jackson v aeglive - transcripts - june 24th - gordon mathesonsports med-conflict of interest...

7/28/2019 Jackson V AEGlive - Transcripts - June 24th - Gordon Mathesonsports med-conflict of interest testimony

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JACKSON V AEG June 24th 2013 Gordon Matheson

Dr. Gordon Matheson

(Director of Sports Medicine, Stanford University and Conflict of Interest Expert)

Plaintiff's Expert Witness.

(Hearing held in open court prior to jury entering):

Judge:Did yo !ant to tal" to #e$

Mr. Panish:%es, yor &onor. W&at t&e intentions today !ere !as to co#plete aot a&alf an &or of Dr. Earley. &ere !as one estion !&ere !e stopped. Ms. Ca&an !oldli"e to ar*e, and t&en !e'll finis& after t&at. I "no! +d*e finis&ed Mr. ei!e"e. I "no!t&at too" so#e ti#e, so t&an" yo. -t I t&in" ri*&t no! !e +st &ave to &ave ar*#entfro# Ms. Ca&an. S&e !anted to ar*e a specific portion. Do yo &ave t&e transcript$

Judge:&e transcript$ I'# sre I do.

Mr. Boyle:nd also, yor &onor, if yo &ave yor order on earley.
http://teammichaeljackson.com/archives/8530http://teammichaeljackson.com/archives/8530


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Judge:I'# sre I do so#e!&ere.

Mr. Boyle:I &ave an extra copy.

Judge:Well, do yo &ave a copy of t&e order$

Mr. Boyle:%o "no! !&at$ I can *ive yo t&e one pa*e (indicatin*).

Mr. Panish:It's s+ect to t&is.

Judge:/"ay. nd yo can read #e t&e relevant portions$

Ms. Cahan:%es, yor &onor. So t&e testi#ony in estion is at pa*e 001, lines 2 to 023

Question: "As you sit here today, do you have an opinion with regard to Mr. Jackson'slife expectancy"

Answer: "! do."

Question: "And what is that opinion"

Answer: "hat opinion is that the ## there are $ultiple reasons why he could diepre$aturely or have catastrophic conse%uences for his su&stance use and a&use. Andspecifically, the use of propofol, the addiction to opioids, and the synergy &etween$ultiple drugs that he took." and the o&ection was sustained as outside the scope. (utthere are several portions of testi$ony that were designated &y )laintiffs that addressspecifics of his opinion a&out life expectancy and whether he considered certain things.

Judge:&ere #ay e. W&y don't yo point t&e# ot$

Ms. Cahan:So at pa*e 041, for exa#ple 55 and t&ere are n#eros 55 at lines 01, topa*e 046, line 73

Question: "And, sir, what data has &een taken with regard to su&oxone treat$ent andlife expectancy with regard to opiate addicts" and he already expressed an opinion thatMr. Jackson was addicted, to date.

Answer: "*o outco$e, treat$ent definitely saves lives if you can get an individual to onlytake the su&oxone, to fully disclose all of their sources of other drugs, to agree torando$ urine drug screens and +ero &en+odia+epines, &ecause there's a synergisticeffect of &en+odia+epine and su&oxone which also causes pre$ature death. *o all ofthose things, if you have all of those conditions, that can definitely save lives."

Question: "And could it have saved Mr. Jackson's life"

Answer: "!t could have." so that's ust one exa$ple. (ut there, if you're allowing in thetesti$ony a&out what su&oxone could have done, &ut not including the &aselineopinions a&out the effect of drug use, and what Mr. Jackson was addicted to on his lifeexpectancy, it gives a very skewed perspective. And so we think those - lines or soshould &e played for the ury.


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Judge:/"ay.

Mr. Boyle:%or &onor, !&en !e did t&ese desi*nations, !e intended to stay a!ay fro#all t&in*s life expectancy for a cople of reasons. /ne, t&at !e don't t&in" Dr. Earley is alifeexpectancy expert. &ey also &ave an actary !&o !as t&e s+ect of a #otion inli#ine, and +d*e rled t&e actary cold co#e testify aot life expectancy. -t t&at's

really a separate isse. We elieve t&at yor &onor !as correct, t&at t&at !as otsidet&e scope, ecase I focsed #y desi*nations of Dr. Earley on addiction isses, not life5expectancy isses. 8o!, if t&ey're *oin* to rin* ot Dr. Earley &ere, any!ay, &e canrin* ot all t&ese life5expectancy isses. nd I t&in" t&e soxone clip s&e +st read isreally aot soxone, !&ic& is a treat#ent for opioids. It !as not intended to e a life5expectancy clip. If yor &onor does t&in" t&at #a"es it related to t&at, I !ill !it&dra!!&at s&e +st read, also, and t&en t&at !old ta"e it ot co#pletely otside t&e scope.

Ms. Cahan:&ere are several ot&er exa#ples of !&at !as in t&e ori*inal desi*nations.nd, yor &onor, to e clear, !e are *oin* to call Dr. Earley. We do intend to call Dr.Earley to testify in or case, !&ic& is !&y !e conter5 desi*nated +st t&is one, verys#all 55 &e *oes on at len*t& in &is deposition aot life expectancy. We contered +st

t&is one very s#all piece +st to *et t&e aseline ecase t&ere are so #any estions 55

Judge:Can I as" yo, did yo call &i# for t&e prpose of estalis&in* life expectancy$

Ms. Cahan:%es. 9e !as desi*nated as an expert on life expectancy as it relates to seand ase of dr*s, and t&ey did not #ove to exclde &i# on t&at asis.

Mr. Boyle:We, of corse, reserve t&e ri*&t 55 t&ey &ave t!o ot&er people t&eydesi*nated, also, on life expectancy. So at t&e ri*&t ti#e, !e !ill #a"e or #otion onc#lative, if t&ey try to rin* in t&ree experts to tal" aot it.

Ms. Cahan:nd, yor &onor, !e &ave an actary !&o can tal" aot life expectancy,and tales and &o! t&ose !or". Dr. Earley's specialty is addiction, a #edicine doctor.9e's t&e only !itness !e &ave !&o is *oin* to e testifyin* aot t&e effect of Mr.:ac"son's dr* se on &is life expectancy. nd I'd e &appy to *ive yo additionalexa#ples of !&at !as desi*nated.

Judge:Did yo s&o! 55 I'# sorry. Mr. -oyle$

Mr. Boyle:-oyle. 8o prole#. It's #y irt&day today, too.

Judge:on* !ee"end.

Mr. Boyle:&e ot&er references 55 &e's only een &ere for #ont&s.

Mr. Panish:&at's all ri*&t.

Ms. Cahan:%es, yor &onor. ;or exa#ple, at pa*e 077, at line


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Answer: "that ## you're assu$ing lots of different varia&les, and ! think there are othervaria&les, too, for his progress long ter$, like his love for his children. /is dedication tohis children would certainly help." this is ust a couple of a nu$&er of exa$ples. he life#expectancy issue ca$e out throughout and wasn't designated, and ust these - lines,and they can cross hi$ on it when he co$es to testify live. ! do think it's necessary to set

the stage for the ## and get the proper context for the testi$ony designated.

Mr. Boyle:Well, yor &onor, a*ain, !&at s&e +st read, I t&in", !as a estion aotaddiction, cold &e *et over &is addiction. %o "no!, t&at !as not intended to elicit anylife5expectancy testi#ony. 8o!, all of t&is said, if t&ey are representin* to t&is cort t&att&ey are rin*in* &i# so !e can properly cross5exa#ine &i# on &is opinion, t&en #yconcern aot t&is ein* played *oes a!ay. -t I need a representation fro# t&e#.

Judge:Well, I t&in" I'll overrle it nless yo !ant to !it&dra! t&e estion. nd if &es&o!s p, s&e can rin* it p, and yo can cross5exa#ine.

Mr. Boyle:I'# confsed. So yo'll contine !it& yor overrlin* of t&eir o+ection$

Ms. Cahan:S&e sstained yor o+ection.

Mr. Boyle:=i*&t. I'# sorry. So yo'll overrle it nless !e !ant to !it&dra! t&eestion$ I'# sorry.

Judge:8o. I'# sstainin* t&e o+ection 55 !ait a #inte.

Ms. Cahan:%or &onor, if yo !ere to allo! t&e testi#ony 55

Mr. Panish:Mst &ave een a *ood !ee"end.

Ms. Cahan:%or &onor, t&is !as a conter5desi*nation t&at defendants #ade. Plaintiffso+ected, and t&e o+ection !as sstained. So as of no!, t&at s#all piece of testi#ony isnot *oin* to e played.

Judge:/"ay. I'# *oin* to overrle it, t&en, nless t&ey !ant to !it&dra!.

Mr. Panish:Well, !e !it&dra! t&at ot&er portion.

Mr. Boyle:%ea&. We !ill !it&dra! t&at ot&er portion.

Judge:/"ay. So t&ey !it&dra! it, so 55

Ms. Cahan:/"ay. So yo !ant all t&e varios pa*es and lines 55

Mr. Boyle:%o've only #entioned t!o.

Mr. Panish:&e ot&er one doesn't &ave to do !it& it.

Ms. Cahan:I &ave one, t!o 55

Mr. Boyle:%or &onor, !e can #a"e t&is really easy. We can leave it all in if t&ey're


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*oin* to rin* Dr. Earley.

Ms. Cahan:It's or present intention to rin* &i#. /viosly, it !ill depend on !&at&appens !it& t&e rest of t&e case.

Mr. Panish:We !ant &i# to co#e, so 55

Ms. Cahan:Well, yo spoenaed &i#. nd yo &ad a c&oice to call &i# live or to set&is deposition. &is is !&ere !e all started six !ee"s a*o.

Mr. Panish:We didn't, ecase yo represented yo !ere *oin* to rin* &i# to testify.8o! yo're tellin* s it's only yor intention. So if yo #a"e a representation t&at &e !illasoltely e &ere, t&en yo can play t&at. -t if yo're not !illin* to #a"e t&atrepresentation for s to cross5exa#ine &i#, t&en !e'll pll ot t&e part aot soxone,and it !on't co#e in ecase &e !oldn't e ale to e cross5exa#ined on t&oseopinions.

Ms. Cahan:nd, yor &onor, t&ere !old e five desi*nations t&at !e t&in" !old need

to e re#oved.

Mr. Boyle:/"ay. We !ill *o t&ro*& t&e#.

Mr. Panish:&e ot&er one doesn't &ave anyt&in* to do !it& it. &at &as not&in* to do!it& life expectancy. &e first one, soxone, yes> t t&e second one s&e +st read,pa*e 077 55

Judge:I t&in" t&at one +st said &e !old #a"e a speedy recovery.

Mr. Boyle:=i*&t.

Mr. Panish:=i*&t.

Judge:So I don't t&in" t&at necessarily tal"s 55

Ms. Cahan:So t&e first one is at pa*e 0?6, line


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Mr. Panish:040, line 6. /"ay.

Ms. Cahan:nd t&e next is t&e soxone one !e already discssed. Pa*e 041, line 01.

Mr. Panish:=i*&t.

Ms. Cahan:nd t&at desi*nation ends 046@7.

Mr. Panish:/"ay.

Mr. Boyle:We'll ta"e t&at one ot, too.

Ms. Cahan:/"ay. nd t&en pa*e 07?, line 01.

Mr. Panish:9old on.

Ms. Cahan:Aestion is3 "*ir, ! want to talk a&out prognosis. And is it a fair state$entthat in order to give a full prognosis of so$ething like so$eone's life expectancy, it's

helpful if you were a&le to actually $eet the person"

Mr. Panish:W&ere does t&at end$

Ms. Cahan:nd t&at *oes 55 !ell, I t&in" t&ere's +st a portion of t&e desi*nation, so t&atproaly *oes to pa*e 074, line


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Mr. Panish:We're *oin* to do t&at ri*&t t&is second. nd ot&er t&an t&at 55 oviosly,!as t&at one of #y red ones t&at initially started t&is !&ole t&in*$

Ms. Cahan:&at !as not inclded in #y crrent edit. nd, yor &onor, *oin* for!ard,!e !ill e 55

Mr. Boyle:nd I a*reed earlier today to sit do!n and sort of tal" t&ro*& a lot of t&eseot&er isses !it& ot&er desi*nations, ecase !e don't !ant to ta"e p too #c& of

+d*e's ti#e.

Judge:I !as t&in"in* yo !old, ecase I &ave so#e estion #ar"s, any!ay. Ifi*red yo tal"ed to eac& ot&er.

Mr. Boyle:/n t&e ne!, yes.

Ms. Steins:/n t&e nde cons#ption of +d*e's ti#e, yor &onor, oviosly,Plaintiffs &ave a n#er of experts, and pretrial a n#er of #otions in li#ine !eredirected at certain opinions of t&e expert. &e case la! is fy aot !&et&er !e &ave

to rene! t&ose o+ections a*ain at trial. So for t&e sa"e of t&e record, yor &onor, I'd li"eto rene! #y o+ections to Dr. Mat&eson's testi#ony and say !e do not elieve &epossesses t&e scope and expertise necessary to *ive t&e opinions !&ic& &e offered. Ifyor &onor intends not to revisit any of t&ose #otions in li#ine, !e'd li"e yo to say so!e can stop ta"in* p ti#e. -t ot&er!ise, I !anted to riefly reraise t&e isse to #a"esre yor &onor did not !ant to entertain any additional ar*#ent on t&at.

Judge:If yo feel it necessary to say it a*ain on t&e record, feel free to do t&at. -t Idon't !ant to add ar*#ent to it nless t&ere's so#et&in* ne! yo're addin*.

Ms. Steins:&e one piece t&at is ne! t&at I !old add, yor &onor, is t&at Dr.Mat&eson's testi#ony relates pri#arily to t&e area of conflict of interest. Plaintiffs &ave

elicited a sstantial a#ont of testi#ony on t&at s+ect already. We &eard fro# t&eir#sic expert, Mr. -er#an, last !ee". I elieve t&is is *ettin* a it c#lative !it&Mat&eson's testi#ony. So t&at !old e additional *ronds for o+ectin* to it.

Judge:If I re#e#er, if *ordon Mat&eson is t&e person I'# t&in"in* of, &e's a Stanfordperson.

Ms. Steins:Sports doctor.

Mr. Panish:Sports #edicine, and conflict of interest expertise.

Judge:nd et&ics.

Ms. Steins:%or &onor, &e actally stated &e's not an expert in #edical et&ics*enerally. 9e clai#s &e's an expert in sports #edicine et&ics t not *eneral #edicalet&ics.

Mr. Panish:9e actally estalis&ed t&at !it& Condoleea =ice !&o !as t&e Provost att&e University at t&e ti#e.

Judge:/"ay. I'll overrle t&e o+ection.


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Mr. Panish:/"ay. I t&in" !e're o"ay, +d*e, to *o for!ard.

Judge:Did yo #a"e t&e edits$

Mr. Panish:%ea&. I *ave it to &i#. If t&ere's a prole#, Ms. Ca&an !ill certainly let s

"no!.

Ms. Cahan:I certainly !ill.

Judge:Still !aitin* for t!o +rors.

(rie! pause in the proceedings)

(the jury enters the courtroo")

Judge:Plaintiffs' consel #ay call t&eir next !itness, or are yo finis&in* !it& a !itness$

Mr. Panish:We're finis&in* !it& t&e videotape of Dr. Earley t&at !e started so#eti#elast !ee".

Judge:/"ay. &an" yo.

(a #ideo clip o! Dr. $arly%s deposition is played)

Mr. Boyle:%or &onor, at t&is ti#e Plaintiffs !old li"e to #ove into evidence defenseex&iit 02,0


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Mr. Panish:Stop.

Ms. Cahan:&at !as a conter t&at !as allo!ed in. 0?6 is !&ere !e're stoppin*.

Mr. Panish:/"ay. Bo a&ead.

Ms. Cahan:Can !e re!ind ac" to t&e e*innin* of t&at estion$

Mr. Boyle:Can !e &ave a sidear, yor &onor$

Judge:/"ay.

(Sidear):

Ms. Cahan:&ere !ere a cople of conters t&at !ere allo!ed in, so !e !ere dealin*

!it& t&e desi*nation inconsistency. -t t&at !as a conter5desi*nation t&at !as allo!edin and yo *ys !ere fine !it&.

Mr. Panish:-t t&is is 55 t&is is pa*e 0


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Mr. Putna":%o #ay !ant to loo" to see if t&ere are ot&ers.

Judge:&at's t&e prole# !&en yo "ind of 55

Mr. Panish:I "no!. /n t&e fly.

Judge:/n t&e fly.

Mr. Panish:So t&at's 0


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Mr. Boyle:/"ay. &an" yo.

Mr. Panish:ll ri*&t. So yo etter *o tell &i#, t&en. I don't see anyt&in* else.

Ms. Cahan:So &e +st needs to s"ip t&at.

Mr. Panish:/"ay. ll ri*&t.

Ms. Steins:/ne #ore video edit, and t&en !e're *ood to *o$

Mr. Panish:Well, !e'll see. I t&o*&t !e !ere *ood to *o as it !as.

Mr. Boyle:/"ay. I don't see anyt&in* else. &an" yo.

(ac/ to open court)

(a #ideo clip o! Dr. $arly%s deposition is played)

Mr. Boyle:&at is t&e end of t&e video, yor &onor.

Judge:/"ay. &an" yo. re yo *oin* to call a !itness live$

Mr. Boyle:%es, yor &onor.

Judge:Mr. -oyle$

Mr. Boyle:We are callin* Dr. Bordon Mat&eson. M5a5t5&5e5s5o5n.

Judge:&an" yo. Dr. Bordon Mat&eson, called as a !itness y t&e Plaintiffs, !ass!orn and testified as follo!s3

Mr. Panish:We're *oin* to call Dr. Bordon Mat&eson at t&is ti#e, yor &onor.

Judge:&an" yo. %o #ay e*in.

Direct e&a"ination y Mr. Bloss:

A. Bood afternoon, sir.

. Bood afternoon.

A. W&at do yo do for !or", Dr. Mat&eson$

. I'# a p&ysician.


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A. nd !&ere do yo !or"$

. Stanford University.

A. W&at's yor title at Stanford University$

. I a# a professor in t&e Sc&ool of Medicine> I'# t&e director of sports #edicine> I'# t&e&ead tea# p&ysician> I'# t&e professor in t&e an iolo*y depart#ent. I &ave a fe!.

A. Can yo s##arie for s, please, yor edcational ac"*rond, startin* !it& yorcolle*e nder*radate de*ree$

. I !ent to University in Cal*ary, lerta, Canada, !&ere I did a #edical de*ree. ndt&en I sseently did a p&.D. In exercise p&ysiolo*y at t&e University of -ritis&Col#ia in Fancover.

A. nd yor P&.D. %o *ot at t&e University of ritis& col#ia. nd I ta"e it, y t&e !ay,

t&at yo're Canadian$

. I'# a Canadian.

A. -t yo're livin* crrently in t&e United States$

. %es. I've een &ere


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. &at's &o! t&e ody responds to exercise or t&e loads on t&e ody. W&at &appens,for exa#ple, to t&e &eart and ln*s, #scle, t&e one, in response to p&ysical loads ont&e ody. So, for exa#ple, !&en yo exercise, yo increase yor #scle #ass, yorone density, yor &eart fnction, yor ln* capacity. &ose "inds of adaptations.

A. nd, sir, after yo *radated fro# #edical sc&ool, did yo *et a #edical license,

certificate$

. %es. I received an M.D., yes.

A. nd !ere yo per#itted to practice #edicine so#e!&ere$

. %es.

A. W&ere$

. In canada I practiced initially after I *radated.

A. nd can yo s##arie !&at "ind of !or" yo did as a p&ysician, doctor, in Canada$

. Well, I !as fairly yon*, so I !ent to t&e arctic, and I !or"ed in !&at's no! "no!n asan init settle#ent. ctally, a series of settle#ents in t&e arctic ocean providin*#edical care.

A. Beneral #edical care. nyt&in* in particlar$

. nyt&in* fro# deliverin* aies to loo"in* after ac" pain, yes.

A. nd do yo &ave a 55 yo've een in t&e United States for approxi#ately


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!old e loo"in* after sports tea#s.

A. nd t&at !as tre in canada and as !ell in t&e nited states at Stanford$

. %es, t&at's tre.

A. Can yo s##arie, Dr. Mat&eson, if yo've &ad occasion to !rite any articles in yorprofessional capacity$

. %es. I've !ritten articles, !&ic& is really part of !&at it #eans to e in t&e acade#icenviron#ent.

A. pproxi#ately &o! #any articles$

. lto*et&er, #aye 04.

A. nd do yo serve crrently on any "ind of 55 or in t&e past, since yo've een adoctor, on any oards or co##issions or or*aniations$

. In canada I !as t&e president of t&e canadian acade#y of sports #edicine. In t&enited states I'# a fello! of t&e a#erican colle*e of sports #edicine.

A. Can yo explain +st !&at t&ose t!o t&in*s are$

. &ose are proaly t&e lar*est sports #edicine odies in t&eir respective contries.

A. W&at do t&ey do$

. &e a#erican colle*e of sports #edicine in t&e nited states is ot& a clinical andresearc& or*aniation t&at develops position state#ents, collects researc&, provides

teac&in* and edcational opportnities for people in sports #edicine. It really is proalyone t&e #ost co#pre&ensive sports #edicine odies.

A. nd !e s&old proaly define !&at sports #edicine is, Dr. Mat&eson. W&at is sports#edicine$

. Well, sports #edicine is t!o t&in*s3 one, it's t&e care of at&letes involved inco#petitive endeavors, t it also is t&at area of #edicine t&at is associated !it&p&ysical activity, ntrition and &ealt& and disease prevention.

A. 9o! did yo c&oose to *et into sports #edicine$

. I t&in" it !as a realiation as to &o! li#ited certain treat#ents in #edicine &aveeco#e for a !&ole n#er of diseases. nd !&ile !e can increase perfor#ance in t&eat&letic poplation, !e &aven't really done t&at !it& t&e *eneral poplation, and to eale to do t&at is a !ay of i#provin* &ealt& t&at is otside of t&e typical #edications andsr*ery. &at !as very appealin* to #e.

A. nd crrently are yo involved in anyt&in* relatin* to t&e international oly#picco##ittee$


15/40

. %es. I've developed a standardied exa#ination t&at's *iven efore at&letes areinvolved in sports. We call t&at a preparticipation evalation, !&ic& is a co#pre&ensiveevalation of ody syste#s prior to sport participation. I crrently c&air a *rop for t&einternational oly#pic co##ittee tryin* to ta"e !&at !e "no! in sports #edicine for t&eco#petitive at&lete and transfer it to t&e *eneral plic to redce c&ronic diseases, li"e&i*& lood pressre, &eart disease, and so fort&.

A. nd &ave yo &ad occasion to e an editor or assistant editor of any sc&olarlyplications in t&e #edical field$

. I fonded a +ornal called t&e clinical +ornal of sport #edicine, and I also !as t&eeditor for one called t&e p&ysician and sports#edicine.

A. W&at does it #ean to fond a +ornal$ 9o! do yo fond a +ornal$

. It #eans yo start it. %o *et all t&e pieces to*et&er, t&e plis&in* co#pany, t&e+ornal articles, t&e editorial revie! oard, and create a +ornal, and t&en apply to &ave itindexed 55 +ornals are ran"ed y t&e national instittes of &ealt&, and t&e ran"in* is

called an i#pact factor. So yo try &ard to e t&e very est +ornal so yo can #ove pt&at ran"in*.

A. nd are yo also involved in any "ind of !or" as a p&ysician or 55 in t&e non5profitco##nity$

. I &ave een. I've een on t&e oard of directors of t&e international +stice #ission.

A. W&at is t&at$

. &at's a non5profit or*aniation in Was&in*ton, D.C. t&at deals !it& ndera*e sextraffic"in* and onded slavery and land appropriation in Sot&east sia, frica and India.

A. re yo crrently on any ot&er oards in t&e #edical field$

. I a# on t&e oard of an or*aniation ot of nas&ville called lood3 !ater #ission,!&ic& deals !it& .I.D.S. nd clean !ater in s5Sa&aran frica.

A. W&at do yo do for t&at$

. I'# a #e#er of t&e oard of directors.

A. 8o!, Dr. Mat&eson, I !ant to as" yo a little it aot !&at yo do, actally, atStanford. W&at are yor pri#ary responsiilities at Stanford University$

. I !as recrited to Stanford to start t&e sports #edicine pro*ra#, and t&at still re#ains#y pri#ary responsiility, to #ana*e t&e sports #edicine pro*ra#, !&ic& is to care forStanford at&letes.

A. W&en yo say yo !ere recrited to t&e pro*ra#, !ere yo in Canada at t&at ti#e$

. %es, I !as.


16/40

A. nd in s##ary, &o! did yo 55 !&at cased yo to *o to Stanford$

. I !asn't loo"in* for a +o, t I *ave a lectre in Cape o!n, Sot& frica, and a#e#er of t&e selection co##ittee invited #e to apply, and a year later, I !as atStanford.

A. nd !&en yo !ere ro*&t on at Stanford, !as t&ere so#et&in* in particlar yo!ere ein* as"ed to do$

. Well, Stanford didn't &ave a sports #edicine pro*ra#, so t&e care of t&e at&letes !asreally provided t&ro*& t&e at&letic depart#ent. nd in settin* p a pro*ra#, !e !antedto create a #edical environ#ent t&at provided care. So !e &ad to estalis& everystrctre t&at !as essential to providin* a &i*& ality, co#pre&ensive #edical careenviron#ent.

A. 8o!, Stanford &as a co#petitive sports pro*ra#> is t&at correct$

. %es. It's a very co#petitive pro*ra#, !&ic& #ay not e ovios at first, ecase it's

also a very acade#ic niversity. -t it &as a pro*ra# t&at I elieve, if I ote t&iscorrectly, &as !on t&e director's cp as t&e est division 05a pro*ra# in t&e UnitedStates 06 years in a ro!.

A. nd t&at's across #en's and !o#en's at&letics, ta"in* into accont all t&e differentsports, all t&e different intercolle*iate sports$

. %es. Correct.

A. nd is t&ere 55 do so#eti#es t&e at&letes at Stanford participate in internationalsports activities of one sort or anot&er$

. %es. ;or exa#ple, t&e oly#pic *a#es. I t&in" on t&at front, oly#pic sports, li"es!i##in* and ro!in* and so fort&, in ei+in*, if I recall correctly, Stanford !on


17/40

A. nd can yo *ive s an exa#ple or t!o$

. I *ess #ost recently, andre! lc" *radated fro# or pro*ra# a year a*o and isplayin* in t&e national footall lea*e.

A. ny oly#pic at&letes$

. :enny &o#pson !on 1 #edals. S&e !as a s!i##er at Stanford. &ere is a !&olen#er t&at *oes t&ro*& ti#es, t I !asn't t&ere for all of t&ose.

A. 8o!, &ave yo served eit&er 55 drin* t&e ti#e yo !ere at Stanford or efore, &aveyo ever served as

. ea# p&ysician for a co#petitive sports tea#$

. %es, I &ave.

A. Can yo +st tell s aot t&at$

. I've !or"ed in t&e national &oc"ey lea*e as t&e tea# doctor for t&e Fancovercanc"s.

A. 9o! lon* did yo do t&at$

. ;or t&ree years.

A. /"ay.

. I served as t&e tea# p&ysician for t&e Canadian /ly#pic &oc"ey ti#e for ei*&t years.I've *one to t&e oly#pic *a#es as a #edical officer> I loo"ed after niversity tea#s.

&ose !ere efore I ca#e to Stanford.

A. 8o!, in co#parin* yor !or" as a tea# p&ysician, tea# doctor, and clinical 55 aclinical p&ysician in a #edical practice, &o! does 55 &o! does yor experience in carin*for co#petitive at&letes differ fro# clinical practice ot&er!ise$

. I t&in" t&e i* difference is, in clinical practice, it's yo and t&e patient> !&ereas in 55 ina tea# sitation, it's yo and t&e patient and t&e coac&, t&e ad#inistrator, t&e a*ent, t&e*rop of people involved in t&at. So instead of it ein* a t!o5!ay party, it tends to e at&ree5!ay party.

A. nd it ein* a t&ree5!ay party, if !e 55 a t&ree5!ay relations&ip, does t&at present any

particlar c&allen*es to t&e parties$

. %es, it does, ecase t&e #inte yo &ave a t&ree5!ay party, yo #ay &ave #oret&an one interest t&at's in conflict !it& t&e ot&er.

A. nd t&e ti#e since yo've een at Stanford over t&e last


18/40

needed to deal !it& ri*&t at t&e very e*innin* !&en I ca#e to Stanford to set p t&epro*ra#. nd !e needed to do t&at ecase !e needed to estalis& a policy and astrctre t&at !e !old pt in place t&at !old redce t&e conflict of interest. So I t&in"it's so#et&in* I've spent a si*nificant a#ont of ti#e over t&e last 06 or


19/40

. %es, it is. nd particlarly drin* a *a#e !&en a decision needs to e #ade ic"ly.nd concssions, as yo "no!, do not al!ays &ave really concrete sy#pto#s.So#eti#es t&ey can e so#e!&at va*e, t&in*s li"e diiness, li*&t5&eadedness,!ooiness. So t&at's a very i#portant area !e've !or"ed in over t&e years.

A. Does researc& !it&in yor field s&o! t&at !&at yo've identified as secondary

interests, li"e financial *ain, does t&at &ave an i#pact on #edical decision5#a"in*$

. %es, it does. It's not actally researc& in t&e field of sports #edicine, t t&ere isresearc& in t&e #edical literatre t&at indicates t&at !&en so#eone stands to *ain, itaffects t&eir decision5#a"in*. It iases t&e# in a !ay !&ere t&ey lose t&eir o+ectivity,and t&ey #a"e decisions t&ey #ay not nor#ally #a"e.

A. -t aren't potential conflicts present in any patient@p&ysician relations&ip$

. %es, t&ey can e, correct.

A. W&en do t&ey eco#e o+ectionale$

. &ey eco#e o+ectionale !&en t&e secondary interest, !&atever t&at is 55reptation or #oney 55 eco#es #ore i#portant or &as an nde interest on t&e pri#aryinterest, !&ic&, in or case, is sports #edicine &ealt&.

A. 8o!, !&en yo !ere ro*&t to Stanford, Dr. Mat&eson, did yo pt into place astrctre to try to #ana*e t&ese conflicts of interest$

. %es. We *radally ilt a strctre over a t!o5 or t&ree5year period.

A. nd did yor !or" !it& varios people in t&e Stanford co##nity &elp !it& pttin*t&at strctre into place$

. %es. -ecase !e "ne! t&e University &ad to e stron*ly spported for t&at to !or".

A. nd !&o did yo specifically report to$ W&o did yo !or" !it& directly in settin* pt&e pro*ra# to #ana*e conflicts of interest$

. I !or"ed !it& t&e at&letic director, !&o !as ted leland at t&e ti#e, and t&e president oft&e Stanford #edical center, !&o !as peter van etten, and t&e provost, !&o !as secondin c&ar*e at Stanford. &at !as condoleea rice at t&e ti#e.

A. S&e !ent on to &ave anot&er +o after s&e left t&e Stanford conflict of interestpro*ra#$

. Correct.

A. S&e !as t&e Secretary of State of t&e United States$

. %es.

A. nd did yo &ave occasion to !or" !it& any #e#ers of t&e footall pro*ra# in yorearly ti#e$


20/40

. W&en I started, ill !als& !as t&e footall coac&.

A. Did yo !or" !it& Mr. Wals&$

. %es, I did. I !as t&e &ead tea# p&ysician.

A. Was Condoleea =ice a sports 55 !as s&e interested in t&is isse, t&e conflict ofinterest !it&in t&e sports settin*$

. S&e loved footall. I t&in" &er ote !as, if s&e !as a #an, s&e !old &ave playedfootall.

A. &e 55 Dr. Mat&eson, in +anary of is t&at correct$

. %es. %es, I did.

A. nd do yo re#e#er !&at t&e rate !as t&at yo a*reed to e paid$

. &e rate !as G4 an &or.

A. 8o!, is t&at yor standard rate for testifyin* as an expert !itness$

. I &ave never testified as an expert !itness efore.

A. So &o! did yo arrive at t&at n#er$

. I as"ed so#e collea*es !&o &ad and *ot a *eneral idea of !&at t&e #ar"et rate!as.

A. nd did yo &ave an nderstandin* as to !&at yo !ere ein* as"ed to do inrevie!in* t&e #aterials !&en yo !ere first provided t&e#$

. My nderstandin* !as to loo" at t&e# and *et an 55 try to *et an idea of !&at isses


21/40

!ere at play in t&is case.

A. 8o!, do yo, Dr. Mat&eson, &ave any direct experience !it&in t&e #sic indstry$

. 8o.

A. 9ave yo ever een &ired as a p&ysician for a concert tor$

. 8o.

A. 9ave yo ever een en*a*ed as a contractor for a concert tor$

. 8o.

A. 9ave yo ever !or"ed as an 55 eit&er as or for a pro#oter in t&e #sic indstry$

. 8o.

A. 9ave yo ever !or"ed in any capacity !it&in t&e #sic indstry$

. 8o.

A. Upon yor revie! of t&e #aterials t&at yo loo"ed at, t&e depositions and ex&iits andso fort&, did yo see parallels !it&in t&esports indstry, t&e sports #edicine context, and t&e entertain#ent context$

. %es, I did.

A. Can yo +st s##arie t&ose$

. In s##ary, one of t&e #ost ovios is !&at !e tal"ed aot efore, t&e t&ree5!ayrelations&ip !&ere it's not +st doctor@patient. It's doctor, patient and a t&ird *rop, !&ic&,in t&is instance, is ae*, si#ilar to !&at role a tea# !old play in sports #edicine. ndt&ere's an artist involved &ere si#ilar to an at&lete, and t&ere's a p&ysician involved, so Idid see parallels.

A. nd did yo see parallels !it& respect to t&e actal Mr. :ac"son's expectedperfor#ance in t&is context$

. %es. I t&in" Mr. :ac"son's perfor#ance !as &i*&ly p&ysical, si#ilar in a !ay to !&atan at&lete 55 !&at an at&lete !old do in a perfor#ance or in a *a#e.

A. nd !&at did yo ase t&at on$

. Well, I "no! sports pretty !ell. I "no! a fair it aot p&ysical activity, and t&e loadson t&e ody. nd I've seen videos of Mr. :ac"son.

A. 8o!, Dr. Mat&eson, !&en yo tal" aot conflicts of interest, can yo #easreconflicts of interest n#erically$

. 8o, yo can't.


22/40

A. In ot&er !ords, yo can !ei*& so#eody and find ot &o! #c& t&ey !ei*&, or findot &o! fast t&ey can rn t&e 05yard das&, t is t&ere any !ay, a tale !e can loo" atto say, t&is is a 6, t&is is an 1, t&is is a 7 on t&e conflict5of5interest scale$

. 8ot t&at 55 not in a !ay t&at antifies it t&at ti*&tly, no. &ere are *eneral estions or

s**estions, t not to t&at level.

A. re yo fa#iliar !it& researc& t&at does tal" aot &o! to analye t&e severity ofconflicts of interest$

. %es, I a#.

A. Can yo +st s##arie t&at for s$

. Well, t&at researc& loo"s at t!o factors3 one is, is t&ere an nde inflence$ In ot&er!ords, is t&ere an nde inflence !&ere t&e secondary interest inflences t&e pri#aryinterest$ nd t&e ot&er part of t&at is &o! serios yo are aot t&e conseences, so

t&at if t&is conflict of interest prodces a prole#, !&at's t&e #a*nitde of t&at prole#$nd t&ose t&in*s are3 !&at's t&e vale of t&e secondary interest$ W&at's t&e vale of t&epri#ary interest$ W&at's t&e scope of t&e relations&ip$ So &o! involved are people int&is relations&ip$ W&at's t&e extent of t&e service t&at's ein* provided$ W&at's t&e levelof discretion$ W&at's t&e a#ont of accontaility$ &ose are t&e "inds of isses t&atare raised.

A. Can yo *ive s, #aye, fro# a sports5#edicine context, a cople of exa#ples fro#t&e least severe to t&e #ost severe$

. Well, I t&in" t&e least severe !old e so#eody !it& a very, very #inor in+ry t&at isnot *oin* to prodce s&ort5ter# or lon*5ter# &ealt& prole#s. et's say tendinitis in t&e

foot, and retrnin* t&e# to t&e sport, &as very little ris". o a &i*&er ris" !old e adistance rnner !it& t&i*& pain t&at so#e&o! *ets treated as a adricep #scleprole#, t it trns ot to e a fractred fe#r and reslts in a co#plete fractre. &at!old e a #ean. &e #ost serios cases are t&e ones associated !it& sdden cardiacdeat& related to &ealt& prole#s and t&ose related to nerolo*ical prole#s, sc& as aconcssion.

A. W&ere !old t&e conflict of interest co#e into t&at eation$

. conflict of interest !old co#e in !&ere t&e pressre to participate in t&e sportin*event so#e&o! ot!ei*&s t&e #edical decision to protect t&e at&lete's &ealt&.

A. nd yo #entioned t&e one potential secondary interest t&at can affect #edicaldecision5#a"in*, financial.

. %es.

A. nd are yo fa#iliar !it& researc& t&at descries t&e 55 &o! po!erfl t&at particlarsecondary interest can e$

. %es, I a#. &e literatre says t&at financial interests are 55 secondary interests are t&e


23/40

#ost po!erfl erodin* force in a conflict5of5interest sitation.

A. Dr. Mat&eson, ased on yor revie! of t&e #aterials, t&e depositions, t&e ex&iits,t&e e#ails, and ot&er #aterials relatin* to t&e relations&ip et!een ae* live, Dr. ConradMrray and Mic&ael :ac"son, and ass#in* t&at ae* live &ired Dr. Mrray, do yo &avean opinion as to !&et&er ae* live created a conflict of interest$

. %es, I do. I elieve t&ey did create a conflict of interest.

A. nd +st in s##ary, in !&at !ay$

. Well, I elieve t&at Dr. Mrray &i#self !as conflicted, and t&e pro#ise of pay#ent t&at&e !as to receive, as !ell as &is o!n indetedness. nd t&en t&e contract !asstrctred t&at #ade &i# ans!erale to ae* t also !as 55 cold e canceled if t&e toritself !as postponed or canceled, or &is contract cold e ter#inated. nd t&en I t&in"t&at played ot. W&en Mr. :ac"son's &ealt& e*an to deteriorate, I t&in" t&at conflict ofinterest played ot.

A. nd do yo &ave an opinion, ased on yor trainin* and experience, !&et&er t&econflict yo've descried, in s##ary, !as li"ely to lead to poor #edical decisions y t&edoctor$

. I t&in" in t&is case t&e conflict !as li"ely to lead to poor #edical decisions, yes.

A. ll ri*&t. et's tal" first, Dr. Mat&eson, aot t&e contract as yo've descried it. Is t&atone of t&e pieces of infor#ation t&at yo ase yor opinion 55 !it&dra!n. Did yo rely ont&e !ritten contract, in part, for yor opinions re*ardin* t&e existence and t&e severity oft&e conflict of interest$

. %es, I did.

A. ll ri*&t. nd t&at is ex&iit 2?2. I elieve yo &ave. Copy p in front of yo.

. I do, yes. &an"s.

Mr. Bloss: Can you just 00 i! e can ring it up on the screen.

Judge: 1s this a good ti"e to rea/ since 00

Mr. Bloss: 2hat%s !ine your honor.

Judge: -lthough hen did e start3

Mr. Panish: +:**.

Ms. Steins: 2en to +:**.

Judge: 1 thin/ e can go a little longer. 4ou thin/ you can go a little longer3 5/ay.Go at least '6 "ore "inutes. Sorry.


24/40

Mr. Bloss: 2hat%s !ine.

Ms. Steins: -re e going to 7:** or 7:* today3

Judge: 7:**.

Ms. Steins: 1n that case can 1 as/ !or a rea/ at :'63

Judge: 5/ay. 8egotiated rea/.

Mr. Panish: 9hate#er you ant. :'6.

A. ll ri*&t. Dr. Mat&eson, t&e doc#ents in front of yo, ex&iit 2?2, do yo "no! !&att&is is (indicatin*)$

. %es, I do.

A. nd did yo rely on t&is doc#ent, in part, for yor opinions re*ardin* t&e conflict ofinterest and its severity$

. %es, I did.

A. 8o!, &ave yo ever seen a copy of ex&iit 2?2 t&at !as si*ned y EB ive, Dr.Mrray and Mic&ael :ac"son$

. 8o, I &aven't.

A. Does it #a"e any difference to yo !&et&er, for t&e prposes of yor opinion, !&et&er

EB ive si*ned t&is$

. 8o, it doesn't.

A. W&y$

. -ecase in effect t&e contract !as ne*otiated, and a discssion too" place, and infact I t&in" Dr. Mrray exc&an*ed &is an" infor#ation. I t&in" t&ere !ere p&one calls. It&in" &e !as operatin* nder t&e ass#ption t&at t&e contract !as in force. I elieve onee#ail said t&at &e !as flly en*a*ed in t&e care of Mr. :ac"son. So, no, I didn't 55!&et&er it !as si*ned or not, to #e it didn't c&an*e #y feelin* as to !&et&er t&is !as aconflict of interest.

Ms. Steins: 4our honor 1%" going to oject and "o#e to stri/e so"e o! thistesti"ony as co#ered y judge%s "otions in li"ine on his opinions. 1 thin/ i! heants to assu"e that there as a contract and that Dr. Murray as hired that%sone thing. But it see"s li/e he%s gi#ing an opinion on that suject.

Judge: 9ell o/ay.

Mr. Bloss: 1 thin/ in "y hypothetical originally your honor did include ,assu"e


25/40

the, 00 this is a piece o! e#idence though and 1%" just as/ing hi" i! he relied onthis in part and hy.

Ms. Steins: 4our honor 1%" not !aulting Mr. Bloss%s uestion ut as your honorhas already ruled a physician should not e interpreting the contract. 2hat%s !orthe jury to do ased on your honor%s instructions.

Judge: 1 thought he said he as under the assu"ption that Conrad Murray 00

Mr. Panish: ;ight.

Judge: 00 as !ully engaged. So 1 thin/ it%s under an assu"ption.

Mr. Panish: ;ight.

Ms. Steins: -s long as e%re clear it%s an assu"ption 1%" good. Didn%t soundli/e that to "e so 00

Judge: -re you under that i"pression< that it%s an assu"ption3

2he itness: 4es 1 a".

Mr. Bloss: 2han/ you your honor.

A. 8o!, Dr. Mat&eson, I'd li"e yo to #aye explain !&at it is aot t&is doc#ent,ex&iit 2?2 t&at yo elieve in part created a conflict environ#ent.

. /"ay. Well, I t&in" t&ere are t&ree #ain parts to t&is contract. %o'll notice t&e ter#, ite*an May 0st. -t t&e first ter#, !&ic& is .2, is t&at EB !as *oin* to pay Dr. MrrayG04, a #ont&. &e second is 55

A. et's +st pase on t&at for a #o#ent, and !e'll *et to t&e second one. W&at is itaot t&is provision t&at yo elieve &elps create a conflict of interest environ#ent$

. Well, it's a lot of #oney to e paid to a p&ysician, particlarly a p&ysician !&o issstantially indeted. My nderstandin* is t&at Dr. Mrray &ad aot G?, in

+d*#ents a*ainst &i#, and ro*&ly GH, in nsecred real estate det. I "no! &e&ad c&ildren, so I ass#e &e &ad ot&er expenses. So t&ere's a co#ination of ein*paid a lar*e s# of #oney and, at t&e sa#e ti#e, really needin* t&at #oney. A. nd didyo revie!, as part of yor preparation to testify &ere today, t&e testi#ony of detective#artine as *iven in t&is cortroo# ac" so#e n#er of !ee"s a*o$

. %es, I did.

A. nd !&at !as it aot 55 did yo rely, in part, on &is testi#ony re*ardin* t&e financesfor yor opinion$

. %es. 9e did a fairly ex&astive revie! of t&e finances of Dr. Mrray, and t&at's !&ere Iactally dre! #y n#ers fro#.

A. ll ri*&t. nd in ter#s of t&e n#ers, !&at is it aot t&ose n#ers specifically t&atyo elieve contrited to t&e conflict5of5interest environ#ent$


26/40

. Well, I t&in" Dr. Mrray needed to e paid a si*nificant a#ont of #oney.

A. W&y$

. -ecase &e o!ed a lot of #oney. nd I t&in" t&at's !&at 55 t&at's t&e conflict for Dr.

Mrray.

A. ll ri*&t. 8o!, if !e pt it in t&e ter#s of !&at yo tal"ed aot earlier, t&e conflictet!een t&e pri#ary interests and t&e secondary interests, can yo +st explain !&atyo #ean sin* t&at particlar estion of Dr. Mrray's financial condition$

. %es. If so#eone is &ired to provide #edical care for a patient or an artist or an at&lete,yo !ant t&e# to e ale to #a"e independent #edical +d*#ents in t&e est interestsof so#eody's &ealt&. If t&ey're conflicted, or if t&eir pay#ent is tied to t&e "ind of !or"t&ey do for a secondary interest, t&at conflict #ay play ot in t&e ality or t&eindependence of t&e decisions t&ey #a"e.

A. nd &o! does t&at apply, *iven t&is particlar contract ter#, and t&en yo also&i*&li*&ted t&e ter#ination provision$ 9o! do t&ose to*et&er i#pact$

. My nderstandin* is Dr. Mrray left &is practice to ta"e t&is +o, t t&e contract t&at&e !as ne*otiatin* !as s+ect to i##ediate ter#ination if t&e s&o! !as postponed orcanceled for any reason. So fro# #y experience, loo"in* at conflicts of interest in#ltiple cases over t&e years, I estion !&y so#eody !old leave t&eir practice for acontract !&ere t&ey cold e ter#inated i##ediately. So to #e, t&at added to t&esi*nificance of t&e conflict of ris" in addition to t&e pay#ent and t&e need for t&e #oney.

A. nd &o! #i*&t t&at conflict lead to ad #edical +d*#ents$

. Well, it can prodce a ias in t&e t&in"in* !&ere t&e doctor !ants to preserve t&at

inco#e at all costs and "eep t&e person, t&e *rop t&at's payin* t&at inco#e, &appy asopposed to payin* fll attention to t&e #edical needs of Mr. :ac"son. &at's &o! t&atcold play ot.

A. ll ri*&t. I t&in" yo #entioned anot&er provision !it&in t&e a*ree#ent, ex&iit 2?2$

. =i*&t. It !as ?.0, !&ic& really indicates to #e t&at t&e doctor is ans!erale to t&eprodcer, ae*

A. nd t&e lan*a*e is !&at's on t&e screen t&ere$

. Perform the services reasonably requested by the producer.

A. W&at is it aot t&at lan*a*e t&at yo elieve contrites to a conflict5of5interestenviron#ent$

. Well, t&at ties Dr. Mrray to t&e prodcer !&en &e's &ired to loo" after Mr. :ac"son's&ealt&. So t&at conflicts t&e doctor in ter#s of !&ic& of t&e t!o interests is pri#ary, and!&ic& of t&e t!o interests &e s&old attend to.

A. Did yo revie! 55 yo revie!ed several t&osand pa*es of doc#ents in t&is case> is


27/40

t&at fair$

. %es, I &ave.

A. re t&ere ot&er doc#ents in particlar t&at yo elieve are i#portant to yorconclsion as to t&e existence and severity of a conflict of interest$

. Well, I t&in" t&e #ost i#portant ones to #e !ere a series of e#ails t&at too" place!it& Mr. /rte*a, Mr. P&illips, Mr. Bon*a!are.

A. /"ay. Is t&ere one in particlar t&at yo !old li"e to start !it&$

. I &ave t&e one !&ere enny /rte*a sends a #essa*e to Pal Bon*a!are :ne 0?t&.ctally, I t&in" if !e start at t&e e*innin* of t&at, t&at's :ne 0?t&.

Mr. Bloss: 5/ay. =or the record your honor that%s e&hiit nos. >>60?* and ?'.

2he itness: 2hat%s correct.

A. So if !e start at t&e first co##nication in t&at e#ail c&ain, !&at is it aot t&atco##nication fro# /rte*a to Bon*a!are t&at yo elieve is #aterial to yorconclsions$

. &ere are t!o t&in*s t&at are ro*&t p in t&at e#ail3 one is t&e &ealt& concernsaot Mr. :ac"son. So let #e read t&ose to yo. Who is responsible for MJ getting

proper nourishment, vitamins, therapy every day? Personally, I feel he shouldhave a top nutritionist and therapist woring with him. So I t&in" !&at Mr. /rte*a ispointin* ot is t&at Mr. :ac"son &as so#e &ealt& concerns t&at need to e attended to.

nd t&e second t&in* in &ere is #ore directly related to conflict of interest, and t&e levelof independence t&at t&e p&ysician &as. It's aot t&ree lines do!n. It says3 !ere yoa!are t&at M:'s doctor didn't per#it &i# to attend re&earsals yesterday$ in ot&er !ords,

t&at see#s to e a srprise to Mr. /rte*a. !re "andy and #ran aware of this?Please have them stay on top of the situation. nd do!n at t&e otto#, it says3Please don$t underestimate the need to stay on top of this. So I t&in" !&at t&at'ssayin* is t&at t&ere 55 it estions !&et&er t&e p&ysician is #a"in* independentdecisions.

A. Well, t&e context of t&is appears to e t&at t&e doctor 55 it says, Were you awarethat MJ$s doctor didn$t permit him to attend rehearsals yesterday> ri*&t$

. =i*&t.

A. nd is t&at 55 in yor experience, is t&at a #edical isse$ In ot&er !ords 55

. &at's a #edical decision. So for a tea#, if !e say t&at t&is player s&oldn't playto#orro!, t&at is a #edical decision ased on !&at !e t&in" is est for t&eir &ealt&.

A. /"ay. nd is t&ere anyt&in* aot t&e response to t&is e#ail t&at yo relied on, inpart, for yor conclsions t&at t&ere !as a conflict of interest &ere$

. Well, t&e response is fro# Mr. Bon*a!are, and it says3 #ran and I havediscussed it already. We requested a face%to%face meeting with the doctor,


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hopefully Monday. We want to remind him that it is !&' not MJ who is paying hissalary. We want him to understand what is e(pected of him. nd to #e, t&at 55

A. ;ro# t&e point of vie! of conflict of interest, &o! do yo interpret t&at$

. Well, t&at very directly relates to t&e intent to control t&e doctor's decision5#a"in* or

professional +d*#ent. So for #e, !&at t&at !old #ean in t&e sports #edicine !orld!old e so#et&in* li"e, !e're in t&e fort& arter of an i#portant footall *a#e, andt&e arterac", t&e est player on t&e tea#, *ets a concssion, and t&e doctor plls&i# ot of t&e *a#e. nd t&e *a#e is an i#portant *a#e. Maye it *oes into t&e postseason, and very i#portant for otainin* ne! recrits next year, and endorse#ents andsponsors&ip possiilities. nd so#eone on t&e tea# says, %o need to *o over to t&atdoctor and re#ind &i# &e !or"s for s, not t&e arterac". t&at sort of says !&at t&at#eans to #e.

A. Us #eanin* t&e tea#$

. %es.

Mr. Bloss: Did your honor ant to rea/ at :'63

Judge: 4es 1 do. 5/ay. Can e do '* "inutes this ti"e3 5/ay. 2han/ you. '*"inutes.

(Brea/)

A. Dr. Mat&eson, !e !ere loo"in* at ex&iit HH451 and I t&in" yo !ere sayin* t&at yosee certain parallels 55 !it&dra!n. Do yo see certain parallels et!een Mr.Bon*a!are's co##nication t&ere at t&e otto# of t&e pa*e and circ#stances yo&ave to deal !it& in sports #edicine$

. %es, I do.

A. nd !&at are t&ey$

. Well, !&at t&e e#ail spea"s to, I elieve, is t&e lac" of independence t&e p&ysician&as, or t&e tea# p&ysician &as, or t&e doctor &as, !&en anot&er party is involved. So t&eexa#ple I !old se, !&ic& !e &ave seen actally fairly often is fro# sports #edicine.&at's !&ere a decision needs to e #ade to retrn so#eone to a sport drin* t&e*a#e. ;or exa#ple, t&ose decisions are difficlt in t&e fort& arter in a very i#portant

footall *a#e !&ere !innin* t&e *a#e is critical, and !&ere re#ovin* t&e player 55 forexa#ple, t&e arterac" 55 cold lead to a loss for t&e tea#. nd so t&e parallel I se tot&is, is in t&at sitation, t&at is li"e t&e tea# o!ner or t&e coac& co#in* to t&e p&ysicianand sayin*, We !ant to re#ind yo t&at yo !or" for s, t&e tea#, not for t&earterac" yo plled ot of t&e *a#e ecase of a concssion. So to #e, it's aparallel. It's actally a very direct parallel.

A. 8o!, is t&at a different type of conflict of interest fro# t&e financial conflict of interestyo tal"ed aot earlier !it& Dr. Mrray in t&e contract, or is it part of t&e sa#e sset$


29/40

. It is part of t&e sa#e sset. Conflict of interest is really conflict of interest. &ere aredifferent cases for it, t t&e reslts can e ad #edical decisions.

A. 8o!, t&e 55 and yo're a!are t&at Mr. /rte*a responded to Mr. Bon*a!are in ex&iitHH451 p at t&e top of t&e pa*e$

. %es.

A. nd is t&ere anyt&in* in t&at particlar co##nication t&at yo considered to e#aterial for t&e prposes of yor opinions$

. %es. &ere is contined co##ent on t&e &ealt& stats of Mr. :ac"son. I'll +st readt&at. )e*55 Mr. :ac"son 55 requires more attention than management. )e needsnourishment and guidance and physical therapy. )e is not in great physicalshape. )e is being slow in grabbing hold of the wor. So to #e t&at's #oreinfor#ation co#in* for!ard in t&e environ#ent as to Mr. :ac"son's &ealt&.

A. nd !&en yo say t&is environ#ent, !&at do yo #ean$. I #ean t&at it is a conflict5of5interest environ#ent to e*in !it&, so as t&is infor#ationco#es for!ard, t&e !ay t&at plays ot depends on !&at t&e environ#ent is li"e.

A. Is t&ere anyt&in* else aot t&is particlar co##nication t&at yo consideredi#portant$

. 8o.

A. 8o!, if I can *o ac" to t&e first e#ail, I !ant to #a"e sre t&at I nderstood yocorrectly. &e 55 on ex&iit HH4510, t&e first co##nication fro# /rte*a to Bon*a!are,did yo 55 !&at context did yo nderstand !it& respect to Mr. :ac"son attendin*

re&earsals did Mr. /rte*a send t&is e#ail$

. &e context !as t&at Mr. :ac"son's p&ysician, Dr. Mrray, &eld &i# ot of a re&earsal.

A. ll ri*&t. nd I'# not sre I &eard correctly, and I &aven't een ale to loo" at t&etranscript. Did yo say t&at t&at s&o!ed dependence or independence$

. Well 55

A. In ot&er !ords, I s&old say t&e decision y t&e doctor, did t&at s&o! &e !as actin*independently or dependently$

. Well, pres#aly, t&e doctor !as #a"in* a decision on !&at !as est for Mr.:ac"son's &ealt&. -t t&e fact t&at it's raised as an isse, !re you aware that he didn$tpermit him to attend rehearsal"rin*s p t&e isse of t&e i#pin*e#ent on t&ep&ysician's independence or independent decision5#a"in*.

A. ll ri*&t. So t&e decision y t&e p&ysician to &old &i# ot of practice, t&at, in and ofitself, !as 55

. Proaly a *ood decision, possily a *ood decision, t it !as an independent


30/40

decision.

A. nd t&en t&e reaction to t&at y Mr. Bon*a!are, !&y is t&at i#portant to yo$

. -ecase it encroac&es on t&e p&ysician's independent decision5#a"in* aility orprofessional #edical +d*#ent. nd so it's an intent to control t&e 55 to redce t&e

a#ont of independence in t&e p&ysician's decision5#a"in* and increases t&e a#ontof control.

Ms. Steins: 1%" going to oject and "o#e to stri/e to the e&tent he says intent tocontrol. 2his itness isn%t uali!ied to gi#e the riter o! the e"ail%s intent.

Judge: 5#erruled.

A. Dr. Mat&eson, I !ant to also +st riefly *o ac" to t&e first e#ail 55 I'# sorry,c&ronolo*ically, t&e last e#ail, Mr. /rte*a's response to Mr. Bon*a!are. t aot t&e#iddle of t&at, t&ere is so#e lan*a*e aot not lettin* &i# slip 55 :ac"son slip. Do yosee t&at$

. %es.

A. nd t&en continin* on, t&e next cople of sentences3 I$m doing all I can every dayto build up his confidence and to create a schedule that will help to ready him andto arrive us at our goals. W&at is t&at 55 is t&ere anyt&in* aot t&at t&at's #aterial toyor opinions relatin* to conflict$

. Well, I t&in" !&at Mr. /rte*a is co##nicatin* is t&e *oal is for t&e tor to *o on, t&es&o! to *o on. nd t&e *oal t&at is ass#ed in t&at is !e can't &ave anyt&in* slip. We!ant to do everyt&in* to #a"e sre !e create a sc&edle so t&at !e can ac&ieve or*oal of t&e tor *oin* for!ard.

A. nd t&at sentence e*ins, We have + days. Is t&ere a parallel !it&in t&e sportscontext t&at yo can 55

. Well, sports are al!ays nder pressre. &ere are sc&edled events t&at #st ta"eplace at certain ti#es, and t&ere's a season t&at needs to e 55 !&ere *a#es are spreadot over t&at season. So t&ere's al!ays a ti#e fra#e *ettin* so#eone ready for a i**a#e, for exa#ple.

A. Did yo nderstand t&e point in t&e re&earsals at t&is 55 in t&is particlar series ofco##nications too" place$ In ot&er !ords, is it t&e very e*innin*, t&e #iddle, t&eend$

. It's to!ards t&e end.

A. nd for t&e prposes of yor opinion, did yo nderstand 55 !&at nderstandin* didyo &ave aot t&e increase in pressre of t&e perfor#ances to!ards t&e end$

. Well, I'# not sre I dre! a direct conclsion fro# t&at, t, oviosly, if !e're


31/40

footall *a#e$

. %es, it does. &e pressre increases as yo *et closer to t&e end of t&e *a#e, forexa#ple. -t t&ose "inds of pressre in sports can occr not only +st in a *a#e, tdrin* a season itself. nd an exa#ple of t&at is t&e "ind of t&in* t&at &appens !&en yo*et a fe! in+ries on a tea#, and yo don't &ave really *reat players ac"in* p t&ose

first5strin* players t&at are in+red. nd it's very possile yo cold !in a cople *a#es,and t&en in t&e play5offs or post5season play, t&ere's a lot of pressre on t&e at&letesin+red to *et ac" into t&e linep.

A. Well, in t&is particlar circ#stance, t&e relations&ip et!een ae* live, Dr. Mrrayand Mic&ael :ac"son, !as t&ere a second5strin* player !&o cold ta"e over if t&e first5strin* player *ot &rt$

. 8o.

A. W&at i#pact does t&at &ave on a conflict of interest$

. Well, if Mic&ael :ac"son !as nale to attend re&earsals or perfor#, t&e s&o! !oldstop co#pletely.

A. nd !&at i#pact !old t&at &ave on Dr. Mrray$

. 9e !oldn't &ave a +o, and &e !oldn't &ave an inco#e.

A. Dr. Mat&eson, did yo also revie! ex&iit


32/40

#edical decision5#a"in*. So p&ysicians s&old e free to #a"e independent #edicaldecisions on !&at t&e est care, est &ealt&care, is. nd t&is *ets at t&e point t&at t&atindependence #ay e eroded.

A. ll ri*&t. 8o!, did yo revie! any evidence as 55 fro# 55 !it&dra!n. Did yo revie!also a series of e#ails t&at !ere laeled trouble at the #ront$

. %es, I did.

A. nd t&ere are #ltiple e#ails t&at &ave t&at lael, are t&ere not$

. %es, t&ere are.

A. re t&ere so#e in particlar t&at yo t&o*&t !ere i#portant for t&e prposes of yorconflict5of interest analysis$

Mr. Bloss: -nd speci!ically re!erring to e&hiit *@ your honor.

2he itness: 4es. 1 thin/ this as an i"portant e0"ail !or "y testi"ony.

A. Start off !it& yor earlier e#ail on pa*e ?$

. %es, if !e can.

A. W&atever yo !ant, doctor.

. &e earliest e#ail is !ritten fro# :o&n 9o*&da&l to Pal Bon*a!are and =andyP&illips.

A. Did yo nderstand !&o :o&n 9o*&da&l !as$

. :o&n 9o*&da&l, I elieve, is a tor director.

A. /"ay. nd !&y is t&is particlar co##nication i#portant to yo$

. It e*ins !it&3 I$m not being a drama queen here. nd I +st !ondered !&y &e !asalifyin* t&ose co##ents. W&y did &e need to indicate t&at &e's not a dra#a eenefore &e delivers !&at is sseently infor#ation on Mic&ael :ac"son's &ealt&$ &en&e *oes on to say3 It was 0enny that ased me to notify you, Mic&ael :ac"son 55MJ was sent home without stepping foot on stage. )e was a baset case. 0ennywas concerned he would embarrass himself on stage or, worse yet, get hurt. 1hedoubt is pervasive. so t&e one part of t&at is t&e co##nication of &ealt& concernsfro# Mr. 9o*&da&l. &e second is, I !ondered !&y &e needed to alify t&ose

concerns, indicated it !as enny !&o s**ested t&ey e sent.

A. Do yo "no! !&ere t&e p&rase as"et case co#es fro#$

. &e as"et case p&rase, I t&in", is a #edical ter# sed in t&e first !orld !ar todescrie adrple a#ptees !&o lost t&eir ar#s and le*s and cold e only carriedarond and re#oved in t&e attlefield in a as"et. I t&in" t&at's !&ere it co#es fro#.

A. nd can yo s##arie !&y yo elieve t&is is an i#portant e#ail for t&e prposes


33/40

of yor opinion$

. Well, i#portant e#ployee of ae* is co##nicatin* infor#ation concernin* Mr.:ac"son's &ealt&. &e infor#ation is trolin*. as"et case is a stron* !ord. dot ispervasive is a fairly stron* p&rase in itself.

A. ll ri*&t. nd if yo contine c&ronolo*ically !it& t&is set of e#ails, is t&e next e#ailfro# Mr. P&illips to Mr. ei!e"e s&ortly t&ereafter i#portant to yo$

. %eS, it is. &at's :ne 06t&. nd it +st si#ply says, We have a real problem here.

A. W&y do yo consider t&at real i#portant for yor opinions$

. I consider it i#portant for #y opinions ecase it tells #e t&at Mr. P&illips reco*niest&ere is a prole# !it& declinin* &ealt& in Mr. :ac"son.

A. ll ri*&t. nyt&in* else aot t&at one$

. Well, t&at reslted in t&e s**estion for a #eetin* ein* set p, t not&in* elsespecifically.

A. ll ri*&t. nd t&ere are a cople of e#ails tal"in* aot settin* p a #eetin*. Is t&ereanyt&in* in particlar aot t&at t&at yo elieve is i#portant$ If yo ass#e t&at t&at#eetin* relates to, y t&e !ay, Mr. :ac"son as opposed to Dr. Mrray, do yo elievet&ere's anyt&in* aot t&at t&at is i#portant$

. 8ot particlarly.

A. /"ay. W&at's t&e next co##nication t&at yo elieve is i#portant for t&e prposesof yor opinion$

. &at's t&e one fro# enny /rte*a to =andy P&illips on :ne


34/40

was feeding him, wrapping him with blanets to warm his chills, massaging hisfeet to calm, and calling his doctor. It ends !it& sayin*3 1here still may be achance he can rise to the occasion if we can get him the help he needs. So t&at'st&e expression of si*nificant #edical concerns.

A. nd did yo &ave an nderstandin* !&et&er Dr. Mrray !as actally en*a*ed 55

!it&dra!n. Did yo &ave an nderstandin* as to !&et&er Dr. Mrray !as on t&e sceneat t&is ti#e, :ne


35/40

. Well, yor estion is, aside fro# a conflict5of5interest environ#ent, !&at !old yodo if 55

A. o #iti*ate conflicts. o redce t&is "ind of prole#.

. =i*&t fro# t&e e*innin* in t&e first place$

A. Sre.

. Well, t&e !ay !e've set it p at Stanford is, !e &ave t&e p&ysician in c&ar*e of t&e&ealt&care. &at's, I t&in", a very i#portant t&in*. &e second is t&at !e &ave t&ep&ysicians e#ployed y t&e University so t&at t&ey do additional !or" and &ave ot&erresponsiilities, li"e teac&in* and researc&, so t&at t&e decision t&ey #a"e for at&letes orretrn5to5play decisions don't affect t&eir inco#e. I t&in" t&at's i#portant. We &ave aseparate facility !&ere t&ere are confidential discssions t&at can ta"e place !&ere t&ecoac& or ot&er a*ents are not in t&e roo#. nd !e &ave re*lar #eetin*s !&ere !ediscss difficlt cases, and if t&ere's any potential for conflict, !e discss t&at. We &ave

#eetin*s !it& t&e ad#inistrative staff of t&e at&letic depart#ent, !it& coac&es, todiscss t&ose specifically. So t&e &ope is !e !oldn't *et too far do!n t&e road of aconflict5of5interest sitation.

A. ll ri*&t. Dr. Mat&eson, is t&ere a response y Mr. /rte*a to Mr. P&illips' e#ail t&atyo considered to e i#portant$

. %es. &e response is aove fro# Mr. /rte*a, and it is t&e contined co##nication of&ealt& concerns. In t&e first line3 I honestly don$t thin he is ready for this. W&ic&, to#e, is a pretty stron* state#ent sayin* t&at t&e artist is not ready to *o for!ard !it& t&etor. 3ased on his continued physical weaening and deepening emotional state,it$s reminiscent of what aren, bush, travis and I remember. 1here are strong

signs of paranoia, an(iety, and obsessive%lie behavior. I thin the very best thingwe can do is get a top psychiatrist in to evaluate him !4!P.

A. ll ri*&t. W&y did yo elieve t&at !as i#portant$

. Well, after Mr. P&illips doesn't really respond, I'll fi*re t&is ot, enny sends 55enny /rte*a sends a #essa*e ac", sayin*, !e &ave so#e real concerns &ere. I !antyo to "no! t&at t&ese are si*nificant eno*& t&at I'# not sre &e's ready for t&is. We&ave to do so#et&in*, is !&at &e's sayin*, in #y #ind.

A. nd yo've revie!ed sstantial #aterials relatin* to t&is case, Dr. Mat&eson$

. %es, I &ave.

A. Did yo see any evidence t&at a top psyc&iatrist !as ro*&t in to evalate Mr.:ac"son$

. 8o, I don't.

A. 8o!, I !ant to direct yor attention to t&e next e#ail, =andy P&illips' response inex&iit 2750 (indicatin*). Is t&at 55 is t&is co##nication i#portant to yo in any !ay, Dr.


36/40

Mat&eson$

. %es, it is.

A. 9o! so$

. Well, t&ere are several t&in*s t&at t&is e#ail says. &e first is t&at Mr. P&illipsreco*nies t&at Mr. :ac"son's &ealt& is declinin*.

A. W&ere do yo see t&at$

. It's t&e t&ird line e*innin* !it& 9e. *)e*55 ein* Dr. Mrray 55 said that Michaelis not only physically equipped to perform and that discouraging him to willhasten his decline instead of stopping it.

A. So fro# a conflict5of5interest point of analysis, !&at does t&at #ean to yo$ W&y ist&at #aterial$

. &at #eans t&at Mr. P&illips reco*nies t&at Mr. :ac"son's &ealt& is declinin*, t t&ep&ysician in t&is case is reco##endin* retrn to re&earsal, in spite of &is declinin*&ealt&, and, to #y nderstandin*, !it&ot a clear dia*nosis or nderstandin* of !&at t&e#edical prole# is.

A. ll ri*&t. So fro# a point of vie! of conflicts of interest, !old a p&ysician #a"e t&atretrn5to5play decision !it&ot findin* ot !&at t&e prole# !as$

. 8o. In #edicine in *eneral, and also particlarly in sports #edicine, !e need adia*nosis to "no! !&at t&e prole# is, and t&erefore !&at t&e treat#ent is efore !ecan retrn so#eone to sport. &at's a pri#ary t&in*.

A. nd yo've read testi#ony in t&is case relatin* to a #eetin* t&at !as &eld after t&ise#ail at t&e carol!ood &ose$

. %es, I &ave.

A. nd specifically, yo've read Mr. P&illips' testi#ony relatin* to t&at #eetin*$

. %es.

A. %o re#e#er Mr. P&illips offerin* any testi#ony aot !&et&er Dr. Mrray provideda #edical dia*nosis for !&at Mr. :ac"son's prole# &ad een$

. I don't elieve t&ere ever !as a dia*nosis.

Ms. Steins: 5jection. Aac/s !oundation the !act that Mr. Phillips doesn%t /nothe diagnosis doesn%t "ean there asn%t a diagnosis.

Mr. Bloss: 1 hope "y uestion 00

Mr. Panish: 9ait. She already ruled.


37/40

Judge: 1 thin/ 1 "u"led.

Mr. Panish: -ll right.

Mr. Bloss: 1 didn%t hear your honor. 1%" sorry.

Mr. Panish: She already 00 did 1 "ishear3

Judge: 4eah you "isheard. 9hat are you going to say3

Mr. Bloss: 1%" saying hat Mr. Phillips relayed testi!ied that Dr. Murray said. DidDr. Murray tell Phillips that there as a diagnosis. 2hat%s hat 1 "eant to say.

Ms. Steins: 4our honor 1 didn%t ha#e a prole" ith the uestion ut theanser as ,1 don%t elie#e there e#er as a diagnosis., 2here is no !oundation!or that no e#idence as to hether Dr. Murray understood hat as going on ithhis patient or not.

Judge: 5/ay. 5#erruled.

A. So !&at else, if anyt&in*, aot t&is e#ail, Dr. Mat&eson, do yo consider i#portant$

. Well, t&e ot&er t&in* aot t&e e#ails, Mr. P&illips reco*nies or ac"no!led*es t&atDr. Mrray is reco##endin* t&at Mr. :ac"son contine to re&earse in spite of declinin*&ealt&.

A. W&y is t&at i#portant to yo$

. Well, !e !oldn't nor#ally pt an at&lete ac" into t&e *a#e !&o &as continin*sy#pto#s or !orsenin* sy#pto#s related to t&eir &ealt&.

A. W&y$

. -ecase pres#aly t&e at&lete is ot&er!ise &ealt&y ot&er t&an !&atever directprole# is *oin* on. nd !e try to i#prove t&eir level of &ealt&, *et t&e# ac" to nor#al,and t&en pt t&e# ac" in t&e *a#e. It !oldn't e in t&eir est interest &ealt&5!ise topt t&e# ac" into t&e *a#e !&en t&eir &ealt& is declinin*.

A. nyt&in* else aot t&is e#ail yo consider i#portant in t&e conflict of interest$

. %es. I t&in" to!ards t&e end of t&at first para*rap&, Mr. P&illips reco*nies t&at conflictof interest is an i#portant isse for a p&ysician. 9e !rites3 1his doctor 55 Dr. Mrray 55

is e(tremely successful 5we chec everyone out6. )e does not need this gig. )e istotally unbiased and ethical. &e fact t&at Mr. P&illips realies t&at is i#portant, to #e,it s**ests t&at &e realies t&e potential for conflict of interest in t&is environ#ent.

A. 8o!, if yo cold pt t&is into so#e type of context. We tal"ed aot conflicts earlier.&at a doctor !&o does not need a *i*, a +o financially, #ay not &ave t&at financialsecondary pressre yo tal"ed aot$

. =i*&t.


38/40

A. 9o! aot 55

. &at's tre.

A. 9o! aot a doctor !&o does need t&is *i*$ W&at's t&e i#pact of financial pressre

on t&at doctor$

. &at &is 55 t&at &e #ay not actally e niased, !&ic& is !&at t&e literatre indicates.9e #ay not e niased, t&at t&e secondary interest #ay affect &is #edical +d*#ent.

A. ll ri*&t. Dr. Mat&eson 55

. &e t&in* t&at I also t&in" is i#portant aot t&at is t&at if Mr. P&illips elieves t&at t&edoctor is not conflicted, t&en t&e decision t&e doctor #a"es #edically #st e a *ood#edical decision. It's not affected y a conflict, so it #st e a *ood #edical decision. It&in" t&at's !&at's co##nicated &ere.

A. nd t&e representation t&at &e does not need t&is *i* so &e is totally niased yoelieve is indicative of !&at, fro# a conflict point of vie!$

. It's indicatin* t&at t&ere's "no!led*e t&at t&ere's a potential conflict t&ere, t t&at'snot t&e case. /r t&e co##nication fro# Mr. P&illips is t&at's not t&e case. So t&ese#edical decisions Dr. Mrray is #a"in* aren't related to a conflict of interest, alt&o*& &ereco*nies t&at t&at's a potential &ere.

A. So t&e !ay yo interpret it for yor prposes of yor opinion is t&at &e reco*nies t&epotential of a financial conflict of interest t clai#s to Mr. /rte*a t&at t&ere isn't one$

. Correct. nd in #y experience in sports #edicine, it's +st si#ply any reco*nition of

t&e potential for a conflict t&at tri**ers action to loo" into it or to investi*ate it.

Mr. Bloss: 5/ay. 1s this a good place to stop your honor3

Judge: 4es. Aet%s do that. :76 to"orro.

Mr. Panish: 2han/ you.

Judge: 2han/ you.

(the jury e&its the courtroo")

Judge:/"ay. et #e as" consel, do yo &ave anyt&in* to#orro! yo !ant #e to rleon, ecase if yo do 55 li"e ar*#ent, for exa#ple$

Mr. Panish:I !as +st tal"in* to Ms. Steins, t I t&in", ased on !&at Ms. Ca&ansaid, &er and Mr. -oyle !ere *oin* to try to co##nicate> ri*&t$


39/40

Ms. Cahan:=i*&t.

Mr. Panish:/n Mr. ei!e"e.

Ms. Cahan:nd t&ere !as one open isse still !it& respect to Dr. ;in"elstein.

Mr. Panish:=i*&t.

Ms. Cahan:W&ic& !as t&at isse of t&e varios &earsay state#ents of Dr. ;orecast.

Judge:/&, t&at's ri*&t.

Ms. Cahan:&at is still an open isse> ot&er!ise, t&at video is ready to e played, and Ielieve t&at's an &or and a &alf.

Mr. Panish:So, yea&, t&e ans!er to yor estion is, t&e first t&in* !old e t&at Dr.;in"elstein, one. nd !e cold co#e all ready on t&at, and &ave it all ready for yo, and*et t&e transcript and t&e isse for yo for t&e ar*#ent. &en on lei!e"e, Mr. -oyle and

Ms. Ca&an !ere *oin* to try to #eet and &opeflly redce do!n anyt&in* t&at yoneeded to rle on at t&is ti#e.

Ms. Steins:-t in ter#s of to#orro!, Mr. -loss, &o! #c& do yo &ave left$

Mr. Bloss:I &ave less t&an &alf an &or, nless Mr. Panis& overrles #e.

Ms. Steins:I &ave so#e!&ere et!een t!o and t&ree &ors at t&is point, I'#*essin*. Won't ta"e a fll day. -t it #i*&t !it& redirect and recross. So I don't "no! ifyo !ant to &ave ar*#ent on t&ose in t&e #ornin* efore t&e +ry co#es in or 55

Judge:&at's !&at I !as as"in*. Maye yo can co#e in a little early.

Mr. Panish:%ea&, I nderstand. W&atever 55 let s 55 !e'll e &ere to ar*e. et sspea" !it& Ms. Ca&an and see !&at !e're 55 !&at's t&e est corse of action.

Judge:W&y don't !e do t&is3 Can I acco##odate 632$

Mr. Panish:We'll co#e at 632.

Judge:If yo're ready at 632, co#e &ere.

Mr. Panish:Sre.

Judge:If yo don't &ave anyt&in*, yo don't &ave to s&o! p.

Mr. Panish:/"ay. ;air eno*&. If !e !ant to ar*e, !e'll e &ere at 632.

Ms. Steins:nd if after revie!in* #y notes, I &ave &ors and &ors of cross, I'll letyo "no!.

Mr. Panish:;ine. W&atever yo need.


40/40

Judge:&an" yo.

(court adjourned until June +6 +*' at :76 a")

jackson v aeglive - transcripts - june 24th - gordon mathesonsports med-conflict of interest...

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