GlobalFeminisms

ComparativeCaseStudiesof

Women’sActivismandScholarship

RUSSIA

Liubov’Vasil’evnaShtyleva

Interviewed by Natal’ia L’vovna Pushkareva

Moscow,Russia

May5th,2016

UniversityofMichigan

InstituteforResearchonWomenandGender

1136LaneHallAnnArbor,MI48109-1290

Tel:(734)764-9537

E-mail:um.gfp@umich.edu

Website:http://www.umich.edu/~glblfem

©RegentsoftheUniversityofMichigan,2015

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Liubov’Vasil’evnaShtylevawasbornin1956.ShegraduatedfromMurmanskPedagogicalTrainingCollege1andN.A.NekrasovKostromaStatePedagogicalInstitutein1975.From1975to1984,sheworkedasaschoolteacherofhistory,andlaterasadirectoroftheYoungPioneersandSchoolchildrenClubinMurmansk.In1986,shedefendedherdissertationandreceivedanadvanceddegreeasaCandidateofEducationalSciences.For15yearsshetaughteducationalscienceandpsychologyattheMurmanskStatePedagogicalInstitute,in2013shebeganworkattheInstituteforSocialPedagogyattheRussianAcademyofEducation.From2015,shehasservedasprincipalresearchassociateattheInstituteofChildhood,FamilyandUpbringingattheRussianAcademyofEducation.In1992,sheparticipatedinaninternshipintheUSinWomeninthePoliticalProcessProgram,andin2004sheservedinaninternshipwithanexpertprogramonissuesofgenderequalityinCanada.In1998sheparticipatedintheFirstAll-RussianSchoolonGenderResearchinTver’,in2000sheparticipatedintheprogramongenderresearchmethodologyforuniversitylecturersattheMoscowCenterforGenderStudies,thenlaterin2000-2001,sheledaneducationalresearchprojectentitled“PromotingGender-basedApproachesinPre-schoolEducation.”ThefirstRussianteachingaidongenderapproachesinpre-schooleducationwaspublishedunderherguidanceunderthetitleGender-basedApproachinPre-schoolEducation:TheoryandPractice(Murmansk:Milori,LLC,2001).From2002to2005,sheservedasaprojectconsultantfortheRegionalProgramfortheSupportofWomen"APathforSuccess,"in2005-2010,shewascoachandorganizeroftheproject"WomenCan!"(withthesupportoftheNorwegianPeople’sAid).

AmongherworksarethemonographsTheStudyofStudents’GenderCharacteristics(SaintPetersburg:Piter,2003);TheFactorofSexinEducation:AGender-basedApproachandAnalysis(Moscow:PERSE,2008);"TheProblemofSex"inPedagogicalTheoryandEducationPractice(Moscow,2011).

ShehasnumerousgovernmentawardsandcertificatesofmeritandwasawardedadiplomabytheInternationalLabourOrganizationandtheUnionofJournalistsofRussiaforherworkonquestionsofgenderequalityinRussia.

Natal’iaL’vovnaPushkarevawasbornonSeptember23rd,1959inMoscow,Russia.SheiscurrentlyaProfessor,ChiefResearchFellow,andtheHeadoftheWomen’sandGenderStudiesDepartmentattheInstituteofEthnologyandAnthropologyattheRussianAcademyofSciences.Herinterestsincludegenderhistory,historyoffamilyrelations,thesocialanthropologyoftheacademiccommunity,aswellasthehistoryofsexualityinmedieval,modern,andcontemporaryRussia.ThechiefeditoroftheyearbookSotsial'naiaistoriia(SocialHistory),shealsoservesaspresidentoftheRussianAssociationforResearchinWomen’sHistory.From1981to2016,shehaseditedmorethanthirtyessaycollections,publisheddozensofarticlesforbothacademicandnon-academicmagazines,andwrittendictionaryandencyclopediaentriesaswellas

1 MurmanskPedagogicalTrainingCollegewasthepresentMurmanskArcticStateUniversity(MASU).ItwasnamedtheMurmanskStatePedagogicalInstitute(Murmanskiigosudarstvennyipedagogicheskiiinstitut)from1956–2002.Source:“MASU:historyandfacts.”MASU.AccessedJan17,2020.

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monographs.Pushkarevaisconsideredtobeaprincipalfounderofthefieldofwomen’sstudiesinRussia.

TheGlobalFeminismsProjectisacollaborativeinternationaloralhistoryprojectthatexaminesfeministactivism,women'smovements,andacademicwomen'sstudiesinsitesaroundtheworld.HousedattheUniversityofMichigan,theprojectwasstartedin2002withagrantfromtheRackhamGraduateSchool.ThevirtualarchiveincludesinterviewsfromwomenactivistsandscholarsfromBrazil,China,India,Nicaragua,Poland,andtheUnitedStates.

OurcollaboratorinRussiaisDr.Natal’iaL.Pushkareva,whogatheredadiversegroupoffeministscholar-activistsandcolleaguesfortheRussiaportionoftheGlobalFeminismsProjectandconductedthemajorityoftheinterviews.OurworkinRussiawassupportedbyaCollaborativePlanningGrantfromUniversityofMichigan’sInstituteforResearchonWomenandGender.

ANoteontheRussianEducationalSystem2:Atthetimewhentheintervieweewasattendingschools, theSovietUnioneducationalsystem contained 2 parts: the mandatory basic education (elementary school andsecondaryschools)andhighereducation(universities).Childrenusually enter elementary school at age6-7 and stay for4 years, afterwhichtheyentersecondaryschoolsandstayuntilage15whentheyfinishgrade8.Thentheycan choose to a) stay in the secondary school for 2 more years to prepare for theuniversityentranceexam,b)gototechnicums,collegesthatteachtechnicalskills,orc)startworking.Universityeducationwasfreeandhighlyspecialized.Studentstookclassesinfieldstheyplantoworkonandwereassignedjobsaftergraduation.CurrentRussianeducationalsystemisverysimilartothatduringtheUSSR.

2Source:“EducationintheSovietUnion.”Wikipedia.AccessedOctober30,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Soviet_Union.“RussianSchools:Structureofsystem,agesofentryandcertificates.”Justlanded.AccessedOctober30,2019.https://www.justlanded.com/english/Russia/Russia-Guide/Education/Russian-Schools“EducationintheSovietEra.”FactsandDetails.AccessedOctober30,2019.http://factsanddetails.com/russia/Education_Health_Transportation_Energy/sub9_6a/entry-5141.html

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Natal’iaL’vovnaPushkareva:LiubovVasil’evnaShtyleva,SeniorResearchFellowattheInstituteofChildhood,Family,andSocializationattheRussianAcademyofEducation3.FounderoftheWomen'sCongressofKolaPeninsula4.Goodafternoon,Liubov Vasil’evna. First, I would like to thank you for participating in ourinterview and ask you to tell me about yourself. How did you realize that youneededtocreateawomen'sorganization?Howdiditfitinwithyourprofessionalactivities?Pleasetellme,ingeneral,aboutyourself.Wherewereyouborn?Whathaveyoudoneinlife?Whatareyouinterestedinnow?

Liubov’Vasil’evnaShtyleva:IwasborninMurmansk5.Iamthefirstgenerationofurbandwellers inour family.All ofmy rootswere in theVologda region6.Myparentswerepeasants. Inthe late40'sorearly50's theymovedtoMurmanskandworkedthereaslaborers. That is to say, I come from a family of workers and peasants. I lived inMurmanskallmylifeuntilthreeyearsagowhenImovedtoMoscow.Igraduatedfromteacher-trainingcollegeinMurmanskbecausemymotheralwaystoldme:“youneedtostandonyourownfeetandbeindependent.”Bothofmyparentsspenttheirentireliveshappilymarried(nodivorceorfamilybreakdown).Idon'tknowwheremymothergotthisidea,butsheinstilleditinme.

Moreover, she made certain--that is, she insisted--that I finish only eight grades7ofschool and then go to teacher-training college. After graduating from college, ImatriculatedtothePedagogical Institute8– Ireallywantedto learn. Iwasexcitedandcurious. It's silly to say that I really wanted to take part in a student constructionbrigade.9Itwas1970, or the late sixties, or early seventieswhen thismovementwas

3RussianAcademyofEducationwasfoundedin1912andiscurrentlytheoldestresearchandeducationalpsychologicalinstituteinRussia.(“About.”PsychologicalInstituteRussiaAcademyofEducation.AccessedOctober28,2019.https://www.pirao.ru/en/)4Women’sCongressofKolaPeninsulaisanorganizationthatpromoteswomen’srightsbyestablishingsheltersforwomenwhoaresubjecttoviolence,providingconfidentialphonelinesforwomen,buildingupregionalwomenorganizationnetworks,andmanyotherthings.(“Women’sCongressofKolaPeninisula.”Owl.ru.AccesedOctober28,2019http://www.owl.ru/eng/women/org002/index.htm)

5MurmanskisaportcityandtheadministrativecenteroftheMurmanskOblast(whichislikeastateorprovince)inthefarnorthwestpartofRussia.IthashighwayandrailwayaccesstotherestofEurope,andthenorthernmosttrolleybussystemonEarth.(“Murmansk.”Wikipedia.AccessedOctober28,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murmansk)6Vologdaisanoblast(whichislikeastateorprovince)inNorthwesternRussia.Ithasabundanthistoricmonumentsandlargereservesforwaterandwoods.(“VologdaOblast.”Wikipedia.AccessedOctober30,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vologda_Oblast)

7Itwaspossibletoenrollinatradeschoolaftercompletingonly8grades

8N.A.NekrasovKostromaStatePedagogicalInstitute.Seefootnote2onPage2formoreinformation.

9Studentconstructionbrigadesweregroupsofuniversitystudentsthatworkedinconstructionduringschoolhiatuses.Thesebrigadeswerefirstestablishedin1959andcontinuedtooperateafterthe

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gainingmomentum.AfterseeingmanyuniversitystudentsfromLeningrad10,membersofconstructionbrigades,walkthestreetsofMurmanskintheiruniformsinsummer,Ireallywantedtobeauniversitystudent,justwantedtojointhem.BecauseIwasalwaysa good student and had almost all straight A's, the teacher-training collegerecommended that I go to college, so I enrolled in two of them at once. Incorrespondence courses11in Murmansk, and, just in case, at the faculty of literaturebecauseIlovedbothliteratureandhistory.

NP:Whatyearwasthat?

LS:Itwas1970.And…IknewthatifIwasacorrespondence-coursestudent,Icouldn'talsobeinastudentconstructionbrigade.Ihadtoenrollasafull-timestudent.Andonemonth later theKomsomol12gavemea recommendation, and Iwasacceptedwithouttaking the entrance exams as a Komsomol activist to the Kostroma PedagogicalInstitute.13

Theyhad an amazingdepartment there,whichwas called the Faculty of Pioneer andKomsomol Work (unofficially); officially, it was the Department of History andPedagogy. They trained teachers of history and social studies and educators whospecializedinworkingwithPioneers.Iheardaboutthisdepartmentfrommyteacher-training college’s fine arts teacher, who was taking correspondence courses at theinstituteintheDepartmentofGraphicArt...Andshetalkedwithsuchadmirationaboutthe great people who took part in student construction brigades and agitationbrigades.14It was exactly what I needed. However, it wasn't so simple because theschoolwas in another city, in CentralRussia. I saw a completely differentway of lifethere.FiveyearslaterIgraduatedandreturnedtoMurmansk.BecauseIgraduatedfrom

dissolutionoftheSovietgovernment.("Studentconstructionbrigade."Wikipedia.February17,2018.AccessedMarch07,2018.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_construction_brigade.)

10LeningradisacityinnorthwesternRussia.ThecitywasnamedafterVladimirLenin,theformerpremierofSovietUnion,afterhisdeathin1924.In1991,thecitychangeditsnametoSaintPetersburgafterthecollapseofSovietUnion.St.PetersburgisnowthesecondlargestcityinRussiaafterMoscow.(“SaintPetersburgRussia.”Encyclopedia.AccessedOctober30,2019https://www.encyclopedia.com/places/commonwealth-independent-states-and-baltic-nations/cis-and-baltic-political-geography/saint-petersburg-russia.“SaintPetersburg.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember20,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petersburg)11Correspondencecourseis“acourseofstudyinwhichyoustudyathome,receiving,andsendingoffworkbypost,email,etc.”(“CorrespondenceCourse.”CambridgeDictionary.AccessedNovember02,2019.https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/correspondence-course)12TheKomsomol,ortheCommunistYouthLeague,wasastate-runyouthorganizationthat,fromthe1930s,thatfocusedontheeducationofyoungpeopleasproperSovietcitizensandthemobilizationofyouthforagitation,educational,andsocialwork.MembershipandsuccessintheKomsomol,bothofwhichonehadtoearn,providedcertainbenefits,suchasacceptanceintoschoolswithouttakingtheentranceexams.13N.A.NekrasovKostromaStatePedagogicalUniversity.Seefootnote2onpage2formoreinformation.

14Agitationbrigades(agitbrigady)weresmallgroupsofenthusiastsorprofessionalswhoworkedtoraisepublicconsciousnessofsocialandpoliticalissues.

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theFacultyofPioneerandKomsomolWork,andIwasaKomsomolactivist,theinstitutegavemeajobrecommendationforKomsomolworkinMurmansk.And…

NP:Didmanywomenat that timegetrecommendationsgetpaid forKomsomolwork?15

LS:Itwasn'texceptional!Wehadadean,AnatoliiNikolaevichLutoshkin16,wasaratherinterestingperson,asocialpsychologist(atthattimesocialpsychologywasanewfield).At one point in his life he was also a Komsomol activist and worker; he studiedmotivationmechanisms.Hetoldusthatifyoucouldexplainwhysomepeoplebecomesocially active and others live their whole lives passively, youwouldwin the NobelPrize.

Andhe, byhis own initiative,wrote…Because Iwas referred therebyKomsomol, hewrotetotheMurmanskKomsomolthat"yousentussomeoneandwetrainedher.Nowyougetyourprofessional,she’strained,sheknowsherwork,andsoon."AtthattimeinMurmansk a new district was created: Pervomaiskii. The city had only two districtsprior:OktiabrskiiandLeninskii17.Inaddition,apoliticalinfrastructurewascreatedforthe new district. That means it got a district party committee, district Komsomolcommittee and so forth. The district Komsomol committee had a job opening for theSecretarywhoworkswithcollegestudentsandschoolchildrenandwhoisinchargeoftheyoung-adultdivision.

It all came together.Youmight think it allhappenedaccidentally,but Ibelieve that ithappenedforareason,becauseallmylifeIhadapassionandaburningdesireforsocialparticipation.IevenrememberthatwhenIwasfourorfive,Istartedtoholdmeetingsat thedaycare center. Iwould askother children to sit in rows, and I said: “let's talkaboutwhatwearegoingtodo.”Youknow?Irecall,Irememberthatsowell,whatitwaslike,andinfact,Ididn'tknowthenwhattosay,butIwasastoundedthattheyactuallysatinrowsandlistened.Itwasaveryexcitingtime...

NP:Inthemid-1970s?

15ThetranslatornotesthatitwasunusualforactiviststohaveapayingjobwiththeKomsomol.16AnatoliiNikolaevichLutoshkinisareveredfacultymemberoftheKonstromaStateUniversity’sPedagogyandPsychologydepartment,wherehefocusedonthedevelopmentofchildren’scollectives.ComplementinghisactiveservicewiththeKostromaKomsomol,Lutoshkinalsoheadedasub-department:TheoriesandMethodsofPioneerandKomsomolWork.HeauthoredbookssuchasThePsychologyofWorkintheKomsorg(withLevIl’ichUmanskii;Moscow:Molodaiagvardia,1975);EmotionalLifeoftheChildren’sCollective(Moscow:Znanie,1978);HowtoLeadtheWay(Moscow:Prosveshchenie,1978).17WiththeadventoftheSovietUnion,countlesslocations,fromstreetstobuildingstopublicsquares,wererenamedtocommemorateimportantdatesandevents.PervomaiskiitranslatesasFirstofMayandreferstoInternationalWorkersDay,celebratedonthatdateandterriblyimportanttoapoliticalmovementmeanttochampiontheworkingclass.OktiabrskiiissimplyOctoberandindicatestheOctoberRevolutionof1917thatsawthevictoryoftheBolsheviksovertheRussiantsaristaristocracy.LeninskiiistheadjectivalformofLenin,thenameoftheSovietUnion'sinitialleaderandoneofitsmostimportantfigures.

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LS: Yes, I graduated in 1975. From 1975 to 1982, I worked as the Secretary for thePervomaiskii District Komsomol Committee, that is in the lowest level of theadministrative structure. Next, I was the Secretary of the Murmansk MunicipalKomsomolCommittee18.

NP:It'sahigh-levelstaffposition.

LS:InMoscow,yes, itwouldbeahigh-levelposition.But inMurmansk,asmallercity,whichhad less thanhalfamillionresidents, itwasanother thing... Iknewthat thingslookeddifferenttoMuscovitesfromtheattitudeofmyacademicadviser...

NP:Soyouenrolledingraduateschool?

LS: No, I did not. But when I came back to Murmansk, I began to work within theKomsomol, and I was so excited, it was my calling despite my insecurities. I felt souncomfortablewhen Iwas talkingwith schoolprincipalsbecause it seemed that theywere such busy and serious people, and I was bothering them about Pioneers andKomsomol members, and they responded accordingly. That is, they, of course, knewthat they could not avoid the district Komsomol structures, and, concomitantly, thedistrictPartycommittee.ForthemtheKomsomolandPartywereunquestionableandholyasitwasformost.Butwe,youngandenthusiasticKomsomolmembers,gotinthewayoforganizingtheeducationalprocess. Ihadseniorcounselorsundermeaswell -thesystemwasabit ridiculous.TheMinistryofEducation funded theirpositions,butwe organized and managed the work. Of course, the schools tried to use thesecounselors for their ownpurposes: as substitute teachers, as someone towhom theycoulddelegateadministrativework.Atthesametime,wetriedtopushourownagendaforworkingwithchildren:wediscussedsocialissues,organizedpaperandscrapmetalrecyclingdrives.

NP: How did you come by your passion for research, gathering and analyzingdata?

LS:After doing thiswork for a year and a half, I realized that Iwas putting somucheffort into it, and I loved it, Iwasalwaysdoing somethingnew.Theexperience Ihadwithagitationbrigadesduringmytimeattheinstitutewashelpful.ButIrealizedthatifI leftnoonewouldpickupthiswork.Nothingwouldbeleft.Moreover,mysensewas,that if things don't continue afterwards, what was the point of doing it? I contactedAnatolii Nikolaevich Lutoshkin; he was still the dean of our faculty in Kostroma. Iwantedtocreatearesearchproject;Iwantedtobeinvolvedinacademicwork,tothinkitthrough.Torecordit.Hewroteback:“it’sgreatthatyou’repassionate,butyoulivein

18ThedistrictortownKomsomolCommitteesguideandsuperviseprimaryorganizationsoftheKomsomol.TheyalsoelectbureausandsecretariestosuperviseallKomsomolworkandresponsibilities.TheregionalandrepublicKomsomolorganizationsareonelevelabovethedistrictortownKomsomolCommitteesandtheysupervisedistrictlevelKomsomolCommittees.TheyalsohaveacentralCommitteewhichisformedbyseveralsecretariesandasmallerbureau.ThehighestleveloforganizationintheKomsomolistheAll-UnionCongresswhichsupervisesallbranchesofKomsomol.(“Hulicka,Karel.“TheKomsomol.”Proquest.AccessedNovember04,2019.https://search.proquest.com/docview/1291571580?accountid=14667”)

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a place with no academic council, no academic infrastructure, so you’ll need anaffiliation”–Ihadnoideawhathemeant.

He said something like this: “keep doingwhat you are doing, think about it.” And hedirected me to Boris Zinov’evich Volfov19.Volfov often came to Murmansk to leadlecturesonorganizationalmethodsfororganizersofextracurricularactivities.

NP:Hewasapedagogue.

LS:Yes,that’swhatyoumightcallhim.Well,hewasassistantprincipalonsocializationofchildren,aswesaidthen.Thatis,Ihadknownandseenhim,andforushewastheguru, the man who wrote the textbook on the subject. He was really such a well-regardedfigureintheworldofeducation.Yes,butpersonallyIdidn’tknowhimatthetime. So life came together such that I was sent to, hang on, in nineteen eightysomething…Well,whenIwentovertothemunicipalKomsomolcommittee.

NP:Sointhebeginningofthe1980s.

LS:Yes,yes,yes.SotheysentmetostudyintheregionalschoolforKomsomolworkersin Novgorod20. It was just for continuing education courses. There most Komsomolworkerswerewomen,veryfewweremenbecausetheschoolwasforthoseKomsomoldivisionsconcernedwithschool-agechildrenandyoungadults.Andduringourtraining,theCentralCommitteeoftheKomsomoldecidedtohaveaconference.AcoupleofstaffmemberswerepresentfromtheInstituteonGeneralIssuesinChild-RaisingattheUSSRAcademyofPedagogicalSciences...

Nadezhda Petrovna Ivanova was there as well. She was mostly involved with LittleOctobrists.21Shedevotedheracademiccareertostudyingthem.Hertasktherewastohelp refine our presentations, tomake themmore “civilized,” or, howmight I put it,more academically oriented. My presentation was about how to educate and trainyoungactivists...

NP:Withoutregardtogender?Notfemaleactivists,butjustactivists?

LS: Just activists, yes. Because activists – both boys and girls… Although there wasalwaysthisobviousissuethatthereweremanymoregirlsamongKomsomolactivists,secretaries of primary Komsomol organizations, and class Komsomol organizations.

19BorisZinov’evichVolfovheadedtheUniversityoftheRussianAcademyofEducation,andwastheauthorofseveralbooksonpedagogyandearlychildhooddevelopment.20NovgorodistheadministrativecenterforNovgorodOblast(whichislikeastateorprovince)innorthwesternRussia.ThecityliesalongtheVolkhovRiverandisoneoftheoldestcitiesinRussiawithover1000yearsofhistory.In1992,UNESCOrecognizedthecityasaWorldHeritageSite.(“VelikyVolkhov.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember04,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veliky_Novgorod)

21“LittleOctobrists”wastheyouthorganizationforchildrenbetween7and9yearsold.AfterthattheytypicallyjointheYoungPioneersorganization.("LittleOctobrists."Wikipedia.February11,2018.AccessedMarch07,2018.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Octobrists.)

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Nowoneofour scholars,Tat’ianaMal’kovskaia22—at that timeshewas investigatingthisissue—andshetalkedaboutthisgenderdisparity.Andatthetimeitwasblamedonthe fact thatpublic schoolsoperatedunderwomen's rulesbecause increasinglymorewomen work there. So it was assumed that women just liked to have other womenaroundwhowouldbeeasiertoworkwith.

NP:Interesting.

LS: By theway, this idea is still alive today. That's the reasoning. I actually think it'ssexist,butfemaleresearchersarethoughtlesslyrepeatingthisinanity,andtheyhavenoideathattheyaresaying:“yes,weareprofessionaleducators,butasprofessionals–weare‘third-ratesturgeon!’"23Menareteachersbutwhoarewe?Weharmourselves.Andnow we have the feminization of education and other things. But that’s a differentsubject...

After Nadezhda Ivanova looked at my presentation, she said, "My dear, you are sotalented!Youneed tobe inacademia.Let’shaveyoupolishyourpaper, sendusyourapplication along with your abstract and we’ll publish it." I took all this advice andthoughtaboutit,wenthome,fortwomonths…Andshesaid,“justlikeaddtwowordstoeachlinesothatit’salittlelonger,”andIdutifullyaddedtwowordstoeveryline.Thatis, I tookwhatshesaid literallyanddidexactly that.And then I sentmyabstractandarticle to the institute on General Issues in Child-Raising at the USSR Academy ofPedagogicalSciencesinMoscow,totheheadofthelaboratoryofKomsomolandPioneerwork, to, if I’mnotmistaken, Iashchenko, Iashchenko. Ineversawhim—theyjusttoldme to send it tohim—and I sent it.And it sohappened thathehaddied.That is,mypacketwithmyarticlegottohisoffice,andhe,Ithink,washitbyacarthenightbefore.Andhedied.Hewas a very respectedperson, andhe…was a close friendwithBorisZinov’evichVol’fov.AndafterIashchenko’sdeath,whentheystartedtogothroughhispapers, they found my packet with my article. And Volfov, in memory of his friend,Iashchenko,agreedtoworkwithme.That'showmyworkbegan.Itwentonforalongtime; I became affiliatedwith the graduate school at that institutewhen I left formymaternity leave.So itwas1979,andIarrived literallysevenmonthspregnant.OtherslookedatmeasifIhadlostmymindandsaid,“firstdeliveryourbabyandthencomework with us.” But deep inside myself I knew that if I take any time off, if I didn'tbecome formally affiliated, that is, if I didn't have a schedule andplans, right?Then Iwould...wellyouknowhowitalwaysis.Youtellyourself:“well,letthisthingjustpast,

22Tat’ianaMal’kovskaiaisascholarofpedagogyandearlychildhooddevelopment.SheauthoredsuchtextsasTheSocialActivityofSchoolchildren(Leningrad:Znanie,2978)andTheFamilyandPowerinRussiainthe17thand18thCenturies(Moscow:CheRo,2005)23ThisisareferencetoanovelbyBulgakov,MasterandMargarita,firstpublishedin1966.Thebookwaswrittenbetween1928-1940underStalin’sregimeandwasnotpublisheduntil1966.Thebookcombinesdarksatiricalcomponents,Christianphilosophyandsupernaturalcomponents.ManycriticsconsiderthenoveltobeoneofthebestSovietsatiresinthe20thcentury.Thebookhasnowbeentranslatedintomultiplelanguages.Theexpression‘Third-ratesturgeon’isanamplificationofaphrasethatbecamepopularincommonusage.Init,apartyissaidtohaveserved“sturgeonofthesecondfreshness”indicatingthewholeaffairassecond-rate.Sovietreaderssubsequentlyplayfullyappliedtheepithettoanyphenomenondeemedsubstandard.(“TheMasterandMargarita.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember04,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_Margarita)

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inanotheryear,”and then timepassesandmaybeanother thingschanges,and in theend nothing happens. I had a strong intuition that I had to startmy scholarly careerthen.WhileIwasonmaternityleave,IreadbooksbyKon,includingPsychologyofEarlyAdolescenceandsoon.24IreadandIreadandIreadallthatIcouldfind.And…

NP:Andyouenteredgraduateschoolsinthemiddleofthe1980s?

LS:No,no,itwasin1979.

NP:1979.Andwhendidyourdefendyourdissertation,which…?

LS:In1986.

NP:Onceyourdaughterhadgrownupandonce…

LS: My daughter grew up at her own pace and so did my dissertation. That is, yes,everythingcametogetheratthesametime,anditwasnoteasy.

NP:Whatroledidthesubjectofwomenhaveinyourdissertation?Didithavearoleor…?

LS: The subject of women did not have a role in my dissertation. The title of thedissertationwas"TheMutualInfluenceofSchoolandMilitaryKomsomolOrganizationsintheCommunistUpbringingofHigh-SchoolStudents."

NP:Howthendidthesubjectofwomenshowupinyourprofessionalcareer?

LS:Thesubjectofwomenfirstshowedupinmysocialactivism,notinmyprofessionalcareer.

NP:Attheendofthe1980s.

LS:At theendof the1980s.Afterperestroika25began, itbecameobvious toeveryonethat a mindless, senseless, and destructive power had enveloped our enormouscountry.26Andnoonewasaskinguswhatwewantedorneeded.Andwhilemenwerestillvisiblethere,,noonethoughtaboutwomen.Andnoonelistenedtoourvoices.Ofcourse,thereweredifficultiesandchallenges—wehadmorethanenoughofthemintheSovietera—butwhenperestroikastarted,everythingbecamemorecomplicatedstill.Allof theseproblemsmultiplied.This includesemptystoreshelves. Itwaschallenging tobuygroceries,tomakemeals,etc.

24IgorKonwasascientistandsociologistthatstudiedthesexualityofmenandchildreninthecontextofSovietgenderstudies.Kondiedin2011attheageof82.Borusyak,Liubov.“InMemoriamIgorKon:apersonalview.”OpenDemocracyRussiaandBeyond.https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/Liubov-borusyak/in-memoriam-igor-kon-personal-view.(23May,2017).

25PerestroikaisaneconomicreformthattookplaceintheSovietUnionduringthe1980s.ItiscommonlylinkedtothethenSovietleaderMikhailGorbachev.Thereformaimedatintroducingmoreliberalandmarket-likeeconomytoimprovepeople’slivingstandardsandtoboosttheeconomy.However,thereformpromptedsevereinflationandalsocausedhugepoliticalandsocialtensionsthatcreatedeconomicchaosandsocietalconflicts.PerestroikaisregardedtobeoneofthemajorcatalystsforthedissolutionoftheSovietUnion.(“Perestroika.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember06,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika)

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IcancompareMoscowwiththerestofthecountry.Forusitwasawful.Whentheytellme now, inMoscow Imean, that ”it was tough for us,” I always say, "Guys, I visitedMoscow then, and I saw meat, cheese, yogurt, and milk.” When in 1980… 1981 myadvisorwentonabusinesstriptoMurmansk,heaskedmeoverthephone—thiswasinMay—"Liubov, what should I bring you?" I didn’t even hesitate, "Boris Zinovievich,pleasebringtwocontainersofmilk, threecontainersofcream,andtwoplastic jarsofMoscowsourcream!"Hedidn'tbelieveme,hethoughtIwasjoking.Butwereallyhadproblems with that. And if you didn’t have connections... I didn’t have any; it wasunacceptableforme,asthesecretaryofthemunicipalcommittee,to…

NP:Togetsomethingillicitly.

LS: Yes, to get something illicitly. . We had no food deliveries for our municipalKomsomol committee. Moscow differed from the periphery, and the supply of Partyagenciesdifferedfromthatofgovernmentagenciestoo.Thepartyagenciesmadesurethey were taken care of, and the Komsomol never had that status. It wasn’t asimportant…

NP:Woulditbepossibletosaythattheideaforwomen'sassociationscameaboutbecauseoftheshortages,thelines,andothersuchproblemsthatthecountyfacedintheeighties?

LS:HowshouldIsaythis?Thereisalink,butIwouldsaythatiswasprimarilybecausewomen desired to, and understood that it was necessary to, be involved in politicalprocesses.

NP:Whendidthisdesireappear?AttheendoftheGorbachevera27orrightatthebeginning?At theendof the1980s?Orat the startof the1990s?Whencanweplaceitapproximately?

LS: It was around 1986-1987. Around 1986-1987. Perestroika began in earnestsometime in 1986, then everything unraveled with awful force. And I came toconsciousnessrightbeforethattime.Hangon,I’llexplain.Myseconddaughterwasbornin1988,andin1989Iwenttotakecontinuingeducationcourses.

NP:Where?

LS:InMoscow.

NP:InMoscow.

27TheGorbachevEraistheperiodwhenMikhailGorbachevwastheheadoftheCommunistPartyintheUSSR(1985-1991).Duringtheperiod,Gorbachevlaunchedtwomajorreforms:perestroikaandglasnost(“openness”.SloganforGorbachev’spoliticalreformformoretransparencyandopenness).Gorbachevaimedatincreasingeconomicandpoliticalvitality.However,thepoliciescausedpolitical,economic,andsocietalchaosandwerecatalystsforthedissolutionoftheUSSR.(“MikhailGorbachev.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember06,2019.“TheGorbachevera:perestroikaandglasnost.”EncyclopediaBritannica.AccessedNovember06,2019.https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/The-Gorbachev-era-perestroika-and-glasnost“Glasnost.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember06,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasnost)

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LS: At that time, yes, in 1986I defended my dissertation, while I taught history andsocialstudiesataschool,andIlovedworkingthere.IlovedworkingintheKomsomol,Ilovedworkingintheschool.Itcametomeeasilyandnaturally.It'smydisposition,mytemperament, children…. I still think that no one ismore powerful or influential in aschoolthanateacher.Andateacherhastobesuchanauthorityintheclassroominthesensethatyoucan’tputainspectorbehindhim/her.IsaywhatIthinkisnecessaryinclass.It’sapowerfulposition.Ifyouwanttochangethemindsetofanation,youneedtoworkwithitsteachers.

NP:Howdidthisexperiencehelpunitewomenandthecreation…?

LS:Ithelpedbecause…

NP:Tellmeabouthowthewomen'sorganizationwasestablished.

LS:It'sfunnythatourwomen'sorganizationoriginatedfromawomen'sclub.Andthatwomen's club began with the creation of school studio "Charm." I know: it’s anembarrassing name for a school from which women’s organization grew. It was in198—Idon’t remembernow—four,maybe, that Iwent over…Wait, no, itwas after Idefendedmydissertation,somewherearound1987thatIwenttoworkattheinstitute,andIwasworkingon…

NP:Whichinstitute?

LS: The Pedagogical Institute. Of course, I was teaching pedagogy at the philologydepartmentandthephysicsandmathematicsdepartmentandsoon.Andwhiledoingtheselectures,Ireturnedtosocialpedagogy,totheeffects,sotospeak,oninteractionsandcommunications. Iwasgathering informationonwhatwewouldnowcallgenderdifferences.Thentheywerecalledsex-roledifferences.Andwiththeinterpretationthatwaspossibleat that time.Howwomenandmenaresupposed tobe,howwomenaresupposedtoact,howmenaresupposedtoact.Andasaresult, Igatheredasufficientamountofinformationforadecentcasestudy.Andthen…Atoneoftheseminars,Imetpsychologistsandsawhowtheyconducttrainings,andIreallywantedtolearnhowtodoit.Usingmyownmaterials,Istartedconductingmyowntrainings,whichwereso...semi-feminist–inthesensethatIintuitivelyhadthisideathatawomanshouldbeself-reliant,thatshecanchooseherowndestiny,makeherowndecisions.However,becauseall of this happens in interactions between women and men, she has to developrelationswithmeninonewayoranother.Soeverythingwasthismix.Acoregroupwasformed out of thosewomenwho came tomy seminars.Many differentwomenwereamongthem.Somecametolearnhowtowalkgracefully,tosmile,toattractmen.Therewerealsowomenwho,afterourseminars(becausewedefinitelydiscussedwhatwasgoingonpoliticallyinthecountry)said,"look,let'screateourownclub,somesortofanorganization,whichwouldempowerus!What'shappeningisadisgrace!"Andthefirstgroupofcollaboratorscamefromthisclub.Infact,themostactivewerethosewhousedtobeKomsomolactivists.Myclosestassociate,IrinaFogt,wasalsoacomputerscienceteacheratatechnicalschool,andamathteacherbytraining.Andwebeganthisclubaspartners.

NP:Andhowdidyoucalltheclub?

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LS:“Liubava.”Ourfirstclubwascalled“Liubava.”“Liubava,”yes.Afterayearbothofuswere profoundly disappointed: we learned that we had become game directors forthosewomenwhowantedtofeignamoreinterestinglife.Weweren'thappywiththisatall.Allthemoresobecausewehadoursocialandpoliticalviews,andweknewthatpies,conversations,recipeexchanges,allkindsofcourses– for instance,howtocuthairathomeandsavemoneybynotgoing toahairdresser. Itwas thatkindof timeandyouhadtoworkoutstrategiestogetby.

Inowknowthatwehadbeenrelyingonasurvivalstrategy,notadevelopmentstrategy.Andadevelopmentstrategymeant—weunderstood,oratleastIunderstood—theywehad to do something different, bigger, stronger, and more organized. I couldn'tarticulate it then,butIhadthis idea.Andin1992Iwenttotakecontinuingeducationcoursesforteachersinhighereducation.Myhusbandstayedwiththechildren.Otherswould say, "Howcanyou leave?Youhave two children."And I responded, "I’mnot asingle mom. I have a husband." I made it clear that in our family both of us wereresponsibleforraisingourchildren.Igavehimanopportunitytogrow.Hewasacoach,andheaspired to raiseOlympicchampions.For the first tenyearsofourmarriage, itwas like Iwasa sailor’swife: that is,hewasneverhome inwinter,hewasalwaysatsomepractices,and lived in terribleconditions in thestickswiththekidshecoached.But all the time…hewould comehome for threedays and then leave again, over andover. I stayed with our child in the polar night: work, daycare, and so on. It waschallengingbutIbelievedthatIneededtogivehimanopportunitytogrow.

NP:DidtheLiubavaClubsupportallofyouandthat’swhyyoucametogetheratthetime,inthelate1980s?

LS:Yes.It'shardtosay...Youknow,whenyouareavoidingthinkingaboutbadthings,youtendtodistractandbusyyourselfwithotheractivities.Inaddition,ofcourse,tothefactthatyoustillhavetotakecareofyourfamily.Somepeoplehavemoreduties,some– less. You have a job, you have to go towork every day, to prepare forwork. I'm ateacher, Ineed toprepareall the time for lecturesandclasses.And in1992 Iwent toMoscowtoattendmycourses.Moscowwasseethingandstirringeverywhere.Iwasinclassforhalfoftheday,andthenIwenttothelibrary.Ialwaysdidsomethingatnight.All kinds of eventswere happening, VDNKh28had an exhibition inMarch –Women'sWorld–andIwentthereregularly,likeamaniac,metothers,networked...

Yes,andatthistimealongside…orfromallthissocialstressfromeverythingthatwasgoing,fromanunderstandingofwhatwas…thechallengeofourtime,thatweneedtogrow,todosomething,otherwiseyou’llfalltolowestsocialrung,Isuddenlydiscoveredmy talent for journalismIwas always great at writing essays. And here... "Ostapwas

28VDNKhistheacronymfortheExhibitionofAchievementsofNationalEconomyoftheUSSR.VDNKhisapermanenttradeshowandpark,firstopenedin1939,toshowcasetheachievementsoftheUSSRthroughacollectionofexpositions,museums,andotherattractions.Accordingtoitswebsite,theVDNKhistheworld’slargestexposition,museumandrecreationalcomplex.(AboutVDNH.AccessedMarch08,2018.http://vdnh.ru/en/about/.)

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carriedaway."29.Ibegantowrite.Isubmittedarticlestonewspapers,theyinvitedmetowork for them and even paidme.Well, because I couldn’twork two jobs officially, Ireceivedonlyroyalties.IwaswritingallthetimeandforthatIbecameacelebrityinmyregion,amediapersonality.Iwasofteninterviewed;Iappearedonradio,ontelevisionandinnewspapers.

WhenIwasinMoscowin1992ImetthewomenwhoatthattimewerecreatingthefirstMoscow women's clubs. For example... I'm not certain if I remember her last namecorrectly, Irina..., Women's Business Club. In fact, there was also a newspaper, theBusiness Woman. Now Irina sometimes appears as a psychologist on natioanaltelevision.

NP:Korchagina.

LS:Yes,Korchagina. IrinaKorchagina.Yes. I…IalsosawMashaArbatovathen.30Iwasreally frightened by her, by the way. Not exactly frightened, but I had this sense ofdanger.We never talked one on one, Shewas speaking about something at the clubthen. The meetings were held in one of the GUM's outbuildings.31And as she wasspeakingIhadthissensekindof, thatwas likethishedgehogwith longspikes.Like ifyoucomeclose,youmightgetpricked.Svetlana[Grigorievna]Aivazova,32invitedhertotheclub.That'showwecreatedour…

NP:Networks.

LS:WithSvetlanaAivazova.Isawherthenforthefirsttime.IrememberthatIdidnottalk toher at that time. ImetGalinaGrishina at that event. She alreadyhadherownorganization,someorganizationcalled…

NP:Consortium33.

LS:No,no,no,notConsortium.Idon’trememberwhatitwasoriginallycalled,butlateritbecametheWomen'sUnion"East-West"34.Theyreceivedagreatdealofsupportfrom

29Il’iaI’lfandEvgeniiPetrovwereSovietauthorsfromOdessa.“Ostap”referstothecon-manhero,OstapBender,oftheirtwopicaresquenovels,TheTwelveChairsandTheGoldenCalf.("IlfandPetrov."Wikipedia.February28,2018.AccessedMarch08,2018.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilf_and_Petrov.)30MashaArbatovawasawriterandplaywrightwhoseworkfocusedonthefemalebodyandreproductionandincludedthemessuchasabortion,gynecology,andchildrenbornoutofwedlock.

31GUM(MainUniversalStore)isthelargestdepartmentstore(alargestorewhichsellsmanydifferentkindsofgoods)intheterritoryoftheformerSovietUnion.Itisuniqueinthefactthatitismorethanjustadepartmentstore,butalsoaplaceforpopularcultureandgatherings.("GUM.TIMELINE."AccessedFebruary15,2018.“DepartmentStore.”CollinsDictionary.AccessedNovember11,2019.https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/department-store)

32AdoctorofPoliticalScienceandleadresearchfellowattheInstituteofSociologyattheRussianAcademyofSciences.33TheConsortiumofWomen’sOrganizations

34“East-West:InnovativeWomen’sProjects.”Startedin1993,theorganization’swebsite(whichlookstohavebeenupdatedlastinabout2004)describesitasan“information-analyticsagency.”Theirworkentailed,forinstance,thedisseminationofinformation,conductionofsurveys,annotationofpublications,

15

aGermanwoman,SteffiEngert35.Shedidsomuchtoattractfunding.Thefirstprojectscame from that. And I remember, oh, what didn’t we learn... We learnedentrepreneurshipandsomeothercourses.So…

NP:Thatwaswith“East-West”or…?

LS:Yes,yes,yes.“East-West.”That’sGalinaGrishina.

NP:Atthebeginningofthe1990s.

LS:Yes,atthebeginningofthe1990s.

That's when I first saw computers! I remember I had such reverence for this youngwomanfromGermany,Idon'tevenrememberhername,SteffiEngel'spartner.Shewassitting and typing something on a computer, and she appeared tome almost godlike.Andshetriedtoexplaintomethatshewas justauser(shedidn'tusethisterm).Shesaidthatitwassimple,justlikeatypewriter.AndsothankstoourcontactswithGalinaGrishinaandherorganization—westillhadthestatusofawomen’sclubatthistime—wemade these contacts and Galina. invited us to take part in the project "ComputerLiteracyforWomen".That'showitallbegan.

AndwhenIwashangingaroundMoscow,Iremember,Iwasinthemetro,goingdowntheescalator,and…justbywayofassociation,Ibeganthinking:weneedtoestablisharegional organization, it must be large and regional... What would we name it? TheWomen'sCongressofKolaPeninsula! Igotthat ideainmyhead,andwhenIreturnedhometoMurmanskafterthetraining,atourclub'sgathering,Isaid,"Youknow,Ihavethisidea.Ithinkweneedtodothesethings.Solet'sbeginpreparingaconferencenow,let's write to all the organizations!" All kinds of clubs, small and tiny clubs, existedalready–manyformothersofdisabledchildren,forsinglemotherswereinouroblast.36Thesewereourseedsfromwhichwewouldgrow...Andwesent letterstoalloftheseclubs.I’lltellyou…I’lltellyouthatingeneral,noonewasinspiredbythisideaofasocialandpoliticalassociation,becausethemajorityofwomenintheseclubswereinterestedin cultural and recreational activities. They had their dating clubs or clubs to meetforeigners. Murmansk had a club like that, which, by the way, collected a lot ofcontributions,boughtvodka,andorganizedparties...ButIkepttruetomyagenda,Vera

andotherprojectsdealingwithissuesofgender.Thegroupisresponsiblefortheowl.rusite(OWL=openwomenline),whichhostsinformationandresources;theyalsosupportedpublicationoftheDictionaryofGenderTerms(Slovar’gendernykhterminov),ed.A.A.Denisov(Moscow:Informatsiia-XXIvek,2002).

35Women’srightsactivistbasedoutofGermany,headedthatcountry’sWomen’sFund(FrauenAnstiftung).Intheearly‘90sshebeganfocusingoncooperativewomen’sadvocacybetweenRussiaandwesternEuropeannations,andwasthuspresidentof“East-West”foratime.Source:“10летвстиле"ЖенскиеИнновационныеПроекты"”owl.AccessJan17,2020.http://www.owl.ru/win/womplus/2003/02_01.htm36Oblastisanadministrativedivision,usuallysurroundingacity.TheRussianFederationisdividedinto85subjects,ofwhich46areoblasts("OblastsofRussia."Wikipedia.February28,2018.AccessedMarch08,2018.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblasts_of_Russia.)

16

Fogt supportedme. Svetlana Parshkovawas the director of the House of Pioneers37.She…Sheallowedustomeettherebecausewekneweachother fromourtimeintheKomsomol. It would have been awkward for her to refuse the space, but she didn’tparticipateinourwork.WecreatedaSundayschoolatherHouseofPioneers.Thereweconducted just thesamekindofmixof training I spokeaboutearlier: communicationstandards, pro-feminist ideas of independence and choosing your path – so the rootsimplant in your head and from those roots eventually grow flowers.We brought ourvisionintopractice.

I returned in June, and we started some things. Then there was period for summervacations;wereturnedinSeptemberandstartedtoworkactively.InNovember,wehadourfirstregionalgathering...

NP:InNovemberof1992?

LS: Yes, it was 1992, at the end of October or in November... Now I can’t rememberexactly, but it’s allwritten in thehistoryof ourorganization. I just can’t remember itnow.Andwe,then,putittogether…weputittogetherasbestwecould.Well,whatdidweknowat that time?Weran itasweranthingsat theKomsomol.Thenwehadourfirstfund-raisingevent–thewordfund-raisingwasunknownthen,butthat’swhatwedid.

NP:Whomdidyoucontact?

LS: For example, we approached entrepreneurs, believing that they would help. Irememberaverycoolbusinessmaninthosedays,VladimirBaglaev,he’sstillthere,hehasanextensivenetworkofbusinesses inMurmansk.IrememberIcametopersuadehimtogiveussomefunds,andIsaidthat“wewanttounitewomen,todiscusswhat'sgoingon, topresentourviews, tohaveavoice.”Hesaid. "Idon'tbelieve in this,”andlike, “I don't like it, but since you came tome you can have ten grand!38" Or, I don'tremember,fivegrand,hegavemerightoutofhispocket.Orten,Idon’tremember.Yes.“Hereyougo,tengrand!”Andwesaid,“thanks!”

Andwhen…Andwemeteveryweek.Wehad regularweeklygatherings.Right, Iwastelling you how I went and collected contributions. So, by chance, a businesswomancomestous,shehadasmallstore.Andshesays,“Baglaevgaveyoutengrand?Okay,I'llgiveyoutwentygrand.I'llgetittomorrow.”Butourbiggestcontributioncamefromthepensionfund.ItsleaderwasamanwhoknewmewhenIworkedatdistrictKomsomolcommittee,andheworkedatthedistrictPartycommitteeasaninstructor.

NP:Youroldconnectionsstillworked!

LS:Yes,despitethefactthatwedidn'tpersonallyknoweachother.Wejustwrotelettersblindlyandsomeonesuggested thatapension fund is just likeabank, “theyhave themoney,justask.”Andsoafterhereadmyletterandsawmysignaturehesaid,“isthis

37TheHouseofPioneersisanafter-schoolactivitiescenterintheRussiancityofTaganrogthatexistedbefore1991.(“HouseofPioneers(Taganrog).”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember11,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Pioneers_(Taganrog))

38Itisnotactuallyclearwhatcurrencyitis.

17

thatsamegirlfromtheKomsomol?Alright,let'smakeacontributionandallowthemtodoagooddeed.”Somethinglikethat.

NP:IsthathowtheWomen'sCongressofKolaPeninsulagotitsstart?

LS: Yes, from this the Women’s Congress of Kola Peninsula got its start! And theWomen’sCongressasanorganizationaswell.By that Imean that the firsteventwascalledtheFirstWomen'sCongressofKolaPeninsula.

NP:Howmanypeoplecameasdelegates?Orhowmanywerethere?

LS:Therewereabout200peoplethere.Yes.

NP:You’rekidding.

LS:Nowit’sfunnytorememberhowwecalculatedeverything.First,wepaidfortravel.We knew that…well,we assumed that…we’re simplewomen andwe knew that noteveryonecould just takemoneyoutof theirwallet for the trip. Sowepaid for travel.Theystayedinadormitoryatthecollegewherewehadtheevent.Thespacewasfree,thecollegehall Imean.Theborderguard lentusavehicle for transportation(womenwhoworkedattheborderguardheadquartershelped).Wehadsimplefood-pastawithsomesauce.

NP:Thetimeswerelikethat,theearly1990's.

LS: Itwasn't justthetimes!Wehadourbudget,wecalculatedhowtodothis.Andwehad a coffee break—we already knew what a that word—for which we bought ryebread,cutslicesintoquarters,andspreadsomejamontop.Thatwasourcoffeebreak.Wehadthesemini-sandwiches.That'showitallbegan.

NP:Whatwere the goals of this organization thatwas so painstakingly createdandwhichunitedinthosetimes…?

LS:Wewantedtoagreeoncollaborativeactions.Itturnedouttobeverydifficult,anditbecameimmediatelyobviouswithdifferentgroupsofwomen.Atourveryfirstmeeting.Different women's groups had different interests. Those who were inclined to getinvolvedinpoliticsbyusingagradualapproach,andthosewhoreallyunderstoodthatweshouldn’tbebeggingforscrapsanddividingthemupamongstthehungry.Butthatwhat we really needed was status and power, to build our influence. Just as IgorSemenovichKonsaid,"theforceofyourknockatthedoormatters."Forour"knock"tomatter there should bemany of us,we have to be organized and support each otherideologically,wemustbe inagreementonourpositions.Andwehave to,as theysay,sing the samesong.Ourmainmessage thenwas like this, "Listen tous!Whatwe seehappeninginourcountry."

NP:Womenwantedtobeheardbysociety.

LS:Wesaid…Wefelt thatchangesshouldcomeabout inan intelligentandthoughtfulway, that you can't just tear it all apart... That things that work well should be

18

preserved...somethinglikethat.Ofcourse,wedidn'thaveanyLenins39amongus,whohad already spent many years writing. All this was done on the fly, at the level ofunderstanding of some common goals. But these common goals and objectives wereunderstoodverydifferentlybydifferentpeople.WecouldnotcometoagreementatourfirstCongress.Weagreedonlyononething,thatweneededaregionalorganization.

NP:Tofast forward:howmanycongresseswerethere?Generalones, thosethatunitedwomen,withmanydelegatesorguestsinlargenumbers?

LS:Hmm,five.Five-six.

NP:Five.Well,five-six.Doestheorganizationstillexist?

LS:Nominally,yes.Thatis,ithasnotbeenclosed,itmaintainsitslegalstatus.Justafewdaysago,SvetlanaParshkovacametoMoscow;sheisnowservingasthechairwomanfortheCongress.

NP: So theWomen's Congress of Kola Peninsula, has existed for a quarter of acentury?Butinwhatyearswasitmostactive?

LS:Inthe1990sandupto2006things.

NP:Upto2006.WhatwasthemostsuccessfulactivityconnectedwiththeworkoftheWomen's Congress of Kola Peninsula, which you would view as a personalachievement? Something that you accomplished at a gathering or somethingthroughwhich you brought together a large number of womenwho remain incontactwithoneanother?Imeantowhatextentweretheobjectivesformulatedwhentheorganizationwascreatedfulfilled?

LS:Itdependsonhowyoulookatit,andyoucancometovariousanswers.Ontheonehand,muchhasbeenachieved. Inmyopinion, therehasbeena radical change in theperspective—atleastintheregion—onthepositionofwomenandonwomen'srights.They have a right to participate in politics and in business, and their participation isgood.Andwomencantalkaboutmorethanjustrecipes.Thattheyareconcernedwithpolicyissues,socialproblems,governance,etc.Thisisveryvisibleinthemedia.

NP:Whatcausedtheorganizationtoloseitsmomentumafter2006?

LS: Natal’ia, I want to keep answering your previous question. Our second, realachievement was in our address of issues of violence against women and domesticviolence. With the help and support of our neighbors from Norway, that is, theNorwegianLaborParty,weopenedinMurmanskoblastourfirstindependentwomen'scrisis center.40It existed for fifteen years and was only recently closed. Relatively

39V.I.LeninisacrucialtheoristandfirstofficialleaderoftheSovietUnion.HewasaprolificwriterandhisworksinspiredRussian’stoaction,andsettheintellectualgroundworkfortheprogressoftheRevolutionanddevelopmentofsubsequentSovietstate. 40TheNorwegianLabourPartyisapoliticalpartythatpromotesamoderateformofSocialismandwastherulingpartyinNorwayafterWorldWarIIuntilthemid-1960’s.(Weibull,Jörgen,andJanChristensen."Norway."EncyclopædiaBritannica.March08,2018.AccessedMarch08,2018.https://www.britannica.com/place/Norway/Government-and-society#ref296429.)

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recently, Imean, itwas closed sometime in 2008. Simply becausewedidn’t have thefinancialmeans, because itwasnotpart of ourobjectives to support such structures.Ourobjectivewas to shed lighton the issue, to show thewaysand the infrastructureneeded for a solution. In this sense, we learned a lot from Canadian, German, andNorwegian women. We are very grateful to the Norwegian women – those whoparticipatedinconferences,thosewhoparticipatedintheprojects–specifically,totheKirkenesCrisisCenter,withwhomwecollaborated,and to thecityofTromsø41, fromwhichitallstarted.

Wesucceeded!Andthenwepromotedallofthis,weexplainedthatnowthereisacrisiscenterforwomen,victimsofdomesticviolence;wehandeditovertothestate,andnowthereareseveralcenters forwomenwhoarevictimsofviolence inMurmanskoblast.Nownotonlywomen,menandchildrenaswell.Theproblemofviolencetowardpeopleincloserelationships,itwasinvisibleandwasnotdiscussedatall.Atfirst,theproblemelicitedsarcasm,evenfromthosewithwhomweworkedontheseissues.Iamreferringtoourcitymayor, lawenforcement, themedia...Forexample, therewerepublicationssuchas "Shelter forEver-BeatenWives."That is, journalistswanted tohelpusand towriteabouttheWomen'sCrisisCenter!Andthat’swhattheycalledit,youknow...Thename “ever-beaten,” instead of something more acceptable, triggers how othersperceiveit.Butwesucceeded.

Webegantooffercomputertrainingtowomenonalargescale.AfterImetGalinaGrishinaandlearnedaboutherprojectsinwhichweparticipatedforthefirstfiveyears–wearesothankfultoGalinaGrishina'sorganizationandtoSteffiEngel.Greatthankstoher...Idon’tknowwhethertheythoughtweweredoingtherightthingwiththesecomputertrainings,butthesecomputertechnologies–theyraisedourconfidence.theyprovideduswithcommunicationtoolstointeractwiththeworld,togetinformation,toexchange[[ideas]]...IrinaFogtandIboughtourfirstcomputerwithourownmoney.42Itwastheresultofalittlebitofplayingthemarket!Atthetimethereweresugarshortages.Itvariedinprice,justlikethedollar.AndIgotthisidea,andIrinasupportedme...Wecollectedmoneyfromtheteacherswhowantedtobuysugarinbulk;weboughtitatwholesalepriceandsolditatretail.Andwepurchasedourcomputerwiththeprofits!Ourorganization,ourcoregroupof40peoplelearnedelectroniccommunicationstechnologyonthisonecomputerforsixmonths.Welearnedhowtouseemailandthetextprograms,Lexicon.Westartedtopublishournewsletteronthatfirstcomputeranddistributedit.ItcontainedseveralA4sheetsofpaperstapledtogether,weregularlysentitouttokeepothersinformedaboutwhatweweredoing.Andtheysaythatournewsletterwashighlightedalloverinsomeofthecountry’smajoroffices.

AndIneedtonotethatafterawhile,wereceivedfeedback.Inotherwords,womenfromofficesoftheauthoritiescametousandsaid,"I'vereadyournewsletterthoroughlyand

41CityofTromsøisacityinTromscountyinNorway.ItissituatedontheislandofTromsøya.Thecityisaculturalcenteroftheregion.(“cityofTromsø.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember11,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tromsø_(city))

42IrinaAleksandrovnaFogtteachesinformationtechnologyattheMurmanskCollegeofEconomicsandInformationTechnologies.

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Iwanttobepartofthis!"That'swhenIunderstoodtheimpactofthemethodicalpresentationofinformation.Ididnothaveanyspecialtraininginthisarea,Ilearnedthisfromlife.Wehaveachievedsuchresultsbyfollowingourinstincts.

NP:Fifteenyearsofsuchintenseactivityandsuccess–whydidthisallcollapse?Howdidthishappen?Wasitbecauseoftheoverallpoliticalcontextorsomeothercircumstances?

LS:First and foremost, itwasdefinitely linked to thepolitical context.When Iwas inCanada, and I learned how thewomen'smovement developed there,43I remember, Iwrote an article on the subject "Canadian Meditation." It was on their women'smovementbecauseweproceededinanearlyidenticalmanner.Theyalsostartedwithclubs, then created a movement, then they acted and so on... But we ended up withdifferentresults,andthesituationisdifferent.IwasinCanadain2004,atthattimetheWomen'sCongresswasstillfairlyactiveandwestillhadprojects.44Nevertheless,itwasclear that we were slowing down. That is, not just us, but the Russian women'smovementingeneral,becausewewerepartofanetworkofwomen'sorganizations,wewerepartoftheConsortiumofWomen'sOrganizations45,oftheIndependentWomen'sForum.Wefeltthateverythingwasstagnatingandcollapsing.

Andthen...thebackslidingstarted.Itbeganwithpureformalities,changesinlegislation,whichcomplicatedthelivesoforganizations.Whatisasocialorganization?Ifitistrulysocial, thereareusuallynopaidpositions.Therearenoaccountants,officemanagers,andstaffwhogetpaidfortheirwork.Noneofthat!Thatis,youliveyournormallife,youwork, raise children, take care of your home, and then you spend all your free timeserving your community. And suddenly some guy (orwoman) from the bureaucracycomes and interrogates you. Stony-faced, he or she demands your paperwork. I wasparticularlyastoundedbyour taxauthoritieswhobegantryingto fineusall the time.It'sironic,giventhat,unlikeourwonderful"sociallyresponsible"companies,wecouldneverevenconcealourtaxes.Howcouldwe?Whenwegetagrantit'sdepositedtotheorganization'saccount, theneveryexpense,everysmall itemthatwepurchase–allof

43TheWomen’sMovementinCanadastartedaround1985andcontinuestoday.Itissometimesreferredtoasfourth-wavefeminismandinvolvesmanyissues,includinganti-racism,disabilityrights,andsame-sexmarriage.(Strong-Boag,Veronica."Women'sMovementsinCanada:1985–present."TheCanadianEncyclopedia.AccessedMarch08,2018.http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/womens-movements-in-canada-1985present/.)

44TheCongressofCanadianWomenwasafeministorganizationcreatedin1950thatlobbiedforwomen’sequality.Itwascomprisedofseveralorganizations.ItwasfamouslyacatalystforpeacetalksbetweentheSovietUnionandCanadiansduringtheColdWar.("CongressofCanadianWomen."Wikipedia.March03,2018.AccessedMarch08,2018.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Canadian_Women.)45TheconsortiumofWomen’sorganizationsisaconsortiumofWomen’sorganizationsthataimsatpromotingtherightsandinterestsforwomeninRussiasince1993.Theconsortiumworkswiththeauthoritiestoimprovelegislationandequalopportunities.Theconsortiumalsoembarkedon“theCenterforAssistancetoVictimsofDomesticViolence”projectsin2018toprotectpeoplefromdomesticviolence.(“TheConsortiumofWomen’sOrganizations.”AccessedNovember11,2019.http://wcons.net/en/)

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thisisdocumented.Allourtaxes,whatwepayforstipends,toouremployees,allofitisfullytaxed,wehavetopayforeverything.

IrememberIwroteabouthow,withinthefirst10yearsofoperatingournon-profit,weattracted over $200,000, and all of it stayed in theMurmansk oblast. EverythingwasusedtosupportthepublicsectorandthebudgetofMurmanskoblastbecauseallofuslivedthere.That'swhereweallworked.Andallthemoney,$200,000,remainedthere.Ifallofusworkedwith that samekindofefficiencyaswedid then,wewouldbe livingundercommunism,butundermarketconditions!Yes,really!

First, we were really undermined by the changing [political] climate: that is, theconversations about democracy continued,while, in fact, therewas no democracy. Itwassoobviousincomparison,forexample,withCanada,inwhichorganizationssimilarto ours received funding annually from the state for thework they performed.Whatwere they doing? They kept an eye on their government: was it properly complyingwithall laws forwomen?Suchasmallorganization,only threepeople. I stillhavemynotes.Theyorganizedwomen'scrisiscenters,andtheyreceivedfundingfromthestatefor their centers. That is, the state recognized that social organizations were doingusefulandneededworkforsociety,anditthereforehadrespectfortheseorganizations.InRussia,ontheotherhand,wewereallfocusedonsurvival;thestatewasconstantlylooking to pin uswith something. Clearly, this is a completely different relationship...Not only conversations about the third sector46and civil society, but also the realsupport for the early beginning of the nascent civil society47– that’s so crucial! It'svirtuallyimpossiblefororganizationstothrivewithoutthissupport.

Thesecondimportantcauseisthe"behavior"ofthewomen'smovementitself. I thinkthat our third wave of the women's movement48faded because the women whopresentedthemselvesasleadersofthemovement,wholedorganizationsandwhateverassociation of these organizations... You know, they didn't have the passion, theycouldn't put the goals and theunderstandingof thewomen'smovement as a tool forworking with people above their personal ambitions. Yes, above their personalinterests...AndI’mreallyshockedtoseethatoursocietycontinuestooperateunderthesamepatriarchalrulesofflattery,servility,andboot-licking,whicharepartofthesame

46Thethirdsectorisatermusedtodescribethesetoforganizationsthatarenon-governmentalandnon-profit.Theseorganizationscanvaryinsizeandspecificaimsbutareusuallyvaluedriven.Commonthirdsectororganizationsincludecharities,thinktanks,privateresearchinstitutes,etc.(“Whatisthethirdsectorandwhatdoesitdo?”NorthernBridge.AccessedNovember14,2019.http://toolkit.northernbridge.ac.uk/engagingwithpolicymakers/engagingwiththethirdsector/whatisthethirdsectorandwhatdoesitdo/)47ReferstotheFirstWomen'sCongressofKolaPeninsulathattheintervieweestartedin1992.48Thethirdwaveofthewomen’smovementstartedintheearly1990sandcontinuedthediscussionofmanyissuesbroughtoutinthesecondwavemovementduringthe60sand70s.Thirdwavefeminismalsochallengedthedefinitionoffemininityinthesecondwaveandtookfactorssuchasnation,class,race,religion,andethnicityintoaccount.(Budgeon,Shelley.“ThirdWaveFeminismandthePoliticsofGenderinLateModernity.”GoogleBooks.AccessedNovember14,2019. https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=NLaADAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&ots=C0pzRhWAeJ&sig=Z0-rqx75ESDmxlsmpqUIK7ShxPk#v=onepage&q&f=false.)

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masculineculture thatweare fighting.Weused toexplain thatweweredifferent,weknewaboutgender,wehadagender-basedapproach,ourculturewasdifferent,so tospeak,moredemocraticandmoreethical...But itwasnotat all like that!Perhaps it'simpossibletobeimmediatelytransformed,right?Itturnsoutthatwepulledoutofthepatriarchalculturetheserelicsandstereotypesand,inpart,wethenreproducedtheminourrelationships.

There was no self-reflection. It always amazed me that we never had an honestdiscussion.Ialwayssaid,"Whydon'twetalkabouttheproblematicbehaviorofsomeofourmembers?Whydon'tyousaythatshewassimplydrunkandrowdyatourwomen'sgathering?Whydon'tyoucallthingsbytheirnames?"Italwaysamazedme...

NP: Did you use the word "feminism,", and did you call your organization“feminist”?Whatdoes"feminism"meantoyou?

LS:Tome,feminismismywayoflife.I'vespokenearlieraboutmymotherwhowasn'tafeminist.WhenIwasachild,shetoldmethatIhadtostandfirmlyonmyownfeet,thatit'smostimportanttobeself-reliant!Tobeself-reliant,toliveafulfillinglifeandtotakeastandagainsteverythingthatgetsintheway–that'swhatfeminismisforme.

It'saboutseeingoneselfasahumanbeing–allofthisisfeminism.

I've seen plenty of great quotes...whenever I stand up formy dignity, they callme afeminist – and I agreewith all of them. I haven’tmemorized all these sayings aboutfeminismthatI’veliked.Iknowthatthiswordstillcarriesanegativeconnotationinoursociety, because the term “feminism”has received somuchbadpublicity... Yes, everytimewhenwe had disagreementswith peoplewho came to us, especiallymen, theyalwaysmaliciouslyasked,"Whatareyou?Feminists?"Andweresponded,"Whatdoyoumeanbyfeminism?Whatisfeminismtoyou?"Tous,feminismis..."

NP:Wasthistermusedinyourorganization’scharterorsomewhereelseinyourorganization’spublicfaceorwasitnot?

LS:Inthecharter?Totellthetruth,Idon'tremember.Butnotbecausewewereafraidofsomething. I think that itdidn'tmakesenseorwas inappropriate tomention it in thedocument, andweusedotherwords.Butweourselvesknew thatwewere feminists,thatweactedlikefeminists.Thatis,wereally…

NP:Couldyoutalkaboutit?ImeannotintheWestwheneverwewentthere,butduringyourmeetingswithwomen,duringyourcongresses?Wasthistermused?

LS: It was used but was perceived variously among our members just as it was insociety. Because the women's movement is a very tolerant community, not like apoliticalpartywheretheytellyouwhatyoumayandmaynottalkaboutandifyouthinkdifferently,youshouldjoinanotherparty.No,ourcommunityisliberalanddemocratic!That is both its strength and itsweakness. Because you have a right to say anythingthat's on yourmind, nomatterwhat, even if you don't agreewith us. Andwhen youdisagreewithus,itappearsthatwe’renotunited.Andsoonerorlater,thiscrackorthisdentwouldbecomevisible.Yes…

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NP:Whereandhowdidyourresearchongenderpedagogy49andtheworkofyourorganizationintersect?

LS: They very much intersected. I would say that my involvement in the women'smovement helpedme realizewhat I am really interested in andwhat subjects I careabout.BecauseIintuitivelyfeltthatIwasrubbedthewrongwaybackinmydaysintheKomsomolwhenitwasnormaltohear,"Awomancannotbea firstsecretarybecauseshe is a woman. A woman’s place is the in a school sector!" It was openly said.Supposedly,womenare"third-rate"!

Whatwastheschoolsector?ItwasthelowestlevelinthehierarchyofKomsomolworkin theUSSR50.And thisalwaysrubbedmethewrongway.Or they toldmesomethinglikethiswhenevertheyweretransferringmefromonejobtoanotherandthepaywaslowerinthenew:"Well,it'sagoodsalaryforawoman". ,AndIwouldsay,"Whyforawoman?Whydoyouwanttogetpaid, for instance,300rubles,andIhavetogetonly240andbecontentabout itbecause I'mawoman?" I'vealwaysseen that therewereineptmen,menwho aremuch less capable thanme in terms of their organizationalskills, character, convictions, loyalty to the cause... but theywere in higher positionssimply because they were men. Subconsciously, this always irritated me. And Iremember when they told me, "You don't understand..." I answered, "YES! I don'tunderstand, I don't understandwhy it is thisway!" Themenwho spoke tome, theyweresosurprisedthatIdidn'tunderstandit.Itseemedtothemthatallwomenshouldknow that they have to stay behind and follow them. And the qualifications of thepersonaheadofyoudon’tmatter,youjusthavetofollow.

When I became involved with the women's movement, I remember my firstconversationwithTat’ianaKlimenkova51,whenI firstarrivedat theInstituteofSocialandEconomic Studies of Population (ISESPRAS)52. ElenaKochkina53worked there atthetime...TheconversationconcernedtheWomen'sForum,whichwedidn'tgetinto.54

49“Pedagogyistheart,science,orprofessionofteaching”(“Pedagogy.”MerriamWebster.AccessedNovember14,2019.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedagogy)

50USSRistheacronymforUnionofSovietSocialistRepublics.CommonlyknownastheSovietUnion.(“SovietUnion.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember14,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union)

51TatianaAleksandrovnaKlimenkovaisaCandidateofPhilosophicalSciencesandresearcherattheInstituteofPhilosophyattheRussianAcademyofSciences. 52Foundedin1988,theInstituteofSocialandEconomicStudiesofPopulationaimsatconductingresearchregardingpopulationwell-being,qualityoflife,demographicfactors’influenceoneconomicgrowth,andsoon.(“OurInstitute”TheRussiaAcademyofSciences.AccessedNovember14,2019.http://www.isesp-ras.ru/en/)

53TheGlobalFeminismsProjecthasaninterviewwithElenaKochkina.SeetheGFPRussiaSiteformoredetailsat:https://glblfem.sites.uofmhosting.net/en/russia

54Startingaround1991/1992,womenmetattheIndependentWomen'sForumtonetworkwithotherfemaleorganizationsthatsupportedthedevelopmentofaninterconnectedsocialinfrastructure.(InformationCenterofIndependentWomen'sForum,Moscow.AccessedDecember05,2017.http://www.owl.ru/eng/women/aiwo/iciwf.htm.)

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We,theWomen'sCongressofKolaPeninsula,hadnoideathattherewasthisForum,inMoscow55becauseourcommunicationsweren'tasgoodthen.Welearnedaboutitafterthe fact. Andwe even did things at the same time. That is, the first Forumwas heldexactlyonthesamedateswhenweheldourfirstCongressinMurmansk.AttheendofOctober1992.AndwehadnoideatherewassomethingsimilargoingoninMoscow.

Incidentally,thissuggeststhatacrossRussiamoreorlesssimilarthingswerehappeningatthistime:womenactivistsappearedeverywhereinthisrealmofsocialandpoliticalactivism. But then when I arrived at the institute, I, of course, didn’t know anyone.Tat’iana Klimenkova in this conversation, she told me how she first used the word"gender"forthefirsttime.Andshesaid,"Youknow,it'satypeofculture."Despitemybackgroundinpedagogy,beingaCandidateofSciences,Istruggledtounderstandwhatshewastalkingabout.Ididn'tunderstand,butIfeltthatitwasmeaningful.Tat’ianaalsosaid,"Youknow,patriarchyisatypeofculture."Atypeofculture?Itwasn'tatallinmypedagogical vocabulary.What is a type of culture?Well, itwasn't clear. But I startedreading.Itwasverydifficulttoseparategenderfromsex;theyhadsomuchincommon.Iremember,IwasataconferenceinSt.Petersburg.AnшaTemkina56,andmyfavoriteElenaZdravomyslova,57andSergeiOushakine58werethereaswell.Theyaskedme,"Inyour opinion,why does patriarchy exist andmaintain itself?" And I said, "Because ofgenderstereotypes!"Andtheyresponded,"It'snotonlyaboutstereotypes."AndIsaid,“whatdoyoumean?Ofcourseitsgenderstereotypes.”NowthoughIgetit,Iknowthevocabulary.Itwasnewtomethenanditwashardtosortitalloutinmyhead...Ittookme five years to understand it clearly, five years. During that time, I attended andparticipated in theFirst SummerSchool forWomenandGender Studies atValdai59. IrememberthatIwasannoyedbythelecturesofZdravomyslovaandTemkinabecauseIonly-understoodhalfofwhattheyweresaying.

IrememberAniaTemkina60usingtheEnglishword,"frame,frame...".Onlyafewyearslater,whenweweretogetherataseminar,Iaskedher,"Ania,what'sa"frame?"Andshesaid,"Oh,Liubov,oh,I'msosorry,youunderstand..."Yes,ofcourse, laterIreadthatitwasjustliketheRussianwordforframe.AndsoIaskedher,“Ania,whynotjustusetheRussianwordfor“frame”?YoureallyconfusedmewiththiswordandIwascompletely

55LSmisspeakshere.TheforumactuallyoccurredinDubna,whichisinMoscowoblast.

56Thetranslatornotesthat“AnnaAriadovnaTemkinaisaprofessorattheEuropeanUniversityinSt.Petersburg.”

57Thetranslatornotesthat“ElenaAndreevnaZdravomyslovaisaprofessorattheEuropeanUniversityatSt.Petersburg.”

58Thetranslatornotesthat“SergeiOushakineisaprofessoratPrincetonUniversity.”

59ValdaiisanuplandregionincentralRussiathat’sapopulartourismdestinationespeciallyforfishing.(“ValdaiHills”.Wikipedia.AccessedNovember14,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdai_Hills)

60AniaTemkinaiscurrentlyaprofessoroftheSociologyofPublicHealthandGenderatEuropeanUniversityinSt.Petersburg.Sheisalsotheco-coordinatorofthegenderstudiesprogramattheuniversity.Sheisinterestedingenderissuesinthepost-sovietsocietyandhasmultiplepublicationsonthesubject.(“Temkina,Anna.”EuropeanUniversityofSaintPetersburg.AccessedNovember14,2019.https://eusp.org/en/people/temkina)

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lostbecauseyouusesuchwords."Andsheexplained,"Pleaseunderstand,wehavethisfault,especiallythesociologistswhoknowEnglishandwhoreadbookspublishedintheWest..."

It was also very difficult to understand what "gender" meant. What was themethodologythatanalysessuchprocessesandshowshowitworks.ButIknewitwasexactlywhatIneeded.Andjustlikealltheothereducators,Itriedtoimplementitintheclassroom. I remember at the time I was working at the Department of ContinuingEducationforLeadersinEducationinMurmanskoblast,andmystudentswereschoolprincipals.Inmycourse,Ilecturedwithfireinmyeyesonwhatthis“gender”is,whatitgivesus,whatwearebeginningtounderstandabouttheoppressionofwomen.Iusedstatistics. Iremember itwasreceivedverycoldly.Onlyoncetheyblewupwhentherewasonemanamongthem,apsychologistwho,itturnedout,workedinaprison.Hewassilentforalongtimeandthensuddenlysaid,"Whatatallareyoutalkingabout?Womenhavetomakebabies,andmenhavetogotowaranddie!"Andthat'swhenthewomenblewup,"Wemakebabiesforyoutokill?"

So,youknow,someofthesethingsstartedtohithomeeventually.I'mcertainthatmystudentslatertriedtobringwhattheyheardhome.AndIrememberwhenonewomancamethenextdayandsaid,"look,afteryour lectures, Icamehomeandstartedtotellmyhusbandandmyson, that theywereoppressingme. I said that theydon'tdoanyhousework, blahblahblah..."That gotme thinking abouthow... gender andpedagogyareintertwined.Becausenothingwassaidaboutpedagogy.Theytalkedaboutsociology,history,philology,genderinlanguage,andsoon.So,ofcourse,allofitisintertwined.Allof thiswas extremely interesting, although not always understandable. So I began tothinkabouthowtoadaptittopedagogy...Whydoweneedgender?Howdoweadaptit,howdoweget to it?Because I knew that itwas rooted in childhood,upbringingandsocialization,which is taught by parents and teachers. That is, of course,we interactwithallofthis,weuseitall,andasaresultwehavethese.relationships.Subservienceinstead of partnerships. And the expectation that a person is going to take care ofanother, to serve another, that one person has to sacrifice for another – all of thisinstead of finding compromises. So I startedworking in that direction, and I am stillexcited.Iamstillinterested.Veryinterested.

NP: Could it be said that your work with the organization influenced youracademicwork,or,viceversa,youracademicworkhadanimpactonyourworkwiththeorganization?

LS:Well,tosaythatitwentdirectlyintotheorganization…

NP:Pedagogy involvesnotonlyworkingwithsmall children,butalso teenagersandyoungpeople.

LS:That'sright!That’sright!ButwhenIwasinvolvedintheorganization,Ididn’thavewithin myself the confidence, the strength, and sufficient knowledge to bring myacademicworktotheorganization.It'sanothermatterentirely!Idiscussedthesubjectof gender within a very wide circle of my colleagues who specialize in history and

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sociology... Natal’ia Pushkareva61specializes in women's history; she’s is a leadingexpert. You know, all this academic work and my readings expanded my horizons.Because pedagogy and gender… Better to say that sex, gender, and pedagogy… Sopedagogycannotgiveanswersbyitself.Togivetherightanswers,pedagogyhastobecreatedwithaviewtoitsconsequences–andthat’ssociology.Ithastobecreatedwithaviewtoitsgenealogy62–andthat’shistory.And…

NP:WhataboutWesternpublications?Weretheyhelpfulornotatthetime?Werethere,ortowhatextentdidyourelyontheworkofWesternscholarsinregardstogenderpedagogy?Perhapstheywererelevantorusefultotheadvancementofgenderpedagogyhere?Becausehere, other thanyou, I can’tnameanyonewhoworkongenderpedagogyastheprincipalthemeoftheirresearch.

LS:Well,actually…

NP: I’ve seen, of course, some individual presentations at conferences, but it’sonly your name that comes to mine when I hear gender pedagogy or when Igoogle it.Sohere is thequestion:didyouhaveproductivecontactswith foreigncolleaguesandtowhatextentweretheyusefulforyourorganizationorweretheyonlyusefulforyourscholarlypursuits?

LS:Foreignpublications,particularly if theyare translatedwell (because it'seasier toreadandunderstandinyournativelanguage)areextremelyhelpful.Extremelyhelpful...Here, forexample,ShawnBurnandhisgenderpsychology.63OhGod…SandraBem.64She’s great! I readher againandagain. I bookmarkedherbooksall over. In addition,there are other publications by men, that is male academics who work in this area.Foreignworksonmasculinity.Theyareextremelyinterestingtome,andImarkedthemupallover.Butwealwaysneedtoadapttheorytotheparticularitiesofourculture.Thatis,theSlavicculture65andour…

NP:Mentality.

61Natal’iaL’vovnaPushkarevaisaRussianhistorianandthedirectoroftheWomen’sandGenderStudiesDepartmentattheInstituteofEthnologyandAnthropologyattheRussianAcademyofSciences.Pushkarevaisoneofthemajorfoundersofwomen’sstudiesinRussia.(“Russia.”GlobalFeminismProject.AccessedNovember14,2019.https://globalfeminisms.umich.edu/en/russia)

62“anaccountofthedescentofaperson,family,orgroupfromanancestororfromolderforms.”(“Genealogy”Merriam-Webster.AccessedNovember14,2019.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genealogy)

63Dr.ShawnBurnisaProfessorofPsychologyatCaliforniaPolytechnicStateUniversitywhereshecoverstopicssuchassocialpsychology,genderandwomen’sstudies,andgroupdynamics.("ShawnM.BurnPh.D."PsychologyToday.AccessedMarch08,2018.https://www.psychologytoday.com/experts/shawn-m-burn-phd.)

64SandraBemwasanAmericanpsychologistknownforherstudiesinandrogynyandgender.("SandraBem."Wikipedia.March08,2018.AccessedMarch08,2018.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Bem.)

65TheslavsareanIndo-EuropeanethnicgroupthatspeakvariousSlaviclanguages.Geographicallyspeaking,thereareEastslavs,Southslavs,andWestslavs.(“SlavicCultures.”FamiliesforRussianandUkrainianAdoptions.AccessedNovember14,2019.http://www.frua.org/countriesandculture/slavic)

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LS: Yes, our mentality. It would be ineffective to apply theory without an eye toparticularities.Andwhenwe’ve tried to follow theorywithoutadapting it,we’ve,asarule, failed. We always need to understand cultural differences. Western academicsthinkthattheirwomenaremoreoppressed.Ontheotherhand,ourpedagogicdiscourseisfullofapityfor"poorboys,",whohavebeenallegedlyoppressedbyfemininewaysoforganizingeducationinschoolsbecausemostoftheteacherstherearefemale.Eveninthisaspect,thereisadifference.

NP: And the contacts between your Congress ofWomen of Kola Peninsula andforeignorganizations,thoseinthe1990s.Whatnewsubjectsdidyoucometoandbeginworkon thanks to thesecontacts?Thesubjectofviolenceagainstwomenanddomesticviolence...Whatelse…

LS:Yes,violenceincloserelationships.Heredomesticandfamilyrelationshipsareonlypart of the problem. Violence in any close domestic or family relationships, also inrelationships outside the family– they are close relationships aswell, because beforemarriage a person may also be in a close relationship. And another subject is thetraffickingofwomen.Thatis,trafficking...

NP: Andwithwhat organizations did you collaborate at that time?Whohelpedyou or possibly guided you ideologically thanks to your reading of their work,theirsites,theirstudies?Weretheresuch,astheysay,Ican’t…

LS: In termsoforganizations,becausewe live in theNorthwest, Imean, I lived in theNorthwest, in Murmansk oblast, our most active contacts were with Swedish andNorwegianwomen's organizations.WithNorwegians,weworked on crisis centers ofBarentsregion,66thesearewomen'sorganizations. Ican’trecall thenamenow.But inTromsø,inKirkenes,inSwedentherewasthiswomen'sorganization,itsnameevadesmetoo,butitdied,youcouldsay,itcollapsedin2008,duringtherecession.Whentherecessionunfolded,itjustcollapsedbecauseoflackoffunding.

NP:Didtheyhelpyou?Couldtheyevenhelpfinancially?

LS: Yes, because we had joint projects. The budget holder was this women'sorganization, its centerwas in Stockholm67.Weworkednot only inMurmanskoblastbutalsoinKarelia68,partlyinMoscow69andYaroslavl70;wehadafairlywidenetwork.

66TheBarentsregionisthegeographicareathatcontainsFinland,Sweden,northernmostpartofNorway,andNorth-WestRussia.MurmanskOblast,RepublicofKomi,andTromsøareallpartoftheregion.(“TheBarentsRegion.”Beac.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://www.barentscooperation.org/en/About/Learn-More/Barents-region)

67StockholmisthecapitalcityofSweden.Ithasbeenthecultural,political,andeconomiccenterforSwedensincethe13thcentury.StockholmisalsohometowntoAlfredNobel.Everyyear,thecityholdstheNobelPrizeceremoniesattheStockholmConcertHallandStockholmCityHall.(“Stockholm.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm)

68KareliaisaregionintheNorthernEuropethatiscurrentlydividedamongtheRepublicofKarelia,LeningradOblast,andFinland.Historically,itwascloselyrelatedtoFinland,Sweden,andRussia.(“Karelia.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelia)

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Withtheirhelpwedevelopedviolencepreventionandassistanceprogramsforwomenandchildrenwhowerevictimsofsexualtrafficking.

NP:DidyoucontactAmericanfoundations?TheGlobalFundforWomen?71

LS:TheGlobalFundforWomenreallyhelpedusinthebeginning,whenwedidnothaveourownspace,andweneededaplacetoworkandgettogethereveryweek.Weaskedformoney tocoverspacerental.Andwereceived$3000.Weused it for twoyears torentaspacethatwelaterbought.Becausewehadalease-purchasecontract.Weagreedon lease to purchase. So, little by little, we collected grants. In addition, the SorosFoundation72was very helpful and their small grants (for example, $10,000) were ahugehelp forus.Youhave tounderstand,becauseofourwork,ourregional focusonwomenfromtheregions,fromsmalltowns–thatmoneywentalongwayandallowedussupportourwork.73

TheCanadianFoundationfortheSupportofWomenalsogreatlyassistedus.Firstly…

NP:TheCanadianFoundationforGenderEquality,correct?

LS:Yes,forGenderEquality,whichwasinMoscowattheCanadianembassy.Withtheirsupportweconducteda remarkableeducationalproject inwhichNataliaPushkareva,amongothers, participated.Thepurposeof theprojectwaspreciselywhatour grouphad been talking about at the moment, i.e. that we needed to transfer a commonunderstandingofstrategiesofgenderandgender-basedapproachestopedagogy.Andwestartedat thevery foundation–withpre-schooleducation.Thanks tomyworkattheInstituteandmypersonalconnections,weagreedwithkindergartensatoneoftheadministrativedistrictsofMurmansk to train their teachersongender issuesand thegenderedstructureofsociety,andthentoworktogetherwiththem.Wewoulddecidetogetherwhatkindofimportancethesethingshadforchildrenbeginningattheearliest

69MoscowisthecapitalcityofRussiaandtheSovietUnion.ItisthelargestEuropeancitybothbypopulationandbyarea.Itisalsoacenterofculture,politics,andeconomyforRussia.(“Moscow.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow)

70YaroslavlistheadministrativecenterfortheYaroslavlOblast(whichislikeaprovinceorastate).ItisoneoftheoldestcitiesinRussia.ThehistoricpartofthecitysituatedattheconfluenceoftheVolgaandtheKotoroslRiversandhasbeenchosenasaWorldHeritageSitebyUNESCO.(“Yaroslavl.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslavl)

71TheGlobalFundforWomenisaglobalchampionforhumanrightsestablishedin1987thatoffersfundingtodifferentprogressiveandsocial-welfareorientedorganizations.("GlobalFundforWomenHistory&Mission."GlobalFundforWomen.AccessedMarch08,2018.https://www.globalfundforwomen.org/about/mission-history/#.WqHB1ijwbIU.)

72TheSorosFoundation,alsonamedastheOpenSocietiesFoundations,isthelargestprivatefunderforindependentworkersinthefieldofdemocraticgovernance,humanrights,andjustice.GeorgeSoros,thefounderandchairoftheFoundations,firstbeganfundinginternationallyin1979.Currently,theFoundationsfundindividualsandgroupsinover120countries.(OpenSocietyFoundations.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org)

73OpenSocietyFoundationsisaphilanthropicorganizationfoundedbyGeorgeSorosthatsupportscivilsocietygroupsprojectswiththeaimsofpromotingjustice,education,andsocialwelfare.("OpenSocietyFoundations."Wikipedia.February13,2018.AccessedFebruary15,2018.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Society_Foundations.)

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ofages.Andbecausethiswas2001,Iranintotheproblemofwhowouldreadlecturesforthisprogram.Astheysay:“grainbygrain,thehenfillsherbelly.”Iremember,Iwasatmydacha74withZoiaKhotkina,whowasmyguest,andweweretryingtofigureoutwhocouldtalkaboutthis.

Andweknewthat if itwasgender, thentherehadtobehistory,economics,sociologyandfamily.Ithadtobeaboutgirlsandboys.Therehadtobechildren'sliterature.WesortedthrougheveryonewhowasinvolvedinanythinglikethisinRussia,andweputtogetheraverystrongteam.LiudmilaVasil’evnaPopova75,whowasliterarilytheonlyscholar whose conducted research on the basis of Russian material on genderdifferences among schoolchildren, came to us and read lectures to kindergartenteachers.We invitedNatal’iaL’vovnaPushkareva,whowentaboveandbeyond.Usingherforeignlanguageskillsshecollecteduniquematerialanddevelopedlectures,whicharestillverypopulartoday.Inherlectures,sheanalyzedfairytalesandusingagenderanalysisandapproaches,shedetailedtheirpurposes.Next,wehadMarinaArutiunian,who had a very interesting study, which showed the consequences of mistakes ofgendereducationinchildhood,youth,andadulthood:howmenandwomen,whowereraised according to traditional gender roles, behave and what problems come aboutbecauseofthis.Theicing76onthecakeofourgroupwasIgorSemenovichKon77.Heisarenownedandwell-respected sociologist, psychologist, anthropologist, and sexologist,whose works to date are still the greatest, the best works offering an analysis ofmasculinity. That is, they ask, “what is wrong with men?” from the point of view ofchanging cultural conditions, in terms of the changes that have taken place in thetwentiethcenturyandareactivelycontinuingnow.Whatissuesdomenface?Andhowcanouranalysisandscholarshipaddresstheseissues?

TheEconomistZoiaKhotkinalecturedongenderdifferencesandgendersegregationintheeconomy, inemployment, and labor, andsoon.78So theprojectparticipantsgota"360-degreeview"ofeverythingthathastodowithgender,answerstoquestionswhatcomesfromwhereandhowallof it is interconnectedwithoureverydayproblems.Of

74A“dacha”isaRussiancountryhouse.("Dacha."Dictionary.com.AccessedMarch08,2018.http://www.dictionary.com/browse/dacha?s=t.)

75LiudmilaVasil’evnaPopovaisapsychologyprofessorinMoscowStateUniversity’sschoolofPedagogy.Hermainresearchinterestis“therealizationandpsychologicalsupportofgiftedgirlsandwomen”and“thepsychologyofcreativityinwomen.”Source:owl.AccessedJan17,2020.owl.ru/library/039t.htm

76“somethingthataddstotheinterest,value,orappealofanitemorevent—oftenusedinthephraseicingonthecake”(“Icing.”Merriam-Webster.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/icing)

77IgorSemenovichKon(1928-2011)isaRussia/Sovietphilosopher,psychologist,andsexologist.Hebelievedthatthesexologyisaninterdisciplinaryscienceratherthanjustabranchofthemedicalstudy.HewasapioneerofsexologyintheSovietUnionandwasawardedtheGoldMedaloftheWorldAssociationforSexualHealthin2005.(“IgorKon.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Kon)

78ZoyaKhotkinaisaUNExpertonGenderEqualitywhoproposesthattheconditionofwomeninRussiaislargelyduetounfaireconomicconditions,education,healthcare,andamale-dominatedpoliticalsystem.("GenderEquality,IndividualEmpowerment,andPluralism."Democracy,Gender,andSocialPolicyinRussia.doi:10.1057/9781137343215.0007.)

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course, itwasdifficultforusatthattimetounderstand,andforthem,ourstudents, itwasdifficulttoparticipateinthis“massiveattack,”thatis,thisintellectualassault.Forpeoplewhohavehavelivedtheirentireliveswithtraditionalgenderroles,whowereraisedwith themandwhosemindsweredevelopedunder them,weweredemandingthat they rethink everything. Though that’s how it always is. The grant we had wasgiven foroneyear,andwithin that time frametheyhad to first learn, then toanalyzetheirpractice,,tothinkitover,whatcouldbechanged,howscriptsforchildren'seventscouldberewritten,tochangethewaytheyinteractedwithchildren.Andthenallofushadtodescribeourconclusions,tocreateandpublishamanual.Wetypicallycallthisamonograph,but,infact,whatweputwasapedagogicalteachingmanual.Andaspeoplewhoworkintheclassroomshavetoldme,thismanualremainsthebest,oneofthemostunderstandableinwhichnotonlyisthetheorysummarizedinapracticalway,butalsotheimplementationofthattheoryisshown,i.e.whatyoushoulddoandwhy.Becauselifeshowsthat,well,whenhe/shereadstheory,apedagoguedoesn’talwaysgetwhattodonext.Howshouldhe/sheapplyit?

NP:Whathappened then in themid2000s…err, in theearly2000s,2005-2006when the activity of your Congress was winding down? ? How have thingsunfoldedoverthelastdecadeinyourregionwheretheUnion…errtheCongressofWomenoftheKolaPeninsulacontinuestoexistnominally?Andingeneral,towhatextentdoesyourworkcontinuetobeconnectedwithgenderpedagogyanddothesequestionsstillinterestyou?

LS:I’llstartwiththelastone.Becausethatone’sclearestinmymemory.Icontinuetowork on the gender approach in education. I developed this theory, I tested it inpractice, I taught it to students, and I've seen the results: how it changed students’awareness, their attitude to life and to children and so on. And now I have theopportunitytoworkexclusivelyonthistopic.Literarily.Icanspendhalfayearfocusingonlyonthis.Beforenow,I’vehadtocombinemyacademicinterestswithmyworkforwhichtheyactuallypayme.Soyes,Icontinuetoworkonthisand,Ishouldemphasize,itremainsveryinterestingtome.Justrecentlyitwasproposedtome,err,Iwasrecentlyaskedtohelpaunique,Ithink,educationalinstitution:thegirl'sboardingschooloftheMinistryofDefenseoftheRussianFederation.SothisisasortofCadetCorps79onlyforgirls.Itistheonlyoneofitskind.It'slocatedinMoscow,800girlsingrades5to11arethere. And the leaders of this institution approached us afterwatching thewebinars,which Olga Kliuchko80and I conducted (she has a PhD in philosophy and works ongenderissues).Theylistenedtousandrealizedthattheydidn’tfullyunderstandwhatgender was, and they asked for our help. That is, in fact, to create a scientific andpedagogical basis for the instruction of their girls, who are provided with a greateducation: 4 languages, excellent conditions, just extraordinary conditions. Just last

79CadetCorpswereoriginallymilitaryschoolsforsonsofthenobilityandgentry.Overtime,manyCadetCorpsstartedtorecruitstudentsfromdifferentsocialclasses.(“CadetCorps.”Wikepedia.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet_Corps)

80OlgaKliuchkofocusesonquestionsofphilosophicalapproachestogenderandeducation.ListsamonghermostimportantpublicationsTheGenderedApproachinSocialCognitionandEducation(Moscow:Direkt-Media,2015).AccessedJan17,2020.

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FridayIwasgivenatouroftheirbase.Justincredible.ThecharmschoolsoftheRussianEmpirepale in comparison.81Soverygoodconditions.And there’s ahighdemand forthegraduatesofthisinstitution,includinginhighereducation,inBaumanMoscowStateTechnicalUniversityandothers,whichhaveprogramsindatasecurity.DepartmentofDefense Military Institute of Foreign Languages has a quota for students from thisinstitution.But...discriminationcontinuestoliveonandthrive:theMinistryofDefenseallocatesonly4-5seatsforgirls.Eventhoughthesegirlsarewellprepared,they'rebornandbredpatriots.Allofthemarefromofficers’families,thefamiliesofmilitaryservicememberswhoserve in farawaygarrisons,or they’re the childrenof servicememberswhodiedinthecourseofduty.It'sanoldRussiantradition:Russiahasalwayshadsuchboardingschools,establishmentsfortheeducationofthedaughtersofmilitaryofficerswhodieddefending theirhomeland. Itwas thereeven inTsarist times82.And they’vereturnednow.SonowI’vereceivedthisopportunity,which,asIunderstandit,presentsawonderfulsiteforresearch.

Withregardtotheworkof theWomen'sCongressof theKolaPeninsula,wetruly feltthat sometime in 2006-2008 the intensity of work declined. At the same time, as Imentioned earlier, the situation in our country worsened because of governmentsuppression of social organizations. Secondly, Western foundations started to beexpelled, funding decreased, and it became nearly impossible to get funding.83But Ialways said, "When we became involved with this work we didn't think about themoney, we only counted on ourselves!" So the lack of funding is not our greatestobstacle,although,for15yearsweweresupportedbygrants...Theyplayedtheirrole,sotospeak:peoplebecomeusedtoreceivingatleastsomemoney...

NP:PerhapsRussianactivistshavebecomedisillusionedwiththe idea?Perhapstherehasn’tbeenagenerationofyoungwomentoreplaceyouandsay:“wesharetheseviews,wewanttocontinue”...

LS: Yes, such youngwomenexist because ourdaughters grewup and they share ourviews! But besides convictions, you need this… you this charism84. But people thatwanted to lead, to stand up for something – we haven’t found them. The Congress

81AcrossthelateRussianEmpire,anumberofInstitutesforNobleWomen,finishingorcharmschoolsfordaughtersofthenobilityorotherprivilegedclassesinthelateRussianEmpiresuchasmilitaryofficersandmerchants,werefoundedandmanagedinthenameofEmpressMaria,thewifeofAlexanderIII(1845-1894).

82TsaristtimesaretheperiodbeforetheRussiaRevolutionin1917,whenTsaristautocracywasthebasicformofthegovernment.Inthisperiod,allpowerandwealthbelongedtotheTsar,thesupremeruler.InRussia,theperiodstartedinthe15thcentury.(“TsaristAutocracy.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarist_autocracy)

83WesterncountriesprovidedfundstoRussiaafterthepost-sovietperiodafter1992inanattempttopromotedemocraticandfree-marketinstitutions.(Menges,ConstantineC."AnInitialAssessmentofU.S.AidtoRussia,1992–1995AndaStrategyforMoreEffectiveAssistance."https://www2.gwu.edu/~ieresgwu/assets/docs/demokratizatsiya%20archive/04-04_menges.pdf.)

84Charismis“anextraordinarypower(asofhealing)givenaChristianbytheHolySpiritforthegoodofthechurch”(“Charism.”Merriam-Webster.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/charism)

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continuestobeheadedbypeopleofourgeneration,thesameSvetlanaParshkova,whowasn'teagertojoinusatfirstbuthassincecomearound.She’sagreatorganizerandaveryresponsibleperson.Andupuntilnow…

NP:She’stheleadernow?

LS: Yes, she’s the leader. She’s now a member of the Civic Chamber of the RussianFederation85.ThankstoherworkintheleadershipoftheCongress,,sheworked…fortheadministration,wasinchargeofthepublicrelationsdepartment.Butwiththenextchangingof theguard, thenewgovernor,who,by theway, came tous fromMoscow,brought his own team and disposed of everyone who worked there before, withoutregardtotheirskillsandachievements.Ourgovernmentsystemisawful,justawful!Justaperfectstormofawfulness.AndonlyrecentlyshecametoMoscowtotalkwithmeandtoldmethatshewasexhausted.And,frankly,women'sactivismhasdeclined.

NP:Why?

LS:It'shardtosaygivejustoneanswer...Ithinkthatfirstly,we’vebecomeaccustomedto losses because our initial passion was from shock. The shock of the 1990's86, thecollapse of the system, when everything was falling apart and we needed to staytogether,unitedinordertoresistit.87Youknow,25yearsagoeverythingcollapsed,butnow people have adapted to a certain extent. Somehow, they learned to survive invariousways.

Second,thereisadisillusionmentwiththemechanismsofcontrolofourso-calledcivilsociety.Weputsomuchenergytocreatetheorganization,weparticipatedinelectionssomanytimes,youhavenoidea...Weparticipatedineveryelection!Andwedidn'thavemoney. Itwasall for free,door-to-door canvassing, all theseAmerican techniques.Bytheway, these techniques don'twork in our society either! Becausewe don't live invillages, but rather in these huge, densely populated housing developments. Everyattempttousethistechniquedirectly–IdidittooandIcansaythatit'sclearlyatotalfailure.It'satotalfailureinourcircumstances.Allofthistakesenergyandtime...Everyelection is... it’s like theendof theworld.Butafter it’sover, there’s stillwork, family,andeverythingelse. It's just anightmare.Andwe lost electionafter election,becauseour experience has shown thatmoney and people are easily bought. Including thosewho arepart ofwomen's organizations. Formany, getting theirs right here and right

85CivicChamberoftheRussianFederationwasorganizedin2005tooversighttheparliamentandthegovernmentofRussiaanditsFederalsubjectsaswellasanalyzedraftlegislation(“CivicChamberoftheRussiaFederation.”Wikipedia.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_Chamber_of_the_Russian_Federation).

86TheintervieweeherereferstothedissolutionoftheSovietUnion

87Theperiodoftimebetweenthe1980'sandearly90'sinRussiawascategorizedbypolicyandleadershipchangestowardsacommunistregime.TheSovietgovernmentbegantocollapseduringthisperiodoftimeandwasofficiallydissolvedin1991.AfterthedissolutionoftheSovietUnion,Russiahaditsfirstdirectpresidentialelectionandwentthroughanumberofyearsrehabbingtheirpoliticalandmilitarysystems.("HistoryoftheSovietUnion(1982–91)."Wikipedia.December02,2017.AccessedDecember03,2017.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1982%E2%80%9391)

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nowturnedouttobemoreimportantthantheideaofmovingforward,fighting,stayingunited,andinsistingonourposition.Andisitdifficultblamethem?

NP:Afinalquestion:Areyouoptimisticaboutthefuture?Imeaninthesenseofthe impactofgenderpedagogy,ofourefforts tochangethewomen’smovementthrough our research and through the activism of our organizations. Or haverecentyearsbroughtmoredisappointmentsthanhopesastowhatwecanfixandcontributeandsoon?

LS:Despiteeverything,Iamoptimistic.Theideaofgenderequalityfeelsrighttome.Ourtechniques,perhaps,weren'tthemosteffective.Sowehavetoworkonthat.Andtocontinuesupportingtheideaofgenderequality.Wehavetostaytruetoit...Betweenyouandme,Ihaveadeepdisdainforthosewhobetrayit.Becausemanyquiteintelligentandeducatedpeopleamongusturnedouttobetraitors.Thatone,ohGod,Mizulina.88I'veknownherfor20years.

NP:SheusedtobeaYablokomemberandnowshe’ssomethingelseentirely.89

LS:Yes,yes!Thisisapersonwhohadalwayssaid,“I'veworkedwithmenattheprosecutor'sofficeandIknowwhatweareworth!I’veearnedwhattheyhavemyself,IdefendedmythesiswhenIwasworkingthere!Wecandoanything!"And20yearslater...Sheisacompletelydifferentpersonwhotalksnonsense.It’sacompleteshamethatsheisalsoawomanbecausewearejudgedbyheractions.

Therearealsoothers.

Thisisespeciallytrueforfemalepoliticians.Theybetraytheiridealsbecausetheywanttokeeptheircushyjobs.Andtheygainnothing.Although,wearepartlyresponsibleforthis.Because,forexample,EkaterinaLakhova.90Ihavealotofrespectforherdespitesomeroughedgesinourrelationship;shealsousedtosupportus.Sheusedtosupportus!Shewaswithus.Butassoonasitbecamenecessarytoaddressaspecificlegalissue,

88ThetranslatornotesthatElenaMizulina“isaPhDinLaw,professor,andaRussianstateandpoliticalleader.SheisnowaFederationCouncilSenator.”Inthatroleshehas“advocatedforbanningabortionsandotherrepressivereproductivepolicies.”PoliciesMizulinahassupportedinhertimeintheRussianParliament(1995-2003andfrom2007tothepresent)includebillsthatwouldpreventwomenfromobtainingahighereducationbeforehavingchildrenanddecriminalizationoffirst-timedomesticviolenceoffenders.("YelenaMizulina."Wikipedia.March03,2018.AccessedMarch09,2018.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelena_Mizulina.)

89YablokowasaRussiansocial-liberalelectoralblocandpoliticalpartyfoundedin1993.ItenjoyedsomesuccessintheYeltsinyearsbutunderPutinhashadminimalsuccess.NPherenotesthatMizulinausedtoespouseliberalviewsandwasamemberofthisparty.Shequitthepartyin2001andjoinedtheUnionofRightForces,aneoliberal,free-marketparty,andin2007shewaselectedtoParliamentasamemberofAJustRussia,asocial-democraticpartythatpresentsitselfasanalternativetoUnitedRussia,thepartyofpower,thoughmanyareskepticalofthatnominalopposition.90EkaterinaLakhovaisaRussianpoliticianandin2016sheservedasthechairwomanoftheWomen’sUnionofRussia,memberoftheFederationCouncilCommitteefortheFederalSystem,RegionalPolicy,LocalGovernanceandAffairsintheNorth.(InterviewbyVladimirNesterov.ExclusivelyforVestnikKavkaza."EkaterinaLakhova:"Awomanisdesignedsothatshecansavefamily,peace,Russia"."VestnikKavkaza.AccessedMarch09,2018.http://vestnikkavkaza.net/interviews/Ekaterina-Lakhova-%E2%80%9CA-woman-is-designed-so-that-she-can-save-family-peace-Russia%E2%80%9D.html.)

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toargueforitandtosupportourideas,shebegantooverintellectualize91andwaffleoverthematterlike:“itcanonlybethisway,andnoother.”Shedemonstratednoflexibility,nointelligence.And,ofcourse,shewantedtobepopularandtopresentherselfinthebestlight,andallthesethingsledtoherfailure.Shebecamedisillusionedwithus.Iunderstandher:shebecamedisillusionedwithusbecausewewereanorganizationthatcouldhavesupportedher.

NP:Butyou’restilloptimisticaboutthefuture?

LS:Yes,ofcourse.

NP:Caninternationalorganizationshelpusany?

LS: Iwould say this: I believe inwhat I have always believed and again, there is thetruth:dowhatyouhavetoandwhatwillhappen,willhappen.Ibelieveinthisidea–notblindly,notbecausesomeonesaysso,butbecauseIembracedit,becauseIbecameanacademicexpertinthisarea.I'veconvincedmyself,andIbelieveinit.SoI'mgoingtodoeverything possible to promote it. If I come to an understanding that this idea iserroneous,perhaps,Imaychangesomething.NowIstillbelievethattheideaisright.SoImustgoon!

NP:Thankyousomuch,LiubovVasil’evna,foreverythingyouhavesharedwithustoday.

LS:Andthankyou.

91Overintellectualizeis“tointellectualize(something)toanexcessivedegree”(“overintellectualize.”Merriam-Webster.AccessedNovember18,2019.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overintellectualize)