Marillac, he has worked with all ages, pre-‐teens and teens. The famous West Side Basketball Classic held by Marillac is now named in honor of him. At times in his career, his mother, sister, stepbrother and wife worked at Marillac, and his three children, Diondra, Willie, and Naeem each attended. He previously was a minister at another church on the West Side since 1991. He retired from Marillac in 1993 to become a full time pastor. At the time of interview, he was serving as the Pastor at Greater Union Baptist Church in the Marillac neighborhood. Abstract Willie Morris Jr. started working at Marillac House in February of 1968, after being discharged from the Army. His mother worked at Marillac and suggested he apply because he wanted to work with children. A year later he took a full time position as the director of the pre-‐teen program. He describes his memories about the neighborhood, before and after the 1968 riots and the changes that took place. He also describes working with the children in the large multi-‐purpose room at Marillac, and shares memories of how this room—once called “the Hangout”—was renamed “Myles’ Place” after a neighborhood boy who was killed in Viet Nam. He remembers his relationships with many of the Daughters of Charity, his involvement with the basketball tournament, the West-‐side Classic, and the changing community in the late 1960s (including emerging gang violence). Morris also discusses how he negotiated his faith and work as a Reverend with his work at Marillac and his observations on the changing community over the decades.
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Interview with Willie Morris Jr. Interviewed at 212 S. Francisco Ave. Chicago, IL, 60612.
Interviewed on January 18, 2013 Voices of Charity Oral History Project
Interviewed conducted by Eleanor Bossu and Amy M. Tyson and recorded by Eleanor Bossu
Eleanor Bossu – EB Amy M. Tyson – AT Willie Morris, Jr. – WM [and Deanna Hallagan – DH] Time Log .02-‐.42 EB: This conversation is being recorded for the oral history project.
Please let me know now if you do not agree to being recorded. You may request that the recording stop at any time. Today is January 18th. My name is Eleanor Bossu and I am here with Willie Morris and… [WM: Jr.] Willie Morris Jr., thank you, and Amy Tyson at Marillac Social Center in Chicago. This conversation is being recorded as part of an oral history project about the history of Marillac Social Center. So thank you so much for agreeing to do this. We’re really excited. [WM: No problem.] Could you tell us your full name?
.43-‐.44 WM: Willie Morris, Jr.
.44-‐.48 EB: Willie Morris, Jr. And if you don’t mind my asking, your age?
.48-‐.50 WM: 68, yesterday.
.50 AT: Happy Birthday!
.50-‐.56 EB: Yesterday? Happy birthday! And where were you born and raised?
.56-‐1.00 WM: Chicago, Illinois. [EB: Chicago?] West side and South side.
1.01-‐1.04 EB: West and South side? Where were you – where were you born?
1.05-‐1.09 WM: I was born in Cook Country hospital. On the West side of Chicago.
1.09-‐1.12 EB: On the West side? And you grew up primarily…?
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1.13-‐1.29 WM: Well, Cook County’s on the West side. We lived on the West side. Moved from the West side to the South side, back to the West side. And now I’ve been on the West side for the last – since 1971.
1.30-‐1.44 EB: Oh, okay. So you’ve been here for most… And what is – can you tell me a little bit more about your childhood, where you went to school?
1.45-‐ WM: We grew up – I grew up on the West side, of course that was in the ‘40s. We lived in the projects. I went to Midell school in my early years. From there I went to Doolittle school. And from there we – by the time I was old enough, we had spent a couple years in the South, Arkansas in particular, when my mother was divorcing my father because of abuse. And then we came back up her in 1950 – was it ’54, ’55? And I went to Philip Murray. Elementary school. Graduated from there, went to Hyde Park High School. Graduated from there. And went to Wilson Junior College, Malcolm X – I went to a lot of colleges. I went to colleges – college – Chicago State, U of I, went to Moody Bible Institute, so, that was some of the – for my education.
2.53-‐2.57 EB: Wow. Can you tell me a little bit more about all the different colleges you went to? What you studied?
2.57-‐3.55 WM: My initial piece came out of here, when I was at Marillac. Back in those days, they wanted staff to have childhood development – at least 6 hours of childhood development. But prior to that, because there was – when I went to college – my first year of college was 1964. And I wanted to be a coach. That was my goal – to be a football coach. So, I was taking physical education courses. Later on, because I was at Marillac, I began to take child development courses. And even then, I switched over – back to recreation. I wanted to get a recreation degree. And then, of course, later on, I wanted to be a preacher, a pastor. And I went to Moody Bible Institute, Trinity Reach program, and progressed from there. So…
3.56-‐4.11 EB: Wow. That’s a lot, that’s great. So you said that you started being interested in childhood when you – from Marillac. [WM: Right here.] So when did you first come to Marillac?
4.12-‐4.17 WM: I came to Marillac Feburary 4th, 1968.
4.18-‐4.21 EB: February 4th. How do you remember that date so well?
4.22-‐5.36 WM: It always stick in my mind. [EB: Really?] My mother was working here as a work – I just got my discharge from the army in ’67, September ’67. She was working here, she knew I wanted to work
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with children. At that time I went back to a job that I had prior to going to the service, which was a mail carrier. When you get out of the service, because it’s a government job, you can go back to it. So I did go back. [EB: Oh I see.] So I was working over here part time in February of ’68. And I was working at the post office and coming over here part time, and it was just exciting for me. So in ’69 I was offered a full time position. Everybody around me thought I was foolish to leave a secure job like the post office to come here where I took a tremendous cut in pay. But, it was something I felt God was calling me to. So I came here in February of ’68. I started working here part time in ’68. I started working here full time – I think it was September of ’69.
5.37-‐5.43 EB: Oh ok, so a couple of months. And what was your full time position?
5.44-‐6.02 WM: I was the director of pre-‐teens, the pre-‐teen program… [EB: Pre-‐teen]… when I started working. [EB: Can you tell…] I first was a group leader, when I was working part time, and then when they offered – Roy Pierson, never forget him – offered me a position as the director of pre-‐teen.
6.02-‐6.09 AT: Could you describe when you got here in February of ’68 what Marillac was like then and the neighborhood?
6.10-‐7.47 WM: It was – that’s a very good question – I didn’t do a whole lot of outside time stuff at that time. The reason that I remember that is because I came straight from my job at the post office and walked right into the building. But as I can remember, it was a neighborhood that children enjoyed playing… It was a poor neighborhood as I can remember, but people were enjoying life as they knew it. Of course, you got to remember in April of ’68 Dr. King was killed. And we were standing on the roof of Marillac House, the old Marillac, and watching the city burn. So that was a tumultuous time. That was a – it was – so from February to April, everything was fine. A little tension because there were civil rights marches, et cetera, et cetera. So there was some tension. But this was a primarily Black neighborhood. However, one of the exciting things that I remember was that there was a tremendous amount of respect in the given, in the general area for the Sisters. That was one thing that I noticed. Sr. Jane in particular. So it was a – you know, people were living life, but the tensions of the civil rights movement was certainly felt in this neighborhood. But it didn’t raise its ugly head until April of that same year.
7.48-‐8.01 AT: Could you – I’ve read a lot about that moment here at Marillac
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House in ’68, in April. Do you have any strong memories about like where you were when you heard about Mr. – Dr. King…
8.01-‐9.17 WM: I was, I was, where was I? Because I think he got killed in the afternoon. So I was here at work. Or was I at the post office – I can’t remember. But I do remember hearing news reports of things that were happening. And the amazing thing, Marillac – the old Marillac had a play roof. It was a flat roof where kids could go up. And that was the first time I had ever been up there. Because as a part time staff, that’s not a place that I would go to. But when that happened, I was shown how to get up there, I went up. And, wow, it was horrific. But again the amazing thing I remember is that Marillac was almost like a shield – was over this place. [Intercom in background.] No one touched it. They were burning and killing – yeah not killing, well they were killing – beating people. I saw people drug – white people drug from cars – dragged from cars. And beaten, et cetera. But they wouldn’t touch Marillac. I thought that was very – it was a phenomenal occurrence to me, so.
9.18-‐9.34 AT: I – did – this is just something I read and you were there, did – I read about like some of the children, some – a lot of the boys who were here at Marillac like kind of forming… [WM: forming a circle, yeah]… a circle around the place. Do you remember seeing that?
9.35-‐10.09 WM: Don’t remember seeing that. I do remember seeing individuals [paper crackling] kind of, I think as I recall around the gym, gym door and the front to ensure that people were not breaking windows. Because breaking windows and setting fires was the thing that they were doing. But there were individuals. It was amazing that I had heard of that. But I only saw individuals standing at the gym door and the front door as you go up the steps – that was there to protect.
10.10-‐10.12 AT: And what was it then like after that?
10.13-‐10.59 WM: It was, you know the tension was there. Some of it was somber, peace. Sr. Jane, as I recall was – you know Sr. Jane was Sr. Jane – and had no fear, as I recall. Programming continued. I think that there was a time when individuals were afraid to bring children, but on the other hand, I think they thought that this was a safe place to bring children – over here and the whole building. And so there was a lot of tension for weeks, you know, days and weeks to come. But finally, you know, police came.
11.00-‐11.15 EB: Wow. That’s amazing to hear. So, afterwards, you continued working at Marillac, throughout the 70s?
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11.15-‐11.37 WM: Throughout, yeah. I didn’t stop. Once I came in February of ’68, I stayed here until August of ’93.
11.27-‐11.41 EB: Oh wow. Ok, and what were some – so you said the early job that you were a group leader… [WM: Group leader – first job]… that was your first job. And then what were some of the other – you said then you worked with the preteen program?
11.40-‐11.59 WM: Group leader then I was promoted, actually what I considered taking the preteen director’s job fulltime. And went home and talked to my wife, and I took it.
11.59-‐12.02 EB: Wow. So what was the preteen program like?
12.02-‐14.51 WM: Preteen were children 6-‐13. It was housed in the largest room in Marilac which was called at that time it was called “the hangout.” The room itself was called the hangout. Very large room and shooting pool, playing ping pong, playing checkers, things of that nature. Activities designed for an afterschool program. So children came here, or came there, from two thirty until six o’clock as I recall. It was an afterschool program. So, normal activities. It was during that time that I having been a group leader in Kiddieville, that was the program that I worked – first program I worked for was Kiddieville under Barbara Bonner. I had learned some things. In terms of ok, if this was an afterschool program, primarily they were here to play. And so, being creative in terms of what type of activities would we would allow them to engage in. So the activities ranged over the years, of course back in those days, just as the things I mentioned: you know, ping pong, pool, we had tournaments, we went to the gym, of course basketball, things of that nature. So it was any type of –board game – at that time that we could come up with was a part of the atmosphere, just play. But play under supervision, play respecting each other, et cetera, so. Having been plunged into that, the Lord really blessed me to just be creative. But I will always, and if I don’t say anything else, one of the most exciting [things] over the years, it’s the staff that worked for me. I’ll always give them – and I won’t call anybody’s name, because if they do hear this… [EB and AT laugh.] But I believe I had some of the greatest staff there was to have in an afterschool program setting. Just fabulous people who came in with all types of ideas, which I was like a sponge, a sponge – took it from them. Those are, you know, in terms of activities. We got into arts and crafts which was a big thing over the years. So those were some of activities.
14.51-‐15.00 EB: Wow. That’s great. So I know you don’t want to talk about names, but it sounds like you had some great relationships with staff here.
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15.00-‐16.23 WM: Oh goodness. I wish I could, you know, remember – some I do but again I won’t call names… People who, you know from the neighborhood – that was the other thing that I liked, we hired people from the neighborhood – and then of course we began to up the requirement to work here, which was you had to have six hours of child development or some college, something, you just couldn’t come in off the street. But prior to that, there were just people that I got to know and I hired them because they seemed to be willing to work with children. So, yeah, but the staff – oh my goodness. Just individuals who were dedicated, I would say. And for some, it was a first opportunity to work with children. So it wasn’t just people who had prior experience. These were people who I had seen and offered a job. And some of them proved to be just fantastic. I mean, they proved to be – made my job and who I am, or who I was during those years – even who I am now – they played a tremendous role, tremendous role.
16.24-‐16.35 AT: Do you remember when they made that – made it a requirement to have the childhood education classes and where that kind of was coming from?
16.35-‐ WM: It came from certainly administration. Sr. Mary Lawrence was the first director I worked, I worked under. After her was I think Sr. Patricia. Not Patricia Dunne, another Patricia. [AT: Finnegan?] Yeah! Very good. [all laugh.] And I think it was under her administration that we wanted staff to have at least 6 hours of child development. But that came from, if I recall and it may not be true, from some of the monies we were getting. [AT: Oh ok, that makes sense, right.] [EB: Yeah, a requirement.] So they wanted to have staff that had at least 6 hours of child development, so I think it came from some of the grants or something that they required that.
17.29-‐17.30 AT: Thanks, sorry for…
17.30-‐17.40 EB: No that’s okay. Speaking of Sr. Patricia, though. Can you tell me about your working relationship with her? Some of the other…
17.40-‐20.07 WM: It was excellent; it was good. She you know, she was dare I say stern looking. Didn’t smile a whole lot. But I really think that she was imminently qualifies to be the director. I don’t know why this one particular incident is coming up. But I wanted a raise; I thought I wasn’t making enough. So I planned my little thoughts in my head. And I remember going to her in her office, and I had all of my – if she said this, I was going to say this, if she said this, I was going to say this. So I asked her, I said, “Sr. Patricia, I’d like to get a raise.” She said “Okay.” [EB and AT laugh.] That just destroyed everything I was
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going to talk about. And I just remember that you know, that was, that time in her office was very short because I thought I was going to have to be in there for a half hour, hour, hour and a half, giving her my reasons why I should get a raise. But Sr. Patricia and I got along quite well.
She also, I remember one particular incident, with some of the people who remember back in those days – a particular individual was brought in to be the program director – we had never had a program director. But this person was a nun. And, oh my goodness, we – we being the other department heads – really struggled with that. And it was like a slap in the face, because –one-‐-‐ why didn’t you pick from among us, why did you pick a sister? [EB: I see.] That thing went on for a while – that thing meaning a conflict, a struggle with this person coming in. But, at the end – end meaning after a year, maybe another year – it proved to be okay. We began to have a working relationship with this individual, and that was good. So we worked through, we learned how to work through problems and issues, talk about it, get mad, all of that. But in the end, it worked out fine.
20.08-‐20.11 EB: Wow, it sounds like… And Sr. Patricia was open to talking with you?
20.11-‐20.38 WM: She was the, well, she – initially our struggle was with her. [EB: Oh for bringing her in.] [AT laughs.] But then she was stern and said in essence this is how it’s going to be. And in essence if you don’t like it get to steppin’. Meaning you can leave. But she didn’t say it like that, but in essence that was – I thought she handled it quite well. She did alright overall.
20.39-‐20.47 EB: Yeah. Ok, so how long did you work in the preteen program?
20.47-‐21.50 WM: From the time – from ’69 all the way through… [EB: All the way, so you’ve always been…?] Except at in 1981, as I recall, I took over the teen department. Or they combined them. There was a preteen program, which I was the director of. And there was teen department, which another individual was director of. And I think it was in the ‘80s, the thought was to put the teen department under me. So it became the preteen and teen department; before it was just preteen. And then, I don’t know whether that was Sr. Patricia, probably was. I think it was her. But what with them together, I became the director over the preteen and teen program – preteen, teen, and young adult. [EB: Oh wow, oh my goodness.] So there was a teen and young adult program that had its own director; there was preteen which I was director of. So I think it was Patricia put all three up under my responsibility.
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21.50-‐21.54 EB: Under you. Was that difficult? A lot of – it sounds like a lot of responsibility.
21.54-‐23.01 WM: I knew the staff and the preteen and young adult – I mean the teen and young adult department – I knew the people, so it wasn’t… The biggest issue as you can probably, probably – was staff. Over a period of time, I got rid of some people because of some requirements et cetera. But it wasn’t that difficult because I’d work with the teen director at that time – who I will mention is Fred Williams. He’s now deceased. Good Brother, we had a great great working relationship. And so that went fine until he – he was also working part time. He was a full time, he was working for the – who was he working for – the state. Maybe he was a social worker or something. He worked here part time in the evening, and he quit to do that full time, so that was after I took over. But he and I worked together for years.
23.02-‐23.13 EB: Did you do other things other than just working at Marillac? Like I hear you were really involved in the community here. So what other…?
23.13-‐25.42 WM: Well, one of the things that Marillac – I’m trying to find the right word, for lack of a better word – encouraged, prompted me to do, I didn’t want to be just an inside director. Yeah, I knew – I worked at Marillac – when I moved back to the West side that was in ’71 and I’ve been here ever since. I knew more people here in this area, than I knew in my own neighborhood, and I’ve been there 25 years. I knew more people, I was closely related to people here, than over there. Which meant, going back to your question, yeah I spent time in the neighborhood. I spent a lot of time looking for things outside of Marillac to do. I was not satisfied that we just come here and play games in a big room.
So that began – we went to our first camping experience in the ‘70s and over the years we went to camp. We took a long – we used to take long bike rides from here to the Museum of Science and Industry, for instance. What I discovered, ladies, was something of a phenomenon to me, is that there were children – children that I worked with over the years, that lived and died in this community. And if was not for Marillac taking them on trips, they would have never gone. And we went to camp, I mean you name it, we would go – oh my goodness – we would look for places that children had never been before and take them. So that was something that resonated in my spirit. Get them out of this building. Take them out and let them see what else is out there. So that was a huge thing. So working with parents was something that I encouraged. We had parent meetings. We used to have family fun nights, which was a time which – the requirement was
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you had to come with a mother or father or both or an auntie or uncle, somebody. You had to come with a parent. Excuse me, we would eat, play games, so that was a way to get to know the parents. So that was a good time.
25.43 EB: Wow. Yeah, I think that’s really important to have experiences that…
25.49-‐26.26 WM: And that was something that I hadn’t done. But to be the program director, I saw it as a need, and of course going to college, they told you that stuff. I saw it as a need. I had to connect with parents. I had to connect with schools. There were three primary schools that we fed, which was Calhoun North, and South at that point. Calhoun North and South. That was Our Lady of Sorrows. And so getting to know teachers and principals. I saw it as a responsibility that I had, so I did that.
26.27-‐ EB: That’s amazing. That’s really a good point. Could you tell us a little bit about – I see that Amy has on her Willie Morris [shirt]. [AT laughs.] Can you tell me how you got started with coaching and with the basketball?
26.45-‐30.55 WM: Yeah, once again, Fred Williams – I mentioned him – he, as the director of the teen and young adult program, he started an outdoor basketball tournament, which ran for years. He did an excellent job. When he left in [19]81, I picked it up, because it was so successful, that I said I didn’t want that to fall through the cracks. And so, it was the Marillac basketball – I changed it to the Marillac Classic. And you can hear, I mean – Isiah Thomas played here, Mark Aguirre. Names. And this-‐-‐ again, Fred Williams was the one who got that whole thing going-‐-‐ and it ran for years, all the way up to the time I left. It was a great outdoor tournament. The gang problem created some issues. But it was one of the things that happened here that was well attended. The neighborhood – you couldn’t really get near the court almost— because of the people who had come to see it.
And every year, my desire, my thought, was to do something better. For instance, one of the great things that Fred would used to do, he would give some of the largest trophies that you could think of, I mean they were huge. [AT and EB laugh.] And then I kept thinking, I said, that’s great, I mean I like that. But what else could we do? And so I began to talk with staff, and we came up with the idea of getting jackets with, you know, the championships – so you could wear it. Out. You would, because to be crowned the championship – champion – at Marillac outdoor basketball tournament, you had… Because there wee teams – if you knew anything about teams’ basketball players –
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phenomenal basketball players. These were the cream of the crop. Many of these young men – we used to sit around and talk – could have made the NBA, no ifs ands or buts. But attitude, drugs, drinking, all of that. But fantastic. And so I was completely thrown off guard when Albert and – he was one of my preteens – and Deanna Hallagan – you know Deanna? [EB: Yeah.]… Called me and told me they were going to name – I was totally… [EB and AT laugh.] It blew my mind that they would even consider naming this tournament after me. I said wow. So, that was how it happened. It ran for years, and then because they moved to this building…
Just one point of history, under Sr. Yvonne – that was the last sister – we literally planned this building when we was at old Marillac. We talked about how we wanted – each department was supposed to design their own department. And under my department, of course, was a gym. A gym, and it was all mapped out. But I felt called to go to Circle Ministries, so I resigned. I resigned in June first of 1993. I didn’t leave until August twenty-‐first of that year. So I gave two months notice. And so because of – I had my replacement to replace me, but she really wasn’t the person for it. They dropped that whole part of the building. So that’s why this place doesn’t have a gym. [EB: I didn’t know that.] So that would be interesting to check with the sisters, but that clearly was part of it. Because there was nobody to run it. [EB: You weren’t there so that because you left….] [AT: You weren’t lobbying for it.] I have to use the rest room.
End part one.
.01-‐.12 EB: Okay [AT: This one.] Okay [AT: Is it on-‐on?] Yes. We are set.
.13-‐.18 [Deanna Hallagan walks into the room]: When you look, you’re going to be really impressed. That’s the gym.
.18-‐.19 WM: This trips me out.
.19-‐.20 EB: That’s the new gym?
.20-‐.24 AT: Ok, so what we’re looking at here is some pictures of the new Marillac community center.
.25-‐.28 EB: And of the new gym.
.30-‐.31 AT: Where’s this going to be – out here?
.31-‐.40 DH: It’s going to be across the street. Well Isiah Thomas wants to do the Willie Morris Tournament over there with – Peace
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Tournament. It’s going to be cool.
.40-‐.42 WM: OK I don’t want to get to [inaudible].
.42-‐.45 DH: I’ll come find you before you leave.
.45-‐.48 AT: So how does Isiah Thomas fit into this whole thing? [EB: Yeah.]
.48-‐3.50 WM: Well Isiah Thomas at that time was an NBA star, and he was personal friends with many of the guys who played out there – well not many, some. And so, over the years of this outdoor tournament, we would invite – the teams could be made up of anybody. Now we had restrictions, for instance, we had a 14 and under tournament. We had a 15 to 17, and then the adult. So there were several divisions. And of course he would be in the adult division. Teams could be made up of anybody. Now, one of the restrictions back during those days and still is to this day, is that a high school basketball player was never to play in tournaments like that. It’s because they could get hurt. They could never… And so we would work – for instance I used to work with – I forgot his name, the coach at Marshall – he would come by to make sure none of his boys were playing. Because it was an outdoor court, concrete – not concrete, asphalt. They could get hurt. And so we were trying to work with the schools and sure… Now, I’m sure some guys came through, but we didn’t want high school players to play because of injury, et cetera.
But Isiah Thomas, of course, was an NBA player and was one of the best as you –if you know anything about it. And so, he came and played with the team – not all of the games – I think one or two games he played. And of course it was a crowd pleaser. I remember his mother came. So again – I’m trying to think of some of the other name players. Michael Jordan came by but not to play. The sisters just brought him to take some pictures, et cetera. And so that was an exciting time. So we would – some of the players themselves or the sisters if they knew of a player who was willing to come by – sometimes they would just come by and make an appearance at the game. But like Mark Aguirre, who played for Detroit Pistons, he played. But again, many of these times it was one game, it wasn’t like they played throughout. So that’s how that would happen. It wasn’t a – they didn’t play – for instance we had a double... Anyway they played approximately 16 games before we came to the finals. So the team with the best record would make the finals. So Isiah was just one of many, not only professional, but college players would come and play. [EB: That’s amazing.]
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3.51-‐3.57 AT: Was that, now was it kind of like – did it work so it was like word of mouth or did you guys go out and find these people?
3.57-‐4.55 WM: The teams would do it. [AT: The teams would?] Yeah if you, you know, we would say ok – we would send out – we didn’t really have to send it out, but… For instance, after Fred left, I had the names of the previous teams who had played, so we would send them invitation. So that was one. Number two, word of mouth. There were times we had to reject teams because we had too many. In fact that was every year. If you didn’t get your roster – there were some requirements – you had to get a team roster in, you had to pay your money, and the first teams to do that would get their t-‐shirt and you’d be part of the West Side Classic. It was called the West Side Classic, the Marillac West Side Classic. And then it started, so I don’t know. I think it was like 10 teams, 12 teams, I don’t know I forgot.
4.55-‐5.00 AT: And the kind of celebrity players that would come in, would they jump in and play with a team, or just…?
5.00-‐6.27 WM: They were pre-‐selected. Of course, so for instance, I’m thinking of one team that won a couple of years, the Trailblazers. They were from across the bridge, which was something that we… And so, they would just select. Now, after a couple of years, we decided to put some rules because, as you can imagine, teams would put some zingers in. They would get Mark Aguirre or Isiah Thomas. [AT: Right.] [AT and EB laugh.] And put them in and of course… But the most amazing thing that we saw over the years is that many of the young men who played in this tournament literally were just as good if not better. But of course they never – because of all the other issues – didn’t go to college or whatever. They didn’t make the NBA and so you would see a battle out there that was akin to non, meaning that guys would try to show, “I can guard Isiah. I can out-‐shoot Mark Aguirre. I can do all of those things.” And that was a phenomenal, phenomenal time to see this battle with that round ball with ten men on the court. And so, they would go at it. I used to feel for the college … [AT and EB laugh]… because these guys would try to show that “I can take it. I can do it.”
6.28-‐6.34 AT: Now, was Marillac in Hoop Dreams at all? I know they were thanked.
6.34-‐6.52 WM: That – no, Marillac was – no I don’t believe it was. One of the gentlemen that was one of the stars – I can’t think of his name -‐ he played, I think he played here. [AT: In the tournament?] In one of our tournaments.
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6.53-‐7.07 AT: Okay, because I noticed, just I was looking online and it said that you know, thank you to Marillac House from you know… And I was like, “Oh what was the connection there. I know one guy I could ask.” [WM: There was one guy…] It’s you! [All laugh.]
7.08-‐7.35 WM: He played here; he played on one of the teams. And I’m to remember ladies – my mind is… Alvin Dibbs… My mind, it’s…. It was three, or one or two. I think there was one other that was featured… also played. But I’d have to jog my memory.
7.36-‐7.46 EB: Ok, wow. Yeah. That’s amazing. So I bet it’s… [Cough.] What is it like to see this new gym?
7.46-‐8.17 WM: Well, it’s amazing. As I look at this, the gym that I had designed, these pillars as you can see and this, was exact, I mean it’s exact. [EB: Really?] That was one of the things I wanted, yeah. So you know back here would be offices or the locker room. I mean exact. Because I don’t know, this is phenomenal, this is phenomenal. And then there would be offices and game rooms up above it. Amazing.
8.18-‐8.19 AT: Where are you going to put the crowd? [EB: Laughs.]
8.20-‐10.05 WM: That was the thing that I – they don’t have that. [AT: You got to bring that up.] Unless, yes, the questions is out in the outdoor tournament, one year, because we – people there had some, a couple wooden benches built along the outdoor court where people could sit down. But we were blessed one year to buy some bleachers – some rolling bleachers. And we would roll them out and people could sit on them. It was amazing; one year somebody stole the bleachers. That was amazing, but now that was one thing, that was one of the things I would have been cautious to put in. And that is bleachers that will pull out. Now this could be pull out bleachers like at Malcolm X. They have pull out bleachers because you know what you could do, you could push them back in. This might be, I don’t know. [AT: Yeah.] Or they could be at this end of the court. [AT: Or there’s a stage, they could put people on the stage.] That reminds me of the old Marillac. Have you ever been in the old gym? [AT and EB: No.] It’s the smallest gym in America. [EB: Oh no.] But we had some of the best – because when it rained, we had to come inside. And on one end, on the north end of the court, was a stage. And that’s where people sat. And, but you could – no one could sit on the side because the wall was out. But you could sit on the stage or you could be back here by the door, so this reminds me of that gym. The small gym, but we had great tournaments inside the gym.
10.06-‐10.32 EB: Wow. Ok, this is, it was really cool hearing about all of that – all
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your memories about the basketball classic. [Cough.] I guess to move on a little bit, Sr. Patricia told us another sister that you maybe worked with, Sr. Julia Huiskamp, do you remember her?
10.32-‐10.48 WM: Yes ma’am, that was my buddy. [AT and EB laugh.] [AT: Tell us about her!] Sr. Julia was – what was the name of that service? I forgot the name of the department she was in. Sr. Julia, short lady who was well respected, and she ran the department that dealt with the thrift shop, feeding the poor, et cetera. And she and I, I don’t know, we forged a great relationship in terms of, you know, she dealt with the poor, and she certainly knew some of the individuals that I worked with, their parents. And there were times that I could go down and get permission to go to the thrift shop, to have children to go and get clothing or some of my kids. And so that was a great working relationship because of the connection. Excuse me. Many of the children were poor, many, teens and children. So to be able to go to her and say, “Hey, can I go and get some shorts, or some pants, or some jackets, or some coats,” … was a great thing. As well as, she was instrumental on many things on some years. And getting someone to pay for my tuition. Because I wasn’t – wasn’t making that much here at Marillac House. So she was instrumental. I was very sorry that… Our relationship was just a great relationship. She was just fab – she was kind of tough. But that relationship in terms of being the first, we would – there were supervisor’s meeting, so we were all supervisors, so again... But outside of that, the pragmatic side of our relationship was because she ran the thrift shop and that. So whatever I needed, whenever I needed it, she was able to get it or supply it. So Sr. Julia, she was a good buddy.
12.49-‐13.04 EB: [Laughs.] Yeah. So you’ve worked with young people, with kids, pretty much your whole career. What are – why – how did you first start getting involved with – how did you know that you really wanted to work with kids?
13.04-‐18.13 WM: That’s an excellent question. I grew up in a Baptist church – Zion Hill Baptist church – where I worked with kids before I went into the service. And my mother was instrumental in seeing that. When I came out of the service I had – I was content to go back to my government job and be a mailman. But she saw something, and we would talk. And so she knew of that inner desire. And so she used to work in at that time what was called Tiny Tot Town. I don’t know if they still call it that. [AT: I read about it.] [EB: Yeah.] Under Bessie Houston. And when I got out of the service, she, as I mentioned earlier, she – it was her – under her – it was her suggestion. ‘Why don’t you come over to Marillac and get a part time job?” I said “Fine.” So I came over, applied for the job, and I got it. So my – the first inkling of
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it was in a church setting. I worked with kids there – volunteered of course. And my mother knew that. We all went to the same church. And when I got out of the service, it was just almost like the natural thing to do, to suggest to her son, “Why don’t you come over and see if you can get a part time job at Marillac?” So I did.
But I knew children – I’ve always enjoyed working with children. Some people used to call me the pied piper. I mean I just, I don’t know, it’s something that God gave me, and working with them and seeing them grow… For instance on of the things that we – and I don’t know where this came from – but if you talk to any of the kids who came through Marillac under me – we used to have what was called “rap session.” Rap session was something that – I don’t know where I got it from – but I would call all the kids up and they would form a horseshoe. And I would sit and we would talk about – you name it, we would talk about it. But over the years, rather than, “Okay, everybody, come on up,” we began to play songs. Which was a signal, it’s rap sessions. No matter what you were doing, where you were, when you heard these various songs, that meant, come up. So you didn’t have to holler and call. Because again, you’ve never been in Marillac, “the hangout” was a large room.
And significant story with the hangout – I didn’t like that name. So in 1970, one of the teens who had joined the service, Antoine – Anton Myles – got killed in Vietnam. He had been one of the teens, and he got killed. And I said, “Let’s rename ‘the hangout’ to Anton C. Myles Place.” So we had a memorial ball, this is where – again I’m telling you this is a phenomenal thing – the girls wore formal dresses and the boys wore Dashikis. And it was a formal ball for preteens, and that was introduced in 1975. We renamed the hangout to Anton C. Myles Place. We had a big portrait of him hanging outside the room with the little plaque with the write up. And his parents came, I don’t know, one of the city officials, somebody important, came, and the sisters, and we renamed it. And again this is just following a little of what you said, I felt that the hangout, that was the name that had been given to this room for years, but giving significance to young people who had done something. And at that time, the Vietnam War was going on, and it was a great opportunity to give back. It was a great emotional service because his parents came, his two sisters, to name it Anton C. Myles Place. The short name was Myles Place. That became the new name for our room, and right above as you walked in, so… Children and trying to encourage them and push them forward, school, whatever you… That was something that the Lord put in my spirit. I -‐ that was what it was all about. To try to encourage and to try to build a sense of pride in children.
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18.14-‐18.31 AT: [Coughs.] Could you try to do something for me, which would be to think back on the day that you had the formal memorial ball. [WM: Okay.] And paint a picture for us of when you walked into Myles Place, just what it looked like, what if felt like, what did you see, what did you hear?
18.31-‐22.00 WM: Well let me back up to getting a committee. [AT: Okay.] The idea – I don’t know where the idea came from – but we said, “Let’s get a committee of parents.” I remember my sister who is now deceased was on that committee and a number of other people. And we sat down and talked about “What could we do?” What – now I don’t know if you’re familiar with cotillions. Cotillions – it’s when these young girls are being presented to society. [EB: Coming out.] Coming out. Well it was on that order. And just to sit around and to plan, and the idea – and I’ve always been that type of person, I don’t have to be the big idea person. Like now, what type of ideas… And so we would, we talked about it and talked about it. We found another Cora, who is now deceased, who made the dresses Dashikis. [AT: Cora?] Cora, her name was Cora. And she made all of them. We got pictures of them; we got pictures of them. And we rehearsed; Bessie Houston was instrumental in a significant part of the entertainment activity. She worked with those boys and girls in songs. In that little bitty little gym, on that little bitty little stage. So we had it in two places, in the gym was the dinner, if I recall, Myles Place. So we had it in two places, one above the other.
So, to walk into Myles Place, or the Hangout, after we renamed it to Anton C. Myles Place, it was – I don’t know, I don’t want to say an epiphany; I don’t get off on all of that. But it was an exciting – it was a different day. Because many of the children who came in, at that time, some of them knew Anton. So to see his picture up there in his army uniform was encouraging to them. Now we didn’t want the message to be given that you needed to die to be important. But this was someone who served his country, and he died, and we wanted to name it in his honor. So, it was a sense of – we did it twice, the ball. But it was tremendously exciting, a tremendous amount of work, oh my goodness-‐ a lot of work, a lot of work. But it was so impactful, and we retained some pictures from that day – from those days – that to this day… And that’s one of the tings, in terms of memories, that’s one of the things that pop out because it was so significant. And building up the kids. Because they had to memorize some things. It wasn’t just – you had to do some stuff. And of course parents were proud to see their daughter or their son walk down that aisle. And it was just a great time. It was a great, great, great time.
22.01-‐22.07 AT: If I could just back up just a little bit to… We – you said you
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were in the service.
22.08-‐22.09 WM: I was in the service, ’65-‐’67.
22.10-‐22.14 AT: And were you called up? Were you drafted? [WM: I was drafted.] And were you sent over to…?
22.15-‐22.22 WM: I was going – I went to Korea. I was going – I was supposed to go to Vietnam, but I was to be sent into Korea.
22.23-‐22.42 AT: Okay. And did that – I don’t know how to ask this question – but did that experience shape you in any way in terms of how that affected later how you experienced life coming back? [WM: Oh, of course.] Because you went pretty quickly into Marillac House. And saying “This is what I want to do with my life.” So I’m just seeing something.
22.42-‐24.59 WM: The army played a tremendous role. And I came out, I made rank, so that was exciting. I wanted to stay in; I wanted to be a drill sergeant. So I brought a drill sergeant mentality to Marillac. [AT: How’d that work out? (laughs)] It worked out for a while. Also I learned martial arts overseas. And so my first volun – when I was working as a group leader, I would teach the children, you know, some moves. And the idea was to always try to present some type of program for parents and friends to come see. And, so part of the, again the experience in the service, led me to put on a demonstration of martial arts with the children. So the army experience played a tremendous role in terms of my – the way I presented and required certain things of the children. Sr. P[atricia] Dunne can give you – I was [laughs] a joyful guy – [EB and AT laugh.] but there were certain things I would not stand for. But even in that, the Lord gave me the ability to be able to do it in a joking way. For instance, I would tell… “I will knock you out!” But then, I’d have to – parents would be “What – who do they have working?” [EB laughs.] “Is this guy crazy?” But the kids knew I was joking because I would never hit a kid. But the threat – just like the drill sergeant in the army – they couldn’t hit us. [EB: But…] But they could curse. Of course I would never curse a kid. But, so I brought that army stern, sergeant, military piece here. But I also learned to be soft, stern, demanding. So it was a combination of working all of that together. And of course that’s why I stayed so long. Because over the years that combination; it worked.
25.00-‐ EB: Yeah, kind of that discipline that kids need…
25.02-‐28.16 WM: Absolutely, right. Getting up in their face, not taking anything from anybody, that was part of it. And then not anybody take
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advantage of my kids. I would have staff that I would confront. And I had such a love for the kids. It’s just something – I would not allow a staff to mistreat a child – I would never. But I must say, in the years that I was here at Marillac, there were three children – two I whipped – I actually whipped their rear end. Took them in my office. And I remember being so afraid when their mother came, I thought “This is it. They’re going to put me out of here.” But I told them, “I whipped your son, those two boys.” And both mothers said, “That was fine Mr. Willie, do it again.” And that I said, “Whoa.” Because I was expecting… They said… And these were two hardhead guys. But it was amazing. One of them, who became an army recruiter, he and I bumped into each other years ago, and he… We laugh about it, I mean, and it’s such, because there’s not a kid who came through Marillac who didn’t say, you know, “Mr. Willie loved me.” Ladies, one of – I have several, couple of them have joined the church that I am the pastor of now. And one of the most endearing terms that I hear today is “He raised me.” That blows me out of the water. “He was my daddy.” I said, “Wow.” I never thought any of that. But today when I saw a young man, almost called his name, at Walmart. He was with his wife and two children. He said, “This is the man who raised me.” You know, I was not – that was nowhere – that wasn’t even on my mind. But in those 25 years, I had the privilege of seeing children’s children. You know, the young man who, this young man… So I met him back in the ‘70s as a preteen. He grew up and I saw him leave and grow up, and some of them after they had their first child… So I said, “Wow.” So that blew my mind. Still blows my mind. But when I hear him that, “He was like a father to me. [EB: Wow, Pretty amazing to hear.] I never wanted accolades; I still don’t. I don’t like – this is a little -‐ I like talking about it. I don’t want – I don’t want any credit. Because I learned a lot about working with children from Mrs. Bessie Houston and Barbara Bonner. Barbara Bonner was in charge of Kiddieville. Bessie Houston was in charge of Tiny Tot. We worked hand in glove. Fantastic ladies. And so… A lot of memories – a lot of good memories.
28.17-‐28.21 EB: So the three of you kind have worked with the different age groups together?
28.21-‐29.15 WM: Barbara Bonner, yeah she had an afterschool – no hers was daycare. Bessie Houston – Tiny Tot and Kiddieville were both daycare. [EB: … Were both daycare. Okay.] …Program, right. We were an afterschool program. [EB: I see.] So our kids only came after school. But in the latter years, we had a before school program. [EB: Oh, like the kids could…] That was to get some – yeah they came, ate breakfast, and then we would send them to school. Yeah that was an exciting time. Because we were discovering is that many of our children were going to school, as they do now… [AT: Hungry.]
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Hungry, eating potato chips, or a doughnut or something. So we would… [EB: Offer that.] Yeah. It was a way of raising some additional monies. A dollar, or something; it was very cheap.
29.16-‐29.30 EB: Yeah. This has been really great to hear, especially with your work with the kids. And you talked a little bit about this, but could you tell more about some of the challenges and rewards working with the kids?
29.30-‐32.37 WM: I think some of the challenges were certain children who came from homes that were, of course, broken, there we say dysfunctional... Where a mother and dad, or mother who was living with a boyfriend, et cetera… Where discipline was not something that was done in a way that would build up a child, but was sometimes abusive. To – for a child to come up here in tattered clothing. Or for instance, we used to have – charge a dime to get in. Kid didn’t have a dime. “Come on in.” Who cares… To go to homes. I visited a number of homes, and to see what I saw was difficult. But to also – and I guess just part of the surrogate father image… I would visit schools, go to classrooms, on behalf of the children. So it was, I don’t know, it was a time in which – it wasn’t in the job description. It was just something that you did, and so some of the more difficult times… For instance, I remember this one -‐ this was in the latter years of my time here at Marillac – being a minister, I decided to have a Bible study that I would teach. And then that Bible study, at the end of it, I would certainly give what we call a challenge to surrender your life to Jesus Christ. And I remember this young man who did want God one time, but he was in a gang. And gangs at that time, they had you know, once in a while – or once in – you would have to take ‘50 to the head,’ which meant they would beat you. And I remember he accepted Christ, but some of the gang’s members were upset – they were upset with him. And I remember I used to walk him home; he didn’t live far. To protect him. Eventually his family moved out of the neighborhood, because he was being harassed. But there were fights that – and one of the – one of the old staff – and he -‐ I didn’t remember this until he said it, you know, it was a fight that broke out. And I jumped right in the middle of it… Took a couple blows. But I did not want my kids hurting each other. That was just…So it was a time of being a referee. It was a time of being a parent to a parent, you know. “That was wrong, you should do that, you know, let’s not beat or whatever.” It was… The gang thing stirred up real bad. That was a horrific time.
32.38-‐32.48 AT: When did you notice that the gang violence and the gangs really started in here? Like from the time when you first started in ’68 moving forward?
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32.48-‐36.54 WM: It was minimal back in the early years. It was happening – gangs. But it wasn’t until, I would say, the ‘80s that I began to see it growing and growing. Drugs was a part of it. And yet, praise God, gang members who used to come to our program. I remember this one night, we used to – in the early days before I… [AT coughs]… We used to give dances. And, of course the kids would like all of the lights out, but I said, “oh no.” [AT and EB laugh.] And we were literally, I would tell staff to walk around. Because we’re not having that – whatever they… And this one night, this young man, I heard he was bringing a gun. And so I called him to my office, and I said, “I understand you have a gun.” He said, “Yes.” I said, “Give it to me. I’ll give it to you – whenever you get ready to leave, I’ll give it back to you.” And he said, “OK, you’re going to give to…” I said, “Yes”. So, as was the case back, things jumped off. And he came up and said, “Can I have my gun?” I gave it back to him. Gangs began to grow and it became difficult. But Marillac still was that safe haven for many. The problem was though after they left – that was the problem. But it still – gangs tried to bring… For instance, I remember a gang leader coming to me once saying, “Can we have a meeting here at Marillac?” And I think I said, “okay, but I’m going to have to be in attendance.” And so, I think I had one. But then they kept… One of the things that – I don’t know if you recall this in those days – gangs used to go to centers and demand meeting rooms and, you know, “If you want to help us, give us a meeting room.” And I only – I didn’t like that demanding.
Then I discovered my office was right off the alley on the second floor, and I would look out the back window, and you would see them in a circle, going over their little, whatever they were doing. So it began to become very difficult for some of our young people to come in and be part of the program because [coughs] excuse me, they knew it was a safe haven, but they also – survival. You join a gang for survival. Now of course some join for other reasons, but survival is part of it. So I saw the gangs as a tremendously, for lack of a better word, it was intimidating to our kids. But again, I go back to my staff, I had some good staff who were not intimidated. There were some who were intimidated, but most of them were not. And the other thing is gangs respected Marillac. Except one particular incident, where they did break in and they jumped on one of my female staff. That was very hard to deal with. So it became more and more difficult, especially with the influx of drugs and power. Guys wanted to show that they could be powerful and bad. So that was part of it. I don’t know if I answered your question. [AT: Yeah.]
36.55-‐37.07 EB: So do you… You are a pastor now. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got called to the ministry, how long you’ve been a
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pastor, involved in your church?
37.08-‐38.01 WM: Ironically enough, I was here… The church that I am pastoring now, I was a member from 1975 to 1991. I was here during those years. I left that church, I was just a minister, and went to another church here on the West side and stayed there for 19 years. And in 2010, I was called back to the church [AT coughs] that I’m at now to be its interim pastor. June – July 2010 I was called back to be a pastor. In December of that same year, they asked me to be the full time pastor. So I’ve been at Greater Union Baptist Church from June, July 2010 until this present time.
38.01-‐38.03 AT: Could you say the name of the church again?
38.03-‐38.44 WM: Greater Union Baptist Church. My call to the ministry came in July of 1983. I sensed a call of God to preach. And so I went and told a very good friend of mine, told my pastor, and in 1985, I was licensed and ordained to become a full time pastor. A preacher, you’re ordained to be a preacher. Pastor comes on later, as a church calling, I’m sorry. So I’ve been preaching the Gospel since 1983, July of 1983.
38.45-‐38.45 EB: And you left Marillac to go…
38.49-‐41.12 WM: To go to Circle Urban Ministries to be the Youth Director there. And one of the reasons for my leaving was I wanted to… I was, dare I say, I was stymied here from having Bible Studies. That was amazing, back in those days, they said, “You can have something like that but you can’t call it Bible Studies.” And I said, “No.” So that was one factor in my leaving. The other factor was I had been praying to be a part of a full time Christian ministry. And so the latter years here at Marillac – in fact I resigned from Marillac in 1988, I resigned. I left. [EB: Oh you did? Okay.] But it was only for about a week or two. [All laugh.] What happened was my personal life was kind of screwed up and so I thought the best thing to do was to leave. And I went on an interview in Atlanta, Georgia, to be part of a ministry there. And so, Marillac did a great little big thing. I’d been here 20 years – 20 years I think at that point. And I went down, I interviewed for the job, I got the job. I came back and was, you know. They called me not long afterwards and said that the funding for that… [EB: Oh no.] So I came back to Sr. – was it Sr. Yvonne or Sr. Patricia? And I rescinded my resignation. And they took me back, so it was really a short period of time. And so I stayed here from 1988 to 1993. And I remember Sr. Yvonne saying to me, “OKAY...” When I resigned again in June of 1993… “Don’t do what you did in 19….” [All laugh.] So I said, you know, this is it. So I left here in 1993. So, from ‘83 [‘93] to this time I’ve been a pastor – a preacher. Full time pastor since 2010, July.
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41.13-‐41.26 EB: Wow. Could you tell us a little bit more about some of the conflict, about how it was to balance working at Marillac but also your call to the ministry.
41.26-‐43.47 WM: Goodness. Let me answer this way, Eleanor. One of the problems I had is that I would spend an inordinate amount of time here at Marillac. Marillac became my mistress. I’m serious. I would be here – I would start working 9 o’clock, on certain days, and I wouldn’t leave here until ten It – I just – working with these kids was just, I don’t know – just ate it up. In terms of the work as a minister, it was complementary in the sense that sometimes I could get some kids from here to go to the church. And then vice versa. So, it worked OK, in terms of bridging that gap -‐ there was a church that they could go to. But there were many churches right here in the neighborhood that many of them attended; of course some didn’t attend church at all. But I found it complementary in the sense that I could always preach the gospel to a standing audience. And then I was learning how to do it in such a way so as to keep it on the kids’ level. For instance at the church that I was at, that I’m at now, I was a youth minister there. So much of the material, et cetera, that I used, I used over here during our rap session. So it was very complementary. And so, it was easy, but Marillac was going through some funding issues at those, at that time. And some of the funding sources would not allow for proselytizing et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I wasn’t going to let that happen; I didn’t care. But I was told in no uncertain terms by the powers that be, “You can’t do that.” But I kept doing it anyway. So toward the end it became frictional. Because I was going to do it no matter what.
43:48-‐44.18 EB: So, yeah. So, you’ve – it’s been really helpful kind of seeing this whole span of your time at Marillac. And you’ve talked a lot about different changes. Are there any other big changes? Like some of the people we’ve talked to before, talk about moving from the old building to the new building, or different programs starting and ending, or administrators.
44.19-‐46.44 WM: If there was one thing I missed out on that I really wanted to be a part on was moving into this building. That was a tremendous, tremendous loss on my part. And then of course not to see a gym or a facility here for… Because if you know anything about this part of this community, basketball – gym… But one of the things that I think was exciting back in those days is that I wanted something for the girls. And so in the old gym, in the wall, there were fittings for a volleyball net. So I wanted to raise up that. And so we had some girls that could – oh they could play. And we put together a little competition between Sears YMCA at that time, Martin Luther King Boys Club… And
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so we would allow the girls to come in. The boys didn’t like that because basketball as it is now, was a big deal. And I said no. We’re going to let the girls have a chance. And it wasn’t just – these were teens and young adults. And so it was tremendous. That whole thing caught on there being a – I appreciated that. But again getting back – coming into this building, I missed it. I just – when I first came back here, how many years after, I was – I think I knew there was no gym. I might not have; I’m not sure. But I remember I, “where’s the gym?” They said there is no gym. I said oh my goodness. That to me was one of the greatest disappointments of my being here is that there was no gym. And, but fast forward ahead when I found out Al and Deanna was trying to resurrect the old pre-‐teen program, that was… That really did something to me. Then to come over and find out – because Al used to be one of my kids.
46.45 AT: What’s his name?
46.46-‐50.41 WM: Albert. [EB: Richardson.] [AT: Okay.] He used to be one of my kids. And I would have never thought – now he’s getting ready to get his bachelor’s from Northeastern. He’s going on to get his graduate work in some… That to me – and so when I saw that shirt [that Amy is wearing for the Willie Morris tournament], you know it just… [EB and AT laugh.] It blew my mind. And to think that one of the kids was instrumental in that was great. So – that disappointment – the whole gang thing was a tremendous shock because it filtered into the program. That was a disappointment. The drug culture – seeing some of my kids get caught up in drugs, some of them getting killed… One young man I remember so vividly got killed. When you think of the corner grocery store Jacks – they’ll always talk about Jackson and California, that was the place where people… And he got killed right outside that door, that young man who went away to college, and they killed him. That was, that was a tremendous blow. And then of course coming back, and the number of kids that I knew -‐ that were some of my kids who were on drugs, strung out. Some girls, of course, who were prostituting themselves. Those were tremendously disappointing times to hear and to see and to know.
To move out of that building – that’s the only building I knew [for] twenty-‐five years. So, but one of the exciting things was to see this new building. It was – wow. I came back for the – was I here for the ground breaking? Yeah, but just to see this beautiful place, but not see a gym. It just didn’t fit. Because one of the… Daycare was the great program back in those days. But the half school and evening program, which was primarily housed in the gym and in Myles Place, is what kept people who couldn’t afford to come to daycare. [AT: Right.] [EB: Right, I see.] That was the affordable; you know I could come
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pay a quarter… [EB: And you could come…] And I could come into Marillac House and be a part of the program. One of the things that I remember though, you know, kids would be kids, teenagers… We had to chain the doors so they wouldn’t go over into daycare or go over to the administrative side of the building. That was heartbreaking because there were kids who would come in, they would always… If you know anything about Marillac, it was a big place. And a lot of little places you could hide and never be found. But, so we had to lock the doors to keep them from filtering over in there. But again, I go back to some of the staff, we knew it, we knew the game. And so we did what we had to do to secure the building. And the sisters… I remember one time some guy got up onto the fourth floor, or the third floor where the sisters would live. I tell you, he got into some wild stuff, if that story – yeah. Almost got up there, I don’t think – he almost got up there.
50.42-‐50.52 EB: Yeah, it sounds like basketball not only is just such a big thing in the neighborhood, but because it was so closely tied with the gym, was where the program was…
50.52-‐52.25 WM: Eleanor that’s a good observation. Yeah, it was tied to the gym, so when we hear about the thrift shop becoming a gym. We talked about this long before -‐ when I left I would come over sometimes. We talked about the gym; we also talked about the lot. Trying to – because the outdoor basketball tournament was huge. I mean it drew from across the city, it wasn’t just [EB: It was the whole…] And again I don’t take any credit for that. I give Fred Williams that. He ran a program, I just picked it up and just kept it going. And when they sold the building and turned that outdoor court into a parking lot, it was like wow. So that was a tremendous blow to the neighborhood. Remember that Tiny Tot, Kiddieville, daycare, primarily drew people from outside of this community. People who needed to put their children in a safe environment, go to work, come back. So the children in the community, they weren’t part of daycare. So the afterschool evening program was an integral part of the life of this community. So that had to be, so. So my leaving was difficult, because I knew that. I felt a different calling, so.
52.26-‐52.44 EB: Yeah, wow. So this has been – oh really, really good stuff. Do you have any thoughts about what you think makes Marillac unique, compared to others?
53.45-‐54.23 WM: I think that they’ve kept a heart for the poor. That to me has been very, very important. Yes, Marillac needs money, they.. But they have kept that as a primary focus as well. Not just getting money but to help the poor and the needy. And to have Albert and Deanna
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dealing with kids who don’t come to daycare, who aren’t a part… That to me after all of these years, blesses my spirit. They kept a heart for the poor. And, now that’s not to say that the people who come to daycare are rich. But it is to say that there is an element in this neighborhood that need an afterschool program. They need it. Because if not, they’re going to find something to do. And that something may not be what this neighborhood needs, which of course they’re doing anyway. But Marillac – that to me, that’s the greatest legacy is that the sisters and staff… You can’t just put it on sisters, it’s the staff, who have a heart for the poor and the needy, and have maintained that over these years. That to me is one of the greatest legacies that I think Marillac will be known for, is a heart for the poor and needy.
54.24-‐54.30 EM: Do you have any wishes or hopes for Marillac in the future?
54.31-‐54.34 WM: This. [All laugh] I will definitely be around for that.
54.35-‐54.39 AT: He’s pointing to the picture of the future gym [EB: Yeah.]
54.40-‐55.54 WM: The – I just pray that God will continue to bless this place with the financial needs that it has. I have a need for – as I walk around I still see some staff that were just starting out back when I was – and to see them still here. That’s excellent. And then the things that Marillac has had to do to survive, but not compromise some things. That is important. The sisters, it’s good to see some of them here who we shared that period of time. That’s good. We’re older now, but hopefully the younger set can glean from our experience and carry forth, like again Albert and Deanna. And Maureen – people who are still here. That’s kind of important. And so I hope that they will always have the finances – I know they were going through some rough times – had to lay off staff, all of that. But they’re still standing. So the smoke clears; they’re still standing.
55.55-‐56.02 EB: That’s great. Are there any other – I feel like we want to make sure we get all of the stories that you have to tell.
56.03-‐57.57 WM: There are many stories. I wish I could call the names of staff. I’m telling you, there are some exciting people here that deserve the credit. And that’s in every department. What we’ve been able – what Marillac’s been able to accomplish is because of staff. People who came here with the heart. And again, if you know anything about social service, the money is not that great. So these had to be dedicated people. Many of them, not all of them. And they gave and they brought tremendous amount of desire. And they wanted to be here. And so as a result of that we were able to – we – I took back in
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those days – one of the things that the Lord gave me was to take pictures and videos… And we took all of these little Super 8 – I think that’s what they used to call them – took them into to a Sears and had them put on a VHS – is that what they call them? So now we’re going to take the VHS and put it on a disc. And if I can have it reproduced, I’d like to give it to… Because it’s funny to watch. All of these kids who they were. Look at the dress then, the dress now. But I would like to get it into the hands of each one of my kids that are still living. Don’t know how much that’s going to cost. But maybe some producer will say, “You give it to us; we’ll produce it.” And so, several hundred will be great to give out to the kids so they can see the old preteens from ’68 – well it’ll probably be ’60, ’70 up until 1990 something. So that … [EB: That would be great.] That’s what I’d like to do.
57.58-‐58.13 AT: I guess just – is there any story you were thinking, “I was hoping for the chance to tell this story. It needs to go on the record.” [EB laughs] And it doesn’t matter when it’s from, but this is your chance, so…
58.14-‐59.29 WM: I guess the memorial ball was one – I shared a little bit about that – that was significant, to do something outside the norm, where you present young people. That’s one. To maintain the whole basketball legacy that Marillac started way, way back, has been instrumental. But I’ve already mentioned Albert. To see this young man, who grew up in a very difficult neighborhood, and now he’s running – that blows my mind. It really does. It has nothing to do with that – it just… To see this young man, when I came and find out he was running the program – oh my goodness. I could have been knocked over with a wet noodle. Like a wet noodle. But I give all God the praise for what was accomplished back in those days. Some lean years – people making very little money. But the dedication -‐ that blows my mind.
59.30-‐59.39 AT: I have one more question I just thought of – or so far just one [laughs.] You know, how did your mom get started in working Marillac?
59.39-‐ WM: That’s a very good question. I went to the service in ’65, and she wasn’t working here. Was she? I don’t think so. Well maybe she was [but] I don’t think so. Now my mother was a dedicated Christian. Bessie Houston, Barbara Bonner, dedicated Christian women. I’m thinking that in some of the connections between their church and her church, maybe that was the connecting link that she found out about Marillac through their outside religious Christian affiliations. That’s the best I can think of because… Well maybe not only that. She met – she worked with people that were Christian women in various
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churches, and that could have been the connecting link as well, that they told her about Marillac and she came over there. Now my mother was a fantastic teacher. And I would imagine because she spoke at a lot of places that that could have been, I really, I don’t know that…
100.55-‐100.57 AT: What was your mom’s name?
1.00.57-‐ WM: Interesting. Bird, like a bird flies. [AT: Bird?] Bird Ellen. Bird Ellen Steward. That was her last name when she died. [AT: Steward?] Well it was Smith. She was married to her husband when she died. Bird Ellen Smith – that was her when she died. Bird Ellen Smith.
101.15-‐101.17 AT: And her maiden name was…?
101.17-‐101.37 WM: Bird Ellen Williams. [AT: Bird Ellen Williams.] Don’t want you to use that one though. [AT: Okay. Bird Ellen Smith.] Bird Ellen Morris because that was my daddy, who wasn’t a great guy but he was alright.
101.38-‐101.40 AT: When did he die?
101.40-‐101.49 WM: 1962. I remember that because I just saw that.
101.49-‐101.51 AT: And your mama?
101.51-‐102.15 WM: She died in 2003. No, 2006. Wow, really. She died on Father’s Day 2003.
102.16-‐102.17 AT: And you had a sister?
102.17-‐102.50 WM: She worked here. [AT: She worked here, too?] Her name was Connie. Her name’s Connie? Connie, or really Constance. [AT: Constance.] Constance Marie Adams. Step-‐brother worked here, his name was Willie Stewart. He just retired. We got him a job, yeah, and he worked here. He was in the old building and this building.
102.51-‐102.52 AT: Family business. [Laughs.]
102.52-‐ WM: Almost, almost, yes. My wife worked here.
102.57-‐102.58 AT: And do you have kids?
102.59-‐103.00 WM: I have three. All of them attended here.
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103.01-‐103.05 EB: Oh they did? Went through the programs here?
103.05-‐ WM: Went through the afterschool – [EB: The afterschool, the pre teen?] Well, the afterschool program. I think they were in daycare for a minute because – yeah. I was married. That’s interesting, ’68 was a fantastic year. I joined Marillac February 4th of ’68. I got married – Dr. King was killed April of ’68. I got married June of ’68. And we had our first child December of ’69. A year and a half after I got married. So yeah, all of our children attended here. And they were in daycare. Daycare and the afterschool.
And it was back – one story – years later there was this – this was in the ‘80s – when reconciliation became a big deal. And -‐ when I went to the church, when I left here – the three R’s of that particular ministry was reconciliation, redistribution, and relocation. They pushed that. It was an amazing thing, while I was here at Marillac, even before I went there, I always wanted to move over here. I lived in North Lawndale. Marillac of course is you know – what is this – East Garfield. And I felt back then, I should be closer to my job. I was exactly four miles from here. I used to run here; I was a great jogger. And bicycle here. So that was one. I wanted -‐ I felt in order to – so my point is that relocating to the community that I was working in was important to me. But at least I was on the West side. Believe it or not, when I first started working here I was on the South side. And I used to get some jabs about that. ‘Oh you’re on the South side.” [EB and AT laugh.] And, that was in ’68. In ’71, the Lord opened a door that we could buy a little place over here. And so that squashed that. I no longer got any jabs about being a South-‐sider.
105.35-‐105.37 AT: Thank you so much. [EB: Thank you. This was great.]
105.37 WM: No problem. Thank you.