lou costa interview transcript

Lou Costa Interview 3/6/08

Lou Costa InterviewMarch 6, 2008 Interviewer: Josh TobiasLocation: Providence, R.I

Josh Tobias: Hi my name is Josh Tobias, I am here with Lou Costa. The date is March 6, 2008 the time is 2:15 in the afternoon. Good morning Lou, good afternoon I mean

Lou Costa: Good afternoon whatever

TOBIAS: So I’m going to ask you some questions about your childhood and your sort of experiences growing up in Fox Point. Can you tell me about a little bit about the people who lived in your house?

COSTA: It was my parents my mother and father. And then my brothers, I was the youngest of four boys. And then my sister Elaine was the baby. We lived in a two bedroom house where we were born at 151 Brook Street, We lived there until we moved to Transit Street. And I lived on Transit Street in two different dwellings. Well actually I left 126 and I joined the military and I stayed in the military for 22 years.

TOBIAS: Can you tell me about a little bit about your parents, like where they are from sort of what their professions were?

COSTA: My folks who were immigrants from St. Michaels in the Azores and they came to this country around, I guess 1928, 1929 circa. And they were married in Holy Rosary Parish in 1929. I believe it was October of ’29. I think all my brothers and sisters were all born at home with a midwife. We all attended Arnold Street School. Oh you’re asking about my folks.

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: My folks were, we only spoke Portuguese at home. I don’t think my dad had two or three years of formal education. My mother I don’t know. She came from a more rounded family. But never had any education in this country. And I don’t know what else.

TOBIAS: Did your grandparents live with you?

COSTA: No, my grandparents, I never saw my grandparents. My grandparents were in the old, in the Azores. My folks were first generation in the USA. So I never saw my relatives that were over there. I had many aunts and uncles that lived in Fox Point.

TOBIAS: Can you tell me a little bit about your aunts and uncles, did any of them live in Fox Point?


COSTA: Yeah the house where I lived in. My mother’s brother owned that, Antonio Reposa Silva. And he had two children. And then I had another uncle that lived in that house. D’Olivera, that was my mother’s sister, he was married to my mother’s sister. And then I had another aunt that lived on Wickenden Street: 216 Wickenden Street. Her name was Caldera, she was married to Joseph B. Caldera. She was my mother’s sister. And then I had another aunt who lived on Transit Street that I don’t remember. My mother’s oldest sister, who died I think the year I was born 1937. And she was married to Tony Rezendes. And they had four children I believe and they grew up in Fox Point also. So my uncle D’Olivera, they had two sons, lived in Fox Point until they got married. And my aunt Caldera had three daughter and lived in Fox Point until they got married. And my uncle Silva, Reposa Silva, they had two that lived in Fox even after they got married for awhile. That’s basically my family, most of my other relatives were over in Portugal. I met some just recently, one of my first cousins who lives in California, San Luis Obispo. And we want to the Azores a couple years ago and I met his sister who is my first cousin also. And I met another lady over there who was a relative of mine. And basically that’s my family.

TOBIAS: Growing up did you often, like, play with your cousins, was there a lot of family get-togethers?

COSTA: Well, we were a very close family but we didn’t play together much. Because of the age groups; I was younger than most of my cousins. But we were very close in terms of visiting. We would walk to each other’s homes and visit and we were pretty close. We always spent holidays together. And I would say that I was very close to my in-laws.

TOBIAS: Can you describe a little bit the house that you grew up in?

COSTA: It was a two family dwelling, I lived on the 2nd floor. It had a parlor which was always closed with the exception of Sundays. We had a kitchen, we had two bedrooms. We did not have a toilet or shower in the house. There was not hot water. We had a toilet down in the basement which was used by both families. There was no central heat, no hot water, no shower or tub.

TOBIAS: Was it very crowded, like did you have to share

COSTA: I guess it was we had five, I guess four sleeping in one bed. Four boys. We just thought that it was part of life. I guess when I went on submarines it never bothered me because I grew up, you know, in a crowded home. But then when we finally moved to Transit Street we had three bedrooms So that was two boys in each bedroom and my sister joined in one. And of course my parents had their bedroom. Something we just took for granted, basically everyone in Fox Point lived the same way.

TOBIAS: Did you, so can you talk about the children you were friends with in the neighborhood, the kind of things you use to do with them?


COSTA: Well the kids that I grew up with were basically in the same financial situation. We all basically attended the same school. Most of my close friends were Portuguese or Cape Verdean. And most of use attended Holy Rosary Church. Some of the Irish kids in the neighborhood went to Saint Joseph’s Church which was the Irish parish. Holy Rosary was a Portuguese Parish. But most social life we had was the Boys Club, Fox Point Boys Club, which was located at 226 South Main Street. They had a swimming pool, arts and crafts, gymnasium and that’s where we spent most of our time. Other than that we played in the street, we played games like kick the can, horse which was jumping on each other, and peg stick. Most kids in our neighborhood did not have bicycles. Our parents couldn’t afford them. We made scooters and wagons out of carriages, old baby carriages. And the girls were pretty much sheltered they weren’t out in the streets like the boys were.

TOBIAS: So it was only boys playing together

COSTA: It was pretty much only boys. The girls were pretty much sheltered by their parents. You didn’t see the girls out. We roamed the streets and the girls did not.

TOBIAS: What was church like? Like, did you play with your friends in church?

COSTA: Well not really. That’s where everybody really met. That was, I guess the magnet of the community. I would see everybody, you know, at church on Sundays. We had Sunday School classes which was teaching catechism and Catholicism. We didn’t really communicate much in the church. And after the services were completed we all went our ways. That was the day we all got to dress up in a new suits and new shoes, if we had new shoes. And we were pretty spiffy. The old Portuguese people in my experience, the ones that I knew, were pretty poor but they always had fifty cents or a dollar to donate to the church. So it was almost mandatory that you went to mass every Sunday.

TOBIAS: So all the Portuguese people in the neighborhood went to Holy Rosary?

COSTA: Pretty much so, there may have been a few that went to St. Josephs because of the logistics that they lived closer. But we had people who would come, you know, from the Ives Street Neighborhood. And mostly everybody walked. But they went to Holy Rosary Church if they were Portuguese. And like even the Irish that lived next door to us they would go up to St. Joseph’s Church.

TOBIAS: How long were church services usually?

COSTA: Approximately an hour

TOBIAS: So I wanted to ask you a little bit about Arnold Street School. Like what was the school like, what was the school? What were some of your memories of going to the school?


COSTA: Well, I thought it was a pretty nice school. It had all hardwood floors and stairs. I remember the teachers were primarily Irish. They were all female teachers. And, my experience was pretty pleasant. We spoke Portuguese at home, I personally had difficulty picking up the English language. I never did well with English. But reflecting back on Arnold Street School I think the teachers were, you know, pretty good. It was an integrated school we had blacks, whites, Portuguese, Irish, maybe a couple of Lebanese. I can’t think of any other ones. I guess there were a couple of Italians in there too. It was a good group. And, the schools were a lot more disciplined then than they are today.

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: You lined up and marched in to class and out of class. And I think it was pretty good memories.

TOBIAS: Did the teacher have like a stick or something if you were

COSTA: I never saw it in my school. But I think we were frightened, we were intimidated by the teacher. But I understand in parochial school that the nuns use to use corporal punishment, whack the kids over the knuckles with a ruler. I actually never saw that myself because I never attended parochial school.

TOBIAS: So you’re saying that you hadn’t spoken, didn’t speak English before you started school. So when you were with your friends did you speak mostly Portuguese?

COSTA: No I spoke English with most of my friends.

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: Well, With the exception of friends that came over from Portugal because they would integrate them right away into the school system.

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: Well some of those until they learned English well enough I would speak Portuguese.

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: And at home after going to school I would speak Portuguese and English mixed in. Like I said, my folks didn’t have a formal education, so I never really learned formal Portuguese and I used the language that my folks spoke with.

TOBIAS: Did you ever have to translate for you parents?


COSTA: I did. My oldest brother did most of the translation and my third brother, the oldest and the third. Well, my oldest brother was very fluent in Portuguese and English. And he was really the translator for, we had to go to doctors or school issues.

TOBIAS: Did anyone at the school, did any of the administrators speak Portuguese?

COSTA: We were required to speak English, and they would speak English to my parents when they went up to school. If we required a translator, I would have to translate or my brother would have to come in.

TOBIAS: In school what were some of your favorite subjects or favorite memories of Arnold Street School?

COSTA: I never like English and writing. Math was probably my favorite subject. And of course we had drawing classes. And we were basically learning phonics and the ABCs. And basic arithmetic, recognizing numerals and counting the basic tables. That’s all I can really remember.

TOBIAS: How long was the school day

COSTA: I want to say it was from nine till three. You know I really don’t remember. But I think it was from nine o’clock until three o’clock.

TOBIAS: Did you go home for lunch?

COSTA: I did. You know we could walk. I think we had forty minutes or whatever it was.

TOBIAS: So most of the kids lived really close to the school?

COSTA: Right. Everybody lived within walking distance

TOBIAS: So after school would you go to the Providence Boys Club?

COSTA: Right. After school we would go to the Boys Club or we would play in the street. We would play baseball or softball. Just hang around. The Boys Club was really the focal point of Fox Point

TOBIAS: So can you talk a little bit about some of your memories from the Boys Club. Any particular memory that really effected you?

COSTA: Well I learned how to swim. It was compulsory. You had to learn how to swim. I was exposed to basic electricity classes they had there. They had a basket weaving in the arts and crafts and I made a basket I was pretty proud of. They had games there, finger pool which was a little circle of wooden cylinder that you would hit on a table with another cylinder and try to get them in the pocket. That was most popular with


all the kids. Then they had the gymnasium: We boxed, we played basketball. And my greatest activity I liked swimming all the time, I really looked forward to swimming, which was good because in terms of personal hygiene we had hot water, showers, which we didn’t have at home. On Friday’s they had movies. I think it costs 7 cents or 8 cents to see a movie. That was the highlight of most of the kids. And girls were allowed to attend the movies.

TOBIAS: What kind of movies did they show?

COSTA: They showed really old movies. You know Charlie Chan movies, Tarzan, Batman, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry movies.

TOBIAS: Was it only kids that went to those movies?

COSTA: Adults really didn’t go to those movies. And they were basically oriented toward kids.

TOBIAS: Did they have snacks at the Boys Club?

COSTA: They did. I never bought any snacks because I couldn’t afford it, we didn’t have the money. Few kids, their folks gave their some money. My folks never made much money so I never had any spare money. But I didn’t see too many, you know, guys that I chummed around with buying snacks.

TOBIAS: Did it cost any money to join the Boys Club?

COSTA: I think it costs twenty five center for a year

TOBIAS: Wow

COSTA: Which was a good deal

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: Though twenty five cents was a lot of money for us, but it was a good deal. And most of the guys in Fox Point were members of the Boys Club. There was not too many that I really knew of that didn’t join the Boys Club.

TOBIAS: How many days a week would you go to the Boys Club?

COSTA: I went…I would say, four or five days a week, sometimes more. I wasn’t opened on Sundays, but I spent quite a bit of time there. Especially in the winter because it was, you know, too cold to be outside playing on the streets so we went to the Boys Club.


TOBIAS: What was the age range of the kids?

COSTA: I want to say maybe six to thirteen, fourteen. Some could be a little older but most kids after they reached fourteen, fifteen years old, I think they stopped attending the boys club.

TOBIAS: So

COSTA: And the boys club had a library there, we had a librarian, who was a teacher at one of our public schools, Miss McAffery which was very good. And she would read stories to us. And the ones who were studious would study there. I was not one.

TOBIAS: So people would do their homework?

COSTA: Some yeah. They had a gorgeous table there, that had to be twenty five feet long, thirty feet long.

TOBIAS: So getting back to your family a little bit. Was there ever like events where the whole family would get together?

COSTA: On Christmas mostly. Christmas we would go to each others home. I got to say my aunts and uncles were very benevolent because my folks were probably the poorest out of the family. And, there was always enough food at Christmas time. Everyone would make moonshine and my father would make wine. Christmas was always a happy time. We never got many toys and we never expected many toys because, we didn’t feel we were going to get it. But it was a happy time. And the families were very close, my aunts and uncles were very close. And I was always very close with my cousins. And I had a lot of good friends, young friends that I grew up. We were a very close community.

TOBIAS: Do you remember the foods that your parent’s family use to make?

COSTA: I ate Portuguese food quite a bit. And, I remember going to school in the morning and I use to get a bowl of coffee and they would break up Portuguese bread and put it in there. And that was my breakfast for years and all my brothers and sisters. But then at noontime we would have sandwiches and at night we usually had a nice meal. My mother was a good cook.

TOBIAS: What are some of the Portuguese foods that they would make?

COSTA: Oh, I really am terrible with food names, my wife would know that. But, I know that my mother use to marinate food and I could smell it, and she was a great cook. We ate a lot of fish on Fridays. Usually had fish every Friday in those days, Catholics didn’t eat meat. Occasionally we would have steak. But we ate pretty well if I think back on it. And Sunday we always had a big meal.


TOBIAS: Where was you, like was there a local Portuguese market in town?

Lou Costa: We went to Friends Market which is still in existence on Brook Street. Then across the street there was Joe’s Market, and we would use that market occasionally too. So between those two markets. What it would be is that they would put us on the books, and when my dad got paid we would pay it off at the end of the week. There was no interest and they were good in terms of that if they knew your family. So if my mother sent me down to get a loaf of bread or quart of milk I would just go in and get it and they would put it on the book

TOBIAS: Do you remember the name of the people who worked at, who owned the Friends market

COSTA: Yeah, oh gosh, it was Arrojas, and I can’t. I’m trying to think. You know I have that written down in my notes and I can’t remember what it was in English. Arrojas. But I remember him well And the guy that owns the store know took it over after him. Petros, Petrosa. And Joe’s Market was owned by Joe Almeida and he ran that with his brother Richard. But in Friends Market the owner, Arrojas, and I can’t it skipped my mind. But there’s a guy who worked there for many years Eddie Mendonca who is deceased. Eddie Miranda worked there for many years and he’s deceased, no Eddie Miranda is still alive. They had other people off and on working there.

TOBIAS: Did you ever have, like, an after school job?

COSTA: I did. I shined shoes as a young boy. I did that mostly on weekends, Friday nights and Saturdays. And I worked in the bowling alley when they opened Sunny Side Lanes. I set pins up there. I used to work there I think from six o’clock to eleven o’clock. And get up to go to school in the morning

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: I used to get six cents a string. And that was a big thing to have that job.

TOBIAS: So when you were older you went to Nathan Bishop Junior High School?

COSTA: Yeah, I went to Thayer Street first then Nathan Bishop. And we walked to school, Nathan Bishop was like almost two miles from my home We walked back and forth, rain, shine, snow. That’s up on Elm Grove Avenue right next to Brown Football Stadium.

TOBIAS: Yeah. Was it going to a bigger school was it difficult being with, you know?

COSTA: I was kind of apprehensive when I went there. It was first time met kids from many other schools. They had another elementary school in Fox Point, Ives Street, and kids came from there. They came from John Holland School on the East Side and Doyle


Avenue School on the East Side. So now we’re integrated with many other kids that we never knew.

TOBIAS: Was there, like, a lot of rivalry from the kids who went to different schools or from different neighborhoods.

COSTA: Not really, I was apprehensive about the Jewish people. Because our landlords and the people who owned many of the shops were Jews. And you know, there’s sort of a negative connotation to them. And after I got to the school I realized that Jewish kids were just like me. They didn’t look different, most of them were wealthier. They were better dressed and they had a lot more things then we did, you know, physical things. Other than I think we integrated pretty well.

TOBIAS: Was it, so, was it like blacks and Portuguese and Irish, all of them were at the school?

COSTA: Yes

TOBIAS: It was an integrated school

COSTA: Yes it was everything. And that’s the first time we changed classes, in elementary school we didn’t do that. And of course there was a lot more kids there too. And we made many new friends from the East Side. And, because about five elementary schools that probably had input into that school. It was, when we were starting to grow up.

TOBIAS: Yeah. Do you remember were there like sort of like that boys and girls would date, start to go out on dates?

COSTA: Was there what?

TOBIAS: Boys and girls would there start to be

COSTA: I still can’t

TOBIAS: Like relationships between boys and girls

COSTA: Yes, you know, different guys started dating different girls. Different relationships and things of that nature. And you met a lot of different people. I found, like, the Jewish people were kind of aloof, and I think, this is a subjective opinion, that the teachers were biased to the Jews. Because they were more prepared, generally speaking, educationally, in terms of education. They had a better background, they were more prepared. Though we had some kids from Fox Point that were pretty sharp. When I look back it, and I saw this years ago, that Fox Pointers were kind of repressed and they weren’t as motivated to go on to higher education to college and things. They weren’t


motivated to take college courses. Some were but many of them weren’t. And I knew actually examples of this

TOBIAS: Could you give like one example?

COSTA: My oldest brother, they never put him in a college prep course. And he got into Brown University in 1947. And he had a difficult time because he wasn’t prepared. He made it through Brown and it was tough. And he was working 46 hours a week in a hardware store, besides going to Brown. And my wife, and this is from Hope High School now, they didn’t prepare her for college. And she went to University of Rhode Island and she had a difficult time, she was a chemistry major. She graduated from URI but it was difficult When she went on to graduate school at Brown University she related to me that it was much easier because she had a good preparation from URI. Now URI would have been a lot easier for her if she had the preparation from the high school. Because there is a tremendous amount of math in chemistry. So those are two actual things that I could give you. And I knew a lot of the blacks that were pretty smart scholastically speaking that weren’t motivated to go on.

TOBIAS: Did it come from the teachers?

COSTA: It came from the teacher. Though they had other teachers. I had a guidance teacher, that tried to motivate me to learn because I wasn’t academically brilliant, I guess, I didn’t like school. I kept telling her that I wanted to quit school. And she tried to motivate me, she was wonderful, she was a wonderful wonderful lady But she’s the only one I remember, everyone else though I’d be better off going to work at a jewelry shop, but when I looked at, which I never did, but when I look back at that I just think that is terrible to do to any young person. I went into the military when I turned seventeen years old. I had a tough time in the beginning, because I didn’t have the background. I went into the technical areas in the service and it was very difficult.

TOBIAS: So did you find discrimination outside of school, like from other areas?

COSTA: I did. I’ve been referred to as a black Portuguese, Fox Pointers. You know, some of the people from the East Side were condescending to Fox Pointers. And this could have been white and black people, you know, from the East Side. But, I don’t know, I think a lot of it was just kids. And I guess it was competitive, like the Irish wanted their daughters and sons to marry Irish girls and boys. The Portuguese wanted them to stay with Portuguese. The Italians and the Jews, you know, wanted them to stay. But the people up on the East Side when I got to Nathan Bishop Junior High School and Hope High School, the Jews pretty much stayed to themselves. And the Fox Pointers and the people from the West End up there, we got along pretty well.

TOBIAS: What did you guys do after school? Like for fun?

COSTA: Well, I was out on the streets all the time playing, going to the Boys Club. And others, scholastically minded gals and guys came home and studied. I never once, not


that I’m proud of it, but I never once took a book home or did any homework. I never did when I was at school. And of course my parents, you know, never really pushed me in terms of that because they didn’t have an education themselves. We never had newspapers in the house or magazines, we spoke Portuguese. So, we really weren’t, we never really talked about current events or anything like that at home. And I can’t use that as a crutch because I have two brothers that did very well in school and in terms of education. But in my family, I reflect back now, at the humble beginning that we came from I think we’ve all done well. And as I say, you know, facetiously, if you don’t have anyone in jail you did well in Fox Point.

TOBIAS: Yeah. Was there crime in the neighborhood or was it pretty

COSTA: There was. You know I remember one time we had friends from New York staying and we were missing a pocket watch. And I’d given up my bedroom. Oh, and I felt guilty like they were thinking that I may have taken it. But I found out years later that there was a guy in the neighborhood breaking into all the houses, came in while you were sleeping. And he was the guy who took it. But there wasn’t too much of that. Because I lived on their first floor and they could climb right in the window. You know, in terms of crime, they could go two streets over where the wealthy people were at, you know, up to John, Williams Street, if you were looking for anything. We didn’t have anything you wanted to steal. We didn’t have car, bicycles. You know, nobody had much money. So there wasn’t very many, very many, valuable material things.

TOBIAS: Where did your dad work again?

COSTA: Pardon me

TOBIAS: Where did your dad work again?

COSTA: He worked in the butcher shop. He was a meat cutter, which was tough work. And it was in Pawtucket and he walked to work every day back and forth from Fox Point to Pawtucket.

TOBIAS: How long is that?

COSTA: It would take him probably an hour to walk each way. And I remember one day he would come and my oldest brother said, you know, in Portuguese “Dad your eyes are frostbitten.” But that’s just the way life was. So he was an unskilled worker, and it was tough work. You know, they’d be in like the slaughterhouses cutting up meat, and it was refrigerated. But I never heard my dad complain, I never saw my mother and father argue. You know, you are ignorant, you grow up in an environment, you don’t see all these luxuries. Now, when I started going to Nathan Bishop, I would walk by all these beautiful homes on the East Side, mansions, you know like the John Brown House we were in the other day. You just, that was a different world, you never though about. Just like I never thought anything about college, never thought about going to college.


TOBIAS: When you walked would you have to go by Brown University?

COSTA: When I was going to Hope, mostly when I was going to Hope I went by Brown University all the time.

TOBIAS: So did you see the college students?

COSTA: I could see them all the time. Sometimes we would harass them. We would watch them play tennis, they had huge tennis courts where the parking lot is on Brooks, Williams, and Power Street, Thayer Street there. That parking lot was tennis courts and we would wait for them to hit a ball over the fence and would take it and run. Once in awhile they would chase us. You know it was a whole different world, they lived in a different world. No, not very many Brown, Fox Pointers ever thought they would go to Brown. That was an anomaly for a Fox Pointer to go to Brown. Though there was one fellow who lived next to me, he was a Brown graduate, Manny Cabral. And he had motivated had my brother to study and said that he should try to go to college. My brother went to college because of Professor Damon at Brown University. Took a liking to my family.

TOBIAS: How did you, how did you meet Professor Damon?

COSTA: I met him through my oldest brother. The guys were, we always played in the streets, and only lived two minutes from us Professor Damon. And one of the kids broke one of his windows. And my oldest brother went up the next day and offered to repair it. And I only found this out maybe three years ago, my brother was telling me this. And that started a unique friendship. My brother would take care of his home. They had a big home, he and his wife they didn’t have any children. And Foster Damon was a very erudite well read person but he had very limited mechanical skills. So my brother did all the mechanical things for him, my brother was very good with hands, with wood, electrical work, and that started it. Because of him, you know, five, six, seven, eight Costas ended up going through Brown.

TOBIAS: Did he get them scholarships?

COSTA: I guess he got him some kind of scholarships because I remember when he, my brother was saying he came down and tell him my brother go up and talk to Dean of Admissions. And my brother said said, quoting him, I can’t go to Brown. And he said just go up and see the Dean of Admissions. And I think tuition at that time was $300 a year, no $1800 a year. And that was a lot of money, my father probably made $2,000 a year. So I guess that he got some scholarships, and Professor Damon may have augmented whatever else was required. So my brother went to Brown.

TOBIAS: Was it difficult for him to be at Brown?

COSTA: It was because he was working. He had to work, he worked 46 hours a week at a hardware store, and he lived at home, and he would go to the hardware store between


classes. And he and I slept in the same room, same bed, and I would see him studying at night till the wee hours. Reading out loud to improve his diction and articulation. And there wasn’t anybody in my home that he could turn to. So all the education material, dictionaries and everything, were things that he had purchased. So I think he had it pretty rough.

TOBIAS: Was there, like, was it difficult for him to become friends with the Brown students who probably had more money?

COSTA: I never really got into that. My brother was a very quiet person, a very private person. And some of these things I’m just telling you know, he didn’t tell me these until he knew that he was dying. I was sort of, recalcitrant, always out in the street playing. But he was a studious guy, always have his mind set. I know that he didn’t really engage in many of the activities up there because he didn’t have the monies. And not only that right from class he had to go to work. When I look back at it, the hours that he worked is unbelievable going to college.

TOBIAS: So why did you decide to leave Hope High School and join the army?

COSTA: Because I wasn’t doing well in school, and I didn’t like school, and I always wanted to go in the Navy, and I always wanted to go on submarines. So as soon as I was old enough to go in the Navy. Well actually I quit school and worked a little bit, just in menial jobs. And when I was 17, hounded my folks to sign for me to go in the service and I went in the Navy.

TOBIAS: What was your parents reaction when you told them you wanted to join the Navy?

COSTA: Well they were kind of upset, they didn’t want to see me go. I was still a kid, I was 17 years old. But they finally signed and I went off. I had two brothers in the Army at that time, my oldest brother was in the Army and I had another brother who was in Korea. So I went off. TOBIAS: Where was the first place that you served in?

COSTA: I went to boot camp in Bay Ridge, Maryland. After boot camp, I went to Great Lakes, the school, and from there I went to Hawaii to my first ship which was stationed out of Pearl Harbor Hawaii. I was on board that for about a year, a destroyer. And then I came back to the East Coast to submarine school, and I went aboard a submarine that two days after I reported aboard it, it went out to sea for six months, cruise to the Medittereanean and Europe.

TOBIAS: Can you talk about some prejudices

COSTA: What’s that


TOBIAS: Can you talk about some of the prejudices that you encountered when you

COSTA: I never really encountered any prejudices that, not real prejudices. But I saw them. The blacks, you know, it was tough on them. The only thing is, I had it tough, because I didn’t have a formal education. And I was in a group with many guys that had, even when I first went to school in Great Lakes, a lot of those guys had bachelors and masters degree. And I was wondering why I was having such a tough time learning electrical which was basically all math. And that was esoteric to me, I never had algebra, that’s a foreign language. So, it was tough until I started getting motivated to get off my butt and hit the books. And I was one of, like I told you, never studied. So it was difficult. And the Navy schools they are very accelerated. I mean, I went to one school that was a year that was equivalent to three years of college. They just move on. Well, that school there we started with two and two is four and we were at integrated class, you know, at the end of the week. They just move on, it was sort of a refresher.

TOBIAS: What kind of work did you do on the submarines?

COSTA: I was in electrical work all the time. I was a sort of sophisticated electrician. Interior communications electrician. Not operating, I was basically repairing and making sure all the equipment was working. From telephone systems to diving controls in the communications systems. Later on, close circuit television. That, we did have motor generators, which submarines really ran on direct power, DC, direct current, and we had motor generators that would convert direct current to alternating current. And we had those motor generators. But the actual big, direct current motors were run by, serviced by electricians. And I was, like I told you, an interior communications electrician.

TOBIAS: Yeah. So where were some of the places you served while being in the Navy COSTA: I’ve been all over the world many times. I’ve been all over Europe, the Mediterranean, the Far East, Korea, Vietnam.

TOBIAS: How often would you go home? Like how many

COSTA: Not very often

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: I, well, when I first, the first submarine I was on was out of New London, Connecticut. So on weekends I would come home, when the ship was in port. But, then, when I went to the West Coast. From there I went to school for about fifteen months, back to Great Lakes to advanced electrical school. From there I went to the West Coast to put a nuclear submarine into commission. It was the world’s first nuclear power missile submarine.

TOBIAS: What year was this?


COSTA: What’s that

TOBIAS: What year was this?

COSTA: 1958 U.S.S Halibut SSGN587. And then I was on the West Coast all the time with the exception of when I came back east. I went to other schools I went to Great Lakes going to school again and finished about a year and half of school there. And Vietnam War was in, and they were looking for Navy Seals and I volunteered for that. So I passed all the qualifications and I went to Little Creek, Virginia for training there. And then I was stationed there for awhile with the Seal team in Little Creek. And from there I went to Vietnam and all different places.

TOBIAS: So what was it like? How many years did you serve in Vietnam?

COSTA: I never actually served there years. We would go in for certain missions and we would come back out. I did three different tours there.

TOBIAS: So were you there during the height of the Vietnam War.

COSTA: Yeah. I saw my share of battle.

TOBIAS: Was it difficult constantly being

COSTA: No because I was well trained. I was, one thing I can say, in the service submarines I was well trained to do my jobs and it was all volunteers. And the Seals were all volunteers. So I was with a rather more sophisticated group of people. People that had a better education than the average grunt. So I always like what I was doing. It was tough when I reflect back on it now, I wonder “God how did I ever do it.”

TOBIAS: Yeah. When did you meet your wife?

COSTA: I met my wife, she was friends with my sister. They use to play together. And then I think

TOBIAS: So she was from Fox Point

COSTA: She was a Fox Pointer. And I think when my wife was going to URI is the first time I asked her for a date. And, then I would date on and off. And we dated for about eight years. Because, you know I had a tough life in the military, I was here one day gone the next day. I never knew if I was going to come back or not because I was in some pretty good firefights in my day. Well I was never going to get married, but I got wounded and I spent a lot of time in the hospital, and that’s actually how I got married.

TOBIAS: So what year did get married.


COSTA: I got married in 1968

TOBIAS: Then, so when did you finally leave the Army, the Navy

COSTA: The Navy? In 1975

TOBIAS: And you moved back to Providence.

COSTA: When we left the Navy? Yes, my wife came with me in the Navy, we moved to the West Coast and I put another nuclear submarine in commission. And then we went, I got transferred to Japan, and we lived in Japan there and we had two children born in Japan. And then when I left the military and we came back to Providence, and I’ve been living here ever since in the house.

TOBIAS: How did Fox Point change since, during the time that you were in the military?

COSTA: How did Fox Point do what?

TOBIAS: Change

COSTA: Oh! When I left, you know, it was predominately Portuguese and Irish people there were a little mixture a little others. And at that time I would call Cape Verdeans Portuguese, since then they’ve separated and they’ve became an independent nation. Then it was a lot of blacks. And it was a good community. And then Brown started, Brown students started moving in and people start raising rents because they could get so much more money from Brown students. Of course, I was gone most of that time. And then the Boys Club had moved. They closed Tockwotton library which is now the Rhode Island Historical Library, the building. They moved to a bathhouse. And I think the politicians in Fox Point were obsequious to the higher ups, the mayor, the governors, that we lost things in Fox Point that we should have never lost. We lost Tockwotton park, a beautiful park, they built a school there. My personal opinion is that it would have never happened in another community. I found it very different in terms of that the people that were living there. We lost many of the ethnic stores, clubs that we had there, and Fox Point just transcends, transcended to the rest of the country. Most Fox Pointer I think moved to East Providence, many moved to Cranston and Warwick, but I think the majority moved to East Providence. And all over the state, and all over the country. But it was sad, and it really pains me when I go through Fox Point now. When I was young I could walk through Fox Point and it would take me three hours saying hello to everyone. Now I walk through at times and there’s not one person that I know, that I grew up with.

TOBIAS: How did the highway change the neighborhood, was that

COSTA: Well that was really built while I was in the service. But that really divided Fox Point. It split, there was an area, the south side of the highway now, that was predominately a black Cape Verdean community down there. Then it had just above it, to the east of it, was a lot of white people, Portuguese people. And of course what they


did to the South Main Street they moved the blacks and Cape Verdeans out of there. And, that’s what started people moving to the suburbs because there were no places to live. And of course Brown University was buying up more and more property and the rents were going up. It just became unreachable. Today, a home that I lived in which was like $1800 dollars is selling for $600,000. It’s ridiculous. Brown is good but I think they did a lot of damage to the neighborhood. They should have kept, allowed, people to stay in there. But then again I blame the natives, the Portuguese and Irish that lived there, they could get big dollars for their property and they could get good rents and so they raised their rents. And the average Fox Pointer couldn’t afford, so they had to go other where, other places. We had everything, it was self sustaining community. We had many different shops, we had pretty much everything we needed there.

TOBIAS: Were most people renting their apartments?

COSTA: I would say the majority, but you know. Most of the property there was owned by the local people. There was a lot of property that were owned by Jewish people, Schechman, Isadore Schechman owned a lot of. I lived in one of his houses and he owned a lot of property on Wickenden Street and South Main Street. Then his nephew I guess bought a lot more land. And people started speculating and buying more, more property, but I was away when most of that was really happening. So.

TOBIAS: So when you came back you found that Fox Point was very different

COSTA: Oh it wasn’t the Fox Point I knew. Like I pretty much knew almost all the houses like Transit Street, Sheldon, Brook, and Arnold everyone that lived in these houses. When I came back it was all different, all different. There were many college students living in the area too. And they were pretty much starting to cater to the college students at that time. And I had, you know, a lot of family when I came back in the service, and I needed a big home and they were out of reach.

TOBIAS: So are there other Portuguese people living in this neighborhood?

COSTA: I don’t think there’s any other Portuguese people that I know of. We came here, it was predominately an Italian, Irish neighborhood. Though my neighbors across the street were Jewish. And then, there is Lebanese, General Treasurer Anthony Solomon that lived behind me, he’s Lebanese. And I’m sure other nationalities, religions, but we’re the only Portuguese family that I know of that time living here. Now, we are one of the oldest families that are living here.

TOBIAS: When your kids were born would you take them over to Fox Point?

COSTA: I took all my kids to Fox Point, I showed them the house where I was born, and all my children know Transit Street very well. I think that. I can reflect back when my father-in-law passed away at his wake how many people came up and said, “I use to live on Transit Street, I used to live on Transit Street.” And my son Michael came up to me and said “Dad, did everyone in Fox Point live on Transit Street.” But as I started doing


research, quite a few of the people that I knew at one point or another lived on Transit Street. It’s really, I would say, at least 70% of the people at one time or another lived on Transit Street. So, and I found that many people moved from one tenement to another as their families grew. They went to a bigger dwelling.

TOBIAS: What happened to your parents? Did they have to leave Fox Point?

COSTA: Well at one point, they bought a house in East Providence. And I told you my oldest brother was very crafty, the one who went to Brown, Tony. And he completely renovated that house put a new heating system, all new plumbing. He and my brother Eddie they did that all themselves. Put new windows, build new rooms. And my mother never saw it, she had a heart attack and died just before the house was ready. My dad lived there, and it was really a very very nice home. Then my brother Ernie took it over and he lived there until he bought a home, when my dad died he bought a house, my brother bought a house on Elm Grove Avenue. Right next door to the Marvel Gym, right across from the Brown Football Stadium. He lived there, he was employed by Brown until he passed away. But, sometime while I was in the service around the 60’s my folks moved out of Fox Point.

TOBIAS: And, your other neighbors also were moving out of Fox Point?

COSTA: Pretty much. My brother lived in East Providence, my brother Eddie. My sister lives up in Smithfield. Not, I don’t think I know more than five families that live in Fox Point, the original Fox Pointers that I knew, today.

TOBIAS: Yeah. So how did you start getting on this collecting photographs thing? When did that start?

COSTA: Well as I was going back to Fox Point at different times, a lot of nostalgia, it was almost like a nostalgic tour for me going through Fox Point. And I start reflecting back on some of the great times we had and how close Fox Pointers were. And I said, you know this history is going to go and nobody is going to know anything about it. So I decided, I start collecting photos, and I started inquiring different people. And I met a lot of resistance when I first started. I had people say “Louie” or “Lou Lou, what are trying to do, make money, what are you trying to do.” And I said “I’m trying to preserve the Fox Point that we knew from the 30s to the 60s. Well it just grew and mushroomed and I started, I went way back to 1900, and all the way to the present time. And my photos encompassed anything that has any bearing with Fox Point. If you had, grandchildren or if your progenitors lived in Fox Point, you are Fox Pointer as far as I’m concerned and you can be in that collection. But you have to have some tie to Fox Point. There are few other photos in there that are not Fox Pointers, but it was like the city of the Providence what I knew when I was a kid, South Main Street. South Main Street was a part of Fox Point at that time. But I have like other photos in there that just bring back what was like in the 30s 40s and 50s. Things that we knew, how it was in those days.

TOBIAS: Did people, these are photos that people had in their house


COSTA: Most of them are photos that people had in their homes. I had some that I cut from books and archives in the libraries and these are like municipal buildings or movie theaters things of that nature. I got some great photos of people that had them in their homes, and used to be a guy who was a swimming director at the Boys Club, Joseph Barton Latham, he was a great amateur, I say amateur, I could really say a professional photographer. And he took many many photos. And he gave me many photos because I use to take the swimming pool for some of his classes on a Friday night. And, I gave a lot of them to the Rhode Island Historical Society which is not been very grateful to share them with me anymore. They said I gave them to them and they are theirs. But I’ve had other people that had photos and I got some from my brother who had inherited them from Professor Damon. So, that’s where I’m up to over 8,000 photos at the present time

TOBIAS: So, when could you got the photos from people do you also get stories?

COSTA: I’ve got some stories. I have recorders and I started using them when I first started. But I find some people intimidated by recorders and they are reticent to say things to me. And I don’t spell well and I can’t type well. So, thanks to you Josh I got a lot of captions of photos because you volunteered the service and did a lot of typing for me and I am forever grateful for that, Johnny Costa and I both.

TOBIAS: Are people, sort of, do people have different, kind of, memories of the neighborhood that you want to share

COSTA: They do, and you are going to find, everything is going to be subjective opinion. You know, I can see that door is white and you may see it as beige or blue or whatever. So, I think generally speaking you are going to find most people would say that we are a close community and a happy community in our own sense and that there really wasn’t any real prejudice in Fox Point, I’m sure there as some latent prejudices, but I can say that I don’t remember any. I think it was a happy community and that’s one of the reasons I started doing this history of Fox Point because of the wonderful memories that I had. We’ve lived in California, we’ve lived in Chicago, and we’ve lived in Japan, and I can remember when we moved my wife and I in California people say they’ve been living in this neighborhood 40 years and never been to each other’s houses. And my wife and I were pretty gregarious, well we are gregarious, even in this neighborhood. When we first moved here we brought everybody over. It was another thing here, people said to us, you know, they’ve been living here 30, 40 years and sometimes never spoke to each other. But it wasn’t like that in Fox Point because in the summer everybody sat outside on their doorsteps and walking everyplace. Very few people had cars when I was young, so you walk by and you said hello to everybody and you got to know everybody. And I think it’s such a wonderful memories when I think about the old men with their straw hats, tipping their hats to the ladies. Good memories.

TOBIAS: What are some of your favorite places from the old Fox Point that you remember?


COSTA: Tockwotton Park, Tockwotton Library, the Boys Club was probably my most favorite and they started East Street Recreation Center—that started in the 40s. I spent a lot of time there. I had good mechanical skills and they taught me how to operate the movie projector, 16mm movie projector. So I was the projectionist when they had movies there. Of course, Holy Rosary Church, everything was focused on the church, I had feasts in the summertime around Holy Rosary Church. And then we were street kids, we just hung around the streets and did what we had to do. Going into people yards and steal their grapes, and apples, and pears off their trees. Everybody had fruit trees, and grapevines in those days. And almost everybody in Fox Point made wine, you know not to sell, they would have their own homemade wine and we drank it. And a few made moonshine. I know around the holidays was a lot of moonshine when I was kid.

TOBIAS: Were you ever allowed to have some, or was that

COSTA: I always drank wine at the table at home, and my father would drink beer and would give me a little bit of the beer. And you know I never craved for any drinks because you know I never drank a few bottle of beer or a big glass of wine but always tasted it. It was just a natural thing.

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: Because like in Portugal and the old countries the water wasn’t that good so kids grew up drinking wine and beer because it was, you know, purer and healthy. Which water had more of a tendency to be contaminated then you know wine and beer did I guess. But I, you know, it was there we never touched it. Basically my house I always had, you know, liquor my kids I never saw them drink like some of these kids do today. But my kids wanted some wine or taste of beer stuff like that they were always welcome to do it. They never, would never drink a bottle of beer or full glass of wine or anything like that, it was basically the way I grew up,

TOBIAS: Do you remember, like, with your father, did your father go to any bars or

COSTA: The only, well two, I remember him going to the East Side Bar, which was a very quiet bar at 216 Wickenden Street which was a very quiet bar. And he would go to the Portuguese club. And my sister just told me the other day that she remembered waking up when my father would go to the Portuguese club. She wake up Saturday morning, he would usually go there on a Friday night or a Saturday, and she would wake up and find a bag of peanuts under her pillow. And, that’s the first I heard, I only heard this in the last week. And I thought that was pretty nice, I think a bag of peanuts was probably five cents. But then again that was a lot of money for my father at that time.

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: It’s, we kids used to collect bottles and cash the bottles in, you know two cents return for bottles. It was a way to generate revenue. We had penny candy believe it or


not. So we get five cents we could buy five pieces of candy. Ice cream was a big treat, ice cream was five cents. But hat was a lot of money to spend.

TOBIAS: What kind of, what would your dad do at the Portuguese-American Social Club

COSTA: They would play cards usually, they would go there and the old men would play cards. That was what they would do was play cards. Probably have a glass or two of beer maybe three I don’t know. And they did that for a long time I remember the old timers come in and playing cards. The young guys never bothered those, that was another thing there was a lot of respect for older people, for elderly people. I got to say when I go to the Portuguese club now, the people, you know, offer me respect. I find it hard to believe I’m 71, they’re nice they always offer me a drink. I don’t drink very much. And in nice weather I still ride a bicycle. Seventy years old and I was riding from here to Fox Point on my bicycle. And hopefully, good Lord willing, I’ll be doing it again. I would ride from here to the East Side. I used to ride all the way up to Bristol, I would take the bike route from here I would go all the way up to the bike path in East Providence and ride to Bristol. I did that last year. But now I’m having trouble, I’m getting Carpal Tunnel in my hands and my butt. But.

TOBIAS: What would you like to see the photographs be used for? Like what would you, how would you like to see Fox Point being preserved?

COSTA: Well I wanted to donate these to this new museum that they’re building with the old Narragansett Electric Company. Then I was going to give these to the Rhode Island Historical Society but they have not been friendly, user-friendly, to me. So, I’m pretty much going to donate them to special collections at Rhode Island College. Because that’s free and there’s a lady there, oh god this is embarrassing I can’t think of her name, well anyhow she lived in Fox Point and she was so wonderful made everything available to me had all books waiting for me when I went there. And that’s where all this material will go. Because I want it to be accessible for free to anyone that wants to see it. That’s my objective, I want to see whatever I have. I’m hoping to get a book out on the Fox Point neighborhood but I need people that can type and spell. I finally did make some disks that I’m going to send to the publisher, ask them which photos they’d like to use. But one of the things I had, the publisher wants all original photos, and I had a caveat with the people that if they lend me their photos I would return them. And many of them I returned. And many of these people are deceased now and their kids and throwing the photos away. You know, the young people photos don’t mean anything to them they are junk and you can’t believe how many people are throwing photos away that I would have loved to have.

TOBIAS: Yeah

COSTA: So, the last collection I have was from the Alves family which their home was just torn down on Alves way in front of Holy Rosary Church. And those were in the dumpster. Somebody was wise enough they secured them and they gave them to me. So


that’s what my objective is to preserve this and hopefully because, you know, I’m getting up there in age and Johnny Costa and I got to get all this information written down. We’ll never write it down because we both lack those skills. We got to get somebody that, like you, you’ve been so gracious with your time and everything, get all these photos documented, and this history. And you know I had many serendipities since I’ve been doing this. I found out the history of Holy Rosary Church, for years in my generation a man that went to jail for setting that church afire he didn’t really set that church afire, that was one of the things. And then, doing research I found other serendipities that I, very enlightening to me that I never knew about. So I probably know more about Fox Point and I have some of the Fox Pointers that are my age and older, you know, contradict things that I say. But if I tell you something it’s because I read it, I can verify it. If I don’t know I can say this is what I’ve been told. And I don’t change some of these people that are senior then me, because they have a mindset and I let them go and thinking the way they are thinking. You know, I mentioned to them once or twice, they were adamant about what they are saying I’ll let it be. But the old timers know, I’m 71 and I’m talking about people that are in their eighties and nineties, one is a hundred. They’ve been very very helpful to me, they’ve shared anything that I wanted. And many of them are happy that somebody is doing this.

TOBIAS: How would you explain to somebody who is maybe growing up in Fox Point today, how would you explain the neighborhood that you grew up in?

COSTA: I don’t know exactly what you are asking me Josh

TOBIAS: What would you say to someone, maybe, a child who is growing up in Fox Point today, how would you, sort of, describe to them or explain to them the neighborhood that you grew up in?

COSTA: Basically what I was telling you. They had so many more facilities. Well, they had the Boys Club right there with a beautiful swimming pool. That’s another thing we lost, we had an outdoor swimming pool. I would tell them they’re missing the beautiful park that we had. We had a great ball field down there. We had a wonderful library—the Tockwotton library. We used to have outdoor movies in Tockwotton park once a week in the summer. Martinelli, I think was the name of the family, Martinelli. They would come and they would sell popcorn and candy apples and they would show movies. Had lots of great athletes in Fox Point. If they had been growing up in this generation many of them would have been playing professional sports and making millions of dollars. One of the guys that was a great athlete was Johnny Britto, another one “Melay” Charlie Simon, Fred Slaimen, my father-in-law Nash Soares, other guys who I just can’t, I don’t want to neglect anyone. Great soccer players, Noel Roberts was a great soccer player, a great baseball player. A lot of talent, we had some great fighters, and then Rocky Marciano was the heavyweight champion of the world had most of his fights in Providence. The fight promoter, Manny Almeida, lived on Brook Street between Wickeden and Sheldon Street. George Araujo was a world class boxer from Fox Point. Harold Chevy Gomes, his mother still lives on Wickeden Street, a Fox Pointer he was a flyweight fighter, world champion fighter. We had great soccer players, great soccer


teams, good swimmers. Al Mello, I don’t really want, I shouldn’t be naming people because I’m sure I’m leaving out lots of good athletes. But we had a lot good talents. We had some great ballgames, great baseball games. I was not an athlete, but we had some good competitions. Local 57 played all around the country was one of the fastball slow-pitch.

TOBIAS: What was, was that a team?

COSTA: That was a team. Local 57 is a union, operating engineering union. And they sort of supported this team. And my father-in-law was the manager of that team for awhile. I look today it was about five fire chiefs, chiefs of the departments were from Fox Point. And it was tough for a Portuguese person even to become a firefighter when I was a kid. Even the Irish Fox Pointer had a tough time getting some of those jobs. You never saw a Portuguese policeman or fireman in those days. And the first policeman was a Fox Pointer, a black policeman was from Fox Point. First firefighter in the Providence Fire Department was from Fox Point, black fire fighter. So we have a lot of heritage from Fox Point. And I look today that so many of the guys I grew up with their children or grandchildren are high ranking military officers and excelled in Police Departments and Fire Departments. So it makes me proud. No matter where you go, what city, state, what country you are in, a Fox Pointer always stop and talk to each other. I’ve met Fox Pointers in Paris, I met them in Bangkok, I met them in China, Japan. Always friendly. In Florida I was walking down the beach in Sarasota, Saratoga Florida. And I heard “Lou Lou” and I knew it had to be a Fox Pointer. In Florida! Walking down on the beach in my home. And right away I knew it was a Fox Pointer. And everybody had nicknames in Fox Point, everybody had a nickname.

TOBIAS: How would somebody get their nickname?

COSTA: You know, I don’t remember how everybody got their nicknames. You know if you goofed, if you did something stupid that a name could be associated with it you would live with it for the rest of your life. I mean, I was sitting down one time with Johnny Britto when I first started this we filled a whole page with nicknames. And how many people we didn’t know their real name! We just knew nicknames. I mean, China Block, Lino, Ting Ting, La La, Joe Feet, Joe Kurtz, Tillie, King, now these are all guys I’m talking about, Wowie, Mussie, Lou Lou, Whitie, Chink, Cling Cling, Sarge, Too Too, you know there is so many more that I just can’t think of right off hand, Dinky, Nash, Slim, Dada, China Block. But everybody had a nickname.

TOBIAS: So even to this day people still use their nicknames

COSTA: If I’m talking to an old timer, if I were to call up and say “This is Lou Costa” “Who?” “Lou Lou” “Oh Lou Lou, how are you? How is your family?” That’s the way it is! If I tell you to go to interview somebody if you suggest somebody. You know if you say “Lou Costa”, “Lou Costa?”. If you say “Lou Lou”, “Oh sure I know him.” And that’s faded, because I don’t see too many people with nicknames today. And it’s really funny when you think that how many people I didn’t know their real names. We still


discuss today about a guy who used to call “Doc.” And everybody, the younger generation tells me it’s another guy, or a guys brother. Well both the brothers are alive. And I say “Ask Don Savage what we would call him when we were kids in the 50s.” And now they are going the 60s and 70s saying that this guy was called Doc. I mean could have very well been called Doc but his brother had the original name.

TOBIAS: So your friends are both Cape Verdean and Portuguese mixed. It wasn’t separation?

COSTA: I had friend right. A friend was a Fox Pointer, he wasn’t Cape Verdean, black, white, Irish, Jewish, Lebanese, he was a Fox Pointer. Those were our friends. And if people ask you, you know, “would I?” I don’t remember people saying I’m black or white or anything, I’m Portuguese or Lebanese, or else I’m a Fox Pointer.

TOBIAS: So there wasn’t like racial

COSTA: I’m sure there was some latent racial things. Of course being Caucasian I wasn’t exposed to some of it. And I remember at different times people telling me things. But I can say I’m proud of it that my friends are Fox Pointers and I don’t care what church they went to or what color what they were or which country they came from. They were a Fox Pointer they were a friend. We were pretty well integrated. Like I say I’m sure there was racial preferences but, you know, I didn’t see them. I could hide, I could say I was Jewish, or Irish, or whatever. A black person couldn’t well say that so. I’m sure they had some difficult times.

I know some of the guys that I went into the service told me some of the things that they went to. And then I saw it in the service but nothing like they did. And the light complexion Cape Verdeans had difficulty. Some were put in the white outfits, some were put in the black outfits. And they had tough times. So unless you are actually in that predicament it’s very hard to know. You know I’d ask some of my black friends and Cape Verdean friends “Why did you go down south to there, why did you move down there.” “Ah those rednecks don’t bother me.” Some of them had difficult times. And you can’t really appreciate unless you’ve been in those positions. So I think they had a greater struggle than the Caucasian people. And I’m very proud to say that they are my good friends like Johnny Costa, how many people today take him for my cousin, my brother, doesn’t effect me at all. My good friend, you have not met him, Tony Britto there is a photo of he and I, Johnny Britto’s brother, and Tony is of very dark complexion. But we’ve passed for years. We told people we’re cousins, you know people would look at us but nobody would have asked.

TOBIAS: I think we’re going to end the interview now

COSTA: Ok

TOBIAS: But I really appreciate


COSTA: My pleasure young man, I appreciate what you’ve done for me. You are a motivating factor in me getting some of these photographs identified and I told you. Johnny and I would still like to take you to lunch.

TOBIAS: And I also appreciate you doing this interview and helping our class and helping find people

COSTA: I will do anything I can. I feel bad that I didn’t tell Johnny. I forgot who is interviewing him, do you remember?

TOBIAS: No

COSTA: He has a wealth of knowledge. Do you need a ride back?

TOBIAS: Let me turn off the tape.

lou costa interview transcript

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arnold street school