Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 15 DECEMBER 1898

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Postage on Newspapers. [15 DECEMBER.] Attachment, Etc., Bill. 1535

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

THURSDAY, 15 DECEMBER, 1898,

The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

QUESTIONS. RECEl'!'l' Loco"roTIVE BoiLER ExPLOSIONS.

Mr. GLASSEY (for Mr. Maughan) a~ked the Secretary for Railways- - ·

In view of the· recent locomotiYe boiler explosions. will the Government consider, in the interests of public safety, the advisablene::.s of appointing a commission of experts to thoroughly investigate the working of the Locomotive Engineer's Department, and present to Parliament a report of its proceedings?

The SECRETARY l<'OR RAILWAYS replied-

The Government have already decided, on the recom­mendation of the Commissioner for Railways, to ask His Excellency the Governor in Council to direct arr inquiry to be held, under the provisions of 1 he 45th section of -the Railways Act of lt:188, into the causes of the two recent boiler explosions, and into the general question of the inspection of locomotive boiler& on the several railways of the colony.

AsSISTANT TEACHERS AND THEIR PAY. Mr. JUcDONNELL asked the Secretary for

Public Instruction--\Vhat is the number of married assistant teachers

receiiring a salary of £102, £114, and £126 rei>pectively ~ The 'l'HEASURER (in the absence of the

Secretary for Public Instruction) replied-tal One at £103 per annum; (b) eleven at £114 per

annum; (c) ten at £126 per annum.

MINING COMPANIES BILL. On the motion of the TREASURJ<JR, it was

formally agreed- · · That the Honse will, at its next sitting, resolve itself

into a Committee of the 1Vhole to consider the desir­ableness of introducing a Bill to amend the law relating to mining companies.

ELECTIONS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL­WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL.

THIRD READINGS. These Bills were read a third time, passed, and

ordered to be transmitted to the Council for their concurrence.

POSTAGE ON NEWSPAPERS. ;\fr. S;\liTH, in moving-That tbere be laid upon the table of the House copie<

of correspondence which has passed between the Postal Department and newspaper proprietors and others, during the present year, 'vith reference to the opera­tion. of the postage on newspapers-said : This motion has been called "not formal," I understand, because no communication has been received hy the department directly bearing on the subject of postage on newspapers. The only correspondence which has been receiVed h~s, J; believe, been regarding the extra charge

on intercolonial papers. If that be so-and I have no doubt it is-with the permission of the House I shall amend mv motion so that it will include the correspondence which has actually taken place, This extra charge, I understand, acts VPry unfairly towards the Queensland Press, although, of course, it was not intended to have that effect. If, therefore, the JYiinister will allow me I sh:.cll amend my motion so afl to apply to the correspondence respecting the extra charge npon intercolonial papers.

:i'I:Iotion, as amended, put and paw,ed. SALE OF TOWN AND COUNTRY

LANDS. Mr. KIDSTON, in moving-That there be laid on the table of the House a return

showing the area of, and revenue received from, the sale of all town and country lands sold by auction under the Special Sales of Land Act or otherwise in the Southern, Central, and Xorthern divisions of the colony, respectively, in each year since 1891-said : I was much surprised when I understood that "not formal" had been called to this motion, but I have since consulted the head of the department, who has agreed to allow it to go as formal. As it seems that nobody else had any reason to call "not formal," and I understand that the information will be supplied; I have nothing to do but move the motion.

The tlECRl<~TARY FOR AGIUCULTURE: I am anxious to help the hon. member in this matter as far as possihle. The return was put in hand as soon as I indir tted that there would be no objeCtion to it, but it cannot be completed for a few days; in fact, it will take at least a "eek. If the hon. inember wishes for a full return he will know that he will have to wait at least one week, but if he is willing to omit the word "town" it will take a shorter time. The delay occurs owing to the fa0t that there ~tre no finan­cial districts recognised in the Lands Department, so th~t the land has to be picked out along the boundaries to see· what division it is in, and it will take some time to go over a ser-ies of years. I am only saying this sn that the motion may be altered in form. If the hon. member intends to insist upon the return including town lands, he should make it complete by adding stiburt·an lande. He muEt either leave out "town" or insert "suburban." The nwtion is very awk~ wardly worded, and in order to give the hon. member an opportunity of speaking again I shall move the omission of the wurds " town and." I do not desire that the amendment should be carried, as it makes no difference whatever to rue.

Mr. KIDS TON: While I should prefer the return to be c•)mplete, it will serve the purpose for which it is intended if the words "town and" are omitted, n.nd therefore I a!Il quite agreeable that the am~ndment should be nrried.

Amendment agreed to; and motion, a' amended, put and pas,ed. ATTACHMBN1' o:B' WAGES ADOLITIO~

BILL. RESUMPTION oF CmDIITTEE.

Mr. CROSS hoped the Committee would agree to the postpon•"ment of the further con­sideration of the Bill untiln.Her the consideration of Order of the Day No. 8.

'l'he CHAIR\1AN : The Con\mittee cannot do that; but the hon. member mn.y move me out of the chair and obtain leave for the Com­mittee ttl Rit again.

Mr. CROSS moved that the Chairman leave the chair, report pros-ress. and ask leave to sit again. ·

Question put and passed. Th,• House resumed ; and the Committee

obtained leave to sit again at a later hour of the day.

1536 R_eliej jo'r the [ASSEMBLY.] Aged Poo'r.

RELIEF FOR THE AGED POOR. RESUMPTION OF DEBATE.

On the Order of the Day being read for the · resumption of the debate on Mr. J ackson's motion-

That the House is of opinion-1. That the rn·esent system of relief for the aged poor

is capable of much improvement, inasmuch as many deserving aged poor cannot or will not avail themselves of the assistance afforded by asylums, and others only accept snch help by stern compulsion.

~. 'l1hat the Government should introduce legislation providing-for a system of Old Age Pensions, aud thus by Act of Parliament make provision for the deserving aged poor passing their last years in the society of their friends and free from the restraints and monotonY of asylum life. Which stood further adjourned at 7 p.m. on Thursday, 24th November. ·Mr. STORY: At the last adjournment of this

de hate I was speaking on the question. · I had n0 idPa it would come on so early this afternoon, and I do not know that I ha\e <;iven the matter very much further consideration, but my opinion upon it has not altered in any way. I was pointing out that the motion, if carried, would have the effect of making people look .to the State for the assi,;tance which they should them­selves, from all rights of relationship, supply for t~e ;e~ief of ag~d r~latiyes. I. ca_nnot u"!der­i:)vUilf.t uuw peof:He wno nave i'elatlves and are able to live at all can allow those relatives to go into an asylum.

Mr. DANIELS : How about the high-class pensioners we have on the list now? ·

Mr. STORY: They have nothing whatever to ilo with it. They have done a certain amount of work, and I take it the promise of a pension was a part of their pay.

The HmiE SECRETARY : In many instances they have paid for it.

Mr. STORY : In many instances they have at any rate contributed towards their pensions. I am not a be!im·er in the pension· list myself, but it has nothing to do with this question. I am sure the hen. member who introduced this motion has the good of the poor at -heart, but its effect- would be the opposite of what is hope<] from it. Amongst the poor the anxiety to help those related to them is one of the finest traits in the English character, and the effect of this motion would be to interfere with the operation of that trait of character which we are so proud ofin the English nation. It is well known that there are plenty of people in Dun wich at present who should not be there, · but who should be supported by their own relatives. The very wording of the second part of this motion presupposes that these aged poor have friends, and_ yet it' is asked by this motion that the Government-which in the mass includes people who are poor them­se! \'fls-should provide money to cn·able those aged deserving _poor to spend the rf'maipder of their days in the society of their friends. TherA seems to he an id<•a that the Government is a body, or firm, with money at command for all sorts of purposes, but the money to provide pensions for these aged poor )llust come out of the pockets of pe~>ple who are quite as deserving and quite as poor, perhaps, as those they ;tre asked to help. Having been all my life in the colonies, and haYing seen so much hardship in so many ways, and how people help one another, and how, in a few years, conditions change altogether-those .wl3.o have apparently little chance in life work themselves ujJ to good positions, while those who are apparently pro­vided for at the start com<J down-it is very hard tc say who the de"erving poor are, and how they are to be helped except by relief from o'thers who have worked as hard as themselves ancl with better effect. I think this will hav.e a rather

disastrous effect, inasmuch as at a certain age people will look forward to a pension to be pro­vided, not by the State, but by the rest of the population who have to work as hard as ever these aged poor people havP ever worked.

Mr. DuNSFORD: \Vho keeps these people now Mr. STORY: That is the question. \Vho

keeps them, and who should keep them? There should be a strict inquiry made .into the working of Dunwich, and if there arB any patients there with friends able to ke2p them, they should be kept by their relativee. I do not know at wha time of a person's life he loses responsibility-at what time of a father's life he loses responsibility towards his children, and at what time of a child's life he loses responsibility towards his fa· her and mother. Never, I take it. -And if there are any people in Dunwich living on the State with relatives able to support them, they have no business there at all. The few who have no relatives at all, the State is obliged to take chargp of ; but they are very exceptional cases, and I do not think this motion-kindly as it is intended-is a good one for.the aged_ poor them· selves or for the St•tte.

Mr. KIDS TON: As to the first part of the motion-that the present system of relief of the. aged poor is capable of much improYement-I do not think there can be any difference of opinion; it is a rrJatter which any person can recognise. It is perhaps one of the very saddest sights to see an aged man who is in indigent circumstances. The only question there may be any difference of opinion about is whether the Government should introduce legislation on the subject. The PrPmier, referring to the speech of the hon, member for Kennedy, said that if the questioR was as easy of solution as the hon. member appeared to imagine he would -promise at once on behalf of the Government e\·ery assistance to bring about that much desired result. While the matter i~ one not very ea8y of solution, 'it SP·•'ms to me that when the introducer of a motion like this gets the recogni­tion of the other side of the House that the result he is driving at is a deeirable result be has made one very good point, and if, as iR admitted by the Premier, It is desirable to make better provision for the aged poor in the direction indicated, then it seems to me that it is the duty of the Government not simply to say that the matter is difficult, but to get over the difficulty. That is what they are there for. To simply con­fess that the matter is difficult forms no excuse for not dealing with it.

Mr. MoRGAN : What you say is true of the whole House as well as of :Ministers.

Mr. KIDSTON: No. The whole House has not the power of inWative that the Ministry has.

Mr. M oRGAN: Yes, it has. Mr. KIDSTON : It is the special business of

the Government to initiate legislation in this House.

The HO}!E SECRETARY : Ask the hon. member for Clermont.

Mr. KIDSTON : If you ask the hon. member for Clermont, he will tell you th_at it is almosu useless for any hon. member of this House to initiate 'legislation unless he has the support of the Government. •

The TREASURER : Some most important Bills have been initiated- by the other side and carried through.

Mr. KIDSTON : But tl1e Premier did not continue in this strain. He went on to tell us that the hon. member fer Kennedy was very optimistic, and to assure the hon. member that it was impossible to deal effectively with the problem l)e suggested to the House, and he went so far in this line as to misquote a very eminent authority on the matter. He told us that the

Relief for the [15 DECEMBER.] Aged Poor. 1537

poor we should always have with us. He twisted a very ordinary statement of the fact that the poor were present, into a prophecy that we would always have the poor. Now, it is not true that we have the poor with us in (~ueemland in the 19th century at all in the same sen~e in w hi eh it was true in Pa]e,Jtine 1,800 ycars a"O. Though it may be true that there wili always "be difference, in the world, I do not believe' it is true that we will always have the poor with us in the sense in which we have the poor with us to-day. That matter has been remdied to an enormous extent; it will be still fnrther remedied, and I believe this is a step in the nght dicction. He spoke about the eminently useful ine.titution of Dunwich, and some hon. members spoke in the highest strain about Dunv. ich. 'When I first saw Dunwich I thought it was one of the sadclc.t sights I had seen in Queensland.

The Ho>IE t:lEORETARY: Have you been to Goodna?

Mr. KIDSTON: I believe Gooclna is sadder, but I had not seen Goodna at that time. It seemed to me like an island where all the wreck, drift, and .derel.ict of life were washed up, away from. t~err fnend~, away from every kindly assocmtwn.

The HoliiE SECRETARY : And te!I'ptation. Mr. KIDSTON : \Vhere husband was sepa­

rated from wife. Surely it is a very Rad sight when an old couple, at the end of their lives, are separated-wherA they are punished in the most cruel manner for the simple crime of l.Jeing poor! There are many pc·ople who are poor in their old a.ge, not because of 'my fault of theih, but srmply owwg to adverse circumstances. \Vhile it is better to deal with the aged poor in thctt way than not to help them at all, it seems to me a cruel thing to part an old man and woman in their last years, perhaps after they have lived together smce they were boy and girl. The Premier said that he should have been glad to have heard from the hon. mPmber for Kennedy some practical scheme, but it '·as not the business. of the hon. member to pre,,ent an.y cut-and.cJn.ed sc~eme for adopcion by th1s House. HB busmess was to lH·ing the matter be~ore the att;ntion of the country, and more partrcularly berore the attention of tbt. Government, so that they m!,;ht devise some practical scheme. This is a matter which no private member is capable of cle.1ling with. 1t means an enormous expenditure, and I am sure the House would not consider for one moment any scheme involving additional taxation, per­haps to the amount of £100,000 per annum on the initiative of a private member. I was ~ery much amused at the Secretary for Public In­struction, who advised us in this matter to hasten slowly. I had just been reading a d.,v or two before the hon. member spoke '"fter an interval of some thirty yeo.us, a paper by Thomas Paine on an old age pension scheme, written 107 years ago, and during the l:.st half-cvnLury probably no scheme of social reform h.<s l'c'ceivecl so much attention as avsista.nce to the aged poor.

The TREASVRER: \Vas his scheme arloptecl in any country? . Mr. KIDSTON: A scheme has been aclor,tecl m New Zealand-not a very complete scheme-­and attempts have been made in other countrie'1 · ~ut what I am claiming is not that 0ueenslanrl IS so ve ry far behind other countries in this n;atter,as .t!Jat we are not open to the impu'a­tron of cles1rmg to rn·h a matter that had I'Ot been considered. Some of the most eminent statesmen in Europe have investigrtted the matter in various way>, In New Zealand they h.ave actually adopted legislation, giving a pen­sron of 7s. a week to persons over the '""'e of sixty-five who have been in the colonva for twenty-five years. In at least two countries

1898-5B

in Europe-Germany and Denmark-a sort of mixed system has been adopted-not very successfully, I admit-but the system is not a very good one, or in any way suited to the circumstane,:·" of Queenoland. :For anyone to ad vi se this House to hasten slowly in this matter after the history of the subject during the last lOO years, <lnd after the way in which it hns been discus"ed from every pos"ible point of view, is utterly ridiculou:o. I have here a report which was presenteil to the New South \Vales Government in 18D6. Aft.,r giving the matter very full inquir.Y, the committee say-

Your committ;~e have inquired into the matter at con­siderable length, ,, nU, after oarefnlly studying the mass of it1form,-ttion collected in the form of evidence, reports, enactments, and \'vr!tings, they have arrived at the con­clusion that it "is most detdr cble and practicable to esi:.tbli~h tlle following system of old age pensions, by which every person in the community, who is a.bove the ago u.f sixty yea1 :..;, \Vho has been n resident of Xew South \Yules for fift,~eu yenrs, and whose income does not exceed £ ;;9 11er annum, ~'hall be entitled to a, pension of 105. pm· week. when single, while married couple~ should be granted l5s. per week. '!.'hen they made some other recommendations which they considered desirable and practicable; but I need not detain the House by reading further from the report. My contention at present is simply this: That there is scarcely any subject of social reform which has been so fully discussed, particularly during the labt fifty years, Cl.S t.he question of old age pensions ; that it has been examined from every point of view ; that it has be,Jn parti,tlly tried in a number of places ; and that no body of legislators who like to take the needful trouble should have any occasion to want the very fullest information on the .oubject before legielating. The truth of the matter is that ther·e is nevel" any danger of hasty legislation of this kind. Democratic pro­grees in a direction of this sort is always very slow. There may be danger of delay ; but there is never any danger of overhaste, I ren1-•rnber that in 18D6 we pasi:lod in one even~ ing in this Chamber important legislation, and that the other Hou.ce, which was sitting waiting while we dealt with it, disposed of it in five minutes and cent it b'tck to this Chamber. By that ]egi·dntion w,_, disposed of a su1n of money the interest on which would pay 2s. 6d. to every person of sixty-five years of age in Queensland.

The Ho~m SECRETARY : vVhrtt Bill was that? Mr. KIDSTON; Of course, the hon. gentle­

man clots not know ; he was not born then; he is a very innocent young man. But the Secretary for Public In,trucl.ion did not on that occrtsion warn tlw House against the danger of hasty le;;islation. It is only when the poor and the politically help le·; a. e to be bel ped that gentle­men on the other side warn us against hasty l~gislation ; we hear nothing of that sort when some financially powerful or political mstitution is to be helped. One reason for giving, old age pensions is that ·v. e should try to do away with the stigma which attachr; to t'w precec1t system of givi1 g relief. In opposition to that it is urged that the es"cblishment of State pensions would not do away with the stigma. The Cbief J ust.ice of Queensland, V\ ho at the end of his term uf service obtains a pension, is never under any stig1nu. for receiving that pension. A soldier whu has ,,,,rved his country for twenty­one ye:.us, >!1d who drawB a pen-sion, is under no stigma when l1e r, c·cive~ \,hat pension. \Vhy then should a pick-and-shovel man who receives a pension be under nny stigma? Is it not true that a man may serve his country with a pick and shovel ju ,t as well as he may have served it with sword or rifle ? \Ve ha,ve been told that peac~ h"s her victories as well a.·· war. \Vhy then should not peaceful occupations h:we their pensions as well as military occupations? I Pc.rmot

1538 Reliif for the [ASSEMBLY.] Aged Poor.

see why a stigma should attach to a civil p~nsion, any more than to n military pension. There is no stigma in receiving a pension, and there is no stigma or shame in a man being over sixty-five year" of age; but it is always a shame to be poor, whether a person is young or old. That is where the shame ie, and I am afraid that no system that we can devise for helping the poor will alter public sentiment on that matter. So long as men worship wealth, so long as men wor,-hip those men who have suc­ceeded in making money, so long as society looks at the acquisition of money as the end-all and the be-a 1l of existence, it will always be a shame to be poor.

The Ho~rE SECRETARY : Then you will have to change human nature.

Mr. KIDSTON: No, I will not have to change human nature. l'iien have not always venerated money above everything ; it is quite a modern feeling._

The HOME SECRETARY: Yes, and we live in modern times.

Mr. KIDS TON : Yes ; but there are times coming after us when men's ideas as to the object of life will vary considerably from ours. In the meantime my own personal opinion is that it is by no means the highest attribute of a man that he has the faculty of making money.· I think it is rather the meaner and poorer side of his nature. I know men of my own acquain­tance who will neYer make money, and I e•;ti­mate them more highly than I do other men I know who have succeeded in making money, because they haYe what I call the higher side of their nature much better developed than the men who have suc~eeded in making money. At the same time, I r~ccogni,;e quite clearly tlnt r•ublic sentiment at present repro­bate< a man for being poor-considers it always a shame that a man should be poor; and whether we give old age pensions or do not give them, it will not make any difference in that sentiment. So that I do not think that is any argument at all against the proposal to devise a system for helping the aged poor.

Mr. M oRGAN: ·what do you sugger"t?

Mr. KIDSTON: I "ill tell the hon. member by-and-by. It has been said that this system is a gre:tt syst.em of aged poor relief, but I do not think that is what \re should attempt to make it. I look ur•on it rather as a great development of socin,l co-operation-a grent system of State insurance. Our claim is that we have to help the aged poor in some way or another-we are doing it at presAnt, we are so civilised already that we cannot suffer the aged poor to die of want-and that the present system debases the aged poor, and we want a system that will not deba"e. Of course, I know that we have been told that charity blesses him who gives a<• well as him who receives, but my opinion is that charity does not bless him who receives at all.

The HmiE SECRETARY: I would rather take Shakespeare for it than you.

Mr. CRoss: You have misquoted.

Mr. KIDSTON: I know that, but I think Shakespeare was wrong in not applying the say­ing to charity as well as to mercy. Ill the case of charity, the person who is blessed is the per­son who 5iv·•s, and in almost every case the person "h > recei,·es is more or less dearaded. Our idea is to try to do away with this d~hasing sentiment ; to get the community to co-operate in a system of state insurance to which every citizen will recognise that hA contributes.

Mr. M ORGAN: Tax everybody. Mr. KIDSTON: We tax everybody now, but

when people have fulfilled certain condition~

they should receive their dividends. As to whether this pension would be given to those who are wealthy, and as to what other limita­tions might be imposed, they are matters of detail which it is not necessary to consider in di,cussing the general proposition that some such scheme is desirable. \Vben the Government introduce a scheme these matters will come up for consideration. I am taking up more time than I intended, but I ohould like to say a word or two as to the practicability of the matter. l find from the only reliable statistics I can g~t­the census of 1891-that at that date the number of persons in the colony over sixty-five years of age was 5,953, and they formed just 11J per cent. of the whole population. Assuming that that proportion has been maintained in the present population of 484,000, we have 7,250 persons over that age, and as that number may be reduced by about 25 per cent., on account of persons over that age who have not been in the colony the necessary time, and on account of vo>rious other causes, it would take about £141,000 a year to pay a pension of 10s. per week to each qualified individual. Of course, there might be other deductions, as, for inst.tnce, married couples might receive 15s. per week instead of 20s., and persons of over sixty-five years of age who had incomes of £50 per annum from other sources might receive nothing from this fund, because they might not claim it. Of course it will require a very large sum of money, but I notice that in New Zealand the Treasurer calculated that the system would absorb about £100,000 a year, and no doubt he is likely to be better acquainted with the details than I am. At any rate, we will see how it turns out ; but I think we shall want more than that here. We must not forget, either, that the introdudion of this sy"tem would permit of great reductiuns in many of our pre"wnt charities; but I will now show what this mean,; to the working population. To come back to the census of 1891, I find that the population between the working ages of fifteen and sixty-five years was 238,000, or about two­thirds of the total ; and if we aswme that that proportion holds still, with our greater povulation it. will take the contribution frum these people of 1~d. per week each to furnish sufficient funds to pay l'ensions of 10s. per week to those above sixty-fire years of age, who wiil be qualified to receive them. C"n that be considered a financial problem of such a very serious charactei· as to frighten any Government from attempting to deal with it? As a member of an Oddfellows loclge I contribute 1s. 3d. per week for a number of small benefits, and yet this great develop­ment of social co-operation--State insurance­that I advocn,te would necessitate a contri­bution of only 1~d. per week from all our citizens between fifteen and sixty-five years of age. They might pay in any way you choose as a part of the general taxation or in any other way. I am pointing out the small amount which the corr.munity ''· ould have to provide to deal effec­tively with thi,; question of old age pensions ; that there would be no great financial difficulty iR the way, and nothing like a burden upon the peoule. HPre is a way in which it could be pro vided f<lr : The public of Queensland own a pro­perty in tbe Ullearned increase of land values which tbey give to private owners of land. The net unearned increase in the values of properties held by private individuals in Queensland is about £22,000,000, the pesent estimated value of freehold in Queensland being a trifle over £30,000,000. If the people asserted their right to the unearned in­crease which they have themselves created, and only charged 1 per cent. on the annual value, it would provide a fund of something

Reliif for the [15 DECEMBER,] Aged Po01', 1539

like .£220, 000, and ld. in the £1 on the whole .£30,000,000 would give £125,000, which would be an ample fund for dealing with the question of old age pensions. It has besn admitted during the debate that this would be a desirable thing to accomplish if it could be accomplished, ar,d I have tried t., show that some of the objections to the scheme are not really objections. I have shown that financially it wculd not be a large burden on the people, and it seems to me that the devalopment of civilisation it would mean, the evidence of grow­ing humanity it would give, the enormous bene­fit it would confer upon those who had served the State during the beot years of their life, the indignities and small cruelties it would remove from the path of the aged poor and the

·kind of dignity which it wouldgiveto them, would be ample return to the State for the financial sacrifice involved. While I have no hope at all that the Government will introduce legislation upon the subject, I do think they might, by means of a select committee or in some other way, collate and bring under the notice of this House all the available information upon the matter, so that when legislation was introduced members would be able to discuss it from all points of view, avoid the pitfalls and dang;ers that it is possible to fall into in dealing with such a very large matter, and devise legislation that would not be hasty, but legislation which would result in the maximum of good with the minimum of danger and evil.

The HOME SECRETARY: This is perhaps one of the most interesting social questions which couH engage the attention and considera­tion of any Home such as this. l am quite willing to believe that every member of this House approaches this question with an e•trnest desire that something should be done. The difficulties lie in ascertaining what is the proper thing to be done. Before going further I would like to say that so far as the Government are concerned they are in perfec' accord with the resolution, with the excavtion of that part of it which gives them distinct direction. So far as the attitude of the Government towards the question is concerned, it is quite immaterial whether this resolution is carried or not. The carrying of this resolution after what is purely an academic discussion can only be regMded as a pious expression of opinion.

Mr. KIDSTOX: Preparing the way. The HOME SECRETARY: Yes, the dis­

cussion prepares the way. So far as my experience in this House goes-and it will be borne out, I think, by the experience of members who have been longer here than my-;elf-in matters of this sort, where social questions are discu.;sed from an academic point of view, the discussion itself has been generally regurdd as being sufficient for the n,ttainment of the purpose which the hon. member introducing tbe resolu­tion has at heart. But I understn,nd the hon. member for Kennedy desires to preP3 his motion to the point of carrying it-if necessary to a division. I hope there will be no division, because it seems to me that unless the resolution were emasculated and certain lines drawn in the new wording of it, the idea of io is one which everyone may accept, no matter what his views may be with rPgard to the particuhr method by which the scheme is ultimately to be carried out. In support of the view that the matter must necessarily at its present stage be r,urely ac<tdernic, I cannot do better than read a short extract from an able article on this question dealing with this \ ery point, speaking of relief to the a,;ed poor in very e;eneral terms, it says--

Mr. DuNSFORD: What are you reading from ? The HOME SECRETARY: Never mind.

I am giving it not as of any particular value,

but as expressing my own views in better language than I can express them myself-

rro adopt a plan" in principle'1 without any regard to details is literally unmeaning, and the fact th~tt a pro~ posal can only be accepted subject to that condition proves that n contains no priuCiple at all, is based on no reasoned experience whatever. So to accept it is merely to put a good face on ignorance, and to give a vague expres5:ion to a vague desire. Nothing 11:ore. That, I think, sums up the position with regard to a general resolution, such as the hon. gentle­man has introduced, to a nicety. It is useless to say that old age ]Jensions for the poor should be established. \Vhat we have to do is not necessarily to debate qubtions of this sort from an academic point of view-though that has its value-but what the hon. member wonld seek to do as a practical legislator is to give his resolu­tion some practical effect. Then we come to these details of which the hon. member for Rockhampton makes so light. The scheme is made up of those details which he so carefully ignores. .

J\:Ir. KmsTON : I did not make light of details.

'fhe HOME SECRETARY: The hon. mem­ber did. He pointed out theoe difficulties.

:i\Ir. KmsTON : I only said this was not the proper time.

'l'!le HOME SECRETARY: He says these are to be worked. out afterwards, but they are the basis of the whole system.

Mr. G LASSEY : Affirm the principle first. The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. mem­

ber asks a great deal more than to affirm a principle. He asks the House to give a direction to the Government to bring in a scheme for old age pensions, but he admitted himself the diffi­culties in the way. He gives no directions as to what form that· scheme should take. It might be one of half-a-dozPn or of twenty different schemes formulated in different parts of the world, all having their goud points, and all having been found in the opinion of men who have given a good deal of thought to the subject to have very seriuus objections.

Mr. JACKSON: \Vould it be any good for me to introduce a scheme here as a private member?

The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. mem­ber might do "' the hon. member for Clermont has done. He has introduced measures of refornJ. That gives an opportunity of discussing that particular scheme and the merits of it. It is not improbable that the hon. gentleman's schernP would not find favour with the whole of the House, or with the majority of the House ; on the other hand, if the hon. member devoted some year•1 to working it out, studying the q ues­tion from every point of view, it might be pos­silJle that his scheme would commend itself not only to this House but to the country, and it might be adopted. That is a difficulty that a private member has-that he has not at his com­mand possibly the leisure to devote---

Mr. KmsTON : If you got a scheme from heaven and introduced it to this House you would not pass it.

The HO:YlE SECRETARY: I do not know what a scheme frum heaven would be like; I have not been there, and am not in a position to say, but I am sure that if the hon. member for Kennedy introduced a scheme a< the outcome of his views anJ theories on the subject it would receive courte)U~ consideration at the hands of this House, and would be f"irly discussed.

J\Ir. Dul'!Sl<'ORD and Mr. STEW ART': And be voted down.

The HOME SECRETARY: We cannot discnss a scheme the lwn. member has not put before us. He admits himself the difficulties which lie before anybody who attempts to grapple with this question in a concrete form,

1540 Reliif for the [ASSEMBLY.] Aged Poor.

which should bring into being a complete and exhaustive scheme dealing with the whole ques­tion, and without doing, as we are doing, with a certain modicum of sncces:<-introducing a scheme of old age pensions by some administrative action.

Mr. KmsTo~: His contention is that the Government ehoulcl grapple with it.

The HO::VIE SECRETARY: The Govern­ment are prepared to grapple with it, but these things take long :md serious consideration. Thtre are some hon. members, p•.-rhaps, who have not had a large legislative and administrative experience who would decire to rush in bald­headed for the adoption of some such scheme as this without having bad it thoughtfully and carefully prepared-I am not saying that the hon. member for Kennedy is one-and without desiring to have it discussed as it ought to be­that is without having the weak spots pointed out to them. The hon. member for Rockhamp­ton and the junior member for Charters Towers apparently consider it unfair that· there should be any discus,ion in this Chamber which points out to an hon. member the weak spots in any­thing introduced by him.

Mr. D<:NSFOHI>: Not at all. The HO:\lE SECRET~\.RY: Yes. That is

the attitude taken up by some hon. mem­bers. \Ve have to deal with these questions as practical men, and it is by no means fair to the House, or to the majority at all events, to say that no scheme would receive proper and fair discussion, or fair treatment if introduced by any memLer on the other side of the House. Surely hon. members on that side feel a con­sciousness that. they are he~e to do their duty, 8.nd have a des1re to do thmr duty. Have they not sufficient charity to believe that hon. memb,ors on this side are actuated by motives that are at least as elev.1ted as those which pos­sess themselves.

Mr. DUNSFORD: \Ve know what party Go­vernment is ; that they never go into the merits of a rw,Hsure at ;:.dl.

The HOJ\IE SECRETARY: Then J•ossihly we shall be prepared when the hon. member and his friends come over to this side-if ever they do-to know the treatment the minority will receive at their hands-knowing what party Go,·ernment is ::md the "ttitude the majority in their opinion is likely to take up in this House toward; the minority. But I disclnim that altogether. I •ay distinctlv that measures intro­duced into this House, no matter from what side, will receive fair treatment and full dis­cussion. Ar.d hon. membero must not think think that because the weak spots in any Bill or scheme submitted by them are pointed out, that therefore it is in the nature of an ob•trnction of the princiule itself. 'l'he hem. member has made a great point, as ma11y persons do who ad vacate in general terms a scheme for old age pensions of the fact, that there is in realitv no debasement-- ..

lYir. KmsTO;s": No neces•!l.ry debasemen•. The HOME SECRETARY: No necessarv

debasement in the acceptance of pensions such as thesP in the n·tture of reiief ! l take it that that, after all, is what it is. The hon. member spoke of it himself as charity.

lVIr. KIDHTON : No. State assurance was my point of view.

The HO.i'.fE SECRETARY: I shall come to that presently. The hon. member says that there ought to be no debasement. Now, if it is a scheme which is to tax those who are ultimately to recehe the benefits of the svstem, there cer­tainly can be no debasement w l1atever; but the moment you begin to discriminate between the recipients and those pensions-no matter what may be the principle of that discrimination-

there certainly will be-not necessarily what the hon. member calls debasement in the recipients of the relief-buttherewill be a feeling on the p•rt of those who receive it, and on the part of those who witness the receiving of it, that it is charity and nothing more, because it is not contributed essentially by those who reap the benefit.

Mr. KmsTON : The Chief Justice's pension is not contributed by him.

The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. mem­l•er said that there is no debasement in the casE> of a soldier who receives a pension, and in referring to judges-he singled out one, but I prefer to deal with them as a class-he very properly drew no distinction between the pension of a soldier and that which is paid to a judge upon his retirement. Thoce are on a totally different footing from any relief which could possibly be given under any scheme such as the hon. member for,-.,hadowed. Those men are the servants of the State, and it is part of the con­tract that they shall receive pensions under certain circumstances, just as much as it is part of the contract that they shall receive their salaries while they are performing their duties during their period of service.

Mr. KmsTON : This would be one of the con­ditions of citizenship.

The HOME SECRETARY: Assuming that it is a system of State assurance, and that every­one was c<.mpdled to contribute during his early manhood, we will say, it would be all right; bu_t the moment the hon. member begins to dis­criminate-the moment he takes it out of the realm of compulsory State assuranct--he gets into that region in which, necessarily, there is a feeling that it is charity, and nothing more. It is there we come face to face with the peculiar clanger which underlies the whole principle of old age pensions. If yJu discriminate, there is a feeling that it is charity, for the money is then contributed by one c!n"s and received by another. But if there is no discrimina­tion, and everybody is to be entitled to a pension, then, neces,arily, everybody must contribute. If, on the other hand, everybody is compelled to contrilmtf·, then, t·ice VC1'8a, ever:~- body is entitled to his modicum of relief when he arrives at the stipulated age. \Vhat is the result of that? A premium on thriftleesness. Unqm·.tionably it is an encouragement to people to rely upon pensions such as their citizen right would give them, and not make the .necessary provi,ion for their old age. Moreover, it would be an encouragement to their relatiYes not to contribute to their support. That opens up a very large question, and one with which we have already had some experiPnce in this colony. I hold that in any revision of our system for relief to indigent persons, it would be "' fair thing to adopt eome such principle as we have adopted in our Insanitv Act. That Act is administered by an of!icer called the Curator in Insanity, whose duty it is to administer the estates of insane per·oons, and ascertain what their means may be -not only their own means bnt the means of certain relatives. Section 159 of the Insanity Act provides-

If it appears to the em·ator that any patient has not an estate or any sufficient estate applicable to his maintenance, he m:ty make an application in writing-

( a) To the father of the patient; or (bi If the father is dead, to his mother; or {c) Jf the p'ttient 1s a married woman, to her hus~

band; or (d) In other cases to one or more of his or her

children being of the age of twenty-one years or upwards;

for the pa~yment of a reasonable sum weekly, or 1nonthly, or otherwise, for or towards the maintena11Ce, elothing, medicine, and care of such patient. Then there are certain provisions for the enforce­ment of the requisition made by the cnrator. It

Relief for the [15 DECEMBER.] Aged Pwr. 1541'

may be a matter of detail on which I differ from some hon. members, but at all events it is my view that if agea persons are in indigent circum­st::tnces, and require State relief-::tssuming that discrimination is shown in the relief-that first of all those persons' relatives should be c,t!led upon to contribute to their maintenance. I can see no reason why that principle should obtain with regard to persons who have unfortunately become insane and those persons who, per­haps, through some negligence or through dis­sipated habits of their own, have become poor and incapable of earning their own living, or who are unable to earn their own living simply through old age and decrepitude. Surely there is ac; much reason for the State to de­mand assistance from certain near relatives in the one case as there is in the other ! Coming back again to what the hon. member for Rock­hampton has spoken of as State ::tssur;.nce, schemes have been put forward for enforced contributions to funds such as would be required in a scheme of this sort-enforced contributions from wage·earners. It may be assumed that the tax should be in such a form that it would be contributed to -if it was to be done by every­body-by everyone who is in receipt of a certain amount of wages. From my point of. view it would consequently not be a fair thmg to tax property-holders only for the pur­pose of providing the old age pensions. If there is to be a special tax for this purpose it ~hould be in the nature of a deduction from all wages and salaries over and abovtl a certain amount. There are, of course, a~ the hon. mem­ber for Rockhampton pointed out, certain diffi­culties in carrying out any such schema, bnt I believe they are not insuperable., In one of our local statutes dealing with the pearlshell fishery there is a provision that a certain deduction sh::t!l be made from all wages paid to seamen engaged in that ind,tstry, and the .>mounts so deducted go into and form a fnnd for the maintenance of certain hospitals at Torres Strait,,; There is only onesnch ho,pital at present-namely, ::ttThnrsday Island, and that is probably the most flourishing institution of its kind in Queensland, notwith­standing the fact that for some years it had been in receipt of no State endowment, and is now only receiving £1 for £1 instead of £2 for £1 as in the case of other hospitals in .the colony. There is an illustr>ttion of how that might be worked out, not only in regard to hospitals, but in regard to other ochemes.

Mr. ,T ACKSoN: I think you will find that the only solution is to take the money out of the consolidated revenue.

The HOME SECRETARY: Wecannottake it out of the consolidated revenue unless we first pnt it in, and I am inquiring from what source the consolidated revenue may be so augmented as to justify the Treasurer, or any Minister who might have the administration of such a scheme as that proposed, in appropriating the necessary funds for its maintenance.

Mr. J AOKSON : I suppose you have seen the statistics as to the amounts to be obtained under half a dozen ways nf levying taxation 1

The HO~lE SECREI'Al{Y: There have been half ::t dozen or more SUJ'gestions made as to the methods by which the money might be raised, and these are all matters which are deserving of considemtion. Not only will the expenditure of a large sum of money be involved under any scheme of this kind, but certain vested rights will be established, and it was for that reason that my colleague the Secretary for Public Instruction counselled that in such a matter as this it was desirable that, we should move sl'llvly -not necessarily not to move with the times, but rather to allow a reasonable time to elapse so that we may see whether our

neighbours and others who are making experi­ments with such schemes are succe~sful. If they are successful so much the better, and so much the easier will it be for the legislature of this colony to deal with the question. I think that is a fair attitude to take up, because we, in our turn, are constantly experimenting for other countries where we are more advanced in different branches of legislation.

1\Ir. GLASSEY: Queensland more advanced in legislation than other countries !

The HOME SECRETARY: Yes; I could give the hon. member numbers of cases in which we are more ad' a need in our 16gislatwn.

Mr. J AOKSON: Other colonie,, appointed Royal Commissions to inquire into this question.

The HOME SECRETARY: Does the hon. member advocate the appointment of a Royal Commission?

Mr. JACKSON: It would not be a bad idea, but it is too late this se 'Sion.

The HOME SECRETARY: A Royal Com­mission can be appointed any time, whether Parliament is sitting or not.

Mr. J AOKSON: \Vhy not appoint one then? The HOME SECRETARY : There has been

no expression of opinion by the House that a Royal Commission should be appointed to inquire into the matter. If the hon. member had put hie motion in that concrete form there would have been something in it, but if the G"vern­ment had thought of appointing such a commis­sion-I do not say that they did-their hands were tied by this motion. Had they proposed to appoint a commiosion while this motion was on the paper they would certainly have laid them­selves open to be twitted that they had been driven into that position by this motion, and that they should have waited until a discussion had taken place upon the motion. Hon. mem­bers are constantly saying, and it is constantly beina said outside in magazines anrl elsewhere, that" the necrssity for theBe pensions is on the increr<~se. On that point I should like to read some fig-ures which are summarised from the "Statistics of General and Old Age Pauperism in England and Wales." published by ~he Charity Organisation Society, London. In thts summ':ry the years from 1851 to 1891 are compared w1th these results :-

l. There are now relative to the population about half the number of paupers.

2. There are now relative to the child population less than half as many dependent children.

3. There m·e now relative to the adult population (aged fifteen to sixty) about two-thirds fewer paupers ithe able-bodied).

'11. There are now relative to the aged lJOpulation (over sixt:·) nearly a third fewer paupers (21·5 per cent. in 1851; 13·7 per cent. in 1891). Those figures are very significant in view of the fact that we are being constantly told that "the good old times" we>'e very much better than the present ones in regard to the growth of pauperism. Coming Lack now to the question of discriminat­ing in the application of these pensions, why, I should like to know, should any scheme of a national character be confined to persons who are rendered incapable of earning- their own living merely through old age? Should it not also be applied to those who, through accident, misfortune, or disease, are prevented from earn­ing their own living, and have practically become prematurely aged?

Mr. J ACKSON : You can deal with them in another scheme.

The HOME SECRETARY: I think they should all be dealt w1th in the same scheme; the one should depend on the other. If one class is deserving of special legislation, the other is also.

Mr. J AOKSON: You can deal with both in the same scheme, if necessary.

-1542 Reliif for the [ASSEMBLY.] Aged Poor.

The HOME SECRETARY: Yes; I am only pointing out the very grave difficulties which lie in the path of anyone who attempts ,to grapple with this very great scheme. Again, if it is to be a matter of right of citizenship that a man shall receive an old age pension under certain conditions, is no consideration whatever to be given to his character? Suppose a man is a confirmed drunkard?

Mr. DIBLEY : Then he will go to Dunwich. The HOME SECRETARY: No; Dunwich

is to be done away with under this scheme. Mr. DIBLEY: Oh, no, The HOME SECRETARY: Oh, yes. When

my colleague, the Premier, said the poor would always be with us, and Dunwich would always be a necessity-and I hold that it will--the hon. member for Rockhampton took him to task for it, and said he was on the wrong track altogether. I am glad that the hon. member for vVoolloon­gabba is of a more practical turn of mind, and does realise the necessity for isolation in some cases ; but then you come to the question of discrimination.' Some will be sent to Dunwicb, and otherrl will be allowed to remain outside at liberty; and under those circumstances can any­one say there will nut be a certain amount of degradation or reproach against those who are treated differently from others? You must have discrimination.

Mr. DIBLEY: Drunkards are a reproach, any­how.

The HOME SECRETARY: Of course, and the hon. member says they should be sent to Dunwich. But if you discriminate as to the manner in which pensions shall be doled out to individuals you will come face to face with the fact that it will not be-any more than it is now-removed from the reproach of being charity.

Mr. STEWART: vVhat does it mattH what you call it? '

The HOME SECRETARY: I understood that hon. members opposite thought a great deal about that. They contended that it should not be called charity; that it should be upon such a basis as would preclude its being called such; that no man should be able to point to his neighb<,ur in the c~mmunity and say, "I, as a taxpayer, have contnbuted to his pension, and he is receiving the benefits of that fund at my expense."

Mr. J ACKSON: Surely the stigma will not be as great as it is now.

The HOYJ:E SECRETARY: I honestly think it will be greater. The s:-tme argument was used in New South Wales when they initiater1 the present system of school fees-that it was neces­sary before any child could be relieved from the payment of 3r1. per week that the teacher should be told its parents were not in a position to pay that amount.

Mr. GLASSEY: That was done away with some time ago.

The HOME SECRETARY: I think the hon. member is making a very great n1istake, because I have just recently seen comments upon the system in a ll'ading Sydney journal, and I am quite satisfied that it is a journal which would not be mistaken upon that point.

Mr. JAOKSON: The Bulletin? 'rhe HOME SECRETARY: Yes, That

stigma attaches to those children, and it is quite immaterial whether it is abolished or not; in fact, it is better for my argument if it is, because if it is abolished it must have been found to work badly. There wag a stigma, and there will be a stigma upon the recipients of these pensions, unless the system is applied to everybody rich and poor alike, became, if it is not gen~rally applied, before a man recei ''es his pension he will have to cert1fy that he is a pauper. You may call it anything you like, give it the most high-

sounding title ; you may call it the highest right a citizen can claim-but nevertheless, as the hon. member for Rockhampton pointed out, human nature is human nature; and as long as that is so the term" pauper," or some equiYalent term, will be applied to tht>sewho willhavetogo to the StJ.te or some other institution for benefits which they cannot wholly supply for themselves. Have we' not in our hospitals a distinction between paying and non-paying patients? Are not those who are able to pay for their segrega­tion put into different wards?

Mr. GLASSEY: That is not the case.

The HOME SECRETARY: I know it is the case in some hospitals, but of course I cannot speak of all. When the hon. member for Rock­hampton was speaking I interjected that that would be so as long as human nature is human n>tture, and we will have to change human nature before it will be otherwiRe. The hon. member "aid that would not be so, and spoke in high­flown language about the higher attributes of human nature, and asked the House whether it is not a fact that the higher nature is that which has not the gift or the curse of acqni,itiveness. I agree with him. Probably the highest natures are those which are unselfish and do not care to lay up treasures here ; but, to use a Scriptural phrase, prefer to lay up treasures in the world to come, and dispossess themselves of their riches and possessions for the benefit of others. Certainly that is so, but there is, and there always has been, a growing tendency towards the worship of wealth. It is useless for the hon. member to say that that is so now, but it was not so in the past. I pointed out to him that we are, unfortunately for ourselves, and unfortunately for his argu­ment, living in modern times; but he appealed to the future. Can he say that human nature will be any better in the future in that respect than it is now? I think not. All history is against him. Avarice and the race for wealth are stronger now amongst civilised nations than they have been in the past; the higher the civilisation the more marked is the fact.

M:r. Km8TON : That is a mere passing phase. The HOME SECRETARY: I wish I had

the hon. member's sanguine disposition, but I do not think it is. My idea is that avarice and the clesire for wealth will he stronger in future than now ; but what I desire to point out to the hon, member, and to those who approve of his motiun in its entirety, and without in any way qualifying it, is that there are insuperable difficultits in the way <>f giving effect to it, even if it be carried. Any Government-whether this or any other Government which suc­ceeds it-must necessarily give a very great deal of time and attention to the question, and weigh the various schemes which may or can be propounded for adoption before they can, as a Government responsible to this House and the country, adopt any such course. IV e must sit quietly by for the present, doing what we can, and when the time comes-and I sincerely ~ope it will be in the very near future­for us to adopt some practical scheme, we shall then ha,·e the benefit of the experience gained in other parts of the world, such as New Zealand. I may say t.bat we are already in the van in regard to this question, and that \\·e are going upon safe lines. Quite recently, during, I think, the tennre of office of Sir Horace Tozer as Home Secretary, the idea wtts put forth that it would be desirable in many instances, in the case of persons who were in Dunwich or who-if I may use the expression, were eligible for Dunwich-that instead of sending them there they should be allowed a certain small dole or pension per week, amounting approximately to the expense

.Relief for tke [15 DECEMBER.] Aged Po!Yl'. 1543

which the State would be put to iu maintaining them at Dunwich. That is a scheme which I think will commend itself to everyone.

Mr. GLASSEY: He:tr, hear! Mr. DIBLEY: Has not that worked well so far? The HLlMB SECRETARY: It has worked

well so far. M;. JACKSON: That is partly an old age

penswn scheme. The HO:YIE SECRETARY: I am showina

that 1t is partly an old age pension scheme~ Nobody can say that this Government are not in favour of old age pensions with a concrete fact like that staring them in the face which is wol'th 50,000 resolutions of the sort th~ hon. member has brought forward.

Mr. ,JACKSON: I admitted that when I moved the resolution.

The HOME SECRETARY: I know that; but I mention thA fact because I want to show the difficulties of the system and of working any old age pension scheme.

Mr. GLASSEY: I have a case from Clermont to bring under the notice of the hon. gentleman tow morrow.

The HOME SECRETARY : I shall be extremely glad to consider it for the hon. mem­ber, .but I warn him that the fullest possible mqull'y shall be made into the merits of the case. I. accept nobody on trust-nor did "'Y pred~ces~or--in su?h cases ; the fullest possible mqmry Js made mto each case of the kind through official sources.

Mr. GLASSEY: Sir Horace Tozer always viewed such matters generously and benevolently.

The HOME SECRETARY: I quite admit that, but if you admit persons to that privilege­for I think it is a privile"e-who are not entitled to it-who have me,;,'ns of their own wJw have relatives, a father or a son able to pro: v1de for them, who are able to earn their.own living, or who are malingering-if you admit one such _Person to the privil.ege, you may deprive a deservmg person of the benefit. You have to be extremely careful in discriminating in such cases. While I say unhesitatingly that the system should be administered liberally and with all possible charitable and kindly feel­ing and consideration for the applicant for such relief, the strictest possible regard must be had to the question as to whether ·the applicant is really a person who ought to receive a pension from the State. There are very few in receipt of this assistance who are under sixty or sixty-fivEI years of age, but there are some. It is also necessary, in connection with this scheme, to keep a close supervision upon the persons who are in receipt of this small pension because I find that in some instances-very fev/ I aw happy to say-there iH a tendency t~ '·blew" the pension the moment it is got, and to depend upon outside help for the rest of the week. It is in this connection that the hon. member for Woolloougabba is perfectly correct in saying t~at D~mwich will always be a necessity for deahng w1th cases of that sort. It is not every man, and certainly n<Jt every man who is in poverty in his old age, who can be trusted w1th the proper administration even of a sum so small as that on his own behalf. The~e >yill always be a very large proportion of the md1geut aged persons in the community who must have their dole managed for them in the shape of rations or in scme other way. I men­tion this that hon. members may see that it is necessary that matters ·of this sort must be approached gradually, and dealt with step by step. We .have already done this, and I think we have made a very considerable advance towa:rds the solution of the question of old age pensiOns.

Mr. BATTERSBY : I intend to vote against this motion for twt> reasons. One is to give the Telegraph room for to--

The SPEAKER : Order, order ! Mr. BATTERSBY: I suppose ·you called me

to order, Mr. Speaker, to remind me that I have got to say no more on that matter. The second rea•on why I am glling to clo it is siniply because I think that those who have been in this colony for fifteen or twenty years should have sufficient to keep themselves. Now, you go down to Dnnwich; you will find 700 or 800 men there, and one-third of them are as well able to work as you or I. I think it is unfair to try to introduce a system of old age pensions unless you are sati ,fii>d that those who are to get benefits from the taxpayers' money are not able to support themselves. I know men in Dunwich now who have sufficient to keep them. Their families 'lre living upon what their fathers livit>g in JJunwich have made. Is that fair? I say it is not. I know one man who for the last twenty years has been in Dunwich and his wife 1s working here and keeping his children, simply because he was a seam p. It is not only one, because I could tell you of many more of them, and the sooner this is given up the better. There is no doubt this is a fad of the hon. member for Kennedy, but if he will alter his motwn to one for a return of those who have been in Dunwich for the last twelve or fifteen years, showing what their incomes are, what their families have been earning, and have been gaining from their properties while they have been in Dunwich, I will vote with him with pleasure.

Mr. BARTHOLOMEW: I would not like to give a silent vote on this very important ques­tion. The first part of the motion-that the pre­sent system of relief for the aged poor is capable of much improvement-I am sure has the sympathy of the House, but if pensions are pro­vided the difficulty is how we are going to encourage thrift. J<:veryone feels that the desti­tution of the colony should be relieved, and the •ystem adopted at Dnnwich does not give the colony as a whole satisfaction, but can we not arrange to improve that system in the mean­time, until the people of the colony or the people of the world have propounded some scheme to relieve the aged poor? In asking for a vote on this question the mover asked a very big thing. No doubt if he propounded a scheme and showed how it could be worked out he would have the sympathy of the House, but he comes here with a bald resolution to the effect that we believe an old age pension scheme is very desirable. I would like to ask the mover what is his idea of old age pensions? Are they to be given only to the poorest, or are they to be given also to the middle class and to the rich class? It is hardly fair nerha.ps that we should take a vote on a question "we do not fully understand-on which no proper scheme has been formulateJ. No doubt in N'lw Zealand they have started a scheme, but we do not know whether it will be feasible or not, and I do not think it would be right in a young colony like Queensland to go in for too hasty legislation upon a matter of this sort. H seems that at home, accrrding to a scheme propounded there, for 2,000.000 of people they would have to rai,;e £17,000,000 or £18,000,000 by taxation, Rl).d that would be an enormous sum in comparison for a young colony like Queensland to rai,;e on the same ratio. I would like to know more on the subject before giving a vote.

Mr. G RIMES : I daresay there is a great deal to be said pro and con upon this question. I have often thought there was great room for improve­ment ir. our present system of granting relief to

1544 Reliif for the .Aged Poor. . [ASSEMBLY.] Personal Explanation.

those deserving of relief, especially with refer­ence to the asylum at Dunwich. Going down there you cannot help but be rtruck with the number of men, and women too, who arecapa,ble of doing mme work, and I hold that those who are capable of doing that work would he much happier and better if they had some light employ­ment to do .. There are numberc of them there, and not only would they be happier, but it would lead them to feel that there wae not so much degradation in accepting relief if they were doing the best they could to pay for that which they obtained. I do not think there is any system adopted for employing thooe men and women, not even the cultivation of a bit of garden for the supply of vegetables for the institution. That is a great mistake. There appears regularly on the Estimates a sum of money for work to be performed down there which could be done by some of the men. There is no necessity to keep them engaged for any length of time, but some of them are capable of working three or four hours a day. That insti­tution is becoming a great burden; it is an increasing institution, and still there is a cry of applicants to go down there. I think the first part of the motion I c:.tn support-that the present system of relief to the aged poor, as far as our asy !urns are concerned, may be greutly improved upon. I think also that the system of affording tempomry relief in the towns might be improved upon. I see num­bers of men constantly parading the streets of Brisbane who appear hale and hearty and able to do some work at all events, and I think if some of those men were thrown upon their own resources they would find some light employ­ment, enough to keep them in food and clothing, but unfortunately a good many of them arP of lazy habits. They are more fond of walking about than of doing any work, and as long as they eau get enough to put into their months and some old clothes to put on their backs they are quite satisfied-they do not feel the degrada­tion of paupuism. I do not think it iR well for us to enconraga that. A man that can work and won't work, in the words of the old pro>erb "neither Rhall he eat" the bread obtained by fifty others who pe1·hap,; are in no better circurr,­stances to work and obtain bread than himself. To establish a system of old r,ge pensions, under which any man could, as a right, demand a pension, would work evil amongst us, unles~ that fund was contributed. in the first instance, by those who received the benefit. 1'he question has been asked where the tnncls are to come from ? I have not yet heard a reply to that question, and until a satisfactory scheme is set before us I c.tnnot see my way to ,,npport the proposal. The money has. to be provided from some source. There is a general impression amongst the illiterate poor that the Government have any amount of money to spare, but they h<>ve no conception of the f2.ct thnt the mo!1ey which would be paid to them in the shape of relief is gathered by way of taxes from some people who perhaps are in a worse position than they them­selves. There are many bard working Lrmers of seventy-five and even eighty years of age who ere toiling for their daily bread, and doing a v, ry fair amount of work, too. To ask those individuals to pay addition~! taxes to supply the wants of those who have been indolent throughout their lives, and have wasted that which tlwy !hve earned; is asking too much. Then another question is: What is likely to be the effect of this upon the poor?

Mr. KIDS1'0N: Are you prepared to vote on it?

Mr. DUNflFORD: vVe w:-.nt to go to a division. Mr. GRIME8: The passing of a resolution

of this kind will have a very bad effect. The

very appearance of this motion on our business­paper has had a bad effect, and I can give an illustration of this which has come under my notice within the bst few weeks. There are a number of men employed on my estate, and as far as I can I give them contract work, so that those who are old and feeble may not be forced to do what may be called a full day's work; but ~ccording to the amount of work they do so they are oaid. Some of those old men can earn from 3.o. Gd. to 4s. a day. They stated, when coming to me for employment, that they were penniless, and I told them that if they worked they could, at all 8Vents, earn their living. Very shortly afterwards some of these men came to me, and one of them openly told me that they were going to give up their jobs-that the Government had to make provision for all people over sixty years of age-that there was a resolu­tion to that effect now about to he adopted by Parliament, and he was going to Brisbane to claim his pension, for he was over sixty-three years of age and entitled to a pension which would keep him without doing any more work. Numbers of men who can earn enoug-h to keep themselves will give up their employment, and rush into the metropolis with demands for pensions.

Mr. KmsTON : vVhy don't you defeat the proposal?

Mr. GRIMES: If the hon. member who has introduced tbe motion will show us how it can be <:Mried out, without putting an extra burden on the taxpayer, I should be quite satisfied to vote "'ith the hon. member, but he has done nothing of the sort.

Mr. KIDSTOX : Y on are not g-ame to vote against it.

lYir. AR~IS'rROXG : Yes we are.

J\Ir. GRIMES : He has not shown how tHe funds are to be obtained. 'I'here would be no harm in the resolution if a regular payment was to be made into the Treasury hy those who wish to obtain pensions. It would be better if men paid their spare money into a Government fund for this purpose instead of knocking their cheques down over the bar of a public-house, as m:.1ny of thnn do at present, and I take it that most of those who would ask for these pensions would he tho"e who had been improvident in the past.

Mr. JACKSON: Viihat is your object in talking it out.?

Mr. GRIMES: I have no object in talking it out. I cannot see that there would be any good in paesing it, ,,nd I do not see that there would be any good in coming to a vote on the oueslion. I believe that it would do harm, and ~e had better let the matter drop. I would like to see the hon. member withdraw the motion, and not disturb those who are now in employ­ment and earning wages, which, though small, are s:J.flicient to keep them.

At 7 o'clock the House, in accm·dance with Sessional O>·der, proceeded 1cith Government busineso.

PERSON},_£ EXPLANATION. Mr. McDONNELL : I rise for the purpose of

making a personal explanation in reference to a speech which I made in committee yesterday morning, n,nd which is not reported in Hansard. A repnrt of the nmtte.rs appears in the public Preoil, but it is not correct. That report says-

llfr. }!cDOKNELL rose at this stage and stated that it was untrue that Dr. Oulpin had adjudicated on claims he bad accepted in the Oxley division. He went on to say that the hon. member for the Valley had been doing the dirty work tor the member for Oxley.

Pearlskell, Etc., Bill. [15 DECEMBER.] .Supply. 1545

Mr. FIXXEY: That's not what you said when you wanted money from me. You profe''"·ed to be a. friend of mine, but at the same time you were acting the other way.

Mr. 1IcDO:\T:\TELL: I never wanted the hon. gentle-man as a friend.

Mr. FI~NEY: You are nothing but a. crawler. ::11r. LEAHY: Order, order! Mr. FI~NEY: You have bad money from me over and

over again for your early closing at...~ociation. In the Telegraph my denial of thaL statement is inserted, but it is not published in thiR paper.

The SPEAKER : Order ! Is the hon. mem­ber referring to what took place in committee?

Mr. MoDONNELL : Yes, I am referring to what took place in committee, but is not reported in Hansa1·d, and this is the only oppor­tunity I have of giving a denial to that ,;tate­ment.

The SPEAKER : The hon. member should have made his denial when the statement was made.

Mr. MoDONNELL : I waited until Hansa1·d was published to see if it was published there, but it was not. At the time the statement w9"s made I told the hon. member that he had never given a donation to the early closing associa­tion. The hon member interjected that his cheque·books would show it. But I ttbsolutely deny that the hon. member has ever handed a donation to the early closing associaticn in his life, but on a few occasions he has bought tickets for--

Mr. FrNNEY: Isn't that giving money? The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member

is going entirely beyond a personal explanatiOn. It appears to me that he is trying to get in Hansard a speech which was not reported when the House was in committee. He is now restat­ing what he said in committee, and that is entirely out of order.

Mr. FINNEY: I hope I shall be allowed to reply.

Mr. MoDONNELL: The hon. member's state­ment has appeared in the Press.

The SPI~AKER: The hon. member will have an opportunity of replying in the Press, but he must see that because a speech made by him in committee was not reported he cannot now repeat his speech in order to get it reported. I must strongly object to such a proceeding. The oourse the hon. member should have adopted, if he wished to refer to the matter again, was to have done so when the House went into com­mittee yesterday afternoon on the same Bill. I must ask him not to proceed further with the matter.

Mr. McDONNELL: I thouo;ht the indul­gence of the House was always extended to an hon. member to make an explanation in regard to a statement made in the Press.

The SPEAKER: Yes, but the hon. member must do it at the right tim<'. He cannot refer in the House to what happened in committee; he should have referred to it in committee imme­diately after he saw the statement in the Press.

Mr. MoDONNELL : Yes, but I waited to see what report of the proceedings appeared in Hansard. I may say, as far as the statement of the hon. member is concerned, I took exception to it.

The SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. member is going beyond a personal explanation. If he repeats his speech, the hon. member for Toowong must be allowed to reply.

PEARLSHELL AND BECHE-DE-MER FISHERY BILL.

The House having, in Committee of the Whole, affirmed the desirablenet<s of introducing this Bill, it was read a first time, and its second reading made an Order of the Day for to­morrow.

SUPPLY. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS- PmVATE MEMBERS'

BcsrNES~.

The TREASURER: Mr. Speaker,-I move that you do now leave the chair.

1\fr. GRI;\IES: I have been waiting for some time for an opportunity to refer to a matter which considerably affects the privileges of hon. members. t:ltanding Order 63 readR as follows :-

.A.t the time appointed for giving notiecs of motions a member may put any qne'3tion of which notice has been ;;iven to any other mmnber of the House relating to any Bill, 1notion, or other public matter connected with the business of the House.

This gives members an opportunity of putting quest.ions to~ other hon. members. I find that May, in his book upon" Parliamentary Practice," more definitely defines the kind of questions which may be put to hon. members and also to Ministers. At page 237 he says-

Questions addressed to 1Hnisters should relate to the public affairs with which they an~ o:fflcia1ly connected, to proceedings pending in Parliament, or to any matter of administration for which the ~1inist£:.'r is responsible.

In accordance with our Standing Orders and with the reference from May which I have quoted, we have the undoubted privilege of putting questions to our fellow-members and to Ministers, and in the exercise of my undoubted right and privilege I, on the 23rd November, put certain questions to the hon. m~mber for Carnarvon, who is Home Secretary. I con­sidered them suitable questions of public im­portance. I shall read those questions, and then refer to the answers I received to them-

1. Are the trustees of the various cemeteries in the colony appointed by the Government P

2. If so, for what term, and upon what conditions are they appointed?

3. Do such trustees furnish annual reports of their operations to the Government?

4. Do they furnish annual balance-sheet• to the Government?

5. Are their accounts audited by Government auditors?

6. Have the trustees the power without the consent of the Government to direct the manner in which the balance of moneys in their hands shall be appro­priated?

7. Are the actions of such trustees subject to Go­vernmental supervision and control The answers I got to those questions were as follows:-

1. See section 1 of the Cemetery .\.et of 1865. 2. See section 4 of the Act. 3. See section 29 of the Act. 4. See section 28 of the Act. 5. No. 6. See section 30 of the Act. 7. See sections 29 and 30 of the Act.

I want to ask you, Mr. Speaker, and through you I want to ask hon. members, if that WJlS a suitable reply to an hon. member putting questions of public importance? I think the answer must be that it is not. The answers given were evasive and also discourteous, and were not such as I should have received from an ordinary member of the House, much less from a Minister of the Crown. I think such replies are not likely to sustain the dignity of the high position the hon. member holds. Those replies might be considered smart as a bit of a joke, but I am not in the habit of joking in the exercise of my parliamentary duties, nor do I like to become the victim of other people's jokes. I may remind the hon. mem­ber of the quaint saying of an old writer, "John Ploughman " : "Jokes never win over an enemy, but they have been the means of losing many friends." Jokes or smart say­ings should not be indulged in in this Chamber by one member to another. I think suitable replies might have been given to these questions. I had no need of the information on my own

1546 Supply. • [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

account. I daresay I was as well acquainted with the clauses of the Cemetery Act a' the clerk;; in the office who framed those replies !:mt the .questions were J:).ot asked for my ow~ mformatron. There has been a great laxity in the way in which our cemetery trusts have been dealt with, and it was to obLttin in­formation given publicly that I put those que,tious. That is the idea in puttin" all questions to Minister>. Had I wanted the information f·n· myself personally, I could have .gone to the hon. member, but I put the questron~ fr:;m my !Jlace in Parliament, that the ~··phes to them might be given publicly in Parh.,ment. I take it that is the intent of the Standing Order-that we should have that privi­lege to prevent waste of the time Of the House in having motions put upon the business-paper to be discussed in the ordinary way. If the clerks in the ofllce had taken a little trouble they could have given .;uitable replies. Hall the posi­tions of the -hon. membsr and myeelf been tranB­posed, and had I occupied the seat the hon. member occupie~, I think I should have fmmed a suitable reply to the question;,, I shoulll have replied-

1. :rhe Governor in Council may, from time to time, appOint so many trustees, not fewer than five in number, as he may think fit.

2. The Governor in Council may, from time to time, as and when he shall think proper, remove from the said trust any trustee.

3. An Dual reports have to be furnished to the Home Secretary as to the condition of the grounds, etc.

4. They must send annu·l-1 statements of accounts verified by a E<tatutory fl.eeluration; every such state­ment shall be published in the Gocernl!lent Gazette.

5. So. 6. Governor in Council directs the manner in which

the balance of moneys in the hands of the trustees shall bP appropriated

?· From the answers to the two forer;oing questions it w1ll appear that the actions of such trustees are subject to the Governmental supervision and control.

I submit that the answers to the questions might have been given in that way. But they were not, and instead we have recorded in the journ:1ls of ~h.e House answers w hi eh reflect upon the posr~ron th~ hon .. member holds, and which are, I thmk, a drscredrt to the department from which they emanated. I w:.tnt to remind the hon. member that thia curt reply was not given to me only, but to 1,500 inteJJigent voters, of whom ~he hon. gen.tleman is one, because any discourtesy m a reply gr ven to a member is a discourtesy to the whole of the people he represents· and the Minister should instruct his clerks td spend a little more time in giving suitable replies. I have brought this matter forward because I thought I shou]d ~e w.:.nt\ng, not only in self-respect, but also m respect for my constituency, if I submitted to be snubbed in the way I think I have been snubbed by some party or another. I do not know exactly where to lay the blame, but as far as we are concerned the means of com­munication is the Home Secretary. I am aware that questions put in Parliament are answered by the clerks of the office, whose written replies are sent; and on this occasion I a m aware also that the Home Secretary was placed in rather an awkward position. He had not the replies with him when I should have put t.he questiotJ, and it was only a moment or w before I put the question that I saw he received evidently what was the reply, so under the circumstances it is possible that he may not have bePn fully aware of the kind of replies he was giving. But he is the responsible party, and thi;; will give him an opportunity of explaining or vindicating the conduct of his subordinates. It is also important because other members at times receive curt replies, and it is just as well that the clerks in the various departments should bear in mind that the wheel of political fortune may bring as the

head of a department the very man they perhaps have snubbed with the replies sent to the Minister. I ha.-e no wish to take up time, but I thought it my duty to bring forward this matter publicly, and I shoulll take the or,portunity of having my protest recorded on the journals of the House in which the discourteous replies have been recorded.

The HOME SECRETARY: I am glad to have the assurance from the hon. member that he never perpetrates a joke in this House, because otherwise I might have been disposed to think he was now attempting one at my expense. I am rather sorry the hon. member has taken the tone towards me that he has taken. In the first place, however, I must assure him and the House that I am solely responsible for -the nature of the replies. He is in no way warranted in assuming that any of the subordinates are responsible for any possible diBcourtesy to him, because I myself revised the replies given by the officials, and I thought I had very good reasons for so doing. The hon. member says he was as well aware of the correct answers to his question as I was myself.

Mr. Gmli!ES: As the clerks who framed those replies.

The HOME SECRETARY: As the clerks in the ofllce. And he has shown that that is so hy giving what I understand to be a correct inter­pretation shortly of the various sections of the Act to which my replies referred. Let me assure the hon. member at once, however, that in fram­ing those replies, the illea either of a juke or of discourtesy to the hon. member was absolutely foreign to my mind at the time. I am prepared to answer all questions put to me in this House, and so is every member of the Government, but it did appear to me that unless I gave the hon. member the context in full of the various sections of the Act his questions referred to, I should be doing that which I was not entitled to--that is to say, acting as an interpreter of the law for a member of this House publicly and from my place on this bench. For ought I knew-because the hon. member never communicated to me his desire or his purpose in asking the que8tions-the questions might have been framed with the view of obtaining my interpretation of questions of law.

Mr. GRili!ES: I do not attempt to get law on the cheap.

The HOME SECRETARY: I do not suppose the hon. member does, but I am not here to interpret the· law for the hon. member or for any other hon. member. The correct course was either to do that which I did-refer to the particular sections where he could get the infor­mation-or else set out the sections of the Act. \Yhen a man asks for information it is genemlly a"sumed that he has not already got that informa­tion. I do not wish to imply that the hon. member was not possessed of as much informa­tion as I was regarding the terms of the Ceme­tery Act. I regret that he should have taken it as he has, and I cannot help thinking that had it not been for a paragraph that appeared in the paper ~aying that there was an intention to snub the hon. member, he would not have brought the matter forward. The questions were not ques­tions on matters of fact, but on matters of law which are all contained within tho provisions of the Cemeteries Act.

Mr. GRIMES: I submitted those replies to the Chief Sectetary before I saw any remarks in the pt1.pers.

The HOME SECRETARY: I thought the hon. member brought the matter forward on that account, because he used the expression "snubbing," which was used in the paragraph.

Supply. [15 DECEMBER.] Supply. 1547

He can accept my assurance that there was no intention on my part to snub him or treat him with discourtesy.

Mr. DANIELS: There is no doubt the hon. member for 0;-.ley asked the question not for his own information, but for the information of the public generally. The public have not got copies of the statute~ in their houses to refer to. 'rhe Home Secretary says that the answer was not intended as a snub to the hon. member for Oxley. At all events it was understood by the whole House that the answer was given to make a laughing-stock of the hon. member for Oxley.

The HoME SECRETARY : Certainly not. Mr. DANIELS : It had the effect of creating

a great laugh at the expense of the hon. member.

Mr. HAMILTON: Nobody ever heard that laugh.

Mr. DANIELS : I fancy I heard the hon. member for Cook laugh as loud as any member of the House.

Mr. HAMILTON : I would not be such a fool as to do it.

Mr. DANIELS: Whether that was the inten­tion of the answer or not, it was certainly the effect. The remarks the Home Secretary has just made were to this effect: "Remember that I belong to the legal profession, and that although I am Home Secretary, if you want my advice you will have to pay 6s. Sd. for it."

Mr. KEOGH: Quite ·right, too. Mr. GROOM: Before you leave the chair,

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier a que~tion. A few days ago I asked him a ques­tion in reference to the reports of the com­mercial agents. The hon. gentlen,an was good enough to say that if I would call at his office I could peruse the reports, which were very voluminous. I want to assure the hon. gentle­man that I was put in motion by mercantile men in the city of Brisbane, who were anxious to know what those commercial r~ports cost, and wha.t benefit the colony was likely to derive from them. I would ask tae hon. gentleman if he would have a preci~ of the reports prepared and laid on the table of th@ House for public infor­mation; and secondly, I would like to ask him if he will be good enough to inform the House and the country whether Mr. Finucane's mission has closed or whether--

The SPEAKER : The hon. member is adopt­ing rather an unusual course in asking questions of that nature at this stage of the business. The proper course would be for the hon. member either to give notice of the questions, or ask them, by le~tve of the House, at the time' for asking questions.

Mr. GROOM: The information which the hon. gentleman was good enough to give me the other day did not contain the specific informa­tion which I d8sired to obtain, and I would be much obliged to him if he would extend that information so that those who moved me in the matter will see whether the c.mntry is likely to derive some return from the very large expendi­ture involved in the production of the three reports.

The PREMIER : It is somewhat difficult to make extracts from voluminous reports in an intelligible form. I would much prefer if the hon. member would peruse the reports and indi­cate the portions which he would like to see published for the information of the general public. My only object in not placing the reports on the table was that in their present form I did not imagine they would be of general interest, and they are very voluminous. I can­not give any information at the present time in regard to Mr. Finucane, as the question is n0w under the consideration of the Government, and it would be better if the hon. gentleman asked

a question in the ordinary form. I have no desire to prevent the reports being laid on the table, and they are of such length that I question whether the clerical staff of the office would be able to copv them in time to place them in the hands of hem. members within the limits of this session. It wLuld be far better if the hon. gentleman would read the reports and point out what portions he would like to have copied. I very much regret that anything has transpired in connection with the replies given to the bun. member for Oxley to cause the hon. member any offence. He might accept the explanation of the Home Secretary in good part, and divf',<t his mind of the idea that the answers were framed in a manner calculated to give him offence, or to show that the questions were not considered deserving of a full reply. The terse nature of the replies was due to the fact that my colleague wished to direct attention to the exact expres­sions of the Act rather than give hi'l. own inter­pretation of the Act. I hope we shall now proceed with the business of the evenmg.

Mr. BATTERSBY : I would like to have a return for the last ten years of the amounts granted to cemetery tru~tees. At the present time I am chairman of one of these cemetery committees. If the hon. member will alter his motion--

The SPEAKER : Order ! There is no motion before the House except that I do now leave the chair.

Mr. BATTERSBY: Very well, Sir, to-morrow or the next day probably I shall be able to get the information that the hon. member for Oxl!'y is afraid of. I shall give notice of motion.

Mr. DRAKE: As we are g6tting near the close of the session, I am justified in saying a word in regard to the condition of the business on the paper in the name of private members. I understand that this is practically the last day for nri vate business this session. I came here this -afternoon in the belief that a serious effort was going to be made to deal with a large pro­portion of the private business now on the notice­paper. I listened to a disquisition on the subject of old age pensions from the other side-very interesting and very appropriate in its proper place ; hut It occupied nearly t.he whole time allotted to private members. I think the Home Secretary spoke for an hour and a-half. I did not take the time ; but I know the hon. gentle· man spoke for a very long time.

The SPEAKER: Order t The hon. member is not in order in commenting upon that. He must see that he cannot complain of the action of the Home Secretary in addressing himself to any question before the House.

Mr. DRAK!<J: I know that the Home Secre­tary has a perfect right to speak for any length of time up till 6 o'clock, but the Government know that there are urgent measures in charge of private members, and I think that as we are so near the end of the session they should give some distinct pledge with regard to tte transac­tion of private business.

Mr. CROSS : I recognise that pnvate mem­bers can do very little indeed in the shape of legislation. The most they can hope to achieve is a discussion which will prepare the minds of the public and hon. members for legislation on particular subjects later on. I was given to understand that a certain arrangement had been agreed to with regard to private business, and in conformity with that understanding I moved the postponement of the consideration of an item I had on the paper until after the consideration of another Order of the Day. I therefore think there is Rome ground for complaint in this matter. There are eight or nine items on t~e paper in charge of private members, for the dis­cussion of which we have really had no fair

1548 Supply [ASSEMBLY.]

opportunity. The Government ought to make some definite promise in regard to those matters. The lesson I have had this session on this subject is one that ~ shall not readily for.,et.

The SJ:>J<,AKER : Order! The hon. member is now going beyond the question.

Mr. CROSS : I hope some opportunity will be given to privare members to get their business dealt with by the House, and if~ promise to that effect is made by the Premier, I hope his colleagues and supporters v, ill stand !ovally by him. l\Iembers know, and the country must know, that the Government have charge of the businc<s of the House, and that it is left to their sweet will whether they will afford priYate mem· hers an. opportuni;y of getting tht·ir bm;ness dealt w1tb or not. I know tbat according to a strict reading of the Standing Orders any mem· her can initiate bnsiness. but we know that there are certain unwritten rules and practices which override thps3 Standing Orders. I hope that if any arrangement is made in regard to private business, that ~euangement will be adhered to by the whole of the members of the Government and their supporter'.

The SPEAKER: Order ! I really fail to see that the hon. men:ber i,; in order in debating that question.

The l:'RE}IIEH: Was any arranr;ement made this afternoon?

Mr. CROSS: There was an arrangement made two or three days ago with the leader of the Government, and I readily fell in with that arrangement. I was not aware that in men­tioning this matter I was breaking the rules of the Home.

The SPEAKER : Order! I understood from what the hon. member said thett he was referring to some arrangement which had been made this afternoon, l1nd under which he moved the post­ponement of his Order of the Day. If that is not what the hon. member meant I misunder­stood him.

Mr. CROSS : The arrangement I was referring to was not made this afternoon, but it was come to between the hon. member for Drayton and Toowoomba and the ban. member for J<;noggera with the leader of the Govemment. I regret that that under.-tanding did not permeate the whole of the Treasury bench.

The HoME SECHETAIW: Yes it did, thoroughlv. Mr. CROSS: As far as I am concerned, ·r

have two or three items on the paper which have been discussed in the House in previous se~·sions, and I was content to allow those to go by the board ; but I wanted to have a discussion on the State Advances 13ill and the Life Assurance Bill which have not bPendiscus:;ecl in this House at all.

Tbe PREMIER: May I be permitted to speak?

HoNOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! The PRE;yiiER : When I arrived in the

House this afternoon, having been delayed for reasons which it is not necesse1ry to mention, I was surprised to find that oome of thLse measares of a practical character, such as those entrusted to the hon. member for Drayton and Too­woomba and the hon. member for Enoggera, had not been proceeded with. The arrangement made with those hon. membere, in the presence of the hon. member for •Clermont was, that mensures of a practical character should be pro· ceeded with, ancl that if there was not sufficient time to dispose of them in the time allotted to private members' business I would endeavour to find an evenin;: at an <".trly date for their con­sideration. :But I did not think that the remnant of the seesion would be occupied with a debate on an academic question wch as that which was discussed this afternoon. If anyone is deserving of any censure in this matter it is those hon. members who considered

that they had as much right to discuss an academic question at the present period of the session as they would have under ordinary cir­cumstances. :My arrangement with the hon. members to whom I have referred was that they should endeavour to prevail with their friends on~ that side of the House to withdraw such matters, and allow practical measurell-the Toowoomba Town Hall Bill and the Cairns Gas Company Bill-to receive consideration, and that if tho"e measures were not then dis­posed of I would endeavour to give some Go­vernment time to complete them. I very much regret the delay, but I distinctly say tbat the Government are not responsible for it. I cer­tainly made no promise, and I hold out no promise now, that the Government will give up time which must necessarily be occupied in the transaction of Government business to the con­sideration of private business-if hon. members occupy the time at this stage of the session in the discussion of academic questions that can have no legislative conclusion this se>sion.

Mr. TDRLEY: The hon. gentleman says it was understood that certain nractical measures should be proceeded with in· private members' tilT' e. ·who did the hon. gentleman depute to decide what are practical measures? I do not know that any member has the right to act as censor of this House, and say what he considers are measures of a practical character.

The PRE~IIER : A Bill is the most practical form of legislation.

Mr. TUitLEY: A :Bill is the most practical form of legislation, but a motion oftentimes has a most important bearing upon the introduction of legislation. If it were not so, wby do tbe Standing Orders provide that hon. members mrty have an opportunity of placing motions on the paper, and that time should be allowed private members for the discussion of them. Members are not inclined to put motions on the paper for the purpose of wasting time. Members on both sides are as satisfied that the session should come to an end at a reasonable time, as members on the front 'l.'reasury benches. On this question, brought up by the ban. member for Kennedy, the hon. member was anxious that there should be a division taken upon it at once.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: vVhy? Mr. TURLEY: The hon. member "ould have

been satisfied to have had a division taken on it the last time it was under discussion, but when the question came on again this afternoon the hon. member for :Balonne resumed his speech upon it, then the hon. member for Rockhampton spoke, and then what sight did we see~--

The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member is entirely out of order.

Mr. TURLEY: I only want to prevent an erroneous impression getting abroad from the speech of the Premier as to the agreement which was entered into, and whieh the hon. gentleman's remarks would suggest bad been broken by hon. members on this side. There was nothing of tbe sort, and so far as members on this side are con· cerned what they want is to dispose of the busi­ness on tbe paper. We were anxious that the question should be put from the chair, that the House should be asked to give an exprPssion of opinion upon them, and then get on to the other business.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I have been surprised to hear that any fault is found with the Home Secretary for speaking. vVe were invited by the hon. member for South Brisbane to take a division upon the question, but surely it was most important that a speech should be delivered upon it bv tbe Minister in charge of the department which would have to administer such affairs as ol:1 age pensions, and that at the present time administers Dunwich

SupptJJ. l15 DECEMBER.] SupplJJ. 1549

and other charitable institutions. It was only reasonable that the Home SecretarY should speak upon the motion, and I do not see how any fault can be found with that. If the hon. member had been contented with the dis­cussion, and had been willing to withdraw the motion--

Mr. GLASSEY: Why should he do that? The SECRETARY .FOH PUBLIC LANDS:

If he should not have withdrawn the motion, then why should not hon. members discuss it? The agreement entered into between the leader of the House and certain other hon. members was never that we should divide upon a motion without discussion, but that what would have practical or immediate effect- not abstract motions-should be settled after discussion and division. I cannot understand tlutt thPre should be any comphtint that the Home Secretary, of all people, should have spoken, even at consider­able length, on the quest.ion.

Mr. J AOKSON : It is only fair to say that I was never consulted about any arrangement as to private hu,iness. I must say that the remarks which have fallen from the Premier and from tbe Secretary for Lands are strangely inconsistent. The Premier finds fault "ith taking up the time with academic discu"ions, and the Secretary for Lands says it was quite the proper thing tn debate the question.

The HOME SEOECTARY : Yes, if it was to be proceeded "ith.

Mr. JACKSON: He ,ays it was quite the proper thing for the Home Secretary to discuss it. The two things are inconsistent.

The .HOME t:iECRETARY : \V by should I be silent any more than you?

Mr. JAOKSON: 1 had no objection to the Home Secretary debating the matter, but if hon. members will look through the reports of the debates upon it since the motion was introduced, they will find that three-fourths of the talking upon it has been done by members on the other side. It is only courteous on the part of the bead of the Government at the end of the session to offer facilities for motions being decided by "' division. All I ask for is that some opportunity should he given for a vote upon the question before the end of the session, and so long as the Premier will give me an assurance of that I am satisfied.

Mr. GLASSEY: \Vith reference t,) the re­marks of the Secretary for Lands that the hon. member for Kennedy should have been satisfied with the discussion that had taken phtce on his motion and should have withdrawn it, I inter­jected "Why should the hon. member withdraw his motion?" I look upon the question as of the utmost importance, an<i I do not regard the dis­cussion upon it as an academic discussion at all. Some members may think it is not a qnP,tion which can be legislated upon at the present time, but I think it is.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIO LANDS : This session?

Mr. GLASSEY: I do not say that n,,w, but there was abundance of time since the motion was introduced to have had it carried long ac;o, and to have had some attempt made to grve effect to it. The speech of the Home Secretary was rather lengcl1y, but from my point of view it was an excellent speech. I do not agree with everything the hon. gentleman said. l\lauy of the objections he raised--

The ::-iPEAKER: Order ! The hon. member cannot now review the speech the Home Secra­tary made in a previous debate.

Mr. GLASSEY : What I find fault with is that some hon. members single out motions which they regard as impracticable, but I could point to a number of Bills on the paper which hon. mem­bers on the other side might also considerimprac-

ticable and of which they might say there was nu use in the House discussing them as they deal with questions twenty or fifty years ,,head. I hope facilitie,, will be given to private mem!Jers to deal with the bubine·os they now have on the paper. I hope the hon. member for Kennedy will not withdraw his motion but will take a division upon it. \Ve may differ in opinion as to what is r•racticable, but I think the motion of the hrm. member is of the utmn"t importance, and I certainly regard an old a_;.e :;;ension :scheme as a practicable wt::...t:-!lUe.

:cur. Kl.DSTOX: 1 would like to o.lY a word or tv;('~ as I was one of the sinners who spoke on a question that has been said to be oi an unprac­tical nature. On lookin;,:· over the m0tions in the names of private members on the buoineso­p:tpet• I see Hone of more practical imp(Jrtance than the one we discu .. oed this afternoon, and I think that long as ·nembers di ·;cuss it h gi­timately they have everv right to address themHelves to the que;ction. I do not thiuk the Home Secretary can be blamEd in any way in connection ;·., ith that motion. :From his official position it was important that v·a should hear his opinions on the subject, and no doubt he coulJ have said a great deal more--in fac~, he could h>we talked it e>ut h:.d be so de,ircd. I hav not a word to "-'Y ag . .inst the Home Secretary, but I thinlc other member on that side are blamable for tal!dng--

The SPEAKER: Order! The hrm. member cunnot comment on the action of hon. members in that way.

~1r. T\fl)~TON: I ~.gtee th'lt hf1!L !Y.!Br!.:berE! can discuss any question, and so long as there is legitimatA discussion--

The SPEAKBR: Order ! The hon. member has no right to p>1Ss judgment on the conduct of hon. members. The~- h(lve a perfect right to speak. ·

Mr. KIDSTOX: I have not the r•.motest idea of censuring any member of this House for expressing his opinion upon a que >lion, but I think thht when hon. memhHs prevent an expression of opinion--

The SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. member is transgressing the rules of de:- ate.

Question put and passed. l{ESCl\!PTION 01!' C01DliTTEE.

AGRICULTURAL COLLEGE. The SECRETARY :FOR AGRICULTUHE

moved that £6,201 be granted for the Agricul­tural College. There were no increases gmnted to officers of the college. The incre :se of £220 was mainly brought about by phcing- under the head of salaries the lwrticulturiot and the super· intendent of the mechanic"] department, whose salarie•; last year were paid out of contingencies. The resignation of the late principal caused a vacanc}, which had been tilied by the appoint­ment of Mr. Mahon at £400 a year. 'rlw secretarial d utie3 appertaining to the college were now performed by Mr. Boyd, who was also editor of the Agri, u/tural Journal. J:·be increase in contingPncie·J had been caused by the natural de;, lopruent of thE' college in th(· erection of buildings and so on.

Mr. ST.EW AR'r thou:;·ht the c,)mmittee was entitled to son1e exp1au3tion of t 1Je oircurnt'\tance:s: that led to the dis:-1issal of Prnfc '···nr ::ihelton. In luoking over the evidence given at the inquiry held by the Minister he con!d comP to no other conclueion than that t; e professor did not receive fair plav. In ~\fay, 1898. he Ibade a communi­cation to the Under t:lecretr.ry ccmplaining of a riot at the colleg~, and immediately afterwards the students sent " petition to the Under Secre­tary complrtinh~~ .of the professor. .Following upon that the .:Yfmmter sent Mr. Mahon and Mr. Benson to exnmine the dairy stock and tb" orchard at the college; and immediately thereafter the

1550 [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl!J.

Minister, in c0mpany with the hon. member for Bulloo, went to the college, he supposed for the purpo"e of making an investigation. He did hold an inquiry, but Professor Shelton was not invited to that inquiry, nor was he officially informed, as far as he couli ascertain, that any inquiry ''as being held. The ]Jrofessor was not only charging the students with certain things, but he h nnself wa,; on his trial, and he did not think that in any civilised country in the world except Uussia a man was tried in his absence.

Mr. KmsT0:-1 : We never had such a Minister before.

::.\1r. STEW ART : He hoped they never again would ha.ve a :Minister who would follow the unworthy example of the Minister for Agri­culture in holding an inquiry in the absence of the person interested.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICl:LTl:RE Quite untrue. Read page 7.

Mr. STEWART : Was Professor Shelton present while the hon. gentleman was examining witnesses?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: No. Mr. STEW ART: Who ever heard of a per•on

being tried in this fashion? The hon. gentleman sat as judge, called in witneBses, asked them questions regarding an absent person, who should have been present to cross. examine and test the validity of their evidence. He called in the defendant after the trial was over. This wa" a second edition of what was called in Scotland, in the old days, "Jeddart justice." He proposed to deal in the first instance with the evidence given in regard to the riot. He would only give some of the tit-bits. Mr. Briinnich said, "The r•rincipal had absolutely no control of the boys. They even took out a horse and kiiied it." It would be interesting to know who A.B. was, and whether his parent paid for that horse. Mr. Brunnich also said that the principal was unsympathetic. Almost every witness echoed that cry, and if they analysed the evidence closely they would find why Professor Shelton had been considered nnsym pathetic. Mr. Pitt, another teacher, said that the students disliked the principal, and he went on to say that the professor always seemed to treat the boys kindly and courteously, and yet they dis­liked him. Hs said that he got on well with the principal, and could not wish for a better man. He would just give the remarks of that teacher with regard to some of the boys in answer, he presumed, to questions pnt by the Minister-

A.B's expulsion met with the approval of the teachers. I believe his conduct out of school was bad. He was not a hard worker. I had no reason to complain of him, or of C.D. either. Neither were hard workers. They were rather indifferent, but I had no reason to coni­plain of their conduct ..

I have no complaint to make of E. F., but I think his inftuence here was bad.

I do not think G.H. will he a great loss to the school. In tact, some of the students-members of the com­mittee-spoke to me complaining about him, they having had some difficulty with him.

I.J. was very young, aud he was a very trouble::.'lllle little fellow. lie did very little work, was inattentive, but I would not say he was a bad boy. I unclerstand be used to use strong language.

K.L., I understand, has left of hiR own accord. 1\LN. He would come under the same category as

I.J. He was young, and did but little good. S. T. There was nothing a. bout him so far that I

know. There was no intention of s:r. not coming back. Q.R. was a good little fellow, very backward, but an

earnest little chap. As for S.T. and q.R., I had nothing to do with thelr

leaving. They were very backward, and had failed signally in the examination; but I think the reason why they left was because they were not used to the out-door work.

With regard to A. B. he also said, "A. B. did kill a horse.'' I<'urther on Mr. Pitt said, probably in

reply to a question, the principal "was disliked, bnt he was altogether at a loss to account for the strong feeling that existed."

If they have any rer1uests to make be listens to them courteously, and he seems, to me, to endeavour to meet them, and do his best for tb. m. I fancy that this riot at the end of term was worked up by one or two students, particularly E.F. and "~.X. So far as I can understand it was organised altogether by those two, and some others joined in. Then Mr. Schmidt, the science master, said that the professor wus unsympathetic to everybody. Mr. Schmidt taught botauy, dmwing, and book­keeping, and his opinion was that too much time was devoted to outdoor work and too little to botany, drawing, and bookkeeping. ·with regard to C. D. he said-

! have known both C.D. and his father, and think young C.D. was rather severely dealt with by his ather. It appeared that young O.D. was troublesome, and his father had aetu:<lly to be sent for to keep him in order-

This was perhaps the first time that C.D. came to a place where he was his own master, and the boys could do pretty well what they liked here. He should imagine they could, and that no man could keep such an unruly set of young fellows in order. "With regard to ::mother boy he said-

ILL. had taken a great deal of interest in his lesssons, and he would give you a civil ans\Yer. He was a flighty boy who liked to talk to his neighbours in the class, but he was not half a bad boy. With regard to another he said-

Y.Z. bad been in the bush a good deal, and he found a great difficulty in submitting to proper authority.

A.B.'s case was noL brought before the teachers' meeting. I heard it at the Yanneck's accidentally. However, this boy (I believe it was E.li',), A.B., and some others went into the paddock, got a horse, and on this occasion the animal was killed, but we never !ward about it officially. I was told afterwards the boys were rather deli~hkd in getting off so easily, and I was told that one of them said that, such being the case, they could try it again. Mr. Quodling, the farm foreman, in his evidence, said-

As for I.J ., I believe he picked up a good deal of swearing at the college.

With regard to tl1e dislike of the pupils for the principal, I believe it was at the bottom of the whole affair. You can, perhaps, attribute the dislike to the prin~ipal's manner of dealing with the boys. I do not think he is unsympathetic in scme things. I think he tries to get on with the boys, but it is h1s own peculiar manner. Mr. Gorrie, the horticulturist, gave this evidence-

I.J. was very young. He was inclined to be impudent, required putting down pretty strongly, and was in the habit of using filthy language every time he spoke. He used to do it with me until I stopped him. In my opinion he was too young, and had not enough sense to know what he was here for. I think he hrought the accomplishment of swearing with him. He was an artist when he came.

Speaking of the principal, he said-With rega1·d to the dislike of the boys to the prin­

cipal. The boys clo dislike him. It was that dlslike that culminated in the riot. The riot was an exhibition of that dislike. It wa·" purely an outcome of their disN like to the principal. Mr. Quinn, the mechanic, said-

C.D. was rather lazy, but he was not disorderly at work. after work, however, lle 'vas inclined to be a bit rongh.

l'~.F. was an extremely lazy fellow, and I have very little doubt that if any distnrbance took place· be was one of the ringl.:>aders.

G.H. was ralher a cunning fellow. He was more of the nature of an agitator. But several very disagreeN able things were brought home to him, and they were submitted to the meeting. ::\either E.I1'. norG.H. would be any lof:.~.

I.J:and :\.LN. were very noisy, playful, boyish. They were too young to be here. They simply did not realise the opportunities they had.

Swpply. [15 DECEMBER.] Supply. 1551

With regard to the principal. I think the students do dislike him. It is hard to say why, but I think the feelmg IS that way, and I think it is general. There are several whl:! aTe inc~ined to l.ike him, but the majority probably dislike b1m. I thmk the removal of these hall-dozen boys will do good. The example and the knowledge that tbese students were punished would remove a lot of trouble. though it might not remove some of the dissatisfaction. It would probably keep them quiet, and. would probably make them more amen­able to discipline. The ff~eling of dislike to the principal has not been evident all through. It commenced because he did not sufficiently encourage cricket. rrhat ~tarted it. He does look rather askance at cricket, aud, 1n fact, all sports. No doubt he bdieves more in work.

With regartl to the evening work, Mr. Quinn said-

They do not work very seriously in the evening, but they are not supposed to meet, say, in the smoking­room and play cards. From what he had heard some of the students left the college with a very expert knowledae of card-playing, but very little knowled~e of furm­ing. The first thing apparent from the evidence was that the students disliketl the principal, and the second was that the students were a must unruly, ungovernable, and unworthy lot. The reason why they did not like the professor was also abundantly evident from the evidence-that he insi>.ted upon their Joing work, instead of !oafing about, wasting their time, antl indulging m sport. That was the reason why they disliked the professor, and why they organised the riot at the college, and made his life a burden to him. Another reason, which w <es referred to by Pro­fes~or Shelton, was that a very large proportion of the students were young men who had never been on a farm before, but were young townsmen who had not theremutestideaofwhat farming was like. He did not know whether the students were dismissed or not, but he knew that the Minister c!'lled upon the principal to send in his resigna­twn. The hon. gentleman, in addition to inquiring into the riot, also asked those extremely rude, uncultivated, ignorant young men-so far as agriculture was concerned-to come in and pass judgment on the man who was teachmg them. Did anyone ever hear of such a thing in the history of the world before? He had never comA across such an incident in all his reading . • T. H. B. Preston said--

'Ye are milking twenty-two cows, and we got two and a-half buckets of milk the other moruing. You could habg ycur hat on most of the cows, they are so poor.

E. R. Rutledge said-. 'l'hree parts of the school were implicated in the

rwt. A. B. was not the ringleader in the business. . . . It is true there was no comfort. E. R.. Rutledge was again asked his opinion, and he bard-

We got on well with all the teachers. 'rhey are all competent. Then 0. G. Philp said-

They are all nice fellows. He supposed that witness expressed his opinion truly. They were all "nice," that was all he cared about, and the principal was not "nice;" that was the whole distinction. Then J. B. Preston said-

As for the principal, as far as I have seen, I do not think he is a clever man at farming. Wha~ a pity th.e Government A Qt1eensland did not dtscover thrs Preston years before, when they were paying Shelton hundreds of pounds pe.r annum to teach the people farming ! Hatl the Government appointed this Preston one of their Pxperts or placed him on the staff of the Agri­cultural College? And if noi·, why not? But ~ere ~as Master Rytledge, again. This young

Dame! come to Judgment," speaking of Pro­fessor Shelton, said-

lie leads you to believe he knows more than he really does.

He hoped the time would come when this won­derful young man would have a seat in this House on the Opposition side, so that he might see through the dark schnn<-"' of hon. members opposite_ No doubt lw winked the other eye, thi~ smart young man who could see through the hypocritical Allleric.J.n profeswr. Then .P. M. Bayley s<tid-

The students have a l>iano, and they could only play on it nn ..::aturday evenings, and often when they wanted. to danc~ tiw professor J1d not seem to care for it. Last term we u~ed to go to t~hnrch on :Sunday. \Ye could not get the black W<.lgGnc-:te, 1he one we came up t.o-day in; bnt "\Ye used to r;et the express wagon. Then the pro­fessor said \VC were damaging it, and we c ·uld not get it. Since then we had not been able to go to church. On Rundav some went fishing, others smoked, and a few wrote up their lectures and exc:rcises. Imagine the impudence of this professor, who wanted those gilded youths to go to church in an express waggon while the "black. wagonette" w J.S allowed to st .. md in the shed ! He had been informed that, though they ostensibly left for church, the majority of them went to the public­house. ·with regard to the evidence given on milking and ploughing·, he might say that he did not think the money of the country should be wasted in teaching your;g- frllows at' the college to milk antl to plough_ His idea of a college was a place where something was taught that co•Jld not be le1rned elsewhere·, but there were plenty of p 1aces all over the country where people c1uld learn to milk and to plough.

Mr. AmrSTROXG: People would rather pay a ploughman who knew his business.

M.r. 8TE\\ ART: One might as well send a person to a university to learn to read as send a person to an agricultural college to learn to milk and plongb. He found that after the Minister had taken the eddence and listened to the criticisms of all the witnesses he called in the principal and questioned him. But why did he not give the principal the opportunity of listen­ing to the evideuce given agaiDst him, the criticisms made with reference to him, and also the opportunity of cross-1 x~uninin~ the witnesses. The professor shortly after this inquiry re-ceived a polite intimation from the department that his rc,1ignation would be we: come, antl he <tccord­ingly resigned his position. He was practically dismis;;ed, and the C mn-ittee hac! a right to know whether he w;cs dislllissed be<':mse of the 1 evelations in connection with this inquiry, or for some other reason-as b<'ing incompetent. Th& hon. gentleman at the head of the depart­ment had said that the professor wa' incompetent, and if he considered him incompetent, he had a right to dismiss him. But, still the professor did not get fair play at the inquiry. He would go further, and my that the whole circumsta,nces warranted the suspicion that some occult infiuence wa•, brought to bear, and that the bringing to bear of this iniiuence resulted in the Jismissill of the profes~or. If the hon. member dismi~sed him because he was noc >Lhle to maintain discipline at the college, he would direct the hon. gentle­man's attention to t!Jq evidence, and ask how any man could possibly maintain discipline with such a set of disorderly young men as those evidently were? If th>tt v.:;'l tile pooi•,Ion takAn up by the hon. gentleman he was •Jot warranted in dismissing the professor ac,1ording to lhe evidence. '!.'here was no evidence that the profeesor was not com­pettnt. HecvulJ. [{et a dnz, n farrnen; to-nlOrrow who would ·av that Professor Shelton knew nothing ahout tanninf,r, and he could get another dozen who would tell him that he knew a great deal about farming. Personally, he was not in a posi­tion to judge, but Professor She! ton h>ed been for seven year~ previously instructor in agriculture, and surely that was sufficient time for the Go­vernment to find out his incompetence. The hon. gentleman said truly that he had not had

155:& Supplff. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl'!f·

an opportunity of dismissing him before-that he had tak~n the first opportunity ; but the whole of the Circumstances surrounding the dismissal were so "fishy" tbat the matter oug·ht to be clf"ared up. Reading between the lines, it ap­peared that the hon. gentleman had c·msciously or unconsciously a bias against the professor, and under all the circumstances it would ha' e been better if some independent person had conducted the inquiry about the riot, and had settled that matter before anything else had been done. He would now refer shortly to Professor Shelton's letter of 23th ,July to the Couria. The first complaint made by the students was that the amount of work demanded under the college rules was excessive. On that the professor said:-

The genm·al rule governing the distribution of students' duties has heen to assign \Vork in fiLld anrl classroom upon alternate days. Under this arrange­ment students. have been divided into two nearly equal groulJS, one dOing two and a-half clays of outsjde work and three days of class 'vork during a given 1veek, and on the week following, three days of field work and two and a-half clays of work in class. The day·s work in the !1-eld amounted to almost exactly eight hours, except In the case of students in charge of teams, whose day·::j work was nine hours. The ordinary run of farmers worked from sunrise to sunset, or from even before sunrise to after sunset, and surely eight hours a day could not be regarded as excessive. The second complaint was that students were held rigidly to the obser­vance of study hours, from 7 to 9'30 p.m. They all knew that the life of a student was not a bed of roses. He had known students worn to shadows when studying for a university degree, The professor, on that point, said-

Stud;v J:ours have meant order, decorum, quiet, about the buildings of evenings, to the end that those students who wished to study might do so. It appeared from that statement that some of the young men had desired to study, but had been interrupted by the rowdy ones who had no such desire .. He. had ~very sympathy with the pro­fessor m his desire to maintain qmet so that those who wi:>hed to acquire knowledge'could do so, and the sympr,thy of the taxpayers of the colony, who found the money for that expensive ln':'ury, would be with the professor in that. The third charge was that the principal frowned upon the sports of the students, and upon innocent pastimes in general. On that the professor said-

From 4 p.m. till 7 p.m. on each day, and on Saturday afternoons, students have entire liberty to play or otherwise use the time ftS pleased them. '

After stating that he had encouraged cricket and th~ establishment of a tennis club, and so on, he said-

The o_nly limitations _ever put upon the sportive tendenCies of the boys IS enrbraced in the idea con­stantly urged upon them that sport is profitable and rig~t as sport, but dangerous to a degree when made a business.

Any reasonable man would agree not only that the students h<tct had ample opportunitieB for sport, but t~at the la~t reflection of the principal ~as one whiCh was nght and proper for him to Impress upon the boys. The fourth complaint was with regard to a-

Great ~nd needless hardship was put upon a student by refusing h1m the use of a horse when sickness in his family called him to his home. The professor's explanation was as follows-

This is one of those half-truths that often go ftut,her than the he outngtlt. 'l'he student in question, whom I should have been glad to favour, asked for the loan of my perso~al horse and buggy, in order that he miO'ht take the tr~nn at Gatton. '".rhis happened in the d~sk of th~ eve~nng. As the horse had been turned out for the n1ght In a, 200-acre paddock, and so could not be found, of course I could not oblige him. The farm fore­man, however, took him into Gatton.

It is said that a lady, the mother of one of the students, was compelled to walk to Gatton in order to take the train to her home. No lady visitor at the college during my administration was ever compelled to walk to the railway station, or received less than hospitable attention. Referring to the Minister the principal said-

The ::\Iinister, on the occasion of his first visit to the coll,'c;e, after his induction to office, was pleased to speak of the great work that had been done in inaugur­ating the college ent~~rpri:-:::c and advancing it to its position. He is reported in the newspapers to have said in suhst.-tncc, on his return to Brisbane, that while originally opposed to the college idea, he had seen enough during his visit to convert him from his old view:, on this que~tion. Here was a rw,ragra;oh 'I hi eh was worthy the attention of the Committee-

Immediately after the brealdng~up of the ~chool, extraordinnry efforts were put forth by friends of the lads who lmd received punishment, looking to the repudiation of l'!JY action by tlle .Jlinister. Failing in this, at first, all efforts sEemed tu have been turned u.gainst me personally. In this propaganda all sorts of influences were enliste(l, including )Jersonal enmity and the envy of disgruntled tf, eh er-'. }1riends in Brisbane warned me that pov .. ~F:-ful influences were at work against me. In HI)' own drawing-room I was thrratened with the enmity of a certain family "as long as you live,'' unless I would do thus and so.

It was a pity that the professor had not given the name of that family, and that he did not publish his letter before, but possibly he had good reasons for delaying its publication. Then he went on to eay-

Shortly after the inquiry I culled upon the Minister twice to learn what progreRS had been nu~ de with the college businesq. On the occasion of my last call, I was told curtly that the college matters wonld be settled on the day following. A few days later I Teeeived from two of the principal officers of tlie dqmrtment a notifi­cation to the etrect that the :Minister required my resignation.

In conclusion, I wish to say that since the 1\flnister's first visit to the college I have newer in any respect b't~en consulted either about the late disturbances, which have been so prominently before the public, or the general admin:stration of affair~ at the college dur­ing my incumbency. l bave sever:tl times been per­mitted to make eonsiderable statements concerning college matters, but have in every ca, .. e, as I remember, been received in almost t:!Omplete s.ilence, and nothing that, I could say seemed to load to further thought on his part. To~day I am absolutely i;:;norant of the charges-if there are such-that have led to the severance of my connection with the public service of the colony. To me this knowledge comes as a great sorrow. Taking the evidence of the teachers, the evidence of the boys, the statement of the professor, and the act of the Minister, he thought they ought to have some explanation as to the real reason of the. professor's disrnis;,al-a' to why he was not admitted to the inquiry, and as to the management of the college generally.

Mr. BATTERSBY had had a good deal to do with Professor Shelton. He travelled with the gentleman when he first came to the colony, and he found that instead of the profes,:or teaching t~Je farmers, he tried to pump thm so that he mi;5ht learn some­thing from them, The Go;ernment had not done wrong in letting him go, but it was a pity that he did not go long ago. With regard to the college at Gatton, he had not a great deal to say against it, A good deal of work had been done there in fencing, erecting Yankee gates, and in buying· a lot of imjolements that were not worth a snap of the finger. There were two wagon~ there, and if the Secre­tary for Agriculture vs·ould take his ad vice he would in~ure them and set fire to them. He had had two rides in them, and if he had to ride in them again he would walk before he did. That was all he had to say about those two-well, he would call them "Yankee wagons." A con­siderable snm of money had been spent in the

Supply. [15 DECEMBER.] Supply. 1553

purchase of the land and in fencing it off, but anybody could be a farmer so long as he had the Treasury at his back. If he had had ·£40,000 he could have secured a very nice piece of land on the Blaclmll Range, and he could have cleared the scrub and would have done far more good as showing what tho'<e lands could do ontHide the Gatton college altogether. He hnt Bd the Go­vernment would not go any further with the expenditurP until they saw what was going to come of the £40,000 they had already expended.

The SEORETARYJ!'OR AGRICULTURE: It was necessary, perhaps, that he should S!\)"

something in reply to the criticism, of the hon. member.s for Rockhampton North and Moreton. He had been waiting to see if any oi her hon. members de>ired to speak on the snhject. He had nothing to add to what he said some m0nths ago in this House. The hon. member for Rock­hampton said that he had been biased in the matter, and there was no use in replying to a man who held that view of his position. The hon. member had made up his mind on the point, and nothing he could say would satisfy the hon. member, who had char"ed him with a serious offence-for it was an offence for the head o£ a large public department to go into an inquiry biased on one oide or the other. He need not repeat what he had Raid on the previous .occasion, but he might refer to one or two things which had occurred since. At the time of the inquiry, which he had not edited, Mr. Shelton was in charge nf the college, and he was not charged with anything. It was an inquiry which took place in the ordinary course of his administration, and it had never for a moment been thought at the time that it was a thing that would get into public life. After making every possible inquiry, he found-to the best of his knowledge and belief-that Mr. Shelton had not thot'e attainments and that par­ticular form of ability which would make him a successful administrator of the college. It would have been very much easier for bim to have said, "Let him remain there and lut mv successor bear the brunt of the thing." But it was his duty to do what he thought right, unpleasant a~ it wa,. Did anyone think for a moment that he was overjoyed in asking Mr. Shelton to leave? On the contran, to him it had been a most painful task, but one he did because he thought it his duty. He had one or two words to add since he spoke last, for four or five months bad elapsed, and he might say that the pre,ent work of that college left him without a single regret that l'llr .. Shdton had left the charge of it. He felt that :he "-ork was now better done, and that discipline w:l-­truly enforced amongst the otndents. The hon. member for Rockhampton North had said that they were a lot of undisciplined cubs or swells; but now at night silence prevailed, and such a thing as a lad breaking the bounds of the colleg-e was not known. He knew that in one pa.rticular he had committed a grave error, one that reflected solely upou himself, but it was owing to the kindness of his heart. In the kindness of his h~art he let 1\Ir. Shelton know he would be allowfd to resign, hut be saw now that he ought to have told him th:tt he had no confidence in him, and that he had better go. He thought to him,-elf he would do that man harn1 by di.:;1ni~sing him, so he wonld let him resign, and allege any rt "'"0.1 ]Je liked, and he himself would have been "muw,"

Mr. GRIMES was sorry the hon. member for Rockhampton North Ltd taken up so much time with matters that were not relcsant. \Vith reference to the dismissal of Professor Shelton, the Minister stated on one occ~'l.Sion tktt he brought no charge against the professor, and that he did not call upon him to resrgn. Now the

1898-5 0

hon. gentleman said he was sorry he did ask him to resign, that he ought to have dismissed him. \Vhv should Professor Shelton be dismrssed instead? \V as an officer to be dismissed from a responsible position without any reason being given? There was a great deal of sympathy with Profes~or Shelton on account of the way he had been treated, and there was a strong feeling abroad that biu>" against the Professor was at the bottom of the request for him to resign. The hon. gentleman had made a comparison between Profe,,or Shelton and the present occupant of the office, and said that everything was going on all right now ; but those who hrcd to do with a large number of men and boys knew tha:, although things might be running smoothly nocv at the c >llege, it might be ::tt the sacrifice of the ·best interests of the institution and the usefulness of the students. It wa" very easy for a principal who would let the students have their own v. ay to be reckoned a jolly fellow and the right sort of man for the position. It WJ1S because Professor Shelton insisted upon proper rules being kept, and work being done instead of play, that he incurred the dislike of the students. It was very evident from portions of the evidence that such was the c:tse, and bar! the profeodor only relaxed his dicipline a bit, and allowed the boys to have their own way and the amusements they wantecl, there would have been no disturbance. The professor was right in taking the stand he took as the head of the institution. He wanted to make it useful, and he was going the right way to do it. It might have gone against the grain o£ the students a bit to have the rules enforced as they were, but everyone who knew anything about the management of boys would sympathise to a very large extent with the profes­sor. The Minister said he had no bias against Pro­fessor Shelton, but some of his public utterances would show that he had. At the Cleveland Show, which was held shortly after this affair happened, the hon. gentleman, in responding to the toast of the Ministry, was reported to have said-

~Iinisters often had hard duties. Take any of them­the Minister for Agriculture, for instance. An expert wag engaged to teach the far)llers. '£he farmers had not a great opinion of his abiUties. They said the J'Uiuh;ter 'vas employing a useless man at a high salary. The :Minister decidP 1 to Jet him go, but immediately he did so the public turned round and said the man had been badly treatecl. That was one o! the difficulties ):finisters had.

It was very evident from those remarks that it was because of some of the public complaining of the inefficienQy of the m11n, and had nothing to do with the college> affair. He knew that amongst some fa1men there was a feeling against Professor Shelton, but as a turner of forty years experience he fearlessly said that if the ideas ot Professor Shelton had been carried out in Queens­land the position of the farmers would be very mur.h improved. He looked upon Professor Shelton as an efficient practical farmer, and that was shown by the W'Jrk done at the college while he was there. It w1s evident that there was a fee· ling against Professor She! ton long before this riot at the hrm, and no doubt it was very pleasing to some that he had been called upon to retire fnJlu his position. A great injustice had been done to Professor Shelton in regard to his dismbsal, awl it wa" not to the credit of the dep,rtment or of the Minister.

Mr. AR:\ISTRONG : The hon. member for Oxle,,- had on all occ-;sions proved himself one of the staunche"t friends Professor Shelton had, and it was to the credit of the hon. member that he chould stand up for his friend. But he would ask the hon. member how it was that when the Minister called upon the professor to resign, he

1554 Suppl?f. [ASSEMBLY.] Swpply.

had not demanded an inquiry~ That could he claimed by any officer. The hon. member had asked for an instance of incompetence on Profe,sor Shelton's part. The whole administra­tion of Professor Shelton went to prove his ncapacity, ali hough it was hard to mention

specific instances. He (:\fir. Armstrong) lived within a mile of the college, and could say that the farmers in his district-many of whom had raised themselves without Government money at their backs-laughed at ~ome of the work carried on by Professor Shelton at the college. He had tried to put into practice at the college some of the theories he brought from America, and they had proved an r• bsolute failure. He would mention one. The hon. member for Rockhampton North thought that the h•lys should not have been asked to give their opinion of Professor Shelton's "ork, but there were no cuter human beings in the world than boys between sixteen and twenty-three years of age. The professor explained to the students the advan­tage of stooking maize when it arrived at the milky stage of Its growth. He s;,id that the maize would mature on the stalk, and the stalk would become useful for fodder purposes. The professor stooked some eighty or lOO acres of maize, and it was a most beautiful failure, because the principal did not carry out his own theory. He allowed the maize to lie there at a time when, according to the evidence, the dairy stock were giving a very small yield of milk. · Mr. W. THORN: 'That was the fault of the manao:er of the cattle.

Mr:· ARM:STROKG: If h were principal of the college he would not allow his stock to starve when he had feed there for them,

Mr. W. THORN: How do you know that he never ordered the manager nf the cattle to give it to the stock?

Mr. ARMSTRONG : He would give another instance. An area of sixty or seventy acres on the north-west side of the farm, after· being ploughed and prepared for a crop, was allowed to grow a crop of weeds, which had been allowed to •·eei, with the resu!t that the farm foreman would be unable to eradica.te the weeds for years. It took a large number of circumstances to make up a certnin result. There might he some who would blame the Minister for taking such strong action, but the one thing for which he might be blamed-as he himself had admitted­was that he had not told Professor Sheltnn that his work was. not being properly carried out, and tell him that his services were no longer required. With regard to discipline, the discipline at present was absolute, and the boys did_the work they were asked to do. .

Mr. '-N. THORN: They may be the bosses of the institution now.

Mr. ARMSTRONG: The discipline was very different to what it was under Professor Shelton. The present principal insisted on having the work done, anrl. the students !mew that be was capable of enforcing his orders, which was not the case with Professor Shelton. In dealing with such an institution they had to remember the nature of the material they had to work upon. Professor Shelton tried to treat young men of from eighteen to twenty-three years of age as if they were school children, and in order to keep them well in hand they had to be treated as something more advanced than ordinary schoolboy~. The hon. member for Rockhamnton Xorth said that the college should not he looked upon as a plac" to learn milking and plon<;hing. It was hardly worth replying to that, becauRP, if the hon. mfmber knew anything about "griculture he would know that the first necessity of agri­culture was to get proper work done in ploughin1". TherE> was one matt.er which he sbonld llke to mention for the consideration of the Minister :

They were now educating a certain number of youths at the college, and had a large number of experts, not only at the college but also dis­tributed through the ~olony. He thought something might be done in the way of training young men in such a way that they might be sent to other countries to acquire that knowledge which they now imported experts to impart to agriculturists. They ought, in fact, to produce their own experts, as was done by Japan and other countries. Possibly that could not be done at present, but they might work up to it. Another matter to w hi eh he desired to call attention was the ·salary of the principal of the college. Professor Shelton recehed £750 a year, but the preoent occupant of the office received only £400. Mr. Mahon was paid only £300 a yea·r and travellmg expenses when in charge of. the travelling dairy, and it might be thnught that £100 a year was a sufficient increase, but seeing that he did the work quite as well 88 it was done by Professor Shelton, if not very much better, he thought he should be paid more than £400.

Mr. GL.lSSEY: He gets a house as well. Mr. ARM STRONG: And so did Profe;;sor

Shelton. Moreover, Mr. Mahon had to incur some expense in entertaining visitors to 'the college. and though he received an allowance it would not cover that expendit1ue. He he!d that Mr. Mahon was entitled to a larger salary, and hoped that next year the Minister would put a substantial increase on the Estimates.

Mr. GROOM was almost sorry that when the papers with regard to the inquiry into the dis­turbance at the college were laid on the table of the House he did not tnble a substantive motion, so that this matter might have received fuller discussi@n than it was likely to receive in the limited time at their disposal this evening. He understood that the Government desired to pass not only the Agricultural Estimates hut the whole ot the Estimate,, for the Education Depart­ment this evening, and would therefore not say a great deal of what he should like to S>lY· He had always been a strong advocate for the for­mation and foundation of the college. It had been one of the ideals of his life, and he should not like now to say anything that could possibly injure the institutinn. On the con­trary, now that it was established he should like to see it fostered and made of some gr,od, but the publication of the report of this inquiry haJ clone it an irreparable injury, from which it would take it a long time to recover, if it ever would recover. Tbe Minister stated at the college last Saturday that there was a disinclina­ti< ,n on the part of farmers to get their sons to compete for the bursaries which had been estab­lished. He (Mr. Groom) knew that there was a di"inclination on the part of farmers to send their sons to the college. He had urged them to do so, but they said the college was only intended for the sons of rich men, that the farming that was taught there was too extravagant, and that a man could not mal;e a living on his farm .if he adopted the methods taught at the col­lege. He knew that the Minister was not in favr•nr of extravagant farming, arid that if he had his own way he would prefer something on the lines followed by the Oauadian Government. The experimmtal stations establi"hed in C.o.nada hnd been of more benefit to agriculture through­out tLe Dominion than perhaps all tbe agri­cultural colleges on tt,e coLtinent of Europe had been to the yc,uth there. ThoHe experimental stations were not agricultural college", with a proffssor at £750 a year and a staff of experts more or less competent. :Farmers went there from the outside districts and saw with their own eyes how things were done, and then went back- and practised them on their own

Supply. [15 DECEMBER.] Supply. 1555

farms; Wheats were brought from different coun­tries, and farmers were shown which had the most nutriment, and which were best for commc>rcial purposes. Seed was supplied to them at a dollar or 1 ~ or 2 dollars a bushel, and everything was carried uut on >cientific principled. He w<.s not going to weary the Committee with quotations from the evidence taken at the inquiry •1t the Gat ton College, which he had re ,d with a great deal of regret, but he must say that some of the teachers who were subordinate to Professor Shelton were not loyal to him. Not only had he a lot of unruly boys to deal with, but the very subordinates of. the institution were apparently encouraging those boys to rebel against the principal.

Mr. LEAHY : Is there any evidence of that? Mr. GROOM: There was strong evidence of

it. One man in particular, Mr. Herman Schmidt, ajJpeared to have set his back up against the profe,sor.

Mr. LEAHY: I don't recollect it, and I was there.

Mr. GROOM: He would let the Committee hear what that gentleman said. And bear in mind those boys had refused to obey orders, and were impudent and unruly. It was evident that their home live" had not been of a restrain· ing or refining character, and when they got to the college they expected to have a larger freedom.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : There were really only two or three bad boys.

Mr. GROOM: This was what Mr. Schmidt said-

! get on well with the boys. They are a first-rate lot. During the college year the conduct h' sgone back since the last six months. "\Vhen I came here first they were a charming lot of fellow~. For the first six months after the college openecl the conduct wa.> good, then dis­cipline lessened, and the last three wecli:S it was per­fectly unbearanv~. I have suffered a good deal of ill­health through it. I have tl'ied to ke>·p orrler. I want order. It is no use trying to teach anything unless there is order. Discipline is the first thing. 'fhere should be, first of all, a set of rules. ThP.re arc no rules here. In his first speech here the pr0fe%or sa1d he did not believe in rules. ·when he went to the J.Iichigan Agricultural College there was only one rule, ~· act like a man, or go,·• and he thought that was quite enough rules for anybody. But I con...,ider in an e'3tablishment like this tbere must be rules, and punishments too-in any establislur..ent, even in Oxford and Cambridge. I \vas speaking to :!I.Ir. ltoe, of the Grammar School, the other day, and he told 1ne, too, you must have some punishment. Deduct their play hour, or make them do more work. 'fhe boys must know there h; more power over them. Unless thev know tllis, You cannot rule. There must br rules, aiid these ruleS mu~t be sy+tem­atically carried out. If you have no rules the boys will sa;y, u I did not know," "I did not know.'J

With regard to the unsympathetic manner of the principal, I live on the place, and I think he is un­sympathetic to everybody. There was not that kindly, friendly, generous, liberal feeling whil'h you would expect from anybody Who is in charge of young hoys, or anyone else. He does not seem to take the iuterest in theirJeal progress. amusements, happiness, aod well­being that he ought to. The boys generally sa} t11ey dislike him. Some of the masters are brought in con­tact with the boys during their private time tar more than they ought to, and we ~cannot help overhearing things sometimes. My bedroom ls next 'to their smok.­ing-room. They l' ·.me from their smokiug-1100m and spread all over the veranda, so that I am compelled to overhear conversations, so that on several oc"asions I bave had to go. out and desire tllem not to speak as they did. ·rhe principal is certainly disliked, an·t I think this dislike is owing to his manner. It is the nature of the man. I do not think the man knows he is uukind -perhaps he fancie~ himself the es~'ence of lnndness. It is his psychological constitution. Mr. Pitt, on the other hand, Htid he had not seen the principal unsympathetic, and he had al w>tys seemed to him to treat the Lays kindly and courteously.

Mr. LEAHY : There is nothing in what you have quoted so far to show that the teachers were' disloyal, or that they incited the boys to rebellion.

Mr. GROOM: There was evidence which disclosed a want of unity of feeling,

Mr. LEAHY : "Disloyalty" y{m said. Mr. GROOM would put it at disloyalty.

There appeared to be dis'loyalty on the part of the subordin:.tes to Professor Shelton, and Mr. Pitt appeared to be the only man who expressed a kindly feeling about him. It was pretty well known that he had himself some doubt as to whether Professor She! ton was a competent man to teach the farmers of Queensland the great principles of agriculture scientific.ally or other· wise. Practical farmers had told him that they had received valuable inform•,tion from that gentleman, but others smiled at his methods of agriculture. But they were dealing with him as the princir,al of the college. They had often been told that he had had no opportunity of displaying his ability, and that he should be given a place like the college to give him an opportunity to show the practical and theoretical knowledge he pas· sessed, He would be sorry to say a word that would do any injury to the college, as he wished to see it successfu1, and hoped the arrangements now made would ensure success. Reference had been made to the salary of thf> late professor; but it should be remembered that it was a con· tract salary. He was brought out on an agree· rneht for three years at a salary of £700; the engag~ment was renewed and had not expired when he went to the college.·

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTl'RE : I think "'· He was brought out in 1890 on an agree· ment for three years, that was renewed in 1893, and in 1896 hA was engaged for another year.

Mr. GROOM: And the cond.itions of the original contract were observed.

Mr. ARliiSTRONG : His salary was increased to .£750.

:\fr. GROOM: He understood that, in addi· tion to Mr. Mahon, there was another officer at a sahrv assisting to do the work that Professor Sheltoii did. If so, one was receiving .£400 a ye<1r and another .£250 a year, and there were two doing the work Professor Shelton used to do.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: That was not the case. Mr. Shelton received the salary the hon. gentleman stated. The secretary was suppooed to be the natural science rna~ter, Mr. Schmiclt. He did a certain amount of the secretarial W('rk, and a certain amount was done by Mr. Shelton's daughter, for which she received payment. Now a man had been sent at .£f50 a vear, in addition to his existing salary as editor '(,f the Agricultural Journal, to do the secretarial work. The di~erenCP was really £25 a year.

Mr, GROOM was pleased to get that informa· mation. He entirely agreed with the sugges­tion made hy the hon. member for Lockyer that a pnze should be offered to the students to enable on"' or more of them to travel three years in Amenc.t and on the continent of .Europe to learn everything connec'ed with scientific farming;. His visits to agricultural colleges on the conti· nent were object lessons to him, and he was convinced that if a young man fresh from the Gatton Collt"ge spent three y<>ars visiting the colleges in America and }<;urope he· would come back w1th his mind full of inscrnctive informa· tion that might lead to a very considerable amount of good. It was only right to sa:y- that he believed Mr. Mahon posses;erl the confidence of the outside public, That was a great thing, because it not only encouraged him in his wor-k, but led to an increase in the number of students.

1556 t.upply. · [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. DANIELS : Though Profes~or Shelton apparently did not have a fair trial, he was one of those who never did believe that Professor Shelton was a man in the .right place when brought here to instruct the farmers how to farm. ·when he was here he was always talking of the splendid soil and climate, and the thousands of pounds the farmers ought to be able to make. But he noticed that when Pro­fessor Shelton left the service he did not start farming in Qucmsland him·elf. If he was such a great expert his right cour-e when he left the service was to start farming here himself. There were very few farmers on the Darling Downs who had any opinion of him at all. He would go to an agricultnml show, get two farmers to argue a poiut, a ,d notice which got the best of the argument, and at the next show he attended he would give that man's opinion as his own. He told the farmers on the Downs that they should not pull the suckers off the maize, with the result that some of the farmers had been swearing ever since. They tried it, and got no crops. He al~o told them not to hill their pot.atoes, and different other things. With regard to his management, he had received an invitation to the 1-Vestbrook experimental farm to see the wonderful silo stack. Al·out 200 or 300 tons of panicum had been stacked. He saw it the week it was built, and offered to wager anyone that it would rot away by the time it was to be opened. IJe always strongly opposed the college scheme, and advocated going in for experimental farms, placing Professori::lhelton in charge of one of them to see if he could manage it and make it pay. If he could have done so he would ha>·e been th0 right man in the right place. But having been given an opportunity at the college of showing what he could do, it had been found that he did not know as much ahont farm­ing as he had been given credit for. He was surprised that it had taken the Government so long to find. this out. In 1893 or 1894 he (Mr. Daniels) spoke on the S«me lines e,s he was now doing, and 1ilembers of the Ministrv stated that Professor Shelton was one of the bsst farmers they were likely to have in the colony. But now the bubble had burst, and he was not far out after all. The pr·~sent principal was get­ting £400 a year, a!ld had a good house, so that he w .:ts fairly comfortable, and if he showed that he was able to manage the in­stitution well, he would in time probably receive more. He had proved himself one of the best dairy expert~ they had ever had, but he made no pretence of being a pastmaster in all branches of agriculture. He believc<l tbat Mr. Mahon was as good a principal as they eould have. W.ith regard to maintaining discipline, he was rather a nice fellow personally, but if any of the students gave him any impudence he wae able to use his hands, and being about fourteen stone weight, and a smart, active fellow, they would be chary about giving him impudence. '£hough ProfeP'Or Shelton might not have had such a fair trial as he might have had, he believed that he had been dischnrgecl becausn the Minister had found out­what had been known to the farmers long ago­that he did not know as much as he pretended to know, and that he was not good enough to pay £700 a year for.

Mr. KEOGH w:ts very sorry to see the turn the matter had taken. He did not know any­thing with regard to Profeo,sor Shelton's com­petence except what he had heard from other people, who might not themselvc'< beg •od judges of bis competence. He consid<•rcd that the namrs of the n,uthors of the di~turbance at the college should have been given. If they were given, he believed it would be found th'at the culprits were young cubs of fellows who had gone up from Brisbane. They were not afraid

of their fathers or mothers, and thought that when they went to the college they would have a free leg, and did everything they could to kick up ro'Ns.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : One of · them is now engaged in the useful occupation of driving a sanitttry cart in South Brisbane.

Mr. KEOGH: The profes•.or did not do his duty under those circumstance~, because he should have punished. those parties more severely than he did. He would not go into the quf'.,tion a" to whet.her he under.;tood his busineEs or not, because he had reason to believe that he was only a theorist, but he brought very good credentials from America. He might mention that they had another specialist from America in connection with tobacco growing, and now that they had put an excise duty upon tobacco, and people might stop growing it, it was possible that he might beputdownas a man who knew nothing about tobacco growing. It would have been a gru.Lt deal better if the Government had given Professor Shelton an opportunity of e.:.ying what he wished to say; as he did not at all agree that the Secretary for Agriculture and the hon. me m· ber for Bulloo should examine the children, and leave the principal of the college outside. That was not British fair play·; they certainly should have allowed Professor Shelt·Jll to hear what was said e,gainst him, so that he might have defended himself before they condemned him.

Mr. STORY: Do you ah,ay< give a man chance to reply before you condemn him?

Mr. KEOGH : Could the hon. member point to a case in which he had not clone so? He did not think the hon. member who made that insinuation could prove that he ever did a dirty action to any man .

.Mr. STORY : Y on said the registrar at Cunna­mulla was guilty of a dirty action, before you heard what he had to say,

Mr. KEOG H : He had no doubt that a dirty action had been committed upon t11at occasion.

The CHAIRMAN: I trust the hon. member for Rosewood will confine hin,self to the ques­tion, although he can hardly be blamed for replying to an interjection that came from the other side. ·

Mr. KEOGH: He was sorry he had strayed from the track ; but he \\'Is quite prepared to defend himself, and was not frightened of the hon. member for Balonne. He had not been at the colle,;e since the pre ent principal had been in charg-.e, but he believed he was a good man and carried out his duties properly. With regard to his salary, of course his predece>sor came here under a contract with the Government and re­ceived £700"' year, but if the Committee thought the salary of the preocnt officer was not sufficient no doubt tbe Secretary for Agriculture would see his wa.y t•J increase it next year. He would like to know whether the salary carried mtions with it. Of course, the principal had the house.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : It is the same as before.

l\1r. KEOGH: He snppo•ed he couJ.d have the ""e of the vegetables grown on the farm, as also did the other officers.

The SECRETARY ~'OR AGHICcLTURE: A number of them received rations. but no house. The mathematical master and the horticulturist receive nothing, but the others who are bachelors do. The farm foreman has a house.

Mr. KEOG H : Did the item for" inciden~als" include payment for rations?

'l'be SECRETARY POR AGRICULTcRE: And the payment of Home wages.

1\lr. KEOG H hat! "em by a report in the pubhc Press, that it was stated by Mr. Mahon, at Gatton, la•t Saturday, that the college would becume self-supporting in a couple of years. Was tlfat the opinion of the Minister ?

Suppl,y. [15 DECEMBER.] . Suppty. 1557

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: I have no means of judging.

Mr. KB;QG H: Could the hon. gentleman !l'ive them any idea of the amount that had been received from the sale of produce grown at the college? . , The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Very little m deed.

Mr. KEOGH: Was it the intention of the department to put th~t produce on the market in competition with the produQe grown by farmers?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : It is not intended to sell it locally.

Mr. KEOGH was not opposei to the sale of the produce grown on the college farm, but he did not think it should come into competition with the produce of farmers. He hardly thought the college would become self-supporting. As he had stated previously he was not a supporter of the college, bec:;use he considered that the ex­penditure which it involved was much more than the country could afford.

The CHAIRMAN: I would remind the hon. member that the college is now established. The question before the Committee is a vote of £6,201 for the college, and I trust that he will confine his remarks to that question.

Mr. KEOG H would try to confine his remarks within the limits prescribed by the Chairman, but if he had overstepped the rules of debate, other hon. members had al~o transgressed.

The CHAIRMAN : I must correct the hon. member. I do not think any hon. member who has spoken on this question to-night has departed from the vote for the Agricultural College.

Mr. KEOG H: Surely it was not out of order for him to say that he never was in bvour of the college, simply on the ground that he did not believe it would be of any good to bona .fidefarmers. Three-fourths of the students at the college were the sons of Brisbane merchants, barristers, or solicitors, and they would hardly become farmers. Farmers would not send their sons to the college.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: You are trying to do all you can to spoil the 'college.

Mr. KEOGH: He was doing nothing of the kind, but he repeated that he had seen no benefit derived from the college. The students who were taught there would not be able to cultivate the land on the same lines as were followed at the college, because they would not be able to buy the expensive machinery required. Very little of the land at the college wlls fit for agri­culture. The greater part of it was under water in flood time, and the lower portion was nothing but a bed of melon holes. So far as dairying was concerned it might do very well, but he did not believe the college would do any practical good.

Mr. SMITH : It appeared to him that Pro­fessor Sbelton's qualifications had not received the consideration they should have received during the discussion. He was brought to the colony as an expert, and at the time it was supposed that he pos~essed all the qualifications n.ecessary for the position. The Executive at the t1me took every step they could take to ensure that the best man would be brought out, and no doubt they thought they had succeeded in their pnrpose. Professor Shelton should certainly have had an opjJortunity of replying to the charges made against him.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICUTLURE: Hear, hear ! So he could if he had asked.

Mr. SMITH: He replied through the Press, but he did not think that the proper course. He should have had an opportunity of replying before the Minister there and then, but on the face of it Professor Shelton had a grievance in not having had that privilege. It was possible that the Minister had satisfied himself thoroughly that Mr. Shelton was not the man for the posi·

tion, but so far as the evidence went, if Mr. Shelton should have been discharged he had been discharged at an inopportune time. Those boys should have been brought under dis­cipline. The idea <hould never h'1ve been allowed to gain credence that they had only to rebel and present a petition to overcome all difficulties and get their profeilsor dismissed. He wished to ask the Minister if there waH any­thing in the regulations of the college which provided for the admission of students from foreign countries or from the other colonies ? He knew of the case of a gentleman who came from British Columbia with his son, and entered the college for instruction in colonial ft>,rming. The gentleman was not long in the college, and was told that his presence was no longer required. He believed the reason given was that the rules of 'the college did not admit of mature or adult students finding a place there. He would like to know if that was the case? He believed thi8 gentleman and his ~on had left the college. He thought it was an honour to the college that a gentleman of such attainments should want to put the finishing touch on his education by gomg to Gatton.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: It was never intended that persons of a mature aga should be entered as students at the college.

Mr. S·rEPHENS: \Vhat was his age?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: He did not know; but this man had a large family ranging from twenty-eight years down­wards. Mr. Kelsey was introduced to the department by the hon. member for Bowen. He wanted the position of honorary librarian. He was an Imperial pensioner. In the course of a conversation he had with Mr. Kelsey he offered to take him to the college as a visitor, and when he next went there he found Mr. Kelsey already installed. It was not too much to say that he had misrepresented matters to the principal, and there was some difficulty in gettmg rid of him. He was almr>st daily writ­ing letters to members of the Ministry, and he might be permitted to read one from the corre­spondence he had in his hand, which had been laid on the table. This was written ou the 26th August, 1898, and was headed ".ill:essrs. Shelton, Skertchly, and Henry \Vatson"-

1. 'rhe above capable Anglo-Celtiq Science men have been lately routed out of the public service of Queens­land, and it is time to check the methods used.

2. Anyone with a knowledge of peoples and races can gather from page 3 of the College Calendar, and from two words in Profe&,'10l' Shelton's l0ttmo, dated July, some clues.

3. i\'Ir. She1ton was ,; rais d" in the States. His taking service under our flag indicates that he was

·one of the class of Americans who are friendly to Britishers, and antqgonistic to the "whitewashed" Yankees-i.e., Latin-Yanks, ~,enian-Yauks, and Teuton­Yanks, the last being far more bitter and deadlier enemi0-:; to 3Ir. Bull than the Fenians, many of whom are honest.

4. 1\iy pm•sonal knowled~e of the United States is restricted to broken periods of residence, dating from the lively time when Heenan fought Sayers, up to the end of 1896; and covers States lying between New Orleans and the Lake•, and between the Hub and 'Frisco.

5. l can give data as to the methods by which :Messrs. S. Skertchly and Henry 1Vatson were worried ont of the public service of Queemland. :l'Ir. H. Watson was a F .I. C., London, and A.I.:\1.~1., London; also had cliplomas from Clausthal and from Freib::mrgh, and Victoria University, England. .;\.. very good agricul~ tural chemist, "\Vater analyst, and assayist, and has held good posts in Chilian mines. He should have got the chemist's post at Gatton.

Mr. S. Skertchly's science testimoninJs and work are of the highest order ; I can give details. He is a courteous and charming lecturer. and would have a splendid influence over students and Anglo-Celtic

1558 Supply. :[ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

miners and farmers, and has the free and open way characteristic of the be•t cla"' of Britishers. He is not a clerk, nor a busbman, nor a tTader.

He once ventured to advise :1 superior Teuton scientist " to go and buy a primer on geology." lt has taken his late colleagues a long time . to chew Skertchly's last report; it will be out in a few days, and the depl><'tment will be good enough to ask tbe public 7s. 6d a copy.

I repeat that the music of the Teuton Band was too much for the worried nerves of Shelton, Skertchly, and VVatson, and these bands are a terror to British scientists when studying. ..

We give the most unbounded hospitality under our flag to 'l'eutons. I have nothing to say against them as settlers or traders; but ask any British or American sailor how he likes 'l'euton bo~.ses. German thought and act are antagonistic to all that the Anglo-Celt cherishes.

We owe no reverence to any Teutons except to the two Kaisers and their families i buJ:. on the 7th in.-;tant we crowded into a Brisbane hall to honour the memory of the Teuton Prince who for years tormented the best­natured Lady in Europe, daughter and widow of two of the noblest Teutons, Albert and Frederic the Good.

J. F. KEL~J<;Y.

He read this to show the exceedingly difficult man Mr. Kelsey wao to deal with. This was one of a long series of letters written by the same gentleman.

Mr. Gr,ASsEY : Did Mr. Kelsey apply for admission as a student and pay his money, and was his money accepted?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Mr. Kelsey was informed by the department in Brisbane that be could not be received as a student; but he went to Gatton and informed the principal that he w:~s to go there. He was admitted, but the principal gave him no receipt for his money-there was no time to do so. Eventually a receipt was given for his son's fees, and he was informed that the balance in excess of that amount would be returned on application to the department in Brisbane:

Mr. GLASSEY: He did not say that .Mr. Kelsey should have been accepted as a student, but it was rather unfortunate that his money should have been accepted and not returned.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : He will not take it back.

Mr. GLASSEY: He gathered from some bon. members that Mr. Kelsey was rather advanced in age, and that that was a bar to his acceptance as a student. He hoped such was not the case, because he believed if a man was sound in mind he should be admitted, irrespective of age.

The SECRETARY FORAGRICULTURE: In the calendar, where much of the work was for young fellows, it would be impossible for people of mature agB to carry it out.. Under a new calendar it would be possible to specialise, and then mature students would be admitted.

Mr. GLASSEY thought the Minister was in error in not permitting Professor Shelton to be present at the inquiry, although he would not say that the hon. gentleman rlid not act wisely in asking the professor to tender his resignation. He had gone through the evidence most care­fully, and notwithstanding the fact that he had been a loyal supporter of Professor Sbelton since be came to the colony, yet he thought the Minister could have tak.en no other course than the one he did in asking Professor Shelton to resign. The balance of evidence was unquestion­ably against Professor Shelton, and it was time that he and the college sep >rated-if a reason­able amount of the evidence was true.

Mr. LEAHY : Do you not think that the pro­fessor's presence would have tended to the supression of evidence?

Mr. GLASSEY: He did not think so. If the feeling was anything like as intense as alleged, the evidence would have been forthcoming whether Professor Shelton was present or not. He had only further to say that the opinions

expressed by the hon. members for Rockhampton North and Ros0woud were not his opinions. He disagreed with them very much.

The SECRETARY. FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION : It was gratifying that the Government had· the Yaluable support of the leader of the Opposition, who had come to the conclusinn that the time had come when Pro­fessor Sbelton should go. The hon. member di.~a"reed with the hon. member for Rosewood, who

0

could filld nothing in the report except testimony in favour of Professor Shelton.

lUr. GLASSEY: I differ with him with regard to the value of the institution.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: At all events the institution existed, and it was not now economical of time. to discms whether it should exist. The hon. member also had the. misfortune to differ with the hon. member for Toowoomba. He n:ight mention that he had just intimated to the hon. member for Toowoomba that he would have occasion to refer to hiw, but-as US\lal on such occasions-the hon: member was absent. Having thrown down a challenge he bolted whenever it was- taken up. He had no doubt that the hon. member would report that he had taken advantage of his absence, and that was why he had inbrmed the hon. member of his intention to speak. The hon. member had on this occasion come to the conclusion that Pro· fessor Sbelton had not been properly treated. So long as t.he hon. member did not hold a portfolio, or get some valuable consideration for himself, he would alwaya take an unfavourable view of anyone who might be in office.

Mr. GLASSEY: You mignt expect me to come to the same conclusion.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION' had a much higher opinion of the hon. member than he had of the hon. member for Toowoomba. Of course the hem. member for Toowoomba would find fault with anything he might say, perhaps with anything that his col­league might say. On the present occasion--as his colleag-ue bad charge of the Estimates-the hon. member took up the case of Professor Shelton. At the same time he informed them that he had come to no distinct conclusion with regard to the merits nf Professor Shelton. He said that he had his doubts That was rather a doubtful thing to say. An bon. member who posed as the representative of the whole of the Downs should have some definite conclusion as to the merits or demerits of Professor i::lhelton as an agriculturist. The hon. member practically said that some people said he was a good man, and otbNs said he was not ; so that the hon. member, resting on the opinions of others, and tendering none of his own, was perfectly safe. He had stated that, while exonerating Professor Shelton, his officers had been disloyal, and that be was going to prove it, but, unless he proved it in the columns of the Toowoomba Chronicle, he would never prove it. The hon. member never proved anything in this Chamber, where he had to meet his fellow men face to face in a fair arena. He had read the testimony of Mr. Schmidt to prove that the officers at the college had· been disloyal to the professor,and that they had incited the boys to rebellion, but he had not brought for­ward one tittle of evidence to prove his charges. In his anxiety to make an attack on the Secretnry for Agriculture, he had really argued in fa,·our of the dismissal of the whole of the college staff for disloyalty and inciting the boys to rebellion. That was a most extraordinary position to take up, and the hon. member had not appeared conscious in the least of the con­clusion which bad necessarily to be drawn from what he said. It was evident that Mr. Schmidt gave his evidence reluctantly, but he was

Supply. [15 DECEMBER.] Supply. 1559

bound to tell the truth, and that evidence in no way proved the charge which the hon. member for Toowoomba had made against the

fficers of the college. The chief co.mplaint of the boys was that Profe'<sar Shelton was unable to teach them anything they wanted to le:trn­that they could learn nothing practical there­ami it was natural enough under the ch·cum­stances to feel disc<l!ltent. In saying that, he was in no way endeavouring . to extenuate the way in which it was alleged they had shown dis­content. The leader of the Opposition con­sidered that Professor Shelton should have been present when the boys were giving their evidence, but that would not have been per­mitted in a court of justice. The professor had, however, been supplied with a written report of what had taken place. If the bon. member had chosen to take up exactly the opposite line of argument and Professor Shelton had been allowed to be present, he might have asked whether boys could be expected to tell exactly what had occurred in the presence ot the principal, when they did not know that he might .not remain their principal. No charge against the schoolmaster should be inquired into in the presence of the master.

Mr. BoLES: They were not boys ; they were men twenty-two years of age.

Thn SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: Some were mere lads. The most important point was that when it was hinted indirectly to Professor Shelton that he. should resign he had at once resigned, instead of asking for an inquiry. That was an evidence of weakness. It was letting judgment go by · default. It was absurd to suppose that all the teachers were disloyal, and that the boys broke out into rebellion at the same time, without any cause whatever. The greater the number of persons who were di~affected, the stronger the presumption against Professor Shelton. If neither the teachers nor the boys could get on with Professor Shelton, it was a reason why a change should be made, and Pr<l­fessor Sbelton's action in resigning without demanding an inquiry was tantamount to an admission that he bad not been getting on well, and probably had better terminate his connection with the college.

At twenty minutes past 11 o'clock, The CHAIRMAN : In accordance with

Standing Order No. 171, I call upon the hon member for Ipswich, Mr. Stephenson, to relieve me in the chair. ·

Mr. S·rEPHENSON took the chair accordingly. Mr. G RIMES wished to make a few remarks

in reference to what was said by the hon. mem­ber for Lockyer, who gave what he considered proofs of the fact that Professor Shelton had no practical knowledge of farming. One of his mstances was to the effect that Mr. Shelton had a lot of corn in stooks,. and it was allowed to remain in the field. It was well known that where Professor She!ton came from it was the common practice to cut maize wh(J,n it was pretty green- and to allow it to ripen in the stook, and the stalks were then used as fodder. He attempted to follow that practice at the college, but, unfortunately, climatic -con-· ditions were against him-rain set in, so that he was unable to cart these stooks away and stack them as usual. The same climatic conditions would explain why a certain amount (if ground was allowed to grow weeds. Farmers could not command the weather, and could not always do what they knew to be best. A man often ploughed a portion of ground, but was hindered by the weather from putting anything in it, and the result was that he had to keep off the ground during the

very wet weather and lose his work for the season. If thnsa were the only instances the hon. member for Lockyer could bring to show Professor Shelton's inefficiency, he did not think he had gone very far. The Secretary for ·Public Instruction had saiJ that it s"wwed a weakness in his case that he did not apply for an inquiry instead of quietly leaving his position. But the Secretary for Agriculture said that be had made a mist,~ke in not dismiss­ing him instead of asking him to resign. Pro­fessor Sbelton knew very well that if he did not tender his resignation he would very likely be dismissed; probably he knew that there was a determination on the part of certain individuals to get rid of him. It was also on the cuds that they would have. got rid of another officer if he had given them a chance; but he would not mention names. In regard to certain papers that had been moved for, there seemed to be a con­sensus of opinion that it was desirable that the names of those concerned should be withheld, but the Secretary for A;rriculture indicated one of them by referring to an occupation he was following in South Brisbane.

The SECRETARY ]'OR AGRICULTURE: l say dis­tinctly that he was not connected with that riot.

Mr. GlUMES: Then why was be referred to at all? He liked fa1r play, and did not think there had been fair play in this transaction.

Mr. ARMSTRONG: He had said that he could mention many instances of incapacity in working the farm, but would only refer to two, and those were the two spoken of by the hon. member for Oxley. He had seen the whole thing, and watched it with interest. The maize was cut green on a perfectly dry day and stooked, the idea of Professor Sbelton being than the maize would keep good in that way for any period, but it proved a most dismal failure. \Vith regard to the wheat, it was ridiculous to say that sida retusa and other weeds growing on the farm would come to maturity in three weeks.

Mr. STEW ART: The Secretary for Agri­culture had not told them why Professor Shelton was not admitted to the inquiry which was made at the college. But his colleague, the SecretaPy for Public Instruction, bad attempted to justify the exclusion of the professor by arguing that his presence would have terrorised the boys, which was ridiculous nonsense. Youths from seventeen to twenty-two years of age, w.ho were. credited with a very strong and bitter feeling against the professor, would not have. been afraid to speak the truth in his presence. But if the result of his presence might have been to keep back a portion of the truth, might they not also reasonably infer that the fact bf his absence woul-1 produce more than the truth? \Vhatever view the Cominittee might take of the matter, he believed the public would say tlutt it was a most un-British action for the Mmister to exclude the professor from an in­quiry in which his conduct was concerned. The Secretary for Public Instruction said ~bat if Professor Shelton could not get on w1th the students it was time that he was dismissed. But anyone reading the evidence would see that the students were dis"atisfied with the professor purely and simply because he tried too hard to cram some instruction into their empty heads. Before he sat down be wished to refer to what the Minister himself said on the 11th August­that two things "seemed to be required to make a successful principal of a college, first, that he should ha Ye the confidence of the boys and the teachers; and second, that he should have more than a theoretical knowledge of farming. With regard to having the confidence of the boys, it had been proved that if Professor Shelton had allowed the boys all the latitude they wanted he would have had their confidence; there would not

1560 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

have b.een a single whimper of disaffection. The same thing was shown by the evidence with respect to the teachers. Each thought his own subject of most importance, and the l::tck of their confidence due to that would have been the same whoever had been principal. \Vith regard to the second qualification the hon. gentleman considered necessary, Professor Shelton had corr,e from America no doubt with the highest testimonials, and had been eight years in the service at £750 a year, and he left it to the hon. gentleman and his colleagues to explain how an incompetent man had been kept in the service at that salary for so long. One remark he would like to make was that for once in the history of the continuous Government they appeared to have been influenced by agitators. Hitherto they had put people who agitated against bad conditions in gaol, but in this case the agitators had been succussful for a reason which the Government were not willing to disclose, but which was written large all over the subject. He wanted to know what changes if any had been made in the curriculum, and whether those who had taken part in the riot were still at the college? In another part of the speech which the hon. gentleman made on the previous occasion he stated that he feared a certain number of students would not return to the college for the next term, and rather th<>n that 8hould take place it appeared that thR hon. gentleman dismissed the professor. Tlw Secre­tary for Instruction had said ·that Profe,sor Shelton had put himself out of court by sending in his resignation, bnt the fact W<LS that there was no other course open to him.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: As to the curriculum and the discipline, the hon. member must not assume that the ,,,tudents were now allowed to do as they liked. The principal, the teachers, and the students were vn good terms, but there had been no loosening-there had been a tightening-of the bonds of discipline. With regard to the students connected with the riot, they were not at the college now -as far as he knew.

Mr. BOLES considered the college a most important institution, but did not think it had carried out the aspirations formed concerning its establishment.

At 5 minutes to 12 o'clock, Mr. McDONNELL called attention to the

state of the Committee. Qnorum formed. Mr. BOLES was in favour of an agricultural

college, but it appeared that only the better class of society could afford to take advantage of it. In his opinion Professor Shelton had not received fair play. ·when the appointment of instructor in agriculture was contemplated the Government here asked the United States Government to recommend an expert, and it was not likely that they would send a man totally incapable.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICDLTURE: I have never stated that he was an incompetent lecturer or teacher. He was a most competent lecturer.

Mr. BOLES : As to the opinions expre>'~ed by farmers concerning Professor Shelton, some took one view while others took the opposite view. The work he endeavoured to carry out at Gatton was frustrated by students who wanted to do a small amount of work and have any amount of play. He hoped the present instructor would keep the students up to their work. The evidence of the pupils led to the conclusion that they were badly disciplined. In fact they were pure larrikins. The only course open to l:'ro­fessor Shelton was to resh:n, and he was sorry that the Minister had not backbone enough to see that the man had fair play.

Mr. KIDSTON : The Minister had told them ~hat he was of opinion that Professor Shelton

was unsuited for the position. If that was his opinion, it w<Ls his clear rluty to remove him, and it would be good for the taxpayers if other Ministers were to remove. incompetent Civil servants. Mnny civil-servants remained in their positions because Ministers did not care to in­cur the odium of dismissing them.

Mr. BOLES called attention to the state of the Committet',

The ACTING CHAIR:i'viAN : I have satis­fied myself that a quorum is present-within the precinct' of the. House.

Mr. KIDSTON : He was astonished that the Minister should have dealt with the trouble at the college in the way he did. Imagine the students from an educational institution writing to the Minister and saying, "the principal has repeatedly declared in public that the students are averse to study. \V e do not altogether agree with that !" Further on they said, "Hitherto the principal has never encouraged the students to have friendly cricket matches with out­side clubs, and the college wagonette was never available for use in this respect." Ima­gine a gentleman in the position of the Minister acting on such a document. The whole thing was ridiculously absurd. While he quite agreed that any Minister should have backbone enough to get rid of any officer whom he considered unsuitable for the position he held, he was strongly of opinion that Professor Shelton was not dismissed on the information elicited at the inquiry. \Vith regard to the college, an increase of nc:1rly £1,000 was asked for. It had been decided that Queensland should have the luxury of an agricultural college, but did not the hon. gentleman think we were "paying too much fOT our whistle?" The education of the students cost £172 per head. It cost £1 a week per head to supply the :;tndents with house-servants, stores, and incidentals. \Vas there no proba­bility of the £6,200 being reduced in future years?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The inference drawn by the hon. member was not absolutely correct. . The £2,000 for wages, house-servants, stores, and incidentals, paid for all· the labour on the farm. There were only three house-servants-one for each dormitory-­and a cook and an assistant cook. Several of the items on the Estimate would gradually dis­appear. Some, such as dairy cattle and other stock, buildings and improvements, he hoped would dis;;ppear next year.

Mr. KIDSTON : All he asked was that the Jliiinister, ha.ing in view the enol'mous expense incnrred per head of the students, would try whether he could not run the inotitute more in accordance with the fitness of things.

The SECRET.ARY FOR AGRICULTURE: They had committed themselves to a certain expendi-ture, and as far as lay in his power it should not be extravagant.

Mr. GLASSEY: The department ran riot at the start.

Mr. GRIMES : Through the extravagance of the previous occupant of the position.

Mr. McDONNELL: He was a strong believer in the college; he believed it was one of the most important education;;! institutions they had in the colony, and he liked the idea of professional men sending their som there to learn the business of farming .. He regretted that Professor Shelton had not been allowed to be present at the inquiry, as it would ha Ye removed a great deal of objection to his removal. It was also a mistake that the names of those who had caused the "shindy" at the college had not been made public, while at the same time it was unfortunate that the Minister should have singled out one of them as following a somewhat degrading occupation.

Supply. [15 DECEMBER. J Supply. 1561

The SECRETARY FOR AG RIOULTURE : It was only lone to show that thev were not all "swells."

Mr. MoDO:'-rNELL wished to know whether the bursaries had been avail•>d of? He under­stood that the late principal dways gave the preference to Ameri(>~n nuchinery and farm implements, although very good implements were made locally. In that case the preference sliould be given to the local article. He wished to know whether the same system was adopted by· the present principal? He also V\ ished to know whether it was a fact that thP farm servants and tradesmen were paid very low wages? He hoped that Mr. Mahon's statement that the college would soon become self-supporting would be realise,i. If it was, the farmers would have no need to fear the competition of the college.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTCRE: A large proportion of the ploughs used in the colony came from America, as they were very suitable, but he was not aware that the late principal had a particular love for American ploughs. The ploughs at the college were rather a second-rate lot. He thought that last session the hon. member for Barcoo said that a number of implements of colonial make were in use at the college. It was highly improbable that the servants were screwed down in their wages. With regard to the schohrships, provision had been made for four, but he regretted to say they had not been taken full advantage of. He had endeavoured to advertise them by snpplying paragraphs to the Press, but the Press did not like cheap advertisemmts, and he could not see his way to spend a lot of money on it. He believed that as they became better known they wonld be availed of to a greater extent.

Mr. STEW ART asked how many farm servants were employed, and whether the cost of tree-planting was for trees or labour? There ought to be plenty labour available. He also wished to know whether the different experts periodically visited the college ?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The experts visited the college periodically, and several outsiders had also given lectures. The number of Jabourere employed varied very much, but there was always a man to attend to the milking-shed and feed the pigs. They had not gone in for bacon-curing yet, but hoped to put up a little place for that purpose before long. The fact was, they did not want to spend too much money, and therefore the place was not nearly complete. In regard to the amount down for. tree-planting, the Under Secretary informed him that that was only a matter of bookkeeping.

Mr. MoMASTER: He' visited the college for the first time last Saturday, and was very pleased with what he saw, but it struck him that they were trying to do too much. It was better to have twenty acres well cultivated than forty acres badly cultivated, especially as trying to do too much would necessitate a great deal of outside employment. It seemed very strange to him that the head of this department should be receiving less salary than some of his officers who had been just brought in, and, he thought he was correct in surmising that the Under Secretary had to manage the whole of the accounts and do the other business.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: I do not think the hon. member is in order in referring to a previous vote.

Mr. G RIMES : It was very late when the vote passed last night, and H was generally understood that any hon. member who had not spoken should have an opportunity of doing so now.

The SECRETARY ]'OR AGRICULTURE: I expressly protested against that. The leader of the Oppo­sition will bear me out.

Mr. GLASSEY: Hear, hear!

Mr. MoMASTER: He thought the Estimate ought to be revised, and hoped the Secretary for Agriculture would see justice was done to all, but still a firm hand would have to be kept over the expenditure.

Mr. G RIMES wished to refer to the grievance of Mr. Kelsey. He was sorry that the Minister had read a portion of the correspondence in con· nection with the mtttter.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : I will move that the whole of it be printed, if you like.

Mr. GRIMES: Mr. Kelsey, who came of a very good family, left British Columbia with one of his sons, and came to settle in Queensland as afarmer.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : The man is a Queenslander; he was here twenty years ago.

Mr. GRIMES: At any rate the man came here, and paid .£27 as fees for himself and his son for one quarter at the Agricultural College, and en the 1st of August he was summarily dismissed from the college-told that he would not be supplied with any more meals after breakfast that day. The man had paid his fees as a resident student, and he had not been treated as a gentleman coming from a distant part of the world to learn agriculture should be treated.

The SECRETARY l!'OR AGRIOULTCRE: He never did a day's work, but went about with a note­book.

Mr. GRIMES : He could not find anything of that in the correspondence. What he objected to was a statement in a letter to Kelsey that the college had not been instituted for the benefit of people from Hongkong, British Columbia, or any other country. He had known men coming to the colony from other places with money in their pockets who would have saved thousands of pounds in their investments if they could have spent twelve months at such a place as the Agricultural College.

At six minutes to 1 o'clock, Mr. DUNSFORD called attention to the state

of the Committee. Quorum formed. Mr. GRIMES: He was incredulous about the

statement of the principal that he had made a net profit of .£168 Gs. lOd. for four months and one week on the dairy and pigs, and would like the Minister to lay the statement on the table .. There had been tuberculin tests of the cattle at the college, and he would like to know if it was true that one bull condemned as diseased was found upon being slaughtered to be a perfectly healthy beast?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The beast was diseased, but not with tubercu­losis.

Mr. GRiliiES: In other words, the test was not correct?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The hon. member understood the matter per­fectly. He knew that in some cases only the most minute examination would reveal tubercu­losis, and it did not follow that because the lesions were not found they were not present at all.

Mr. GRIMES would like to know if the tests were carried out by a veterinary surgeon ? It was a most important thing to have confidence in the tests.

The SECRETARY FOR AG RIOULTURE: The tuberculin test was an effective test. If there were no disturbing elements, such as knock­ing about or other diseases, it was unfailing.

Mr. GLASSEY: Would the Minister inform the Committee the amount of fees received from the students and the valu'e of the produce? He thought it would be well to include in the annual report all details of income and expenditure

1C62 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

connected with the college. He hoped that in time the college would become self-supporting, and hoped the Minister would have sufficient courage to dispose of the produce in the nearest and most available markets.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : He hoped that in future the annual report would be very much fuller and more interesting, not only to members of Parliament, but also to the farming community. It was not from any sense of timidity that he said the produce of the college would not be sold locally, but because it was desired to cany on experiments that would be of va1ue to the colony. There was a difference of opinion, for instance, as to whether pasteurised butter would keep better tharr unpasteurised butter, and in experimenting on that question they desired to ship butter to England. The revenue of the college last year was £1,335, including fees amounting to about £600 or £700. The revenue this yea,r from the ht July to the 8th November was £578 9s. 2d. He supposed the item "contingencies" would be met in a short time by the receipts.

Mr. GLASSEY did not think the reason advanced by the Minister for not selling produce locally was a particularly sound one ; he still thought that the hon. gentleman showed a certain amount of timidity. He was satisfied that as time went on a gre .• t deal of prejudice at present existing against the college would wear away.

Mr. BRIDGES moved that the question be now put.

Mr. :McDONNELL was surprised. at such a motion being mov~·d after the very interesting speech they had listened to from the hon. mem­ber for Oxley. He thought it was a misfortune that that hon. member was not at the head of the Agricultural Department. He would like to know whether the dairy instructor was taking the place of Mr. Mahon?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICVLTURE: No. Mr. BRIDGJi~S would withdraw his motion if

hon. members desired it, but he thought they had sufficiently thrashed out the matter of Pro­fessor Shelton. The Minister who took it upon himself to remove a man holding that position did a very \m pleasant thing, whether it was the right thing or not ; and upon that point there was a wide difference of opinion. However, Professor Shelton had gone and Mr. Mahon was in his place whether he was in the right place or not he could not say; but he believed he had gained the confidence of the agriculturists more than any other man who had ever been connected with the department.

Mr. STEPHENS moved that the question be now put. ·

Question-That the question be now put-put; and the Committee divided :-

AYEs, 17. messrs. Chataway, Murray, Hood, Morgan, Stodart,

Story, Castling, Armstrong, Newell, Stumm, Bridges, Lord, Stephens, Collins, Leahy, Corfield, and Ann ear.

NoJo:s,lJ,, Messrs. Glassey, Daniels, Hamilton, :McDonnell, Kerr,

D~msford, Boles, Sim, :Mc:Master, King, Turley, Grimes, K1dston, and Stewart.

PAIRS. .A.yes-Messrs. Lissner, Fraser, Callan, 3-Ioore, and

Smith. Noes-:liP'11Srs. Keogh, Curtis, Cross, "Vr. Thorn, and

Fogarty .. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: "Ayes" 17,

"Noes" 14. The majority for the" Ayes" not being sufficiently large, as provided in Standing Order 135, I declare the question resolved in the negative.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! Mr. GRIMES \Vas rather surprised at the

action which had been taken, and which had been supported by two Ministers. It was dis-

graceful that hon. members should come in and attempt to apply the gag-to stop discussion by moving the cliiture.

Mr. STEPHENS rose to a point of order. 'Was the hon. member in order in charging hon. members with applying "the gag?"

T)le ACTING CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is, str;_ctly speaking, certainly not in order. The action of which he complains is pro· vided for by the Standing Orders.

.:Mr. GRIMES wonld withdraw the word "gag," and say "cl6ture." He was still more surprised that two members of the Government should have voted for an abortive attempt to stop discussion.

Mr. KIDSTON had voted against the motion not because he did not think that particular vote had not been fully discussed, but as a matter of principle. He objected to any representative of the people being silenced when he thought he was doing his duty. At the same time, time brought strange revenges. He remembered before he entered the Chamber that the hon. member whom the Opposition side had now saved from the gag had applied the gag successfully to them. ·

Question put and passed.

STATE FARMS. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE

moved that £8,232 be granted for State farms. Laot Year there were three State farms which had not been in a sufficiently advanced stage to come under that vote, but were included in the item of £3,000 for the establishment of State farms in the next vote. The increase of £], 050 in contingencies was due to the fact that the State farms were now getting into working order, and there was no appropriation for them last year. The director of State farms and the assistant instructor in fruit culture· had been tran_sferred to the first vote, which they had passed. There was very little alteration with regard to the other officers. ·

Mr. GLASSEY asked for some information with regard to the property at Redland Bay which had been leased for a fruit farm? Would the hon. gentleman inform them who owned the land, its area, the rent paid, and also what arrangements had been made with regard to the produce.

I'he SECRETARY JWR AGRICULTURE: All the information was contained in the report. There were twenty-six acres leased from Mr: L. G. Corrie, at an annual rental of £31. The lease was for a period of three or five years, and · experiments were being made in manuring bananas, pineapples, and other fruits. Of course the resnlts belongAd to the depart_ment.

Mr. GLASSEY wished to know·if it was ab­solutely necessary that this land should be leased, or if the transaction was not tinged with jobbery? Long before this arrangement was entered into, he knew that negotiations were going on, and he was not surprised to find this result.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTGRE: He would be pleased to give all the information, he possessed, but from the knowledge he had of his predecessor he did not think there could be any saspicion of jobbery. There were some 800 acres of land in the district, closely cultivated, and it was thought desirable that experiments should be carried on there by the fruit expert, as there was no chance of frost, and the place was within reasonable distance of a railway. The fruit trees there were covered with scale, and various experiments had been tried to discover a means of dealing with it, which he believed would lead to valuable results.

Mr. KERR : He had visited Redland B;:ty on several occasions and had seen this farm, and had come to thEJ. conclusion that the Government

Supply. [15 DECEMBER.] Supply. 1563

had obtained a very suitable place in which to try· experiments,. because it was the most neglected farm in the district. Tt was common talk in Redland Bay that the whole transaction was a job, and there was no need for the Secre­tary for Agriculture to say that his predecessor was above that kind of thing. They knew that Mr. Corrie recommended the fruit expert for the position he held, and they should have allowed Mr. Corrie to experiment upon his own trees.

Mr. DANIELS: It was a strange thing that they should be advertieing all over the country that they wanted to settle peorle on millions of acres of land, and yet have to lease an old neglected farm at a rental of considerably over £1 per acre per annum in order to mali:e experi· ments in fruit culture where there was no frost. Was the fruit expert to give instruction only in the cultivation of fruits that woulfl grow in places where there was no frost? They did not want a large orchard for the purpose of making experiments in fruit culture. But, in addition to paying £31 a year for this neglecteu twenty-six­acre farm, they paid an expert £600 a year to look after it, and an assistant £250 a year ; and he supposed they would also have to pay wages to ordmary labourers to do the work, for the expert and his assistant would simply be there to boss the concern, lounge on the veranda, and smoke high-class cigars. He would like the Minister to state the term of the lease and the conditions.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: He had already read out the particulars before from the report of the department, to which he referred the hon. member. The term of the leas.e was for three or five years, at the option of the Government.

Mr. DANIELS : Anyone who knew anything about fruit knew that the trees would only be beginning to beo.r at the end of the term, and he supposed the farm would then be handed back to the owner without compensation for improve­ments.

Mr. KIDSTON asked what were the returns from Lhe farm ?

The SECRETARY ~'OR AGRICULTURE: £5Os. 6d. Mr. KIDS TON : What had it cost to produce

that return ? The SECRETARY ~'OR AGRICULTURE: I could

not teH the. hon. member that, but I could tell him what· has been spent on the farm.

Mr. KIDSTON would like to know if the Government were going to do that kind of thing for one agriculturist only, or whether other farmers in the colony would get a chance to rent their farms to the Government on the same generous terms?

Mr. GLASSEY desired to know what this orchard had cost? It belonged to Mr. Corrie, the broker, who recommended Mr. Benson as a fruit expert from Sydney. Mr. Benson suggested that a place should be taken at Redland Bay to enable him to carry out his operations, and he went to the very spot owned by Mr. Corrie and recommended that it should be leased. Then Mr. Benson was taken from his own work as specialist in fmit-growing and put over the State farms; and it was contemplated at one time, he believed, to make him Under Secretary for Agriculture, but better counsels prevailed. He thought that Mr. Benson's salary should be re­duced by £200 a year, and that he should be kept to the work for which he was engage~. He received a higher salary than the Under Secre­tary-an anomaly that ought not to exist.

The SECRETARYFOR AGRICULTURE: The expenditure was £470, for . manure~ and labour.

Mr. GLASSEY: He was astonished at the amount. This transaction, which was entered into while the late Minister, a member of the other Chamber, was in office, was supposed to be

for the benefit of the fruit-growers but he had no hesitation in characterising it as a most infamous job, deserving of the strongest censure.

Mr. McDONNELL : Was not surprised at the astonishment of the hon. member: the expenditure was scandalous. He understood that when Mr. Corrie left the farm it was not in bad condition. He supposed that money included the salary of the overseer?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : Yes. Mr. McDONNELL was surprised that a fruit

farm had not been established in the Uxley electorate, where the Government could get plenty of· suitable land. He did not blame the Minister for acquiring the farm at Redland Bay. That was the act of liis predecessor, Mr. Thynne, but it was generally regarded by fruit-growers as a wilful waste of money. There seemed to be a feeling also that Mr. Benson was not that success which the high salary he was paid would lead one to anticipate that he would be. He wished to know whether anything had been done in the matter of making a drive round the gardens?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICUW'URE: N<'thing whatever.

Mr. McDONNE.LL hoped the Minister would see his way to having a portion of the Botanic Gardens railed off round the river, so that it could be thrown· open at night as was done in Sydney, Melbourne, and Adelaide.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE hoped members did not think that all the money spent on the fruit farm had gone in permanent work. Much of the money had been spent in labour and in experimental tests.

Mr. GLASSEY: If the farm was to be a success, of course a certain amount of money must be expended upon it, but it was perfectly astonishing to spend £500 on a farm that was acquired only on short. lease. He wished to put in a word for the Government Botanist, Mr. Bailey, who did most valuable work and had always been underpaid. He hoped the Minister would comider the question of increasing that gentleman's salary next year.

Mr. STEW ART: While admitting that it was necessary that the Government should have some orchard on the Qo~st, it was certainly a waste of public money to put all those improvements on some other person's property. The wiser plan would have been for the Government to have purcha£ed a piece of land on the coast where those very necessary experiments could be carried on.

Que5.tion put and passed.

MISCELLANEO!:S SERVICES (SUBDIVISION). The SECRETARY JWR AGRICULTURE

moved that £33,111 be granted for miscellaneous services (subdivision). The items to be especially noted were the last four. The first was for special prizes to rail way station masters and lengthsmen. He had been in communication with the Commissioner to see if he would per­mit some small special prizes to be given to stationmasters and lengthsmen who kept nice gardens. He thought that would meet with the approval of hon. members. It \vas proposed that the departmenb should take charge of tanks and bores, and that the caretakers, having plenty of water -available, should do something in the way of gardening. The next iteJ;U was the bonus on the export of chilled meat. It was considered desirable, in view of the congested state of the London market, and the general trouble in the meat business, that some en-

. conragement shoul\f he given to open UJ:> new markets. The suggestion emanated from Rock­hampton people, who asked for a· bonus of £10,000. That was considered too much to ask, and it wa~ proposed to pay ;j;d. per lb.

1564 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

on shipments of meat sent to the southern colonies and vVestem Australia. He was afraid there would not be very much claim for it, but the fact of its being offered had done some good, as up to the present about 1,000 quarters h.td been sent away in the hope of getting the bonus. ·with regard to aid to local wool sales, it was con«idered desirable that the trade should, if poesihle, he diverted from the south to Brisbane by establishing local wool sales. The Government gave and received every encouragement from those interested in the sale of wool, and to induce sellers to send their wool to Brisbane or any other place along the coast it was proposed to give a bonus of £1 a ton for this year, 15s. for next year, and lOs. for the year after. The consequence was that the first wool sale was unquestionably ~nccessful, and the prospects for the next were all that could be desired.

Mr. KIDSTON : With some of the items on the vote he entirely agreed. The special prizes for stationmasters and lengthsmen's gardens he had advocated long ago. If judiciously ·dis­tributed, it would do a vast amount of good. If the export bonm on chilled meat opened up a market for the cattle-owners, particularly of the· Northern and Central districts, who had had to pass through very trying times, the expenditure would be amply justified. He objected strongly to the vote in aid of local wool sales. It was desirable that the grazing farmers should get their returns as early as possible, but they had a good market for their wool at present, and could get their returns properly. The wool­growers would receive no benefit, either direct or indirect, from the vote, as it would all go to the promotE'rs of the woolbrokers' a'sociation. It was in the hope of getting this .£4,000 that this company was formed ; in fact the whole idea was to benefit a number of commercial houses in Brisbane. They were also told that it was in· tended to hold these wool sales in other places than Brisbane. If that were done there would be an appearance of impartiality ; but for the Brisbane people to demand the· whole amount was gross impertinence.

Mr. GRIMES asked where it was intended to establish the experiment:.! sugar farms?

The HOME SECRETARY: At Mackay. There was only one so far.

Mr. HARD ACRE was very glad to see that there was £100 down for special prizes for rail­way stationmasters and lengthsmen, but he thought all railway employees should be in­cluded. He was abo glad to see the amount for bonuses for the expm·t of chilled meat, but he did not think it was likely to do any good now. It ought to have been done a year ago when encouragement wao needed more than at present. However, he hoped the regulations would make the vote as effective as possible. The better plan would have been for the Government to have subsidised a ship them­selves, which would have cost far less money. vVith regard to thA local wool sales, Lhe bonus would do good for Brisbane, as the sales would result in more shipments being made from that port, and more money spent in the district. But he objected to national funds being used for purely local purposes. The bonus should apply to any port in the colony where wool sales might be held.

The Ho:~~E SECRETARY : So it does. Mr. HARD ACRE: If it was intended that

the money should be used in that way, his objection to the vote was removed. ·

Mr. HOOD pointed out that there had so far been only four shipments of frozen meat to the southern colonies - one from Townsville to Melbourne, one from Brisbane to Melbourne, and two from Brisbane to Sydney-and that but

for this subsidy having been promised none of those shipments would have been made. Two of the Bhipments had been taken by one of the regular coastal steamer~, which had been fitted up by the owners with a chamber which would carry 280 quarters. The shipments had just come out clear.

:Mr. HARDAURE: If small shipments, such as the hon. member referred to, paid, it proved his contention that if the trade was carried on in a large way-embracing all the important ports in the colony-it could be carried on profitably.

Mr. GLASSEY thought the last items on the vote would result in good, and that the money proposed in support of local wool sales would be well spent. It would lead to employment of labour in the handling of the wool at the local ports.

Mr. STEW ART pointed out that the bonus provided would only represent 4,000 tons, and there had been 16,000 tons chipped from .Bris­bane last year. The question was, who would it benefit? If, aR he understood, a better price was got for the wool at the local sales, he could not see any reason for the bonus at all. He did not agree that there would be any more handling of the wool sold locally ; and if there was, people in other parts of the colony should not have to pay to find unneces-sary work for people living in Brisbane.

Mr. TURLEY : The fact that wool was sold in Brisbane would lead to no more employment in the handling of it. The greater part of the wool that came to Brisbane was shipped home direct, and if anything could be sayed by holding wool sales here it would be done wrthout a bonus. He did not think there was anything in the vote, except that it might have the effect of assisting a few woolbrokers.

Mr. ARMSTRONG : The £600 put down for the destruction of noxious weeds was absolutely inadequate. Local authorities had authority to destroy noxious weeds on Government reserves, but it would take the whole of that amount to destroy the N oogoora burr on the Crown lands along the Brisbane River. He approved of the granting of £100 as-prizes to stationmasters and lengthsmen for the best kept gardens along the railway lines, and he would like to see a still larger amount voted for distribution amongst the heads of State and provisional schools with the same object.

Mr. DUNSFORD: As a Northern member he protested against granting State money as ·bonuses for the export of chilled meat and for local sales of wool. Whether the wool was· sold here or in the old country mattered little. so long as it was shipped direct. Until separation was effected there would be no wool sales on any large scale assisted by Government money in theN orth or in the Centre.

Mr. GLA8SEY again expressed his approval of the proposed bonus on the export of chilled meat and the proposed assistance to local wool sales.

Mr. KERR entered his protest against the vote for a bonus on the export of wool. He had done the same on the debate on the Address in Reply, and having consulted with his constituents on the subject they were of his opinion. The bonus would uot ·benefit the small men at all, hut would go into the hands of the large wool­brokers. Most of the station-owners had no voice in the disposal of their wool, as could be seen by studying the number of liens which were published in a certain paper every week. vVith regard to the vote of £600 for the de­struction of noxious weeds, he had had occa­sion recently to call on the clerk of the Murweh Divisional Board to point out that the road between Tambo and Nive Downs was blocked

Suppl;y, [16 DECEl{BER.] Mining Bill. 1565

up with Bathurst burr-so much so that travel­ling stock could not get through. Th.e divisional board men, he believed, were interested in letting these weeds grow to block drovers. It would take something like £2,000 to clear the road he mentioned.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The vote was not intended for that purpose. It should properly be under the Lands Department, as it was used to clear small reserves. He agreed that something ought to be done in the matter mentioned by the hon. member• for Lockyer·and. Barcoo, and hoped to see legislation introduced to supply the means to divisional boards and to compel them to keep the roads clear of noxious weeds.

Mr. HARDACRE asked whether the special prizes for gardens would be given to other Go­vernment employees than stationmasters and lengthsmen, and when the bonus on chilled meat would be available?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The prizes would probably be open to all employees on railway line" occupying Govern­ment property. The bonus on chilled meat would be available as soon as the House voted the money.

Mr. KIDS TON moved that the item, "Aid to local wool Rales, £4,0CO," be omitted.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE would just say, as to the desirability of establish· ing wool sales in Brisbane, that they could have no better proof than the enormous activity dis­played by the southern financial institutions to prevent them.

Mr. KIDSTON : He did not dispute the desirability, but contended that they could be established without a bonus.

The TREASURER: l<'or years past attempts had been made to establish local wool sales in Brisbane, without success. This year the attempt had been successful owing to that small bonus, and those who benefited would be the small woolgrowers. Buyers from the south and from abroad had come to Brisbane to bid for our wool. \Voolgrowers would be able to get their monev in a week or two, while there was a long delay if they sold in Sydney, Melbourne, or London. There was no· reason why there should not be s.tles in Townsville and Rockhampton, but it was best to make a start in Brisbane.

Mr. KIDSTON did not believe that the vote of £4,000 ·had i11duced the buyers to attend the late sale.

Mr. SIM was opposed to the attempt to bolster up the wool industry by paying a bonus. It was a confession that all their previous efforts to compete with New South \Vales had failed.

Question-That the item " Aid to local wool sales, £4,000," be omitted-put; and the Com­mittee divided:-

AYEs, 9. Messrs. Kidston, Kerr, Jackson, 'rurley, Daniels, Sim,

Dnnsford, Stewarc, and N"ewell. NoEs, 25.

Messrs. Dickson, Foxton, Dalrymple, Chataway, Philp, Glassey, Armstrong, ~IcDonnell, Hood, King, lVIc:Master, Stephens, Morgan, Leahy, Stumm, Bridges, Hamilton, Story, Castling, Stodart, Griroes, Oollins, ::\fnrray, Lord, and Corfield.

PAIRS. Ayes-l\fessrs. Keogh, Curtis, CrossJ '\:V. Thorn, and.

Fogart.y. , Xoes-Me~srs. Lissner, Fraser, CaUan, l\Ioore, and

Smith. Resolved in the negativ~. Mr. DUNSFORD : The Agricultural Journal

cost a good deal of money, and he would like to know if the Secretary for Agriculture hac! con­sidered thequeRtion of taking advertisement".

The SECRETARY FOR AG RIOULTURg: The department had written to the other colonies to see what they did, and would do what was ,oon.sLdered bes.t in th\3 interests of the colony.

Mr. STEW ART rose to speak--The ACTING CHAIRMAN: The hon.

member cannot speak now. It was only through my inexperience in the chair that I allowed the hon. member for Charter& Towers to speak. I refer the hon. member to Standing Order 313.

Mr. HAHDACRE asked if an application had been received for a bonus for the first 100 acres of wheat grown in the Central district?

The ACTING CHAIRMAN : The hon. member will see that he is tmt of order in speak­ing now.

Mr. HARDACRE : I just wish to say a few words--

The ACTING CHAilniAN: If the hon. member wishes to dispute my ruling, I shall be h:,ppy to submit the question to the Committee, but he cannot be allowed to speak.

~Ir. HARD ACRE : I was going to take that course.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Then the hon. member must mo> e his motion at once.

Mr. HARDACRE: I was about to do so, but was not allowed. Now that I have a chance to explain, through hon. members on the other side c, asing their interjections, I shall sit down.

{2uestion put and passed. The House resuined; the AcTIN"G CHAIRMAN re­

ported that the Committee had come to certain resolutions, and the Committee obtained leave to sit again at a later hour of the day.

The resolutions were ordered to be received at a later hour of the day.

The House adjourned at ten minutes past 4 o'clock a. m.