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Libraries Bill 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 543

Thursday, 24 November 1988

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. A. J. Hunt) took the chair at 11.3 a.m. and read the prayer.

LIBRARIES BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. C. J.

HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs), was read a first time.

GOVERNOR'S SPEECH Presentation of Address-in-Reply

The PRESIDENT-Order! His Excellency the Governor has advised that he will be pleased to receive the President and members of the Legislative Council at Government House on Wednesday, 7 December, at 11 a.m. for the presentation of the Address-in-Reply. I should be glad if as many members as possible would find it convenient to accompany me at that time.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

DEREGULATION OF PUBLIC HOSPITAL FEES The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-I refer the Minister for Health

to my question yesterday when I asked him whether, during the past business year, he made a submission to Cabinet that canvassed the total deregulation of public hospital fees. Yesterday the Minister said, "No, not that I am aware of". Having had time to reflect on his answer, does the Minister recall the submission and will he provide a full and accurate answer to the question?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-The current situation with private beds in public hospitals is that a fee was set on 1 April 1988 at an average level of $139. It was indicated that the government would be moving to a method of patient categorisation for those fees, which meant that there would be different charges for different categories for both medical patients and surgical patients, but that the average charge for private patients in public hospitals was to be $139, which was well below the charges levied by private hospitals for the same medical and surgical procedures in private hospitals. If a privately insured patient was admitted to a private hospital the benefit would be significantly higher.

The government made it clear when announcing this initiative that it was a Cabinet decision to set the fee at $139, which is below the fees in many States, including New South Wales. The government decided it would not make a further adjustment to that fee before April 1989. Previously there had been fee increases twice each year-in March and September.

Since the Cabinet decision was brought into effect, there have been many discussions with the private health insurance funds and the Private Hospitals Association. A range of views have been expressed about what should occur. One view was that people with private health insurance were being encouraged to use public hospitals because the level of benefit that private insurance funds were paying was lower and that that

544 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Questions without Notice

has created a circumstance where many privately insured patients are using public hospital beds when it might be more appropriate for them to use private hospital beds.

It is also clear that, if a substantial change were made to the level of benefit paid by the private health insurance funds to public hospitals, that would cause serious dislocation of the private health insurance industry because of its lack of capacity to make substantial increases in the level of benefits without the necessity to change the level of premiums, and the consequent impact.

That situation was known and understood in all discussions that occurred in Health Department Victoria, in discussions with the Private Hospitals Association and the private insurance funds and at all times when these matters are discussed at government level. The government does not have any proposals at this stage, nor is there any Cabinet agreement, to move beyond the fee of$139 that is currently being charged.

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-You are confirming that by omission.

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-I am also indicating that the Cabinet will not consider the matter before February or March next year.

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-There is still a submission on the table, isn't there?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-No submission is before the Cabinet at this stage, but the Cabinet will consider this in the normal course of events in February or March 1989.

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Did you withdraw your submission?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-I make it clear to Mr Birrell that the matter was considered prior to April 1988 and a Cabinet decision was made to set the fee at $139. There has been no need to consider it subsequent to that date.

Cabinet will consider it again in February or March next year, and it will not move to deregulate the fees. We have moved towards patient categorisation and we have set an average level of the benefit at $139. It will be considered again prior to any changes being made in 1989.

I need to place on record the fact that the average level offees being charged is $139, and that contrasts more than favourably with the public hospital fee charged for private beds in New South Wales under a Liberal Party administration, which is $165.

DRUG AND CHEMICAL SAFETY EVALUATION CENTRE

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-In view of the reluctance of the selected partner for the government's proposed drug and chemical safety evaluation centre, Applied Bioscience International, to come up with any funds at all for the joint venture, is the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources now proposing that the government provide 100 per cent of the capital; if so, will this additional money be provided through the Victorian Investment Corporation Ltd, and how much is the current estimate of the proposed loan?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-In response to the first portion of the question, the answer is, "No"; in other words, the government is not intending to provide 100 per cent of the capital. I prefer to respond to the second portion of the question by way of a letter in detail.

Questions without Notice 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 545

RENEWABLE ENERGY SOURCES The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU (Doutta Galla Province)-Can the Minister for

Industry, Technology and Resources assure the House of the government's continuing commitment to renewable energy sources and to the role of the Victorian Solar Energy Council?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I thank Mr Landeryou for his question; he shows great concern for the matter of renewable energy-this may be a new Bill Landeryou! I can give him a categoric assurance of the government's continuing commitment to investigating and developing the possibilities of renewable energy.

Victoria produces some of the cheapest energy in the world in the Latrobe Valley from its vast brown coal, oil, and gas resources. Because of those vast resources, one might think that we need not worry too much about research into solar and other forms of energy. Victoria is ahead of all other States of Australia in this regard, and at the Australian and New Zealand Solar Energy Society conference last week it was credited as being the State doing the most in the area of renewable energy research.

The Victorian Solar Energy Council has been in business for approximately eight years. It is Victoria's flag carrier in regard to renewable energy, and I pay tribute to the chairman of the council, Professor Bill Charters, Dean of Engineering at the University of Melbourne. He has been chairman of that body since its inception.

The council has a world-class reputation for its commitment to increasing the utilisation of renewable energy in Victoria. It has had a number of significant achievements. The one that impressed me most in recent times-I think I mentioned it in this House-was its wind energy study, which has led to the establishment of a wind generator at Breamlea, which is feeding into the State Electricity Commission network. Good work has also been done in the remote area power supply study, which examined the provision of consistent power supplies for remote areas of Victoria.

As I said, the energy conference paid tribute to the work Victoria has done. However, we must not rest on our laurels. It is my view that the council should not be called the Victorian Solar Energy Council; its name should be changed to reflect more the breadth of work that it does on renewable energy research. I have asked my department to review the objectives and structure of the council. Its charter must be clearly identified with all forms of renewable energy.

I look forward to the next chapter in Victoria's commitment to renewable energy and energy conservation. I believe, within the life of honourable members in this Parliament, it will be possible to feed into our network energy from a number of different sources-tidal, wind and solar-so that Victoria is seen to be strongly conservationist in the way it generates its power for use by both industry and domestic consumers.

O'DOWD RESEARCH PTY LTD The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-The question I direct to

the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources is similar to the question asked by Mr de Fegely on 15 November concerning O'Dowd Research Pty Ltd. In view of the winding-up application of O'Dowd Research Pty Ltd that is currently before the Supreme Court, will the Minister advise what percentage of equity the Victorian Investment Corporation Ltd has in the company, and what the estimated amount at risk to the corporation is as both a creditor and a shareholder in the research company?


The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)Mrs Tehan is correct in saying that last week Mr de Fegely asked a similar question, to which I replied that I would provide information. The matter is of concern because of details being offered by the Age newspaper this morning following the court hearing. I inform Mrs Tehan that I believe the figures given in the article are correct-namely, that the percentage equity of the Victorian Investment Corporation Ltd in O'Dowd Research Pty Ltd is 80 per cent. In answer to the second part of her question, I reply, as I did to the previous question, by saying that she will receive a letter giving her the full details.

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING IN BUILDING INDUSTRY The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province)-My question to the

Minister Assisting the Minister for Education with responsibility for Post-Secondary Education concerns apprenticeship training for the building and joinery industries. I shall give a brief background to the question. I understand that in the metropolitan area apprenticeship training courses for carpentry and joinery are conducted separately. In the Mildura area the training has traditionally included a combination of both components but, in recent years, apprentices in Mildura have been forced to learn the trades separately.

I have made representations to the Minister requesting a return to the old system whereby apprentices were trained in a combination of both trades at Sunraysia College ofT AFE at Mildura. Is the Minister in a position to inform me and the House whether she has reached a decision on the matter?

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister Assisting the Minister for Education)-I do not think this is a matter of Ministerial decision making or determination. An extensive national survey was conducted on this matter in 1980. That survey identified nine separate types of carpentry and joinery areas of training and, following that extensive consultation, two broad streams were set up. They were housing and industrial-the carpentry part, and joinery stair-building and shopfitting-the joinery part.

In the current situation an apprentice takes either of those two streams, depending on the arrangement he has with his employer and the needs of the employer. I am told that this situation suits the majority of employers and that little complaint has been received about it, although I understand that it is not regarded as suitable in some country areas.

If, as Mr Wright says, there is a real movement from employers in favour of this kind of change, the solution is for them to take action through the body that represents them, because it was the peak bodies that were party to the decision being made about this new kind of education. Although I am happy to seek more specific advice from him later, I suggest he take that answer back to his constituency and make it clear that, if it is not appropriate in the area concerned, some variation should be sought.

ASBESTOS The Hon. B. W. MIER (Waverley Province)-I direct a question to the Minister

for Housing and Construction. As a former employee in the building and construction industry I became aware over the years of the dangers from the application of asbestos in that industry. I have also learnt that this hazardous material can be applied in a hazardous manner in certain circumstances, and that a less hazardous method can also be used. I ask the Minister to advise the House what steps he has taken to ensure


that his Ministry protects the health and safety of its clients and its employees against the hazards of contact with asbestos.

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-I acknowledge Mr Mier's direct experience with the issue. I have observed that a number of people have expressed concern in recent weeks about asbestos in Ministry of Housing and Construction dwellings. The former Public Works Department established a unit to deal with asbestos removal some three and a half years ago. The amalgamated department now has coverage in both areas. Asbestos in a free form such as lagging for pipes is the most dangerous rather than the more common form of asbestos found in cement sheets. That latter type has been prevalent in its usage for many years in the building industry and exists in a number of dwellings.

The removal of both types of asbestos requires care. The asbestos unit has a fine reputation and acceptance by the union movement and others in the industry of the way that it tackles the task. By and large, it is acknowledged that asbestos in the form of cement sheets is often best left alone if in a stable situation. If it must be removed, due care must be exercised in its removal, particularly in the use of power tools which might fragment it and release the fibres.

The Ministry of Housing and Construction is aware of the concern about asbestos in all forms. A bulletin has been issued to regional managers and clients informing them of guidelines on the types of asbestos. Thou~h helpful, the bulletin does need upgrading. My Ministry is in the process of consultIng with the industry, with unions and with tenants groups in order to publish a much more informative bulletin to ensure that everyone is clear about what danger is involved and the measures that must be taken in the handling of asbestos.

As the responsible Minister, I am committed to protecting the health and safety of clients and workers involved in operations of the Ministry. At the same time I am concerned when people raise the issue of asbestos in a way that unnecessarily disturbs people. It is an important issue but one that needs to be properly mana~ed so that people are not unduly alarmed when they are living in a perfectly safe SItuation. If changes are to be effected, appropriate measures need to be taken to ensure that noone is in danger.

MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION RENTAL COLLECTION

The Hon. R. S. de FEGELY (Ballarat Province)-I ask the Minister for Housing and Construction: considering the National Australia Bank Ltd has been chosen by his Ministry to undertake rental collectiori from Ministry of Housing and Construction tenants and that contracts with existing agents are due to expire early in December, have all branches of the National Australia Bank Ltd been notified of their future responsibilities? Will they be geared to cope with the additional workload, and can the Minister categorically state that country tenants will not be disadvantaged by the change?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-I thank Mr de Fegely for the question, which has previously been asked in a slightly different way on two occasions in the House. The situation of change where banks were invited to participate in the collection of rent was put to public tender. The National Australia Bank Ltd was the successful tenderer, on the basis of both price and the services and coverage it could offer. That process is well in train. All necessary negotiations have been put into place.


As I said in answer to a previous question in relation to country areas, I am taking steps to ensure that no tenant is disadvantaged in terms of amenity and ability to pay rent where there is no coverage. In an area where it appears that a gap exists in coverage by the National Australia Bank Ltd, I am taking steps to ensure that that situation is met by using another agent, which could be another bank, a post office or a continuation of a contract with an existing estate agent.

The Hon. R. S. de Fegely-Another case of the government not doing its homework.

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-That process is being carefully carried out. In all cases where this change has been introduced, there has also been a period of review. The number of outlets in the south-eastern area has increased from some 25 to more than 95. People now have the ability to pay at other banks and to have their rent automatically deducted from their accounts, if they so desire. They can also mail in their rent, which is clearly an advantage to tenants. This is an important initiative, and it also provides a considerable saving to the government.

I do not know why Opposition members, who ought to be interested in efficiency, are persisting in putting forward a proposal that could be four or five times as expensive as this change. The initiative will provide a better service to tenants and has been carefully implemented.

EAGLE HA WK HIGH SCHOOL The Hon. R. A. BEST (North Western Province)-As the Minister Assisting the

Minister for Education will be aware, for the past eight years Eaglehawk High School has ~en interested in constructing a gymnasium and assembly hall. It is one of the largest schools in the State, with some 800 students. I ask the Minister about the school's progress in getting this gymnasium and assembly hall area and whether it has been listed as a major priority.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister Assisting the Minister for Education)-Mr Best gave me notice of this question, and I had the opportunity of speaking with the Minister for Education to obtain an update on the position of the Eaglehawk High School.

Eaglehawk High School is disadvantaged in terms of this gymnasium and assembly hall area. If a total assembly of the school is to be conducted, it must be done outside. If it is a long assembly the students have to sit on the concrete. That is not good for the students or the school.

Unfortunately, some years ago a good gymnasium or ecacentre was built 1 or 2 kilometres away from the school. Although people may have thought the school would have ready and easy access to that gymnasium, it transpires that it is just a little too far away for easy school access and purpose. I acknowledge, as does the Minister for Education, that Eaglehawk High School has a problem.

As honourable members will be aware, the process for major capital works is determined through regional boards and, in particular, through subcommittees of regional boards. In recognition of the fact that Eaglehawk High School has a specific problem, together with several other schools in the region, the Loddon Campaspe-Mallee Regional Board of Education subcommittee has put aside some $200 000, so that if there is some opportunity for joint funding-if funding can be attracted from other government departments-at least the money will be there to start a project. That has not happened before, and it is an innovation for the regional board. I repeat: that sum of money has been put aside.


Eaglehawk High School is not the only school that will be looking for some consideration but at least there is some light at the end of the tunnel in finding a solution to the problem that I readily acknowledge the school has.

BUSH NURSING HOSPITALS The Hon. D. E. HENSHA W (Geelong Province)-I refer to the Minister for Health

a problem that arose several weeks ago when some private health insurance funds threatened to withdraw the coverage of fees paid for certain elderly patients in bush nursing hospitals. What action has the government taken to ensure the rights of those elderly patients and where appropriate to ensure they remain in the bush nursing hospitals?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-Since the matter was last raised in the House, proposed legislation has been introduced in the Federal House of Representatives and I presume debate on that measure will resume today. I look forward to the Bill being passed in both the House of Representatives and the Senate. Some of the health benefit funds have already commenced reimbursing the bush

·.."nursing hospitals. I am pleased that that has commenced so that the expectations many privately insured patients had when they went into the bush nursing hospitals that they would be reimbursed for nursing home care will be fulfilled.

I take this opportunity of drawing the attention of honourable members to remarks made in the House of Representatives by the Federal Minister for Community Services and Health, Dr Blewett, on 9 November as reported at page 2665 of Federal Hansard.

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Do you model yourself on Blewett? Hansard should record the Minister shaking his head!

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-Dr Blewett's statement in the House of Representatives made it clear that he was looking forward to having a mix of services provided in small country towns. Therein lies a major opportunity for a number of bush nursing hospitals. Not only are they now providing in many cases an excess of nursing home beds but also it is becoming clear that the Commonwealth government will provide an opportunity of allowing an increased range of services to be provided within the bush nursing context. This will include the provision of privately insured beds, the prospect of more nursing home beds, and the possibility of discussing with the Commonwealth government hostel beds and, in certain circumstances, acute care beds.

We look forward to the proposed legislation being passed through Federal Parliament and to further discussions with bush nursing hospitals to ensure the appropriate mix of hospital beds is provided where bush nursing hospitals are located.

PRINCE HENRY'S HOSPITAL The Hon. REG MACEY (Monash Province)-Will the Minister for Health

undertake that no sale of the site of Prince Henry's Hospital will occur without the prior approval and knowledge of Parliament?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-The future of the site of Prince Henry's Hospital is a matter that concerns my colleague, the Minister responsible for major projects. The Crown Lands Act constrains the government from selling part of that property; the provision requires Parliamentary approval or an amendment to the principal Act for that site to be sold. No doubt, Mr Macey is aware of that.


That being the case, Mr Macey would be aware that it is a matter for Parliament to consider at the appropriate time, which is when the major projects activities are in place and are ready to deal with the future of the Prince Henry's Hospital site.

INTERPRETING SERVICES BUREAU The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley Province)-Can the effervescent Minister

for .Ethnic Affairs inform the House about the role of the Interpreting Services Bureau within the Ethnic Affairs Commission? More importantly, can the Minister specify what are the major demand languages and the main departments that are serviced?

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-The other day in the House I mentioned the Legal Interpreting Service. The Interpreter Services Bureau involves general interpreting. This service was transferred to the East Melbourne location of the Ethnic Affairs Commission in 1986 and it provides interpreting services to public sector agencies, local government and community organisations. It covers a range of interpreting requirements.

The Interpreting Services Bureau has an average of 80 assignments each month. The major demand these days is for Spanish, which I imagine reflects the number of new arrivals, especially from Central and South America, Vietnamese, Italian, Turkish, Arabic, and Greek.

The bureau also services a number of government departments including Community Services Victoria, the Department of Labour, the Ministry of Housing and Construction, and the Road Traffic Authority. The bureau has fairly lean resources, but manages to provide an excellent service. It is hoped that in the fairly near future the bureau will be able to make some inroads into non-metropolitan Victoria where pockets of need also exist.

PORTLAND AND DISTRICT HOSPITAL . The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-The Minister for Health will recall that the Portland community welcomed his commitment of capital funds for the large-scale redevelopment of the Portland and District Hospital. Will the Minister confirm that this work will go to tender in the first half of 1989, as previously promised, and that the longstanding and long-recognised staffing shortages at the hospital will be remedied in the near future?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-As I have said to the Portland and District Hospital on previous occasions, and especially at the time when the commitment was made, we look forward to the hospital completing the design work as soon as possible. When the design work has been completed and discussions have been held with Health Department Victoria and the regional office, we look forward to tenders being let~ We have not yet heard from the hospital about the progress it is making in the design work.

On the staff situation, as Mr Chamberlain would be aware, we are mindful of the number of acute beds per head of population in the region he represents as well as the need to take account of isolated communities in determining the appropriate number of acute beds. We are also mindful of the need to continue to meet the requirements of Portland by the reallocation of resources within the region to overcome staff problems. I look forward to Mr Chamberlain's continuing support in bringing about an effective reallocation.

Command Paper 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 551

REUNION OF VIETNAM VETERANS The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-I refer to the Leader of the

Government the reunion of the Vietnam veterans held in Melbourne last month. The reunion was organised by Victorian veterans and, although many honourable members on this side of the House were bitterly opposed to the Vietnam war and Australia's participation in it, they feel some obligation to the families of young men who gave their lives, and to the health of others who were engaged in the conflict.

The reunion was very successful inasmuch as it attracted 100000 Vietnam veterans and their families, as well as many people from overseas. Unfortunately, because of the weather and other problems, it was not the financial success that was hoped and, consequently, the organisers are considerably in debt.·

In view of the fact that the Victorian government contributed $5000 towards the $50000 originally asked for, will it give consideration to further assistance because, I understand, some of the Vietnam veteran organisers are being forced to sell their houses to cover the debt incurred by the reunion?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)That issue has been handled by the Premier. I think it is only proper that I should refer the question asked by Mr Mackenzie to the Premier for a response.

COMMAND PAPER The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)

presented, by command of His Excellency the Governor, the report of the Supreme Court judges for the year 1987.

I t was ordered that the report be laid on the table.

On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the report be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

AIDS The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-By leave, I move: That there be laid before this House a copy of the policy discussion paper entitled "AIDS: A Time to

Care, A Time to Act".

I look forward to honourable members receiving a copy of the discussion paper and responding to the Commonwealth government before March or April next year.

The motion was agreed to.

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health) presented the paper in compliance with the foregoing order.

It was ordered that the paper be laid on the table.

On the motion of the Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the paper be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

VICTORIAN TAXATION The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-By leave, I move: That there be laid before this House a copy of a Summary of Victorian Taxation, 1988-89, including

the report of the Commissioner of Land Tax, pursuant to the Land Tax Act 1958.

552 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Legal and Constitutional Committee


The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health) presented the summary in compliance with the foregoing order.

It was ordered that the summary be laid on the table.

On the motion of the Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province), it was ordered that the summary be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

PORTLAND SMELTER AND ALUMINIUM SMELTERS OF VICTORIA

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-By leave, I move: That there be laid before this House a copy of-

(a) the Portland Smelter Unit Trust financial statements for the year 1986-87; and

(b) the Aluminium Smelters of Victoria Pty Ltd report for the year 1987-88.


The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health) presented the reports in compliance with the foregoing order.

It was ordered that the reports be laid on the table.

On the motion of the Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province), it was ordered that the reports be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL COMMITTEE Subordinate legislation

The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province) presented the thirteenth report from the Legal and Constitutional Committee on subordinate legislation (Statutory Rules Nos 73 and 292 of 1988) together with appendices.

It was ordered that they be laid on the table and be printed.


NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE South-Western Region water management

The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON (Higinbotham Province) presented an interim report from the Natural Resources and Environment Committee upon South-Western Region water management strategy, together with an appendix.

It was ordered that they be laid on the table and be printed.

On the motion of the Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province), it was ordered that the report be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

Papers 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 553

PAPERS The following papers, pursuant to the directions of several Acts of Parliament, were

laid on the table by the Clerk: Attorney-General's Department-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88. Conservation, Forests and Lands Department-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88. Guardianship and Administration Board-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88. Health Promotion Foundation-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88. Law Reform Commission-

Report on Sexual Offences Against People with Impaired Mental Functioning. Report on Principles for Occupational Regulation: Occupational Regulation Report No. 2.

Ombudsman-Report for the year 1987-88. Planning and Environment Act 1987-Notices of approval of the following amendments to planning

schemes: Bulla Planning Scheme-Amendment L2. Dundas Planning Scheme-Amendment Ll. Huntly Planning Scheme-Amendment L6. Pyalong Planning Scheme-Amendments L2 to L4. Rosedale Planning Scheme-Amendment L17. Tambo Planning Scheme-Amendment L4. Traralgon (City) Planning Scheme-Amendment L4.

Public Advocate-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88. Young Farmers Finance Council-Report for the year 1987-88.

On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the reports tabled by the Clerk be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

BUSINESS FRANCHISE ACTS (AMENDMENT) BILL The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time.

The Bill is virtually the same as the Bill which was introduced into Parliament on 2 August 1988 and which lapsed when Parliament was dissolved. The most important changes relate to a later date of 1 December 1988 for the introduction of the proposed new scheme.

The purpose of the Bill is to remedy some technical deficiencies in the business franchise legislation which were identified by a recent High Court decision concerning the importation of tobacco from Queensland by Victorian retailers. In that decision a majority of four out of seven judges found that the Victorian legislation offended against section 92 of the Constitution. In the majority view the legislation discriminated against Victorian retailers who purchased from Queensland wholesalers in the course of interstate trade.

Victorian retailers had to pay the ad valorem tobacco licence fee of 30 per cent if they purchased from interstate wholesalers whereas if they purchased tobacco from licensed Victorian wholesalers, they did not. However, a retailer who purchased from a licensed Victorian wholesaler had the licence fee passed on to him in the wholesale price. The retailer would pay the 30 per cent either directly or indirectly and should therefore not prefer Victorian wholesalers over Queensland wholesalers on the grounds of the fee. Nevertheless, in view of the High Court decision it is necessary to amend the legislation to ensure that there is no discriminatory aspect regarding the imposition oflicence fees in the form as well as the substance of the legislation.

It is, of course, essential to protect Victoria's business franchise revenues, which amount to approximately $350 million annually. Tobacco franchise fees have been

554 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Business Franchise Acts (Amendment) Bill

levied in Victoria since 1974, and business franchise fees are now levied in all jurisdictions except Queensland, which will itself introduce a tobacco franchise fee from 1 January 1989. The existence of a tobacco franchise fee in Queensland will make the Victorian legislation easier to enforce, but it will not alter the requirement to amend the legislation to ensure that it is constitutionally sound.

Under the amended legislation it will not be necessary for wholesalers to be licensed. However, if they elect to be licensed they submit to the provisions of the legislation and must comply with the various requirements regarding such matters as the keeping of records, production of invoices on sales, and assessment provisions.

Unlike the existing legislation, the amended legislation will apply to all wholesalers inside and outside Victoria who sell tobacco or petroleum products for resale or consumption in this State. The ad valorem fees for tobacco and petroleum licences are unaltered.

To ensure that licensed wholesalers' operations are not unnecessarily disrupted, the amendments provide that the commissioner must not refuse to issue a licence to a wholesaler if the sole point of dispute about the appropriate licence fee centres on whether or not the wholesaler knew or believed a product sold to a retailer was for resale or consumption outside Victoria.

The value of any product resold or consumed outside Victoria may, of course, be excluded from the calculation of licence fees. Also, provision has been made to enable wholesalers to exclude the value of a product which a retailer has advised, prior to the relevant licence period, has been resold outside Victoria. The only exception to this is if a retailer makes a false statement and the wholesaler knows it to be false.

Under the amendments a retailer must be licensed to carry on a retailing business and will pay the relevant ad valorem licence fee if purchases are made from unlicensed wholesalers. However, this provision is not discriminatory even in form. The amended legislation will apply to all wholesalers whether within or outside Victoria.

Substantial penalties have been introduced or have replaced existing lesser fines to reflect the government's determination that cheating under the business franchise legislation will not be tolerated. Evasion not only undermines revenue but it cripples the trade of honest competitors.

The search warrant and seizure provisions of the legislation have been extended to include the searching and seizure of products from trucks and other vehicles which bring tobacco or petroleum products from another jurisdiction. These powers are needed because it remains possible to purchase these goods in other jurisdictions at prices which do not reflect the franchise fees payable, thereby declaring that the goods are for resale in another State, and subsequently to evade the Victorian franchise fee. The power of seizure will, of course, be used only where there is clear evidence of evasion.

To further assist in the enforcement of the legislation the Bill makes appropriate amendments to extend the existing averment provisions of the Act such as those in section 19E (1) to accommodate the new scheme. The government is determined that, as in the past, there will be vigorous enforcement of the amended legislation and a crackdown on deliberate schemes to avoid or evade business franchise fees.

Clauses 27 and 38 of the Bill ensure that any tobacco or petroleum products purchased from unlicensed wholesalers in the period between the High Court decision on 7 June 1988 and the commencement of the new scheme on 1 December 1988 will attract the relevant ad valorem licence fee. This is in accordance with the government's

Victorian A~ts Centre (Amendment) Bill 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 555

intention, as announced in press releases and as made widely known in the tobacco and petroleum products trades. There is, of course, no new charge involved. The provisions simply make collectable the fee imposed by the then existing legislation.

I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until later this'day.

VICTORIAN ARTS CENTRE (AMENDMENT) BILL The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time.

The following is an extract from the Victorian Arts Centre Trust's policy, published in April 1982:

The Victorian Arts Centre holds the strong belief that it should apply the best possible business practices to its revenue-earning activities, to make them profitable and thus help reduce the gap to be met by the public purse. Profit centres such as car parking, catering, computer ticket selling, souvenir merchandising and guided tours will be encouraged and promoted with commercial vigour, to help support those creative activities which cannot, should not, and are not expected to be profitable.

In its relatively short history the trust has achieved a high measure of success with the business side of its operations, a result which serves to back up the annual funding made by the government to the running of the centre.

The government believes the trust needs more flexibility than is currently provided under its Act in order to achieve even greater total efficiency for its ticketing operations, to give the best possible service to the public. The flexible arrangements for ticketing services which this Bill provides are designed to produce that greater total efficiency without lessening the requirements of proper reporting and accountability to government.

The Victorian Arts Centre trustees are, in essence, directors of a very large and complex business enterprise, with an operating income of more than $25 million. Of its total operating income the centre earns 82 per cent from sources other than government. There isa wide range of activities and services, many of which are of a commercial nature. For example, the BASS Victoria ticketing operation is the largest of its kind in the Southern Hemisphere, with a budgeted target of 4 million tickets this year, having a ticket face value totalling about $110 million. The Victorian Arts Centre Trust's revenue from this activity is estimated at $5·19 million in booking fees and service charges.

The budgeted net contribution from BASS to the Victorian Arts Centre's income this year is $910 000; the profit from catering is targeted at $938 173, and from car parking at $1 million. This total of nearly $3 million from business operations helps to provide for the running of the centre-$3 million which would otherwise need to be provided by the people of Victoria to properly maintain the centre.

The centre plays a very active part in the artistic life of the citizens of Victoria and is certainly not an elitist body, catering, as it does, for people of all ages, educational backgrounds and interests. In a recent survey by the Bulletin, the centre was the first institution named, and it had rated fifth overall of the most popular things to do in Melbourne.

556 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Building Control Bill

The arts centre employed 4221 Australian artists during the last financial year, making it the largest single employer in the entertainment industry in Victoria. The centre itself produced 39 per cent of events that were staged; 78 per cent of the artists used for paid performances were Australian. The centre is open 125 hours a week, with only 6 hours a day when it is not being used. More than 14 000 people pass through the centre each weekend, and nearly 200000 school children attended performances there during the past year. The aim of the centre is to make available the broadest range possible of performing arts activities and to provide a good atmosphere for the artists.

For the past two years the trust has been manager of the former Elizabethan Melbourne Orchestra-now the State Orchestra of Victoria. The main responsibility of the orchestra is to service the needs of the Australian Opera, the Australian Ballet and the Victoria State Opera. The orchestra is also appearing on the concert platform and has played a major part within this year's Melbourne Summer Music Festival. The in-house designed hydraulic flying system for the movement of scenery on stage has been noted throughout the world as a technological breakthrough developed in Victoria, with the potential for major export earnings in Europe and North America.

The aim in developing the existing business operations of the trust is to complement artistic activity by giving financial support. The contribution from these business operations provides a substantial backup to government funding and reduces the amount to be provided by the government and the public.

The computerised ticketing operation is the biggest in Australia and for subscription processing is the biggest in the world. There is a network of box offices throughout the metropolitan area with a large telephone operation. Telephone bookings to BASS Victoria can originate from any point in Australia. The telephone room is to be extended to include telemarketing. The main business started with theatre ticketing and now includes sporting events-cricket, the Victorian Football League, the National Tennis Centre, and Olympic Park-and also the leisure area, for example, the zoo.

Already BASS Victoria has the capacity to expand nationally. The Bill is designed both to clarify the existing powers of the Victorian Arts Centre and to give it the power to expand its ticketing operations to areas outside Victoria, thus earning valuable export dollars from other States. These amendments to the Victorian Arts Centre Act are intended to give the trust the ability to operate with the speed and flexibility necessary to make productive decisions.


On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until later this day.

BUILDING CONTROL (PLUMBERS, GASFITTERS AND DRAINERS) (AMENDMENT) BILL

The debate (adjourned from the previous day) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White (Minister for Health) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Central Highlands Province)-The Opposition does not oppose the Bill but it is such an important Bill that some points should be made. Those points lend themselves to a hidden agenda in the Bill. The Opposition is encouraged by some of that hidden agenda and by the harmony and the new-found

Building Control Bill 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 557

peace in the trade union movement involved in the building industry. It is to be applauded that those unions intend to decrease the number of demarcation disputes.

However, it seems that the unions involved are unlikely bedfellows-metalworkers and plumbers. Maybe they have found this new peace because of the actions ofHawke, Keating, Crean and Kelty and are following in their steps. If so, that is leading them to a sensible resolution of their differences. The romance between the unions involved in the dispute over the work on building sites has continued for four years. It would seem that the wedding is not far away.

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-It won't be a white wedding.

The Hon. G. R. CRAIGE-We hope they have a long and happy marriage when this Bill is passed. If the Bill has a hidden agenda and the building industry were to incur additional costs as a result, that would be of concern. As the Bill appears on face value to settle all these problems, it is to be applauded. However, I cannot help but wonder whether the Bill is really a sop to the factions within the Labor Party. John Halfpenny spat the dummy because the plumbers obtained some of the metalworkers' work. Deals were done. Plumbers continue to control the work on building sites but it seems that the Bill satisfies Mr Halfpenny and his brow has been smoothed.

The Hon. B. W. Mier-Ifyou went onto a building site you might learn something.

The Hon. G. R. CRAIGE-Mr Mier did not learn anything during the time he was there. We support the proposal in the Bill that plumbing work to be done on building sites will be determined by the prescribed authorities. That is the right way to go.

In conclusion, I have been advised by my colleague, Mr Smith, that the plumbing industry has been looking forward for some years to this matter being resolved. Honourable members all know ofMr Smith's experience in the industry. .

The Hon. G. R. CRAWFORD (Jika Jika Province)-I support the Bill. I was interested in the comments made by Mr Craige. I am sure honourable members are aware that he has a vivid imagination. The real situation is that the reorganisation of the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainers Registration Board was brou$ht about through amendments to the Building Control (Plumbers, Gasfitters and DraIners) Act. All the Bill does is update and extend that Act.

In the process, the Question of a metalworker working on industrial pipelines came under scrutiny. That necessitated delay in the proclamation of some provisions of the Building Control (Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainers) Act 1985. That delay was caused by concerns about future developments arising from the Act. It was not intended to alter any situation but, to allay people's fears, negotiations proceeded and agreement was reached that should meet all future concerns about the operation of the Act. Accordingly, I support the Bill.

There is no need to make a long speech on the matter, especially in view of the business with which the House must deal during this sessional period, except to say that it is urgent for the Bill to be passed because of the imminent entry into a triennium period of renewals for registration of all plumbers, gasfitters and drainers in Victoria. The proclamation of the relevant provisions of the Building Control (Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainers) Act 1985 is necessary to enable the new board to operate fully and effectively.

Other aspects of the Bill have been extensively dealt with by Parliament and have been adopted previously. Accordingly, I support the Bill.

The Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern Province)-I agree with previous speakers that the Bill is important in effecting proper plumbing procedures in the building

558 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Building Control Bill

industry. The Bill does nothing more than tidy up some of the bits and pieces in the principal Act.

Speaking on behalf of employers, I raise no objection to the Bill. In fact, the quicker it goes through, the better.

The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Gee long Province)-I indicate independent support for the Bill. It gives me pleasure to speak on behalf of the biggest professional group in Parliament-plumbers-and to point out that any Bill on plumbing seems to bring smiles to the faces of people in Parliament and elsewhere. I guess the plumbing fraternity has been the butt of many jokes over the years.

Perhaps you, Mr President, and some of the more senior members of Parliament would recall Professor WaIter Murdoch, who wrote a series of newspaper articles in the late 1950s and 1960s. He was once asked a question about plumbers forgetting their tools and he said that plumbers were the mainstay of civilisation and that the sophistication and development of any civilisation could be gauged on its plumbing. As a young plumber, I remember being the butt of many jokes about the profession. I hung onto those words of Professor WaIter Murdoch and if any criticism came up about plumbers I always quoted him.

The Bill highlights the need to ensure that any work relating to public water supply or any aspect of public health is placed in the hands of the people best able to handle it. While honourable members may laugh and perhaps believe that in many cases the average person can undertake his or her own plumbing work, they should be wary in thinking that. Many problems can arise if people undertake plumbing work for which they are not trained. Enormous costs are connected with problems that arise in water supplies. Water supplies can be poisoned and result in death in the community, as has happened overseas and could happen in Australia, with people working indiscriminately on plumbing systems.

Some honourable members, particularly Mr Crawford, have said there has been some conflict on the matters covered by the Bill. I am glad that many problems have been .sorted out and now we have clear guidelines relating to plumbing work associated with water supplies and public health. Those areas will now be in the charge of people who have the necessary knowledge and training to do the work properly.

I support the Building Control (Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainers) (Amendment) Bill and I wish it a speedy passage through the House.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The National Party is not opposed to the legislation, but lest the rosy picture of harmony painted by Mr Crawford be thOUght by others to be universal and factually based, I indicate it was not.

The Hon. D. R. White-This is obviously not a plumber speaking; all the other speakers have been plumbers!

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-The preparation of the Bill was difficult and led to machinations in the government party and in the trade union movement. I observed in the last session of Parliament prior to the election the extraordinary agitation generated over the Bill among a couple of members, one of whom-unfortunately for her-is no longer with us in this House. On one occasion, when that former member thOUght she had missed the debate and the vote, she was apprehensive as to her future. It is certainly not true to say that all has been sweetness and light in the preparation of the proposed legislation.

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-There is a lot beneath the surface!

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-The Bill solved a demarcation dispute.

Building Control Bill 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 559

The Hon. R. I. Knowles-And had Mr Kennan transferred to the other place!

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-It might have had something to do with the demise of the former honourable member for Broadmeadows; I do not know.

The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Get back on your plough!

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-I am opposed to industrial disputes of any nature, but if there is one type of industrial dispute that causes more disruption than others, it is, of course, a demarcation dispute. Not only does a demarcation dispute set worker against worker but it also detrimentally affects innocent third parties, who cannot get their goods to market.

Mr Landeryou laughs. He does not appreciate and understand the heartache caused to primary producers of this nation through demarcation disputes which frequently have stopped them getting their wool onto the ships or wheat to the silos at Geelong. The export income and future of the nation have been put at stake through such disputes, which have been based not on health and safety issues, or on money issues or on disputes about benefits or entitlements, but simply on demarcation issues between two unions. Usually it is because of some dispute between two union leadersa matter of little consequence to the members of the respective unions.

The amount of financial or other damage caused in the past has been disgraceful in its effect on individuals and the nation as a whole. It is distressing that Parliament must be used to resolve demarcation disputes. It is to be hoped that the situation will not arise very often in the future.

Having said that, I am prepared to endorse the proposed legislation because it appears to give legislative approval to some deal that has been worked out along the way.

The Hon. B. W. MIER (Waverley Province)-I shall be extremely brief. I seek to enlighten Mr Baxter.

The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-That will take years!

The Hon. B. W. MIER-I inform Mr Baxter that unfortunately there were attempts to create a demarcation dispute out of the Bill, which was not designed to do that at all. As I said, it was unfortunate that certain people attempted to create a dispute.

Certain groups are owed an apology on behalf of the government. I refer to the employer group, the Master Plumbers and Mechanical Services Association of Victoria, and the employee organisation, the Plumbers and Gasfitters Employees Union of Australia, who have waited for so long for this Bill to be introduced.


The Bill was read a second time.

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-By leave, I move: That this Bill be now read a third time.

In so doing, I thank honourable members for their support. In particular, I thank Mr Crawford for his patience in respect of the introduction of this measure.

The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time.

560 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Estimates Committee

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE The message from the Legislative Assembly transmitting a resolution relating to the

Estimates Committee was taken into consideration.

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)The resolution agreed to by the Assembly was:

1. That a Joint Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report upon the annual Estimates of Receipts and Payments and any additional or supplementary Estimates of Receipts and Payments presented to the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council and referred to the committee by resolution of the Council and the Assembly from time to time.

2. That the committee may in addition inquire into and report on the efficiency, effectiveness and economy of the administration of particular programs and items of expenditure contained in Appropriation Bills or on any other matter arising out ofthe Estimates.

Priority to Parliamentary References

3. That the committee shall give priority to such investigations referred to it by resolution ofthe Council and the Assembly.

Time Period for Reporting

4. That the resolution referring Estimates to the committee for inquiry and report shall fix a day by which the committee shall report its findings to each House.

Membership

5. That the committee shall consist of eight members, comprising not more than six members of the Council and not more than six members of the Assembly.

Quorum

6. That four members ofthe committee shall constitute a quorum of the committee.

Chairman

7. That the committee shall elect one ofthe government members of the committee to be chairman.

8. That the chairman shall have a deliberative vote and, in the event of an equality of votes, shall have a casting vote.

Deputy Chairman

9. That the committee may elect a deputy chairman who shall exercise all the powers and perform all the duties of the chairman at any time when the chairman is not present at a meeting of the committee.

Sitting Times and Places

10. That the committee may sit in such places in Victoria as seems most convenient for the proper and speedy despatch of business.

11. The committee shall not sit while either House is actually sitting except by leave of that House and may not, while either House is actually sitting, sit in any place other than a place that is within the Parliament buildings.

Partici pation of N on-Mem bers

12. That members of either House, not being members of the committee, may participate at the discretion of the chairman in any public hearing at which evidence is given and witnesses are examined but shall not vote, move any motion or be counted for the purpose of a quorum.

Procedure of the Committee

13. That the committee may ask for explanations from Ministers from either House, and from public servants and other relevant persons relating to items of proposed expenditure.

14. That the committee may send for persons, papers and records and report minutes of evidence from time to time.

15. That the committee shall unless it otherwise resolves take all evidence in public.

16. That the committee shall keep a record of all evidence given before it and determinations made by it.

Estimates Committee 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 561

17. That the committee have the power to authorise publication of any evidence given before it in public and any document presented to it subject to the consideration of the views of the relevant Ministers.

Use of Consultancy Services

18. That the committee may, with the prior approval of the Treasurer and the Speaker, commission any person or persons to investigate and report to the committee on any aspect of a proposal, matter or thing being inquired into or being considered by the committee.

Discussion Papers/Reports

19. That the committee may publish discussion papers and present interim reports to the Parliament prior to any final report to the Parliament.

20. That reports of the committee may recommend matters for further investigation by a joint investigatory committee appointed under the Parliamentary Committees Act 1968.

21. Where requested so to do by one or more members of the committee, the committee shall include with a report made by it to each House a minority report on behalf of that member or those members.

Payment of Members

22. That the committee be a committee to which section 51 A of the Parliamentary Committees Act 1968 applies.

Hansard

23. That as soon as practicable after the completion of each day's proceedings a transcript of the evidence taken in public by the committee shall be published.

Conflict with Standing Orders

24. That the foregoing provisions of this resolution so far as they are inconsistent with the Standing Orders and practices of the Houses shall have effect notwithstanding anything contained in those Standing Orders.

Expiry of Resolution

25. This resolution shall have effect up to and until 31 May 1989.

I move: That the resolution be agreed to.

I understand the resolution has been circulated.

The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-I support the resolution. The history of the issue is that in 1986 the Legislative Council resolved to set up the first Estimates Committee of this Parliament. The committee was established by the Legislative Council, but not with the government's support. It performed a valuable function, which is recognised by the government's subsequent support for the creation of a joint House Estimates Committee to meet on a regular basis.

The motion will result in the establishment for a further year of an Estimates Committee which will meet to consider and report upon the annual Estimates of Receipts and Payments and any additional or supplementary Estimates of Receipts and Payments presented to Parliament. It is a very important task and it adds a fresh dimension to the work of Parliament in properly analysing the actions of both the government and the bureaucracy.

In the absence of an Estimates Committee; those statistics would not be properly scrutinised; and it can be said without any question of party political considerations that Parliament should be able to examine the elaborate details of government spending initiatives, as well as the revenue-raising initiatives of each department. Given the constraints of time and the magnitude of the task, it is impossible for either House to do that by itself. The committee must be adequately resourced-and it is the Treasurer's intention to do so. The committee will need to meet on a regular basis ifit is to carry out its work properly.

Session 1988-19

562 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Estimates Committee

Members of the Liberal Party are delighted that our earlier initiative to establish an Estimates Committee resulted in the government embracing the idea. However, it is regrettable that this motion has to be moved every year. The committee should be established permanently. But at this stage the government will not agree to the committee being established for more than twelve months at a time.

I shall highlight one important aspect of the resolution, paragraph 12, which refers to the participation of non-members on the committee. An important feature of the Estimates Committee that was established by the House in 1986 was that participation in the functions of the committee was not limited only to those members appointed to it; other members of Parliament could attend the committee meeting and, at the discretion of the chairman, ask questions or seek information.

The establishment of an Estimates Committee was innovative and has proved to be very productive. It is recognised that the participation of other honourable members is at the discretion of the chairman, who is a member of the government; but the Opposition looks forward to the committee working productively and responsibly.

The Liberal Party supports the establishment of the Estimates Committee, an initiative that it proposed two years ago.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The National Party supports the formation of the Estimates Committee. As Mr Birrell said, a request for the establishment of such a committee has been made many times in the past, and in 1986 the House moved to establish a committee of its own because of the government's unsatisfactory response to the idea.

An Estimates Committee has a very important role; especially, it must undertake its tasks efficiently. In the past Parliament has not adequately examined the appropriations of various departments. I am as much to blame as any honourable member, because it is a very difficult issue to come to grips with. It is very useful if an Estimates Committee is specifically charged to closely examine those appropriations.

It is fair to say that when the Economic and Budget Review Committee was established six years ago, many honourable members thought that it would examine the appropriations of various departments. For one reason or another the work of that committee has centred on other issues, important though those issues are. So the Economic and Budget Review Committee has not undertaken the task that was expected of it when it was first established. The National Party supports the formation of a separate and specific Estimates Committee.

Like Mr Birrell I am disappointed that the Estimates Committee will not continue for the life of the Parliament, as do the other joint Parliamentary committees. Nevertheless, there are ways and means of ensuring its continuance each year, as Mr Birrell said. The members to be appointed to the committee have an onerous task ahead of them in undertaking a close examination of the Estimates on behalf of all honourable members, a task that honourable members have not performed as well as they should have in recent years. I wish the members of the committee well and look forward to the committee's report being presented to the House.

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-In supporting the establishment of the Estimates Committee, the government makes clear that both Ministers and departmental heads will make themselves freely available to answer any questions of members of the Estimates Committee. The government looks forward to the committee conducting itself as it has in the past. I join wi.th other honourable members in saying that the committee enhances the role of Parliament and increases the accountability of Ministers and their departments to Parliament in an appropriate way.

Estimates Committee 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 563

In examining the history of the committee and the circumstances that have led to its existence, I point out to honourable members opposite that the issue was not first raised in 1982. The establishment of an Estimates Committee was first mooted by Liberal government backbenchers on a number of occasions prior to 1982. Members of the backbench of the then Liberal government, including former honourable members such as the Honourable Peter Block, the Honourable Ralph Howard, the Honourable Charles Hider, and the Honourable Kevin Foley--

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Where have they gone?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-All those former honourable members spoke at some length in the House about the need for the establishment of such a committee.

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-What about James Guest?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-Yes, Mr Guest, also. As Mr Birrell correctly says, of the names I have mentioned only Mr Guest survives as a member of the House. The circumstances in which those former members ceased to be members of the House give one cause for reflection. As you will recall, Mr President, when vacancies occurred in the then Liberal government Cabinet, it was clear that on each occasion those former members were passed over for people of lesser ability, which assisted in the demise of the previous Liberal government.

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Haddon knocked one off!

The Hon. Haddon Storey-I think I was already there, so that does not count!

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-In fairness to Mr Storey, he was already a member of the Cabinet at that time, but the choices the party made--

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-J eff Kennett?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-I share Mr Birrell's views of JeffKennett!

The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Do you admire him, too?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-You have never gone on the public record as saying you admire him!

I join with Mr Baxter and the Leader of the Opposition in this place in wishing members of the Estimates Committee well in their deliberations. I repeat that government Ministers and the heads of the various departments look forward to participating in its operations.

The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-I endorse the establishment of the Estimates Committee. Last year I was a member of the first joint Parliamentary Estimates Committee which followed in the steps of the committee that was established in 1986 at the behest of the Liberal and National parties. Having had the opportunity of sitting on the Estimates Committee, I endorse its value, not only because of the inquiries that it makes and the reports that it presents, but also because it gives an opportunity to members from both sides of the House to gain a clearer understanding of appropriation documents and the funding of various departments. It gives members an opportunity of discovering the financial .priorities of those departments, what specific tasks they have set for them, and how they measure their progress.

Those matters were able to be investigated by the previous Estimates Committee through a series of questions that were worked out under the direction of the chairman and which were sent to each department. Last year, members of the Estimates Committee were able to examine such matters as the productivity of various departments and the priorities that had been set for them. Also, we were able to

564 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Business of the House

compare the previous year's Estimates with the Estimates for the current year to discover the reasons for any discrepancies or variations that occurred in those figures.

The previous Estimates Committee had the opportunity of asking spontaneous broad questions over and above the questions set down. That is helpful to members of the committee, and when the report of the committee is tabled it gives Parliament the opportunity of understanding the workings of government and of examining in depth the Appropriation Bill and other Budget documents. The Estimates Committee establishes the credibility of departments and examines the documentation and performance on a more detailed basis than otherwise is available.

The Estimates Committee appointed in 1987 also examined the operations of the Auditor-General and his staff. That provided it with the opportunity of hearing the concerns that the Auditor-General had about various programs and the operations and performances of the departments, and it opened up a perspective that gives Parliament a better understanding of the appropriation process and the use and expenditure of funds on a departmental basis.

It has been said before that the Estimates Committee should be a Standing Committee of Parliament, as it is in the Senate of the Commonwealth Parliament. I hope the government will consider that because the continuity and knowledge that the members of that committee gain help them to probe responsibly, on a non-political basis, the workings of departments. Consequently, it gives Parliament a proper understanding and consideration of the Budget, which is ultimately the taxpayers' money.

Having had the experience of being a member of the first joint Estimates Committee, I support the motion and hope the proposed establishment of the committee has the support of Parliament. The committee would be of even more value to Parliament if it were to become a Standing Committee of Parliament. However, the aim of the committee is to examine and report to Parliament by May 1989 and, on that basis, I support the motion.


It was ordered that a message be sent to the Assembly intimating the decision of the House.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE The PRESIDENT -Order! I understand there is a difficulty which prevents the

Legislative Council from continuing with other business at present, but that the matter is likely to be resolved by 2 p.m. The Deputy President will therefore assume the chair at 2 p.m.

The sitting was suspended at 12.34 p.m. until 2.4 p.m.

LIBRARIES BILL For the HOD. C. J. nOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs), the Hon. E. H. Walker

(Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time.

I am proud to be able to introduce this new' Libraries Bill as it represents a significant milestone in the development of libraries in this State, and one which will take Victoria's libraries into the next decade and beyond with a new sense of purpose.


Victoria has a long record of library services. The first, a subscription library, was set up in 1838 when the colony was only two years old. In the early 1850s citizens of the burgeoning town of Melbourne began the campaign for a public library. These citizens included members of Parliament and senior government officials, the most prominent of these being the Lieutenant-Governor of the colony, Charles Joseph La Trobe, and Mr Justice, later Sir Redmond Barry.

The foundation stone of the Melbourne public library was laid in July 1854, and the building officially opened its doors to the public on 11 February 1856. Thus the institution which was to become the State Library of Victoria was a 21 st birthday present to the young colony, an appropriate recognition of Victoria's coming of age.

A system of travelling libraries-brassbound boxes of books which were sent to towns and settlements around the State-extended services to people living outside the capital. Mechanics institutes blossomed in the second half of the nineteenth century, and the institute buildings, which still remain in the main streets of many towns in country Victoria, are a testament to the vitality of this movement towards self-education and the pursuit of knowledge through books and readirtg.

M unicipally controlled public libraries followed more slowly. By 1912 there were five such libraries provided free of charge by local councils. By the mid-1940s when the State government passed the Free Library Service Board Act establishing a State Library Board to support and coordinate development of a Statewide network of free public libraries, less than 15 per cent of Victoria's population was served by public libraries. This board promoted the establishment of new libraries, advised on their operations and administered the State's public library funding program.

A further impetus to Statewide planning oflibrary services took place in 1965 when, as a result of the Jungwirth report in 1964, the Library Council of Victoria was established under its own Act. The council took over the roles of the former Free Library Service Board and the trustees of the State Library of Victoria, thus bringing together under one administration the State's two public library functions.

In 1970 the Library Council of Victoria presented a report to the State government entitled Public Library Service in Victoria, which set the pattern for library reform and development in the State and included the landmark "minimum standards for public libraries", which was an essential tool in the development and evaluation of services. The report also emphasised the advantages and economies of scale in regionalisation oflibraries for the large number of small and medium-sized municipalities in the State which would otherwise have found it difficult to maintain good standard libraries at a reasonable cost.

This new council continued the work of its predecessor through its planning and advisory functions and, in particular, its advice on the funding of public libraries. It worked with local government, both through representation on the Council of Local Government Councillors and through its consultancy and advisory activities at local and regional level; and this partnership achieved what was arguably the best public library network in Australia.

One of the major thrusts of the council's wor~ over the past fifteen years has been to achieve Statewide coverage of public library services, and this has been very largely successful. Library service is now available to 99·6 per cent of the population of Victoria. Other achievements that can be attributed directly or indirectly to the work of the council have included the establishment of regional libraries involving 177 Victorian municipalities and 8 New South Wales municipalities, introduction of computer systems in all but 15 libraries, expansion and upgrading of bookmobile services far in advance of other States, the establishment ofTechnilib as a cooperative

566 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Libraries Bill

processing centre for libraries, increased expertise and standards of service through children's libraries, establishment of the Victorian library network on Viatellinking all public libraries and the State Library of Victoria in a common system, integration of library services for print-handicapped readers into the public library system, and a wide range of innovative projects of potential benefit to all libraries.

These achievements are significant and the government recognises the work of the Library Council over its 23 years of operation. However, the environment in which libraries now operate is very different from that of the 1960s and 1970s, and new and different strategies and structures are needed to ensure that our libraries are able to respond and develop in this environment in a way which will carry the greatest benefit for all Victorians. Major elements in this changing environment for libraries are changes in government policies, the economic environment, social factors, educational changes, technological change, and changes in the information industry itself.

The expansionary days of the last decade are over, and governments around the world are facing the realities of finite resources and growing demands for government services. The present Victorian government, unlike many previous governments, has responded to this challenge with a systematic and focused approach to policy development which permeates all facets of its operations and provides the driving force for its initiatives. The economic and social justice strategies are the two main building blocks of current government policy. Ways must be found to ensure that libraries can play their part in the context of these strategies, and the Statewide planning for libraries is fully informed on new policy directions which will impact on the provision of libraries.

In common with the rest of Australia, Victoria has the problem of a sparse population distribution outside the metropolitan area. This has significant implications for the delivery of non-metropolitan library services and the strategies which should be adopted to achieve reasonable standards of service. The percentage of non-English speaking people in Victoria is higher than in any other State. Victoria, in common with the rest of Australia, has an ageing population. These factors create different user groups with different needs in the community. Libraries in turn are having to review their services and design new approaches to meet these very particular needs.

As key providers of information, libraries are continually influenced by the numerous and rapid changes in information technology. Recent developments in computer, communications and information storage technologies are all having a profound effect on library services. These technological changes are closely related to the rapid growth in the pool of information that is available, and the need for all citizens to have more rapid and easier access to the particular information necessary to them to conduct their increasingly complex lives. All these challenges provide opportunities for all libraries of making a significant contribution to the social and economic well-being of the State. They also place tremendous pressures on the system which demands creative and well-constructed solutions.

The Bill will provide the necessary structures and processes whereby the total library resources of the State can be coordinated and directed to the greatest benefit of all Victorians who have a need for the knowledge and information that these libraries represent. It will also provide a more focused approach to the development of library policies under the broad umbrella of government policy as well as broadening the scope of advice received by government while retaining the already well-established links with the local government library sector.

In regard to those structures and processes, the Bill establishes the Libraries Board of Victoria, a cross-sectional representative body, to provide advice and information to the Minister on matters relating to libraries and information organisations, and to


identify, develop and promote opportunities of bringing about more comprehensive and improved library and information services in Victoria.

In addition, the Council of the State Library of Victoria is established by the Bill to be responsible for development and operational matters of the State Library of Victoria including the custodianship of the State collection of library material ensuring that it is managed, accommodated, maintained, preserved and developed in an efficient and economic manner. The establishment of these two bodies, which as a major new government initiative will bring not only greater efficiency to the library network but also enable it to plan on a coordinated basis for the future, is the result of a long and wide-ranging process of review and consultation involving State and local government and all sectors of the library community.

A number of major reports have been produced: two reports of the libraries review prepared by the Management Improvement Division of the Public Service Board of Victoria, and the State Library Development Study carried out by an independent steering committee under the able chairmanship of Mr Arnold Hancock, OBE, have been the most significant, and have generated broad debate. Within the Ministry for the Arts a twelve-month consultative process has involved a wide range of library administrators in advising on appropriate directions for the future. The Municipal Association of Victoria and the Metropolitan Municipal Association have made a very great contribution to the debate on the issues, and, in particular, on the future pattern of public library funding. This Bill owes much to this debate and discussion.

In the 1988-89 Appropriation Bill, the government made provision for increased funding for public libraries. The funding base has increased from $17·8 million last municipal year to $19·3 million-an 8·4 per cent increase. The new funding arrangements now in place provide for needs and disabilities components as well as for a per capita grant. These changes will help put future planning for public library services on a more secure financial footing, and will enable libraries to be flexible, accountable and able to cope with the changing needs of their clients.

In conclusion, the Bill will repeal the Libraries Act 1958 as well as the Library Council of Victoria Act 1965, to which I alluded previously. As a matter of further information for honourable members, the current provisions of the Libraries Act 1958 are the remaining provisions of that Act following the establishment of the Library Council of Victoria under its own statute in 1965 and the transfer to it of the powers, functions and duties of the former trustees of the State Library of Victoria and the Free Library Service Board formerly contained in the Libraries Act 1958.

Currently, that Act makes provision for land vested in trustees which may be used as a site for a free library, reading room, mechanics institute or trades hall. In connection with these uses the Act provides for the appointment and resignation of trustees, for the surrender to the Crown of Crown grants no longer required, and for the transfer to the municipality of the local district of land held otherwise than by Crown grant that is no longer required. The Bill will provide for amended provisions relating to these matters.

In particular, existing section 23 provides that land other than Crown land which is vested in trustees in trust for the purpose of a site for a free library, reading room, mechanics institute or trades hall and which is no longer required for that purpose may on petition from the trustees and approval of the Governor in Council be transferred to the local municipality. A large majority of these facilities, some of which have existed since the last century, are no longer used for the original purpose and have no legally appointed trustees. They stand in disrepair, unable to be transferred under section 23 to the local municipality, under whose management the site could be put to use for the benefit of the local community.

568 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Local Government (Validation) Bill

A significant number of applications received by the Ministry for the Arts have, on the advice of the Victorian Government Solicitor, been refused because no legally appointed trustees or registered proprietor can be found. The alternative then for local communities is to approach the Supreme Court of Victoria for the appointment of new trustees and subsequent authorisation for transfer to the municipality-a complex exercise which is both costly and time consuming.

In the Bill, the government has responded to these local community requests by providing that the Minister will consider transfer or surrender applications from eligible persons. Notice of such applications will be required to appear in the daily and local press, and the Minister will consider any objections before making his decision.


On the motion of the Hon. R. I. Knowles, for the Hon. HAD DON STOREY (East Yarra Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Thursday, December 1.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (V ALIDA TION) BILL The House went into Committee for the consideration of this Bill.

Clause 1

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province )-1 move: Clause I, line 4, after ··1958" insert:

ubecause-

(a) The internal boundaries of the municipalities referred to in this Act which were re-subdivided by the Government of Victoria during 1986, 1987 and 1988 were deemed invalid as the result of-

(i) the decision ofMr 1 ustice Cummins ofthe Supreme Court of Victoria in a proceeding commenced by the City of Geelong against the Attorney-General for the State of Victoria that the Minister for Local Government, the Honourable 1. Simmonds, had failed to give proper notice as required under the Local Government Act 1958 to alert voters and the municipality of their right to make submissions before the re-subdivision took place; and

(ii) the decision of the Full Court of the Supreme Court of Victoria that notices published on 24 and 25 May 1988 relating to the proposed re-subdivisions and the Orders in Council in respect of the City of Gee long and Shires of Kyneton and Corio were invalid; and

(b) as a result of the failure of the Minister for Local Government to give proper notice the 1988 municipal elections of the municipalities referred to in this Act were not properly held; and

(c) it is necessary to validate the Orders in Council and the municipal elections so as to remove the doubt and confusion caused by the actions of the said Minister for Local Government-".

During the second-reading debate I spelt out to the House that this Bill was needed to validate the actions of the government. The House is validating Orders in Council and the elections which followed the resubdivision and reallocation of boundaries in the 130 areas.

The situation has not arisen because of a technical mistake. Earlier this year honourable members were faced with a technical mistake in the Corrections (Remissions) Bill relating to remissions for prisoners. The government said that the bureaucrats had found the error, which gave 100 days remission to every prisoner in Victoria. The prisoners thought it was great, but it was catastrophic! Clearly, it was an error as a result of regulations which had been improperly drawn. The Opposition had no hesitation in supporting the Bill and made no fuss.

Local Government (Validation) Bill 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 569

The amendment is proposed to the purpose clause on the basis that the Minister received clear warnings that what he was doing was outside the law and was in breach of the spirit and intent of that law, which was to place individuals and municipalities on notice when changes were proposed to be made.

In this instance the Committee has before it an amendment to the purpose clause. The purpose clause, as defined in clause 1 of the Bill, at present states:

The purpose of this Act is to validate certain Orders made under Part 11 of the Local Government Act 1958 and for certain other purposes.

Readers of the proposed legislation are entitled to know why the Opposition has moved the amendment. I request the Committee to approve the alteration to my proposed amendment, which inserts the word "said" in the last line. It therefore reads, "the actions of the said Minister for Local Government".

The proposal is novel and many do not like novelties. Nothing is contained in that amendment that is incorrect. The factual elements were checked by Parliamentary Counsel and some descriptions have been changed. The amendment is a statement of fact on the purpose of the Bill. All governments make mistakes and probably half a dozen mistakes that the Liberal Party made when in government could be trotted out. I gave the example of the Corrections (Remissions) Bill. Amendments were made to the Planning and Environment Act; the Minister, on the day the Act came into operation, got smart and unwittingly caused the invalidity of all planning schemes in Victoria.

How often should that be allowed to occur? The public should know the purpose of the Bill, which is to recognise that the then Minister for Local Government-against all advice to the contrary-put the municipalities into a situation where a doubt was cast over the elections.

If honourable members are interested in the predictions as to what could happen they should read the Australian Municipal Journal of July 1988. Before the court arrived at a decision, Shane Scanlan clearly spelt out in that publication the implications of the government's actions and the chaos that would ensue. He strongly supported the view of many legal firms that what the government had done was invalid.

Parliament is entitled to spell out those facts. Should it be spelt out in a debate or in a Bill? The suggestion I have in the amendment is that the facts should be included in the Bill.

The Hon. D. E. HENSHA W (Geelong Province)-The purpose of the Bill is to validate a previous Bill, as enacted, and to make it more workable. It is inappropriate to insert into a Bill a statement that ascribes blame to a Minister and have it remain on the statute book. There is no need to enter into the rights and wrongs of the actions of the Minister to the extent of inserting it in legislation. The purpose of the Bill is to validate a previous Bill.

If people need to know the reasons they can refer to the sources quoted by Mr Chamberlain, particularly the decision of the Supreme Court. They can refer to H ansard. There is no need for this type of statement to be inserted in a piece of the Queen's legislation. The proposed legislation should be objective and impartial.

The government opposes the amendment. Mr Chamberlain has said it is not unusual to have validation Bills. Some examples include the Constitution (Validation of Elections) Act 1976, the Local Government (Validation) Act 1980, the Wodonga Area


Land Acquisition (Validation) Act 1980 and the Geelong Regional Interim Development Order (Validation) Act 1978.

None of those Acts required a statement such as the one proposed by Mr Chamberlain. He is attempting to introduce a political point-scoring exercise. I direct to his attention a letter from the Municipal Association of Victoria, which, I understand, was sent to party Leaders. I shall refer to the letter of 16 November 1988 sent to the Minister for Local Government which reaffirms the strong view of the association that the Bill now before the Committee must be passed forthwith. It states:

Without wishing to interfere in the negotiations between the government and the Opposition, the MA V is vigorously opposed to this Bill becoming the subject offurther political point scoring or brinkmanship.

Mr Chamberlain is attempting to write a point-scoring exercise into the proposed legislation. That is inappropriate and the Committee should not have a bar of it.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (the Hon. Robert Lawson)-Order! I advise Mr Henshaw that he is not in his place. Ifhe wishes to sit at the table, he should ask leave of the Committee to do so.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-Mr Acting Chairman, I seek leave for Mr Henshaw, retrospectively--

The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-Another retrospective action.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG-I seek leave for him, retrospectively and now, to sit at the table. I was not in the Chamber at the commencement of the debate. The Leader of the House took my position as Minister responsible for the Bill and was assisted by MrHenshaw.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN-Order! Is leave granted?

The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-No.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN-Order! I am sorry, but Mr Henshaw will have to resume his place.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-At the outset I point out that I wholeheartedly agree with everything Mr Chamberlain has said. I take issue with Mr Henshaw's comment that the Bill now before the Committee will validate a previous measure, because it does not. The Bill will validate orders imposed on councils throughout the State-nothing more or less. Although I do not disagree with anything Mr Chamberlain said, I take on board the comments of Mr Henshaw as to the appropriateness of having this issue recorded in legislation rather than simply having it recorded in Hansard.

The dilemma I face is this: although I wish to have it recorded in the appropriate place for all to see-it is suggested that the proposed legislation will do that-I am mindful of the fact that honourable members have a responsibility to have the Bill passed. Its primary purpose is to remove a big question mark over 130 municipalities in this State. If there is a sticking point on this issue, I suggest to the Committee that the delay involved in removing that question mark may not be worth the trouble. Although I am sympathetic to what Mr Chamberlain has put to the Committee, and I support him, it may be more appropriately issued in a press release-perhaps I will do that-rather than have it incorporated in the Bill. On those grounds, I do not support the amendment.

The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-I also oppose the amendment. It creates a dangerous precedent because it places what is really a political statement into proposed legislation. The intention of Mr Chamberlain is clearly recorded in


Hansard. It is on the public record. There are plenty of ways of recording the reasons for the introduction of the Local Government (Validation) Bill. The Committee would be creating a dangerous precedent ifit enshrined those reasons into proposed legislation.

As Mr Chamberlain pointed out, this is not the first time that this has occurred and this is not the first government under which it has occurred. I can recall that, when the Liberal Party was on the government benches, the then Labor Opposition was involved in validating legislation. I am opposed to using proposed legislation for what amounts to a political point-scoring exercise. There are plenty of other ways of putting the Liberal Party's position on the record, if it so desires. Proposed legislation is not the place for it.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-Mr Henshaw's contribution was up to its usual standard, and had nothing to do with what is now before the Committee. He said the Committee was being asked to validate a previous Bill or Act of Parliament. That is how much he knows! If Mr Henshaw read the Bill, he would understand that what is being validated are Orders in Council improperly made under an Act of Parliament. Therefore, his contribution was not worth anything.

Mi' Henshaw also said that the purpose clause has not previously been used in this way. The concept of a purpose clause has been added to Bills in recent times by the Labor government as a result of a report by the Legal and Constitutional Committee so there has not been the opportunity of inserting such an amendment in proposed legislation over the years. The purpose of the amendment in this case is to save the government from self-inflicted chaos. That chaos has been inflicted by an incompetent Minister who ignored advice and forced municipal councils into a mess.

I appreciate the view put forward by Mr Hallam, and in such circumstances I recognise that I do not have the numbers. The sentiments that I have expressed are on the record, and it is up to me to disseminate them.

The amendment was negatived, and the clause was agreed to, as were clauses 2 and 3.

Clause 4

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I refer the Committee to subclause (2), which incorporates an amendment originally drafted by the National Party and presented in the other place by my colleague, the honourable member for Swan Hill. For the record, the National Party is absolutely delighted that the government has taken on board the thrust of the amendment because it was a crucial matter that had to be addressed.

The facts are that the Shire of Kyneton successfully challenged the Order in Council before the Full Court of the Supreme Court in this State. In making judgment on those orders and stating that they were invalid the court had to face the practical effect of what it could do to implement the practical nature of the judgment. It decided that all it could do was to send the shire back to its original ridings and original number of councillors-that is, six ridings and eighteen councillors. That was the only way the court could practically implement its judgment.

In making a judgment that the shire would need to hold an election on that basis, it was really inflicting a substantial penalty on the shire because no-one wanted the six ridings and eighteen councillors. The Shire of Kyneton conceded that five ridings and fifteen councillors would be more appropriate. In effect, the court order meant that the shire would be conducting an interim election, with the full knowledge that subsequently, and at an early date, it would have to hold a further election on revised boundary changes.


Enormous costs would be involved in that procedure. That is why the National Party is delighted that the government has accepted its suggestion, which clearly overrides the need for that interim election. Coupled with the amendment that I propose to put to the Committee later, what the National Party has achieved, on behalf of the Shire of Kyneton, is a fast track and a real opportunity for it to have its boundaries reviewed.

More importantly, under a review process into which the Shire of Kyneton will have real input, the shire can put forward the proposal to be considered and, ultimately, the decision will be referred to the voters, if that is the wish of the council. The Shire of Kyneton has been realistically protected by that amendment, and I acknowledge the government's acceptance of the scheme, which has released the shire from the interim election. I acknowledge that subclause (2) has overcome one of the fundamental objections the National Party had to the original Bill.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-The Opposition is also pleased that clause 4 has been amended in another place in this way. As I said during the second-reading debate, the Shire of Kyneton is in an untenable situation. It went into an election with eighteen councillors and was then required to hold an election in August this year with fifteen councillors. A decision was handed down by the Supreme Court, which ordered that an election be held for eighteen casual vacancies and that the election be held between now and Christmas.

The preferred option of the council has always been for fifteen councillors. That being the case, it would then have faced the prospect of trying to convince the Local Government Commission to alter the number of councillors from eighteen to fifteen and allowing an election for fifteen councillors to be held in August. That would have meant three elections in twelve months: the first for eighteen councillors; the second for fifteen councillors; and the third for eighteen councillors. That was nonsense and could not be achieved because of the practical problems of assembling rolls for the consti tuen ts.

The council would have to have held elections based on four ridings and on six ridings without rolls. Apart from the cost, inconvenience, and confusion caused to the council as a result of this problem, the council cannot meet because the only order affecting it at present is that of the Full Court of the Supreme Court.

In my discussions with the Parliamentary representative of the Shire of Kyneton, Mr de Fegely, a couple of weeks ago, I learnt that the council was desperate for the proposed legislation to be passed. It was also desperate not to hold an election pursuant to the order of the Supreme Court. The position of the government meets the council's objective in the first place and, secondly, Mr Hallam's amendment, which the Opposition supports, meets the council's second objective.

The Hon. R. S. de FEGELY (Ballarat Province)-As the representative for the Shire of Kyneton, I also appreciate that the government has accepted the amendment and overcome a situation that was untenable to the Kyneton Shire Council. I appreciate the help of Mr Hallam and the National Party and that they have drafted the amendment, which has been accepted by the government. It represents a joint effort.

On 7 November 1988 I received a letter from the Shire of Kyneton that enclosed a letter from the council's solicitors, Maddock Lonie and Chisholm, asking the Opposition to endeavour to alter the situation which existed following the ruling of the Supreme Court. The submission sent to me by the Kyneton Shire Council says:

This council is now faced, due to the postponement of the court hearing, with having three total spill elections within twelve months.

Total spill four ridings-August, 1988.

Local Government (Validation) Bill

Total spill six ridings-December, 1988.

Total spill four or five ridings-August, 1989.

24 November 1988 COUNCIL 573

This represents added costs, confusion and inconvenience to the council, councillors and the community and would be considered by all to be a ludicrous, wasteful and unnecessary chain of events.

The present council and the council elected in December, 1988, would consider that they were acting as caretakers only and would not in any way be considered to be conducive to good government.

The government's acceptance of the amendment is sensible. I commend the government and all involved in ensuring that it is included in the Bill.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-During the second-reading debate Mr Chamberlain and several other honourable members sought an undertaking from the government on certain legal costs that had been incurred. Now is the appropriate time to give that undertaking. I make the following statement on behalf of the Minister for Local Government in another place and the government.

The government will pay the legal costs of those councils that were involved in Supreme Court litigation relating to internal boundaries. This includes costs in accordance with the order of the Full Court to the shires of Kyneton and Corio and the City of Geelong, as well as the reasonable costs of the shires of Metcalfe and Strathfieldsaye and the cities of Heidelberg, Box Hill and Altona. I believe that is the assurance that was sought.

The clause was agreed to, as was the remaining clause.

New clause

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I move: Insert the following new clause to follow clause 5:

Review of internal boundaries.

"A. (I) In this section "affected municipality" mearis any municipality referred to in column 1 of an item in the Schedule.

(2) Within 60 days of the day on which this Act receives the Royal Assent an affected municipality may submit a proposal to the Minister for Local Government for an Order to be made under section 24B <f) of the Local Government Act 1958.

(3) A proposal under sub-section (2) must provide that wherever possible the number of voters represented by each Councillor does not vary by more than 10 per cent from the average number of voters for the entire municipal district, being the total number of voters for the municipal district divided by the number of Councillors for that municipal district.

(4) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Local Government Act 1958, the Minister for Local Government must immediately upon receiving a proposal under sub-section (3) refer the proposal to a Division of the Local Government Commission.

(5) Subject to this section, a Division of the Local Government Commission must conduct an inquiry into a proposal received under this section in accordance with Part 11 of the Local Government Act 1958.

(6) A Division of the Local Government Commission to which a proposal has been referred under this section must make a report to the Minister for Local Government on the proposal within 6 months of the proposal being referred to it.

(7) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Local Government Act 1958, upon receiving a report from a Division of the Local Government Commission under this section the Minister for Local Government must immediately cause a copy of the report to be sent to the municipal clerk of the affected municipality.

(8) The municipal clerk of the affected municipality must within 14 days of receiving the report give notice in a newspaper circulating generally in the municipal district ofthat municipality that any person may without fee inspect a copy of the report at the office of the council during ordinary office hours on any week day for a period of not less than 14 days after the day on which notice is given.


(9) Within 30 days after the giving of notice under sub-section (8)

(a) the Council of the affected municipality; or

(b) at least one-tenth of the voters on the voters' roll for the affected municipality

may require the Minister to cause a poll to be conducted in respect of that report.

(10) Sections 24L, 24M and 24N of the Local Government Act 1958 apply with such modifications as are necessary to a poll to be held under sub-section (9).

(11) The Minister for Local Government must-

(a) ifno poll is held or if the poll approves of the report of the Division of the Local Government Commission, take any steps which are necessary (including where appropriate the making of a recommendation to the Governor in Council for an Order to be made under section 24B (/) of the Local Government Act 1958) to give effect to the report; or

(b) if the poll rejects the report of the Division of the Local Government Commission, give effect to the result of the poll.

(12) If a proposal in relation to an affected municipality is received under this section, any existing proposal initiated under section 24D ofthe Local Government Act 1958 relating to an Order under section 24B (f) of that Act in relation to that municipality must not be proceeded with.

(13) Until a proposal in relation to an affected municipality under this section is determined as provided in sub-section (11) a further proposal relating to an Order under'section 24B (/) of the Local Government Act 1958 in relation to that municipality cannot be initiated under section 24D of that Act.".

New clause A seeks to provide a fast-track review process that would become available to approximately 130 municipalities included in the schedule that are aggrieved by the new boundaries introduced under the Orders in Council, which subsequently have been challenged and declared invalid.

Despite the ruling of the Supreme Court that the orders were invalid, the vast majority of councils directly involved, even those which have complained about the jack-boot tactics of the government, want the orders validated. In other words, they want the Bill passed. However, although the National Party agreed with the need to pass the Bill so that the elections of last August and all of the actions of councils that have taken place since would legally be put beyond question, it wanted protection for councils that are unhappy about the new boundaries and either wanted some variation of or a reversion to the original boundaries. They were the councils that felt they had been run over by the dictates of the previous Minister for Local Government. The new clause, which I shall now outline, provides that protection realistically and practically.

As a matter of clarification, Mr Acting Chairman, the thrust of the amendment is slightly different from that which I foreshadowed during the second-reading debate. It resulted from the negotiations that have since taken place between the parties. I shall briefly outline the nature of the changes.

Firstly, it was put to the National Party that a proposal for a review of the boundaries should take account of the maximum variation in the number of voters in any riding to a margin of 10 per cent greater or less than the mean of the municipality. The National Party does not object to that proposal because that principle, I presume, will ultimately become enshrined in the law of the State-having been included in the Local Government Bill that was debated last sessional period. The amendment before the Committee is slightly different in that respect.

Secondly, the National Party has been persuaded of the need to ensure that, when an action is initiated under the proposed review process, it should cause any other action under Part 11 of the Local Government Act to be stalled for the duration of an action according to this amendment. In other words, a danger could arise if processes were run concurrently, like rabbits running in different directions. I have no objection


to that proposal; it is practical. That suggestion by the Local Government Department has been taken on board and incorporated in the amendment.

Thirdly, I refer the Committee to the concept for determining the outcome of any change or proposed change to internal boundaries. That is a new concept and one that the government has ultimately embraced, but I originally envisaged that the poll would be required early in the process. There was very good reason for making that a stipulation, especially in relation to the timing of the process so that we would have a consistent play-through by the normal election date next year.

However, I have been persuaded again by the arguments of the Local Government Commission, the department and, indeed, the Minister that it would be more appropriate not to restrict the poll timing to an early part of the process but allow it as a later part because, in the normal course of events in an action before the Local Government Commission, which these amendments may require, it may be that a poll is not required. In other words, the issue may be decided without having to go to a poll. I conceded on that point because I believed it to be practical. To that degree, the National Party has changed its stance slightly, not in principle, but only in the practical effects of the proposal.

I seek the indulgence of the Committee to go through the proposed new clause in some detail because I believe it will have a very important impact. Firstly, proposed subclause (1) states that the measure is restricted to "affected municipalities". In other words, this course of action will be available only to those municipalities listed in the schedule. It will be a process available only to those councils that have been subject to a resubdi vision unless the Orders in Council subsequently change.

Therefore, we are not opening the door to all municipalities in the State-only those in the schedule. We assume it will be used only by those that feel aggrieved by the way the orders were imposed on them.

Proposed subclause (2) states: Within 60 days of the day on which this Act receives the Royal Assent an affected municipality may

submit a proposal to the Minister for Local Government for an Order to be made ...

The proposal and order both relate to boundaries and ridings. This subclause provides that a municipality may put a specific proposal to the Minister for a different structure ofridings in the municipality. It must do that within 60 days. The subclause has been specifically included to restrict those actions to the proposals that have already been widely debated at the time the orders are made. In effect we are saying that we really do not want to open the door for municipalities to review the matter again. We are really speaking about proposals that councils put forward and which, for a variety of reasons, are denied by the process.

Therefore, we acted specifically in imposing a time restraint to deal with municipalities that felt aggrieved. I submit to the Committee that the municipalities will find no difficulty in meeting the 60-day requirement.

Proposed subclause (3) states: A proposal under sub-section (2) must provide that wherever possible the number of voters represented

by each Councillor does not vary by more than 10 per cent from the average number of voters for the entire municipal district, being the total number of voters for the municipal district divided by the number of Councillors for that municipal district.

The subclause captures the slight change in stance I outlined earlier. It meets with the suggestion of the Local Government Department.


Proposed subclause (4) states: Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Local Government Act 1958, the Minister for Local

Government must immediately upon receiving a proposal under sub-section (3) refer the proposal to a Division of the Local Government Commission.

The subclause has been very carefully framed. It provides that, if a municipality puts a proposal to the Minister, the Minister must immediately refer it to a division of the Local Government Commission. The amendment is important because it provides, in effect, that we are denying the Minister a discretion that he currently has under the Act. In these restricted circumstances, the Minister has no choice other than to refer the proposal, and he must do so immediately.

Proposed subclause (5) states: Subject to this section, a Division of the Local Government Commission must conduct an inquiry into

a proposal received under this section in accordance with Part 11 of the Local Government Act 1958.

Again, this is a carefully constructed subclause providing that, if such a proposal is referred to the Local Government Commission, it must conduct an inquiry. It has no discretion. The discretion currently available to the Local Government Commission under the Local Government Act is withdrawn in these restricted circumstances.

Proposed subclause (6) states: A Division of the Local Government Commission to which a proposal has been referred under the

section must make a report to the Minister for Local Government on the proposal within 6 months of the proposal being referred to it.

Again, the subclause has been carefully constructed to place a restriction upon the duration of the inquiry into the proposal. The National Party believes six months is a reasonable time for the Local Government Commission to conduct the inquiry, given that it should be on a proposal that has already been floated publicly, debated, investigated, subjected to public inquiry, and so on. I su~est to the Committee that the six months limit we seek to impose on the duration of the inquiry is not unreasonable in those circumstances.

Proposed subclauses (7) and (8) are mechanical. They provide that, in the normal course of the conduct of the inquiry, the Minister has to accord with the requirements of the Local Government Act already in place that relate to the conduct of the inquiry. The subclause refers to copies of the report being available at the office of the council, and so on.

Proposed subclause (9) states: (9) Within 30 days after the giving of notice under sub-section (8)

(a) the Council of the affected municipality; or

(b) at least one-tenth of the voters on the voter's roll for the affected municipality

may require the Minister to cause a poll to be conducted in respect of that report.

This subclause comes to the crux of what the National Party is seeking to achieve. If the municipality, the council by special resolution, or one-tenth of the voters on the voters' roll require it, the Minister must cause a poll to be held on the proposal within 30 days. The provision is carefully constructed with due regard to the time limits being imposed, given that we would want this process to be completed by the normal election date next year. We thought very carefully about the timing and the 30 days was included after considerable discussion on the issue. It is not unreasonable given that we wish these restrictive circumstances to apply in the short term only. Given that the proposals have already been discussed widely in the community and that the council or a group of ratepayers should know immediately whether they wish the


matter to go to a poll, I put to the Committee that the time limit of 30 days is not unreasonable.

I also make it clear to the Committee that we are now requiring something quite new for local government. The poll that would be required under subclause (9) is not available under the Local Government Act in respect of internal subdivisions. This is quite new. I put it to the government that it is not unreasonable, given the circumstances played out and the background of why we were discussing the issue in the first place, for any debate to be ultimately settled by the people who are directly affected.

The proposal is that the dispute will be taken back to the people of the municipality. The specific proposal will be put to them as it was put forward by the council-after being vetted by the Local Government Commission for legality, and so on-and they will be asked to make a judgment at a poll. I want the Committee to be very clear about what that means. Proposed subclause (10) of the new clause is also mechanical in that it invokes various sections of the Local Government Act with such modifications as are necessary in relation to the conduct of a poll.

Proposed subclause (11) provides that the Minister for Local Government must, if no poll is held or if the poll approves of the report of the Local Government Commission, take any steps which are necessary to give effect to the report. I make it clear to the Committee what that means. If the poll agrees with the proposal originally put by council, the Minister for Local Government loses his discretion and he must give effect to the report. Proposed subclause (11) also provides that if the poll rejects the report of the Local Government Commission, the Minister must still give effect to the result of the poll.

The practical result is that the subdivision as imposed by the now validated Orders in Council will stand. If council puts up a proposal and feels aggrieved by the municipal boundaries imposed on it, and if it can get the support of its ratepayers, that decision will be reflected in the new boundaries. If a municipality cannot gain the support of its voters, it is stuck with the boundaries imposed under the Orders in Council.

Proposed subclause (12) .provides that if a proposal in relation to an affected municipality is received under the proposed section, any existing proposal initiated under the normal provisions of the Local Government Act must not be proceeded with. That provision simply picks up the suggestion of the Local Government Department that it would be inappropriate for two processes to be running concurrently, and that reflects the change in stance to which I alluded earlier.

Proposed subclause (13) takes that one step further by providing that until a proposal in relation to an affected municipality under the proposed section is determined, no similar action can be initiated under the normal provisions of section 24D of the Local Government Act.

The new clause makes it clear that if a council elects to take the fast track offered in the new clause, other proposals under other provisions of the Bill are blocked. It does not mean that those proposals cannot surface subsequent to the outcome of a review under the new procedures because a council or a group of ratepayers would only have to reinitiate the proposal. However, I make it clear that the fast-track process takes precedence until the matter is determined. That is a practicable proposal.

The net effect is that any council unhappy with the boundaries imposed on it by the Orders in Council may put a proposal to the Minister based upon an alternative for riding boundaries and councillor numbers. The Minister must immediately refer that to the Local Government Commission; he has no choice. The commission must complete an inquiry within six months of the date the inquiry is commissioned. If the Minister is required by 10 per cent of the voters in a municipality, or the council itself,


to commission a poll, he has no choice. The outcome of the poll is binding upon the Local Government Commission, which cannot produce a report inconsistent with the proposal. The Minister must give effect to the report.

I concede that the government has been asked to pay a specific price in relation to this process. It has been asked to give up Ministerial discretion at a number of levels. However, I put it to the Committee that the price is not high given that this situation has arisen because of the ineptitude of the former Minister for Local Government. This process would not be necessary but for the actions of the government. I suggest it is now up to the government to pay the price the National Party suggests is appropriate. In practical terms, all that is being asked for is protection for those councils that were overtly disadvantaged.

When boundaries are disputed by a council, the council can initiate a review and it is in the driver's seat during the conduct of that review. Council can force the question to a poll, which then becomes binding on the Local Government Commission and the government. Pointedly, and most importantly, it is also binding on the council itself. If council comes up with a proposal which it is not confident will be supported by its ratepayers, it runs the risk of institutionalising the boundaries originally imposed. What the National Party is putting to the Committee are democratic principles.

Throughout the debate that has taken place on the Bill and the negotiations that have occurred away from this place-they have been protracted and detailed-I have been impressed by the input of those involved in the issues. I wish to record my appreciation of the Municipal Association of Victoria, which has been heavily committed in this process and in the search for a solution. The need to validate the orders and to take away the extraordinary question mark placed over councils has been recognised. However, to its credit, the Municipal Association of Victoria has also been aware of the need to protect those municipalities that were caught in the process.

The Local Government Department has been helpful. I also wish to pay tribute to the assistance and support I have received from Mr Chamberlain. The National Party believes the new clause is crucial to the Bill, and I commend it to the House.

The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province)-I have listened carefully to Mr Hallam. He has been studying the new clause for some time and I have had only a short period to examine it. However, it occurs to me that it is deficient in one important respect. I shall cite a hypothetical case, and Mr Hallam may be able to answer my query and tell me I am wrong. I shall use the example of a municipality with fifteen councillors that wants to reduce the number to twelve councillors but has been ordered by the Minister for Local Government to reduce its number to nine councillors.

Under the new clause, the council would put a proposal to the Minister for a decrease to twelve councillors, and that proposal would go before the Local Government Commission. If the commission decided that the council should have only nine councillors, under the new clause the council either has to accept that or" conduct a poll. If that is rejected, no progress will have been made and the council will have its number of councillors reduced to nine.

I am certain that that is not what Mr Hallam intended. I am certain that he would want the figure twelve to be adopted in the case of the example I gave, and I do not believe he has succeeded in expressing his intent.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The issues that Mr Long raises have been discussed very carefully and at great length. I remind him that my original concept provided for a poll to be available in the early part of the process of the inquiry. That concept provided that the proposal of the municipality could be put


forward and that a poll could be held there and then, on the spot. That would obviously overcome the problem that Mr Long raises because it would be entirely up to the council to decide which proposal it put forward. If the council decided that it wanted twelve councillors, that proposal would be put forward.

Under my original concept, the council could also require that the proposal go to a poll and that it be determined before the Local Government Commission really became involved. But I was persuaded that it was inappropriate to provide for a poll in the first instance because of the very thing that Mr Long now raises: the fact that the poll should take place at the end. However, I remind Mr Long that we are talking about a proposal that comes from a council, not from the Local Government Commission. Therefore, I suggest it would be impossible for the commission to change a proposal to that degree.

The Hon. R. J. Long-That is what I argue about with you; the amendment does not say that.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM-I also point out that a very clear undertaking was gi ven by the Minister for Local Government, which I hope will-be reinforced by the Minister at the table, the Minister for Ethnic Affairs, because there is a need to weigh up those two points of conflict. There is a need to consider whether a poll should be conducted on a specific proposal put forward by a council when, in fact, the proposal may be lacking in some legality. It was put to me that there was a need for the proposal to go to the Local Government Commission just to be vetted in a legal sense, because the council may not have done its homework sufficiently well.

However, a very clear undertaking has been given by the Minister that the proposal would not be altered in substance and that, in fact, it would be consistent with the concept first put forward by the council. That has been made very clear by the Minister for Local Government, and I hope the Minister at the table, the Minister for Ethnic Affairs, will reinforce that.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-The Opposition is happy to support the amendment, and it is very pleased to have been involved in the process that led to it being moved in this place. There was widespread discussion on this matter. The discussions involved the political parties, the Municipal Association of Victoria and its legal officer, individual councils-on whom it was testeddepartmental officers, and Parliamentary Counsel.

When Mr Hallam first outlined the proposal to me some weeks ago, I had the opportunity on the following day of testing it on a ~oup of 28 municipalities in Bendigo, of whom some 17 or 19 were affected by the BIll. They believed that that sort of approach was good, although I did not really detect any great rush among that group of councils to necessarily avail themselves of it. However, I believe they liked the idea of having the opportunity being presented to them. One of the concerns I had about such an amendment related to the practicality of when the poll should be held, and this amendment evolved from our discussions.

The concern was that, although conducting the poll early in the piece had some advantages, it could lead to a situation of more legal challenges. That is the last thing anyone would want. When the Minister gave the undertaking, he said that the legal costs to the government would be $200 000 anyway, apart from the other coststherefore, we are not talking about small bickies.

Obviously everyone needed to have some surety about where this would end up. Consequently, what the Committee has before it is not much different from the existing Act. The difference is the poll. During our discussions, the Minister for Local Government from another place made it clear all along that he did not like that


suggestion. He seemed to believe that it was inappropriate to hav.e a poll, because it was a new concept in this area. I point out what all honourable members know: of course, the whole issue of proposed subclause (2) is being considered anyway in the review.

One of the advantages of the proposal is that it will provide the possibility of having a real life example of how this proposition will work, because we know how the existing law works. For those reasons, the Opposition is happy to support the amendment. If the Bill were passed without any further amendment, the 130-odd councils that are affected would have their options cut off.

One of the corollaries of the amendment-I am not sure whether Mr Hallam has mentioned it, but it is certainly one of the understandings I would want-is that if a council seeks an internal boundary review and the Minister is required to send it to a division of the Local Government Commission, there would need to be an undertaking that it would be taken to a different division from that which heard it previously.

If that did not occur, we would be wasting our time. Why would the same division that considered it previously change its mind on the second occasion? It is important that such a proposal be considered afresh and that the same division does not consider it, when it would probably say, "We know all the arguments; we have heard it all. We have been through all that, and we will give you the same result". That would be against the spirit of Mr Hallam's amendment. I hope the Minister can provide that undertaking.

The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province)-I return now to what Mr Hallam was saying, and I do not know what he was intending to say but I remind him that proposed subclause (2) requires that an affected municipality must "submit" its proposal to the Minister. Proposed subclause (5) provides that a division of the Local Government Commission must conduct an inquiry into the proposal. In the example that I gave earlier, I referred to twelve councillors; if there were meant to be only twelve councillors, as in that example, why is it necessary to conduct an inquiry into the proposal? I can understand it saying that the Local Government Commission could make a report or make comment on the proposal, but why must it conduct an inquiry into it?

I refer to proposed subclause (8), which provides that the municipal clerk of the affected municipality must keep a copy of the report available for inspection. Why is it necessary to do that if the council's proposal is going to be adopted anyway?

Finally, I refer to proposed subclause (11), which provides that the Minister for Local Government mtist, if no poll is held or if the poll approves of the report of a division of the Local Government Commission, take certain steps that are deemed to be necessary. Again, I refer to the example I gave earlier, in which the Local Government Commission said it did not want fifteen or twelve councillors, but only nine, which happens to be the proposal to which everyone is opposed. I am not trying to be difficult; I am just trying to avoid exactly what Mr Chamberlain described. We do not want any more litigation over this matter.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-In response to Mr Long, I point out that the word "submit" in proposed subclause (2) is a slight misnomer because, in fact, if the proposal is submitted, it then becomes the driving seat. Therefore, I do not believe Mr Long is reading into the word the appropriate meaning. Once the proposal is initiated, that is the issue that determines the inquiry.

In regard to the point you made about the need for the municipal clerk to be involved in that process, I simply remind you that a poll may not be demanded.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (the Hon. Robert Lawson)-Order! Mr Hallam will address the Chair.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM-Yes, Mr Acting Chairman; that is why I sought your guidance in the first place, as I was unsure of the protocol. In fact, I suggest that it would have been better for this discussion to take place outside the Chamber.

Therefore, the process in relation to the municipal clerk is guarding against a normal process where a poll is not required. In fact, what the National Party has tried to do in the structure of these amendments is to use the process already there, so far as is practicable.

The third point Mr Long raised related to proposed subclause (11). He has made the criticism that the report is that of the commission, but that is not a valid criticism. I ask: whose report would one expect it to be? Let u's go back to the initial concept where the report is directly related to a proposal put forward by the municipality.

The Hon. R. J. Long-It is contrary to what the council wants. That is my point.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM-I thought I had already addressed that. It is my view that it is impossible in practical terms for the Local Government Commission to consider an inquiry into a proposal which is not what the council wants. That is the entire direction of the proposed new clause.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province )-As an amendment to the proposed new clause, I move:

In sub-clause (2) after "affected municipality" insert "or at least one-tenth of the voters on the voters' roll for the municipality".

The effect of the amendment is to provide that, as well as the affected municipality or the council having the opportunity of initiating a proposal under Mr Hallam's proposal, that right would also be given to at least one-tenth of the voters on the voters' roll for the municipality.

It is possible that a council may be quite happy with the redivision it received but that a significant number of the ratepayers may not be happy. This amendment will resolve the possibility of that problem. The Committee will be aware that, under the normal Part II provisions of the Act, the opportunity exists for 10 per cent of the voters to institute a proposal; but Mr Hallam's special proposal provisions, if one can call them that, do not give that opportunity and the purpose of the amendment is to open up that possibility.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-The government, although perhaps not initially enormously attracted by Mr Hallam's proposed new clause, now supports it, which was the result of days of discussion between the parties. Mr Chamberlain, the honourable members for Narracan and Swan Hill in another place, Mr Hallam, people from the Municipal Association of Victoria and officers from the Local Government Department worked for a long time to achieve the most practical and workable solution to what was obviously a difficult situation.

People were prepared to be flexible and to change their positions and eventually reach an agreed position, so I make it clear at this stage that the government supports the clause proposed by Mr Hallam, and I reiterate the undertakings given by the Minister for Local Government in another place.

The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-But do you support my amendment?

The Hon. C. J. HOGG-No, we do not.


The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I am sympathetic to what Mr Chamberlain's amendment seeks to do. The thrust of the amendment is to expand the process that I have been explaining to the Committee and to make it available to 10 per cent of the voters who happen to be aggrieved by the municipal internal boundaries.

Under any other circumstances I would be delighted to support Mr Chamberlain because there is an important principle at stake. Because the concept of a poll has now been introduced, Mr Chamberlain's amendment is a further development, and noone should argue with the concept of taking the question of internal municipal boundaries to a poll of ratepayers and giving them the opportunity of being involved in a real way. However, I cannot support Mr Chamberlain's amendment because what I have put to the House has been designed as a fast-track process only, and it has been designed to be specifically restricted to those municipalities that are aggrieved by the orders of which I spoke.

It is a simple proposition. If, in fact, Mr Chamberlain's amendment were related to another situation or to the future, he could look forward to my support and the support of the National Party; but in these circumstances, where we are talking about perhaps a handful of councils, there is a danger, in attempting to be fair to everyone, of clogging up the system. It may be that 10 per cent of electors in a given municipality could inadvertently complicate. the situation.

The National Party is not suggesting that 10 per cent of electors do not have the right under Part II to challenge the boundaries-that right is available to them under the normal processes of the local government legislation-but, if the processes introduced under my amendments were expanded to 10 per cent of the electors, we would not assist but would, in fact, complicate the process because of the ramifications further down the track as to how the poll was to be conducted.

If two proposals are running concurrently there are questions of how the poll is conducted, how the thing is to be tested and so on. Therefore, although I am sympathetic to Mr Chamberlain's amendment, in practical terms I cannot support it because it would, is some respects, run the risk of restricting the value of the process I am putting forward.

The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province)-I strongly support Mr Chamberlain's amendment but I am disappointed in Mr Hallam for failIng to pick up the point. Mr Chamberlain is simply saying this: bearing in mind that the 130 municipalities today are elected on restricted boundaries, they do not want change, they do not want elections. Therefore, it is only proper that those people in the municipality, or oneit:oth of them, ought to be able to raise the issue because the councillors will not do so at present. That is the point of it and, therefore, it is very proper, if one believes in democracy, for one-tenth of the voters to be able to raise the issue.

A different set of councils at present do not want elections or changed boundaries because they are in and obviously do not want to go to election again. That is why Mr Chamberlain's amendment is important. It is merely saying that a municipality may submit a proposal; but what is wrong with at least one-tenth of voters submitting a proposal? That, to me, is quite simple and straightforward and will not complicate the position in any shape or form.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-I note that neither the government nor the National Party is willing to accept the proposal, although both recognise that it is fair. I understand the reasons for its rejection. There will still be the opportunity for the people about whom Mr Long is concerned to have input under the normal provisions because this window of opportunity for which Mr Hallam's amendment provides is a 60-day opportunity. After that, the normal Part 11 provisions


will apply and Mr Long's 10 per cent of ratepayers will still have the opportunity of putting forward a proposal to a division of the Local Government Commission. The only difference is that there will not be the referendum proposals which can carry the day. I regret that the Committee will not support the amendment.

Mr Chamberlain's amendment on the new clause was negatived.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-My subsequent amendments are consequential, so 1 shall not be moving them.

The Hon. R. S. de FEGELY (Ballarat Province )-1 support the new clause proposed by Mr Hallam, especially when I peruse the schedule of the Bill which includes, in addition to the Shire of Kyneton, some 21 councils which form part of the Ballarat Province. That is a large number out of a total of 134. I also have contact with two councils adjoining the province I represent, which are also in the schedule. Although few councils will want to take advantage of this provision, the opportunity will be there for them to do so if they wish.

The shires of Buninyong, Bungaree and Stawell, to name three, were unhappy with the attitude of the Minister in forcing them to accept the internal boundaries that they have today. They may well take the opportunity of using Mr Hallam's amendment to revert to the situation they had previously. Those councils that do not wish to take advantage of it will still appreciate the fact that it is there because, as Mr Hallam so rightly pointed out, it gives a truly democratic flavour.

The second-reading speech makes specific reference to the Shire of Ballarat and the outrageous situation that existed whereby most of the people in that municipality actually lived within the boundaries of the urban area of Ballarat, and the new boundaries rectified that. 1 do not think that the Shire ofBallarat would take advantage of Mr Hallam's amendment but I do not want to pre-empt that. However, I would suggest that the three boundaries within the Shire of Ballarat are small and the fourth rural riding is so large that one would be flat out driving around it in a day. An enormous burden is place~ on the councillors representing that fourth riding.

One would also be hard-pressed to find an argument within the municipality that people suffered because of the previous boundaries. The area of Wendouree in the City of Ballaarat has facilities that would be far better than facilities in most municipalities. The one vote, one value principle is a nonsense in Ballarat, as it is in most country municipalities. However, that is now an accepted principle and I have no argument with it.

I commend Mr Hallam for his proposed new clause. It will resolve a problem for which councils will be appreciative. The Minister acted outside the law in forcing councils to change their internal boundaries. That is something that Parliament must now put right. The Minister was arrogant in totally ignoring the law of the land. I do not care for his approach. Ministers should do their homework first but that is obviously not the way this government operates.

The new clause was agreed to, as was the schedule.

The Bill was reported to the House with an amendment, and the amendment was adopted.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I move: That this Bill be now read a third time.

In so doing, I acknowledge the assistance given by officers of the Local Government Department, Mr Graham Holmes and Mr Campbell Duncan, and the assistance given by the Municipal Association of Victoria.

584 COUNCIL 24 November 1988 Adjournment


ADJOURNMENT Stawell District Hospital-District health councils-Mosquito control measures

AIDS-Cost of bulk water in country Victoria-Loan application guarantorsSchool buses-Siting of proposed university-Homeless men's accommodation in Geelong-Public housing in Box Hill-Vacant housing sites-Wimmera College of T AFE-Parliamentary privilege-Mornington Peninsula Freeway-School crossing supervisors-Road link between Port Melbourne and central business districtLa Trobe University physiotherapy training

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I move:

That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday, December 6.


The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)I move:

That the House do now adjourn.

The Hon. R. S. de FEGELY (BaHarat Province)-I raise for the attention of the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources a dispute between the Stawell District Hospital and Western Mining Corporation Ltd, manager of the Stawelljoint venture. The dispute has arisen because Western Mining removed a large area of tailings from Crown land adjacent to the Stawell hospital commencing from December last year. That left a rather unsightly area beside the hospital.

The hospital approached Western Mining to ask if, in return, the mining company would provide waste fill to build up the area to create a car park beside the hospital. Discussions were held during which the hospital said it was not in a position to pay for that filling and it was agreed that the hospital would pay only for the transport of the filling. Subsequent discussions were held with the Department of Industry, Technology and Resources, which said that no royalties would be payable.

It transpires that the Stawell hospital was handed a bill for $32 100, which is the amount of the royalties on the filling that was placed adjacent to the hospital. The hospital has no chance of paying that amount, of course, and the situation needs to be resolved. It is between one government department, the Department of Industry, Technology and Resources, and another, Health Department Victoria. I ask the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources to take the matter on notice and see whether he can resolve the situation so that the Stawell District Hospital will not have to pay that amount of money.

The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Health. Some years ago, the Cain government established district health councils, which are publicly funded bodies responsible to Health Department Victoria. According to the government, the councils act effectively as an arm of government in an advisory capacity.

I was therefore concerned to receive a letter dated 21 November 1988 from Mr H. M. Russell, the General Manager of the Health Secretariat of Health Department Victoria, which stated that district health councils are not covered by the Freedom of Information Act. I am at a loss to understand how that could be. It came as a surprise to me because the government claims the councils as its own; they are not communitybased issue groups but an arm of government, and that is my problem. I do not seek

Adjournment 24 November 1988 COUNCIL 585

to go into the merits of the establishment of district health councils; it is just that I cannot understand how they do not come within the ambit of the Freedom of Information Act. I ask the Minister for Health to make inquiries and advise me of the outcome of those inquiries.

The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province)-I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Health and refer to responsibility for funding of the costs of mosquito control methods. I have been making representations to the Minister for Health for share funding for this purpose.

Local government has offered to make certain funds available for the work, provided that the State government also makes a contribution. Local government is already doing some work in the area. The Shire of Mildura and other municipalities have drawn to my attention a paragraph in the draft guidelines of the Health (Mosquito Control) Regulations 1988 prepared by Health Department Victoria and dated 30 September 1988, which requires all councils to be responsible for mosquito-borne diseases in their areas.

The draft appears to indicate that local government is entirely responsible. It is unfair and inequitable that that be the case. The provision of health services is the responsibility in the main of the State government. I ask the Minister for Health to respond to this matter.

The Hon. D. E. HENSHA W (Geelong Province)-I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Health in relation to the disease of acquired immune deficiency syndrome. AIDS is of concern to the whole community and has the potential to explode into a calamity for this nation and other nations.

I am indebted to Mr Connard for some advice he has given as to the potential threat of AIDS. I understand from him that there are some communities in the Western W orId which are in danger of being eliminated and that likewise there are nations in Africa which are in potentially dire straits because of the disease.

The Australian community has an inadequate understanding of the disease. It may be that an education program should be undertaken. I am emboldened to raise the matter because the Minister for Community Services and Health in the Federal Parliament tabled a paper entitled AIDS: A Time to Care, A Time to Act-Towards a Strategy for Australians. Will the Minister for Health advise the House of the situation in Victoria, relating his remarks to the position of the Federal government?

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction, representing the Minister for Water Resources, the astronomical increase in the cost of bulk water to country communities. I refer in particular to the City of Horsham. Even the Minister will be astounded to learn that since the Cain government took office the cost of bulk water to the Horsham community-where water consumption has declined-has increased by a massive 262 per cent!

In 1982-83, the cost of bulk water was 3·5 cents per kilolitre and amounted to $125 787. In the current year, at a price of 10·2 cents per kilolitre, it is estimated that the cost will be some $330000. As I said, it represents a massive increase of 262 per cent in only six years.

The matter is causing financial pressure to be placed on families in the City of Horsham. The increase exceeds every criterion the government has enunciated publicly. It exceeds the increase in the consumer price index over that period, which was of the order of 65 per cent.


Recently the Premier said that country water supply costs are included in the government's family pledge. Yet we find the increase for this year alone will be 8·1 per cent, which exceeds the CPI increase. It is not only in the City of Horsham that the increase will be so high; I give that as an example of a community which has been hard hit by the cost increases. I ask the Minister for Water Resources to examine the matter and to compare it with the Premier's pledge with a view to giving instructions to the Rural Water Commission to drastically cut the proposed cost for 1988-89.

The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister for Ethnic Affairs, representing the Minister for Consumer Affairs, a recent program in the ABC television series called The Investigators. It dealt with the pitfalls facing people guaranteeing loans on behalf of others. A number of examples were given in the program of people who had guaranteed loans on behalf of others and lost their money.

Since then, I have received a number of complaints about the situation. I direct to the attention of the Minister two of the practices adopted by banks, hire purchase companies, and even credit unions. It should be pointed out that when a person guarantees a loan he or she takes full responsibility for it; if the person borrowing the money defaults, the guarantor stands to lose the lot, and faces possible hardship. In a number of cases the financial institutions do not point out the responsibilities of the person guaranteeing the loan. I cite as an example some of the forms which are inquisitorial in nature. One credit union asked a person guaranteeing a loan not just his or her name and family background but the make, year, model, registration number, and even the engine number of his or her motor car.

I cite one example of the statutory declaration required to be signed when applying for a loan:

J/we the abovenamed indemnifier herein do solemnly and sincerely declare that the several statements and the answers to questions made in this application are true and correct in every particular.

The Hon. D. R. White-I would not sign it, if I were you!

The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY-I am having second thOUghts. It states: And I/we make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of

the provisions of an Act of the Parliament of Victoria rendering persons making a false declaration punishable for wilful and corrupt perjury.

Not only do people take on heavy obligations when they guarantee another person's loan-and usually it involves a mother or father acting as guarantor for a son or daughter-but also if they make a slight slip on the declaration form they risk a term of i~prisonment. The government improved the situation in 1984 by amending the Credit Act but, as honourable members will note, there is some room for improvement.

The PRESIDENT -Order! It appears that Mr Kennedy is about to ask for a change in the law.

The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY-No!

The PRESIDENT-Order! Mr Kennedy will bring his request for action on the part of the Minister to a conclusion.

The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY-I ask the Minister what action the government proposes to take to ensure that guarantors are given full knowledge of their obligations and rights so that the matter is clarified.

The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-I raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction, who represents the Minister for Transport in another place. It has arisen from correspondence that I have received


from the Alexandria Primary School council, the members of which have expressed their concern about the safety of children who travel on school buses. Safety is a problem when up to 80 children, many of whom have to stand, travel to school on a bus.

The problem has been exacerbated because the House of Representatives Standing Committee on transport, which was inquiring into school bus safety, has not been reconvened because of a restructuring of the Federal Parliamentary committee system. I have made representations to the Victoria Police on a number of occasions and have been told that the issue was being dealt with by the House of Representatives Standing Committee. Because that committee no longer exists, I ask the Minister to urge the Minister for Transport to review safety regulations and procedures as a matter of urgency, particularly as they affect so many children throughout rural Victoria.

The Hon. P. R. HALL (Gippsland Province)-The matter I raise with the Minister with responsibility for post-secondary education concerns the proposal to establish a fifth university in Melbourne's western suburbs. It surprises me that the western suburbs is considered to be the best site for the university and that no other sites are being considered. I feel strongly about it. The government should consider every possible venue so that the most advantageous site is chosen; it should not restrict consideration to the western suburbs of Melbourne.

In supporting its proposal the government argues that the western suburbs has been a neglected area of the city for many years. Yet rural areas have been even more neglected by the government. Students in rural areas have been disadvantaged because they lack access to tertiary institutions. It costs approximately $6000 a year for parents in rural areas to send a child to university in Melbourne. That is a great hardship that many families in rural areas have to bear.

I ask the Minister to seriously consider allowing representatives from some of the major provincial cities to be included on the joint State and Federal working party that has been established to consider the establishment of a new university. In particular, representatives from Ballarat, Bendigo and Gippsland should be included on the working party because of the colleges of advanced education that are situated in those areas. That will ensure that sites throughout Victoria are considered for the siting of the new university and that consideration is not restricted to the western suburbs.

The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-I direct the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction to the fact that the only accommodation for homeless men in Geelong, which is run by the Society of St Vincent de Paul, has been closed for rebuilding. Because of that, no accommodation will be available for homeless men in Geelong until May next year. Arrangements have been made to provide alternative accommodation on a property at Teasdale, which is approximately 30 miles from Geelong. Rail vouchers have also been provided to homeless men in Geelong to enable them to travel to Melbourne, although that is an unsatisfactory situation.

I am aware that the Minister will visit Geelong next week. I urge him to have discussions with the people concerned to enable the provision of temporary accommodation until May next year. Hundreds of homeless men have used the hostel for many years, and the service it provides is badly needed in Geelong. I would be grateful if the Minister could provide some temporary accommodation for these men until May next year, when the new hostel will be completed.

The Hon. G. H. COX (Nunawading Province)-I raise a matter with the Minister for Housing and Construction. Recently, I was fortunate enough to tour Box Hill on a


beating the bounds trip. During that time, while inspecting some of the houses constructed by the Ministry, I passed a group of houses and units being built in Paul Street, North Box Hill. Houses have already been built in Poole Street and Glenmore Street, and there are houses being constructed on the Orana site at Wattle Park. Some 50 houses have been built on that site and it is proposed to build 50 more.

I was concerned about the quality of those houses. Their design was such that one may as well have put a sign at the front of each house which said, "This is a public house"! The houses are out of character with other houses in those streets. In Paul Street, one house had white tiles on the roof, another had green, and some had blue downpipes and pink spouting. It would not have mattered so much if the houses nearby had been of a similar appearance.

The Minister should examine the aberrations of the architects who work in his department, because their work is of little service to the people who have to live in those houses. I am particularly concerned about the 50 houses that are yet to be built on the Orana site. It is not too late for the Minister to take up this matter with those architects to ensure that the style of the houses to be built will be in keeping with the environment of the area. The spot purchase program was succes~ful because it gave people the opportunity of living in houses that blended in with surrounding houses. That is not occurring with the houses that the Ministry is currently constructing.

The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash Province)-I wish to raise a matter with the Minister for Housing and Construction who professes to have had a keen interest in public housing and the environment it affects for more than twenty years. Those concerns affect the area in which he lives. His office is also situated in Fitzroy, within easy walking distance from his home. I ask him, as both a Minister and a local member, to explain the existence of seven vacant blocks in Collingwood to which the Melbourne Times drew attention yesterday. On average, those blocks, several of which carry permits to build, and all of which are owned by the Ministry for Housing and Construction, have been vacant for five years!

There may be one or two slight inaccuracies in the newspaper report, but the basis of the story is undoubtedly correct. Many vacant sites exist in the inner urban regions of the city, not just in Collingwood, but in Fitzroy, Richmond, South Melbourne, Prahran and St Kilda.

I ask the Minister to explain his inaction and to state whether he will provide the House with a comprehensive list of vacant Ministry sites that have been held for more than a year so that Parliament can ascertain if the Minister will do a better job in the future than has been done in the past.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I raise a matter for the attention of the Minister Assisting the Minister for Education. The Wimmera College of TA FE was established on the principle of using existing facilities across the Wimmera region, that is, secondary schools in the area, with the administration being based in Horsham. The concept was that the instructors would move to the students rather than the reverse.

The project was put forward as an inexpensive alternative to other education systems, and a very appropriate one. The region did not request a Taj Mahal-as occurred in Mildura where the facilities allegedly cost approximately $7 million-but two reasonable facilities. The institution is working well and is a practical way of providing urgent training for young people. Many of the young people attending the institution are not old enough to drive motor vehicles. No public transport is available to them and it is impracticable to ask them to shift their residence to Horsham so that they can take up their studies.


The budget of the Wimmera College of T AFE is to be reduced by $300 000, which must lead to a reduction in services. The risk is that services currently available to Warrnambool, Nhill and Hopetoun will close and the opportunities for young people who want to take their place in life will be severely limited. The entire concept is being placed at risk as a result of the reduction in funds.

I ask the Minister to seek a review of the decision to reduce funding for the institution. I am not sure how that can be done, but it is absolutely critical that it be done.

The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON (Higinbotham Province)-I raise a matter for the attention of the Leader of the House. I remind the Minister that I raised with him the privileges of the House during the last Parliament.

The Hon. E. H. Walker-You received a response, too.

The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON-I now ask the Minister for a further response. The Minister will recall that the Australian Senate now offers members of the public the right to contact the Privileges Committee of the Senate so that they can insert in Hansard a reply to any attacks made on them in Parliament.

Honourable members are aware that Parliamentarians have great privileges in this place and can say whatever they choose while being immune from prosecution. It is an enormous responsibility and the privilege has been abused in the past.

Does the government contemplate introducing a measure that would allow members of the public who feel that they have been slandered in Parliament a right of reply?

The Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern Province)-I ask the Minister for Housing and Construction, who represents the Minister for Transport in this Chamber, to direct to the Minister a problem associated with a bridge over the yet-to-be-completed Mornington Peninsula Freeway.

The construction of the bridge commenced in 1984 and there is a brass plaque to that effect but, at present, the bridge straddles a large hole in the ground. It has been that way since 1984. The people of Mornington Peninsula are annoyed that the freeway has not been completed. I ask the Minister to ascertain when the freeway will be completed and when the people of Mornington can expect the first cars to proceed under the bridge.

The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-I also raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction as the representative of the Minister for Transport in this Chamber. I refer to the Minister the school crossing subsidy scheme. In the past month I have received correspondence from five municipalities in my province, in particular, the City of Caulfield and the City of Moorabbin, complaining about the slow review of the Road Traffic Authority's guidelines for school crossing supervisors which commenced in the middle of last year.

The City of Caulfield states that the Road Traffic Authority has drawn back from the minimum guidelines appropriate for the school crossing supervisor to justify changes to that subsidy system and the council points out that the statistics do not justify the summary withdrawal of safety measures from schools where children have been accustomed to such protection.

Subsidies have been withdrawn for school crossing supervisors at many schools. The City of Moorabbin is even more angry, because it is a large municipality and it has many school crossings. The city has asked me to direct to the attention of the Minister the removal of the school crossing supervisor subsidy for both Worthing


Road and Middleton Street in Moorabbin. It indicates that there is strong community support for the retention of the supervisors at those sites.

I have in my hand a petition addressed not to Parliament but to the council, containing more than 200 signatures of local residents asking for the retention of supervisors for the Worthing Road and Middleton Street school crossing sites. The withdrawal of this subsidy is a serious matter. The Director of the Road Traffic Authority said to the councils that they could have as many school crossing supervisors as they liked providing they paid for their services. It is a direct result of the government's attempt to put more responsibility on local government, which is not tolerable.

I ask the Minister to bring those matters to the attention of the Minister for Transport so that he may review the withdrawal of funding for school crossing supervisors at sites in Caulfield, Sandringham and Moorabbin. The southern suburbs are being deprived of funding by the Cain Labor government, and I ask the Minister to justify that.

The Hon. REG MACEY (Monash Province)-The matter I raise for the attention of the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources in his capacity as the Minister responsible for major projects relates to limited access roads, as previously proposed, to link the central business district of Melbourne with the Sandridge project in Port Melbourne. The citizens of Port Melbourne are much relieved now that the Minister has announced that the road link has been abandoned. Is the Minister prepared to give an undertaking that a portion of that link road extending from Queens Road, Whiteman Street through to Boundary Street, South Melbourne will no longer be required, as it was a necessary part of the access road link?

The Minister for Transport contacted the City of South Melbourne and pointed out that one of the reasons for the removal of the Clarendon Street rail bridge is to enable the construction of that portion of the limited access road link. Is the Minister prepared to announce that the limited access road project is to be abandoned and that there is no longer a need for that road link between Queensbridge Square and Boundary Street, South Melbourne, which was to be a link to Canterbury Road?

The Hon. J. G. MILES (Templestowe Province)-I refer to the Minister Assisting the Minister for Education a matter that was brought to her attention by Mr Storey on 26 October 1988 during debate on the motion for the adjournment of the House regarding physiotherapy training and the current problems facing potential graduates.

The Minister said that the matter would be resolved shortly, or words to that effect. In 1987, the former Minister for Education, Mr Cathie, said that the matter would be resolved, but up to date there has been no resolution. The Minister Assisting the Minister for Education stated that a reply would be made by her in mid-December.

I raise this matter again as a result of letters from two of my constituents who are concerned about their future. They are not aware of when the statement will be made. It is a complex matter which has incurred some dialogue and battle between the La Trobe University, the Lincoln Institute of Health Sciences, the University of Melbourne and the Victorian Allied Health Professionals Association physiotherapy members. They held a meeting on 18 October 1988 and passed a motion that clinical education contracts between the physiotherapy work force and the La Trobe University not be renewed for 1989 unless a firm commitment to relocate the course to the University of Melbourne is announced by the State government by 1 December 1988.


I received two letters from a Miss Wendy Peake and a Mr Simon Driver, both of Lower Templestowe. They expressed concern about their future. In her letter, Miss Wendy Peake states:

I would particularly like to draw your attention to motion 1 which will result in clinical placements of physiotherapy students being withdrawn in 1989. As clinical placements account for 21 out of36 weeks of our final year. there will not be any 1989 graduates and the whole course will be severely disrupted.

Will the Minister give urgent consideration to this matter before mid-December? The House is sitting in the first week of December and I seek an answer today or before 6 December. The two students in my electorate and others have to plan holidays and complete projects for next year.

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)Mr de Fegely raised a matter concerning the Stawell District Hospital. I was conscious of the issue when I visited Stawell recently and the Western Mining Corporation administration outlined the problem. The honourable member for Ripon in another place has brought the matter to my attention also. I have made some inquiries and it is apparent that the Department of Industry, Technology and Resources was not in a position not to apply the royalty charges; in other words, it was bound to apply them to be technically correct. On the other hand, an application has been made and, to say the least, it is different; perhaps questionable. I shall follow up the matter and investigate whether the decision initially made or the action taken can be rectified.

I believe the hospital had every reason to believe the work done by the Western Mining Corporation would be done free of charge and events have occurred since of which the hospital was not aware. I think the charge was bound to be made within the regulations and legislation that apply to mining.

Mr Lawson directed to my attention the issue of right of reply in the Senate. He directed the matter to my attention some months ago and I responded by way ofletter and some material I was able to gather for him. It is true that that right exists in the Australian Senate, and I note that the House of Representatives expects to implement a similar procedure in the next sessional period.

Several options exist: firstly, Mr Lawson could make this matter the subject of a motion in this House. Secondly, he may choose to refer it to the Standing Orders Committee; thirdly, he may choose a combination of those two, which, I suggest, is the best method. He could refer the matter to the Standing Orders Committee via a motion in this House and the House could express its opinion about the notion of right of reply. If the House were to decide that it wished to proceed with a reference to the Standing Orders Committee, that would be a reasonable way to style that motion.

If Mr Lawson wishes to initiate such a motion it would be a good idea for him to discuss the matter with the President first and then the Clerk. The government does not have a policy on the matter. If the initiative came from Mr Lawson in the way I suggest, in due course it would be a matter for consideration in another place and by the government.

Mr Macey asked about the intention of the proposed roadway between what is called Queensbridge Square and Boundary Road. The roadway he is talking about is an important element in the government's plans to develop Southbank.1t is a necessary portion of road and I will not say that the government will abandon it. It is true that what was called The Boulevard that was to continue further on to Port Melbourne has been abandoned. The first proposal is an important and necessary part of the Southbank development. I am certainly not in a position to say that it will be abandoned; it is a proposed road.


The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-Mr Birrell raised the issue of a response he received regarding a freedom of information request about the district health councils and he was concerned that Health Department Victoria was expressing the view that the FoI Act did not apply to the operations of district health councils. I shall examine that advice from the department and report back to Mr Birrell in due course.

Mr Wright raised the issue of the Health (Mosquito Control) Regulations 1988 and a statement of 30 September 1988 indicating that effectively the financial responsibility for issues relating to the spread of infection from mosquitos in local areas was the responsibility oflocal government. He expressed the view that there was an obligation on the State government to provide financial support. As he is aware, about fifteen to eighteen months ago financial support provided by the Commonwealth ceased.

The Hon. R. M. Hallam-They pulled out.

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-Yes, they pulled out unilaterally. I shall investigate the matter.

Mr Henshaw raised a matter on the action the government is taking on the AIDS issue and the implications that the tabling of the Green Paper will have on the day-today activities of Health Department Victoria and the health service providers in this area.

In Victoria, the situation with regard to AIDS and HIV infection is a cause for serious concern for all citizens. To 22 November 1988, 227 Victorians had been diagnosed with full AIDS. Of this number, 88 are known to have died and 44 per cent of this cumulative total were diagnosed during 1988. Health Department Victoria calculates that case numbers are doubling every twelve months. One of the few pieces of encouraging news is that, although Victoria has 26 per cent of Australia's population, it only has 20 per cent of the AIDS case load. More than 145 000 Victorians have been tested for antibodies to the AIDS virus. These tests reveal that 2092 of our fellow citizens have been infected.

In light of these facts it is important to quickly summarise what the government has done to combat this threat. In terms of prevention it has ensured that the blood supply is infection free and will remain so; introduced effective infection control guidelines and industrial agreements in all Victorian hospitals; provided funding for a wide range of educational material; given support for the AIDS Line telephone counselling service; ensured that workshops are run which have had more than 6500 participants; in collaboration with the Ministry of Education, ensured that curriculum guidelines are produced for schools and that substantial funds are provided to help the work of the various community-based organisations.

Victoria's in-patient facilities are coping well with the increased demand, and the excellent care provided at hospitals, such as Fairfield Hospital-as Mr Connard would be aware-is world class. We have also established an advisory committee on AIDS that draws the best advice from scientific, medical, nursing, community and government sources. The advisory committee, chaired by Professor lan Gust, continues the tradition begun by Professor David Penington of providing top quality advice. Such top level input and broadly based consultation provides a strong basis for clear government direction.

This effort deserves recognition and community support. The doctors and scientists working toward better care and treatment have made significant improvements. The gay community has also conducted an education campaign and has set up support networks which are having a considerable impact. In fact, without the dedication of


the large number of volunteers involved in AIDS work, our collective efforts would be much poorer.

In looking at Victoria's record, it is easy to see that the major directions of the Commonwealth's policy discussion paper are already under way in Victoria. The document that was tabled earlier today contained three major objectives: firstly, to minimise transmission of the human immunodeficiency virus; secondly, to support, care for and treat people infected with HIV; and, thirdly, to educate and prevent the infection of people who care for HIV -infected individuals.

I endorse these objectives and I hope all other members of Parliament will do so too and, as I said yesterday in response to a question from Mr Baxter, I welcome the bipartisan approach adopted by both my Federal and State colleagues, which is a good example to the wider community of the resolve we need to face this virus and its deadly effects. These objectives are backed up by a series of guiding principles that espouse the need for extensive understanding of the virus: the critical role of personal responsibility; the need for confidentiality; the role of education in changing behaviour; the need to promote proper, informed consent; and the fact that people who are infected retain the right to participate in society and to have access to quality health care.

These guiding principles have been the cornerstone of Victoria's response to AIDS and in fact we have been able to incorporate most of these points into legislation. The law has an important role to play in the battle against AIDS in Victoria. Parliament has recently passed the Health (General Amendment) Act, which achieves a balance between individual rights and individual responsibility.

It is necessary to make clear statements about what is acceptable and what is not. The balance achieved by the recent Act is a good model for the sort of legislation that will increasingly be needed by other States and Territories. It is clear that public health needs and human rights can and must work hand in hand where AIDS is concerned. Also we will be guided by initiatives that have been taken in other States and by the comments in the Green Paper. On this matter I am in complete agreement with my Federal counterpart, Dr Neal Blewett.

While the objectives of the policy discussion paper are clear and straightforward, I believe there will be substantial public debate and discussion about how to achieve these objectives. We welcome the dialogue and look forward to further discussions on the Green Paper this year.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I shall refer Mr Kennedy's matter to the Minister for Consumer Affairs. Under the Credit Act 1984, as Mr Kennedy pointed out, the rights of guarantors have been significantly increased. Under previous legislation the rights of guarantors were a forgotten issue. Often guarantors had fewer rights than the debtor, which was most unfair when it is considered that a guarantor receives no direct benefit under the Credit Act but is merely assisting the debtor to obtain credit.

The credit legislation provides a number of important rights for guarantors including: firstly, contracts of guarantee must be in writing and the guarantor must receive a copy of both the contract of guarantee and the credit contract being guaranteed; secondly, guarantors cannot be liable under the contract for an amount exceeding the debtor's liability under the credit contract plus reasonable enforcement expenses; thirdly, before proceedings are taken against a guarantor, the guarantor must be given written notice of the intention to take action; and fourthly, a guarantor may apply to the credit tribunal to have an unfair guarantee reopened and the guarantor's liability reconsidered. Session 1988-20


Despite those safeguards, it is fair to say that even now more work is being done on this issue. The current review of the credit legislation will ensure that guarantors remain protected, and perhaps be even better protected from unfair practices.

In answer to the matter raised by Mr Hall I stress that no guarantees have been given about the creation of an additional university. I know that Mr Hall listened carefully to what I said about the State-Commonwealth working party, which is a small bureaucratic working party set up to investigate the needs of students in the western suburbs of Melbourne and their access to university education and postsecondary education and whether there is a need for the provision offurther university education.

I take up the point Mr Hall made this morning in another debate about country towns when he again raised the question of the Ballarat, Bendigo and Gippsland colleges of T AFE having representation on that small working party. The answer is, "No". Indeed, Mr Hall knew that at the start. I am certain that representations and submissions that those colleges would wish to make would be listened to and weighed up. Usually a working party consults widely and I believe if any of those institutions wished to make submissions germane to the terms of reference its submissions would be considered.

I also remind Mr Hall that any advice that comes forward from the working party for the Victorian Ministers and the Commonwealth Minister will also go to the Higher Education Consultative Committee to be weighed up yet again, so if there is any underlying suggestion in this matter that the existing rural institutions might be harmed by anything that comes to light from the review that fear can be allayed. The Minister for Education, the Federal education Minister and I as Minister Assisting the Minister for Education do not know what will be the outcome of the review. We believe a short, well-structured working party ought to provide the information that is required.

Mr Hallam raised the matter of the Wimmera College of T AFE. I take up the point he made about the different operations and the kind of off-campus activities that have occurred throughout the Wimmera, although I have not seen them in operation. I understand from what Mr Hallam has said that secondary school, high school and technical school facilities have been used so that young people do not have to travel long distances to attend a major college.

I am not aware of the reason for the $300 000 cut to that service. I do not know whether Mr Hallam is correct when he says that would threaten, and perhaps even destroy, the educational model he has talked about because it sounds to me like a good educational model. I do not think the office of the State Training Board would demur from that, provided it seemed to work for the students who undertake the courses. All I can say in reply is that I shall make some inquiries about the areas in which money was expected to be saved in the administration of this program; perhaps some courses have wound down. At this stage I do not know which areas the office of the State Training Board would have in mind. As Mr Hallam knows, I shall get back to him speedily and, when the House adjourns, I shall have a word with him about it.

Finally, I assure Mr Miles that nobody in the dispute about the location of physiotherapy courses has been idle since Mr Storey first raised the issue in this House. A number of people associated with my Ministry and office have been hearing all sides of the argument because there are several sides to it. It may be interesting for Mr Miles to hear that last Monday a poll of physiotherapy students at the Lincoln Institute of ,Health Sciences campus was taken, resulting in nine to one voting for physiotherapy courses to remain at La Trobe University.


Although I realise that voices have been raised on every side in this debate, my office and I are ensuring that all the arguments are properly weighed up and balanced. I stand by the assurance that I gave the House several weeks ago that a decision will be brought down as soon as possible, certainly by the middle of December. This is a most complicated matter, and if Mr Miles had investigated it beyond the letters received from a couple of his constituents, he would realise that it is extremely difficult to find common ground at the moment. However, we are trying to work through the arguments, claims and counterclaims, and hope a decision will be made by midDecember.

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-Mr Chamberlain raised concern about the charges for bulk water to country areas, particularly citing the City of Horsham. He believes the increases in those charges are unreasonable. I shall obtain the details of the charges and the matching criteria from the responsible Minister, the Minister for Water Resources, and have a reply prepared for Mr Chamberlain.

Mrs Tehan raised the issue of the safety of children travelling in school buses and cited what seemed, on the face of the issue, to be an extreme case of 80 children travelling on one bus, and the fact that the process for review is not proceeding. She asked that the Minister for Transport review the regulations on safety. I shall pass on that request to the Minister for Transport and arrange for a response to be given to her.

Mr Mackenzie raised a situation in Geelong where the Society ofSt Vincent de Paul provides the only accommodation for homeless men. He suggested that, because of the changes occurring, that accommodation may not be available in the future, which would cause distress to those people. I am not aware of discussions or applications for assistance from the Ministry of Housing and Construction. However, I am open to the suggestion of having the Ministry investigate the situation to determine whether it can be of some assistance to the Society ofSt Vincent de Paul, and certainly, I hope, to be of more assistance than simply providing rail vouchers to enable those people to travel to Melbourne. That seems inconvenient. It is true, as Mr Mackenzie stated, that in following up a matter raised previously by Mr Henshaw, I shall be travelling to Geelong. I shall examine the possibility of including some consultation on the issue Mr Mackenzie has raised at the same time, and shall advise him if that is possible.

Mr Cox raised a matter regarding the design of Ministry of Housing and Construction houses being built in Box Hill. He expressed the opinion that those houses clash architecturally in appearance with the normal house design. I have found that opinions on architectural aesthetic merit vary considerably. I must admit that my reaction to some dwellings, whether they have been built by private enterprise or the Ministry, is to wonder how they reached the point of construction. All I can say is that the Ministry's practice has been to employ a variety or architects, some from the private sector and some from within the Ministry. I am not familiar with the particular design referred to, but I shall make inquiries about the history of the design and obtain a view on its architectural merits. If the opportunity arises, I shall look at the houses myself and provide a response to Mr Cox.

Mr Guest raised an issue concerning vacant blocks purportedly owned by the Ministry of Housing and Construction in Collingwood and in the inner suburbs. I am pleased he has raised the matter, which we mutually agree is of substance. I am equally concerned about the state of affairs. Once I was informed about it, I instigated a report on the matter and, given that it is related to one particular area at this time, I required that it be followed by a report on the metropolitan area and the rest of Victoria, indicating the holdings of the department and the status of planning for each of those holdings.


It would be totally unsatisfactory if the department were not building, in an expeditious way, on viable sites it holds. On receipt of that information, I anticipate that I will take whatever action is necessary and inform the honourable member of the results.

Mr Smith raised a matter relating to the Ministry of Transport regarding the lack of progress in the construction of the Mornington Peninsula Freeway. I shall take up the issue with the Minister for Transport and obtain a report on it, which I shall convey to Mr Smith. •

Finally, Mr Connard also raised a matter for my attention in my capacity as Minister representing the Minister for Transport relating to school crossing subsidy schemes, particularly the Road Traffic Authority subsidy for school crossing supervisors. I do not agree that these matters are handled in an arbitrary fashion, but I shall undertake to determine the criteria that have been applied in the area of Moorabbin about which he is concerned and supply that information to him so that he can pursue the matter.

The PRESIDENT -Order! Before putting the question, I desire to observe that the debate on the motion for the adjournment of the House tonight has taken more than 1 hour, not because of the number of issues raised but because of the way in which they have been raised and, in some cases, answered.

Some honourable members have forgotten the purpose of the adjournment debate, which is to allow honourable members to raise, briefly, a single issue and to receive a brief answer. The fault lies on the Ministerial side as well as with honourable members. The issues raised must be within the competence of the Victorian government to remedy. The matter raised must be in the form of a request, a query or a complaint, and that could normally be put very briefly; and it must not be a reflection on the existing state of the law, or imply that the law should be changed. In addition, the replies ought to be brief and the adjournment debate ought not to be taken as an opportunity for making statements of policy. Ample other opportunities exist for Ministers to do that by way of Ministerial statements.

The Hon. Haddon Storey-Such as question time.

The PRESIDENT-I realise question time these days is used to achieve the same result. In one case today a major statement of policy was made, which could have been made earlier in the day at the appropriate time, either by Ministerial statement or on the presentation of the report. In addition, the comments possibly offended against the rule against anticipation in that they were raised today instead of during the debate on a report which is listed for consideration on the next day of meeting.

All honourable members have, at one stage or another, received a copy of the guidelines on the adjournment debate, and I will ask the Clerk to circulate those guidelines again. I ask honourable members and Ministers to read them. Attention now having been drawn to them, I expect that those guidelines will be adhered to in the future.


The House adjourned at 4.42 p.m. until Tuesday, December 6.

Death of Mr John Albert Little 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 597

Tuesday,6 December 1988

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. A. J. Hunt) took the chair at 3.3 p.m. and read the prayer.

DEATH OF MR JOHN ALBERT LITTLE The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I

move: That this House expresses its sincere sorrow at the death, on 25 November 1988, of John Albert Little,

and places on record its acknowledgment of the valuable services rendered by him to the Parliament and the people of Victoria as a member of the Legislative Council for the Melbourne North Province from 1954 to 1958.

Jack Little was a member of this House during some of the most traumatic times that Parliament has ever experienced. However, he will perhaps more likely be remembered as a member of the Senate of the Commonwealth Parliament. Prior to his Parliamentary political career, Jack Little was a union official in the Victorian Boot Trade Employees Federation and a delegate to the Victorian Trades Hall Council and to the Australian Council of Trade Unions. Jack Little was born in Maryborough on 13 October 1914. As the son ofa retail shoe shop manager, he was educated at the East Brunswick and Thornbury State schools before starting work as a boot clicker.

After the second world war, he was active in the Victorian Boot Trade Employees Federation. He held several positions in that union, including those of State president, treasurer, and, in 1949, Federal vice-president. He was a full-time official of that union from 1948 to 1954.

Throughout that time, Mr Little was a member of the Australian Labor Party, having joined the Northcote branch, the Premier's father's branch, in 1940. He was elected State President of the Victorian branch of the ALP in both 1952 and 1953. Following a by-election in August 1954, he represented Melbourne North Province until his expulsion from the ALP during the split of 1955. He subsequently joined what was then called the Anti-Communist Labor Party, later known as the Democratic Labor Party; and he represented that party as the Leader in this House until his defeat in the State election of 1958. In subsequent years, he stood unsuccessfully as the DLP candidate in State elections for the seat of Northcote against the Honourable Frank Wilkes. He also unsuccessfully contested the Federal seats of Batman and Higinbotham, as well as unsuccessfully standing as a candidate for the Senate in the Federal elections of 1958, 1961 and 1964. Mr Little subsequently entered Federal Parliament as a DLP senator in 1967, holding that seat until the double dissolution of 1974.

He died on 25 November 1988 after a long illness, but not before he celebrated his golden wedding anniversary in September this year with his wife, Eileen. First and foremost, Jack Little was a family man. A reading of the press cuttings of his time in both this Parliament and the Federal Parliament demonstrates that he concentrated on family issues. In politics, it may be said that he kept to his lights at some cost to himself. He is survived by his wife and two sons, John and Peter, and their families. On behalf of all honourable members I extend to them our condolences on their sad bereavement.

The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-I wish to associate the Liberal Party with the expressions of condolence for John Albert Little. Jack Little was better known as Senator Jack Little, and his career was studded with a great deal of controversy. He had a very high media profile and will be remembered for his commitment to certain values throughout his political career.

598 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Death of Mr John Albert Little

He was born on 13 October 1914 in Maryborough, and passed away on 25 November 1988 after a long illness. Jack Little was an active political campaigner for the family unit throughout the 1960s and 1970s, and that would be the most fitting way to remember his contribution to public life. In arguing for the family values that were so important to him, he fought vigorously against the permissiveness and pornography that he saw in the society of his time. He said that the best thing that ever happened to him was his family, and that unit was at the centre of his beliefs at all times.

Jack Little was an active member of the Australian Labor Party. After twenty years on the factory floor he was elected to a number of senior official positions in the Victorian Boot Trade Employees Federation. In 1952 he was elected to the Legislative Council to represent Melbourne North Province. He became a senior office-bearer in the Victorian ALP a year later. His period as a senior office-bearer of that party was short, because he was expelled from the ALP in 1955. The Leader of the Government expressed in delicate terms the passion and controversy of that time and the way in which the split affected Jack Little's political life and those of many of his colleagues.

He joined the Democratic Labor Party on its formation, and entered the Federal Parliament as a DLP senator in 1967, holding his seat until the double dissolution of 1974. Any student of the politics of that time will reflect on the role played by the DLP in general, and by the late Jack Little in particular. Jack Little was outspoken on issues that were of great importance to him. Whether or not members of this Chamber shared those views we should respect him for speaking out-often at personal coston views that were important to him.

The family of Jack Little will be extremely saddened at this time and, on behalf of the Opposition, I express condolences to his wife and sons.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-On behalf of the National Party I support the motion of condolence to mark the death of Jack Little.

As has already been said, Mr Little was a man of principle. He was active in politics, in both the Victorian and the Federal Parliaments, in turbulent times. Mr Little was a member of the Australian Labor Party during the great split of the 1950s and he must surely have the distinction of being the only State president of any political party to be expelled from it while still holding a senior position in it.

Jack Little was a senator in the Federal Parliament during the turbulent period of office of former Prime Minister Whitlam. He was a key player in the events which led to the double dissolution of Federal Parliament in 1974, which virtually led to the extinction of the Democratic Labor Party-certainly its Parliamentary representationand to the subsequent events of 1975.

Jack Little was undoubtedly a man of strong conviction and was prepared to fight for those strongly held beliefs with a great deal of authority and strength. I have no doubt that Mr Little, being elected to Melbourne North Province in 1954-a safe Labor Party seat-would have been destined for a long career in this Chamber were it not for the split within the Labor Party.

I extend to his widow and family the condolences of the National Party.

The Hon. B. A. E. SKEGGS (Templestowe Province)-I add my tribute to the late Jack Little, who was a resident of Iv an hoe, the suburb in which I reside.

I first met Jack Little in 1963 when I contested the Federal seat of Batman for the Liberal Party. Jack Little was then contesting that seat as a candidate of the Democratic Labor Party. I got to know him quite well and found him to be a person of great integrity, who had a strong belief in family and defence issues. Mr Little was an articulate speaker on most matters and was a person who moved easily within the


local community. He was on good terms with his Labor Party opponent at that time, as well as with me, and I found him to be a person who was reliable in any undertakings and a good political operator, no doubt due to his long experience as a member of the Australian Labor Party before the formation of the Democratic Labor Party.

Mr Little had a long and distinguished career in the Victorian Boot Trade Employees Federation and in the Labor movement. Mr Little expressed to me a great belief in the importance of Upper Houses of Parliament and it was no surprise to me that he offered himself as a candidate for the Senate of Federal Parliament. He had the distinction of serving in two Upper Houses, at both State and Federal level, and I know he would have enjoyed that experience.

Mr Little came to live in Ivanhoe some years ago and his family has settled there and has done extremely well. One of his sons is a medical practitioner of high standing in the community. Even after Mr Little left the Federal Parliament he still took a considerable interest in the local community in which he lived. In more recent years he suffered considerable ill health, but I saw him at polling booths in East Ivanhoe regularly during elections for both State and Federal Parliaments and he would often have a chat about community affairs and politics in general. He never lost his interest in politics.

I saw him earlier this year at a municipal election, and he was still interested in what was happening in the community. He was suffering from loss of memory due to his ill health. However, he was still alert to the important political facts of life and took a keen interest in what was happening on the political front.

Jack Little was a person of high integrity with passionate beliefs in politics; he was prepared to go all the way for those beliefs. He played the game as he saw it-strongly. He believed in the importance of the family, in Australia as a nation, and the importance of its defence, and he was strongly motivated on those issues.

I join in paying tribute to Jack Little as a former Parliamentarian who served in both Federal and State Parliaments and also as a respected resident of Iv an hoe, where he was very much liked. .

The motion was agreed to in silence, honourable members showing their unanimous agreement by standing in their places.

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources) (By leave)-Before moving the motion for the adjournment of the House as a mark of respect, I indicate to the House that in recent days another former member of Parliament has died. I know that one or two honourable members would like to make comment on that, but not by way of a special motion. The member I speak of is Alan Alfred Campbell Lind, a former member of the Legislative Assembly, who died a day or two ago. He was greatly loved by members of my party, and by members of all parties, for his contribution to Parliament. It is sad to have to report that a man who in recent times had been energetic and still taking a major interest in public affairs, particularly in Dandenong where he lived, has passed away.

Alan Lind was the nephew of Sir Albert Lind, a well-known member of the former Country Party in this Parliament. Both men were residents of Bairnsdale. Alan Lind was educated in Bairnsdale State and high schools and then attended Melbourne High School. He went on to Melbourne Teachers College and was a schoolteacher with the former Victorian Education Department from 1932 to 1952.

Alan Lind first won a seat in Parliament in December 1952 as a member of the Legislative Assembly for Mildura. He held that seat until April 1955 when he was defeated at the election. He then stood once or twice unsuccessfully for the seat of


Dandenong until he won it by way of a by-election in December 1969. He remained the member for Dandenong until March 1979.

I know it is unusual for me to comment in this way, but I am conscious that one or two honourable members wish to pay tribute to the late Mr Lind. I thank the House for its indulgence in allowing honourable members to make comments in a manner that is not usual. Condolence motions for former members of the other place are usually moved only when the member has been a Minister of the Crown or was a recent member of the other place. This procedure is unusual, and I thank the House for its indulgence.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province) (By leave)-On behalf of the Liberal Party I wish to associate the Opposition with the remarks made by the Leader of the Government. I served with Alan Lind in the Legislative Assembly from 1973 to 1976 during which time I came to know him well and to respect him for his work both inside and outside Parliament. He had been a teacher for some 34 years and, before he became a member of Parliament for the second time, he was the Principal of the Hallam State School. He taught at Mildura before he was elected to represent that area in 1952.

Wherever Alan Lind went he was universally respected and liked. In recent years he was a regular visitor to Parliament House and one always got the same gruff but friendly greeting from him. On a number of occasions I had the opportunity of speaking with Alan Lind about his son Graeme, who is a respected citizen of Hors ham. I join with the Leader of the House in expressing condolences to the family and express the Liberal Party's thanks for his life of public service.

The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province) (By leave)-On behalf of the National Party, I support the remarks of the Leader of the House. Alan Lind was a well-known citizen of Mildura for a number of years. He came to Mildura as a schoolteacher in 1950 and we became close friends. He contested and won the Mildura seat in 1952. It was only the second occasion the seat had been held by any party other than the National Party. The late Lou Garlick was the previous member, and history has repeated itself again. Alan Lind was a member of the Legislative Assembly from 1952 to 1955, when he was defeated. He then moved to Dandenong and contested that seat four times before being elected.

As the local Parliamentarian in Mildura, he proved to be a popular and effective member. He was an ex-serviceman and Mildura is very much an ex-servicemen's city. It had the highest enlistment rate of its citizens during both the first and second world wars. Alan Lind was a member of the Returned Services League and a member of Legacy, and he retained his interest in both organisations. In recent years he returned to Mildura on many occasions.

Alan is remembered also for his association with and work for retarded children. He was largely responsible for the establishment of the W. J. Christie Centre for retarded children at Mildura. He was president for a number of years when Mrs Barbara Whitley was director; she is well known to a number of members of Parliament opposite. A few weeks ago Mr Best and I were at the Castlemaine Bowling Club. I spoke with AlfWhitley, whose wife was the director of the centre, and we spoke about Alan's contribution to the centre.

Alan was eventually elected the member for Dandenong. It is my opinion that Alan and others laid the groundwork for the Labor Party Opposition to enable them to be elected to government. Alan was the nephew of the late Sir Albert Lind, the former honourable member for Gippsland East, and it is of note that only three members have represented Gippsland East.

Death of Mr John Alber! Little 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 601

The National Party conveys its sympathy to the widow and family of the late Alan Lind.

The Hon. C. F. VAN BUREN (Eumemmerring Province) (By leave)-I express regret at Alan Lind's passing. I met Alan in the late 1960s and 1970s when I worked for the ALP and I got to know him well. He was an excellent member in the area he represented. Everybody knew that he would help anyone and would give support. He gave support to me when I was seeking election. In the 1970s, he and the Honourable Ian Cathie were the only Labor Party members who held seats south of the Yarra River.

It is legendary that people came from far and wide to talk with Alan Lind. His generosity was well known and councillors and former councillors and my colleague, the honourable member for Dandenong North, Jan Wilson, relate the story that when people were in trouble and short of money it was of no surprise to find a food basket at the front doorstep-put there by Alan Lind. He was well loved and known for his work with retarded children and was one of the founding members of the Wallara Day Training Centre and the Dandenong Workers Club.

Alan Lind was involved in his community; he served it well. Everyone knew him. When one attended a function one would always find Alan in attendance. He was always doing something to help the community he lived in.

Alan Lind always treated me as a friend and helped me as a member of Parliament. When he visited Parliament House he would come and sit at my desk and then a few days later he would ring to ask whether I had found his pen or papers that he had left behind. He was an active person. He would visit my office on a daily basis to talk with me. I pay tribute to him and I extend my condolences to his wife, Marie, and to his children. The people of Dandenong also will greatly miss him. He was a true Labor man.

The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province) (By leave)-I join in the sentiments expressed by my colleagues concerning Alan Lind. Prior to my election to Parliament I was associated with and knew Alan Lind well, as the area where I live adjoined the Dandenong electorate. He entered Parliament in a by-election following the retirement of a former Liberal Party member, Mr Len Reid.

During Alan Lind's career in Parliament his reputation was one to which we should all aspire. He represented all in his area and not just those of his own political party. He represented the interests of those in my party and had regard for the genuine concerns of all constituents. He was considered highly by all members of my party in the area. He was steadfast and determined in the interests of his electorate. I extend my condolences to his wife and family. I regret his passing.

The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley Province) (By leave)-I rise to say a few words about a great friend and colleague, Alan Lind. I first met Alan in 1960. Prior to that time he had been the honourable member for Mildura but he had been defeated in 1955. He never made a secret of the fact that he was determined to get back into Parliament. He was re-elected in 1969, but during the period he was out of Parliament he continued to act and work as if he were a member of Parliament without the pay or the facilities. He was the Principal of Hallam State School, and enjoyed a first-class reputation in the education field. He was also campaign director for the seat ofBruce. He contested the seat of Dandenong over the years from 1958 to 1969 when he won it at a by-election. Alan Lind set the pace for the Labor Party resurgence in the eastern suburbs after the difficulties of the 1950s. He was a person who never gave in.

In 1969, when the former member for Dandenong, Len Reid, retired from State Parliament to contest a Federal seat, Alan Lind stood for the seat and won it. He was


re-elected at the next general election and held that seat until 1979 when he retired and the present Treasurer became his replacement. Alan was given one of the biggest send-offs ever given a member of Parliament in the Dandenong area; approximately 1000 people attended, such was the affection in which he was held by his community.

Alan Lind was very much a family man. He was devoted to his first wife, Lilian, who died after a long illness. He later married an old school friend, Marie, now his widow. Alan and his second wife, Marie, were also a devoted couple. Alan had a very loud, clear and cheerful voice and a booming laugh; one always knew when he was around. He had a tremendous determination to succeed in whatever he took on. He was a great worker for the Carry On (Vic.) club, the Uncle Bobs Club, and many other worthy institutions. Alan also founded the Dandenong Workers Club some 25 years ago. In fact, the club recently celebrated its 25th anniversary.

One strange thing about Alan was that he kept all his records on the Mildura Australian Labor Party how-to-vote cards that he had saved since 1955. When he made a speech in ParlIament or elsewhere or when he took notes he would produce out of his pocket the Mildura how-to-vote cards and make his notations on them.

As I said, Alan was a great family man and a great friend or ours. He was a perfect example to anyone who aspires to becoming a member of Parliament. He knew how to look after people and how to treat them with sympathy and understanding, and he certainly knew how to work hard.

I express my condolences to his widow Marie, his son Graeme, his daughters Orme and Marianne, and his grandson and namesake, Alan.

The Hon. B. A. E. SKEGGS (Templestowe Province) (By leave)-As one of the three members of Parliament to have served with Alan Lind in another place and to now be present in this Chamber, I believe it is fitting for me to record a tribute to Alan because he was certainly one of the better liked members of the Legislative Assembly during his career in that place.

He came from quite a remarkable political family. As honourable members have heard, his uncle was Sir Albert Lind, who was a doyen of the then Country Party. Alan followed the Australian Labor Party and served it well. He also had the distinction of being one of the few members to serve in both a country electorate and a metropolitan electorate. It is a tribute to his perseverance that after his term as the honourable member for Mildura he should so persistently attempt over so many successive elections to win the seat of Dandenong. It would have been difficult to campaign against a member of the tremendous vitality and standing ofLen Reid, who then held the seat, but in the end, when a by-election was eventually held when Len Reid moved to the Federal sphere, the opportunity came for Alan Lind to serve once again.

He gave excellent service not only as a member of Parliament for the seat of Dandenong but also to the community in which he lived. There is no doubt that he was extremely active in Returned Services League affairs, in the Carry On (Vic.) club, the Uncle Bobs Club, and other organisations. I am familiar with those institutions and I knew of Alan's work through the Licensed Clubs Association. He was a strong contributor to that organisation, of which he became a member after having served as President of the Dandenong Workers Club and playing a leading role in the development of that club over many years.

It is fair to say that Alan Lind was liked by all who knew him and by all who served with him in the Legislative Assembly. It is true that he had a very strong and resonant voice and a cheery laugh. He was always friendly. One could always sit down and have a good chat with Alan and know that one was speaking with him in confidence and with mutual respect.


I join with the other honourable members in paying tribute to Alan's career as a very good contributor as a Parliamentarian and as a citizen.

The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province) (By leave)-I was saddened when I was told by the Leader of the House just before the commencement of this sitting of the death of Alan Lind. It came as a great surprise and shock to me. I first came to know Alan Lind when I came to this place in 1973, but I had known something of him prior to that. I came to know of him through a mutual friend, Perce Freckleton, who knew AIan well and who was a friend of my family. As a result, when Perce heard of my intention to stand for Parliament, he gave me a run-down on Alan Lind's background.

I was fortunate enough to serve on the former Public Works Committee with AIan Lind from 1976 until 1979 and, wherever we went in Victoria, AIan always knew someone. He had a fantastic memory for names, and introduced me to the Mildura Working Man's Club. He had a great knowledge of a place in Mildura that makes a substance known as Mildara. I have to confess that on a number of occasions we sampled some of the output and found it very enjoyable.

Recently I picked up a copy of a Dandenong newspaper and read of the 25th anniversary of the Dandenong Workers Club. As one would expect, AIan Lind was a founding member of that club. He was an ardent member of the Returned Services League and supported every possible cause in which the RSL was involved. As an earlier speaker said, he was a most popular member of another place. I found through my travels that one could not help but be struck by the popularity of AIan Lind with whomever he met. He was a great man and I am delighted to have known him. I pass on to his wife, Marie, my heartfelt sympathy.

The PRESIDENT -Order! With the indulgence of the House, I feel impelled to add my remarks to what has been said. I had the privilege of serving for six years in the same area as AIan Lind. For nine years the seat of Dandenong formed part of the South Eastern Province, and for six of those years we mutually served the same electors.

No-one could have asked for a better person with whom to work. No-one could have asked for a more cooperative person. The fact that we were of different parties made no difference to him because he put his electors first at all times. On no occasion did he seek to take political advantage, and I can recall that when I went to the Dandenong show he went out of his way to introduce me to electors, to dignitaries, to exhibitors, and to others there. That is the sort of man he was.

He had an enormous grasp of everything that was happening in his electorate and he participated most actively indeed. He was universally respected by members of all political parties and by those people of no political persuasion. He had the knack of endearing himself to everybody by his work and, more particularly, by his attitude.

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I thank honourable members for their comments with regard to Alan Lind and, although this was not a formal motion, I shall ensure that the comments made today are suitably collated and presented to Alan Lind's family. It is clear that members of this House have noted his passing with great sadness.

With regard to the late John Albert Little, I move: That, as a further mark of respect to the memory of the late John Albert Little, the House do now

adjourn until five o'clock this day. -'


604 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 The Constitution Act Amendment Bill

The House adjourned at 3.39 p.m.

The PRESIDENT took the chair at 5.3 p.m.

THE CONSTITUTION ACT AMENDMENT (ELECTORAL REFORM) BILL

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction), was read a first time.

TRUSTEE COMPANIES (AMENDMENT) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. E. H.

WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources), was read a first time.

SPEECHES ON ADJOURNMENT OF SITTING The PRESIDENT -Order! Honourable members present for the debate on the

motion for the adjournment of the sitting on the last day of meeting will recall that I made comments about the purpose of the debate and indicated my intention to have guidelines circulated. Those guidelines, together with guidelines in relation to questions, have been circulated today in the Chamber.

I invite all honourable members to read the material in the hope of ensuring that their contributions during both question time and the adjournment debate are within the relevant guidelines.


FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-The Minister for Health

will be aware that on 23 August 1988 my colleague, Mr Birrell, lodged a freedom of information request for documents relating to claims for expenses by the Chief General Manager of Health Department Victoria. No reply has been received and the answer of the department is now six weeks overdue. Why has the department failed to release the documents? Will the Minister now direct the chief general manager to make the information available for public scrutiny?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-I am pleased to inform the House that in response to 117 freedom of information requests since the beginning of 1986, the government has provided more than 10 000 documents to the Leader of the Opposition in this place, Mr Birrell. It is also pleased to inform the House that it has responded to more than 100 of the 117 Fol requests and has spent more than $500 000 in replying to the requests.

All the requests are being met and have been met in good faith; they shall continue to be met. Mr Birrell has often made the point that too many public servants are employed in the health administration field. The government will not provide extra staff to meet the FoI requests. It will not divert people from the day-to-day business of health administration. IfMr Storey claims that Mr Birrell is doing his job by making

Questions without Notice 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 605

117 requests in three years-more than the combined requests of all other shadow Ministers-perhaps Mr Storey is not doing his job!

The government is more than happy to examine the specific outstanding requests and to supply the answers in good time.

EMPLOYMENT OF FORMER MEMBER The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-My question is directed to

the Minister for Health; I hope it does not transgress the guidelines circulated. In respect of the position recently taken up by Mrs J. Dixon in Health Department Victoria, is Mrs Dixon filling an existing post, as has been reported? If so, for how long has the post been vacant? What is the job description for the post? Is Mrs Dixon's emolument the same as that which previously applied?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-Mrs Dixon has been employed as a temporary exempt senior executive public servant for a period of six months to examine the issue of Commonwealth-State relations in respect of nursing home policy. Mrs Dixon is more than adequately equipped to undertake the task because it is clear from her experience as a Parliamentarian and particularly from her experience as chairperson of the Parliamentary Social Development Committee that she has a number of unique skills.

I am pleased to advise Mr Baxter that among her referees are Mr Storey and Mr Hallam, and the government welcomes them as referees. This is a most important appointment. Entering into this period, when there will undoubtedly be a Federal election in 1989 and when the issue of older people's programs will have a significant focus, it is of the utmost importance that Victoria develops not only a continuing relationship with the Commonwealth government but also extracts the maximum benefits from nursing home policy and the application of CAM and SAM proposals, which are not working as well as they might.

It is a sensitive appointment, and the government could not have a more appropriate person in this role. I am delighted to have been able to appoint Mrs Dixon.

DISCUSSION PAPER ON INDUSTRY TRAINING The Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika Province)-Is the Minister Assisting

the Minister for Education with responsibility for Post-Secon~ Education aware that today the Federal Minister for Employment, Education and TraIning, Mr Dawkins, released an important discussion paper on industry training in Australia? If so, will she advise the House of the nature of that paper and the government's response?

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister Assisting the Minister for Education)-The Federal Minister for Employment, Education and Training released a discussion paper entitled "Industry Training in Australia: The Need for Change" this morning. The paper follows an undertaking given by the Minister last May to review the state of industry training in Australia with special emphasis on industry'S financial contribution to the growth of training.

As I understand it, the paper is very much a discussion paper, and there is no commitment to any particular line of Federal government action at this stage. The State government obviously welcomes the release of Mr Dawkins's paper and the national debate that will probably spin off. The government notes his undertaking to consult widely, particularly with State governments.

606 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Questions without Notice

The Victorian government does not have a final position, but it has given a strong commitment to for~ng close links between the education and training system and industry. Victorian Initiatives such as the establishment of the State Training Board and the Victorian Education Foundation are two such commitments. The State Training Board, which is really the government's principal adviser on training issues, has considered the issue of industry investment in training. In so doing, it has set out a number of principles that should be useful. Among those are the following: a national framework should be established to encourage upgraded industry investment; a system of greater industry contributions should recognise voluntary or negotiated industry training contributions made by industry and enterprises; funds raised should be distributed under the auspices of industry training boards; any system to be phased in should ensure clear understanding and broad support for the initiative; close links should be established between public and private sector training to ensure that efficiency, consistency, accreditation, and testing objectives are maintained; a commitment to public sector training should be maintained alongside growing private industry training investment--

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-On a point of order, Mr President, I have not found the answer to this in the rules for questions you have just circulated to honourable members because the document does not deal with the rules for answers. But in the past it has been clear that some Ministers have taken the opportunity of using question time to make Ministerial statements.

I direct to your attention the fact that the Minister is apparently reading a very lengthy statement in response to this question. It is more appropriate for such a response to be given by way of Ministerial statement than by answering a question without notice.

The PRESIDENT -Order! Previously a similar point of order was raised in the House, and I undertook to consider the matter and have discussions with the Leaders of all parties. I had those discussions. We generally agreed that Ministerial statements ought not be made in question time, for another appropriate time to make Ministerial statements is available.

However, it was agreed further that Ministers should have some latitude in answering questions in a way that falls short of a full Ministerial statement and that, if undue time were taken, I should compensate for that by ensuring that honourable members have the opportunity of asking an adequate number of questions. Normally I extend question time to ensure that thirteen questions are asked on a given day. I shall take into account the time that Ministers have taken by extending question time so that honourable members are provided with adequate opportunity for asking questions at all stages. There is thus no point of order.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister Assisting the Minister for Education)-Thank you, Mr President. I was at the point of concluding my answer, which falls far short of a Ministerial statement. Given the significance of the discussion paper released by Mr Dawkins, the Federal Minister for Employment, Education and Training, I thought it important to place on record some of the advice given to the government by the State Training Board. The discussion paper seeks to address all the changes in industry and training-the restructuring, to some extent, of industry in this country. I perhaps continued speaking for too long in an attempt to refer to those issues by enunciating five or six principles. However, my answer was certainly nothing like a Ministerial statement as I was careful to ensure that it did not become a Ministerial statement.

The PRESIDENT -Order! The answer was something like a Ministerial statement; it certainly was not a full Ministerial statement. One of the points regarding Ministerial statements is that they are normally in writing and it is not always possible on a fresh


announcement to do that, but the opportunity might be given for honourable members to move that they be taken into account at a later day or even later that day. If Mr Storey feels the answer was of such a nature, he will have an opportunity a little later to move that it be taken into account.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-On the point of order, Mr President, does that mean an honourable member can move a motion that any question be taken into account later this day?

The PRESIDENT -Not normally, but if the answer is in the nature ofa Ministerial statement, that could be taken into account when the House considers notices of motion.

DRINKING WATER QUALITY REGULATIONS The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-On 31 October, I asked the

Minister for Health whether he was aware that drinking water quality regulations had been released in draft form by Health Department Victoria and that the draft regulations provided extraordinary powers for the chief general manager of the department, including the power to commit individual water boards to substantial capital outlays, irrespective of the impact of those outlays upon their budgets or the ultimate cost to consumers. The Minister for Health responded by saying he was not aware of the draft regulations. Is he now in a position to give an undertaking that water boards across this State will not have their role and responsibility undermined by the provisions of the draft regulations?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-Draft regulations relating to drinking water quality have been released by Health Department Victoria, I assume with the concurrence of the Department of Water Resources. The regulations will not come into effect without consultation with the industry and to my knowledge they have not come into effect to date. I welcome any comments from honourable members and from members of the water boards regarding the effects the draft regulations might have, and I am certainly happy to meet with members of the water boards in respect of drinking water quality standards.

The government is seeking to improve the quality of drinking water, particularly in areas outside the metropolitan area. There are problems in the metropolitan area but there are even more significant problems outside the metropolitan area which, in the interests of the domestic supply in provincial cities and small country towns, is an issue that ought to be pursued, as has been requested by many water boards in country areas.

HEALTH DEPARTMENT VICTORIA REGIONAL OFFICES The Hon. G. H. COX (Nunawading Province)-On 17 March 1986, the Chief

General Manager of Health Department Victoria stated that: In the suburbs, the department is negotiating to establish regional offices in the major regional hospitals.

He continued: It is totally wrong to suggest that suburban regional directors will be based in the city.

I ask the Minister for Health whether suburban regional directors will not actually be moved to the regional offices and will continue to be based solely in the city.

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-Mr Birrell has raised this matter on more than one occasion. The State has eight regional health offices-five in country


regions and three in the metropolitan area. The five country regional offices are in Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Benalla, and Traralgon. The metropolitan regional offices will continue to operate from head office. As has been demonstrated since their inception, their activities have been effective.

No section of the community has requested that the regional offices be relocated to suburban centres. The chief general manager and the management generally of Health Department Victoria will continue to monitor the effectiveness of locating regional offices in the central city area. At present, that situation will remain. However, if for management reasons the department decides to relocate the offices outside the head office building, I shall be happy to consider that pr~posal.

The Hon. R. I. Knowles-The chief general manager was wrong last year, was he?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-In response to Mr Knowles's interjection, I repeat that, as the chief general manager has found the metropolitan regional offices to be effective since their establishment in their operation and location, there has not been any demand for health service providers to be relocated away from head office.

CORRUPTION IN QUEENSLAND The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley Province)-I ask the Minister for Industry,

Technology and Resources, as the representative in this place of the Premier, whether he is aware of reports of the Fitzgerald inquiry into corruption relating to funds being directed to the National Party in Queensland. What are the laws in Victoria relating to financial sponsorship of political parties?

The PRESIDENT -Order! The first part of the question is an observation unrelated to the administration of government in Victoria; the second part requires an opinion on a point of law and is not in accordance with the guidelines. Mr Kennedy has the opportunity of rephrasing his question.

The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY -A little further into the question is more detail, Mr President. Do those laws provide protection for Victoria's electoral system?

The PRESIDENT-Order! Mr Kennedy is seeking an opinion on a point of law. The question is out of order.

ST VINCENT'S HOSPITAL The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY (Nunawading Province )-Is the Minister for

Health aware that in the latest annual report of St Vincent's Hospital, the chief executive officer, Mr Pruscino, stated that "public hospital beds were closed due to inadequate funding"? He also concluded that "little attention is being paid to correcting the cause of the problem". Can the Minister guarantee that no further public hospital beds will be shut in Victoria's major hospitals due to government funding policies?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-As a result of the endeavours of St Vincent's Hospital for the year ended 30 June 1988 the number of people on the waiting list for elective surgery has been reduced from 1600, which was the figure as at 1 July 1987, to 1100, as at 30 June 1988. The level of funding to the hospital has increased substantially over the past two financial years. During that period, the number of people treated in the hospital has reached record level. The ~overnment has full confidence in the capacity ofSt Vincent's Hospital to operate at eXIsting levels.


The government is pleased that in the next two or three years the hospital will venture into an exciting era.

The hospital will continue to forge closer relations with St George's Hospital. As indicated in the announcements made earlier this week, that will enable the development of closer links with the Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital to ensure that that hospital prospers because of a closer association with St Vincent's Hospital and the faculty of medicine at the University of Melbourne.

Most importantly, because of the current physical stock ofSt Vincent's Hospital, it will be embarking on a major redevelopment program, which will enter the planning and design stage in 1989, and construction will commence during the life of this Parliament. It will probably be the most significant development for the hospital since its inception. The government is more than happy to be a party to that development, together with Sister Anthea, the Sister Administrator of St Vincent's Hospital; Mr Pruscino, and Mr Tony Sallmann, the chairman of the advisory council. The government looks forward to an exciting future for the hospital with considerable enthusiasm. It will be a most effective partnership.

FAMILY ALLOWANCE SUPPLEMENT The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-Will the Minister for Housing

and Construction explain to the House why the family allowance supplement which is provided by the Federal government to assist low-income families should be regarded as disposable income for ascertaining rent payments for families under the family rebate scheme, which often results in at least 15 per cent of that allowance being taken by the State government? It is my view that that would be contrary to the government's social justice strategy. Will the Minister ensure that such deserving families receive the full amount, as intended by the Federal government?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-As Mr Mackenzie would be aware, the Commonwealth government has recently introduced changes to the family allowance supplement. The changes that have been introduced are complicated. Basically, the allowance represents a form of increased income. Not to count the allowance as income would have resulted in considerable inequities being suffered by tenants who receive other benefits that are counted. Before the recent changes there was a considerable degree of consultation between the States and the Federal government. Many submissions were put forward, and the submission from Victoria argued for the smallest proportion of that additional allowance to be counted in the formula. Certainly, the proportion was much less than that proposed by the State of Queensland.

In the end, the Victorian position was adopted by both the States and the Commonwealth, and that is the formula that now applies. As I said, it is a complicated formula, which was the result of a lengthy period of consultation. I shall provide Mr Mackenzie with a paper from my department which was prepared as a result of those discussions. If he reads it he will understand that the formula is a fair one and that it is appropriate that the matter is treated in this way.

SELF-BUILD PROGRAM The Hon. C. F . VAN BUREN (Eumemmerring Province)-The Minister for

Housing and Construction will be aware that there are many low-income families in Doveton and Dandenong, which are in the province that I represent. Those families have difficulty in raising deposits for homes. There is often a gap between the deposits


that are required and the amounts those families are able to save. Will the Minister explain how the self-build program has been of assistance to low-income earners in the province that I represent?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-The self-build program enables people who are either unable or not easily able to save a deposit for a house to have an opportunity of purchasing a house. People who have the ability to contribute their labour in lieu of savings can approach the Ministry of Housing and Construction and obtain, firstly, an overdraft on which they can draw for building materials or use to contribute to the purchase price of a block of land. At a subsequent time, when they have completed the house, that overdraft can be converted into a mortgage in the same form as the home opportunity loans with the benefit of the 20 to 25 per cent of income cap on repayments. The self-build program has proved successful and approximately 500 householders have built their homes under this system.

The Ministry of Housing and Construction has extended the process to what is called "group self-build". Last Friday in Wodonga I launched the first program of this type. Twelve people are joining together to pool their skills to build twelve homes over a twelve-month period, with advice and assistance from the Ministry. The twelve people have skills such as tiling, plumbing and carpentry and have had some initial training. Such programs are not uncommon overseas, but are less common in Australia.

The program has commenced with much enthusiasm and is a worthwhile initiative. If it proves successful it will be extended to other areas. People in Melton and Werribee have already shown interest in the program. As the program is a new venture it will be necessary to monitor its progress. The Ministry will give the people involved every assistance and the group self-build program should eventually be an extension of the already successful self-build program.

LAND PRICES IN MELBOURNE The Hon. R. S. de FEGELY (Ballarat Province)-The question I direct to the

Minister for Housing and Construction concerns increasing land prices in Melbourne, which are a significant portion of the cost confronting all would-be home buyers. Does the Minister agree with the claim of the Housing Industry Association that the policy of the Urban Land Authority to sell land by public auction rather than by the ValuerGeneral's valuation procedure is a contributing factor in the rapidly rising land prices in Melbourne?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-I cannot agree with the last part of Mr de Fegely's assertion or his reporting of the Urban Land Authority'S policy. The principal factor in the escalating price of land is speculation by people who purchase land in key locations, wait for the surrounding land to be built up, services to be provided by State and local governments and, at the appropriate time, realise a large profit on their purchase. Those people artificially create a shortage of land, thus increasing the price of that land.

Land is available in Melbourne but, unfortunately, it is tied up by land speculators. The Urban Land Authority provides land for people who wish to build on it and releases land with covenants which require the purchasers, whether they are builders or private individuals, to build on it within a certain period. The operation of the Urban Land Authority is very positive, because it unlocks land that would otherwise be locked up by speculators.

The matter to which Mr de Fegely referred has to be seen in context. The Urban Land Authority sells land by public auction and also by a rationing method, as recently


occurred in Broadmeadows, where approximately 160 people participated in a ballot for 67 blocks. The balloting system used was the selection of numbered marbles; the people with the appropriately numbered marbles obtained the land at the ValuerGeneral's valuation, which was displayed on a board delineating the blocks of land. That also has merit.

It is a matter of judgment about which way is preferable in certain situations, and arguments can be made for both ways; for example, having the Urban Land Authority playing a role in the market or giving priority to public auction. As the Minister responsible, I monitor that matter in consultation with Cabinet colleagues who have expertise in their Ministries and who have a role to play in this area.

HOUSING STANDARDS The Hon. R. A. BEST (North Western Province)-Is it a fact that the Minister for

Housing and Construction is proposing to transfer the responsibility for housing standards from the Ministry of Housing and Construction to the Ministry for Planning and Environment and that, as a result, the ultimate responsibility for operations, enforcement, and costs involved in substandard housing will be passed back to the respective municipalities?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-The housing standards area has a long history, as Mr Best probably knows, dating back some 50 years. Recently I attended a meeting of existing and past members who had performed roles in the housing standards area; it certainly dates back to the inception of the former Housing Commission in Victoria. It was initially directed at slum landlords and the problems encountered by tenants when landlords would not make any effort to provide suitable standards of habitation for their tenants. It certainly arose from widespread concern, and it played an important role.

In current situations the role of housing standards is less easily defined, but I believe they still have an important role to play. The question is whether responsibility for the standards should be placed in a Ministry dealing with local government or whether it should remain where it is. I am reviewing the matter in conjunction with other colleagues, and no decision has been made at this time.

ANZAC FRIGATE CONTRACT The Hon. B. W. MIER (Waverley Province)-It has recently been reported that a

combined mission of representatives from industry, government, and the trade union movement visited New Zealand for the purpose of promoting New Zealand's participation in the Victorian bid for the Anzac frigate contract. Will the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources advise the House of the outcome of the mission?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)Last week a tripartite mission visited New Zealand to foster New Zealand interest and involvement in the Victorian bid for the Anzac frigate contract. Submissions are due by 19 January and a decision will be made in the middle of the year. Victoria is putting in a strong bid, and is supporting AMEC Consolidated, the new owner of the Williamstown dockyards.

The tripartite mission included nine persons: Mr John White, Mr Tony Shepherd, and Dr John Stals from AMEC Consolidated; three representatives from the Trades Hall Council-the Secretary, Mr John Halfpenny, Mr John Jensen, and Mr John Ryan; Mr Bob Herbert, the Chief Executive Officer of the Metal Trades Industry


Association; and Mr Grant Haselgrove and Mr Peter Morgan from the Department of Industry, Technology and Resources.

The mission had discussions with employers, trade unions, and government officials over four days in Auckland, Whangarei, New Plymouth, Wellington and Christchurch. The mission explained the real benefits that would flow to New Zealand industry from involvement with the project. The ship is designed in Germany by a firm known as Blohm and Voss, and is a skilful design which allows for modules to be built in various parts of Australia and New Zealand.

Victoria will receive the long-term spin-offs in jobs and the upgrading of skills and technology transfer from Blohm and Voss. I joined the mission last Monday for half a day. I had useful discussions with my counterpart, the Honourable Bob Tizard, New Zealand Minister for Defence, who responded warmly to the Victorian approach. I hope the mission will be successful. We look forward to a return visit by a similar group from New Zealand to show them the upgrading of the Williamstown shipyards, the new productivity and the new industrial agreement that has taken place. We look forward to what will be one of the important contracts reaching into the next century, the frigate contract between Australia and New Zealand.

PURCHASE OF MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION HOUSES

The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-I ask the Minister for Housing and Construction: is it a fact that tenants have been installed in the Ministry of Housing and Construction houses with a promise that they will have the opportunity of purchasing those houses after a three-year period? Is it also true that this period prior to purchase was extended to five years and then, despite the tenants being told they would be able to purchase the houses, an embargo has now been placed on those sales? How does the Minister reconcile this treatment of his tenants with the government's social justice strategy?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-Embargoes are based on the needs of given areas to determine whether it is possible to release housing out of public housing stock. If people wish to purchase houses, they can still avail themselves of the home opportunities scheme.

The Hon. M. T. Tehan-Purchase the houses they are in?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-No, other houses. A need exists in some areas for public housing and the Ministry of Housing and Construction has found it necessary as a matter of policy to curtail such sales. That curtailment is under review constantly and if demand declines that embargo may be modified.

If Mrs Tehan knows of particular instances where she believes undertakings have been entered into for particular tenants and they think those undertakings have not been honoured, I shall investigate them. Such undertakings may have been qualified and the tenants may not have realised there was such a qualification.

PROVISION OF HOSPITAL SERVICES The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Chelsea Province)-Significant improvements have

taken place in the provision of hospital services in Region 8, particularly the provision of beds at the Frankston Hospital and also the establishment of the Monash Medical Centre. Will the Minister for Health inform the House of further developments, in

Sessional Orders 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 613

association with the Monash Medical Centre, particularly in the Moorabbin area, that are to be undertaken?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-The government announced the commencement of a $23 million contract at the Moorabbin Hospital for extensions to the kitchen and the operating theatres, and consideration is being given to the provision of 25 additional beds for day surgery. Consideration will be given to the provision of cancer services.

The Hon. Robert Lawson-What do you mean, "consideration"? That was a promise!

The Hon. D. R. WHITE-In response to Mr Lawson, the government reaffirmed its commitment to ensure that the 25-bed day surgery unit and cancer services would be provided in the life of this Parliament, and that remains a commitment. That did not form part of the contract let today; it forms part of the ongoing works on the Moorabbin campus, which is the first occasion that any significant extensions have been made to the Moorabbin Hospital over the past twenty years, despite many commitments by the previous administration.

It also complements the outstanding Bentleigh Community Health Centre and the services that it provides to a range of people in the community, particularly the elderly in Bentleigh. It supports and enhances the ~ovemment's concept of providing services run for and by the elderly to assist them In avoiding unnecessary use of hospital or nursing home beds.

There could not be a better example of a working community health centre catering for the needs of elderly people in the community than that of the centre at Bendeigh, which is on the same site as the Moorabbin Hospital. That hospital has also provided outstanding service to the community.

We look forward to the further enhancement of the quality of services delivered in that area which will be enabled by the capital works that have commenced today. I only wish the Opposition had the same commitment to the Bentleigh community health centre and to the Moorabbin Hospital.

SESSIONAL ORDERS The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-By

leave, I move: That so much of the Sessional Orders as requires that no new business be taken after 10 p.m. and that

General Business shall take precedence of Government Business on Wednesdays be suspended until the end of December 1988 and that until the end of December 1988, unless otherwise ordered by the House, new business may be taken at any hour and Government Business shall take precedence of all other business.

I give the usual assurances that I give at this time of the year that, in moving the motion and hoping that it will be accepted, although there is no provision in the motion for time for Opposition business or General Business on Wednesday, it is understood that the usual agreement will hold and 2 hours will be devoted to General Business.

Facing the week we are, I will do my best to consult with the Leaders of the other parties, and in fact all honourable members, to ensure that business runs as smoothly as possible and that honourable members will have as much sleep as possible between now and the end of the sessional period.


614 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Government Major Projects Unit

GOVERNMENT MAJOR PROJECTS UNIT The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-By

leave, I move: That there be laid before this House a copy of the report of the Victorian Government Major Projects

Unit for the year 1987-88.


The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources) presented the report in compliance with the foregoing order.

It was ordered that the report be laid on the table.

On the motion of the Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province), it was ordered that the report be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

CUSTODIAN'S REPORT-BLF The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-By

leave, I move: That there be laid before this House a copy of report No. 5 dated 30 November 1988 given to Mr

President, pursuant to section 7 A of the BLF (De-recognition) Act 1985, by the Custodian appointed under section 7 (1) of that Act.


The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources) presented the report in compliance with the foregoing order.



OBSTETRIC AND PAEDIATRIC MORTALITY AND MORBIDITY The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-By leave, I move: That there be laid before this House a copy of the report of the Consultative Council on Obstetric and

Paediatric Mortality and Morbidity for the year 1986.


The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health) presented the report in compliance with the foregoing order.


On the motion of the Hon. Haddon Storey, for the Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the report be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.


laid on the table by the Clerk: Council of Adult Education-Report and statement of accounts for the year 1987-88.

Dried Fruits Board-Report and statement of accounts for the year 1987.

---

Papers 6 December 1988 COUNCIL

Ethnic Affairs Commission-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88.

Geelong Regional Commission-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88.

Harness Racing Board-Report, accounts and balance sheets for the year 1987-88.

Latrobe Regional Commission-Report and statement of accounts for the year 1987-88.

Liquor Licensing Commission-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88.

Nursing Council-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88.

Pharmacy Board-Report and statement of accounts for the year 1987.

615

Planning and Environment Act 1987-Notices of approval of the following amendments to planning schemes:

Altona Planning Scheme-Amendment L 1.

Bendigo Planning Scheme-Amendment Ll.

Chiltern Planning Scheme-Amendment L5.

Frankston Planning Scheme-Amendment L3.

Geelong Regional Planning Scheme-Amendments RI, R5 Part 1 and R 16.

Gordon Planning Scheme-Amendment Lt.

Hampden Planning Scheme-Amendments Ll and L3.

Horsham Planning Scheme-Amendment L4.

Kilmore Planning Scheme-Amendment L 7.

Korumburra Planning Scheme-Amendment L4.

Lillydale Planning Scheme-Amendments L4 and L23A.

Metropolitan Region Planning Schemes-Amendments R14, R19, R20, RLl Part 5, RL8, RLll Part 3, RLI9, RL29 Part 2,RL39, RL50and RL57.

Mildura (City) Planning Scheme-Amendment L4.

Mildura (Shire) Planning Scheme-Amendment LlD.

Moe Planning Scheme-Amendment L5.

Narracan Planning Scheme-Amendment L 7.

Pakenham Planning Scheme-Amendment L2. Rochester Planning Scheme-Amendment L2.

Rosedale Planning Scheme-Amendment L14.

Stawell (Town) Planning Scheme-Amendment L2.

Tambo Planning Scheme-Amendment L14.

Traralgon (City) Planning Scheme-Amendments L2 and L3.

Warrnambool (City) Planning Scheme-Amendment L5.

Wodonga Development Areas Planning Scheme-Amendment Lt.

Radiation Advisory Committee-Report for the year ended 31 October 1988.

Rural Water Commission-

Minister's report of failure of commission to submit an annual report to him and the reasons therefor.

Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88.

Small Business Development Corporation-Report, balance sheet and statements of account for the year 1987-88.

Statutory Rules under the following Acts of Parliament:

Building Control Act 1981-No. 426.

Construction Industry Long Service Leave Act 1983-No. 425.

616 COUNCIL 6 December 1988

Drugs, Poisons and Controlled Substances Act 1981-No. 424.

Public Service Act 1974-PSD Nos 56, 57 and 58.

Racing Act 1958-No. 403.

Personal Explanation

Victorian Relief Committee-Minister's report of failure of committee to submit an annual report to him by 30 September 1988 and the granting of an extension of time to 30 December 1988 and the reasons therefor.

On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the papers tabled by the Clerk, with the exception of amendments to planning schemes and statutory rules, be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs) (By leave)-I desire to make a

personal explanation. During the debate on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting on 24 November, in reply to a query by Mr Miles, I said that a poll of physiotherapy students at the Lincoln Institute of Health Sciences campus was taken, resulting in 9: 1 voting for physiotherapy courses to remain at La Trobe University.

That statement was not correct, although I certainly believed it to be correct at the time. I misunderstood the advice given to me by an officer of my department. In fact, the vote was taken by the executive of the Lincoln Student Association. The result was 9: 1, but I did want the record to be corrected.

The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-Which way did the 9: 1 vote go?

The Hon. C. J. HOGG-It was 9:1 in favour of retaining the courses at La Trobe University. However, it was not a poll of physiotherapy students but a vote taken by the executive of the Lincoln Student Association.

TRUSTEE COMPANIES (AMENDMENT) BILL For the Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources),

the Hon. D. R. White (Minister for Health)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time.

OBJECTS OF THE BILL

The Trustee Companies (Amendment) Bill will operate to amend the Trustee Companies Act 1984. That Act regulates the trustee companies industry in this State.

The Trustee Companies Act 1984 was an amendment and re-enactment of the Trustee Companies Act 1958 following a review of the original Act as a result of the collapse of the Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd. The 1984 Act saw substantial changes to the prudential requirements in the legislation. The government has now had an opportunity of assessing how those amendments made in 1984 have operated in practice. This Bill seeks to amend some of the prudential requirements to take into account changes in the industry which were not foreseen in 1984, and to make various other amendments consequent upon changes in the industry. I should add that the Bill was passed by the Legislative Assembly earlier this year but lapsed when Parliament was prorogued.

Trustee Companies (Amendment) Bill 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 617

CHANGES IN THE INDUSTRY One of the most dramatic changes to occur in the industry has been the growth of

common funds. These are funds in which members of the public can invest deposits, like cash management funds. In December 1984 moneys on deposit in common funds administered by Victorian trustee companies amounted to about $296 million. In December 1987 these funds had reached $2572 million and have continued to grow at a substantial rate since that time. On the other hand, the value of the trust estates administered has remained relatively stable. In December 1984 some $1096 million of estates were administered by Victorian trustee companies, and by December 1987 that figure had fallen to $1041 million. Some of that fall is attributable to the decrease in value of investments held in some estates, because of the share market collapse.

PROPOSED NEW ARRANGEMENTS

The Bill before this House amends the Trustee Companies Act to take into account the changes which have occurred in the industry. The Bill makes the following amendments:

Contributions to Reserve Fund-The requirement to contribute to the reserve fund established by the Act has been altered. This alteration will allow for differing rates of contribution to the reserve fund by trust estates and the various types of common funds administered by a trustee company.

It is intended that, for those trustee-administered common funds in which a deposit qualifies as an authorised trustee investment under section 4 (1) of the Trustee Act 1958, there will be a lower prescribed contribution rate. This amendment acknowledges the unforeseen and significant growth in the value of common funds administered by trustee companies and the relative security of the types of investment to which those funds are restricted.

Subordinate Loans-Coupled with this amendment is a change to the prohibition on external borrowing by trustee companies, to allow them to use a subordinated loan from their parent company for the purpose of meeting the reserve fund requirements. A subordinated loan is a loan under which the lender agrees that in the event of the borrower's liquidation, repayment of the loan will be deferred until all other creditors of the company have been satisfied. Such loans are generally regarded by the commercial world as being equivalent to equity capital but are a more flexible method of financing. This amendment provides a degree of flexibility for trustee companies when raising money to meet the reserve fund requirement, yet does not disadvantage beneficiaries of estates administered by the trustee company, or its external creditors.

Trust Estate Investment-An additional amendment will see a degree of flexibility for trustee companies when administering estates. The Bill relaxes the prohibition against an estate's money being invested in a company related to the trustee company, so that regulations can prescribe appropriate circumstances in which such an investment may be made. This amendment acknowledges that in many cases companies related to authorised trustee companies may themselves provide good investments for the estates under the control ofa trustee company.

Discretion to Impose Conditions on New Entrants-There are, are present, eleven authorised trustee companies, and a number of inquiries have been received from other interested parties concerning entry into the industry. This Bill provides the Attorney-General with a greater degree of flexibility when approving new entrants into the industry by enabling the imposition of conditions on the authorisation. This will have the advantage of widening the opportunity for new entrants to the industry, yet at the same time ensuring that adequate safeguards can be imposed so that those dealing with such new entrants are adequately protected.

618 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Pay-roll Tax (Amendment) Bill

Clarification of Right to Commission-A trustee company's right to charge commission based on the gross value of an estate, at the time of its distribution, has been clarified. Without this amendment trustee companies whose administration of an estate leads to a significant increase in the capital value of an estate would be deprived of the ability to charge a commission based on the value of the estate at the date of its distribution. In many cases this would see them performing their duties at a loss.

Other Amendments-A small number of drafting changes are also e~ected by the Bill.

CONCLUSION

Industry representatives have advised the government that they are working towards a proposal for uniform prudential requirements in all States. The rationalisation of the regulation of trustee companies throughout Australia is a goal the government supports. Until more significant progress has been made towards that goal, these amendments are essential to ensure that the prudential requirements upon the industry do not unduly stifle its activities in the State.


On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

PAY-ROLL TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL The House went into Committee for the further consideration of this Bill.

Discussion was resumed of clause 4.

The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-The clause concerns the Victorian Education Foundation Pty Ltd having supplied to it a list of names and addresses to enable it to follow up employers who are not contributing to the foundation.

The Liberal Party is concerned that this should not be the only way of handling the issue. The issue should be handled the opposite way; employers should be ~ven the opportunity of deciding whether they want their names and addresses suppbed to the Victorian Education Foundation.

The Liberal Party pointed out to the Treasurer that its proposal was a workable option and that it could not support the clause in its present form because it would take away from employers the right to choose whether they were contacted by the Victorian Education Foundation.

The Liberal Party acknowledges the need to upgrade skills. That is an important issue being handled by the Victorian Education Foundation, but it cannot support the clause in its present form.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province )-Clause 4 goes to the very basis of the Victorian Education Foundation. When the foundation was announced as an initiative in the publication Victoria The Next Decade it was described as a joint venture between the government and private enterprise.

The foundation had three specific purposes; firstly, to increase post-secondary courses, particularly where they were seen to be relevant to the government's economic

Pay-roll Tax (Amendment) Bill 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 619

strategy; secondly, to improve the quality of courses which are currently available; and, thirdly, to encourage the export of educational services.

At the same time it was announced that the project was to be funded by payroll tax collections. Employers were able to elect to nominate up to 0-01 per cent of their payroll tax to be directed towards the Victorian Education Foundation. That scheme came into being on 1 November last year, and it is of interest that clause 12 of the Bill standardises the contribution to a-I per cent. In other words, it removes the words HUp to".

The scheme has not been particularly successful. We are told that only about 800 payroll taxpayers in the State-and there are 17 000 of them-have elected to have funds directed to the Victorian Education Foundation; that is only about 5 per cent.

I am told there are two specific problems. The first is that at this stage there is still at least a question mark over whether funds dedicated to the Victorian Education Foundation are tax deductible. The second problem is more basic-namely, the promotion of the scheme. It is clear that many employers are simply not aware that the scheme exists. The facts are that the Victorian Education Foundation cannot approach employers about their contributions simply because it does not know which employers are involved.

Clause 4 seeks to make it possible for the authorities to release that information. I do not believe it is all that big a deal; I do not have any fundamental objection to the release of that information, provided it is restricted to the elementary level of the names of the companies and the criteria "Yes" or HNo". However, I have to concede that many taxpayers have registered concern and have said that they do not wish to be identified or canvassed on this issue, and that is fair enough. That view should be respected, however innocuous the information may appear on the surface.

A simple solution is available to the government. The Commissioner of Pay-roll Tax could ask taxpayers whether they are prepared to have the information released. That seems to me to be a simple concept, but I put it to the Committee that there is an even more simple solution: that is, the government itself could make the allocation. After all, the government receives the payroll tax. The government is saying it is required now to forgo some of its tax revenue, and we are told that in the year 1987-88 we can expect the figure to be something like $15 million a year.

Therefore, why not take the guesswork out of it? Why not say, "We will allocate a specific dollar value to the Victorian Education Foundation or make it a percentage of payroll tax collected"? That would clarify the position for everybody. It would say to the Victorian Education Foundation, "This is what you will receive this year and what you can plan on receiving the following year and the year after that". It would enable the government to budget for the revenue received in payroll tax and all the guesswork would be taken out of the situation.

It seems to me that, under clause 4, the government is seeking a complicated way of achieving something that is relatively simple. The solution in place of clause 4 is for the government to make the allocation. It was the government's initiative to establish the Victorian Education Foundation, so the government should say how it is to be funded and what proportion the allocation is to be. Why should the initiative be left to the employers?

If the Victorian Education Foundation is as important as the government says it is, the government can make the allocation, and it is in those circumstances that the National Party supports Mrs Varty in asking that the Committee vote against the clause.

620 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Pay-roll Tax (Amendment) Bill

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-In light of the comments of honourable members and in anticipation of the resolution of the situation, the Treasurer in another place will give consideration to the argument put forward by Mrs Varty and Mr Hallam when the Bill returns to another place.

The clause was negatived.

Clauses 5 to 10 were agreed to.

Clause 11

The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY (Nunawading Province)-The clause relates to the authorisation of proceedings by the commissioner and the ability then of those against whom proceedings have been brought to challenge them. The clause currently prevents anyone from challenging proceedings, regardless of the manner in which they are brought. In other words, if there is an irregularity in proceedings there is no way under the clause that that fact can be redressed.

I outlined the Liberal Party's position in the second-reading debate. Suffice to say there are good reasons why legal proceedings that are brought should be properly authorised by the commissioner and if they are not effectively and properly authorised, they should not be beyond challenge.

It is most important that there be no presumption on a matter that the statute itself positively requires to be done, so we seek to reserve the right of respondent employers to produce evidence where it appears that the clause imposes an onus on the employer to establish evidence to the contrary.

As I said before, it should be available as a means of redress. A situation should not exist where employers do not have the opportunity of challenging any irregularity in that authorisation. The Opposition opposes the clause.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The changes sought by clause 11 seem relatively simple and innocuous on the surface. In fact, in briefings we have had with taxation officials-briefings for which I am grateful-it was pointed out that what the government really seeks is power to institute proceedings relating to breaches of the Act and tax recoveries directed thereto. However, there is a sting in the tail.

The changes sought relate to sections 23 (3) and 49 (1) of the Pay-roll Tax Act 1971 which state specifically that any action brought in the name of the commissioner is deemed to have been brought on his authority with the proviso "in the absence of evidence to the contrary". They are the precise words now being sought to be excluded. In other words, the action would be deemed to have the commissioner's authority even though it could be established otherwise. That would preclude an argument that would establish that an action would not have the commissioner's authority. That is not on! That is not what we envisage to be British justice.

The government is seeking to change the rules so that, regardless of the validity of the argument before the commissioner being established, that action would be precluded. That is more like a kangaroo court than a court of British justice and is not acceptable to the National Party even though it may aid administration-and I have no doubt that it would. However, it prevents what could well be a valid argument being led in specific circumstances. For that reason, the National Party supports the Opposition.

------- The clause was negatived.

The remaining clauses were agreed to.

Stamps (Further Amendment) Bill 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 621

The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and passed through its remaining stages.

STAMPS (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from November 23) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White

(Minister for Health) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY (Nunawading Province)-The Bill is one of the three Budget Bills relating to State taxes that come before the House each year. The other two Bills relate to payroll tax and land tax. The Opposition does not oppose the Bill for its tax relief measures but it strongly opposes one section relating to the exclusion of privilege against self-incrimination.

The objects of the Bill are: firstly, to exempt from stamp duty certain sales by futures dealers; secondly, to implement the government's Budget proposals for relief from stamp duty for first home buyers; thirdly, to allow insurance companies in certain circumstances to report other than monthly; fourthly, to remove stamp duty from bookmakers' certificates and betting tickets; fifthly, to remove stamp duty on counterparts of instruments; sixthly, to make a number of technical amendments in relation to stamp duties on rental businesses; seventhly, to increase penalties in relation to stamp duty on motor car sales and make other changes; and ei~thly, the matter to which I alluded before, to exclude the privilege against self-incrimInation in an inquiry conducted by the Comptroller of Stamps.

Stamp duty in this State has become a major source of government revenue. It really has become a money tree. The total State tax revenue in the Budget Papers for 1982-83 shows the figure taken in by the government as $2487·8 million. The estimate for the 1988-89 Budget is $4527·9 million, an increase of 82 per cent. As a segment of those tax revenues, stamp duty in 1982-83 was $466·8 million, whereas in 1988-89 it is estimated to be $1442·5 million, an increase of209 per cent.

The duty on property transfers is the area in which the money tree really works. In 1982-83 the government revenue collected was $138·8 million but in 1988-89 it is estimated to be $770 million, an increase of 454·7 per cent. By any estimation that is almost obscene in terms of increases in government revenue and it must be regarded as the rip-off of the year.

The Premier has berated the banks for the profits they have made. I suggest that no bank anywhere in the world over the same period would have made a profit of 454 per cent. Admittedly that is only one segment of the total revenue, but it is nonsense for the Premier to berate the banks when $15 million of the State taxpayers' money has gone down the drain in one Victorian Economic Development Corporation bad investment-in Wallace International Ltd. The situation in the current year will be just as bad, and I wish to allude to figures produced by the Premier in the statement of financial transactions of the Consolidated Fund, July to October 1988.

The same situation applies for the first four months of the year. The figures for total stamp duty, including stamp duty on property transactions, are $60·2 million ahead of budget. Applying that to the full year, the figure would be $180·6 million over budget. The Treasurer would say that there has been a slowdown in property transactions but, like all of his previous assertions relative to Budget projections, the figure I have quoted is more likely to be nearer the truth than the one referred to by him. His figure is a nonsense. It is hypocritical of him to suggest that the government could not give relief to first home buyers by allowing exemptions that would not be hamstrung by the requirements imposed at present.

622 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Stamps (Further Amendment) Bill

The Treasurer would have the community believe the massive increase in stamp duty revenue-particularly property stamp duty-was predominantly due to the increase in turnover. The Liberal Party believes three factors compound the issue. Firstly, the changes in Federal taxation arrangements on negative gearing and capital ~ains tax have meant that investment in property, particularly in the commercial and Industrial sectors, has become more appealing than investment in equities. The top end of the residential market has provided a large amount of real estate turnover. A switch has occurred from equity investment to property investment since the 1987 stock market crash.

Secondly, property values have increased at a rate greater than the consumer price index figures. The CPI increased by 58·9 per cent from 1981-82 to 1986-87. The comprehensive figures I shall quote are from a document prepared by the Real Estate Institute of Victoria and they deal specifically with stamp duty. From 1982 to 1987 the increase in median-priced housing was 88·2 per cent, while the stamp duty increased by 104·5 per cent. The CPI increase was 58·9 per cent while the increase in the takeup of stamp duty was 104·5 per cent.

The increase in the price of a median-priced block of flats was 83 per cent while the stamp duty increased by 131·4 per cent. The purchase price of a median-priced motel rose by 261 per cent but stamp duty increased by 784·6 per cent. The increase in the cost of a median-priced garage was 204·5 per cent but stamp duty increased by 558·6 per cent. The government did nothing about changes in rates because the significant increases in purchase prices for those properties lifted them into a different category, thereby attracting a higher stamp duty rate.

Thirdly, despite the changes introduced by the Treasurer in 1987, which had an impact at lower levels, significantly increased rates of duty were payable and, in some cases, were doubled from 3 per cent to 6 per cent. That created a significant impact on the collection of stamp duty in Victoria.

The Treasurer has consistently underestimated the projected income from stamp duty, as well as from payroll tax and land tax. It was anticipated that stamp duty collections would total approximately $1074 million in 1987-88; $1294 million was collected-an increase of$220 million.

The Hon. R. M. Hallam-Christmas came early.

The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY-It was a bonanza for the Treasurer. The government needs only to hold open the nosebag and the revenues fall into it because of the progressive nature of the tax, which is based on current market values, and because property values are increasing at a rate greater than the inflation rate. That has been due to market forces and tighter monetary controls in Canberra so that the market, to a large extent, has been artificially lifted.

The sitting was suspended at 6.26 p. m. until 8.2 p. m.

The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY -Before the sitting was suspended I referred the House to the massive increases in the amount of stamp duty the government has taken without doing anything about widening the scope of the tax. I now turn to the impact of stamp duty paid on property transfers.

In the 1987-88 Budget the Treasurer restructured the stamp duty paid on land transfers by replacing the eleven steps and stairs rates with a smooth rate scale that had only four marginal rates. On introducing that scheme, at page 14 of Budget Paper No. 4, the Treasurer said:

Most taxpayers, in particular home buyers, will experience lower average duty rates than under the old scale. Taxpayers generally will benefit from the elimination of the disproportionate jumps in the old scale.


On transfer of property, stamp duty is levied on the current market value. In addition, stamp duty is a progressive tax because as the property value increases, so does the stamp duty rate. Because of the huge increases in property values, stamp duty has now become a significant barrier to those people, particularly first home buyers, wishing to purchase homes. It also impacts on people wishing to change from one home to another.

In his Budget speech for this year, the Treasurer said: The main Budget initiative dealt with in the Bill is the provision of stamp duty exemptions for first

home buyers with families.

That statement must be one of the cruellest hoaxes perpetrated by the Treasurer on home buyers. It is estimated that this year some 30 000 people will aspire to purchase homes. Some 23 000 of these will purchase homes at or below $122 000. Fewer than 6000 of these are expected to qualify for the government's first home buyers scheme because of the restrictive qualification criteria the government has placed on the scheme. The qualifications that have been imposed effectively exclude the vast bulk of Victorian families who are seeking to purchase their first homes.

I shall refer the House to the three elements of the test and point out why the government is not giving anything at all. Firstly, the income test is the one currently applying to the Commonwealth first home owners scheme. It is a restrictive and stringent test that is currently being reviewed by the Commonwealth government because of the severe effect it is having on families seeking to qualify for assistance.

Secondly, the property value qualification means that the property purchased must be valued at not more than $100 000 to be eligible for the full exemption. All honourable members will recognise that with the recent increase in property values $100000 does not buy much of a home. The exemption cuts out at $111 000, so there is really not much scope for first home buyers. It might be sufficient in areas that are a long way from Melbourne but it is not ideal for young families seeking homes in the suburbs. Because of the recent rapid increase in property values many families will miss out. It will be difficult for them to purchase homes valued at more than $122 000.

The third and probably the most nonsensical criterion of all is that the family must have at least one child. It is a nonsense for this government to say to a youn$ married couple trying to save a deposit for a home, "Look, if you want to be eligible for exemption from stamp duty so that you can buy your home, you must have at least one child". It is impossible for young married couples to save deposits for homes if they also have to outlay significant sums for newly arrived children. As all honourable members with children will know, the biggest cost is with the first child.

The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-What about ifthe~ give a promise to have a child?

The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY-That might work. The requirement that couples must have at least one child is the most effective exclusion criterion that the government could impose. It appears that the government said, "Too many people will qualify. What can be done to reduce the number? Let's penalise those couples who have at least one child".

Couples who have deferred having a family so that both of them can work to save the deposit to buy their first home are caught in a catch 22 situation. With the cost of housing increasing at such a rapid rate, often faster than the amount of money the couple can earn for the deposit, couples will not be able to purchase their first home. The government has the audacity to tell them that they do not qualify anyway.

The Hon. K. M. Smith-It is all part of the government's social justice strategy: make them rent!


The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY -How can it be part of the government's social justice strategy? There is no social justice in the government's policy when it tells young couples, "You do not qualify for a first home buyers exemption on stamp duty because you do not have a child."

The Hon. K. M. Smith-"Y ou can rent for the next 50 years."

The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY-That is right. Rental properties are becoming more scarce and their cost is increasing, as is the cost of buying a home, so young couples have no hope of buying their first home.

Stamp duty has an impact on residential and commercial investment property, because no matter what the government believes the costs to be, they are increasing.

The Hon. G. R. Crawford-Howard says he is going to let people from overseas buy them all up!

The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY-It has nothing to do with what Mr Howard is doing.

The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Howard is a coward!

The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY -I am addressing the issue of State stamp duty. Honourable members are not discussing what Mr Crawford's colleagues might be doing at the Federal level.

The Hon. G. R. Crawford-It is Howard we are talking about!

The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY -Stamp duty is a wealth tax. It is a deliberate attempt by the government to devise a means of imposing a wealth tax. Stamp duty is levied on the current market value of property; it is not levied on any capital gain or income.

Stamp duty is reflected inevitably in increases in rent, whether for residential or commercial properties. It filters down the line to the consumers, whom the government professes to be concerned about-the people for whom the government claims it is doing marvellous things! In reality, the government is imposing stamp duty and similar charges on the people who can least afford to pay them.

Before the recent election, the Liberal Party made a commitment to assist first home buyers because, as I said, stamp duty represents a significant proportion of the money people must save in addition to the deposit they must have to be able to buy a home. On a house valued at $100 000, stamp duty currently represents an amount of $2200 which must be paid. It is not paid for any service or any benefit; it is a straightforward key money amount. The government is going back to the bad old days when one had to pay all sorts of key money to get into rental properties. Now people must pay key money to get into their own homes; it is called "stamp duty". However, it is, in reality, key money for the privilege of getting into one's home.

The Liberal Party offered first home buyers the prospect of real and genuine relief. Firstly, it undertook to remove the income and dependant restrictions from people who were otherwise eligible. The Liberal Party did not indicate that it would require that a couple have children to be eligible for relief, and there was no intention of imposing the income restriction that currently excludes a large number of families.

Secondly, the Liberal Party undertook to abolish stamp duty to the level ofa house valued at $100 000 and to phase out duty at half the government rate. That measure would effectively have increased the eligible number from 6000 families under the present arrangement to 23 000 families. It would have represented a massive increase in the number of families eligible for assistance.


The Liberal Party recognises the cost to families of buying homes. During the recent State election campaign it made a commitment to reduce stamp duty on homes purchased for owner occupation. The Liberal Party promised to reduce stamp duty by 10 per cent on purchases up to a value of$200 000.

I refer to other minor items contained in the Bill. One relates to the abrogation of the privilege against self-incrimination except in criminal proceedings contained in clause 17 of the Bill. Section 166AA (1) of the Stamps Act 1958 provides that the Comptroller of Stamps may require the production of information, access to books, and people who are the subject of inquiry to answer questions. Under clause 17, the privilege would not be available even where substantial penalties might be imposed in civil proceedings. The Liberal Party is opposed to clause 17 on the basis that it abrogates the privilege against self-incrimination.

The same provision is contained in the Business Franchise Acts (Amendment) Bill which honourable members will be debating later this evening. The Liberal Party will express the same concern at that time. The Liberal Party urges the government to reconsider the clause and to take the necessary action to overcome the difficulty contained in it.

I refer to other minor duties that will be removed by the Bill. The first relates to futures trading. Clause 4 gives effect to the government's commitment to abolish stamp duty on trading by futures brokers who are members of the stock exchange in securities underlying futures contracts. As the law stands at the moment, futures brokers are effectively paying double duty. The provision has the potential to facilitate the development of the futures market in Victoria.

The Bill provides for removal of duty on counterpart documents. The stamping of counterpart documents with a 50 cent stamp removes an administratively cumbersome provision, as anyone who has been involved in stamping of counterpart documents will appreciate. It also provides for the removal of duty on the issue of betting tickets and certain certificates issued to bookmakers, bookmakers' clerks, and others. The Bill further provides for the removal of stamp duty on Victorian registration of motor vehicles previously registered interstate in the same name.

The Stamps (Further Amendment) Bill, which forms part of the three tax Billsrelating to land, payroll, and stamp taxes-is an indictment of the government's lack of social conscience, lack of ability to understand the plight of families trying to buy their own homes, and lack of commitment to protecting future generations in this State.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The Stamps (Further Amendment) Bill implements a number of initiatives announced in the Budget, particularly-as the name suggests-those relating to stamp duty. I suggest to honourable members that to some degree at least this debate has become a formality because the Budget has been passed. The Bill will have four main effects. It will introduce an exemption from stamp duty for first home buyers as part of the government's family package; it will remove the duty on arbitrage; it will abolish duty on certain items; and it will abolish duty on secured debenture issues beyond the limit of $10 million. The Bill contains some relatively minor measures such as the abolition of stamp duty on counterpart documents and an exemption of bookmakers' certificates from the date of proclamation.

The National Party supports the concept of exempting first home buyers from stamp duty. It has supported that initiative consistently since I became a member of this place, and I suggest that that support goes back a lot further than that. That initiative will provide substantial assistance to those who seek the great Australian

Session 1988-21


dream of home ownership. Today, stamp duty represents a major barrier to realising that dream. The Bill reintroduces a scheme that was formerly in vogue in this State but was dismantled by this government. Although the National Party applauds the government for moving in this direction, it also recognises the cheek with which it announced this initiative as bold and new.

In the Budget speech, the Treasurer states: Families qualifying for the Federal Government's First Home Owner's Scheme will be directly assisted

in this Budget.

That is not a statement of fact; it is nothing more than a claim. To some degree it is a real hoax, because the Budget then announces a Qualification:

All first home buyers in this group who have dependent children and who purchase a house costing up to $100 000 will benefit in full.

One must understand what the first home owners scheme offered by the Federal government is about if one is to recognise the full extent of the hoax perpetrated by the State government.

The State scheme provides that a couple with two dependent children on a combined income of$26 000 or less are entitled to a benefit of$5000 over five years but that will be phased out when the combined income reaches $34000. It also provides that a couple with one dependent child on a combined income of $25 000 or less will be entitled to a benefit of $4500 over five years, and this will be phased out when the combined income reaches $33 000. The Qualifications further state that a couple with no dependent children on a combined income of $23 000 or less will be entitled to a $3000 benefit over five years but this will be phased out when the combined income reaches $31 000.

The Commonwealth scheme also provides that an individual on half of that income is entitled to receive the benefit. In other words, a single parent with no dependent children on an income of$11 500 is entitled to that benefit. I emphasise the point that the scheme is misleading-and I suggest deliberately misleading-in stating that families that Qualify under the Federal government first home owners scheme will be directly assisted by the State Budget because, as I have described, that is patently untrue. The Federal initiative extends to parents who have no dependent children.

I take up the point made by Mrs Varty and ask the government how it can possibly introduce criteria for a benefit based upon the couple having their first child. It is cruel to put the cart before the horse. How can a couple starting out in life together hope to save sufficient money to place a deposit on a house when they are being told that they must have their first child before they can Qualify for the scheme? I cannot understand how a government that claims to be concerned about the average Australian can allow those criteria to be applied. They fly in the face of almost everything the government claims to be supporting. This is one area in which the government could show some real compassion because the people it says it is concerned about are those most likely to be disadvantaged by the scheme.

I seek clarification from the Minister on whether a full entitlement to exemption from stamp duty is available to those who Qualify under the scheme irrespective of the extent to whlch an applicant is eligible. The Federal scheme subjects the applicant to a phase-out program. However, it should be made clear in the proposed legislation whether the stamp duty remission is available to those who Qualify irrespective of the level of their eligibility. The Bill does not do that.

The second-reading speech of the Minister suggests that the maximum benefit available under the proposed legislation is $2500 on a house valued at $100 000. The stamp duty applicable to a house of that value is $2200, not $2500. Therefore, the


government is assuming that $300 will be incurred in stamp duty on the mortgage. That is the only way the $2500 could apply. The maximum advantage is available only to a couple with a combined income of less than $34 000 with at least one child, who buy a house with a maximum value of $100 000. Very few Victorians would qualify for the scheme according to those criteria; the government is safe using those criteria. The exciusion criteria are cruel.

The next initiative announced in the proposed legislation is the abolition of stamp duty on arbitrage trading by futures brokers where marketable securities or the rights to them are held for three months or less. The National Party does not object to that initiative. The second-reading speech states that the initiative has been taken to aid Melbourne's position "as a financial and commercial centre". That comment intrigued me because until now neither the Premier nor the Treasurer has been noted for coyness in claims about Melbourne. I wonder why this claim was made. I shall quote a letter I received from the chief economist at the Melbourne stock exchange:

In addition, the current proposed change to stamp duty follows on from the exemption from stamp duty provided by the New South Wales government for registered traders on the Australian options market who execute offsetting transactions in the underlying securities market. The New South Wales government made these changes in June 1987.

That is why the Victorian government has been coy about this initiative. It is not an initiative so much to improve the standards of Melbourne "as a financial and commercial centre" but a response to action taken in New South Wales. Clearly, the New South Wales government has stolen a march on the Victorian government.

Another example of why the initiative is not all that magnanimous and is a small trade is given by the chief economist when he says:

The exchange notes that the exemption shall be restricted to members of the AFFM.

That is the Australian Financial Futures Market Pty Ltd-The AFFM currently has thirteen members. Most have offices in both Melbourne and Sydney, with

over half having their principal officein Sydney.

Here is the rub: As stamp duty is payable on State basis, according to origin of order, some difficulties may arise in

determining the origin of futures-related share transactions in determining liability for stamp duty.

It is almost impossible to tell from where these transactions originated and where the responsibility for stamp duty originally arose. So, this is not a magnanimous gesture of stamp duty relief; rather, it is an acknowledgment of the real world and of the fact that it would be almost impossible to collect the stamp duty in the first place.

The National Party acknowledges that the Bill represents some form of stamp duty relief and therefore supports it. The National Party also supports the abolition of stamp duty on secured debenture issues where an aggregate of$1 0 million is involved. That measure extends the provision of section 137MA of the Stamps Act, which provides exemptions for other forms of wholesale market fundraising.

I was intrigued when I discovered why the threshold of$10 million was introduced. Normally, one would expect the threshold to apply to the bottom end of the range, but in this case it applies to the top end. The National Party will not oppose the measure, but the reasons for it are intriguing. In fact, it is not a threshold. I was informed by the Comptroller of Stamps that all fundraising of that dimension takes place off-shore, so that fundraising of that nature does not occur at State level. In effect, no transactions are being exempted from stamp duty! The Bill provides that people who conducted transactions overseas to avoid stamp duty may now conduct those transactions in Victoria; yet the government will not receive any stamp duty


from them. Although the Minister referred in his second-reading speech to benefits that were forgone, no benefits have been forgone at all. The fourth initiative outlined by the Minister concerns the abolition of stamp duty on counterpart documents and bookmakers' tickets. It is a minor amendment that the National Party will not oppose.

I shall refer to the rates of stamp duty that apply to the transfer of registration and ownership of motor vehicles. New vehicles attract stamp duty at the rate of $5 for each $200 of value or part thereof, whereas used vehicles, for some reason that is not clear, attract stamp duty at the rate of$8 for each $200 of value or part thereof. I ask the Minister to explain the reason for that variance on stamp duty. It is inappropriate because it discriminates against people who trade in the used car market.

All the exemptions that are mentioned in both the second-reading speech and the Budget speech are heralded as brave new initiatives. As I have said, several of them do not involve any reduction in stamp duty at all; their effect is negligible. The central issue is the level of stamp duty that is levied by the government. Page 9 of Budget Document No. 4 states that in 1988-89 the government expects to receive $1442·5 million in stamp duty. That represents an 11·4 per cent increase on the stamp duty that was collected in the previous year. Significantly, it amounts to a 46·8 per cent increase in the amount of stamp duty collected by the government in 1986-87. The government claims incessantly that It has revised the rates of stamp duty and that exemptions have been provided in many cases, yet it is receiving $460 million more this financial year than it received two years ago.

I shall refer to a chart that has been provided to me by the Real Estate Institute of Victoria. It shows the levels of stamp duty that are levied in all the States-and there is an interesting trend. Up to a property value of $140 000, the rates at which the various States levy stamp duty are similar-so one may say the rates are competitive. But when the value of a property exceeds $140 000, Victoria wins handsomely! The level of stamp duty that is levied on a property valued at $1 million is $55000, which is considerably more than is the case elsewhere.

In New South Wales, a property of that value attracts an amount of $40 490 in stamp duty. Victoria levies stamp duty on a property of that value at a rate 35 per cent higher than the State with the next highest duty, and 41 per cent higher than the average for all other States. Yet in both the second-reading speech and the Budget speech the government makes bold claims about the revision it has made in the level of stamp duty. The rates of stamp duty that apply in Victoria are dramatically higher than those that apply in all other States.

Because of that situation the government has gained a windfall of$460 million over the past two years, which has allowed it to fund other initiatives in an irresponsible way. It has turned its back on both the example and the advice of its Federal counterpart on the need for restraint in government expenditure. Instead, there has been a massive expansion of such expenditure in Victoria, and the windfall gained from the amount of stamp duty the government has collected has got it off the hook.

Because of the massive increase in stamp duty, I resent all the government hyperbole and publicity about exemptions. Those claims are absurd; indeed, they are pathetic. The initiatives that the government has announced, of which great play has been made, amount to little. I am tired of the insincere and biased claims made by the government about the level of taxes that is imposed.

Despite what I have said, the Bill is effectively a Budget Bill, and to oppose it would be tantamount to refusing Supply, which cannot occur because the Budget has been passed by Parliament. The National Party will not oppose the Bill, but because I am required to plough through the hyperbole and the biased claims consistently made by

Libraries Bill 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 629

the government, I am very tempted to oppose the Bill so that the government can be brought to account for the claims that it makes.

The National Party will not oppose the Bill.


The Bill was read a second time, and it was ordered that it be committed later this day.

LIBRARIES BILL The debate (adjourned from November 24) on the motion of the Hon. C. J. Hogg

(Minister for Ethnic Affairs) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province )-A vibrant, well-funded and accessible library system should be accepted as being an essential element of any democracy, particularly an Australian democracy. At a time when there is a premium on the flow of information, a vibrant library service is absolutely vital in a most competitive world. At present the library system in Victoria is in serious decay. Library workers are demoralised, and both the library community and the public have no confidence in the commitments given by the government to the library system.

I speak as someone who has been actively involved in library services for 21 years, having recently retired after 18 years as the Chairman of the Glenelg Regional Library Service. People who work in the library system have a commitment to the system that is second to none. They are totally committed to the work they do; often they work in atrocious surroundings; above all, they are forbearing in what they put up with. However, many people working in library services are disillusioned and, even at the highest level, are leaving the service because of that disillusionment.

In November 1986, Mr Ron Eadie, a former conservator and bookbinder at the State Library, spoke scathingly at what was happening to the written heritage of the State. He was concerned that that heritage was crumbling before our eyes. On 11 November 1986, the Age reported Mr Eadie as having said that the library is: ... without doubt one of the worst kept collections of books in the world.

Mr Eadie is a man whose job was conserving the written heritage of the State and he was despairing. Mr Eadie was reported as saying that more than half the books in the La Trobe Library rare book collection needed immediate conservation treatment. Mr Eadie's report detailed the general condition of books and indicated that it was a national disgrace that was fast approaching disastrous proportions.

Mr Eadie estimated that it would take 91 years to repair the Australian rare books collection, 214 years to salvage the European rare books collection, and 6765 years to carry out the necessary repairs to the hundreds of thousands of books on the library's bookshelves. As I stated, it was Mr Eadie's job to preserve the valuable book stock in the State Library, but he despaired because it was crumbling before his eyes; consequently, he resigned from the service.

In February this year the second most senior librarian in the State, Mrs Fran Awcock, also retired. Mrs Awcock was the director of technical services at the State Library and she quit her job that paid, according to reports, $53 000 a year, in protest at what she said was a disturbing neglect of the library by the State government. This despair and frustration arose out of her regret at what was happening to the library system, which formerly had a good reputation, but which, in the words of Mr Eadie, had become one of the worst systems in the country.

630 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Libraries Bill

As I said before, the fact that the library service has deteriorated is no criticism of the people who have to make the system work. I know the State Librarian, Ms Jane La Scala, personally and the State is fortunate to have a person of her capacity within that system. I do not know how long she will put up with it. Any professional who has to preside over a system that is deteriorating to such an extent and who has been fooled around by the government year after year has every right to be frustrated, to resign from the service and to join a service in another State that gives higher priority to the library system.

In 1982 there was an expectation that the government had a commitment to the State library system. The Australian Labor Party made a number of commitments in its policy on library services. Firstly, it criticised the then Liberal government for having said that a new library would be built on the Victoria Market and car park site. The Labor Party rejected that proposal and gave a commitment to build a new library, but was unsure where it would be sited. A number of proposals were put by the government over the years, without result.

In July 1983 Parliament passed a Bill that created the Museum of Victoria, and Mr Hunt-now the President-said at that time that Victoria had the only State museum without a modem building program. Reference is made to the plans for a new State library because of the current proposition to relocate the Museum of Victoria and the expansion of the State Library into the new site. The original plan was to build a State library on the Queen Victoria Hospital site, but that has been abandoned.

A community design competition was held which cost tens of thousands of dollars. Plans were prepared and prizes awarded but subsequently the project was scrapped. The State government has demonstrated an absolute lack of commitment, even after seven years of government, to build a State library. Admittedly, the government made another promise regarding a new State library before the last election, but nothing has occurred since.

It could be argued that money is not available for a new State library, but my colleagues could cite project after project where money has been wasted. Look at the money being wasted by the Victorian Economic Development Corporation where tens of millions of dollars have been put in jeopardy, perhaps even more, but the government cannot find sufficient funding for this project. It is not a tennis centre, I admit, but it is more important to the people of the State to have a decent and workable State library at which books are capable of being preserved. According to reports, books are mouldering away amongst rat and bat droppings and dead bats affixed to the sides of bookcases.

In 1982 the Labor Party also said that the then Liberal government was contributing less than 50 per cent of funding for the library system and that the Labor Party was committed to 50-50 funding of the municipal library service. That was the very clear unequivocal promise to the library system. Today the government contributes only 30 per cent of the cost of running municipal libraries which has meant increasing stress on municipalities to continue to provide the services that they do.

There is no doubt that the community wants improved library services, because they are expanding, whether they are Carringbush, Ballarat, Bendigo or in the Western District. An examination of the costs of library services will show that those services are increasingly cost efficient. The number of books produced or handled by librarians increases each year and, on all the indicators, the service operates efficiently; but the costs are increasing all the time. When one partner to the funding of library services continually reduces its financial support for the system, although the total cost of library services is increased at a rate less than the increase in the consumer price index, the contribution by municipalities must result in a much higher rate of increase.


The community was given solemn hand-on-the-heart promises by the Labor Party before the 1982 election that it would do better than the nasty Liberals and provide 50-50 funding for municipal libraries. Since that period the same trauma has been inflicted on local government as has occurred in other areas where the government is continually reducing its financial commitment. It is currently contributing 30 cents in every $1 of the running costs of municipal libraries. The end result is disappointment, disillusionment and now, quite clearly, despair among the people involved.

People involved with libraries despair of the government because of its warped set of priorities. The government found $150 000 to set up an ethnic language newspaper to espouse the cause of the Australian Labor Party. It wasted millions of dollars on the Victorian Economic Development Corporation, and spent $500 000 putting a carpet on Swanston Street for a garden party. However, when it comes to a service that should be universally recognised as important to the future development of Victoria at a time when information and knowledge is at a premium, the government retracts its commitment to the library service.

The Parliamentary Library operates on a shoestring budget-even half a shoestringwith a small staff that is able to look after the interests of honourable members in a way that is beyond all expectations. The Parliamentary Library in Canberra would have approximately ten officers to Victoria's one, even though the Victorian Parliamentary Library controls more book stock. If there is one place where a library should operate at an efficient level, where the books are looked after, and where there is modem technology, it should be the library of the legislators who are supposed to be up to date with the latest information to produce legislation for the State.

In recent reports, honourable members learned that the Parliamentary Library is finding it difficult to continue to operate in the way honourable members expect. The Auditor-General made criticisms about certain practices, but those criticisms come down to the lack of resources provided to the library. Honourable members are well served by the Parliamentary Library, the staff of which operate under extreme difficulty. When one talks about the redevelopment of Parliament House-which is 120 years overdue-priority must be given to the Library.

The Bill repeals the Libraries Act 1958 and the Library Council of Victoria Act 1965. It establishes the Libraries Board of Victoria and the Council of the State Library of Victoria. The Bill results from a number of reviews into libraries, including the Hancock report and the Geddes report. The Libraries Board of Victoria and the Council of the State Library of Victoria will have direct access to the Minister for the Arts. The sole objective of the council will be to look after the interests and development of the State Library of Victoria. The Libraries Board of Victoria will act as the major adviser and information source to the Minister for the Arts on public libraries, Ministry of Education libraries and government department libraries.

I shall now deal with the issue of who represents whom in that scenario, and I shall read to the House an extract from a letter from the Glenelg Regional Library Service with which, as I said earlier, I was associated. The letter from Mrs Beryl Tapper, the regional librarian, lists some concerns about the Bill, which are:

(i) That the State Library is no longer bound to continue its external services to the public library network. This was previously the backbone of the inter-library loan system and for which there were no charges levied.

Perhaps during the Committee stage of the debate the Minister will address herself to the relationship between the State and public library networks. The letter continues:

(ii) The source of funding for the libraries board is not spelt out: the fear is that it will be channelled from the special development fund.


(iii) The Bill contains no provision for a specific body, such as the now disbanded Power committee, to advise the Minister on funding for public libraries. Such a body, if it is formed, should allow for nonmetropolitan representation.

(iv) There is no provision for consultancy services to the public library network. This was previously the role of the Library Council of Victoria and one which will be missed. The cost of consultancy for staff training and upgrading of skills, particularly in the management area, is of great concern to library managers manipulating reduced budgets.

(v) The Bill does not define "public library" or "free library".

During the Committee stage of the debate, I shall propose an amendment to ensure that there is municipal representation, but I shall go into the details of that later.

If one examines the development of the State Library of Victoria, one finds that the government's pre-election commitment of 1982 is now an extremely sorry one. There is such despair in the system that, although the Library Council of Victoria wants a new library, it is so desperate for anything that it will accept second best, which is the government's proposal to redevelop the existing library in Swanston Street and expand it into the area formerly occupied by the museum.

Like other honourable members in this Chamber, I used to study under the great dome of the State Library, and it would have been sad for students to lose that feature. There is something about the reading room that cannot be matched anywhere in the world. It is suggested that the dome is based on the architecture of the Congress building, and there are some pale imitations of it elsewhere around the world. It would have been a loss to have had the library moved from the building. However, magnificent as it looks, it is a terrible facility to administer. I can recall trying to find a particular book in the many stacks of books around the library.

The staff are working many hours of unpaid overtime, and it is no wonder that the library has suffered from industrial disputation. Almost by definition, library professionals are so tied up with their jobs that the thought of going on strike or enforcing work-to-rule bans would normally be unheard of. However, so great has been the frustration that such action has occurred.

Articles in newspapers have referr~d to masses of material that librarians are unable to process. An article in the Herald of21 January 1988 includes a photograph showing books in stacks, periodical material unsorted and index systems unprocessed because the staff are not available to undertake those duties. The article in the Herald states that there are 40 vacancies on the staff at the State Library of Victoria but that the library is unable to recruit staff to fill the positions. The article states:

Metre-high stacks of irreplaceable manuscripts, newspapers and drawings are a common sight in the back rooms of the State Library.

Hundreds of reference books are gradually deteriorating from the effects of dust and moisture ... One former senior staff member once even suggested that the library should be closed for a year to let the staff catch up on the backlog.

It is no wonder that the professionals who work in the system and love the work they do are becoming frustrated by having to work under these conditions knowing full well that the books are disintegrating almost before their eyes. That causes anguish, frustration and disillusionment with the government.

I understand from pre-election discussions that the technical services area is to be shifted temporarily out of that area for redevelopment. Before that can happen, the Minister responsible for major projects must provide a $125 million museum on the south bank of the Yarra. I am unsure that that will eventuate.

The Hon. E. H. Walker-In four years.


The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-Where does that leave the library in that four years?

The Hon. E. H. Walker-The library is a separate project.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-The library will expand into the museum space. If a new museum is not built, the library will stay where it is unless interim plans are drawn up, but in the meantime the bats and the rats get at the books. The priceless manuscripts of early Australian history will disappear.

The government made a promise seven years ago which it has not delivered. It has wasted tens of millions of dollars on "funny money" projects around the State. The priorities of the government are unreal. No-one believes the government; it has no credibility.

The Hon. Jean McLean interjected.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-Mrs McLean, by interjection, says, "You're wron~" or something polite like that. No doubt she will stoutly defend the government on thIS issue, but to do so she will be defending the indefensible because the Minister responsible for major projects said that there will not be a new library for four years.

The Hon. G. A. Sgro-Why didn't you fix those before?

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-They would have been fixed by now, but a new site has been proposed. The government, when in opposition seven years ago said that it would build a new museum, yet today the Minister has said that the museum will not be ready for four years. It will be eleven years before a new library is established and then a further five years will be required to have it up and running. Will the Minister responsible for major projects tell the House how it will happen?

The Hon. E. H. Walker interjected.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-I suggest that the Minister read my speeches before he criticises the government of the day on a number of these issues which I made from the government side of the House.

The government has no credibility. If the project to develop the museum space for a library and to refurbish the area comes to fruItion, everyone will be delighted. It is second best, but do we believe the government? Will it carry out that task? The government has been talking about it for seven years. It has cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars for plans that have now been torn up because the sites proposed continually change. How fair dinkum is the government in providing a new State library? What are the future library fundin~ arrangements? In 1982 the government promIsed that it would be a 50-50 fundIng arrangement but it is now a 30-70 arrangement.

Many rural libraries are facing the prospect of withdrawing from the regional library system which has been built up over 25 years. It is a subsidised library service available to 99 per cent of Victorians, and in many small country towns it is the only government service they see. The library bookmobile comes into the town and provides that service. Many rural Victorians do not see any other government services, yet that library service is in jeopardy because of the government continually withdrawing its efforts to the system.

Whether the Bill achieves any improvement in the library system in Victoria remains to be seen. The Opposition supports the Bill with a foreshadowed amendment. Will the government commit itself to a number of the issues I have raised? We have a-' library public out there that does not believe the government. We would like to believe the government because we are that type of people.


The Opposition supports the Bill in the desperate hope that the government will do something positive for the libraries in this State.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province)-The National Party supports the provisions of the Bill with one or two exceptions, particularly clause 9 to which Mr Chamberlain referred. It is necessary that representatives of municipalities in metropolitan and country areas of Victoria be nominated by the Municipal Association of Victoria or a similar body. That is a reasonable suggestion because they are proper functioning organisations and representatives should be appointed and cognisance taken of their recommendations.

The National Party supports the need for a good library service in Victoria. There are considerable advantages to the community of having a good library service, not only for the well-being generally of the members of the community, but also for the benefit of some of the older members of the community who find reading relaxing and something which adds to the quality of their life. It is also a necessary part of the education system. With the development of new forms of education, particularly with the proposed introduction of the Victorian certificate of education in 1990, the requirements and need for a library at both the school and community level will be greatly increased.

Without proper library services and access to the wide range of research material, documents and books that will give students proper information on the subjects which they are studying, we will have a less efficient introduction of the new VCE. The philosophy of the proposed legislation will not be capable of achievement because much depends on the research ability of the students and the common assessment tasks they will be asked to undertake require access to reliable information.

It is clear that the library services provided in the community will be part of a necessary resource change. I recognise that every school will have and require an adequate library service, and I recognise that the resources required for the new VCE will not only be in written form but also in electronic form, and there must be access to practical experience. The library services will provide part of that resource material.

The Bill repeals two Acts of Parliament and replaces them with a single Act. It changes the composition of the library services under which they operate at present. By changing the Act, will our library services be improved? That is the point Mr Chamberlain dealt with and it is one that concerns the National Party. It is fine to change the name, to have discussion papers, to have a series of new buzz words and a range of new and attractive package schemes, or social strategies, but does it make any difference in the final analysis?

In the Minister's second-reading speech, she mentioned that the 1988-89 Appropriation Bill provided for an increase in funding from $17·8 million in the last financial year to $19·3 million in the current year, which was an increase of 8·4 per cent. Considering the fact to which my colleague Mr Chamberlain referred-that the State Library of Victoria has been starved of funds for many years and has suffered a substantial reduction in allocations, and that subsidies to municipal libraries throughout the State were required to provide some modicum of relief to the State library system-that does not appear to be a substantial increase. It is just above the inflation rate. The increase will in no way bring back relativity to the allocations that were made in previous years.

I understand the need for financial restraint but I also understand that documents, books and important papers in the control of the State Library and in other archives are in poor condition and are deteriorating. Once those documents, books and important papers are lost, they are gone for ever. In many places important documents,


particularly newspapers and other items of historical value, are being kept by the goodwill of voluntary organisations, and those documents are in a similar condition.

In this bicentennial year, a substantial interest has been developed in the history of the trials and tribulations of the people who settled this country and their experiences that have helped to make this nation great. Ifwe cannot have access to these important historical documents this wonderful legacy we have built up will be lost. A central fund was set up to preserve those documents and was worthily funded by the Federal government. An enormous amount of material appears to have been preserved in this manner, but that is not by any means all the material, because funding for its preservation was not adequate for everything.

We face greater problems preserving these documents than was the case 50 or 100 years ago because of atmospheric pollution and the infiltration of acidic emissions from motor cars and other sources. Much of the paper is not of the quality of 50 or 100 years ago, despite the technological advancement that has been made. The government claims an 8·4 per cent increase in library fundin$ is significant, but that will fall far short of the needs of the community and the hIgh hopes of Governor La Trobe in 1854 and ofMr Justice, later Sir Redmond Barry, a year or so later, for the preservation of libraries and important documents in this State.

In 1854 those people got their priorities right: they were prepared to care for those things of value and to develop the community. Currently, I do not believe we are prepared to do the same. I wonder whether the changes being proposed will improve libraries.

The Bill provides for the establishment of the Libraries Board of Victoria and the Council of the State Library of Victoria. One objective of the Libraries Board of Victoria is: ... to provide advice and information to the Minister ...

and one of its functions is: ... to make recommendations to the Minister on the allocation of funds made available for promotion and advancement of co-operation between libraries and information organisations ...

The board is little more than an advisory and gee-ing up organisation to promote and encourage research, but it must go back to the Minister because that is where it obtains its funds; it is the Minister who controls it.

A similar situation applies to the Council of the State Library of Victoria because clause 21 provides:

In performing its functions and exercising its powers under this Act, the Council is subject to the general direction and control of the Minister.

The Bill places the State Library of Victoria under the direct control of the Minister but with the mitigating circumstances that the council and the board will be appointed to advise the Minister. To what extent will they be able to initiate matters? Will they have to wait for a reference from the Minister? I believe they will have opportunity of using their initiative and doing things that will improve library services and public knowledge, and promote the general use of libraries. The fact remains that the Minister will be in control; he will be the supremo, and the responsibility will rest squarely on his shoulders as to whether the library service is effective.

The Bill provides for a maximum term of nine consecutive years for members of the board and members of the council. At the end of that time, a period of three years or more must elapse before that person is eligible to be reappointed to the board ot' the council. That is an interesting proposal. Although some people may remain too long on boards-all honourable members would know of such persons in their


electorates; perhaps some would wish some honourable members would get the message and retire-nevertheless, it may be that, after a period of nine years, a person has just begun to hit his or her straps and to be able to give the benefit of his or her accumulated experience to the board or the council. Why should such a provision be included in the Bill? It may be wise that a person has a limited term, but the terms and the method of appointment could allow for change. The Bill forces change after a period of nine years regardless of whether it is necessary or is to the benefit of the board or the council.

It is clear from the debate and from reports I have heard of debate in other places that the key issue will be that of funding. Over a considerable period the libraries of Victoria have been in partnership with municipalities and they have entered into an arrangement with the government. Without that partnership the proud claims made in the Minister's second-reading speech of a 99·6 per cent penetration of library services in Victoria would not have been achieved. I suspect that the 0·4 per cent of non-penetration must be those who live in such places as Bendoc and Patchewollock.

The Hon. R. A. Best-Excuse me, they are my areas!

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-In that case, Mr Best, I am sure it will not be long before those places do have library services. However, 0·4 per cent of persons do not have services provided. That service depends heavily on the ability of municipalities throughout Victoria to continue subsidising the service from their meagre funds.

In many cases, what was begun years ago as a partnership on a $2-for-$1 basis has now become a situation where the State government contribution has either remained static in money terms or has not increased in real terms. Effectively the State government contribution has been eroded by the ravages of inflation. For the library services just to retain the level of expenditure that they had in previous years, additional money would need to be provided by the municipalIties. Further than that, the books themselves are becoming increasingly expensive.

The range of services demanded of a modern library is becoming more extensive and expensive. There is almost a continuing demand for the installation of a proper computer-controlled library service in Victoria, the computers for which would be very expensive, as would the programming. I submit that the libraries of Victoria must rely increasingly on the goodwill of municipalities to provide the necessary improvements, let alone the preserving of old books, papers and manuscripts to which I have already referred.

Although the Bill changes thin~s around, unless a real effort is made by this and succeeding governments the positIon of libraries and the services they prOVIde, which the community wants, will not improve. As I said, there will be more buzz words, but not much more than that.

The Bill also provides what I believe to be a sensible and relatively simple mechanism for passing over a property or building either to a municipality, which is preferable, or to the government in the case where a mechanics institute or a library-this generally refers to country towns, but I suppose there are a few in the metropolitan area as well-no longer has trustees acting on its behalf. The trustees may have died or have left the district. I trust that such a property would generally go to the municipality, because there have been some very fine developments using old buildings and old facilities for the benefit of the community; objectives that I am sure would have been applauded by those who originally established mechanics institutes and so on in the last century.

It is also worth reflecting on what mechanics institutes were originally set up to do. They were established to bring better education and greater knowledge to the ordinary


person in the community. I suppose that is why they were called mechanics institutes. Perhaps they were the forerunners of the Council of Adult Education and technical and further education systems that now exist. It was the desire of our community some 50 or 100 years ago to become better informed in order to cope with what they considered would be the problems that modem life would bring forward.

The National Party does not object to the Bill. It will see it through, although it does have a number of concerns about certain provisions. It may be that the Minister can answer those concerns, but at least it is proposed legislation introduced by the government to which the National Party has no strong objection. It is reasonable for it to pass. The National Party will monitor with considerable interest the manner in which the measure operates.

As I have said, we will support the amendments that I understand will in due course be proposed by Mr Chamberlain, which will alter clause 9 so that municipal representatives can be nominated. The National Party supports the Municipal Association of Victoria. Indeed, I refer to the correspondence that members of the National Party have received from the association seeking their support in this matter, and the National Party will carry through the association's desire on that issue.

I should like to mention one last point. I notice that in the regulation-making powers contained in clause 53, the disallowance provision, which it has become a part of the normal practice of the House to place in proposed legislation, does not appear.

The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-We will soon fix that up.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-It has become a very good custom in this State to ensure that any regulations that are made under legislation-and regulations are a most important part of the facilitating process for legislation-should also be subject to the same opportunities for Parliamentary scrutiny as the principal Act.

The National Party supports the Bill, but most particularly it supports the need of the Victorian community to have access to expanding and better library services for all the reasons that I have stated. In addition, we support the need to make available adequate funds so that irreplaceable historical records-they cannot be obtained next year or the year after that, and they cannot be fixed up if they are lost-are not lost.

The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON (Higinbotham Province)-Libraries are the repositories of civilisation and always have been. They reflect the nature of the civilisations they serve and their state of learning.

Libraries in general do not censor material they receive. but keep it for reference, and it is up to the reader, or the user of the library, to decide what is ~ood in the librClry and what is not. This is particularly true of the modem State LIbrary of Victoria because, under this measure and under the legislation it is displacing, the publishers of all material in Victoria are obliged to send along to the library one good coPY of their book, journal, newspaper, tape, film, or whatever it happens to be. All thIS is taken in by the State Library without censorship of any kind. The library merely maintains these copies, catalogues them, and looks after them as best it can with its limited funds, and makes them available for the user.

I suppose one could say that the modem libraries are direct descendants of the medieval libraries. I went to our treasure trove, our own Parliamentary Library, and obtained a book, the reading of which I recommend to anyone interested in libraries. The book entitled Name of the Rose was written by Umberto Eco and it has enjoyed great popularity over recent years. In fact this book was featured in the morning bookssection on 3AR: I heard debates about it on the radio as well. The principal part is a description of a medieval monastery and library. It was written by an Italian, U mberto


Eco, and it relates to a monastery that had a scriptorium. The library was, no doubt, imaginary, but the man who wrote it was a scholar, a Latinist, and a lover of books. I believe he gave a good and accurate description of what a big library would have looked like in those days.

The interesting part is that a large number of the books would have been nonsense because they reflected obsolete geography, science and history, but the library itself would have been of immense value; however it was burnt down during the course of the narrative and the entire library and its collection were lost.

The point I make is that in many old libraries many of the books that have survived to this day kept learning alive within ignorant communities and preserved the learning of the day.

I believe the modem library is a lineal descendant of those ancient libraries. As I said before, our libraries reflect our civilisation and our state of learning. Our own collection takes in everything that is printed in Victoria as well as material that is obtained from elsewhere. However, what has happened is that the State Library has a severe case of indigestion. The staff finds it very difficult to look after, catalogue, and conserve this great collection.

Some of the older books in the library would cost about $500 or more each merely to bind and to conserve, so I have some sympathy with the government because it is faced with a great dilemma.

The dilemma is partly of our own making because, over recent years, we have not paid much attention to these civilised pursuits. Instead we have spent our money on a National Tennis Centre, on a new stand for the Melbourne Cricket Ground, and on all sorts of similar things. We will find the money for the Olympic Games bid but can we find money for a decent library service? It is a difficult dilemma because I believe the State and municipal libraries are far more important than the Olympic Games bid.

Ifwe are to spend money, let us spend it on our libraries. We could manage without a National Tennis Centre but I doubt that, as a civilisation and as a people who need spiritual food, we could manage without libraries.

Municipal libraries are very lively places. They are always buzzing with activity. If one analyses the number of people who attend libraries compared with the number of people who go to the various football matches or sporting fixtures, one finds that the libraries attract far and away more people than any sporting functions.

Our priorities are terribly wrong when we squander money on sports and all sorts of peripheral matters whereas the money should be spent feeding the spirit of the nation. Karl Marx, who wrote Das Kapital and transformed the history of the twentieth century, used to patronise the British library in London. He sat at a certain table in the library and for many years wrote there consistently. At the end of that time he published many books that formed the bible of the communist movement. They transformed modem society, for better or worse. This could be one argument used by the conservatives for doing away with libraries! But, on the whole, the advantages of libraries outweigh the disadvantages.

George Bernard Shaw was once asked by a young man what he had to do to become an author. George Bernard Shaw replied that he should go along to the library every day. He said, "Don't worry about supporting your wife or children, just write for ten years or so and then throw it all away and start again; perhaps after that length of time you might become a good writer." George Bernard Shaw was a supporter of libraries.


I am pleased to hear the Minister say that the science museum will be built in four years. That is excellent news because the museum is also in desperate straits. There is no chance of conserving its collection at present because most of it is down in the depressing dungeons underneath. There is no money for conservation and it has the same problem as the library-no money and no space. If the museum can be moved to the south bank of the Yarra River into a proper building, that would be a first step. However, in the interim our State Library will deteriorate even further.

According to the Age of 5 February every Australian State except Victoria will rehouse its State libraries in modem accommodation. The State Library of New South Wales is now moving its main facilities into a new $40 million extension of its midtwentieth'century building. When I was in Brisbane with an all-party Parliamentary committee the Library of the Brisbane Parliament was inspected. It was superb. Conservators were hard at work in the Parliamentary building, and the bookbinders, who had a workshop of their own, were busy binding books and turnin~ out magnificent calf-bound volumes of the records of the Queensland library. In VIctoria row after row of priceless volumes are crumbling away to dust.

The people who come after us will hold us very much to account if we do not save our heritage. Victoria is suffering from galloping amnesia-its memory cells are deteriorating rapidly and, even though the Minister is making an effort to rehouse the museum, it seems that it might be too late to save the most valuable records stored away in our State Library.

The Bill to be passed tonight is of some value, I suppose. It does tackle the problem of the organisation of the State Library and libraries in general, but a tremendous physical effort by the government and by all people of Victoria is needed to save heritage which is withering away. Ifwe do not save our heritage we will deserve grave censure indeed.

The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-I endorse the remarks of Mr Lawson about the civilising effect that libraries have in the State, and the lifeblood of civilisation that Mr Lawson suggested libraries have carried on since the advent of printing. That is important to any group of people wanting to promote a civilised influence in a community.

Libraries are the most vital link with the past and the most vital intellectual facility that people can bring to bear when trying to civilise a State or a community. Victoria has a first-class, in fact a world famous library which, of recent decades, unfortunately throu~ neglect, has fallen into disrepair. Similarly, expensive regional municipal libranes which started through the old mechanics institutes but permeated the whole of Victoria to create a widespread network of centres of learning have fallen into disrepair.

We have seen a great system of penetration fall through lack of resources and through limited resources not meeting the needs of the people. If ever there were a need, a need exists in this day and age for library facilities and for people to have access to those places of learning. People need tangible proof that they are giving themselves the best that our civilisation has acquired and the best is our libraries-in our art collections, our literary collections, and our historical collections. Everything that is important, vital and best for the community is embodied in our libraries. With the materialistic pressures that people are experiencing today, the transient type of existence and the fleeting electronic media, newspapers and magazines it is all the more important that people learn to appreciate, understand and have access to the permanency that only collections of books have.

Judging by the number of people concerned about the state of our libraries, that need is evident in the community. There is a resurgence and a renaissance taking


place in libraries in Victoria; there is certainly a need for them. Other speakers have mentioned the various groups in our community who want access to good library facilities. In modem libraries and certainly in suburban libraries even small children are catered for. That was not the case in the old-style municipal libraries, as I understand them, where once one entered them one had to be quiet. They were not places for children. Now preschool children are being encouraged to use library facilities so that they can learn at an early age the values and strengths that can be found in collections of books.

Thinking parents take their preschool children to libraries to give them the opportunity of learning their value. Municipal libraries such as those in Camberwell, Kew and Richmond-where my children have gone-are filled with schoolchildren using their facilities after school hours. That must be encouraged but it can be done only if the books are available and the milieu is acceptable to children. Librarians must have the time to help students seek books and show them how to get the best out of a library system. As Mr Evans suggested, with the new Victorian certificate of education and the need for students to do projects and to research their own learning, access to libraries is becoming more important and it is imperative that the government ensures that those library facilities are available.

The State Library of Victoria was in the past one of the great libraries of the world. The state of disrepair into which that library, both in the building and its endowments, has been allowed to fall is a sad and sorry reflection on the priorities of this State to national and State treasures both in the collection of books and the building itself. If this State is serious about what it wants to offer its people, library development must be a high priority. It is obvious that all things are priorities and much has been said about other things that have taken precedence. However, the community is now saying that there are more important things than games, sports and other facilities and that our libraries, our centres of learning, must be one of our highest priorities.

The community is ready for expenditure on libraries because it understands the justification for a first-class library for this State. I have been approached recently by two w-oups of people concerned with personal endowments, fundraising and contnbutions to libraries. That attitude should be encouraged. One group comprised prominent people in Victoria who were taking upon themselves the responsibility of starting some action to upgrade and develop public libraries in Victoria. It was put to me that moneys could be found if there were any possibility of working with the ~overnment in doing something about the State's libraries. I certainly encourage the Initiatives taken by that group. An excellent partnership could be formed by the government with private enterprise, corporate sponsorship, and concerned people willing to support any initiatives taken by the government. It shows the recognition of the value of libraries when people arc willing to contribute and to work towards restoration of what is a wonderful educational and cultural centre in Victoria.

I have also received in the past ten days representation from a group of people about a small library in the Central Highlands Province. That group is concerned that it has never received funding for an adequate library in a small town in the north east of Victoria. The group is seeking funding from trusts and from private enterprise and intends to approach the government and local government with a proposal to work together in establishing a library. That initiative should be commended because it indicates the concern of the community for maintaining and expanding library systems.

The Bill sets out some changes to the operation and control of libraries. It has been said earlier that without sufficient funding not much will be achieved. I ask the government to take into account the established benefits of the contribution of collections of books to the whole culture of a State. Initiatives from private enterprise should be taken up by the government to ensure those benefits to the community are


provided. High priority must be given to worthwhile library centres throughout Victoria.

The Opposition commends the Bill but asks that it be backed up with proper financial resources to bring back to Victoria the excellent library facilities that were enjoyed in the past.


The Bill was read a second time and committed.

Clause 1

The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-I wish to raise with the Minister for Ethnic Affairs concerns raised by the Geelong Regional Library about the Bill. Throughout the Libraries Act 1958 the word "free" occurs every time the word "library" is mentioned. The word "free" appears only twice in the Bill and libraries are referred to simply as "libraries" or "public libraries". The concern is for the basic fundamental right of every citizen to· have free access to information regardless of ability to pay and I seek an assurance from the Minister that that is still the policy of the government and that one cannot read into the fact that the word "free" has been removed throughout the Bill that the government has not some intention of moving towards a user-pays principle.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I can $j.ve Mr Mackenzie the assurance that he seeks. I am advised that the Library CouncIl of Victoria Act 1965 defines "free library" as a library providing a free library service on its premises notwithstanding that a charge may be made for the loan of books to be read off the premises. However, no charge other than a fine for late returns is made for the loan of books to be read off the premises. That situation exists because of the government's continued commitment to a free municipal public library system, as is manifest by the conditions for receipt of library grants which specify that no book lending charges shall be imposed.

There is to be no change from the current free library system that Mr Mackenzie has been speaking about. He has that assurance.

The clause was agreed to.

Clause 2

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I thank honourable members for their contributions. I shall answer several of the concerns raised. As Mr Chamberlain observed earlier, the Minister responsible for major projects was in the Chamber when assurances were sought about the building of the museum and the conditions at the State Library of Victoria. He has informed me that early work will be undertaken to improve conditions at the State Library of Victoria and that it will not be necessary to wait for the new museum to house the present library collections in better conditions. Although four years is the time scale for the construction of the musuem, early work will be undertaken to make certain of that.

The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-Are there any indications given?

The Hon. C. J. HOGG-The Minister believes early ongoing work to house the collection in better conditions will begin very soon, and working conditions for the storage of books and documents will improve.

In terms of general funding, the government has made it clear that it has accepted the recommendations of the Power committee for a new and more equitable funding formula which acknowledges the special needs and disabilities of individual libraries.


The Power commitee-or its successor-will continue to monitor the implementation of the formula and will welcome input from municipal libraries on funding issues. Direct municipal input will eventuate as a result of the Bill. The successor to the Power committee will include representatives from local government and the libraries profession. It will be the prime source of advice to the government on library funding.

Mr Evans raised the number of years one can serve on a particular committee and he referred particularly to the three-by-three year appointments. That is a common point or provision in Ministry for the Arts legislation, as I am advised, and it has been in use for some time.

In terms of the broad comments and contributions made, I thank Mrs Tehan and Mr Lawson, and am assured that the suggestions made b¥ Mrs Tehan about partnership and endowments for both State and individual munIcipal libraries will be looked upon with interest. Indeed, some work has already been done on issues relating to that prospect.

My comments should answer some of the points made by honourable members. The government will be accepting the amendments to be moved by Mr Chamberlain.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province )-Mrs Tehan would be aware that any donations to libraries are tax deductible.

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright)-Order! Clause 2 refers to the day the Bill comes into operation.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-I wish to further comment on statements made by the MiT'ister in relation to funding.

The CHAIRMAN-Order! Mr Chamberlain does not have the opportunity under clause 2.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-I will sneak it in somewhere else.

The clause was agreed to.

Clause 3

The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-The Australian Council of Libraries and Information Services has written to all members of Parliament indicating a concern about clause 49 which relates to legal deposit provisions. Its concern actually refers to the definition of "publication" in clause 3. The Australian Council of Libraries and Information Services is concerned that while there is a wider power under clause 49 to enforce the lodging of publications in Victoria with the libraries service, a number of State government and indeed some local ~overnment publications may not now be deposited. The issue raised by ACLAFS IS that government and semigovernment publications should be specifically mentioned in the definition of "publication" to put the matter totally beyond doubt.

I am a little uncertain whether paragraph (a) of the definition of "publication" is adequate to cover the requirement for government and local government to be included within the ambit of the Bill. The Minister may be able to assure the Chamber whether, in terms of the Bill, government publications must be deposited with the State Library of Victoria system. Otherwise, I suggest that the simple solution would be to insert the words "including government and local government publications" immediately after the words "any other printed matter". That would cover the requirements and concerns raised.

All such publications should be available to Victorian citizens at least at a central point; the State Library of Victoria would be the logical place. The Minister may have


taken advice and may be able to provide further information. She may accede to the request 1 have made to include those words and assure the Chamber that the publications will be included and that the requirement to include them will be enforced.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-To pursue the issues raised by Mr Evans, I agree that every government agency should be bound by the provision. Clause 49 states:

(1) A good copy of the whole of every new publication published in Victoria, other than a prescribed publication ... "

The government has an opportunity to exempt a particular publication by regulation. Every other publication in Victoria would be bound by that provision. Even the Crown is bound under general principles by the provisions. The Commonwealth and its agencies are the only bodies that cannot be so bound. Hopefully, the Minister will acknowledge that every government agency is bound by the Bill. A specific direction should then be issued from the Minister for the Arts to every agency in Victoria reminding it of its obligations.

1 note that the definition of "publication" is wider than it was when honourable members first saw the Bill. At that stage it did not cover microfiche video material or computer material. It does not refer specifically to computer material but refers to "discs". 1 ask the Minister to confirm that "discs" includes discs used in association with computerised material, such as floppy and hard discs, as well as those that are continually being developed. If the Minister can confirm that, posterity will be able to look at her words and say, "That is what the Minister meant, and that is what it does mean".

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I am advised that I can provide that assurance. "Disc" does mean the software, I think we call it.

The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-No, not software; it is part of or the method of storing information.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG-"Disc" in this case refers to part of or the method of storing information that has to do with computer systems. I believe that it is clear enough for posterity and, I hope, for Mr Chamberlain.

On the point raised by Mr Evans, I believe the specific Premier's circular covered the issue of government departments and their publications. The State Librarian's advice is that government departments are abiding, and do abide, by the Premier's directive on this matter, and that no problem exists with the provision of publications by government agencies to the State Library. But 1 am happy to provide an assurance to Mr Evans that a reminder can be given to that effect.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province )-1 am happy with the assurances given by the Minister. I agree with her and with Mr Chamberlain that the clause covers the eventuality, but I raised the matter because of concern expressed by what I believe to be a responsible body that such action has not been happening. It may well be that the sections in the Act have not been adequately enforced within government agencies. If that is so, although the legislation may be adequate, compliance has not been.

The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 4 to 8.

Clause 9

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-The Bill establishes the Libraries Board of Victoria, which has, under clause 7, some important and key


functions. Consequently, the membership of the board and the way in which its members are selected is important.

The amendments to clause 9 standing in my name will have the effect of ensuring that the members of the board appointed under paragraphs (e) and <f) will be selected from a panel of three names submitted by the Municipal Association of Victoria.

I note that that matter was raised in the other place and not accepted by the Minister for the Arts, but he undertook to do some work on the issue. I am unsure about whether there has been a compromise, but from a comment made by the Minister for Ethnic Affairs, who is handling the Bill in this Chamber, it appears that the ~overnment will accept the proposed amendments. The proposal of a panel of names IS a formula often used by Parliament. Although the Municipal Association of Victoria does not represent every municipality in the State, it represents 90 per cent of them. This is a reasonable proposition and should be accepted by the Committee.

Accordingly, I move: 1. Clause 9, line 37, after "matters" insert "selected from a panel of three names submitted by the

Municipal Association of Victoria".

2. Clause 9, line 39, after "matters" insert "selected from a panel of three names submitted by the Municipal Association of Victoria".

3. Clause 9, page 5, line 12, after "Branch)" insert "or the Municipal Association of Victoria".

4. Clause 9, page 5, line 18, after "Branch)" insert "or the Municipal Association of Victoria (as the case may be)".

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province)-The National Party supports this concept. Had Mr Chamberlain not moved the amendments, it was my party's intention to do so. That intention was pointed out by the honourable member for Lowan when the Bill was debated in the other place.

The National Party endorses the concept of the Municipal Association of Victoria having the power and responsibility to nominate some of the members who will be appointed under clause 9. The National Party trusts the government, after due consideration while the Bill has been between the other place and here, will accept these sensible amendments.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-As Mr Chamberlain pointed out, the Minister for the Arts agreed to further work being done on this, and, as Mr Evans pointed out, that due consideration has been given. Accordingly, the government accepts the amendments.

The amendments were agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 10 to 48.

Clause 49

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-The clause repeats the requirement for a legal deposit which is in the present Act. Clause 49 (1) states:

A good copy of the whole of every new publication published in Victoria, other than a prescribed publication, must be deposited by or on behalf of the publisher in accordance with directions of the Council at a place or with a person determined by the Council within 2 months after the day on which the publication was first published.

The clause leaves it open to the Council of the State Library of Victoria to decide where in fact this deposit will take place. The obvious place for most publications is at the State Library, but there is a class of publications that should, as a matter of course, go to local libraries. In particular, I refer to local histories, matters of local geography and tourism or items of interest to a specific area. If something deals with


the shipwrecks along the south-western coast of Victoria, it will obviously have significant interest to libraries in that area. I do not suggest that the publisher should have to produce 100 copies of a publication, but if something identifies with specific areas it is only sensible that the places for deposit should be the regional libraries of such areas. The whole of the State would be covered by this provision.

I do not suggest that the clause should be amended, but a view should be expressed to the council that this is what should happen in such cases. In most cases the publisher could provide a couple of copies-one for the central library and one for the specific area. This matter is worth pursuing and has been raised with me on several occasions. The legal requirement of the deposit appears to have been ignored by some publishers, particularly small publishers. Perhaps publishers should be reminded by public advertising or by other means of the obligations imposed on them by this provision.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I am happy to assure Mr Chamberlain that his comments will be drawn to the attention of the Council of the State Library of Victoria. What he said makes good sense, and I should be distressed if I discovered that anything to do with the Collingwood area appeared only in the State Library and not in the Carringbush Regional Library. At this stage the clause is subject not to an amendment but to further work and adVice by the council.

The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 501052.

Clause 53

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province )-1 move: Clause 53, line 21, after sub-clause (2) insert-

"(3) Regulations made under this Act may be disallowed in whole or in part by resolution of either House of the Parliament in accordance with the requirements of section 6 (2) of the Subordinate Legislation Act 1962.

(4) Disallowance under sub-section (3) is deemed to be disallowance by Parliament for the purposes of the Subordinate Legislation Act 1962.".

I thank my colleague, Mr "Sherlock" Evans, for reminding me of my omission in not providing for the disallowance of regulations. I need not take the Committee through the reasons, but in shorthand I shall say that the Opposition has adopted a practice that has operated in the Australian Senate since 1932, and it has a good constitutional history. This amendment gives either House of Parliament the right to disallow regulations. An example of what can be provided for in regulations is the issue of funding for individual libraries.

I remind the Minister for Ethnic Affairs of the government's undertaking to provide funding for libraries on a 50-50 basis. Funding has been reduced so that the government's contribution is now 30 per cent. There has been no indication from the Minister as to what will happen in the future. Is there to be a further contraction-as can be provided by regulation-so that pressure will be brought to bear on libraries to further increase their contribution or to opt out of the service? Either result would be most re$l'ettable. Perhaps the Minister might take the opportunity of indicating the future direction of funding for libraries.

The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-The National Party supports the amendment moved by Mr Chamberlain. I thank Mr Chamberlain for the reference to "Sherlock" Evans.

The amendment is important because regulations are playing an increasingly important part in the legislation passed by Parliament. Despite the power vested in Parliament under the Subordinate Legislation Act and the responsibilities of the Subordinate Legislation Subcommittee of the Legal and Constitutional Committee,

646 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Constitution Act Amendment Bill

there is a requirement for political and Parliamentary scrutiny of regulations. The opportunity for that scrutiny should be retained so that Parliament has the power to enforce its views in exactly the same fashion as Parliament has primacy over Bills presented to it. That primacy is expressed in the ability of either House of Parliament to reject or amend legislation or-as in this case-reject regulations. It is a proper provision and, although I am sure it will be rarely used, it will provide a safeguard for the people of Victoria.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-The amendment moved by Mr Chamberlain has been tested on several occasions before in this Chamber. The government will not be seeking to have it tested again and therefore accepts the amendment.

In respect of the broader funding question raised by Mr Chamberlain, it is obvious that the government has not been able to fulfil its pledge made in 1982 to provide funding for public libraries on a 50-50 basis, because the government had no control over the total amount of funds put into libraries by local government.

The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-That is a funny sort of comment!

The Hon. C. J. HOGG-Despite the government's hope to be able to fund libraries on a 50-50 basis, it has not been successful. Instead, the government has tried to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the library system by allocating money on the basis of need, performance, and disability.

In the 1988-89 municipal year funds made available to public libraries amounted to $19·3 million, an increase of 8·4 per cent on the amount made available in the previous municipal year. It is a considerable increase when one compares it with the increase in other areas of government expenditure. I hope that kind of increase continues to be maintained. I imagine advice on funding will be offered regularly.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the remaining clause~.



The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time.

INTRODUCTION

This Bill introduces amendments to The Constitution Act Amendment Act 1958. It contains two major reforms. The first is to replace the Chief Electoral Officer with an independent Electoral Commissioner. The second provides that only approved howto-vote cards can be distributed near polling places on polling day.

A similar Bill was introduced by this government in the last Parliament. That Bill was passed by the Legislative Assembly on 11 November 1987. The Bill was read a first time in the Legislative Council on 12 November, and debate on the Bill was then adjourned. On 10 March 1988, the Legislative Council resolved to establish a Select Committee to review both the Bill and the Nunawading Province re-election of 17 August 1985. The Select Committee held its first meeting on 23 March 1988, and its report was tabled in Parliament on 2 August 1988.

Constitution Act Amendment Bill 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 647

The government has noted the report of the Select Committee. In general, the committee's recommendations have been adopted by the government and incorporated in the Bill before the House. I now propose to outline the Bill and to indicate the positive way in which the government has responded to the committee's recommendations.

AN INDEPENDENT ELECTORAL COMMISSIONER

The government wishes Victoria's senior electoral official to have both the appearance and reality of independence. The integrity of the electoral process has been scrupulously protected by this government but this reform places the independence of the senior electoral official beyond doubt.

The Bill provides that the office of Chief Electoral Officer will be replaced by the office of Electoral Commissioner. The commissioner will have the powers of a chief administrator and will have the same independent status as that enjoyed by the Auditor-General, the Director of Public Prosecutions, and the Chairman of the Public Service Board. The Bill also provides for a Deputy Electoral Commissioner to allow full dele~ation of authority to an equally independent officer. The commissioner will report dIrect to Parliament following each election, including by-elections, and will have power to appoint returning officers and polling places. These duties and responsibilities will be carried out without reference to a Minister.

In its report, the Legislative Council Select Committee states that it "is satisfied that the independence of the Electoral Commissioner as proposed through the Bill can be achieved". However, the committee recommended three measures to reinforce the commissioner's independence. All have been incorporated in the Bill.

Firstly, the committee recommended that the commissioner be appointed until retirement, or for a fixed long term. The Bill provides for both the commissioner and his deputy to be appointed for a period of ten years, with reappointments possible thereafter for terms up to ten years.

Secondly, the committee recommended "a provision barring the appointment of a person as commissioner who is or has been a member of a registered political party within five years prior to the date of appointment". Such a provision has been incorporated in the Bill with regard to both the commissioner and the deputy commissioner.

Thirdly, the committee recommended that the Electoral Commissioner, rather than the Governor in Council, have power "to prescribe such matters as are necessary for the conduct of elections in this State". The thrust of this recommendation has been incorporated in the Bill, which provides for the Governor in Council to make regulations on the recommendation of the Electoral Commissioner.

HOW-TO-VOTECARDS

The government is committed to introducing a reform to ensure that electors are not handed misleadin~ or deceptive how-to-vote cards on polling day. The Legislative Council Select CommIttee states in its report that it is satisfied that there is a need for a system of registration and approval of how-to-vote cards. However, the committee noted practical problems with the earlier Bill proposed by the government. These problems have been addressed in the Bill now before the House.

The earlier Bill proposed a centralised model for the approval of how-to-vote cards: all cards were to be submitted to the Electoral Commissioner for consideration. Because of the Select Committee's recommendations, the Bill now incorporates a decentralised process by which individual returning officers consider how-to-vote cards, and, if appropriate, provisionally approve them and then later register them.

648 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Business Franchise Acts (Amendment) Bill

Cards that are likely to mislead or deceive an elector in relation to the casting of the vote of the elector or which contain offensive or obscene material will not be approved.

The committee recommended that there should be appeals to the Electoral Commissioner from decisions of individual returning officers, and that the decision of the commissioner should be final. The government does not support this approach, and the Bill retains appeals to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal-AA T -from decisions of the commissioner. Retention of appeals to the AA T is considered an important safe~uard. Those aggrieved by a decision of the commissioner should have a forum in WhICh to air their'views and make submissions before a final decision is made. The AA T is an appropriate forum to hear argument and determine such matters. Decisions by the commissioner will be made solely on the basis of an examination of proposed how-to-vote material and without the benefit of competing views being presented and argued. In the circumstances, the government considers it important to retain appeals to the AAT from decisions of the commissioner.

Although the Bill proposes a decentralised model for the approval of how-to-vote cards, it also includes a "fast track" method for possible use by the registered political parties. If it chooses, a registered political party may submit a "format how-to-vote card" to the Electoral Commissioner for provisional approval. This is to streamline the approval process when a party wishes to use essentially the same card-but with minor modifications-across the State. It is important to emphasise that the how-tovote card provisions apply only to how-to-vote cards handed out on polling day. Distribution of non-approved cards on polling day in the vicinity of a polling place will be an offence.

CONCLUSION

The measures outlined by the Minister for Property and Services in the other place are designed to improve the State's electoral process. The measures have been reviewed by an all-party Select Committee, and the recommendations of that committee have generally bee~ incorporated in the Bill now before the House.

The Bill deserves the support of all honourable members. I commend it to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern Province), the debate was adjourned.


BUSINESS FRANCHISE ACTS (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from November 24) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White

(Minister for Health) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY (Nunawading Province)-The Bill seeks to overcome the deficiencies in Victorian legislation imposing business franchise fees on businesses selling petroleum and tobacco products which arise from a decision of the High Court in the case of Alston Holdings Pty Ltd. In that case the High Court held that paragraphs (c) and (cl) of section 10 (1) of the Act are invalid by virtue of the fact that they infringe section 92 of the Australian Constitution. That section was designed to establish a constitutional entitlement to freedom of trade between the States of the Australian Commonwealth.

Recently, the High Court handed down an authoritative decision in the case of Co le v. Whitfield, which was designed, it would seem, to clarify the approach the High Court will adopt in the future to the interpretation of section 92 and its application to

Business Franchise Acts (Amendment) Bill 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 649

particular situations. All honourable members, especially Mr Guest, would agree that section 92 creates many problems.

The effect of the decision, had no action been taken by the government, would have been to imperil a large proportion of revenue raised by petroleum and tobacco franchise fees. Accordingly, immediately the decision was made the government indicated that it proposed to introduce amendments to alter the way in which the tax was imposed and collected to protect Victorian revenue.

The Liberal Party has no brief to defend people who attempt to evade taxation, especially those who contrive artificial schemes to evade tax. Accordingly, the Opposition does not oppose the proposed legislation but it has grave reservations about whether the Bill provides a solution to the problem-in the long or short termrelating to the constitutional validity of this form of taxation. The problems that have arisen in the recent past have been largely mitigated by the fact that all States, especially Queensland, now impose a franchise fee of some sort. Clearly, commercial operators in the State that impose the highest level of taxation will attempt to circumvent the tax by contriving artificial mechanisms through which to conduct their business in the State that imposes a lower level of taxation.

A number of wholesalers were puchasing tobacco in Queensland, where no wholesale tax applied, and were reselling the tobacco in Victoria. This business was undertaken to avoid the franchise fees. In addition, some operators sought to avoid all forms of franchise fees. That practice was blatant and it is hoped the Bill will overcome the problem.

In the past the Liberal Party has strongly criticised actions taken to evade taxation. Although everyone is entitled to attempt to minimise the amount of tax that he or she pays, deliberate actions taken to evade the paying of tax cannot be supported. The result of tax evasion is that some sections of the community are forced to pay higher taxes. People who are not simply taking advantage of theu constitutional rights to minimise taxation but are also engaged in schemes involving not only tax avoidance but also tax evasion cannot be supported. The Treasurer attempted to cast a slur on those people who, under current legislation, attempt to minimise their taxation. There is nothing wrong with such actions if those actions are legal.

The Hon. C. F. Van Buren-It's cheating!

The Hon. R. S. de Fegely-Don't tell me Mr Van Buren doesn't claim everything he can!

The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY-Surely Mr Van Buren is not saying that tax minimisation should not occur! I am sure he makes every attempt to minimise his tax.

It is by no means clear that the Bill will overcome the problems highlighted in the High Court decision. This is an extremely difficult area. It may be that even when the Bill is proclaimed further court proceedings could highlight other deficiencies. The problem is now less significant than it was because other States have imposed similar franchise fees; therefore, the same incentive does not exist to try to avoid taxation. The Liberal Party is concerned that the provisions contained in the Bill will confer a significant commercial advantage on those tobacco wholesalers who will collect the franchise fees. Those people will be in the box seat because they will be able to say to the government, "We will collect your franchise fees-but ... " Without their cooperation it would be difficult for the government to collect those fees, because it would have to collect them from every retailer of petroleum and tobacco products-a mammoth task. If the franchise fees are to be collected by wholesalers, the administration of the fee becomes much easier, especially as wholesalers have offered


voluntarily to collect the revenue. The Liberal Party considers that that gives the wholesaler an important commercial advantage.

The Liberal Party is concerned about the concept offranchise fees and the application of those fees to liquor, tobacco and other areas that are levied on the same basis. In addition to the section 92 argument, it has lon$ been recognised that it is difficult to decide whether franchise fees are, in fact, eXCIse fees, and whether they should be collected by State governments or the Commonwealth government. It is an area in which there is wide scope for debate. The Bill was cobbled together in ha')te to address the issues raised by the High Court decision to which I have referred. The Bill exposes the government to possible commercial pressure and it may not resolve the problems that have been shown up by previous court decisions. Other legal challenges may be mounted because of weaknesses in the Bill.

The Liberal Party is also concerned about the retrospective provisions in the Bill. Because the tax will be collected on a three-monthly arrears basis, there will be windfalls for some people who pay the tax because of the way the Bill has been drafted. The Liberal Party's support for the Bill should not be taken by the government as establishing a precedent for the support of retrospective legislation. The Bill is an exception to the general rule adopted by the Liberal Party-and it should be viewed as an isolated case. The Treasurer cannot automatically depend on the Liberal Party's support for retrospective legislation, even in circumstances similar to those covered by the Bill. It is only because of special and narrow circumstances that the Liberal Party will not oppose the Bill.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The Bill has its genesis in .a High Court decision which held, by a majority of four to three, that the Business Franchise (Tobacco) Act breached the famous section 92 of the Constitution. The law says that Victorian retailers are required to pay a 30 per cent ad valorem tobacco licence fee. However, it they were to purchase their products from a licensed wholesaler, that 30 per cent figure would be built into the cost at which they bought their tobacco products. Technically, therefore, there is no advantage to be gained from purchasing such products from interstate wholesalers. There is a disadvantage because, in those circumstances, the retailer is required to go through the administrative procedure of documenting those purchases and forwarding a remittance to cover the ad valorem fee.

The obvious question is what was the incentive for the development of a flourishing trade in moving tobacco from interstate, particularly Queensland, which just happened not to have a tobacco licence fee. One does not need to be an Einstein to understand how the trade flourished. It was obvious that a considerable proportion of tobacco trade did not go through the normal procedures and retailers ran the risk of not declaring those purchases.

The Business Franchise Acts (Amendment) Bill can be administered more easily at the wholesale level rather than the retail level simply because there are far fewer wholesalers than retailers. Tobacco wholesalers have their whole trade at risk and, in my experience, they abide by the regulations. Victoria has thousands of retailers of tobacco products, from the large supermarkets to the small corner stores, and the incentive to obtain goods from an interstate cash van, with the prospect of far better margins from tobacco sales, means that many retailers might take the risk of not declaring those tobacco purchases.

Some retailers are prepared to break the rules to increase their margins, and the community should not be greatly concerned at that. The traders' ingenuity is often used to bend the rules. That will always be the case where border anomalies exist because the anomalies provide the incentive to bend the rules; they have done so since

Business Franchise Acts (Amendment) Bill 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 651

the onset of interstate boundary restrictions. This is particularly so in this instance where the administration of tobacco regulations is difficult for the authorities, especially given the number of retailers compared to the number of inspectors.

Whatever the adventure traditionally associated with smuggling, which has occurred since the first boundary restrictions were introduced, Parliament should not be lulled into some quasi-acceptance of such a trade because that trade is disadvantaging the very people who obey the rules, and that cannot be countenanced. People who keep to the rules are the ones who will be disadvantaged by that interstate trade.

I understand the frustrations of Victorian tobacco wholesalers whose trade is being eroded by the fly-by-night traders, particularly from Queensland; less scrupulous suppliers whose only advantage is that they are prepared to say that they will be careless about whether they will disclose who purchased tobacco products from them with the intent that the retailer could take the risk whether to declare the purchases and thus pay the 30 per cent ad valorem fee. Quite obviously, many retailers "forgot" to declare those tobacco purchases.

If Parliament is prepared to impose these taxes it is its responsibility to protect those who obey the law. If Parliament had the opportunity of debating the ad valorem fees and the level of those fees, the stance of the National Party would be quite different, particularly regarding petroleum products, where the ad valorem fee is 7·8 per cent on petrol and 11 per cent on diesel. The National Party objects to that massive impost on those products because of the bias against country people who are most reliant on fuel. That fee structure is extremely discriminatory against country people and, as I stated, if that aspect of the legislation were debated the National Party would adopt a different stance.

The easy way to confront this problem, as was indicated before, is to obtain uniformity between States, and it is clear that Queensland's recent decision to impose a tobacco licence fee will make it easier for Victorian authorities to enforce the proposed legislation, because that fee will remove the incentive that saw the trade develop in the first instance. The question that arises, if that is the situation, is why the amending legislation is required. The fact is that the recent court decision to which I referred, which held that the Victorian legislation discriminated against retailers purchasing from Queensland wholesalers in the course of interstate trade, was based on the legal perspective. It is a puzzling decision because it ignores the fact that there would be no trade at all apart from the incentive to bend the rule as a result of the interstate trade. If one considers the freight component there is no incentive for the trade to flourish unless the rules are being bent, and the court ignored that facet.

It is clear that the whole structure of interstate trade was a contrivance to get around the law, particularly when one takes into account the cost of freighting an article almost halfway across the nation. It is also clear that the trade was not above board, and that makes the court decision puzzling. However, as I said, the court considered the matter from a legal perspective because that was the brief handed to it.

The government now requires amending legislation to correct the anomaly and to ensure that retail purchases, in effect, will be exempt from ad valorem fees irrespective of where their wholesaler is located. In other words, if purchases are made from a Victorian wholesaler they are exempt from ad valorem duty and the same shall apply if they are purchased from a wholesaler registered interstate. No discrimination shall occur. That is the effect sought by the Bill and it is successful to that extent, but I am not confident that it will have the outcome the government desires.

The Bill has one glaring problem regarding the Victorian retailer who sells products for consumption in another State and who would, but for some form of relief,


technically be subject to two levels of taxation. In other words, the retailer would be caught by the 30 per cent fee built into the cost of the purchase from a Victorian licensed wholesaler and then be subject to the tax at a retail level in the other State.

The provisions of the Bill are drafted to get around that problem. The Bill provides that a wholesaler cannot be refused a licence on the ground that he knew or believed a product sold by a retailer was for retail or consumption outside Victoria. It is very clear. Obviously a product resold or consumed outside the State is free of duty and the wholesaler may exclude that from the documented purchases if he is reasonably able to indicate that the product is to be sold outside Victoria. It is a negative test. The wholesaler will incur a penalty only if the retailer makes a false statement as to the location or consumption of the sale and the wholesaler knew that statement to be false. The Minister for Health made that clear during his second-reading speech, as did the Comptroller of Stamps during a briefing he gave to members of the National Party.

The Bill also increases penalties and incorporates a provision relating to investigation of breaches, searches and seizure of products. If Parliament is prepared to impose this tax in the first instance it is incumbent on it to provide the teeth to administer the law to prevent people from continuing to flout the law.

Discussion has occurred regarding the backdating of the Bill to the date of the High Court decision of 7 June. As a matter of principle the National Party is implacably opposed to the concept ofretrospectivity. However, I put it to the House that the Bill is not retrospective; it simply backdates the measures designed to enforce compliance of a law already in existence. There is no shift in fee levels or anything of that nature. All the Bill does is make a change to allow the law to take effect as it was designed to do, and the National Party has no objections on those grounds and supports the Bill without amendment.

My only criticism is directed to the lack of uniformity which allowed the trade to flourish in the first place. The Bill may assist in the administration of the fee structure, but it is a costly exercise and it is prompted by a trade that does nothing for the economy in an aggregate sense. In fact, the trade clearly misdirects the allocation of resources.

There are many good arguments for the existence of our States and their autonomy. However, experiences of this ilk erode those arguments. In other words, they negate many of the advantages. It is a pity the States cannot cooperate instead of indulging in the one-upmanship that one comes across consistently. In this case it has produced an artificial trade and enormous administrative costs at all levels.

I am concerned about a possible technical problem relating to clauses 27 and 38. Because of the way the Bill has been drafted, there appears to be an assumption that it will become law before 30 November. The Bill seems to build in a hiatus and provides the opportunity for some retailers to argue that purchases that are challenged were made between 1 December and the date the Bill is to be proclaimed. I suggest that the date of 30 November should be amended, and I seek some advice from the Minister on that point. Having said that, I state that the National Party is happy to support the Bill.



The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-By leave, I move: That this Bill be now read a third time.


In doing so, I take up the point Mr Hallam raised in respect of clause 38. The Commissioner of Business Franchises advises that 30 November 1988 is the relevant date as the industry is geared to those arrangements. To set back the date to 1 January 1989, for example, may create evasion opportunities. After taking into account Mr Hallam's views, it is the opinion of the government that the date in the Bill should remain the same.


STAMPS (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL The House went into Committee for the consideration of this Bill.

Clause 1 was agreed to.

Clause 2

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-During the debate in the other place, a number of issues were raised and the Treasurer indicated willingness to respond to those matters when the Bill was debated in Committee in this place.

As to the three-month duty-free period, the stock exchange requested a three-month duty-free holding period for marketable securities underlying futures contracts. This minor exempt period for options dealings in Sydney is what the Bill provides. The stock exchange is happy with the provision.

As to transactions dutiable under the Third Schedule-that is, off-market transactions-amendment No. 4 moved by the Treasurer in the other place exempts off-market transfers that would otherwise be dutiable under clause IV (A) of the Third Schedule.

As to whether futures options are excluded from the definition of futures contracts, the stock exchange did not request and does not request that any exemption be expended to underlying securities in futures options contracts. It wishes to exempt only trading in underlying securities of futures contracts which do not include futures options. In other words, the government has delivered the policy agreed to in response to stock exchange submissions.

As to liability on dealings by interstate futures members, there is no liability to pay duty if the futures members' operations are conducted in Victoria. As to inspection of records, the requirements to inspect are necessary for the Stamps Office to identify relevant dealings.

As to the right to recover from clients, those provisions in the Bill are concessional so that duty will be payable only if the concessional90-day duty-free period is exceeded. In those circumstances the broker would be acting on his own behalf, so the question of passing on the duty does not arise.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

ADJOURNMENT Herbalife Australasia Pty Ltd-Availability of land in Eaglehawk-Nursing home

beds in Bacchus Marsh-Trades Hall Council representatives on boards and committees-Dunkeld water supply-Safety of Yugoslav consulate-Vacant houses in Wodonga-Tenants Union of Victoria Inc.-Public Record Office

654 COUNCIL 6 December 1988 Adjournment

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-I move: That the House do now adjourn.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister for Health a matter I raised on 23 November in a question without notice. I reminded the Minister of a letter he had written to me in August about an organisation called Herbalife Australasia Pty Ltd which produces a number of products about which considerable claims are made.

The Hon. D. R. White-Especially the hair restorer!

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-The hair restorer and weight reduction. The Minister said in his letter that a number of products submitted were not accepted because the therapeutic claims were exaggerated and without foundation. The Minister also indicated in the letter that officers of his department were collecting material on the activities of the company and consideration was being given to conducting an investigation.

In his response to my question, the Minister said: I am unable to say whether those products are still on the market and I am unable to say what stage the

investigations have reached, but I shall take steps to find out whether prosecutions are likely and I shall inform Mr Chamberlain in due course.

Is the Minister now able to inform the House of the nature of those products, the nature of the inquiry, and whether any charges are to be laid?

The Hon. R. A. BEST (North Western Province)-I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction, who is the representative in this place of the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands. In 1984-85 a local company had a tailings removal licence over an area of some 7 hectares of land known as Shellback Mine Sand Dumps at Eaglehawk. The area of land is bounded by Poplar Street, Shellback Road, and Murdoch Street in Eaglehawk. The company completed removing the tailings and the licence expired in April 1985. The land reverted to the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands.

Eaglehawk borough councillors approached the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands in order to buy the land for housing development and the department agreed to sell the land. There is a lack of land available for development in Eaglehawk, which is of concern to the borough and which should be of concern to the Minister.

Eaglehawk at present has a building growth rate of 50 new houses a year. The borough is concerned that unless parcels of rehabilitated Crown land such as this are opened up for development the growth of the borough will be stifled significantly.

Recently the Prime Minister wrote to the State Premiers urging them to open new tracts of land for housing development as a means of stemming rapid land price increases which, along with high interest rates, have put home ownership beyond the reach of many families. Some three years and seven months later the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands has not yet completed the paperwork necessary to transfer the land. That is totally unacceptable and I ask the Minister to convey this concern to the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands.

The Borough of Eaglehawk has a further problem in that little private land is available for industrial development in the borough.

The PRESIDENT -Order! I take it that Mr Best is raising only one problem and not two.

Adjournment 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 655

The Hon. R. A. BEST-No, it is one problem. Because the land is tied the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands will not pass it over to the borough. I ask the Minister to take up with the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands in another p'lace this problem of housing and industrial development in the Borough of Eaglehawk.

The Hon. R. S. de FEGELY (Ballarat Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister for Health the shortage of nursing home beds in Bacchus Marsh. I have received a letter from two distressed women who, because of the shortage of nursing home beds in Bacchus Marsh, have had to place their mother in the Queen Elizabeth Geriatric Centre in Ballarat. Although that is an excellent institution, the sisters were concerned that their mother, who had lived in Bacchus Marsh almost all her lifethey had been brought up in that part of the world and the family is still living therehas not been able to find a place in the Grant wing of the Bacchus Marsh and District War Memorial Hospital.

It appears the hospital administration has for a considerable period endeavoured to attract funding from the relevant government departments for an additional twenty beds. The sisters state, in their letter that approximately 12·1 per cent of the population in Bacchus Marsh is more than 75 years of age and with an ageing population there is a need for additional nursing home beds in that area.

As the Minister will be aware, the necessity to place a loved one in a nursing home approximately 40 miles distant makes it difficult to keep close contact with that relative. Obviously there is a need in Bacchus Marsh for additional facilities and I ask the Minister to take up the matter with his Federal counterpart in an endeavour to attract funding so that the additional beds can be made available.

The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-I direct to the attention of the Leader of the Government the policy of the government that when Governor in Council appointments are made to boards and committees and where the body is expected to include a representative of the Trades Hall Council, the nomination of the appointee is taken from those supplied by the council. I ask the Minister three questions.

The Hon. E. H. Walker-Three questions? You're allowed only one! The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-No, only one subject! The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-The matters are related; they are consequential. Is

it still government policy to follow the course I have indicated? If so, can the Leader explain the appointment made this week to the Port of Geelong Authority of a person not recommended by the council for that position? Will the Minister inquire on behalf of the Geelong Trades Hall Council as to who made the recommendation to the Governor in Council?

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction, as the representative in this place of the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, the scheme to augment the Dunkeld water supply, which relates to the worst administrative decision about which I have heard. Dunkeld is situated on the southernmost tip of the Grampians National Park; it claims to be the gateway to the Grampians. It has an unsatisfactory water supply comprising a small supply dam located in the Grampians National Park. That dam was there before the Grampians National Park was declared, and that is significant. The township has outgrown the system and its water supply has been augmented for some years by substandard bores; but despite that, more often than not the township has been subject to water restrictions each summer over recent years.

The Shire of Mount Rouse, which is the responsible authority, sought and ~ained Country Water Supply Improvement Plan-COWSIP-funding from the MInister


for Water Resources to improve the Dunkeld water supply, particularly in relation to water quality. The shire then commissioned consultants to investigate the most appropriate means of remedying the problems with the water supply. The consultants came up with the recommendation that a 11 O-megalitre dam be constructed to augment that system. The consultants also recommended a particular site, which happened to be in the Grampians National Park, and apparently that is the sticking point.

Not only was the site recommended by the shire's consultants and endorsed by the shire itself but also it had the support of the Grampians National Park Advisory Committee, as well as, I. am reliably informed, the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands at a regional level. I am quite confident in making that claim, because I have put it to the director-general of the department, and the claim has not been denied. For almost two years the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands has vacillated on this issue.

The Hon. D. R. White-It has what?

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM-It has vacillated. Does the Minister want me to spell it for him? The department recently announced that authority to construct the dam in the national park was denied and it offered a different site, which just happened to be outside the national park.

In addition to that, the department has agreed to pay the additional capital costs associated with the alternative site amounting to $121 000. I should like to add that the site that has been offered has not been surveyed. The consultants are not sure whether it is a practical site; because it was not the preferred site, they did not proceed with a survey. This very day the Shire of Mount Rouse is expending additional sums of money amounting to thousands of dollars to carry out a survey on the alternative site.

On top of all that, the alternative site involves additional pumping costs, we are told, to the extent of$2400 a year. Therefore, not only is $121 000 of taxpayers' funds to be squandered, which amount would have gone a long way towards the establishment of the dam in the first place, but also the residents of Dunkeld will face having to pay additional costs each year. I ask the Minister: for what? They will be required to pay additional costs each year simply because the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands is not prepared to allow the dam to be constructed in the Grampians National Park.

I have been told that part of the rationale for the decision is based upon botanical surveys. I do not accept that rationale, particularly when the Minister was offered an additional 150 acres by way of augmentation for the national park as some sort of quid pro quo, and the offer was rejected.

The local residents are understandably very upset by the Minister's decision. Not only are they to be disadvantaged financially but also the decision is a direct reversal of a quite clear undertaking given by the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands at the time the national park was established. When the park boundaries were considered at a local level, the Shire of Mount Rouse sought an assurance that, if the boundaries were shifted far enough south to take in the existing Dunkeld dam, any question of augmentation in the future would cause no problem. That assurance was given not too many years ago, and there is already a problem. In addition, when the park was established a management plan was prepared.

The Hon. D. R. White-Is this the question or the answer? You have had 5 minutes!


The PRESIDENT -Order! Mr Hallam is starting to debate the issue. I believe he has made the point, and I shall allow him halfa minute to round offhis remarks.

The Hon. R. M. HALLAM-I respect your ruling, Mr President, but I have stuck clearly to the facts of the issue, and one important fact which I want to add is this: when the national park was established a management plan was formulated which said, among other things, that the harvesting of water within the Grampians National Park was not just an acceptable land use but was to be a priority.

Many communities in the electorate I represent rely heavily on the Grampians National Park for water catchment. I appeal to the Minister to use his influence to have the decision reversed to allow the dam to proceed on the preferred site and at the most appropriate outlet. On behalf of the Dunkeld residents I seek from the Minister nothing less than a fair go.

The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-I direct my remarks to the Minister for Ethnic Affairs. Has the Minister noted the recent incident of the shooting of Josef Tokic, allegedly by Matijas Zovan, a member of the Yugoslav consulate in Sydney, and the action of the Federal government in closing the Sydney consulate in retaliation for the action of the Yugoslav government? The action has resulted, as she would know, in the main consulate office remaining in Victoria. At this time the office has no consul-general or any consul; only a vice-consul is in charge.

I ask the Minister: has she consulted with her colleague, the Minister for Police and Emergency Services, to provide adequate and proper protection to the personnel and property of the consultate in Lisson Grove, Hawthorn? Secondly, does she recognise the acute tension among the several ethnic communities of Yugoslav origin? What has she done to allay those tensions? Finally, what serious communication has she had in the past fortnight with the Serbian community and the Croatian community to allay their concerns as Australian citizens?

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-I raise with the Minister for Housing and Construction the large number of vacant Ministry dwellings in Wodonga. Some time ago I raised the matter because I was concerned about the long list of applicants for housing in W odonga, yet some houses have been vacant for more than twelve months.

Strangely enough, the one house that I particularly mentioned on that occasion was filled the very next day or shortly thereafter. It transpired that most of the houses about which I was speaking were Ministry of Housing and Construction houses allocated to the Army, and I was assured that they were no longer required by Army personnel and were in the process of being handed back to the Ministry.

In a letter dated 29 July from the then acting Minister, Mrs Kirner, in reply to my representations she said that it was anticipated that suitable units could be made available to the community within the near future. I am inquiring about the definition of "the near future" seeing that nearly five months have passed. I have observed the following fourteen houses vacant: Nos 42, 50, 52, 62, 66, and 68 Pearce Street, Wodonga; Nos 20,22, and 28 Elm Street; Nos 5 and 14 Rundle Street; Nos 5 and 17 Gilbert Street; and also a house in Beechworth Road. That is by no means an exhaustive list; it just happens to be a list of the houses I drive past en route from my office to my residence. I am not sure exactly how many houses are empty in W odonga but those have been empty for months.

The situation is a disgrace. Families, lone parents, and disadvantaged people have been waiting in some cases for more than two years for houses in Wodonga, yet vast numbers of houses are empty. I appeal to the Minister to take urgent action because

Session 1988-22


the definition of "near future" contained in the acting Minister's letter is wearing rather thin.

The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash Province)-The Minister for Housing and Construction has already had effectual notice of the matter I raise because I started to raise it with him two weeks ago. I want the Minister to explain and justify the government's-and, in particular, his department's-funding and support for the Tenants Union of Victoria Inc. and specifically the payment of the sum of approximately $7570 announced by the Attorney-General, the honourable member for St Kilda, in the week of the election allegedly for the publication of an information pamphlet. As an aside, the pamphlet was to be printed in Russian and Polish and it is by no means irrelevant--

The Hon. B. T. Pullen-Did you say the public tenants union?

The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST-The Tenants Union of Victoria Inc. is a body well known to the Minister. Is it more than a coincidence that about $7500 would have been paid for the 30 000 well-printed pamphlets headed "Don't re-elect this landlord", approximately 30 000 how-to-vote cards, and a number of nicely produced metal medallions saying "Evict Guest from the Upper House", that were distributed on election day and allegedly paid for by the Tenants Union of Victoria Inc., but in reality by way of taxpayers' money?

The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-I raise a matter with the Minister for Housing and Construction, as the representative of the Minister for Property and Services. This issue has been raised with me on many occasions by a constituent who is concerned that the correspondence section of the Public Record Office currently situated at Laverton is no longer open.

My constituent is interested in history and requires access to records to research and write not only a family history but also the history of his own district of Stanley, near Beechworth. Because of a government decision to close the correspondence section, my constituent finds it difficult to obtain information from the Public Record Office.

It is a long way from Stanley to Melbourne. My constituent is a pensioner and is no doubt in a position similar to that of many others who want that sort of access to records. It is not possible for him to come to Melbourne regularly so he does not have the same opportunity of researching records as do people living in the city. I ask that the Minister consider the reopening of the correspondence section of the Public Record Office.

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)Mr Mackenzie asked me to comment on an issue about which I do not have the full details. I do not intend to respond to the specific case he mentioned but I shall make a general comment. It is usual procedure when a Trades Hall Council representative is to be chosen for a board or committee to invite the Trades and Labour Council in, say, Geelong or the Latrobe Valley, or the Victorian Trades Hall Council in Melbourne to offer a panel of two or three names from which a selection might be made. There is no requirement for the selection to be made from that panel or even for that invitation to be given, but that is the normal way it does occur.

I do not know the details of the case mentioned by Mr Mackenzie except to say that, when the Minister concerned did ask for a panel, only one name was offered. I repeat that this procedure is a custom, not a requirement. I shall refer this case to the Minister involved for response in due course.


The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-Mr Chamberlain raised the issue that he raised early in this sessional period regarding Herbalife Australasia Pty Ltd. A specific complaint to the Health Department in connection with the sale of certain Herbalife preparations was investigated by a departmental medical officer and a senior health surveyor in September 1988. The officers concluded that there was insufficient evidence to bring charges under the Health Act 1958 or the Food Act 1984 against the actual vendor or against Herbalife Australasia Pty Ltd.

While some Herbalife Australasia Pty Ltd products are registered as proprietary medicines under the Health Act 1958, others are sold unregistered from stock supplied from interstate where there is no corresponding legislation. As Herbalife products are sold by direct selling in the home as opposed to the usual distribution chain, proving an offence is virtually impossible. Should a national registration system for therapeutic goods conducted in a manner similar to that which Victoria has operated for 40 years come to pass, the irregularities should be contained at the wholesale level.

In the meantime, Herbalife Australasia Pty Ltd has placed its unregistered products in the hands of a consultant with a view to rationalising their formulations to enable them to be registered. The government has regard to the company's intentions in respect of that matter. If the honourable member wishes to pursue the matter further, I suggest he discuss it with the chief health officer, Dr Rouch.

Mr de Fegely raised the matter of nursing home beds in Bacchus Marsh and referred to a specific case of an application being made by certain parties in Bacchus Marsh. If he provides me with details I shall be happy to pursue the matter further.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-In answer to Mr Connard, I am aware of the situation regarding the Yugoslav consulate in Melbourne. Mr Connard, a number of Parliamentary colleagues, and I were guests at a Yugoslav national day function on Friday night. I have not raised any questions about the subject with the Minister for Police and Emergency Services. However, I am prepared to seek advice from the Ethnic Affairs Commission, the police, and the ethnic affairs liaison committee. Also, I am obviously aware-as is Mr Connard-of considerable tensions between communities that have surfaced over the past few weeks. I shall continue to seek and follow advice from the Ethnic Affairs Commission, stressing that most of the good offices that can be brought to bear by the commission or by me relate to contemporary and domestic matters, such as assistance with child-care, assistance concerning recognition of qualifications, assistance with employment, and language services. When dealing with ethnic groups, they are the sorts of subjects I am at pains to stress and on which my department attempts to give assistance.

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-Mr Best raised a question regarding what he sees as large delays in obtaining some land from the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands at Eaglehawk; apparently the borough is desirous of using that land for housing purposes. On the face of his argument and the information provided, I sympathise with him. I shall endeavour to have the matter examined and expedited.

Mr Best also referred to a problem with some industrial land but did not provide details. If he is able to provide full details I shall include that matter at the same time in seeking further information.

Mr Hallam raised a concern on behalf of Dunkeld citizens in terms of augmenting the town's water supply. He elaborated at some length on the history, as he understands it, and the need to have the dam within the national park. I shall examine the matter on the information provided and discuss it with the appropriate Minister.


Mr Baxter raised a question about Ministry of Housing and Construction vacancies in Wodonga. Since he shows concern about the area-and I share that general concern-I am pleased to report that this week I have received statistics showing that the overall vacancy rate of the Ministry is less than 2 per cent, and compares favourably with the private sector. That is a result of steady attention to the matter, and it is encouraging.

If there is an anomaly in the overall performance of the Ministry of Housing and Construction in the Wodonga area, I am willing to pursue it. As honourable members will be aware, when lists of houses believed to be vacant are provided, it often turns out that they are not under the control of the Ministry but are Department of Defence homes. Since Mr Baxter provided me with addresses, which are now incorporated in Hansard, I shall check out each case and provide him with the response.

Mr Guest raised his concern about the funding of the Tenants Union of Victoria Inc. I do not know the details of that funding but my experience of actions of that union, predominantly in areas north of the Yarra River, is that it provides a good service and advocacy role for private tenants. I have found it to be one of the more efficient and effective of the organisations undertaking such tasks. However, I do not know the details he has sought.

The Hon. J. V. C. Guest-But your Ministry funds it, doesn't it?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-Funds are provided partly by the Ministry of Housing and Construction and partly by the Ministry of Consumer Affairs. I am unable to provide exact funding details at present.

Mr Evans raised the case of a constituent who has had difficulty in obtaining archival material for research from records stored at Laverton. On the face of it, it seems a reasonable request for people who are not able to get to these places to undertake their investigations through correspondence. I have no difficulty in raising that issue with the responsible Minister and in obtaining a response as to what avenues are open.

The PRESIDENT -Order! Before putting the motion, I remind honourable members that the Address-in-Reply will be presented to His Excellency the Governor at 11 a.m. tomorrow. Cars will be departing from the front steps of Parliament House at 10.40 a.m. sharp.


The House adjourned at 11.33 p.m.

Questions on Notice 6 December 1988 COUNCIL 661

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

RED LIGHT CAMERAS (Question No. 17)

The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province) asked the Minister for Housing and Construction, for the Minister for Police and Emergency Services:

(a) What is the annual cost of inspecting film and maintaining red light cameras installed at signalled intersections in the metropolitan area?

(b) What revenue has been gained from them in each of the years 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987 and 1988 (to date) after taking operating costs into account?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-The answer supplied by the Minister for Police and Emergency Services is:

The Victoria Police have advised that: (a) Based on 1987 expenditure figures the estimated annual cost ofinspecting film and maintaining

red light cameras installed at signalled intersections in the metropolitan area is $185 553.95. (b) Potential revenue based on the number and value of infringement notices issued from red light

cameras in each year is set out below:

1984-$719416.63 1985-$219 553.49 1986-$521 550.56 1987-$4764 178.30 1988 to 31.10.1988-$3863721.30 (approx.)

Actual revenue received has been estimated by police to be approximately 92 per cent of potential revenue due to non-payment and cancellation of some notices.

PUBLIC ATTITUDES MONITORING PROGRAM (Question No. 30)

The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province) asked the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources, for the Premier:

With respect to the government's Public Attitudes Monitoring Program: (a) What studies or surveys of public attitudes have been conducted in each of the years 1984 to

1987 and in 1988 to date? (b) What studies or surveys are proposed for the remainder of 1988 and for 1989? (c) In relation to each completed study or survey, what is the-(i) title; (ii) purpose; (iii) cost;

(iv) consultant and agency involved; and (v) nature of the work completed by the consultant? (d) Will the documents prepared under the program be made available for public scrutiny; if not,

why?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)The answer supplied by the Premier is:

I am informed that under the Freedom of Information Act a significant amount of detail on the Public Attitudes Monitoring Program has already been provided to members of the Opposition.

Governor's Speech 7 December 1988 COUNCIL 663

Wednesday, 7 December 1988

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. A. J. Hunt) took the chair at 2.3 p.m. and read the prayer.

GOVERNOR'S SPEECH Presentation of Address-in-Reply

The PRESIDENT-I have the honour to report that, accompanied by honourable members, I this day waited upon His Excellency the Governor and presented to him the Address of the Legislative Council, adopted on 16 November 1988, in reply to His Excellency's Speech at the opening of Parliament. His Excellency was pleased to make the following reply: Mr President and

Honourable Members ofthe Legislative Council.

In the name and on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen I thank you for your expressions of loyalty to Our Most Gracious Sovereign contained in the Address you have just presented to me.

I fully rely on your wisdom in deliberating upon the important measures to be brought under your consideration, and I earnestly hope that the results of your labours will be conducive to the advancement and prosperity of this State.

Melbourne 7 December 1988


LOY YANG POWER STATION

J. DAVISMcCAUGHEY Governor of Victoria

The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-In light of the reported comments of the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources on 27 November 1988 indicating that the decision to complete the Loy Yang power station still had to be confirmed by State Cabinet, can the Minister reconcile that statement with the announcement by the Deputy Premier in a media release of 16 September 1988 that "the State government today gave the go-ahead to the $1 billion completion of the Loy Yang power station" and that "under the Cain Labor government construction of the giant Loy Yang B3 and B4 units will start within three years"?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)The simplest and quickest way to respond to Mrs Tehan is the following: on Thursday or Friday this week I shall be making a significant Ministerial statement in this House in response to the report from the Natural Resources and Environment Committee.

The Hon. M. T. Teban-But how does it reconcile with Mr Fordham's statement?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER-Yes, the report requires a response. If the response had been made precisely in the six months in which it was due, it would be six weeks late. I intend to make that response and specifically to comment on the question asked by Mrs Tehan, if she would be patient. I cannot say whether I shall be responding tomorrow or Friday, but on either day I shall be making a response in that regard.


The Hon. R. I. Knowles-Is it right or is it wrong?

The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-I do not deny the two points made by Mrs Tehan on that issue.

MOSQUITO CONTROL PROGRAM The Hon. P. R. HALL (Gippsland Province)-I direct to the attention of the

Minister for Health the fact that recent rains and humid weather have brought the mosquito problem in South Gippsland to a crisis level. The Loch Sport Primary School will close its doors to students tomorrow because of the serious health risk mosquitoes are now posing to tourists and others. Health Department Victoria recognises the seriousness of the problem and today started its program of blood testing local residents to detect incidences of Ross River fever.

Currently the Shire of Rosedale is the only government body spending money on a mosquito control program in the area. This program will cease this week because of lack of funding. Will the Minister for Health now come to the aid of the Shire of Rosedale and local residents and fund the continuation of the program over the next four or five critical weeks?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-My response is in two parts: firstly, members of the public health area in the Statewide Operations Division of Health Department Victoria, led by Dr John Wolstenholme, will discuss the merits of the spraying program because concern has been expressed by public health doctors that a spraying program may not reduce but may continue, if not enhance, the risk of the spread of the disease. We want to examine closely the merits of spraying before responding to the proposal by the shire for additional funds.

POLITICAL DONATIONS The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley Province)-I ask the Minister for Industry,

Technology and Resources, as the representative in this place of the Premier, what action, if any, the government is taking in light of the revelations of the Queensland Fitzgerald inquiry into corruption and maladministration over twenty years by the Queensland National Party government?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)Honourable members would know that currently no Victorian law requires candidates or political parties to disclose donations received in this State. Some honourable members will recall that in 1984 the government introduced legislation modelled on the electoral donation disclosure provisions of Commonwealth legislation, but that Bill was defeated by the combined vote of the Liberal and National parties.

The Hon. Haddon Storey-It didn't come on for debate.

The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain-You are misleading the House.

The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-That Bill would have provided for public disclosure.

The PRESIDENT-Order! The stage has been reached where it is impossible to hear the Minister's answer. I ask the House to come to order and to hear the Minister.

The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-The Bill would have provided for the public disclosure of the sources of funding of both candidates and political parties, and it would have prevented the possibility of individuals receiving political favours in return for secret donations.


Mr Kennedy has asked a topical question. There would not be one honourable member-or, indeed, many members of the public-who are not aware of the Fitzgerald inquiry and what it has uncovered. Because there is no legislation governing the disclosure and source of political donations, it is not possible to guarantee that, for instance, funds paid to the Queensland National Party have not been used by the Victorian National Party in recent State elections. It is entirely possible for that to occur because Victoria has no legislation to deal with this issue.

Mr Kennedy asked what action the government will take, and I have outlined the steps that the government has already taken to deal with the matter. It is appropriate for honourable members to give renewed consideration to the issue and in due course to introduce legislation to give Parliament control over the matter. I thank Mr Kennedy for his question.

LIQUOR LICENSING COMMISSION BROCHURE The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-I direct to the attention

of the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources a brochure published by the Liquor Licensing Commission entitled Initiatives to Overcome Alcohol Misuse and Abuse. Thirty thousand such brochures were printed at a cost of $26 780 as part of a kit. The pamphlet states:

A coordinating council has been established to advise the government on all matters relating to the abuse of alcohol in Victoria, including priorities for research and education, trends in alcohol abuse and recommending specific government action.

The council includes representatives from the Ministry oflndustry, Technology and Resources ... The council's highest priority is the problem of underage drinking.

Can the Minister explain the wide circulation of this piece of misinformation over a period of at least four months, because at present a coordinating committee does not exist?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I am happy to respond to Mrs Varty's question, althou~ I indicate that she is wrong. Under the Liquor Control Act a coordinating councIl is to be set up to advise me about the problems of liquor abuse and on other matters referred to the council by me.

The Hon. Haddon Storey-Where is she wrong?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER-She is wrong in this regard: I have taken the action that she is asking about! Mrs Varty is wrong to say that no action has been taken. The council will have eighteen members and will represent all groups that have an interest in liquor control.

The Hon. Haddon Storey-When?

The Hon. E. H. W ALKER-Mr President, I would appreciate a little protection!

The PRESIDENT -Order! The Minister has asked for some protection, and I shall give it to him.

The Hon. E. H. WALKER-Since the election, I have proceeded to finalise all the appointments, with the exception of the chairperson, which is a most important appointment. In the next day or two I hope to finalise the appointment ofa significant individual in the community to chair that coordinating council. Subject to the finalisation of that position, the appointments to the council are clear cut; and I shall be in a position to announce the membership of the council before Parliament rises. I


point out to Mrs Varty that I hope to announce the appointments in the next few days, particularly the appointment to the important role of chairperson.

The Hon. Haddon Storey-Where is she wrong? The Hon. E. H. WALKER-Mrs Varty is wrong to suggest that no action has been

taken. Since I have been the responsible Minister I have moved quickly to make those appointments. I agree with Mrs Varty when she says that the council IS an important one. My predecessor advertised the government's intention to make those appointments, and I have moved quickly to make them. I hope the names of the members of the council will be available within the next two days.

NURSING HOME BEDS The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province)-The Minister for Health

will be aware of the admission by the Federal Minister for Community Services and Health that there is an imbalance in the number of nursing home beds among various States of Australia. Victoria has the lowest number of nursing home beds per head of population. Will the Minister inform the House whether any discussion has taken place between the Commonwealth and the State government with a view to redressing this imbalance?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-Honourable members will be aware from previous statements in the House and from past comments that Victoria has fewer nursing home beds per head of population than any other State. It is also true that the people who occupy nursing home beds are people who require extensive nursing care. The cost of nursing home beds per nursing home patient in Victoria is higher per head than in other States of Australia. Victoria has more nursing home beds per head of population than many other countries, including Great Britain.

The Minister for Ethnic Affairs, the Minister responsible for the a~ed, made representations to the Federal government and indicated that the emphasIs Victoria wanted in programs for the elderly was on programs that enhanced the opportunities of people, particularly older people, to live independent lives with dignity in the community in their own homes for as long as possible. The government wants effective geriatric assessment teams to ensure that if people require some other form of accommodation they are appropriately placed in hostel beds or nursing home beds. To that end the government wants the Commonwealth government to agree to the transfer and transformation of acute public hospital beds to nursing home beds or hostel beds, where appropriate, as well as bush nursing home beds, and those steps are proceeding.

The government did not indicate at any time that the major thrust of its policy was to have the same number of nursing home beds as other States, because it is clear that, in the past, people have been placed inappropriately in nursing home beds when their requirements were support services to enable them to stay in their own homes.

The benefit of geriatric assessment teams is in ensuring that people are appropriately accommodated. That does not mean that in parts of the State we do not require nursing home beds. If Mr Wright has a particular case in Mildura or some other part of his province to which he wants to direct attention, I shall be happy to hear from him.

BACCHUS MARSH AND DISTRICT WAR MEMORIAL HOSPITAL The Hon. D. E. HENSHA W (Geelong Province)-I ask the Minister for Health to

advise the House what steps the government has taken to improve the facilities and services at the Bacchus Marsh and District War Memorial Hospital.


The Hon~ D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-I state at the outset that the response to this question is not a formal response to the matters raised by Mr de Fegely about nursing home bed accommodation, which is a separate and distinct issue.

The Bacchus Marsh and District War Memorial Hospital is a fairly small hospital which over the years has developed a fine reputation for the services it provides to the local community through its 39 acute beds and 20 nursing home beds. However, it is accepted that some areas of the hospital, particularly the casualty department, need to be improved. It is also accepted that the hospital needs to develop separate facilities for children, because it is now central to a major growth corridor which is expanding rapidly.

I am pleased today to announce that I have approved capital works funding totalling $250 000 for a series of projects at the hospital that will address both these needs. The present makeshift casualty area will be upgraded and relocated in a more accessible part of the building, and a new ambulance and public entry will be built. The hospital, with the assistance of the local Lions club, has already constructed a helicopter landing area. This will provide an effective and convenient link with Melbourne casualty services and I congratulate the hospital, the Lions club and the local community for their initiative.

In addition to the improvements to casualty, the general wards and other work areas near the operating theatre will also be upgraded. This part of the project will include a post-operative recovery room. Further to these improvements the hospital will also benefit from the establishment of a separate children's ward. At present there is no distinct area within the hospital for the treatment of children. This new project will see the development of such a ward, housing approximately six beds. I am pleased that these projects can commence forthwith.

ROYAL VICTORIAN EYE AND EAR HOSPITAL The Hon. B. A. E. SKEGGS (Templestowe Province)-I also direct my question to

the Minister for Health and I ask: in view of the long and distinguished service of Mr lan Beaurepaire as President of the Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital, is the Minister able to justify to the House his failure to reappoint Mr Beaurepaire to this important position?

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Health)-It is correct that Mr Beaurepaire served for some· 22 to 24 years on the board of the Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital and served as presIdent for six of those years. After careful consideration and discussion with the faculty of medicine at the University of Melbourne and with St Vincent's Hospital, the view was reached that for the eye and ear hospital to prosper in the future in the provision of, among other services, ophthalmology, it is necessary to have closer links with teaching hospitals. One of the major reasons is that current technology dictates that 80 per cent of ophthalmology should be provided by way of day surgery. In recent years only approximately 30 per cent of people seeking ophthalmological treatment were being treated at the eye and ear hospital by way of day surgery.

To that end, the government has proposed to appoint Mr Jack Kennedy, the Chairman of the Surgery Division at St Vincent's Hospital, Professor Jack Martin, the Professor of Medicine at St Vincent's Hospital and the University of Melbourne, and the Reverend Alan Nichols, the Archdeacon of the Melbourne Anglican Archdiocese,


who has a strong commitment to social planning issues. The government has reappointed Ms Rosario, who is known to most honourable members, and Mrs Hansen.

The government has taken note of the fact that the Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital has not been meeting its 1988-89 targets. The figures for the year to October show that, in terms of throughput, the hospital is 700 patients below the expected figures. The day surgery was funded to treat an additional 2600 patients a year but, to date, surgery facilities have not been fully utilised. Current utilisation is only 60 per cent of available sessions. The tunnel built beneath Victoria Parade connecting St Vincent's Hospital and the eye and ear hospital has not been put to its best possible use.

The appointments that have been made will further enhance the capacity to develop links between St Vincent's Hospital and the Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital. Moreover, our capacity to recruit a first-class professor to fill the chair of ophthalmology either from within the State or interstate, or from overseas, will be enhanced only if the community and the medical profession can be shown that steps have been taken to build close links between the eye and ear hospital, St Vincent's Hospital and the faculty of medicine at the University of Melbourne.

I thank Mr Beaurepaire for his services in the past; future prospects of the Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital will be best served by the steps the government has taken.

PROPOSED MUSEUM OF VICTORIA The Hon. JEAN McLEAN (Boronia Province)-In light of the great deal of interest

being shown in the community, will the Minister responsible for major projects inform the House about the progress with the development of the new Museum of Victoria on the south bank of the Yarra River?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I am pleased to inform honourable members t)(at the Victorian Government Major Projects Unit has advertised in major metropolitan newspapers seeking the services of an architect or architectural firm to desitn a world-ranking museum in Victoria.

Because there was some debate last night in the House on the State Library and because the museum was mentioned I advise that the architect previously chosen to work jointly on the museum and the State Library of Victoria, Mr Ken Woolley, is to continue his role as architect for the library. He is doing good work. With the separation of the two projects, the government is now seeking an architectural firm to take over the job of the museum. The government is looking to appoint a primary design consultant with a proven track record of creating innovative designs.

Honourable members will be aware that the government has decided to build the museum facility in the Southbank area. Much work has already taken place on the preparation of the brief. Site work is now being done and the project will involve some rearrangement of the roads in the area opposite the World Trade Centre. It is an exciting project and design. As indicated by interjection last evening, it is anticipated that letting of tenders and construction will be completed in a four-year period.

Some 15 million exhibits are available in the museum, of which only 1 per cent at anyone time can be exhibited because of the inadequate facilities at present. The sooner we have a good facility the better. The new museum will be connected with the science museum which has already been developed at the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works old pumping station further down the Yarra River. The two museums


will be connected by boat, which is an interesting concept. One will pay an entry fee to the museum and it will be possible to take a boat ride to the other complex.

Considerable work in technical investigation and brief writing has already been carried out on the new museum to prepare the way for engaging architects. The design will include an Omnimax theatre, which is a new concept of presentation which the government hopes to secure for the museum site. I hope to make an announcement shortly on the exciting theatre concept.

The new museum promises to be a real landmark for Victoria. It is important that capable and inspired architects be appointed in the first instance and the advertisements have already been published.

PORT MELBOURNE BAYSIDE DEVELOPMENT

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources, in his capacity as Minister responsible for major projects, the $600 million Port Melbourne Bayside Development project. Have any independent studies been undertaken of the volume of road traffic that will be generated by this project and the impact of that traffic on the adjoining house owners? If so, will he make those studies available to me before debate on the Bill proceeds later this week?

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)The short answers are, "Yes" and "Yes". Independent traffic studies have been carried out. From memory, I believe three separate studies have been undertaken to measure the volume of traffic that might be generated by the proposed project. I know the Port Melbourne City Council undertook some work. I shall be pleased to make available to Mr Chamberlain the most recent detailed work.

The effect of the presumed traffic load on local residents and local roads is important and it has been understood between the government and the Port Melbourne City Council that what was originally called a boulevard and later called a limited road access will not be built. I have answered questions from Mr Macey on that issue. The studies detail how the local road network will handle that road traffic, and I am happy to make that information available.

TIMBER INDUSTRY

The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-I address my question to the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources. I refer to the document published by the government last year, East Gippsland, a bright future, and released on 11 November, in which the Premier promised a major pulp mill development in East Gippsland. Following a series of questions and an answer given to me on 23 November, the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources said:

It will take some years to finalise the matter of when construction might commence.

Is it a fact that it will not be conservation, environmental, and economic issues but rather government procrastination which will sink the project and make the future less bright for East Gippsland?


The PRESIDENT-Order! The question is one that does not comply with the guidelines re-issued as recently as yesterday.

STONEWORK RESTORATION PROGRAM The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne North Province)-Can the Minister for Housing

and Construction explain to the House the success of the stonework restoration program instituted by the Historic Buildings Branch of the Ministry of Housing and Construction?

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-As honourable members will know, the Ministry of Housing and Construction has an Historic Buildings Branch, which undertakes stonework restoration as well as providing advice on the restoration of historic buildings. The branch provides hands-on expertise by people who have been trained in this area and, as a result, skills are being maintained that otherwise would be lost to the community.

The Ministry contains a unit of eight stonemasons with three apprentices to ensure that those skills are maintained. Also those stonemasons include seven stone carvers who have a hi~ly specialised skill, one that is not attained easily in any other area. The combinatIon of the advisory service and the follow-up with direct work is an exceptional situation. This type of work is being carried out on the old Treasury building and the State Library as well as in the restoration of the Supreme Court building.

This work will become increasingly important in Melbourne because of the tragic effect that pollution will inevitably have on old buildings. It is expensive and technically demanding for all authorities, whether they be Commonwealth, State, or local government authorities, to preserve our heritage of historic buildings. However, the government will continue to maintain the advisory component and the technical capacity of the Historic Buildings Branch, and it will also maintain the direct handson experience and the training of apprentices in that area.

RETIREMENT VILLAGES The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I ask the Minister for

Ethnic Affairs in her shadowy responsibility for the aged about the rating of retirement villages. Currently, some private retirement villages are rated as residential properties and others are rated as commercial properties with the residents paying correspondingly higher rates. Will the Minister convene a meeting with the Attorney-General, who has responsibility for the Retirement Villages Act, and the Minister for Local Government, to consider whether some appropriate action can be taken to resolve the difference in the treatment of various retirement villages with a view to alleviating this burden on their residents?

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I have referred to retirement villages on an earlier occasion regarding some cross-portfolio responsibility. Other Ministers may need to be involved in such a meeting. I answer in the affirmative to the convening of such a meeting.

PARENT PARTICIPATION IN SCHOOL COUNCILS The Hon. LICIA KOKOCINSKI (Melbourne West Province)-Will the Minister

for Ethnic Affairs inform the House about the progress of a study undertaken by the Ethnic Affairs Commission into parent participation in school councils?

Answer to Question without Notice 7 December 1988 COUNCIL 671

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I thank Ms Kokocinski for her question and her general interest in this topic. For several months the Ethnic Affairs Commission has been conducting a study of parent participation in schools and school councils because it has been acknowledged for some time that people of non-English speaking backgrounds incur particular problems in their participation and representation on school councils, committees and other bodies, with the result that their input is diminished.

Even at this stage, the study certainly demonstrates-90 submissions have been received from parents coming from non-English speaking backgrounds-that there is a very clear desire of parents to participate in school processes but th~y are encountering, as one might expect, a number of obstacles because of insufficient knowledge of English and, I suppose, on the part of the school system, an insufficient amount of translated material. That is despite the fact that steps have been taken to provide a compendium of school notes in several languages and towards a number of other initiatives.

The study certainly shows a parental wish to participate and demonstrates that special initiatives and measures need to be taken when there are changes in the education system. With that in mind, the Ethnic Affairs Commission will early next year sponsor a day workshop about the Victorian certificate of education, which is a fairly major change in secondary school education, for parents from non-English speaking backgrounds. That is a very difficult area to understand for people who have perhaps not gone through the Australian school system themselves. There is a little more consultation to be done on the report. It is very nearly complete, and I shall be happy to speak with Ms Kokocinski or perhaps report to the House when it is complete with recommendations.

ANSWER TO QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-By leave, I should like to

raise a matter that relates to an answer to a question given by the Leader of the House about disclosure of electoral donations. The Minister said that the government produced a Bill on that subject and that that Bill was defeated by the Liberal and National parties. I should like to take the House through the Minutes of the Proceedings for 1 November 1984. At page 609--

The Hon. D. R. White-Leave is refused.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province) (By leave)-I desire to make

a personal explanation. I am not suggestin~ that the Leader of the House deliberately misled the House; I am saying that, by implication, he is saying to honourable members of this House--

The Hon. D. R. White-What is your personal explanation?

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-The personal explanation is this.

The Hon. D. R. White-That is not to do with you.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-It is. The Leader of the House said that every member of the Liberal and National parties voted against the Bill.

The Hon. E. H. Walker-I did not say that. I said "the combined vote of the Liberal and National parties".

672 COUNCIL 7 December 1988 Commissioner for the Environment

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-The Leader of the House said that the Bill was defeated.

The Hon. E. H. Walker-In this Parliament.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN-It was not. The Minutes of the Proceedin~s of this House for 1 November 1984 show that the Bill was referred to a Select CommIttee of this House; that motion was carried. The Bill was not defeated. What occurred was that, with the proroguing of Parliament, the Select Committee did not get into gear. Therefore, it was incorrect for the Leader of the House to say that the Bill was defeated by the combined vote of the Liberal and National parties.

COMMISSIONER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-By leave,

I move: That there be laid before this House a copy of the report of the Office of the Commissioner for the

Environment for the year 1987-88.


The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction) presented the report in compliance with the foregoing order.


On the motion of the Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province), it was ordered that the report be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.


laid on the table by the Clerk: Chiropractors and Osteopaths Registration Board-Report and financial statement for the year 1987.

Exhibition Trustees-Minister's advice of 5 December 1988 of further extension of time granted to submit annual report (for 1987-88) and the reasons therefor.

Health Department-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88.

Housing and Construction Ministry-Report and financial statements for the year 1987-88.

Infertility-Report of the Standing Review and Advisory Committee for the year 1987-88.

On the motion of the Hon. HAD DON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the papers tabled by the Clerk be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

MALLEE NATIONAL PARKS SYSTEM The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province)-I move: That this House rejects the Land Conservation Council proposals for further major extensions of the

national parks system in the Mallee.

The motion deals with proposed recommendations of the Land Conservation Council. It is intended to give a clear signal to the Land Conservation Council and to the government of how Parliament will deal with the final recommendations if they come into this House and are published in a similar form.

Mallee National Parks System 7 December 1988 COUNCIL 673

The notice of motion has appeared on the Notice Paper for six weeks now to give interested honourable members time to consider the proposal of the Land Conservation Council, study the documents and other relevant evidence, and make a decision. The report involves a number of recommendations, the majority of which deal with small parcels of land in the Mallee. In addition, the Land Conservation Council purports to have a panacea for almost everything included within its recommendations from river degradation on page 64 to salinity on page 85. On page 89 it discusses pipelining the Wimmera's water, and water in the Wimmera and Murray rivers. It even refers to the proposed Alpine National Park, which, as the House will be aware, is some considerable distance from the Mallee area.

The key proposals are to increase the national parks area in the Mallee by more than 745000 hectares, from the current area of 211 000 hectares to 956000 hectares in total. The National Party is concerned because it appears that the recommendations are all about phasing out grazing from 45 per cent of the proposed parks area, which is currently licensed for grazing. Incidentally, approximately half of the land is currently zoned for that purpose.

It is also intended to stop broom bush cutting. Approximately 956 tonnes of broom bush are cut each year in the Mallee. That is a tonne to every 1000 hectares. It is also intended as part of the recommendations to phase out apiculture-the keeping of bees. As a substitute the proposal is to develop wilderness areas and to provide public access for all forms of recreation as well as, of course, to protect endangered species.

The report makes a number of sweeping statements. It makes a number of factual errors and a number of assumptions that the new order of management proposed will better protect flora and fauna.

Those statements and assumptions are challenged by many people, including people with experience in the Mallee, the Victorian Farmers Federation and, indeed, the National Party. Clearly, in a manner that challenges its objectivity, the report and recommendations have one eye on the government's conservation strategy and the other on government policy.

Surely the Land Conservation Council should make recommendations based on fact, inquiries, and evidence placed before it rather than being driven by government philosophy in the way this report and one or two previous reports from the same organisation have been driven.

The recommendation also presents the interesting view that as New South Wales, especially, and South Australia have now degraded their arid grasslands to the extent that they are no longer viable, Victorian land should be used to make up for that error and, in fact, that Victoria should assume responsibility for the rest of Australia in the conservation of its arid grassland areas.

Support for national parks was clearly set out in National Party policy for both the 1985 and 1988 elections. However, the National Party supports national parks as a special category. If the criteria for national parks are watered down, the concept of and public respect for national parks are also watered down. I point out that already 8 per cent of the total area of Victoria is included in national and State parks and approximately 20 per cent of the total area of public land is included in national and State park systems, wilderness areas and other close conservation categories.

If this one recommendation is to be carried forward by proposed legislation in this House, that 8 per cent of the total area of land will increase to 11 per cent; the 20 per cent of public land included in the national and State park systems will increase to almost 30 per cent; and a substantial number of other proposals on the drawing board in the Land Conservation Council for an Alpine National Park and a report and

674 COUNCIL 7 December 1988 Mallee National Parks System

recommendations for a park in central Victoria-north east of Melbourne and running through to the Mansfield area-will substantially increase that area further. One might question whether the 37 per cent of this State which is public land can be tied up totally for conservation needs and for no other purpose.

It is also relevant, that of the 45 per cent of the Mallee area proposed under the recommendations of the Land Conservation Council to be phased out as licensed grazing country, a substantial proportion is classified on the map at page 48 of the report as unused grazing areas. Even the report echoes and understands that less than one-fifth of the area concerned is used for grazing purposes. I have already said that a small amount of broom bush is cut in the proposed park, considering the area in question, and the amount of apiculture is at a low level. A more realistic figure for current licensed grazing country would be 20 per cent.

The National Party refutes the suggestion that controlled grazing and its accompanying good management of rabbits and noxious weeds and many other issues that are of value to the conservation of the area are environmentally damaging. In fact, there is substantial evidence to suggest that that statement is not correct.

The submission by the Victorian Farmers Federation to the Land Conservation Council in November 1988 contains many examples of the clear advantages to conservation that some form of economic activity in the park can have, provided that licensees carry out their responsibilities sensibly and responsibly. The VFF says that if the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands, which appears to have been the main accuser of landowners of not carrying out their responsibilities properly, had carried out its responsibilities of supervision and so on, it could not have made that charge. Indeed, the federation, in its submission to the Land Conservation Council, states that in its view very few-at the most, two of some twenty licensees in the area-are not carrying out their responsibilities fully and well.

Perhaps the Victorian Farmers Federation summarises the position rather well when it states, at page 8 of its submission:

Good government in Victoria will not be well served by the imposition of the views of the minority who do not live in the area, on the lives and livelihoods of hundreds of people who do live in the area.

Perhaps the world would be a better place if people did not seek to tell others what they should do in their backyards!

The key proposals include increasing national parks in the Mallee by 745000 hectares. As I earlier stated, locking up huge areas is not necessarily good conservation. For example, a representative of the Mildura Land Protection Regional Advisory Committee wrote to the former Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, Ms Kirner, on 28 April 1988 on the issue of the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park, referring to the degree of damage being done to that park by kangaroos. That area has been a national park since approximately 1978. There are no sheep, there is no economic activity and very little control of vermin and noxious weeds is exercised. Large numbers of kangaroos abound.

At page 2, the author of the letter, Mr Alan Scown states: Vegetation destruction in all previous soil eroded sand dune areas sees 25 years work and planning

virtually destroyed by kangaroo over grazing. Regeneration of many rare flora species will most likely never be possible again. The sand dunes areas, no longer stable, are now subject to severe erosion.

He refers to the disruption of native pine regeneration and to the need-as was well publicised about three years ago-for a sensible kangaroo culling program. He further states:

It is evident that no notice has been taken of regional staff regarding kangaroo control.


I also refer to the M onash Review of August 1988 which supports statements made by Mr Scown in his letter to the Minister. Some interesting research has been conducted into the way in which native animals graze, and about their diets; conclusions were drawn from a study of the teeth of native animals.

Mr Gordon Sanson from Monash University has constructed a unique picture of the nutrition of kangaroos in the area. He has made suggestions on how to manage the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park in the Mallee. He studied kangaroo digestion by using barium meals and states:

When the level of the preferred diet of grasses falls below 400 kilograms a hectare, the kangaroos switch to other plants including regenerating plants and trees.

Included in the report is a photograph ofajaw ofa kangaroo from the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park area; that is compared with a photograph of a grey kangaroo of about the same age from Western Australia. The ingestion of food by kangaroos in the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park has been of grass and is proof of statements made by Mr Sanson that the kangaroo is now moving from grass to regenerating plants. The well-known English botanist-referred to as the bionic or the botanic man-Dr David Bellamy--

The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Remind us about the new tree he found in Gippsland.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-Yes, that was a well-known species of tree, a variety of the shining gum.

Dr Bellamy refers to the alpine areas and in the Sunday Press of20 July 1986 states: I'm not as well informed on the matter as I'd like to be but it would be wrong to remove the cattle.

They've been grazing in the high plains for generations and are now a part of the ecostructure. To take them out would do irreparable damage.

That comment was from one of the world's foremost botanists. Some may say that he was not speaking about the Mallee, but the point made by Dr Bellamy did not concern so much the issue of the alpine areas-because he did state that he was not as informed on the matter as he would like to have been-but the ~eneral principle, which is so important and easy to misunderstand, that by substantIally changing the regime one can cause more damage than is sought to be corrected. That is most relevant in any consideration of the Mallee area.

A noted Mallee archaeologist, Dr Anne Ross, in the submission of the Victorian Farmers Federation states at page 11 in reference to archaeological sites:

Sites on Pine Plains and Glencoe properties have been preserved in good condition because of the interests of families occupying these leases, and their cooperation with researchers.

She further states: The best way to ensure their protection is to ensure that they are not visited.

The recommendation from the Land Conservation Council primarily concerns tourists, the development of tourism and access by people who wish to share natural experiences. Replace the graziers who, Dr Ross states, have been protecting the archaeological sites and substitute visitors for them, and less care may be taken.

I challenge a number of sweeping statements in the report. I shall examine several of the factual errors occurring therein but it is not possible to deal with the entire contents of the 107 pages of the report.

The first and perhaps most serious error occurs at pages 7 and 8, which refer to the Forest Cover Changes in Victoria 1972-1987, as published by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands. The document was actually produced by the

676 COUNCIL 7 December 1988 M allee National Parks System

Ecological Policy and Resource Assessment Branch, Remote Sensing Group. The Land Conservation Council report refers to it, and states:

246 000 hectares of ... native forest throughout Victcria has been cleared.

The LCC report then concludes that the loss of forest cover 0I?- freehold land am~n~nts to 11 000 hectares a year. That is the document referred to In the report and It IS a document of some persuasive force and authority. On an unnamed page of the report under the heading "Forest cleared since 1972" it states:

Over the period 1972 to 1987 almost 250 000 hectares of forest was cleared.

The disclosure is made in other parts of the document that between 1870 and 1980 the amount of forest cover in Victoria was reduced from 90 per cent to approximately 35 per cent. I have studied the maps included in the front of the document and I have seen similar maps published on the front page of the Age. I have also had similar maps handed to me on other occasions which illustrate in graphic form the amount of forest cover that existed in Victoria in 1887.

I have studied with considerable interest the map which showed the north-eastern region of Victoria where my family has been resident since 1853. The area where my family has farmed since then has been coloured black on the map and appears to indicate that the entire area was regarded as forested in 1887.

I have reports which indicate that in the 1860s a large number of dairies were in the area, including one which milked 200 cows. My family ran substantial numbers of grazing livestock in the area and I have a valuer's report of the early 1880s stating that for a number of years wheat, oats and barley were grown on our property. I am aware from a history of the region that substantial agriculture, horticulture and grazing took place throughout the district.

But this map indicates that they are forested areas. I suspect not that the cartographers of the 1880s and 1890s were incorrect but that since then the definition of "forested" has changed. The National Party agrees there is a need to replace old trees on farmland with regenerated young trees. That has been an important policy of the National Party since I have been a member of Parliament. there is no argument about that. The maps in the front part of this publication do not compare like with like.

The Hon. W. R. Baxter-And they are misleading.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-Yes. People who rely on them will come to incomplete conclusions. The Land Conservation Council is relying on those conclusions to confirm its belief that there has been a huge clearing of farmland in Victoria. It would be ridiculous to deny that substantial areas of land have been cleared. The agricultural pursuits of farmers have meant that land has been cleared over the years, but that does not mean that land has been cleared irresponsibly or that proper action has not been taken.

The document claims that substantial amounts of private land have been cleared; an average 11 000 hectares a year in the 1972-87 period. If substantial land clearing on private land occurred in that period, I suggest that most of it would have taken place prior to or around 1972. From inquiries I have made of people living in the areas, I have ascertained that substantial areas of land in the Western District and lower Mallee were cleared in the past but there has been little clearing of land in recent years. So, evidence on the ground suggests that statements put forward by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands, at least for the latter period under consideration, are not correct. If any clearing occurred, it was some time ago and has almost ceased. As it is no longer a problem, it is inappropriate to use it as a reason.


The department is not dealing with the current position but with a past practice that has almost ceased.

Another interesting statement in the document is that cleared areas of public land and plantations, particularly of pine trees, are almost balanced, and in fact I believe the area of of forest on public land is slowly increasing. It goes on to say:

The bulk of the remaining 58 per cent is made up of land that was cleared and planted to pines which do not yet appear as established forest on satellite images.

I ask honourable members to ponder that statement. Much of the private land clearing currently occurring in Victoria is of degenerate forest that is being replaced by pine forests. I am sure the government, with its current problems in implemenhng its legislative agreements with pine mills to provide a certain amount of timber, will welcome the development of private pine plantations. I suggest that many of those private plantations where clearing has taken place will not show up in early years as . pine plantations; they will appear as cleared land. The document states that they do not show up on satellite images. Again I suggest that the document needs to be read with a great deal of circumspection, although it is one of the documents on which the council bases its recommendations.

If the picture that I have painted is correct, the report is at best distorted and at worst wrong. If that is so-and I believe I have produced substantial evidence to confirm it-many of the arguments produced by conservation interests are destroyed. Page 30 of the Land Conservation Council review of the Mallee area states:

Wild species are often used to genetically strengthen inbred races of domestic plants and animals ...

As this is advanced as a reason why the substantial increases in parks in the Mallee should take place, I ask: which Mallee flora and fauna are domesticated? Is it the kangaroo? I recognise that bush tucker is the flavour of the month at present-is it intended to use kangaroo meat as bush tucker for human consumption? Is it intended that such an industry be kept sound and viable by strengthening the genes of domesticated kangaroos to overcome any weakness? Page 33 of the report states:

... some species have become extinct.

Perhaps that is true, but nowhere in that report could I find that a species in the Mallee was extinct. The report does not suggest any such species. It makes a statement but does not back it up with facts. It is clear that a few species have become extinct in Victoria as a result of white settlement. All honourable members and Victorians regret that that has occurred. Perhaps the species would have become extinct anyway. I recognise that some species have had their numbers reduced and require protection. But I make the clear distinction that the report does not say anything about a specific species becoming extinct.

I t does not mention the Eltham copper butterfly, which about two years ago was allegedly rediscovered on a development block of land at Eltham after not having been seen for many years and being regarded as extinct. I made some inquiries and discovered that at least eight separate sites at Kiata in the lower Mallee had existing populations of the Eltham copper butterfly and that these had been monitored since 1932. As a result of a question asked in this House of the former Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, now the Minister for Education, honourable members learned that the butterfly was also known at another location near Kerang. It is clear that species regarded as extinct may well exist in other locations.

The report also states: Purchase of cleared freehold for road construction purposes should be considered as an option to avoid

clearing stands of native vegetation.


I understand that these days there is a desire to maintain what is termed vestigial vegetation on the edges of roads. I assume the authors of this report were serious when they suggested that, instead of improving a road with trees alongside it or having to clear a few of those trees, consideration should be given to purchasing the freehold land, regardless of the cost. It was suggested that that should be done, but that completely ignores the fact that in most cases ~avel would be required and the government has imposed restrictions on obtainIng gravel for such purposes. The report states:

Royalties for materials extracted from public land must be more closely related to market value of the materials.

I point out that these are public lands and public roads, but the report does not mention public roads. It does not suggest that there will be a substantial increase in the cost to local shires because they will receive no assistance from Federal or government sources to rebuild or relocate these roads, with the accompanying cost for gravel and so on. It is these sorts of inaccuracies that make the document seem at best to be impractical.

Further on the report refers to the water regime. It confirms that water flows in the Wimmera River, the Loddon River and the River Murray are an important part of the ecology of the area. Those water regimes consist of rivers, lakes and billabongs. I am not sure whether this has anything to do with the Mallee area bein~ declared a park. It has significance when one considers that it is the irrigation regIme and the release· of water from places such as Eildon, Dartmouth dam, Lake Hume and some of the smaller rivers throughout the State, and whether the agricultural and irrigation industries in Victoria, New South Wales, and South Australia will continue to have adequate water so that they can prosper. Is the Land Conservation Council seeking to control the irrigation system that affects river flows?

Is the council venturing into areas into which it should not venture at this time and over which it has no control, and is it making recommendations that do not fall within its proper area of responsibility? I suggest that the council is following that course to try to make a very thin case look a little better.

I refer to fire suppression. No honourable member could overestimate the importance of the effects of fire on the Australian ecology, particularly in the south-eastern corner of the country. Section 62 (2) of the Forests Act provides that fires in every State forest and national park must be supressed. At present responsibility for fire control in the Mallee area rests with the Country Fire Authority and the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands. If no leases are granted in the area that is proposed to be added to the national parks system, no protection will be afforded by the Country Fire Authority, which will lead to a substantial increase in the cost of protecting the area. With the incorporation of the area into the national parks system there will be a substantial increase in vegetation with a resultant increase in the possibility of fires starting and of the likelihood of fires being more difficult to put out or control.

The need to control fires is referred to with some urgency throughout the report of the Land Conservation Council. If the recommendations of the council's report are adopted, the people who provide the best, most efficient, and cheapest fire protection services will be removed from the area. That represents just one of the down sides of the proposed removal of the grazing licences from the 20 per cent or so of the area that is currently being grazed.

In its submission to the Land Conservation Council, the Victorian Farmers Federation at page 11 states:

It is understood that local farmers have considered the possibility of refusing to attend fires in any of the new and expanded national parks.


It may be said that that is something of a dog-in-the-manger statement, and that the farmers are taking their bat and ball and going home. They are not; they are being told to go home. The volunteer members of the Country Fire Authority will be too far away to work with the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands and provide their labour and expertise to assist in fire control. A substantial additional cost will be incurred in controlling fires, just because the CFA volunteers will not be close by.

The Land Conservation Council builds an emotional picture throughout the report. There is constant reference to fauna which is "known to inhabit the area". On page 26, the following statement appears:

A pair of bush thick-knee is known to reside in the area.

On a number of occasions I have pointed out to honourable members, the press, and various Ministers that koalas are known to cross the Hume Freeway and also to leave their bones on the side of the Hume Freeway. Nobody cares about that and nothing has been done about it. Nobody has done anything about the kangaroos and wallabies that I see lying by the side of the Hume Freeway as I travel to and from Melbourne. Yet part of the Land Conservation Council's report refers to "a pair of bush thickknee" as being "known to reside in the area"! As I said, it is an emotional phrase being used to build up an emotional picture. There are a number of references to "bush thick-knee" in other areas. The country cannot be run on emotion, particularly when there is substantial evidence to suggest that bad decisions are taken in attempting to achieve the objectives people are seeking to achieve, which I share.

As is pointed out several times in the report, any area can be labelled "unique" by associating a small number of flora and fauna with it; considering its aspect, whether north, south, east or west; and referring to whether it is sandy, clay or riverine soil, and the direction in which the sand-hills lie.

If one takes a small number from a large enough pool of factors one has a unique situation. As an exercise, I suggest that honourable members list 45 factors relating to flora and fauna; the north, south, east or west aspect; soil type; the way the sandhills run; an outcrop of rocks; and whether a site has some historical significance. There are far more factors than 45 listed in the report. Honourable members should, as part of the exercise I propose, compile a list of six factors for one area, with three or four relating to fauna, one to the soil type, and perhaps a reference to a rocky outcrop. Honourable members will find that the area is unique.

If anyone does not believe me, I suggest that he or she wander down the street this afternoon to the newsagent near the corner of Exhibition and Bourke streets. He or she should pick out a Tattslotto card, which has 45 numbers on it. One can see if the choice of six does not create a situation that is unique by testing whether the numbers come out tonight in the Tattslotto draw. It is an indication of how good a definition the word "unique" can be!

The Victorian Farmers Federation cites many examples and provides photographs of regeneration. There is reference to regeneration occurring on land currently leased. I assume it is in country areas where land-holders take good care of the land; I hope that all those who lease land take good care of the land. The Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands has some responsibility to ensure that the land is taken care of.

Photograph 3 in the Victorian Farmers Federation submission shows black box regenerating on rotationally grazed land which is free from rabbits. Photograph 4 is of red gum, which is one of the species constantly referred to in the Land Conservation Council's report. The caption indicates that the location of water points is controlling animals and as a result regeneration is taking place.


Page 18 of the federation's submission states: Kangaroo culling programs ... have been aborted following pressure from strident conservationists.

Mr Mackenzie will recall that when he was the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands there was a problem in th! Hattah-Kulkyne National Park. It was clear that a culling program was necessary because kangaroos were starving and doing considerable damage to the park. Nobody wanted to undertake the culling program and because of pressure from strong conservationists shooting was not allowed. Instead, people went out and tried to herd the kangaroos into different areas. The result was a shambles and brought shame on the people who suggested that method of controlling the damage done by the kangaroos.

The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-They had to be shot afterwards.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-As Mr Mackenzie says, the kangaroos were shot afterwards. It is an example of how well people who make noisy and emotional statements apply their judgment to the management of land!

Page 19 of the Victorian Farmers Federation submission makes some significant statements on the regeneration cycle of plants in the Mallee. Under the heading "Species cycle", it states:

It is becoming increasingly clear that no-one fully understands the regeneration cycle of plants in the Mallee ... A species that appeared to die away some years previously will return in abundance in some future period when the seasons suit that particular plant.

There is a clear cycle of initially sparse germination followed by mass germination, followed by a gradual diminishing of numbers to the point that the plant appears to have died out.

Then the Victorian Farmers Federation makes the following significant comment: This means that any botanical surveys that take "snapshots" over relatively short periods of time will

produce results that are incorrect.

Regeneration of some of those species occurs only after prolonged drought when there is a reduction in the number of native animals. In other words, it has been suggested that management procedures, properly handled, can create the conditions under which a variety of native flora can flourish and regenerate.

Given that already white man has introduced pests such as rabbits, goats, pigs, and cats, which have become feral, it is impossible to return to the conditions of pre-white settlement in Australia. Some management procedures will have to be implemented. The report of the Land Conservation Council refers occasionally to the fact that grazing can be used as a management tool; Professor Bellamy referred to the same for use in alpine areas.

The Hon. B. T. Pullen-Not in this area.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-The principle is relevant to all areas. A major change in management can, of itself, create problems. Those who do not understand that situation need to examine the conditions that apply in the Kosciusko National Park. Wildfires that originated in that park spread to Victoria; this happened despite warnings given by departmental staff in East Gippsland. A firebreak was not made, simply because conservationists disagreed with it. That cost the State $1 million.

The Hon. B. T. Pullen-Kosciusko National Park is an example of a horrific case of overgrazing. Because of the change that has occurred, I wouldn't cite that to help your case.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-The Victorian Farmers Federation points to errors that appeared in the report and recommendations of the Land Conservation Council. At


page 20, the federation refers to the council's comments about grazing exclusion plots. The federation points out-somewhat sorrowfully-that the riverine plains, a significant area referred to in the report, have no grazing exclusion plots. At page 22 the federation refers to a statement by the LCC that saltbush becomes the principal diet in the summer and drier years. The federation states that that is incorrect because "saltbush is more palatable in winter and spring. Hardly regarded as stockfeed in summer because saltbush dries out and sheds its leaves".

The report refers substantially to wilderness surveys. I suggest the LCC should have contacted some of the more responsible representatives of the Victorian Farmers Federation. Regrettably, many self-styled experts give evidence in these matters. Provided they make the right sorts of sympathetic comments, they are frequently unchallenged. I refer honourable members to an important principle that those who give evidence to committees should be subject to questioning in a public forum by experts who are capable of questioning them, if their evidence is to be used to draw up reports and recommendations.

I understand that recently the Federal government introduced such a procedure to be used in future when a decision has to be made between conflicting groups on the use and exploitation of natural resources. The new committee was referred to recently in the newspapers. The process of questioning people who wish to be accepted as experts in their field is excellent and has been part of National Party policy since 1985.

The issue involves a conflict of use. The Murray Sunset Park, which has had other suggested names, is proposed to cover 610 450 hectares-almost 3 per cent of Victoria's total land area. At page 24 of the report, the LCC spells out the recommendations for the uses of the park as being "recreation and education associated with the enjoyment and understanding of natural environments". It mentions dispersed camping. Both are considered reasonable and legitimate uses of the park. Either the use of the park should be exclusive, or tracks and other facilities need to be established to make the park available to those who want to enjoy and understand the natural environment.

For example, search and rescue facilities will need to be put in place in case people get lost or are injured in this area. It is also possible that people visiting the outskirts of the proposed park will introduce cats and dogs. These animals may stray into the park either because they have been lost as pets or they have been left behind because their owners no longer want them. The may have been Christmas presents that grew too big. Also visitors to this area will probably light fires, which can be dangerous because many people do not properly understand the conditions of this rather strange and harsh environment.

Are there really so many tourists? Do they need 610450 hectares of very dry land to provide enjoyment and understanding of natural environments? The State already has the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park; 75 percent of approximately 600 000 hectares is already not inhabited or used for commercial ventures, apart from a little apiculture. This park provides a few tracks for visitors. A park becomes even more exclusive in its use ifit is placed in the wilderness category.

Page 28 of the report referring to wilderness areas states that "users are self-reliant and capable of looking after themselves". Supposedly that is the type of person who will visit that area. How does one judge whether another person is self-reliant and capable of looking after himself? Perhaps the visitors will have to pass a test; that may be a good idea. People visiting a dangerous wilderness area may get lost or have accidents. What will be provided for them? What infrastructure facilities will be put in place? The exclusion of commercial ventures from these parks will make the areas less safe and harder to access.


Should we ignore people who are lost in wilderness areas? I am not sure. The Land Conservation Council put a legal construction on this problem by remaining silent. Earlier I referred to the outbreak of wildfires in these areas. The report contains the following quote:

Wildfires, however caused, must be prevented from threatening life, property and natural resources of the State.

That is not a quote from the Country Fire Authority Act or any other Act; it is a quote from the Land Conservation Council. The National Party agrees with that statement.

However, is not fire part of the natural cycle? Is it not essential for regeneration of certain species of flora, for example, broom bush? At present this species is being cut in areas that probably resulted from regeneration after fires in 1959. Even iffires are a good thing, one can have too much ofa good thing. Given that the nature of the whole country has changed during the past 150 years, preplanning for fire prevention is necessary. In other words, we must eradicate as much as possible those factors that will increase the likelihood of fire.

Natural fires could be advantageous in assisting regeneration or in providing a variety of habitat to suit different flora and fauna, if that is the aim of the proposal. If that is the aim-and it is one with which the National Party will agree-management practices should be upgraded. One wonders why it is proposed to make those national parks tourist destinations, because of the problems that tourists can cause. If the area is as fragile as honourable members are led to believe, it would be sensible to involve land-holders in management practices. Land-holders occupy 20 to 25 per cent of the area, and could be used to control rabbits and weeds, which are severe depredators of the soil. Such management could be a condition of land-holders' leases. Honourable members will note that I use the word "lease" and not the word "licence".

Some honourable members may have read the book Flying Fox and Drifting Sands which was written in the 1950s by Frank Ratcliffe, who was a scientist employed by the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation. He depicted graphically the damage caused by rabbits in the arid parts of Australia in the 1930smore than 50 years ago.

The Mallee lands are fragile. During the debate I am sure some honourable members will refer to the dust cloud that descended on Melbourne in February 1983 at the end of one of the most severe droughts in Australian history. Such dust storms have occurred in the Mallee and the desert country since recorded time. Indeed, Mr Ratcliffe's book refers to such dust storms in the 1930s. They do not occur today with the same frequency--

The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-Not prior to the arrival of white man.

The Hon. D. M. EVANS-Dust storms occurred prior to the arrival of white man; they have always been part of the natural scene.

The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-They have been caused by wrong cultivation methods.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-Mr Mackenzie is wrong, once again. They do not occur because of incorrect cultivation methods, although such cultivation methods can accentuate the problem. Cultivation methods and farming practices in the Mallee have been improved during the past 50 years. The problem does not occur today to the same degree as it did in the 1930s; and that must be understood.

Families such as the O'Sullivan family, who lease land in the proposed Mallee national park area, have lived on that land almost since Europeans settled the land. They love the country; they have lived with it all their lives and understand it. They have had to come to terms with the demands of living in that country, otherwise they


would not have survived. The best teacher is experience, and families such as the O'Sullivan family have come to understand the land. That land which the council seeks to include in national parks has been at least, in part, given its worth by those families. Instead of the government agreeing to the Land Conservation Council's proposals, it could require landowners to assist in maintaining land stability as part of their leases. For example, landowners could be encouraged to fence areas that need protection, to graze rotationally, to control water area points so that wildlife can be controlled and to assist in controlling fires by directly fighting fires and by controlling undergrowth, thus attempting to reduce the severity of fires, their rate of spread and the difficulty with which they are controlled.

As the submission made by the Victorian Farmers Federation states, farmers could be used to assist in locust watches in sparse areas, particularly when locust plagues spread from New South Wales. The Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands should also assist in the implementation of management practices, something which it is not doing adequately at present. Its assistance could provide improved management practices at low cost. Instead of the current annual licence, long-term leases could be allocated, which the Land Conservation Council recommended in 1977.

In its 1977 report, the council made certain recommendations, and as a result substantial areas of national parks were proclaimed. Yet many of the recommendations the council made at that time have not been implemented. For example, long-term licences have not been provided. The VFF report highlights the fact that there has been a 3000 per cent increase in leasing fees payable by one land-holder. If the fees continue to be set at such a high level, the ability of land-holders to carry out certain protection works economically will be reduced. It would be better to keep lease fees down to a reasonable level to encourage better management and more care for the soil.

Victoria does not have the resources to manage more national parks. Such resources are fundamental to the success of any proposals made by the Land Conservation Council, and the importance of those resources is referred to constantly throughout the council's report. Although it has been shown that Victoria does not have those resources, the State does have a resource that is ready, willing and waiting to deal with the problems to which I have referred. If the grantlng of leases is handled properly, landowners can play a part in implementing correct management practices. If there have been faults in management practices, it is the view of the Victorian Farmers Federation, a view with which I agree, that they have occurred because of a lack of control exercised by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands, as well as the irresponsibility of one or two land-holders in the area. If a land-holder does not manage his or her lease responsibly, which could be made a condition of the lease, it would be simple to cancel it.

The Land Conservation Council proposals would lead to an uncertain future, simply to address the emotional outcries made by some conservation groups. Many of the people who wrote to the Land Conservation Council may not have visited the area or, at best, may have only a superficial knowledge of the ecology of the area and the people who work in it. The proposals of the LCC are a response to such emotional outcries, and I have cited many examples of the faulty information on which it has acted. Many of the conclusions reached by the LCC are therefore suspect.

As the submission by the Victorian Farmers Federation states, many representatives of conservation groups have either changed their minds or altered their opinions as a result of travelling through that country with members of the federation. Most honourable members will be acquainted with country people. Although some country people tend to push their views down one's throat, I am sure that representatives from


conservation groups who travelled to the Mallee will have met people who were genuine and courteous and who would have answered their questions honestly and carefully. Because of that experience, representatives of many of the well-known conservation groups have modified their views because they have come to understand--

The Hon. B. T. Pullen-Why are you trying to pre-empt the process then? Why don't you speak to your motion?

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-That is very much in line with my motion. As I said earlier, which the Minister for Housing and Construction will recall had he been listening-although I am sure he was listening most of the time-the report was influenced by the pressure that was brought to bear by conservation groups. I am emphasising that many conservationists have modified their positions. Whether the Minister likes it or not, people who have lived in the area all their lives know the area very well.

If honourable members resard earning an honest living as obscene, and if they ignore the fact that increases In the standard of living and advances in technology in areas such as medicine, space exploration and transportation have occurred because of the fact that 90 per cent of Australians live in cities and urban areas and less than 10 per cent live in rural areas, they have missed the point. If they cannot see the connection between the fact that fewer than 10 per cent of Australians are engaged in agricultural pursuits, even though years ago 70 per cent of the population was engaged in such pursuits, thus allowing 90 per cent of the population to benefit from, and be engaged in, the technological, social and professional advances that have been made, I stress the change in emphasis from agricultural pursuits to technological pursuitsthey will not agree with the motion.

Honourable members should understand that. People are prepared to go into country areas to carry out their profession and provide the food and fibre, the natural and renewable resources on which our community is based. They do that extremely efficiently. They are the people-the few people-who are each providing for an expanding population. If people understand that they will understand that country people often know better than others how to manage these lands. Country people should be treated with knowledge and understanding. If the community wants its standard of living to continue it should be less critical of what takes place beyond metropolitan areas.

F or all those reasons good management should prevail and local advice should be accepted. The government should accept that it is necessary to fire certain areas, to have weed and rabbit control, and to have many other things that are of minor commercial development, but which cover 25 per cent of the area in question.

The government should not destroy country areas with too many tourists. It should recognise that the Land Conservation Council's proposals for further major extensions of the national parks system in the Mallee are a recipe for a small disaster. If the government understands that it will come to terms with the things that I have said and support the motion.

The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province )-One could argue against the motion in one simple sentence: the motion is inappropriate because Mr Evans knows that it is based on the proposed recommendations of the Land Conservation Council.

The Hon. W. R. Baxter-It is open for Parliament to express a view on the proposed recommendations.


The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-Mr Baxter may be right, but the more appropriate course is for Mr Evans, who has done considerable research on this matter, to put his views before the Land Conservation Council so that they can be taken on board and be incorporated in its final recommendations. If Mr Evans's views are not taken on board in the final recommendations of the Land Conservation Council, his concerns should be raised at that stage.

Any person with experience of the Mallee region understands that it is, as Mr Evans correctly pointed out, a fragile part of Victoria. The Mallee region has an interesting but a sad history. Many people struggled to eke out an existence in that area. The people of the Mallee farming community are regarded as the battlers of the Victorian farming community. Settlement of the region began in the early 1860s when sheep farmers began establishing their farms. An Act of Parliament was passed in the 1870s that allowed squatters. as they then were, to take up permanent settlement. Following that, as honourable h~~~l.nbers will know, land development continued and a move developed for closer settlements. Soldi ~r settlements sprang up after the first and second world wars. Gradually the large landholdings were reduced considerably and, in most cases, the farms that developed were uneconomical.

Not only were farms in the Mallee region too small to be economical, but also the adverse conditions, a sequence of droughts, the unpredictability of the weather and the fragility of the land meant that the majority of small farmers could not survive. Nevertheless, the Mallee area is a very important part of Victoria and, as mentioned in the Land Conservation Council's proposed recommendations, the Mallee land encompasses parts of South Australia and New South Wales, and the report proposes ways in which to retain an important part of Victoria's ecology.

The government faces a daunting task, ifit accepts the proposed recommendations, in managing the land and reclaiming areas of land to their original state. It can be done. The Hattah-Kulkyne National Park is an example of what can be done, but work has only just commenced in that area. As Mr Evans pointed out, with proper management and strict control the mistakes that were made in that national park can be rectified. The Hattah-Kulkyne NatIonal Park was originally cultivated grazing land, unlike most other national parks which are in their natural state.

Mr Evans also referred to the kangaroo problem. Parts of the Mallee region became severely degraded because of the grazing of sheep, excessive cultivation and the spread of vermin, especially rabbits. Farming became unviable and many farmers left their properties so that rabbits and other vermin, such as pigs and kangaroos, took over. Since the government reclaimed the area in the 1960s the number of vermin has been gradually reduced to allow the smaller marsupials that used to inhabit the land to return. This is not occurring. However, the number of kangaroos has grown considerably. Kangaroos are causing enormous damage to that region and the government was attempting to control their numbers by selective culling.

In 1984 the government conducted a culling prowam within the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park. The park was to be divided into a senes of blocks. A six-foot high fence was built around one block and the number of kangaroos in that block was reduced to a more natural number; a further fence was to be built adjacent to that block and the same practice adopted. That work would then be continued from block to block until the number of kangaroos in the park was culled to a satisfactory number and the fences removed.

Unfortunately, many problems occurred with some of the more radical conservation groups. Most of the responsible groups realise the need for culling. The government endeavoured to drive the kangaroos from the area with the use of horses, but that was an absolute debacle. Because the kangaroos were territorial, when they were herded


out of the park they flung themselves against the fence to try to get back in. Many of them injured themselves because of that, and the decision was then made to carry out a culling. On one night some 800 kangaroos were shot and a few weeks later an additional 800 were shot.

It is unfortunate that the culling program has not been continued, and I hope the new Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands will consider re-establishing it. Because the culling has not been followed up over the past three years, kangaroo numbers have returned to the level they were before the cull started, and that is unfortunate. I am sure the Minister would have the backing of the more responsible conservation groups if she were prepared to re-establish that program.

Although Mr Evans may be correct in saying that there is no evidence to show that some animals and birds in the Mallee area have become extinct, there is plenty of evidence to show that several species are endangered. Studies also show that more species have disappeared from the study area since European settlement than from any part of Victoria. The widespread clearin~ of the Mallee has resulted in a severe decline and near extinction of some bird speCIes, including the mallee fowl, the blackeared miner, the magpie goose, the kori bustard, the western whipbird and the spotted bowerbird.

Over the years many mistakes have been made in the Mallee. Mr Evans mentioned dust storms, which in the 1930s were caused by the use of incorrect tilling methods. As a boy in the late 1930s I can remember the dust storms that hit Melbourne and Geelong. I can recall the "red rain" as it was called, and there were reports that the alps in New Zealand were tinted pink from the dust of the Victorian Mallee.

I know of no evidence of dust storms occurring in Melbourne prior to the Mallee being opened to grazing and cultivation, but they certainly occurred after that time. Since the 1940s, particularly since the government followed the recommendations of a 1946 report, new farming methods were introduced. I cannot remember a serious dust storm occurring between the late 1940s and the dust storm of 1983.

The 1983 dust storm came about because of the terrible drought of that year, of which all honourable members are aware, and that brings me to another point made by Mr Evans. During the drought year of 1983 I spent more time in the Mallee than I spent in the province I represent. Mr Evans spoke about people in the Mallee who understand and love the land. I point out that much of the difficulty in the Mallee in 1983 was caused by bad farming practices.

I have a report which was made to me in 1983 as the then Minister of Lands by the then Department of Crown Lands and Survey. It refers to several properties in the Mallee area. With regard to the Pine Plains property, the report states:

The eastern and southern parts of the licence were inspected. A number of sandy rises were bared off and evidence of reasonably high rabbit and kangaroo populations was noted. The area around the homestead was intensively bare and chopped by hooves etc, so that several hundred yards radius was raw deep sand.

Stocking levels were reputedly in the vicinity of 17 000 DSE early in the season.

The numbers had decreased considerably, but the recommended dry sheep equivalent was 6000. There was evidence that severe overstocking was taking place on that property. It was recommended that the O'Sullivans of Pine Plains reduce their stock to 4000.

As to the Heitmann's licence at Morkalla, the report states: The condition of the land is not the result of drought-it is caused by poor management and deliberate

overstocking. The licence has been subjected to 6000 DSE early in the year, 4000 at shearing and is still carrying about 2000 DSE even though the licence is supposed to carry not more than 1100 DSE in an average year.


Heitmann was ordered to destock totally and immediately, and the land was not to be licensed or agisted for a further ten years. As to the Sunset Pastoral Company, the report states:

It appears that all stock have been concentrated in one north-eastem paddock until recently.

This 5000 acres is actually worse than Heitmanns! The land has been bared off totally. No rabbits or weeds exist. No kangaroos were seen and the soil was separated and drifted down to fine gravel components and stones.

Sunset Pastoral Company was advised to destock within fourteen days to 3000 dry sheep equivalent. As to the McArthur property at Hattah, the report states:

This is the largest licensed area in the State, 75 800 hectares. The stocking level has been recommended to be 6000 DSE.

McArthur admitted having more than this but his stock level is now down to about 6000, not including horses.

Honourable members must bear in mind that 6000 dry sheep equivalent was the recommended level for an average year, but that property was carrying more than 6000 during a severe drought. In that case, it was recommended that the property de stock to a level of 3000 dry sheep equivalent.

They are some of the people and companies that Mr Evans claims love the land and understand it. He said officers of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands should speak with those people because they understand the Mallee better than the officers. That is not an argument, particularly if the experience of the drought of 1983 is an indication of how people feel about the land.

It is unfortunate that a proper survey of the Mallee was not done until 1984. The recommendations of 1977 did not have scientific backup. The recommendations were made in the best way at the time, but now that the Mallee has been properly surveyed, we have a better understanding of its ecology.

The report points out that it is important that the area be retained. It has always been a viable farming area. Mr Evans will admit that no-one has ever made a fortune out of the Mallee. More people have gone broke than have made money out of it. It has always been a fragile and marginal area. If the recommendations are followed we will have the opportunity of making up for our past mistakes.

One cannot blame our forefathers for those mistakes. They farmed the land through ignorance and under the conditions that prevailed in those days, but now we have the knowledge and understanding of how to manage that land. It can never be brought back to its natu~al state, but it can be improved to such a degree that it is brought back close to its natural state. We must ensure that the flora and fauna that exist in the area are safeguarded and that the practices which have denuded the area are ceased. If management and resources are provided the area can be improved.

As Mr Evans pointed out, it is no good Parliament approving the recommendations of the Land Conservation Council unless backup and support are provided. Althou$h it was inappropriate for Mr Evans to bring before the House the recommendations In this form, I appreciate the opportunity of discussing the matter. Mr Evans can take his argument to the LCC to enable it to counter his argument. If mistakes are made, or if the recommendations are not countered, the report can be altered, and when the final recommendations are presented to the House honourable members will be better informed and able to make decisions affecting the protection of the national parks and wilderness areas in that part of Victoria which will be appreciated by future generations.

The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province)-I support the motion moved by Mr Evans and pay tribute to him for the amount of work that he carried


out as the spokesman for the National Party on conservation matters. My association with the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park goes back 55 years when, as a boy, I used to visit the area with my uncle, the late L. G. Chandler, photographing birds. We spent many weekends in the area. My late uncle was a noted ornithologist and author on birds and nature. He was one of the men who were probably most responsible for the establishment of the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park in the decade of the second world war.

Since then I have been a frequent visitor not only to the Hattah-Kulkyne area but also to other areas such as Cullulleraine, Pine Plains and Little Desert. I recall, as a student at the Mildura High School, being fascinated by my teacher, Norman Riggs, who upon returning from holidays would tell us that when he reached Ouyen he would get out of the car and roll in the Mallee sand. I could never understand why he would do that until I had spent some time in the metropolitan area. I then understood why he was so pleased to leave the suburbs and to get out into the Mallee. He deeply appreciated an area which is unique in the world.

The motion concerns the proposed recommendations of the Land Conservation Council, and I take Mr Mackenzie's point that they are only proposed recommendations. A debate of this type and the opinions expressed can have a beneficial effect on the final recommendations. More than 800 000 hectares of land have been recommended for new national parks; 610 000 hectares of the Mallee and 191 000 hectares to increase the area ofWyperfeld, which is a large area.

Much of the land is subject to annual licence to local farmers. The farmers are constituents of Mr Best and me. Most of the area is contained in the vast North Western Province. In brief, my constituents feel that the proposed recommendations are impracticable and unworkable; that they are unjust and fail to consider local needs and opinions adequately. As we all know, sufficient parkland in that area of Victoria already exists.

More than 40 families are affected. They are mostly on freehold land and it is the areas under licence which are to be taken away from them; the licence areas render their properties viable. The original settlers mostly were allocated 640 acres, which was too small. Today, the majority of the land-holders have 3000 acres, which is viable. They can plant about 800 acres a year and run 600 to 800 sheep. They now probably plant less area to grain and run more sheep.

The families affected include the McArthurs, Rarold and Gloria and young Stephen, who have been active in the Hattah area; the Sullivans, Brian and Kaye and Tim and Susan, who have land in the Pine Plains area and whose families have lived there for 70 years; and Alan and Bonny Scown, who have been leased the river flat land in the Cullulleraine area for many years. I pay tribute to the courage and endurance of those people who have experienced many hardships in establishing themselves on the land to enable their children and grandchildren to have a better future.

The Land Conservation Council, through its chairman, Mr David Scott, has stated that there is no suggestion that the land under annual licence is not well managed, although Mr Mackenzie referred to a report of some years ago that made that implication. It is acknowledged that the licence-holders have been keeping the weeds down and that the fire risk has been kept to a minimum. The landowners have contributed to the low fire risk status by volunteering their services as fire fighters. If the proposals are adopted, most of the fire fighting will be in the hands of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands. I do not deny that the department's officers are hard working, and good people, but fighting fires with paid officers is costly.

On Christmas Day five years ago the Country Fire Authority and volunteers were fighting a fire in the Patchewollock area. They could not continue to fight the fire


because of the stage that it had reached and so they were playing cricket. They were being paid more than $90 an hour to fight that fire; probably more than the Australian first eleven-perhaps they were worth more in the light of recent results. Therefore the cost of controlling fires in the proposed new parks will escalate.

The control of rabbits in the Mallee area is a difficult issue. Landowners have done a good job controlling them. The chairman of the LCC, David Scott, admitted that rabbits are a problem and they will be an even greater problem if the area of parkland is increased. Increased effort is required in dealing with rabbits. Baiting, fumigation, trapping and shooting have been some of the methods used but shooting has been found to be the most effective control. Myxomatosis is now losing its effect on rabbits. The recommendations in the M allee Area Review do not allow for guns in the proposed national park. I raised this matter with the authorities and I have found that that is so.

Beekeepers will also be detrimentally affected by the proposed recommendations. If a fire occurs and hive sites are lost, no new sites will be allocated in the park area. Dried fruit producers at Merbein South will be affected, as they use Crown land on which to dry their fruits. Their freehold land is planted to vines and is now valued at $8000 to $10 000 an acre. The nearby Crown land is unsuitable for agriculture and is suitable for little else, and the producers have their drying racks on that land.

It is proposed that that land should be taken back from the growers and should revert to small pockets of parkland. The result will be that a property of 20 acres will be reduced by 1 or 2 acres of vine-growing area so that drying racks can be put in their place, and that may make the property not viable. For those good reasons, I have made strong representations and submissions to the LCC asking that it reverse its recommendations in that regard. The agricultural production of the area will be down 1 per cent-which does not sound much but nevertheless it is significant. Mildura shire council will receive 1 per cent less in rates because, as honourable members know, no rates are paid on national park and Crown lands.

Members of the Land Conservation Council are all people with excellent academic qualifications listed after their names. That is good, but the membership is short on practical farming experience. I have previously claimed that there are no practising farmers on the council and I have been challenged by the chairman, Mr David Scott, and Mrs Alison Teese. Mrs Teese farms in the Carisbrook area and claims to be a practical farmer, but I believe she would not really be at home in the Mallee area. Mr Tom Patton also claims to be a farmer, but the farming community, although acknowledging Mr Patton's expertise in his own area, is not keen to claim him as a practical farmer who would bring that expertise to the inquiries and recommendations.

Earlier Mr Mackenzie claimed that it was inappropriate to debate this matter in this House at this stage. I do not agree with him and my colleagues agree with me, but I acknowledge his interest in the park because at frequent intervals he and his family have gone to the park and enjoyed its amenities and its beauties, as I did as a youngster with my uncle, and from time to time since.

Other speakers have referred to the dust storms. I claim that, with better farming practices, the growth of better grasses and legumes will bind the soil and dust storms will be less frequent. I admit that the Hattah property was overstocked and would not be a good example for the debate.

There are many kangaroos in the Hattah lakes area and, as a result, the regeneration of native grasses and plants has been lessened. I understand there should be 150 kangaroos in the park but it is claimed that there are approximately 4000 kangaroos in the park and some 20 000 outside. It is essential that culling takes place as soon as Session 1988-23

690 COUNCIL 7 December 1988 M allee National Parks System

possible, otherwise the kangaroos will die in their thousands. Surely it is more cruel for them to die that way than by shooting. I note that Mr Mackenzie, a former Minister of Lands, is nodding his head. The Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands is scared stiff of the conservation lobby. The department must do what must be done, and that is to shoot kangaroos until they are down to a manageable number.

The closure of watering points has been questioned. If the proposed recommendation is implemented that will make little difference to the kangaroos. I am informed by the farming community that kangaroos have not been seen drinking from the watering points although they have been seen drinking from the dams. All bird species use the watering points and, for that reason, the bird population has increased enormously in the area. The number of mallee hens has increased significantly althou~ foxes in the main have reduced their numbers. Bird numbers will rapidly decrease If the watering points are closed.

I attended three public meetings and my colleague, Mr Best, attended two of those meetings.

The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Who was there besides you?

The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT-There were 500 other people present and there was little public support for the proposed recommendations. One meeting was held during the election campaign period and various candidates were invited to speak at the meeting. Mr Ron Best attended, as did Mr Arnold, the National Party candidate for the seat of Mildura, but as the sitting local member I did not get a guernsey because I was not up for election at the time.

The next meeting was held at Werrimull and the local hall was crowded out. Last week a meeting was held at Mildura and many VIPs were in attendance. The Chairman of the LCC, Mr David Scott, the Director-General of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands, Mr Len Foster, and Mr Alex Arbuthnot from the Victorian Farmers Federation attended the meeting. Mr Rod Waterman also attended. Probably 99 per cent of the audience were people awieved by the proposed recommendations, although the meeting was called by the vanous conservation groups. What would one expect? One would expect the hall to be overflowing with representatives of conservation groups.

In reply to Mr Landeryou's interjection, I place on record that the National Party has absolutely nothing to do with the League of Rights and it never has. Only one question was asked by a supporter of the proposed recommendations. It was a rather confused question. I do not know whether Mr Best could understand it, but I certainly could not. Mr Rod Waterman, the spokesman for conservation, was absolutely hopeless in his attempt to answer the questions asked of him, and did nothing to justify the recommendations.

I place on record that the Victorian Farmers Federation is strongly and utterly opposed to the Land Conservation Council recommendations. The local councils are also opposed to them, as are the Walpeup and Mildura shire councils. They are the two largest shires in the Ma1lee and they would lose much of their effective land if the recommendations were adopted. Also, there is little community support for the recommendations.

The overwhelming opinion of those who are in the know is that the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands cannot even look after what it already has, let alone an additional huge area. If I could unfold a map to honourable members, they would be absolutely astonished to see the vast area covered in red marking the area proposed for the national park.


I asked the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands a question on behalf of my constituents about the staffing levels and running costs of the Hattah-Kulkyne and Wyperfeld national parks. In a letter dated 16 November 1988, the Minister supplied the details. They showed that the 1988-89 Budget allocation for the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park is $371 600-that is from a total budget of $221 million for the department-and the number of current staff is nine. The Budget allocation for the Wyperfeld National Park is $368 400, and the number of current staffis seven. If those are the maximum resources and staffing that the department is able to provid~ for those two huge parks at present, it will certainly be stretched to provide the necessary facilities to look after the proposed huge new national parks, and particularly to address the problem of the fire risk and the regeneration of various plants and native trees.

I place on record also that the elimination of grazing of cattle and sheep is not generally supported. The National Party has already undertaken publicly to support the farmers who will be detrimentally affected by the recommendations and it will oppose them if they are introduced in a formal manner. The government has already expressed its support for the recommendations. In fact, I believe it actually expressed its support before the recommendations were even published.

The Hon. W. R. Baxter-And the Minister accuses us of pre-empting!

The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT -Yes. What hypocrisy! I suppose the Liberal Party will be the key to this matter, and I urge my colleagues in the Opposition to get behind the National Party and oppose these recommendations.

The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Yes, in a spirit of cooperation.

The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT -As Mr Baxter says, the Opposition should get behind the National Party in a spirit of cooperation. I take the fact that members of the Liberal Party are not speaking in the debate this afternoon as an indication that they are giving the matter very serious consideration, and I urge them to visit the area and see the situation for themselves.

The arguments of the National Party against the proposed recommendations are: firstly, we already have sufficient national parks in the Mallee. That is obvious. Secondly, the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands is struggling to look after what it already' has. Thirdly, the recommendations are unfair to the licenceholders. Fourthly, If adopted, the recommendations will result in an increase in vermin and noxious weeds. Therefore, I strongly support the motion that was so well and capably moved by my colleague Mr Evans.

The Hon. C. F. VAN BUREN (Eumemmerring Province)-I move: That the debate be now adjourned.

The action of the National Party in moving a motion regarding the proposals of the Land Conservation Council-and they are only proposals, not recommendations-is completely wrong and irregular. The council was set up by a Liberal Party government. It was intended that there be no pressure on it, in making its recommendations, from Parliament. The council's real purpose is to investigate and make recommendations to the government.

When the proper recommendations are made, the opportunity then exists of debating them in this place. That is why I have moved that the debate be now adjourned.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to, and it was ordered that the debate be adjourned until later this day.


VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province)-I move:

Volunteer Firefighters

That this House views with concern the failure of the government to give written assurances to volunteer firemen involved with dangerous goods at a level crossing accident at Nilma on 1 June 1988, and believes that, in the event of health hazards arising from this or other accidents, the government should provide full protection and treatment to volunteers.

I fervently believe the citizens of this State who volunteer to carry out tasks in our community without fee or reward are entitled, in these days of so-called plain English legislation, to be absolutely certain that if they suffer an injury in the course of such voluntary work they or their families will be fully protected and/or treated. I have moved this motion on a non-political basis because of my real concern.

The Hon. B. W. Mier-Well, it is political.

The Hon. R. J. LONG-Perhaps Mr Mier will give me the opportunity of putting forward a case that will illustrate that he is wrong. Unless some constructive amendments are made to the Act, if I were asked by volunteers in this State whether they should attend an accident or a fire, I would have to say to them, "Don't". That would hurt me deeply because I am a great admirer of the work done by volunteer firemen in this State.

To illustrate the point that I raise, I should like briefly to refer to the facts of the accident at Nilma on 1 June: On that day, a truck loaded with 77 drums of material produced at the Brown Coal Liquifaction (Victoria) Pty Ltd plant at Morwell was struck by a train at the Nilma railway level crossing. I am told-and I must admit that it is rumour only-that the truck carrying these drums came to the situation where the red lights were flashing and the boom·gates were down, and it was directed by somebody across the crossing. In order to be able to do that, the truck had to go to the other side of the road and then cross the railway line.

After the accident, the police called the volunteer firefighters to the scene for the purpose of washing down the roadway. When the firefighters arrived at the scene of the accident, the driver of the truck told them that the drums contained coal oil and coal dust. He had no manifesto of the load on the truck. Some of the firemen observed a clear liquid coming but of the blue drums as well as an orange-red liquid coming out of those drums.

Some people at the scene of the accident complained of being dizzy because of the smell, and the firemen then decided to establish what was being carried on the truck. An officer of the liquefaction plant informed the volunteer firemen that eight different substances were being carried on the vehicle and that they should not use water on it. The officer also advised that he was not sure what was in the drums but that it was a combination of a number of chemicals. He said the only danger was if the skin came in contact with the chemicals.

At a later stage, the police complained that there had been unnecessary hysteria and, on 9 June the police, through the deputy director of the police media unit, issued a press release. I must confess that when I read it I was a little puzzled. The accident had caused the Environment Protection Authority to remove large quantities of earth from the level crossing and cart it all the way to Melbourne. That in itself was a huge task and I dare say it was done at considerable cost. In fact, they had to lift the track at the crossing and re-lay it, so they went to considerable effort. The press release states:

About 1000 cubic metres of soil has been taken by truck to the Oeanaway landfill site at Tullamarine.

Volunteer Firefighters 7 December 1988 COUNCIL 693

I have been fortunate enough to obtain a copy of a report prepared by the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation Division of Fossil Fuels. It is entitled The Organic Characteristics of the Waste Productsfrom the BCLV Coal Liquefaction Process. The author is Trevor D. Gilbert and the report was issued in July 1985.

The report was obviously obtained by the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board, which at that stage had direct responsibility for environment protection in the Gippsland area. The board sought from the CSIRO a report on the wastes from the liquefaction plant. Page 1 of the report states:

The toxicity and environmental impact of coal liquefaction oils and wastes depend primarily on their chemical composition ... This report details the organic characterisation of three waste samples supplied by BCL V from the experimental pilot plant in Japan.

The report is rather important because it lists three samples: coal liquefied bottoms, de-ashed sludge, and processed waste water.

Page 4 of the report states: Synthetic fuels produced by coal liquefaction are generally highly aromatic compared with petroleum

derived crude oil. The US Department of Energy (DOE) in January 1980 considered that there is a hish probability-between·7 and ·9-that carcinogens and/or mutagens will be found in wastes and products from the second generation coal liquefaction technologies. The polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbonsPAHs---class of compounds has been related to cancer as far back as the nineteenth century.

One should bear in mind that this truck was carrying the exact chemicals mentioned in that previous paragraph. Page 5 of the report states:

The effect of a carcinogen is irreversible. It is possible that a single dose would be sufficient, also effects of small and seemingly harmless amounts over a period of time accumulate and are not detoxified by the body like other poisons.

I bring those remarks to the attention of the House for the express purpose of making the point that the volunteer firemen who went to the scene of the accident had Just cause for concern for their future health. When examining the legislative proviSions of, first of all, the Country Fire Authority Act 1958 I notice that it was not until 1972 that the following provision was made under section 20A (1):

Any group of brigades or any brigade may ... attend and carry out any function in relation to the provision of assistance to any person or protection of any property involved in any accident or emerpncy not connected with the suppression or prevention of fire.

Up until that sta$e volunteer firemen were interested only in the suppression of fires. However, proviSIon now exists for them to attend and render assistance. Subsection (4) provides that any person who is entitled to make any claim for compensation under this Act shall not be entitled to make any claim for compensation under the Victoria State Emergency Service Act.

It is important to bear those provisions in mind because section 110 of the Country Fire Authority Act provides:

The Governor in Council may in respect of the country area of Victoria make regulations for or with respect to all or any of the following purposes:

(g) For the payment of compensation-

(i) (in the case of accident causing personal injury to or destruction dam. or loss of the personal property of any officer or member of a brigade) to such officer or member; and

(ii) (in the case of the death of any officer or member resulting from any such accident) to the spouse family and dependants of such officer or member.

I shall refer again to the situation of volunteer firemen attending the scene of a railway accident for the purpose of hosing down the road. I have grave difficulty in

694 COUNCIL 7 December 1988 Volunteer Firefighters

understanding how those firemen could claim under that provision if they thereafter contracted a cancerous condition following personal injury incurred at that accident. The regulations made under that provision show further that it would be beyond the power provided in the Act.

Provision 6108 of the Country Fire Authority Regulations states: If in the course of service as a ... officer or member personal injury by accident arising out of or in the

course of the said service is caused to a ... officer ... the Authority shall be liable to pay compensation ...

That is much broader than the provision in the Act and I mention it for the purpose of pointing out m¥ ~ve doubt that if these volunteer firemen unfortunately contracted a cancerous condition they could claim compensation.

Section 22 of the Victoria State Emergency Service Act passed last year in this House states:

If a registered member ... suffers personal injury (including death) ... while engaging in any authorised activity in or outside Victoria ... compensation is payable ...

That is a worthwhile provision because it gives protection to members of the State Emergency Service. The State Emergency Service Act also provides that members training or practising for any such activity or travelling to or from any place where such activity is to be or has been engaged in are also entitled to compensation. However, the Country Fire Authority Act makes no such provision for firemen travelling to or from the scene of an accident or to any training they undertake to prepare them for such eventuality. It seems grossly unfair that volunteer firemen, who are prepared to do these jobs for nothing, receive no guarantee of compensation if they should suffer injury as a result of that work.

I make a plea to the government to seriously consider this matter, to take into account the good work volunteer firemen and women have done, and to protect them in the same way as State Emergency Service registered members are protected. The government must amend the Act to provide for these people. I commend the motion to the House.

The Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Central Highlands Province)-I support the motion and stress the important work done by volunteers in our community. They are a vital cog in the handling of fires and other accidents in country and outer suburban areas. They are dedicated and give up their weekends for training.

The Statement of Purpose in the Country Fire Authority's 43rd annual report for the year ended 30 June 1988 reads, in part:

The area for which the Country Fire Authority is responsible totals approximately two-thirds of the State of Victoria and includes just over 50 per cent of the State's population. Major cities and towns, large suburbs of metropolitan Melbourne, and important industrial complexes such as oil refineries and factories depend on the Country Fire Authority for year-round fire protection, along with thousands of rural properties.

The Country Fire Authority has more than 82 000 trained volunteers. The annual report further states that the authority: ... seeks to maintain an efficient organisation that promotes and supports the volunteer system and provides for effective recruitment, training and leadership development. It endeavours to build community and individual awareness offire prevention and personal survival measures and to encourage active public involvement. It aims to ensure continued operational preparedness to effectively control fire and hazardous material incidents, and to provide assistance to counter disaster management agencies in other emergency situations.

The annual report clearly enumerates some of the matters raised by Mr Long-that is, that firemen in the CF A go not only to fires but also to accidents involving hazardous


materials and often are inflicted with illness or injury as a result. Provision must be made for people injured or affected by accidents they attend. The chairman's report included in that annual report states:

A growing concern is the apparent slight falling off in volunteer members.

One would hate to think that that falling off of volunteers could have something to do with either their fears or the fears of their wives and children that they are not adequately covered in the event of injury or illness. The chairman's report continues:

Nevertheless, the motivation of our volunteer and other related concerns raised by the associations indicate that more sophisticated and sympathetic methods of identifying and meeting the expectations of our volunteer firefighters should be developed.

To highlight Mr Long's concern, I mention some of the types of accidents that emergency groups are asked to attend. In September 1987 in Ferntree Gully they attended an incident where 4000 litres of petrol spilt into an underground drainage system. On 14 September 1987 in Shepparton 9000 litres of hydrochloric acid leaked from storage tanks. On 16 October 1987 in Seymour, in the province I represent, a road transport vehicle with a load of mixed chemicals overturned on the Hume Highway. On 11 March 1988 at Avenel, also in the province I represent, emergency groups attended another vehicle accident. Mr Long mentioned the Nilma incident. In 1988 in Broadford a tanker carrying 500 litres of butyl acetate overturned on the Hume Highway. In all of those incidents, those dedicated volunteers did not quibble; they placed themselves at risk by attending.

They are examples of the accidents and incidents that volunteers must attend. Legislation should clearly state whether those members in our community are covered when required to attend such accidents. Not only is the Country Fire Authority looking after the rural areas but also it is heavily involved in areas where refineries and oil depots are located. Recent experience has shown the problems that can occur when firemen attend such locations. The legislation should be changed. I urge the government to make changes so that Victorian volunteers are covered in such incidents.

On the motion of the Hon. B. E. DAVIDSON (Chelsea Province), the debate was adjourned.


TRUSTEE COMPANIES (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from the previous day) on the motion of the Hon. E. H.

Walker (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-The Trustee Companies (Amendment) Bill amends the Trustee Companies Act 1984. That Act followed the collapse of the Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd and was designed to insert provisions to ensure a similar collapse does not occur in future and to protect the interests of persons whose funds and estates are administered by trustee companies.

Trustee companies play a substantial part in the financial life of Victoria because more than $1000 million In estate trust funds is administered and invested in Victoria by trustee companies. Common funds account for more than $2500 million. Changes have occurred in the trustee companies industry since the Act came into operation in 1984 and have been specifically aimed at the practices followed by the companies. In particular, a massive growth in common funds has occurred. It is desirable to review and improve the Act from time to time. That is the object of the Bill.

696 COUNCIL 7 December 1988 Trustee Companies (Amendment) Bill

I shall not deal with every aspect of the Bill because the Minister recently outlined the Bill to the House in his second-reading speech. However, I shall refer to one or two important clauses. Clause 5 allows the imposition of conditions upon new companies entering into the field. The conditions are to be specified by the AttorneyGeneral. Further provisions are included in the clause enabling the Attorney-General to vary and to revoke the conditions, if appropriate. Provisions are included in the Bill about the way in which that can be done.

The end result will be that the trustee companies which existed prior to the introduction of the Trustee Companies Act 1984 will be subject only to the provisions of that Act, whereas new companies will be subject to any conditions that may be specified by the Attorney-General. The OppositIon has some reservations whether two categories of companies should be allowed for in the field. But given that it is reasonable that new companies should have conditions imposed, the Opposition is concerned that the conditions will simply be imposed by the Attorney-General and not be subject to any scrutiny by Parliament. The original trustee companies in Victoria were incorporated by an Act of Parliament, and the conditions under which they were able to operate were laid down by Parliament and were the subject of public scrutiny.

Should the Bill proceed, it would be better to provide for the conditions to be set by regulation. The regulations could then be subject to the procedure already existing for the Parliamentary scrutiny of regulations. Also, the regulations are seen to be made public, thereby providing an opportunity for people to express views about them. I intend to move some amendments along those lines in the Committee stage of the Bill.

Clause 6 provides for the authorisation for a company to operate as a trustee company to be suspended in certain circumstances. Certain consequences follow if that occurs. Clause 6 of the Bill was amended in another place to make it clear that, if a trustee company had its authority suspended, it would still be required to comply with the normal conditions as to the protection of funds which it was administering. That was important because it would not be desirable and, indeed, it would be ludicrous if a company were freed from the normal restraints applied to its handling of funds as a result of a suspension.

Clause 8 allows a trustee company to charge commission based on the value of the estate and revokes a decision of the Supreme Court of Victoria which found that it was inappropriate to base commission upon the value of the estate. It meant that some trustee companies were operating at a loss. The clause will reverse the result of that decision. While one has some reservations about reversing such decisions of the Supreme Court, in view of the detrimental effects the decision had on certain trustee companies in this case the amendment ought to be permitted.

Apart from these matters, there is a need for provisions covering regulations under both the principal Act and this Bill. The Opposition believes it should be open to have those regulations, or any regulations made under those powers, disallowed by either House. In the Committee stage the Opposition will move amendments along those lines. Subject to those comments, the Opposition does not oppose the Bill.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The National Party does not oppose the Bill, subject to the amendments to be proposed by Mr Storey in the Committee stage being accepted by the government. The Bill has been about for some time, and this is the third attempt at having the measure debated by Parliament. The Bill ran into obstacles along the way and then went into limbo prior to the last State election. The Bill emerges out of experience gained under the 1984 Act, which came about following the financial failure of the Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd.


At that time the whole concept of trustee companies received extensive coverage and consideration by Parliament. I was involved in some of those negotiations. I am pleased that on this occasion Parliament has benefited from the expert knowledge of the honourable member for Kew in the other place, which has led to some significant improvements in the Bill.

The points made by Mr Storey adequately cover the measure. The matter has been before the House on a number of occasions over the past five years and I shall not canvass the issues. I simply advise the House that the National Party will support Mr Storey's amendments.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and committed. Clauses 1 to 4 were agreed to. Clause 5 The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-1. Clause 5, lines 5 and 6, omit "the Attorney-General determines and specifies in the authorisation"

and insert "are prescribed either generally or in relation to a particular corporation".

The effect of the amendment is that, instead of the Attorney-General bein~ able to determine and specify the conditions, they will be prescribed. That will bnng them within the ambit of the Subordinate Legislation Act, and they will be subject to the normal process under which there can be a review by the Legal and Constitutional Committee and an opportunity for Parliament to consider whether the conditions should be allowed or disallowed.

The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I have no doubt that Mr Storey's basis for moving the amendment is well founded. My difficulty is simply a procedural one. I have had no indication from my colleague, the Attorney-General, that the government should accept the amendment. Therefore, my only option is to oppose it, so that the matter can be handled in the other place. That is probably the arrangement that has been made.

I do not wish to debate the issue since I would be hard-pressed to do so. Without a clear direction from the Attorney-General I am bound, as the Minister responsible for the Bill in this Chamber, to oppose the amendment.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I thank the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources for what he said. I understand that there have been discussions between the Attorney-General and the honourable member for Kew in the other place. The amendment incorporates the words "either generally or in relation to a particular corporation" at the suggestion of the Attorney-General. I do not su~est the Attorney-General necessarily supports the amendment, but the OppositIon sought to take account of his views in drafting it.

I note that the Minister is not in a position to agree to the amendment in the Committee stage, but the matter would be best dealt with if the Committee agreed to the amendment, even though the government may not agree with it. The matter can then be further discussed in the other place.

The amendment was agreed to. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: 2. Clause 5, lines 7 to 32, omit sub-clause (2) and insert-

'(2) In section 7 of the Principal Act, after sub-section (5) insert-

"(SA) Regulations made under this section may be disallowed in whole or in part by resolution of either House of the Parliament in accordance with the requirements of section 6 (2) of the Subordinate Legislation Act 1962.

698 COUNCIL 7 December 1988 Victorian Arts Centre (Amendment) Bill

(5B) Disallowance under sub-section (SA) is deemed to be disallowance by Parliament for the purposes of the Subordinate Legis/ation Act 1962.".'.

The amendment is consequential upon the amendment just agreed to by the Committee because it omits all the provisions with respect to the Attorney-General making, varying, or opposing conditions, and substitutes the normal provision about disallowance of regulations. The Committee has already agreed to deleting the reference to the Attorney-General making the conditions and substituting the prescription of these provisions.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 6 to 10.

Clause 11

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: 3. Clause 11, after line 19, insert-

"(4) Regulations made under this section may be disallowed in whole or in part by resolution of either House of the Parliament in accordance with the requirements of section 6 (2) of the Subordinate Legis/ation Act 1962.

(5) Disallowance under sub-section (4) is deemed to be disallowance by Parliament for the purposes of the Subordinate Legis/ation Act 1962.".

ThIS is the standard form of amendment that honourable members are accustomed to in this Chamber, so that the regulation-making powers in a Bill are amended to ~ve either House of Parliament the power to disallow a regulation. The amendment IS in the common form adopted many times previously in this place.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted.

Clause 12

The Hon. HADOON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: 4. Clause 12, line 21, after "12" insert "(1)".

5. Clause 12, after line 43, insert-

'(2) After section 36 (4) of the principal Act insert-

"( 4A) Regulations made under this section may be disallowed in whole or in part by resolution of either House of the Parliament in accordance with the requirements of section 6 (2) of the Subordinate Legis/ation Act 1962.

(4B) Disallowance under sub-section (4A) is deemed to be disallowance by Parliament for the purposes of the Subordinate Legis/ation Act 1962.".'.

These amendments have the same effect as amendment No. 3. They alter the regulationmaking powers in the principal Act so that regulations may be disallowed by either House.

The amendments were agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the remaining clauses.


VICTORIAN ARTS CENTRE (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from November 24) on the motion of the Hon. C. J. Hogg

(Minister for Ethnic Affairs) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. HADOON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: That the debate be now adjourned.

Victorian Arts Centre (Amendment) Bill 7 December 1988 COUNCIL 699

I shall explain the reason for moving the motion. The Victorian Arts Centre (Amendment) Bill has been brought forward for one purpose: to frustrate current proceedings in the Federal Court or Australia. If the Bill is passed, the legal proceedings will be completely useless because the issues in those proceedings will be pre-empted by what will be achieved through the passage of the Bill. The case to which I refer proceeded last week and was adjourned until 20 December, when the parties will have the opportunity of makin$ some final submissions to the court. I do not know whether the court will give a decislon on that day.

I suggest that debate on the Bill be adjourned for fourteen days, which will take the time for resumption of the debate to a date after 20 December, when Parliament will be in a position to know what has happened in the legal proceedings. It is the view of the Opposition that debate on the Bill should not proceed until the legal proceedings are concluded.

If those proceedings are determined in favour of the defendants, who are the Victorian Arts Centre, the National Tennis Centre, and the management of Olympic Park, the Bill will be unnecessary.

I do not propose to go into all the details of the case on this application for an adjournment. However, if the motion is defeated, I shall go into the details of the action.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-The government is keen that the proposed legislation be passed. There are reams of reasons why the Bill should be passed, and I therefore suggest that debate on the proposed legislation continue.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The National Party is opposed to the motion for the adjournment of the debate. I do not want necessarily to question the logic of an honourable member of Mr Storey's eminence, but on this occasion I must. Mr Storey claimed that the debate on the Bill and its passage through Parliament will frustrate a court case that is currently in train.

I would put it the other way: if the Victorian Arts Centre (Amendment) Bill is debated the court proceedings will be assisted by the decision of Parliament. If Parliament passes the Bill, there is no point in proceeding further with the court case and everyone will know where they stand. If the matter is not proceeded with today, it remains in limbo. There are good reasons for continuing the debate today.

The House divided on the motion for the adjournment of the debate (the Hon. A. J. Hunt in the chair).

Ayes 17 Noes 24

Majority against the motion

AYES MrAshman Mr Chamberlain MrConnard MrCox MrCraige Mrde Fegely MrGuest MrKnowles MrLawson MrLong MrMacey MrMiles MrSkeggs

7

NOES MrBaxter MrBest Mrs Coxsedge MrCrawford MrEvans MrHall MrHallam MrsHogg Mrlves MrKennedy Ms Kokocinski Mr Landeryou MrsLyster


AYES MrStorey MrsTehan

Tellers: MrSmith Mrs Varty

MrBirreU PAIR

I

Victorian Arts Centre (Amendment) Bill

NOES MrsMcLean Mr Mackenzie MrMier MrPu11en MrSgro Mr Theophanous MrVanBuren MrWhite MrWright Tellers: MrDavidson MrHenshaw

MrWalker

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-The Bill is a disgrace to Parliament. The second-reading speech of the Minister for Ethnic Affairs is an equal disgrace because it does not give anyone who reads it the faintest idea why the Bill has been introduced. The speech talks about clarifying and expanding in some way the powen of the Victorian Arts Centre Trust in running BASS Victoria and other activities but does not reveal that the Bill will validate an agreement between the Victorian Arts Centre Trust and the National Tennis Centre, and another agreement between the trust and the Olympic Park Management to give BASS Victoria exclusive ticketing rights to the tennis centre, the Melbourne Sports and Entertainment Centre and the Victorian Arts Centre.

Not only does the Bill do that, but also it does so retrospectively. That means that the measure takes away from litigants whatever rights they may have, which rights are currently being determined by the Federal Court of Australia. The second-reading speech would not give anyone the faintest idea that that is the intention of the Bill.

I shall take the House through the history of the proposed legislation. When the Victorian Arts Centre Trust was established it was given powen to undertake various roles, including the establishment of the ticketing operation known as BASS Victoria. BASS commenced operations even before the VIctorian Arts Centre was opened because the centre was promoting a number of activities. Later the National Tennis Centre was built and an agreement was entered into between the Victorian Arts Centre Trust and the tennis centre under which BASS Victoria was given exclusive ticketing rights.

This meant that any promoter of an activity to be held at the National Tennis Centre had to accept the ticketing services provided by BASS and was not able to institute his or her own ticketing services. A similar agreement was entered into with the Olympic Park Management to cover activities held at the Melbourne Sports and Entertainment Centre.

A couple of years ago the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd wanted to hold a performance by Pink Floyd at the National Tennis Centre so it entered into an arrangement with the centre's trust to have that promotion held at that venue. The corporation was confronted with an agreement under which it would be required to use BASS Victoria as the ticketing organisation. The Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd has a ticketing· business at the Comedy Theatre and wanted to use that venue for ticketing. However, the corporation was forced to enter into this agreement, which meant that BASS would do the ticketing, because it wanted to use the National Tennis Centre.


BASS Victoria undertook the ticketing arrangements for the Pink Floyd concert and the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd complained that the arrangements were totally defective, that everything went wrong. For example, the arrangement cost Paul Dainty a lot of money; tickets were not sold; and various other problems arose. I shall not enter into a discussion on the rights and wrongs of that arrangement, but following upon that the Paul Dainty organisation instigated action in the Federal Court of Australia to attack the agreement into which it was forced and which gave exclusive ticketing rights to BASS Victoria. Subsequently, the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd promoted the Mick Jagger performances at the tennis centre and again the corporation had to use BASS. Complaints were also made about the ticketing services for those concerts.

The case instituted by the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd was due to come on in the Federal Court on Monday last week. Lo and behold, shortly before then the government introduced quickly and urgently this Bill. On examination of the proposed legislation one soon discovers that it takes away whatever rights the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd may have in that action. That is why the Opposition believes it is completely wrong to use Parliament to remove someone's legal rights, whatever they maybe.

If the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd were to lose the case, the powers provided in the Bill would not be required, which shows the absurdity of the government's rush to introduce it. The government is,using the power of the legislature to frustrate and even take away the rights of a person-or, in this case, an organisation-an action that Parliament has always resisted. .

If a Bill is designed to rectify a wrong, it usually contains a clause that protects the rights of litigants; but the Bill makes no such provision. It contains retrospective provisions that would effectively change the rules under which agreements have been made between the Dainty organisation and the Victorian Arts Centre Trust, thus taking away whatever rights that organisation has at present.

The Hon. R. J. Long-It does not even give Dainty a chance to recoup his costs to date.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY-It gives him nothing! If the Bill were passed in its present form, the court would have to say, because the law had changed since the case started, that there is no point in continuing the proceedings because no remedy is available. The Bill goes further than that. Clause 5 (3) states, in bland terms: .

(3) The Agreements referred to in the Schedule are, and shall be deemed always to have been, specifically authorised and approved.

It does not say by whom such agreements would be approved or authorised, or for what purposes; instead, it says "deemed always to have been specifically authorised and approved".

After reading such a clause, a layman would no doubt say, "That's nice. I don't particularly know what it means, but I suppose it is there because the government wants to say that the agreements were all right; and because it seems that is what the Bill is about, I'll accept it". But those words are very important. Section 51 (1) (b) of the Trade Practices Act says, in effect, that the provisions of the Act relating to exclusive dealing do not apply to agreements that have been specifically authorised and approved by State legislation. Those few bland words in the Bill, the meaning of which is not explained in the second-reading speech, are there for the sole purpose of ensuring that the Trade Practices Act cannot apply to the agreements to which I have referred.


The Liberal Party has two major concerns. Firstly, it is concerned that the Bill will operate retrospectively, thus changing the rules for those people who operated under the present law; and, secondly, it is concerned that the Bill WIll ensure that the Trade Practices Act cannot be invoked by anyone in relation to arrangements made between the Arts Centre Trust and other bodies. The retrospective provisions of the Bill are deplorable. It is remarkable that the government has introduced the Bill without telling honourable members how current litigation will be affected by the retrospective nature of the Bill. The Bill will remove the restraint of trade provisions that apply to private organisations. The government is seeking to put BASS in a preferred position so that it does not have to meet the same conditions that the Paul Dainty organisation has to meet-or the Computicket organisation, which was started by a well-known Victorian and which, unfortunately, did not succeed.

One can understand the desire of the Victorian Arts Centre Trust to have its own ticketing arrangements for the Victorian Arts Centre; and one can understand that the National Tennis Centre would like to have a similar arrangement to ensure that the best possible ticketing arrangements were available to its potential patrons. Yet the Bill goes one step further, because it will give exclusive rights to the National Tennis Centre. The Liberal Party does not say that the Trade Practices Act should prevent such an arrangement occurring; it does not believe it is entitled to say so because the Act is Federal legislation. But the Liberal Party believes that BASS should be subject to the same constraints as apply to any other private organisation.

The present legal proceedings are based on the premise that the Victorian Arts Centre Trust does not have the power to enable BASS to operate in these circumstances, and the provisions of the Trade Practices Act are an im~rtant part of that argument. The Dainty organisation is entitled to have such issues litigated and to have a decision made about them. If the Bill were passed in its present form, such a possibility would be frustrated.

If the Bill were amended to remove only the retrospective provisions, thus leaving clause 5 intact, the Trade Practices Act provisions would not apply in future and BASS ticketing operations would be protected in a way that is not available to other private ticketina operations. The Bill would therefore place BASS in a privileged position. The LIberal Party does not believe that to be fair, because BASS should be able to stand on its own feet.

I have been satisfied with the dealings I have had with the BASS organisation, apart from having to wait on the telephone for a long time on occasions; but such delays are commonplace these days. So far as I am aware, BASS is able to stand on its own feet; the Liberal Party is not raising doubts about its operational ability. The Liberal Party is concerned that the Bill will give BASS a privileged position, which would reduce its exposure to competition and reduce the opportunities for alternative ticketing operations when events are promoted at the National Tennis Centre or the Melbourne Sports and Entertainment Centre.

For those reasons, although the Opposition supports the clarification in general terms which ensures that BASS Victona has the power to do the things it is doing, and thus will support that aspect of the Bill, the Opposition will move amendments during the CommIttee stage to remove the retrospective provisions of the Bill and those provisions which ensure that BASS has an exclusive right conferred by statute.

The Opposition believes they are unnecessary and undesirable and trusts the government and the National Party will see sense and support the foreshadowed amendments.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province)-The National Party has studied the Bill carefully and is aware that the government will propose amendments during


the Committee stage. I thank the Minister for Ethnic Affairs for informing the National Party of proposed amendments to the retrospective clauses that will be moved by the government during the Committee stage and, in those circumstances, the NatIonal Party will support the Bill.

It is unwise and undesirable to include retrospective clauses in legislation. The National Tennis Centre is a magnificent addition to the facilities provided for the City of Melbourne. The issue caused considerable controversy at the time it was proposed and was the subject of considerable debate in Parliament and the cause of disagreement between the government and the Opposition. The National Party, however, at the time of the debate, and later when legislation was initiated, supported that legislation. With hindsight the National Party believes it made the correct decision to support the legislation, which led to Melbourne having a world-class venue, not only for tennis, but for many other entertainments and functions.

All members of Parliament support the bid by Melbourne to obtain the 1996 Olympic Games. One of th~ key facilities in the submission prepared to gain the Olympic Games is the National Tennis Centre. Had the legislation not passed at that time Melbourne would not have had the facility and could not claim the advantage that the tennis centre provides.

The Victorian Arts Centre Trust is also a facility owned by the people of Victoria, subject to the control of Parliament through legislation that was enacted some years ago. The Victorian Arts Centre and the National Tennis Centre are similar organisations. However, the Victorian Arts Centre Trust established BASS Victoria for the sale of tickets, control of ticketing, and crowd access facilities.

The Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd also owns entertainment facilities in Melbourne and an entrepreneur wanting to hire the Paul Dainty organisation facilities has to use its ticketing organisation. So what the Paul Dainty organisation is demanding of the National Tennis Centre does not occur within its own organisation.

It has been said that the National Tennis Centre is in breach of section 51 of the Trade Practices Act because it gives exclusive rights to ticketing to the BASS organisation. That issue is currently in dispute in the courts. Had the tennis centre established its own ticketing organisation-perhaps "Treble BASS" -no claim could be made under the Trade Practices Act. The tennis centre would be in exactly the same position as the Paul Dainty organisation, the aggrieved party at the present time, and no action would be taken in the courts.

However, there is a view that Melbourne does not have the capacity, because of its population, for two major ticketing organisations. As the Victorian Arts Centre and the National Tennis Centre are owned by the people of Victoria it seems reasonable to the National Party that the one ticketing or$anisation should have sole rights over those centres. I am not certain whether le~slatl0n should be amended to allow that to happen, but the proposed legislation valIdates that position and puts beyond doubt the fact that BASS will control ticketing services for the two entertainment centres referred to in the Bill.

The National Party believes there are clear advantages in that arrangement. One of the advantages is that the control ofticketing is a profitable venture. Both organisations conduct profitable functions, but by the nature of their activity events that are seen as a cultural advantage to the people of Melbourne may not be profitable. The sale of tickets through BASS and the profits that are thus generated assist in subsidising those non-profitable functions that occur from time to time. The government, quite properly, uses commercial undertakings to repay and to subsidise events that Parliament will agree are of value to the people of Victoria-it is a good arrangement.


The National Tennis Centre is a magnificent facility and has a reputation and responsibility that are different and in excess of those conducted by a private organisation. It is essential that the facility be well run and that the ticketing and seating arrangements be properly controlled. BASS has the experience to do that work and, indeed, does have the advantage and capacity to make a more value-based judgment than a commercial organisation.

There is a tendency, perhaps a degree of advantage, for a commercial organisation not to conduct a ticketing process very well. That is not in keeping with the philosophy and view that Victorians wish for their National Tennis Centre. There is a further advantage: by not being a direct responsibility of the hiring organisation persons who have a legitimate claim on booking fees are better protected. Entrepreneurs may hire the venue and sell the tickets but something may go wrong with the operation and the people of Victoria are left in the invidious position of claiming refunds from a bankrupt organisation. The present system is a more secure system for the people of Victoria.

Indeed, if any commercial organisation were to hire the National Tennis Centre, sell tickets to the general public and then not meet its just debts simply because it frittered away the finance raised from tickets, there would be loud screams from many people claiming that the mone¥. owed to various people should be repaid. If BASS Victoria controls it, that is less hkely to happen.

Some would say that the National Tennis Centre is a monopoly organisation, and, indeed, it is. The Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd has its own entertainment venue. Melbourne has many other entertainment venues such as Festival Hall and the Exhibition Buildings, but it happens that the National Tennis Centre is the best available. Because of its superiority, some people assume a monopoly situation.

It is reasonable that any commercial organisation in the same position as the National Tennis Centre should be able to control aspects of its business that are profitmaking. The sale of tickets is profitable. It seems reasonable, therefore, that the tennis centre should be able to make a profit, just as the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltdthe plaintiff in the case before the courts-should be able to make a profit. It would be an omission for the tennis centre to be unable to make a profit. If that were the case, it may be said that the Parliamentarians who framed the legislation that led to the constitution of the National Tennis Centre should have taken more care to ensure that the ticketing arrangements were kept in order and the tennis centre had the opportunity of controlling its own ticketing operations.

The Bill simply amends a matter that needs to be amended. I understand that, through the retrospective provisions of the Bill, any case an organisation may have against the tennis centre of restriction of trade and any damages for events that occurred in the past would be removed and, in that sense, a retrospective clause is unreasonable. Provided that matter is cleared up, the National Party will support the Bill.


The Bill was read a second time and committed.

Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to.

Clause 3

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I move: 1. Clause 3, line 9, omit "(1)".

My comments on this amendment also apply to amendments Nos 2, 3 and 4 circulated in my name. The amendments remove the elements of retrospectivity surrounding


the power of the Victorian Arts Centre Trust to provide ticketing services for performances or events staged in places other than the Victorian Arts Centre and the power of the National Tennis Trust to enter into contracts or arrangements for the provision to the trust of a range of services associated with the operation of the tennis centre. To that extent, the government has recognised the concerns that have been raised previously.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-The Opposition supports the amendment, which is identical to amendment No. 1 circulated in my name. Simply to say that the government recognises the concerns that have been expressed is an understatement of the position. I should have expected that the government would have recognised the mistake it made in having the provisions made retrospective. The government should apologise to Parliament for having introduced a Bill with such provisions. I may be being ungrateful in responding in this way, but the government should not be allowed to get offlightly.

The government has been dragged screaming to this position, having resisted suggestions in the other place that it should do something about the retrospective provisions. It is now only grudgingly making the change, whereas the government should have recognised the necessity for change as soon as the matter was directed to its attention in the other place.

The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-As I said during the secondreading debate, the National Party supports the amendment, which removes the retrospective elements of the Bill about which the National Party was concerned. The amendment has the full support of the National Party and, once again, this clearly demonstrates the value of the Legislative Council and the opportunity of discussing and considering Bills and amendments between the two Houses of Parliament to ensure that legislation passed by Parliament properly reflects the needs and concerns of the people of Victoria.

The amendment was agreed to.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: 2. Clause 3, lines 13 and 14, omit "(whether on an exclusive basis or otherwise}".

The amendment removes the words that otherwise make it clear that approval is being given to exclusive arrangements. During the second-reading debate, I said that the National Tennis Centre and the Victorian Arts Centre Trust should be subject to the same trade practice provisions as anyone else in the business. To give them the power to make arrangements on an exclusive basis may circumvent the provisions of the Federal Trade Practices Act. In any event, it is not reasonable that the National Tennis Centre should be able to say to someone wishing to use the services of the centre that they can do so only if they enter into an arrangement with a third partythe Victorian Arts Centre Trust-to use its ticketing operations.

It is like going to a bank and asking for a loan and the bank saying, "Well, we will lend you money, but only if you take out an insurance policy with an insurance company named by the bank". It is obvious that some honourable members do not know how the Trade Practices Act operates and that one party requiring as a condition of doing business that the other party enters into an arran$ement with some third party and deals exclusively with that body is against the proVlsions of the Act.

The BASS organisation should be subject to that Act in the same way as any other organisation. For those reasons, the Liberal Party wishes to delete these words from the clause.


The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-The National Party is not prepared to support the Liberal Party's amendment. This is a Paul Dainty clause and it appears to be unreasonable given the fact that many organisations, at least one, the Paul Dainty organisation, in the entertainment business in Melbourne do precisely the same thing that the clause would seek to stop the government and the people of Victoria doing.

The Hon. Rosemary V arty-Y ou have mixed it up; you have it back to front.

The Hon. D. M. EVANS-Whether it is on an exclusive basis or otherwise means that the Arts Centre has the power to enter into an arrangement with the BASS outlet and to legally ensure that the BASS outlet does the ticketing for it. Is that not its intention? The National Party does not support the amendment.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-The government does not support the amendment moved by Mr Storey. There is nothing in itself abhorrent in the notion that either trust should have the power to entertain exclusive arrangements with parties conducting business at arm's length.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The amendment is not acceptable to the National Party. The explanation by Mr Storey does not go to the wording of his amendment. I regard the words in parentheses as being somewhat explanatory and whether they are there, on my interpretation, in no way prevents the Arts Centre from entering into the type of contract on which it reaches agreement with a supplier at the time. The words are there for clarity so that there will not be confusion and dispute in the future. They do not make it mandatory one way or the other. They are explanatory, and it is useful that the words remain.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-Ifwhat Mr Baxter has said is correct, I suggest that he should support the amendment. The Libelal Party- does not want to have legislation that contains unnecessary words. If the deletion of these words makes no difference, as suggested, they should be omitted.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-I did not say the words were unnecessary; I said that they are there for the purpose of clarity so that there will not be any disputes in the future. To that extent, they are useful.

The amendment was negatived.

The Hon. C. J. nOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I move: 2. Clause 3, page 2, lines 3 to 5, omit sub-clause (2).

I have spoken generally to the first four amendments.


Clause 4

The Hon. C. J. nOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I move: 3. Clause 4, line 7, omit U( 1)".

Again, the amendment has been spoken to.

The amendment was agreed to.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: s. Clause 4, lines 12 and 13, omit u, whether on an exclusive basis or otherwise,".

Amendment No. 5 in my name has the same purpose as my amendment No. 2, which was defeated. I shall not take up the Committee's time by going through it again in detail.


The amendment was negatived.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I move: 4. Clause 4, lines 19 to 21, omit sulKlause (2).


Clause 5

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I invite the Committee to vote against this clause.

The Hon. HADOON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-The Liberal Party will vote against the clause. The whole of the clause should be omItted because it retrospectively and prospectively takes these agreements out of the provisions of the Trade Practices Act. The clause deems them to have been specifically authorised and approved.

From my reading of the amendment circulated by the Minister, I understand she is only asking the Committee to vote against the clause to enable the insertion of another clause which will prospectively operate to remove these agreements from the provisions of the Trades Practices Act. Although I agree with the Minister to vote against the clause, it is not for the reasons that the Minister has in mind.

The clause was negatived.

New clauses

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I move: 6. Insert the following new clause to follow clause 4:

.. AA. The Agreements referred to in the Schedule and any subsequent agreements to the like effect between Olympic Park Management and Victorian Arts Centre Trust or between National Tennis Centre Trust and Victorian Arts Centre Trust, are specifically authorised and approved ....

The Hon. HADOON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-The Liberal Party opposes the new clause. As I indicated a moment ago, the effect of the amendment is that agreements referred to in the schedule are removed from the operations of the Trade Practices Act because they have been specifically authorised and approved by legislation.

Although the objectionable retrospective element has been removed, it still means that as from the date the Bill is passed it will not be possible for anyone to challenge the agreements on the grounds that they offend against the particular provisions of the Trade Practices Act. Although the agreements mayor may not offend against the Trade Practices Act, the Bill puts the issue beyond argument.

The Minister is inviting the Committee to refer specifically to particular agreements and not to validate the agreements in the normal sense; saying that there is power to make them but specifically referring to the agreements in order to prevent the Federal trade practices legislation applying to them.

This, in exceptional circumstances, may be reasonable but the Minister for Ethnic Affairs and the Minister for the Arts in another place have not eiven any reason why Parliament should state that what are, after all, simple commerCIal agreements should not comply with the Trade Practices Act. That is a departure from the Trade Practices Act and it is a departure from the good policy reasons which led to that Act, and it applies to every commercial agreement. Yet for no reason at all the Committee has been told that the Act should not apply to these agreements.

The Minister should justify what the government is doing. She should explain why the public interest requires Parliament to pass the proposed provision to prevent the


Trade Practices Act applying to these agreements; and, in the absence of any public interest-not a commercial interest but a public interest-the Committee should vote against the new clause.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province)-The National Party has come to its own conclusions on why the new clause is reasonable and should be supported. During my contribution to the second-reading debate I referred to the advantage to the National Tennis Centre Trust and to the people of Victoria of having the opportunity, as so many commercial organisations do, of exclusive rights to ticketing and the resultant profits. Previously, I have sketched out that perhaps the original Act was deficient in that it did not make provision to allow the trust to enter into an exclusive arrangement with BASS Victoria.

Had the tennis centre set up its own ticketing o~nisation there would not have been a quarrel, and there would have been no possibility of it contravening the Trade Practices Act. There are good reasons why the tennis centre should not conduct its own ticketing. arid why BASS Victoria should handle that: BASS has a substantial number of agencies throughout Melbourne and is a well-known organisation that would undertake this matter in a professional and sensible manner. The new clause deals with the possibility ofretrospectivity.

The Hon. Haddon Storey-We have done that in the rest of the Bill. Why do you want this.clause?

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-The objection of the Liberal Party appears to be that sewing up the situation will not provide the opportunity of breaking through the screen and earning profits from ticketing at the tennis centre. The National Party believes that opportunity should be supported. In that sense the National Party supports the amendment.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-The proposed new clause does not deprive the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd of the benefit of any judgment that will be handed down by the Federal Court in respect of any cause or action arising prior to the enactment of the Bill. As Mr Evans has spelt out, countless arrangements hang on that particular agreement and the government believes the proposed new clause is essential.

The Hon. J. G. MILES (Templestowe Province)-I make a point in relation to what the Minister has said and particularly in relation to what Mr Evans has said. My colleague Mr Storey made it clear that the main objections to the Bill and to several of these amendments are to the retrospectivity-which has now been eliminated-and, in particular, to an Act of Parliament superseding normal legal practices.

If I understand Mr Evans correctly, he was far from espousing the cause of free competition. The Liberal Party believes in free competition. The National Tennis Centre Trust is a noble and fine institution which the Liberal Party supports. If Mr Evans is espousing the view that only one group has the right to ticketing and the opportunity of an exclusive arrangement is provided, this sounds a little like a form of socialism with which the Liberal Party does not agree.

On the grounds already stated by Mr Storey, and I reinforce those statements, the proposed new clause and the Bill should not be proceeded with at this stage.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I have listened carefully to what Mr Evans said but I cannot find anything that addresses the issue of the proposed new clause. Mr Evans said that it is a good idea that the National Tennis Centre Trust and the Victorian Arts Centre Trust have the power to do these things. The Committee has already agreed to the provision which ensures that power exists.


The Minister said that the Bill does not affect the legal proceedings because the retrospectivity element has been removed. Given that that is so, it has nothing to do with the proposal we are now discussing which in the future will take those agreements outside the bounds of the Trade Practices Act. We are not talking about the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd but we are asking: what reason is there for Parliament to treat these agreements differently from any other agreement? We do not refer to the validity of the agreements in any general sense but we are asking whether they should have special protection which no other agreement has.

Mr Evans claims that already there are all sorts of agreements around like these and, if that is so, they are all subject to the Trade Practices Act. Whether those agreements offend against the Act I do not know and I am not arguing that, but. they should be subject to the Act just as all the others are. Let the courts decide whether they infringe the Trade Practices Act. Why should these agreements be singled out from the other agreements mentioned by Mr Evans to be removed from the ambit of the Act?

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province )-Firstly, I did not refer to a whole lot of agreements. I said that other organisations run ticketing services and I suggested it was reasonable that the National Tennis Centre Trust should have the opportunity of doing exactly the same thing as the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd, which runs its own ticketing service. I pointed out that the National Tennis Centre Trust could set up its own ticketing service which could be called Treble BASS-or perhaps Double BASS would be better-and it would not be in contravention of section 51 of the Trade Practices Act.

The objection raised by Mr Storey is that by agreeing to the proposed clause we ensure that the National Tennis Centre Trust can have its own ticketing organisation of choice-not by setting up an organisation for which there is not an apparent or specific justification, but by using a sister government organisation.

That is a very sensible and reasonable proposal. What Mr Storey was arguing was that the centre should not do that but that this clause-which as he says quite correctly creates the possibility of some organisation going before the courts and winning by a court decision something that the National Tennis Centre is not prepared to allow as a business arrangement-should be passed.

As I pointed out, and I hope I made myself clear, had the National Tennis Centre set up its own organisation, there would have been no possibility of the matter going before the courts. The centre has arranged a better deal with a government organisation as its sister organisation to provide ticketing services. That is reasonable and something that it was remiss not to include in the original legislation. I wish to make it clear that Mr Storey apparently did not listen to the arguments that I advanced.

The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province)-The new clause proposed by the Minister is even wider than Mr Storey described. I can understand the agreements referred to in the schedule being excluded from the Trade Practices Act. There are two such agreements, one made on 28 April 1988 and the other made on 18 May 1988. However, I ask the Minister to tell me why there is a need to include in the proposed new clause the words "and any subsequent agreements to the like effect". Are we trying to sew it up forever? Are we trying to say that any agreements made by these bodies for the future are also excluded from the provisions of the Trade Practices Act? If that is the case, I find it almost unbelievable that Parliament would support such a provision. It is incredible. What other subsequent agreements does the government have in mind that it must also protect?

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I do not know that there are any subsequent agreements in mind. However, they would be time limited, and


should such subsequent agreements be entered into, obviously, by including these words in the proposed new clause the time of the Parliament would be saved and a debate on this subject would not need to be entered into again.

The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province)-I suggest to the Minister that the words "and any subsequent agreements to the like effect" should be deleted from the proposed new clause. If the Minister says they have no meaning, why should they not be deleted? I am always suspicious about words being left in. I therefore ask the Minister to delete them.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-I do not believe I said that the words did not mean anything. I said that they did not specifically apply to any particular agreements. I am advised that it is the instruction of the Minister for the Arts that these words should remain in the proposed new clause and, therefore, I cannot agree to delete them.

The Committee divided on new clause AA (the Hon. K.. I. M. Wright in the chair). Ayes 22 ~oes 16

Majority for new clause AA 6 AYES NOES

MrBaxter MrCrawford MrEvans MrHall MrHallam MrHenshaw MrsHogg MrIves MrKennedy Ms Kokocinski Mr Landeryou Mrs Lyster MrsMcLean Mr Mackenzie MrMier MrPullen MrSgro Mr Theophanous MrVanBuren MrWhite

Tellers: MrBest Mrs Coxsedge

MrDavidson MrWalker

PAIRS

I

MrConnard MrCox MrCraige MrdeFegely MrGuest MrLawson MrLong MrMacey MrMiles MrSkeggs MrSmith MrStorey MrsTehan Mrs Varty

Tellers: MrAshman MrKnowles

Mr Chamberlain MrBirrell

The Hon. HADOON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I wish to move an amendment to new clause AA which has just been inserted in the Bill, and which does not appear on the circulated amendments.

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright)-Order! Mr Storey should have done that before the amendment was read a second time.

The Hon. HADOON STOREY-How could I?

The CHAIRMAN-Order! Is the Committee prepared to grant leave for Mr Storey to proceed along those lines?


The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-Leave is granted.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-Thank you, Mr Chairman, and thank you, Minister, for that. I move:

That the words "and any subsequent agreements to the like effect" be deleted from new clause AA.

The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province)-I strongly support the amendment. The day Parliament starts approving prospective agreements is the day it ought to fold up and go home. I take strong exception to the words being included because we are heading into a situation which Parliament should never have to face. I strongly suggest that the Committee supports Mr Storey's amendment.

The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-MrChairman, it would appear that the debate may be somewhat protracted. Perhaps we should resume after the suspension of the sitting for dinner.

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright)-Order! In discussion with the Leaders of the parties the Committee decided to endeavour to conclude prior to the suspension of the sitting for dinner. However, a new amendment has now been introduced and it may well be that the Leaders wish to reconsider the position.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-Mr Chairman, I support the remarks you have just made. I said to the Whip previously that the National Party would be happy to finish the debate on the Bill prior to the suspension of the sitting for dinner, but that was before I was aware of the amendment that has just been put before the Committee. It is a matter that not only might take some debate but also might need a little consideration. Now would be an appropriate time to suspend the sitting. It is past the normal suspension time, and a suspension now might facilitate a decision being made later.

The sitting was suspended at 6.34 p.m. until 8.2 p.m.

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-Prior to the suspension of the sitting, the Opposition asked for a response to Mr Storey's amendment, and I provide the following response. The agreements referred to in the schedule are each for a period of only three years commencing in effect from January 1988. The agreements have approximately two years each to run. Under the amendments proposed by Mr Storey, Parliament will be giving authorisation and approval only for the unexpired portion of the two agreements, not for any renewal of the agreements entered into between the same parties which may come into operation shortly after the expiration of the terms of the agreement.

It is important to note that the authorisation and approval are sought not for any subsequent agreements but only for subsequent agreements of a like nature. The amendments proposed by the government do not tie the hands of any of the three statutory authorities to force them to deal with each other after the expiration of the present agreements. However, if the three statutory bodies wish to enter into arrangements of a like nature in the future, those agreements would also have the benefit of the authorisation and approval.

The government believes its new clause AA represents and is designed to facilitate the efficient conduct of future ticketing business arrangements between the three statutory authorities and, indeed, the efficient conduct of business of this and subsequent Parliaments. For those reasons the amendment proposed by Mr Storey is rejected by the government.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I thank the Minister for the explanation. For the reasons given prior to the suspension of the sitting in opposing


new clause AA, the Opposition believes at least the reference to subsequent agreements should be deleted from new clause AA because that simply perpetuates the exemption that is in effect conferred by this clause. That perpetuation relates not only to these agreements or to agreements arising out of any options that are contained within these agreements but also to any agreements of a like effect. For those reasons, although the Opposition understands what the Minister says, it does not accept her explanation.

The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province)-The National Party appreciates the explanation given by the Minister which sets out in clear form the position as we understood it to be. The National Party will not support the amendment proposed by MrStorey.

The Committee divided on the question that the words proposed to be omitted stand part of clause AA (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright in the chair).

Ayes Noes

Majority against the amendment

MrBaxter MrBest

AYES

Mrs Coxsedge MrEvans MrHall MrHallam MrHenshaw MrsHogg MrIves MrKennedy Ms Kokocinski Mr Landeryou Mrs Lyster MrsMcLean MrMier MrPullen MrSgro Mr Theophanous MrVan Buren MrWhite

Tellers: MrCrawford MrDavidson

MrWalker PAIR

I

22 16

6

NOES MrAshman MrCox Mrde Fegely MrGuest MrKnowles MrLawson MrLong MrMacey MrMiles MrSkeggs MrSmith MrStorey MrsTehan Mrs Varty

Tellers: Mr Chamberlain MrConnard

MrBirrell

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: 8. Insert the following new clause to follow clause 4:

Act not to affect legal proceeding.

"A. Nothing in this Act affects the proceeding in the Federal Court of Australia between The Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd and Paul Dainty Productions Pty Ltd (Applicants) and the National Tennis Centre Trust, the Victorian Arts Centre Trust and Olympic Park Management (Respondents) (VG No. 255/1988).".

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Ethnic Affairs)-The government does not accept the new clause moved by Mr Storey. I am advised that nothing in the government's new clause AA deprives the Paul Dainty Corporation Pty Ltd of the


benefit of any judgment that will be given by the Federal Court in respect of any cause of action arising prior to the enactment of the present Bill.

Therefore~ to the extent to which Mr Storey's new clause proposes to preserve Dainty's rights in those proceedings up to the time of the passage of the proposed legislation, it is unnecessary. To the extent to which the new clause proposes to preserve rights for Dainty in the future in relation to the two agreements, that position is not accepted by the government.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province )-1 am disappointed with the Minister's response. The Bill has had a most deplorable history in the way it was introduced and in the way in which the government has effectively treated amendments to the Bill. The very least the government could do is to have recorded in the Bill that it is not intended to now affect the rights of parties to that action. Obviously they were grossly affected by the form of the Bill as it came to this place and, although the Minister has given some assurances on the present state of the Bill, I do not understand why anyone should rely upon those assurances because the court will determine the matter according to the words of the law, not according to what is said in this Chamber.

For that reason, the least the government can do is accept the new clause.

The Committee divided on new clause A (the Hon. K.. I. M. Wright in the chair). Ayes 16 Noes 22

Majority against new clause A

AYES MrAshman Mr Chamberlain MrConnard MrGuest MrKnowles MrLawson MrLong MrMacey MrMiles MrSkeggs MrSmith MrStorey Mrs Tehan Mrs Varty

Tellers: MrCox MrdeFegely

6

NOES MrBaxter MrBest Mrs Cox sedge MrCrawford MrDavidson MrEvans MrHall MrHallam MrsHogg MrKennedy Ms Kokocinski Mr Landeryou MrsLyster MrsMcLean MrMier MrPullen MrSgro Mr Theophanous MrVanBuren MrWhite

Tellers: MrHenshaw Mrlves

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. Wrigbt)-Order! I advise the Committee that Mr Storey will not proceed with his amendment No. 9.

The schedule was agreed to.


714 COUNCIL 7 December 1988 Crimes (Family Violence) (Amendment) Bill

CRIMES (FAMILY VIOLENCE) (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from November 23) on the motion of the Hon. E. H. Walker

(Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-This small Bill will amend the Crimes (Family Violence) Act passed by Parliament last year to deal with the serious problem of family violence. There are some estimates that three out of ten households encounter family violence, so it is a serious problem. The Act introduced an innovative remedy by providing injunctions to complement the criminal law. It is believed the application of the criminal law to cases of family violence does not resolve the position in any way and becomes a too difficult or arduous procedure to follow. Therefore, this process of a civil remedy was introduced.

The Bill is only a palliative measure. It addresses not the causes of family violence but the symptoms. The Bill will not lead to an ending of family violence. Parliament agreed to the original Bill which came into operation earlier this year. By the end of September more than 2000 orders had been made. That demonstrates that there is a need for such legislation and that many people are taking advantage of the procedures provided in the Act.

In a recent case before Mr Justice Nathan in the Supreme Court, His Honour decided that, as actions under the Act are civil actions, police prosecutors could not appear on behalf of police complainants. Police complainants come into the picture because they are called to scenes of family violence and seek orders under the Act. The question then arises of who actually deals with and proceeds to enforce that information in civil proceedings.

Mr Justice Nathan took the view that police prosecutors could not appear on behalf of police complainants in ordinary civil law cases as they do in criminal law actions. The government believes similar procedures should apply to civil actions brought before the courts under this Act as apply in criminal proceedings.

The Bill provides for police prosecutors to appear on behalf of police complainants in civil actions involving family violence. It also provides that police complainants and prosecutors not be liable to any civil proceedings arising out of the conduct of such hearings. The Bill provides for police officers to make arrests under warrants even if the warrants are not in their possession at the time of the arrests. It also allows for a party to bear his or her own costs unless the court orders otherwise.

Honourable members are dealing with a hybrid procedure. Although it is a civil remedy, the Bill seeks to apply the procedures that apply in criminal cases to civil cases involving family violence. That demonstrates the strange nature of remedies; they are civil but have overtones of criminal proceedings.

If the Bill is passed, it will emphasise, the criminal-type aspects of the procedures, even though it deals with civil actions. The Opposition is concerned about fundamental legal difficulties involving procedures under the Act after they are amended by the Bill. This issue raises the distinction or lack of distinction between civil and criminal proceedings. Nevertheless, there is a need for legislation to be introduced to deal with the problem. The Act, which has only recently been introduced, is being used by many people. If the Act is to be given a fair opportunity of proving its worth, there needs to be some recognition of the procedural difficulties that have been raised and emphasised by Mr Justice Nathan's decision.

Although the Opposition does not have any particular enthusiasm for the procedures suggested in the Bill, it certainly is not prepared to oppose the Bill. The Opposition

Crimes (Family Violence) (Amendment) Bin December 1988 COUNCIL 715

recognises that the Bill could lead to potential unfairness. In a case involving a police informant, a police prosecutor will pursue the action in court, whereas the other party-which normally turns out to be the male spouse-will probably appear on his or her own behalf. Therefore there may be a lack of balance in the manner of representation. These problems have more to do with the nature of the procedures introduced by the principal Act, the Crimes (Family Violence) Act 1987, than those introduced by the Bill, so the Opposition will not oppose it.

The Social Development Committee has been considering the issue of violence. I do not know what the current position of that inquiry is, but there is still much to be investigated. I hope at some convenient time the Social Development Committee will be able to consider the procedures introduced by the principal Act as amended by the Bill and report to Parliament on whether remedies other than those proposed in the Act should be pursued or whether the remedies proposed should be continued, with whatever improvements may be recommended.

The Opposition believes the proposed le$islation should be reviewed after it has had a reasonable period of operation so that It can be seen how it works. Althou$h the Opposition has some concerns about the nature of the procedures incorporated In the Act as proposed to be amended, it does not oppose the Bill.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-Like Mr Storey, I do not approach the Crimes (Family Violence) (Amendment) Bill with any enthusiasm. Unlike Mr Storey, I was unenthusiastic about the original Bill when it was introduced in this place.

The Hon. M. A. Lyster-I do recall.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Mrs Lyster remembers. There is a danger that the principal Act, the Crimes (Family Violence) Act, allows vindictive persons to have too ready access to court orders and denies the other party access to his or her own home.

I am appalled, alarmed, and staggered that more than 2000 orders have been made by the courts in the short period of operation of the Act.

The Hon. E. H. Walker-In nine months!

The Hon. M. A. Lyster-Have there been only 2000?

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-That could indicate that domestic violence is even more widespread in the community than one thinks.

The Hon. M. A. Lyster-They are not all vindictive claims.

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-It could mean that the fears I expressed when the original Bill was debated are being borne out and that the legislation is being used by vindictive persons, or that it is being used too readily, before other avenues are explored.

The Hon. Jean McLean-Before their faces have been bashed in!

The Hon.M. A. Lyster-Before they are murdered!

The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Before they are in intensive care units!

The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Before other solutions are examined. When I was a member of the Social Development Committee I was somewhat distressed that its inquiry into violence in the community-the reference arose out of the incidents that occurred in Hoddle Street and Queen Street-was deflected into a wild-goose chase on domestic violence. Although I shall be interested, as will Mr Storey, to read the

716 COUNCIL 7 December 1988 Crimes (Family Violence) (Amendment) Bill

report of the Social Development Committee, I am fearful that it will not have addressed the major aspect of the reference as I interpreted it.

Having indicated my lack of enthusiasm for the Bill, I do not oppose the proposed legislation because if the principal Act is to work as was intended by Parliament the amending legislation is clearly necessary. That is not to say that I disagree with the learned judge's ruling. It was perhaps a matter that should have been thought of at the time that the principal Act was debated, but it was not addressed and now attention has been drawn to it. If the Crimes (Family Violence) Act is to operate as intended, police officers must be able to act as prosecutors. Therefore I do not oppose the Bill.

As Mr Storey said, honourable members must address the reasons and causes of domestic violence. I am endeavouring to ascertain the breakdown of the figures of the approximately 2000 orders that have thus far been issued to determine how many have emanated from courts in the metropolitan area and how many from country Victoria. My suspicion is that the bulk of the orders have been issued by courts in the metropolitan area because of the great ant heap that has been allowed to grow in Victoria. Where so much of the population is crowded cheek by jowl, of course one finds social problems emerging.

I believe the statistics will indicate that the incidence of domestic violence is far less in country Victoria, because the social conditions are such that domestic violence is not engendered. Honourable members will know that the urban sprawl is costly in a number of respects, not the least beinf the infrastructure-transport and the likebut it is also costly in producing socia dissension, family breakdown, and domestic violence. It is time the government and Parliament addressed the cost to our community of the continued urban sprawl. The need for the Bill is just another example of the disadvantages of the urban sprawl, where people are living in such confined quarters.

I support the proposed amending legislation but indicate that I am examining the issue and that the Act may need some further tuning in the not-too-distant future.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-The Crimes (Family Violence) Act was an important piece of legislation passed by Parliament in 1987 and strongly supported by the Liberal Party. As Mr Baxter has said, honourable members are considenn$. something that should have been foreseen at that time, given that the person who W111 intervene is the person who responds to the cry for help from the person the subject of the violence, whether that be a child, a husband or a wife.

Family violence is an increasing problem and should be of concern to society. The reasons for domestic violence are manifold, of course. They could be financial pressures; problems associated with the abuse of alcohol or drugs; intolerance; or lack of communication. The level of family violence is increasing by any measure.

The current legislation provides a system for separating the parties. My colleague Mr Storey referred to it as an injunction, which it is. The legislation allows for removal of the person who is rroviding the element of danger to persons or property so that there is less chance 0 a continuance of the dangerous situation. The Bill is designed to overcome the technicality identified by Mr Justice Nathan. As Mr Storey pointed out, the Bill contains an anomaly because of the mixing of criminal and civil proceedings. The amendment appears to be inevitable. That is why the Opposition does not oppose the Bill.

Earlier this year when the House debated the Firearms (Amendment) Bill (No. 2) I proposed amendments that increased the power of police in situations involving domestic violence--either threatened or actual. The amendments gave the police peremptory power to remove firearms in that sort of situation. Some people said that

The Constitution Act Amendment Bill 7 December 1988 COUNCIL 717

those powers were over the top yet all parties in this House recognised that that potentially provided a solution to overcoming a dangerous situation involving firearms. The Opposition has always supported the concept behind the legislation.

Mr Baxter was sceptical about the 2000 reports. However, there is considerable underreporting and that problem is growing. Unfortunately, I do not share Mr Baxter's pious hope that numerous reports come from the metropolitan area and that they far outweigh those from country areas, even taking into account the weighting of population, because my legal practice experience proved to me that that problem exists in both large and small communities and is growing.

It is sad that the House must deal with proposed legislation of this sort. Handling family violence has always been difficult for the police. They have been reluctant to become involved because of doubts about their powers in these situations. They do not want to become involved in civil disputes. When a daughter in the household is being physically abused by her brother, father, or uncle; when a wife is being bludgeoned by her husband; or when a husband is being bashed by his wife, which does happen, a reasonable legislative armoury must be provided for the police to intervene and to protect the families. Although the Opposition is concerned about the amendment, it understands that it is a necessary flow-on from legislation that has already been passed by Parliament.

For those reasons, the Opposition supports the Bill.



The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-By leave, I move:

That this Bill be now read a third time.

In doing so, I thank Mr Storey, Mr Baxter, and Mr Chamberlain for their support of the Bill. I have listened closely to their comments, which I shall refer to the AttorneyGeneral in another place.



The debate (adjourned from the previous day) on the motion of the Hon. B. T. Pullen (Minister for Housing and Construction) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern Province)-The Constitution Act Amendment (Electoral Reform) Bill is one of the most important measures to come before Parliament this sessional period because it addresses the problems that have been created by' a government that is extremely desperate to gain control of the Upper House. The Bdl tries to overcome the difficulties that the government has created. Honourable members who are not new to this Chamber would know this is not the first time this Bill has been introduced; the first Bill was slightly different from this. When the House examined that Bill for the first time, in its wisdom, it decided to establish a Select Committee to examine it and to consider all aspects of the N unawading Province re-election and the election that preceded it.

The Bill addresses the problems created by this government, as I said, and the way it tried to win the seat ofNunawading Province. Of necessity, I shall try to explain the


reasons for the proposed legislation and take honourable members step by step through the history of cheating, lying, and trickery carried out by members of the Australian Labor Party. This scandal went to the highest level of the administration of the ALP; to people who would stoop to any measure to try to win control of the Upper House. The Opposition will support the Bill because it will bring honesty back into electing members to both Houses of Parliament. The Opposition does not want the cheating to continue. The Bill will be subject to a number of amendments, which will be considered at a later date.

For the sake of new members of this House, I shall outline the history of the Nunawading Province re-election. Mr Ives, who was recently elected to this Chamber, may not be aware of some of the facts behind the Nunawading Province re-election scandal. The Select Committee and the police said that Mr Ives had nothing to do with the scandal. The action of officers and members of the ALP during the campaign was disgraceful. It was one of the blackest moments in the history of Parliament. It revealed the interference in the roles of supposedly independent public servants and in the proper processes of the legal, electoral, and Parliamentary systems. This Bill will go down in history as the measure that enshrines the guilt of the Labor Party in the State.

The Hon. T. C. Theophanous-Come on! Don't be so strong!

The Hon. K. M. SMITH-Yes, I will be.

The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Are you opposing the Bill?

The Hon. K. M. SMITH-I am definitely not opposing the Bill! I want to see honesty brought back into this House; that is something members of the government are not prepared to accept.

I shall now deal with what the Bill attempts to do. The measure provides for the appointment of an independent Electoral Commissioner. The Liberal Party supports that principle. It enthusiastically embraces and shares with the government its preparedness in making that independent appointment. The Opposition also shares with the government its intention to appoint a Deputy Electoral Commissioner whose independence will be similarly protected. That is what the measure is about: the independence of the Electoral Commissioner and protecting the Chief Electoral Officer from interference by Ministers and their advisers.

The Electoral Commissioner and his deputy should be protected from interference by unscrupulous and devious people who are prepared to stop at nothing to get their own way-and, in particular, to gain control of this House, as was attempted in the Nunawading Province re-election affair.

There are two parts to the Bill. The first part concerns the Electoral Commissioner; and the second part concerns how-to-vote cards. Bogus how-to-vote cards were an important part of one of the most disgraceful episodes in the history of Parliament. The Bill provides regulations for the approval of how-to-vote cards, as well as a bureaucracy to oversee the implementation of those regulations. Although I hate the word "bureaucracy", if the regulations can protect Parliament I shall have to agree to them. For the first time, the handing out of how-to-vote cards at polling booths will be controlled. The Liberal Party will not oppose this provision because it has become necessary as a result of the actions of certain members of the Australian Labor Party.

Bogus how-to-vote cards were distributed by members of the Australian Labor Party on the day of the Nunawading Province re-election, cards which supposedly allocated preferences on behalf of the Nuclear Disarmament Party_ Australian Labor Party officials did not tell members of the Nuclear Disarmament Party what was going

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on, probably because the Australian Labor Party was offside with members of the NDP because of decisions taken by the Prime Minister and his Federal colleagues. The NDP was on the lookout for what was going on.

Fortunately, one of the officials of the Nuclear Disarmament Party, Mr Martin Peake, complained to the Chief Electoral Officer, Mr Richardson, about the distribution of bogus how-to-vote cards that were designed to deceive voters. Mr Richardson was to say later that he thought the card could have misled voters; and because of that he referred the matter to the Chief Commissioner of Police for investigation. In short, Mr Richardson believed there had been a breach of the electoral laws-and how right he was!

At the same time the then Deputy Chief Electoral Officer sought advice from a noted electoral law expert about whether the card could constitute a breach of the electoral law. So two independent bodies, the Victoria Police and a constitutional expert, were examining the matter. Their investigations uncovered a great deal of evidence. I shall quote from the findings of the Select Committee of the Legislative Council which was established to examine the conduct of various officers of the Australian Labor Party on the day of the Nunawading Province re-election, 17 August 1985.

The Select Committee heard evidence that the Chief Commissioner of Police contacted the Nunawading CIB, which initiated an investigation into the matter. The police officers interviewed certain members of the ALP who had been recognised handing out the bogus cards. A senior detective sergeant told the committee:

We received no clear answers from these people who advised us that under legal advice they could not answer any questions.

They were backing out as quickly as they could! They were saying, "We won't answer any questions. Therefore we cannot be liable for any wrongdoing". They ducked for cover when the police attempted to interview them. Three persons in particular were interviewed: Mr Peter Batchelor, the State Secretary of the ALP; Mr Michael Salvaris, who was at that time a senior adviser to the Premier-it went as far as the Premier's office-and Mr Nick Nikolaidou-ifthat is the correct pronunciation.

The Hon. B. E. Davidson-Y Oll should stick to plumbing, son!

The Hon. K. M. SMITH-Maybe I should have stuck with plumbing. At least I will not grovel as much as members of the Labor Party grovelled in Nunawading!

Mr Batchelor told police that he had no knowledge of the card, and that the production of the card had nothing to do with the ALP. But things were to change quickly! Police officers left the meeting with Mr Batchelor confused and unable to discover where the alternative card had originated. As I said, Mr Batchelor claimed he knew nothing about it. Rubbish! The investigating officers did not believe those Australian Labor Party hacks, and they made certain recommendations as a result of their inquiries. Their recommendations included the following:

(a) that the file be sent for further investigation by a team of people having the necessary resources to complete the inquiry; and

(b) that the file be forwarded to police legal advisers for possible charges to be laid against Messrs. Nikolaidou, van Leeuwen, Slape and one other person.

After investigating the people to whom I have referred, the big crunch was soon to come.

The Hon. C. F. Van Buren-What was that?

The Hon. K. M. SMITH-Peter Batchelor admitted that he was a liar. He had previously said he had had nothing to do with the card and knew nothing about it.


But the headline in the Sun newspaper says it all: "I organised poll cards: ALP Chief'. The article states:

The State ALP Secretary, Mr Peter Batchelor, last night admitted he and other party members helped organise and distribute the Nunawading how-to-vote cards under investigation by police.

It did not take him long! It took him only two months to realise that he had been involved from the beginning! That man is still the State Secretary of the ALP.

The Hon. C. F. Van Boren-And a pretty capable one, too.

The Hon. K. M. SMITH-It is a disgraceful position for the Australian Labor Party to have put itself in.

The Hon. B. T. Pullen-He has won two elections. At least Batchelorwins.

The Hon. K. M. SMITH-He is a liar! He has admitted it himself.

The Hon. C. F. Van Boren interjected.

The Hon. K. M. SMITH-If you want to be associated with him as a liar, that is up to you!

The PRESIDENT -Order!

The Hon. C. F. VAN BUREN (Eumemmerring Province )-1 am not a liar! On a point of order, Mr President, Mr Smith called Mr Batchelor a liar. I have known Mr Batchelor for a long time and he is not a liar. I take offence at the remarks made by MrSmith.

The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province )-On the point of order, Mr President, Mr Smith did not call Mr Van Buren a liar. He accused Mr Batchelor of being a liar and he said that if Mr Van Buren wished to associate himself with Mr Batchelor that was his choice. Mr Smith cast no reflection on the integrity or honesty ofMr Van Buren; therefore, there is no point of order.

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-On the point of order, Mr President, I support what my colleague, Mr Knowles, has said. Mr Batchelor is a self .. acknowledged liar. That is all my colleague Mr Smith said. Mr Van Buren has misheard what was said and has incorrectly taken offence at the remarks made by Mr Smith.

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-On the point of order, Mr President, Mr Van Buren took offence at the words and imputation implied in Mr Smith's remarks and that is sufficient to sustain the point of order.

The PRESIDENT-Order! Not only must there be offence taken, but the Chair must find that there is ground for the offence.

Honourable members may have noticed that I called "Order" at the same time as Mr Van Buren took the point of order. I heard Mr Smith very carefully and I believe the words he used were that if Mr Van Buren wishes to be associated with Mr Batchelor as a liar, that is up to him.

Although it was clear Mr Smith had not intended to suggest that Mr Van Buren was a liar it could easily have been the conclusion Mr Van Buren drew and I understand that he would, therefore, object to the remarks. I am sure Mr Smith did not intend to suggest it, but it was capable of being interpreted in that way. I therefore ask Mr Smith, firstly, to make it clear that that was not his suggestion and, secondly, to rephrase his comment.

The Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern Province)-I make it clear that it was not my intention to say that Mr Van Buren was a liar. I withdraw the remark that Mr Van

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