Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

TUESDAY, 20 AUGUST 1907

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Address in Reply. [20 AUGUST.] Address in .Reply. 305

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, 20 AUGUST, 1907.

The PRESIIlENT (Hon. Sir Arthur M organ) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

SAVINGS BANK SECURITIES IN LON­DON - QUEENSLAND NATIONAL BANK REPORT.

The PRESIDENT announced the receipt of reports from the Agent-General on Savings Bank securities held in London, and, from the Auditor-General, the sixth half-yearly report under the Queensland National Bank Agree­ment Act.

Ordered to be printed.

PAPERS.

The following papers, laid on the table, were ordered to be printed:-

(1) Report of the Public Service Board for 1906.

(2)

(3)

(4)

Report of the Officer in Charge, Govern­ment Relief, for 1906.

Report of the Comptroller-General of Prisons for 1906.

Regulations under the Health Act of 1900.

(5) Regulation under the Police Acts, 1838 to 1891.

(6) Report of the Auditor-General under the Supreme Court Funds Act of 1895.

(7) Ammal report of the Department of Public Lands for 1906.

I!J'

ADDRESS IN REPLY. RESUMPTION OF DEBATE,

Upon the Order of the Day being read for the resumption of the adjourned debate on Mr. McDonnell's motion-

That the following Address be presented to His Excellency the Governor:- -

To His Excellency the Right Honourable FREDERIC JOHN N APnm, Baron Chelmsford of Chelmsford, in the County of Essex, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, Knight Commander of the Most Dis­tinguished Order of St. Michael and St. George, Governor of the State of Queensland and its Dependencies, in the Common wealth of Australia.

MAY IT PLEAs~~ YouR ExcELLENCY,-

We, His Majesty's loyal and dutiful subjects, the members of the Legislative Council of Queensland, in Parliament assembled, desire to assure Your Excellency of our continued loyalty and affection to the Throne .and Person of Our Most Gramous Sovereign, and to thank Your Excellency for the Speech with which you have been pleased to open the present session.

We will give our most careful consideration and attention to the several measures mentio-ned by Your Excellency, and to a11 other matters brought before us; and we sincerely trust that our deliberations will tend to the promotion of the good. government and the welfare of the State.

HoN. F. T. BRENTN.ALL: I do not sup­pose that any prolonged discussion will alter the decision of the Council with regard to this particular motion, and, probably, any lengthened consideration of the various items in the Speech of His Excellency the Governor would! not either further enlighten us or make very much impression .on us. .A great deal has boon said on the different para­graphs of the Speech itself, and on the numerous Bills-over twenty, I think-which

1907-W

cm1stitute the vrogramme of the Government. With regard to those particular Bills I cannot congratulate the Government on anything oold or heroic, anything very striking. Several of them are amendments o:f measures which only within the last two or J;hree years have passed the Legislature, and others are of minor importance compared with what is re­qnired at the present time to enable this country to fulfil its destiny; to realise the promise which it is now making, and to re­alise, also, the hopes and expectations of the people concern!ng its possible pt~osperity. It would perhaps be in order if I were to follow the example set by most of the speakers who preceded me in this debate by offering some congratulations. I have not many complimen­tary congratulations to offer. I have a recollec­tion of a lesson impressed on me when I was a boy, because at that period I went to school where a certain book was used as a book of instruction which a large numher of the people of this State and the Commonwealth regard as being unsuitable for public instruction at the present time. The lesson to which I par­ticularly refer was, " Use not vain repetitions." Well, we have had a number of l\?petitions during this debate, and I do not think there is any necessity for me to repeat many remarks of hon. gentlemen. I think I may fairly con­gratulate the newly-appointed members who have been ·elevated, as it is commonly called, to the democratic secti0n of the Queensland Legislature. (Laughter.) They han• come here, probably, to realise somebody's expecta­tions-they have come her.e to reward past services-and about neither of those objects would I venture to say one word. The Govern­ment have acted strictly within their rights; they have given us more than the normal num­ber of members again, and I only hope that ,,hatever honourable expectations have been formed by the introduction of thE'se new mem­bers they will find something like a genial sphere of operations for their political abili­ties and for their political principles. I would especially congratulate the Minister who has been retained in the Cabinet Council because only some fifteen or sixteen months ago, on a \Vestern tour, he was severely censuring this branch of the Legislature because it did not realise all that it ought to have realised m passing measures which the Government of which he was a member introduced. I am not drawing entirely from my memory, for I have here some of the words that the Hon. Mr. Airey is reported to have u;,ed on that tour-

He referred to the measures thrown out by the Legislative ·council, and said he was afraid the Council had exceeded its powers by dabbling and interfering with financial measures. The Oounril was an estab .. lished part oLthe Constitution, which was a big problem to deal with; but the Government wou d deal with the Council just as soon as the people m~tde them strong enough to do so. There is not only some animadversion there, but there is a threat. I do not know whether th ~ elevation of himself and others holding his opinions to this Council has been in further-­ar.ce of the intentions of the Government as soon as they can command the means to put an end to this Council. If so, their political reign will probably not be a very long one. How­ever, I repeat again what I have said before, that so long as they are here they will find a welcome. I am sure they will be respectfully treated. and due attention will be given to what they have to sav. vVe must not expect all to agree in our ·political opinions. We cannot all agree, because we have our dif­ferent spheres of life; we have our different kinds of activities in life, and our different

Hon. F. T. Brentnall.]

306 Adrhe.ss in Reply. [COL"NCIL.] Address in Reply.

interests, and whilst one may be of this class a.nd another be of that class, I have always held strongly that any man who comes into tins branch of thE> Legislature ought to come here with an honest and sir,cere desire anJ determination to do the best he can in the interests of the whole of the community.

HoKOrRABLE GENTLE~! EN: Hear, hear! HoN. F. T. BRENTNALL: It would be an

easy thing to offer one or two other compli­ments with regard to the clever manner in which the Government have got over the recent difficulties and retained its power to administer the affairs of this country,. but at this stage of the debate we can well afford to pass those things over. One thing I am glad about 1s that in this Speech of His Excellency the Governor there is an entire absence of that loud-mouthed boasting of which we heard so much during the late genNal election, and the a~ency-the marvellous agency, and the almost omnipotent influence-which had brought about our present condition of pros­perity. I do not refer to anything super· ncttural, divine, or omnipotent. I refer to the marvellous cleverness and capacity of the head of the Government, who, by his clever manipu­lation of the affairs of this State, and par­ticularly of the Treasury, has brought about the· wonderful condition of prosperity which we enJOY at the present time. He went all over the country procJaiming this. It was a boaot on nearly every platform on which the Premier stood. I repeat that there is none of that loud-mouthed boasting in the Speech of the Governor. But there is rather a reverent recognition of the beneficence of Nature, which has produced for us the results which are so gratifying to everybody, and will tend so much to the welfare of the whole of the community. With regard to the programme of business con­tained m the Speech of His Excellency the Governor, there are just two or three items about which I would say a few words. One of the preceding speakers referred to the difficulties which had fallen upon this State through the bonds which haYe been welded upo;1 us by Federal legislation. Well, that is a subject very much thrashed, but it will hav0 to be thrashed out. a g~eat deal more yet. We have not done w1th 1t, because the Federal Parliament has not done with us. Of all the iniquities in the form of legislation which it has fallen to my lot to -;xperience during my rela­tions. chrc~tly or md1rect!y, with the public life of Austraha, the latest 1s the tariff which has recently been introduced'in the Federal Parlia­ment. a.nd which i;; going not onlv to affect yery seriously the producing in­terests ?f the comn;mmty and its com­mer.:~al mter<Jsts but 1s going to, fall with very great seventy upon th<> working classBs. By and by, perhaps. W<l s11all have burdens enoug1l. thrust upon us to malm some of us gro':n, 1f we are not groaning already. Every sesswn of th~ Federal Pa.rliament the;.e fetters are bcmg· hghtened, and we may feel very strongly the evd to winch we have committed ourselves by our own voluntary action. \Vith regard to .the fourth paragraph of the Speech. the beauhful reference tlwre to the continued p~ospenty of the .cm.mtry through a succession of good seas?ns IS Just what every one of us can .agree w1th. \Ve all recognise that the good s::>asons are really the source of our prosperity at the present time, and when we re~ember the _enormous amount of money :whwh was reahsed only last yeaT from one 1tem alone connected with the pastoral indus­try of Australia, we shall see what the benefit of good seasons is. Instead of our flocks being

[Hon. F. T. Brentnall.

decimated. they are largely and rapidly in­creasmg. Instead of getting £8 lls. lOd. for a oale o£ wool, a> we got some ten or twelve years ago, we ar·e getting now the sum of £16 14~. Sd. We are .reoeiving £40,000,000 in twelve month> from that one item of wool alone to sa.y n?thin!?,· of Au~tralia's fat she-ep; and if th1s kmd of prospenty goes on and increases it mean•, of course, the increased we.alth and w'el­far·e of the community at large. \Vhy. our own n':tu;·al increase in sheep has been S:J millions wlthm the last year or two, and if we go on at that rate it will not take so very long to get hack to where we were before the serious drought began. But while we are realising such enormous s'!ms from our pa.ctoral, dairy­lng. \~heat-gro':•'lDg, and mining industries, there 1s scm<Jthmg else I should like to knov\ \Yhy is it that ~o m.any of our industries, apart fro!ll the agra~·1ar: 1ndus.tries, are languishing, wh1le money 1s mcreasmg and accumulating to such an enormous extent? \Yhy is it that such. a large portion. of this money has to go o';'ts1de of Australia to seek investment? Well, perhaps we may ha1e different answers to that question, but my answ0r is that that money goes outside of Australia for invest­ment because our capitalists have not faith enough in the Government of their States, or in the Federal Government, and whilst barriers are being raised and interfe.rence with the em· ployment of capital are being made year after year in the forms in ,vhich thev have been made lately, well, then, there is not likely to be confidence with the owners of money to invest it in enterprises that might be profit­able to themselves and beneficial to the work­ing. clas~es. _I !>eard . only to-day of one husmes' m th1s 01ty whwh stands to lose by careful computation, well on towards £4 000 a year by this new tariff. Its operations ~vill be diminished to 111<lat extent in that particuiar bvsine<'l._ That business is a large. one. Of course tile loss could not be so large if it were not. hut it is all because of this beauti­ful, progre•sive, democratic legislation that we hear lauded up to the skies in these days. There cannot, therefore, be much wonder that people should be distrustful of Govern­ments who claim to be the authors of all the prosperity that is given to the country from the beneficent seasons that the country is now enjoying. Well, I shall not follow the details of these Bills more fully. I want to refer more specifically to one or two things which are not in the Speech, rather than to the things which are in it. I would very much like to know why, out of the twenty-one or so measures which we have enumerated at the end. of the _Speech, there is nothing to help a partwular mdustry at the present time which is promising ,to be one of our most importa_nt industrie~, and which is largely developmg and rap1dly developing-that is the mining industry. \Ve have had for on~ or two years promises of a 'Ylining Act Amend­;nent Bill, but there is nothing of that sort m the pr0 ;ent programme. There is a Bill in existence, I know: There was a Bill intro­duced last session, but it was quietly shelved. It never came ~o far as this branch of the Legislature, and that Bill is still in existence. If anything; requ.ires stlmulus and encourage­ment ':n:f m?ent1ve at the present time it is the mmmg mclustry ; but because that Bill was in terms which were a little liberal in the direction of_ the us~ of capital it hangs fire, and th~ Leg1slat';'re 1s not asked to do anything for an mdustry hke that. Something ought to he done for it. We have recently enjoyed­probably all of us enjoyed it-the sight of the

.Address in Repl,y. [20 AuGusT.] Address in Repl,y. 307

mineral specimens in the mineral court at the Exhibition. There were some magnificent specimens there, and some of them came from new resources and new mines, and it has been intimated that those specimens that have been exhibited, here :>re to be sent to the Angle­French ExhibitiOn, to be held next year in Europe. Well, I hope they will be sent. And I also hope that a large increase of them will be made? and I hope-with very strong emphasis on thts hope-I hope the Government will send someone in charge of those exhibits who will be able to tell the people in France and En"'­land who might want to know where the exhibits avtually came from of what nature they consist, what their prospects for develop­ment are, whether the resources are ample or not, and generally to enter into the technical mi'.'eralogical asp~cts of the different specimens. It IS no use senclmg a schoolmaster. It is no use sending a professional man-I mean a member of some other profession than min­mg--but let an expert mineralogist go in c~arge of that exhibit, and then probably it will arrest the attention of the people with money and with enterprise in those old lands, and '!'duce them. to turn their eyes in this ~Irectwn. Ther~ Is one other thing in connec­twn with the Mmes Department I would like t? refer to, nnd it is the absence at the present tune of proper provision for making assays of any spec:mens of new discoveries especially, or of any kmd of discovery. The Assay Office has ~een rem'?ved to ~he Executive Building. It 1~ now, I oeheve, m an upper story in a con­siderably. out-of-:he-way ·place, although I do not say ma9ce~sible,. but it is being largely­and I surmise mtentwnally-used for analyses and aaaays of characters different from mine­c:als. It is very dif,ficult indeed for any man If he finds oon:e mmeral that puzzles him, as he d'?es, as to Its nature and as to its contents and Its prospects, to get an assav made with­out paying a considerable sum for it. I know that by the generous enterprise of one of the· !ocal papers a good deal of this kind of work Ia done, and it is highly creditable that it is done m that form. But this is a State question. There are a lot of prospectors out in different parts of this State who come across what they call "good shows," and they want to know more about. them. The first place they naturally thmk of and go to is the Mines Department and the Geological Survey Depart­ment, but when they get to the Geological Survey Department there is some considerable trouble in getting an assay made. That branch of the administration has been removed away altogether from the Mines Department and I maintain it is the duty whatever th~ cost may be, it is the duty of the Government to provide a proper plant for assaying mineral sp!'cimens directly in connection with the M:nes Department. Now, when the Hon. the lYIImster for Public Instruction was speaking !he other .day on this very important sub­Ject of mmmg he referred to :\Jount l\1or,.an­I . t,hink it was Mount Morgan-and to mmmg generally, and he seemed to be rather sorry-and probably a good many people are sorry, too-that a source of wealth such as is found at Mount Morgan does not ~el<;m_g solely to the State, and that any private mdiVtduals should g-et any profit out of it at all. It is a big thing when you come to think of jhe millions of money-I think they have

paid £7,000,000 in dividends in con­[4 p.m.] nection with that mine-it is a

very big thing, and it would be of very great service to the State if they had that money; but the question arises in my mind whether the State would have known anything

at all about 1Uount Morgan if it had been left to State enterprise alone. In connection with !'lining, mines have re.cently been opened up In the Gladstone dtstrwt Herberton district Chillagoe district, and sbmc of them in th~ Cloncurry district. I ask whether the country would be any better if those mineral resources we1:e In the hands of the State, and if the natwnahsatwn of this industry were a literal fact and no development took place except what the Government paid for and stimu­lated 1 Would the Govei·nment equip and send out pr<:spectm~· parties? I do not think the prospectmg par~tes would be willing to go out under such eqmpment and such authority. When these men go out prospecting they like ~o ;so on their own, '' ith !he prospect of .li"ap­mg the ,benefit of anythmg they might dis­eov:'r, with some chanees of making a bit of a pile, and I do not see auy objection to that. I do not see why when men have done all that there should be any lament or a.ny complaint that .the State does not own the. business. I£ the State wants the mines let them open them up. They. belong to the State now, and all that remams to be done, If the State wishes to get hold of them, is to send somebody up to open them, and to pay them handsomely to do It, and they will not get anyone to go unless th<ly do pay them well. I think for the Government to attempt anything of this kind would pr?bably lead to something like the result whwh followed from that verv commend­able effort which th<J Hon. the :i\Iinister for Public Instruction. _made some years ago, when he was 1'11Imster for Public Lands to promote .a communal settlement. N; o;w would object to a communal settlement '~-It were a practicable scheme that were pos­sible of fulfilment, but so long as you have human nature what it is you will always have someone wanting to be on top. I do not care what class of men you have, they will not agree very long. I think that all the attempts that have been made to carrv out settlement ~m those. lines-on the co-operative principle­m opemng up the resources of the country throughout Australia, or even as far as Para­guay, have been a failure. There is one other matter in connection with this mining business. .I talk about !t beca:'se it will probably be the last opportumty I will have of speaking on this matter. I understand this Minin"' Bill which was a very liberal one, had been"' prep~red by the oflic~rs of the department, after it had J:>een ~n,xwusly thought out, and men interested m mmmg had been consulted and it would have been a Bill that would h~ve clone a Jot of good. That Bill has been pigeon-holed for two or thr.ee years, and it will remain pigeon­holed. It is because we have not the chance of discussing a question of this sort that I devote my time just now to the consideration of this subject. Wfien the Hon. Mr. Barlow was talking on nationalising the mining in­dustry,. the Hon. Mr. ::\1cGhie interjected somethmg about the Dawson River Mine. Is that mine nationalised?

Hon. P. MACPHERSON: No.

HoN. F. T. BRENTNALL: Is the Govern· ment opening that up properly? Now, hon. gentlemen, the fact of the matter with regard to the Dawson River Mine is that after the owners of the lease had spent something like £,6,00? or £7;_000 in di~covering coal, and they did discover It, and discovered it in consider­able quantities, but because they were not prepared, and because their funds would not permit them, to put down £2,000 at the direc­tion of the Treasurer, after a certain period­and a very short period, too-the Treasurer

Hon. F. T Brmtnall.]

:308 A.dd1·ess ~n Reply. [COUNCIL.] A.dd,ress in .Repl,y.

practically foreclosed. No renewal of lease was to be granted and no further license was t<J be granted, but he was going to undertake to get out some of the coal himself. Well, I do not know how long they have been working there, but they have been working for a good many months. Mr. Rankin is in charge of that work, and probably the Hon. i\Ir. l\lcGhie knows more about it than I do. The Hon. Mr. i\1cGhie seemed to recognise that it was a sont of nationalising of the mining industry, but I know this: that all the work that has been done ·and all the money that has been spent has not raised a suffiCient quantity of coal from the mine to answer the object for which the experiment was made. The poor unfortunate men them­selves seem to have lost their ·property and lost their money too. The Government were going. to show them how to do it, but what have the .Government done? The Govern­ment have got out some 200 tons of coal for i\lount Morgan and also a few htmdred tons to be tried on the railways and on the rh-ar steamers, and they have sent down a com­paratively small quantitv of coal to be tested on one of the vessels o(the Admiralty. That is the result of the nationalisation of that industry, and I do not he~itate to say hm·e now that if the Government would just stand aside and let that pettifogging method of mining alone there are people who are pre­pared to come in and take up those leases and work them, and compensate those who discovered the coal on a liberal scale, and very soon produce a different result. But all that, or course, will depend upon a branch railway being connected with the C-entral Railway. '.rhese are the aspects of one of our industries wlich are utterly ignored. In the list of Bills re­ference is made to a number of measures, but this industry is utterly ignored. Nothing apparently is to be done to help an industry which has been largely developed during the last twelve months. Although the production of gold has fallen off in the last twelve months, minerals other than gold have largely· developed, and no one can forecast what is likely to be the result of present operations by the use of the capital of individuals ore companies during the next two or three years. But I think in spite of this quiescence of the Government, in spite of this neglect of al'l industry like that, private enterprise will show that this great country, which, at any rate, can only be regarded as having been tickled on the »urface with regard to its mineral resources as compared with a country like Cornwall, where mining has been carried on for probably 2,000 years-this country which has only been touched or scratched on the surface-that some­thing will be done that will help to make this land the great land which it ought to be. In connection with that I hope that the stupid objection and opposition to enlarged immigra­tion will very soon cease and that we shall get people coming in so that the outcry for labourers we hear from all directions at the present time will cease, and we shall not be in a position such as was described by the Hon. Mr. Davey the other day when he said that he would rather see ten employers look­ing out for men to work than he would see one working man looking for employment. Well, if we wait for a time like that we shall never have much of a country.

HONOURABLE GENTLEMEN; Hear, hear! HoN. M. JENSEN: With other hon. gentle­

men, I join in my congratulations of our pre­sent President on the honour bestowed upon him-an honour which he richly deserves. I

[Hon. F. T. Brentnall.

think that the Government deserves con­gratulation on the introduction of the long list of reform measures that they have given us here. It shows that the Government intend to contmue in the path of progress that they have been travelling on in the past. As regards the first Bill on this list, I sincerely hope it will be one of the first measures passed by this Chamber, and that the iniquitous system of postal votes for women will be completely abolished.

HmmuRABLE GENTLEMEN: Hear, hear!

HoN. M. JENSEN: It will be impossible for such a sy,tem to be continued without objections. Hon. members say that there are abuses connected with every measure. So there are, but some lend themselves to abuses more than others, and abuses are mseparable from this system of postal voting. The justice of the peace is present in a room while the female voter is voting. As a justice of the peace it is his duty to be present, but not to see how she votes. On the other hand, as a canvasser, it is his interest to see how she votes, and will hon. gentlemen tell me that there are not some of the 3,700 justicP' of the peace iil this State who~ while engaged in canvas.sing for votes, will fail to draw a delicate line between the work of canvassing and the lf'gitimate work of the justice of the peace? All parties are interested in the abolition of the present system of postal voting for women, because it places an undue power in the hands of the ma,pority, wherever it may be, whereas it is the minority which requires protection. Sup­posing a woman is out \V"'t in a little town­ship, and she wishes to vote for a particular can­didate who may not be the popular candidate. She is asked to reveal for whom she intends to vote, and being afraid to express her real sentiments, she may be forced into saying that she intends to vote for the popular candidate. Now, when she is in a room with a justice of

<the peace, who can see how she intends to vote. if she asks him to stand a little further off, she will be telling him at once that she is voting against his candidate. There are so many difficulties and dangers connected with postal voting that it would be a good thirig if it were abolished both for men and women, even though some few may be disfranchised.

Hon. F_ T. BRENTNALL: My experience is as to the difficulty of getting a postal vote, and not as to the ease with which it may be obtained.

HoN. M JENSEN: But the hon. gentleman ,will admit that a justice of the peace, if can­vassing 4D miles out West. if he is not a very scrupulous man, will know for whom the voter votes.

Hon. F. T. BRENTNALL: I do not think any such imputation is fair.

HoN. M. JENSEN: But the justice of the peace is in a room with the female voter, and, as a matter of fact, the justices in some eases got to know how a number of postal ballots were cast, and voters were afraid to do more than write lett-ers of complaint to discreet persons who would not show the communica­tions to others outside. i.Vly idea of the proper method of remedying all these evils is the adoption of some system of machine voting. I have heard of one instance in a country elec­torate in which a postal ballot was given to a woman who could not write. The justice of the peace in that case would know for whom she voted, although the Act provides that no ballot-paper should be given to a woman who cannot write.

Address in Repl,y. [20 AUGUST.] Address in Reply. 309

Hon. F. T. BRENTNALL: \Vhat business was it of the canvasser's to know how she voted?

HoN. M. JENSEN: The canvasser made it his business to know.

An Ho~OURABLE GENTLEllfAN: There are black sheep among all classes.

HoN. M. JENSEN: Of course there are; but there is no doubt in my mind that this postal ballot operates strongly against the minority.

Hon. P. M URPIIY: How would you make proyision for the seamen on the coast?

HoN. ]\f. JEXSEN: I would sooner ooe them disfrauci1ised than continue the present system.

Hon. P. AIREY: It would be the lesser evil. HoN. J\I .• JEJ:\SEN: If seamen were disfran­

chised so also would a number of commercial travellers, and the one disadvantage would balance the other.

Hon. P. l\lrRPHY: \:Yould that not be a pity?

HoN. l\I. JENSEN: It would, but it would be better than the existing iniquitous system, which is a system of coercion and intimidation.

An HONO;:'RABI,E GENTLEMAN: \Vhy not adopt the Federal system?

HoN. :\I. JENSEN: Even the Federal sys­tem is not perfect.

Hon. P. AIREY: A commission condemned it unhesitating !y.

HoN. M. JENSEN: I am glad to hear it. I noticed the other day that in the Senate the following resolution was carried:-That in the opinion of the Senate-

In order to obviate mformal voting, errors in countlng, and delay in parliamentary elections, the time haR arrived to adopt a machine for voting purpu.!'es, lf an effective one can be pro­cured.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: The voting machines are inside and not outside the House. ·

HoN. M. JENSEN: These machines are in use in some American States, and it appears there is only one objection to them-that is, the difficulty cf punishing the men who are guilty of r-ersonation. I regret that there is no mention made in the Speech of a Pure Foods Bill-not necessarily a comprehensive measure, but one which would, at all events, deal with the more flagrant difficulties at present met with. Is it not monstrous that such a medi­cine as "Peruna" should be publicly sold in our community-a medicine which contains about one-fifth pure alcohol? A little while ago I noticed an advertisement in one of the papers stating that a man in America, one hundred and seventeen years of age, attributed h1~ extraordinary old age to the habitual use of '• Per una."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: H0 started young.

HcJN. l\I. JENSEN: Yes; he stat-ed before the medicine was known. Honourable gen­tlemen will remember the orosecution of a firm some eighteen months- ago for selling thi-s medicine, and the charge laid against them was, I understand, that of selling spirits without a license. In Victoria the sale of this medicine is prohibited unless it has paid duty as a spirit. In the Vic­torian Pure Foods Act of 1895 there is a· clause to the effect that no food or drug is to be sold which contains alcohol in excess of 2 per cent. Now, "Peruna" contains 20

per cent., which ig ten times as much alcohol as would be permitted to be sold in Victoria under the name of a patent medicine. Although hon. gentlemen might not go so far as to con­tend that the contents of these medicines should be openly printed on the outside wrap­per, yet l think they will agr.ee with me that some restriction should be placed upon the sale of alcohol in the form of medicine. I know of one case in vvhich a parent, having much faith in this medicine, was giving it to a girl eleven years of age, and imagined that it was benefiting her.

The SECRETARY ~'OR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: They give it to babies.

Hon. F. T. BRENTNALL: A man told me to-day that it had done him a lot of good. (Laughter.)

HoN. l\1. JENSEK: Still it would not do good to infants or young children. I much regret that the Government have not seen their way to make any provision for the pro­posed University, which, I contend, should be established on thoroughly democratic lines. To a rich man, it is a matter of indifference whether a Universitv is established or not, because he can send his children to a Southern University, but there are parents in Brisbane who have not the means of doing that, and yet who would make a struggle to support their children at a local University until they could obtain their degrees.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: Do you think the people who have the Uni­ver&ity in hand here w1ll make it a democratic institution?

HoN. JIII. JENSEN: No; but the Govern­ment would. Certainly it would never do to establish it on the lines of the Sydney U ni­versity. It is said that what prevents the Sydney University from being democratic is its independence on account of the enormous bequests that have been made to it. In some re~oects it is. carried on on conservative lines, and at one stage the governi_ng body wished to dictate to the Erofessor of History what views he should teach. I presume, if a Uni­versity were established here, it would be on entirely different lines. The little State of Tasmania has voted £4,000 a year for the last seventeen years to its University, although its population is only li5,000. The Hon. Mr. Brentnall referred to the fetters imposed on us by the Commonwealth Parliament. I do not quite understand the hon. gentleman's argu­ment, seeing that the State elector and the Commonwealth elector is the same person. Does the State elector on one day vote on certain lines, and then turn round and as a Commonwealth elector vote against the views he gave expression to six months before?

Hon. F. T. BRENTNAU: Ask me something easy.

lioN. JIII. JENSEN: The Commonwealth members can be relied upon to accurately gauge public opinion, because on that depends the question whether they will be elected for a further term, and they will not be likely to support anything of which the electors strongly disapprove.

An HoNOURAllLE GENTLEMAN: They voted for an extra £200 a year for themselves.

HoN. M.· JENSEN: I think the salary o£ £400 a year is a ridiculous amount. It is absurd for a professional man, for instance, who has been a leading member of a late Government here, to go down to Melbourne as the repreoontative of the metropolitan

Hon. Jll. J ensen.]

310 Address in Reply. [COUNCIL.J A.dd1·ess in L epT,y.

constituency for £400 a year. Probably it would have been better if the electors had been consulted.

HoNOURABLE GENTLEMEN: Hear, hear! Hon. R. H. SMITH: The gentleman to whom

you allude voted against the 'increase. HoN. :11. JENSEN: There might lee some

who votod against the increase knowing that they would get the salary, and also get the credit of voting against it; but I do not think that would apply to the hon. gentleman to whom I have alluded.

Hon. P. AIREY: \Yhv should the Federal member for Melbourne be paid a bigger salary than the State member for Carpentaria? Ho~. }1. JENSEK: I was considering the

position of a leading· professional man who goes to Melbourne for £400 a year.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: But he does not go for £400 a year.

HoN. ::\1. JE::\'SEK: Speaking of the Com­monwealth Government reminds me of the outcry as to the invasion of State rights. The Hon. l\Ir. Airey, in his speech, referred to the fa.ct that the necessity for the introduction of a Bill to compel Commonwealth servants resi­dent in the State to pay income tax was fraught with danger to Queensland. For my paJ·t I fail to •ee it. The decision of the judges of thB High Court was based on a great constitutional question-namely, that they would not allow the State Government to interfere in the slightest degree with a Com­monwealth agency. If the State Government had power to Impose an income tax of one penny, a hostile State would have power to impose an income tax on Commonwealth ser­vants of 15s. 'jn the £1.

Hon. F. T. BRENT~AIL: Thev cannot do that invidiously under the ConstJ.tution.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC I~STRCCTION: Taxation mnst be equal.

HoN. M. JE:i'\SEN: The point the judge" took was that they would not enter into the question whether it was a small or a large attack on the Commonwealth. In time to come I have no doubt that their decision will be quoted as an authority against the Com­monwealth when it is passing some legislation which may interfere with the States in matters which have not been handed over to the Commonwealth The cry of " State rights" appears to me to l'e suicidal. Does it mean that the Commonw0alth is not to exercise its un­doubted power cecause one State objects? If so, then the people of Tasmania would gladly adopt that view, because they complain bitterly of the sacrifices they made for the benefit of Queensland in the matter of the sugar bounty. Or does it mean that the· Com­monwealth is not to act until all the States approve of its legislation? That would mean a different Constitution. The Commonwealth Parliament cannot possibly interfere with State rights while there is a High Court in exist­cence with ability to give decisions upon such matters as are in dispute between the States and the Commonwealth. At the present moment I understand that litigation has been started to decide whether the union label in the Trade Marks Act is not beyond the power of the Commonwealth to enforce. I can quite imagine that a time may come when New South Wales and Victoria will be hostile to s0me Act of the Commonwealth Parliament of which Queensland just as strongly approves, and then we shall hear much less about the invasion of State rights. In regard to the

(Hon. M. J ensen.

proposed establishment of old age pensions hon. members will, perhaps, allow me to briefly quote from an article on that subject by Andrew Wilson in " Chambers's JY1agazine." The scheme has been in force in Germany since 1891, and it is estimated that 12,000,000 men .and woman are affected by it. The em­ployer pays one-half and the employee o?e­half, and the German workman has no optwn in the matter. It is compulsory.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: Does not the employer take it off the wages?

HoN. M. JENSEN: I am not advocating this particular scheme, but merely quoting it to show what is being done elsewhere. Take the case of a casual employee, such as a washer­woman. The first employer in thE' week is the one who pays the premium, and if thr· washer­woman goes to work for the first hme on Tues­dav it is that emplover who makes the pay­m~,.;t. The payment~ are not large, and the following are the figures; The \Wrkers are divided into four classes. The first class con­sists of those who earn £18 a year and ~nder. Thev pay N. a week, and the pension 1s 2s. id. a week. The pension is not receivable until they arc seventy year~ of age, and t?-ey must ham paid their contnhutwns for th1rty vpars. 'The second clas.; consists of those earn­ing £28 a vear and under. Their premium is 1d. a week: and the pension is 2s. 7d. a week. The third class consists of those whose wages are £42 a year. The premium in their case is 1{d. per week, and the pension 3s. 2d. a week. The fourth class includes those whose incomes are above £42 a vear but undeT £100 a year. The contribution 1n their case is He!. per week, and the pension is 3s. Sd. a week. These. how­ever. ttre not the onlv benefits winch are de­rived under the sche·me. became it is also a ~ick pension ~cheme. which. of course, is a matter of considerable . importance. If the worker is thrown out of employment perman­ently by sickness, he receives his sick pen­sion' and he mav claim in ca'e' where he has on!~ rec·ci v<ccl 0;10-third of his yearly wag_es. \Vhen he recovers, of course, the sick penswn ceases. I forgot to mention that it is the Post Office that manages this s~heme. At the end of the week the worker pays in ~is money, receives stamps, and Lhey are put m a boo~, and when the book is full the amount IS

cndited to the next book. ttnd so on. One objection to an old age pension scheme is that it is impossible for tbe Federal Government to deal with it. 1\'ow, no matter how deslfous th·c Commonwealth GovcrnmE>nt may be of dealing with th<; matter-and it has always l;een desirous-the question of means is an obstacle. If they exercised their right of levy­inrr a land or income tax, they would be ~et with the objection of State rights. If they raise the amount through the Cmtoms, the:y must raise four times as much as they reqmre, O? account of the. Braddon clause. Therefore, It appears to me that to leave the matter to the Commonwealth would mean that it would lre put off for another six or seven years. The Hon. Dr. Taylor sa1d he rather disapproved .of old age pensions on the ground that they dis­couraoed thrift. It has always appeared to me that i; the case of a man with a small income, one of the cest points about an old age P<;m­sion scheme is that it will discoura!l'e thnft. Take the caoe of a married man ean:nng: £2 or £2 lOo. a. week: is it not better for his wife and

his children thai he should spend [4.30 p.m.] every penny he possess~s on t_he

mBnta] moral, and physwal tram· ing of his children than it is for 11im to attempt

Address zn Repl,y. [20 AuGusT.] Address in Reply. 311

to save? And what a trifle he would save! He could cnly save his money to the detriment of hig wife and children. Of course, no one would approve of the case which was mentioned by the Hon. Dr. Taylor. where a bachelor spends his hard-earned money and knocks down as much as £40 or £50 in two days in drink. There are only one or two other matters to which I wish to refer. The Hon. lVfr. Brent­nall refe~red to the investment of Australian money in England, and he said that it was fear of fhe consequences of Labour legislation that prevented that money being invested out here. But I know of money that was invested i.1 England last December, after the British Gove-rnment had passed a Trade Disputes Bill -a Bill which was much more drastic than the mea-sure introduced into this House last session. The Bill introduced by the present Queensland Government did not allow a man to persuade another to break his contracts, but the English Act contained a provision to that <>ffect.

Hon. :B'. T. BRENTNALL: Th<>y have not gone there for investment. The money is deposited in banks and put in consols.

HoN. J\1. JENSE:;:\1: I shall show the hon. gentleman that that is not the case as it appears to me. If there wer<> any fears of Labour legislation, it should exist in England, because the British Government passed a \Vorkmen's Compensation Act which involved serious obligations on employers.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: And there has been the election of Mr. Gray­son, the socialist.

HoN. M. JENSEN: That is a recent occur­rence, but I am referring to investments made in England in December last. For forty-five years there has not been the same interest Barncd by investment in England as there was last year. The rate of interest was high and the owners of consols sold their stock to in­vest it in other directions, where they could get a return of 4, 5, and 6 per cent. interest. Consols, too, have been falling very low-in fact, they fell to £81 the other clay, which is somethmg that has not obtained for forty-five yeari'. Is it any wonder, then. that t-he big fina,ncial institutions in Queensland that have made advances to the pastoralists on their "ool, which was afterwards sold in London, should retain that money in London and in­vest it for 4, 5, and 6 per cent. ; and, I believe in some instances the rate of interest has gon~ up as high as 7 per cent. With regard to the proposed amendment of the Factories and Shops Act, I shall be pleased if it includes some clauses limiting the weight of bags. I am told that some bags of flour weigh 200 lb., potatoes 240 lb., and bags of wheat 300 lb. That is a crll,shing weight to put on men who have to carry these bags sometimes for four hours over a slippery vessel. Some years ago Dr .. Lyons wrote a letter to the Courier, in whrch he stated that he had just been to the hospital to attend a man whose health was permanently ruined through carrying these bags. I cannot remember now if he recom­mended that some legislation should be carried out to deal with that matter.

Hon. A. J. CARTER: The Chamber of Corn. meree have recommended a maximum of 250lb.

HoN. M. JENSEN: I am very glad because if my information is correct these 'men are carrying 50 per cent. above that maximum.

Hon. A. J. CARTER: Nearly 100 per cent. in some cases.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBI"IC INSTRUCTION: It is too much even to carry 250-lb. bags.

HoN. M. JENSEN: One other matter which I would like to touch on is a Wages Boards Bill. For my part, I should prefer a Supreme Court judge to be the chairman of the wages board, because he is in such an independent position that he can afford to do the right thing regard­leos of consequences, and regardless of which party he offends ; while the members of the wages board will be timid. and will not be in an mdepcndent position. Certainly the repre­sentatives of the workers on the board will not be independent, because they will only get lOs. for each sitting of the board, and there might be only three sittings in the year. Is it likely that they can occupy such an inde­pendent position as that of a judge of the Supreme Court? Hon. members may remem­ber that about six months ago there was a dispute in Melbourne between contractors and their workmen. It was referred to Mr. Justice Cussens, who, before he became a barrister, was a civil engineer in charge of men. He decidPd in favour of the men, increasing the wages of the bricklayers by 6s., and increasing thf' wages of the carpenters by 4s. a week. My belief is that if that had gone to the wages board they would have compromise.d and made it only one-ha.!£. It would happen the same wa.y in r<>gard to the employers. as they would not get from a wages board a decision to the full extent that they would g-et from a Supreme Court judge. If there are four members of the wages board reprP0enting the employers and four representing the employees, and they differ, then the final decision rests with the chairman, and he is placed in a position which, I contend, a judge of tf:te Supreme Court should be in.

Hox. T. C. BEIRNE: Honourable gentle­men, I do not intend to occupy the time of hon. members more than a few minutes in the remarks I have to make on the Acldres' :n Reply. My first duty is to congratulate you, :\Ir. President, on the houour that has been conferred upon you by His Majesty the King. The honour was welL. deserv-ed, and is but a recognition of the scrvic.fs rendered by you to your native country at a time when it had need of the services of such men as you. After the many speeches that have already been made, I do not think it is either df''irablc or neces­sary for me at this stage of the debate to touch even brieflv on more than two or three of the many paragraphs of the Governor's Speech. In almost all the primarv industries we have had a vear of verv great· prosperitv, and the out­look for the ,;oming season is eminently satis­fnetory. The 7th paragraph of the Speech begins thus-

In ordPr that the influx of new settlers muy keep pace with the increa~ing- opportunitie~ thus to be pro~ vidrd, my adviRers are adopting a liberal immigration policy.

I think it will be admitted by Bvery thinking person that. if we want continued prosperity in this great country of ours, we must have more people here. (Hear, hear!) Now, I am aware that a difference of opinion exists as to the means WB should adopt to induce people to come here. SomB advocate an indiscrimin­ate dumping or 'landing here of thousands of people every month, even if at the cost of those who are settlBd here already. Others--the Labour party, for instance-strongly object to this indiscriminate dumping. Can you blame them for the attitude they take up on this ques<tion? The Labour party rightly 11nd naturally argue like this: They say that the capitalist, whBn he invests his money in manu­facturing enterprises, is protected b:v a high tariff from competition with outside manu-

Hon. T. C. Beirne.J

312 Address in Reply. [COUNCIL.] Add1'ess in Rep'y.

facturers, and therefore ··they cannot see why the labourer, who has nothing but his labour to sell, is not similarly protected. They say: "Is it right to put a 50 per cent. duty on a manufactured article for the protection of the manufacturer or the capitalist and at the same time to admit more laboure~s in free?" To be just we should protect the men as well as the industry. Now, how can we do both? The best class of immigrant is the man who come~ here voluntarily. He has, generally ~pea~mg, more push, more go, more ambition 111 h1_m. . He does not intend to be always workmg !or a boss. He wants to be·his own master--his own employer. Let us encourage su?h a man. Let us encourage immigrants of ~h1s class. and they are to be encouraged or mduced to come here by the good reports of the prosperous condition of those who are already here. Our first duty, then, is to make those who are already here happy, prosperous, and contented. And how are we to do this? Not by Conciliation and Arbitration Acts, not by wages boards-although these are very exce!lent and desirable in their way-but by mal~mg land set~leme?t easy. If every able­bodied worker m this country was assured of a _piece of land whenever he wished to apply for :t,- there wo~tld be no unemployed, there woulu be no stnkes, and there would be no need of wag·es boards, because if the worker did I!O:t get from _his £mployer' the wages and conditiOns he believed he was £ntitled to he could throw up his job and work on his own farm for himself. I rega.rd this question of !and settlement as o£ th£ greatest national ImportancE'. . The Speech says: "Land now locked up will be made available under the Closer Settlement Act." The Closer Settle­ment Act of last session wants amending. The trouble, expense, and delay of acquiring estates under it is altogether too much. An e~sier and simpler method must be found. 'lhen the grPat public estate must be made J.nore accessible. We boast that we.have here 1n Quennsland 400,000,000 acres of unalienated lan?. How much of this land is surveyed, d;esignecl, and ready_ for selection and occupa­tion_? I have no desire to criticise the adminis­tratwn of the Lands Department. On the con­trary, I am willing to give the Secretary for Public Lands every credit for the ~ood work h·3 is doin~ in settling so many people on the land as he Is. But I cannot help thinking that a great d£al more might and ought to be done What is the goodi of our boasted hundreds of millions of acres of land if it is not ready" Our :readin£ss 8hould precede the demand; ou; readmess should also exceed the demand. At ieast 200.000 acres of land in exc-ess of imme­diate requirements should alwa;vs be designed, surveyed, ready. I know I will be told that all available surveyors and designers are fully emp_loyed now, but I would try a means of gettmg more. I would double their salaries if nec£ssary, but I WO'~ld get them. The 5th paragraph of the Spe£ch reads-

In consequence of the satigfactory condition of the public fi~ances, my ndvisers propose ,not only consider-3bly to llghten the bnrden of taxation by an nmend~ ment of the Income Tax Act, but also to reduce our railway rates and f;.j.res, with the view of benefiting and stimulating our producing industries.

I am in full sympathy with those two good proposals. In view of the satisfactory state of our finances, and in view of the extra taxa­tion the Fedeml Government are imposing on us through the Customs, the income tax ought, for the present at any rate to be abolished altogether. With regard' to the railway rates and fares. these were considerably raie-ed a few years ago when

[Hon.T. G. Beirne.

things were bad and when money had to be found somewhere, but the time has now arrived when our back country people-our pri­n1ary producers-should be considered. Railway rates ought to be brought down at least to the level of what they were a few years ago. The primary producer-the man on the land-is the backbone of any country; but in framing th--l new tariff the .Federal Gov.ernment has given very little consideration to him. It behoves this Parliament, then, to see that his new burden is made as light as possible by nducing the railway fares and freights, and by abolishing the income tax. The 17th paragraph of the Governor's Speech reads-

The Factories and Shops Amendment Act of last session will again be introduced. but en this occasion it is deemed desirable to deal with the matter in two Bills, one containing the desired amendment of the Factories and Shops Act. and the other providing for the eRtablishment of wage•, boards.

I am very pleased to see that the Government are going to deal with these important ques­tions in two Bills, instead of as last session, in one. I am, and always have been, in favour of the establishment of wages boards for the regulation of wages, hours of employment, and other conditions of labour. Hon. members will find that when this Bill comes before us, it will have no warmer advocate in this Chamber than myself. Anything to facilitate the passing of such a measure will be cheerfu1ly and freely done by me, but I will watch with jealous and vigilant care any alteration in the early clos­ing provisions of our present Factories and Shops Act.

HONOURABLE GENTLElWEN: Hear, hear!

HoN. W. V. BROWN; Hon. gentlemen, before the debate closes, I would like to say a few words, not so much in review of the past, but to criticise in a very moderate and friendly way the policy of the Government fore­shadowed in the recent Vice-regal Speech, and the number of measures they propose to intro­duce. I think I have noticed that there are something like twenty-one new Bills to be brought before us. Some of these, no doubt, are very desirable measures; one or two, from my point of Yiew, are somewhat objectionable A good many of them, I think, might very well be postponed. I think there is some more im­portant legislation which should be brought before Parliament than a number of what I may call domestic measures, for really the mea­sures proposed to be introduced are in most cases amendments of existing Acts, or pro­posals to provide an amended method of ad­ministration. I call that domestic legislation. That reminds me of a farmer who has valuable wheat crops and valuable flocks of sheep, and yet he spends the whole of his time in beautify. ing his flower garden and neglooting his own interests-the interests that provide his income. In my opinion, what the State requires at the present time may be summed up in two words -namely, railways and people. I think that a little subsidiary legislation is necessary in regard to rabbits and ticks and noxious weeds and so ·'on, and these, I contend, should be reallv made national questions, because they threaten loss of national income. I do not see why a limited class of people should have to bear the burden of safeguarding the country against an invasion of rabbits, the devastation of stock by ticks, and the injury caused by noxious weeds. I have something to do with a station 120 miles north of Cloncurry, and to my sur­prise I found the other day, on investigating some accounts in connection with that station, that in the last six years it paid £900 in rabbit taxation, although there are no rabbits within

Address tn Reply. [20 AUGUST.] .tlddrtss in Reply. 313

hundreds of miles of that country. The other day an hon. gentleman referred to a matter as to whethe~· it was right to pay a large rabbit tax on a statwn close to Mackay. It was stated that the notice came from Roma, and it seemed rather abnormal to my mind that a station close to Port Mackay, which is a sugar district and practically in a sugar district should b~ called upon to pay taxation to a r~bbit board at Roma. It. may be perfectly just, but I contend that _If we have to pay it, the whole of th~ people m t~e Port Mackay district should ~ay It too. I thmk, therefore, that this ques­tiOn ohould be··dealt with from a national point of vie':". ~o doubt the people who are inter­ested m pastoral occupations-farmers and others-should contnbute to it as well but it should be taken in hand bv the Govern;,ent ahd dealt _with from ~ much wider point of v!ew than It IS dealt with at the present time. Now. I ,arc! a few mmutes ago that I think the great and pressing want of this State at the present ti~1e is railways and' people, and I would put railways first. In the Vice-regal Speech we are told that the Government propose to introduce mBasures or introduce proposals for several new lines of railway. Now, as far as I have been able to ascertain these lines of railway are to be built in dis: tricts. in order to settle people on aaricultural land. :wen,_ that ~ay be very desi;able from a certam pomt of view. I will admit that the present Secretary for Public Lands has pro­bably he-en more successful than any of his predecessors in oottling people on the land but we know from experience that what w~ call agricultural lines-lines into new districts ~o promote. farming settlement-do not pay mterest and expeJ1S€s, at anv Tate for some years. I would like the Government to inform me 'how theoo lines are to be paid foT. I am told that there are no less than seventeen new lines of railway being surveyed at the present time, and I presume that money is to he bor­Tm•-ed to build thooo lines. The loss-for there certainly will be a loss-is to be thrown on the benefit-ed area, and thus on thB local authori­ties, but the revenue derived horn the selected land is to go into tht> Treasurv. I understand that during the last two "nd a~hal£ years some­thing like 650 oolectoTs have been settled on the ~and. Xow, I contend that if the whole of those oolBctoTs were concentTated upon one shoTt agTicultural line they would not yield sufficient traffic to pay interest and working expenses on that line.

Hon. C. S. ::YicGHIE: \Vhat about the timber?

HoN. W. V. BROWN: 'l'imber does not exist everywhere. I am willing to admit that in cer­tain districts. wher~ there is a large timber traffic_ these hnes Will very nearly pay, but our expenence teaches us that unless there is a wool traffic, a large stock traffic heavy timber traffic, or mineral traffic, rail ways lines do not pay. As far as my knowledge of the subject goes, tJ:e lines that are paying are the main ~runk hnes, and the subsidiary or Tural lines m very few mstances do pay. I believe there are certain exceptions in timber districts. Timber lines do ,Pay, but, on the whole, I sa;v: these branch hnes are not pTofitable, and If their construction _is going to delay the construction of the more Important trunk lines it would be a very great mistake. I say th~se urban OT rural lines should be built by the local authori­ties; unless the Crown intend to sell the land to. pay for the~. If they c~nnot pay for them Without mcurrmg any additional State debt,

then by borrowing money to pay for them we would be doing a foolish thing, which we would regret in a very short time.

Hon. P. MuRPHY: The districts have to guarantee 3 per cent.

HoN. W. V. BRO\VN: Yes; and I showed conclusively last year that the local authoTities are not in a position, and would not be in a position for many yeaTs to come, .to pay 3 per cent. of the capital value of the hnes. I men­tioned the case of the proposed line to Taroom, in which the intereet charge would be some thousands a 'year, and where the total rates of the division came to only £350 a year. If the settlement was doubled in two or thTee years, which is as much as we can hope for, how could that division pay interest on a line cost­ing £120,000? The pToposition is Tidiculous.

Hon. P. MuRPHY: The people should be the be~t judges.

Hon. P. AIREY: If they cannot pay they will not agitate for the line.

HoN W. V. BROWN: They ceTtainly will not agitate for the line if they cannot pay, but unfortunately the Act provides that_ unless there is a two-thirds majoTity in opposition to the line, it may be built in spite of the people. It is almost impossible to get a two-thiTds majority in the case of a local authority. I do not mean to say that these lines· are not useful. They ceTtainly have the effect of settling people on the land, but they should not be the sole object of the GoveTnment at the pTesent time.. I say there aTe more im­portant lines that are required. The Hon. Mr. Airey, in the course of his speech, men­tioned that there had been certain settlers in his electorate who, in conooquence of the drought, had been compelled to leave the district. Other members speaking during the debate congTatulated the country upon the impTOved condition of its finances consequent upon good seasons, and the Governor's Speech congratulates us in the same way. It is easy to eee from the speeches of hon. members, if we did not know it from our personal obseTvation, that the improved ooasons have been the cause of the great prosperity of the, country. It is entirely a matter of seasons. Therefore, we must admit that bad seaso11s would have ex­actly the reveTse effect. Well, we know that in 1891 we had something like 21,000,000 of sheep in Queensland. In 1902 we had 7,000,000. Therefore, there was a loss of 14,000,000 sheep and neaTly 5,000,000 cattle between those dates. I ask hon. gentlemen if it is possible to have such a destruction of nationa.l capital in any countrv without doing a vast amount of in­jury not only to the revenue but to the people? The value of 14,000,000 shBep cannot be less than £3,500,000, and of 4,500,000 cattle £9,000,000. There we have a Teduction in the national wealth of £12,500,000. Such a thing as that cannot possibly happen without causing disaster to the country. It must cause wid~­spread ruin. I think it was the Hon. Mr. Hinchcliffe who said it was very important to make the countrv attractive if we wanted to induce population to come here, hut at the same timB he did not think it wise to intro­duce population at this juncture. Well, the natural deduction horn his remarks was that the disaster which had overtaken Queensland was to some extent the result of the introduction 'of population at a time when the country was not Teady for it. I want to point out to the hon. p:entleman that it was not the introduc­tion of population that cauood anything of the

Hon. W. V. Brown.]

314 .clddress in Reply. [COUNCIL.] Address in Reply.

kind. It was simply the destruction of our national wealth. You cannot possibly suffer a loss of 10,000,000 of shoop without causing widespread disaster not only to the people who own the stock but to the people who are de­pending on the stock for their livelihood'. If you lose 10,000,000 sheep, which causes a loss of £2,000,000 a year, that is a loss of national income, and surely will have a disastrous effect on the workers of the State. It is not the

introduction of people here which [5 p.m.] causes this large national loss.

The country is languishing for th" want of people at the present time. Well, now, if this terrible loss which is caused by drought has such a prejudicial effect on the condition of the country, surely it is the duty of our administrators to try and do something to pre·vent that loss recurring periodically? There is only one way to do that. People talk about irrigation, and about feeding stock and making stacks of hay in good years, but of course those who have any knowledge of the Y\-estern country know that all that kind of talk is absolute nonsense. How many tons of hay do hon. members suppose it would takil to feed 200,000 sheep, and there are many hold­ings which carry 200,000 sheep? If you go into figures you will find that it will take 75,0()0 tons of hay to feed 200,000 sheep for a year. How many tons of hay, therefore, would it take to feed 15,000,000 sheep for a vear? Even if it was within the means of the pastoralists to provide the necessary amount of hay, the labour of stacking and distributing it would be enormous. To talk of irrigation is equally absurd. \Ve have only one source of water supply in the \Vest and that is arte­sian bores. I believe in the Barcaldine dis­trict the artesian water is ;;ui table for irriga­tion, hut that is the only district I have heard of where it is suitable. The effect of artesitm water in every other district that I know of is to destroy vegetation.

Hon. C. S. ::\leG HIE: In some pla=s it makes vegetables grow. .

HoN. W. V. BROWN: It makes the bul­rushes gro·w.

Hon. C. S. lllcGHIE: Vegetables and other products.

HoN. \V. V. BROWN: Only in the Barcal­dine district as far as I have heard. Irriga­tion, therefore, is quite outside the sphere of practical politics at the present time. There is o_nly one way of guarding against these terrible losses. I saw in one of the metro­politan journals a statement that Mr. Clement Wragge had stated that in the ordinary course of things we would have another serious drought in the year 1913, preceded by several dry years. Hon. gentlemen may laugh, of course, but according to our experience we know that these droughts occur periodically. They always will, and it is not at all impro­bable that we will have another drought in 1913. I do not say "we will, but it is not im­probable. Now, there is another matter to which we shall have to turn our attention in 1913. We will have some very large loans maturing in that year, and if we happen to have a drought at the same time as they mature, I can easily understand that the Trea­surer of Queensland will not have a very happy time. 'I'he bondholders will say, "Either this country is unfavourable for. investment or else it is very obvious that the administrators are unable to take any action to protect our capi­tal." I contend that the proper course to take in a. country like this, which depends so largely on Its flocks and herds and the wool produc-

[Hon. W. V. Brown.

tion, which in Australasia, as one hon. member has said, is of the value of £40,000,000 sterling, is to offer facilities for the saving of those flocks and herds in time of stress. Surely if we have an industry of such enormous value, we should try and safeguard it against these dis­astrous visitations o'f drought. There is only one way to do that, and that is by the con­struction of railways. It seems rather absurd that we should want to promote a number of small lines into agricultural districts when we have the immense issue at stake of trying to preserve our live stock. \V e are building a line to Cloncuny, and I am happy to say that, after a personal visit, the Premier satisfied himself that that is really necessary. Since his visit the work has been carried on with very com­mendable rapidity, and I only wish the Pre­mier would pay a visit to some other mineral districts that I know of in the hope that it would lead to somewhat similar results. The effect of that line will be that stock in that part of the country can be brought round by Hughenden-a circuitous route certainly-as far south as Winton. But \Yinton is one of the driest part of Queensland, and if we want to make provision for the security of stock we ought to connect \Vinton with Longrearh. Some hon. members may have noticed that a. proposal has been recently discussed in vari­OilS leading journals to bring the South Aus-· tralian transcontinental rail way through the \Vestern part of Queensland to Camooweal, and to connect with Port Darwin. That would be a very desirable thing, particularly if the Queensland trunk lines were made to junction w'th the transcontinental railway. That, how­ever, is a matter for years, and, in the m·ean­time, I think it is ·a matter ,of importance that Queensland should, at: a.ny rate. haY<' the means of safeguarding the iarge flocks and herds upon which her prosperity depends. The line which I think it is the most possible for us to construct with our present means is that between Longreach and \Vinton. I am quite sure the present Secretary for Railways, who is a practical man, with a good knowledge of our \Vestern country, wiU agree with me in that, and I was glad to see when a deputation waited on him the either dav that he to some extent admitted the necess\ty for that line, although I regret to say he would not make any promise to carry it out at the present time. It seems to me perfectly ridiculous that we should incur the responsibility of building seventeen lines into agricultural districts on the chance of settling a few fiundred people, and that a great national. work of this kind should be set on one side as if we had nothing to fear from drought. We know very well from our own recollections how many droughts Queensland has had, and we know they must occur again. People assume because we have good seasons now there will never be any more droughts, but, of course, there are going to be more. Anyone who is acquainted with the West of Queensland r0alises that it is subject to periodic drought.

Hon. P. AIREY: A great portion of the \Vest is suffering from drought now.

HoN. W. V, BROWN: That is so. There is nearly always some part suffering from drought, and the peculiarity is that there is nearly always some part not suffering. If during the late big drought we had had a rail­way to Camooweal,' we could have poured 5,000,000 sheep into the Northern Territory, but as we had no railway they had to perish. Of course, we want communication from

Address in Reply. [20 AUGUST.] Address in Reply. 315

Camooweal to Cloncurry, from Cloncurry to Winton, and Winton to Charleville, or a line further West; but I maintain that the line most absolutely required at the present time is one from Longreach to Winton. It is only a little over 100 miles in length, it could be built without straining the resources of the State in any way, and it would be of more real assistance than any other line which could be built at the present moment. Now, I have

laid a good deal of stress upon this particular line. It is, perhaps, to some extent, a hobby of mine. I was instrumental some years ago in getting a resolution passed th1·ough this House in favour of a line to connect the Northern and Southern lines, but I regret to say that, although the evidence in favour of the line was most convincing, nothing has been done up to the present time. I think it is probably want of knowledge on the part of the Premier, who perhaps has not the ulose intimate knowledge with the country that some hon. gentlemen have, and I think if it were brought under his notice, and with the importance that it deserves,. he woul1 probably see his way to make th!s .connectiOn. I really believe that, beca;use I~ Is not only a question of removing stool< m t:mes of Jrought, it is also a question of removmg stock in times of plenty when they ar.e fat and have to be brought to ~arket. There Is another Important point. As soon as the Clo_ncurry line is open, there will be some­thmg hke ~,000 wagons required there, and a correspondmg number of locomotives and the s11ving to the R.ailway. Department 'in ·being able to send all Its rollmg-stock over this line would be something <>normous. to say nothing of the advantag<'s of being able to carry mails through~mt the West<;rn country. We have a large rail way system m Northern Queensland and a large railway system in Central and South~rn Queensland, and, as we have only 120 miles between thes~ two systems, which are not connected by rmlway, it seems to me to be perfectly absurd that the connection is not made. I cannot understand why the Go­vernmen~ do not go o!' with it. I said just now that I thmk the reqmrements of the State are railways and people. Well as I said just now the Minister has probably been more successful than any other Minister that we have had in settling people on the land.

Hon. B. FAHEY: Hear, hear!

HoN. W. V. BRO\'\rN: I am under the impression-perhaps hon. members will correct me if I am wrong-that there· was a return tabled the other day which said that in the last two and a-half years he settled the large number of 659 people on the land. I think that is correct.. If that is all the people we can settle on the land in two and a-half years with the splendid f'xertions made by the Land~ Office during that time, I think we have a;ccomplished very little. Since the Cloncurry hue has been started I believe we have had far more people in the Cloncurry district than the Lands Department settled in Queensland during the last two and a-half years.

Hon. B. F AHEY : Where did they come from?

HoN. W. V. BROWN: I do not quite know exactly, but they came. from all parts of Australia.

Hon. B. FAHE'Y: No; all parts of Queens­land, you mean.

·EtoN. W. V. BROWN: I am perfectly certain that as soon as the Government have finished the construction of that line there

will be an influx of 10,000 people into Cion­curry, and if the Premier could be induced to construct a line from Cloncurry to l\1ount Elliott-there is an hon. gentleman opposite to me who knows all about this district, and he will bear out what I say-if that line from Cloncurry to Mount Elliott, ,-id Hampden, is constructed there will be another 5, 000 people brought into that country, and if the Premier constructs another line from Cloncurry, 50 miles towards Camooweal, it will settle another 5,000 people still. The Etheridge line, the construction of which was sanctioned last year, will place from 5,000 to 10,000 people in that district. If the present Administration could see its way to construct the line from Burke­town to Lawn Hills, I believe there would be another 5,000 to 10,000 people settled there. It appears to me in connection with the con­struction of these· lines-and they. are not going to cost the country anything, as there will be no charge on the Government for loss of intere'lt-that they are going to bring into the country from 20,000 to 30,000 p,eople. Yet we are assu~-ed that these little agricultural lines of railways are of particular importance because we managed in two and a-half years to settle in this State 659 farmers and selectors. Oi course, farmers are very desirable to ~a ve here but we must look at the matter m a broad wav and we will see if it is not far better to "introduce people by thousands. lf thB Government could see their way to pro­mote those lines to the districts that I have spoken of, there will be a much larger incre!'se of population than there would be by spend:ng the money in Southern Queemland. and with­out any extra burden being placed upon the Sta.te. ?\ow I want to say a word or two about settling people on the land. \Ye are told in the Governor's Sneech that the Government desire to accelerate land settlement, and, there­fore, they are having a number ?f railways suneved throughout different d1stncts. Well, it appears to me that this mode of eettlement is rather a one-sided busine;;s. How are these lines going to be paid for? The Government are going to borrow the money, I. presume; they are not allowed to sell land-at any r~te we can take it for granted they are not gomg to sell land-they will borrow the money, an? the interest will be paid by the local aut~on­ties and the revenue from those selectiOns which are opened up is to be receiwd by the Lands Department or by the ~'reasury: I think a better result could be arnved at m a slightly different way, without imposing these burdens upon the 8tate at all. Why should not the Government continue the policy of resum­ing the estates that we have- got along the milway line? I do hot wish to offe~ any cc m­ment whatever upon the re·,umptwn of the large estate that has just taken place, but I would juot say this: that if the Government have resumed 1261000 acres of Jimbour land they will settle more people upon the land when· they get possession .of that estate than ihey will do in two years m the ordmary way of sending people throughout the co~ntry, because there is land there the quahty of which is proved, and it is close· to a railway.

Hon. B. FA HEY: \Ve have bett-er land in the possession of the State now.

HoK. W. V. BRO\VN: I do not think there is better land anvwhere than that.

Hon. B. F AHE~: I can show it to you.

HoN. W. V. BROWN: I think that land will. be taken up rapidly. All the land in the

Hon. W. V. Brown.]

316 Adjou1'nment. [ASSEMBLY.]

Darling Downs will be taken up,''~ it is all good land. '£here is a large amount of land in the Darling Downs and a large amount of good land in West Moreton. Then why should not the Government repurchase that land? The land would be sold as fast as the Govern· ment could offer it. There will be no burden on the ta:<cpayer, and the Government could pay for those estates in debentures. Tbey could redeem those debentures as fast as they becam<> due, and they would be no burden on the State at all. Another advantage is, that· all that land is on an existing railway line, and it should be- the policy of the Administration· in power to make those lines as profit'!-ble as po-.sible. Why sh<mld we try to scatter people broadcast through the country when we have land near ra.ilways if we ·want to go in for close settlement?

Hon. B. FAHRY: In Southern Queensland.

HoN. W. V. BROWN: I do not care in what part of Queensland. Where we have land close to a railway line we should offer the people that land. \Ve have thousands of acres that is known to be good land on the Darling Downs, and it is known to have a good rainfall; the farmers all do well on the land, and why not put more farmers on to that land, and they will also do well? The Talgai Estate was sold privately the other day, and I am told that the land is taken up as fast as it can be sur­veyed, and so would the land be taken up all over the Darling Downs if the Government repurchased it, itnd the same would apply to thil land in \Vest Moreton. The owners d those lands cannot afford to sell on the same terms as the Government. The Government can give terms extending over twenty or thirty years, and the Government can sell land where a private owner cannot. Instead of promoting lines in agricultural districts, the Government should do everything they can to settle people on the land close to the railway lines. That should be the policy of the Government, and it can be carried out without any difficulty what­eve!\ I have taken up more time than I in­tended, and I will not detain hon. gentlemen any further.

HoNOURABLE .GENTLEMEN: Hear, hear! HoN. B. F AHEY: 1 beg to move that the

debate be now adjourned. Question put and passed.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: I move that the resumption of the debate stand an Order of the Day for to­morrow.

Question put and passed.

TEST-'}TORS' FAi\II:CY lVfAIN'l'ENANCE BILL.

FIRST READING.

On the motion of Ho". M. JEKSEN, this Bill, received from the Legislative Assembly, was read a fb;st time, and its second reading made an Order of the Day for to-morrow,

ADJOURNMENT.

'l'ho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: I move that this Council do now adjourn.

Question put anC! passed.

The Council adjourned at twenty-four min­utes past 5 o'clock.

!Hon. W. V. Brown.

Personal Ea:.pla'nation.