malcolm x little - federal bureau of investigation
TRANSCRIPT
FEDER,@92L�Bi"�§EAu OF INVESTIGATION
MALCOLM X LITTLE
PART 17 OF 24
BUFILE 100 399321
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mro aulnitted 14 rolls or 16m movie film ceBureau, attention Mechanical Section, on 3/16/65, to be 'developed in view or the fact that film was marked "Exposed"when received by the MO. . .
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COMM-FBI ��'i
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[3 film has been developedC] enlargement s! made[:1 positive copy made[3 print s! made[:| slide s! made[3 ne3ative s! made|:| Photostars made
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rnon new YORK 105 8999 � ;*; ZP.92/~//70 ALL INFOPMATIOII: covr
DATE BY J,/.19.:/45" ,33;/� w MARCH �Q�
HAS INTER-
snoerxue or MALCOLM x AT was AUDUBON BALLROOM on FEB. rusuwr
FIVE. stares as was NOT IN was BALLROOM on res. twenty
FIVE. rm-"0 mzcmvsn rm-11* -was AT BALLR6SE=iSSUED SUBPOENA TO APPEAR AT NY COUNTY GJ., HARCH
SIXTY FIVE. URING INTERVIEW, ATTEMPTED TO RECORD
WITH NYCPD ON SMALL TRAN __ R RECORDER. _ J, A Bésqcodrfg-Z� 99-STATED NO SUSPECTS D OLE
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= ALL IPIFOPEATION co ~- eSUBJECT l I 1 S TN 1 in. I�. .. . . _ DATE , _, . .. .
ReNYairte1 to the Director dated 3/8/65.
Dur weeks March 7 and 114, 1965,were shown photographs orv ua s enumerate low, but were unable to
identify amr or these individuals as being inattendance at the OMU meeting at which MALCOLM I
$3 1:111�, 2/21/65. held 166th Street and Broadway,
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e MAR _ 19651-Newark1-Philadelphia.1-New York --
4-750 Rev. 4-17-B5!
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FEDERAL BUREAU or l|tVE$11GATl0l
FUIPI DELETED FIG! IIIFUHITIOII SHEET
Page s! withheld entirely at this location in the file. One or more of the following statements, whenindicated. eirplein mie deletion. ~
Deleted under examptionta! b! _ with no segreiabiematerial available for release to you.
Information pertained only to a third party with no reference to you or the subject of your request.
information pertained only to a third party. Your name is listed in the title only.
Documents originated with another Govemment agency�es!. These documents were referred to thatagency�es! for review and direct response to you.
Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency ies!. You will be advised by the FBI asto the releasability of this information following our consultation with the other agency ies!.
Pagels! withheld for the following reason s!:
For your infonnation: .__ _::_ _ _ _
The following number is to be used for reference regarding these pages:Q -92 92 '1 O0 '7 It I "'3-r I A
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BEFORE NY COUNTY GRAND JURY IN NEAR FUTURE-
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FROM NEW YQRK /I05-89991�
_ IQ/MALCOLM KRITTLE AKA, Is-mu.' ' RENYTEL, [man :5-22-es.
WAS A MEMBER N01
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nus mm: RE KILLING or MALCOLM x.�N0w INTERVIEW-me �/Known mm MEMBER was DEFECTED FROM NOI,�
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10' 7 PH URGENT -3-24-65 DAE
to nxnzcron -13- 100-399321 1 p
rnou new YORK 105-6999 EL~ '. .� _ �
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I . U _ / - fl r.MALCOLM K. LITTLE AKA, IS�MMI¢¥J V� . �1/¢_�,"u..
RENYTEL, MARCH TWENTY THREE SIXTY FIVE
/MARCH TWENTY FOUR, SIXTY FIVE THAPD mncn rm-:m"r �runs: snrrv 1-�1v1:.-
navxue, nzrzctsn rnon no: mosouz NUMBER szvzn,
nun MALCOLM x. �AID �ms orrzn w
no1'iu n§5nan A GROUP or PERSONS wuoT-"3 /
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n ~MATION
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was INTEBVIEVED Ymws/¢.'2_.*m:»
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ITTED BEING nausea qgg
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STRONGARN TACTICS. HE NAMED THE! AS TALHAGE HAYER, NORMAN BUTLERg_THOHA$Jom~zsoN. ~
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HAYER, BUTLER AND JOHNSON HERE RECENTLY INDICTED FOR
xxums or na1.con x . �nns no PLANS or INTER-VIEVING ABOVE LISTED PERSONS UNTIL INFO CAN BE CORROBORATED
BY nuormzn unuzss. �'rmu' mwsn IS to as ARRAIGNED AGAIN
�N� ON MARCH TWENTY FIVE, SIXTY FIVE, FOR THE SHOOTING OF MALCOLM X AND VILL
THEN as means:-zaarsn AT �rm-: PENITENTIARY AT RIKERS ISLAND, mu __'l�I-{AT nussm FRANCIS, wuo was nnnnstso wuss mauzonx was KILLED on cunness or ASSAULT wxra A nausznous uzasou, was RELEASED
Eon TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS BAIL on nnnc� SIXTEEN, sxxiv FIVI. THE BAIL
IGNED BY 0NE_HAS COVERED BY STUYVESANT INSURANCE CO¢, AFTER CO-S
Y°'~'"@ *��~°°I'='-I� *LLI�"°
RE BEING REOPENED FOR CONSIDERATION FOR THE SECURITY INDEX;
SND AND PLS HOLD.-.¢-.-¢¢--s...» 1. � "�- In-:
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Remlet to New York, dated 2/ ,
' * Enclosed herewith for the Bi:-eeu are 9 copies of awLEM pertaining 130 the death Of HP-LCOLI'l X.
of: tic -_ =<.1 -re furl e�" '� -moist"
b I D I. rue -n _� _-'~< -" ' s . I- - relayed information to SA r � '9' "1: -�/ _j
sth certificate or !4ALCOI.H I was reviewed by _-. -514- Iv . .
' W. ' In View er the fact that nmccom x is deceased, his 9 9remain pending by the KYO in order that theuizresu
kept advised of the pertinent developments in --tigation of the assassination of FLALCOI.M X being conducted
92V 1'0: DIRECTOR, Psi �06-399321!
§5/65 captioned es s �--0
92.
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._: . ~,_�.:.�.- � I. . -. _ U£TED STATES DEPARTMENT OQSTICI
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1-:1. »--=-4� noun. nunmu or INVESTIGATION���" New York. New Yo:k
- 1 I-R-#1.:-1--av-~ - 1-Ia.rc.Ia 214, 1965
*'�'14tw York 105-8999 I V __Q,�
Malcolm K. LittleInternal Security - Muslim mIQ�-1.! Ill�e-5»-.
Characterizations of the Muslim Mosque,Incorporated MMI!, tion of .Afro-American Unity , Nation of
- Islam N01! and MOI
+-.11". -.- �_,
, commonly known , nad jus--- shot in the Audubon Ballroom, New York City, while addressing§§§ an OAAU public rally.E33'-.-37:."-1.�:-_' -. -- --
bq 0�* Mal was on arrival
. Dre J6 A6 Collins at Vanderbilt Clinie- Presbyterian Moepital,
,;� New York Cit on February 21, 1965. I;"rrt.§ n7Ph-4/HP-5e
D lo L45', O roh 18, l965,-a review f New York City'_ Department of Public Health, death ceitificate number 133' lists Malcolm X Little!, also knownéas hl Hajj Malik E1- - Shabazz, 23-ll 97th Street, Queens,, ew- ork, date of birth -
May 19, l925,;at Nebraska, father - Ear -Little, mother -Louise Helen,'died�6n�February 21, l§65 The death certificatereflected that on February 21, 1965, Milton Helpern, M. D.,
� Chief Medical Examiner, New York City, certified the death1' of Malcolm K. Little, caused by multiple shot-gun slugs and. 23 bullet wounds of the chest, heart
lit;-is.;;-S L='92*i;i.i1e3._;i-ii��ll - 3- �BA|E5L,_/I-_&* '$BJ%5p'1m&:.}1Q!
�4§ This document contains neither re¢$§§Z%a§¬§%ne norlgénglgsioneof the FBI, It is the property of the FBI and is loaned toyour agency; it and its contents are not to be distributedoutside your agency.
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Christ, New York City, on February 27, 1965, and he wasburied at Ferneliff Cemetery, Hartsdale, New York.
wantedfuneralofGrave diggers at the Ferncliff Cemetery
to leave Malcolm K=e coffin above ground until theparty left the cemetery. Attorney Milton R. HenryPontiac, Michigan, insisted that the coffin be lowered bymembers of the "Nationalists" and also that they wouldbury Malcolm X's body rather than having him buried by anywhite man. Services ended at Ferncliff Cemetery at12:58 p.m., February 27, 1965, with Malcolm X being buriedby members .'>f the MIVII.
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l; QEPENDIX T
ORGANIZATlQN,0F AFRO-AMERIQAN UNITY QAAQ1 4
' On June 28, 196A, MALCOLM X LITTLE, rounder and�rileader ef the Muslim masque, Incorporated MEI!, publiclyannounced the formation of a new, all Negro, militant civilrights action group to be known as the Organization of Afro-American Unity OAAU!, with himself as Chairman. Thisannouncement was made at a public rally held by the MMIin the Audubon Ballroom, Broadway and 166th Street, NewYork City.
A printed and published statement of basic OAAUaims read by MALCOLM X at this meeting indicates that itshall include "all" people of African descent in theWestern Hemisphere, as well as "our" brothers and sisterson the African continent. It is patterned after the "letterand spirit" of the Organization of African Unity establishedéby Aggégan heads of States! at Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, in
33» -
A recording of the remarks of MALCOLM X at thismeeting indicates that the aim of the OAAU is to eliminatedifferences between Negroes so they can work together for"human rights," while the initial objective is to"internationalize" the American civil rights movement bytaking it to the United Nations. LITTLE condemned the non-violent civil rights movement and claims that Negroes shouldbe taught to protect themselves, when and if necessary.The OAAU will sponsor a program for Negroes of education,politics, culture, economics and social reform.
On August 19, 196b, a confidential source advisedthat the headquarter: of the nuan-are located 1n Mm; head-quarters, Suite 128, Hotel Theresa, 2090 Tth Avenue, New YorxCity. N
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The March 13, 1964, edition-of "Tho N08 York Tilllghhaaha daily newspaper published in New York, New York, contsino0*" 'ah article oh page 2o which indicated that hatcoah x {LITTLE},former national official of the Nation of Islam NOI! whobroke with the NOI on March B 196R, publicly announced inNew York City on March 12 1961;, that he had formed the MuslimMosque, Incorporated MMI5, The MMI, according to the articlewould be a broadly based politically oriented black nationalistmovement for Negroes only, financed by voluntary contributions.In this public statement MALCOLM X urged Negroes to abandonthe doctrine of non-violence when it is necessary to defendthemselves in the civil rights struggle, and he also suggestthat Negroes form rifle clubs to protect their lives andproperty in time of emergencies in areas where the govern-ment is unable or unwilling to protect them.
Incorporation papers of the MMI filed on March 16,l96h, with the Business Section, Clerk of Courts, New YorkCounty, New York, New York, reflect that the MI wasincorporated under the Religious Corporation Law of theQ'l':|+n nf� New V01-92Lr 1-n wnrllr f�nr92 1-ha 1r1na'r921"ln nf' thn TmlnminL--i---iv I10 an-n --Q -- -v�-v --v-a-- -w- v�I0w' -.l.r_.-- v'�--9° -- -v--v -.------�v
Faith and Islamic Religion in accordance with acceptedIslamic principals." The principal place of worship to belocated in the Borough of Manhattan, New York, New York.
The May 23, 1965, edition of the "New YorkAmsterdam News," a weekly Negro newspaper published inNew York City, contained an article by columnist JAMESBOOKEH in which he indicated that he had heard that the
visit by MALCOLM X with Muslim leaders during his Africantour has changed him to become soft in his anti-whitefeelings and to become more religious.
On October 6, 196R, a confidential source advisedthat the hhl is apparently affiliated with the true orthodoxIslamic Religion through its affiliation with the Islamic ;Foundation of New York!, 1 Riverside Drive, New York City. iThe only teachings of the MMI are on the Islamic Religion. '
A second confidential source advised on October 20,196b, that the headquarters of the MMI are located in Suite128, Hotel Theresa, 2090 Seventh Avenue, New York, New York,
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1 . APPENDIX �i?
NATION OF ISLAM, formerlyreferred to as the Muslin ~-Cult of Islam, also known as 1�Muha_mmadjs_ Temples of Tslam__ _
. I
In January, 1957, a source advised ELIJAH MUHAMMADhas described his organization on a nationwide basis as the '"Nation of Islam," N01! and "Muhammad's Temples of Islas."
1
On May 8, 1965, a second source advised ELIJABMUHAMAD is the national leader of the N01; Muhammad's templeof Islam No. 2, 5335 South Greenwood Avenue, Chicago, illinois,is_the national headquarters of the NOT; and in mid-1950,MUHAMMAD and other NOI officials, when referring to FWHAMMAD'8organization on a nationwide basis, commenced using either"Mosque" or "Temple" when mentioning one of "Muhammad'sTemples of Islam." 1 _
The NOI is an all-Negro organization which wasoriginally organized in 1930 in Detroit, Michigan. MUHAMMADclaims to have been selected by Allah, the �Supreme leing,to lead the so-called Negro race out of slave� in the wilder-ness of North America by establishing an independent blacknation in the United States. Members following MUI-uMMAD'Steachings and his interpretation of the "Koran belzeve thereis no such thing as a Negro; that the so-called Negroes areslaves of the white race, referred to as "wl'%t_e devils," inthe United States; and that the white race, ecause of itsexploitation of the so-called Negroes, must and will bedestroyed in the approaching "War of Armageddop;P 92
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In the past, officials and members of the NOI,including MUHAMMAD, have refused to register under'theprovisions of the Selective Service Acts and have ieclaredthat members owe no allegiance to the United Stated-92
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On Ma! 5- 1958, the first source advise� �MUHAMMADhad, upon advice of legal counsel, tempered his personal 7
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_ g,_ APPENDIX
NATION OP ISLAM, formerly =referred to as the Muslim iCult or Islam, also known asMgggmmadlg Temples or Islam
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- On Mar 7, 196R, a third source advised Muhammsd'had, early in July, 1958, decided to de-emphasize the religiousaspects of the teachings of Islam and to stress the economicbenefits to be derived by those Negroes who Joined the N01.This policy change, according to MUHAMMAD, would help himacquire additional followers and create more interestlinhis programs. . e
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On May 5, 1963, a source advised that the Nation. of Islam NOI! affiliate in New York City is known as
Mosque #7, also known as Temple 7, and is located at162 West ilbth Street, New York City. Mosque # ispart of the NOI headed by ELIJAH MUHAMMAD, with head-quarters in Chicago, Illinois. Mosque #7 has twobranches; Mosque #78 at 105-03 Northern Boulevard,Queens, New York City, and Mosque #?C at 12G MadisonStreet, Brooklyn, New York.- These branches are partof Mosque #7.
The date Mosque #7 originated in New York city1.. __J_ 1______-�L5 HUI; KNOWN.
However, in connection with the origin orMosque #7, it should be noted that in 1953 a second sourceadvised that there was a Temple of the N01 known to sourcethen as the Muslim Cult of Islam! in New York Cit locatedat 135th Street and 7th Avenue, as far back as l9K7.
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Deleted under exemptionlel ML! - with no se§|e¢al_ie__ _mmnn IVIHIHQ for release m you. " A " "
information pertained only to a third party with no reference to you or the subject of your request.
lnformetion only to 8 third party. Your neme is listed in the title only.
Documents originated with another Government agency�es!. These documents were referred to thatagency ies! for review and direct response to you.
Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency�es!. You will be advised by the FBI asto the releasability of this information following our consultation with the other agency ies!.
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Page�! witihehi entirely at this location in the �le. One or more of the following statementn,indicated, explain this deletion. i
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Re Beaten letter te Director dated 3/3,�and Boston airtel to Director dated 3/8/65, whichenclosed copy of a letterhead memorandum captionedas above.
Enclosed for the Bureau are eight copies andfor New York two copies of a letterhead memorandum datedand captioned as above. This letterhead memorandum is
tnot being classified since it is no %¢'infomation it eontains would r- I!. P Q
was interviewed by SA-no- - ' Imentioned as ha
concern ng members ofof Islam No. 13, Springfield, Mass
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�L Bosto b to establish thet} whereabouts of on Februar 21
5 4' "1965, beyond the face euee He sas repsrted ts ha¥e=iefthis residence at 1130 a.m., on the morning of February 21,1965, and was seen driving off in his automobile. He wasnot present at the services of Muhammad's Temple of IslamNo. 11 on the afternoon of February 21, 1965.
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in theslaying of Malcolm 1 and he himself first heard of iton a radio newscast while he was in his home on February21, 1965. He stated that he does not believe that Muslimswere responsible for the slaying and he has heard nothingfrom fellow Muslims which would make him think differentlyor which would make him think any member of the Boston Templemight have been involved.
511! -esuffering from a lacerated
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was treated by removing �¥%it and obilizi
untihospital repor. s ow
in accident;A characterization of the National of Islam
and Muhammad�: Temple of Islam No. 11 is contained inthe appendix attached hereto.
Muhammad's Temple of Islameld, Ha were absent from
mention in Temple No. 13 o on the partof Nation of Islam members against the followers ofMalcolm X.
A characterization of Muhammad's Temple ofIslam No. 13 is contained in the appendix hereto.
!slam ac!! vitYcontacted and advised that
they had no information which would indicate that any ofthe members of Muhammad's Temple of Islam No. ll hadparticipated in the slaying of Malcolm Little.
This document contains neither recommendations
nor conclusions of the FBI. It is the property of the FBI _and is loaned to your agency; it and its contents are notto be distributed outside your agency.
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APPENDIX
NATION OF ISLAM, formerly �referred to as the Muslim
Cult of Islam, also known as
Muhgmmadfs Templesnog Islam;
In January, 1957, a source advised Elijah Mhammadhas described his organization on a nationwide basis as the"Nation of Islam," NOI! and "Muhammad's Temples of Islam."
On May 8, 196R, a second source advised Elijahuhammad is the national leader of the NOI; Muhammad's Templeof Islam No. 2, 5335 South Greenwood Avenue, Chicago, Illinois,is the national headquarters of the NOI; and in mid-1960,Muhammad and other NOI officials, when referring to Muhammad'sorganization on a nationwide basis, commenced using either"Bbsque" or "Temple" when mentioning one of "Muhammad'sTemples of Islam."
The NOI is an all-Negro organization which wasoriginally organized in 1930 in Detroit, Michigan. Muhammadclaims to have been selected by Allah, the Supreme Being, tolead the so-called Negro race out of slavery in the wildernessof North America by establishing an independent black nationin the United States, Members following Muhammad's teachingsand his interpretation of the "Koran" believe there is nosuch thing as a Negro; that the so-called Negroes are slavesof the white race, referred to as "white devils," in theUnited States; and that the white race, because of itsexploitation of the so-called Negroes, must and will bedestroyed in the approaching "war of Armageddon."
In the past, officials and members of the NOI,including Muhammad, have refused to register under theprovisions of the Selective Service Acts and have declared.that members owe no allegiance to the United States.
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APPENDIX
NATION OF ISLAM, formerlyreferred to as the Muslim
Cult of Islam, also known as
Muhammad's Temples ofWIslsm_ Cont.!
On Nhy 5, 1958, the first source advised Muhammadhad, upon advice of legal counsel, tempered his personalstatements and instructions to his ministers concerning theprinciples of his organization in order to avoid possibleprosecution by the United States Government; however, he didnot indicate any fundamental changes in the teachings of hisorganization.
On May 7, l96#, a third source advised Muhammadhad, early in July, 1958, decided to de-emphasize thereligious aspects of the teachings of Islam and to stressthe economic benefits to be derived by those Negroes whoJoined the NOT, This policy change, according to Mhammad,would help him acquire additional followers and create moreinterest in his programs.
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mnm-mmD's TEMPLE or ISLAM N0. 11.,BOSTON, massscnussm-rs, ALSO REFERREDTO AS mp NATION cs ISL-AM,_ NOI!_ ,__
On March 18, 195%, a source stated that theNation of Islam NOI! had become active in Boston,Massachusetts, and knew that it had held meetings asearly as November, 1953. A
On Nay ll, 196%, a second source stated thatthe Temple of Islam in Boston, Massachusetts, is knownas Muhammad's Temple of Islam No. ll or Muhammad'sMosque No. ll. It is located at 35 Intervals Street,Dorchester Boston!, Massachusetts, and is the localbranch of Muhammad's Temple of Islam whose headquartersare in Chicago, Illinois.
as-~~_-_s_. also H, ' ..._- +- -_ _ _ __ AL_,_.:-_t_-_, , , ,_, .,, , , - ___�
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APPENDIX
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MUHAMMAD'S TEMPLE OP ISLAM NO. 13;
SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS,ALSO REFERRED TO AS THE ~
NATION or ISLAM N01!, 3 __ _ 1 §~@-'1!
On March 9, 1955, a source advised that the Nationof Islam N01! had, at that time, Just opened a Templein Rnr1n¢P1e1d_ Msssschusettse-- �r-�'w-- -"I --
On May ll, 196R, a second source advised that NOITemple No. 13 is located on the corner of Oak and TylerStreets, Springfield, Massachusetts. The membership refer toTemple No. 13 as either Muhammad's Temple of Islam No. 13or Muhammad's Mosque No. 13. This source stated thatTemple No. 13 is a part of the national organization which hasits headquarters in Chicago, Illinois.
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pus shown a photo run length! oruomum ._. _ V ,BU'I�LER. er eeing the full length. ho »=-~�~='~<e.~.
' d BUTLER as being present sthad previously been shown a m 0
e sa d looked familiar but he could n _ p_ _ � ositi_vel'_;.;_-; -identification from the mug shot, Lu A .-.l_*.";_ Ii
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' '�-tsstgtmmns�ié-a '1i1'ti-bdtltea uai�om t1m&';aa �mom' LITTLE began his speech. _.LITTLE gave. the greeting Qf
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TTIE ld th 1 to take it "started to stand. LI then to e peop e_ _ _eas and sit down. .Whi1e this was goigi on the__ indi92_ridua.;l,_,_",,-;;..,.
.. __ e t "Get your hand out otf ,5-;-IfEei , � pocket.� The "person beside HAYER stated, -"I'wasn't_ in your '1'}1»-f Jé '.* damn "pockets. -This was occurring a_.t_the same time as._jQj;q'1* - I.-I'I"1�LE was speakingqphfter standing up HAYER pushed l'1i§__l"'°'"<"__;1,'_�§? �
I� _ coat back and pulled an object from his left side, eithei".'-'_ ;I�""b from ket or from his belt Qhe object looked metallic!-'"-'HAYER then pointed t t he took_ zit toward ,LI'1"1�IE, :hen heard,-T11-:J:_t,
t -what s ded like "a gunshot and re _ _o_ e _p cor. �He. t_o1'd_�-:5-,@-__1_=~. 1' -to_ get down but s__he___ua_s sti1._1,sitting,_.__ He _1ate
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.4These persons and remarks regarding the ROI were on the tirst_part Qoi the show only. The information adds nothing more to shat has '_§Balready been reported regarding the H01 and pertinent parts can %mbe readily utilized in annual or semi-annual reports. It is �'"therefore not being put in letterhead memorandum form and is beingfurnished for the Bureau and interested otiices:
The following is the transcript:
EUP'8 SHDI - PEBRUAR! 27, 1965 ,
Good evening, ladies and gentlemeniand welcome to another session of
conversations unlimited on Kup�s,Show. Tonight, because the BlackMuslims ere holding their EetionslConvention in Chicago, we thoughtin keeping with our etiorts to Cbe on top ot the nets and topresent all sides oi the questionthat we would have varieus .
representatives for the BlackMuslims, against the Black Muslims,and perhaps one or two who areneutral, Let�! neet our guestsnow, First, this is AUBREY mumsof Boston, torner member of theIuslims, whose article, "The BlackIuslims Are A Fraud" appears inthe current issue of the SaturdayEvening Post. Hr. BARNETTE tlewhere from Boston and appears in the
studio today under police protection,Next is GORDON HALL, one of America'sleading authorities on the extremistsoi both the leit and the right. He'sa one-man organization." From the '
great State ot Missouri, this is ACongressman nxcmnn HJI.-LING, as ' "'
Democrat, who suggests methods tor",speeding up the legislative process?in our Congress in his nee book,� e"House Out oi Order", Next is
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Dr. C. ERIC LINCOLH, Social - , §Philosopher, currently at Howe .~University. He is the author oi,the definitive etudy called Th9_'Black Incline in America. Hienewest book in "Hy Face is Black".And thin is JOHN ALI, NationalSecretary oi the Bdack Muslin!and head or their school here. .I�: IRV KUPCINET of the "¬hica¢o_Sun-Times", your moderator, Ind�we'll Join our lively group rightaiter this message. _
Gentlemen, I'd like to get rightto the point. AUBREY here, whenwe have introduced already as -
a young nan from Boston, haswritten an article in the SaturdayEvening.Post in which he says . n 1the Black Iuelins are a traud.He appears here, as we have announcedunder police protection. 'Hesuttered e terrible beating in 7Boéton and won a court case as aresult of the heating. A number Aoi bones were fractured and other
injuries�, right , AUBREY?. r at
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Ihy do you think the Black Muslims -are a fraud?" �A .'
I�d nay the Elect iue1imi.ire i_£raud because they have deceived 'the pub116.u They have tricked ;.rtheir members and they are not Yt��-.carrying out any oi the program thatthey have proJected.. _
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Can you tell um what, more . �e
have claiaed to ie ._ e ' , _ , ' '-'
Yea. Iell, one of the reaeona thyI joined the Black Iualim novenentwas hecauee I thought it van an .organization that ltood for a lot.of ideals that I could uphold.And thia was the idea of moral
uplifting. I thought they had aprograa for inpreving the eerelclimate in.the Negro community,a program for reforming Juveniledelinquents and for preventingdope addiction and so forth.I_thought that they had a programof economic upliftment. Ithought they had an educationalprogram and after being im.themovement for some time, l finallyleft the movement in disgustbecause the Iuslims, while they r,publicly pronounced they hadthese programl, they bad neverput them into practice and it inmy conclusion not that they don?tintend to put them into praotice..
Row, after you announced that youwere leaving the Black Muslim!or the Mosque in Boeton, MosqueNumber 11, this is when yousuffered that beating which youattributed to your defection?
no. I had left the Mosque in1963, in November of 1963, andI didn't suffer this beating untilabout a year later. I thought-that I could forget about the ' [luslime, the Black Muslim Movement
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* a . , . $5. _ _Hand I had put then aside and had
returned to the outside world oi-.*
reality, had pue to work in abank as an auditor. I iinally �decided I would take advantageoi ny college training. I wentback, I left the organization andwent to work in the outside world.
And I thought I could forget aboutthe Black Muslims but I soon found
in August of 1964 that I couldn'tforget them because they didn'tiorget me."
aw-unn- .
JOHN, this is a sort of a directattack, a frontal attack I sight _say on the organization yourepresent as Rational Secretary.
KUP:
Iell, one oi the first thingsthat I'd like to say. lollwe've been well acquainted Ior34 years with diiterent peoplein America making attacks onit, iUHAiAD and the originalIslam. First I'd like to
bring this clear to you andwhich I'm quite sure you areQware oi - the principle ofreligion which is allowed orprotected by the Constitution.And a person has a right to-
§~ , " practice any religion they wish.» And so it is with us.' I mean
' this is, you might say, a sorto£.a hypocrisy oi this subjectoccurring on your show because
you don't rind this type oi
discussion comcerningAre1ig1oulactivity anywhere in mericaexcept tor relation to the I »Iuslims who follow the Honorable
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W ii ��ELIJAH IUlAIMAD,- A person han .gw.the prerogative to =orihip_ - _anything an their religion. ;,It they rant to say that thiscup is their religion pick! upcup!, that in between them andthe person who will go along withit. And it in no one�: prerogativeto say it in or in not a religion.Thie in guaranteed by the 'Constitution. And in thi: oaeeve had the original Ielam Ihi�hlhas been taught by the HonorableELIJAH IIUEAIIJIAD in this country .tor the past 34 yearn. And he ilthe nan of God and it Ie�re wrong 'then it�: between un and our Maker.
It is no one�: prerogative toolassiiy us or to say we areapproved oi by any_eooiety orby any other group of people.
And Ie're not Seeking it andwe don't ask for it.
KUP: That wasn't AUBREY�e point.
Iell, I'm saying that BARNETTBhere who alleged to have beenwith us; I mean, we canunderstand the article in the
Saturday Evening Po�t. we knowi the reputation ot the Saturday"
Evening Post an a very reckleae.magazine because they have ' "several euits.against then not �
for libel and.slander; In fact,even the_subJeota that he says onyour show are iubjecte to Y'"finspection by attorney because"we have an attorney'here who in .in for this purpoae. And th ASaturday Evening PéSt has 1 ��' ' ~
reputation for slander. In tact, -
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I gather you put your threat inthere very slyly, right? j
One o!_the biggest awards ever�made against a publication hasbeen against the Saturday EveningPoet, ehioh is also e negazinewhich is beset with mismanagementand loss oi advertising reviewand -
I an not
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going to defend or knockSaturday Evening Post -
All this is in connection with
understanding the eeurue that isbehind this nan doing this,because he is a paid man. Hewas paid for this article incollaboration with someone else
and we are very much acquaintedwith Quislinga and how they gettheir due and so naturally thehistory.o£ this must be taken
i iute account, tee, uheu you diecue:this article on your show because�you mentioned the Saturday EveningPoet, which right now, thismagazine is suffering the lone ctadvertising revenue and alsocirculation and a shakenp on their
board of management and stopkholderstight and everything else. And '"they are.deing everything they can
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the article etatee that he vrote 3the article in collaboration vith:eomeone elee. I mean thin in 9."; Lthe Saturday Evening Poet ie nota magazine of fact but ie amagazine of fiction. This ie thereputation of the magazine. Theyhave had more aerial, more document,more theater and playe written
ofrom their etorieg of fiction,like this, than any other publicationin the country. And Hr. BARHETTE,we might eay, euffere from afigment of imagination.
Fell I certainly have everything,every bit of evidence to documenteverything I've eaid in this -
Iell, if you have any evidenceof anything or fraud of_anything,then you present it to the court.
I have documents to back up everystatement that I have made. '
Any evidence that you have. e 'And when you call somebody afraud, I mean, first you are acollege student, and you citeyour reputation for ~
The public - -
Please, one at a time. LetJOHN finish. e, .
And you cite your reputation for .being an educated man and 9�;have evidence, evidence vhich' _should be presented in courta..' ~~~If you have evidence of anything Tof being a fraud, you should -present thie thing in a court U -and not going around by making'reckless accusation; as you have ~done and are still doing,
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I an submitting ny claims touacourt of public opinion.
Because you have none, Ihat doyou ca11 is a !raud?: Ihat doyou say is a fraud? Kane onethini.
Each program that has beenprojected is a fraud.
Kane one program. Kane one!
The economic prograI._
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Prosrm?
The economic program. The$3,000,000 Islamic Center.
Ihat about it?
It hasn't been.bui1t.
A11 right. Then what aboutit? What 15 I fraud about it?
It is a fraud because the moneywas co11ected�for one purpose,and the purpose the money wascollected ior, the money was -never used for that purpose._
How that is where I won't saythat you are a liar because~1'11 ruin this show, and I�!much too intelligent for thatbut 1'11 say as LINCOLN toldone oi his'genera1n that yoube reckless with the truth. � '
But I'll say this, the economicThe three programs that ea:announced by Hr. HUHAHAB,p _Do you know what some oi themoney was raised for and an
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AUBREY: wait a minute. Please, please; __;
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You laid $3,000,000.
The $3,000,000'progran.
There was never no $3,000,000prograa._ Iirat you have yourtact: nixed. There waa a$20,000,000 program which _we announced.
: The Islamic Center prograa.
Ia a $20,000,000 program. .And your reputation for keepingup to date on th1nga_waa neververy accurate anyway but whenyou mention about a $3,000,000program iirat you mention aomethingwhich does not exist. There never
- waa a $3,000,000 program.
: 1.comp1ete1y agree with that -
There was a $20,000,000 programwhich was announced by Hr. IUHAMMADand tunda -. _ _ v
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Let ne-clear up one'p6£nt]'JOH!, Aon the program. 'In your article r"you say that this was a $20,000,000educational program} '$3,000,000waa raised and never,apent¢»;%,,3H. 5
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tact, Ir. BABHETTI,' Ie have a_warrant out tor hi: now in Bolton.
ior nieappropriatiou oi funds,0
Iere you'£ani1iar with that,
AUBREY?
No, air. Thin ie a quite new andreckleae charge - _
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It ie not reckleae. ; _
- didn't even ewear a warrantont, ' ' ' ~
Listen, he was in the organizationand this i|'one-of the_reaeonswhy he detected from the groupbecause nieueing tunde and thingl.- ~ 0 - 1
I leit the organization �onetine Q
This is one thing he had neveretateq. I mean, when you writeyour article why you left, you-ehould - ' '
It took them lone time to figure Ihad misappropriated some £nnda,.rwhen I left the organization in;1963- 'Thii ie 1965.- And you ,Just getting your warrant out?Bounds like a trumped-up chargeto ne.n -
Another trumped-up article, Imean, are you'juet writing thilarticle now? You haven't listed 92one thing as a fraud, Ihat ina fraud?w =e
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GORDON:
e
JOHN:
1
The entire program in a trau�,. � ,
low what in a,traud? Ihat program?�
: Ieil, take the program etep by step;1'11 take it atop by etep. A
: Ie11, take a look -
It'e on the back page of "Muhammad
_ Speaks" newspaper.
Bight. Ie're for the war of tree
Bight. � '
I'd_1ike to recite once againthat I eieh one at a time would
apeak. GORDON, you wanted_toget a word in edgewiae. ¢
I want to make the point that -lince this gentleman makes a
, big inane oi the courts and yourattorney being here, which in
o an old gambit I night add,�talking bueineil of gettinginto a aquabble like thin,and they iant you to know"
~ somebody�: liltening and thereioryou're not Iuppoled to lay T7"t"anything; You know 1! the courtsand the attorneys and all therent are involved, why don't»you take thin gentleman to'�"""�court�I1nce the Saturday EveningPoet -
,1 .....�.92 ./-a.-e
I mean, one --
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GOBDOH: Let ne finish. It he is' allegedly so reckless, take
hin to court and prove that his=charge that you people are a Airaud, which I would completelyendoree having'studied the.Iuslims nyself. Ihy don't youtake hi: to court and have thecourts decide in the UnitedStates whether what he said is
�true or false."-You sake a bigissue or all this business oi.attorneys and all of that -._
' a
JGEH: !elli=lihe l gaid again, one -
And when thin warrant} by theII.� I '
GORDON:
One thing not concerning you atall is our religion and youhave no right to tell no _ 'how I should act in my religion,I nean, whatever your religion,
JOHN:
5
that ie your business. I mean thisis the thing that is going onwhere the religion of blackpeople has been decided bywhite people and they tel1"then hoi they should conducttheir affairs. This is what
--"re have, what Ir. IUHAHHAD '_protests, And how we practiceour religion is ct no concern yto you. You practice yourswhatever say you Iilh, Thl.-i
. tact that Islam is in this 'country is something which 10'widely known." They have it in
- the laaonic�SocietyZ' They'Tpractice it; �And roe you�to.g onay'that aur"r¢11g1ou is�i "��"_fraud, 'I �can'expect this rrui"you because Ir. MUHAMMAD teachesthe history oi the white people
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in thie country and they areoppoeed;to the religion oiIII!-I and the only eucceae tintIelan hae been in the last 34 3?
yeare eince the time he_haa beenpreaching this religion.F It lnean, ten yeare ago, you couldn'tiind the mention of Illll in I �leven in the printing, .Hil
parent corporation, the fieldmagazine; which publiahee theEncyclopedia Brittanica, or oneoi the reference bookl -
The World Book.KUP:
They call it Iohammedien. Onlysince Hr. MUHAMMAD hae been
teaching has there been anyrespectability given to thinreligion and much oi it. Andconcerning your trying. There arein tact. You don't even believe in
your own Constitution when you tellne hoe to practice my religion.5_I
' =~,=-#1 *hi" 1! 99* _v9~1=_-vr=="°s!*1'~.-__'
JOHN:
GORDON: Thie man has eo many charges, We'llbe all day catching up with hii.' Let�!go back to the beginning premise. Ithought 9. �
JOHN: _ Let'e go back to the principle of
religion; _ _
KUP: the iloor, please, _d- . I
AUBREY: Beginning with the rriua." The religion!o the religion"o1 Ialan an p=a¢t1a¢a"uyp
the Hation[�the�ao¥called'Nation"o!'I*��Islam, is no eimiIarity�between orthodoxIelam and'what the Nation of Ielaa
practicee. ~- . A
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CG 100455685
JOHI:
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JOHIr
AUBREY!
JOHN:
-AUBREY:
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_IelI,'i£ you aunt underatandj Q Q
1: got auat.talk religion 1n'h.,.,%¢..oi the priuciplea oi Illll ia that youpray tire tinea a day and there are .certain atepe and procedurea that youauat go through.in order to pray, low,in all the yeara that I have been inthat tenple,_nenbera have been tryingto get the niniater to teach then howto go through theae "rakaa" or how to:perform the prayera. -They have not._been taught yet. Y A r i �
Iell, that ia aonething that I aay iaa lie, .I mean, hot we - again youmuat underatand,.-I can understandyour being ao innocent not knowingbecause you are being ured like IOmany of our.peop1e, being paedby'the white nan to tight oneoi their cauaea; Because one,o _how_I practice religion; ,I£'1 "want to Iorahip this cup and �worship it on�%hat table or ontop of the table, that ia up to 'lo, There ia no auch thing aa 92.0lfth0dOX� 3 _ . _ � r _ _ �' _-.j_*_f ..
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Iell, it that ia that you want *to do, that ia what you ahould -tell, that ia that you tell the x;-i�P�public. That ia what you want'Y�to do -_' _ �__ ' . _
1;� don't have to tell the publ�t.You tell the public.-;- r -r_
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you ahouldn�t tell the - ; *"-', .. .; _ . »_-,_- C �A �.1 Q I '�
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publie one thing and do another rd
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' One st e tine, please. y .
It is surprising how you silo!yourselt to be used like this.
How, the tertheet concern =.Let's go to the University o£- 'Isles. '
It is one - '
JOHN, let him finish,
Row, s university by all acceptedpreetieee, ene nr..LI!GOLH, yenstraighten me out, you straightenus out on this e .
Speak tor yourself. I asked forno tlnt reason like that for yournsgazine article. . _� _ . ,-u
Nov I university, in order to beclaeeiiied ee e university in�this country, you have to have� 's certain number'o£ undergraduateand gradunte echools.' Nov the ANation oi Is13I.hns.been advertisingior years in their brochures the .University oi_Is1an. ~
*11.?'1$h?- �?1'.1�$. .115 9?".-. . .
This is only n grammar school.
Br1===._ ii 2%---.*:'. ' fl ; _ - .I ',§"" . . '
It is only s'grhmnar ichool._. It's not n'univereity; �It � o
doesn't have iny.col1eges,' It _,- doesn't have hny college'studentsY
But ?et it�: advertised ee the�University 0! Isles. This is strend, . -- 1
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All right, let's go to that n0I. 1You say that is_i fraud. x_
That is a traud. _
Iell, this sill shoi you ho!little � I seen, to be s collegestudent, this is really surprising.This will show that you are stillon the indoctrination oi
the ihites. In fact, underIr. MUHAMMAD Ie are the only peoplewho rightly have the title to usethe_Iord University becauseALLAH is the God oi the_universeand Islam is universal.- And �
using names, any person nay useany nane they wish to go by as"long as they are not using tor,is hot sn illegal sass, And -Islas is universal --
It is a fraud, _ -
And so when so say university, 'the University of Islas has nere?;:been represented as g school, as aschool oi graduate studies. It" 'hes been alssys_been to1d.- -
Just h minute; by all accepted __ .standards_a nniversity_has to� '.--have - . _
Thht is by your; by white'msn§sstandards. By your standards.By tho_things that you go by.
F Q
Ihen no live in a - t '. _ .� V 4
F°.7P9; .. 'M..r.- .L. o._ o
country we usually use the '
English language.
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lb who have knowledge, vs hnvs,; i* -we know, that-vhen Is sly the ' 1University of Isles it is -reterring to the school and -
Let se get this straight non,JOHN - - -
Yes? h ' . . '
You say the University of Islamis e grsde'schoo1?v i _
It goes'1ros the kindergarten tothe 12th grade. Right. And ithas never been represented as -
. . Al~- - . . .
It has nothing to do Iith -
It is not a graduate eohool, "
Or s university.
The name of the school-is theUniversity of Islam, »
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Becouse Islam is univerenli 'It aseuages ?! even more than thisIor1d..__._ ___ V ?___ _
loll, you explain that by '_ f --"saying this is your decision toque1i£y_that nnne.W __ _ }__»
No,_ Ir. IUHAHHAD's decieion,T
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JGII
AUBREY:
JOHNS
AUBREY:
JOHNS
AUBREY:
JOHN!
'9�
Tb quality this; which is his -prerogative because universityinvolves sore than Just locale 0! osoae buildings or 20 things.These are things_o£ the whiteInnis - =
It has to have a couple or under-graduate schools present there.
standards where they have theAmerican Association oi Collegeswhere they say in order for auniversity to exist'and theyhave proof er it, say.a1l rightit_nust have 20 buildings, one""library with 500 books and such andsuch like that.� We're not seekingaccreditation from that group andwe're not representing ourselvesas belonging to that group. And theright oi this name to be on thisschool which gees iron hindergartento_the 12th grade shich enyene knee:and it you've been there and it youever was around, your eyes reallyare closed much more than what we
thought. , . 1 ,
l*re_been in quite a tee tewns.g'I
The'school hss.never been represented:a'=nything more than that. And iilr._hUHAlMhD desires e
It has been represented as theUniversity of ls1en.= . ~
.A._-.. �.
This is one oi the reasone'why he hasthis.$20,000;000 program is to build,is to build schools or our own along
our people." And ts here, and he�: beenstating this that he'wants to build,It is in his program, He wants'tobuild; he wants to build houses.
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AIBRIY:
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AUBREY:
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AUBREY!
JOHN!
AUBREY:
JOB:
AUBREY:
JOHN: LA
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AUBREY!
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that in part or e program. That fin e program.
And we have children, we have over -500 children. Ie have children nowwho�nre going to echool and we don'thave delinquency existing anongour children and it we had the -
tacilitien we would have - .
This in another trend-
nore than Incline going there.J
This in another rraud.n That you .
don't have delinquency existing
nnong_hualin_children¢w l _"_ -. ¢.,. .-
Right. The only delinquent we. -hate in you and we're -~ =
I'n not -I � " _ _ gH_
glad that you're not with ne.
1'; not going to belittle; o "1 "1': not going to belittle anythingthat you -
You belittle youreel! by heing.inPilbli-On _ _I . e » " ' 3' ' '
Let him finish, now. One at nti-Q0 -
It you do something 8-; l give'youcredit tor it; "But when you any ~you don't hnye'any Juvenile' " '1delinquency nnong.Husl1n children?you're deceiving the people or i..� ,you're deceiving youreelt, BecauneJuvenile delinquency definitely t"' 'does exist among the Muslin children.
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vb ob
Hans ono. Nana ono.
Several cnsol-1
Rune one! '
In Boston,
Rani one!
In Boston -
Nana one! . _ -
Iqll, lot his nnno 1:, Joan;' .
In_Boston','�1oro is n case - U
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n1; Iuslin parents nnd takonftohis Christian parents in ordorto stsy_out 01 reform school: '
Nana one!
In Boston, Iassachusstts, that is�P9 9959!... .. .- ..H
Nino.theipoop1o; 1?noan yon'ar0"citing something that it is a hypo
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It is not h hypothetica1,csso."I=know the case. . _ '' . V I
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JOHN:
AUBREY!
JOHI1.
KUP8 '
COIIRRCIAL
EU;
GORDQH:
JOHN:
GORDON:
1
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Hose and noses.I knew the case very well. And in Otact - c '
Hale the names. You say somethingwhich is irrelevant, inature and notpertaining to the issue. You are '
s sen which does not deal with facts.
Let's pause here n moment tor-smessage and we'll be right back.
GORDON, you want to get n word inedgewise between these twocombatants.� .
1'11 try to. It we accept the �basic premise tron this side oi thetable that n group establishesitself as I religion in this countryand onceihaving established itself,that no criticism should cone, "O
therefore, becnuse the person hashis own religion and that is hisbusiness and not yours or mine.'This would mean then thnt let us
say, then that we cnn have s 'Christian group anywhere in the � '
United States�set itselt up with theword "Christian"; which is done allthe tine; the country is loadedwith hate groups with the word"Christiin�_in the title, -
Starts to speak! _ _ _ _h
Let ne'£inish.' And then they beganto assault Roman Catholics and"" .
Jews end anybody that they happenf %to dislike;'but because they are a fChristian religion, soécalled; andinoorporated'nnder that title; noone is allowed to say anything
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GORDON:
JOHNS
about the viciousness of the ettscxn
on other groups because they are Ireligion. This is e totally islsepremise and the Muslims, like ' "
everyhedy elee in the United Stetee,ere subjected to press criticisms,television criticisms, analysis .and all the rest. There isncthingsacred about ELHJAH MUMAMAD althoughapparently you thin! I0. .
Iell, I'd like to answer you onthat. I mean, I can appreciatenng understand yur type on thisbecause this is written what would
be done. Because Mr. MUHAMMADis s nan oi God, end we d@h�t' �object to criticism; In tact, toexpect it because it is writtenthat the last day, the last day" "would have attacks from unbelievers
and hypocrites and'devi1s. <nne'eo,Ie can expect this; 'Ie understandthis coming iron yen. 'Becsuse youere opposed to Islam from the verybeginning. It is not your natureto accept it; And we can under+ 'stand your criticizing it and goingagainst it and also opposing it andgetting others to do this because �
it is written, that you'll be doingthis." _~ " _ Ȣ
Ybu�ieren't listening to that I
use saying beiore. .i ,�._ H.q__,,. i__._. _"
Because, and iron your ettack on��"Mr;'MUHAMMAD's position.' Fred yourattack on Mr;'MUHAMMAD, this showsthe; this'shows the shallwwness�.bi your mente1ityL' I'nean,�you'"'_attach the'men because you are on'this program; -.
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JOHN:
GORDON
JOHN:
GORDON
JQEE;
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I sisply arid there in nothing gsacred about hin. �as that becomean attack?
I mean he is sacred. I mean, wesay that he is a nan from God,and not something incorporated .or going into the laws or the -state on the religion 1aIs.- Imean something that he has amessage direetly froi God.- Andit you object to his methods -
A final point, i
You have the +'
A iinal point - �- 1-.�. -. 1
opportunity tooorro! hooooso hewill be at the Coliaeui '-f -
speaking there tomorroI'atT'�'*2:00 PI and never yet has.anywhite person come up and ' 3 ; 1
denounced.the ieaohing'that'he�i�teaching for the past 34 years assbeing something talse or fraud: -as they have paid'peop1e amohg"us to'do; This has'never, there -has never been one vhite ean to - �
denounce his} '1 mean5'the nan sis teaching a religion.� He ia~.;=teaching our peop1e_to c1ean"themselves ettg he is teachingthen not to he addicts;--He 1sT���
teaching then to he ee1£~su££icientand to do things for themselves.Ihy Should you obJect�to this?"�Ihy should you denounce this nanT.ras not being sacred? 'Ihat'hae he.done to you? How does this * O7�interfere with you? 92Teach1ng ourpeople the prinoiploo o! Isle; �u
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GORDON: Can'Io gr Back'to vr:+ I said?
JON: Ho.� Wait a ninuéo, -
GORDON: Ybu'ro baking a long-winded, a"Can Io go back to that I said,
JOHN: Nb." You're trying to disguisuyouraelt and covpr up [email protected] for thii nan which IOall know about., � .
GORDON: I mean -
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CES:pma
JOHN: Because you have
You said a few minutes agothat you never heard about me.
GORDON: �
JOHN: Ihy are you concerned abouthim?
You said a re! minutes ago younever heard about me. So how doyou know about all the thingsI've said? -
GQBDQE;
JOHN: Ihy are you concerned abouthim? Ihy do you come on thisprogram? To discuss MUHAMMAD?I told you -
KUP: Wait one second. This is gettingno place, JOHN. Let me turn toDr. LINCOLN. Let me turn to
Dr. LINCOLN, on one side.Dr. LINCOLN, you've made adefinitive study of this group.1'd like to get your opinion?of the Black Muslim movement.There is no doubt there is � '
some good points to the organization.
Iell, as you know, I made thestudy as a social philosophernot as a partisan, not as an 'opponent of Islam and not as a"salesman for Islam. what I did.beginning in 1956, was to tri tostudy the movement with all ofthe toois that a socioiogist
_ 27 5
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LINCOLN: normally uses and to get as much *�
insight into the movement as Icould get. I feel that I knowa little bit about Islam as it is
taught by I. ELIJAH MUHAMMAD.I do not claim to know all. After
all, I was a person outside themovement and not inside and
there were certainly some thingsthat perhaps I possibly do notknow. But nevertheless I feel
that I know something about it
and certainly I know somethingabout it from the point of viewof a sociologist.
KUP: Now, you made a statement that thereis about 100 thousand members
which AUBREY has differed with
you on. He claims the membershipis much much smaller. About
7,000 I think, according toyour article. Is that right,AUBREY?
AUBREY; Yes. The present membershipis at around 7,000, at the peak.
JOHN: Well, I'd like to comment on thatbecause, one -
KUP: One second.
LINCOLN: I'd like to speak to the question.At the time I began'research onthe movement in 1956, this was"'several years ago and my estimate ;of 100,000 members was made around '1960 when the movement seemed to
have gained membership and seemed
-28.-
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LINCOLNi
KUP:
LINCOLN:
JQHH;
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to have been at a pinnacle.I have never offered this numberas a hard and fast number for
the membership.
Iould you make a guess aboutits membership today? .
This was the number at which
I arrived at through my, throughmy own calculations, my visitsto many, many temples, toquestionnaires that I sent out,to_talking with other peopleand so on. And this also wasnot limited to what you might callcard-carrying Muslims. One thingabout the Muslim movement is thatthere are many people who apparentlyfollow the teachings of ELIJAH -MUHAMMAD who are not formally assoc-iated with the movement. Now whetherthe membership of the movement isdown to 7,000 now as Mr. BARNETTEclaims, or whether it is up to200,000 now as Mr. MUHAMMAD claims,I frankly don't know.
Iell, I'd like to make one point.Ir. MUHAMMAD is not claiming any '
membership of any figure. I mean,well, first of all you must under-stand the nature of Mr. MUHAMMAD'smission. I mean, his Job isdelivery of'a message to the Aso-called American Negro and theprinciple of Islam is based an -
principles of practice or beliefs,five principles. One is belief
- 29 - '
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in the law oi the apostles and 'the books they wrote, prayer,charity, tasting, and pilgrimageswhen they are financially andphysically able. And anyone,it they are practicing noprinciples, can be a Muslim ormay not be a Muslim. It is upto the individual and if a personis practicing a principle that iswhat makes them a luslim. and
they can be practicing a principleand not necessary for a person to
attend our mosque, too, in order-to be a member. They can readHr. MUHAMMAD's lite in the paper.Anywhere they get it. They canget it from another person. Andthat is up to the individual,because we are not claiming membership
of any nature.
JOHN:
KUP: Starting to speak! "
I was going to say this, Mr. KUP.�r. MUHAMMAD is teaching onnationwide radio across the
country every Sunday. We have ourpaper which is one of the, is thewidest circulated news medium
among the so-called American Negrothat is getting his message out.And any one oi the people all �across the country hearing may atene time or may at anether time ""�'be practicing the religion of Islam.And this is what makes a person_a Muslim and not cards.� We don't
carry any cards around or anythingof that nature.
- 30 -
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AUBREY:
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Ihat is the purpose of the letterthat is sent out, JOHN?
LINCOLN: lay I speak?
AUBREY: Each prospective person who attendsa temple meeting, he receives aletter. And he fills it out and eithersays he has attended two or threemeetings and he believes in the
teaching and then he signs his nameand he gets an answer back.
JOHN: Iell, that explains
Thst is the ssne ssIhat is the purpose
AUBREY:
JOHN: It explains one who
itself.
his enrollment,
oi it?_
has attended thé'
meeting. But we have people who readthe "Muhammad Speaks" newspaper,which is out every Friday. Iiththe newspaper we have people ' � ~
listening to Hr; HUHAMMAD's broad-casts which are, which we have onone of the most powerful transmittersin the country, on XERF which 'broadcasts not only in the UnitedStates but all the way up -
AUBREY: But certainly you
JOHN:
Am@r#9#:and.Ptb¢!
AUBREY: But certainli you
don't have - ,
to the Dominion of Canada, South
P1%°P§-H ."._ H. � -
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s letter to, certainlY�you wouldn'thave a letter to�claim a person,who has been to a �
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JOHN: _
AUBREY:
LINCOLN:
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teaching or not. I mean; it isobvious it you see him there atthe teaching, he's been there atthe meeting. Ihy give him aletter?
Hr. IUHAHMAD, I mean, Ir. HUHAMHADand his ministers. They study.After a person hears, they don'thau� +hn_= Likn wnn. vnn�rnIT U0-l92I"_ I �l��llil J11!� Jr" 4-w
not.responsib1e for yourself anymoreA11 his Job is the clear deliveranceof his message to our people andnot necessary for them to attend .our meetings or attend in mosquesor attend meetings of that naturein order to follow. They're toldto either accept it or reject.
I want to return, it I may, to thequestion of membership. Because 1I think that it is important inso-far as Hr. BARNETTE has found one""
figure and I have suggested another.I interviewed Hr. MUHAMMAD lessthan three hours ago'and he said -to me at that time that his member-
ship was certainly in excess of200,000. He did not nail downthe figure.
What did he base that on, Dr.
LINCOLN?
his basis for it but he said
that He also said as far as _people who were following him who
Offieh11y,'I did not ask'him '
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were not, I hope you don't findthe word offensive, by card-
1 carrying Muslims -
I was going - -
I don't intend to take offense.
?I__ ___J. _-¢__I__.._J.____lJ__ __-..-1�! not understanding yuu,
DOC I101� - - .-
LINCOLN: All right then. Well, he said_.
KU
GORDON:
JOHN:
LINCOLN:
KU
that insofar as followers were
concerned he perhaps had wellover a million. He said perhapsand he didn't know. He did not
attempt to be definite at thatyuan I, a
P: Did he explain why the attendanceat the Coliseum is so small then,if he has such a large membership?
--and much less attendance today.
Iell, I'll say this -
May I continue my statement;'please? He also said further _that in the last year, this is'a statement since the defectionof MALCOLM X, it is his claim "
that the membership has doubled}There is one other point I wouldlike to make for clarificationabout attemntinz to take sides""'*' _ 1|!
h°"°.' . . ..
P: Iel1,_1et me ask you bef0fé"'you leave that field, do you,
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KUP:
LINCOLN:
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as a sociologist, do you accent Qthis as face value or do you have -
some system of checking thisfigure? g
I have no way, no accurate wayof course of checking the membershipof Islam. I don't believe anybodyhas. For an organization of thistype, it is impossible, so far asI know even for anyone who is amember of the organization to saywith accuracy what the membershipis.
And you're saying his figuremay be as wrong as the 2 millionor the 1 million or the 100 '
thousand. Anyone may be erong.
I figure, I would say ibis. ThatMr. BARNETTE arrives at his figureand certainly through a method that'he believes to be accurate and true.
And I try to do the same thing.But of all the people who havebeen studying the Muslims and therehave been neny. I do not knowany 2 people who agree on number.I don't think that they can.
Un huh. '
Let's take ALEX HALE? pb.},LOUIE LOMAX, and since I" fhave been studying the MuslimsI have received hundreds of"" A
letters from graduate"students .a11'over the country and front
police officials who have'been�studying officials who have been
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LINCOLN:
KUP:
Lrubonn:
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y lgstudying the movement and I Ehave never seen two figures
that were identical. Also,I will be frank with you. 'I simply don't know.
Yes, that's understandable.
II-II- =15y
One, one other thing. Just'as a matter of academics.
The question of the word,the use of the word university.I may be able to clear up some-thing along this line.- Backin the l860's and 70's, whenmost Hegro celleges eereestablished in this country,
they almost invariably calledthemselves universities. I
think that this was probablyto show their aspiration tobecome universities and probablyto elevate at least within-theirown minds what they themselvessere doing.� lo give you aconcrete example. I teach at'Clark College in Atlanta, whichwas established in 1869-as
Clark University, when it wasreally Just a normal scheol atthat time. They didn't dropthe name university until l940.I can give you another example.Glatlin Qellege in south - ~Carolina, which is a schoolmuch smaller than mine, callsitself Clatlin University.'
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LINCOLN:
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KUP:
JOB:
KUP:
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this is perhspe how the use of 1""-the name came to be.
!hile ee're talking aboutmembership, let me.get to anotherpoint which I think is very
serious. JOHN, I'd like to getyour opinion. Because I thinkAUBREY touched on a very importantthing here. He says in theSaturday Evening Post articlethat he came to realize that the
one thing the !usli!s osnnot livewith is success. The Iuslims
want no part of successiulpeople. For this reason Iuslims donot court prominent Hegroes.CASSIU8 CLAY is one exception, ofcourse. But one thing that hasamazed many people is the lack oiany Negro intellectual, any Negrooi nny prominence to support thismovement. " .
By explaining intellectual -
Can you explain that?
I mean, intellectual means �dealing with a person who has_knoyledge. It can mean someonewho is, when you say intellectualwhat do you mean, intellectual?Do you mean someone havingdegrees, going to college andwho have a string of degrees?
4. Let's not get into a battle oi-. semantics. �
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J°�N= O I want to know what you lean -Lwhen you say university. U
KUP= 1 didn't say that. I _saidintellectual.
JOHN: Because we have, because wealready had difference of wordshere on university.
There are many Negro intellectuals.Dr. LINCOLN is recognized as one.
' RALPH BUNCHB, -
KUP: '
JOHN: 'Ie1l, I'll tell youi
KUP: There are thousands of Negro -
JOHN: Nell, 1'11 tell you. A11 theMuslims who follow Mr. MUHAMMAD
we call them intellectuals.
_. -1- �- ..__ ;_I.___!.__ __L J..l._.__..92_II.KUP: I611, YOU KHOI tney lie not, tnuug .
To classify the American Negro, -
JOHN: I mean, according to whose standards- are you going by? By your standards?' The white man's standards? Or are
you going by -
KUP: No. I'm going by the acceptedstandards. _
JOHN: Are you going by the standsrds of theworld? Or what people have -
KUP: I'm going by accepted standards, '-JOHN. _Apparently - 1__� _M
JOHN: ,_- Are you going by the aeceptéa��**""'- astandards Where people are concerned
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JOHN:
KUP:
JOHN:
KUP:
JOHN:
KUP:=
JOHN:
KUP:
JOHN:
. l ~
about the knowledge of themselves? §�I'd say that we're all intellectual!Because it takes a very intelligent?nan to recognize when he has beenlost and cut of! from his own
people and realize he must now dosomething for himself. And Ir.MUHAMMAD -
Name one intellectual, the statusof Dr. LINCOLN -
1'11 name one -
ir. RALPF B�i��i, or anybody else.
I'll name one greater, Hr. IUHAMAD,because he himself, the very factthat he had this discussion on yourshow shows he was intellectual.
If he wasn't, you would not be Ydiscussing him. Here's a man who -
F0, we discuss people of all walks -
I mean it he were - _
of life. That's no category.
I mean, by the very fact that he isintellectual is the fact of yourconversation here. Because why "would you be concerned about a'nanwho went less than a normal gradeschool education and you ha�el l"�'doctors here, you have doctors here,you have Congressmen here and "you have college graduates.� Ihy'��are�you college graduates concernedabout this little man who is aa�"
uneducated man, according to your
standards?
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KUP:
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KUP:
Joan:
KUP:
JOHN:
....
Iell, do you mean that it we're .discussing the Klu Klux Klan, -
Iait a minute -
on the same level that you wouldsay these were intellectuals,because we're discussing them?
NO, _ 92
Is that your argument?
No, I'm saying this. It is even moreto his credit that he can take peoplewho were formerly dropouts out 01*school - inspire them to do thingsfor themselves.
Hell, let me go back to the originalquestion, JOHN. _
It we felt like going to school,we have, we don't make claims. We'renot braggarts or going around braggingand saying who we have in our midst.Because in Islam we accept everyone;� 'whether they be uneducated or educated,whether they be professional or� " "
unprofessional. I mean, we have manyin our group. I don't mean we don'tgo around telling_you that this mandoes good. Like they'do in the _"'"American society where they have thesestatus symbols and things and we, _who belong to a certain category" "that you had $10,000 and you have a -ranch home and all these'dif£er¬nt"'things. Because we're not concefned'with those status symbolsr Or yougo to Brown University, -
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; KUP: Iell, you made your point; will you 1hold 11;?
;JOHN: Because I've gone to school myself.Ie have a -
Let me turn to a sociologist. Letme turn to a sociologist. Onesecond, JOHN. This will be aninteresting point for a sociologist.Can you explain, Dr. LINCOLN, why
u KUP:
on my terms, no Negro intellectual or noNegro of any stature has accepted orsupported ELIJAH MUHAMMAD, the _Honorable ELIJAH MUHAMMAD?
LINCOLN; Iell, essentially this is a massmovement. And_as a mass movement,it will have an appeal to acertain class oi people which willnot normally -_
¢KUP: Ihat kind or people would you say _are included in-this class? _ =
LINCOLN: I would say that it would appeal _primarily to the people who arethe most disprivileged, the "
people who are the farthest downand the people who have not been,for reasons or various kinds or '
profession, to make their waysuccessfully in today's worldin which they live. And these H is
are likely, though not exclusively,they are likely to he the peoplethat include iewer�oi'what_we'""would call intellectuals'and othergroups, However, there are some �L e
eepeople in the Black Muslim movement
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LINCOLN: who are well-educated and I can= think of at least one who night jg '
be called an intellectual. This
is LONNIE CROSS, who has I doctoratein mathematics iron the University'oi Michigan, I believe, and whowas chairman of the department ofmathematics or at least taughtmathematics at Atlanta University.I believe he is at your iashington _Center. � _
JOHN: In tact, we have many intellectuals.' Dr. CROSS is one oi your associates.
But we have-many more who go tocollege and schools -
LINCOLN: This I don't doubt but I Justwant to point -
Is graduate then ourselves. Ie _+have some going to Harvard. Iehave some going to Brown.a Is
have some going to Loyola, right _here, the University of Chicago.We have some going to, going allover to schoo1s.. H
JOHN:
1 - _ ~92 .
starting to speak! ; In the wholetime I was in your organization, 7
AUBREY:
Let me finish 7%; 'JOHNt
xurk Go ahead, Joan. __ gv __;_�:
JOHN: I want.to talk}? Let me finish.Que nore thing you understand.� 'too, is what you m1gnt*¢aI1'tae.inte1lectua1"classes�going on. __'
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JOHN: '
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KUP§
VOICE:
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tinds that the intellectual class
are generally the privileged class 'going with the present society.And Ir. MUHAMMAD is teaching areligious movement which is dedicatedto change in the last day. Iherea divine God with the, or the Godwill be behind them. And you havea similar parallel, a precedent inthe history of Hoses. Because Hosestoo, history is compared to Ir.MUHAMMAD. They were both uneducatedpeople and they had what you call __the uneducated with them. I mean
the people that were following Moseswere uneducated and the intellects
opposed him like they oppose �r.MUHAMMAD. And they objected to himbecause they went along with the
Pharoah. Because the benetits andthe stature they received were grantedby the Pharoah. And this is the onlyway they could maintain these things bycontinuing to go along with Pharoah.
Your history-is a 11 - wrong,
JOHN, but we have to, pardon me; JOHN;we have to interrupt for a message.We'll be right back. _
A short time ago, gentlemen and audiencewe had the late MAIJCOLII X on the show
and we'd like to shes you a clip ire: 'our previous broadcast or January 30th,a £ewieeks'befdre he was assassinated;to show you what he said on this show,after which we'll come back to hear
from CASSlUS_CLhYy_ u V - 1 -
MUéiHMAD is a faker and -- 42 -
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IALCOLIl
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It ELIJAH IUHAIIAD really believed isthe sane god that I believed in; I� *�-believed in ELIJAH IUHAHHAD strongerthan he believed in hinseli. Ibelieved in his God more than he didand I was not aware of this until Iround that he was confronted with a
crisis in his own personal moral lifeand he did not stand up as a nan!Anybody can make a moral mistake butwhen they have to lie about it andwill be willing to seethat murderis committed to cover up their mistakenot only are they not divine, they'renot even a man, If a man sits as a
Judge and a woman is brought in frontoi him and charged with adultery andthe Judge himself is the one with whenshe committed adultery but the Judgestands up and berates the woman,letting no, in order to make no oneeven suspect that he is the real icriminal who was involved with thewoman and humiliates her and then
sends her into isolation, completelydestroys her reputation, with no 'kind of protection for her, or herwhatsoever. And she takes it, sheloves him so much and believes so '
strongly in his sense of justiceso much she allows herself to be
projected almost as'a prostitute"�'and that man permits this, then thatis not a man.� To have gotten weakfor a woman is one thing; It is "��ihuman. and it is natural; Bht�aftefH'
getting weak and comp1ete1y'aestroy1ng"-her reputation,'to do nothing whatsoeverto protect her as a woman, then he ii"not a man. And to commit murder and tosee tolbwers line up to kill each otherand to mutilate each other, then this is
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Doesn't ELIJAH IUHAIIAD preach I"¢non�violence and the non-use of -
guns and weapons and so forth?
Ihen I was in the Black Muslin
movement we never carried weapons.Ie were taught against that. Andwe were never taught that. Ienever actually fought at any tine.Ie were_told that God was going tocone, you know, and do all thesethings. Ihen the Iuslin brotherswere beaten in Louisiana, we weren'allowed to tight back. Nothing wasdone to equalize the situation.ELIJAH told us that God would comeand do it. But to show you thatthere is lack oi consistency. Howhe orders his followers to go outand attack each other, to mutilateeach other. II the ability, thetalent, the skill, the know-how,the Black Muslim brothers havebeen trained into were used againstorganizations like the Klu Klux 'Klan or the Ihite Citizens Councilor the racist elements in this �'
country, then I could somewhat goalong with the present trend oi�their fighting each other, too-But when all of their'physical"'energy is expended fighting only,fighting each other then I say
something is-wrong.
Are you trying to tell us thatthere's heen an attack on yduf�life because oI'your withdrawalor dismissal from the Muslin.organization? ~
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