is copper really the only option for a

8/11/2019 Is Copper Really the Only Option for A

1/13

Is copper really the only option for a/c & refrig pipework?!

Paul S.Environmental Control Contractor

I've just got back from a client who's suffered a total loss of cooling in their premises, caused entirel bthe theft of all their copper piping e!ternal to the building feeding " split tpe a#c sstems $ and %es, thecut through the pipes releasing all the gas from the circuits&

part from the environmental issue about gas release (and I'll skip getting onto that bandwagon againright now&) the big issues are that a) prices of copper have got so cra* that it's being stolen left right andcentre, and there's little that can be done about it, b) the problem will increase all the while the price ofsuch a raw material rises like it is, c) we don't want to be wasting our time rectifing thieves damage tosstems, onl to have it all repeated again a few months later& +ot when businesses are struggling tosurvive. Insurers will also get wise to this happening, and commercial premiums will go up as well.

here has to be an alternative to using copper pipes to handle high pressure refrigerant. fter all, what dothe manufacturers of portable split tpe units use-& efrigerant has oil in it for compressor lubrication. Sohdraulic lines for all manner of applications contain high pressure fluids / oils. re these not suitable-

Can the connections not be adapted-

0e all aware of the fact that the material copper is best for heat transfer / malleabilit, but to still beusing the same materials for the job of conveing refrigerant gases, "1 ears down the road is notprogress& Someone somewhere has an answer-&

0ith China monopolising the copper supplies worldwide, the problems will surel get worse unless westart looking at other options right now&

0h give the thieves an eas life at the e!pense of our trade, and allowing them to stick 2 fingers up tothe 3$4as egs too&

Comments

5oseph

5oseph .

emodeler at athens solutions

I also would like to see an alternative to the ever rising prices of copper, but as of et I haven't seenan alternatives. he onl thing I can suggest is to run the lines down the wall inside and or cagethe lines and units so the thieves can't readil acess the copper.
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2/13

Paul

Paul S.

Environmental Control Contractor

Pipework is generall run outside for a reason $ it would look awful run on the inside, and theclient wouldn't agree to it& %ou could bo! it in, in metal trunking like the electricians use, and fi!the lids with blind screws, but I've just been advised there is now an alternative to copper piping&luminium tubing with a copper coating on the inside.....%ES&&

'6awson 7ual' is a new tpe of piping, to replace copper. It's currentl onl available in 8#9 to :#; Snerg 6imited

t the end of the da ou cannot just suppl and install without the consent of the client or hisconsultant#specifier so the use has to become wide spread to have an effect and the material has tobe widel available.

%ou are also generall connecting it to machines that are built with copper coils.

derek

derek =.

senior refrigeration engineer at jones lang laselle engineering services

what about the new chiller units running secondar refrigerant ,these will be able to use muchcheaper alternatives

4raham

4raham >.

anaging 7irector at 3reedom >eatpumps

etals # copper are the onl wa of carring around refrigerants im afraid. the refrigerants we usetoda can pass albeit ver slowl through the walls of plastic tubes. =urst pressure etc is irrelevant
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5/13

if the lines are not impermiable to refrigerants.

wh do ou think ou cant bu plastic refrigerant bottles-

=ob

=ob =.

7irector at => Snerg 6imited

In answer to 7ereks ?uestion, I would suppose not. Copper theft is not usuall a problem withChiller installations.

7epending on the chiller the amount of copper is relative. 0e are ears awa from the mainstream

chiller manufacturers replacing copper with a product that has the same reliabilit over the unit lifeccle.

Faamuddin

Faamuddin G.

Sr. Service Professional at rane

raditionall, air conditioning sstems contain round copper tubes inside their heat e!hcangers.>owever, the dominance of copper is under threat from alternative materials, and research isunderwa to improve the technical and economical competitiveness of copper tube technolog.

Pressure$bearing flat copper#allo tubes have been successfull prototped and will soon be on themarket, ensuring that copper is still an invaluable component in the >BC/ industr.

$

$ $.

Paul I >ave recentl joint the group as far as I know their are no alternatives to copper other thenss or titanium the ?uestion I do have a answer for is the option to suppl the customer with splitsstems where we use water lines to transfer over long distance and use heat e! changers at indoor
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6/13

unit to transfer heat or cool medium. these sstem are alread on the marked check the


7/13

lan

lan P.

HG anaged efrigeration Compan suppling hailand Custom built efrigerated displa forhotels,restaurants / e!port.

egarding commercial refrigeration in Supermarkets I see mostl copper being used onCompressor rack piping.Is there an valid reason not to use welded steel piping as sa for e!ample 22 does notchemicall attack the steel, it is cheaper than copper as well...so wh do almost MMA of compressorrack manufacturers use copper piping instead of steel piping on there compressor racks-

5ohnn

5ohnn 6.

anager at E0G Inc.

I am working for a comapn manufacturering fittings, pipes and valves for ir conditioningsstem units.here has been developments of alternative tubes for conventional copper tubes and somecompaniees started to adapt different pipes and the most suggetible alternatives in m opinion aremulti laer pipe and pa82(polamide) coated aluminum pipe.

here're companies selling plain aluminum pipes for a#c sstems and the're hdro, armour, eco..to name a few. >owever, still man people (including a#c manufacturers, installers, distributors)are concerned about the material for it's galvanic corrosive and other factors.

I've attended man tradeshows for hvac/r and I ask for an alternative copper pipe evertime Imeet pe! and multilaer pipe companies but haven't seen an product et e!cept one in Goreawhich I haven't reall investigated and reviewed the test datas mself.

0e've been testing different pipes for several ears now and came to a conclusion that pa82 coatedaluminum pipe is the most suitable alternative so far.

5ohnnjleefl11Jgmail.comlhcJlocuskorea.co.kr
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8/13

Chris

Chris 0.

>ead of ir Conditioning and efrigeration at he 6awton ube Compan 6td

7ear Paul Skeet

In answer to our original ?uestion then es, there is an alternative which is the 6awton 7H6 bi$metalic tube.

he best option for ou is to visit our website, www.lawtontubes.co.uk, click on the C sectionand it will give ou full details of the product and the abilit to download the technical guide forthe 7H6 tube.

In essence it is a thin walled copper tube, seamlessl drawn to an aluminium outer and iscompletel as one, the 2 metals are inseperable. It is currentl available from virtuall an0holesaler in the HG and Ireland (some are stocking and some are buing on the back ofdemand).

It's benefits are that it is lightweight, significantl cheaper than standard copper, ?uicker to installand has virtuall no scrap value due to it being a mi!ed metal. he reason copper is kept on thisinside is so that as far as the refrigerant is concerned it remains an all copper sstem. he tube iseasil bra*ed to itself or to copper or can be connected using 6okring 3ittings.

If ou'd like to give the tube a go then let one of the 0holesalers ou use know and the canorganise through me some 3C samples for ou to trial.

I hope this helps.

Chris 0hite6awton ubes.

7ave

7ave >.

wner, =a rea #C

>ow bout a good alarm sstem, silent alarm,activated b loss of power or charge. he make them, I can't think of the name right know.
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9/13

on

on .

Senior 7irector of Sales at 7ataP

Industr $ bad news on copper prices. organ Stanle is forecasting a rise in copper prices in218". http@##bit.l#89ekFhNcopper

Chris

Chris =.

hvac construction at ECS

an ears ago I saw a plumber painting his copper pipes silver. 0hen I asked him wh he toldme


10/13

uthor at 3undamentals of >BC#

In transport refrigeration sstems (trucks and trailers) the use what looks like a heav dut multi$laer plastic or rubber hose to move refrigerant from the compressor area in the front to theevaporator in the truck bod.. he piping has to be fle!ible because of the application.I have seen itused with 8"9a and 919a. I don't know its name. It is probabl as costl as copper, but that wouldprovide a copper$free alternative.

In the state of 4eorgia in the HS, we greatl reduced the copper theft issue b re?uiring acontractors license to sell scrap copper. 0e also take our picture and get a cop of our diver'slicense when ou sell scrap metal. hat has helped a lot.

obin

obin =.

>BC dvisor#Consultant

I'm with 7aveL resolve the problem of the thieves rather than drive ourselves cra* coming up withsomething the thieves don't want. Eventuall, everthing can have a value, so address the ease oftheft.

efrigerant line conduits with alarm sstems connected to wiring would be a deterent. Pro!imatsensors, condensing unit cages etc. can be used to deter thefts. I like the idea of hanging a humanbod target with a tight grouping of holes in the head and heart area hanging in a window with a

sign readingL


11/13

ichard

ichard >.

E!perienced $ >BC / efrigeration Engineer (=I6E) (3 4as / 7S $Cat8)

his is not a new problem,

Copper pipe has alwas been a ver eas target, even "1 ears ago.. however as the rewards havegot greater for the thief, the task of stealing it has got so much easier because the install price hasbeen driven down..down and down..

nl answer I can see that works is GE I BE% >7 0G to steal it, them thieves willthen move over to the ne!t target. we don't leave the car running with the kes in side then walkawa hoping that it will still be there.. so wh leave the client's copper pipework inviting a greedhief..

%ou have to tell the client the options and wh ...I gave awa a few jobs when I said that an copper fi!ed to the walls was deemed completedworks and client propert.. It turned out I did not win them jobs .. but nor did I have to swallowhaving to find the copper pipe missing before I finished the job.. (thats a fact) it happened toanother contractor.

0e all know if the reall want it - >E% 0I66 5HS GE I and even do so in broad dalight.sad ...but true.. ..

Paul

Paul C.

>BC Sales E!cecutive at 5ohnson Controls

5ohnson Controls and Shell etail HG have trialed li pipe and eflok, 0e have had 811Asuccess on medium temp fridge on 919 and air con on 981, his was tested on a health andsafet issue to stop bra*ing on site. 0e have just taken on contracts for =P and E!!on to use thesame sstem in the HG.

munim

munim .

Process control sstems engineer at Saudi ramco otal efining and Petrochemicals
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12/13

it is great Idea Carter. nbod use these heav dut ulti$laer plastic hoses to move refrigeranton C split units.

ack

ack S.

4overnment 6iaison at Benerg 4roup

I am looking for someone that either manufactures or distributes the dvanced efrigerationConduit (C). none-

7ave

7ave 7.

president

http@##www.stingmarketing.com#multifle!#appl$hvac.html

7ave

7ave 7.

president

Please have a look at the future of C linesets. www.gindepipesstems.com

=en

=en =.

Sales 6ead >eatwave >eating and Cooling
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13/13

rane spine fin tech uses almost all aluminum

3a?ihuddin

3a?ihuddin G.

>ead $ echnical / 7esign $ >BC at +avia echnologies

luminium is the best substitute
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is copper really the only option for a

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