ir500003 · 2020. 12. 12. · 83 20 everybody right everybody's proposal right 85 15...
TRANSCRIPT
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/*"% UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY' ' REGION III
641 Chfitnut BuildingPttlliddphli, Ptnniylvinli 19107
JUL2',"l988
Joel Schneider, Esq.Manta & WelgeOne Commerce Square2005 Market Street37th FloorPhiladelphia, PA 1910?
u'ohr, fason, Esq.Dechert, Price & Rhoads3400 Centre Square West1500 Kaikcit Street
PA 3.910?
O'er Frooka, ERC>.r-s Rl chare's s
085 Thlici Avf.1'ev, York, OT 30C2J-46C?
FE: IJ.S. v. Mcclet, Inc. et al., CIVIL ACTION NO. 8S-3060
Dear Counseli
Bnc']OF.6c] for your JpfoiiiaUdii IP 6 Cfoi.y of t.h? lia
c.f the Jui« 16, 1986 rvtllc r.pfljiit vil.l' JC'i-prri t(. Ik-
F;(-<jj'ri'eO
f!C:l V l J t J n i c " Clfc^tH-MpPl.H,Dc-. n' Cl rcr-t, FPC;,
/IR500003
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oTRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS - U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION AGENCY PUBLIC MEETING ON PROPOSED REMEDYFOR THE AMBLER ASBESTOS SITE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY, PA
JUNE 16, 1988
PAGE LINE DID READ SHOULD READ
2 14 Add: U.S. EPA - Region III,841 Chestnut Street,Philadelphia, PA
3 12 for the site for the AmblerAsbestos site
3 17 that we've done about3 21 DELETE: what we did
7 22, 24 Kaufman Coughlin8 12, 20 pile piles
8 19 is are9 11, 13 pile piles
9 12 it is now they are now
9 2 originally there originallyconstructed there
10 1 The other alternative to The other remedialremoving it was alternative
11 23 We construct We will construct
11 3, 12 pile piles
11 3-4 DELETE: what we've optedpotentially to construct
11 18-19 DELETE: apparently you15 18 guys from Mr. Abrey aays news from Abrue is16 1-2 than — I live near the than where I live
peat moss near the Piedmont
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oPAGE LINE DID READ SHOULD READ
16 13 damn dam16 16 ADD AT END OF LINE:
depositing17 8 currently as currently under
litigation as of17 13 DELETE: maintaining the
property
17 19-20 DELETE
19 12 that is monitoring that is a monitoringwell
20 4 we had RI/FS was paid we had the RI/FS paidfor
21 8 And sites At sitess-\•-J 21 14 tough waste toxic waste
22 21 40 years 20 years
26 24 vitrific Vitrifix27 1 it ten tons process ten tons
27 19 EPA current standing EPA's currentunderstanding is that
29 14-15 SUBSTITUTE: with anotherkind of hazardous wastemight allow contaminationof groundwater but if it'sasbestos, capping is thebest solution.
36 15 vitrific Vitrifix
36 16 what is between was between
44 22 forever. Borrowin forever, barring
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oPAGE LINE DID READ SHOULD READ
46 15 our reasibllity our Remedial46 17 1982 1980
47 3 occurres • occurs47 3 in that in time which47 6 was asbestos was mainly asbestos
47 7 not asbestos from the not all asbestos frompile the piles.
48 18 It sits there and we The best alternativejust can't, the vast
49 22 Superfund needs Superfund lead sites
50 17 JOHN BEAM JEAN THOMPSON
54 22 DELETE: all after word ^"law."
57 18 1.60 tons 1.26 million tons
58 17 that no Superfund site that at no Superfundcan just pick site can we just
pick up
58 21 ban is in effect up ban goes into effectuntil November as of November
62 21 actual account actual count
63 4-5 Reinvestigation of those Reinvestigation ofsamples has caused some of those air samples hasthe techniques used at the called some of thetime into question techniques used
at the time intoquestion.
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0PAGE LINE DID READ SHOULD READ
66 12 glass and glass furnace and
66 13-14 lent them the facility lent to them forfor a week a week
70 8,10,25 Matel Industries Batell Industries70 17-18 half hour and a half hour are more
conversation informational thana conversation
70 19 it was just a half just a half hourhour
71 24 110. 110 moisture content.
0
72 14-15 DELETE: If it burns, wouldthe vacuums have the capacityto suck it in time.
75 5 up until November after November78 11,18 yellow-like jello-like
79 6 riffraff rip-rap
79 11 we feel we feel is necessary
81 8 sending them sending them noticeletters
83 8 we will send you will send
83 20 Everybody right Everybody's proposalright
85 15 alternatives which alternatives forhazardous waste siteswhich
86 6 is all was the bestalternative of all
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PAGE LINE DID READ SHOULD READ
92 11 17th 27th
93 12 ad Inquirer101 14 remedial action remedial investigation
110 18 Sails Isales112 2 Sails Isales
112 8 Null Newall114 1 didn't think it was didn't think would
occuring happen, was occuring117 1 comes from comes from is difficult
118 18 can't right now. can't answerthat right now .C\
'NANCI SINCLAIR JTECTOR ABSEU-aiNTRONU.S. Environmental Protection U.S. Environmental ProtectionAgency Agency
BRUCE MULHOLDTTTiuDU.S. Environmental ProtectionAgency
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TRANSCRIPTOF PROCEEDINGS
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
PUBLIC MEETING
PROPOSED REMEDY FOR THE
AMBLER ASBESTOS SITE
BOROUGH OF AMBLER
MONTGOMERY COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
;, Ambler, Pemwylvuiia
^ if '- fe8',•»••••••INC.
(202)347-3700NUkmwidtCMmgi800-3364646
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cUNITED STATES OF AMERICA i
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
PUBLIC MEETING
PROPOSED REMEDY FOR THE
AMBLER ASBESTOS SITE
BOROUGH OF AMBLER
MONTGOMERY COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
AMBLER BOROUGH HALL
31 EAST BUTLER AVENU™
AMBLER, PENNSYLVANIA
THURSDAY,
JUNE 16, 1988
7:00 p.m.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.202-347-3700 800-336-6646
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0PANEL PARTICIPANTS
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NANCI SINCLAIR, Community Relations Coordinator
U.S. EPA - Region III
841 Chestnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 1.9107
HECTOR ABREU-CINTRON, Remedial Project Manager
U.S. EPA - Region III
841 Chestnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19107
BRUCE MOLHOLT, Toxicologist
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 800-336-6646
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3 P R O C E E D I N G S' ' i
. , .The Public Meeting to present a Summary of
the RI/FS and the Proposed Remedy for the Ambler Asbestos
Site convened, pursuant to notice, at 7:00 p.m., Nanci
Sinclair, presiding . . ,
MS. SINCLAIR: We might as well get started now.
My name is Nanci Sinclair, I work with EPA, Environmental
Protection Agency in the Philadelphia office, Region III.
We cover an area including Pennsylvania, Delaware, Virginia,
Maryland, West Virginia and Washington, D.C, Also here this
evening from EPA is Hector Abreu. He is the project manager,
enforcement Remedial Project Manager for the site, and also
Bruce Molholt is here. He is our EPA toxicologist and he £S
will be able to address all of your health questions or
health concerns regarding the site, and asbestos in general.
Hector will be able to cover all the more detailed questions
that we've done, the work that we have done over the last
year and a half or two years.
Let me give you a little background, Last time we
met with you was back in May, I think, or June of '86, and
what we did, we told you at that tine that we were going to
begin what is known as a remedial investigation and remedial
investigation includes a lot of sampling, At this particu-
lar site we checked for erosion along the site boundary,
along the Wissahickon Creek, Also we sampled asbestos piles
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on the site. We did some other soil sampling, some ground- :
water sampling, surface water sampling, Also we did ambient
air sampling, Went into the community and we took air read-
ings to see what kind of releases if any were coming from
the site, and also took air samples right on-site.
So we did a lot of work over the last year and a half.
All of that in detail is put together in a number of volumes
and they are available at the site repository which is the
Wissahickon Valley Library, the Ambler Branch of the library.
There's also some copies of the proposed plan. That is also
available there.
The proposed plan is a little less technical and a
little less detailed, but it's actually a summary of all of
the work that we did out there and our findings and what we
came upon as the best choices to remediate the site or clean
up the site.
After we finished our remedial investigation, we did
compile this Use of cleanup alternatives that is available
in this proposed plan and we came upon the one that we
thought was best to clean up the site,
Under the new Superfund Bill which was re-authorized
back in October of '86, we can't pick up a Superfund site,
excavate it totally and bring it co another site and con-
taminate another site with this waste,
After November of this year in fact there is a land
#65000/3.
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ban that will be In effect that says we can no longer deposit '
hazardous waste at a landfill and we always use Reserve Con-
servation Recovery Act. That's our regulatory arm of our iI
hazardous waste division, We always use something that's
regulated by them for any kind of disposal purposes,
However, in this particular case, we felt chat the
best way to contain that asbestos and keep it from becoming
airborne is through containment, So we are going to do added
measures that was done back in '84 as a removal action at
the site when we just discovered the pile and covered it with
the soil cover and then the vegetation cover and in this
case we are going to also cover it with a geotextile kind
of cloth-like fabric over the top of the pile, three more
feet of soil and then vegetate it so it can't become air-
borne and there won't be an erosion problem because we are
going to use a much stronger method and a better cap system
than is presently there.
Hector will get into more detail on that alternative
and what led up to choosing that alternative. But I also
wanted you to know is we had an ad in the Inquirer back on,
I can't remember the date it was, the 27th of May we placed
an ad in the Inquirer which announced our four alternatives,
and the one that we prefer, the one we are recommending.
Nothing becomes final until we get comments from the public,
That is the public's chance to enter into the decisionraaking
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process and we are having a 30-day comment period that
began back when the ad was in the paper. It ends June 29th
and we are going to be accepting all of your comments, i
At the bottom of this fact sheet that you all have,
you'll see on the back the last page, you'll have my name
and address and Hector's name and address where we will be
asking you to send your comments to us, Please, it says --
it did say postmarked in the advertisement, However, we
really need to receive those comments by the 29th, rather
than just postmarked by the 29th.
Also there is one little mistake I guess on this fact
sheet, You'll see under my name and phone number and under
Hector's name and phone number, my phone number is under
Hector's name and his phone number is under my name, If you
call one of these numbers, ask for the other person, I
guess that is it. We have a court reporter here this evening
because part of the process in this decisionmaking process
is to have an official record of anything that is said at
a public meeting that we hold anytime during the comment
period,
Also your written comments would be an official con-
tribution by you to the record as to what your opinion is,
It will enable us to be more responsive to what your ques-
tions are too, Our answers will not be sent back on an
individual basis, letter by letter. Rather it will be put
J (_________
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7 ;Ointo what is called a responsiveness summary, A respon-
siveness summary is response to all comments we receive from ji
any member of the public. And that's going to be attached
to the Record of Decision, And once this alternative becomesi
final or whichever alternative we decide on, then we'll put
together what is known as the Record of Decision. It's the
official record and choice of alternative for cleaning up
the site,
So we might as well get things started. Hector is
going to do a very brief presentation, a little bit about
what happened and what kind of alternative that we are
recommending. And after that we are going to open it up to
questions. What we are basically here for is for your (
questions.
Also, before I go on, I want you to know that we have
someone here from DER for the Pennsylvania Department of
Environmental Resources.
MR. ALEXANDER; Tim Alexander.
MR. REYNER; Jim Reyner (phonetic spelling).
MS. SINCLAIR; They are from the State Depart-
ment of Environmental Resources. And also Eric is here
from Congressman Kaufmann's office,
MR. WILCOX: Eric Wilcox from Congressman
Kaufmann's office.
MS. SINCLAIR; Anyway they are here also if you
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have any questions, address them to the Congressman's office :,
or the DER.
I would like you to hold your questions until after
Hector is through with his presentation.
(Mr. Abreu-Clntron gives his presentation
using a. diagram as a reference material,)
MR, ABREU-CINTRON: Good evening. As Nanci
said, during the Remedial investigation we collected various
environmental samples throughout the Ambler Pile and through-
out the borough. Basically air samples were taken, water
samples were taken in the Wissahickon Creek. Air samples
were taken on the pile and around the pile and we made vari-
ous studies on the slopes to determine if they were stable
or not, One of the problems with the piles was that we felt
the slopes looked a little precarious, so we thought let's
take some physical samples to basically try to identify if
there is any slippage occurring on the piles.
The results of air samples showed that there is.no,
as we speak, there is no current emissions coming from the
pile, There is no asbestos apparently coming from the pile.
This was proven in various scenarios, With wind blowing
from the west, samples in this side or wind blowing from the
east, samples to this side,
The slope samples showed that the slopes are stable,
They are not slipping. In fact, the composition of the
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9
1 piles have made the slopes inside form a, how do I explain
2 it, The way the piles were originally there was a huge
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amount of calcium carbonates like a toothpaste-like material,
very wet and mucky and very white when you looked at it,
Apparently it's been drying up in the slopes area and it's
forming a cement type bond chat is very, very strong, So
we found no evidence of slippage on any of the slopes.
Based on this we decided to go with the option that
basically deals with maintaining the cap,
The two areas of alternatives we looked at was either
getting rid of the pile, or doing something with the pile
as it is now, The alternatives that dealt with eliminating
the pile were excavation and basically carting it away to r"
another asbestos landfill, bring it in bags and moving it
to nearest closest asbestos approved landfill, That alter-
native proved to be infeasible in the aspect that the amount
of the material was just so great it would take various years
to do and currently there is not a landfill close by that
could accept this waste. It would fill two landfills. Cost
is also a determination because it would cost around 190
million dolars to do that,
Of course, the major one was the exposing of the
asbestos to the locals, Bringing backhoes or bulldozers
digging into the piles and exposing everybody to asbestos,
We didn't want to do that.
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10The other alternative to removing it was vitrification
process which we talked abouc. Costing for that was around
300 million, Timewise it was also quite long, Six years,
I think, And again that involved digging into the piles and
exposing the public to the asbestos threat, We felt it
didn't merit doing .that, Treating ic on-site basically
involved leaving ic as is, which is the no action alternative
basically just not doing anything, just walking away, We
couldn't do that because we found various parts of the cap
seemed to have a little bit of erosion, We just couldn't
leave that there , After a few months or years ic's poss-
ible chat ic could grow and grow and expose asbestos again.
We also found very low readings but on che top of the
pile which at the time was never fully covered with a cap
due to the growth of trees on top. It's fairly difficult
co get on top, So we decided Co cover Chose with a two feet
cap of soil. Put grass and netting and everything. Con-
struct a gabion on Wissahickon Creek. A gabion being a
type of thing you see on che highway when you drive by shear
cliffs, Ic's like a concrete wall, The toe of this pile
ends directly into Wissahickon and during heavy rains
potential flooding could scour into it and cause it to be
exposed, We construct a concrete wall to avoid it and at
the same time kind of giving a lateral force to kind of hold
up the side which is very steep. Though it isn't slipping
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"rit doesn't hurt to do chat, IAnother thins was a system of diverting runoff on the ;
pile, We decided to construct what we've opted potentially
co construct drainage ditches which is very basically con-
crete holding type system which would direct water away from
che pile and basically have rain water go towards the Wissa-
hickon or any nearby water area, Maintain Che fence. Well,
build a betcer fence actually, The current fence is not one
of the best, and I've seen various places where it is broken
into and kids — I don't know if ic's children of people up
there. I've seen various washing machines and refrigerators
within the boundaries of the pile, The security is not the
best. If anything, that is one of the biggest problems we S*
found. Many times I've come and I've seen refrigerators,
stoves, washing machines, bicycle tracks, beer bottles. It's
a temptation. It's a nice hill, They want to go up and
they think it's nice, But it is a problem.
There is also the problem of people apparently you
have come in and pulled a sampling of trees and bushes,
Come in and yanked them out. The problem with that, of
course, is that on the roots you might have asbestos cling-
ing to that and people don't realize that when you pull them
and take them home ,i and there might be a problem, Basically
it's Just a security problem. So we build a much more secure
fence with only one or two points of entry, making it very
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difficult co get in. Better signs, Larger signs calking
about the hazards that exist.
The seeding ponds which are in becween che cwo piles,
chere is a filter system that *s used, They found very a
very small amount of asbestos in the cement in the bottom.
It is currently filled with water. We would drain that, fil-
ter che water for any asbestos, put it back in, and cap this,
That would be closed and covered. Any sore of maintenance
problem, any grass that might be filled in. Re-grass and
reseed,
I think chac's ic.
MS, SINCLAIR; We are going Co open it up to
questions, but I have one request, As I mentioned earlier,
we have a court reporter here, and it will go much easier
for her to hear your question if you don't mind, standing
up and speaking loudly and just stating if you are a resi-
dent, a local official, or a consultant, you know, Just
so she knows exactly who is asking the questions,
We are open now to public questions and comments,
FRANK ROMANO: I'm a resident and I've been talk-
ing about this asbestos pile for at least 15 years. And I
believe that unless you do something about the shape of
that pile which I didn't hear yet tonight, you are still
leaving an ugly eyesore in this community when it is possible
to do it in an option which you have not even discussed.
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13 OThac :•', chac you should level that pile out, That sieans ic
isn't aken away, buc you are doing something with the pile, '
You level that pile out and bring it way down, say it might
be 20 feet. I don't know, What is che elevation right now?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON! Over 50 feet.
MR. RQMANO: Well you could bring it down to 15
or 20, It wouldn't be such an eyesore. And that could be
done very easily by where you have your fence cowards the
stream, instead of a fence putting a concrete wall down
along there, You are talking about five million. If you
put a concrete wall down that side, you can take and move
it over and I know your objection is that asbestos fibers,
But about ten years ago there was a contest or something,
to send ideas in as to how you would do that, And I pre-
sented that idea and also included in that idea that there
would be a relatively simple means of ensuring chac there
wouldn't be asbestos going into the air,
Now I was born and raised in this community, and also
I'm a chemist and I worked for an asbestos company for a
couple of years, So I know some of the characteristics of
asbestos and I represented that it would be very easy to get
a type of solution. I told them whac the solution was which
you would spray ver the pile where you were working and
that would penetrate and also encapsulate the asbestos
fibers and make them pretty resistant in the future to any
———— • ———___——— —————— flPPiAA/XLji ____—————
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decomposition,
Now chen after you've spread chac ouc and I also
stated that ic should have three or four feet of earth over
the top oc that. And then you could have a park, You could
have a park, You could have a swimming pool, You could do
all these things, .To do what the options are here chac
I've heard is noc really a solution that this town should
have because in che wintertime you could still come up
Butler Avenue and see chac ugly situation. And I think the
community should get together with an idea chac really sort
of levels that pile and make a park out of ic instead of
putting a fence around it and signs and all this kind of
stuff.
That's all I have to say right now,
MR. MOLHOLT: Frank, I calked Co you on the phone
many, many cimes. I want co comment in terms of the health
aspect of what you mentioned about turning mountains into
molehills. It seems to me chat from the perspective of
environmental protection, that you've addressed something
I think the agency not only hasn't looked at, but isn't
impowered by Congress to look at and that is environmental
beauty, You might want to go two directions, You might
1 it co level out the 50 foot mountain or build it up into
a thousand foot mountain and put on lifts and so on, It's
one person's beautiful mountain and another person's eyesore
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in some cases, We don't have che power to, from che stand
poinc of beautifying Ambler, to spend more dollars to lower
the height of that mountain, And your proposal for wetcing
down asbestos during that huge operation still wouldn't be
as proceccive co che public as putting che kind of necs and
kind of vegecacion over the existing mountains as proposed
in alcernacive number four of che feasibility scudy, So I
Chink it's nice if we can do it. But we just don't have the
power to move around large pieces of land like that in order
to satisfy a beautifIcacion cype process rather chan a pub-
lic health or environmental type process,
MR. ROMANO; I certainly included public health
in this thing and beaucificacion is noC really, you know,
- 0
014 "I didn't say anything about planting flowers and oriental
shrubs or anything like that. But just to lower it so you
don't see that eyesore and we see it every day because we
live here, And
MR. MOLHOLTiThe good guys from, Mr. Abreu says
that the white mountains of Ambler are very much like the
White Cliffs of Dover. This is calcium. This is chalk.
MR. ROMANO: I know what it is.
MR. MOLHOLT: Right. It's 90 percent chalk, so in
a sense if it were 100 percent asbestos then maybe there
would be a bill of lading to stamp on it, We are really
talking about something that frankly, doesn't have to be
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when vegetated over, any more of an eyesore than -- I live •
near Che peac MOSS , . .
Thac's more than a 100 feet high and we don't consider
chac ugly.
MR, ROMANO! I am saying you do cover Ic and if
ic is cen percent, as I know ic happens to be in there, chac
is all che nore reason why you can grade ic over without too
much danger. And then, you know you put the situation over
there.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: The RI proved that the way
the piles exist, che way they were constructed, apparently
initially slag and cinders were used as a berm, a little
damn Co hold in. This was the Keasbey-Mattison, a long time
ago. They would put Inside of this walled in ...
magnesium waste and calcium chalk. As it grew up they keep
extending the berm, Now ic got to a point they started
asbestos and it started to go on cop of che cinders, Calcium
carbonate and then you start seeing asbestos, More and more
asbestos is inside that, So there are parts in che pile chac
are up to 50 percent asbestos, The ten percent is mostly
in the beginning part and some of the outside. That is ten
percent, But inside there is close to 50 percent asbestos,
MR. ROMANO: This asbestos is normal and natural
to the ground. You know, it was mined. You put it down
under three or four feet of earth and it's back Co its
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natural scate sort of, and when you plant ic and you are "
going to have no movement of ground see. So I chink ic'si
a worthwhile option. j
ANTHONY DECEMBRINO: My name is Tony Decembrino ,
and I am a member of counsel, What is the plan to maintain ;i
Che propercy once che plan is put in effect. How would you
cut the grass and maintain the weeds however?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: This case it's currently as
of now, EPA would be doing the work out there probably.
We still haven'c goc —
(Inaudible conversaclon,)
As ic stands now EPA would be the agency chac would
be doing che work out chere, maintaining che property. /">
Maintenance of the propercy is under Che Job of DER, There
is a five year due process,
A VOICE: That is when the state enters into
a state Superfund contract with the Environmental Protection
Agency which we have not done,
MR, ABREU-CINTRON: This can be done and the
weeds can grow,
MR, MOLHOLT: Maybe Hector can explain the status
of the site.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: We are in the middle of that
now, Again because , . , It's feasible if they decide co
get involved. If they would pay for it, they would do it
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and they would be responsible for che maintenance,
But if 1C turns out EPA would do ic, we have Co calk '
to DER to gee some sore of agreement,
JEAN THOMPSON: I'm a residenc of Locusc Screet.
I spoke to you lasc ,,ear about this cutting the grass, It
has been cut once this year. I live right across che street
from chat site, which you know, We are plagued with bugs
all lasc year. My house especially on the outside was
covered, I spoke to Mr. Sigmore (phonetic spelling) about
it, That grass has been half way cut once this year, and
we have had a loc of rain, Last year, I don'c think it was
only cut about twice,
You speak of children going on that ground. I don't
know why you can't open that playground. The children go
up on top of the mountain anyway. They play up there.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: They shouldn't.
MRS, THOMPSON: They gee through the fence on
Locust Street alley, I have called the police and they come
down and as soon as they leave, they go right back up.
Those kids from out of Souch Ambler and go up there. We have
a lot of problems but you can't call the police for' every-
thing.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: We do plan to put a better
fence for security, It's true you can'c avoid a child doing
it, They shouldn't do it, of course, but it's very difficult
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Co control. Hopefully, with che new eight foot fence
barbed wire --
MRS. THOMPSON: They don't play on che site
wnere the playground is. Ic's back of the alleyway that
they get through. They even go hunting up there,
MR, ABREU-CINTRON: The whole side is going to
be totally surrounded,
MRS. THOMPSON: What is this, is this a new
pump or something you put on Locust Street at the bottom of
the mountain, It's yellow, It looks like a well of some
type of pump,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; A tube that is monitoring,
That is to take groundwater samples. C
MS. SINCLAIR; Groundwater samples?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; Not groundwater, I'm sorry.
To take borings, would actually dig In and you take a core
of dirt.
MRS. THOMPSON; It's not an air sampler?MR. ABREU-CINTRON; No, no. That waa done on
the site.MICHAEL HAYGN: I'D Michael Hayen, the Mayor.
First of all, what ia the coat going to be in the
borough now or in the future on this? Also Tony asked you
a qui scion who ia going to maintain it and Nicolet is in the
raidd) s of bankruptcy. Now who will take it over, and who
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will maintain it, and who is going to take this cost over?
Is the state taking this all over?
MS. SINCLAIR: Under Superfund with Che consent
agreement we entered into, we had RI/FS was paid for by the
responsible party, In this case Superfund paid for it,
Nicolet was bankrupt throughout the project as you know. We
still have one more responsible party that we are going to
be developing another consent decree with for them Co look
into che design for the consent agreement for them to look
into doing che design for the cleanup. So if they agree to
this and if our negotiations are successful with then,
a notice letter will be going out to them within the next
week or two. If they agree to that, then they will pay for
the next stage of the project, which is the design, And
then after that, we'll negotiate with them to see whether
or not they will cake on the costof this cleanup. But if
that doesn't come through, if our negotiations fail with
the other responsible party, then under the Superfund Law,
Superfund will pay. We'll get the funds from Superfund.
there will be no cost incurred by the borough.
MR. HAYEN: la that only as long as Superfund
is existing?
MS. SINCLAIR; The Superfund will stay in exis-
tence. It waa reauthorized — first of all, it was initially
passed, the Bill, in 1980. And up until 1986, we still had
BR5&CGE9
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money from Superfund .and we were using Superfund funds,
21O
I'm sorry about that, that didn't sound right, Any-
way, it was reauthorized in 1986, It was a much stronger
bill, It had more teeth in it, We had more action on the
enforcement end of the project, Most of our sites now,
especially in Region'111 are enforcement sites, And we are
getting a lot of response from so-called potentially respon-
sible parties, And sites in general, we consider any respon-
sible party a past or present owner of a site. Anyone who
generated waste that was found at the site and any haulers
of waste to a site. That bill will be up for reauthoriza-
tion in 1991. I doubt very much if there is a Congreaanan
in this country or Senator who will refuse to approve extend
ing the Superfund Bill. We have a lot of tough waste sites
across the country. Right now there is nine hundred some-
thing on the national priority list. Ambler Asbestos site
is also on that list, That is a list of top priorities
across the country that need this Superfund money for clean-
up or investigation.
Right now, the bill is at 8,5 billion dollars for the
whole country. The next reauthorization might increaae that
to a higher amount. Either way we will always have a Super-
fund Bill and as each tine that it gets reauthorized, we
are learning more fron paat experiences so therefore, it
will be a much stronger bill, Just as this one was. Our
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original bill was 1,6 billion dollars, and ic was the first
time chat anyone was involved with such a large scale of
cleanup of these large abandoned landfills and waste sites.
So now this bill that was reauthorized in '86 was a
lot stronger and we hope from any kind of experience, all
the experiences that we have across the country of cleaning
up these sites and studying them, Congress will make it an
even tougher bill or stronger bill, especially enforcement-
wise,
So never is any cost that is expended through EPA to
clean up hazardous waste, costs are never picked up by the
local officials or local borough or township. Even the bill
itself is a tax on the Petro Chemical Company and Broad Base
Manufacturing. So it's actually the businesses that we con-
sider potential responsible parties who originally contributed
to the Superfund Bill each year, It's their tax and the none
is put into a trust fund.
MR. DECEMBRINO; It's about as likely for that
tab as for the maintenance of 309. There was supposed to be
a throe year carry-over. Supposed to be 40 years?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; It's 40 years, yeah.
Twenty years.
MR. DECEMBRINO: What waa the total price on
that?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Two hundred seventy million
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dollars,
MR. MOLHOLT: ' That ia 20 years?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Twenty years.
MR. STEVEN RESNICK: Steve Resnick from Borough
Council. I Just have one question. I have been invovled
with the firemen ia the town. Before we had just the moun-
tains up there and no grass or anything up there. Now we
have a problem. Potential problem that we could have a
fire up on those mountains with the growth. What hazard is
it to a man, the manpower going up on those mountains? We
are worried about stirring up the dust and everything if we
are going to move anything, if we have to fight a fire up
there, we will be tramping in it. What is the hazard to the (
manpower fighting these fires?
MR. MOLHOLT: There is no contact threat from
asbestos, You have to inhale it. As you indicated it would
only be hazardous if you did stir it up. If the cap is going
to be put on as according to this plan, there would be no
exposed asbestos. Aabeatoa, if there were shrubbery or
bruah burning would still be — the asbestos would all be
under two feet of soil. So you would not have the ability
to stir that up during any kind of a fire. '
Aa Mr. Romano correctly identified, water is a good
way to abate any asbeatos problem even if there is one. So
I think you are in pretty good hands and no prohibition to
u
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24to going out to those slopes to put out any potential fire.
A VOICE: There is a comment in here that indi-
cates —
(Conversation not reportable,
My question is in reference to alternative three,
Che vitrification solution and there's a comment in your
report that indicates that vitrification for this sice ia
not possible. And I'm not sure, I would like for you to
explain why it is not possible.
MR. ABREU-CITRON; When we look at alternatives,
we look at different factors, basically coat is a factor,
technicalities involved in doing it. la it technically
possible to even do it, Public health and welfare more or
less. Will the options cause a public health hazard, what-
ever, and regulations. Is it a process that is under regu-
lations or approved by the state. Vitrification was looked
at first costwise. The cost was just pretty high, 300 milllo
dollars, 290 more or less.
Technically it was considered not a feasible idea
because of Just the length of tine it would take, 20 years.
And' the need to bring in the necesaary equipment to do the
procesa, we would need to tap into some sort of electric
supply, The City of Ambler does not have sufficient electri-
city necesaary to do this process. It's a huge anount of
electric used, two electrodes create an arcn. There is two
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cypes sticking, two electrodes in and creating electric
current and melting it underground, The other one is digging
ic up and burning ic into glass,
Healthwise it was a threat just digging into the
piles, You have to use some sort of system to contain this
and we are talking '20 years of containment. We just felt
it wasn't fair to the local residents on Locust Street or
anywhere nearby to have them subjected co this excavation
for the next 20 years.
Ic could be controlled maybe. But what if ic rains.
Most of che substance in there is as we say, calcium caron-
nate in che state it is in now, very liquid. Kind of like
a chocolate covered cherry, Break off the chocolate and it
will all ooze out. You have quite a lot to handle. Not only
that, but asbestos. It's just, healthwiae, we didn't think
it was correct,
Regulatorywiae, ic's been a semi new alternative uaed
in schools and other agencies. A huge amounc of subacance
makes it not very feasible.
A VOICE: The vitrification process, waa this
coat baaed on the electrodes?
MR. ABREU-CITRON: Both of them', We looked at
both.A VOICE; In that price range?
MR. ABREU-CITRON: More or less. Yes, more or
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26less. The only one, the electrode one needed more electri-
city, whereas the other one you have to build some sort of
facility which means you have to build a plant and smokestackt
and a staff of people there, and also a certain amount of
glass, It's 80 percent asbestos, 20 percent raw glass. So
you have to get glass from somewhere,
MR. HAYEN: That would almost take care of two
problems. First we had the incinerator and we also have
people needing to get rid of glass. It would take care of
two problems at one time. Not a bad Idea.
MR. MOLHOLT: Lee me comment on chac. If you
were Co go down with vitrification process and cry, for
instance, co curn sand Into glass, it's a kind of glassifi-
cation like making glass, You have to have as Hector men-
tioned, 80 percent asbestos. And you don't have 80 percent
asbestos in that mountain. The only feasible way would be
if there was much more asbestos chare than is present, With
leaa than ten percent aabestoa, you cannot turn that mountain
into glass without adding more glass than Anbler can supply,
Also nore electricity than you can get from the power plant.
yeara?MR. HAYEN: Where did the number come up, 20
MR. ABREU-CITRON: Baaed on the 1.26 million
cubic yarda based on the number given by che vitrific people.
You can read the report. I think they were aaylng they could
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it ten tons in a day, Ten hour shifts, working seven days Cj>
a week, Non-stop, And you do the mathematics 1.26 million
cubic yards, you come out with 20 years.
MR. ROMANO: I would like to add that then the
pile of the glass plus the asbestos would be bigger than
the pile you already have.
MR. MOLHOLT: Exactly. A glass mountain.
MR. ROMANO; Yes. And you have junk glass to
put in roads where stone is cheaper and easier or better.
So the vitrific process as I complained about is the stupid-
eat idea I ever heard of.
STEPHEN SAGE: Steve Sage, Borough Council.
13 "« W»B uwb juab « i.wl.,1. nw Ufttj a ukAAAl*/ buwpall/ U» /**N
well, specifically we're a water company, You've addressed
We are not just a town. We are a utility conpany as
14
16 the surface water system with the concrete wall. Can you
tell me how the cap will keep asbestos fibers from migrating
into the --
Have you taken a baseline check?
MR. ABREU-CITRON: EPA current standing, aabeatos
does not travel in groundwater. EPA regulations ia not the
correct word. EPA thought process of aabeatos and ground-
water ia that asbestos does not migrate in groundwater
basically because of the size of the particles. What happens
ia the particles move and hit againat a grain of sand,
Another one hits on that one and in fact, it creates ita own
/V M500036
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filter, More and more asbescos fibers pile up and create
a filter. Basically clean on this side. Nothing comes out.
It does not migrate at all in the groundwater,
MR. MOLHOLT: It has been measured In asbestos
indications.
MR. ABREU-CITRON: yea.
MR, SAGE: So our water system is not ac peril
using the cap system?
MR. ABREU-CITRON: No, no.
JOSEPH BRESNAN: I am assiscanc solicitor for
the Borough. The fact sheet indicaCes chac you are talking
about four alternatives. Really it's three since no action
is really no alternative. You wouldn't have gotten involved
in the first place, Are these the only alternatives? Are
there other alternatives that have been considered at other
sites that were rejected in this particular instance, or
are you saying that the alternatives that are listed in here
are the only 'ones that ever existed for getting rid of a site
like this?
MR. ABREU-CITRON: I say this is the noat exten-
sive one that has been done on a aabeatos site. Aa of today
this is poaaibly the only alc'ernaclve we could figure.
We have looked ac -- chere is another sice in New Hampshire.
There ia one in Illinois I chink, and I've been in conver-
sation with their people and we have interchanged information
Ali500037
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and all that and those other two sites have come up with the
same options we have here, basically capping it and keeping
it there, Vitrification was something that came up recently.
They looked at it.
MR. BRESNAN: The thrust of what you seem to be
saying abouc vitrification is that it's so large that how
many years it would take to get rid of it, And with option
numer one, actually number two, it's so large that there is
nowhere to put it. So is it safe to say your position is
that anytime you have a mountain that is chat size, the only
thing you can do is cover it up as it sits?
MR. ABREU-CITRON: Yas.
MR. MOLHOLT: It might be that other nountains
that have some kind of hazardous waste that might get into
the groundwater. If it's aabeatos, that's the best solution,
MR. ABREU-CITRON: If there was another sub-
stance , we would have to remove it.
MR. BRESNAN: One other question. On Page Two
ic indicates that you first became involved when there was
a complaint brought by a resident of Ambler about the possi-
bility of che ambient travel of the asbestos. Do you have
any docunented cases of people from that neighborhood or any-
where in Ambler as we sit here, that Indicate that they have
some physical impairments or disability chat is directly
related to the asbestos?
O
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MS. SINCLAIR: We don't have any health reports,
Under Superfund the EPA as much as we can take care of haz-
ardous waste problems to keep ic from affecting che residents,
one thing that che bill doesn't allow for is such areas of
medical monitoring, That Is done by the State Health Depart-
ment. And no, we never ask them for health records. But
we do ask them for concerns that they might have. Some
people might feel that a certain kind of condition could
have been aggravated or contributed by the site.
MR. BRESNAN; Well, that Is my question.
MS. SINCLAIR: We have community relations plan
on the site and that is also in the repository and that ia
the only place where we actually — Che only purpose of Chat
plan is toreport; any concerns that citizens might have,
and any kind of health effects that they believe they per-
ceive could be from the site were listed in that community
relations plan. That is available at the Wissahickon Public
Library.
MR. MOLHOLT: If you look at the monitoring there
ia no impact to the Ambler community, On the other hand,
there are two factors that do represent a threat. One ia
that many of the residents wdrk in Che plants and the occu-
pational exposure is certainly nothing — excuse the pun —
nothing to sneeze at.
Second is that many reaidenta that work at the plant
Kilned in this t<«ne Is not at readable.. , legible. <u tkti$, it it due to substandard color or condition ot the original page.
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•Agot the asbestos and were able to put the asbestos in their
attics and crawl spaces for free. There are still homes
that exist in that state and they do represent a threat to
chJ homeowners and to the community.
JOHN DURKIN: I am a resident.. I am not sure
I understand the numbers, If the mountains are only ten
percent asbestos, why is there such a restriction as far as
saying it has to go, If you were to remove it, it couldn't
go to toxic waste sites. It would fill up those two sites,
If it's 90 percent chalk, then I am not sure I understand
that.
MR. MOLHOLT: Ic's hard to dig out ten percent
and leave 90 percent, That is part of the answer. r
MR. DURKIN: So they look at it as a whole?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON : Yes. We can't leave part
of it there. We have to take the whole of it.
GEORGE SAURMAN: State Representative. I have
a number of questions also. I am a resident of Anbler and
was on Council and Mayor for several years.
We dealt with this problem in many ways and there waa
a state health study nade rather extensive study made and
at that time the consequences were the verdict waa there ia
no health hazard unless the surface is disturbed, and then
we had a aituation not too long ago where free asbestos waa
discovered and yet the anblent air aanplea still indicated
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there was nothing in the air.
So, is that basically where we were?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: What was Che question?
MR. SAURMAN: What I am concerned about is the
past and the present health of the residents in and around
these waste piles and the concern that spending millions of
dollars on this site will inculcate into che minds of people
not only here, but in other areas, because we had this where
residents or people calling from California that want to move
in and worked in Fore Washington have said I don't wane Co
be in Anbler because of the asbestos.
Now, and I might just add this as a footnote and say
that I am really happy that you're going to put an eight
foot fence with barbed wire there and big signs on it indi-
cating that there is a hazard right in the middle of our
comnunity. Now that is going to do . tremendously for our
property values and I thank you for that because when you
have made theae other conaiderationa, I'm sure you haven't
thought about property values in our community or the con-
cern! of our people.
Now, when we first had this problem I suggested to the
Department of Environmental Resources and EPA and the Depart-
ment of Health naybe we ought to do some cheat x-rays and
find out if theae people have had any problems. They aaid
no, that would Just create sone false security naybe. Maybe
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they will have it. It takes 20 years for asbestos to
develop so we can't do that.
What I am concerned about now is that I hear a study
and I'm sorry that Mr. Romano doesn't like vitrification,
but it has been successfully used in the Navy Yard in Scotlan
to remove asbestos, .
What I am further concerned about is I just heard a
report that 40 percent of all the public buildings in
Philadelphia have asbestos in them, What I am further con-
cerned about is moat of our schools throughout Pennsylvania
and che nation have asbestos in them.
Now we can't go around and cover up asbestos all over
the country. We can't cover the buildings. We've got to
find some kind of a solution.
Now there is a solution in terns of vitrification.
We are not going to create piles of glass. There are other
uses for that material. It can be used as landfill and
clean landfill without any toxic problems whatsoever, and
therefore, it can be moved if that's all that ever happened
to it, But there can be other uses, and a little research
I'n sure would develop such uaea.
I've seen it for instance in little colorful squares
and I think that that could be used In a building naterial
type thing, At the very least, if just che scones chat are
made or the particles that are nade were1 used for landfill,
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they could be sold and while they would be competing with
gravel would probably bring about nine million dollars as
I understand it from one of the processors.
The plant that would be established in Ambler, the
figures that I've heard were not 270 million, but somewhere
between 100 and 200' million perhaps to build. That's to
build the plant and to build a plant that could be built in
compartments so chat when you have and I understand there
is an asbestos pile in Plymouth Township, not too far from
here. And we're not going to talk about that. That is
another major problem that would develop. And there ia also
a waste pile not far from the pile that we are treating
which isn't being considered.
But we have an asbestos problem and it disturbs me
because right now we are landfilling asbestos with no noti-
fication that that's chere so we're Just putting a time bomb
down for someone else to dig up later on.
Why don't you seriously look at getting rid of this
stuff and making it into something that is safe. You've
talked about coat and listening to the technicalitiea, the
length of time, again you say that thesn are the figures
that you've had. We've met with the people' in vitrifix.
They talked about the volume. There were nowhere near 20
years, Nowhere, To accomplish this purpose of getting rid
of these things. So there seems to be some conflict between
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Che numbers in terms of what it costs, between the length
of time and we are calking about a technology that can be
transfered from this sice to other sites, I gueas the major
question that I have is, ia it a problem for the United
States Government to cake care of asbestos in Ambler,
Pennsylvania, or Is 'EPA going Co look at asbestos throughout
Che nation. And if you're going to look at asbestos through-
out the nation, then why aren't the parts of this plant that
are being talked about or could be talked about, why aren't
they movable to other sices and cherefore, the cost of it
prorated over several sites rather than juat against this
one thing, Why can't we then also consider what the value
of that land will be once we've cleared it of asbestos and
property values in Ambler and the health and the welfare
which you've also hold here as one of the considerations,
I consider to be morale. I consider that health and welfare
is —
MS. SINCLAIR: Hector is going to answer your
question.
MR. SAURMAN: Let me direct the queation nore
specifically then to two things, I Juat saw Dr. Roberts come
In so it will be interesting'of vitrifix, it will be interest
ing now co see why Che conflict between the cost at 270 some
million dollars that is Hated here, and some lesser costs
how that figure waa arrived at, one queation and naybe I'll
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stop with that one for che moment,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: We knew about vitrifix. Our
contractor contacted vitrifix. In fact, I went out there my-
setlf and the doctor can attest to that, I went out to West
Virginia where there is a pilot study, We saw the process.
He had a small demonstration there. I was there and my con-
tractor or his reporter came with me. We saw the process
and everything. We were told, we told them later on, we
need estimate numbers and information so we can make a good
esclmate of how much chis process is going to cost. They
looked into it. They called, I'm sorry, I don't know your
last name, Robert, I'm sorry, Dr. Roberts. And they got
the necessary information cost breakdowns, estinated tonnage
per day. Baaed on the pure mathematics, we came up with a
number, how many tons per day we were told by the vitrific
people chey could handle what is between five to ten. That
is the number they gave us, It was basically calculating
the amount of volume we have there. Everything. Not just
the asbestos, but everything, calcium carbonate, everything.
That volune multiplying it by the, how much tona that ia,
how many tona per day you can handle and arrived at the
amount of days it would cake'and that ia how we came up with
20 years, It waa all infornation given to us that we
looked into it. In terms of the 20 years, it's Just simple
mathematics. How many tons it handles per day and how many
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tons we have there. So we have the amount of days,
In terms of the request in Che health threat to our
present and pasc, as I've said in my calk, presently there
is no health problem, There is no evidence of emissions at
all. There is nothing coming from the pile in terms of
asbestos, It is covered over,
MR. MOLHOLT; That information should be publicly
available in terms of any future employer or residents that
would like to move into the area. That is something that
the agency can help you with. As Hector ia implying, as I
think you say indirectly when you were talking, if people
had been exposed to asbestos in the past, that health threat
can exist for another 20, 30 or 40 years to the people who
have been exposed in the past. We are trying to insure
by remedial action no future asbestos exposure will occur
fron that pile, That is the best we can do.
MR, ROBERTS: You stated five to ten tons per
day. That is not the case, You can have a furnace melter
of any size you like, When I was involved in this project
sotae two years ago, I was recommending a time period of what-
ever waa desired by the community. Say three to five years,
in which case you would have an installation capable of
dealing with material at several hundred tona per day,
MR. MOLHOLT: How much would that coat? How
much would several hundred ton a day cost?
CD
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MR. ROBERTS: You didn't ask for that informa-
tion.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Our contractor said we did.
MR, ROBERTS: Someone spoke co my deputy and the
total conversation was half an hour on the telephone. During
that time che main concern chat the gentleman had, under-
standably, was the ability and problems of moving the
material from the heap to the process, which I have to agree
is a technical problem that needed to be tackled. There was
no discussion of the range of sizes of the machines which
are available because that would have been made very clear
that it's anything from two tons per day to 300 tons per day
in a single unit. And you can have mulci units. Also
there waa no discussion as to whether the glasa which is
produced can be made into a viable product which would miti-
gate the expense quite considerably,
MR. MOLHOLT: Dr. Roberts, wouldn't you agree cha
ic is a large investment , in 'equipment used to melt asbestos
fibers and glass?
MR. ROBERTS: Yes. '
MR. MOLHOLT: Wouldn't you agree that if you
expand that equipment by ten fold, you increase at least the
investment up-front costs from 100 to 200 million to a bil-
lion to two billion?
MR. ROBERTS: No. There has never been any
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suggestion from us that Che up-front cost was going to be
a hundred million dollars.
MR. MOLHOLT: What would you estimate the up-
front costs would be for a ten to 15 con per day facility?
MR. ROBERTS: Ten to 15 ton per day you say?
The up-front costs. of installing the unit would be of the
order of
ton per
three million dollars.
MR. MOLHOLT; How much would it cost for 100
day facility?
MR. ROBERTS: I haven't got that figure, but
taking it by extrapolation of figures that I do know, I would
say around ten to 15 million dollars.
to make
asbestos
ment in
in other
in other
reduced
cost.
MR. SAURMAN: And che point that I waa trying
before is chat the question is, are you through withwhen you leave Ambler because this plant, che invesc-
this plant which is an investment can then be uaed
sitea and there are other sites, and by using it
sites, che cost pro-rated to Ambler ought to be
rather than Anbler, this site, absorbing all of that
MR. MOLHOLT: I think Che gentlenan ia proposing
this becone an aabeatos vitrification capital of the UnitedStates.
plan.
And I an not sure the residents will endorse that
MR. SAURMAN: I think you probably missed what
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I said, but I appreciate your insinuation which obviously
would cause people to become concerned if we were going co
make this che asbescos capital of the world for treatment,
I said that che plant could be taken apart and moved to
other sices. I agree chac it's not a good idea Co try and
move this asbestos, all over the country, and in fact, have
legislation dealing with that, But I think, and It has to
be carefully controlled because it is ambient as far aa the
air is concerned, and therefore, it has to be covered. And
we can't allow ic to get off into the air. But if you take
the plant and build it so that that plant can then be taken
down again and moved into another place, then the cost of
it is simply moving it, not building it. The furnaces are
there. That equipment can be transferred. And therefore,
chac cose can be pro-raced. And because you are able Co sell
the finished product and it's not going Co put another glass
mountain here of several hundred tons or whatever, several
more Jjres, It will remove and free that land for use which
ultimately this little eight, ten or square mile of Ambler
property could sure use that as a tax base. Land that's
productive rather than land at the present tine and particu-
larly land that would have ah eight foot fence with barbed
wire and warning signs on that we got a hazard right in our
midst.
MR. ROMANO: May I say sonething on that? Well,
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41 QMr, Saurman, Che vitrification process again from the chemi-
cal standpoint is merely a matter of heating the asbestos
until you no longer have the hazardous property; isn't chat
ri'ghc, doccor?
MR. ROBERTS: Ic's a simplification of 1C.
MR. ROMANO: But ic is chac in total you make
1C so that it is no longer —
MR. ROBERTS: It ceases to be a dangerous ma-
terial.
MR. ROMANO: That fiber that ia a hazard. Well,
why not stop there? In other words, the whole procesa
doesn't seem to make sense because it has lost its hazardous
property once you've heated it. Why then mix it with broken C
glass and forn sone other product when you've gotten rid of
the hazard that was the principal reason for the whole oper-
ation?
MR. ROBERTS: The reason for that is If you have
a simple Incineration procesa, there is no way you can guar-
antee the conpletion of the proceaa. I've looked at this
very carefully, which is why we finished up with ch« glass-making process. So that we nake the procesa safe,
MR. ROMANO: Did you say there is no way that
you can guarantee that all the fibers have been disintegrated
MR. ROBERTS: Correct. I said your suggestion
of simple incineration process —
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MR. ROMANO: Not simple. You heat it to what
you say 1400 degrees?
MR. ROBERTS: Seventeen hundred degrees Centi-
grade, Let me reply to your question, sir, If you simply
heat the material to 1700 degrees Fahrenheit you will indeed
destroy asbestos. However, there is no way that you can
guarantee that process will be complete, There is no
guarantee that that process wili so to completion. It is
inherently a dangerous process if you use incineration for
it. I have gone into this in great detail. What I finished
up with is going to the glass-making process to insure that
the product under all circumstances can never contain any
asbestos, It is the only way you can do it, Fron a —
MR, ROMANO: From a chenical standpoint, I am
a chemist and I've worked with asbestos as a chemist, and
you know you keep saying that the incineration procesa does
not do the job. In effect you say that and you are expect-
ing that some more is disintegrated as you make glass.
MR. ROBERTS: No, I am not expecting that. The
aituation in any process will go wrong, People will make
mistakes. A controller will fail. Under those circum-
stances, unbeknownst to the operator aabescbs will go through
the process and will appear in the product. That ia the
same with any industrial process. Unless as I have been able
to achieve the process is intrinsically safe. It ia
u
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43 (•
absolutely physically impossible for any material to pass
through that process without having been heated to more than
2000 degrees Fahrenheit, thus insuring that the product is
always under all circumstances free from asbestos. That is
why we go to glassmaking, I started by looking at inciner-
ation aa you suggested because it's the most direct way,
Unfortunately, it's a dangerous method.
MR. ROMANO: I didn't use the term incineration.
I said just get it up to the temperature that destroys,
MR. ROBERTS: Your definition.
MR. ROMANO: Clearly then any other part of that
procesa could go off like you said, and have asbestos fiber
going all over the town because other things didn't work? V.
MR. ROBERTS: No.
HOPE SWISHER: I am a resident of Ambler. I'm
concerned about the health factors. The gentleman in the
blue shirt, you say there is no health hazard coning out of
the piles now, But you know volcanoes stay silent for a cer-
tain period and they do erupt occasionally. I Chink if we
have a chance Co get rid of these piles I would like to see
it done. I think the process which you are recommending ia
cosnetlc, It's putting a bandaid on a carbuncle. That
asbestos is always going to be in there. I trust the opinion
of che gentleman of Che scientific coranmity chat has spoken,
and I do not fully understand the technicalities of it. Aa
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a resident I would like Co see the piles go, When I first
heard of vitrification, I thought it was a boon for Ambler
and I would really like to see it, che piles removed if at
all possible,
MR. MOLHOLT: I would like Co address che latter
part of your comment first, and then go back Co che health
problems. I don't think we are conduccing a scientific de-
bace abouc the virtues or lack thereof of vitrification.
I think we have some vested interest present. We also have
a bit of indecision as co some of the problems that would
be faced physically.
All I can guarantee you there is that through our con-
tractors the problem is looked at with no vested interest.
You can't listen to Joe Izuzu and buy a car without a little
bit of polish, that isn't the way it's going to be,
So In terms of the health rap, we should face up to
two things. The first is at the moment from extensive air
sampling, there is no asbestos in Ambler from that pile that
represents a human health threat. That is Che preaenC sit-
uation with no extra remediation.
The renediation that is proposed will insure that that
health threat remains at its' low stage forever. Borrowing
national disasters like volcanoes or tornadoes and other
things and believe me a little asbestos in the air under '
those situations will be Anbler's leaat problen.
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So you're going to stabilize chat agalnsc all of che
probable natural disasters, All of che probable rain, all
of che probable wind. That situation will only become more
and more solid over time, As Mr. Abreu mentioned, this la
a hill that is turning into concrete. This is a hill that
is turning into solid chalk aa the water evaporates out, as
the calcium carbonate goes out to cinder blocks and forms
a solid wall, This will become a more stable situation with
time and with the netting over the top, with the soil on top
of thac, whac you will have is a complece encapsulation.
It is the best wecandoeven if we move it to another site,
in terms of mixing the material.
So I an not speaking with a vested interest standpoint,
I am speaking to you aa a toxicologist that ia concerned
about health problems. I an firmly convinced that this is
the best possible solution aside from che cosmetic value or
lack thereof of the mountain itself, I believe that fron a
health standpoint, you are getting absolutely che besc deal.
And I wouldn'c be sitting here today, I wouldn't be working
with the agency if I didn't have those interests and I did
not beleive in that particular solution.
PETE PETSKY (phonetic spelling).' I an a private
consulcant. In your RI/FS report available to the public,
are all the specifics available to alternatives two and three
such as volune, such aa site designation?
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MR. MOLHOLT: He wants to know if all the aspects
of the other alternatives have been spelled out in the RI/FS
study,
1 MR, ABREU-CINTRON: Yes, it's all in detail.
Everything is broken down from sice preparacion all the way
through the final process.
MS. SINCLAIR; Mayor, did you have a question?
MR. HAYEN: In 1971 and '72 there was nothing
wrong. We are now back in 1988 nothing is wrong again. Are
we going to be nothing is wrong again In 1990?
MS. SINCLAIR: We never said nothing is wrong.
We cane out here in 1964 and did a renoval accion. We did
an emergency accion by immediately taking airborne asbestos
from the public and covering it over, Then right after that
we began our feasibility study. We never said there was
nothing wrong. It was put on the Superfund. We didn't have
the Superfund Bill until 1982.
MR. HAYEN; How long are we going to be continu-
ing with this. Is this going to keep going on?
MS. SINCLAIR; It's a permanent solution.
MR. HAYEN: This is a permanent solution?
MS. SINCLAIR; Yea.
MR. HAYEN: This Is It? This is the end of the
rainbow?
MR. MOLHOLT: You're nischaracterizing that the
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risk has gotten great and Che risk has gotten smaller and
Che risk has gotten great. It didn't occur Chat way. What
occurres Is we've gotten more and more Information in chac
allows us co understand exactly what is happening at the
site, We didn't understand those early airborne samples,
What we were detecting waa asbestos coning from Ambler homes,
not asbestos from the pile, We misunderstood the entire
characterization of it until we cook borings from the pile
and air samples from the pile racher than ambient air from
downcown Ambler,
MR. HAYEN; When dire comes back off chat pile
from a natural disaster or whatever, cones back off that
mountain, the air — it's back in the air and we start all
over again from ground zero? Ia that what we're supposed
to do and possibly do and like George said go through the
Ambler mountains and everything?
MR. MOLHOLT: It's going to get better. It's
going to have a cap on it. It's going to be a much better
mountain.MR, HAYEN: What do you do with all the
houses that sit out there and have aabestoa siding on it and
everything else? Do we cover' then over with dire, or do we
get rid of It?
MP.i ' ABREU-CITRON: This', is the case with
asbestos in the ground, piled up.
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MR. HAYEN: We know this problem.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: And it's covered up. It's
very different from asbestos in the home, Of course, you
can't cover up a home, There are programs for removal in
homes and schools. EPA has an asbestos program,
MR. HAYEN : What do you do wich those?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; Normal way. You come and
they cover the place with', a lining over' the building and
,'ith suits, they put it in special bags, double lined bags
with plastic and it is taken to an asbestos approved landfill
and burled. Exactly what is done in Ambler more or less,
being buried.
MR. HAYEN: So you haven't changed anything?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON : The nature of asbestos, it's
inert. It doesn't blodegrade. It stays there. It's a pro-
duct that comes fron the ground. It's a natural product.
It came from the ground. It doesn't blodegrade. It doesn't
leach. It sits there and we just can't, the vast alternative
and most feasible logically, it cane from the ground, put
it back and that's it.
MR. HAYEN: Until it wants to cone back up?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Until it cones up. But baaed
on what we've done here, we've done an investigation. We
came up with an alternative. If sonething like this should
happen, we don't have to go to the proceaa. We studied it.
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49cWe cover it.
MR. HAYEN; The problem I have is how many times
things get taken care of or don't get taken care of. They
mainly don't get taken care of, After you leave, we go
through this again and again and again.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: This is it.
MR. HAYEN: No, this is it now. But when it
comes back off and che earth changes again and we go through
the same process and all of a sudden we get complaints and
somebody goes out and checks it, we go through the sane pro-
cess.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: How do you imagine it cones
off? £
MR. HAYEN: Erosion.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: That ia part of the opeion,
maintenance, checking periodically,
MS. SINCLAIR: Operation and maintenance is part
of the Superfund alternative. And if che responsible party
doesn't take on the responsibility, EPA will, In nost cases
it's the responsibility of the state for operation and main-
tenance. They pay ten percent of all cleanups and nornal
Superfund needs kind of site where there is no responsible
party. In this particular case we, EPA, will be taking over
operation and maintenance unless we can work out some kind
of a situation like Hector said earlier, with the state to
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50take over that project. But there is a provision for opera-
tion and maintenance at every Superfund site, We don't
leave the community and have no one checking it.
MR. HAYEN: For 30 years?
MS. SINCLAIR; We don't Just walk away and not
check it for 30 years.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: That is the law.
A VOICE: Back to what Mr, Saurman was saying,
I wouldn't want to live across the street from a barbed wire
fence with signs, And I think that we do have a vested
interest in the community and that is to get rid of the '
mountain, So we will have sone value to the property that
is down there. We can, it's easy for us up here to say that
kind of thing, put the fence up. We will cover it, but we
don't live across the street fron it. She does and that to
me would be annoying,
JOHN BEAN; With different signs all up and downthat fence.
If you say you are going to put a higher fence there
with barbed wire, why don't you put the fence back to the
end of the slope and let us have that piece of property that
we used to have.
If you're going to put the fence back near the alley-
way, it's going to be high with barbed wire. It's the sane
thing on the other side. Why can't we have that piece of
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ground? We won't have chat fence in fronc of our house,
close as it is now.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: If there was a guarantee that
nooody would go on chac sice, if I had no fence at all, I
would do it. I can't guarantee it with the fence there now,
As you know, I've seen it myself, I've seen washing machines
and I've seen people go there.
MR, BEAN: Yes, chat is back where you don't have
a fence, It's a piece of fence there,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: They climb the fence.
MR. BEAN: You never put a fence there befora.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: The fence was never put in
totally. '
MR. MOLHOLT: Walt until we have a specific
question.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: We looked at opening Che
playground but we felt again if we do move it back with the
eight foot fence, children, there ia a potential that they
might get through aa children always do. It's cloaer.MR. BEAN: They are not doing 1C now,
A VOICE: That ia a maintenance problen then,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Would you feel confortable
with it?
MR. BEAN: Yes, with the fence in the back at
the slope.D
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A VOICE: And if they do cut holes in it, you
fix it, You said you would fix it for 30 years.
MR. ABRRU-CINTRON: We can look at it.
MR, MOLHOLT: It's a very good point,
MR. BEAN; The children are not playing on that
part' of the ground now because the fence is near the
street,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON : I understand your fear.
MR. BEAN: I don't care for that fence there
with a yellow sign here and a yellow sign there and here.
A VOICE; What is a sign? If it's an eight year
old kid or a six year old kid or a five year old kid, they
probably can't even read any of che words. It's nothing
going to scop then. If sonebody wants to throw garbage in
there, do you really think a sign is going to stop thorn?
MR, BEAN; That is what we are getting now,
garbage, trash,
A VOICE: But I don't think a sign is ;|0tng to
stop it.
Those kinds of people are going to throw crash In
there if they want to throw trash.MR, BEAN; That's true.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; For cases like that it's ,
job for connunity people to watch people moving by and tak: ng
license plates.
o r
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4MR. BEAN: How many people from Locust Street
is here? One. And that's me because I do care, I live
right across from that playground, And I would love to see
that fence moved back at the end of that slope,
MR, MOLHOLT: Put your comments in writing and
get it to us by June 29th.
MR. BEAN: I called you, I call Nanci all
the cime,
MS, SINCLAIR: What you are bringing up is a
valid point. It's a good point. As you know we have to have
a fence up, Anyone who knows about hazardous waste sitea,
knows that one of the lawa under Superfund is chac we have
co keep it somehow designated that there is a problem here.
We just cannot put a fence up, especially if there's lots of
children. I know you are worried about the children who
live on Locust Street. You don't want then clinbing all over
the landfill or the pile and you don't want then digging
into it. You are not concerned if there ia a fence, and you
are a resident acroas the street, You would like to see the
fence backed up. Hector and I will do what we can to speak
to our superiors, Bruce will go with us to back us up. We
want to see the fence put way back, but atill you agree the
necessity of the fence exists.
MR. BEAN: You don't have a reading there.
That's why.
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MS. SINCLAIR; None of us in this room put this
Superfund site in che town of Ambler. It was there. The
best we can do is work wich what we have, with the technology
we have, and the laws chat we have, and the money that we
have co cake r.are of Ic. And what we are doing, what we are
proposing is the best alcernacive to keep the children from
being exposed to any kind of a hazard, And what you are
suggesting, backing up Che fence, is noc something we can't
look at. iphac is something chac is reaaonable,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Ic's proposed which is why
we are here.
MS. SINCLAIR: Please send us your comnent in
writing.
A VOICE: Instead of worrying about 30 years of
maintenance, why don't we cut the years down and remove ic
in seven or ten or 12 yeara. Why do you want to worry
about 30 years of maintenance? Why does chat neighborhood
have to go through all this stuff about fences and signs?
MR. MOLHOLT: It's $265 million dollars.
A VOICE: I want this stuff renoved.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: I don't know if you saw the
law. There ia parts why we thought aboue this option.
There were other things, just the aspect of digging into the
piles exposes locals to threats immediately even though long
tern it would be gone, I didn't feel comfortable knowing
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5 S rthere would be a backhoe with a tractor digging into chis
pile,
A VOICE: I do respect your opinions, I also
heard, this is the first I heard a debate on this, I also
heard from the other side of the room a gentleman with
another opinion who saya maybe vitrification can work. And
I think it should be explored.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: It has been explored.
And in detail.
A VOICE: With this gentleman?
MR. MOLHOLT: This is your first time but we have
been looking at it for a number of years.
MS. SINCLAIR: Again -- £
(Simultaneous questions and conversation —
not reportable.)
MR. MOLHOLT: It has been looked at.
A VOICE: Where is the closest site that aabeatos
is deposiced ac now? You said that buildings in this area
are cleaning up their buildings. I know of buildings that
have been cleaned up in the area. Where ia the nearest one
to this borough?1
MS. SINCLAIR: Where ia what? '
A VOICE: Where is the closest site that haa been
designated as an asbestos site where ic can be deposiced and
buried?
}
' ... , .,, , • •— ' ---——— — •"•war• • . • • • - • < ' -• ,» - ' . . ' ' ••'*••'" MgiW.1*''-''* *•"•" '-1.-V--- --^*fi*.-*i'7, '
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MR. MOLHOLT: He is asking from the Philadelphia
area. The clean up of a building for asbestos, where do
they take the bags, what landfill.
\ MR. ABREU-CINTRON: It's in the report. They
mention three landfills that accept asbestos.
MR. MOLHOLT: Ic has Co be a designated sice.
A VOICE: That is what I am asking. I'd like
to know where the closest one is, The reason I ask that is
because with some quick calculations there is roughly 6400
truckloads of soil, and that becomes a simple mathematics.
If you run ten trucks a day, it is only going to take you
so long to move that pile and based on the technology that
we have now, if you're watering during that excavation pro-
cess where is it going to go? It's not going to go in the
air. You do it while it rains. You do it with a sprinkler
system over it to contain the process. I mean these are
simple principles. I wouldn't want to build my house there;
would you?
Now that is contained is it safe?
MR. MOLHOLT: I would build my house there.
A VOICE: Nobody I think in this borough wants
those piles there. They need1 to be moved. •
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: There is Grand Central
Landfill in Plainfleld Township in North Hampton
County, Pennsylvania. It has a capacity of 840,000 cubic
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yards is maximum,
There is another one in Pottstown. This is twoir.UHon
cubic yards is maximum, They get their maximum and it
closes, Another one is in Taylor Borough, 100 miles from
Ambler. Pottscown is —
Grand Central and North Hampton, Potcscown and one in
Taylor Borough. Those are the closest ones.
A VOICE: We are looking at a realistic amount
of miles as far as turn around and trucking.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Turning trucks and driving.
A VOICE: Just the actual cost, I don't
understand the direct relationship of 260 million dollars.
If you figure out the cost to a truck rental for a day —
MR. MOLHOLT: Where did you gee the estimace of
che number of truckloads?
A VOICE: That's very simple, sir. I am using
your figures, 1.26 million cubic yards.
MR. MOLHOLT: That is 1,60 tons.
A VOICE: No, it's not. It's nowhere near that,
When you calculate, say an average triaxle uses about nine
to ten yarda, okay?
MR, MOLHOLT: How many tona?
A VOICE: Roughly 22, give or take. It's sinple
math.
MR. MOLHOLT: You said 6400 tons. rAR5D0066
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58A VOICE: Roughly 6400 truckloads, averaging 22 cons
per cruck.
MR. MOLHOLT; This is too complicated for me,
Maybe you should submit that in writing also chat we will
consider before we make a final determination. If the mathe-
matics are correct and Chac looks like a cost effective
option and the landfill option is there, we have to consider
it.
I am not trying to put you off. I am saying hey, may-
be you got something,
MR. HAYEN: Didn't you say earlier that you
couldn't move it from the site. Wasn't that the new law
coming out?
MS, SINCLAIR: Under the Superfund amendment
Beauthorizatlon Act of 1986, part of the law says that we
have what is known as a land ban that is in effect, meaning
that no Superfund sice can Just pick up hazardous waste and
bring ic to another site to bury it,
MR. HAYEN: So all that doesn't matter anyway.
MS. SINCLAIR; Under the law we can't do that.
The land ban is in effect up until Novenber of '88. As of
Novenber of '88 we can no loriger do that,
MR. HAYEN: So if that ia true, you have to
scare looking into other methods fron the housing and the
schools and everything else.
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- 1ly"**MS. SINCLAIR: You are talking about a different
issue.
MR, HAYEN: I am asking because you are going
to have some kind of a company that is going to have to
be created to get rid of the product in the first place,
One way or the other down the line you are going to have to
do that.
So spend your money on something that you can use now,
MS, SINCLAIR: Sir, you are confusing the whole
issue here because this site that we are talking about is
only in a Superfund site and the kind of waste that we are
talking about is a lot different than what we find in the
schools and old buildings. The schools and old buildings /
and pipes and all that are pure asbestos. And what we are
talking about here is a mixture. Aa Bruce explained and aa
Hector explained, and what we are doing for Superfund sites
and not for schools and for buildings, is looking at alctr-
native technology to take care of all the sites,
We have a whole complete program, called a site inno-
vative technology program. Innovative technology are being
demonstrated across the country for disposal purposes. One
is real close by in King of Prussia called Terravac (phonetic
spelling) and what we're doing is we went fron should we
excavate this landfill that has a lot of hazardous waate in
it and bring it, truck it through your neighborhood. Truck
D
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a hundred trucks a week or whatever, through — 30 trucks
a day, Put it that way, through the neighborhood to truck
this hazardous waste out to the main roads and turnpike,
Or should we try what is known as Terravac which is more
feasible because it actually got the volatile or organics
out of the soil, And the whole community including local
officials are more in favor of seeing that Terravac used on-
site because it waa feasible alternative to be used and part
of that site program, and it was very cost effective. Aa
opposed to having truckloads of contaninated soil going
through the neighborhood.
MR. HAYEN: Why are you going through that truck-
loads if you have a company that sits on the site and every-
thing is there.
MS. SINCLAIR: That is a whole different issue.
MR. HAYEN: Everything is a different issue.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: It's a breakdown for vitrifix
and there is a breakdown for transportation.
MR. HAYEN: There is a breakdown for everything.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: It has to be. We have to
specifically detail everything, We don't want to brush off
vitrifix because of coat which could have been quite simple.
We could have said it's too expensive. We can't do it and
never looked at it. Vitrifix have not even looked at the
other two landfills in New Hampshire and Illinois.
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•JWe felt due to the interest of the borough, and due to the
Interest from the people in the town, we should look into
vitrification. Is this feasible, knowing it might be
expensive. We said let's look at this, Let's look at it.
We broke it down, the costs and we looked at that. As I
said, the alternatives. We looked at the costs. We looked
at the health benefits or risks that might be caused by the
alternatives. Technical feasibility of doing it. The
regulations we might need or regulations and laws that might
apply to this method. It was that Chat we based our deci-
sion on and vitrifix was looked at,
Taking it off site waa also shunned upon aa Nanci said.
It creates another problem. That kind of nade it — also (~
under the land ban, trying to avoid things like people
taking hazardoua waste and shifting it around like a chess
piece. We don't want to do that. YOu can do many things
wich hazardous chemicals. Asbescos in icself is jusc like
he says, a very inere object. It doesn't leach. It does
nothing. The only hazard is breathing it. It hasn't been
proven that drinking it can cause cancer. It's been under
study and looked at. But the actual hazard is breathing it
and covering the piles or basically burying' asbestos has
been found to be the obvious solution because you are elimi-
nating the major problem, which is breathing it. As long
as you don't breathe it, you're fine. It can stay in the
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ground.
62
MR. HAYEN; I would like to go on record that
I would like to see it removed. Not the other alternatives,
GEORGE BENIGNO: Lifelong resident of Ambler and
a borough official.
I have several quesclons. I have been dealing wich
che borough scaff when chis problem first cane up, When
EPA first came ouc Co the site because che site was on an
old list of hazardous materials site, and we did your initial
air samples and your wipe-downs, how much asbestos did you
find?
find?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: What date?
MR. BENIGNO: How many fibers did you actually
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: What time?
MR. BENIGNO: Around '83 when you cane and said
you had to close the playground down immediately.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Actual nunber?
MR. BENIGNO; Yea.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; I have to look around. There
was percentages and actual account.
swlngset.
MR. BEAN: There 'is about Cwo percent on the
MR. UENIGNO: Ac Chat point became a crisis?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: The number exceeded the
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63 -sOrequired amount.
MR. BENIGNO; And decided you would cover 1C and
went through the whole process,
MR. MOLHOLT : Reinvestigation of those samples
has caused some of the techniques used at that time in
question. It's not proper forum to do Ic here, Lee me scace
Co do ic chere are three different ways of dececcing asbestos
some of which are quick, which was needed at that time, but
dirty. That Is they do not distinguish asbestos fibers fron
other macerials in che dust. That two percent figure was
probably quite on the high side.
I want to say Chac for che record.
MR. BENIGNO: Okay. I chink the question becomes
if you live In an autonated, complex society asbestos is
found everywhere. I've talked to friends that tell me that
work in the same fields that you people work at, that if you
set up an air sampling machine in Center City Philadelphia,
ac Broad and Vine, you will pick up enough asbestos Chac you
would literally declare Chat intersection a hazardous materla:
site. Because it Is juat that much airborne asbestos fron
vehicles constantly braking and novlng. It la a busy inter-
section. Any busy intersection you'll find it,
I think why we are a little concerned is sure, previous
staff nenbers here or previous borough manager heard about
this procesa, read about it, and connected us with Dr,
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Roberts. Yes, it'a a legitimate point. Certainly Dr. Robert
Is a businessman, He wanes to push his process in the United
States. He has somewhat of a vested interest. I don't think
there is anything wrong with capitalism. That is the name
of the game.
I think what concerns us here in Ambler we were pro-
mised religiously that there would be a thorough indepth,
comprehensive gathering, meeting with Dr. Roberta and his
staff and his vested interest, and your neutral consultant,
Now we are hearing that it was a half hour conversation.
And we are hearing hin say I think it might cost me if I
build the big plant which could be taken away in four to five
years. Ten to fifteen million dollars, and you people are
saying according to our consultant he figured the plan some-
where around 150 million dollars, I an not saying you people
are wrong. I am not saying Dr. Roberts is wrong.
Can you understand why there is sone doubt anong us?
MR. MOLHOLT: Can you understand we can't make
those decisions tonight, and that if Dr, Roberta wants to
put in his biased proposal for the record before June 29,
there ia no problen with us looking at that with the help
of our consultant to see if these are accurate and agreeable.
MR. BENIGNO: Our concern is, and I'n speaking,
I'm sort of with the group, I think too often the way we
approach nasty problems in the American society ia lee's
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take che quick, cheap money solution, resolve it for now,
and don't worry about the next generation or two generations
down the road, I mean we could use the same approach in our
managr.ng of our municipal affairs. We got a nice major pot-
hole developing on a bridge. So we put a little coal patch
and come back two months later, put a bigger coal patch.
Sooner or later we have a problem, Why does American have
infrastructure problems? Because we have been doing that
for 40 years,
Now, I realize you people are responsible to do it
cost effectively. I have to say when I see what you are say-
ing, and I haven't read all the technical stuff and I will
be the first person to tell you that. I know this gentlenan /
just vaguely. We have had maybe two words between us. Ic
sounds Co me just as a dumb laynan standing here with the
rest of these dumb laymen, that maybe that aspect of your
study is a bit fraud, I am a little concerned that when they
looked at the third phase chac, if che only input they got
from Dr. Roberta was a half hour fron his assistant on the
telephone, I an not sure really vitrification got a fair
hearing from your consultant. Maybe we, you know we work
In municipal affairs, You can telegraph to1 your consultant
sort of what you would like your result to be, If you know
what I mean. You can give general subtle hints of what we
think we are going to end up here and that Is what the anawar
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66is.
I know there were resistance at the other two sites
of vitrification. We were told EPA had approved che site
I 'thought in West Virginia for a pilot test, vitrification
on asbestos or some other similar product. Do you know any-
thing about that? .
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Not a site. I went to it.
It wasn't a site, They basically took a glass manufactur-
ing facility and they borrowed their furnace for a week or
something, and they created a pilot study and brought in bags
of pure asbestos fron wherever. They took it through the
glass and washed it and so forth at the process, It wasn't
a site, It was basically juat a glasa production plant lent
then the facility for a week so they could bring in people
to look at it.
MR. ROBERTS: Could I explain that just for the
record?
We did a demonstration of the process, and you are
quite right, it was at an existing glass works. We actually
had to especially rebuild the equipnent. We bought it fron
the glaaaworka. We had to especially rebuild it.
It's a nlsnoner to say 'asbestos coming fron normal
factory work is pure asbestos. The average ia anywhere fron15 to 25 percent asbestos. The rest is made up usual detrac-
tivea which comes with it, the brick, plaster, cement, ao on.
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It was that that we tested that.
I was attempting to stay quiet for the rest of Che
meeting, But to make a formal written presentation to you,
I would also like to have che opportunity to have a meeting
co discuss the thing in more detail, At this moment I have
no idea whether the.vitrifix program Is economical in this
instance or not. I do know that I put a loc of work in
chinking abouc ic, and I don't think I've had quite the oppor
tunity that I had hoped I would have in contributing to the
report that you presented. And I'm sure between us we can
put that right.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Sure.
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H have a problem. And if all we do is — it would be fine if
IS you could say to me if we cover it with three feet of dirt
16 and we regrassify it and we don't have to put up any fences
17 and any signs for all intents and purposes, any person who
IB drives through Ambler would say well it's a nice town. I
IB wonder why this outcropping of the 50 foot mountains here
20 in Ambler. You know, you put that fence up, barbed wire
21 on top of it and a big yellow sign and I'n the guy that in
13 yeara I have been with the borough, I get chose phone
calls, I get then regularly. I get three a week. And
people get the noat wierd ideas because they caught something
out of Philadelphia Inquirer or the New York Tines or this
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68paper and that paper and you know, they think people are
literally dying in this community from this pile, And I sit
down and explain to them, no, it's neutralized. No, they
didn't find any serious amounts of asbestos fiber off-site.
They found it on the playground which is right next to the
site. We don't show any in the general Philadelphia back-
ground areas any higher incidence of cancer or lung disease.
Yes, people in Ambler that come down sick are people that
work with ic all their life. Either mechanics, shipyard
workers, in the manufacturing of the plant. The general age
grouping of Ambler. I go through this because I'm constant-
ly dealing with it.
So I get a laynan'a feel, We would rather see you
spend another ten tines of what you are planning to spend
once and for all, Clear the 25 acres which I would like to
say is both in the Anbler Borough, Upper Dublin Township and
which is notched to a major preserve which would be a terri-
fic thing. Let's get rid of ehls scuff, You know, we
calked about you can't transport hazardous waate. We are
In a volunteer fire company. I an in a conaortlng loss con-
trol group. I'n the chairman of it. Do I know Sara? Oh,
do I know Sara. Sara ia a wonderful bill, > Quite frankly,
I wish they got nore inpue from Che laynen, fron Che fire-
fighera, fron the energency responders instead of I don't
know who put it into the bill. But some of the things ara
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a little impractical. I would like co say Chat I really
chink before we push forward in spending five million dollar*
for three feet of dire, I would really like what we were
promised, the borough officials, three years ago, that vit-
rification would get a fair and honest hearing, So far,
fron what you people, from EPA are saying to me, and fron
what Dr. Roberts ia saying, and I agree with you. I under-
stand what Dr. Roberts is coming from and accept that, Hi
is trying to sell us something. That is the American process
But I don't, I really strongly don't feel that he got a fair
hearing because I know and maybe I shouldn't say this. May-
be you people will get mad at ne. I know with ny conversa-
tion with the borough manager, there were aone people ac :he
local EPA office that alnost were kicking and screaalng that
they don't want to look at vitrification because they said
we looked, at it In Rhode Island or somewhere, and it don't
«.work. *•
So there were some preconceived notions going into
this. So all I want to say is I think we would be happy if
you take the 25 acres and you completely clean then over the
next 15 years ao we can do something with the ground,
Instead of just covering then and then maybe the potential
to cone back in ten years. We got sediment. We got to do
sone other work with it or the fence is falling down. We
got to put in new fencing. And let's face it, whether you
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70like it or not, the grass has got to be cut every two weeks
for seven months a year and that isn't going to be cheap,
friends,
That is all I have to say.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: I would like to answer in
terms of vitrifix. Or, Roberts is not the only patent on
this process. We not only talked to Dr. Roberts, we talked
to Matel Industries which also has a process similar to this.
I'n saying that the vitrifix process is noc solely
patented by Dr. Roberta. Matel Industries also has that
process and we have talked to them.
MR. HAYEN: Could you bring then here too?
A VOICE: A company from West Virginia that
called and are interested in the procesa also.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: In terms of what can be con-
sidered, a fair analysis of the procesa in terms of via that
half an hour, some conversations that lasted a half hour and
a conversation that lasted eight hours. I an not saying that
it waa just a half hour waa enough or not. I can honestly
say our contractors looked at all aspects. We got nunbers
fron Dr. Roberta, be it a half hour or whatever it waa, and
we got the necessary nunbers.' We don't need- ouch to nake
theae numbers out. We Just need to know how much cost per
ton, how much cost per hour.
Again, I say we talked with Matel and they gave us cer-
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tain estimates and got a general idea. We looked at it as "-
in depth as much as we could.
All you need to know is various, like I said tons per
i*our you have, how much does the process cost and how would
you go about doing it. I mean how would you dig into the
pile safely,
MR. HAYEN: Tunnel slurry it. It's like coal
mining. If he is right, and this is creating like sealing
it, and concreting it, if you cook aucomaced machinery and
tunnelled and you located your treatment facility, and if
you fill in the lagoon area, you could put that plant right
between it or you can put it in a location within a half
mile of it, If you tunnel and slurry it and a closed con- r~
veyor belt system, you could probably meet it. I don't know
what the coats would be. But everybody keeps talking about
bringing a big bulldozer and digging it up. I don't know.
I am not the expert. But there are ways to get the material
to the plant.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; Well there ia different
methods of doing that. Tunnel.
MR. HAYEN: Moat of the stuff got there by
slurry. It was watered on. " It wasn't haul-ed on.
MR. ABREU- CINTRON: The calciun carbonate
in there is over like 110. It's very very liquid. Not very
stable. I don't want to be around when you cut in through
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Che cap and that scuff oozes out. How would you be able co
control chac amount, You are calking thousands and thou-
sands of tons of scuff oozing out. Ic ia very, very liquid,
If you do a tunnel, I'm positive, I'm 100 percent sure, Che
Cunnel would fill itself up wich this white gook. If you
cue into it, I keep, using examples of chocolate covered
cherry, but that is all I can think of. You break it and
it would ooze out.
If you can guarantee me you can control it in a way
that it would not ooze into Locust Street and not ooze into
Wissahickon Creek, fine.
Let's say we cut into it. What would happen if thou-
sands of tons of this stuff starts oozing out of the pile.
How could we control it? If it burns, would the vacuuna
have the capacity to suck it in tine.
MR. HAYEN: The only difference is I adnit the
process looked like from your nunbers, extremely expensive.
But the difference is the end result. It's a safe product.
It is not a hazardous product.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: What if it is unsafe while
you'rt doing it? What if you are exposing the people?
MR. HAYEN: First of all, boch the seats and
che federal governnene are noc going Co permit the process
unless he has given you a method of air containment control.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Yeah. He has Co prove it
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73is safe.
MR, HAYEN; We have another gentleman working
with a similar product, which is not your EPA problem, but
it is DER controlled, who is going to — what he tells us
— he ia going to excavate into that pile, mix it with
cement and turn it into building blocks,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: How big?
MR. HAYEN: I would say six, seven acres, George?
You can actually aee the pile behind you on that pic-
ture.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON : You can't compare 1.2
million tons to a couple thousand.
MR. HAYEN: This pile is 50 feet high. It's
two blocks long and at its widest point it is 70, 80 feet.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; The pile behind the McDonald
restaurant?
MR. HAYEN; Yes.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; That is nowhere near as big
as Locust,
MR. HAYEN: I agree. But still it's not —
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: It's not 50 feet tall
either, I've aeen it, I've walked it. At the noat is
20, 25 feet, It's just the size is not conparative.
, Also in studying the piles and borings, we found
the existence of this very mushy white stuff. I don't know
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the consistency of this other stuff.
MR, HAYEN: Exact same material.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: I don't know anything about
it, There has been studies.
MR. HAYEN: That is what I'm saying. This has
always been the question we've always asked is why waan'.t
that pile looked at, All we were told was that pile has
vegetation on it and we don't think it's a problem,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: At the time I think it was
fenced in and stuff like that, I guess the issue is if we
looked into vitrifix and I think we have.
We can gee more information. Dr. Roberts can send us
whatever he wants, better numbers. Fron the information we
got from other industries that also has this process, we
came up with these numbers in the report.
MS, SINCLAIR: Can we go on to another person's
question?
JOHN BEAN: I an John Bean and I an a military
retiree and I have seen the army engineers change faces of
nature. And we can't even change the face of one snail town.
Now you say you don't have a place to put this material,
You have one place, I don't know if you looked into it or
not. It is the ideal place for it, It's alnost deserted
right now and that is Centralia. Centralia is tht place when
you can dump that. It's burning underneath it.
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»)MS. SINCLAIR: We can never cake hazardous waste'
from one site and bring it to a town where there is an under-
ground mine fire. What we could do is only dispose of it
in a landfill that is licensed to accept hazardous waste.
And like I said up until November ;S<3, that is our cutoff
date, we will no longer do chat, We couldn't ea!:e ic co
anocher Cown and dispose of ic because chey have chst. sore
of a problem. •;
MR. MOLHOLT: (NoC reporcable.)
MS. SINCLAIR: We can'c do anyching like ehae,
sir.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON : Why give che problen to some-
body else?
MR. BEAN: Vie town la being evacuated, Every-
body has moved out.
MS. SINCLAIR: The people agreed to it. There
are actually a lot of people still living there in Centralia.
Even if it was evacuated like Love Canal, we wouldn't take
hazardous fron one place co another, Love Canal ia a town
that was evacuated because of a problem.
This is nothing like Love Canal so I don't want any-
body to get the wrong idea.
MR. SABIA: I an a resident in the Borough and
I listened here for two hours. I have learned a little some-
thing. And I listen here now and I saw your four alterna-
^
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tives, it seems a foregone conclusion that the first was out
of the question, The vitrifix, according to yet., is out of
che queation because it is too expensive. And your opening
rinark, you just verified it again when Mr, Bean spoke, we
couldn't take it up to Centralia and in deed, as of sometime
the end of this year, we are not allowed to take this mater-
ial off the site at all. It has sore of crimped my style
because I was under the impression this was a good move.
So in effect, all this beautiful work you have done
and I understand it is your job. This gentleman wants Co
sell his produce. You are all being paid by us taxpayers.
Ic's a foregone conclusion you are going Co do number four?
MR. MOLHOLT; No, it is not foregone.
MR. SABIA: You have 13 days now that people
have to get in this, It seens to me, it's pretty well-
addressed because you rulfiH out the other three. If that
is the case then we have to live with it I suppose.
Mr. Romano had some thoughts earlier about leveling
it off. Which makes some sense. If you are going to put,
is it four feet of fill over this?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Three feet.
MR. SABIA: Okay. You are going to put that
over it, and I think I heard soneone say that it would be
safe.
A VOICE: Hector, for the record, please describe
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where the cover material will be on the piles?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: We are not covering the
whole pile, This here with the lines are the parts we will
cover with three feet, the top part. The area that is.
MR. SABIA: The area that is gray?
MS. SINCLAIR: This.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: This and these little pat-
ches, Everything else we won't touch. It is Just fine,
MR. SABIA: Then my question is, if indeed we
were to level it off to some degree, would you say it would
be safe to build on that ground?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON : No, it is not very stable.
MR. SABIA: I an not saying that you wouldn't /"
have to put certain foundations and then build.
Would it be safe or ia there always going to be fear
which seems to be prevalent throughout this group? That
asbestos can rise up through this and maybe, I'm thinking
that perhaps you could put housing for elderly or something
of that nature along with this park that has been suggested.
It seems it's a perfect place for that sort of thing
because it's right next to the creek which is a beautiful
creek and on the other side 'it's gane. You' have a train
station here. It would be a boon to Montgonery County, and
I think the entire area.
But if indeed it is not safe then you can't do that.
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And what you are suggesting then is you are going to have
this mouiVM^ri that will be here forever, If chat's the case,
'I guess I will just have co live with it,
MR, MOLHOLT: We do have other sites remediated
to such a degree that they are stable, Not sites under
which there are drums or anything else. We do have sites
stabilized and now can be used for other purposes like parks
and like building and so on,
The major problem here is not the asbestos from the
standpoint of doing that. The major problem here is the
shakey yellow like condition of the majority of that pile
which would prohibit the building.
MR. SABIA: You could drive piles through it.
There are other neans of foundations through it to get down
through virgin soil, deep down to the rock, which is not
far below that,
MR. MOLHOLT: I don't think that anybody would
choose to drive through 30 feet of yellow like material,
MR. SABIA: Put that banner on it and it goes
down unteen feet sitting on it. You're going to make a lot
of noney.
MR. MOLHOLT; But you're.not talking about the
remediation of the site, You are talking the future develop-
ment of that site.
MR. SABIA: Okay. But it's all based on what
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'
Che determination of this is and furthermore if you do what '-
was suggested by Mr, Romano and you used the word Gabion,
you didn't use that correctly, Because a little later on
you said concrete, A gabion is not concrete, It's a cage
filled with scone,
MR, ABREU-CINTRON: Eicher chac or rifraff.
MR, SABIA: You Indicated concrete as being a
retaining wall , Now which is it?
MR, ABREU-CINTRON: It's not final, I Just used
gabion and that term — gabion would sound beccer. We would
use whatever we feel —
(ConversaClons simultaneous — noc reporcable.)
MR. SABIA: If it's gabions you see the water (
or whatever would trickle ehrough ic. If you puc concrete
wall or whatever there, then you could level it off and have
a nice area.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Probably concrete. Probably
not gabion.
MR. SABIA: Even if you put the concrete where
the gabions are you have to disturb that area.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; You are talking about a pile.
You are not talking digging into the pile. .
MR, SABIA: You will disturb that arna.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: We have to.
MR. SABIA: But in effect, after two hours it
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seems we are stuck with this lasc alternative.
I have one other question and if I'm long, please tell
me, But the other question I have is you did some remedial
work there and a contractor came in and put 12 inches of top
soil over that area.
My question is, was that a competitive bid or was —
how was that handled?
MS. SINCLAIR: That was done under the emergency
response which already has a national contractor at the time
it was OH Materials, and they were done under the emergency
response contracting system,
We have them available at all times for emergency
response and that's the group that cane out back in '84,
Now we have a lot of these mini contractors with the new
Supert'ound Law and we have a lot of other emergency response
contraccors who also bid on projects Che emergency projects,
And they were, they were always hired out of headquarters,
So our primary emergency response contractor was hired
through the Washington office.
MR, ROMANO: Can we have the councilman speak
first?
DON: I an the new borough nanager.
I want to go back to the long tern naintenance question
If I renenber correctly, the responsible party normally picks
up ehe long term naintenance cost. Since the responsible
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party of Nicolet or Turner is bankrupt and EPA and DER are
going Co enter in a contract to see chac Che grass is cut
and the law is maintained or gabions are going to be main-
tained.
MS, SINCLAIR: They make sure the fence isn't
destroyer, che cap. isn't destroyed. That is mainly what the
operation is going to take care of. We still have another
responsible party, We will be sending them
in the next week or two,
BOROUGH MANAGER; My point is that this kind of
goes back to what Representative Saurman was saying about
Che Anbler and che potential for growth. Let's say that
there was a potential for sale of that property, would the (
new buyer buy that responsibility and also buy the liability
of sonebody going over the fence even If the fence and signs
are there, and the potential lawsuit?
MS. SINCLAIR: Under Superfund, EPA does not
Indemnify anybody, Anyone who is the present owner of the
sice is also liable for the site.
Th« second thing which you said if chere is a new
owner. Whenever we have a Superfund site, even if it's in
the nidst of a sale, anyone who we consider' a past or pre-
sent owner, if they knowingly bought the site as being part
of a Superfund site, they are considered technically con-
sidered a potential responsible party. So therefore, they
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receive a notice letter, They have to go through negotia-
tions with us, We sit down and work things out with us.
BOROUGH MANAGER: The responsibility from Super-
fund, EPA stop?
MS. SINCLAIR: No. It never stops.
BOROUGH MANAGER: It Is a cooperative maintenance
agreement with whoever the new owners will be?
MS. SINCLAIR; Yeah. We work that out with a
separate consent agreement, We have co work everyching ouc
with a separate agreement whenever a new responsible party
is naned.
But anyone either past or present owner, If a past
owner filed bankruptcy and is in bankruptcy, they are still
considered a potential responsible party even if we have to
join a long list of creditors and become 800, they eventually
have to come back to us too.
A VOICE: That doesn't cut the grass though.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: No. We wouldn't stop. All
through negotiations we maintain that.
MS. SINCLAIR: We continue maintenance.
A VOICE: What happens now?
A VOICE: How much does maintenance coat over
30 years?
MS. SINCLAIR: Ten percent of ehe project.
A VOICE: What is ten percent of the project?
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MR, ABREU-CINTRON: Half a million,
BOROUGH MANAGER: So essentially what you are
saying is anybody who wants to buy it is crazy,
MS, SINCLAIR: I didn't say that.
BOROUGH MANAGER: Basically we are stuck with
them che way they are, covered with and planted on.
MS, SINCLAIR: We are asking everybody to send
your comments in writing and hopefully we will send them
before the 29th, If Mr. Roberts will send us the proposal,
if he can Guarantee us that his alternative to remediate Che
sice won'c cost a hundred million dollars, then we can talk
with him and if it's a viable solution and if our toxicolo-
gist and our scientists agree it can be worked out, we will (
sit down and we are planning to accept, not accept, but
review any proposal he is going to sit down with us and talk
about.
Just as anybody's comments we are accepting them.
MR. ROMANO: I would like to havemy alternative
proposal put in also,
MS. SINCLAIR: Everybody right now is being
verbally given to the court reporter. However, you have to
write it, go through the litcle bit of the extra work or
whatever to write it and send it to Hector or myself,
A VOICE: May I say just one thing?
MS, SINCLAIR: Yea.
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A VOICE: Are you telling us no matter what che
Borough of Ambler chinks, you are going co be Che final
decision. We have co eat your final decision that is number
one?
MS. SINCLAIR; You don't have to pay for it.
A VOICE: I don't want to hear money.
MR. MOLHOLT: We are the final deciders.
A VOICE: I live with my children and so do those
people in this community. So I don't want to hear money.
MS, SINCLAIR; I thought that is what you meant.
A VOICE: I don't want to hear money. I just
want to know do the people of Ambler have to go with and
legally have to go with what you people decided to do with
these mountains right now?
MR. MOLHOLT: yes.
A VOICE: We have no other alternative litiga-
tion?
MR. MOLHOLT: You can sue the agency.
A VOICE: That is great for the lawyers, The
thing is that I'n telling you that I agree with Mr. Sabia
and I usually don't agree with Mr. Sabia that often. But
I agree with hin that sitting here for the last two hoursand after 15 ninutea when I heard you people speak in tht
beginning and I turned over to Mr. Decenbrino and said we
are going to eat these mountains. And that is what I ftsl,
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You people have made your decision, I really feel that, '
And that is my feeling. I think some of you, You really
made your decision, I really don't think if I was a betting
man, I would bet right now you are going to cover chose
mountains, you are going to put the fence up, put the signs
up,
MS. SINCLAIR: If somebody can guarantee us that
we don'c have to pay 100 million to do something that is
still effective and also can be health effective and not
expose the community to any asbestos from the center of the
pile, then we have something to sit down and look at. Some-
thing that is technically feasible, Let Hector speak.
Everyone is speaking but Hector. ,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Our job, EPA, is to try to
find alternatives which are on the list, and address then
in the way we can avoid any sort of health threats to the
public and find a cost effective alternative, Cost is a part
of it too. Again, cost is not our prime factor, It is one
of many factors.
The main factor in Ambler is that it ia not causing
any health problems. That is our number one problem, to
make sure there are no health' threats caused by the site,
If there was, we would get it out of there. If -the" nunbers
had cone up the Ambler pile was causing some sort of emis-
sion problems with the Borough of Ambler, I would say get
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ic out of here, I could not come here and say we got reading
all over the town and such and such amount, but we are going
to leave it here,
v We did the study and found no emissions, nothing was
coming from the pile, so we decided preliminary, that this
is all proposed as che process goes, we said chis seems to
be the best thing to do, We come to che public, The law
says we should do that and give them the opportunity to see
whether it is good or not,
The strange situation with Ambler is that as it
stands now, I keep saying, I repeat there is not a health
threat fron the pile.
MR. MOLHOLT: You may hear us aa saying that we
got our minds made up, We hear you saying don't worry about
the health threats, Take down the signs, Let our children
not know what is up on the pile and worry about property
values. We are worried about — we understand all those,
We can only work under our mandate from Congress on the basis
of health threats,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Property values do not go
into effect. Value or any sort of reasoning,
Aesthetics does not go into the' process of the
solution. Is it hurting people, it is a health threat? That
is the problem, If it's not then what is the problem.
A VOICE: It would be great instead of you don't
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have to put signs up hazardous material dump. I mean the
problem with hazardous materials is you have 900 and some
identifiable hazardous materials. Some of them quite frankly
and we know this because we work with them as emergency
first responders, will kill you just like that. Asbestos
won't unless you inhale it and you have to inhale it most
likely over an extended period of cime, But still it is
lumped together as a hazardous material.
You put signs on the fences, federal wildlife preserve,
and I don't think anybody would argue with you. But as soon
as you put chat sign up that says it's a hazardous material,
dump, whether you like ic or not there is a bonus on Ambler.
You are celling us che risk is chat high. ,
MS. SINCLAIR: Ic could say no crespassing,
MR. MOLHOLT: I believe Chac Che wording of that
sign is something that is purely negotiable and I think you
raised a very good point. And I think all concerned people
who would like to insure the safety of their children but woulc
also like co not make chis an eyesore could not only talk
about the wording on that sign, but also the color of the
sign, everything, It should be sonething that will protect
public health, It does not have to say dump, It probably
could be worded strictly for asbestos not for hazardous
materials. It could be worked out. We need your input on
that. >
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A VOICE: Let me go back Co what Mr, Romano said
about spreading ic out. As high as ic is right now and you
put a cap on it on che cop of Ic, with that height would
there still be erosion in time and if you knock half of it
off and flatten off wouldn't chac cue down erosion?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: With che cap on, based on
other things we find the drainage flows Co divert the runoff,
a concrete type chute.
Hopefully thac will address all erosion problems,
That is one of our big aspects of looking into ic, Try to
avoid erosion which seems to be the biggesc problem.
MR. ROMANO: There would be less erosion piled,
less high and flattened out?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: I mean obviously shorter,
flatter, ic would be less erosion.
Again, you gee into che problem of cuteing into it and
getting into the material.
MR. MOLHOLT: It's not eroding now on the
hazard site so this could be maintaining itself.
A VOICE; Couldn't you do this, knock part of
that off and cap it with cenent and nake cenent roads up
there? Then you wouldn't have erosion,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: You nean cenent on the top?
A VOICE: Use it for a lookout mountain.
MR. SABIA: More erosion. A hard surface area.
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89The water would runoff.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON! Grass and vegetation tend
Co move che runoff just minimizing erosion effecc, If you
have a flat surface, Another problem how thick would you
want to have ic wlch added pressure on top.
We would have to study this, I am sure if concrete
cap idea, and all those possible remedial alternatives, I
defer to what che gentleman said here that we study chese
four alternatives and we have not studied all of them.
A VOICE: Does the state have any position on
the matter?
A VOICE; I'll tell you what. At the present
time we are reviewing the document and we have not formally
concurred with the proposal. So we are reviewing it right
now, So we sit with the rest of you and we will submit our
comment before che 29th of June,
A VOICE; What is the process for existence?
A couple of individuals in the audience brought up some pro-
grams, viable remedial alternatives, and here we have 13 days
of public review period before the next phase is Instituted,
MS. SINCLAIR: You want to extend --
A VOICE: I an asking is there 'a possibility of
a nonth's extension?
c
MS. SINCLAIR: It's not usually a month,
A VOICE: Whatever extension period, so Dr,
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Roberts could have a fairly lengthy meeting with you, Maybe
Mr. Romano would have time.
MS, SINCLAIR: He could meet with us before the
29th.
A VOICE; I don't understand.
MS. SINCLAIR: Could I answer his question,
please?
A VOICE: Walt a minute. You are sitting here
and saying you have been studying this for three years or
two years and now you've got all these questions and you
are going to settle this in 13 days.
MS. SINCLAIR: No. We put this in the paper
back on May 27th. It has actually been over 30 days and I
have gotten several calls from the reporter who told me not
only reporters, but residents who said they saw the ad in
the paper and they called about the meeting. So people have
seen it, I also announced it will be available for review
in more depth like che volumes that Hector has besides just
this proposed plan that have been reviewed by different
people who called us already.
So people have seen it, We are not making the deci-
sion in 30 days, We have been gathering this data as we
gather the data we also looked into alternatives. And we
listed these four alternacivea as mose prevalent
based on che daca Chat we received during the renedial
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„]investigation. So we still, as Hector said, are proposing
chis alternative. As far as your question is --
A VOICE: Well, my question is there have been
t lot of good ideas and we have 13 days to present these
good ideas, What I don't want to see is a bureaucratic door
shut. Somebody comes on the first of July and says I have
an excellent excellent concept. You people would say gee
ic was a good concept, Ic's a shame you dldn'c give it to
us yesterday.
MS, SINCLAIR; If you want a formal extension
it usually is not a month, but a week or cwo ac the moat.
And this one we wanted to hurry up and get the work started
on the site. So we would have liked to have gotten it not (
extended, che comment period. But if you people are really
interested in extending the comment period, Just send your
comments or that question to Hector or to me and we have to
put it in with the official record and show it to people who
are our superiors .
A VOICE: If I could get that in before the 29th?
MS, SINCLAIR: Yes. Get that letter in as
quickly aa you can. If we get one letter requesting an
extension it wouldn't be able to change the' whole process
as much as more, you know, as much as probably a group ofrequests.
MR. MOHOLT: The official letter from the borough
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would that have an effect?
MS. SINCLAIR: Maybe an official letter to our
administrator, to Hector,
We do have a law that says we have to allow 21 days
for public comment and 30 days in the draft, We are going
•with the 30 days, ' If you want to extend it, chat is through
a letter to our regional administrator,
i. VOICE; What was your outside neutral consul-
tant?
MS, SINCLAIR: Wait a minute. Please one thing.
We did put the ad in on the 17th. We did get calls on it
already, We have the 30-day comment period. I would like
you to be accurate in your request stating we do have the
30-day comment period.
A VOICE: A thirty day comment period scheduled
now apparently ideas have been brought out — certain as-
pects of the information apparently has not been delved into
as carefully as possible from what I am hearing.
MS. SINCLAIR: Sone new ideas have come up from
Mr. Romano and from Mr. Roberts.
A VOICE; Are you waiting for the state report ?
MR. MOLHOLT: We' anticipate the' state report by
June 29th.
A VOICE: Yes. we will be definitely finished
by June 29th,
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93
A VOICE; My only question was or maybe I am
wrong, Was your outside neutral consultant, was it a
requirement in the contract between EPA and him to have
held something like this much earlier on?
MS, SINCLAIR; Someching like what?
A VOICE: Like here tonight.
MS. SINCLAIR; Public meeting?
A VOICE: Yeah. It seems like it was done in
a vacuum,
MS, SINCLAIR: Nothing was done in a vacuum.
We put an ad which cost a considerable amount of money in
Che ad. And I received a considerable amount of calls.
A VOICE: What I an saying, wouldn't it have been
better if we had this meeting a year ago and talked to your,
consultant?
MS. SINCLAIR; Well —
A VOICE: He should have been taking what we
got here and looking at that and then putting it into his
report.
MS. SINCLAIR: He cane to our last meeting that
we had and looked at the vitrifix and we have all that docu-
mentation, not Just vitrifix; There waa another company we
spoke with.
We did everything we could.
A VOICE; But the big criticism I have gotten
b
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94
over the two year study is why wasn't the public given an
opportunity to talk to your consultant before che report was
typed up? And nobody can seem to give me an answer other
than well, the process isn't set up that way, Who can bet-
ter comment to him than the people who have to live with it?
MS. SINCLAIR: They didn't have anything to com-
ment on until the consultant had a report,
A VOICE: Does he gather facts?
MS. SINCLAIR: Right.
A VOICE; If he never talked to us how did he
gather those faces?
MS. SINCLAIR: Going on the site and collecting
samples, technical data is what we are basing this on. Now
we are asking for public comment. We can't change the way
the process works as far as that goes. We are asking for
public comment on our proposed alternative, We told you if
you want to extend the comnent period, give us an official
letcer co our regional adminiscracor for che excension. That
is something we can't handle from our level and our super-
visor can't handle that either. And number two, we are
asking for all of your comments and by the 29th, If that
is not a good enough date are you sure you 'want it extended?
A VOICE: I an not picking on you three guys.
The public,:, the perception amongst the public is that the
public, I mean you're public employees. You use public noney
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95 cand hire a private consultant, okay, But the public itself
or any interested business person or Interested person with
a technical background was never given a chance co comment
co your consultant, So here we are, it's 11:59 and this
thing goes off at midnight, and now you are asking for us.
It's a little late in the process.
MR. MOLHOLT; This should be looked at as a
framework for discussion, And you should have as much time
to accumulate and discuss all of your public concerns as you
need, That is why we do have this facility for an exten-
sion, But the technical details chat went into chis cook
two years to put together. That is not the time to go out
and gather public opinion during that time. C
If 30 days isn't adequate, what we are trying to do
is, on the other side of the coin, I think there is a little
comment down here why we have taken three years already,
We are under the hip of Congress to get these chings'into
remedial accion as quickly as possible so that any hazard
that might occur in che future might be avoidable.
A VOICE: So what you are saying is nobody in
Che public mighe have access Co a technical point that
would have helped your technical consultant?
MR. MOLHOLT: There were, as we tried to indi-
cate earlier, a lot of negotiations going on with, . ,
(Conversation inaudible — not reportable.)
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96Whether or not these technical solutions were
feasible and if so how much they would cost, These kinds
of negotiations went on,
i Consulting the public as to whether you would prefer
a fence in front of the playground or in back, those types
of things, chat is what we are here right now for, which the
fine tuning of various technical options, and we heard some
new technical options here which I think we're bound and
determined to look at and take seriously.
But again, that should all if it's possible fit into
the next month so that we can get on them with whichever
alternative is appropriate within a timely fashion.
I think you can understand that.
A VOICE: I understand what you are saying. I
am just saying —
MS. SINCLAIR: She has a question.
A VOICE; — it has been the biggest criticism,
We were promised we would have input,
MS. SINCLAIR; You do have input.
A VOICE: But input at the very end,
MS. SINCLAIR: Right. That is when we have an
alternative.
MR. MOLHOLT; Those docunents have been in your
local library for some time and I don't think you've read
then.
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- Lr*A VOICE: I don'c work 40 hours a week in EPA '
offices and read ic, '
MS, SINCLAIR; How can you comment if you don't
read it?
A VOICE; Do we have a copy of that here?
MS, SINCLAIR: It's in the Wissahickon Library,
They are open five hours a day, six days a week,
A VOICE: Well I have difficulty getting there
to spend the hours you need to read them. Ic seems that
another copy ought co be available for us.
MS, SINCLAIR: We can get a borough copy for you.
A VOICE: I thought we were promised a copy.
You are saying we didn't read it, but it's highly difficult
for nine or ten of us to get co che library,
MS. SINCLAIR: We are sending ic —
A VOICE; Do we favor —
MR. SABIA: I am inceresced and chis hasn't been
said before. I would like you Co ask how many people here
live oucside of the Borough of Ambler,
MS, SINCLAIR: Does anybody here?
How many people don'c live in Ambler?
MR. SABIA: I would be interested to know where
they reside if they are here for some other reason —
MS. SINCLAIR; This is a public meeting. It is
open to anyone.
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98MR, SABIA: What I am trying Co get ac is chis
asbestos which was floating around here when I first moved
into Ambler which has been the last ten, IS years, It was
quite prevalent when I moved here. When the winds blew,
they didn't jusc blow to Ambler. They blew to Whitpaln,
they blew co Whice Marsh, Upper Dublin and what I am getting
ac is chat, you know, there is no magic wand around here
Chat this is jusc Ambler's Borough jusc because these piles
are here, When I first moved here and what is here today
are two different things,
I understand your problem and all, but I was Just
wondering if anyone of our neighbors saw fit co come here
to see if Indeed they were in trouble. And apparently they
are noc because the most prestigious secondary school in
this area is they come out here and built right across the
road from it, So they apparently are not worrying about it.
MS. SINCLAIR; It's 9:30 now. I won't stay
here until midnight repeating. What I would like though is
just toroake some points here, that if you want your exten-
sion, like I said, I need an official letter to the regional
administrator, Janes M. S-E-I-F — and anyone else who has
sound technical comments or any comments, excuse me, any
comments at all regarding this Ambler Asbestos site, please
send Chen Co us. I feel Hector and Bruce and I answered all
of your questions as best we could just sitting here this
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99nevening, And che next seep is to see how the decislonmaking
process actually works, If there is some reason for us to
sit down with Dr. Roberts, Hector will be on the phone with
him or our contractor will be on a three-way conversation
with them, and plan a meeting dace.
If Mr. Romano' has items chac he wants Co discuss with
Bruce or Hector, he is going to send all of his comments co
us in writing too. If some point he wants to come in and
meet with us, he can call us, Anything that was said tonight
is going to be repeated because obviously that is what is
going on for the lasc half an hour which if I can gee some
new comments from chose residents here, we would appreciate
it, If not, I would just say that we can adjourn this meet-
ing and then maybe —
A VOICE; My comments are first of all, can we
get a copy of the RFP from your consultant and the name of
the consultant? The reason for my asking that is I know
from the meeting before, there was a considerable amount of
money that was going to be put inco this whole study situa-
tion. I Chink from what I heard, five to ten tons a day is
the description of the equipmenc chac we were given two
years ago to put on the back 'of ehe tractor trailer Co go
co schools and places like chat as a mobile unit to take
asbestos away, And it sounds to me that the consultant, and
I think it should be on the record, that the consultant has
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not in face, goccen chose facts, Now you have agreed to
listen and I chink chat's great, I think that is wonderful
and I am sure that it will happen. I didn't particularly
care for the comment about the person with the vested inter-
est, I chink that when you calked abouc che Izuzu I would
say chac if someone were Co move a pile of scuff and you
were going to use a wheelbarrow ana ! came with a Izuzu,
you would probably want to talk about the guy with the vested
interest because it could be done better and less expensive.
That ia what I Chink you should be looking for,
I Chink your consultant somehow failed to get the in-
formation, and I think that there should be some explanation
as Co why Chat information waa so incomplete with regard to
one of only two options you have because you've already said
the 'first one to do nothing is not an option. And you've
already said that the law prohibits you removing it,
So you had two options that you could viably look ac,
and you've had all this time to do that and the one opclon
in my opinion is totally incomplete and inaccurate from Che
remarks Chac have been — and I am not blaming you people,
You paid taxpayers money. You paid the industrialise money.
The manufacturer's money, but you paid somebody's money to
get information that I feel is incomplete, inaccurace, and
shouldn'c really be looked ac from che standpoint of what
was done, And now I'm happy to hear you are going to listen
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Co some additional information. And I would hope chac che
fact that Dr, Roberts who was che one who came up with this
technology and who didn't come over to America from England
to sell this idea under che free enterprise system. He was
invited by the chen borough manager, who was looking for a
solution Co a problem chat has been here for 40 some years.
So I chink chat inference is incorrect, I think
that Dr, Roberts has a technology, he has the. knowledge and
I am happy you are going to listen to him,
The other part is I really chink chat che consultant
should be brought on che carpec and made co explain.
MS. SINCLAIR: I jusc have one comment to make
to you jusc so you know, I wane Co put this on the record,
Our consultant put cogecher chese remedial accion and
feasibility studies, It might be too time consuming for
people to Cake ic and read ie ac the building, But if you
read that in detail, you would see our consultant didn'c do
a job that wasn't complete. He did a job that we asked him
to do and he did look into every alternative that is listed
there,
Now wesay we will go further than what he has done
and meet with Dr. Roberts. That is the best we can offur
thin evening and after we see and review it —
A VOICE: My queseion was is the RFP available
aa well as Che consultant's name? Ic sounds Co me as
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though you are happy with the Information you got, and I do
not chink I am. And I don't know chat my Congressman is,,
MR, ABREU-CINTRON: The name is on the report.
A VOICE: Okay, fine. Ic would be nice Co know
what it was he was supposed to be finding out,
MR. MOLHOLT; We should send, in view of the
recommendations for how to conduce a remedial investigation
feasibiliey study, and you can see in there what che require-
ments are for any Superfund sice.
A VOICE: And we can gee a copy of that fron. EPA?
A VOICE: Do you communicate with Mr. Self?
MS, SINCLAIR; Yes.
A VOICE: Well ic seems chac Chis excension
should really come as a matter of course. I mean Mr. Sage
suggested we have 13 days and you say you have 30. Thirty
is nothing. You come in say this is che largesc undertaking
you have ever done,
MS, SINCLAIR; No. This is not che largesc,
A VOICE: If I can finish my commenc? Ic is
public discourse like chis thac breeds new ideas not people
individually trotting down Co che library stairs eo look at
three volumes like that, To say they have been there for
people to look ac isn't fair, Really 1C has been only 13
days and you say 1C is che biggest undercaklng ever when
it's really only been 13 days. So chis excension, it seems
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to me should be a matter of course,
103
O
meeting,
MS. SINCLAIR: Thirteen days since che public
MR, ABREU-CINTRON: Unfortunately things turn
out this way, The documents are there and you don't have
to submit all your comments. Ic's food for thought you kno1
But it's been there,
A VOICE: We are sorry to say that we do have
other jobs, We are not, I'm just —
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: I have other sites.
A VOICE: Fine. I cannot take off from work
and spend for me to read that, maybe five or six days. I
cannoc spend that time. I need more cime chan 13 days from
this meecing Co absorb chac kind of information.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Why does ic stare from chis
meecing? Why didn't it start the second day ic was in the
repository?
A VOICE: I can't sit in ehe library, sir, chac
is closed co read that report, If you were chat Interested
for the borough officials co have ic, there could have been
a copy sent to the borough,
.MR. HAYEN: If you are going to do this, why are
you in such a big push? What is 13 days or what is 20 days?
MR. MOLHOLT; There is somebody at the other end
saying why are you taking three years,
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104
MR. HAYEN: No, no, no. We are asking you in
this town,
MR. MOLHOLT: Every community we face we have
somebody standing over us with a whip saying gee ic done as
quickly as possible, Why have you only cleaned up eight
bi.es in five years, We hear chac all the time.
MR, HAYEN; Do ic right, This clme do it right.
MR. MOLHOLT; We hear pressure that we are
Caking Coo long,
MR. HAYEN: You are doing It right. I don't care
how long it takes, You are doing it half ass, It's going
to end up that way,
MS, SINCLAIR: We are not going Co argue over
our contract.
ROBERT SAURMAN: On council. A lot of this is
repeating the same things and I know ic gets very tiring.
But for us as residents chis is where we live. This is our
life in Ambler, I have lived my whole live thus far and
hopefully I will have a number of more years in Ambler.
Unfortunately when I an 90 years old there will be asbestos
piles over there. Understandably you set up a 30-day period
for us to review the material, You are giving us 30 days
to respond to something that will affect us 100 years from
now. Now • we are just having our Centennial now, On our
Bicentennial now you are saying that people will be walking
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105
Butler Avenue past the asbestos piles Chac are scill there.
If there is an alternacive maybe ic will cose more, If we
had an alcernacive chen maybe we should put a little invest-
ment into chat.
I understand we have differences of prices and that
should be worked out, I Chink you have to look ac ocher
fringe benefits as well, For instance, if ic were an iso-
lated problem, fine, cover ic and ic is done. But you have
an asbestos mountain and you have ic all over the country.
Ic has Co be done. When you Cake on a job of Chis size, a
lot of problems Chat are going to come up, A lot of new
solutions generated, New solutions used in the next project
and che nexc project, You don't improve the technology un-
less you go out and test new things and try new things and
cake on new problems.
And something you have to consider is the benefits of
future technology of doing chis Job is going Co help, You
can't put a dollar figure on chac, But 50 years from now
when we finally are getting rid of all chis asbestos in this
country, they can look back and say a lot of whac they
learned at Ambler ...
MR. MOLHOLT: If I can make a proposal. Ic's
a strange thing for me Co do in a meecins like chis. If Ii
can make a proposal since chere are so many people on council
chac have an inceresc in chis from a long term perspective,
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106
and I can certainly understand it, I am the same way, Any
problem that happens in my community which is in Montgomery
County up che road, I propose, I don'c know if there is
Vider your Jurisdiction as council, chac you sec aside
somebody's time for the next couple of weeks to spend half
of their time in the library going over this tooth and nail
and acting as a filter for all of your comments and you chen
do your homework, I think you'll gee chat extension. I
don't see why in the world you can't have a month to do this
and put iccogecher in a package thac is going to be for the
community. This is che best community service you can do,
Put ic together with somebody's technical confidence. I
hope you get in there and actually look ac chis from che
borough's point and give us comments back chae are filtered
through thac.
ROBERT SAURMAN: Thac is a fine suggescion. All
of us have either individual jobs and other individual things
we have Co do,
MR. MOLHOLT: If chis is a real high prioriCy
—
MR. SAURMAN: We have so many other things, al-
though this is crucial, I can't take a week off work and
study the report. I don't think anyone else can afford to
do ic eicher,
MR. MOLHOLT: You have already seen that there
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107
are some clocks running out. If we had chis same type
processing a year ago we might have been moving some things
off site. Things are changing. Options become limited and
so on, We don'c have an infinite amount of time for a num-
ber of proposals, If my suggestion can't be met due to con-
straints on time and budgets and so on, I can understand
chac.
I am Jusc offering chac as a possibility,
MS. SINCLAIR: Can we now adjourn the meeting?
This will be the last question. You are all going to
send your written comments to us,
Mr, Romano, you are going to send your wriccen comments
to us so are you Dr. Roberts, and so is the borough council. /
With request for an extension. And everyone else from che
public, anyone else siccing in Chis room is asked and encour-
aged co also send in their comments.
The only reason I singled out these people, they were
che ones who had the most comments chis evening.
JOHN BROOKS; I am not a resident. I live in
New York. I am here as an attorney.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: What is your inCeresc? Who
are you representing?
MR. BROOKS: In chis meecing who am I represenc-
ing?
I am an attorney with the firm of Richards and O'Nell
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108
in New York and we represent a potentially responsibla
party sued in this case, concerning chis sice.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Okay.
MR, BROOKS: Certain assumptions hare been
talked about of which I'm wondering <f you could clarify for
me. You talked about 1.26 million cubic yards, As I under-
stand that volume metric amount concerns not asbestos, but
the calcium carbonate as well as asbestos; is that correct?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; That is everything, asbestos
and calcium.
MR. BROOKS: So we are dealing really with ten
percent of that figure which is a potential, an alleged po-
tential hazard substance,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Well the way ic's broken down
there are parts of it where ic's cen percent,
MR, -BROOKS: I'm calking in cerms of total
volume.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; What of thac is asbestos of
chat whole volume, 1,26 million is asbestos?
MR, BROOKS; yes, sir. Is che cen percent figure
the figure chac we can work with?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: I would say a little more,
something like 15, 20.
MR. BROOKS: So we are calking about in fact,
abouc not 1.26 million cubic yards of hazardous material but
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109 .
126,000 or so cubic yards?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: It's all mixed in.
MR. BROOKS: According to your report which I
have taken some time co read, apparently Che asbestos which
you alleged is in there is on Cop?
MR. ABR'EU-CINTRON: Yeah. Most of the very high
concentrations are on the top. True moat of ic is on Che
Cop,
MR, BROOKS: So if most of it is on the Cop,
could you direct me where in the report is the recommenda-
tion that the asbestos on Che top be sucked out from the
top as in last in, first out? Rather proposing to this
group of concerned residents the hypothetical fear chac you (
have eo somehow cue into the botcom of chis mountain and
face the concern of the white ooze eating out Ambler as Dr,
Mulholt suggested,
MR. MOLHOLT; Let's firsc just clarify the fact
that the plant pile has asbestos down to 15 foot depth from
the top and Che Locuac Screec pile has asbestos above cen
percent level down to 35 foot depths. So ic is not just con-
veniently something that can be scraped off the cop, I just
want to clarify a misconception. If you read the report,
you muse know the geographical descriptions.
MR. BROOKS: Sir, I am just trying eo ascercain
whether or not all the other facts have been brought out.
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110As I understand it is your position Chat most of the asbestos
is on the cop,
MR. MOLHOLT: In the Locust Street pile you have
above Cen percent —
MR. BROOKS; Sir, that is in a particular sample;
is Chac correct?
MS. SINCLAIR: This court reporter needs a ten
minute break, You have to wait ten minutes. We can restart
the meeting at five of.
Is' chat okay with you?
(Short recess was taken,)
MR. MOLHOLT; As luck would have it, we are back
on the record now, We caucused during the break about Mr,
Brooks question and decided that since this case is under
pending litigation that we really will not be able co enter-
tain your questions since you are not a local resident. And
we would refer you to talk to our lawyer on the case, Lydia
Sails.
MR. BROOKS: I am not asking questions about
the licigation. I am not asking questions — I am not
required Co be a resident.
MR. MOLHOLT: There is no ~
MR. BROOKS: As Ms. Sinclair has stated on che
record --
MR, MOLHOLT: There is no provision for a public
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111
meeting like chis co encercain j'our quescions from a liti-
gate posture representing one of Cho parties,
MR, BROOKS: Sir, I am noc asking you a question
like chat. As a member of the —
MR. MOLHOLT: You are crying Co build up an
administrative record In order Co substantiate your lawsuit,
MR. BROOKS: Sir, I am asking you questions about
something you are putting forward as part of the administra-
tive record, And if what you are telling me now is the rsaso
for che adjournment is to allow you to caucus to make chis
ploy, I am going to resent chis.
MR, MOLHOLT: We are saying on che record we will
noc encercain your quescions ac chis cime.
If chere are quescions from che cicizens, fine.
MR, BROOKS: Unless Chere is an objection from
the citizens, I would like to be able to put my questions
into the record, If you think you have a basis under the
Administrative Procedure Act for noc answering them, chat
is fine with me, But I would suggesc you don'c and therefore
this public hearing is not a public hearing and therefore
we don't have a comment period ac all.
MR. MOLHOLT: Mr. Brooks, we do noc have legal
counsel present. Ic is improper for us Co go on Co build
up a record chac would be used in che courtroom under those
auspices.
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112
Therefore, I refer you and your quescions to either
Mrs, Sails or Co Mrs, Sails' cechnical staff present,
MR. BROOKS: Is ic my quescions or che fact that
I am asking them which you find them objectionable?
MR. MOLHOLT: I find objectionable che fact chac
you are representing a responsible party and you have noc
identified ic,
MR. BROOKS: Turner Null which is now known as
TNNPLC.
MR. MOLHOLT: We are Crying ac chis poinc noc
to build up a record for che courc case. We are trying to
answer questions for the citizens of Ambler concerning Che
proposed remedial alternative,
MR, BROOKS: And I am asking you quescions abouc
the proposed remedial alternative.
MR. MOLHOLT; I sincerely doubt thac you have
at your heart the protection of the citizens of Ambler,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Let's do this. This was
raised between us and I know because I am working on the
case.
Let's hear the questions maybe. But we reserve the
right if we feel, I gueas, if I feel it may in some way harm
the case I basically I will get buck to you with that. Is
that okay? I will refer you to my attorney.
MR. BROOKS; No. I really don'c chink chae is
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okay, I don't think you have chac righc in a public meet- '"'
ing co determine what quescions you are going to answer and
what you are not. I appreciate it, I will ask the question.
If you are not going Co answer chem, don'c answer them. The
chips will fall where chey may,
My quescions .will in fact go to your report which I
have read, And spent some time reading, I am noc going Co
sic here and ask you co explain litigation strategies chac
have been taken. BuC chere are comments in chis reporc
chac do noc concern quote, unquote, che good citizens of
Ambler, but that do concern solely TNN, and surely if you
have a basis to put chae before che cicizens, someone should
have an opportunity Co sec the record straight, i"
If you wane to deny that opportunity co me Conighc,
thac is fine, I would suggest co you chacie is noc consis-
tent with Che Administrative Procedure Act,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; We will answer your ques-
cions.
MR. BROOKS: Thank you.
Technically speaking, sir, how long would ic take for
the slurry calcium carbonate slurry chae is in chere co con-
tinue to solidify to a point where ic is solid? You said
that process is happening naturally,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: You mean entirely? We didn't
look into thac. We just looked into, we saw che event
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114O ' occurring, We saw something we didn't chink ic was occurring
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Ic was something chac was jusc happening naturally.
MR, BROOKS; Is it happening in any sore of pat-
tern such chac it could be described as the outside in or
the inside out?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: It seems to be calcium
carbonate contact with the slag, It actually penetrates in-
side and fills it and then it gets exposed Co the oxygen with
in the pores, seeing the calcium carbonate is over 120 per-
cent saturated when ic gees into slag and cinder outer coac,
ic dries up,
MR. BROOKS: So chen ie would be from che sim-
plistic terms from the outside in?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Exactly. Getting hard inside
Like a skin or someching,
MR. BROOKS; AC Page 1-4 of your report of Che
Wescon Repore and I believe 1C was you, Mayor, who asked and
che concraccor is Roy Wescon — Senator, I'm sorry. Roy
Wescon. Page 1-4 discusses the hazard ranking system, Regu-
latory status,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: First paragraph?
MR. BROOKS; Under .1.1.2.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Yes.
MR.' BROOKS: Ambler was evaluated in June 1984
and received a score of, and the scores are listed. When
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you are calking abouc Ambler, you were calking here abouc
che Ambler Asbescos sices, including Maple Street sices and
che plant dump site?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: It includes the Locust pile,
plane pile, pipe plant pile and the , , ,
MR. BROOKS: Okay.
MR, ABREU-CINTRON: Ic does noc include che
Maple which was once around MCDonalds,
MR, BROOKS; If I understand what you have
written here, the plant dump pile, what is being referred
to as Che Cercainceed pile, chat is primarily composed of
asbestos cemenc pipe off spect dump?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: Yeah. Records show that
Certainteed did, take defective cement pipe, went over
it with a bulldozer and crushed it,
MR. BROOKS: And the basis of thac hazardous
ranking is che presence of asbestos in chose three piles;
is thac correct?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: The basis, the SM and SPC
you see chere came abouc due eo Che effaces of migracion
through air caused by, ac che cime assumed or ac che cime
che Locust Screec plane and Cercainteed, There is a whole
factor chac goes in Chere, I don'c know if you have ever
seen che package, how it is done, There is an equation,
population readings and how close the population is to the
It the page Kilned In this inant it not at readable.**, legible, aslabel, It is due to substandard color or condition oi tht oniginal pagt.
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116sice and you put Chis lone equation and you come up with
chis number, 34,7 and —
MR. MOLHOLT: As a point of Information, how many
quescions do you have, sir?
MR. BROOKS: I don'c think I have more than five
minutes worth,
MR, MOLHOLT: Sounds good,
MR, BROOKS: It might be ten, but I don'c incend
to keep either of us all night,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: But che readings encompassed
the Locust Plane and Certainteed.
MR. BROOKS: Given this RI/FS is specific to
Locust Street and the plant pile and not the Certainceed pile
whac would chat hazardous ranking be for those two sices?
ABREU-CINTRON: Jusc for che Locusc Screec plane?
You mean as ic scands now?
MR. BROOKS; As 1C stood in June of '84.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: I really don'c know.
MR. BROOKS: Is it in that hazardous ranking
package which I have not seen, but I presume you have?
MR, MOLHOLT: No. That is a hypothetical. Ic»
cannot be addressed.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: It looked at everyehing.
I don'c think it can easily — air samples of very stringent
sense. Ic's easy Co read but decermining exactly where 1C
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117 fcomes from -- "
MR. MOLHOLT; It is not 19 points from one
part of che sice and five points for a third, It's noc
divided.
MR. BROOKS: So chere is no breakdown?
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: No, not at all.
MR. BROOKS: You Calked abouc the fact thac
asbestos was placed into, and lee's limit ic since this is
where the RI/FS is limited, into che Locust Street pile and
the plant pile, at some point in time,
Do you know in what form thac asbestos was at the time
it was deposited? I mean are we talking about raw asbestos
fiber? (
MR. BRESNAN; Sir, I am going to interrupt you,
Mr, Bresnan, Assistant Solicitor for Ambler Borough,
Would you please state for the record how your ques-
tions Chac you are asking specifically go Co Che alterna-
tives thac were being brought before the citizenry tonight
as opposed Co your simply laying a foundation for your law-
suit which is how you cautioned yourself as being a repre-
sentative of a party eo che lawsuic?
MR. BROOKS: Sir, I said chac my questions con-
cerned ehe RI/FS, My understanding is thac it is a public
meecing to be held in order Co allow Che public to ask ques-
tions and comment upon the RI/FS.
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The alternatives in che
118
RI/FS as I understand it, are
predicated on a certain set of facts which are found not
only in the one volume of alternatives, but the other four
volumes of the RI/FS.
MR. MOLHOLT: And the entire Superfund legisla-
tion and Congress b.ack in 1776,
MR. BROOKS; Well
MR. MOLHOLT: It
MR. BRESNAN: Is
I am noc asking you abouc chac,
is close,
ic safe co say chac every one
of those yellow slips of paper represents a question we are
going to hear abouc tonight?
MR. BROOKS: Noc
Perhaps instead I could
spend some Cime reading ic so
cuff or oue of che hat. I'm
you if you knew in what form
allegedly dumped or deposited
MR. ABRKU-CINTRON
have to go back Co the office
Off che cop of my hem! I don*
MR. BROOKS: but
cace how?
MR. ABREU-CINTl/lN
I can verify ic, yes. There
and I have eo check.
ac all,
represent eo you chat I did
che queseions are not off the
sorry, I think I was asking
asbestos was at the cime ic was
.
: I can't right now. I would
and check ic out to be exacc,
C know how it was.
you have documents which indi-
: I have co check and see.
might be some documents, yes,
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119MR. BROOKS: Thac will be greac. C
In your report ac Page 1-24 and lacer on again ac
Page 3-1, you calk about the fact chac Turner Null boughc
che site in 1933, Could you cell me, sir, whac information
you have chac suggescs Chat Turner Null boughc che sice ac
anytime?
MR. BRESNAN: That clearly has nothing to do with
the betterment of Ambler or Che options that were presented
Conighc. That can . clearly or plainly be a question
addressed only to your future litigation,
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: I can supply you with docu-
ments necessary.
MR. BROOKS: For the record, let me simply ,
state that Turner and Null never boughc che sice. The Jus-
tice Department hasn't even alleged chac Turner and Null
bought the site, at anytime.
MR. MOLHOLT: May the record reflect the coxico-
logist is leaving. If anybody has health quescions, I'm
here for five more minutes,
Good nighc, Mr. Brooks.
MR. BROOKS; Good nighc, Dr. Molholc.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON: More quescions?
MR. BROOKS; I. chink chac probably is going Co
wrap ie up for now.
MR. ABREU-CINTRON; Any quescions you can again
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120
with a letter in written formal request, send them
to our office,MS. SINCLAIR; Request for documents goes
through the Information Act.Thank you all for coming and please, send your
comments in as we asked over and over tonight.
(Hearing adjourned at 10:15 p.m.)
REPORTED BY:
DEBRA L. PULASKI,CSRReporter-Notary Public
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