Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 30 SEPTEMBER 1937

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

726 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions,

THURSDAY, 30 SEPTEMBER, 1937.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. Pollock, Gregory) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.

QUESTIONS. SINGLE UNEMPLOYED, A"l7GUST. 1937.

Mr. WALKER (Cooroora) asked the Secretary for Labour and Industry-

" vYhat was the number of single unemployed who received either inter­mittent relief work pay or rations dur­ing the week ended on the last Saturday in August, 1937? "

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND I='i"DUSTRY (Hon. M. P. Hynes, 'l'ownsville) replied-

" The information is being obtained."

OPERATIONS OF FARMERS' ASSISTANCE (DEBTS ADJUSTMENT} AcT.

Mr. WALKER (Cooroora) asked the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock-

" What is the answer to my question originally asked on 2nd instant relative to the highest amount involved in any one composition or scheme of arrange­ment under the Farmers' Assistance (Debts Adjustment) Acts "?

Questions. [30 SEPTEJ'.IBER.] Supply. 727

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) replied-

"The hon. gentleman who asks the question established, during his period as Minister for Agriculture, the very excellent practice of not making public the affairs of clients of the Agricultural Bank. I propose to follow his example, but would add that the moneys provided under rural rehabilitation are subject to the scrutiny of the Commonwealth Audit Department."

CoMPEKS\TTO~ OF DEPEKDANTS oF AcciDENT VICTIMS.

i\Ir. KICKLIN (Murrum ba) asked the Minister for Transport-

" 1. What amount of compensation was paid by his department to the rela­tiYes of Mr. O'Dowd. who was killed by a rail motor at Samford?

"2. \Vhat compensation was paid to the relatives of the two men recently killed at the railway crossing at Aldcr­lev? "

'I'he MI::\ISTER FOR TRAKSPORT (Hon. J. Dash, Mundingburra) replied-

" 1. Nil. "2. Nil."

LIFE IKSL:RANCE OF PREMIER A::-iD PRIVATE SECRETARY ON TRIP ABROAD.

Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) asked the Premier-

" 1. Were any insurance policies taken out relating to his recent trip abroad covering himself and his private secre­tary?

"2. If so, what were the respective amounts of such policies and the pre­miums paid? ''

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith Mackny) replied- '

"1. Yes; for the aeroplane flight, Bris­bane to London.

" 2. Premier, life insurance, amount £5,000; premium, £5 16s. Sd. Secretary, life insurance, amount £1,000; premium, £1 3s. 4d. In addition, Mr. McAllister is also protected by the Workers' Com­pemation Act. This amount was included in the return presented to Parliament."

LEGALITY OF TRANSFERS FROM UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF FUND.

Mr. :MAHER (West Moreton) asked the Secretary for Labour and Industry-

" 1. Was any legal opinion obtained from the Solicitor-General as to the legalitv of the Order in Council which authorisPd transfers from the Unemploy­ment Relief Fund to consolidated revenue 1

" 2. If so, will he lay a copy of such opinion on the table of the House? "

Th" 8FCRETARY FOR LABOUR AND IND"L1 STRY (Hon. M. P. Hynes, Townsville) replied-

" 1 and 2. The Government has taken the advice of competent counsel on this matter, but it is not the practice to place such opinions on the table of the House. As a. matter of fact, on frequent occa­sions. questions soliciting legal opinion have been ruled out of order."

PAPERS. The following paper was laid on the table

and ordered to be printed:-Report of the manager, Golden Casket

Art Union, for the year 1936-1937. The following papers were laid on the

table:-Ordinances under the City

Acts, 1924 to 1936-(a) "Ferries," dated 23rd 1937; (b) addition to " Streets," dated 23rd 1937.

SUPPLY.

of Brisbane Chapter 22,

September, chapter 36 September,

REsc:MPTION oF Co~r:vnTTEE-ESTIMATEs-­EIGHTH AND NINTH ALLOTTED DAYS.

(1>.lr. Hanson, Buranda, in the chair.)

EsTHIATES IN CHIEF, 1937-38. DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC LANDS.

DISTRICT OFFICES.

Question stated-" That £62,952 be granted for 'Depart­

ment of Public Lands-District Offices.' "

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, Hu·bert) [10.36 a.m.]: The ex-Secretary for Public Lands made some comment as to charging salaries of pear rangers to the Loan Fund Account. Pre­viously, this item was a charge on Trust and Special Funds. The accountant informs me that it has now been decided to charge this v-ote to the Loan Fund Account. The change was necessary because the Trust and Special Fund vote was depleted. I am having the matter investigated.

The district officers report on the adjust­ment of leases that were discussed so fully yesterday. I make this explanation because I want to let the Committee know that every avenue of Government research is exhausted before new leases are issued in respect of these areas. The matter is first inquired into by Mr. Leahy, then Mr. Kingston, and then the Land Administration Board. The district office is then asked to make a repDrt. My desire is to clear up any charge that may be made that any of these adjustments are not fully investigated in order to protect Crown rights.

The district officers are very competent officers specially trained for this duty. I have a case that I should like to quote to the Committee. The report is in respect of a new lease in the Taroom district. 'rhe Leader of the Opposition may know some­thing about the holding. Its area is 80 square miles. The lease had eleven years to run and the rent was £1 a square mile for the whole term. The lease was subject to resumption rights, the Crown having the right to resume one-fourth of the holding at any time, and a further one-fourth after 1942. Two business men came along and made a proposal, which was sent to the district officer for report. A new ?evelop­ment lease was granted for a t<'rm of forty years at a rent of £1 a square mile for ten years. "The lease is not subject to resump­tion under section 146 throughout its term. The lease, however, was subject to the fol­lowing conditions:-

" Ten thousand acres to be ringqarked in five years, and two permanent water facilities, with equipment, to be pro­vided during that period. Of these

Hon. P. Pease.]

'128 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

improvements the lessee had to provide one permanent water facility with equip­ment and ringbark 6,000 acres during the first threa years."

'l'he district officer favourably rep-orted on the proposal. The Land Administration Board also considered it to be all right. It sent it on to me. I thought it a fair bm.iness proposal and I consented. It is a satisfactory proposition. It was a good proposition also to two business men, because instead of a lease £or eleven years, they obtained a lease for thirty years. The busine's men concerned were Edmund Bede Maher and William Charles Wilkinson. I was surprised that the Leader of the Opposi­tion, when dealing with the adjustment leases yesterday, did not refer to this holding. I say it was a good proposition. It was agreed to by me, and one of the parties to it was the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. MAXWELL: That is all right. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS:

Of course it is all right; I have said it is all right.

Mr. MAHER (West illoreton) [10.40 a.m.]: Almost the whole of the leasehold referred to by the Minister \\as virgin country. It was covered with green scrub and had been infested with prickly-pear. It carried a few head of cattle only and a great number of dingoes and wallabies. Application was made for a new lease in terms of the Act. As the Minister stated, the lease had eleven years to run.

The SECRETARY FOR PLBLIC LANDS : With certain resumption rights, which I sur­rendered to give you a fair deal.

Mr. MAHER : I recognise that. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I

merely wish to show that it was a fair deal. That is how all· similar applications were dealt with.

Mr. MAHER : There is a vast difference, though, in the case quoted by the Minister and those referred to by the Opposition yesterday, the lease of one having had twenty-seven years to run. After all, if tha1 holding had a twenty-seven year lease attached to it we should not have brought up the matter of an extension. ·when all is said and done, the effect of what the Minister has done has been merely to add nineteen years to the eleven-year lease that had to run, whereas in the cases that I took objection to yesterday the leases had twenty­seven years to run.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : We gave up the resumption rights in your case, but we did not give up the resumpGlOn rights in the cases you are talking about.

Mr. MAHER: I was careful yesterday to say that I did not object to the Minister's entering into a bargain with people who were prepared to spend money and improve the assets of the State and give a reasonable extension of lease. In certain circumstances I would agree with such a course. My criticism was based on the rather extr.,ordinary cases that I qu,oted yestBrday-Dulacca West and Oban-one of which had twenty-seven years still to run. In the case the Minister quoted that I was interested in, we got a nineteen years' extension, but in one of the cases I objected to the lease had twenty-seven years to run and an additional ten years were granted. That was rather an extraordinary

[Hon. P. Pease.

transaction, and the other one was almost in the same class, having twenty-five years to run. The Minister might bargain in the matter of a limited lease--·

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I want you to get away from the idea that the Minister bargains. All applications go through the ordinary departmental channels. I have responsible officers who make reports to me, and it is only natural that I should be guided 'Qy what they say. If the officer had reported that the extension that you were interested in was not warranted I would not have granted it.

Mr. MAHER: I have no dou'Qt what the Minister says is right-that all these applica­tions go through the pro0esses of the depart­ment, beginning with the land ranger, going through the Land Commissioner's Office, and finally reaching the Under Secretary, and in due course the Minister. When I used the term " Minister," I referred to the hon. gentleman merely in his capacity as ministerial head of the department.

The nature of my objection yesterday was that I believed that in some cases there was already a good lease in existence and it did not seem reasonable to extend it.

Mr. BRAND (lsis) [10.45 a.m.]: We are not objecting to what the Minister has done about leases of small or living areas; what we object to is the granting of additional terms in respect of very large areas that would be suitable for closer settlement. We wish to impress upon the Government that it is of thf) greatest importance to the State that the large areas lying adjacent to our railwavs and towns should be made av ... ilable for closer settlement.

The SECRETARY FOR Pc:BLIC LANDS : Do you not think the responsible officers of the department who investigate each case are not worthy of trust?

Mr. BRAND: Yes, I do. We are not complaining about the granting of an exten­sion for what may be termed living areas; on the contrary, we support the Minister's action in granting extensions in those cases. The holding controlled by Mr. Wilkinson and Mr. Maher comprises only a small area in comparison with those we have referred to. A thousand square miles is a tremendous area.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : McDougalls, which was quoted yesterday, was as small as this one.

Mr. BRAND : It would be in the interests of the State if these large areas adjacent to our railways and towns were thrown open for closer settlement. Our only objec­tion is to the extension of leases of the very large areas of the State ranging up to 1,000 acres.

The number of applicants in land ballots indicates in no uncertain manner that there is a land hunger in this State. It should be our aim to give such persons suitable areas from which they can make a comfort­able living and become useful citizens.

Mr. JESSO:.J (Kenncdy) [10.49 a.m.]: There is a necessity for a land agent at Ingham.

Mr. NDIIMO interjected. Mr. JESSO::-J: The remark made bv the

hon. member indicates that he does not know the situation of one of the most

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 729

important towns in the sugar-growing areas of Queensland. The hinterland of Ingham is important to the Sub-Department of Forestry. There are two important sawmills and a great amount of log timber is being shipped to Southern ports. A land agent was stationed at Ingham some years ago. but because of the depression and want of enterprise apparently the need for his services ceased. A large amount is now collected in royalties on timber and areas of land have been opened up. This merits the reappointment of a land agent. I have brought this matter under the notice of the Minister, and I am sure it will receive every consideration.

Item (District Offices) agreed to.

FORESTRY. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS

(Hon. P. Pease, Herbert): I move-" That £39,825 be granted for

' Forestry.' "

Mr. NICKLIN (Murrumba) [10.51 a.m.]: This is one of the most important sub­departments of the all-embracing Depart­ment of Public Lands. In the course of the debate on the Chief Office vote comment was made on the policy of the Government in selling timbers, esp:cially softwoods, as they have been dmng m recent years, without any thought of the future. At the rate that our forests arc being denuded of softwoods ther_e is no doubt that in a very short space of time no such wood will remain. I admit that the department is pursuing an active reforestation policy, but this activity should be greatly extended.

In the. course of his remarks the Secretary for Public .Lands took to his department all the credit for the amount that is expended :m forestry at the present time and spoke m rather a derogatory way of the actions of a former Secretary for Public Lands, the hon. member for Cunningham. A study of the figures to be found in the Treasurer's Financial Tables will disclose that the amount expended from loan funds for reforestation last financial year in compari­son with the amount of revenue receive<il is approximately the same as in the time of the former Administration. The figures are-

1930-31 1936-37

Royalties Received. Expended.

£ £ 82,205 24,397

357,306 87,756 The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Tltat

was the amount that was left after the Sub­Department of Forestry took its portion of it. Last year royalties would be about £600,000.

Mr. NICKLIN: I admit that other amounts were made available from the Unem· ployment Relief Fund, but comparing the expenditure from the loan fund with the revenue, the proportion expended last year is approximately the same as in 1930-31.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The trouble dates back to before the former Secretary's occupancy of office. It goes back to the Government' of the past who spent nothing in reforestation.

Mr. NICKLIN: It was only during the time of the hen. member for Cunningham

that any real interest was shown in reforesta­tion work in Queensland. I am very pleased to know that since then an increased amount of money has been expended on this impor­tant work. The unfortunate part of the whole business is that we did not start this spending of money very many. years ago, because if we had we should have timber to take the place of the marketable timber that will be exhausted in the next few years.

Another unfortunate feature of this matter is that the greater part of the money received from the sale of timber goes into consolidated revenue, instead of to reforesta­tion work. That has been the policy of the Government. and I know that the Minister does not altogether agree with it. I hope that before very long the present policy will be &ltered and a definite amount of monev will be allocated from the proceeds of the saJe of our timber to reforestation work. The making of loan allocations from year to year has not been of benefit to reforestation, and it has not permitted of a continuity of policv. Officers of this sub-department are depe;,dent each year on tho amount they can obtain from loan funds. If in one year there is a shortage of loan money, then reforesta­tion work suffers, the available money being allocated to more spectacular jobs round the cities where the Government can get more kudo~ from its expenditure. The present policy is handicapping the sub-department. It prevents our officers from planning ahead for a continuity of supply.

I should like to take the opportunity of paying a tribute to the officers of the Sub· Department of Forestry. In those officers w_e have a particularly fine team of men, and If they get the opportunity they will make up tho deficiencv in reforestation work that has been a featui·e of this State's activities in the past. The trip to Canada by Mr. Grenning should prove of great benefit to this State, as he possesses an intimate knowledge of all phases of forestry work. I am sure that the information he has gained as a result of his visit will prove of benefit to Queens· land, and will be reflected in the future activities of his department. We all look forward with interest and pleasure to read­ing the report which he will shortly submit on his trip oYerseas.

No doubt, we in this State are facing a very definite softwood shortage, and, unfor­tunately, the amount of reforestation work that is being done will not make up the deficiency. It is very doubtful whether the policy of selling as much of our soft woods as we can is to our advantage. There should be some rationing of the available supplies.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Will you tell the sawmillers that?

Mr. NIGKLIN: Yes: and I will tell the hon. gentleman something about them shortly. In the marketing of our soft timbers the millers are obtaining a rebate on export to the Southern States. That rebate was given, I understand, to urovide work in Queensland for Queensland saw­millers and sawmilling hands. Yet we find that logs are brought down to the mills here, cut into flikhes, and sent to the Southern States, where the final milling is done. That work is thus denied to the sawmilling workers here in Queensland.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : The sa wmillers are doing that.

Mr. Nicklin.]

730 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

:\fr. NICKLI:"; : But the Minister has the matter in his own hands. If that rebate was withdrawn, it would be found that a great deal of the timber at present going South would be finally milled in Queensland into building ·izes, and Queensland would retain the \TOr k in its mills.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: You ~houlrl haYe a tc.lk with the Director of Fore,ts on that matter.

Mr. :\ICKLIN: The Government's scheme of paying a subsidy to the millers on the timber that thcv send to the Southern States vvould be "a good one if the timber was milled to building sizes in this State, but it is wrong to pay the subsidy when it is sold in flitches and is milled in the South.

Moreover. we are selling timber to the Southern States that we shall require in the very near future in onr own State; in fact, we shall soon find it necessarv to import timber for our own requirements. Undoubtedly there is going to be a shortage, and that is why I urge the Government to use some of the proceeds of the ·'ale, of tim her fer reforestation and not pay it all into consolidated revenue.

The SECRE'rARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: A large quantity of Oregon pine is sold in Brisbane for use bv Mouni, Isa and other mines. Shiploa,ds , of this timher in large sizes arrive regularly in the State and we cannot prevent that.

Mr. NICKLIN: The Minister says that large quantities of Oregon pine come to Queensland. but a considerabl<> part of it arrives in flitches and is milled in this State into building sizes.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLTC LANDS: Every bit .of Oregon pine required b.v Monnt Isa and other minE's comes out in sizes that are required in the mines. I think that you had better have a talk with the Director of Forests.

Mr. NIC'KLIN: I know that Oregon pine comes to Brishane in flitches and is milled in this State.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Very little.

Mr. l'\ICKLIN: I know that the sub· depa,rtment has made a splendid effort to plant quick-growing exotic pines in the coastal areas, especially near Beerwah and the Glass House Mountains so as to cope with the thnatened shortage of softwoods. The results achieved have been remarkable. It would be to the advantage of every hon. member to ns1t those areas to see what has been accomplished by the department in a few short years. Pine trees eirrht and nine

years old are being eut up into lO·inch boards. Uniortunatelv there was a slackeninrr in this program-me of planting owing to ~ome trouble that was experienced with the trees lhere, but I hope that in the vcrv near future it will be possible to extend the pl~nting becaus~ the results up to date cer­tamly warrant 1t. The results achieved in the regeneration of hardwood forests adjacent to the metropolitan area, and on the North Coast in the Mapleton district in particu· lar, justify an extension of this work too. Some of our hardwood, particularly black· butt. a quick-growing variety, can serve purposes for which softwood is being used to-day.

[lJ!Ir. Nicklin.

I do not know whether the sub-department has given adequate consideration to the damage caused annually by the devastating bush fin's that race through our timber areas. Owing to the very dry conditions I ast year, bush fires were responsible for the d<>·.truction of hundreds of thousands of pounds' worth of our beautiful young timber. Although I admit that the fires. perhaps, did not originate an Crown land. I think it is time that the sub.department considered some scheme of controlling bush tires, not only on public land but also on private land. The construction of fire· breaks along the main roads would do much to prevent the spread of these disastrous fires which cause so much damage to our hardwood areas in particular.

Reforestation work could also he extended by encouraging private owners to plant small plot·< of exotic pines •on their own land. In the older countries of the world. particularly in France and Belgium, and to a 1rsser .fleg-roe in Great Britain. on every farm small plots are devoted to the growing of timber for the purpose of pro· viding shelter for cattle, firewood, and timber required on the farm. Those small copses, as they are called, were certainly a great advantage during the war period. I•> France timber was cut from these small copses for the construction of corduroy roads, the building of trenches and othN purposes, and the quantity of timber that C·ould be milled from these small areas was really an eve-opener to us all. I suggest that a similar policy should be followed in this countrv. One or two men on the North Co,ast hav"e alr<>ady adopted this policy. One place on which it has been done can be seen from the Maroochvdore r.cad. It 1vas started a few years ago "by Mr. Hooper, The land was a worn-out pineapple cultiva· tion about an acre and a-half in extem. Although these pine trees have been planted ahout six years only, they are 40 or ~0 feet high. Next yeftr, when this patch is thinned. it will furnish quite a large amount of timber for case making. Mr. Walker. of Beerburrum, has also used &ome old pine­apple land to plant pine tr0es. He thinks it more profitable to use this land in that way than renovate it for fruitgrowing. In time this svstem will be profitable. The principle could 'be extended bv private landowners in many parts of the State, especially now that many of our natur.al timbers are being exhausted. The depart­ment should encourage private persons tD plant an acre or two of quick.growing

[1ines. It wonld provide a means of using and whose fertility had been reduced by

many years of cultiva,tion and, in addition, would reduce the shortage of softwoods lhat faces us in the near future. The department eould help by making young trees available at the minimum pos,;ible cost to meet the requirements of persons desirous of engaging in this scheme.

The Main Roads Commission is wisely developing a policy of planting trees along­•ide main roads. I suggest that in carrying out that policy trees be used that would be of some marketable value instead of merely ornamental. We see the wisdom of this course demonstrated admirably in the older parts of the world, especially along the old R·oman roads that run across France. Each side of those roads is flanked by trees lhat have proved very useful to that country

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 731

If instead of mango and other ornamental trees the Commission planted timbers that will be of value in the future, the dual purpose would be served of not only beau­tifying our roads, but also of providing timber supplies.

Although quite a large amount of build­ing is proceeding in the cities and towns, therB is certainly a slump in ,the timber trade, particularly in regard to hardwoods. A number of the smaller sa wmillers are having difficulty in obtaining orders and keeping their mills working full time. In fact, the majority of them are only working part time. They say that much of the trouble is caused through their being undercut by sellers of hardwoods imported from ~ew South Wales. They contend that this is due in no small measure to the hig-h royalties charged by the depart­ment. The rate of railage is also a factor. I hope the Minister will look into this matter and see if some aid cannot be given to country sawmil!ers to enable them to meet this competition.

The SECR.2TARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Any help we give by reducBd royalties will be offset by a further cut in the price by the price-cutter.

Mr. NICKLIN: I do not know whether that will happen.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~ms : I am sure it will. Past experience has shown that.

Mr. NICKLIN: The situation could prob­ablv be met bv a conference between thB·"e sa.,:millcrs anci the Minister or officers cf his department. Some schBmo might be evolved then to help these millers.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : The only remedy is to bring in a Bill to provide for a minirr1un1 price.

Mr NICKLI~ : That is a matter for future discussion.

Last year I raised the question whether it would not be possible to supply from our native timbers the wood wool that is needed in this State.

I understand that experiments are being carried out and I should like to know from the Minister what is being done and what results are being achieved.

The SEORETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : We will send you a sample of the wood wool and you can send a sample of pineapples packed in it.

Mr. NIGKLIN : The growers are using well over 100 tons of wood wool each year of an approximate value of slightly over £2,000; and the greater part of this money is going out of the State, some to Tas­mania and some to Sweden. The fruit­growers would much prefer to use Queensland wood wool, provided it compared favour­ably in quality and price with the imported product from Tasmania and Sweden. The Minister suggested that we should send him a case of pineapples packed in Queensland wood wool in a Queensland-grown timber.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I did not mean to me personally.

Mr. NICKLIN: I hope that· in the near future we may have the opportunity of doing so. At any rate, I am pleased to see that by using the thinnings of the Beer­wah forest the department has made a number of cases, which it distributed amongst

the growers for trial purposes. I saw some of those cases last Monday and they were very fine samples, and I feel sure that the shortage that the growers will have to face in the future in case supplies will be largely made up by cases manufactured from the thinnings at Beerwah.

I am pleased to note that the Director of Forests is taking such a keen interest in this problem. I supplied him, at his request, with the approximate number of fruit cases used in Queensland, and he was amazed to learn the amount of timber that was used. As a result of his inquiries, he is now making available the thinnings of the Beerwah fore-st for the manufacture of these cases. The first of the oases has been made and shortly will be tried. \Ve have not got the Queensland wood wool yet, but if the Minister sends up a small bale I will guarantee to have the pineapples packed in the case.

Mr. BRAND (!si,,) [11.15 a.m.]: Refore· station is a great national work, and the Sub-Department of Forestry is a very impor­tant one. We have been fortunate in having had an abundant supply of natural timbers in this State. Some of the best pines in the world are to be found here.

We all realise that we owe a dutv to com­ing generations, and it is encumbent on us to see that we make provision for the future when the present supplies are absorbed. In this respect it is comforting to know that much is being done in the advancement of silviculture. The vote provides £39,825 for \\'ages and salaries for the Sub-Depart­ment of Forestry, and there is also an amount from the Trust and Special Funds of £346,000, to be spent by the department in the protection of our forests. Much money can be profitably spent in reforestation.

An outstanding hoop pine forest known as the Goodnight forest reserve is situated in m.1- electorate. It is the only forest in the State that provides for its own regeneration; in others the young trees have to be hand­planted. Natural regeneration is taking place there continuously. The Minister paid a visit to it during the year and recognised the national value of that scrub. He indi­cated to the people there that he would lend his support to the making of access roads to join up with main roads, thus enabling that forest w0a.lth to be marketed as econo­mically as po,sible. I trust the hon. gentle­man will give me some information on this matter. I understand the work was to be done by the Public Estate ImprO\·ement Branch. The reserve is a verv fine one and supplies the matured pine requirements of the surrounding district. but access facilities are very poor indeed. 'Some of the surround­ing settlers, who also have pine areas, com­plain that the money being spent is not being used in the direction intended by the Minister. It was understood that acceos roads as feeders to main roads would be constructed by the Main Roads Commission. Such a forest as this is well worthy of the help that is now forthcoming. Much work can be done there for the protection of soft­woods for the future generations of Queens­land. We owe that to them.

Mr. NIMMO (Oxley) [11.22 a.m.]: The work done bv the Sub-Department of Forestry shows· the possibilities the timber industry has for Queensland. I am very pleased with it. The objection I take to the present policy is to the payment of the

Mr. Nimmo.]

732 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

royalties into consolidated revenue and the financing of reforestation work from loan fund. Recently I noticed in the Press that good work has been done on the l\'orth Coast. and this prompted me to make an inveetigation of what has been done there. The result of my inquiries is rather startling. Trees planted there in 1928, the Director of Forests assure' me. would return if cut now the whole of the capital expendi­ture. No business that I have ever been asso­ciated with has shown such a return as this.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS : It was not always so. A few years ago the forestry returns were about 2~ per cent. They now come up to about. 4 per cent.

Mr. NIMMO: I saw prospectuses some years ago that promised very valuable returns from the investment of money in forests.

The SECRETARY FOR PFBLic LAKDS : I can show you that there were some verv unfortu­nate shareholders in that concern:

:\Ir .. XIMMO : The right people were not handlmg the undertaking. Forestry will pay g_ood returns. I was rather surprised to hear that. although the planting was not done before 1927 or 1928. the timber could now be cut and sold. and the returns would more than equal the money expended.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIO LA:-.DS: About 4 per cent.

Mr. "liM:!YIO: \Ve ha Ye heard a good deal of noise about the wonderful work per­formed by the Sub-Department of Forestry. So far as my judgment goPs. and from what I hear. the whole of the planting done in Queensland does not amount to last year's cut. That fact alone shows the tremendous leeway .w: have to make up, e.nd I charge the Mmister with the responsibility of rcturmng the monev taken from these assets of the S~ate, or half ,of it at any rate, into rcforestatwn work. \\ e should not leave the ta&k to posterity. \Ve dwuld not burden posterity with interc,t on monev borrowed to put back the assets we have taken.

It was pleasing to hC'ar the hon. member for YJ:urrumba suggest the wisdom of private plantmg. I saw a rather striking illustra­twn of what can be done in Victoria some time ago. I happened to go to some fruit f~rms there, and I found that about thirty­eight years ago the occupiers of those farms had planted pmes round the border of their farms as wind breaks. To-dav those farms have sawmilling plants, and they cut alter­nate trees. for case-making. Although one ~arm reqmred 15,000 cases for p<i·cking fruit, It was able to draw all the pine it required from the property. That is an illustration of the huge possibilities of a reasonable volume of timber planting by private persons.

I claim that extensive work could be oor­ried out with our standing hardwoods. I kn_ow that the sub-department is trying to thm _out c~rtam areas to protect the young growmg timber, but I should like to see the possibilities explored a little further. For instance, in my electorate there is an area of land known as the Areherfield estate .. It is a~ the present time held by the Brrsbane City Council on account of rates. I think in all the area comprises about 5,000 acres.

Mr. PowER: And there are a few brumbies out there, too.

[Mr. Ximmo.

Mr. NIMMO: Yes; and if they are not brumbies they are ordinary horses that have got away, and no one seems to bother about impounding them. The area is within 10 miles of Brisbane, and I think the City Council would be glad to· part with it for about 4s. 6d. an acre. I know that another area was sold in that locality recently at 4,,_ 6d. an acre. and I think the Minister would Le well advised to get in touch with the council with a view to taking over that area. It is carrying some '\\'Onderful young hardwood timber. and by the planting of some carob< .1n pines along the sandy ridges conld be developecl into a wonderful beauty spot. to which r~sidents of the city could be invited to see what the Sub-Deparcment of Forestry is doing in meeting the impend­ing acute timber shortage. I do not know what reserve the council has on the land, although I remember £900 was supposed to be owing on the land in rates.

Mr. HTSLOP: Do you think the Blunder would be a true name ?

::\fr. NTMMO : I am speaking about Archerfield. I know the area the hon. member has referred to; many persons go out there to pick wild flowers on Sundays. Perhaps the hon. member has been amongst them. I submit the suggestion to the ::\Iinister in all seriousness. as I believe the area would be a valuable asset to Queens­land. H would enable the sub-department b carrv out ,-aluable work and provide a beauty spot for Brisbane once the trees were planted and the existing trees thinned a little.

Mr. DEACON (Cunningham) [11.30 a.m.]: Wise administration has a considerable bear­ing upon all land operations, not only from the point of view of revenue but also because of the benefits that mav be conferred on other industries. There· is one thing that the man on the land cannot do without, and that is timber. He cannot successfully carry on his farming or pastoral operations with­out it, quite apart from the construction of buildings. In the city it is possible to con­struct buildings of brick or stone, but the farmer cannot build a fence of brick or stone, and in some parts of the State it is becoming increasingly difficult to get enough timber even for that purpose. The lack of it is even holding back settlement in some cases.

The steady filling up of our dreeks and rivers has become very marked and is noticed not only by country people but also by others who visit these areas. These condi­tions are becoming apparent almost all over the State. The filling up of chains of deep waterholes along creeks and rivers is more noticeable where the heads of the streams have been cleared or partly cleared or where the ridges have been ringbarked so as to promote a better growth of grass. Although the washing away of silt may not be very perceptible in the virgin country, it is very noticeable that lower down the streams where the timber has been cleared or ring­barked the waterholes are becoming spoilt. These holes along the water-beds were at one time regarded as natural reservoirs and considerable areas of land depend upon them for their water supplies. Some of them were a mile long, others less, but generally there was a succession of deep waterholes along the rivers and creeks. They are now being gradually filled up. The evidence of this is much more obvious in some parts than in

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 733

()ther,. The Condamine. which at one time ('ould rightly be called a river, is fast becoming a mere gully.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:i"DS : \V e refused to grant permission to cut timber at the !wad of the Condamine River although a request was made to us some years ago.

Mr. DEACOX: I can understand that. There is always a cry for that.

The SECHETARY FOH PUBLIC LANDS: They wanted more timber.

::\Ir. DEACOX: The silting up is taking place not only in the Condamine itself, but also in its tributaries that flow down the rangy ard ridgv country where a tremendous amount of timber clearing has taken place. Of course, this timber was cleared more in the interests of grazing than to obtain mill­ing supplies.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC .LAXDS: That 'vas dono years ago.

Mr. DEACOX: I am only outlining the €Yil effects that have now becomf! apparent to warn the Minister that he should consider the wisdom of taking action where the damage has not yet been done so as to save other streams from a similar fate. The silt­ing up of streams n1eans a serious loss to many industries and to the State generally.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : \V e are not going to allow any timber to be cut at the head of any ri.-er in Queensland.

Mr. DEACON: I am glad to know that. It is a pity that that policy was not adopted when Queensland was first settled, but, of course no one could foresee the dama!!e that would be done. It ~annot be repaired now; it is quite impossible to replace the timber. and so the erosion in the affected areas will go on. I urge that the timber at the head of all creeks and rivers should be retained. I;ron. members in this Chamber sometimes put forward the plea that certain areas should be thrmvn open for selection even though only a few farms can be made avail­able. That is a mistake. Even if a few small areas are available at the head of a <Jreek for dairying purposes, the Government should look at the bigger issue of the pre­servation and the "atering of the country below. In no instance should the timber be allowed to be cut at the head of any creek or river, and if that country is in the hands vf the Crown it should remain so. All rangy country that has not been alienated should be treated as leasehold country.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: That is the danger of freehold.

Mr. DEACOK: The Minister is encourag­ing settlers to ringbark, even in leasehold country. I reminded him ye,terday that he ()pened the Eungella Range country, which is the head of several streams. The head of the Pioneer River is there. The Minister is responsible for opening that country to selection for dairying purposes.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : That was many years ago.

Mr. DEACON: It was only two or three years ago. Certainly a little of that <Jountry was opened some years ago, but the greater part was opened to selection in recent years. In fact, it is only in the last two or three years that the Minister has opened it. Although the Minister says he will not open

this country again to selection that is no excuse for his doing it there.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : You say we did it; I say we did not do it.

Mr. DEACOX: The Minister cannot deny that he opened the Eungella Range selec­tions.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : 1 do deny that wo allowed any trees to be cut adjacent to a river that would likely cause any trouble.

Mr. DEACON: The Eungella. lands were thrown open to general settlement and the settler had the right to do anything he liked with them. Ko restrictions were placed on the use of the timber. In fact, the settlers were told that thev could cut the timber down and sell it. I dare sav that thev out down as much as possible and sold it .. The fact remains that an error was committed there. I hope it will not be repeated.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS: No, there was no error. It is a very mce settlement.

Mr. DE ~COX: The Minister will not admit it was an error but it was, whether he admits it or not.

Mr. PowER: You a.re making heavy weather of it.

Mr. DEACON: I a.m not; I am simply reminding the Minister of that little error. It is just a.s well to remind him of it every year. As time goes on we shall remind him of it a. little more. If that error is rubbed into him it will probably keep him from making the same one again.

I am very glad to hear of the succe's of the planting of pine trees on the North Coast. Much of that country is of no use for cultivation. There are old banana and pineapple lands in that area, especially in the Beerburrum soldier settlements, from which the soldiers could not make an exist­ence, where pine trees would do very well. I understand that the work of reforestation is being pushed on, but much larger sums could be spent on reforestation in that dis­trict than at present. It is work that is well worth expending money on. Some of the money spent in other directions could he more usefull-y spent by the Sub-Depart­ment of Forestry in planting young trees.

Another matter I hope the Minister will pay attention to is the destruction thrrt is being wrought by the mistletoe. I brought this matter up last year. This parasit.o appears to <J.ttack the spotted gum and red gum chiefly, especially the former. Wherever the spotted gum grows. as on the slopes of the range, the number of dead and dying trees appears to be greater every month. and the mistletoe may be seen on trees in all stages of growth down to the saplings a few feet high. Spotted gum or red gum are more subject to att<J.ck by this parasite than the ironbark or the box, which appear to he almost entirely free from it. The destruction of the spotted gum, which provides a splendid hardwood and is one of our hest timbers, is of grave importance. It i.s not nearly so valuable when it is ,dead. The enormous increase of the mistletoe has been attributed to the fact that the opossum, which feeds largely on it, has been con­siderably reduced in numbers. I understand that as a. result of investigation the officera of the Sub-Department of Forestry hold thir.

Mr. Deacon.}

734 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

opinion. It is beyond question that very extensive damage is being done to our timber in this way, and the destruction is not confined to one locality.

The PREMIER : It does a great deal of harm, all right.

::VIr. DEACON: It is important that W<' should find out the reason for the growth of this pest, because unless it is checked in the near future tremendous destruction of our timber will result. I suggest that the Minister should have the mistletoe chopped out in those areas where it has not appeared in large quantities. I believe they have the same pest in India, where they spend a considerable amount of money in endeavour­ing to check its ravages. Having cheap labour available, they put gangs on to chop down the mistletoe wherever it is seen. The workmen have to climb the trees to chop it off, but it would be a considerable undertaking to climb the spotted gum here. It would be better to sacrifice one tree that harboured the pest rather than allow the pest to multiply and destroy the whole forest. There is a big area of it on the Liverpool Range near the railway. In fact, on ev('ry range, wherever the gum grows, you may s"'' large areas of trees that are being- destroyed. The Minister may be able to obtain the services of a gang of rehef workers for the purpose of chopping out the pest where it has not spread to any extent.

Mr. NIMMO: What about providing opossums?

Mr. DEAC0::'-1 : That would be a pretty slow business. It would take a long time to g<'t the country well stocked again. The opossum skin is still saleable outside the country, and notwithstanding close seasons it can be smuggled out. It is being killed at the present time, and the skin is being smuggled away. There are itinerant dealers who are always willing to buy the skins, and it is very difficult to ensure any increase in the number of opossums.

Mr. RusSELL: They" are prolific breeders.

Mr. DEACON: Yes: and there are some prolific killers, who poison a great number of opossums in a very short time. I do not know that it is possible to breed opossums in sufficient numbers, but it can be tried. In the meantime the Minister should con­sider whether it is worth advising the Government to take a hand in ridding the trees of mistletoe by Qhopping it out.

Mr. T. L. WILLIAMS (Port Curtis) [11.49 a.m.]: Having already spoken on forestrv matters on the Chief Office vote, I shall not take up much qf the time of the Committee, but I desire to mention a matter th-at the Minister should have investigated. The Land Administration Board demands of settlers who get wire-netting for fencing purposes through it that they shall clear the land for a distance of 10 feet on either side of the fence of all standing timber. Of course, damage can be clone to a fence by falling trees, but it is not reasonable to impose on settlers this hard and fast rule of clearing a 10-feet strip of land on each side of the fence. I understand that this cause for complaint has existed for a long period.

Another matter that might be considered ts the charges made on settlers who fence

[Mr. Deacon.

land adjoining forest reserves. I under­stand that when there are no posts available on the settler's area the department charges 15s. a hundred. An adjustment could be made, particularly when the forest factor reports that timber available on the settler's area is not suitable for fencmg purpose''·

The system of logging contracts should also r"ccive wme consideration. The older contractors complain that they are being pushed out by newcom?rs with modern means of transport. This IS to be expected­in this as is in all other industries, it seems to be ~ case of the survival of the fittest­but these older men have helped in the formation of small townships, and are responsible for their development. It is their children who keep the schools going and the business people operating. They now have to play second and even third fiddle to the owners of more modern means of transport for conveying timber from forest reserves to the railhead. Some considera­tion might be given to such men who are not in a financial position to. buy modern co1wevances for hauling log timber, ccnd 1t might. be possible to give them certain haularre contracts in the localities closer to the r~ilway system. It is a very difficult problem, because, as in all branches of inclus­trv the man who cannot perform h1s work e~peditiously must give way to him who can.

Several hon. members spoke of planting commercial timbers on road frontages and on private holdings. They gave instances where such planting had been succes~ful m other parts of the world, and even m our mvn country, wher.e a number of settlers planted pine and sJlky oak" trees on two or three acres of land for wh1ch they had no other use.

On the Maroochy road-I think the hon. member for :VI m·rumba instanced this case -a man who previously engaged in pine­apple growing has now abandoned that pursuit and gone in for th_e growing of pi?e timber. He found that h1s land was emm­ently suitable for th<; growing of p_ine a?cl• although his plantatiOn has been m exist­ence for only about six or seven years, the timber has grown to such an extent that he is satisfied that he will eventually be on a good wicket.

On the Continent, and in the other States of the Commonwealth, the planting of useful commercial types of trees along highways has been undertaken and every now and again a mature tre'e is taken away _for milling and replaced by a tree of a s1m1lar species. I think the Sub-Department of Forestry could help the settlers of this State to do something along those lines" The cost of the seedlings would really be the only cost. I do not advocate giving young trees to settlers or shire councils-and the charge to the purchaser should only be a nominal one to cover the cost of raising them. I think some good would come of such a policv. Of course, it would be many years before any direct benefit would be apparent, and I think that if the trees were planted some distance from the roadway their roots would not interfere with the bitumen or concrete surface to anv extent. I am think­ing mainly of settlers ~ho desire to set aside for reforestation 2 or 3 acres of land for which they have no further use. Those areas in the end would l:)ecome an asse1, and be worth the expenditure of money and time in planting and looking after them.

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 735

Mr. HISLOP (Sandoate) [11.56 a.m.]: I am afraid that on this question we have some alarmists in the Chamber. The short­age of timber is a very ·old tale. Thirty-five years ago Queensland was going to be depleted of her silky oak resources within fi, e years, if the rate at which it was being cut was maintained. At the present time we still have an ample supply of silky oak.

The Sub-Department of Forestry has dono some wonderful work in reforestation, but the greatest work it could do is to encourage the use of other timbers not so popnlarlv known at the present time. Much has beel1 ,.aid about pine. and a ·\hortage of pine for a while might do this country a go.ocl service, because I think pine timbers have been misused for many years. People want pine just because it is nice and white, but what is the use of a white pine floor when you cover it with floorcloth? There are other timbers more suitable for floors than pine, such as rose mahogany. Last session I spoke of the timber used in the lining of houses. I remember seeing a room lined with one of the most despised timbers in Que<mslancl, brush box. I doubt if the timber merchants in Brisbane know of it. It has a beautiful figure and it lends itself admirably to lining and finishing work in homes. but nobodv knows of it. vVe have other timbers tha:t will take the place of pine in the furnishing trade. We have mountain ash. which is very useful. but is not being used as much as it might be. We also have satinav, another admirable timber. The trouble is that if you go into a timqer yard in Brisbane and ask for anything but pine or hardwood you cannot get it. Black bean is another beautiful timber. of which people have not availecl themselves. I venture to say that you could not buv 1 foot of it in anv timber varcl in Brisbane. I think that our 'timber merchants could help the State by milling such timbers and so popularising them. That would reduce the drain on the standard timbers we are complainimr about. Queensland has a verv fine selection of timbers. It has almost the equivalent of all the timbers to be found in the world. We have the hardest timbers and some of the softest timbers. Although we are supposed to have two kinds of hardwood. one is reallv in the softwood class. They should be llsed to a greater extent for the purposes for which the softer timbers are used to-clay.

There is much prejudice against the use of some of our timber for tool handles, such as axe and pick handles, because the public have been <"ducatecl to demand a white handle, perhaps of American timber. If they are offered an axe handle that is dark in colour they think it must be of inferior w-ood but our Queensland hickory, crew's foot elm, and gum, are far superior to many imported timbers for the making of tool handles. I have an axe handle made from water gum that has been in use for several vcars and it has ouHastecl American ash handles two or three times over.

I commend the sub-department on its effort to popularise these otherwise despised timbers. I understand that the State Advances Corporation is co-operating with it in the use of these timbers, and this will reduce the drain that undoubtedly exists to-clay on the supplies of pine, brought about I repeat largely by its misuse.

Mr. MAHER (TV est ,}I ore ton) [12.3 p.m.]: I do not think that the Minister should lightly regard the subject mentioned by the hon. member for Cunningham, the destruc­tion of growing timber by the mistletoe. There is no doubt that it is incr·easing along the banks of the Mcintyre and Dumaresq Rivers on the border of Queensland and :'\ew South \\'ales. During the past seven­teen or eighteen years I have noticed a very great increase in the spread of this pe,,t and if it is allowed to continue the beautiful gums and ·other trees that front these and other streams will be utterly destroyed, and so there will be an accelera­tion of silting up. Silting has been helped by the tremendous amount of ring­barking tha,t has been done. Probably many persons do not realise the clangers of ring­barking along the banks of streams. It is within living memory that beautiful water­holes -of great depth were to be found along these river ba.nks, but to-clay it is possible to drive a motor car across the streams iu place'. At a '"ater-conscrvation meeting held in Gatton bst Saturday I heard Coun­cillor J\Ietcalf, of the Tarampa Shire Council, say that in his young days there was a waterhole 35 feet deep in Ma Ma Creek, where to-drry a big tree is growing. That means that the hole has silted up, and that there is no water there now. That helps us to understand the very great problem that awaits solution, unless we take prompt action to control the spread of the mistletoe. It is safe to say that unless action is taken immediately the next fifty years will undoubtedly see the destruction of all the gum and other trees at present to be found along our inland streams. The task will be quite a big one, and therefore I suggest to the Minister that he should instruct his land rangers to report on the e:>.tent of the mistletoe infe>tation in their respective areas, so that he and his officers may have some understanding ·of the loss that must occur from the destruction of these valuable timbers, and consequent silt­ing up of streams.

The mistletoe chiefly attacks our most valuable hardwood, viz., spotted gum. It is strange that the mistletoe appears to have a particular attachment for it. Therefore, we must consider this twofold effect. It is but another instance of nature out of balance. Man destroys the opossum, which previously thrived on the mistletoe, and its natural enemy having been largely exterminated the mistletoe spreads until it becomes a Yer~~ serious danger to our timber reserve~ and stream;;. The Minister is the cus­todian of the State for0sts, and to him we must look to take a lead in this matter. If he calls for a report from his land rangers and ascertains the extent of the damage, together with their sug­gestions as to how this problem should be tackled, he might get some valuable help. The hon. member for Cunningham suggested using relief labour to ·destroy the mistletoe in <;ertain areas. It is extremely advisable that some kind of labour should be used for that purpose along the banks of our streams and in our valuable hardwood forr·sts. It is a question that might well engage the attention of the Minister.

During the winter months I made a tour of North Queensland, where I visualised the very great necessity in opening up new

Mr. Maher.]

736 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

country in our jungle areas for the preserva· tion of a certain area of timber on both sides of the road for scenic purposes.

'I'he SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : We are doing that more than ever before in the history of Queensland.

Jlilr. MAHER: There has been a shocking neglect of that necessity in the past. The conscience of the Northern people is being awakened to-day to the extraordinary beauty of their jungle areas. The drive from Innis· fail to Millaa Millaa. is one of the most beautiful drives in Australia.. It would be a tragedy if anything happened whereby the beautiful avenue of native trees was destroyed. Future generations and tourists would be denied the enjoyment of a beauty that appeals to most of us. I am glad to know that the Minister is alive to the neces· sitv of maintaining a reasonable depth of this jungle on both sides of new roads that may be constructed to open up settlement, forest, or mining areas.

Considering the enormous increase in revenue obtained in recent times by ·the department from the sale of log timber, there has been a. comparatively small increase in reforestation work. For example. in 1931-32, when. on account of the depression, only limited financial resources were available, 1.985 acres were reforest<>d, w hcreas in 1935-36. with abundant rm·ennes, the acreage planted was only 2,364. The increase was negligible. In 1931-32 the GovE'rnment onlv had a net revenue from forestry operations of £44.585.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : You are not going to blame me for that?

Mr. MAHEH : I am not. What I blame the Minister for is for not increasing the acreage of plantations when the revenue is abundant. I am showing that with limited financial resources the former Minister, in 1931-32. nlanted nearly 2,000 acres of forests. In 1936-37, instead of £44,585, the Minister had £286,346 net revenue.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS ; Are you going to praise us for that?

Mr. MAHER: I am not going to bestow !LilY praise on the Minister; on the contrary I am going to criticise him severely.

The SECRE"fARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : What for?

Mr. MAHER: Because. with an abundance of revenue, he has failed to make a yearly increase in the number of acres planted with trees.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Who is responsible for the increased revenue?

Mr. MAHER: The Minister is trying to take credit for the increased revenue, but surely, if the Minister finds his revenues are buoyant, he is bound to lay down a vigorous plan of reforestation in order th~Lt we shall have timber in the future to replace what we are killing so rapidly to-day. For example, according to the report of his department for the year 1935-36, in 1931-32 38,500,000. wper. feet of mill logs were cut, whereas m 1 'i35-36 the cut was 148,000,000 feet.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS; That, of course, is Crown cutting only.

Mr. MAHER: It indicates the source of the Minister's revenue. It is the rate at which the fore~·ts are being used up that is responsible for the increase in revenue. 'I'he Minister does not deserve any spe<;ial bouquet

[Mr. Maher.

in that respect. I am not objecting to a cut of that magnitude, but I say that when we are using up 148,000,000 super: feet. compared with 38.500,000 super. feet m 1931-32, and when the Minister is deriving a greatly increased revenue in consequence, there is a clear dutv on him to spend a greater sum from his· revenue to replace the trees that have been taken out. The Minister is not doing that. Obviously he is using the Sub­Department of Forestry to bolster up _con· solida.ted revenue. The budgetary pos1tJon of th0 GoYernment is being studied rather than the interests of future generations.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LAXDS: You would sooner see increased taxation.

Mr. MAHER: That is not my job. The Minister is a member of the Government who are where they are to solve the financial rroblems of the ~tatc. I~ ~eems to me a sound and unassailable prmc1ple of govern· ment that if we take £286.000 out of forestry, after paying all the costs involYed, we are in duty bound to put the bulk of that money back into foresh·v in order to <'nsure that there shall be an· adequate supply of timber for the use of future generations. Instea_d of doing- that we arc selfishly denudmg th1s State of its timber; we are taking the profits and using them for ordinary consolida!ed l"CYenue purposes. I ask: Are we playmg the game with our sons and daughters and with their sons and d!Lughters and the gpneration• for the next five hundred years who will need timber for the purposes of their times? Is it not .a sound principle that if \VC take out 148,000,000 super. feet of timber from Crown sources we should at least allocate a sufficient amount of the revenue that has been derived from it to putting trees in those timber areas that it!. their maturity will approximate to that 148,000,000 feet?

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LAXDS : What are the other Governments of Australia doing?

Mr. MAHER: That is another matter. I am concerned with Queensland, and I am basing my criticism on the position as I see it here. But if the Minister is so anxious to make comp!Lrisons let us have a. look at what the Victorian Government are doing.

The Victorian Budget for 1936-37 shows the net revenue from forestry operations at £198 000 and the appropriations for refore· stati~n for 1937-38. by the Victorian Country Party Government, are-

From consolidated revenue From Forestry Fund From loan sources From Commonwealth-States

Scheme

£ 105,000

79,000 129,000

50,000

No doubt the last-mentioned scheme is under the Federal Aid Roads Agreement, the revenue from which comes from the petrol tax but the fact rem!Lins that the total ambunt !Lppropriated from all sources for reforestation work by the Victorian Govern­ment is £363,000, as against !L net revenue. of £198,000. The expenditure on reforestatl<?n is approximately d?uble the net r.eve_nue m Victoria whereas m Queensland 1t 1s only 34 per ~ent. of it and that 34 per cent. all comes from loan funds.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LAXDS : They were working out their forests and now haYe to pay the bilL

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.) Supply. 737

Mr. MAHER: Some future Government in Queensland will be faced with exactly the same position because of the short-sighted, unwise and imprudent policy pursued by the present Secretary for Public Lands. The hon. gentleman asked for comparisons with other States, and I have shown him that the Victorian Government have a wiser out­look on forestry problems than the Minister in charge of the destinies of the forestry in Queensland. From 1934-35 to 1936-37, a three­year period, the net revenue surplus from forestry operations in Queensland amounted to £828,798-approximately £1,000,000 was transferr<>d to consolidated revenue. There was no revenue expenditure for reforestation, but £283,318 was expended bv the Govern­ment from loan funds. These figures are striking. Is it not a crazy system of finance -in a three-year period not a £1 note from forestry operations goes back to forestry?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : That is where you are wrong.

Mr. MA HER: Not from net revenue. The Minister falls back on loan funds to the extent of £283,000. It is a peculiar method of finance-to take £828,000 out of the Sub-Department of Forestrv and not spend any of that money in that· sub-depart­ment, but to fall back on loan funds.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: That is not correct either.

l\1r. MAHER : Interest has to be paid on the money put into forestry, and it will take many years before the trees mature suflicicntlv to enable a profit to come from them. Of course, in the intervening period, the effect of the expenditure from loan funds adds to the dead weight of the public debt of the State, the unremunerative public debt that hangs like a millstone round our necks and makes it extremely difficult for the State to meet its obligations. The £828,000 net revenue from the Sub-DPpart­ment of Forcstr.v could hrtYC been expended in giving employment to men who ne0d it, planting additional trees and replacing those taken out with such great rapidity to-day.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : 'Would that not mean increasing taxation?

At 12.23 p.m., Mr. GLEDSON (Ipswich), one of the panel

of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Chair­man in the chair.

Mr. MAHER: It is the job of the hon. gentleman so to handle the finances of the State that there will be no need for higher taxation. The Minister is prepared to spend money in certain directions that may be socially desirable and may mean political success, but when it comes to spending money in order that our forests may be placed on a sound basis he is not prepared to look at it in the way he should.

It is the Minister's job in tbe present Cabinet to protect the interests of our forests, and stand up for their money needs to replace what has been destroyed. If he allows the needs of other Ministers and the policy of his party to destroy -his judgment he de certs the cause of forestry in Queens­land, and fails in his duty to the people, because the people of this country as a whole recognise the urgency of adequately develop­ing our forests.

There is no doubt that we took 148,000,000 feet of timber from Crown sources during the past financial year. There is an obliga-

1937-2A

tion on the Government to find an amount of money from forestry revenue to plant enough trees to equal the destruction that is taking place. If that policy is not pursued, what will be the position of Queens­land in 100 years' time? After all, 100 years is a mere nothing in the life of a nation. We have to lay down a sound policy to-day to ensure future supplies of timber to the people of this country.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : And we must not kill the people of to-day in doing that, by putting on them a burden it i• impossible for them to bear.

Mr. MAHER: We do not wish to do that, but the Minister must be prepared to put back enough money each year to equal in trees what he has taken out in timber. The day will come when his revenue from this sour<;e will shrink.

Mr. KING: What do you think is a fair thing to put back each year?

Mr. MAHER: What you take out. In 1932, and that is only five years ago, there was a revenue of £44,500 from that source.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. gentleman has exhausted the time allowed him under the Standing Orders.

Mr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) [12.27 p.m.]: The Minister is looking for bouquets.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS: No, l am only looking for a fair thing.

Mr. RUSSELL: Many bouquets have been thrown about in this Chamber. There has been a good deal of misapprehension as to what actually occurred in the pine industry in Queensland. We know that in 1931, during the depression, the sawmill~ng industrv had reached a verv low ebb. Mrlls were idle and a great number of mill hands were out of work. The Government of the day appointed a Timber Advisory Com­mittee to go into the whole question, and that committee sat for a considerable period and drew up certain recommendations as to what should be done.

I had the honour of being deputed by the then Government to make an investigation in the South as to what steps should be undertaken by the Government to resuscitate the export trade in timber, particularly in hoop pine. It was felt that, even if the mills were working at ful! swing the local market could not absorb their output, and it was essential that the Southern markets should be tapped. At that time there was a big accumulation in the Sot1th of stocks of imported timber, including Baltic a_nd American Douglas fir. The Southern mills interested in kauri pine were obtaining supplies from the island of Vanikoro, and the hardwood mills were Yery active in soliQiting business in local hardwoods, and altogether the Southern markets seemed to be fairly hopeless, and did not seem to offer the outlet we might have expected in normal circumstances. On my return from the South I presented a report to the Government and the principal recommen· dation I made was that in order to bring about a greater trade in the export of hoop pine it was necessary to make some adjust­ment in the royalties derived by the Crown from Crown logs. 'l'he then Minister, the hon. member for Cunningham. agreed to that policy. It was put into effect. under the Moore reo-ime and has been carried out ever smee by the present Administration. It had

Mr. Russell.]

738 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

the result of resuscitating the trade in hoop pine.

I should like to ;:ay to the hon. member for l'.Iurrumba that the trade in hoop pine to-day is not in junk timber or in flitches, that the trade is almost entirelv in the sawn product. That trade has de:;,eloped very largely indeed and in every timber yard in oYery larg-e centre in Australia, there will be found Queensland hoop pine milled in Queensland. Of course, we must admit that the trade benefited a good deal, first by the action of the Federal Government in placing a fairly heavy dutv on milled :Jouglas fir from the United States of America and Canada. and secondly, because owing to the scarcity of tonnage it was impossible to get bottoms to carry this lumber. particularly from Canada, because many ships had been diverted to carrying material required by European countries engaged in the armPment race. Those circumstances benPfited the Queensland industry considerably and in view of the increased price that was being obtained by the local sftwmillers. naturallv the Govern­ment readjusted their royit!ties. While it was a sound policv at the outset to give a solid rebate of the royalty on logs mwn fnr exnort the departrr>cnt was (juite entitled to readjust those values when th0 market advance in price took place. and 1 dare sav that to-dav the rebate on export timber i~ vcrv comidcrahly le's than at the initiation of the business.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LANDS : That IS SO.

Mr. RLTSSELL: Every week we see large shipmenb. not only of Queensland sawn timber going to Southern ports. but also very largP quantities of plywood.

'!'he effect of this nolicy has been-and this is reflected in the enormous earnings of the department-that we are rapidly approaching the time when supplies of our softwoods will not be available to saw­millers in Queensland. I think it is a fairlv accurate estimate that within five venr~ we shall see larg-e imnortations into this country of Canadian softwoods. mostly Doug-las fir and probablv hemlock for case purposes. T am afraid that that is inevit­able a.nd that some of the sawmillers in Queensland will have a very lean time because if the tradr> in imported Doll!rlas fir essumPs hug-e dimens:ons-as it will­the local tradr> ~vill probeblv be confined to the larc-er millers who ha,;e the plant for handling not only the flitches that will be shipped to this countrY but also the logs. At "ny rate. we must be prepared for that contingency. and the question arises: what will be the nolicv of the Government between now and then?

I am inclined to think that as the needs of the Treasurer are so urgent he will not desist from the yearly slaughter of pine trees. Although the Minister disclaims any rcspomibility for the allocation of these large sums of monev from the Sub-Depart­ment of Forestry, nerhaps for the aid of the Treasurer, still I think the time has arrived when the Government should recast their r>olicy. If we derive, sav. £1,000,000 in net revenue over the next five yE>ars from the sale of the·'"e logs, it will mean that although the Treasury may benefit to that extent, at the end of tha.t time that source of revenue will disappear entirely.

[ 1~1 r. Rttssell.

At the end of five vPars we shall have nothing to take the pface of our depleted pine forests. Therefore. the dutv devolves on the Government to look to the future, to see what policy should be adopted to meet the situation. As I said yrsterday. we might pay greater attention to the regeneration and reforestation of our hard­woods.

The Leader of the Opposition gave us some interesting figures about Victoria, but Victoria derives nearly all her revenue from royalties on her hardwoods which grow in the Yicinity of Melbourne. Melbourne has a very excellent timber industry at her back door. All the ranges round Melbourne are densely clothed with timber, mostly moun­tain ask-a quick-growing hardwood pro­ducing a very large crop to the acre. When it is thoroughly kiln-dried it makes a very fine timber for general purposes. Large quantities arc shipped to Great Britain for building purpose', where it is spoken of very highly. What has b0en done in Victoria can be done here. While it may not be possible to produce a hardwood like mountain ash in such a short space of time as it takes to mature in Victoria, nevertheless we can pro­ducfl hardwoods verv much denser than the Victorian hardwoods. It behoves us to set about this task at once and put into effect a sound policy for the regeneration ':nd reforestation of hardwoods of the ftrst qualtty. This can be done quite easily round the city of Brisbane. There is no reason why the whole of the Main Range should not be set apart for the regeneration and reforestation of our hardwoods, to be used bv our V\T e<Jtcrn friends. Fortunately for our f~r V\1 os tern citizens, we have very fine stands of cypress pine, which regenerates itself. It should be a fine adjunct to settlement in those areas.

The hon. member for Cunningharn opened up a very interesting aspect of fore,try by commenting on the destruction of our timbers on rivers and streams, particularly the head waters. ·we have the :Minister's assurance that this practice will be stopped. We have neglected our great heritage and wasted nature's leg·a0y, bnt it is not too late to retrace our steps. "While we are preventmg the denudation of these lands we should make some attempt also to prevent the poEution that goe' on in most of our fine fresh­water streams. Queensland is ve:y short of running stroan1s, and wherever one goes one must be disgusted with what is going on. We see beautiful streams polluted for com­mercial purpose,. We have only to l0ok round Brisbane for an examplfl. All our fresh-water streams are simply open sowers. As population increases similar practices are ndopted in other centres. The Government may claim they have no jurisdiction, but nfter all the Government are supreme, and something should be done to prevent the pollution that is going on to-day in our fresh-water streams.

A great number of mistakes have doubtless been made in the past in clearing our land for agriculture. Wherever one goes, particu­larly on river and creek banks, one is struck with the folly of early settlers in clearing all the timber a way from the banks of rivers or creeks. This has undoubtedly l0d to the silting up of those streams.

When travelling along the railway lino ono finds, in nearly every instance fo,r the sake of a few patches of grass, that timber has been cleared up to the alignment of the

S~tpply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 739

property. I was struck by the remark of an eminent member of the Empire Forestry Delegation that visit<>d Queensland wme years ago. He said that while travelling between Brisbane and Imbil he was verv much struck with the melancholv look in the eyes of the cows standing in the· blazing heat of a midsummer's day, unable to find a bit of shelter.

It is not too late, I think to trv to encourage our settlers to leave. a patch of timber on every selection. It would give shade for cattle and also beautify the country.

I offer these remarks in the hope that the Government will take into consideration the disaf·ter that must overtake our softwood industry in the very near future. It is too late now to attempt to makP up the leeway, because it would be impossible in the short space of time at our disposal. In five or six vears all the wftwood will be cut out and ~e shall have to depend for supplies on the overseas sources. Although that is inevitable we must find consolation in the knowledge that although we have cut down this timber -although we have desecrated our forests­we have certainl:v been able-for most hoop pine grows on fertile soil-to bring about closer settlement. Conflicts between closer sett lcment and forestry have been going on for a very long time, and it seems to me that the advocates of closer settlement have conquered and the advocatPs of reforestation have had to take a back seat.

\Ve may have to recast our ideas, and instead of devoting large sums of money to the replanting of our native softwoods it may be-it would be-far better to pa.y greater attention to the regeneration and r,'forestation of hardwoods, and wherever we have countrv available-such as the poor country on the North Coast-to embark on a vpry active campaign for the planting of importer! pine. \Vhile these pines are too knotty f01· building purposes, they are quick growers, and will serve a very useful pur­pose by providing timber for case making. At any rate we shall have done something useful for Queensland.

I know there are many advocates for the preser_vation of many of our native jungles 1n wh1ch to replant our native softwoods, but that is a very expensive operation, and the growth of these is so slow that the expense is not warranted. I think, therefore that the time is not far distant when our' beautiful native softwoods will become virtually extinct. If so. we must fall back on the other means I have mentioned.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, H erbrrt) [12.45 p.m.]: I commend the hon. member for Hamilton on his very interesting and worthwhile con­tribution to the debate.

I invite the persons who say we are doing nothing for forestry-Pspecially the Lea.der of the Opposition, who says, "You should have done much more, because you got so much more money "-to read what the officers of the various forestry departments in Aus­tralia said quite recently. I am not going to read the report; I leave it to hon. mem­bers to r<>ad it for themselves. In both the " Courier-Mail " and the " Telegraph" recently they could have read that every officer of forestry in Austra.lia who knew anything of his job sai·d that the Queensland Sub·Department of Forestry had done more in reforestation than any other similar department in Australia. I do not say

that in the hope of getting a pat on the back. Hon. members opposite should have taken a leaf out of the book of the hon. member for Hamilton an\! approached this matter in the spirit of helping the Govern­ment rather than saying things that are not true for the purpose of gaining a little political kudos. No hon. member on that side of the Committee is as qualifi,cd to express an opinion on forestry matters as theee forestry experts from all over Aus­tralia, including our old friend, Mr. Swa.in. Every officer of every forestry department in Australia has expressed the opinion that forestry work, particularly reforestation, is carried on to a greater extent in Queensland than in any other State in Australia.

"'fr. MoORE: Yon would not expect Mr. Swain to say anything else.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LAKDS: I expected hon. members to be fair enough to allude to the opinion of the experts on the work we are ·doin". After all, it is not the Government of the dav who are con­cerned. The weakness of the argument of hon. members opposite is exemplified in the fact that althongh they charge us with not spending e_nough for forestry purposes these experts pomt out that this Government ha.ve done more in reforpstation than anv other Government in the history of Queensland.

I shall prove tha.t by the official figures. Hon. members opposite should take a leaf from the book of the hon. member for Hamilton. He made a thoughtful speech ~nd touched upon various aspects of the mdustry. It is not political kudos that sho~ld count. Every forestry officer in Aus· treha who has expressed his opinion said that the reforestation policy pursued in QuLemland is the best in Australia.

Mr. MAHER: You should be planting-­

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC LAKDS: The hon. gentleman does not care. For the sake of political kudos he continues the dis­~onest advocacy he has been pursuing. He IS not concerned for the future of Queens­land and its people. All he is concerned about is a lot of tripe that is not worth 2d. The only member from the other side of the Chamber who made a thoughtful speech on the subject was the hon. member for Hamilton. Certainly, the hon. member for Murrumba made some thoughtful remarks, but even he could not entirely get away from politics. The hon. member for Hamilton, realising what the timber trade means to the future of Queensland, gave th<> Committee some good information, and I intend to hand on his remarks to my officers, and probably something will be done.

The hon. member first of all spoke of the state of the Southern markets. Really, he was rectifying the remarks of an hon. mem­ber on the same side of the Chamber who is not fair enough to point out what hap­pened in regard to the export of timber to other Stetes. He pointed out that it was a valuable asset to the people of this State to have the right to send Queensland timbers to the other States; but that the present position will not last. I have been dis­cussing with and pointing that out to my Director. of Forests for many months. To-day we are in a favourable position in the timber industry, but certainly it will collapse and we shall get back to the position in which it was when our predecessors were in power. Sales will fall back to what they

Hon. P. Pease.]

'i40 Supply. [ASSElVIBLY.] Supply.

were 1n tho~e days. Hon. members ask, "vYhat about this export trade-allowing timber to go to the other States?" The hon. memb<~r for Hamilton was good enough to point out that the Moore Government initiated that policy after he and others who kne•.1 something about the matter had given them advice that was for the benefit of Queensland. He is a man who understands the position. as does Mr. Duffy. That is his job. He saw the advantage of this export trade to Queensland. He devised a nwthorl of doing something for the former Secretary ·for Public Lands, but the c'-Premicr knows what happened. The Federal Government rlecicled that it was against the interests of the Commonwealth. The hon. member for Aubigny agreed as Premier to what was clone. He realised, as we do, that it was a good thing for the State, and that is all that counts. He initiated it and he left to me, as a legacy, the method of overcoming the difficulty aris­ing- from the Commonwealth aspect of it. I did not disturb it. We continued with it because it was worth while, as we continue anything worth while, irrespective of the political colour of the Government respon­~ible for it. We seek no political kudos but are concerned for the result to the State.

The hon. member for Hamilton is virtu­ally vttarking hon. members on his own side and in pointing out the true position has rendered a great service to this industry. Hon. members opposite, not knowing any­thing ahout the matter. spoke of just cut­ting a bit off a log and sending it away. The hon. member for Hamilton, knowing the facts, as much of this timber is shipped through h1s firm, pointed out that most of it is exported as sawn timber.

In the Cooktown area Mr. J. M. Johnston is developing a large area of timber country. If e is rendering a service to Queensland. He has a number of employees. and his effort is re,·toring to Cooktown some of its former glory.

Mr. MAHER: It hcs a long way to go yet.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLTC LANDS: It is progressing rapidly. and it is clue to the employees of Mr. Johnston. who is handling a forestrv concession in that a rea. What happened? Last year, through the Sub­Department of Forestry, we obtained from the Governnwnt of New South Wales a largo order for cedar for building railway coaches. Cedar is one of the best tim hers for this purpose. It is durable and lasting. I visited the sawmill in the middle of the scrub and '"w fine cedar logs being cut into long boards. This timber is shipped to the South through Cooktown. That is the sort of thing that should be encouraged. The timber is exported mostly as sawn timber. We give !'VPrv encouragement to those who ~re helping Queensland by bringing money mto the State.

Not one member of the Opposition, except the hon. member for Hamilton. said a word on the ply-wood industry. He was good enough to refer to its importance. This industry originated in Queensland and by figures I shall prove to the Committee that this branch of the timber industry draws fYioney from the other States to Queensland. It employs our men and is creating another national dividend. I was asked a little time ap;o t9 disturb this trade in the export of t1mber from Queensland. We went into the matter, and on the advice of the Director

[Hon. P. Pease.

of Forests-! will give hon. membe"s the exact figures later on-we reduced the amount we were giving to this trac!P. The. consequence is that not only have we •·ccluced it but we have reduced the export of timber also, and I m a v as well tell hon. members that I am a little concerned about it. I think· our policy will have its reactions.

The hon. member for Hamilton touched upon an idea that I have had for some time, the importation of logs. We must not be continually cutting down our trees to com­mand the market in Queensland and Aus­tralia. There must be a breaking point, <1nd when wnditions chang·e log timber will ilow into Australia from overseas as it did in years gone by. One had only to pick up the paper from time to time to see reports that no fewer than forty ships loaded with lumber arc on their way to Australia, including Queensland. That importation must have some effect upon our markets ),ere and our tirnbor. I a1n more concerned about trying to preserve the prHent output a,nd maintain our present work than most hon. members opposite think. Ore~on pine is comjng into the C'ommon­

wortlth in shiploads. For instance, every stick of timber used in the Mount Isa mines is Oregon pine, and shiploads of it are arriving at Townsville. That timber has heen cut into the sizes required by the company and not one bit of the work of cutting is done in Queensland. Mount Isa Mines Limited claims it to be the best timber for mine work. Of course, I should like to see the company using Queensland pine, but I cannot force it to use it. My department cannot say that it will be as good as the pine it is using. Anyone who knows any­thing about pine knows that Oregon is the best for mining purposes.

Whilst I was in Canada I saw ships loading Oregon pine for use by the Broken Hill Proprietary Limited. I remember being at a big timber sawmill over there and the Canadians. knowing that I came from Aus­tralia. were anxious to show me what they were vetting from Australia. They showed me cases of canned fruit from Australia. and I was pleased to know that they were using quantities of Australian dried and tinned fruits. Mv Director of Forests had a look at the timber in the cases those products were contained in. Ho said that they were hernlork cases. and the timber in them had come bark to' the place where it was cut. The Canadians send hemlock to New South Wales and Victoria. and it is returned as cash,, with our fruit inside them. I used that example at a meeting I addressed over there as an illustration of the reciprocity of trade. and it was a good example of what could be clone. They were buying our dried fruits, and the people in Australia were packing those goods in hemlock cases, the timber for which had come from that very spot.

As the hon. member for Hamilton pointed out, present conditions are very good. Every­one realises that there is unrest in Europe which has helped to bring about a f<1lse market, and he warned hon. members as I am now warning them that present conditions will not last for ever. I hope the war in Spain will end, but once it does and other con­ditions abate our timber market will suffer. Canada is supplying timber to the world <1nd as a result we have been able to get larger orders at better prices, and for the

Supply. [30 SEPTE~!BER.] Supply. 741

time bcjng we are not \Vorry1ng. I an1 pleased that the hon. member for Hamilton mentione l this matter. because possibly hon. members opposite will take notice of what l:e say~.

I am considering the future policy with regard to timber royaltiE's and I agree that so1nething n1ight be done. '0-lo have to take c:are we do not itnpoverish what we have. For every £1 from forestry not credited to com.olidated reYenue. the revenup of the State is affected to that extent. The ques­tion will be: how are we going to make up the balance?

At 2 p.m., The CHAIR"'AO< re,umed the chair.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:'\DS: 'fhe futuro foreotry policy in this State calls for the utmost consideration. It cannot be lightly bJ ushed aside as some hon. members oppo5ite would do. It is one of the most vital matters that the Government will have to face It cannot be laid down on hap­hazard lim's. That ie true of other places besides Queensland. ·when the Forestry Delegation visited Queensland from the other States they, too, expressed the opinion that a forestry policy was of vital concern to the whole of Australia. V\'herever [ went in Canada and the United States of America, I discoyered that the chief con­cern o! the people interested in forestry operations was the futur.o policy of their country, and I am very glad indeed that at the time of my trip they were devoting ('Onsidcrablc attention to a co1nprehcnslve forestry policy. Wherever I travelled in those countries I was impressed by the faet that e,-ery industry, every section of industry, and ev-ery undertaking worthwhile held its convention once ,a, year, and last year a very important forestry convention was held in the United States. I think it m a v be described as one of the most i m;''Ortant forestry conventions ever held in the world. It was held at Portland, United SLates of America, and I am glad that Mr. Grenning had .an opportunity of listening to probably the world's greatest experts on this problem. It is taken very seriously in that country, and forestry operations ore regarded as of the highest impe>rtance. 'l'here are forestry institutes, and there are chairs of forestrv at the universities. [r is regarded as one of the most popular chairs at snrh institutions. Dean Spring, of Syracuse Univ,ersity, probably one of the world'$ greatest experts on forestry attended the convention at Portland and supplied the meeting with very valuable infoTmation. The practice in that country is to select experts in the nrrious branches of the sub­ject, draw up the agenda paper accordingly, and have papers read by those experts on matters with which thev are intimatelv acquainted. Thus the convention gets th'e results of the best brains associated 'with forestry in all its ramifications.

In my opinion the control of forestry over there is s,:mewhat unwieldy, in that it comes under the jurisdiction of Federal, State, and municipal Governments, and is also controlled by the sawmills themselves. \Yhen I met a forest officer I naturally expected he would be a Government repre­sentative. but I inYariably found that the most competent officers were employed by sawmilling interests, and that they received tremendous salaries. Representatives of

both Federal and State Governments ir;krmed me that thev experienced con­siderable rlifficultv in retaining- the services of a o·ood fDt·c-t officer. because he was pagerli mught by th,, sawmilling interests and paid almost <WY salary that be demanded. In Queensland forestr:· has to be catered for bv the State Government alone. The Fed0ral Government here do nbxt to nothing for for0stry.

Mr. ~IAHETI: And von spend most of yom· revenue for oth. r ptn·poscs.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The po;nt that I am trying to drive home to the Committc<> is that for0stry problems are considered as of such irnportanco in ,.\merica that thev arc controlled bv more than on.; (;ovcrru11cnt. The subject~ is not tre,at0cl lightlc-·

In Queensland I haYo no assurance that the revenue fr.om forestrv operations will POt dN line next year. I hope that I shall be able to gPt the sam!! amount of revenue. lmt where we have thousands of feet of timber in this country thcv have millions of feet in other con;1trios: "Wherever I travelled in America I saw millions upon millions of feet of timber. I saw one saw­mill that turned out 1,000,000 feet d timber a dav for 350 days in the year, or a total of 350.000,000 fe0t in the year. It made me feel that Qcwensland was but a small unit in the world of forestrv problems. I saw millions, c.-en billions, "of feet of timber 0vervwhere. I travelled on a train for a whole dav and was never out of sight of pine tre~.3. In Loni~iana, where v,re get vellow l'ine, I saw millions. even billions, of young trees that had grown up by the p~o­cess of reuencration. When I went to VIC­toria, in ·Canada, I was told that it was uneconomic to reforest the country.

In Canada, particularly in Victoria, it is <>heapcr to allow r0forestation to be done naturallv than artiflciallv. The great bug­bear o( the lumber indt1strv in C:anada is fire", and thev have spec'ially appointed guards to take care ?f the fo~ests. Refore.sta­tion as we know 1t here 1s not practised there. Reforestation is done for them by nature. Yet Canada is concerned with the fLtture of the forestry industry.

I am verY pleased indeed that the trip we made thro;,gh Canada coincided with the annual com-ention of the industry. I pay a tribute to our Director of Forests. Mr. V. Grcnning, because when he made a speech at this convention he was commended on all side"' for his knowledge of forestry problems. In Mr. Grenning we have a man that we need not be ashamed of, and we can safely leave our forestry problems to him. :iYir. Grenning, as we know. was a warded a Rhodes scholarship and decided to take up the study of forestry. He tra veiled all over Europe and learned his job thoroughly. He now tells me that the recent trip was the coping stone to his stu,dies. The five months he was enabled to engage in forestry ruearch in Canada and the 'Gnited States of America was of tremendous advantage to him, and I am sure that the State will benefit thereby. I heard Dean String pay a tribute to Mr. Grenning. He said that his knowledge of forestry was equal to that of any of the forestry representatives at the convention, who possessed great forestry ability gained not only in America, but also overseas.

Hon. P. Pease.]

742 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

I want the Committee to remember the important fact that Canada and the United Statc·s of America are onlv a bout five and a-half days from Europe: I have often wondered whv Americam interested in fores­try di·d not come to Australia, but when I realise that America is onlv five and a-half days from Europe by bo'at, and less by airship, I understand wh;<- all their re<earch work is centred in those two countries. I stress that point because men dealing- with forestry problems in America look to Europe to increase their knowledge. Mr. J. Silcox, Chief Forester. ·Washington, D.C., one of the most able forestry experts in the world, paid a visit to Europe once a yeat in pur­suit of his study of forestry matters. When he returns to \V a.shington he passes his knowledge on to his foresters. :Mr. Gren­ning received most important beneFit by his contact with these foresters.

I am not going to he rushed in dealing with the forestry problems of the future. I intend to secure the co-ordination of those engaged in the industrv. as is done in the "Cnited States of AmPrica and Canada. As soon as possible I shall a rrangc a confer­ence with my officers and the representatives of the timber trade in Queensland. After all, the men engaged in the industrv are worthy of consideration. \Ye shall thrash out the whole of the nroblems of forestrv at that conference. Reflection will cans-;, hon. members to realise that almost all the forestry in this State is controlled bv the Government. \Ve have our >Ugar pool, butter pool, and a number of other pools in farm­ing indu.stries, but the Government do not control the raw material as thev do in the timber industrv. The nrodncts in those industries are controlled bv the man on the land. Most of the private stands of timber !n t~is State have been cut. and that remain­rng IS controlled by the Government. Govern­ments in the past have not allowed our forestry assets to be alienated as in America I found in Canada particularlv that vear~ ago the Government gave aw'av man'y of its forests with the land connected to iand­((rant railway companies. The Governments m Canada are now spending monev. not in reforestation, but in buying back fl:om those persons to whom _they had previously sold it for next to nothmg large stands of timber so as to be able to obtain some control of the timber industry in the future. Thank goodness, we have not that trouble in Oueens-la.nd! ~

If we can get complete accord with the timber ti·ade we can. with the advice of our officers, -do the best for the industry, which is the main thing. I have a sawmill Bill on the stocks, but before I bring it before this Chamber I want to know just how we stand in every respect. When con­sidering this Bill I shall have the benefit of the research work that has been carried on in the greatest lumber camps in the world. More than three-quarters of the workers in Canada are employed in the lumber industry. \Ve have a complete check­up of what our officers are doing, and I see that where we deal in hundreds of feet in Queensland they deal in billions in Canada. I hope to get somewhere with the industrv with the co-operation of those engaged in if.

The hon, member for Hamilton and several other hon. m em hers spoke of the destruction of timber on the banks of rivers and at the heads of many of our streams. That problem has had our attention.

[Hon. P. Pease.

Again. in America the sale~ organisation is a matter that has the attentwn of forestry departments both Federal and State. \Ye engaged in 'much research work. and have the benefit of the results of such work, in which experts have been engaged for a number of years.

The pollution of our streams is not a matter for the Sub-Department of Forestry, hut for the Department of Health and Home Affairs.

The hon. member for Hamilton also spoke about the future of pine trees and suggested that we should concentrate on the Louisiana yellow pine. Everybody knows there is pine growing at Beerburrum the seed of which originally came from Louisiana. I had the pleasure of seeing such tree' growing in their natural habitat, and I find that owing to our wonderful climate similar trees grow twicA or three times as fast in this State as they do in Louisiana. We shall carry out further experiments with those trees. \V e learned a good deal over there and as a result of our knowledge we hope to be able to increase the rapidity of growth of these trees in the future.

I compliment the hon. member fot lVIurrumba, who opened the debate, on part of his speech. I shall be pleased if the hon. member would have a talk with the Director of Forests on some of the matters ' he brought up. If he made an appointment with Mr. Grenning, I am sure that gentle­man would be pleased to meet him and give him all the information he can, and if there is anything in the suggestions he has to offAr ho may depend upon it that gentleman will act on them.

The hon. member also spoke about soft­wood plantations. The hon, member for Hamilton is not so much concerned about softwoods as he is about hardwoods_ That is a matter that I shall have to deal with in Yarious conferences.

The hon. member also spoke about the practice of paying revenue from ro:;"alties into consolidated revenue. One would imagine from his speech that all the money that is received from royalties goes into the coffers of the 'l're•asury, less what IS

used in harvesting the timber. Some of the vote under discussion has to be paid out of general revenne. If the hon. member looks up the Estimates we are now considering he will find there are eighteen additional officers in the Sub-Department of Forestry this year, which indicates the extent to which the activities of the department have extended. It is necessary to vote provision for eighteen more officers in the general office vote. From the Loan and Trust Funds and the amount paid from the harvesting and marketing fund we are employing thousands of men. All that mone>- is being paid out of various funds. A tremendous sum is being paid from the general fund of the State in connection with the sub­department, About half the amount that is received from royalties is expended by the Sub-Department of Forestry, apart from these expenses. I shall quote the exact figures later. About half the money that has, been received from royalties on timber in Queensland over the five years I have had the honour to control the department has been spent by the department before the Treasury gets anything at all, and then the Treasurer meets big cpmmitments, as I

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 743

shall show later on. The hon. member for 1\J:urrumba spoke about wood wool. l\lr. Grenning told me he was making CXjJori­

mont:; and very shortly he \Vas goinq; to arrangP to have a case of pinea,pples which, I understand, the growers will undertake to supply, packed in this wood wool. I am hoping to send a case overseas to the Chief of the Forestry Senice in \Vashington in order to ~ee ho'v our wood wool compares with the wood wool we are using at present.

A diseoverv that we made in America concerns the" production of turpentine and resin. I was a,,tounded to see some very young trees over there, particularly in Louieiana, each with a little cup attached to it, like the cup we attach to our rubber trees in the North, and I found that I was in the centre of the turpentine indusb·y. Tlwse trees are tapped at a young age.

An OPPOSITION ME~IBER : \Vha t age 9

The SECHETARY FOR P"CBLIC LA~DS: At eight or ten years. Mr. Grenning wont into the matter in detail and inYestigation revealed that it was a tremendous industry. He was astonished to learn that trees came into production at such a tender age. The production of turpentine and resin is a very valuable industry. The research we made will be of advantage to our inYe,tigations in Queensland, because we shall shortly be tapping these trees for turpentine.

The hon. member for Isis and the hon. member for Bundaberg referred to the Good­night scrub. \Vo need not worry about the expense of regeneration or reforestation in that area. because as the former Secretary for Public LaNds knows that scrub has a natural regeneration, and we have to spend very little on it in comparison with other ~tand:-:. ~ature has been Yery good to us there. We are providing a big supply of timber for the Bundaberg sawmills from that area. The Department of Public Lands colla horates with the Commissioner of Main Roa,ds a.s to roads in forest area,s. The hon. member for Isis showed some concern as to roads into this forestry area, but the depart­ment is going ahead and hoping to develo:J that area not only for the timber industry but also for the settlers.

The hon. member for Oxley mentioned the good work done bv this, sub-department but commented on expenditure from loan funds and forestrv revenue. I would remind hon. members th~t the former Secretary for Public Lands made some investigations as to how much reforestation was worth and whethf'r it was economic. ·when I took con­trol of the department I was told that the actual returns from rdorestation represented 1~ to 2 per cent. Is it sound busim·ss to spend money where the return is only from H to 2 per cent.? \Vould money be spent in agricultural projects when the return is only 1~ to 2 per cent.? These factors have been taken into consideration. With the prices of timber ruling to-day the return from reforestation will be from 3-:\ to 4 per cent .. but the question to be answered is: how long will tha,t last and shall we get back to a return of only 1~ to 2 per cent.? Is it sound business to put money into an investment returning that percentage when others arc available returning up to 6 per cent.?

The same hon. member referred to hard­wood on an estate possessed by the Brisbane City Council. That matter will be taken u;>

with the council, but the hon. member uncovered the nigger in the woodpile when he mentioned that approximately £1,000 for rates was owing on the land. The timber may not be .,-orth that sum.

A pet subject ·of the hon. member for Cunningham is soil ermion. The Sub-Depart­ment of Forestrv and the Lands Depart­ment will not permit the cutting out of timber in any district where it is likely to result in soil erosion. A few years ago I recoiv,,d a deputation asking that the hnd at the head of the Condamine be opened up. I ",ts told ho·w much more valuable that timber would be if removed and cut up than if allowed to 'tand where it was, but we did not allow this to be done.

The hon. member takes a very ha,rd view on the opening up of the Eungella )ands and considers that to be very bad busmr,ss. He is \Hong. The river position has been taken f'are of. People are not allowed to settle on the source of a river or do any­tlnng there if it will prove detrimental to those on the lands below them. That has all been ca,red for and before next session I shall have the pleasure of giving the hon. member a series of photographs showing exactly ,,~hat is going on.

Th0 hon. member also touched upon mistletoe, not in tho usual way of a man \vith a maid at Christmas time-he took it vcrv much more serious]:v. The depart­ment 'is doing all it can in this respect. Opossums and other animals that attack mistletoe are protected in forestry areas. Even during the open season they are n~t allowed to be taken from these areas. It IS made plain that if a,nyone is caught taking an opossum or an.v other animal fr.om forestry areas he will be severely dealt with.

The hon. member for Port Curtis had something to say as to the. regulations pro­viding for th<' clearing of trmber 10 fe:t on r a eh side of a fence. That matter wrll be investigated. He aleo referred to the charge to settlers of posts for fencing adjacent to forest resenes. I am quite agreeable that if it is proved that a charge shoul? rest on the Sub-Department of Forestry It should bear its share.

In the last few years a larger sum of monev has been expended for roads for acces~ purposes from forestry funds tha,n ever before.

Logging contracts have been investigated. This is a verv difficult matter, but we allowed certain "mills to do their own work and the astonishing part of it is-I am speak­ing particularly of the Maryborough are.a­that they immediately increased the pnces that we were paying to get the timber. They really pay their emplo,'ees more than thP contractor. The contract system has worked Yery satisfactorily and whenever a contractor has given satisfaction ho' is given preference, but as custodians of the Government funds we cannot merely subsidise obsolete machines. 1fachines as well as men must be up-to-date. We do not belieYe in doing anything that will bring down the price of labour. The contract system levels itself and as a rule we find that the letting of contracts is very satisfactory.

The hon. member for Port Curtis also spoke of planting trees on private holdings. Much of that has been done but we are up against one of the evils of freehold land.

Hon. P. Pease.]

744 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

We cannot compel the freeholder to pl~nt trees. \Ve provide seedlings, and we g1ve all the necessary information with regard to the planting and development of those trees. If a man asks for help in the planting of trees we have pleasure in providing him with plants. and we will even send an officer along to advise him as to the be:;t way of planting.

Mr. EDWARDS: That opportunity might be availed of more if it was widely known.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: 'We have sent out eirculars from time to time to th;, " Telegraph" and the "Courier­Mail" concerning this matter. If any person comes along to me who is interested in the matter I will sec that he gets all the trees and the information he wants.

The hon. memoer for l'landgate spoke about the depletion of our forests. and told us that some years ago it was said we should soon have no timber left in our forests. Vi-e heard that story years ago. As a matter of fact, it is rather hard for m to sell ,,iJky oak. He also spoke about hard woods. Of course, we know that one way of taking care of our future supply of pine is to have a good sub­stitute for pine. He pointed out that the Department of Public \Yorks and builders in the State were encouraging the use of hardwoods for flooring and lining of rooms, where previously such timber was not used.

The complaint by the Leader of the Opposi­tion was in regard to the handling of forestry revenuE'. He asked how much revenue had gone into the Treasury from the Sub-Department of Fore·,try. If there is one point more than another that I have been trying to convince this Committee requires attention it is that to the extent that revenue goes to the general revenue of the State from forestry it prevents us from asking the people for more money to carry on the services of the State. He said, " Oh well, that is your job; you can cut dow1~ certain services." Let me tell the hon. mem­ber that nearly 39 per cent. of the revenue of the State goes in paying interest on debts incurred by Governments of years ago. This Government have to face that position. It will be seen that we have not much chance of doing anything with regard to a reduction in taxation. To the extent that the Sub­Department of Forestry pays money into general revenue, the general taxpayer benefits.

The hon. member also spoke about the mistletoe. Everyone seems to have been interesting himself in mistletoe. I suppose it recalls younger days when the mistletoe meant something. Suppose we destroyed all the mistletoe, what would the young man and the maiden do? The Leader of the Opposition also spoke about ringbarking. and I was interested in what he sai·d. He was arguing that the Crown should take more control in areas where settlers were ringbarking close to streams. We define areas where ringbarking shall be done, but we can only do that where we have control of the land. Again the wretched freehold system comes in: we have no control ovpr the freeholder. He can tell us to go to " pot," and that he will ringbark where he wants to. That is the trouble we are faced with. We have absolute control over ring­barking on lands where the tenure is not freehold, but where it is freehold we can do nothing.

[Hon. P. Pease.

The hon. member also spoke about the preservation of our scenic jungles in the North. In this respect this Government have done more than anv other Government in the history of Queensland. Of course, the Leader of the Opposition ic blaming us for the misdeed·• of Governments in the past. He is like the parson preaching to the man going to church about the iniquity of those who stay away-the man he is prcachmg to has nothing to do with it. It is the man who stays away to whom the sermon applies. The hon. gentleman speaks about the iniquitv of not presening our scenic jungle when th1s work has been done. We are domg more than anv Government ever before.

An OPPOSITION ME~IBER: You have repeated that sixty-one times.

'J'he SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC T,ANDS: I have to repeat it because hon. members do not take notice of what I say. Every session thev get up and make the same speech'''• and naturally I can only reply to what they give me. There is a section of the people who never learn anything, and I am sadly afraid that that applies to hon. members of the Opposition. I asked the Leader of the Opposition if he did not give us credit for the condition forestrv funds are in now, as compared with their ~tate when the previous Government were in power, and he. sa1d "No." It pleases us to know that the timber trade at least gives us credit for having rehabilitated that industrv, and that is all that counts with us. vVe do· get credit from ~he people concerned. \V e know we ard domg something for the benefit of the natwn as a whole.

What is the actua.] position in connection with reforestation? Hon. members •cpposite have suggested that a special forestry trust fund should be created, but supposing that was done and every penny obtained from the sale of timber was paid into it, what would be the result? At the present time exp<mditure is incurred for roads, interest on loans. salaries, and developmental pur­poses. The,;e amount to a C·Onsiderable sum, but they are paid out of ordinary revenue. If a trust fund was set up these charges, running into hundreds of thou,ands of pounds a year, would have to be born.e by that fund, and what would he the posi­tion if forestry revenue declined to the fi~;"m·o of five years ag--o? Five years ago the gross revenue obtained by the prevwus Government from forestry operations was about £160,000, of which about £80,000 was spent in harvesting costs and the balance of £80.000-the actual· figure is £78,000-was paid into the Treasury. Suppose the sale of timber slumped, as it did in those davs. How much better off should we be with a trust account? Tha_t is the position.

Mr. EDWARDS: That is not the position. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS:

That is the position. If the trust fund had been created six years ago the annual n~t amount that would have been paid mto 1t would have been £78,000 or le<s, and if the revenue had been continued at the level of that day a similar sum would have been paid in every year since. It cuts both ways. In my opinion a trust fund would have been very unsatisfactory.

\Vhnt is the trouble with reforestation in Queensland? The trouble is that it was n'ot started early enough. Hon. members opposite cannot blame me for that any more

Supply. [30 SEPTE~1BER.] Supply. 745

than I can blame the hon. member for Aubigny, nr the hon. member for Cunning­ham. The whole trouble is that reforesta­tion was not begun early enough in this State, probably because it was not thought to be economic to invest money in reforesta­tion to earn a bout 1 per cent. The people realised that it would take fifty to sixt~ years for the trees to grow, and that it was a bad investment to spend money in that way and pay the interest charges over sixty years. Therefore, the result was that reforest,ation "as not started. It was started only recently, and then by the Labour Government. In other days Governments neglected their duty-that is the trouble with re fore· tation. If they had been able to foresee the difficult situation that exists to-day they might have done something, because they could have obtained any amount of cheap money for this purpose. As I have said, reforestation was begun recently, and by the Labour Goven~n;":nt. Each vear we have extended our achv>t>es. The r~forestation work carried out over the past five years establishes a record for Queensland.

\V e must also take into consideration the lumber trade in other parts of the world. At the present time many sawmills in Queensland are working at full capacity, and deputations have waited upon me and sawmilling interests have approached other hon. members urging that I should make more timber available for milling purposes. Will this activity continue? Can anybody sav that it will? I read in the paper only the other dav that Canada had entered into a contract ";ith Japan for the sale of largEo quantities not of sawn timber but of logs. It will require not one shipment but thousands of shipments of timber to com­plete that enormous contract. The Domininn c,f 1\ew Zealand has prohibited the ex~Jort of certain timber eminently suitable for butter boxes, and Queensland is now coming into the picture. Dr. Earle Page, as acting Prime Minister, rang me up in a rather distressed frame of mind one night and asked me if Queensland could possil1ly supply the dairying industry, not of Queensland, but of ~'~-ustralia with the whole of its require­ments in butter boxes. I immediately got in touch with my officers and communicated with him the following day to tell him what we could do. That is all now busi­ness, but how long is it going to conti.m:e? I sav this to the credit of our sawm1llmg busi1;esses, that they immediately r.ose to the occasion and said that they were pre­pared to supply all the timber required for these butter boxes. They are doing so. As a voung man in the Cairns district, l remember the neglect by past Governments in allowing· large quantities of silky o>;k and other vah<able timber to be burnt m the scrub. In those days the Government allowed large quantities of valuable timber to be virtually given away. Great cGr;>hines were allowed in the past to exploit the timber on the Atherton 'fableland at a very cheap rate. Thev harvested the timber, and then sold the. land for more than they paid for the land and the timber. Thev were able to operate over big areas to the exclusion of the small man. Those were the "good old days."

Everybody knows that millions of feet of silky oak were burnt when settlers were clearing the scrubs.

I am verv concerned about the export t.rade of our timber. I do not know whether it is going to last. My honest opinion is it will not last. An unusual demand for our timber exists because of certain circumstances throughout the world which will pr~bably last for a little time. When those circum­stances cease to exist our export trade will diminish. Canada and other nations possess vast supplies of soft woods, yet they are concerned a bout the future situation. If I were running the show in Canada I should not be a bit concerned. The Governments there are concerned because they do not control the raw material. The soft wood supplies are controlled by speculators who obtained them many years in respect of land­grant railways· under very favourable con­ditions. 'I'he Governments there are not concerned about reforestation, because nature does that work for them. Thev have billions of feet of timber reserves, and yet are con­cerned about the future. Thev are making everv post a winning post in the sale of that" timber. It does not matter if buyers from Japan, Spain, Germany, or elsewhere require timber, they get it. I was at one !Jig mill and saw seven ships loading timber. One shipment was for Australia, ono for Japan, one for England, one for China, and the rest for European nations. It is because their time is so fully occupie-d that they are not concerned about Australian trade, but if they chose to do so they could dump their timber here.

I was alarmed to read in a timber journal recently that forty ships were loading timber in Canada for Australia. That fact shows that we in Queensland can only rely on the timber consumption inside this State, and not outside it. Owing to the great activity existing to-day, due to the large number of workers' dwellings that are being erected. consequent on the making available of £200,000 in addition to the amount previ­ously voted, a great ·demand has arisen for timber. How long will that demand last? That is what I have to consider.

\Vhen considering the problem of reforesta­tion it must be conceded that neither I nor any Government can make up for the neglect of reforestation by past Governments. \Ve can only do what we have done in the last five years. and what the previous Govern­ment did in three years, and what was clone in six or eight years by other Governments previously.

I was interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Hamilton. He is not con­cNned so much with the reforestation of softwoods as hardwoods. I want to find out what is at the back of his head. I will ask the trade that question. He says that 1t will not pay to engage in reforestation of soft woods. In other words, those soft ·woods must come from overseas, and the Commonwealth collect a duty on it. We must not forget that to-day we have tariff protection ai!ainst those timbers. If we did not have a supply of softwoods in Aus­tralia the Commonwealth might admit soft woods from overseas so that the sawmills could be kept working. There travelled on the boat I went to America on one of the directors of the biggest sawmills in Sydney. His mi"'ion was to buy an increasing amount of log timber in Canada. fie complained about the duty that this timber had to pay before it cmtl.d enter Australia. If that position develops and is applied to Queens­land we should be compelled to import timber

Hon. P. Pease.]

746 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

from overseas. The Commonwealth Govern· rncnt would then come into the picture, as tho question of duty would have to be con­sidered. To-day the Commonwealth prO· tccts our timbers against im)Jorts from over· seas.

I want to point out the size of our cut of hoop and bunya pine. I am speaking of State forests onlY in this connection. Till a short time ago every sawmill of any no to in Queensland worked aho on private supplies of timber. C(>rtain timber mills had to re,ort to supplies on land taken up forty or fifty years ago. To-day most of that timber has been cut. The hoop and buns a pine cut in Queensland last year totalled 105,000,008 feet. That is a record. Just imagine what that mc:tns ! In America in one mill last year 1.000.000 feet of softwood was cut daily, or 350,000,000 feet a year, against our 105,000,000 fof't for all Queensland for the whole vear! That shows that we are not a factor in the world's supply of timber. All that we need concern ourselves about is the market in Queensland.

1\aturallv. it would be a calamrtv if all our timber' was cut out, and all the sawmills had to close clown and settlenwnt ceased: but there is ono compensating factor in QuPcns­land and it is this : where,·er we cut do\nl timber we find that most of the land can be used for dairying and other forms of farm­ing. That is not so in many other countrif''•, particularly Canada, where a good deal of the forest country is of a hilly nature, and I was told by a Government representative and the .Minister in charge that in not one instance was there an area of fore,t land there that would be of anv use if made avail­able for settlement. The countrv that is occupied by forests is unsuited for .. anvthing elsP.. As the hon. member for Hamilton pointed out, when our country is denuded of timber it comes into production as dairy­ing country. Take the settlements through­out Queensland. Take Eungclla, Palmerston, and Atherton. I remember that not a great number of years ago the A thcrton area was covered with timber. The timber has nearly all gone, but in its place we have a thriYing population engaged in dairying. I have been told that the clairv farmers in the Atherton district are clra.wing more money for their product than they ever drew before, because they have applied more scitmtific methods to their farming. The hon. member for the Tableland has figures that show the farmers in Atherton are drawing more money from their various products than they ever drew at anv other time. •

An 0PPOSITIO:-< :YIEMBER : They had a record maize crop there this year.

The SF£RETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I do not mean dairying only. Nobody can fairly say it was a bad thing for Athcrton to use the timber and go in for dairying. After all, there is a compensating factor, and that is what I must have regard to. In most other countries, particularly Canada, the Minister for Forests is also the :Winister for Mines. -"iaturally, tbe Minister for Forests is concerned when he cannot -develop his forests. After all, in Queensland if the land is denuded of trees it is suitable for other forms of production. Take Gympie, for example, which years ago was a thriving mining township. What has happened? 1 remember that the hon. member for Gympie remarked that Gympie was producing more

f!Ion. P. Pease.

money from agricultural pursuits than it produced from gold.

A GovERNMENT ME~IBER: And it still is.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: One would imagine that when the forests have gone we shall have nothing to take their place; but as the hon. member for Hamilton and I pointed out, where this denudation has taken place the land can be farmed by tho people. \'i'e have done it, and we are pre­paring to do it in the future.

The Director of Forests is concerned with what is happening. Take the case of Canungra. Hon. members may ha\·e noticed that permission has been given to move tbe Canungra mill from where it is because it. could not get any more timbcr-unle'-o we allowed it to take the timber on National Park, and I was not prepared to do that­and begin operations in the Cardwcll district, wherc it will be able to exploit 100,000,000 ft. of timber. The departure of that mill from Canungra is not going to mean the finish of Canungra. Years ago 1:vhen L1heys Limited sold the Canungra sawmill to tho Federal Gm·ernmcnt it was shut down for­some time but that was not the end of Canungra. ' I can visualise a bright future for Cauungra without these sawmills because of its wonderful advantages as a national park.

That is another question I was glad to be able to explore during my trip abroad. I am glad to know the Director of Forests is in charge of national parks. Some years ago, when I took over the Department of Public Lands, I endeavoured to get the Secretary for Public vVorks to take over nationa( parks, but fortunately it was not clone; and now national parks are controlled hy the Sub-Department of Fore.•try. I am quite satisfied that if Canungra is exploited by the Tourist Bureau in conjunction with the national parks section of the Sub-Depart­ment of Forestry, it will go ahead. In the vote we are no\~' considering provision has been made for two national park rangers instead of one. V\'e have one man in the ~orth and one in the South, and in view of the information we get from overseas, if the Sub-Department of Forestry exploits these­assets I believe we shall get as much money from the national parks as we should have got if they were forests. At any rate we are going to try out that scheme.

It is well to examine this expenditurf' on reforestation. For the purposes of com­parison I take the three vears of the Moore Government with the five years of the present Government and the figures are-

Amount Expended. £

Moorc Go.-ernment 114,916 Present Government 445,904

:Yloro than half of the total acreage of reforestation plantations in Queensland have been established in the term of the pre,ont Government. In 1932, 82,518 acres were treated for natural regeneration as against 157.537 acres treated under the policy of this. Government last year, and of this total 142.495 acres were treated for the first time· last year. Approximately two-thirds of the natural r<'u-eneration of the forests of Queens­land was done last year.

It is fair also to compare the revenue received from the foro,ts. Increase in

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 747

re,·enue must mean something. The revenue received was-

1930-31 1931-32

£ 92,950 78.155

And there is then an increase. This was not altogether due to this GoYernment, but to our policy of rehabilitating th<> timber industrv. Mv first act when I took charge of the' administration was to call together representatives of the timber industry in much the same wav as has the Secre­tan· for Agriculture ;;,nd Stock convened conferences of representatives of the sugar or butter industry to confer with him. In our own depitrtrncnt a commission was appointed. It was the first that Mr. Brigden had the honour to kad. and I give him great credit for the very thorough manner in which he did that work. The Timber Aclvisorv Com­mittee in collaboration with the ·timber inclustrv laid down the lines of action, and from u;en on there was an upward trend in the rehabilitation of that indtbtrv. The revenue figures are- ·

1932-33 1933-34 1934-65 1935-36 1936-37

::8 144.805 106.378 307.776 302.777 323,548

The gross sum r<ceived last vear an1ountccl to £660.457. and the amount 'of expenditure was the difference between £323.548 and £660.445.

Mr. Nnnro: In logging operations'

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: In every operation. That sum was spent by the Sub-Department of Forestry. I a.m quoting these figures because any person listening to hon. members opposite or reading their speeches would gather that the GoYern­ment re~eivecl only £323,548 in royalties and put it all into the Treasury, whereas the amount receind was £660,445, and the Sub­Department of Forestry put into the Treasury the sum of £323,548. That sub-department 'vas not stinted in any way. Expenditure on roads. bridges. and such items. work,; ne,·et· undertaken before, were constructed if th<> Diredor of Forests could show that theY were a reasonable charge against tha-t departn.tent. The road to Kirrama will cost £250,000, and thE' amount comes out of the forestry funds. The department will receive considerable sums in royalties from that timber. That is the policy adopted through­out.

There is a greater employment in the timber industry to-day than there ·was in 1931-32. IR not that something of advantage to the State in times such as the,e, and e. re not the Government to be commended for their policy?

Other than the hon. member for Hamilton no hon. member of the Opposition spoke on the wonderful plywood and veneering indu"­try which began in Queensland. Last year Queensland reached the record output of-

Ph·woocl V~ncers

Squan~ ft. 69,621,000

8,912.000

The quantity of plywood exported beyond the State amounted to 41,000,000 square feet, valned at £311.000. As a result of the enter­prise of our ·business people, baclwd by conces,ions given by the Government of the

clay, £311,000 of new money came into the State to help it to balance its Budget and carry on.

Something has boon said on the aiel given to forestry by the Commonwealth, and I place on record exactly what took place in case the people may have the idea that the Commonwealth is providing us with a large amount of money to spend. After the Prime Minister of Australia told all the Governments at a Loan Council meeting that he wanted to do something for the yeuth of Australia he asked the various Governments to put forward schemes and obtain some ot this money, mentioning millions of pounds. The Queensland Government gave him a forestry scheme, and, being reasonable, asked for a small sum, whereas other StatE··, asked for millions of pounds.

As in everything the Commonwealth Government talked a lot but did nothing. I ha ppenecl to listen to Canon Garland speaking over the air during the luncheon adjournment about immigration, and I heard him sav "At last the Commonwealth Governn1~nt have started to do something." Of course, we know the reason why-it is the eve of an election. 'What did they do about the'e grant schemes? I can ,how all the correspondence from the Prime Minister talking about millions; I can also show what thev did including what they did for for~strv. ' I went along with a scheme involving the expenditure of £500,000 by this Government, and this is how the Common­wealth Government helped us : the Prime Minister put in a condition that we must emplov a certain number of boyE. To the 31st March, 1936, we received £30,000 from the Commonwealth Government. Next year I happened to go to the meeting of the Loan Council, and I pleaded again for £30,000, and, after a great deal of talk, the Prime Minister said that he had decided this was not to be a recurring amount. I had taken a note of what was said at the time, and I fully thought he was going to find the mone,· over three vears. Instead of £30,000 he gave us £15,000, making £45,000 for the two years. This year we came along and he cut the amount down to £7,750, and said, "That's the last you are going to get." It will be seen that the grand total of Commonwealth money expended on forestry in three vears-and they never gave us any­thing before-was £52,500. In that time we have spent about ten times that amount. That was all the Commonwealth Govern­ment gave us, The Prime Minister, as I said before, insisted that wo should employ a certain number of boys, and we have been doing so.

I now want to devote mv attention to the licensing of sawmills. 'Again the hon. member for Hamilton is concerned because he made certain recommendations to his Government along the lines of licensing of sawmills. Mv Director of Forests told me it would be i:tc<;essary to do something, but we did not know how many sawmills there were, and where they were getting their timber supplies from. We had to initiate prosecutions for taking logs from national parks and we came to the conclusion that some sawmills at least had not been paying for their timber for many ~ears. The Government Statistician informed us that there were 317 sawmills and plywood mills in Queensland. That information was gained from various returns. We set about the

Hon. P. Pease.]

748 Supply. [ASSEl\lBLY.] Supply.

licensing of sawmills, and, as a result of the measure put through last session, it was made illegal for any person to operate as a sawmiller without being registered. By the 22nd September we had 636 sawmills registered in Queensland. That figure is just about double the number that sent in returns, and I emphasise the fact to show what is meant by close supervision. After all, everyone will agree, it is not right to steal timber and get away with it.

I want to emphasise another fact. The capacity of the registered plants is 750,000,000 superficial feet and their output last year was 260,000,000 superficial feet. The saw­mills in Queensland to-day are capable of milling 490,000,000 feet of timber every year. The milling capacity in Queensland to-day is 490,000,000 feet of timber. as against a total output last year of 260,000,000 feet, and this was a record vcar and a vear with an output I do not think can be m~intained. That is a serious problem to face.

The hon. member for Murrumba spoke about pri<ee cuts, and when I asked him if he would agree to a minimum price for timber he dodged the question, The trade is asking us to agree to that principle. \Ve think the trade should control the matter itself. If the sawmills in Queensland work to capacity they would more than double the output.

The hon. member for Hamilton is con­cerned about the export of timber, since through his advice the Government of the day took great care of the export of timber from Queensland. In 1932 62,282,668 super­ficial feet of log timber were exported from Queensland. In 1936-37, when we revised the subsidy. that export dropped to 21,000,000 feet. The subsidy given by !he Government on the export of logs outs1de Queensland was· 6s. a 100 superficial feet, but we reduced that to 3s. I propose to reduce it to nil if I am satisfied that it is in the best interests of Queensland, but 1 must take care not to destroy the export trade. I have already pointed out that in Cooktown we have a man exploiting a large area of timber country that has remained in a virgin state for very many years. HP. is doing good business and employing many men, but the bulk of his trade is outside the State.

Reforestation work constitutes a record in the history of Queensland. In 1936-37 we planted 2,030 acres: and the area of cypress pine and hardwood intensively treated was 53.000 acres. We cut 950 miles of fire-line and maintained 980 miles of fire-line. vYe have spent on this work £126,074. VV'e have made record reservations for forestry pur­poses. These are the figures up to 30th June last-

State Forests Timber Reserves National Parks

Acres. 2,795,196 3,384,196

416,911

6,596,303

That is the largest area of Crown land ever set apart for these reserves.

I should like to conclude my speech by makmg some comment about Queensland cabinet timbers. I have already said that in America there is a great demand for our walnut. While I was over there I could have sold the whole of the walnut output

[Hon. P. Pease.

of Queensland for the next five years, and probably the Treasurer would haye been very pleased if I had brought him back a chc<]uO for all those millions of feet of timber in advance. However, I had to consider Queensland's interests and the busi­IlCi'S had to be turned down. It was a fine offer. I had· to consider our own people, becanse we give prefercnc s in the supply of our timber, the first preference being to the sawmillcr in the district, the second to the sawmillors in Queen;.land, the third to the sawmillcrs in Australia, and then we mf'ct overseas demands. The people in America wanted me to depart from thest; preferenc :s. I told the gentleman who put the prop-osal to me that if he liked to buy ,omc of our silkv oak I might be able to do somc> business 'with him. I told him that we had some splendid silky oak that we were prepared to sell, and want0d a market for. \Ye have a surplus of silky oak. But this f!CDtl<'man did not want silky oak. he wanted walnut. He told me what a wonder­ful timber it was and what a big market t h0re was for it. Incidentally ''e are not allo, 'C>d to send our timber t') A.mcrica as ·::almrt. vVe have to dass it as oriental wood. That is the condition that the AnH?-ricans insist on, so that their O\Vll woods will net be belittled. Althorwh there is a big demftnd for walnut in that country, and we send the timber there, we must describe i1. as oriental wood.

I should like to place on record what our Agent-General in London has to say in his last annual report about Queensland cabinet timbers .. \Ve have the best in th'" \VOr!d. This is what the Agent-General had to say in his report at page 17-

" The Queensland capinet timbers, such as silky oak, woa.lnut, maple, and blackbean remain the choice of archi­tects and high-class furniture designers. by which to bring into effect the finest examples of their modern creatiYe art. It is no exaggeration to say that in nearlv every new building of importance in which wall panelling and decorative woodwork are prominent. Queensland cabinet woods are to be found . "

VV'hen I was in America I went into a large departmental store in Portland. The director said to me, " I want you to see our wonderful timber. All our furniture is made from this timber.' 1t was North Queens­l.and maple. He also told me that the timber came from a little place called North Quc•ensland, that he had an architect over in Australia who had built a big building­in Sydney and Melbourne and had urged him to use this timber for his interior decorations and fixtures. It was light coloured North Queensland maple. Then I told him who I was. and needless to sa v I did not. h tve to pay for my dinner ·that night .. When I told him that I came from Queens­land ho was very pleased, and said that: l1e was glad to be ai:Jle to get the timber, because everybody who came into his store from all parts of the world admitted that. it was "'bsolutely the finest timber they had. cYer seen.

Mr. Knnro: \Vas it maple?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS" It was our North Queensland maple. I also. told him that Queensland was not a little place-I was not going to let him get away with that. I told him, too, that we had

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.) Supply. 749

many thinJ;js in Queensland and Australia that they had not g-ot in America. I told him that our Town Hall was the greatest and most expensive Town Hall, in compari­son. of any that they had in America, and there was a great deal of our timber in that building. I t<Jld him about the Barrier Reef. and our wonderful crater lakes that I am satisfied this Government will exploit in the near future. They arc a great advan­tage to this State, because there is nothing in the v·orld to equal them.

\Vhen we had the honour of entertaining the Duke of Gloucester during his visit to this State and he was accommodated in this building, we gave displays of our valuable timbers. \Ye asked him. as we ask all our distinguished guests, if there was something that he "ould like to take awav with him in remembrance of his visit to tl{is State. He replied that he would like to take away some panels of wood for his study in London. Being a good Labour Gm·ernrnent aml desirous of having something in the palace that would remind him of us, we agreed. His Royal Highness selected silky-oak panels. If any hon. mE'rnber of the Opposition visits London he will see that the studv used by His Roval Highness is panelled with Queens­land silky oak.

l\1an:-· persons in Canada were very much impresse-d with the walking sticks I took over with me. and it will not be surprising if we obtain some good orders.

I want to conclude as I began. I desire to direct the attention of the Committee to the compliment paid to the Sub-Department of Forestry by the forestry experts who recently visited this State from all parts of Australia-that reforestation is carried out in Queensland better than anvwhere else in Australia. "

"Yfr. MULLER (Fas,,ifern) [3.7 p.m.J: First let me make some refer<>nce to the work of the Sub-Department of Forestry in relation to State school project club work. I am sure the MinistPr will not mind if I pay a compliment to the forestry officers concerned in that work. I am delighted at what has been done by these project clubs in educat­ing our children, wbo in a very few years will be charged with the responsibility of carrying on the work of reforestation. These bovs will be the men of to-morrow, and they are now accumulat~ng ,some very useful information in the valuable work of refores­tation. They, too, have an idea that the supplv of our timbers is likely to be exha1;stc-d, and that will enable them to give some thought to the problem in order to provide against the future scarcity.

The Minister also referred to the atten­tion given by his department to opening up >cenic and tourist resorts, particularly Lamington Park. I am delighted that the Minister is interested in Lamington Park. I hope he will be instrumental in inducing the Government to build access roads to this national park in order that its scenic beauties can be exploited.

I recently visited North Queensland. It would be tactless on my part to sugge,t that the scenic beauties of Larnington Park corn­pared with those of North Queensland, but I make bold to say that they do not lag far behind. It has this advantage: it is within reasonable access of Brisbane, and it can be reached at no great cost. Very few people are a ware of the accessibility of this won-

derful mountain scenery. I hope the Minis­t<>r will pursue his investigations, and that before long an access road to Lamington Park will be available. I am not con­cerned~ as the representative of the district, a bout the route to be adopted, for I am sure careful consideration will be given to that aspect of the matter. I am concerned only with the opening to the public and the tourist of the beautiful scenery that is to be found there.

I was rather amused at the r<>rnark of the Minicter that it was not the intention of the Government to make available to the cawrnilling industry any further supplies of timber in the Lamington Park reserve.· All the timber, with the exception of some that is very difficult of access, h.as been cut and remoyed. The greater part of this reserve is only suited for tourist purposes. \Vith the exception of small areas that could be cut up into several selections, it is very rough and rugged.

I was very amused also to h<>ar the Minis­ter's reference to my visit to North Queens­land. I have no regrets for the statements I made when speaking to the amendment moved on the Address in Reply. I was mterestecl in the Minister's statement that I was only in North Queensland for two 01·

three days. " Hansard " reports him as remarking that I arrived at Cairns one da v and left again the same afternoon. I say· that statement is not true.

The SECRETARY FOR PPBLIC LANDS : I said you could not see the effects of land settle­ment in North Queensland during your short stay.

Mr. :\fULLER: In case the Sccretarv for Public Lands may make any more mistakes I tell him I was in Cairns nine days and spent another few davs on the Tableland There were other handsome men in Cairn~ during my stay up there and the private detective wh~ "as watching my movements must have mistaken someone else for me. . My trip to the Tableland was pretty well advertised and for some unknown reason it was thought that I was a member of the Government party. I discovered after moving­around that it is only a very rare occasion that a member of the Government has visited the far North, particularly the Atherton Tableland. (Government dissent.) Wherever I went I had a party of settlers waiting to interview me, and for some reason unknown to me they thought I was a member of the Government. They were ready to meet me wherever I went.

'The PREMIER: Apparently the hon. mem­ber has been reading fairy tales.

Mr. MULLER: I have not been reading­any tales at all. I want to give an explana­tion of mv movements while I was in North Quecnslan'd, seeing that the matter was brought up by the Minister.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. member must deal with the vote before the Committee.

Mr. MULLER: The general complaint was about the system under which the land was made available.

The CHAIRMAN: Order ! The Com­mittee is not dealing with land settlement, but forc;try.

Mr. MULLER: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Hanson. I was endeavouring to connect my

Mr. Muller'.]

7.50 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

remarks with the work of the Sub-Depart­ment of Forestry. One deputation waited o•1 me about the policy of this Government of selling timber off the land before it was made a Yailable for selcction. I had a com­plaint in this connection a few days ago. I think it is a bad policy for the Sub-Depart· rnent of Forestrv to remove the whole of the timber off the land before making it available for selection. I was interested in th.e remarks of the Minister in this regard. He referred to the fact that if that policy were not adopted there would be a danger of larg·e landholders selecting this land, taking the timber off, making large profits out of it. and letting the land go. Perhaps that iF true up to a point. In the past much of the timber was ruthlessly clestroved. I ask the :Minister what the Labour Gov-ern­ments did from 1914 to 1929. the period when much of the timber in Korth Queens­land \Vas destroyed. Some years back the settlers thought the timber was of no great value. I met a number of mon who told me they burnt timber in those days that wonld be Yerv \'aluable to-dav. For manv yPars pi11e ~was destroyed ~ in Souther~ Queensland because the settlers did not know tho nt!ue of it. What instruction did the people recr~ive fron1 the GoYernmC>nt twentv years ago on the value of these timbers? ·

I n1et a man in Cairns a fevv \Yeeks e.go "n cl he told me he went north with three or four sons and a few teams about twentv years ago. I said to him, " I suppose you have made a Jot of mane\''" He said, "Xo, all I got out of it was a lot of hard work." I spoke to men who ha\'e been through the mill, and they have told me thov would not take that land on if vou gave it to them, because the cost of clearing the land would be greater than its value. Mv attention was drawn to the number of settlers who had gone on to these lands after the timber had been taken off. These men would have been materially assisted if some of the timber had been left on the property, because it would have ~2en possible for thorn to live as they went along. I suggest to tho :\Iinister that in opening up those scrub lands in the futurf', at any rate, it would be advisable to leave enough timber on them to enable the settlers to carrv on when they start. '

I am particularly interested in the remarks of the hon. gentleman regarding the Palmer­ston area. I noticed that the roads con­~tructed there have, in a great many mstan~es, been worn out by the haulage of timber over them and the settler who gets the land has to pay for the roads.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LANDS : No, he has not.

Mr. MULLER : To a very large extent. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : To no

extent at all. The road is provided entirely apart from the land settlement.

Mr. MULLER: Some charge for that road has to be borne by the ratepayers in that area. A worn-out road is very little better than no road at all.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LANDS : 1 don't know where you have been.

Mr. :\fULLER : It would be pretty hard for the hon. gentleman to find out. If he wants to find out where I have been he will have to employ a better detective than he did last time. He missed me for about ten days. He would have to be a great

[Mr. 1¥1 uller.

deal more accurate than he was last time to give the hon. gentleman all the informa­tion he desires.

Mr. T. L. WILLIAMS interjected. Mr. MULLER: The, h'(ln. member! is

welcome to ask them if he has done as much for the Butter Board as I have done for nothing.

In regard to road construction by the Sub-Department of Forestry I am aware of another part of Queensland that would be opened up if the people were given a road. The roads are made to enable the timber to be hauled to the railway line, and after the settler goes on to the land he has great difficulty owing to their condition. I desire to be fair. Any criticism I offer is not offered with the desire to destroy the value of the work done by the Government but to see that their methods are improved. I know that the hon. gentleman originally knew nothing at all about land settlement or reforestation, and since assuming control of this department has set himself to study these subjects with the result that he has now become a theorist. But we have to addres ,, ourselves to the practical side of the subject and discover what is best to encourage people to go on the land. Dur­ing my visit to Xorth Queensland, it may please the Minister to know, I was given information willingly \Vherever I went.

:\ir. POWER: They thought you were a member of the Government.

Mr. :M'CLLER: They did. The Minister referred to the prosperity of the Atherfon Tableland, and I am not going to say he is incorrect. There are record crops growing there at the present time.

The CHAIRYIAN: Order. The hon. member has wandered away from the vote.

Mr. MlJLLER: I was replying to the Minister.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. member is not entitled to reply to the Minister on that point except in passing. He must not make it a basic part of his speech.

Mr. MULLER: The three years of the Moore Government were not the only period in which timber was destroyed. I have the greatest regard for the work of the Sub­Department of Forestry in the preservation of our timber areas.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I didn't say in the Moore Government's time.

Mr. MULLER: The hon. gentleman made reference to the Moore Government and the control of timber.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAl\DS : But not in the sense of destruction.

Mr. MULLER: The Governments of the past.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS : This is long before that, sixty years before that.

Mr. MULLER: Sixty years back timber was of no value and it is scarcely necessary for anybody to criticise what occurred sixty years ago. At that time we did not know the value of timber. Lands were thrown open .and the settlers cut down the timber without any regard to its value. I am con­cerned as to the attitude of the department in the replacement of timber. Much of the Northern country, which has grown pine and other valuable softwoods, might still be used

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 751

for that purpose. A great deal of it would be used to better advantage in growing timber than in dairying. The Minister has said that after the timber has been taken off the land it is still valuable for agri· culture. I believe it would be possible for the Minister to investigate the possi· bilities of spending money on that country for the purpose of growing timber.

:Mr. GODFREY MORGAN (!Julby) [3.24 p.m.]: I was under the impression that the most important man in Cabinet was the Premier, but evidently the Secretary for Public Lands has taken upon himself the honour of being the champion Secretary for Public Lands that Queensland has ever had. Of course, we all have different views.

I am pleased to say that land settlement has gone ahead by leaps and bound. but, unfortunately, things are not good with some sntle1·s in some parts of the State. Con­solidated revenue has been boosted up to the extent of £300,000 last year from trust funds and £80,000 \\as borrowed from loan funds to do work that should haye been done from revenue. It is interesting to find that certain :Y1inisters have different ideas. One Minister the other dav said that it was quite right for a certain. semi-Government board to accumulate monev from revenue and use that money for the building of addition· and extra accommodation in a particular work. Kow, we are told bv the Minister in charge of the vote before the Committee that in reforestation that is not the right thing to do.

The SECRE1'ARY FOR P<:BLIC LA:s-DS : I never said anything about that.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAX: I said another Minister said it. I said that the hon gentle­man did not think it was right.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS: You do not know what I think.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAJ\': I never said anything about the policy of reforestation. I know \Yhat the Minister's policy is, because we can see what has been happening. He has a trust fund--

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I have no trust fund.

Mr. GODFREY M ORGAN: He did until it was taken from him recently. There used to be a trust fund, and whether there is a trust fund or not now I know that there are receipts from the sale of timber and the Minister has transferred £300,000 to consoli­dated revenue.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I h·ans­fer what is left at the end of the year.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: In order to carry out reforestation work the Minister is borrowing a certain amount of loan money. I think it was £80,000 for last year, and he proposes to borrow a similar amount or a little more for the current year. Instead of using loan funds the Minister should carry out all his reforestation work from revenue. from the money he obtains from the sale of timber, and if there is any surpluf'! at the end of the year perhaps it would not be wrong to put that into consolidated reyenue.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBI.IC .LANDS : You could argue the same about the Railway Department. That department has a loan account.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: It borrows money to do new work.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:-!DS : This is all new work.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: No, it is not. The hon. gentleman is replacing timber taken off particular land. If the Railway Depart­ment borrowed money to replace worn-out trucks that would be wrong. vVorn-out trucks should be replaced from revenue. If that department borrowed money to replace worn-out rolling stock it would be wrong. \Vhat have the Government done with regard to the forests? They take money from th0 sale of timber and place it to the credit of consolidated revenue, "nd borrow money to replace that timber.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS: Timber is not sold from the forests. It is sold else­where. All these forests are new portions.

Mr. GODFREY MORG'AN: In some of the places where reforestation is taking place timber was sold.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : Years ago, and your, Government sold some.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: It does not matter. Some Government, whether his Government, or my Government, sold timber, and the monev received was need for pur­poses other than refor0station. I cl aim that the m one,. should be used first of all for reforestation.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAXDS : Some of the money was used to make paymenh under the rail\\ay superannuation scheme.

Mr. GODFREY MORGA="!: It may or may not have been. I suppc"e some of tLe nwncy was used to pay the salaries of public servants.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA~DS : Yes.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: Then the Government are selling an asset of the State to pay the salaries of the public servants and are not replacing it out of revenue. They prefer to borrow and thus increase the national debt. The Minister has already referred to the amount of moneY that is sent out of the State annually ·to meet interest on loans contracted over the past sixty years or more. Those loans will remain, but if loan money is spent in reforeotation work our commitments will grow year by yeur. My point is that some of the proceeds from the sale of timber should be med for reforestation and the balance only paid into consolidated revenue.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Why did you not do that when you were in government?

Mr. GODFREY MORGA="!: I was not in charge of the department. It is g-ood busi­ne>;, practice to carry out improvements with revenue, but it is certainly wrong to mort­gage an asset to replace a part that is taken away when there is revenue for the purpose. If I, as a grazier, wanted to carry out certain improvements I would do them out of revenue if the revenue was available. I would borrow only if I had no other means of doing them.

Mr. KIKG: You cannot compare an indivi­dual with the State.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: You can. Business methods should be obsened by individuals, lo·cal authorities, State Govern­ments and Federal Governments. There is only one proper way to conduct a business and that is the right way-on business lines.

Mr. Mm·gctn.]

752 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

There is only one way for an individual, a local authority, a State Government or a Federal Government to do business and that is on proper business lines that are profltable to the people concerned. The sensible busi­ness man \Yill carry out his improvements from revenue and will not mortgage his property if revenue is available. He can carry out improvements with revenue and, as his business extends, carry out further improvements. If he does that he is moro successful and is a happier man than if he has a debt hanging over his head. That system should be adopted in regard to reforestation in this State.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : Then I may not be able to pay the allowances under the railwa:v superannuation scheme out of general revenue.

:\Ir. GODFRRY MORGAN: vVe differ as to whether the railway superannuation scheme should have been abolished. How­ever, 've are not discussing that now.

'fhe SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I am.

:'vir. GODFREY MORGAN: The hon. gentleman is not in order in doing so, and you, :\Ir. Hamon, would not allow me to discuss it. I ma.1 have an opportunity to Jo so when the Railwav Estimates are being considered. •

The 1\Ioore Government granted a r0bate of 6s. a 100 superficial feet on all sawn timber sold out,ide Queensland with the object of Rtimulating timber production in the State, but the present Goyernment haYe seen fit to reduce it to 3s. The Minister said that h0 might decide in the future to do away with even that.

The SECREl'ARY FOR PUBLIC LANDH: I did not say that.

Mr. GODFREY MORGA~: I understood the hon. gentleman to say that.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt.:BLIC LANDS : The matter is under consideration.

Mr. GODFREY M ORGAN: The Gowrn­ment arc considering whether it should not he done away with altogether. The Minister may be able to say whether my statem"nt is true or not, but I understand that at tl-te present time the sawmillers are cutting ihe sap off the log-s and exporting them to the Southern States as square logs.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: That means th<tt they arc flitching them.

1\fr. GODFREY MORGAN: Yes, and they are selling those logs in New South vV ales and tlw other States. Now, it is the practice to send the timber away as square logs instead of round logs. If they were exported as round logs the millers would not be entitled to the rebate of 3s., but beca.use they are sent a way as square logs they <1re entitled to it. The result is that the timber is exported as square logs and milled into boards in the other States. That was never intended. The rebate in royalty of 6s. given bv the Moore Government and reduced to 3s. bv tho present Government, only applied to sawn timber exported to the Southern States. In my opinion a flitch is still a log, for before it is of any value it must be milled. Therefore, that 3s. rebate is really wasted.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Do you think it, should be discontinued?

Mr. GODFREY M ORGAN: If that is \That is happening. If the log is cut into

[Mr. 111organ.

sawn timber the rebate should apply, but if it is consigned to the Southern States as a. square log or a flitch, it should be dis­continued, because that is only evading, not only the intention of the previous Govern­ment but also the intention of the present Gove~nment. Exporting timber in flitches does not give work to sawmillers. Flitching is a very quick process, and little labour is required in squaring the log. The Minister should make inquiries as to whether my statement is correct or otherwise. I am told that these flitches can go to a sawmill in New South \Vales, be cut into boards, and returned to Queensland to compete success­fully against locally sawn timber.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS: I do not think the 3s. rebate will cover that timber.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: The Minister should make inquiries to ascertain the truth or otherwise of that statement. He must agree that timber carrying the rebate of 3s., if exported from this State in the flitch, is not in accord with the desire the Govern­ment had when conceding this rebate-to provide work for employees in sawmills.

I suggest that the Minister should consult with the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock with a view to proclaiming forest and timber reserves as bird sanctuaries. rrhere are a large number of timber reserves in my elec­torate. They carry hardwoods principally, but a certain amount of cypress pine is growing on them. This is the only soft­wood in my electorate. and supplies are gradually dwindling. A number of fine forests contain hardwoocls such as spotted gum and ironbark, whid1 are very useful for railway purposes.

The SECRETARY FOR PTTBLIC LANDS : Most of the forest reserves have been gazetted as sanctuaries for birds. Every forest ranger has been appointed an officer under the Act.

Mr. GODFREY :MORGAN: Men and bovs enter State forests to shoot birds. I will not allow any person to shoot on my pro­perty. I would not allow my sons, as boys, to shoot a11y birds except the crow and eagle hawk. There is no one on State forests to prevent men a.nd boy',, from shoot­ing the birds there. There is another grave danger, and that is from bush fires, Very often, especially in hot weather, fires can start from powder or a lighted wad, yet we wonder how bush fires are caused ! If our timber and forest reserves are proclaimed bird sanctuaries, shooting will be prohibited, the risk from' bush fires will be considerably lessened, and bird life will increa.w. This ·will help the man on the land considerably in the extermination of the grasshopper and other pests from which they, unfortunately, suffer.

Item (Forestry) agreed to.

SURVEY OFFICE. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS

(Hon. P. Pease, Herbert) [3.42 p.m.]: I move-

" That £65,374 be granted for ' Survey Office.' "

Item agreed to.

IRRIGATION AND WATER ScPPLY.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, H erbert) : I move-

" That £34,500 be granted for ' Irriga· tion and \Vater Supply.'"

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 753

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN (Dalby) [3.43 p.m.]: I regard \his as a very important matter, but unfortunately we have not done enough in this rega1d. We have t.alked year after year in this Chamber of the necessity for water conservation and irrigation, but thE' efforts made for that purpose have been wholly incommensura\Al with the importance of the matter. Judging by the speeches of hon. members on both sides of the Committee we all recognise that some­thing more should be do·ne. \Ve ought to bo t-tpending 1nillions on water conservatiOn. Many of our riYcr; are suitable for locking, but instr ad of conserving the water we allow it to run to the Southern States~ I refer particularly to the south-western rivers~ where it is stored and used for irrigation purposes. ·what would be wrong with the GoYernn1ent's earmarking a loan of say, £1.000,000, for this purpose.

The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC LANDS : We could not get it.

;\ll". GODFREY MORGAN: You couldn't get it?

The SECRETARY FOR 'P'CBLIC LANDS: The Loan Council would not approve of it; we a re limited.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: The Goyern­ment had no difficulty in getting money to construct the Kangaroo Point bridge.

The SECRETARY FOR P-cBI.IC LANDS : That was three years ago; you could not get it to-day.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: The Govern­ment had no difficulty in getting money to go_ on with the Mackay harbour oon­s.tructlon.

The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIO LANDS : That \Vas sorne years ago.

Mr. GODFREY MOB.GAN: The Govern­mpnt had no difficulty in getting money to go on with the Stanley River water­conservation scheme

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS: That is one of the best projects we started.

~Ir. GODFREY M ORGAN: It may be, but it is not g·oing to produce wealth to the same extent as the conservation of water for rural industries.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS : It is one of the biggest schemes embarked on m the history of Queensland.

:!Ylr. GODFREY MORGA~: If we locked our rivers that are suitable for that purpose we should provide more work than any other enterprise, because practica.l!y 100 per cent. of the money spent would be in wages. \Ye should not have to send out of the State for materials. as we have to do for the Kangaroo Point bridge. Weirs are constructed principally of concrete, and we have sand and gravel on the river bed that would only cost the price of cartage, and the cement that would have to be }}ought is manufactured in Queensland; therefore, almost 100 per cent. of the money spent on work of this nature would be paid in wages.

Mr. JESSON: Vi'hat rivers do you suggest we should lock?

Mr. GODFREY MORGA~: There are quite a number in my district.

Mr. JESSON : I thought you were working the parish pump.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: There are quite a number in my district, and one of the principal rivers in Queensland, the Gcndamine, runs through that area. The Moonie is another river that could be locked, and there are several others where the adjacent land is suita.ble for irrigation. The Government could use some of the money from the Unemployment Relief Fund.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: We can­r•ot divert that money; it would have to be new money.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: I do not know why the Government cannot.

The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC LANDS : I do. Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: They can

divert it for other works. The Government have men working round Brisbane cleaning up grounds.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: That is the Brisbane City Council.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: No. The Government are spending much money in cleaning up church and sporting grounds. The Unemployment Relief Fund moneys are being used for this purpose, and could be much more profitably use·d in the way I have indicated. I should be pleased if the Govern­ment could see their way to set aside £1,000,000 to be expended in the current year on irrigation and water conservation on our rivers and streams. The construction of weirs would provide employment for a great number of men. and on completion the settlers along the rivers and creeks could put in irrigation plants. This morning I had the opportunity of inspecting the Lockyer Creek. It is a very good ili:1stration of what I moan. The Lockyer is only a small stream and without very much water in it. There are dozens of farmers adjoining that creek who make nse of pumping plants for the purpose of spraying their crops. 'I'he plots irrigate·d are the only green patches in the countryside. One can see good crops of potatoes, maize. and lucerne under the present dry conditions. I have never seen the remainder of the country in a worse condition for the past thirty years. I am not in favour of la.rge irrigation schemes, such as have been inaugurated in the Southern States. These cost a vast amount of money. The Government should embark upon a scheme of providing suitable locks and weirs and allow the settlers to have the use of water at a small charge to meet the interest on the capital expended. The farmer who took no water would not be charged, and the Government need not su_pply or finance the pumping or spraying plants required. No better insurance could be provided against loss of stock from starva­tion owing to want of fodder. The cost of fodder would be kept down to the minimum.

Mr. JESSOx: Have you an irrigation plant on your plaee?

Mr. GODFREY MORG.'I.~: I have had a small irrigation plant for the last twenty-five or twenty-six years. A neighbour of mine locked the Condamine River at his own expense, knowing that he could not get aid from the Government. The hon. member for Port Cm·tis knows the locality well. At the cost of a good deal of money a weir 4 feet high was constructed across the Conda­mine. The Sub-Department of Irrigation and Water Supply does not allow a wall higher than that to be built. Two experts were brought from Mildura to supervise the work,

Mr. Morgan.~

754 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

and the water is held back for a distance of 8 miles. This demonstrates that the fall in the river is not very great. This man now has enough water for his own purposes. All settlers cannot afford to erect a weir. I have not the information as to the cost of this one. The neighbours, including my son, helped in this work, although they were to obtain no benefit from the irrigation system. They gave their labour free of cost in their willingness to help. I should like the hon. gentleman to have a look at this work for himself. It will demonstrate what can be done. Had the weir been made higher and stronger the water would have bc-~n held back a grE>ater distance. This weir has already withstood one flood. That river could be locked every 10 miles right down from \V arwick to the border of ~ ew South \Vales, where the Condaminc runs into the Darling. 'l'here are two or three different names for it before it goes out of Queens­land. If we constructed weirs of that descrip­tion we should not suffer from a. shortage of fodder. 'I'his man's intention is to bale lucerne. He will cut it and store it, and if he has more than he requires he will sell it. We could all do that, because there is plenty of land alo~g the banks suitable for tha.t purpose. When a drought came we should not have to send away to the other States for fodder and pay exorbitant prices as we have to pay to-day. The people along the banks of the Condamine would be able to keep their stock alive. The Condamine River could be locked at suitable places where there is a. gravel formation. This man I have been speaking about picked on a place where there was a rock formation right across the river. We could pick out suitable places for these weirs, and I do not think the cost of a weir should run into anything more than £1,500. For argu­ment's sake, lot us take it at £2.000. Sup­posing we put in ten or fifteen weirs on the Condamine as an experiment. The actual cost for those weirs would not be such a very great sum of money, and it would be a small amount when one takes into con­sideration the great benefit likely to be derived from the scheme,

Mr. T. L. WILLIAMS: Did he take lha necessary precautions to have the water tested?

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: Yec. All such factors were dealt with through the Sub­Department of Irrigation and \V a.ter Supply. Of course, there may be some difficulty aft.er th~ land has been flooded. five or six times, as there may be some sedrment, but. gener­ally speaking, the CondaRine water is good. I know I have ~lrunk plenty of it, and it seems to be all rrght.

Mr. T. L. WILLLDIS: What about silting up behind the weirs?

.Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: Yes, that might take place to some extent. In the construction of weirs flood gates could be introduced, and the silt would congregate on one side, and when a flood occurred the rush of water would wash the silt away. I know they have floo-d gates in the Mm-rav and other rivers. This man's money was limited, but it is possible that weirs could be constructed with flood gates that could be opened in times of flood and so obviate silting.

I make the suggestion realising the import­ance of water conservation and recognising that we have spent almost no money in that way in Queensland. In Victoria they

[Mr. Morgan.

have spent millions of pounds in the con­servation of water, and they send >t for miles along channels-30C and 400 miles into the drv areas of the State. The water runs along these channels into dams, and in that way they are able to water the dry areas of Victoria.. There is no necessity for us to institute that svstcm in Queensland, became we onlv neC.d to lock our rivers and creeks, and we shall have plenty of water available for the growing of the fodder that is so necos,ary to save stock in drought.

At 3.59 p.m., Mr. KING (Jim·ee), one of the panel of

Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Chairman in the chair.

:Mr. GODFREY MORGA::-i": Another matter I desire to bring to the attention of the Minister is the regulation that state; that a man who puts down a sub-artesian bore has to keep a record of the strata he goes through. Borers have told me that this is impossible. Scores of bores have been put down in my district in the last two :years. :\Ion use a rod which goes up and' down and when they get down a bit they find it impos­sible to tell the strata passed through. When the pump is lowered the contents are lifted. ont in the form of mud and so all the strata are mixed together. How is it possible for these men to furnish information setting out tho various strata through which the tool passes? That information can be obtained only bv the use of a rotary drill taking out a core, but rotary drills are not used in putting down sub-artesian bores. Therefore, the department is asking for information that it is impossible to obtain. It was explained to me that a bore might go down for two feet before the pump is used, but as it is necessary to use water to clean it out the soil from the different strata is mixed together in the silt.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA~DS : If they do not know they do not make a return.

Mr. GODFREY MORGA:0i: The drillers. are under the impression that if they do not make a return they are liable to be fined. The department should know as well as I know now, after my conversation with these experienced drillers, that it is impossible to supply this information. Therefore, why ask for it?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: What is happening?

Mr. GODFREY MORGAK: I think they are ignoring the request. The drillers have asked me what they sLvuld do and I have advised them to write to the department setting out the difficulties and explaining that they cannot supply the information. The regulation should be withdrawn so that the· men may know that if the information• is not supplied they will not be subject to a penalty. I submit the matter for the con­sideration of the Minister and hope that he will consult with his officers on the subject. I am sure that thev will eventually come to the same opinion that I did after discussing the matter with these borers of many years' experience.

Mr. CONROY (Jlaranoa) [4.3 p.m.]: I think that all hon. members are seized of the importance of irrigation. I understood the hon. member for Dalby to say that we could not hope to achieve a great measure of success by undertaking irrigation on a large scale and I agree with him, but l

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.) Supply. 755

cannot join with him in his suggestion that we should spend £1,000,000 for the purpose of irrigation. I am more modest than the hon. member; I should be very pleased indeed if even £100,000 was spent for this purpose. I realise that it is not wise to proceed with a lar!!e undertaking, but I am se,tisfied that from small schemes much benefit will accrue to the man on the land, who will be given a splendid opportunity of saving his stock. There are better pros­pects of obtaining a comparatively small sum fori this work. I should like to impress upon the :'Y1inister that he should not consider the expenditure of very large sums of money upon these undertakings but that he should concentrate upon small schemes that will provide relief for distressed farmers.

Mr. GODFREY MoRGAX: I did not suggest that £1.000,000 should be spent on one f'chernc.

:\fr. CONROY: I am not .,aying thJJ the hon. member said that, but I C:id understand him to say that we should spend £1,000,000 on a scheme of irrigation.

l\fr. GoDFREY ::\10RGAN: On a number of small schemes.

Mr. CO"'ROY: I regret to say that the loan appropriation for irrigation and water supply has beeP reduced from £14.036 last vear to £13,000 tilis VP,ar. Therefore it does ~ot appear that very much will be clone in the near future in connection with irrigation.

Dealing with small schemes I should like to mention that a proposal was submitted by the locd producers' association at Yinger· bay to lo~k the Bungeworgorai Creek. The Sub.Dcpartment of Irrigation and '\Yater Supply sent an officer to investigate the pro. posal and in his report he said-

" Flood waters would be diverted over the flats and rich deposits of silt would result with consequent heavy growth of grasses.

" The water stored after floods could be used for irrigating lucerne."

I was particularly interested in this pro­posal. because no lucerne is grown in the Marano.a. district, and if the construction of

$!I a, weir over Bungcworgorai Creek \vould help the local producers in that area to grow lucerne by irrigation. it wonld be a splendid innstment. The locking of this creek would not be expensive. It would be an interest­ing and valuable experiment, if the Minister would consider it only from that point of view. The irrigable area is not very large, approximately 40,000 acres. Nine landowners would lJeneflt. After that officer had furnished a very excellent report, the department wrote as follows:-

"I have, by direction, to point out that this department is unable, as a general policy, to provide funds for local irrigation schemes throughout the State, more particularly as the present f1nancial position precludes any possi­bilitv of such funds being made avail-able: ·

"It is thought that such schemes are ones for the consideration of the local authority interested, and it is suggested that the L.P.A. might be advised to place its proposal before the council.

" If. after investigation and considera­tion, the council desires to proceed with

the scheme and is able to arrange the necessary finance, pos,,ibly by means of al\l application for a subsidy-loan, this department would be prepared to make th~ services of an engineer available to advise and assist the council on payment merely of the expenses incurred in con­nection with the making of the officer's services available."

I am quite satisfied that the people interBsted will go no further with this proposal. They put it before the sub.department as they thought that the Government should take the initiative in such a small undertaking.

Kotwithstanding the rejection of this pl'O­posal I believe there are many watercourses that can be locked at a very small cost. I agree to a certain extent with what the hon. member for Dall)y said. Some time ago a weir was placed across the Barwon River at Mungindi, where it is fairly wide. As part of l\hll,lgindi is in Queensland and the oth _r part in N'ew South \Valeo, the Govern­ments concerned agreed t contribute half the cost of that weir, which was £2,300. That should give some idea of the cost of erecting similar "\Yeirs over our \V a t,ercourses. I do not sa.y for one moment that all our watercourses could be locked at that cost; I merely mention the figure as a guide to the cost of locking our watercoursBs of medium size.

The hon. member for Dalby mentioned the Balonne Rivar, or, as it is commonly called, the Condamine. This river rises in the vicinity of Killarney and runs through St. George. Some time ago a survey was made there, and an analysis of the adjacent soil showed that it was eminently suitable for irrigation. When work of this nature is undertaken that river should receive every <'Onsideration. If a weir was placed at St. George the water would be backed up right to Killarney, and later on, no doubt, other weirs would be built on the river. When these Estimates are under discussion we always talk about the need for the con· servation of wat8l' and fodder and I am of the opinion that to the degree that we have conservation of water the need for conservation of fodder would diminish.

Mr. EDWARDS (2\Tanango) [4.15 p,m.] This is a very important vote. Water con­servation and irrigation has been the subject of debate for many years in this Assembly, but the attention it has received from Governments has not been commensurate with its importance. We appreciate the import­ance of this matter when we consider what has been accomplished by the conservation of water for stock, domestic, and irrigation purposes elsewhere. The success of irrigation in other places convince" us of its possibilitie, in Queensland.

I suggest to the Minister that the depart. ment pay greater attention to what I might call the spraying process. It would be possible to weir many of the creeks referred to by the hon. member for Maranoa, and the adjacent land would be thus made available for growing lucerne all the year round. The value of the lucerne crop can be assesed from the fact that a man with 6 acres of lucerne that had been growing for a period under the spraying system could feed 150 cows even during a dry spell such as we are experiencing at the present time. 'Yien who have experience of this syste.-,, are of the opinion that an extension of it wollld

Mr, Edwards.]

756 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

be of untold advantage to the State. The Minister can appreciate the importancp of giving the people a feeling of security ana enabling them to provide for their 'stock during difficult times such as the one we are going through.

The price for potatoes has for a long time been at what might be termed an almost ridiculous level, but with >some system of irrigation such crops could be grown in Queensland and the money retained in the State, instead of having to send it away to "he South. From that point of view alone one realises the value of irrigation, even in a small way.

In my district the Barambah, Barker's and Stewart Creeks run through an area of what might bo described as flat country, and given fair sca&onal rains grow lucerne erupt. quite successfully, but after a. succession of adverso sea~~on8 the lucerne dies out. A sche1ne of irrigation under which 60,000 acres could Le watered would beyond all doubt b3 <.. won­derful advantage to the State.

The hon. member for Cunningham m;d many other hon. members are fearful of the silting that might take place. Of course, that is happening to-day, but one need refer only to the 1IaJlee country in Vic­toria for a reply. The settlers in the ::Halloe years ago, 'vith considerable fore­sight ',aw the nece:,sity of carrying mot an irrigation system. They saved the settle­ment and brought millions of pounds of money to Australia.. Th0re are 3,000 nrles of surface eha.nneling, there and the syst-?m operates by graYita.tion. In very dry seasons contracts have to be le~ to clear the sand from the channels. Th<:'se men realise the value of a water supply, """ in Queensland a water supply is the very life­blood of production and the security of the people.

The Minister should devote greater atten­tion to this sub-department than in the past. The dairying industry alone shows a decline of £1,680,000 in returns in the past year, and that is not the only loss suffered by this industry. The total loss<>s have been tremendous and include loss of cows, pigs and other livestock. From that point of view alone there should be no cavilling at the wise expenditure of money in controlling the supply of water now allowed to run to waste. From my own experience the people in the far west could have reduced their losses of stock in the long drought by 50 per cent. if there had been an adequate water supply. In every instance when the surface water on the back of the runs dnes out-and these areas may be said to repre­sent the whole of the carrying capacity of the station-the stock have to ·come to one bore drain or other big watering place. Another grave difficulty we discovered was that when men in difficulty like that attempted to remove stock from place to place they found that the stock routeF hnd alw dried up. You will realise, Mr. King, how important this is to Queensland, a.nd what huge losses have been exporien0ed because insufficient attention has been given in years gone by to water conservation. I feel sure that if the millions that have been spent in and around the large centres of population had been spent outback along the lines I have suggested it would have brought about a. continuance of production and of work in the interests of people who are unemployed.

[llir. Eclwards.

After all, when a great water basin is c-rcat0d the assistance it is going to giYe to the people and to production is not going to be for one year, but for this generation and perhaps the 011e to come. Therefore. by doing thtt, we should be giving eontinuous employment to the people from the point of production to that of consumption. \Vhen millions are spent on large public works the people Pmployed arc unen1ployed again w·,1en those works are completed. This is a pomt that we should have looked to in QueewlanJ many years ago. \Ve :_..hould haYe OPL'ned up the country under a secure tenure w that tlw people ta,king up the country would not ha Ye been entirely dependent on rai dalL Statistics tell us that these dry periods wrll con1o again and again, and therefore n f!reat responsibilit,y rests on any Government to give security not only to the producer but also to the Statr, in the way I have sng­gested.

I do not think we shall C'Ycr haYe ihe population in this State that it should carry and '"e def:ire to sec here, unl('.ss v.'e giYe some security along those lines. \Vlwn people strike times like the present-in f>Jct li kc the laot three years-they become cl is­hcartcned and get into financial difficulties, their stork die, and they turn their c·yes towards the citiec,, \Ve are encouraging that drift of p0)1ulation from the country to J.he cities. From that point of view alone thi:; is <t very big qcwstion in the interests cf t:w development of a great State like Queensland.

Mr. TAYLOR (Enoggcra) [4.29 p.m.J: I congratulate the Minister on the good work done during the past tw<>lve months in the conservation of water and the improvement that has taken place in water schemes in the pastoral areas of Northern Queensland. No doubt drought conditions to a certain extent necessitated extra expenditure along those lines, but the Government as a GoverHment administering a capitalist State cannot be called upon to shoulder the whole of the burden of finding water on propertie;; that more 0r less belong to financial imtitu­tions who should take some part in allevi­ating what I believe to be one of th') greatest problems Queensland is fa-ced witor.

It is ,·ery easy for one Opposition member after another to suggest that the Government should spend milli-ons of pounds in water conservation and irrigatwn. Why, it i,. only a few days ago, when the Budget was being discussed, that they were com­plaining that it did not forecast any reduc­tion in taxation. It is very pleasant to be able to talk in millions and to picture green fields and pastures new, but what of tho cost? Vi'here is all the money to come from that hon. men>bers have suggested during the l,a.st half-hour or more should be spent?

Irrigation schemes can be a success only where climatic conditions and geolog-ical and geophysical conditions are favourable. The hon. member for Dalby suggested weirs on the Condamine River 8 miles apart. I should like t.o see weirs constructed across thc Condamine River at distances of from 20 to 30 miles, but I should like to. see it again after the weirs had been up for fifty years. I venture the opinion that there would be no Conda.mine River then. There might be the dry track of the old riv<'r bed, but it would have a new bed.

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 757

As a matter .of fact many rivers in Queens­land arc not suitable for locking for irriga­tion purposes, or for the construction of dams.

This problem has agitated the mind of man perhaps ever since the dawn of civilisa­tion. \Ve have ·Only to read ancient history to learn the lessons that wBre taught to engineers who studied the problem. I have travelled Queensland as much as any other hon. member. and I cannot think of one place that is suitable for a large under­taking, that is to say, one of the magnitude of the Burrinjuck, or even the W aranga basin in Victoria. The only schemes that could be successfully launched in this State a.re emall schemes along suitable rivers and creeks that would serve a few thousand acres in the immediate localities, and so increase the productivity of the neighbour­ing country. . But that does not solve the problem of the dry areas in the \Vest.

It may be possible in an odd place or two along the Wan·ego River to embark upon irrigation schemes, but another difficulty would bo the type of soil near by. Although one may go to any part of Queensland where there is an abundance of water to be obtained, and where there could be a prolific growth of vegetables and fruit, <Jne must consider the ultimate cost to the man on the land. Transport problems have to be overcome, and markets must be found for the increased production. I agree with the hon. member for Nanango that probably small irrigation schemes would help con­siderably to prevent stDck losses in tbe dairying districts. It should be realised that the loss of a valuable cow or bull does not mean only the actual loss of the animal itself, but there is also the serious conse­quential loss. Therefore, it is almost impos­eible to arrive at even an approximate estimate of the economic loss due to drought. I have already said in this Chamber that I worked as a youngster on the W aranga basin. I saw the canals constructed in that the first big irrigation scheme undertaken bY the Victorian Government. I saw the G~ulburn Valley before the scheme was begun, and I saw it afterwards, and I can quite understand that it is very pleasant for hon. members to visualise a similar tm.nsformation, say, on the Darling Downs.

Mr. MooRE: What was the loss on that scheme during the first twenty years?

Mr. TAYLOR: The loss on that scheme for the first twenty years ran into millions of pounds.

There may be a possibilitv of evolving a water scheme in the upper· reaches of the Condamine River in the Killarnev district that would give some relief to the Darling Downs. That would be a good proposal, because the Downs country possesses the best soil in the south-western part of the State for irrigation purposes. It is also close to markets and within easv access of the seaboard for the export of its surplus. A few months ago when travelling from Sydney in the mail train I discussed the question of irrigation with Dr. Bradficld. D;. Bradfield h!'s.had considerable experience With the Burrm]uck and other schemes in New South Wales. He thought it possible to design an irrigation scheme at the head of the Condamine River that would giYe valuable service to the Downs. He was also Df the opinion that the Lockyer River might

be used for a series of small irrigeri· n schemes, as it would serve valuable land.

There is a great possibility that Austrnli:1 will haYe to depend less on artesian waters, because the supply is diminishing. That is to be expected. Data collected by geologists and geoph)sicists go to show that Australia is the oldest countrv in the world. Thnt being so, it is natural that certain conditions will assert themsclYcs in a way that will makP it very. hard for future generatiuns to maintain themselves except in those areas with a good rainfall. It is advisable, there­fore, that a search be made of the whole of our western areas in order to discover how they can be watered. It might be possible, as in other States, to use our science and labour in collecting supplies of water in the rainy season to enable us to carry out schemes of irrigation so that we shall be able to tide our various industries over drought periods. That would Lc of some value to pastoralists, and of materio.l value to the States.

Some persons support immigration to this country believing that a huge population will make for successful settlement, and for a succe .. ,,ful national life, but before such a scheme can be undertaken measures mu"t be adopted to improve the conditions of settl,e­ment in Australia in general and Queensland in particular. Jmt where we are to begin is a matter for serious consideration.

It would be Yery pleasant to spend £1,000,000 on irrigation, as suggested by tiw hem. member for Dalby, but where shall we obtain that sum from? The Commonwealth Government burkc all their obligations in these matters. They apply the " scientific research " method of avoiding them. They are like the Indian medicine man m witch doctor who after passing the faking stage, does nothin'g practical. The Commonwealth Government are responsible for taking huge sums of money in taxation from the people of Australia. There is no doubt that the Commonwealth Government could give very valuable help in irrigation. It is beyond question that the unemployed of this city and other cities and towns throughout Queensland could be used in reproductive work throughout the State if the Common­wealth Government were prepared •to nccept their share Df the responsibility for unem­ployment and national development

At present, if we wish to transport men to the Western country, who is to provide the cost and the cost of providing suitable accommodation on the job?

Mr. PL UNKETT : You refer to the unem­played?

Mr. TAYLOR: Yes. Single men would be better doing that than what they are doing now. We could not shift the married men, .. but we could send the thousands of single men to the country to engage in these works, and they would be better there than they are hert>.

The difficulty is that there is a cry on the one hand for a reduction in taxation and on the other hand for additional expendi­ture. We need money to get the jobs started and to provide full wages while it is in progress. If the Commonwealth Government shouldered their obligations they would con­tribute towards that end. vVe shall not solve the problem of unemployment and of national development until there is greater co-operation between the States and the Commonwealth in the work of absorbing the

Mr. Taylm·.]

758 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

unemployed. 'I'he present method is not pro­ductive of very good results. A more efficient scheme can only be brought into operation by greater co-operation by the Common­wealth Government. Approximately £21,000,000 is collected each year in the Commonwealth in unemployment relief taxa­tion. If that amount of money was supple­mented by an equal amount from Common­wealth revenue, reproductive work capable of absorbing the unemployed could be engaged in. The Commonwealth Government arc prepared to take £11,500,000 to buy a few warships from overseas, but they are not prepared to put a similar amount into a water consen·ation scheme that would bring about national development and relieve unem­ployment. They provide only £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 for the States. They are pre­pared to pay £3.000,000 to an armament firm in Britain for one warship that could be sunk by a bomb dropped from an aeroplane twenty minutes after it was floated. ·work in the cities should be the prerogative of the married men, and if the Commonwen,lth Government gave adequate assistance the smglc men could be used in great repro­duetive works in the country.

Mr. Nnmro: You expect the Common­wealth Gm·ernment to do everything.

::VIr. TAYLOR: Not at all. The fact remains the Commonwealth Government should recognise that this is a national question; and in view of the fact that the'" have their finger on the greatest revenue­producing sources, Customs and excise and the post office, they should give greater consideration to matters of national develop­ment, and not be so prone to spend millions on machines for destroying life.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I ask the hon. member to connect his remarks with the vote under discussion.

Mr. TAYLOR: There is only one way to make provision for the continuance of human life and that is by settling people on the land; it is on the product of the land that man subsists. \Ve are discussing the applica­tion of water to the land and I am making an attempt to convince hon. members opposite, who have asked that large sums of money be spent by the Queensland Govern­ment for this purpose, that it is for the Commonwealth Government to help in the irrigating and development of the State by recognising it as a national matter. The loss occasioned by drought in Queensland is of national importance, and runs into millions of pounds. The Commonwealth Government impose taxation on the people of Queensland in the same ratio as those in the other States, and Queenslanders are therefore justly entitled to some measure of support from that Government in the finan­cing of irrigation schemes for the develop­ment of their State.

Mr. Nnnro: You want it for education, unemployment--

Mr. TAYLOR: I should be prepared to vote for a scheme that would give work to the single men not one day a week, as at the present time, and not work such as they are doing--

Mr. NnrMo: Get them out into the country.

Mr. TAYLOR: We shall have to give them more than a day a week to get them into the country. They would be· given full­time work if the Government were assured

[.'!1r. Taylor.

that they were employed on work for which they could get a full return for the money expended. Until some greater work IS under­taken than is being done to-day there will be no solution to the unemployment, irriga­tion or water-conservation problems.

Mr. BRAND (Isis) [4.50 p.m.]: This important sub-department contains many scientific officers who have been very cour­teous in giving advice to settlers and others in matters pertaining to irrigation. i\Iuch work has been accomplished in water suJ!ply and sewerage schemes. The Dawson nver inigation scheme at Theodore is under the jurisdiction of this office.

This is more or less in the nature of a constructing department and it is a great pity that a larger amount of l_oan funds or other moneys is not made ava1lable for t~e carrving out of such a national work. It. Is true' that sewerage schemes for the cltie• and towns are excellent work but we cannot forget that twenty ye":r" ag'? the Q:'ec:nsl":nd Parliament rrave consideratiOn to ungabon projects, ma";,y of which are proof of the wisdom of the people of that day and show the need fo 11 an energetic and scientific Sub­Department of Irrirration and \Vatl'l' Supply. Success has result;;'d in those areas where irrigation schemes have been expenmented with and they have proved profitable to the settlers. The Burdekin and Inkerman ar~as are illustrations of the value to the natwn of irrigation. Certainly, much money was lost in experimentation, but now the value of the annual production of . these . areas IS equal to the capital expenditure mvolv~d, and has been so for the past fifteen or. SIX· teen years. This also proves conclusively what a system of irrigation can do for the agricultural industry. It IS true that the Government of that bme regarded these works as State enterprises, but as such they were not successful. They were then passed to the control of the people concerned, and since then a great measure of success has been achieved.

At 4.54 p.m., The CHAIR>IAN resumed the chair. Mr. BRAND: Hon. members can recall

the amount of discussion that took place in this Chamber regarding the Dawson River scheme at Theodore and Castle Creek. The Secretary for Public Lands at that time, the Hon. William McCormack, to~k members of Parliament to the settlement m its early days to have a look at the work, and to point out the value it would be to crops when water was applied to the soil. In the last report submitted to Parliament by the officer in charge of the Sub-Depart­ment of Irrigation and Water Supply we find a resume of the work now being curicd out at Theodore. Although the original project of damming the Nathan Gorge waR not proceeded with there is still a small irrigation system at Theodore and that report has this to say-

" A matter of importance to the future welfare of the settlement is the introduction of sheep. Drought-stricken sheep brought in from Western Queens­land recovered in a remarkable manner on the luxurious pastures and fodde:r crops growing in the district, and this fact has been instrumental in opening up a fresh industrial avenue in Central Queensland. It would appear from indi­cations to date that much of the Dawson

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 759

Valley lands is suitable for sheep graz­ing and fattening. Negotiations have been completed for the granting of a special tenure over portions in the irrigation and dry zones, with special sheep developmental conditions, to enable the furtherance of the project of sheep grazing and fat lamb raising. The venture is being watched by many settlers, and its success will give a good impetus to tho development and pros­perity of this district."

Perhaps the Minister can tell us what those experiments have proved? If we could establish a new industry such as fat lamb raising in the central part of our continent the money involved would be worth spend­ing and would possibly be the means of winning new wealth for our people to the extent of that expenditure. \Ve know that a great deal of money was lavishly spent in anticipation of the larger scheme, and. therefore, a considerable amount of capital expenditure was wasted.

If we can by irrigation and water conser­vation obviate drought conditions and build up new industria' we shall be doing some­thing worth while for this country. I submit that we should, as a Parliament, recognise that we should advance more money for the purpose of prosecuting irrigation and water schemes throughout the agricultural areas of the State.

Mr. PowER: How would you get more money ? Inqrease taxation?

Mr. BRAND : The hon. member asks how we can get more money. I think every person in Queensland believes that if the money were raised to-day by special taxa­tion and spent in irrigation schemes, when that work was completed it would leave something behind of permanent value. The people would not object much to a tax raised for that purpose.

The hon. member who just resumed his seat endeavoured to throw the responsibility on to the Federal Government. We know that the Federal Government recognises their responsibilities in connection with water schemes, and they have in the last twelve months made provision to cover one­third of the cost of water schemes over a period of ten years. The Government opposite have taken full advantage of that offer. Under that scheme the State takes the responsibility for one-third and the local authority concerned the remaining one-third. I do not feel that there would be any doubt about assistance from the Federal Govern­ment in irrigation for the agricultural areas of the State if the State Department would submit schemes for their investigation. That Government have not indicated that they are not sympathetic with such projects. On the contrary, they have shown that they are sympathetic, but they have no control oyer such matters. The State has control over irrigation development within the State, and it is for the State to submit schemes that merit help. I feel confident that the Federal Government, no matter of what party, would recognise the wisdom of helping in such great national works as irrigation.

On the Burnett River we have a small scheme at Bingera, which has been the means of finding work for man}- persons who previously had none. The value of the

increase in wealth production far exceeds the capital cost of the sQheme.

The watercourses in the great Burnett area are capable of being locked for the purpose of conserving water for irrigation, and these scheme' would be of undnubted benefit to the people in the localities con­cerned. As a matter of fact, this great area ic rc·cognised as one of the best in the State. 'rhe citrus fruits from the Central Burnett take pride of place in Australia, and are finding a very rE·ady market solely because the growers are able to produce the fruit of the highest quality by irrigation. The land is eminently suitable for irrigation, irrespective of the crop grown. I submit that the Minister should consider the wisdom of locking the river at suitable points so that the settlers may take advantage of the opportunity to increase their production.

During the year I submitted a small scheme for locking the river, a scheme that would have ensured an abundant water supply to the citrus fruit industry in the district, and although it 'appealed to the Government they, unfortunat<>ly, had not the funds available to carrv out the work, and conseqwmtly water that might well be used with ber;efit to the people in the great Bm·nett Valley still runs to waste. I urge the lYiinister to carry ••ut a vigorous policy o£ water conservation and irrigation. I am sure that nobody would object to the expendi­ture of monev on these schemes in this very fertile valley. In point of fact. money is being spent to-day in ways that are not nearly so remunerative to the country as these would be.

The hon. member for Maranoa rightly said that if w·e could embark upon the conservation of water, conservation of fodder would take care of itself. That is a truism that is recognised throughout the rural areas cf the State. If we have an abundance of water, the natural corollary will be an abundance of feed, and thus we shall be able to a certain extent to overcome the disastrous effects of droughts. I cannot see anv means of overcoming the serious losses due to droughts except l)y the cJnservation of water and the irrigation along our water­ways. It has been claimed by some, and there is a considerable body of opinion in support of it, that some of our rivers will not lend themselves t.o irrigation, that they would silt up, and eventually the water­courses would be changed. That may be true, but we have a sub-department staffed with competent, scientific men, who should be able to advise the Government on the point. Silting may take place in some of the rivers but there are others where the schemes c~uld be carried out without this difficulty. We shall be safe in spending some money in conserving water for irriga­tion purposes in suitable localitif's.

During the past year I introduced a depu­tation from the Isis cane area respecting an irrigation project. It was claimed that by irrigation 3,000 more persons could be settled in that area. That illustrates the benefits. of irrigation. The Minister and his depart­mental officers were pleased to give us assistance. The people of the district con­sented to pay the cost of the trial survey_ It is very difficult for private persons to get the services of men thoroughly competent to advise on irrigation works, like the officers

Mr. Brand.]

760 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

of this sub-department. The Minister can­not allow his officers to advise all who seek their services, because his staff is not ade­quate for the purpose, but it is a matter for regret that when people are willing to expend £2,000 or £3,000 on water schemes they cannot obtain the necessary professional advice. It is true that if such persons approach the sub,department its departmental officers will supply them with all the informa­tion at their disposaL My point is that if scientific men were available for the purpose of advising on legitimate schemes it would have a beneficial effect, not only on this State, but the whole of Australia ..

'I'here ha.s not been any great move in connection with irrigation for a considerable time, so that no such schemes are under consideration. I wonder whether the Minis­ter thinks that the experiment in the Da wson V alley should be the last his Government should undertake. Perhaps the Government think that the expenditure on that scheme and the results do not warrant them in pro­ceedinl!' _with similar schemes. I suggest to the Mm1stcr that when he meets in confer­ence Ministers from other States in charge of irrigation projects he will propose such sch~mes as the national Gove~nment might be mduced to finance. Sometimes pumping water becomes uneconomic for irrigation PL!rposes, and we have no great schemes in mmd where water can be obtained without pumping. In that respect we are not so fortunate as Victoria and perhaps some other States. Assistance should be forthcoming from Governments to enable settlers to under­take private schemes for the benefit of their respective _dish·i~ts. Millions of pounds can be spent m th1s State on conservation of water . and irri!\atio!l schemes, and money spent m that dn·ectwn would increase pro­ductiOn and add to our national wealth.

The Gov~rnme~t shoulq prosecute a vigor­ous campa1gn w1th a v1ew to making the p_eople irr_igation-ll_linded. They should pub­lish all mformatwn at their disposal in o_rder to show the immense value of irriga­tion works, as IS done m the United States of America. Companies that own irrigation schemes there advertise their value and how production can be doubled and even quad­rupled. I!' that wa,y they bring the benefits of. n-r1gatwn before the people. Although thrs 1s a young State, we can follow that example. This sub-department can give the people, not through its annual report, but by means of leaflets, inf_orl!lati_on showing the enormous value of rrr1gatwn. The examples we have cannot fa1rly be termed fa!lures. or be said to have added burdens to the State. What has been accomplished at Inkerman, on the Burdekin, and at Fairy­mead, on the Burnett, is an indication of w~at can be accomplished by irrigation in th1s . State.. I urge the Minister to carry o_ut. ungatwu and water conservation to the hm1t of h1s re,ources.

'When discussing this vote last vear some criticism was levelled against the stock-route improYement scheme. I do not know whether the Minister has abandoned that scheme.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS; No, the work is going ahead full swing.

Mr. BRA::'i"D: I am very pleased to hear that it is continuing. I 'hope the whole cost will not be placed on the people.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS ; The State pays half and the local authority pays the other half.

[Mr. Brand.

Mr. BRAND: I should like to see these schemes regarded as national schemes. The department could carry out the work ar,d place the responsibility on the local authority concerned to maintain the supplies of water.

The Minister has sought the help of the Federal Government in this matt·er, and during the last twelve months they have come to the aid of the Government. I find that the people are very well pleased to bo able to get a water supply on the basis of one-third subsidy to two-thirds loan, the two-thirds being found by the Federal and State Governments. The completion of these schemes will no doubt help to safegnartl the health of the community by making possible the provision of sewerage system~.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. member has exhausted the time allowed hirYl under the Standing Orders.

Mr. JE,SSON (Ii ennedy) [5.15 p.m.]: The hon. member who just resumed his seat attempted to make a comparison between Queensland and America, but there is no analogy between the two countries. The hon. member for Enoggera clearly said that weir construction would be a waste of money on many of our streams.

The whole matter of water conservation has been thoroughly investigated by the department, and it has been found that most of the rivers in the western, northern. and southern parts of the State are not suitable for the construction of weirs. The hon. member for Enoggera pointed out that most of those weirs would be liable to become silted up with the result that the rivers would probably take other courses. It is noticeable in the western areas of the Stare that as you leave the river banks the country is lower. Evidence of that is found in the existence of billabong.' and waterholes that are filled when the river overflows its hanks and runs out for miles. The water gradually evaporates and a flat surface of hard country remains until the next flood. There are rivers that wouLd be suitable for weiring, but we must remember that water lying for any length of time on the Mitehell grass country would have the effect of souring it. There are many problems to be considered before we embark on any large scheme for weiring rivers and creeks.

The only place that offers scope for large schemes is the coastal belt. The Stanley River Dam consists of a concrete weir between two mountains. This is the con­figuration of the country in other places on the coaet in which natural facilities may be used for water supplies of large country towns and hydro-electric schemes.

The supplying of water on stock routes is too large a problem to be handled by the State at all. Some time ago the Minister approached the graziers and pastoralists as to the imposition of a levy, but when thev were asked to undertake as it were a s~heme of drought insurance bv making pro­vision for water and fodder' they turned down the proposal. It is hard to understand why hon. members opposite are continually agitating for something that the people con­cerned have shown, in effect, that they do not war.t. A levy should have been put on wool many years ago.

The hon. member for Isis, in contradistinc­tion to the hon. member for Enoggera, said that the Commonwealth Government pro­vided finance, but it was a paltry amount

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.) Supply. 761

and lasted no more than a couple of months. This money was not advanced only for water schemes in country towns but in many cases for the provision of suitable landing grounds for aeroplanes in the various towns in the coastal areas on the air mail route. This was held to be part of air defence. At Ingham, for instance, £1,000 was made aYailable from that fund for aviation. Such work is not the concern of the State Govern­ment. This money was merely handed to the State to do something that should have been done by the Commonwealth Govern­ment in the first place. It is the responsi­bility of that Government to provide for aerial defence schemes.

Mr. MuLLER: Do you not think aerodromes are a national work?

Mr. JESSON: Aerodromes are very neces­sary, but the Commonwealth Government should provide the whole of the money necessary for them and the local authorities should not have to pay towards defence. That is the point I wish to make and I am indebted to the hon. member for making the interjection. The local authorities and the State Government have to contribute two-thirds. and the Common­wealth Government one-third of the amount required for aerodromes, although it is a national matter. The amount contributed by the ratepayers and taxpayers should be free for expenditure in the development of the country. The Commonwealth hands over the money in comparatively small amounts. On one occasion the sum was £224,000, which could last for only a few months.

I offer my sincere thanks to the depart­ment for its good work in the provision of <1 water supply at Ingham, which will become an accomplished fact about Christmas time. The Minister should give very serious con­sideration to greater supervision over such works. At Babinda, Cairns and Tully con­crete pipes altogether unsuitable for the work were installed and now the local authorities have to borrow additional money to replace them.

Mr. NnrMo: \Vas this day labour or con­tract?

Mr. JESSON: I am glad the hon. member made that interjection. Some of the jobs were done by day labour and some by con­tract, but that has got nothing to do with the matter. Firms from Melbourne and other places who have begun operations in Queensland put those pipes in. I do not like to accuse anybody of doing anything by unfair methods, but it is remarkable that these certain firms made the whole of the concrete pipes for all North Queensland. They g-ot all the jobs, and the same engineer did all of thorn. They have gone to pieces during the last twelve months. Now, any­body capable of thinking for himself can draw the logical conclusion from that. That is an instance of the way the people's money \Vas spent. There should have boon closer supervisi-on. Some of these jobs were con­structed by tuppcnny-ha.'penny engineers who never saw a water-supply system in some cases until they got on the job. There are any amount of so-called water engineer' in Queensland to-day, and to my mind they are a lot of bums, who do not know one end o-f a water pipe from another. The~ depend on their foremen to help them along. Furthermore, they live on the brains of the Sub-Department of Irrigation a.nd WateJ

Supply. Officers from that department come to these towns and point out various things to thesn so-called water engineers, and they Jiyo on that knowledge and manage to scramble through the job in a fashion. This is not exactly a Gov-ernment job, and the Government cannot be blamed for what has happened, because they have handed the matter over to local authorities. The G-o-vernment should have confidence in the people governing these local authorities to do the right thing with the ratepayers' money. Unfortunately, these things have happened. As a matter of fact, I f-ought against the Ingham water-supply company for many years until we could get rid of the engineer, and brought in a competent man who would give the people 20s. in the £1 in the work done.

There is another matter concerning the health of the people that should be dis­cussed on this vote. I suggest that the sub-department go into the matter of hav­ing pipes made of a different pattern. The pipes now used fit one into the other, and the joint is made with rope or material of that kind, and in time that jnte rots and leaves a cavity of anything from two to five inches in depth. That means a br-eeding ground for cockroaches and other Yermin. These cockroaches and vermin get out and g-o through the vent pipes into the houses of people. I suggest that the pipes be joined or filled in with bitumen or tar, or some such cheap material.

Mr. GoDFREY MoRGAN : Why not put a toad in one of them?

Mr. JESSON: If we put some hon. membcrr, opposite in that wonld be the end of eYerything. I went into this matter my­self and where I live the places were filled with cockroach Pi·. I endeavoured to trace them to their source, and I dug underground and I found there were nests of hundreds of them round these pipes, and they got out and crawled into houses not only through the water pipes, but in the waste pipes from kitchen sinks and air vents. This is a matter that might be looked into by

-the department.

The CHAIRMAN: I think that is a matter for the local authority.

Mr. JESSOX: I am pleased, Mr. Hanson, that you allowed me to get that point in. I conclude by saying that I thank the Minister for what he has done in my electorate.

Mr. NIMMO (Oxley) [5.29 p.m.]: Some rather remarkable things have come out in this debate. I think the hon. meml)er who has just resumed his seat has done a great service. ·what is the Sub-Department of Irrigation and Water Supply doing? Is it <cngaging engineers who are not competent to carry out the work?

The SECRETARY FOR P-cBLIC LANDS : It is not the fault of engineers from that depart­ment. Other engineers carry out these jobs.

Mr. KIM:.\1[0: The hon. member cited the Ingham and other water supplies, and said they had bum engineers to carry out the work. The Minister shoul-d look into this matter. I understood that preference was given to firms manufacturing pipes within the State, but if the pipes are coming from Melbourne that is another matter. We should

Mr. Nimmo.]

762 Supply. ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

creab' employment for our own people, and if pipe" for these projects are being brought from the Southern States when they can be manuhctured in this State something is very seriously ''Tong.

Mr. JESSON (Kenncdy): I rise to a point of order. I did not say that. What I did say was that the firms about which com­plaints had been made because they do not come to Queensland have shifted their busi­ness holus bolus to the North and are making the pipes up there, and that in some cases thev did not conform to the standard reqttired. I did not say that the engineer of the Hinchinbrook Shire Council was a bum <'ngineer, and I did not say that the Sub­Department of Irrigation and \Vater Supply allowed them to go there. I distinctly said that the local authority governed these thinf!S it·-elf and appointed its own engineer. I suggested that the sub-department should appoint itf' own men to go and supervise the·"e jobs to sec how the work was being done.

The CHAIRMA:\ : The hon. member for Oxley will accept the explanation of the hon. member for Kcnnedy. He certainly did misrepresent him to some extent.

Mr. KIMMO : I am willing to accept the hon. member's explanation, but he certainly left me with the impression that the pipes were being manufactured in Melbourne, and I took the matter up in all seriousne-,s. I am p-lad to have his assurance that they are not being made in Melbourne. If work of the nature mentioned is being carried out in North Queensland under the Sub-Depart­ment of Irrigation and Water Supply, then I say definitely that a searching inquiry is necessary.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : It is not under the Sub-Departm"nt of Irrigation and Water Supply. The local authorities have full control.

Mr. :-.JIMJ\10: I was pleased to hear the hon. member for J'v1aranoa suggest that weirs should be comtructed across the Balonne River to provide better water supplies in that area. I think the Minister will agree that we are very poorly served in this State with big reservoirs of water. During his travels through Cana-da and America I am sure he must have been impressed by the wonderful natural reservoirs there. He must have been envious of thB huge lakes of fresh water in those countries. \Vhat a wonderful body of water there must be in Lake Erie ! \Ve can stand on one shore and cannot see the other. Then. less than 100 miles away, we have Lake Ontario. If we only had those two beautiful lakes of fresh water in this country what a wonderful difference they would make! However, we have noth­ing like that. and so we have to provide water by artificial means to make up for the deficiency.

The SEcRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA;,.;Ds: 'lbe Stanley River Dam will be the second largest scheme in Australia.

Mr. NIM::VIO : I am not considering that scheme at the moment. The cost of this project will have to be borne by the rate­payers of Brisbane. If it comes under the control of the Minister I hope that he is paying a groat deal of attention to it. I know this, that we shall have the dam at some date, but at what date I am not pre­pared to say.

[.IVI1·. Nimrno.

'l'he SEcRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It is the most efficientlv carried out scheme that I have ever soerl.

Mr. NIM:\10: \Ye have the Minister's a.ssm'a nee on that point, but 1 understand also that a searching inquiry is being made into the whole business to find out just what is fOing on. I am not going to discuss the Stanlev River Darn at the pre<.ent time, because that is a matter for the future.

The CHAIRMAN: The Stanlev River Dam comes under another vote, too. '

Mr. NIM::VIO : The Minister introducBd the subject.

The SECRETARY FOR Prnuo LANDS : You were discussing water supplies.

~Ir. NIMMO: I am trying to suggest the project" that ehould be brought forward by the sub-department to provide additional water facilities, and that is why I want to congratulate the hon. member for Maranoa on his suggestions.

In looking through the Financial State­ment I was a _tounded to find that of a total loan appropriation of £3.369,000 the s~allest provision of all is £13,000 for irriga­tJOn and water supply. I protest.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIO LA;,.;ns: That is r.ot correct.

Mr. NIM:YIO: The Financial Statement at page 15 states-

" LOAN EsTEILITES.

" The funds to become available for loan expenditures for the current year are e~timated at £3,369,000."

Later on it says-" The expenditure proposed from Loan

Fund Account has been allocated as follows:-

" ]), uloprnent­::VIain Roads ... Land Settlement Forestry .. -Water Supply and Irriga-

tion Agricultural Bank and

Rural Assistance Mining and Aerial Survey Loans and Subsidies to

Local Bodies Stanley River Dam ... Brisbane River Improve­

ment Works

£

280,000 219,720 84,280

13,000

220.000 37,000

1,000,000 275,000

90,000,

Therefore, my statement is quite correct. Only £13,000 is provided in the Loan Esti· mates for water supply and irrigation.

If sluices are let into the bottom of weirs constructed across rivers and creeks no silt­ing should take place, but if that provision is not made silting is inevitable. This is a question that could be referred to a com­mittee of experts for report to Parliament as to the best means of overcoming the difficulty. Personally, I consider that a scheme embodying the construction of reservoirs at the heads of rivers and creeks in order that water may be released in dry times would be very beneficial. That might reduce our difficulties in dry periods.

Time a.nd again warnings have been issued that our artesian supplies of water will cease in time. Apparently the Government have done nothing in the matter.

Supply. (30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 763

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: That is not true. Come along to my office and I will show you a very substantial file on the matter.

Mr. NIMMO: We are all in accord with the view that should our artesian water supply cease the whole of western Queens­land would become valueless. The revenue received from our pastoral lands by the department would disappear. The 1936 report· of the Engineer in Charge of the Sub­Department of Irrigation and Water Supply includes a graph that shows the flows of various bores. The Engineer, after examin­ing· the data of a number of these bores, sets down an approximate date when they will cease to be flowing bores. The bore with the longest life in that respect is expected to cease flowing in 1955. A number of bores are expected to cease in 1940 and some even earlier. The Marathon bore ceased flowing in 1935. Particulars are given respecting another bore, which although it had a wonderful flow when water wa~ first struck has now stopped flowing.

Mr. GLEDSON: How do von propose to remedy that state of affairs?

Mr. NIMMO: Too much of our artesian water is allowed to run to waste. A survev should be made of the whole position ·

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : V\T e have got that survey. How could these particulars be given without a survey?

Mr. NIMMO : If the Minister is in posses­sion of a survey then he should have some scheme to conserve that water. In the past we have seen wonderful supplies of water struck in the artesian belt. We have seen that water flowing 26 or 28 miles through bore drains, evaporating as it proceeded until the flow ceased altogether. I was struck by the wonderful flow of water from a bore at Augathella. The overflow ran into the dry bed of a creek and simply ran to waste. The Government should give serious atten­tion to this question of national importance. They might also consider supplying 2-inch piping to bore owners at cost price. pay­ments to be extended over the life of the piping. I believe that if a system of that nature was put into operation, and the water s~u~ off when not in use and conveyed by p1pmg to troughs, a great saving would hA effected. Unless we solve this problem of water wastage in the far West the whole of that territorv will be without water in a very short period.

Mr. HIORDAN: Don't vou think if you shut the water off there would be a danger of the pipes' bursting?

Mr. NIMMO : I do not think there would be. but that is a matter for investigation by the experts. Nature has provided us with a huge storage of artesian and sub-artesian water, and it is our duty to conserve it in the interests of the people.

Mr. McLEAN (Bundaberg) [5.43 p.m.]: I ask the Minister if it is at all possible for him to do so, to grant subsidy loans to small farmers who wish to instal irrigation plants on their farms. If they were able tD carry out this work the production of fodder woul-d increase to such an extent that it would remove the need for the importation of fodder from the Southern States during drought periods. The irrigatimz plant in the Woongarra area adjacent to Bundaberg has proved very successful. The land in that

area is suitable for the production of lucerne and other fodders that we are now importing from the other States. At the sugar experi­ment station there they obtained 20 tons of lucerne hay to the 100 acres.

A loan of £250,000 was available for the installation of an irrigation scheme at Bundaberg, but unfortunately the farmers in the district turned down the scheme. Many farmers in that area are desirous of installing irrigation systems on their farms, but they are prevented from doing so by lack of finance. I suggc•'t to the Minister that he should grant to farmers who are desirous of installing irrigation plants subsidy-loans on the same basis as they are given to local authorities.

In the Bingera district. one of the biggest irrigation schemes in the State is in operation and I invite hon. members to visit that place and see what has been done by the progres­sive firm of Gibson and Howe<. Limited, who, aided by the Government, havP weired the river. To-day there are hundreds upon hundreds of acres under irrigation, and the productivity of the land has increased enor­mously. When I have taken visitors on a tour of inspection on that irrigation area I have seen sugar-cane stalks 26 feet in length. The c.c.s. has gone up to as high as 18. This land is a wonderful asset to the sugar industry, and there are other lands in the Woongarra area just as suitable. The farmers are to-day losing the full use of their lands because of lack of water. A subter­ranean stream flows beneath this land, and if the farmers received assistance from the Government they would be able to produce lucerne and manv of the other commodities for which Queer1sland is paying exorbitant prices in the .South.

I agree with the remarks of an hon. member opposite who said that there should be co-operation between the State and Commonwealth Governments on irrigation and here is an opportunity for them to collaborate to provide the nece,sary funds to enable these farmers to progress.

Mr. KA;\IE (East Toowoomba) [5.50 p.m.]: The hon. member for Oxley, rather uninten­tionally, I think, misread figures that appear in the Financial Statement. He said that £13,000 only had been allotted for irrigation in Queensland and then pro­ceeded to quote the figure of £1,000,000 allotted to local authorities. Hon. members must remember that that amount contains very large sums for irrigation and sewerage purposes in large cities and towns, and, therefore, should be considered when the Government's expenditure on· irrigation is being discussed. Certainly, the £13,000 quoted by the hon. member was allocated for a specified purpose, but the expenditure of local authorities on water and irrigation schemes in the large cities and towns must be regarded as being for general develop­ment of the same sort.

One cannot speak on this subject without recalling to mind the fact that perhaps next to the Stanley River Dam, the largest scheme for water supply in the State, is the Cooby Creek scheme at Toowoomba. The only thing that can be saiq against it is, that it was begun too late. There is a tendency for communities to put up with things as they are. People often lack vision, and when an attempt is made to do something constructive or developmental, say critically,

Mr. Kane.]

764 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

"\Ye don't need that now. Our popula· ,tion is too small. Bad times are upon us. Our rates are high. \Ve cannot afford lavish scheme>." Such criticism has been levelled against the Cooby Creek scheme, but the only criticism that can be made against it honestlv is that it was overdue. That can be eai~l eYen of the Stanley River Dam. At Cooby Creek the work on the super· structure has been somewhat delayed. The council had the misfortune to strike a porous rock where they expected to find a rock suitable for carrying the foundations of the arch. but it is estimated that the work on the superstructure will begin at the end of the year.

This scheme will supply water to Too­woomba for manv vears to come, but then another problem ·immediately arises. Such ''orks are always done behind time. For example. on the completion of the Sydney Harbour Bridge Dr. Bradfield remarked, "1\'ow let us bridge the harbour at the Heads." It is heartrending to see the effects of the present drought conditions on the once beautiful city of Toowoomba, whose beautiful gardens, lawns, and flowers once dc·crvedly held pride of place in the Commonwealth and were admired by all tourists. This is because in the past we haYP relied too much on sub-artesian water. As the hon. member for Oxley pointed out, we cannot rely on water that flows beneath the ground but must pin our faith to surface waters. and I have always supported the local authority in Toowoomba in the work at Cooby Creek. but I suggest that in co-operation with the Government they should undertake a scheme of bores through­out the town. Sub-artesian bores would bring the wa~er supply of the town to a level that would tide the people over the present period of famine. I believe that there are oceans of water flowing underneath the hills of Toowoomba that could be tapped and used until the Coobv Creek scheme is complete. When rain on the catchment area fills the dam it will be of invaluable service to the town of Toowoomba but I hope the authority concerned will r~cognise the need of co-operating with the Govern­ment. even to the extent of getting fresh subsidies for boring for sub-artesian water.

:'._fr. DEACON (Cunningharn) [5.55 p.m.]: Th1s Sub-Department of Irrigation and \Vater Supply is very expensive, and I doubt whether any of the schemes undertaken have proYed successful.

I do not see much hope of succ0ss for any of th<> schemes advocated in this Ch:tmber thi~ afternoon. The only schemes that have proved to be successful are the small schemes, where a man has nut down his own plant-a \Y01l or clam. yy~ cirs in rivers and creeks haYc not been successful anywhere. and are not likely to be successful for the simple reason that any weir across a creek has only a ,hort life, as the watercourse eventually lills up with silt. There is nothing else for it. There is no getaway, and every time a flood comes down the river it carries a certain amount of silt and it is only a matter of time till any weir ~ust be filled up. There is not much chance of. any permanent irriga­tiOn from that source. All the rivers and creeks we have at the present time in South Queensland on this side of the Range are silting up. There is not one on the othr:r side of the Range, and all the deep water holes we have there are silting up.

[Mr. Knne.

Lot us take the town of Warwick, for example. That town used to rely for its 1Yater supply on a cham of deep holes m .,, hi eh there was water to a depth of 30 feet The local authority put a weir in and raised the hei<>'ht of thP water by another 10 feet. At the l1resent t!me I do not think ther~ is 10 f0ct of water m the town reach, and War­wick is forced to rely on Connolly Dam for a water supply. That is j~st one example. It is inevitable that our nvers and creob must silt up. I do not refer to one river or crook but to all Queensland. Out in the West: over the Range, it is just the same, e'ccept where there is a sharp fall near. the Range. That is the on1v place where. nvers do not silt up. The s1lt nowa.day~ 1s ever w much greater, owing to cult!vatwn, than the amount carried in the days .wh':'n the countrv was all grass. To put wens m and expect· any great length of service from them is all nonsense.

No countrv has shDwn a great succe-\s from irrigation except where there are big ranges and rivers, and suitable natural storage to sins.

Mr. McLriN: What about India. where Sir Lcslie W ileon was at the head of things?

2'1Ir. DEACO:--J: Yes. where there are the Himala:-'a Ranges and perpetual snow and tremendous storage areas. We have no ranges here like those. \Vhat ha Ye we got? A narrow coastal strip. \Ye have no good rano-es or n1ountains in this ('Ountrv. Th0 hie-hest we have are the Alps, an'd I hey, in~ comparison with the ra~ges . in other countries are very smalL VICtona has not bAen su~cessful with irrigation schemes. <>xcept the smaller ones, and in Queenslo!'d we haYe nothing like the same regular ram­fall as Victoria to justify us in going in for such schemes.

The onlv places with heavy rainfalls are in the North, where irrigation is not so much needed. In the southern parts of the States where we have bigger rivers there are no suitable sites for the storage of large volumes of 11u,ter such as are required for irrigation. The scheme that was begun in the Thcodore area was only a small one. and although a considerable amount of money was spent it did not bring a great measure of success, certainly not enough to pay interest on the money. The people there made a living, but the cost to the State was enormous, and so it is not worth while going in for schemes like that if similar costs have to be incurr-ed. Small schemes where men put their own plants on the banks of creeks or rivers, or on wells, are successful so long as they do not attempt to serve too big an area. Encouragement may be given to irrigation of that sort, because those schemes can be successful. Therefore, I suggest the Govern· ment should eonfine their efforts to small one-man tchemes-or one •Or two men, as the case may he-where there is an adequate underground water supply, or enough water for pumping purposes. Many one-man plants have been successful in the Lockyer district at no cost to the State, because the owners have financed themselves. It would be worth the G.overnment's while embarking upon schemes of this kind, where they cannot be financed by private individuals, but it would be a great mistake to sink large sums of money, as we have done, in irrigation works that are not likely

Supply, [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 765

to gi,·e a reasonable return. In connection With the big schemes we should cut the loss am] concentrate on the smaller pro­posals. They are the only ones that arc worth while.

I should like some information o8ncerning the Estimates of the sub-department. For instance. there is a new appointment a designing engineer, at a salary of £900 'per .al1J1Ulll.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LANDS : He is a ,·ery capable man.

Mr. DEACO:.J: That may be so. The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LA!i'DS: One of

the best men in Australia.

Mr. DEACON : Possibly. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Not

"' possibly " ; it is so.

Mr. DEACON: The Minister says so, but " the most capable man in Australia " came to Queensland once beforCl with a wonderful reputation and wonderful references.

The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC LANDS: This gentlem u1 is a Qu<'enslander who has been practising in New South \Vales.

Mr. DEACON: We need not bring his capabilities into the question. I want to know what he is to do.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: To teach the voung- men so. that thev will become wha't he ~is to-clay-a good designer.

Mr. DEACON: Who taught him? The SECRETARY FOR Pl:BLIC LANDS: He

taught himself.

Mr. DEACOX: We are not likely to go in for any big irrigation worb. The Govern­ment haYe introduced a highly capable man to train ~·oung men to handle irrigation <whemf'c, that cannot be embarked upon. It is a sheer waste of monev. The Minister knows that "e cannot go in 'for big irrigation schemes. \Ye haYe not got the country or the water, or the possibility of getting it.

The SECRETARY FOR PeBLIC LANDS : The wb-departmcnt is handling £2,500,000 worth of work to-day.

Mr. DEACON: The greater part of which will be wasted.

Thf' SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Fancy a Country Party member condemning irrigation !

Mr. DEACON: What is the amount of monev that the Government have thrown a way' in the· Theodore area?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK : They are doing well up there now.

Mr. DEACO:!'J: Is the return from that area enough to pay interest on the expendi­ture on the scheme? Is the scheme itself now paying interest on the money expended ? EYen if the Government ,c]id not have to provide wages from the receipts received from that scheme, would it be paying interest on the outlay"

The SEcm~TARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : It is a national asset.

Mr. DEACON: The Minister can call it what he likes-a national asset or a national debt. The " d " is more suitable than the "'a."

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : I will take you for a trip up there and show you.

Mr. DEACON: I know where it is. I have been to Theodorc. I have examined the scheme itself, I have gone into the accounts, I have considered the costs, the possible return and the actual return, and I know just what the position is.

'I11C SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: Have vou been there since sheep and lamb raising ha vc been introduced?

Mr. DEACO:\i: Lambs can be raised on gTazing land without irrigation at all. Prob­ablv some of the men raising fat lambs are not" using irrigation. Lambs can be raised on natural grasses, and the lamb raiser at Theoclore necd not bother about irrigation. You can go over the whole of the Darling Downs where the rainfall is similar to that of the' Theodore area, and see lambs raised successfully.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLTl:RE AND STOCK: There are lambs and lambs.

Mr. DEACON: Doe'' the Secretarv for Agriculture and Stock suggest that lambs fed on an irrigated area are better than thoee raised on the natural grasses? Can ono pump water into them" It is not pos­sible. The feed g-rown by the aiel of irriga­tion is not a hit better for lamb raising than the natura! feed.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE A!i'D STOCK : Except that the lambs come on better.

Mr. DEACON: Thev do not. It might be possible to carry more lambs to the acre on irrivated lands, but they do not fatten any quicker, nor are they any better.

The CHAIR::\IA:t\ : Order !

Mr. DEACON: The Secretarv for Agri­culture and Stock ought to know that grass is often sweeter where the rainfall is not so good than grass on country where the rain­fall is much greater.

The SECRF.TARY FOR AGE:CTTLTURE AND SToCK : Lambs. to be raised succe>>fully, must receive no check while growing.

Mr. DEACON: Lambs fatten better on the Downs and further out, and can hold their own, so far as prices are concerned, with lambs from the Theodore area. But oven with all that thrown in the Theodore project does not pay interest on the cost.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Do you know any irrigation schemes that are a success?

The CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. DEACON: I have dealt sufficiently with that subject and I have answered both Ministers. (Laughter.)

Another matter that should receive the serious attention of the Committee is the diminution of flow from artesian bores. That is a very serious matter to the State, because such a large pastoral area is dependent on artesian water. Nothing else can replace it. \Vater storage from rainfall cannot be obtained, Much of the country in the western districts cannot be stocked if the artesian water fails. It has made it possible for much larger numbers of stock to be carried on some country, and for other country to be worked that otherwise could not be at all.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA!i'DS: You know the pastoral o.wner has some responsi­bility.

!llr. Deacon.]

766 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. DEACON: I am only speaking in a. general way ; I am not sa-ddling the Govern­ment with any responsibility.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK : What is the solution?

Mr. DEACON: The onlv solution is to run the water off in pipes instead of drains.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK : "". oul.d vou put that responsibility on the landholders?

Mr. DEACON: No, they could not do it; they would have to be assisted by the State. One man could not do it because the cost would be terrific. He would lose monev on it, but the State does not mind losing money. The State could help by buying the piping in large quantities at a cheaper rate than the individual landholder has to pay. The State could help by putting the money down and giving a large order.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK : You would save the evaporation?

Mr. DEACO~: There is not only evapora. tion. there is soakage.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AXD STOCK : Would you screw down your artificial bores so as to reduce the supply?

Mr. DEACON: I would certainlv do that. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE A;D STOCK :

You would re-duce the output?

Mr. DEACO~: Yes; but first of all you would have to ascertan whether there was any leakage from the bore underground. That has been prevented in some cases bv cementing the outside of the casing. ·

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK : Do yo_u know. that the screwing down of bores rs a prolific source of loss?

Mr. DEACON: In cases where the casin"' is just put down there must be a loss· th~ water rises up outside the casing-per:haps through porous strata. That loss is going on at the present time.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTl'RE AND STOCK : The point is, if you screw a bore down and diminish the flow, you might do the bore a tremendous amount of harm. That has hap­pened in bores that have been treated that way.

Mr. DEACON: The harm is done in cases where there is an escape of the water else­where; where it has been leakino- outside the casing through porous strata. b

r The SECRETARY FOR AGRICCULTURE AND STOCK : Nobody would pass a. bore that was leaking outside the casing.

Mr. DEACON: If there is no escape from the bore you are not likely to do any harm, because the pressure you put on it is no greater than thP natural pressure that was there when the. e_arth was lying on top of the water. The Mm1ster cannot convince me that if th~re is no leakage outside the casing, screwmg the bore down will decrease the pressure, because in the first place you have to bore through the earth to get to the water.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTGRE AND STOCK : No man in the West will willingly screw down bores because they know what has hap­pened to bores that have been screwed down.

Mr. MooRE: There arc a number of them who .do.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK · Very few. ·

[Mr. Deacon.

Mr. DEACON: It is only when there is a leakage that there is a loss in the flow. A good deal of the casing rusts.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICHLTURE AXD STOCK : The Blackall bore-ono of the best in the West-was screwed down and immediately developed case leakage.

Mr. DEACO~: Then there must have been a leakage.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC'CLTl'RE AND STOCK : There was no leakage till it was screwed down.

Mr. DEACON : The Minister says that there was no leakage. When the water was struck with the drill there was an immediate flow to the surface; the Minister says if you stop that flow the water goes away. Why did not the water go away before it was tapped? The thing is impossible.

Mr. RIORDAN: One is artificial and the other is natural.

Mr. DEACON: There is no difference. If You turn off the tap of a tank the water stays in the tank.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICl'LTURE A::-<D STOCK : Let me ask the hon. member a question. \Yhen vou were Secretary for Public Lands why did not you make them screw off the exces.;;; water?

::\fr. DEACON: The same leakage was not exi8ting.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICCLTURC AC\D STOCK : That is nonsense.

Mr. DEACON: The same shrinkage was not there. \Ye only heard of this leakage in odd instances.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRicrLn:RE AND STOCK: There is a report dated 1916 indicating leakage.

Mr. RIORDAN: The only shrinkage when the J\,Ioore Government were in power was in the public service.

Mr. DEACO~: Certainlv we did not shrink the hon. member and are not likely to do so. (Laughter.)

The CHAIRMAN : Order !

Mr. DEACON: I have not noticed any since he entered Parliament. However, that is nothing to do with this vote. What I have drawn attention to is certainly a very serious matter and full investigation should be made to ascertain whether there is a. moans of stopping the waste.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LANDS : Again there is an obligation on the pastoralists.

Mr. DEACON: It is no use saying, "lf they won't do it, I won't .do it and it doe& not matter a damn."

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Mr. DEACON: I bog your pardon, Mr.

Hanson. Mr. JESSOX : Have you ever seen an

artesian bore? Mr. DEACON: Yes. The vote under

discussion supplies the salaries of officers who, according to the Minister, cannot do anything because irrigation schemes are impo,sible; and if they are to handle town water supplies only there is not enough work for them. There is the ba<is for an argument in the question whether they are looking after the V\ aters of the country. They are provided for in this vote but why not put them on the artesian vote? There

Supply. [30 SEPTE~fBER.] Supply. 767.

cannot be enough work in the towns for such a large number of men.

The CHAIRMA~ : Order ! The hon. member has exhausted the time allowed him under the Standing Orders.

Mr. BRASSI""GT02'\ (Fortitude Tlalley) [7.20 p.m.]: I agree with the hon. members for Oxley and Cunningham that the diminu­tion of water supplies from our artesian bores is a very serious n1atter and merits the consideration of all sections of the com­munity. It is pleasing to hear hon. members opposite supporting in principle the control of our. water supplies, which they viciously and b1tterly opposed some yoars ago when a Labo_u~ _Government, fully alive to their respons1bd1t1es to the people and insisting on controlling the <;.ountry's water supply, introduced certain legislation for that pur­pose. _D1d not hon. members opposite then use th1s Assembly as a means of stirring up public . opposition to Labour's legisla­tion and d1d they not go out in the country and do theu be,t to defeat that which was ~ound in principle and designed in the mterests of the people? It is indeed very refreshing to know that our opponents reahse that at least Labour's policy in regard to water control and conservation is sound and that they are now giving us their support.

The artesian water supplv is nature's gift to a belt of arid country that comprises almost the whole of the western part of the State. \Vhen drought conditions prevail and the land is deprived of the benefits of rainfall. nature g-ives compensation by pro­viding a splendid supply of subterranean water. Probably the immense value of this supply is not recognised by persons who have not lived in the artesian basin. The supply has made the wool industrv possible -most important of all the industries of Australia.

The hon. member for Oxley referred to the fact that the bores are giving out that they are not giving the same supply 'as at first. The diminution of supply may be accounted for to a large extent by the fact that the bore is worn out because of usage over a long period. The c.asing is corroded and consequently leaks, allowing a large quantity of water that originally came to the surface to escape. I think that con­dusion is borne out by the fact that it is on record that an existing bore gave out, and when a new bore was put down in close proximity to it, the flow obtained was as good as the flow of the original bore.

Mr. MOORE: I have seen that in a number of instances.

Mr. BRASSI;'{GTON: Yes, and I have seen it. too. Many vears ago I had to earn my living working On artesian bore plants, and I notic'"d on a number of occasions that when new bores were put down the flows were as good as those from the old bores. I think that is a reply to the g·eneral con­tention of the hon. member for Oxlev that our artesian supply is rapidly giving out.

The hon. members for Oxley and Cunning­ham certainly made a very important point as to the need for conserving this artesian water, supply after it has been brought to the surfac·e. Recently I had the pleasure of visiting the town of Quilpie with the Secre­tar~· for Health and Home Affairs, and at that plac,· we noticed a bore that was giving an enormous flow of water daily. The

thcught struck me as I watched this water leaving· the bore head into drains and flowing away mile after mile to arid country that probably \VC were allowing a large propor­tion of that ,,aluable water to evaporate or soak awav and so be lost for all time to th" people and stock that might have occasion to use it. On this point the Minister might make further investigation to see if there is any way by which water can be cmlsCn0d after it leaves the bore head. I think if something can be evolved in this direction we shall have gone a long way towards a satisfactorv solution of what might be termed a serious problem.

Mr. MooRE: \Vhat was the flow from that bore?

Mr. BRASSI2'\GTON : About 750,000 gallons a day. An obvious fact is that only a small part of the water coming out of the bore is actually used by the stock for drinking- purposes. It is saf8 to assume, therefore, that enormous wastage occurs by allowing this water to run through miles of drains. I have seen examples in the far West where bore drains have been allowed to get into a state of disrepair, and a good deal of useful water has overflowed and drained for hundreds of yards in all direc­tions. This is another example of a sheer waste. I do not profess to be an expert on the question of conserving and controlling this water, but probably we could get results by introducing a s.\ stem of controlling th·~ supply at the bore head.

Much has been said about screwing bores down. Admittedly. if you attempt suddenly to stop the flow of water from a bore by screwing down the valve it follows that the water must find an outlet somewhere and nrv often it 5nds that outlet through the casing, and thus the bore is ruined, and becom8,; a liability instead of an asset to th8 property, or if it happens to be a Govern­ment bore to the Government. The bore becomes useless, and money has to be expended in the sinking of a new hole. That phase of the question might be investigated, and probably some mechanical apparatus might be evolved whereby the effects of that pressure could be neutralised and the water controlled without harmful results to th8 bore.

The hon. member for Cunningham raised an interesting theory when he suggested tha~ the use of pipes might reduce the loss of water. I believe that as the years go by some method of reducing loss will be intro­duced. but with regard to costs I agree with the Minister. If it is necessary to con­serve water by the use of pipes-properly constructed pipes-it naturally follows that the persons who are enjoying the greatest benefits should subscribe part of the cost. The basic truth that the cost must be borne by those who benefit must be applied. Those who own the land are the ones who must. save in the long run. The greater part of the cost must be met by thPm, but the Government should assist. The Government could help by carrying out a thorough investigation and lending htiaHcial aid if possible.

This is not altogether a question for th) consideration of the State Go\'ernment alone. On the broa-d questions of water conservation, irrigation and fodder conservation, we should look at the problem from a national point of view. If we are agreed that the ravages of drought affect the people in all the States

1Y1 r. Brassington.l

768 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

and therefore its solution is a national one, we can safely argue that the problem should be tackled in a national way. That is to &ay, there should be a national survey and if we are agreed on the policy to be pursued that policy should be implemented by the National Government in co-operation with the States. I have no desire to labour this point beyond emphasising that it is a matter for the consideration of all Governments and if as experts tell us this water supply will be exhausted in fifty years we may well ask, " What is Australia going to substitute for the artesian water, and how are we going to carry on the great pastoral industry which depends to a very great extent upon the water from these bores? " The problem is grave enough to merit the attention of the Federal Government or at least to justify a demand that there shall be co-operation between the Federal and State Governments in dealing with the matter. Every effort will have to be made to conserve this natural heritage as long as possible.

I listened with interest to the suggestion by the hon. member for Maranoa that we should consider the possibility of locking our western rivers with the object of con­serving water. I also listened to the remark, of the hon. member for Cunningham and othPr hon. members opposite who have said that the proposal is more or less impractic­able. None of us in this Chamber can claim to be experts on this subject, but at least we can sugg<"·.t what must surely be a move in the right direction by asking for an investi­gation into the possibilities of locking these western rivers so that it may be determined whether locking them is feasible or not. I have in mind the Balonne River mentioned by the hon. member for Maranoa, which is a very fine waterway as western rivers go. For a long stretch that river has a rock bottom and if a fair-sized weir was con­structed across the river at the town of St. George many millions of gallons of water would be conserved annually for use by the people in the district. The district has unlimited possibilities in the production of fruit and other crops. particularly wheat. When I was last in that district with the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs a public-spirited citizen asked us to consider a proposal for wheatgrowing in that area. Wheat was grown years ago in the south­western parts of the State.

Mr. MAHER: I have seen wheat grown near W ooroorooka, south of Cunnamulla.

Mr. BRASSINGTON: There is no doubt abont the fertility of the soil. It possesses all the chemical ingredients necessary for the production of wheat, hut of course the real problem is moisture and the difficulties associated with it. There is room for investi­gation into the possibilities of locking these rivers and in the Balonne I believe we can conserve millions of gallons of water annually which to-day are allowed to run to waste and become lost. I venture the opinion that the problems associated with the early settle­ment of the dry areas in certain parts of the United States of America were similar to those that beset some of the settlers in onr own State, but they were overcome in America and to-day those dry areas are giv­ing splendid returns to the inhabitants. If these things are capable of accomplishment in other countries it is more than a possi­bility that they will be accomplished in this

[Mr. Brassington.

State. I hope the Minister will have the pleasure . of inst_itutin!j" investiga~ions i?to points raised durmg this debate with a vieW to solving some of the problems raised.

The work of this sub-department has been excellent. It has achieved a great amo~nt. of crood We mnst concede that its activities tend. towards greater development, a greater return to the people, and a greater degree of prosperity.

As I said in this Chamber early in the session, although we have acoomplished much there is a great deal yet to be done. If it was fonnd possible to lock some of our \Vestern rivers to conserve water it would be possible to irrigate the rich flats on their banks. Lucerne conld be grown. This would be a step towards fodder conserva­tion. These problems may not be solved for some years, but their solution are not remote and it is within the realms of possibility that the high hopes expresse:d during this discussion will be realjsed m our time.

Another factor in production in Western Queensland is the possibility of developing the citrus fruit industry. Citrus fruits, second to none in Australia or overseas, are grown in the West to-dav. There are difficulties associated with their production on a large scale hut the dav will come when that part of th'e State will supply the bulk of the citrus fruit supply in this and other States.

I commend the sub-department on its g-eneral policy and its activitie" . reg~rding the S!anlev River Dam. This IS an important i,ational work, and when con­structed will be Qne of the big-gest in the Commonwealth. It will confer a great benefit on the cities of Brisbane and Ipswich, in addition to affording considerable pro­tection from !he damaging results of floods \Ve were impressed last year by the acute shortage in our water supp!Y· ?'he preser:t dry period causes ns to visualise a po~st­bilitv that the water supply of the mty may· again be rationed. I am sure that the citizens apprecia.te the actio_n of the. GoverJ?-­ment in not onlv guardmg agamst this possil.lility, but of ensuring an unlimited supply of potable water for them for many vcars to come. 'fbey will not blame the Government f.o.r putting into effect such a sound, progressive policy.

Another departmental activity relates to work that seeks to prevent floods of the low­lvincr areas of Brisbane. I must step very gin;crly on this subject, M:·. Hanson! Q~cause I recognise I am exceedmg my hn:Its on this vole. A great deal of work IS m pro­gress along _the ~risbane Riv-er, in wi?em':'g and deepemng It, as well as protectmg Its shores.

The CHAIRMAN : Order !

Mr. BRASSINGTON : I thought I might be overstepping the mark.

'l'he CHAIRMAN : The hon. member onrstepped it long ago.

Mr. BRASSINGTON: I hope to have the opportunity of speaking on that matter when the 'appropriate vote is before the ·· Com­mittee.

Mr. MAHER: That is very doubtful.

Mr. BRASSINGTON : If not this year, then next year.

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 769

In conclu,ivn, I compliment the Minister and his officers on the signal success of their achievements during the last twelve months. Their watchword in this great national work is evidently progress. I trust that the activities of this important department will not be restricted, and as its work proceeda it will meet with the commendation of every hon. member and the public.

:Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) [7.42 p.m.]: There is no doubt the hon. member for Fortitude V alley has presented rather a dazzling picture of water .conservation by weirs and other means; and if all his sug­gestions were carried into effect they would go a long way towards solving our problems of water conservation. But the great obstacle between us and the picture painted by the hon. member is the cost that ·apparently would be imposed bv the Crown on the local governing bodies and the limited number of farmers who might benefit. It must be obvious to hon. members that the local auth­orities or the farmers could not possibl v bear the cost entailed. Until the Government are prepared to regard water conservation on broad national lines we shall never make any headway with it at all.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : The hon. member who just resumed his seat mggested that the Commonwealth might help.

Mr. MAHER: We are getting pretty sick and tired of hearing hon. members opposite 'ay "The Commonwealth should do this," or "The Commonwealth should do that." After all, the Commonwealth has its own sphere of activities, as the Minister well knows. The phrase has become a little nauseating. Hon. members opposite too often refuse to accept !heir own responsibility, and wish to place It on the Commonwealth. Let us face up to our responsibility in this matter. If the Commonwealth is prepared to make money aYailable for the purpose of water conserva­tion, well and good; but, after all. it is a State work.

Mr. T. L. WrLLIA:IIS: It is a national work.

Mr. ~iAHER: The State is the nation. \Vhen I use the term " national " I do not mean it is necessarily a Commonwealth matter. It is a term that covers the whole governmental field. Commonwealth or State, As we are immediately concerned with the development of our State, and water con­servation is prjmarily a State job, I do not see that anythmg can be gained by endea­vouring to throw the responsibility on the Commonwealth. The State must be prepared to accept the greater part of the cost involved in these schemes if headway is to be made.

I can as'mre the Minister it is quite useless to maintain engineers and other staffs in the Sub-Department of Water Supply and Irriga­tion if he expects that major schemes of water conservation are going to be paid for by the comparatively few people who would use them. We shall never develop irrigation on a large scale if that is going to be the attitude of the Government. Here we have a State where nature has helped us in many ways to provide water. It is our duty to discover such parts of Queensland as lend themselves to big schemes of water conserva­tion, and it is the duty of the State to under­take those schemes. Water is a vital thing in a State like Queensland, where we have a

1937-2 B

hot climate ranging from subtropical to tropical and evaporation is great.

Year by year the problem becomes increas­ingly difficult. Hon. members have heard me talk of the stagnation in the sheep popula­tion of the State; and I submit that one of the factors responsible is the lack of adequate water supplies. We have enormous areas of country that carries a good body of grass, but water is lacking, so it is evident that we need not only major schemes, but also minor schemes of water conservation. \Yith the whole problem of water supply is very defin­itely bound up the future development and success of our State. This is one of the most important votes that come up for the consideration of Parliament. I hope hon. members opposite may be able to visualise our needs.

The Minister and also the Premier have shown an interest in schemes to use the Lockyer Creek in my electorate for irriga­tion purposes. I confess I was surprised at one of the recommendations made in regard to it, It appears from the report on the scheme that no site exists for a. high storage dam. That very definite statement made in the report by the engineers who investigated it has been challenged by some of the farmers in the Gatton district. I under­stand that the Minister is to be asked to have that phase of the matter investigated further.. But apart from that, the engineers recommended a series of sixteen weirs on the creek between Helidon and Lowood. I had the idea that the farmers in that area would be served by the weirs, and I suggested that when discussing this vote last year. The cost is estimated at £132 000 and whereas that of course is a. barrier to the scheme, it is not the real cause of its rejection. Experienced and intelligent farmers on the Lockyer claim that thev would not have weirs in the Lockyer "Creek if the Government could make available the whole sum of £132,000 gratis. They believe that weiring would not onlv cause the silting up of the streams but des-troy its banks. Long experience on that creek has taught them that lesson and the;: point out that the weir at the Gatton College is not altogether a success. Those who most strongly supported some scheme of water conservation and who instigated the request to the <;::overnme~t for an inve~ti­gation are defimtely host1le to the we1nng of Lockyer Creek. This disposes of the most important recommendatiOn made by the departmental engineers.

Assuming that no site for a high storage dam exists there remains a third very important 'field of inyestigation-:under­ground supply. The engmeer Teportmg on this scheme stated in his final recommenda­tion-

" The determination of the extent of the ground water streams is a matter which needs further investigation, whilot trial surveys and borings are necessary to determine the exact location and cost of the individual weirs."

The water for irrigation on Laidley Creek is obtained from wells. Good water is got at shallow depths of 30 to 35 feet, and each farmer provides his own source of supply. The farmers are making a great success of it too. Along some of the creeks round datton the water is highly mineralised and much useful work could be done in deter­mining whether the undergTound water is

Mr.Maher.]

770 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

suitable for irrigation. Underground water could be investigated in some detail with profit to the farming community of the State.

I do not advocate this for the area I repre­sent in particular, but for all the farming districts adjacent to such streams. There are enormous reservoirs of water under­ground and the experience of those who draw on these supplies for some years is that they are undiminished, apparently being replenished by the floods that occur from time to time.

To give an idea of what is being done on a rather more elaborate and costly basis than the average farmer would be prepared to contemplate, I quote a letter from Mr. J. M. Newman, of Caboolture. He carries out irrigation work there from underground vores sunk to shallow depths. He states-

" I bored across the alluvial flat, qonstituting the bank of the local (tidal) river, a series of holes to bedrock at intervals of a chain. These holes were four inches in diameter and I inserted a liner of casing made by the local plumber from stovepipe. which was perforated with holes of one-sixteenth of an inch in diameter.

" I tested each of these holes with a portable pump and I found I could draw off about 1.000 gallons an hour from each of them. These hole·, were about 35 feet deep, the sand and gravel about 20 feet deep, the water coming in at about 20 feet from the surface. I sampled the sand and gra Ye! in 2-foot lengths and made a screen analysis of each s.ample in order to find out the percentage of gravel retained on screens of 20, 60, and 100 mesh, linear. This information was 5ent to Rethune Proprietary Limited, of 422 Collins street, Melbourne, who are agents for Johnson screens-made in Cali­fornia-and for Pomona turbine pumps. They sent along a J ohnson screnn to fit into 12-inch casing as well as sufficient 12-inch casing to reach bottom (35 feet), and I bored a hole to take this rasing and. continued the hole into the sand­stone bottom for 10 feet. A 10-inch sump. fitted on the end of the screen, was thPn lowered to bottom inside the 12-inch casing on a detachable rope, with a conical lead joint at the top of the screen, which was expanded by a wooden block to fit the casing. The bottom section of this was then raised, leaving the cane! and gravel in contact with the screen. The hole was then pumped with a sand pump until most of the available <;and 'va:;; removed, after which it was surged and pumped alternatively until no more cane! could be obtained. This occupied about three clays, and some 3 cubic yards of sand was remoYed, leav­ing a large area of clean gravel, filled w1th water, around the screen. A nine­stage Pomona pump was then inserted inside the casing, reaching to the bottom of the sump. This was then connected to my Fordson tractor and the water numpecl through a Nunan spray system at the rate of 12,000 gallons per hour continuously without exhausting the sup­nly. \Ve have used up to sixty-four ••prays at a time, which gives 2 inches of water every two hours to about .6 of an acre.

[Mr. Maher.

"The sprays have to be removed every two hours or so, except at night, when the pump is left running without atten­tion until the tractor has exhausted the kerosene. The cost of fuel comes out at about 1s. per hour.

" In my opinion this method of develop­ing wells and erecting pumps could be applied to any alluvial river flat. 'I'he complete cost of boring, supplying the casing, screen, and Pomona pump and 10 chains of ·distribution pipe is in the neighbourhood of £720."

Mr. DoNNELLY: How long was he running that pump?

Mr. MAHER : About three months. Mr. DoNNELLY: On a sand bottom? Mr. YIAHER : In a gravel bed. He surged

out the sand and left a clean bed of gravel. There is no impediment to the free flow of the water as there would be if the sand were there. There is a magnificent supply of water.

Mr. DONNELLY: That is interesting. Mr. MAHER: I quoted that letter in full

so that it would appear in " Hansard " and be available to students of the subject of conservation of water from underground sources. The cost of £720 is a steadier for the average man.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Too heavy for the average man.

Mr. MAHER : Yes. but to the man who is going to specialise in irrigation work and who has the suitable soil and other condi­tions, and understands the job, I Yenture to sav that the results would be well worth the cost. Mr. Newman has adopted methods that have been thorough and efficient. l suggest to the Minister that he send one of his engineers to Caboolture to look at the scbemc and make a report as to whether there is any way by which a scheme of that kind could be developed in other areas of the State at less cost. There are enormous rescrYoirs of water underground, not only east of the Main Range, but we·'t of it. too­particularly on creek frontages. \Y c all know the sub-artesian and artesian belt, but I am speaking more particularly of water avail­able along the stream banks and flats, which is replenished through underground strata from floods. It is to exploit this possibility in many areas that I make the suggestion.

When I spoke at the gathering at Gatton last Saturday I made it clear to the 3r·:: farmers assembled to discuss irrigation prob­lems that in view of the report and the fact that there was no chance of a high-storage system, and that as they rejected the iclea of weirs in the Lockyer Creek special con­sideration should be given to that phase of the report which dealt with underground supplies. I think this is something that has not been fully investigated and is not properly understood so far bv the Sub­Department of Irrigation and Water Supply. There is room for special investigation by competent officers, and they could not do better than begin by visiting Mr. Newman's farm at Caboolture to see what he has accomplished there in obtaining a good suppl~· of water by the means that he has adopted.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICCLTCRE A~D STOCK: He has unlimited capital to experiment with.

Mr. MAHER : He says that the scheme has cost him £720. I realise that that is

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 771

beyond the capacity of the average farmer who wishes to irrig<lte his land.

:Mr. ::\IoORE: Similar sums were spent on Inkerman.

The SEcRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : Some of the Burdekin farmers have spent more than that.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The trouble is: how many farmers could con­tinue to draw on that source of supply?

::\1r. :YIAHER: Those are the things that require inYestigation and the Minister could profitably use his officers on such an inquiry so as to giYe the farmers <lnd even Parlia· ment some guidance in the matter. If a vi:;;it \Vaf' paid to Mr. Ncwman's farm, an officer of the department might be able to eYolYe a cheaper way of getting the same results. He would see the principles that :\fr. ::\'ewman has followed as the result of his specialised knowledge as an engineer in tin dredging in the Malay States and else­'"here. That knowledge is available to the State. If an officer is sent to the farm to go into the matter with Mr. Newman, the officer might discoYer that Mr. Newm<ln had spent more than was necessary to obtain these results and he might be able to lay down similar principleo. at a cheaper cost. That is wh' I sav that it is well worth the GoYernment's while looking into the matter and also looking into the g-ener<ll problem of underground water supply. Even while we talk the farmers in many districts are taking- advantage of underground supplies, but perhaps by cruder methods, where they have to contend with sand that is restricting the flow of water. If we can give them some guide and help them to cle.an out their wells by the use of sand pumps in the way that Mr. Newman has done and so give them a freer or less restricted flow. we may accomplish something big for the State.

That is one phase of irrigation that I should like to bring under the notice of the Minister and hon. members of the Chamber. There are other phases, but time will not permit my going into them now. I hope that in any big irrigation scheme the Government "-ill take into account the neces­sity for looking at it from the angle of the State's assuming the major cost, because nothing will be done if they expect the local authority to assume the responsibility for the cost of these big irrigation schemes.

:\fr. GLEDSO:-:r (Ipstcich) [8_5 p.m.}: This vote deals with a Yery import<lnt matter. I overheard some hon. members say that there has been a lot of conversation on water, but conYerBation on water is not going to do very much to bring about the conservation of >vater unless we can get the parties con­cerned to agree to a basis on which it can be carried out. There are two or three wat<cr schemes in the Ipswich district, one of which. the Lockyer scheme, has been men­tioned by tl1E' Leader of the Opposition. The "ub-clepartment had a complete sur,ey made extending eastward from the range for a comiderable distance. A report was sub­mitted <lnd a meeting- was convened in the oreas concerned to deal with the matter. This report of the meeting appeared in the Press-

" ::\ir. E. Stevens (Junction View L.P.A.) said he would like to draw the attention of the meeting that a survey and inspection of the top end of Black

Fellow's Creek was to be made, but this had not been done; when the surveyor w<ls in the area he found he had a map of the Mount \Vhitestone section, conse­quently no tape was stretched or peg driven."

That sets out the position. Mr. Stm-ens spoke on behalf nf nearly all the peophe \\ha asked for this work to be done. The report goes on to sh~w tha~ the :neetin.g carried certain resolutiOns With which tlus Committee should be acquainted. These are lhe resolutions that were carried-

" That the scheme as far as the erec­tion of weirs is concerned be rejected. as it was not considered that this method of water conservation would be advis­able."

" That this representative meeting of farmers from the Lockver and surround­ing districts urge the State Government to approach the Federal Governme:1~ with "' view to. securing gr,~nts to aid water conservatiOn sQhemes.

The Leader of the Opposition (who was present at the meeting) said that all this talk about co-operation between the Federal and State Governments, in such matters was nauseating as it was the business of the State Gov~rnment. Those resolutions were carried bv his own constituents, and in his presence. They urged the State· Government to get in touch with the Federal Government to co-operate with the State GoYernment in schemes of water conserva­tion.

We heard from the Leader of the Oppoci­tion about the resolutions carried at thi& meetino- attended bv 300 farmers. and it is just ~as well that {read to the C· mmitte<> the full text of them all. It was also resolved-

" That this representative meeting· of farmers from the Loekver and surround­ing districts. urge the State Government to approach the Feder01l Government with a view to securing grants to aiel water conservation schen1os fro1n moneys received through duties and taxes en oil and petrol, on similar lines to those· adopted in making grants for road con struction purposes thwugh the Main Roads Commission : that the State Government be urged to make generous subsidies available from the Unemploy· ment Relief Fund for the establishment of 'vater con8-ervation schemes, as such schemes when effectivelv established would be of a reproductive nature and would tend to lessen unemployment. Also that water conservation schemes would go a long wa:v to prevent he a YY losses caused through droughts."

The meeting delegated tbe Tarnmpa Shire· Council to convev these resolutions to the State Government.

On reading the report of this meeting one learns just what the attitude of the farmers is. It seems that support for the scheme depends on the situation of each­man's property, how it would be af!'ected. and whether he has enough water m the creek to carry on an individual system of irrigation. and not caring what happens to the other fellow. Immediately there is anv curtailment of the use of this water an" agitation ensues for some scheme of con­>crvation of water. I am of opinion that

Mr. Gledson.l

772 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

we must deal with this question by building a number of weirs instead of one big weir to conserve the water in one place alone, end then allowing it to irrigate the pro­Jl<'rties below. Most of the farmers are in agrE>ement that a dam or a reservoir be made to hold water provided it is al;ove their p1·operties (in order that they will get ·upplies of water) and that their properties "re not interfered with. That is the whole difficulty in the matter. The same objection nrist;s in almost eYery centre. When sug­gesbons were m"de that a survev be made of the Fassifern district we heard the same objection: "If you do this it will take a way some ,of our property. We shall not be able to use that part of our property down rn the hanks of the river or creek. We don't want it. vVe are quite willing it should be above us on some other person's property." I am firmly of the opinion that the Government will have to take power TD deal with this matter. All the land tl1at would be benefited bv the smaller schemes will have to be

0

resumed and reallotted to those who will use it. It would not be rig-ht for the Government to spend millions of pounds in conserving water and allow the people who held large tracts of adiacent land to get the brnPfit of it with­out pa;:ing for it.

I still hold the opinion I expressed when <liscussing- this vote last vear and the vear hefor<'. that it is in the interests of

0

the farmers to build small weirs and allow them the use of that water, they providing their own irrigation plants. The weirs could be provided at a small cost. It is no use going in for a large scheme that would saddle the farmer with such an expense that he could not make a profit on his product.

:VIr. PLcNKETT: \Vhy should vou make the farmer responsible? "

:VIr. GLEDSON: I say we shoul-d not make the farmer responsible. I contend that we :-hould net f'arrv ont a ·water-conservation >cheme that wo1;ld supply a greater area of land than is required by the farmer to make a living on. Small weirs would supply the water reqUirements of the farmer.

I ha.ve had the opportunity of travelling m-er the ~reater portion of Queensland, and I know that years ago the depletion in our artesian water was pointed out by depart­mental of?cers. The leakagP of sub-artesian and artesian water can be readilv understood "'hen we realise that it is all the result of soakage. I shall risk offending the Leader ?f the Opposition by saying that we should nave the co-operation of the Commonwe"lth Government in having a proper aerial con­tour survey of the centre of Australia with , Yicw to making a canal from the ~orth

of Australia to the centre, thus bringing the water to the centre of Australia.

:\Ir. :VIAHER: Bring the sea water in?

:\Ir. GLEDSON: Yes-right to the centre of Australia.

:VIr. :VLmER: \Yhat do vou think that woul-d produce?

0

:Vlr. GLEDSON: I think that would replenish our sub-artesian and artesian water. There is no question about it. A report has \·een. made. on this matter by one of the leadmg engmeers of the world, who definitely stated that that is the only way in \vhich we could replenish our underground supply Df water. If any hon. member cares to go

[Mr. Gledson.

out to the central part of Australia he will find marine fossils. The whole of the centre of Australia was at one time a big inland sea, and all our rivers used to run from the coast inland. 'I'here is evidence to show that a river ran through Cunningham's Gap inland to the centre of Australia. Owing to vol­canic disturbances the Toowoomba Range was lifted 4,000 feet above sea level. The Little Liverpool Range that comes in below Laidley dropped 2,000 feet in that volcanic disturb­ance. A visiting engineer made a very interesting report on this matter, giving it as his opinion that the replenishment of the artesian and sub-artesian bores could be effected by this huge canal through the middle of the continent, and saying that it was feasible. The construction of this huge canal could onlv be undertaken with the ~o-operation of the Commonwealth Govern­ment. It would provide work for many of our unemployed.

We cannot always depend on our surface waters, which are replenished by the rain­fall. In the last thirty years there has been an annual decrease in the rainfall, and con­sequently we must look to other means to renew our water supply. The very source of Australia's wealth-wool-is in jeopardy unless a continuity of water supply in the western and central parts of the continent is ensured. Something must be done in this direction sooner or later. and the sooner the better.

The report I refer to puts ten years as the probable time for the completion of the canal, and thP money expended on it would overcome much of the difficulties from which we suffer, and which are not peculiar to Queensland, but apply to New South \Vales. Victoria, and South Australia also. Mv object in making this suggestion for the replenishment of the underground water supply of Queensland is to draw attention to the fact that it can be don<' only with the co-operation of the Commonwealth Govern­ment. to which we are entitled.

The Sub-Department of Irrigation and \Vater Supply is to be commended for its work. Its officers have made a report in connection with the Lockyer district, and no doubt will make reports on other districts in the future. Something will have to be done to enable control to be exercised, not only of the water, but of the lands in the vicinity thereof, in order that they shall be used to the best purpose.

In im-estigation of water conservation in the western areas consideration must be given to the nature of the soil. At flood periods the rivers in the \V est do not confine themselves to one channel but spread over miles of country, and the expert must give consideration to the question whether the soil will hold the water if it is blocked by a dam. The dams may pro,·e quite use­less for the storage of water. The difficulty experienced in water conservation from the earliest days of settlement in the \Vest was not in the constructing of dams, but in the retention of the water in them owing to percolation and evaporation.

Yrr. DONC\IELLY (TVynnum) [8.24 p.m.]: I listened with great interest to the speech delivered by the Leader of the Opposition on sub-artesian bores. This is of great moment in my electorate, where people are putting down bores only to find that they sand-up at the bottom and the water will not flow. Some assistance might be given to

Supply. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 773

·,;pJtlcr,; in this area in the matter. The Leader of the Opposition says that if the sand is cleared awav gravel is left behind and the water will flow.

Mr. ~IAHER: What is the depth of the bore you are referring to?

Mr. DOK::'-IELLY: Sixty or 70 feet. Mr. MAHER: What are they using the

·water for'?

Mr. DOXJ\"ELL Y: Really for the irriga­tion of small farms and gardens. The area

·e'l:tends from Wynnum over to Rochdale. It i, sandy country and there seems to be an underground river. When bores are put down there is a supply of water for a while and then suddenly it stops.

Mr. PLUNKETT: Checked by the sand.

Mr. DOJ'\::'-!ELLY: Yes. I think this is :a matter that should be brought before the notice of the Minister. I personally do not know very much auout it. Irrigation is not .a party concern, but a matter on which the Opposition and the GoYernment might join to give the farmer in anv electorate what­,eYcr assistance can be giv8n.

I have se on a good deal of irrigation throughout Queensland. I have seen sub­artesian and artesian bores running to waste in the Charleville and Cunnamulla dis­tricts. I have watched the flow of a Charle­vi lie bore diminish year by year. In the Cunnamulla and 1\·allumbilla areas the same thing happens. I was born and bred in the \Ycst., and it would do some of our town llll'lllbcrs good to go out there and see what i' happening. Landholders who have bores 'ccm to pay no attention to the need for -c·om.crvation of the water. It is simply allcAed to flow to waste over the land, ancl I ll ve known instances where it has withered the graso. and in eome instances the soil has beLJl injured by the sodium contained in it.

I have heard hon. members opposite com­plain of the ex pen ,cs incurred by Ministers in going oYerscas to gain knowledge that will help them to serve this country, but I suggest to hon. members opposite and to hon. members on this side too, that they should spend some money to see their own Mtatc anc! thus be in a position to give ad, ice as to how to develop it. I want to '' o this country developed and I am satis­~cd that water conservation will play a very Important part m that work. At the present moment almost all the rain that falls on the ranges flo">.-s to the sea and verv little is cone •?n-ed. If a proper scheme- of water com,ervation was carried out, not by the constructron of dams, but by buildine: ~uQccssive \veirs across riYers, it would be of c'n;,rmous advantage not only to the pastoral l!lc:ustry but probably to the agricultural mdustry too. In the south-west of Queens­lane! there are large areas of beautiful black '·oil capable of prodncing almost anv­thing. Most of ne know the wonderful pro­ductivity of a Chinaman's garden; it ;, usually due to the plentiful use of water on black soil flats. If water was conserved in rivers and used to irrigate the black soil "coLmtry, what a wonderful return there would .be, and what splendid revenue there would be for the Government !

I do not w.mt to dwell at length on what has been clone in other countries but con­eider for a moment the achiev~ments of man in the Egyptian desert. The flood wnters coming down the Nile from Lake

Chad are dammed and spread their heavy body of silt across the sandy desert, con­verting it into wonderfully fertile tracts of farm land so that they are amongst the most productive in the world. Why cannot our inland streams be locked and the water used to increase our production? I do not possess the technical knowledge to explain how the wonderful transformation has been brought about in Egypt, but in this country we have beautiful fertile soil and we have the rivers. Whv not use them? I am satis­fied that irrigation is going to be the salva­tion of this country, but the question of providing the funds will have to be decidE'd by the Government. I am satisfied that when they tackle the problem they will tackle it in such a wav that even hon. members opposite will n'Ot quibble at the expenditure. As I have said before this should not be a party matter ; it ;hould be considered as one of national importance_ 'When we get to work, as we hope to do after the 23rd October next. money will be provided and we shall place before the people a scheme that has never been equalled.

Mr. M'CLLER (Fa.~sitern) [8.36 p.m.]: I reg-ard the question under discussion as one of the most important brought before this Chamber during the present session. The man who does not advocate some form of irrigation knows nothing about its beneficial results. During the last few years I have become an ardent supporter of irrigation. I admit that previously to that I was very scPptical as to its results. I compliment the Minister on sending overseas the Engineer in Charge of the Sub-Department of Irriga­tion and \Vater Supply to make exhaustive investigations concerning irrigation. I have a very high regard for the work of 1\Tr. Parkinson. It would do all of us good to have a conversation with him, as he impart.-. to everyone a good deal of valuable infor­mation. I have been kec·nlv interested in his survev of the artesian and sub-artesian supplies "of water. The great diminution that has taken place in those supplies is aJarming. How they are replenished is beyond the ken of the average man. Then is one school of thought that claims that these artesian waters arc replenished from thrc sea. Another claims that thev are replenished from the flow of our Inland river,, Those questions a·equirc much fmther investigation.

Recentlv the Secretarv for Agriculture and Stork Yisited the district I represent in reference to the proposed Mount Edwards irrjgation scherre. My views on irrigation are not parochial. I am not concerned as to the di,trict the Government may select m \Yhich to construct dams, but it is adyisable that irrigation works be constructed in a district adjacent to the city-our chief market.

The hon. member for Ipswich made some re-ference to a conference that took place last Saturday at Gatton, and claimed thal> the farmers, after duo consideration, turned down the proposal that was made. Before criticising their action a close study of the proposal is necessary. The proposal was turned down because the farmers felt they could not undertake the financial responsi­bilities entailed in it. It was disclosed that the scheme would place a charge on all bene­fited lands of about £11 an acre. That being

Mr. Muller.]

774 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

m we can readily understand why the pro­po,al was turned down.

The.re is a grav!" dou?t about the efficacy of weirs. The engmeer m charge of this sub­department is of opinion that a greater ser­VIce .at less C?st could be provided by build­mg the"e weirs over our coastal rivers and creeks. A number of us who have had the praPtical experience are of the opinion that weirs would cause the watercourse to silt up. The real difficulty associated with locking a river is the impounding of enough water.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY: You would have to be g·uided by your engineers.

::Ylr. 2\H}LLER: I realise that. That is mv re(lson for applauding the action of the ::Ylinister in sending Mr. Parkinson overseas to make further inquiries on this subject. During the last few years I have personally inspected several irrigation schemes in the South. I realise there is a limit to the financial impost that can be placed on land for irrigation works.

It has been revealed during the l(lst two or three years more than ever before. that agricultural pursuits cannot be carried on or developed without the aid of irrigation. Brisbane would be without a supply of local potato0s and lucerne chaff at the present til11e if it were not for irrigation. If the drought continues much longer more money will he 'PPnt in importing potatoes (lnd lucerne chaff than would meet th.c cost of one of the-se schemes.

An irrigation sch<:>me would provide work for the worklbs. The scheme I have in n1incl. and upon which we have been work­ing. sets out the total cost of construction of the dam. Of those cost' 40 per cent. would be absorbed in wages. Therefore, a p·eat deal of the money would be spent in our own countrv. For the life of me I cannot imagine ho;,., any hon. member can at this time say that money expended in consenation of water would be money thrown awav. I feel sure we shall have to ha Ye water" conservation; but if you are going to ask a small body of farmers to form themselves into a water trust then it will never be done, because the financial responsibility on them would be too great. I claim it would be sound business for the Government to provide the money and charge the people who use the water a water rate. Perhaps the Government would be taking some risks for the first year or two, because during that time a sufficient number would not be using the water to pay interest and redemption on the money expended, but after a few years. when the people saw the benefits of irrigation, I believe the undertaking would pay.

The hon. member for Ipswich said that if a water conservation scheme was under­taken in an area it would be essential to resume the adjacent land. I take it what the hon. member had in his mind was that the Crown ,hould own the land and lease it to the farmers who would use the water. Suppose we acted on that suggestion, I wonder if th2 hon. member has ever gone into the question of the cost of the resump­tion of these lands, the greater part of which are improved. The greatest .obstacle is the total cost of the work. If the Govern­ment are going to consider, first of all, building a dam and then resuming the adjacent land. the cost entailed would be

[Mr. Muller.

prohibitive.. H the scheme I suggested was carried out the cost would not be great­If a suitable site was secured a dam could be built for a great deal less than £500,000. therefore. I say, the Government are the only authorities who are sufficiently com­petent to carry out the work. I say again, if we dilly dally on this question and. as the hon. memqer for Ipswich said. allow it to become a matter of conversation imtead of conservati.on. we are not likely to get anywhere. \Ve must face this qU"3tion determinedly. Afte1· all, this is not such a. big scheme compared with other projects that we have unrlertaken. vVe have projects under construction in and around the city of Brisbane that cost four times as much. \Ve have to a Yery groat extent pltssed the experimental stages, and "'e have the advantage of seeing what is being done in, the Southern States.

I hope the Minister will give this que,tion his serious consideration. I know it is a big undertaking, but I believe the officers attached to his department wil! be able to giv·e us great help in the future. and that before long the Government will be pre­pared to set aside a sum of money with which to undertake this great work.

The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN reported progre<s and asked

leHe to sit again. Resumption of Committee made an Order·

of the Day for to-morrow.

SPECIAL ADJOL:'Rl\"i\lEI"T. The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith.

Jfac!.·ay): I move-" That the House, at its rising. do

adjourn until Tuesday next." Question put and passed.

The House adjourned at 8.47 p.m_