mengi v hermitage 2102 trial transcript

MENGI v HERMITAGE 7 NOVEMBER 2012 PROCEEDINGS DAY 2

TEL: (020) 7067 2900 EMAIL: [email protected] FAX: (020) 7831 6864MARTEN WALSH CHERER LTD 1ST FLOOR, 6-9 QUALITY COURT, CHANCERY LANE LONDON, WC2A 1HP

[1] (Pages 163 to 166)

1 IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE Claim No: HQ10D04585QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION

2 Royal Courts of Justice,

3 Strand, London WC2A 2LL4 Wednesday, 7th November 20125

Before:6

MR. JUSTICE BEAN7

----------8

BETWEEN:9

REGINALD MENGI10 Claimant11 -and-12 SARAH HERMITAGE

Defendant13

----------1415 (Transcript of the Stenograph/Shorthand Notes of

Marten Walsh Cherer Ltd., 1st Floor, Quality House,16 6-9 Quality Court, Chancery Lane, London WC2A 1HP.

Telephone No: 020 7067 2900.17 email - [email protected])18 ----------19 MR. RICHARD RAMPTON QC and MR. AIDAN EARDLEY (instructed

by Whitman Breed) appeared for the Claimant.20

MR. JAMES PRICE QC and MR. JONATHAN BARNES (instructed21 by Carter-Ruck) appeared for the Defendant.22 ----------23 P R O C E E D I N G S

EVIDENCE DAY 224 ----------25

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1

2 REGINALD MENGI, RECALLED

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PRICE (continued)

4 Q. Mr. Mengi, yesterday we looked at some of a series of stories

5 in your newspapers, all of which, I think you will agree, were

6 strongly supportive of your brother's position in that

7 dispute?

8 A. I do not agree.

9 Q. You do not agree? Well, you tell my Lord in what respect you

10 say that they were not supporting his position?

11 A. Because I was not part of those articles and I am afraid all

12 of them I could not assess them.

13 Q. I am sorry, I cannot hear you.

14 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Sorry, could you keep your voice up? It is

15 terribly important that I hear your evidence, although you are

16 politely looking at counsel. It is a big court, high

17 ceilings, so keep your voice up.

18 A. Yes, I am sorry, my Lord.

19 MR. PRICE: Sorry, Mr. Mengi, yes, you were just going to tell us?

20 A. Yes, my Lord, I have not investigated those articles to find

21 whether what was said was right or wrong because I said, my

22 Lord, I am not Benjamin Mengi and I could not assist the

23 correctness of the stories, whether they were biassed or not.

24 Q. That is not what I am asking, Mr. Mengi. All I am saying is

25 that simply looking at the stories, they relentlessly present

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2 your brother as the true legal patriotic investor and the

3 Middleton's as the criminals and wrong-doers. That is clearly

4 right, is it not?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Well, you tell my Lord in what respect it is wrong.

7 A. My Lord, I have said many times that I did not investigate it,

8 the contents of those articles and I cannot pass a judgment

9 until and unless I investigate those stories and hear both

10 sides of the dispute.

11 Q. Once again, you have not answered the question, but you have

12 had two opportunities to do so now, so I shall move on. In

13 none of those articles is Mr. Middleton's or Ms. Hermitage's

14 side of the story given at all?

15 A. My Lord, I am not the editor. I do not ----

16 Q. Is it true, what I put to you?

17 A. My Lord, I am not the editor; I cannot assess whether a story

18 has been covered from both sides.

19 Q. You can see from the story itself that it has not been, can

20 you not?

21 A. I just do not look at a story and judge. I would like to

22 investigate and find out the background of the story, but as I

23 said, as I am not responsible for content, I do not have any

24 reason to investigate those reports.

25 Q. On one or two occasions it is said that an attempt was made to

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2 contact Mr. Middleton without success, rather surprisingly

3 without success, but he says that no attempt was ever made to

4 contact him at all?

5 A. My Lord, I am not responsible for those articles.

6 Q. Well, if that is true, are you in any way shocked by the

7 conduct of your newspapers?

8 A. My Lord, I cannot yes or no because I have not investigated

9 those reports.

10 Q. You see, the conclusion that those articles lead a sensible

11 observer to is that they are likely to have been planted by

12 your brother?

13 A. I do not know, my Lord.

14 Q. Mr. Kimambo, the reporter up in Moshi, was in your brother's

15 pocket for one reason or another and doing his bidding?

16 A. I do not know, my Lord.

17 Q. Did you not suspect that that might be the case?

18 A. I had no cause to suspect because I had not investigated those

19 articles.

20 Q. Supposing it had occurred to you that that was what was

21 happening, would you have intervened with your newspapers at

22 all?

23 A. I will never, never, never intervene.

24 Q. Not even if you thought that your brother was planting stories

25 in your newspapers?



[2] (Pages 167 to 170)

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2 A. I say I do not intervene in articles in papers.

3 Q. You said in evidence to my Lord yesterday that you first

4 learnt that Mr. Nguma was acting for Benjamin in the dispute

5 with the Middleton's when you read the witness statements. Is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes, my Lord.

8 Q. Can I ask you to take file 5.2, please? That is file 2, you

9 want file 5.2, if you would. There are two files and that is

10 probably it. If you go to tab D, page 316, you should have

11 there a letter to the High Commissioner, Mr. Parham?

12 A. 316?

13 Q. 316.

14 A. Thank you.

15 Q. Do you have page 316?

16 A. 316.

17 Q. Is that a letter to Mr. Parham, the High Commissioner?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Just to remind you of this, the date is January 2009. Do you

20 see?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Parham was the man who replaced Mr. Pocock as the

23 High Commissioner?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Nguma writes to him, it is headed "Silverdale Farm", and

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2 "As agreed at the meeting with Mr. Mengi...."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "I am enclosing notes on the Silverdale and Mbono Farms."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Have you seen this document?

7 A. I have seen this one, but I have not read the contents.

8 Q. You have never read the notes?

9 A. My Lord, I was asked to give his Excellency, the

10 High Commissioner, a briefing for Silverdale. As I do not

11 know anything about Silverdale, I passed a note to Mr. Nguma

12 to write to his Excellency on the Silverdale side, but I had

13 not, I did not see it before it went to the High Commissioner

14 and I must say, under oath, I have never read it.

15 Q. So who arranged this meeting? Did Mr. Parham ask to see you?

16 A. My Lord, I interact with the High Commissioner in Tanzania and

17 sometimes something can crop up either over a cup of tea or

18 coffee. I do not necessarily have formal meetings with them

19 because of my relations with the High Commissioners.

20 Q. Well, this was obviously a meeting at which Mr. Parham asked

21 you about the Silverdale Farm dispute?

22 A. It is a meeting, a meeting with the High Commissioner, my

23 Lord, and an issue arose, as it also arose with Pocock. I

24 would discuss the state of the country, he wants to know

25 certain things about the country, the economy of the country,

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2 how things are going in the country and sometimes something

3 like this crops up, but it was not a meeting specifically to

4 discuss Silverdale.

5 Q. Was Mr. Nguma at the meeting?

6 A. No, because the meeting had not been arranged for Silverdale.

7 I said it transpired that an issue was discussed.

8 Q. So you agreed that you would provide the High Commissioner

9 with a note on the Silverdale Farm dispute?

10 A. I said, "I will arrange for a note to be sent to you."

11 Otherwise, if I agreed to send the note myself, I would have

12 signed this letter or say, "Your Excellency, I sent the note I

13 promised." I just said, "I will arrange for somebody to send

14 you a note.

15 Q. Why did you think that someone in your office would be able to

16 provide a briefing for the High Commissioner on the

17 Silverdale Farm dispute?

18 A. High commissioner was a friend. He wanted to do, to know

19 about Silverdale. I did not know, so I said, "I will get

20 someone" and I thought Nguma was sufficiently intelligent to

21 investigate or to find out what it is all about and inform the

22 High Commissioner, but it is not me who was going to write to

23 the High Commissioner. I said, "I will get someone to look

24 into it." When I said to Nguma, if he said, "I cannot", I

25 will still try to find out whoever I thought could advise the

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2 High Commissioner.

3 Q. So you spoke to Mr. Nguma about this?

4 A. I simply told Mr. Nguma I had been with the High Commissioner.

5 He wanted to know more about it and said, "I do not know. I

6 have no details of Silverdale. Can you find a way of

7 preparing some notes and send these to him?" If I had

8 promised to look into it, then was me who would have signed

9 this letter, saying, "Your Excellency, as promised, I enclose

10 the notes" or whatever on Silverdale.

11 Q. So what did Mr. Nguma say?

12 A. Well, I am the boss, he has to find a way -- whether if he

13 knows or does not know -- to find a way ----

14 Q. Did he say whether he knew or he did not know?

15 A. To me, it is an order. I said, "I want the High Commissioner

16 to get a note on Silverdale." He had to find out.

17 Q. It is inconceivable that Mr. Nguma would leave you in

18 ignorance that he knew all about the Silverdale dispute,

19 Mr. Mengi.

20 A. When I have a request from anybody on an issue, I have the

21 responsibility to identify someone in the organisation who can

22 help me and I did find Nguma. If he said he was not able to,

23 he would have looked for another person.

24 Q. Did Mr. Nguma offer to show you the notes after he had

25 prepared them?



[3] (Pages 171 to 174)

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2 A. I never even asked. I would not have wanted to read those

3 notes.

4 Q. So he sent them to the High Commissioner without even asking

5 you whether this was all right?

6 A. I am under oath -- I say I did not read these notes.

7 Q. Were you offered the opportunity of reading them?

8 A. To me, he did the job I told him to do. He could not come to

9 me and say ----

10 Q. How did you know that?

11 A. Sorry?

12 Q. How did you know that he had done the job that you told him to

13 do?

14 A. After I told him, I assume he did the job and because I told

15 him, "The High Commissioner wants to know a bit about

16 Silverdale. Can you help?" The comment of the

17 High Commissioner ----

18 Q. His answer would have been, "Well, hang on, I am going have to

19 go to Moshi and do a big investigation into all this. Is that

20 what you want me to do?"

21 A. My Lord, I cannot have someone senior, ask him to do something

22 and then I discuss with him how to do it. I expected him to

23 use his brains and do whatever he could do to get a note to

24 the High Commissioner.

25 Q. Well, I suggest, Mr. Mengi, that it is inconceivable that

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2 Mr. Nguma would not have said to you, "Yes, of course. I know

3 all about this because I have been acting for your brother for

4 years."

5 A. He did not tell me. If he had told me that, I would certainly

6 have said no.

7 Q. Do you think he was deliberately concealing that from you?

8 A. I am not in his mind, but he did not tell me.

9 Q. What do you think?

10 A. As regards what?

11 Q. Whether he was deliberately concealing this very significant

12 fact from you about your own brother.

13 A. Yesterday, I said I was disappointed he did not tell me.

14 Q. You see, when you look at these notes, it is a full account,

15 statement, of Mr. Benjamin Mengi's position in the dispute, is

16 it not?

17 A. My Lord, I said I did not see these notes before they went to

18 the High Commissioner.

19 Q. Just look at page 322, the last page of the notes.

20 Paragraph 19, do you see that? "As a result of the worsening

21 relationship ... (reads to the words) .... to mediation."

22 Did you know that had happened?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You did not know that the Chief Justice had been involved?

25 A. No, my Lord.

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2 Q. "The High Court in Moshi .... (reads to the words) ... moved

3 out of the farms."

4 A. My Lord, I had no reason to know these things. I do not have

5 interest in Silverdale and yesterday I said my brother does

6 not allow me to tamper with his affairs.

7 Q. Well, you heard my suggestion, that it is inconceivable that

8 Mr. Nguma would not have told you?

9 A. You can say anything, but I am speaking the truth.

10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Price, before we move on from this, it has

11 various references, AN1 and so on to AN28.

12 MR. PRICE: Yes.

13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Do we know whether there were 28 enclosures or

14 28 pages?

15 MR. PRICE: There were 28. We have not included them in the file,

16 but it is at page 316. My Lord, for your note, we have

17 included two of the enclosures only. They are quite lengthy,

18 the enclosures.

19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I am not saying you should have, I just ----

20 MR. PRICE: If your Lordship would like to make a note on

21 page 322, AN27 is on page 308 of this bundle.

22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes.

23 MR. PRICE: AN28 is on page 329. Your Lordship can glance at

24 them; they are very short. 08, Mr. Nguma writes to his

25 opposite number, "I represent the case .... (reads to the

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2 words) ... received instructions." His opposite number writes

3 back to Mr. Nguma at the IPP office, your Lordship will note

4 at the top, 7th Floor, Haidery Plaza Building. "I write

5 to .... (reads to the words) ... involving the litigants."

6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, thank you.

7 MR. PRICE: Can I now ask you something about the advice that you

8 received from Mr. Aidan Eardley over the any possible clash

9 between the Tanzanian action against Mr. Manji and the action

10 here against Ms. Hermitage? Do you have a copy of that advice

11 in the witness box? If not, can one be provided?

12 A. Yes, my Lord.

13 MR PRICE: My Lord, I should say that it appears to us to be clear

14 on authority that the redacted sections have, in fact, had

15 privilege waived in respect of them, but that is a matter to

16 be dealt with later. I am not going to interrupt

17 cross-examination to make any submission to your Lordship

18 about that.

19 Do you have a copy of that advice with you?

20 A. Yes, my Lord.

21 MR. PRICE: Does your Lordship have it?


23 MR. PRICE: If we go to the conclusion, which is in paragraph

24 22 ----

25 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, may we just check that he has got the



[4] (Pages 175 to 178)

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2 redacted version? Can I just have a look at it?

3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, do you have a document in front of you?

4 A. Yes, my Lord.

5 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: For example, look at the last page. Mine has

6 paragraph 24, "redacted" and then a date. Can you just check

7 that yours does as well?

8 A. Yes, my Lord.

9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you.

10 MR. PRICE: Just look at paragraph 22. Mr. Eardley expresses his

11 view.

12 A. My Lord, can I read it?

13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, of course.

14 A. I have read it, my Lord.

15 MR. PRICE: Now, you will see that Mr. Eardley tells you that, in

16 his view, the existence of the Tanzanian proceedings does not

17 give rise to any argument which is likely to succeed that the

18 English claim should be stayed or struck out on jurisdictional

19 grounds or as an abuse of the process.

20 A. My Lord, on receiving this letter, I passed it on to my own

21 lawyer in Dar es Salaam.

22 Q. Well, just look at it. I am right, am I not, that he is

23 telling you that the Tanzanian proceedings do not represent a

24 threat the action here will be struck out?

25 A. My Lord, I give the letter to my lawyer in Dar es Salaam to

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2 advise me next step to take.

3 Q. You took no view on the matter yourself at all?

4 A. I took the view, after listening to my lawyer in Dar es

5 Salaam. I am not a lawyer.

6 Q. What he says, just reading on, "At worst, the existence of the

7 claim against Mr. Manji may have the effect of reducing the

8 quantum of damages in the English claim."

9 A. My Lord, I receive a letter from a lawyer and pass it on to

10 another lawyer to advise me.

11 Q. Well, let us just pursue this: he advises that before he

12 could even say that it would reduce the damages, he would need

13 four pieces of information?

14 A. My Lord, I received the letter and I passed the letter on to

15 my lawyer and whatever the lawyer thought about it, he drafted

16 a letter accordingly.

17 Q. Are you saying that your Tanzanian lawyer drafted a letter

18 accordingly?

19 A. I am saying I do not know legal terminology and terms and what

20 was in this letter in a legal way, so I have, I rely on my

21 lawyers.

22 Q. Did your Tanzanian lawyer advise you orally or in writing?

23 A. Orally.

24 Q. What did your Tanzanian lawyer advise you?

25 A. He told me the best way is to withdraw the Tanzanian case.

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2 Q. Why?

3 A. He says of the two cases, the most critical one, the important

4 one is the one in London and I should not take any chance.

5 Q. Who was the lawyer who gave you this advice?

6 A. Michael Ngolo.

7 Q. My Lord, I ask that we be provided with Mr. Ngolo's file note

8 of these matters, if there is one, as there should be. What

9 reason did your Tanzanian lawyer give? Has he seen this

10 advise?

11 A. The reason, my Lord, is contained in the letter which my

12 lawyer wrote to me.

13 Q. He wrote you a letter?

14 A. There is -- I said there is a letter.

15 Q. From your Tanzanian lawyer to you?

16 A. There is a letter from me to my Tanzanian lawyer instructing

17 him to withdraw the case.

18 Q. Quite so. Your Tanzanian lawyer would have seen ----

19 A. My Lord, may I correct? I have two lawyers; the one who was

20 dealing with the case and the other lawyer who was advising

21 me.

22 Q. Right. The one dealing with the case was Mr. Ngolo?

23 A. Yes, but the one advising me was not Ngolo.

24 Q. Who was it?

25 A. Abbas.

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2 Q. Spelt?

3 A. Sorry?

4 Q. How do you spell it?

5 A. A-B-B-A-S.

6 Q. We respectfully ask to be provided with Mr. Abbas' record of

7 these matters, please. Now, Mr. Mengi, you are an intelligent

8 man and you are not used to being led by the nose. You make

9 decisions yourself, do you not?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You do not? If a lawyer tells to you do something, you did

12 not say "why" you just do it?

13 A. I get convinced. I do not just make decisions without

14 discussion or without being convinced. I was convinced.

15 Q. Let us go through this: you were convinced that that was the

16 right thing to do?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Your English lawyer had advised you that the Tanzanian

19 proceedings presented no threat to the English proceedings.

20 A. There is always room for second opinion.

21 Q. Did your Tanzanian lawyer take a different view?

22 A. He advised me what I did.

23 Q. Did your Tanzanian lawyer take the view that the Tanzanian

24 proceedings represented a threat to the English proceedings?

25 A. He said yes.



[5] (Pages 179 to 182)

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2 Q. He could not possibly have given you advice on an English law

3 and English procedure matter, could he? He had that advice

4 from Mr. Eardley?

5 A. There is nothing wrong -- I am Tanzanian, so there is nothing

6 wrong to take advice from a Tanzanian lawyer also.

7 Q. However, a Tanzanian lawyer with any sense (and I am quite

8 sure that your Tanzanian lawyers are among the best), would be

9 extremely cautious before giving advice on English law and

10 procedure in the face of advice from an English counsel?

11 A. I think they took all the precaution required to give me that

12 advice. I do not dispute their ability.

13 Q. Why did he think that the Tanzanian proceedings represented a

14 threat to the English proceedings?

15 A. I did not go into why.

16 Q. You just had no idea?

17 A. He said in his opinion the case could affect the London case

18 in one way or another.

19 Q. What way?

20 A. He said it would affect.

21 Q. In what way?

22 A. He said it could affect. That is what he told me.

23 Q. In what way could it affect it?

24 A. I am not a lawyer.

25 Q. You do not know?

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2 A. I do not know the nitty gritty.

3 Q. Why could it affect it?

4 A. I said I do not know.


6 A. I do not know why it would have affected it, but I take advice

7 from my lawyer.

8 Q. Well, I suggest to you that the reason your Tanzanian lawyer

9 gave you any advice, if he did (and we shall see), is for two

10 reasons: one, as he knew that your case against Mr. Manji had

11 not a hope of standing up in court.

12 A. That is your opinion.

13 Q. Is it right?

14 A. What is not right?

15 Q. Is it right that the reason why you were, your Tanzanian

16 lawyer thought you should throw in the towel in the Tanzanian

17 action was that your case would not stand up in court?

18 A. My concern was to ensure that nothing goes wrong with the

19 London case and whatever I could do, I would make sure it is

20 done to ensure that my London case is not affected. The

21 Tanzanian case, as far as I was concerned, was much, much more

22 subsidiary to the London case.

23 Q. Why?

24 A. The London case, it is a serious case.

25 Q. Well, the case against Mr. Manji was nothing if not serious.

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2 It was a conspiracy to pay $US 50,000 to somebody for a smear

3 campaign against him.

4 A. My Lord, can I explain.

5 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, please.

6 A. My Lord, the situation, as I see, from what Mr. Price is

7 asking me, is a situation where I am now supposed to carry the

8 cross of Benjamin Mengi and I am not responsibile. I am

9 not ----

10 MR. PRICE: Would you stick to the question?

11 A. Can you ask the question again, please?

12 Q. What I am putting to you is that the reason that you abandoned

13 the case against Mr. Manji was because you were advised (and

14 you knew) that it would not stand up in court?

15 A. My Lord, it is not true.

16 Q. There was another reason and that is that Ms. Hermitage's

17 solicitors in this country were pressing for documents from

18 you relating to the Manji case on disclosure in the action

19 here?

20 A. That is not true, my Lord. The only one reason, I keep on

21 repeating, why I agreed to withdraw, why I advised my lawyers

22 to withdraw the case, is just one reason; there are not two

23 reasons.

24 Q. I suggest to you that that is nonsense because the advice you

25 had from your English counsel was that you had no reason to be

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2 concerned?

3 A. You can call it nonsense, but I am only here to speak the

4 truth.

5 Q. Your English counsel told you that it might, only might,

6 affect damages?

7 A. What do you understand with "might"? It means there is a

8 possibility.

9 Q. However, he needed information. Did you give him the

10 information that he asked for in paragraph 22? Was that ever

11 provided?

12 A. The word "might" I am sure was sufficient, that it could

13 affect the case.

14 Q. Was counsel ever provided with the information that he asked

15 for in paragraph 22?

16 A. I do not know because my papers ----

17 Q. Well, in due course we will be given the answer to that, I

18 hope.

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. RAMPTON: (Inaudible).

21 MR. PRICE: I beg your pardon? My Lord, we are, with the greatest

22 of respect, entitled to disclosure of that.

23 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I assume that if Mr. Eardley had given a second

24 advice on these matters, I would have been shown it.

25 MR. PRICE: Well, if your Lordship is proceeding on that basis.



[6] (Pages 183 to 186)

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2 MR. RAMPTON: Of course it would have been disclosed. We sit here

3 listening to demands for documents which are purely

4 speculative.

5 MR. PRICE: I was asking for information. I am going to move to a

6 different topic, Mr. Mengi. The question is whether you

7 exercise any influence over what goes into your newspapers and

8 whether the editors and journalists on your newspapers make a

9 big effort to do what they think you want hem this do. Do you

10 understand?

11 A. I understand.

12 Q. At the outset, I asked you a little about what interests you

13 take in the Guardian Ltd and I think you indicated that you do

14 not even see the annual budget for the Guardian Ltd?

15 A. My Lord, can I explain?

16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Just tell counsel whether you see the budget or

17 not.

18 A. Not necessarily, my Lord.

19 MR. PRICE: What do you mean "not necessarily"? Sometimes you do,

20 sometimes you do not?

21 A. I do not see them.

22 Q. You do not?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you sometimes have to fund losses at the Guardian?

25 A. Yes, my Lord.

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2 Q. Substantial losses?

3 A. My Lord, can I explain? Perhaps it is important, my Lord, for

4 me to be understood. I beg you for one minute to explain.

5 My Lord, I am a very busy person, particularly on the

6 issue of community developments. I spend an enormous amount

7 of time in the community because after I reached the age of

8 about 50, I thought I should give back to my society, to the

9 community. I decided intentionally to delegate most of my

10 work in my companies.

11 I have good people around me and my style of management

12 is what I will call "by exception". I do not get a routine

13 reports of this and that and that and that. That is not my

14 style of management. I manage by exception.

15 So if there is something substantial, something very

16 important and it is not normal, I will know about it, but not

17 everything comes through me ----

18 Q. I am not suggesting that everything does, but what I am

19 suggesting is that you take a considerable interest in the

20 finances of your companies, particularly when they are

21 loss-making?

22 A. My Lord, that is not true because I have financial experts who

23 look into all my issues of finance. If it is exceptional, he

24 will advice me; if it is not important, he will not tell me.

25 I manage by exception, not by day-to-day routine.

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2 Q. I suggest that if you want something done over your

3 newspapers, you would tell the Managing Director or Mr. Nguma

4 and it would be done?

5 A. No, my Lord.

6 Q. If we look at the IPP Media website, that has a very large

7 number of articles that have appeared in IPP newspapers on it,

8 does it not?

9 A. I presume so, my Lord.

10 Q. At the moment, the articles that it has on it date back to

11 February 2009. Do you know whether that is because there is a

12 policy of taking down articles now?

13 A. My Lord, I do not understand what you are saying.

14 Q. Let me put the question again. At the moment, if you look at

15 the IPP website, with one exception, you do not see an article

16 before February 2009.

17 A. My Lord, I have asked the IT expert to write about this and

18 send it to London because I am not particularly competent to

19 know what happened, but I am given to understand there was

20 some change and I have a little note there which I can read to

21 tell you what happened.

22 Q. What happened about what?

23 A. About the changes on the website.

24 Q. Well, I am asking you a very simple question now and if the

25 answer is "I do not know" then the answer is "I do not know",

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2 but the question is ----

3 A. I do not know.

4 Q. You do not know? Well, let me tell you (and I will be

5 corrected if I am wrong), that at the moment you do not see

6 articles before February 2009. Can you accept that?

7 A. My Lord, I said I am not a frequent visitor to the web. I

8 have too many things to do in my life and I have asked they

9 send me a note which, if my Lord allows me to read, it is

10 there.

11 Q. At the moment, on the IPP website there are 190 articles about

12 Reginald Mengi?

13 A. I have no clue.

14 Q. Does that sound as if it might be about right?

15 A. I have no clue. I do not know. I do not go around counting

16 articles.

17 Q. No, but it is an average of about one a week?

18 A. You are saying that, it is not me, so I cannot say yes when I

19 have not even checked what you are saying, what is right or

20 wrong.

21 Q. You must have some vague impression in your mind as to whether

22 that is completely right or completely wrong?

23 A. I do not go about reading about Reginald Mengi.

24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You never look at your company's website?

25 A. Very irregularly, my Lord, as I have IT managers. If



[7] (Pages 187 to 190)

[Page 187]

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2 something goes wrong, they will let me know, but honestly I do

3 not pick up the laptop or the iPad and start reading about

4 Mengi. If there is something wrong, in exception, they will

5 alert me.

6 Q. Could I ask you to look at file 5.2?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Which, I think, is the one you have got in front of you. If

9 you go right to the beginning of it, tab C, page 3, you see

10 that article?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember it?

13 A. I did not read this article on the website.

14 Q. Did you read it in the newspaper?

15 A. Not even IPP newspaper.

16 Q. You have never read it before?

17 A. I have read this, not on IPP papers.

18 Q. Not in your newspaper?

19 A. Not in this one, no.

20 Q. Where have you read it?

21 A. I was looking, someone had called me and they said there was

22 an article on me -- someone from south Africa -- they said

23 there was an article on me on the website and if I remember

24 correctly, maybe from Forbes website, also.

25 Q. Right. Well, this is what appeared in the Guardian. Will you

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2 take it from me that this is the only article on the IPP

3 website before February 2009?

4 A. I will take it, but I do not know.

5 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: The only one that is still up now?

6 MR. PRICE: Yes. Do you know why this article alone has remained

7 on your website?

8 A. My Lord, I do not know.

9 Q. Can you guess?

10 A. No.

11 Q. No idea?

12 A. No idea at all.

13 Q. I suggest to you it is because you want it to stay up there?

14 A. Who says I communicate and give orders? I said over and over

15 again, I do not give orders to the editors or any journalists.

16 Q. What you see is its headline is "Mengi named among continent's

17 greatest entrepreneurs."

18 A. I have been named as many other things. It is not the highest

19 thing I have been (inaudible) in my life. In your opinion

20 yes, but if in my opinion, no.

21 Q. Just opposite the lower punch hole, you will see that it says,

22 "Makura said Africa's .... (reads to the words) ... the

23 business world."

24 A. Sorry.

25 Q. It says here that this is the lady's attempt at showcasing

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2 some African heroes in the business world.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Well I just ask you again, do you not think that this has

5 stayed on the website because your editors think you might

6 like it to stay there?

7 A. I do not think of editors.

8 Q. Just go to page 39. I am not starting at the beginning as

9 there are a lot of these articles. Page 39, this is an

10 article headed, "Fight graft in your sector, Mengi urges

11 pharmacists. IPP executive Chairman ... (read to the

12 words).... pharmaceutical sector." This is entirely typical

13 of articles that appear all the time in your newspapers, is it

14 not, Mr. Mengi?

15 A. No.

16 Q. No?

17 A. I do not know typical. Typical in what way?

18 Q. These are articles which report addresses that you have given

19 to various schools, societies and so forth, appear all the

20 time?

21 A. I say could be one of the articles, but I do not determine the

22 nature of articles. I do not get people to report on this or

23 that because I have done that or I have said that.

24 Q. No, but your press secretary does, does he not?

25 A. I am not my press secretary.

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2 Q. I am sorry, you know what your press secretary does and it is

3 one of your press secretary's functions to ensure that

4 articles of this kind appear in your newspapers?

5 A. I do not know because ----


7 A. I do not dictate on it. He has got his job, which he must do.

8 Q. You see that just above the lower punch hole, do you see that?

9 "PSI president challenged Tanzanians", so this report has

10 about eight paragraphs on Mr. Mengi and then we get to what

11 the president of the Pharmaceutical Scientific Institute has

12 said.

13 A. You know, you can, anything -- but before, you know, the

14 background to this story, you should ask what it is all about

15 and then you can assess. We have a problem -- can I explain?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. We have a problem, my Lord, of drugs in Tanzania. The World

18 Health Organisation reckons that Tanzania and many other

19 countries of Africa, 50% of drugs are using fake drugs and

20 this, people are importing these drugs, so I am trying, here I

21 was talking about the problem.

22 Q. I am not criticising you. I think it is very public spirited

23 of you, but all I am pointing out is that you get reported at

24 length in your newspaper when you make a speech and other

25 business leaders do not.



[8] (Pages 191 to 194)

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2 A. I am not the editors. I do not dictate what they should

3 write.

4 Q. Look at page 50. This is headed, "Be self-confident and stand

5 out, says Mengi." Have you got that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This is, you say, on the first paragraph, "Failure often

8 results from .... (reads to the words) ... Mengi has said."

9 This is an extremely lengthy account of a speech that you made

10 at a primary school's tenth anniversary. Is that right?

11 A. My Lord, yes, that is right.

12 Q. Then if you look right in the middle of the page, in-between

13 the two punch holes, "An outstanding businessman himself ....

14 (reads to the words) ... for pupils." This is very typical of

15 the way in which your newspapers report you, Mr. Mengi, is it

16 not?

17 A. I do not determine this style of reporting, it is the editors.

18 Q. Why do you think the editors do it?

19 A. I wish I knew.

20 Q. I will tell you.

21 A. I am not a journalist.

22 Q. Because your press secretary tells them to.

23 A. Your personal assessment, it is not mine.

24 Q. Are you saying that your press secretary does not tell them do

25 to?

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2 A. My Lord, the press secretary is employed to act as a press

3 secretary. He went to school and college to study how to be a

4 press secretary. I am not a teacher of press secretaries and

5 I do not know what they do other than what they do through

6 their training.

7 Q. If we go two pages further on to page 52, this is you

8 addressing a teacher's training seminar. "Teachers in the

9 country have been advised not to use strikes", page 52. Have

10 you got that?

11 A. My Lord ----

12 Q. "Advice was given in Dar es Salaam ... (reads to the

13 words) ... training seminar."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This is reported at considerable length in the Guardian?

16 A. My Lord, I apologise for boring you with the same reply, but I

17 am answering the same question over and over and over again.

18 I say I do not decide on the content in my newspapers.

19 Q. No, well, his Lordship has got that point. Does any other

20 businessman get this sort of coverage in your newspapers?

21 A. Tell me one -- that fact I do not know, but tell me one

22 businessman in Tanzania who devotes almost all his life, all

23 his money helping to alleviate my people from poverty, from

24 disease.

25 Q. Let me accept immediately that you are a very philanthropic

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2 individual, Mr. Mengi, but the point I am on at the moment is

3 rather a different one and that is that you know quite well

4 that your newspapers devote an enormous amount of coverage to

5 your observations at various functions?


7 Q. Well, it is true, is it not?


9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: As a matter of fact, Mr. Mengi, I am going to

10 ask Mr. Price to stop going through these articles because you

11 do cover them at some length in your own witness statement, so

12 they were referred to, so we do not need to go through them

13 one by one.

14 MR. PRICE: No, my Lord, I will accept that. I had been planning

15 to take him through a very large number of them, but I

16 naturally accept that if your Lordship is getting ----

17 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: If there is a different point, then by all

18 means make it, but Mr. Mengi does refer to a good number of

19 these articles ----

20 MR. PRICE: I entirely understand: I will be very brief then on

21 this part. Just go to page 55. This is a report of the

22 laying of a foundation stone of a Lutheran church, is it not?

23 Page 55.

24 A. I have not read it, my Lord.

25 Q. Well, you can see that the third paragraph, Mr. Sitter, the

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2 speaker of the National Assembly, made a speech when laying

3 the foundation stone for the construction of the church.

4 A. Yes, my Lord.

5 Q. Then, if you look in the middle of the page, just about three

6 paragraphs above the bottom punch hole, we have you, Executive

7 Chairman of IPP, Reginald Mengi, emphasising the need by

8 believers to contribute more for the construction of the

9 church and that everybody was entitled to give to God. This

10 is you giving a speech at the laying of a foundation stone for

11 a Lutheran church?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. There are a number of such reports in your newspapers, are

14 there not, of you at Lutheran church functions?

15 A. Yes, my Lord. I do not only deal, help with the Christians, I

16 help all faiths. I build mosques, I build churches and I am

17 not confined to one religion in my community work.

18 Q. Your newspapers often report your speeches in extravagantly

19 praising terms. That is right, is it not?

20 A. My Lord, that is not right.

21 Q. I am sorry?

22 A. That is not true.

23 Q. It is not true?

24 A. Because how do I assess, I do not know, I do not do the work

25 of editors?



[9] (Pages 195 to 198)

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2 A. They do their work professionally and I respect their

3 profession and I do not cross the line.

4 Q. Well, I can give you innumerable examples, but let me just

5 take you to page 77. This is the first of a series of

6 articles extending over the next seven pages of a two-day

7 visit that you made to a mine. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If you look at page 78, just in the middle of the page, just

10 below the top punch hole, it says, "At a different

11 occasion .... (reads to the words) ... the voice of God." It

12 is not untypical of the way in which you were reported in your

13 newspapers, is it, Mr. Mengi?

14 A. My Lord, I do not even know what this is getting to, so I am

15 lost because if you could tell me something about this

16 article, what is wrong, what they do not know what I did, I do

17 not know what you are getting to. I can say again and again,

18 I do not cross the line, I am not the editor.

19 Q. We could go through hundreds of these stories ----

20 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Please do not, Mr. Price.

21 MR. PRICE: Sorry?

22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Please do not.

23 MR. RAMPTON: We can all read.

24 MR. PRICE: However, the point I am putting to you is that what is

25 happening here is your editors know that they are expected to

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2 do what your press secretary tells them to do and that is to

3 report to you at considerable length and in extravagant terms?

4 A. My Lord, I do not know what my press secretary tells the

5 editors, but I did not send a message to editors and I have no

6 clue what they are going to write and I have no clue what

7 (inaudible) take. I do not cross that line.

8 Q. You do not get this sort of coverage in other newspapers, do

9 you, Mr. Mengi?

10 A. My Lord, I do not know the criteria. Editors, be it my papers

11 or be it other papers, I do not know what criteria they take

12 in picking up a story.

13 Q. Again, I am going to take this very shortly, but let us have a

14 look. If we look at page 3, so you can put file 5.2 away now

15 Mr. Mengi and take out file 3. If you go to tab B, just so

16 that my Lord and, indeed, you, Mr. Mengi, know what this

17 section is, this is a section of the trial bundle which

18 contains your solicitors' and counsels' selection of Guardian

19 articles that we have mentioned in our statements of case,

20 together with reports in other newspapers of the same events.

21 You understand?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Just let us start at page 73. This is a report in the

24 Guardian in April 2009 and the heading is "Professor Lipumba

25 challenges the governor on anti-graft crusade." This is part

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2 of the mass of publicity that followed your press conference

3 and ITV programme about the sharks of corruption, is it not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Professor Lipumba is the leader of the largest opposition

6 party in the National Assembly?

7 A. It is not true.

8 Q. You tell me what -- I quite accept correction on that; who is

9 he?

10 A. (Inaudible).

11 Q. Sorry?

12 A. (Inaudible).

13 Q. I do not understand.

14 MR. RAMPTON: That is the name of the ----

15 A. If you know ----

16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: We are looking at early 2009, I think, rather

17 than now. What office, if any, did Professor Lipumba hold?

18 A. He was Head of Opposition, a party called CUF, my Lord.

19 Q. Which was the largest opposition party in Parliament. Am I

20 right?

21 A. I cannot remember whether it was or it was still not, it is

22 still Chadema, but I know currently it is Chadema, the

23 largest, that is the leading political party.

24 Q. Yes. Here it is described as the Civic United Front, in your

25 newspaper.

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2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Just look at the second column of this article and the second

4 full paragraph there. Do you see that? It starts, "He

5 commended IPP Chairman, Reginald Mengi." Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "For taking a bold stand by naming those he referred to as

8 sharks of corruption ....(reads to the words).... little

9 seriousness in the war against corruption, Lipumba said." So,

10 your newspaper presents Prof. Lipumba as commending you for

11 your stance, is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Let's see how it was reported in other newspapers. If you go

14 over the page, this is The Daily News for the same day:

15 "Lipumba slams Mengi over graft list".

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It is a somewhat different slant on the story, is it not? Do

18 you see what it says: "Civic United Front Chairman Lipumba has

19 criticised the Chairman, Mr. Mengi, for his recent list of

20 corrupt businessmen and accused him of eroding efforts on war

21 against graft ....(reads to the words).... perpetrators of

22 corruption in the country." In the fourth column Prof.

23 Lipumba said: "It was ridiculous to single out a few

24 individuals ....(reads to the words).... needed greater

25 intervention." And so it goes on. Highly critical of you.



[10] (Pages 199 to 202)

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2 A. My Lord, can I explain?


4 A. My Lord, what is happening here is someone thinking that I am

5 responsible, or accountable, or even answerable. May I say

6 again, my Lord, that I am not responsible, I am not

7 accountable, neither am I answerable for the actions of my

8 editors. The way they put the story, it is their

9 responsibility and they are accountable. If need be you

10 should put my editors here and ask them those questions.

11 Q. Over the page, page 75, this is how it was reported in The

12 African on the same day: "Lipumba joins the fray, hits at

13 Mengi over list of sharks. He accuses him of being a racist

14 and selling himself cheaply." It is rather different to how

15 it was reported in The Guardian, is it not?

16 A. My Lord, it may be different but I keep on saying, I do not

17 cross that line. I am not responsible, I am not accountable,

18 and I am not answerable for what the editors do. I do not

19 know how else I can put it.

20 Q. I understand. Let's look at how it was reported in Ynanki,

21 page 76, on the same day. The headline is, "Lipumba. Mengi

22 is seeking favours with President Kikwete ....(reads to the

23 words).... simply because the latter is the sitting

24 President."

25 Then just below the lower punch hole, "Prof. Lipumba

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2 said, in fact by making this statement Mengi is not helping in

3 the anti-corruption war, he is actually undermining it."

4 Over the page, page 77, in the second paragraph,

5 Mr. Lipumba accused you of playing a card of racism?

6 A. My Lord, I am not a racist.

7 Q. I am not accusing you of being a racist, Mr. Mengi. The point

8 is simply this. Your newspapers clearly regard it as part of

9 their function to distort where necessary news stories so as

10 to favour you, the proprietor; that is clear, is it not?

11 A. My Lord, it is not clear. I will say again, I possibly, my

12 Lord, am boring you with the same answer again, I do not cross

13 the line. I am not responsible, I am not accountable, neither

14 am I answerable for what my editors do.

15 Q. This is all done by your press secretary on your behalf.

16 A. I do not know.


18 A. No, not at all.

19 Q. Have you no suspicion as to what is going on?

20 A. How do I have suspicion when I employ professionals throughout

21 my papers.

22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Just tell me, who is your press secretary?

23 A. His name is Njovu, at the moment.

24 Q. Who was in, say, 2009?

25 A. Somebody called Morando, I think. It must be the same, it is

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2 still the same, my Lord, Njovu.

3 Q. Is there somebody working, a full-time salaried employee

4 working for you?

5 A. My Lord, that was the press secretary and PR, public relations

6 officer.

7 Q. He worked for you as an individual and not for a group of

8 companies?

9 A. He works for the company, my Lord.

10 Q. For the company?

11 A. Yes, my Lord.

12 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you.

13 MR. PRICE: Other newspapers quite often publish stories that are

14 quite nice about you, particularly where you are giving large

15 amounts of money, as you do, to good causes but they quite

16 often publish quite critical stuff about you, do they not?

17 A. My Lord, I do not get involved to find out whether the story

18 is good or bad but I assume that editors, whether my papers or

19 other papers, write what they consider is newsworthy.

20 Q. No, of course they do but the point is, are you prepared to

21 accept that quite often they write stuff that is quite

22 critical of you?

23 A. My Lord, whether they are critical or not, I take it that they

24 have considered the articles and found them newsworthy.

25 Q. If you look, for example, at page 70, this is in The African,

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2 this is a headline at the bottom of the page, page 70:

3 "Minister accuses Mengi of misusing his media outlets." There

4 was no headline like that in any of your newspapers, was

5 there?

6 A. I do not know.

7 Q. You do not know. We could multiply examples of this. Look at

8 page 114, this is MTanzania, I do not know how to pronounce

9 that, is it MTanzania? The headline, "Reginald Mengi runs

10 away ....(reads to the words).... sent his two lawyers,

11 Mr. Ngalo and Mr. Nguma, who talked to journalists on his

12 behalf." It is not very complimentary, is it? I am not

13 saying it is true, it is just not very complimentary.

14 A. I do not, my Lord, I do not go around looking for compliments,

15 whether they compliment or not, but I respect those editors.

16 Q. I understand. Look at page 140, Tanzania Daima. It says,

17 "Arrogance shown by prominent businessman Reginald Mengi

18 before journalists by putting openly his membership in the CCM

19 and his efforts to assist it seems to shake up that ruling

20 party, Tanzania Daima reports." What I am suggesting is that

21 there is a very striking contrast between how you are reported

22 in your own newspapers and what I suggest is that it is

23 because it is your influence as the owner percolating down via

24 your press secretary so that your editors and journalists know

25 what is required.



[11] (Pages 203 to 206)

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2 A. No, my Lord. That is your opinion.

3 Q. Is it right?

4 A. What is right?

5 Q. Is it right that what we see here is your influence

6 percolating down through your newspapers to the editors and

7 journalists via your press secretary and they know what you

8 want?

9 A. My Lord, I respect editor independence and whatever they write

10 I do not tamper with.

11 Q. And that the explanation for the series of articles about

12 Benjamin Mengi and the Silverdale dispute in your newspapers

13 is because the editors knew what was required and that was

14 that they should show their support to Mr. Benjamin Mengi.

15 A. My Lord, the person who can answer that is the editor and not

16 me. I do not know how many times I have said this, I do not

17 cross the line. I am not responsible, I am not accountable,

18 and I am not answerable.

19 Q. That is why what is otherwise inexplicable that the managing

20 editors of your newspapers did not reply to the letters that

21 they got from Mr. Middleton and Miss Hermitage.

22 A. How would I know that?

23 MR. RAMPTON: I believe if the case is to be made the question

24 must be put, is the question, was that on the direct

25 instructions or express instructions of Mr. Mengi or was it

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2 not?

3 MR. PRICE: Did you ever instruct anyone in your newspapers that

4 you wanted your brother's side put in this?

5 A. Never.

6 Q. I suggest to you that whether you instructed it or not, you

7 knew what was happening and you were well content for that to

8 be so.

9 A. I am glad we are in court. I never did.

10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Price, at some point in the next 10

11 minutes when you reach a convenient point we will take a

12 break.

13 MR. PRICE: Your Lordship will be pleased to hear that I shall be

14 moving away from the topic of his newspapers in about five

15 minutes. One feature of reports in your newspapers is lengthy

16 reports of courtesy calls by ambassadors on you, Mr. Mengi.

17 That is right, is it not?

18 A. I meet ambassadors, yes.

19 Q. So do other prominent businessmen?

20 A. I am sorry?

21 Q. So do other prominent businessmen.

22 A. I am sure. I do not know but I know about myself, not about

23 other businessmen.

24 Q. In your newspapers, we see long reports, often more than a

25 page, of what you and ambassadors have said. There is the

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2 Irish Ambassador, the Egyptian Ambassador, the Palestinian

3 Ambassador, the Turkish Ambassador, the South African High

4 Commissioner, the Brazilian Ambassador, the Rwandan

5 Ambassador, the Swedish Ambassador, the Swiss Ambassador, the

6 EU Ambassador, the Pakistan High Commissioner, and the

7 Norwegian Ambassador. We see that all in the bundle.

8 A. My Lord, can I explain? There is something called economic

9 diplomacy. These ambassadors will come to Tanzania. After

10 seeing the President, who they see as political, for political

11 reasons, whenever they want to assess the situation in

12 Tanzania as regards business invariably they all come to me.

13 It is very common thing in Tanzania. The moment they come to

14 Tanzania I think they are told by their colleagues or their

15 governments, meet Mr. Mengi to assess the business side of the

16 diplomacy. I do not invite them. They come on their own.

17 I talk to them about the business in Tanzania.

18 Q. With a photographer present?

19 A. I am sorry?

20 Q. With a photographer present?

21 A. What do you mean? I do not understand.

22 Q. Usually, or very often, a photograph of you and the ambassador

23 chatting together.

24 A. Is anything wrong?

25 Q. No, nothing wrong at all. I am just asking if you arranged

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2 for a photographer to be present.

3 A. Ambassadors get appointments to see me. It is for the

4 particular editor to decide whether it is newsworthy for our

5 discussions to be reported because when the ambassadors go to

6 see the President they are covered in the media.

7 Q. When they see the President ----

8 A. I am saying ----

9 Q. You are not comparing yourself to the President?

10 A. No, no, wait a moment, please. I say when they arrive almost

11 every ambassador come to me after seeing the President but

12 they want to assess the business side of Tanzania. I do not

13 invite them. They ask for Mengi. The press secretary may

14 decide to get whatever media ----

15 Q. Your press secretary must be present at these occasions and

16 making notes of what is said.

17 A. I do not think my press secretary is there all the time, every

18 meeting.

19 Q. How is anyone able to report what goes on?

20 A. The journalists come.

21 Q. There are journalists present on these occasions?

22 A. People from all of the media, not only journalists from IPP

23 Media.

24 Q. These reports do not appear in other newspapers.

25 A. They do appear. Yes, they do appear.



[12] (Pages 207 to 210)

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1 MENGI-PRICE

2 Q. We shall see. Could I ask you to take bundle 5.2 and go to

3 page 37. We see three paragraphs below the lower punch hole,

4 there is a paragraph that says that this is a report of what

5 you were saying, "What you are witnessing today is partly

6 thanks to the input", do you see that?

7 A. Which one?

8 Q. Three paragraphs below the lower punch hole, "What you are

9 witnessing today", do you have that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. "....is partly thanks to the influence of somebody who rose

12 from poverty ....(reads to the words).... I am now using the

13 media to thank people." Is media work your hobby?

14 A. I think not my hobby. I am misquoted there.

15 Q. You are misquoted in your own newspaper?

16 A. They write what they want.

17 Q. Are you using your meda to thank people?

18 A. They write what they want. I did not say -- I was misquoted.

19 Q. You did not say any of that?

20 A. I cannot remember if I said that.

21 Q. So your journalists have made this up, have they?

22 A. Whatever, they write what they want. I did not call them and

23 say that is wrong.

24 MR. PRICE: My Lord, that may be a good moment.

25 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: On that last point, Mr. Mengi, you say you

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2 were misquoted. How do you know?

3 A. Because it is something I will not say, my Lord. I could have

4 said something (inaudible) what I say but that did not come

5 from me. I do not take media as a hobby, in the first place.

6 Media is my business. The hobby is something which you do

7 just for fun. Media is my business, serious business. If

8 I had the habit of interfering with editorial I would have

9 called them, but I would not call them because they wrote what

10 they want to write.

11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you. We will break off there until 5 to

12 12.

13 MR. PRICE: Thank you, my Lord.

14 (Short adjournment)

15 MR. PRICE: I have just one more reference, if I may, file 5.2,

16 and if you go to page 114, this is in December 2010. It is a

17 report of an address you gave at a gala dinner organised by

18 IPP Media. You are reported as saying, "IPP Chairman has

19 promised to improve coverage services in his media outlets to

20 meet audience expectations in a win-win situation with

21 advertisers. Mengi made the pledge at a dinner gala."

22 I suggest you are not entirely hands-off where your media are

23 concerned, Mr. Mengi, if you are able to make that pledge.

24 A. This is to do, my Lord, with investment, not the sort of cover

25 you are talking about. It is expansion of business.

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2 Q. You are promising to improve coverage services?

3 A. I do not mean the writing, I mean investment to expand.

4 Q. Is that your decision, then, to invest to expand?

5 A. Investment, yes, it is the board decision.

6 Q. But you are not a member of the board of The Guardian?

7 A. I am not a member of the board but the board comes to me if

8 they need some money, if there is a problem, sometimes I am

9 approached, but at the end of the day the money comes from me.

10 Q. Yes, the money does come from you, Mr. Mengi. Mr. Mengi, you

11 say in paragraph 53 of your witness statement, and you can

12 turn it up if you want to but I will quote what it says,

13 "I state that my activities are not given any preferential

14 treatment by The Guardian's publications or by ITV's

15 television and radio channels."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I have to suggest that that statement is plainly not true.

18 A. Listen, my Lord, I do not know how many times I say this,

19 because I do not direct the editors and journalists, I do not

20 ask them for ----

21 Q. We are not on that point. We are on the point as to whether

22 you are given preferential treatment.

23 A. I would not know.

24 Q. You say in your witness statement that you are not. Are you

25 now saying that you would not know?

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2 A. What I am saying, I am saying I am not given preference.

3 I would not expect preference either.

4 Q. That is plainly false.

5 A. What you say is false. What I say is right.

6 Q. That you are not given any preferential treatment in your

7 newspapers?

8 A. What to write or not write is entirely in the hands of the

9 editors.

10 Q. That is a different point, Mr. Mengi. Are you at all familiar

11 with Mr. Eric Kamendera?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You have never met him?

14 A. Never.

15 Q. Do you know who he is?

16 A. I read from the statement that he used to work for The

17 Guardian.

18 Q. A Tanzanian journalist needs considerable courage to come here

19 from Tanzania to give evidence against you, Mr. Mengi, does he

20 not?

21 A. Why?

22 Q. You are a powerful man in Tanzania?

23 A. In whose views? In your opinion?

24 Q. You know that what I say is true. You are a powerful man in

25 Tanzania.



[13] (Pages 211 to 214)

[Page 211]

1 MENGI-PRICE

2 A. The owners of telling you whether you are powerful or not does

3 not lie with me, it lies with other people.

4 Q. Just answer the question, Mr. Kamendera requires a good deal

5 of courage to come here to give evidence against you.

6 A. Why? I do not think so.

7 Q. He says that your press secretary, Mr. Njovu (N-J-O-V-U) was

8 regularly in The Guardian's newsroom and he was there whenever

9 there was to be a story about you and the editors had to show

10 him how the stories would appear. That is right, is it not?

11 A. My Lord, I do not know what happens. I do not know.

12 Q. So it could be right?

13 A. I do not know.

14 Q. You do not know. He says that he was told by Mr. Mauggo that

15 The Guardian would not publish negative stories about the

16 mining industry because of your interests in mining.

17 A. My Lord, that is not true.

18 Q. Did you not give an indication that you did not want negative

19 stories about mining?

20 A. My Lord, I have one of my papers there which talks about

21 mining and if you can show what is positive about that article

22 then I will say I have suspicion of what you say, but that is

23 totally untrue.

24 Q. I am sure you will be shown that in re-examination. Do you

25 recall when a report about the float of Barrick Mining.

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2 Barrick Mining is quite an important world gold mining

3 business, is it not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The report of the float of Barrick Mining appeared in all the

6 Tanzania newspapers but not The Guardian. That is right, is

7 it not?

8 A. I do not know.

9 Q. You telephoned Mr. Mauggo and said, what is going on.

10 A. I never never call editors on any matters of content, my Lord.

11 Q. I suggest that you did call him and that as a result the story

12 appeared the following day?

13 A. My Lord, I say that is a lie.

14 Q. Mr. Kamendera says that reporters were told never to publish

15 anything negative about the President. Did that come from

16 you?

17 A. That is even a bigger lie. I have never said that.

18 Q. Has there been a negative story about the President in one of

19 your newspapers?

20 A. I do not know. That is a question you can ask my editors.

21 I do not get involved.

22 Q. You cannot think of one?

23 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Sorry, can I just make a note. You do not

24 know whether your newspapers have ever published an article

25 critical of the President.

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2 A. Yes, my Lord.

3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, Mr. Price.

4 MR. PRICE: Can I just ask you to look at file 3, you can put

5 file 5.2 away and go to file 3 (at the right-hand end of your

6 box) and go to tab D, page 183. This is a memo from the

7 Managing Director of The Guardian to the Group Editorial

8 Director of IPP in October 2008. It has the heading,

9 "Publication of stories on the President ....(reads to the

10 words).... this remains the company's official stand and all

11 editors are obliged to observe it without fail." Where did

12 the managing director get that idea from?

13 A. You ask him. It is not from me.

14 Q. Unfortunately, the managing director is not going to be a

15 witness. I should very much like to ask him about his

16 relationship with you, Mr. Mengi, but I have no alternative

17 but to ask you, where did he get this idea from?

18 A. Can I say again, this is an issue of content and I do not

19 cross the line. This is the MD.

20 Q. Let us look at the commonsense of it. Do you think

21 Mr. Msharma just made this up and thought, "Oh, it would be a

22 good idea if we never say anything hostile about the

23 President."

24 A. Perhaps he could have got the thing from his board of

25 directors, but I presume the board does not tamper with the

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2 ----

3 Q. The board of directors of The Guardian might have made that

4 decision?

5 A. I do not know.

6 Q. Mr. Nguma, your lawyer, and Miss Luhanga, your marketing

7 director?

8 A. You see, you are asking the wrong person. I say I do not

9 cross that line.

10 Q. The common sense of it is that this policy comes from you,

11 Mr. Mengi?

12 A. What is common sense? You do not (inaudible). I say it does

13 not come from me and I do not cross that line.

14 Q. You can be generous to journalists on The Guardian

15 publications, can you not, Mr. Mengi?

16 A. What for? They get their salaries. I am not paying their

17 salaries. They get paid their salaries. What other else ----

18 Q. You give them cash bonuses occasionally.

19 A. That is an insult. Please.

20 Q. What is the matter with giving them a cash bonus?

21 A. That is an insult. Why should I give them cash? They get

22 their salaries.

23 Q. Why should you not give them a cash bonus?

24 A. From my pocket, or from where? Why should I?

25 Q. From your pocket.



[14] (Pages 215 to 218)

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2 A. Why?

3 Q. Or from your bank account.

4 A. That is an insult. Please.

5 Q. I suggest to you that you do give cash payments to

6 journalists.

7 A. I say that, please, is an insult and I do not come to be

8 insulted.

9 Q. Is it true?

10 A. True what?

11 Q. Is it true, Mr. Mengi?

12 A. It is not true. My Lord, I say that is an insult.

13 Q. There was a scandal in Tanzania over executives of the Central

14 Bank being provided with extremely expensive residences at the

15 public expense. Do you remember that?

16 A. Which one? Tanzania is full of scandals. Can you give me the

17 details?

18 Q. I have just give you the details. This is the Central Bank of

19 Tanzania and there was a scandal about executives being

20 provided with extremely luxurious residences out of the public

21 purse, do you remember that?

22 A. I remember it happening but I do not know all the details.

23 Q. You directed The Guardian not to publish critical stories

24 about that, indeed to publish a story that was sympathetic to

25 the executives.

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2 A. My Lord, that is a total lie, a naked lie.

3 Q. Were you sympathetic to the executives?

4 A. Why should I be sympathetic?

5 Q. Did you have borrowings from NBC, the National Banking

6 Corporation, I think it is.

7 A. When?

8 Q. During the period, this would be in about late 2009, early

9 2010.

10 A. No.

11 Q. When did you repay your borrowings?

12 A. Which loan? The only thing I know, NBC, it is supplying it

13 from (inaudible) ----

14 Q. Did you never have borrowings from the NBC?

15 A. In business you borrow and pay back. There is not a single

16 businessman -- I came to ----

17 Q. I am just asking you a simple question, did you have

18 borrowings from the NBC?

19 A. Yes, borrowing is a normal part of business but you borrow and

20 pay back.

21 Q. Mr. Kamendera says you would not allow a story about people

22 with borrowings from NBC to be published until after you had

23 repaid your loan.

24 A. That is a total lie. It is a naked lie.

25 Q. In April 2009 you held a press conference to publicise your

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2 views on corruption in Tanzania, did you not? This is the

3 "sharks of corruption" press conference.

4 A. I did, with pleasure.

5 Q. And if I can just ask you to look at what you said.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This is in file 3B, page 47. This is your press release which

8 is signed by you in which you do two things. First of all,

9 you say, "Our country is facing a huge problem of corruption

10 ....(reads to the words).... who are supporting the President

11 and stopping further plunder." You were appraising the

12 President's stand on corruption, is that right?

13 A. At that time, yes.

14 Q. Then you go on to say, "Tanzanians should know that people are

15 being accused of being corrupt do not exceed 10 and out of 10

16 five are being accused of being notoriously corrupt sharks."

17 Then you name them. (Names read from document) These people

18 are being accused of stealing billions of public money and you

19 describe them as notoriously corrupt people.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That press release was carried verbatim in The Guardian, was

22 it not?

23 A. I do not remember but I would expect it to be carried there.

24 Q. Word for word, every word of it?

25 A. Word for word, I cannot know, but I would expect it to be.

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2 Q. I need not take you to it. The press conference that you had

3 was filmed, was it not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who arranged for it to be filmed?

6 A. My press secretary.

7 Q. Your press secretary. Your press secretary then took the tape

8 to ITV, did he not?

9 A. I presume so.

10 Q. You know so, do you not?

11 A. Yes, they send someone to ITV or not, I do not know

12 (inaudible)----

13 Q. Either he did it himself or he told someone to do it.

14 A. Possibly, yes.

15 Q. With a view to it being broadcast.

16 A. Whatever they wanted to do with the tape.

17 Q. It was up to them, was it?

18 A. I am sorry?

19 Q. Was there any real doubt that when your press secretary took

20 them the tape and asked them to broadcast it that that is

21 exactly what they would do?

22 A. I would expect the relevant director, the news director, to

23 have a say in what to broadcast and not to broadcast. He or

24 she could say no.

25 Q. So you had no idea whether it would be broadcast or not?



[15] (Pages 219 to 222)

[Page 219]

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2 A. Certainly not.

3 Q. Did you have any negotiations about whether it would be

4 broadcast?

5 A. When I specifically said he had a special problem and would

6 cost so much, I said yes.

7 Q. It was going to cost so much?

8 A. For the television, yes. He said it was a problem and it

9 would cost so much, and it was paid.

10 Q. Were you asked to pay for it in advance of it being broadcast?

11 A. I say I was told it was going to be paid for and all that

12 I remember is I told him we could either pay in cash

13 immediately or there is an account.

14 Q. Were you told that you would have to pay for it before or

15 after it was broadcast?

16 A. Before.

17 Q. Are you sure about that?

18 A. I am saying I am sure.

19 Q. And it was broadcast?

20 A. Yes, definitely.

21 Q. Every word of it, uncut, in a special programme?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That night, the same night as the press conference, is that

24 right?

25 A. It was broadcast, whether it was the same night, other night,

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2 it was broadcast.

3 Q. It was broadcast on the same night and then it was broadcast

4 again four days later.

5 A. I presume so.

6 Q. You know so, do you not?

7 A. (No audible reply).

8 Q. There had been no time for ITV to conduct the normal

9 investigations into such a highly defamatory broadcast before

10 they broadcast it, was there?

11 A. I do not decide all the time, all I was told, a special

12 problem, will be paid for, and I approved.

13 Q. The commonsense of this, Mr. Mengi, is that you wanted it

14 broadcast, you told your press secretary to take it along to

15 ITV and they broadcasts it just as you would expect?

16 A. I say I do not damper with what they decide and what time, it

17 was entirely the decision of the editor to decide, can I put

18 this problem on my television, yes, it should go ahead. But

19 I did not call her, I did not say, please do a broadcast.

20 I followed the normal channel.

21 Q. You knew quite well that if you said, I want I broadcast, it

22 would be.

23 A. I am sorry?

24 Q. You knew quite well that if you said, I want this broadcast,

25 it would be. It was your television channel.

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2 A. You know, you make this thing very simple. I was told by the

3 (inaudible) to keep a distance from editorial, I was

4 (inaudible) and that is what I practise. I stay away. There

5 is aline dividing myself and editorial. It is their decision

6 to decide whether to do the programme or not. It is not my

7 decision.

8 Q. But you knew what the decision would be?

9 A. The only thing I was told by the press secretary when he came

10 back, when he saw me, he said, "This must be paid for," and I

11 said, "Yes."

12 Q. You have personally committed yourself to balance in your

13 media, have you not?

14 A. Very much so, but the balancing is not my job. It is not me

15 who makes the decisions to balance or not balance. That is

16 the job of the editor, the editorial staff. I don't know

17 where the balance is or that balance. I am not a professional

18 journalist.

19 Q. There was no balance in this programme at all; none of the

20 people that you were accusing were given any opportunity to

21 have their say at all, were they?


23 Q. But it is true, is it not?

24 A. I say that is your opinion.

25 Q. Mr. Mengi, you are hardly denying it. It was broadcast, all

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2 11 minutes of it, twice, and absolutely nothing ----

3 A. I don't tell my editors, "Do this, do that."

4 Q. That is not the question. The question is: were any of the

5 people that you were accusing of corruption given the

6 opportunity to put their side of the story?

7 A. Can you please ask my editor? She will be coming here.

8 Q. Well, you know, because you saw it.

9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Mengi, are you saying that you did not see

10 the broadcast and you have no idea what the contents were?

11 A. My Lord, I know what you say, but as far as balancing stories,

12 it is not my responsibility, my Lord. I cannot go to ITV and

13 say, "Balance this story." I don't, my Lord.

14 Q. Mr. Mengi, counsel was not asking you why there was nothing

15 about the people accused of being sharks of corruption. He

16 was simply asking you whether there was anything from the

17 people being accused of being sharks of corruption. It seems

18 to me that if you saw the broadcast, you must be able to

19 remember whether there was anything like that?

20 A. As far as I remember, my Lord, seeing the programme, certainly

21 I do see the other side of the story, which means there is no

22 balance. But I am saying that is me now, but there is nothing

23 I can do with editorial staff. I could not tell them, "Go and

24 balance the story."

25 MR. PRICE: I am well aware, and my Lord is well aware, that you



[16] (Pages 223 to 226)

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2 simply wash your hands of everything that happens in your

3 media, Mr. Mengi.

4 A. I am not washing my hands. I am just saying the reality.

5 Q. It is inconceivable that this would have been done for any

6 businessman, other than the Chairman and the owner of the

7 television station, is it not?

8 A. My Lord, one of the people I mentioned as a shark of

9 corruption, Mr. Rosdan Aziz, went on the national television

10 and gave his side of the story.

11 Q. On another television station?

12 A. I say, what I say, he does not own a television station, but

13 he also went and did the same things I did.

14 Q. Well, maybe that television station thought it was only fair

15 to give the other side a chance to reply?

16 A. But he never went to ITV. I don't know whether he went to ITV

17 or not. I am not very sure what happened. But he went

18 public.

19 Q. I will put the question once more, and perhaps you could

20 answer it directly. It is inconceivable that this would have

21 been done by ITV for anyone other than the Chairman and

22 proprietor of the TV station?

23 A. I am sure it could have been.

24 Q. It would have been?

25 A. It could have been done.

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2 Q. So, if Miss Hermitage goes along to ITV with £800 -- which

3 I think is what you paid, is it not, approximately -- and

4 says, "Look, I want a quarter of an hour to broadcast

5 something that is highly defamatory," she would get that

6 facility, would she?

7 A. As I say, in my opinion, if she went to ITV and maybe

8 (inaudible) the managing editor, my hope is that the managing

9 editor would carry her aboard. I am saying, but that decision

10 is made by the editor.

11 Q. What do you think the chances of Miss Hermitage getting her

12 views broadcast are?

13 A. For me, I would think, I do not see why -- I have got

14 professionals running the station -- quite honestly, I don't

15 see why she would be refused. Personally, I don't see why she

16 would be refused. That is my view -- because they would do

17 the job according to professional standards.

18 Q. You were greatly criticised for having broadcast this on your

19 own television station, were you not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. By the Minister of Information, Culture and Sports?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And also by the Minister For Good Government?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. They thought that it was improper use of the media?

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2 A. I think, looking at what happened, what they are saying, it

3 was very political. It was political. Because these people

4 were supposed to be in charge of good governance, anything

5 said against them ----

6 Q. Why do you say it was against them? It was very supportive of

7 the President?

8 A. Take Simba, Minister Simba, she is a very, very close friend

9 of Rosdan Aziz, and there is no way she could condone anybody

10 to disclose corruption with Aziz.

11 Q. What about the Minister For Information, Culture and Support?

12 A. It is very, very political. This I can say, that is the

13 position, and governments do not want to be criticised.

14 Q. But you were not criticising the government; you were

15 supporting the government?

16 A. But if you look through my statement, my problem was inaction.

17 Q. But you speak of the great efforts of His Excellency the

18 President?

19 A. Yes, and where I fell out with the President on this matter is

20 because what he was promising to be done was not done, and my

21 concern was inaction.

22 Q. There is not a word of criticism of the government anywhere in

23 your press statement, Mr. Mengi?

24 A. I say if you look through, there will be areas where I say my

25 concern is not taking action, if you look through the press

[Page 226]

1 MENGI-PRICE2 releases -- you may not have it -- some of my press releases3 or meetings. My concern in Tanzania is people took -- if4 there is corruption, by not taking action against the5 culprits; that is my problem.6 Q. Well, if Mr. Rampton can find any criticism, I expect he will7 put it to you in re-examination.8 A. Yes.9 Q. Could I just ask you to look -- have you got file 3 there,10 still? Go to page 126, would you?11 A. 123?12 Q. 126.13 A. Thank you.14 Q. You are responding here to the Minister's critical statement;15 is that right?16 A. Yes.17 Q. If you look at paragraph 2, you rather startlingly say, "I did18 not accuse anybody of corruption."19 A. Paragraph 2?20 Q. Yes, on page 127.21 A. Sorry.22 Q. You have in fact accused them of being notoriously corrupt,23 have you not?24 A. Yes.25 Q. If you look at paragraph 6, "I am very saddened" -- that is on



[17] (Pages 227 to 230)

[Page 227]

1 MENGI-PRICE

2 page 128. Have you got that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "I am very saddened by the government's passiveness in

5 allowing TBC One" -- that is another television channel?

6 A. Government channel.

7 Q. "....to be used by a private individual, Mr. Aziz to attack

8 me, very improper use, is ignored, but, very surprisingly, the

9 government is accusing me of improper use of the media that

10 I own, when I use it to combat corruption."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It is a perfectly correct statement: you used your media to

13 publicise your views on corruption, did you not?

14 A. My Lord, you have to talk about (inaudible) Tanzania, once you

15 know what it means. You can sit miles away and not understand

16 what I am talking about. My Lord, can I explain?

17 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Counsel is asking quite a limited question.

18 I am not conducting an inquiry into the corruption in

19 Tanzania.

20 THE WITNESS: Okay, my Lord. I am sorry, my Lord.

21 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Just put the question again, Mr. Price.

22 MR. PRICE: You said here that you are concerned about being

23 criticised for improper use of the media that you own "when I

24 use it to combat corruption"?

25 A. Yes.

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2 Q. This is an absolutely correct description of what you did; you

3 used your media to publicise your views, did you not?

4 A. To combat corruption.

5 Q. You used your media?

6 A. I used media.

7 Q. In the first issue of the Guardian -- we can turn this up if

8 necessary -- on the front page, you had an editorial about the

9 standards that were going to be upheld in the Guardian, and

10 you signed it as Editor in Chief?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. There is nothing wrong about your being Editor in Chief if you

13 wanted to be, is there?

14 A. My Lord, when I started the paper, I asked ----

15 Q. Well, perhaps you could answer the question? Would there be

16 anything wrong about your deciding to be Editor in Chief?

17 A. As the words stand, unless you know the background, as the

18 words stand, it is not right. I feel, with hindsight,

19 I should not have used that term, Editor in Chief.

20 Q. At that time you were clearly intending to be Editor in Chief?

21 A. I had no intention at all.

22 Q. Why did you describe yourself as Editor in Chief?

23 A. As I say, I was advised. Later, I regret it, because I was

24 told to follow the same route as (inaudible) had done.

25 Q. But he did not describe himself as Editor in Chief of

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2 anything?

3 A. I was told.

4 Q. Who by?

5 A. By my advisers.

6 Q. Your advisers told you to describe yourself as Editor in Chief

7 and you said yes?

8 A. I say it does not mean editing, in the sense. It is a way,

9 what to say, you can say what is in the newspaper. But as I

10 say, I made a mistake. I made a mistake.

11 Q. How can you possibly make a mistake? You were obviously

12 intending to be Editor in Chief; and why should you not be?

13 A. I say I made a mistake. Today, I would not have used that

14 word.

15 Q. Well, you certainly would not today, because you are

16 presenting a rather different picture in court.

17 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Do we have this document?

18 MR. PRICE: Yes, we do, my Lord. It is in file 3, tab C, at

19 page 169. If you look first at page 168, this goes back to

20 1970, and is in -- it certainly is not in one of your

21 newspapers. It is the Tanzania's Standard, and it is signed

22 by Julius Nyerere, who was the President at that time, was he?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the founder of the nation?

25 A. Yes.

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2 Q. And so you followed on; when the Guardian, on the next page,

3 was first published, issue number 1, in 1995, you did a

4 similar sort of comment?

5 A. Yes. I admit it is a mistake.

6 Q. And you signed it as Editor in Chief.

7 A. I took wrong advice, and I see it was a mistake. What more

8 can I say?

9 Q. Well, I need not press the point. It is inconceivable that

10 you could have done that by mistake, Mr. Mengi?

11 A. You say inconceivable, but I say it is a mistake, for which

12 I regret it. I shouldn't have said that, but I took advice

13 and I thought -- I was very new in the media. I cannot argue

14 with that one.

15 Q. In about April -- I am sorry, my Lord, I am moving to a

16 different topic?


18 MR. PRICE: In about April 2008 you appointed a group editorial

19 director for all IPP publications; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Including the Guardian newspapers?

22 A. Whichever paper (inaudible), because she came in to improve

23 the quality of the organisation.

24 Q. I am sorry, Mr. Mengi. You appointed a group editorial

25 director for all IPP print media?



[18] (Pages 231 to 234)

[Page 231]

1 MENGI-PRICE

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And her job was to oversee the editorial content of IPP print

4 publications?

5 A. No. It was to raise the standard.

6 Q. Well, just go to file 2, would you, at tab 2?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you see, this is what Mr. Nguma has to say about it.

9 Tab 2, paragraph 26. He starts by saying that she was willing

10 to be managing editor of This Day on Sunday -- I will come on

11 to that, because that is not right -- and had approached him

12 with the suggestion that there was no reason why the Guardian

13 and your other print company should not put her talents to

14 good use; such a system existed at Wananke (?) Publications.

15 She proposed that she should be appointed to oversee the

16 editorial content of the publications, which would have been

17 printed by MSL. I cannot remember what MSL is. Oh, Media

18 Solutions Limited, that is right -- and the Guardian.

19 "Reginald Mengi told me that the Board had already agreed with

20 the suggestion. It would only work if TGL also agreed.

21 I discussed, and we had no objection." So, that is what she

22 was appointed to do, to oversee the editorial content of the

23 publications?

24 A. Let me put right. She came in to improve editorial content,

25 just like (inaudible), because that is what they have in their

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2 setup.

3 Q. She had complete editorial freedom in relation to IPP print

4 publications, did she not?

5 A. Without prejudicing the existing editorial staff or editorial

6 independence.

7 Q. She could tell them what to do; that was her job?

8 A. Later on you will find that when she tried to do so, they

9 resisted and she had to go.

10 Q. She reported to you, did she not, Mr. Mengi?

11 A. I appointed her, but she did not report to me on matters of

12 content.

13 Q. Sorry, Mr. Mengi, just let me ask the question again. You

14 appointed her and she reported to you; that is right, is it

15 not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It is not true, therefore, that you have never had any

18 involvement in the running of the Guardian Newspapers Limited?

19 A. There is something -- with apology to my Lord, I say that in

20 my country the President appoints judges, but he cannot tamper

21 with the judges' words.

22 Q. Judges do not report to the President.

23 A. I say he will appoint them, but they do not -- certainly, in

24 my case, they do not report to me in matters of content, not

25 at all.

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2 Q. It simply is not true that you have adopted a hands-off

3 attitude to your newspapers, certainly during the period in

4 which the editorial director was reporting directly to you?

5 A. Not on matters of content. Nobody has ever, ever reported to

6 me on matters of content, and, please, I want you to believe

7 that.

8 Q. Now, if we look at file 3, tab D, at page 179 -- do you have

9 179?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It should be a letter to Sakina Datoo from Mr. Nguma. Is that

12 what you have?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. This is July 2008, and it says: "IPP is pleased to offer you

15 employment as group editorial of IPP Print Media for a period

16 of two years with effect from April 2008." That is what she

17 was appointed as, is it not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It is absolute nonsense to suggest that she was recruited to

20 be the managing editor of a new Sunday newspaper?

21 A. Can I explain? It is not true. What happened, when Media

22 Solutions decided to launch a newspaper called This Day on

23 Sunday, I was directed by the Board of Media Solutions

24 Limited ----

25 Q. You were directed?

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2 A. By my Board -- I am sorry about the language -- mandated by my

3 Board. My apology for the language. I was mandated by the

4 Board to find someone who could become the editor of This Day

5 on Sunday. She reported for work, but there was an

6 infrastructure problem in setting up This Day on Sunday. But

7 that is what she came for in the first place. When we were

8 waiting for the infrastructure to be in position, Sakina came

9 to me and said, "I would like to do something to improve your

10 editorial work, on the same line as Nation Group Papers, which

11 is done very well in Kenya and Tanzania," and she was coming

12 from that organisation to Media Solutions Limited; and because

13 it is going to take some time for This Day on Sunday to take

14 off, it was her recommendation.

15 Q. Well, I have to suggest to you that that is absolute nonsense,

16 Mr. Mengi. She was recruited as editorial director for the

17 whole group, and this stuff about her being appointed for a

18 new Sunday newspaper was dreamt up as an excuse for getting

19 rid of her.

20 A. I say, my Lord, that is not true.

21 Q. She was already the managing editor of the leading Tanzanian

22 Sunday paper when you recruited her, the Sunday Citizen, was

23 she not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And she was the Chairperson of the Tanzanian Editors' Forum?



[19] (Pages 235 to 238)

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2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Which is the body that looks after the professional interests

4 in Tanzania of editors and journalists?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. She is a very well known person in the media?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. She is also a person of complete integrity, is she not?

9 A. After her letter, I doubt it.

10 Q. After her letter?

11 A. Of resignation.

12 Q. It is inconceivable that she would have accepted appointment

13 for a new Sunday newspaper that had not even appeared on the

14 streets yet?

15 A. She went to -- she go to a place, she saw greener pastures.

16 Q. The managing editor of a newspaper, such as the new Tanzanian

17 Sunday newspaper you were contemplating, would get about two

18 and a half to three million shillings a month; is that right?

19 A. I can't remember the figures, but it would be a good salary.

20 I can't remember the figures.

21 Q. That would be about it -- two and a half to three million?

22 A. I can't remember figures.

23 Q. Would that be about right?

24 A. I say I cannot remember figures.


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2 A. No.

3 Q. She was recruited at 6.2 million shillings a month?

4 A. I can't remember the figure.

5 Q. It is a cock and bull story that she was recruited to launch a

6 newspaper Sunday newspaper?

7 A. She saw a future in that paper, and, as you are saying, she

8 got a better salary.

9 Q. Let us look at her resignation letter now. We find this in

10 tab 3 again, page 196. It is in June 2009. File 3, tab D,

11 page 196. Do you have it, Mr. Mengi?

12 A. Yes, I have. Thank you.

13 Q. "May I first take this opportunity to thank you for appointing

14 me for a period of just over a year to serve IPP Media as

15 group editorial director of print media." Then she looks back

16 at the period during which she carried out that job. That is

17 what she does here, is it not? She says, if you look on

18 page 197, just below the lower punch hole, or just opposite

19 the lower punch hole we will start: "All in all, I count my

20 time at IPP as a busy but personally satisfying period when I

21 was able to achieve all these rewards, and although I was

22 bubbling with many more plans to totally revamp, modernise and

23 develop further the newspapers of the Guardian and assist in

24 the financial recovery plan too, unfortunately, our different

25 viewpoint on handling editorial content as the time moved on

[Page 237]

1 MENGI-PRICE2 put us on a collision path." That is the truth, is it not?3 A. No.4 Q. You were her boss; she was employed by IPP; you were the5 Chairman of IPP; you had recruited her; she was reporting to6 you. Why should you not take a different view from her on7 handling editorial content?8 A. I say not true.9 Q. Is she just lying now?10 A. I am not lying.11 Q. I am sorry, I am not accusing you ----12 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: No. Is she lying?13 A. I am sorry. It is not correct what she is saying.14 MR. PRICE: Is she misremembering?15 A. I don't know.16 Q. Or is she lying?17 A. All I say, it is not true.18 Q. If you look over the page on page 198, right in the middle of19 the page, do you see a paragraph that begins, "I am also well20 aware"? Do you see that paragraph, right in the middle of the21 page?22 A. Yes.23 Q. "I am also well aware of the fact that you did not like my24 constant refusal to publish front page editorials attacking25 certain personalities or refusing intervention of the managing

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2 director in editorial matters." That is the truth, is it not,

3 Mr. Mengi?

4 A. It is not true.

5 Q. Is she lying there?

6 A. I say it is not true.

7 Q. Is she lying?

8 A. Yes, she must be lying.

9 Q. Well, I put it to you that she is a lady of total integrity

10 and that she has absolutely no reason to lie in this letter,

11 that she could simply have said that she had been appointed as

12 the group editorial director, she did not want to be demoted

13 to edit your new Sunday newspaper, and she wished to leave?

14 A. That is your view, but it is not true.

15 Q. What do you think her reason for lying might be?

16 A. You had better ask her. I don't know. Most likely, most

17 likely it is because she was asked to go back to the original

18 job which I offered her. After being rejected as the group

19 managing editor, I don't think she was happy at all.

20 Q. And so she lied?

21 A. I am saying she is not happy.

22 Q. Do you know that one of your staff members, Mr. Kwayu,

23 telephoned Sakina Datoo twice?

24 A. How would I know?

25 Q. To ask her whether she was going to give evidence in this



[20] (Pages 239 to 242)

[Page 239]

1 MENGI-PRICE

2 case?

3 A. I do not know.

4 Q. Were you listening in during one or more of those

5 conversations?

6 A. Sorry?

7 Q. Were you listening in at all on a conversation between

8 Mr. Kwayu and Miss Datoo?

9 MR. RAMPTON: Had he not better be allowed to answer the first

10 question first?

11 MR. PRICE: I think he has answered it.

12 MR. RAMPTON: He said he did not know.

13 MR. PRICE: Were you listening in on any of those conversations?

14 A. I say never, and it is inconceivable.

15 Q. You have telephoned her personally, have you not?

16 A. We are good friends.

17 Q. You have telephoned her personally?

18 A. No. When she calls me -- we are good friends.

19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Wait for the question.

20 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

21 MR. PRICE: You telephoned her to ask her whether she was going to

22 be a witness in this case and saying that you did not want her

23 to talk to us.

24 A. I can't remember if I asked her that at all.

25 Q. I suggest to you that you did?

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2 A. I say I cannot remember, because we are good friends.

3 Q. I suggest that you telephoned her three times ----

4 A. I say I cannot remember.

5 Q. -- to tell her that. Well, let us suppose for a moment that

6 you did. What do you think the effect might be on Miss Datoo?

7 A. I did what? I called her?

8 Q. Asking her whether she was going to be a witness and saying

9 that you did not want her speaking to us?

10 A. I cannot speak, please, what would have happened. I wouldn't

11 have done that.

12 Q. You knew what the effect of that would be very well. You are

13 a very powerful man in Tanzania, particularly in the media

14 industry?

15 A. That is your opinion. But that does not mean that she would

16 be (inaudible). You say she is ----

17 Q. She was frightened, was she not?

18 A. Why be frightened? Why?

19 Q. She was frightened that neither she nor her husband would be

20 able to get employment again in Tanzania if she crossed you?

21 A. That is your view, but ----

22 Q. What do you say?

23 A. Nothing would have happened to her.

24 Q. Her husband is a surgeon, is he not?

25 A. Yes.

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2 Q. And he has returned, fairly recently, to Tanzania to take up a

3 hospital appointment?

4 A. I suppose, yes.

5 Q. Well, you know that?

6 A. Yes, I know that.

7 Q. And you know the finance director of the hospital?

8 A. Finance director? I know the -- I don't know whether -- I

9 know Dr. Kanaba. I don't know whether he is the finance

10 director or not, but I know Kanaba. Actually, I think Kanaba

11 is the boss of the hospital.

12 Q. You visited the hospital only two days after he started work

13 there, did you not?

14 A. I don't know when it was, but I have been to that hospital.

15 Q. You went to that hospital as soon as you learned that he was

16 working there?

17 A. I never -- please don't make accusing statements. I went to

18 hospital because I have to see a doctor. I didn't even

19 remember him by face at that time. He came to me and said --

20 he gave me his compliments. I didn't know he was there. I

21 mean, why should I?

22 Q. I suggest that you went there and spoke to him just to give a

23 little warning that she should not be coming here to give

24 evidence against you?

25 A. Please, that is a total lie.

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2 MR. RAMPTON: That is a very serious charge to make.

3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: It is a very serious charge to make,

4 Mr. Rampton. When was this incident, Mr. Price?

5 MR. PRICE: Recently, my Lord. I may be able to give

6 your Lordship a date. (Pause) I cannot give your Lordship a

7 date. We may be able to find out, my Lord. We will make

8 inquiries.


10 MR. PRICE: (To the witness) Well, I want it to be clear. What

11 I am suggesting to you is that your telephone calls to

12 Miss Datoo and your appearance at the hospital were intended

13 as a warning to her not to give evidence in this case.

14 A. I went to hospital to see a neurologist. I had an appointment

15 at the hospital. I never even knew he was there. He came and

16 said "hello" to me. I do not even remember his face at that

17 time. I would be very happy to know if you can confirm what

18 you have said.

19 Q. Well, unfortunately, Miss Datoo does not feel able to come

20 here to give evidence.

21 MR. RAMPTON: That you cannot give as evidence, I am afraid, not

22 without a witness statement.

23 MR. PRICE: It is entirely apparent.

24 (To the witness) Moving to a different topic, can I ask

25 you to go to paragraph 102 of your witness statement, which



[21] (Pages 243 to 246)

[Page 243]

1 MENGI-PRICE

2 you will find in file 2, tab 1.

3 A. A second, please. (Pause) Yes, please.

4 Q. Tab 1, paragraph 102. Do you have it? It is on page 42 of

5 your witness statement, page 42. Have you got paragraph 102?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "I would not and have never allowed my relationship with

8 Benjamin Mengi to compromise my principles and

9 responsibilities. For example, in 2005 the National

10 Environment Management Council, while under my chairmanship,

11 intervened and stopped the growing of genetically modified

12 tobacco which was being conducted by Benjamin Mengi through a

13 company called Alpha Tobacco Limited at Silverdale Farm."

14 That is the first point. The second is: "In 2007 I resigned

15 in protest as Chairman of the Investment Committee at the

16 National Investment Company after the company invested in a

17 company in which Benjamin Mengi had an interest without

18 following the proper protocols. I exhibit a copy of my letter

19 of resignation." I want to suggest to you that both of those

20 are untrue. Do you follow?

21 A. They are true.

22 Q. Can I hand to you a bundle of cross-examination material,

23 which I shall be making brief reference to? There is one for

24 my Lord and one for Mr. Rampton. (Same handed)

25 MR. RAMPTON: Yes. May I insist on the proper procedure? The

[Page 244]

1 MENGI-PRICE

2 question must be asked before the document is referred to.

3 That is the rule.

4 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Can I please have a copy? Thank you. (Same

5 Handed)

6 MR. RAMPTON: If it goes only to credit, that is the end of the

7 matter.

8 MR. PRICE: Well, the question, which I have already put to you,

9 is that it is not true that in 2005 the National Environment

10 Management Council, under your Chairmanship, stopped the

11 growing of genetically modified tobacco at Silverdale Farm;

12 that is not true?

13 A. It is true.

14 Q. Right. Can I now ask you to look at tab A. You should find

15 two documents in there. The first of them is a letter of

16 2nd September 2003. Do you have that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This is from Vector Tobacco. That was the American company

19 for whom Benjamin Mengi was growing genetically modified

20 tobacco under contract; is that right?

21 A. Let me just read this, please. (Pause)

22 Q. Have you read that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So, you see that what in fact happened was that Vector Tobacco

25 decided that it no longer wished to grow genetically modified

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2 tobacco with your brother's company on Silverdale Farm?

3 A. I tell you, I was the Chairman of the National Environment

4 Council, and we discussed this. We sent people to Moshi, and

5 then they wrote a letter; and I am hoping before the trial

6 ends we shall get a letter from the National Environment

7 Council.

8 Q. Well, the fact is that no genetically modified tobacco, or

9 indeed any tobacco, was grown on the Silverdale Farm in the

10 2003/2004 season, or after that?

11 A. You cannot convince me that. I am saying I am not mad. That

12 is what was found out by my environmental management, and

13 I will produce those records in this trial.

14 Q. Well, it may be that the National Environment Management

15 Council decided to stop the growing of genetically modified

16 tobacco?

17 A. I am saying the issue was genetically modified tobacco.

18 Q. But it had nothing to do with Silverdale Farm or your brother,

19 because they had stopped growing it two years before?

20 A. I say I will produce evidence of that.

21 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You will produce evidence of what, Mr. Mengi --

22 that genetically modified tobacco was being grown at

23 Silverdale Farm?

24 A. My Lord, the Council -- that means that there was genetically

25 modified tobacco being grown at the Silverdale Farm site, and

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1 MENGI-PRICE

2 our team went to Moshi, where the farm is, to investigate; and

3 there will be documentation to show that. A letter was

4 written to Silverdale -- I have not seen the document yet --

5 to stop the growing of genetically modified tobacco.

6 MR. PRICE: Well, you can see from these documents, if you look at

7 the second of them, the letter from Vector Tobacco to

8 Mr. Middleton is September 2003.

9 A. These letters, I don't know whether they have been cooked up

10 or not. I have to produce the letters for the ----

11 Q. Are you suggesting that Mr. Middleton has cooked these letters

12 up?

13 A. I am not saying that. I am saying I will produce

14 documentation on this matter. I will produce.

15 Q. You see, by 2004 Mr. Middleton had bought the lease on

16 Silverdale Farm from your brother, and your brother was no

17 longer involved. Is that not right?

18 A. My Lord, I have said I have never got involved in Silverdale

19 agreement. So, I don't know.

20 Q. Can you not accept that Mr. Middleton says (as he will) that

21 no genetically modified tobacco was grown on the Silverdale

22 Farm after the 2003 season?

23 A. You are assuming all staff of the Environmental Council are

24 either mad or stupid. But I say I will produce documentation.

25 Q. Documentation to prove that genetically modified tobacco was



[22] (Pages 247 to 250)

[Page 247]

1 MENGI-PRICE

2 being grown in Silverdale Farm in 2005?

3 A. I don't want to say more, but I will produce the

4 documentation.

5 MR. PRICE: Well, if I can move on then to the next one, the

6 National Investment Company. Ah, it would be a good moment to

7 move on to that at two o'clock, my Lord. Your Lordship will

8 be relieved to hear that I am getting near the end.

9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. Would you prefer that the witness should

10 leave this new bundle in the witness box or that he should

11 read it, all or part of it, during the break?

12 MR. PRICE: If he wishes to take it away with him, I would be

13 entirely happy for him to do so.

14 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Mengi, you are welcome, if you wish, to

15 have a look through this new bundle, which you have not seen.

16 You cannot discuss it with anybody else, but you are welcome

17 to look through it and refresh your memory.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, my Lord.

19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: All right. Two o'clock.

20 (Adjourned for a short time)

21 MR. PRICE: I was going to ask you about the second thing that you

22 dealt with in paragraph 102 of your witness statement; namely,

23 the National Investment company. If we can just remind

24 ourselves of what you said about that, you said that you

25 resigned in 2007 as Chairman of the Investment Committee in

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2 protest after the company invested in a company in which your

3 brother had an interest without following the proper

4 protocols. That is what you said?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Let us see what that company is. That was a public company

7 quoted on the stock exchange?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Which raised funds from the public in Tanzania for equity

10 investment in other businesses. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were the Chairman of its investment committee?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which supervised the investment of the funds?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You, in 2009, this became a matter of controversy after

17 Mr. Rostam Aziz. He is very much an enemy of yours, is he

18 not? He was one of the sharks of corruption?

19 A. I do not think of him as an enemy.

20 Q. You do not think of him as an enemy?

21 A. No.

22 Q. However, he was critical of you, as I think he said,

23 conspiring with your brother to have National Investment

24 Company funds invested in your brother's business?

25 A. I cannot remember that at all.

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1 MENGI-PRICE

2 Q. Well, that happened, I think, in May 2009. You do not

3 remember that?

4 A. As Rostam Aziz never blamed me.

5 Q. In answer to that, you produced a letter, which as I think you

6 have in this file in tab C. You produced a letter of

7 3rd August 2007. Does your Lordship have the National

8 Investment Company file that I handed up before lunch?

9 MR JUSTICE BEAN: That one, yes.

10 MR. PRICE: I am so sorry, it is a file concerning these two

11 matters, one which I have already dealt with, the National

12 Environment Management Council, and now I am on the National

13 Investment Company.

14 So in tab C, you will see a letter which you wrote to

15 the Chairman, 3rd August 2007, saying that you wished to

16 resign from the Chairmanship and membership because it had

17 invested (inaudible), not recommended by the Investment

18 Committee because the proposal was not submitted. "Intercare

19 was and is still partly owned by my brother .... (reads to the

20 words) ... such a business relationship." So that was that.

21 A. Can I explain?

22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes?

23 A. My Lord, it is true that the company decided to invest in my

24 brother's company, but the investment proposal was not

25 (inaudible) to the committee, if there was a committee of

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2 which I was chairperson. There could be some problem with the

3 date, a misprint or whatever, but I want to tell the flow of

4 what happened.

5 As the proposal did not come to the Investment Committee

6 of the NICOL, I protested. I thought it was not ethical.

7 They had acquired shares without being vetted by the

8 committee. I resigned. I wrote a letter of resignation.

9 However, when we went to the ordinary people in Tanzania

10 from one side of the country to the other, I was one of the

11 people who was championing to mobilise Tanzanians for the

12 first time to raise money to invest in the initial company.

13 So people came to this company, to show the trust they

14 had in me. When I decided to resign from the Investment

15 Committee, I had a lot of outcry from the people I had made to

16 invest in this company. Therefore, I spoke to the other

17 directors and they agreed that they will withdraw from that

18 investment, which I was protesting. Then, upon which, I said

19 with more time, they gave me time.

20 In the end we compromised. I said, "I will stay on, not

21 as Investment Committee member or Chairman. I will take up

22 what position to oversee this change." However, then the

23 change never came and I had to leave the Board altogether.

24 That is what happened. So you can see from this report,

25 I moved from the Investment Committee, I became a Board



[23] (Pages 251 to 254)

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1 MENGI-PRICE

2 member. During that time they could not withdraw from that

3 investment, so I did quit and, basically, on ethical reasons.

4 Thank you, my Lord.

5 Q. So it is a little more complicated than it appears in your

6 witness statement, Mr. Mengi?

7 A. I do not know what I said, if it was supposed to be brief or

8 if I was supposed to explain.

9 Q. This investment was a very big one, was it not? It was one

10 and a half billion Tanzanian shillings?

11 A. Yes, and I opposed it.

12 Q. To acquire 51% of your brother's company?

13 A. Not only that, I found out they were trying to pay him when

14 the company was not liquid. That is why I had to quit the

15 Board.

16 Q. It was quite open, was it not? If you look at tab B in your

17 file, you have there the annual report for 2006 of the

18 National Investment Company and that quite openly refers to

19 the acquisition of 51% of Intercare?

20 A. That was report, that is not 2007, that is a 2006 report.

21 Q. Yes. This is the 2006 report which was signed, as one can see

22 from page 24 of it, in April 2007?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It shows, we can see this on page 12 in the Chairman's

25 statement, the acquisition of a majority shareholding in

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2 Intercare, the second largest pharmaceutical company in

3 Tanzania?

4 A. That is why I protested.

5 Q. So you knew at that stage that this investment had been made?

6 A. Yes, all the time I was told that they were going to reverse

7 the deal because I want them to get out of the company.

8 Q. Well, then we have seen your letter, which is dated

9 August 2007. Just look at tab D then. We see a prospectus.

10 A. I said, my Lord, that there could be a problem with the date,

11 but a problem with the what happened.

12 Q. Just look at tab D; do you see the prospectus there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which is dated 6th October 2007?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Which is only two months after you had written that letter of

17 resignation?

18 A. I said there could be a problem with the date, 2007, which I

19 am saying I will have to check, but that will be ----

20 Q. Sorry, a problem with what date?

21 A. On my letter.

22 Q. So your letter may be wrongly dated?

23 A. I am saying there could be a problem with the date, which I

24 will be able to check.

25 Q. There is a problem with the date, is there not, Mr. Mengi?

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2 A. I see there is, yes.

3 Q. Because prospectuses are documents which the directors take

4 the greater possible care about because they take personal

5 responsibility for it, do they not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. One sees here that, if one looks at page iv, very near the

8 front, this is an important prospectus because it is for the

9 issue of 50 million ordinary shares of 125 shillings each at a

10 price of 300 shillings a share, so it is raising a

11 considerable amount of money?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. We see on xii, near the bottom of the page, about ten lines up

14 from the bottom of the page, that the Chairman says that NICOL

15 was able to take 51% of Intercare.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If we look on page 6, near the bottom of the page, the members

18 of the Investment Committee are as follows: Mr. Reginald

19 Abraham Mengi, Chairman. So at this time you were still the

20 chairman of the Investment Committee?

21 A. I said I resigned on finding out that the Board had taken the

22 decision without getting green light from my committee. I

23 said there could be a problem with the date.

24 Q. When do you think you resigned?

25 A. That date could read, I resigned from Investment Committee,

[Page 254]

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2 but I said I stayed on to see the transition be effected

3 because I had a responsibility to the people who had invested

4 in this company, trust in me and I wanted to see things

5 change. The company, unfortunately, ended up with no money to

6 it and they made a meal of it and that is not something I am

7 proud of.

8 Q. If we look at page 20, at the bottom of the page, do you have

9 page 20?

10 A. On the corner?

11 Q. It is right at the bottom of the page. It is surrounded by a

12 little green dot, page 20.

13 A. This auditor's report? Is that the auditors' report.

14 Q. You should still be in tab D.

15 A. I am sorry, I was in tab ----

16 Q. You are looking at the prospectus.

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. If you look at page 20 of that, there is a little green dot at

19 the bottom with a circle with 20 in it. Have you got page 20?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Bottom of the page, "Investment in Intercare .... (reads to

22 the words) ... at a cost of 2.5 billion shillings." I think

23 that was because some further investment was required. We are

24 talk about a million pounds?

25 A. Yes, and I say, my Lord, I was and I am not proud of this



[24] (Pages 255 to 258)

[Page 255]

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2 company. They made a meal of it. As I said earlier, they

3 have been paying my young brother money when they had borrowed

4 money (inaudible) Bank and I have found that out and I

5 resented it. I am not proud of it. They went against the

6 basic ethics.

7 Q. Well, over the page, page 21, using a discounted cash flow

8 valuation and appraisal approach based on the company's

9 historical finance and performance, NICOL's investment

10 advisor's view was that the offer price was over-stated and

11 they paid too much?

12 A. I agree. I know. The company was badly run and I am not

13 proud, I was not proud of it.

14 Q. Then if you look in the next paragraph, just above the top

15 punch hole, it is also worth mentioning that although one of

16 the original shareholders was related to one member of the

17 Investment Committee, NICOL would like to confirm that the

18 agreement was signed at arm's length?

19 A. That one I cannot comment, but the whole process was

20 unethical.

21 Q. You say that you were never consulted about this?

22 A. I was never consulted. That is why I resigned.

23 Q. The question is whether you did resign, Mr. Mengi, because as

24 you have already indicated, there is something wrong about

25 your letter; at least the date of it?

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2 A. I am saying it follows, my Lord. I was not happy with the

3 transaction. I resigned as the Investment Committee

4 chairperson.

5 Q. Let us see whether you did. Go to the next tab.

6 A. Let me just finish then, please. However, then many people

7 had invested in this company on my recommendation and

8 (inaudible) directors and they said they would pull out of

9 this deal. I believed they would, but they did not

10 (inaudible) because the deal, in my opinion, was not ethical.

11 I saw a conflict of interests because of my brother's interest

12 in the company.

13 Q. So is your evidence to my Lord now that you did not, in the

14 end, resign from NICOL?

15 A. Please, I can give you a telephone number, NICOL now, check

16 whether I am a director and I will be very ready to ----

17 Q. You are no longer a director because the company is in serious

18 trouble and has been delisted, has it not?

19 A. Yes, but you have to check on the latest accounts with the

20 directors whether I was a director.

21 Q. Let us just follow it through. We have seen that you were

22 still the chairman of the Investment Committee in October

23 2007, when this prospectus was issued?

24 A. I say there is a problem with the date.

25 Q. Yes, there is. If we go to the next tab, at tab E, do you see

[Page 257]

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2 here is the annual report for 2007 and you can see from page

3 22 that these accounts were signed in July 2008?

4 A. Yes, I said ----

5 Q. That is over a year after the date of ----

6 A. Yes, I said there is a problem with the date.

7 Q. It is a major problem with the date because we are now a year

8 after it and you are still the chairman of the Investment

9 Committee?

10 A. No, I resigned from the chairmanship of the company. If you

11 look towards the end you will find that there was a list of

12 directors. I was one of them, but I was no longer mentioned

13 in the committee because I had already resigned.

14 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I am sorry, Mr. Mengi, I am not clear about

15 this. When do you say you resigned as chairman of the

16 Investment Committee of NICOL?

17 A. I think, my Lord, because the date, I think 2008. That is

18 why, but there is a problem with the date, but I cannot

19 confirm until I check with the documents which are available.

20 MR. PRICE: Well, can I remind you that in your witness statement

21 you said, "In 2007, I resigned in protest after the company

22 invested in my brother's company."

23 A. That is very true. That is very true. I am saying there

24 could be something wrong with the date. I have to go back and

25 check that date.

[Page 258]

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2 Q. What you are saying now is that you did not resign in protest

3 because some people urged you not to?

4 A. No, not at all. Not at all.

5 Q. Just so ----

6 A. The people came after I said I was going to resign, not

7 before.

8 Q. You see, what we are looking at now is the 2007 annual report

9 and I have already shown you on page 22 that these accounts

10 were signed in July 2008?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That is over a year after your letter and about two years

13 after the investment in your brother's company?

14 A. Can I say again, I said I protested because the Investment

15 Committee was not consulted, at least as a chairperson.

16 Sometimes I think I do not know whether this deal was a clean

17 deal; otherwise I would have been consulted.

18 Q. Look at page 6 of this document. Inconveniently, it has not

19 got a number, but it is in between pages 5 and 7.

20 A. Which?

21 Q. You are still in tab E, I hope. It is the 2007 annual report

22 signed in July 2008.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If you go to page 6, you will see the picture of you.

25 A. Yes.



[25] (Pages 259 to 262)

[9]

1 MENGI-PRICE2 Q. You are the chairman of the Investment Committee?3 A. Yes.4 Q. You see that in green, it is underneath your photograph,5 "Mr. Reginald Mengi, Chairman."6 A. Yes.7 Q. That is over a year after your letter of resignation?8 A. I say there is something wrong with the date.9 Q. There is something very substantially wrong with the date.10 Let us look at the 2008 annual report, which is at tab F. Now11 these reports, as you see from page 9, were signed in12 March 2009?13 A. Yes.14 Q. If you look at page 2, directors who served the company for15 the year 2008, Mr. Reginald Mengi?16 A. I said there I was no longer shown as Investment Committee17 Chairman. I said I am on the Board to ensure that they18 reverse the transaction.19 Q. It was not exactly reversed because if you look at page 18 of20 this.21 A. That is why I left. That is why I left.22 Q. When did you leave?23 A. I left -- there is a document which I have to produce because24 what happened is I keep on saying again, when the deal was25 entered into, I was not consulted as chairman of the

[Page 260]

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2 Investment Committee.

3 Q. Sorry, the question is quite simple: when did you leave?

4 A. I have to check my records, but it is after.

5 Q. It is after 2008?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Look at page 18, note 4, "Long-Term investments"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The fourth of them is investments in IPL Pharmaceuticals,

10 1.7 billion Tanzanian shillings?

11 A. I have said over and over again, I stayed on as director to

12 ensure that the Board had actually reversed the investment.

13 It is when they refused to withdraw I moved on.

14 Q. Well, it did not arise because, look, it says "less provision"

15 and a provision is made in the accounts for the whole of the

16 acquisition cost of this pharmaceutical company?

17 A. I say that is how I moved out.

18 Q. If you look at the bottom of the page ----

19 A. They did not reverse the deal, as they promised. I moved out

20 of the Board in protest because I had been told and assured

21 that the deal would be reversed, but it is when it was not

22 reversed I moved out.

23 Q. Just look at the note at the bottom of the page, note B. Do

24 you see that IFL Pharmaceuticals, or IPL Pharmaceuticals, has

25 been placed under receivership. 100% provision has been made

[Page 261]

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2 on that investment.

3 Q. Yes, I said I am not proud of that investment and it was

4 messed up management, but I tried to save it through

5 withdrawal of this investment in my brother's firm and they

6 did not do that. That was my whole intention.

7 Q. So I simply put to you that what you say in your witness

8 statement, that is in 2007 you resigned in protest, is simply

9 not true?

10 A. I am saying the date is mixed up and I agree with you that

11 date should not be 2007 and I have to check on records for the

12 right dates.

13 Q. You did not leave until after your brother's company had gone

14 bust and had had to be written off in the company's books?

15 A. I was still having hope that NICOL pull out.

16 MR. RAMPTON: Can I intervene and ask a question to your Lordship?

17 Why were these documents were never disclosed? They are

18 produced out of Mr. Price's back pocket in court this morning.

19 Why? This has been an issue since this witness statement was

20 served and the exhibit with it.

21 MR. PRICE: As these are documents for use in cross-examination

22 and, speaking for myself, I first was able to look at them

23 last night.

24 MR. RAMPTON: They plainly go to an issue in the case which is the

25 closeness or otherwise of Mr. Mengi's relationship with his

[Page 262]

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2 brother. That is why there is that paragraph in his witness

3 statement. I ask the question again, why these documents were

4 not disclosed before. It is not fair to us and it is not fair

5 to Mr. Mengi. All this hoo-ha could have been avoided if he

6 had had a proper chance to investigate ----

7 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Rampton, if you want to make any more

8 submissions on this, I think the witness better leave the

9 court.

10 MR. RAMPTON: No, I have said what I want to say.

11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Right. Carry on, Mr. Price.

12 MR. PRICE: Finally, everybody will heave a sigh of relief, can I

13 ask you this: you have produced a long witness statement,

14 understandably, in this case, which you signed on the

15 24th September 2012?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I do not want to ask you anything, as I am not allowed to,

18 about the process of taking that witness statement, but I want

19 to ask you who took it?

20 A. My lawyers in Dar es Salaam.

21 Q. Who?

22 A. One of them, Sylvia, Sylvia Mushi.

23 Q. Which company?

24 A. IPP. Sylvia, IPP.

25 Q. One of Mr. Nguma's staff?



[26] (Pages 263 to 266)

[3]

1 MENGI-PRICE2 A. One of my staff, yes.3 Q. Under Mr. Nguma?4 A. One of my staff.5 Q. Did she take all these witness statements?6 A. Well, she took what I told her because it was my statement.7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

[Page 264]

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2 RE-EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON

3 Q. The question was not put to you, Mr. Mengi -- could you just

4 turn back. While you have got this so called

5 cross-examination file open in front of you, could you just

6 turn back, please, to tab C? The thing was left in the air;

7 there is no actual suggestion put to you except that you did

8 not resign in August 2007 from this NICOL organisation. That

9 is a letter -- have you got that? That is your letter of the

10 3rd August 2007; a letter which expresses, at any rate, a wish

11 to resign. Is it a recent forgery?

12 A. This letter?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. It is not a forgery.

15 Q. No. So far as you are aware, you signed it?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. It has your signature at the bottom?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did it have that date on it when you wrote it?

20 A. The date here?

21 Q. Yes, was that date, 3rd August 2007, on it when you wrote it?

22 A. I cannot remember, but this is why I did not, got confused

23 with the date.

24 Q. Its terms are, if I may say so, unequivocal. Did you mean

25 what you said in this letter?

[Page 265]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 A. I said, "I would like to inform you that...."

3 Q. The English is clear, we can read it. Did you mean what you

4 said when you wrote this letter?

5 A. Very much so.

6 Q. Do you know what the explanation is, why your name appears as

7 a member or a chair of the Investment Committee in subsequent

8 use?

9 A. That I do not know at all.

10 Q. Right, thank you very much. If we may go back a bit to some

11 matters which are perhaps a little closer to the heart of this

12 case, Mr. Mengi?

13 I would like to go back to one question which arose on

14 the first morning of your cross-examination and it is this:

15 you were asked how often Mr. Nguma used the conference room

16 which comes between your office and his in a building where

17 the IPP offices are in Dar es Salaam.

18 Your response was you were too busy to know. "I am too

19 busy to know." Can I ask you this: how busy are you? How do

20 you occupy your day?

21 A. As I say, my Lord, most of my time now is spent on community

22 work. My country is faced with many problems and I thought

23 one way to payback is to get involved in projects relating to

24 education. I build schools, I finance schools. I finance

25 projects to emancipate or to alleviate poverty by people, but

[Page 266]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 not just money, my time because it is easy to give money, if

3 you have got it, but sometimes money is given and it ends up

4 in the wrong hands and does not go out to the projects, so I

5 have to get involved to talk to the people, to talk to women,

6 poor women, and show them the way.

7 However, it is very time-consuming. I spend my time

8 with HIV positive people to give them hope. I eat with them,

9 I talk to them. Money will not achieve what I can do, say

10 with them.

11 I say in my statement that have lunch once a year for

12 the last 18 years with 5,000, 6,000 people, the blind, the

13 deaf, albinos. I stay with them, spend my time, the whole

14 day, sometimes a week, to make them feel that they are also

15 people, human being in the society. It is not just money, it

16 is just my company to show them they can live as human being.

17 Some people do not see how I sit down with the dirty,

18 disabled people, eat with them, talk to them, so I find

19 sometimes my involvement, physical involvement, is much more

20 than the money I give, in terms of making them feel like human

21 beings.

22 I spend my time with albinos. They get killed in

23 Tanzania, like animals. People chop off their hands because

24 they think the hand of an albino will bring them wealth, but

25 someone has to fight for them. I fight for albinos surviving



[27] (Pages 267 to 270)

[Page 267]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 in Tanzania, alongside my colleagues in Canada (inaudible).

3 That one I do.

4 I spend time on environment. There is chopping of trees

5 every where in Tanzania. I had a personal program in

6 Tanzania, in Kilimanjaro ----

7 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You are dropping your voice, Mr. Mengi.

8 Counsel have to hear what you are saying.

9 A. I am sorry. Yes, I have a programme in Tanzania to plant

10 trees in Tanzania, in Kilimanjaro. The mountain was becoming

11 naked. Under my programme, I planted 24 million trees, but

12 you cannot just give money and say, "Plant trees". You have

13 to go to schools, make sure that the kids know about nurseries

14 and encourage schools to have nurseries which we send to the

15 people to plant, but Kilimanjaro is green again but that is

16 one man effort.

17 So, my Lord, it is not just giving money away, it is a

18 question of being involved with these people, people who have

19 no hope in life. I spend time with women with fistula.

20 Fistula is a disease which people do not seem to care about,

21 but women with that disease feel ashamed of themselves. They

22 spend all their time indoors because they cannot get out of

23 their homes, but somebody has to be there; not money, but

24 physically.

25 So on and so on, my Lord. These people, it is not about

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2 money, it is about my time and, as I said earlier, which did

3 not seem okay with some people, I delegate fully whenever -- I

4 do the (inaudible) delegation, but I delegate to people who

5 can carry out my businesses and they have not let me down, but

6 they release me to have time to spend with these poor people.

7 I spend my time, mobilised effort to feed the school

8 children. Children, they do not have enough food in the

9 morning, so they do not go to school because they are too

10 hungry, but I make sure that we mobilise food for the school

11 kids. They can eat, they can go to school.

12 That has approved attendance at school. That has made

13 children want to go to school because at least they can eat

14 something at school. That requires time to explain to people

15 why food for these children is important.

16 So I find happiness in what I am doing. God blessed me

17 with money. I want to use that money to help my people. So

18 at the moment, if you were to ask me what is important to me,

19 it is not of the money because God has blessed me with money.

20 It is to use that money to help my poor people be able to live

21 a decent life.

22 To me, I do not intend to look at the money I leave

23 behind or the wealth I leave behind. People do not believe,

24 people remember me with the money I made; they will remember

25 me with what I did with that money. Some people may think I

[Page 269]

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2 am crazy, why should I spend so much money. It is not because

3 I have money to throw away, it is because I believe I came to

4 this life empty-handed and I will leave this life

5 empty-handed.

6 So it is a question of belief that the money I have was

7 not destined just for me and my family, but it is a way to

8 send it to the people, to the needy. So people may laugh at

9 me, "Why do you not spend more time on your business? Why do

10 you delegate so much?" My Lord, I delegate because I want to

11 do, to bring a change to my people.

12 I fight corruption. This is a very risky thing,

13 my Lord, to fight corruption in some of these countries. You

14 stand a chance of being killed. You stand a chance of being

15 looked at as an outcast when they talk of the rich people.

16 I have had my house on fire under suspicious

17 circumstances, but that does not deter me from moving on. My

18 son, three years ago, before he left for India, they wanted to

19 plant on him drugs. So he could end up in India and be

20 arrested ----

21 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Mengi, I have allowed you to give a very

22 long answer to one question from your counsel. That is quite

23 all right, but I think we are now going a bit off the point.

24 MR. RAMPTON: Yes, my Lord, I was leaving it to your Lordship how

25 much you wanted to hear of that answer. It is a long answer

[0]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 because there is a lot in it.

3 Mr. Mengi, you mentioned in the course of that answer

4 the fight against corruption and this morning you were

5 cross-examined by the press conference you gave that was

6 actually put into the form of a tape and transmitted on ITV by

7 special request and you paid for it. Yes?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. I am not interested in that in the slightest. What I would

10 like to know is when did you start your crusade against

11 corruption in Tanzania -- a big way, I mean?

12 A. In a big way? Well, I have been fighting corruption for a

13 long, long time, but in a big way I would say after the second

14 phase, third phase Government, that was just before the year

15 1990, the 1990s.

16 Q. When did you make the decision to go public, as you did on, I

17 think it was 23rd April 2009? When did you make the decision

18 to go public in this big way?

19 A. My Lord, I had been going public rallies, public meetings and

20 at this time when I went public, I was frustrated. I was

21 frustrated, my Lord, because politicians, even then my

22 President, was talking about corruption. They would take

23 steps, take steps, but never took steps. That is why, what I

24 was pressing for, is that I would like, I wanted them to take

25 action against corrupt people. That is what pushed me,



[28] (Pages 271 to 274)

[Page 271]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 my Lord.

3 Q. Mr. Mengi, you obviously are, as you just explained to his

4 Lordship, a very busy man. You have some media interest. I

5 have two questions about your media interest. They are

6 related in some way, but not very closely. The first is how

7 much time do you actually spend on your newspaper and

8 television companies?

9 A. I have delegated almost totally.

10 Q. Pardon?

11 A. I have delegated.

12 Q. Totally?

13 A. Totally.

14 Q. You are a director, I think, of ITV, are you not?

15 A. Yes, my Lord, I am.

16 Q. How often do you have board meetings?

17 A. Sometimes it may be just say an hour or so, but normally about

18 four times a year.

19 Q. About four times a year. You are not a director of the

20 Guardian at all, are you?

21 A. I am not.

22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: How long has that been the case?

23 MR. RAMPTON: He never has been, my Lord.

24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You never have been?

25 A. I never have been. I just launch it, my Lord, and leave it be

[Page 272]

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2 run by professionals.

3 MR. RAMPTON: I should know the answer to this, my Lord, but I

4 will ask it anyway: who are the directors of IPP Ltd?

5 A. IPP, Mrs Mengi, my daughter and I.

6 Q. Yes. How often do you meet as a Board of Directors?

7 A. Normally about three or four times a year.

8 Q. Yes, thank you. The related questions, there are two related

9 questions: you have a press secretary?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. He is called Abdul Njobo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you get out the file which has got "2" on it, please?

14 Turn to paragraph 54. It is your witness statement, the first

15 document in that file. Paragraph 54, the file number I know

16 not, but internal page 25 of the document. Do you have

17 paragraph 54?

18 A. 54? I am sorry, yes.

19 Q. You have written or, rather, somebody on your behalf: "I do

20 not communicate with .... (reads to the words) ... about my

21 activities...." Do you have it? 54, at the bottom of

22 page ----

23 A. Paragraph or the page, please.

24 Q. The internal page at the bottom is 25. I have 214 written in

25 handwriting at the bottom of mine, but I think that is wrong.

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2 MR. PRICE: It is page 25 of the bundle.

3 MR. RAMPTON: Page 25 of the bundle, yes. It is the first

4 document in the bundle and that is what you would expect.

5 Page 25.

6 A. Yes, thank you.

7 Q. Bottom of the page, paragraph 54. This is your statement,

8 your evidence: "I do not communicate .... (reads to the

9 words) ... which he or she thinks are newsworthy." The "he or

10 she" in that sentence is the press secretary. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that true, Mr. Mengi? Does your press secretary tell other

13 people besides the IPP media about what you are going to do?

14 A. Yes, they tell other media, yes.

15 Q. Or what you have done. To try and get publicity for those

16 events, those speeches by you?

17 A. I do not tell him to get publicity. I give him my, I tell him

18 my problem and he decides.

19 Q. We will finish the end of the paragraph: "No media is singled

20 out .... (reads to the words) ... since 1998."

21 A. Yes, my Lord.

22 Q. So he was the press secretary during the Silverdale dispute

23 time and all that kind of thing?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How often do you see him?

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2 A. As I said, that was his sphere and sometimes in the month I

3 see him once or twice or sometimes not at all.

4 Q. Yes, depends on what is going on. Who makes the approach?

5 Does he approach you or do you summon him?

6 A. Normally he calls me and asks me, "Do you have any public

7 engagement?" I say yes and he wants to know the details.

8 Q. During the course of the Silverdale Farm incident, during

9 2005, 2006, 2007, do you remember whether you discussed that

10 topic with him?

11 A. No, I do not.

12 Q. You told Mr. Price earlier today that you actually were not

13 much interested in the Silverdale Farm dispute. Do you

14 remember saying that?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Coming back to the heart of the matter, which was the meeting

17 on 13th December, very shortly, in a moment, but what I want

18 to ask you is this -- could you put that file away, please,

19 Mr. Mengi and get out the one marked, I think it is, is it

20 file 2 or 3. The one marked 3.

21 I have to say, Mr. Mengi, I am not sure about you, but I

22 am not entirely clear what the allegation about these articles

23 is. It is perhaps something like this: your newspapers made

24 a policy of -- prompted by your brother, Ben, and assisted by

25 you, made a policy of publishing articles about the dispute



[29] (Pages 275 to 278)

[Page 275]

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2 that were damaging and adverse and unfair to the Middleton's.

3 Is that how you took it?

4 A. Never.

5 Q. What I want to know is among these articles -- I am afraid we

6 will just have to look at them briefly as we go through

7 because these are the articles which the defendant says

8 constituted the campaign of defamation against them in your

9 newspapers. I want to ask you, in each case, whether you read

10 it at the time and, if so, with what kind of care. Can I,

11 first of all, the first one on the list -- these are all,

12 my Lord, taken from paragraph 6-11 of the amended defence.

13 This is page 6. These are the articles that are alleged

14 to constitute the campaign by Mr. Mengi against the

15 Middleton's. This Mr. Mengi, I mean.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The first one is on page 6. That is an article . Just glance

18 at it. Do you think you read this at the time?

19 A. No, my Lord. I said sometimes I do not read all the papers.

20 Even every week or two, I do not read the papers. Whenever I

21 have free time, there are newspapers I read, but not all of

22 them.

23 Q. Perhaps I can ask you general question? We will go through

24 these very quickly and we have to do that, I am afraid, if you

25 are supposed to be taking a malign interest in this campaign.

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2 How much time do you take to read your newspapers, in a

3 general sense, in the course of an ordinary day?

4 A. Sometimes I read just headline and possibly I may spend half

5 an hour, but I have to look through -- in the morning, about

6 ten papers come in my house and there is no way I can read all

7 of them and I just look through and if there is something of

8 interest, I read.

9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I do not think anybody has asked you, or if

10 they have I have forgotten, how many newspapers are within

11 your ownership? Can you just list them?

12 A. Yes, list them?

13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Well, just tell me and I will write them down?

14 A. The Guardian, Nipashe, Sema Usikike, Taifa Letu, This Day,

15 (inaudible).

16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Six?

17 A. Six, yes, my Lord. No, eight because there is Nipashe on

18 Sunday and the Guardian on Sunday, but they have different

19 editors.

20 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Six on week days?

21 A. Yes, my Lord.

22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, thank you very much.

23 MR. RAMPTON: What about other people's newspapers? Do you have

24 time to read those as well or not?

25 A. I must admit, it may sound very funny, my Lord, I do not take

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2 much time to read papers. I just do not have the time.

3 Q. Counting both Swahili and English language newspapers, and

4 excluding your newspapers, I think there are at least 10 daily

5 newspapers in Tanzania, are there not?

6 A. Yes, what are called mainstream newspapers, I think there is

7 The Guardian, The Daily News, (which is government), The

8 African owned by Mr. Aziz.

9 Q. The Daily News is government?

10 A. It is government, yes.

11 Q. Then The Citizen is owned by the Aga Khan, I think?

12 A. Yes, my Lord.

13 Q. My question is really this, Mr. Mengi, are you or are you not

14 an avid reader of newspapers?

15 A. What?

16 Q. An avid reader of newspapers, a keen reader of newspapers?

17 A. No, not at all.

18 Q. We will just go back, if we may, to this final three and we

19 will flick through it, if you do not mind. At page 19, sorry,

20 that is the date of the article, on page 8, there is an

21 article from the The Guardian dated 19th January 2006. There

22 is a transcript of it on the next page. Never mind that, just

23 have a look at that article and tell me whether you remember

24 whether you read that or not, at the time?

25 A. I cannot remember if I read the article, my Lord.

[Page 278]

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2 Q. No. The next one is an article in The African. I think the

3 next one is 2nd February, that is on page 12. This is

4 Nipashe, only, apparently.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This looks to me as it has probably taken off a website.

7 Nipashe is printed as well, is it not?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. PRICE: This is a translation.

10 MR. RAMPTON: All right, it is a translation. I do not know by

11 whom. Maybe it is one of those automatic translations. It is

12 by my clients is it? It is probably all wrong in that case.

13 Have you seen that, do you remember reading that one? I know

14 it is not in Swahili, which it should be. Do you remember it?

15 A. My Lord, as I said, I cannot remember many of these articles.

16 Q. Let me just draw your attention to them one by one and then

17 perhaps I will ask you a question at the end. Page 13 is an

18 article from The Guardian and probably The Guardian's website

19 by the look of it, headed, "Briton prevents court entourage

20 visit at farm bay 24th May 2006." Do you have any

21 recollection of that article?

22 A. No, my Lord.

23 Q. Then there is an equivalent piece on page 14 from Nipashe.

24 Then the next one, I think, is 20th July 2006. Again, in

25 Nipashe. It is page 18. Do you remember that one or not?



[30] (Pages 279 to 282)

[Page 279]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 A. My Lord, I said I cannot remember.

3 Q. Then there are some articles from some other newspapers. The

4 next article is on page 21, which is I think the 7th or 8th,

5 I know not, an article from The Guardian, accompanied by a

6 similar one on page 22 from Nipashe. We are nearly at the end

7 now. "Controversy as High resident is hurt in an assault by

8 armed gang." According to Mr. Price, this is a shocking

9 defamation of Mr. Middleton. Do you remember whether you read

10 that at the time, or not?

11 A. No, my Lord, as I said, I had no special interest to read the

12 paper; normally, I do not.

13 Q. When you were shown it under cross-examination. I think your

14 response was that you did not write it and you do not know

15 whether it is true or false because you have not investigated

16 it, is that right?

17 A. Yes, my Lord.

18 Q. But you did not see it at the time, in any event?

19 A. No, my Lord.

20 Q. The next one, many years ago now, is 11th April 2007, from The

21 Guardian, "Britons to pay 90m shillings for defamation and a

22 similar thing in Nipashe on page 25, and mention of 20m in

23 compensation. Do you remember either of those articles?

24 A. I cannot remember, my Lord.

25 Q. If you do read a newspaper during the course of your busy day,

[Page 280]

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2 would you tend to read in English or in Swahili?

3 A. Normally English and of course depending on the article which

4 I want to read, my Lord.

5 Q. Two connected questions having to do with your brother, Ben,

6 you said that when you had in the past, before the meeting

7 with the High Commissioner on 13th December, when you raised

8 the question with your brother, Ben, he was apt to fly off the

9 handle.

10 A. Sorry?

11 Q. Get very angry.

12 A. I said always he get angry with me whenever I discuss his

13 businesses. The only day he showed some positive attitude to

14 be willing to speak is when I mentioned that I had been with

15 the High Commissioner and Mr. Middleton, and His Excellency

16 the High Commissioner had proposed that we meet and I mediate.

17 That is the only time he came out positively, before then it

18 was fight, fight, fight.

19 Q. Do you believe or not, or do you know, perhaps, whether the

20 fact that on this one occasion instead of, as you put it,

21 going wild Ben actually agreed to talk to you about the thing

22 and be, at any rate on the face of it, be reasonable, do you

23 believe that that might have had something to do with the fact

24 that it involves the High Commissioner?

25 A. In a way, I do not know, maybe, it could be the visit to the

[Page 281]

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2 High Commissioner, but honestly I could not tell what made him

3 change that way.

4 Q. You will remember this morning there was some documents, and

5 I will have to find them, which seemed to have come out of a

6 meeting that you had had with Mr. Pocock's successor,

7 Mr. Parham, do you remember that this morning when you were in

8 court?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I think you were cross-examined about them. I am trying to

11 find where they are. If you give me just a moment ----

12 MR. PRICE: It is file 5.2.

13 MR. RAMPTON: Thank you very much. File 5.2, page 316. No,

14 I was thinking of something else. It is page 316, tab D.

15 I am sorry about that, Mr. Mengi. Are you now there? Do you

16 have page 316, in tab D of 5.2.

17 A. Yes, my Lord.

18 Q. Can you see that is a letter from Mr. Nguma to the British

19 High Commissioner, it is dated January 2009, and it says, "As

20 agreed at the meeting with Mr. Mengi [that is you] the

21 Executive Chairman of IPP, I am enclosing herewith notes on

22 Silverdale and on Mbono Farms." What exactly happened at that

23 meeting, do you remember?

24 A. My Lord, as I said, I am close with the British High

25 Commissioner in Tanzania and sometimes he just calls, can we

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2 have a chat, have a cup of coffee, a cup of tea or whatever,

3 and I go over and we will discuss issues normally relating to

4 business in Tanzania. Visitors come to Tanzania, who call me

5 and discuss businesses and so forth. Through that meeting

6 this cropped up. That was not the purpose of this meeting. He

7 asked me whether I could brief him on the issues of Silverdale

8 and I told him I had no clue, I was not interested. But

9 I arranged for some notes to be sent to him in writing, by

10 Nguma, "Can you produce some notes for His Excellency the High

11 Commissioner," or can you arrange for those notes to be

12 prepared. They prepared the notes, my Lord. I never saw

13 them. He forwarded them to His Excellency the High

14 Commissioner. That is what happened.

15 Q. You see behind that is a note in a different typeface, headed,

16 "Silverdale and Mbono Farms," and it runs through to

17 20-something paragraphs, as I recall. The first question is,

18 Mr. Mengi, did you ever see that note before it was sent by

19 Mr. Nguma to the High Commissioner?

20 A. My Lord, not at all.

21 Q. Did you have any input into that note before it was sent?

22 A. My Lord, nothing.

23 Q. We will ask Mr. Nguma about it in due course. I want to ask

24 you a couple of questions, if I may, about Sakina Datoo, the

25 first one is only indirectly related to her. It arises from



[31] (Pages 283 to 286)

[Page 283]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON2 some material, two documents in file 3, tab D, page 183. Do3 you have that? Do you see that it is an internal memo of The4 Guardian from the Managing Director, who is called5 Mr. Msharma; yes?6 A. Yes, my Lord.7 Q. It is addressed to Sakina Datoo.8 A. Yes, my Lord.9 Q. It is dated 16th October 2008. She is at that time working as10 the Group Editorial Director of The Guardian Limited.11 A. Yes, my Lord.12 Q. Effectively, and we need not read it again, gives her a13 dressing down or reprimand for having published any story14 which is adverse to the President.15 A. Yes, my Lord.16 Q. It says, "He has to see the copy before it is printed and it17 is the company's official policy that all editors are obliged18 to observe without fail." First of all, so far as you are19 aware, was that the company's official policy, to be kind to20 the President?21 A. There was no such policy and what they say in this letter at22 all.23 Q. When did you first see this memo?24 A. I saw it, my Lord, in these -- Today I have not seen it, I do25 not think I have read this letter.

[Page 284]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 Q. Sorry ----

3 A. I cannot have seen it before.

4 Q. You saw it perhaps in the preparation for this case?

5 A. Yes, I have not even read it now because I do not think

6 I have.

7 Q. You do not remember it from 2008?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Look over, which Mr. Price avoided doing, turn over the page

10 and see what happened next. Here we see a reaction or

11 apparently a reaction I think the next day from Mr. Nguma.

12 Now, tell me exactly what Mr. Nguma's position is. He is

13 general counsel to IPP, is that right?

14 A. He is also the Chairman of the company.

15 Q. Yes, but in his capacity as a lawyer, what role does he play

16 within the group?

17 A. Yes, within IPP he is the counsel for IPP and whenever the

18 legal department of IPP or whatever company wants a higher

19 decision, Nguma is the man.

20 Q. If he gives you advice he gives you advice in your position as

21 head of IPP, is that right?

22 A. Exactly.

23 Q. This letter comes on Guardian writing paper, it is dated 17th

24 October 2008, the day following that bad-tempered note from

25 the managing director to Sakina Datoo, and it is addressed to

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1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 the managing director. It says this: "Dear Mr. Msharma, your

3 memo to Sakina Datoo IPP Print Media Group Editorial Director,

4 I have seen your memo to Sakina Datoo ....(reads to the

5 words).... in my view," and this is what Mr. Nguma is saying,

6 in his view, "This is direct interference with editorial

7 independence and I hope you that you will not do this again in

8 the future in respect of this or any other case." From what

9 you said, may we assume that you did not see the earlier memo

10 at this time, this is Mr. Nguma acting off his own bat?

11 A. I did not, my Lord.

12 Q. No, so Mr. Nguma is not acting under your instructions when he

13 writes this?

14 A. Not at all, my Lord.

15 Q. Did what he wrote, does that fit in with your view about the

16 correct way of treating editorial independence?

17 A. Yes, my Lord.

18 Q. I want to ask you to look it up because I know you have read

19 it but this is just in passing and you have already told his

20 Lordship that you have read Mr. Kamandera's statement and as

21 far as it concerns you it is not true. There is one question

22 which arose this morning and it was put in a rather, what

23 shall I say, timid way, do you give cash bonuses to

24 journalists. The answer was, "No, I don't."

25 Do you remember what Mr. Kamendera actually says in his

[Page 286]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 witness statement? Would you like to look at it? It is in

3 file 2, tab 17; that should be Mr. Kamendera's witness

4 statement. Do you have it?

5 A. Yes, I have it.

6 Q. You should find when you get there a statement by Eric

7 Kamendera.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you turn to paragraph 10, which should be on page 291.

10 MR. PRICE: That is the summary, not the statement.

11 MR. RAMPTON: Very good. I do not have the statement. Perhaps

12 I could use the same text. Is it the same text?

13 MR. PRICE: Not all together, no.

14 MR. RAMPTON: Right. We have that now. 292C is the page number.

15 You have paragraph 10 there?

16 A. Which is summary.

17 Q. Yes. It is the next document along, because the summary has

18 been left in the file. It does not matter. There is no

19 actual copy of the witness statement there. This is something

20 for which I am afraid we are not responsible. Does your

21 Lordship have it?

22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: There was a bundle of documents handed in

23 today. I have this statement. If you are asking about

24 paragraph 10, it looks at first sight as though it has not

25 changed.



[32] (Pages 287 to 290)

[Page 287]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 MR. RAMPTON: I thought it was the same. Let me revert to what

3 you have there, Mr. Mengi, and what I have in my hand. Does

4 paragraph 10 start, "It was common knowledge."

5 A. Yes, my Lord.

6 Q. "It was common knowledge amongst journalists of the IPP

7 Guardian that the claimant could be generous if they carried

8 out his wishes. The witness understood from discussion with

9 other journalists that most editors and some reports

10 ....(reads to the words).... that the claimant kept a

11 briefcase full of cash for that purpose."

12 A. My Lord, this is as I said earlier upsetting, it is wicked lie

13 and you have to be somebody nasty to create such a story.

14 Q. Is it true or false what he has written?

15 A. It is very false.

16 Q. You will notice that he gives no source for his allegations.

17 Did you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Have you ever heard of such a rumour?

20 A. As I said, my Lord, it is ugly rumour. It is naked lies.

21 Q. I said I was going to ask you another question about Sakina

22 Datoo and I am asking this question, or perhaps more than one

23 question, as I was not quite clear what your answers were

24 this morning, or this afternoon, whenever it was. It was put

25 to you, I think, and I am going to summarise it because

[Page 288]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 I think it is fair, that you telephoned Sakina Datoo and

3 intimidated her and you threatened her, either implicitly or

4 expressly, if she gave evidence for the defendant in this

5 case.

6 A. No, not at all, my Lord.

7 Q. Since this case began, have you spoken to Sakina Datoo?

8 A. I cannot remember but, as I said, she could have called me, my

9 Lord, because we are good friends.

10 Q. Yes. Do you remain friends?

11 A. We are friends, close friends.

12 Q. Do you know where she is living at the moment?

13 A. No, my Lord. I know she is in Britain but I do not know where

14 she is.

15 Q. In Britain?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Although her husband seems to have come back to Tanzania to

18 take up an appointment as a surgeon in Dar es Salaam ----

19 A. Yes, my Lord.

20 Q. As far as you know, she is not with him?

21 A. I do not know whether they are together or not.

22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Do you know if she is in this country or is

23 that just a guess?

24 A. I know she has been here, my Lord. When she called me she

25 called me from London.

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1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 Q. When was that, roughly?

3 A. Oh, my God, it could be a month, two months ago.

4 MR. RAMPTON: It also was put to you that Mr. Kwayu, who is going

5 to give evidence in this case, made three threatening

6 telephone calls to Miss Datoo. Do you remember that question.

7 A. I remember the question.

8 Q. I think it was proposed that you were standing by when those

9 telephone calls were made.

10 A. That is a big lie, my Lord.

11 Q. Okay. In that case, that is fine. We will ask Mr. Kwayu

12 about it now that we know about it. The only one other topic

13 I want to touch briefly on is this. Do you sill have file 2

14 there? Could you turn to Mr. Pocock's statement, which is tab

15 15, I think.

16 A. Yes, my Lord.

17 Q. We have touched on this before, and almost certainly we are

18 not going through it all again, and I would not be allowed to,

19 apart from anything else. There was one question which

20 Mr. Price asked you that you ought to be allowed to deal with.

21 Do you have paragraph 8 of that statement, page 279 of the

22 file.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "Regarding the press's coverage of Mr. Middleton I cannot now

25 remember exactly what Mr. Middleton or I said but I am fairly

[Page 290]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 certain that the issue was raised that the coverage had been

3 unfair and untrue." Pausing there, you have already told his

4 Lordship that Mr. Middleton did not mention any specific

5 articles.

6 A. No, my Lord.

7 Q. Do you remember how long this conversation or this speech by

8 Mr. Middleton about the press coverage, how long it must have

9 taken?

10 A. I am sorry?

11 Q. Mr. Pocock has said that Mr. Middleton raised the question of

12 coverage of the Silverdale Farm dispute that had appeared in

13 your newspapers and I think you have confirmed that he did

14 raise it.

15 A. Yes, my Lord.

16 Q. But that he did not mention any specific articles.

17 A. No, my Lord.

18 Q. How long did this episode take?

19 A. Ery little because if I recollect correctly the focus was very

20 much on security, that was the main thing. He said he was

21 being harassed by my young brother. The others were various

22 because that was the main concern, his safety and harassment.

23 Q. Then Mr. Price read you the next few words, "I do recall

24 Mr. Mengi saying that he would look into the coverage." Your

25 answer to that was, "I don't remember."



[33] (Pages 291 to 294)

[Page 291]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 A. It is true, I cannot remember.

3 Q. What Mr. Price did not read was the next bit, "but I do not",

4 this is Mr. Pocock speaking, "but I do not myself remember any

5 undertaking from Mr. Mengi to stop his newspapers referring to

6 the Silverdale case during that meeting."

7 A. It is true.

8 Q. You have always said, and still do, that you never gave any

9 such undertaking.

10 A. Nothing, my Lord.

11 Q. Do you see a difference, Mr. Mengi, between if you did say it,

12 saying, "Oh, well, I'll have a look at it," or "I will look

13 into it," and giving an undertaking to stop the coverage?

14 A. I would never give an undertaking, my Lord, to stop the

15 coverage.

16 Q. Finally this, Mr. Price asked you repeatedly why the

17 Middletons should not be allowed to give their side of the

18 Silverdale story on Miss Hermitage's website. Do you remember

19 those questions?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Many many questions to that effect. Leaving aside the

22 question for the moment, whether or not it was published,

23 their side of that dispute, my question is this. If the

24 Middletons had confined their responses to what was in your

25 newspapers to giving their side of the Silverdale dispute and

[Page 292]

1 MENGI-RAMPTON

2 to criticise your newspapers for their coverage, would you

3 have brought this action?

4 A. I am sorry?

5 Q. I must try again. If the website coverage which Miss

6 Hermitage has devoted to the Silverdale dispute, in the course

7 of which she has made statements upon which this action is

8 founded; yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If she had confined her observations to giving the Middletons'

11 side of the dispute with your brother, the Silverdale dispute,

12 and quite possibly to complaining about the articles which had

13 appeared reporting that dispute in your newspapers, if that

14 had been her position, if that is what had appeared on the

15 website, would you have brought these proceedings?

16 A. Certainly not, my Lord.

17 Q. What if they had added, "And Mr. Mengi, the owner of these

18 newspapers, could have, if he had wished, put a stop to it."

19 A. I could not put a stop to it.

20 Q. No, I know that. We can see for ourselves what in act was

21 said so we need not go back to that, we can all read.

22 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, those are all the questions I have in

23 re-examination.

24

25

[Page 293]

1

2 QUESTIONS BY THE COURT

3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I have just two or three questions in

4 conclusion, Mr. Mengi. Earlier this afternoon you were shown

5 a memo from Mr. Msharma.

6 A. Yes, my Lord.

7 Q. To Miss Datoo, in October 2008, when Mr. Msharma was managing

8 director of The Guardian.

9 A. Yes, my Lord.

10 Q. Is he still?

11 A. Yes, my Lord.

12 Q. Thank you. The next point, your own witness statement, bundle

13 2, file 2, first statement, if you turn to paragraph 107,

14 after seeing the articles in Nipashe of November 2005 you

15 spoke to your brother and once again urged him to seek an

16 amicable solution to the dispute.

17 A. Yes, my Lord.

18 Q. Can you remember what his response to that was?

19 A. My Lord, every time I raised the issue of any of his

20 businesses he would scream at me, "This is my business. Leave

21 it alone." The only time he appeared positive to talk was

22 after the meeting with His Excellency the High Commissioner.

23 Q. Yes. So far as you can remember, did he scream at you on that

24 occasion that you mentioned in paragraph 107?

25 A. Yes, every occasion, my Lord, he would get upset.

[Page 294]

1 MENGI - THE COURT

2 Q. You did not mention that in your witness statement. I wonder

3 why not.

4 A. I am sorry, but I thought it was a detail which I could give

5 if necessary and I am sorry it is not there but that is the

6 truth, my Lord.

7 Q. Now you were asked about Miss Hermitage's letter to you of

8 25th March 2006 claiming that she had been treated unfairly in

9 the newspapers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Price was complaining, rightly or wrongly, of the fact

12 there was n o reply to that. You said that you get hundreds

13 of letters a day.

14 A. I meant, I am sorry, later on I said 20 or 30 letters a day,

15 not hundreds.

16 Q. Twenty or 30.

17 A. Yes, my Lord, not hundreds.

18 Q. On a typical day how many of those are letters of complaint

19 about coverage in your newspapers of individuals?

20 A. My Lord, letters of complaint are many. There are many and

21 I do not think a day passes without getting quite a few

22 complaints.

23 Q. Do people who write letters of complaint to you generally get

24 a reply from somebody, or not?

25 A. Normally, my Lord, I pass, as I said earlier, I am very tight



[34] (Pages 295 to 298)

[Page 295]

1 MENGI - THE COURT

2 on my time and I just mark it to whoever I think can handle

3 the correspondence but for me it will be almost impossible to

4 attend to these letters on my own.

5 Q. I was not asking whether you personally replied but so far as

6 you know do people who write in complaints generally get a

7 reply from somebody on your behalf, or generally not?

8 A. My Lord, I can assume that they get a reply but I never follow

9 up any letters.

10 Q. Thank you. The last point is this, Mr. Mengi, we have seen

11 and Mr. Price has asked you about a number of articles in the

12 newspapers which you own about your charitable activities,

13 your anti-corruption activities, and so on, and the articles

14 praise you.

15 A. Yes, my Lord.

16 Q. Can you recall any occasion when any of your newspapers have

17 criticised you?

18 A. I have to think about it, my Lord, but right now nothing comes

19 to my mind, but I am sure if I was to think -- yes, for

20 example, the one article I have seen today I did not say that,

21 that my media business is a hobby and so forth. That is not

22 true. For me it is very damaging.

23 Q. Can you think of any occasion when our newspapers have

24 criticised your brother?

25 A. I cannot, my Lord, because, as I say, I just do not read that

[Page 296]

1 MENGI - THE COURT

2 much the papers. I do not have time to look through papers.

3 The answer is no.

4 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Mengi. Mr. Price,

5 anything arising?

6 MR. PRICE: No, my Lord.

7 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Rampton, anything arising?

8 MR. RAMPTON: No, my Lord.

9 THE WITNESS: My Lord, can I say a word?


11 THE WITNESS: My Lord, I came to your country, to your courts,

12 because I felt distressed. I felt very hurt because of what

13 was being written about me by a person who lives here. The

14 reason why I feel very bitter, my Lord, is because I am being

15 made a victim of actions of other people. I am being made to

16 carry the cross on behalf of my editors. We all know that

17 I am not responsible, I am not accountable, I am not even

18 answerable for the actions of these editors. I am being made

19 to carry the cross of my young brother, called Benjamin Mangi.

20 Bear in mind that I am not his keeper. I am not responsible,

21 I am not accountable, and I am not even answerable for what he

22 has done. My brother and I are two different people who by

23 the grace of God, or could be accident, who are born of the

24 same father and mother, but I do not do what he does. It is

25 him.

[Page 297]

1 MENGI - THE COURT

2 So, the writings or the defamation is all about me. So

3 I am being made to carry the burden of the other two people,

4 lots of other people, the media, the editors, and my brother.

5 Mr. Price did say the defamation which the Middletons are

6 complaining of is more serious than my case but, my Lord, she

7 is after me for actions of other people, not my actions. But

8 on the other side I am complaining of actions which she has

9 taken against me but for her knowing that what she is writing

10 is not true, and instead of chasing the editors, chasing

11 Benjamin Mengi, I am now the victim. So, it is her who should

12 be answerable for her actions.

13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, Mr. Mengi, you are represented by a legal

14 team headed by Queens Counsel of unrivalled experience and you

15 can be absolutely sure that he will make these points on your

16 behalf.

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, my Lord.

18 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you. Thank you very much. Would you

19 like to leave the hot seat and return to the front row.

20 THE WITNESS: I am free at last, my Lord.

21 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. We will take a short break and move on

22 at 20 to 4.

23 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, I wanted to mention to your Lordship that

24 there may be a slight problem, not with the attendance of the

25 next witness, who is here, but arising from the fact that he

[Page 298]

1 MENGI - THE COURT

2 is quite seriously ill and that because of the medication he

3 has to take his voice is very faint. We have made enquiries

4 whether some kind of amplification equipment might be

5 available and I do not yet know the answer. It may be, and

6 this is a terrible thing to suggest, your Lordship may have to

7 move a bit closer to the witness box. What Mr. Price -- it is

8 not funny in the slightest -- and I may do about it, I do not

9 know.

10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. We will see how we go. I can move in

11 that direction a bit, although that will solve the problem for

12 me but it would not solve the problem for counsel.

13 MR. RAMPTON: I just give that warning.

14 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Let's see how we go. We will break off until

15 20 to 4. If you would like, while I am out, you or

16 Mr. Eardley, or somebody, to get the witness in the witness

17 box and get him to recite from the telephone directory, or

18 something, just to see whether you can hear him, of course

19 that is perfectly in order. We will resume at 20 to 4.

20 (Short adjournment)

21 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, I will call Mr. Nguma, if I may, please.


23

24

25



[35] (Pages 299 to 302)

[Page 299]

1

2 MR. AGAPITUS NGUMA, SWORN

3 EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON

4 MR. RAMPTON: Mr. Nguma, by your right hand, I think -- my eyes

5 are poor, but I think by your right hand -- on the flap of the

6 witness box, underneath your hand now, there is a file which

7 I think has got "2" on it -- just by the microphone.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It has got something on top of it, which you might want to

10 remove. I think that is an original of a document I am going

11 to ask you about. At least, I hope it is. So, just put that

12 away for the moment.

13 A. It is the advice.

14 MR. RAMPTON: I do not know what that is, that document.

15 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: That is Mr. Eardley's advice.

16 MR. RAMPTON: Well, that can be put, politely speaking, on one

17 side. Now, would you turn in that file in front of you to the

18 second divider. Yes?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you have the first page there of a statement with your name

21 on it?

22 A. This is Reginald Mengi's statement.

23 Q. The second divider, number 2.

24 A. Yes, I have got it.

25 Q. Is that the witness statement that you made for these

[Page 300]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 proceedings, Mr. Nguma?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does it accurately record your full names and your address in

5 Tanzania?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you turn to the last page of the statement, which is

8 page 101, in the bottom right-hand corner. Yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Has it got a signature on it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that your signature?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It says that you believe the facts stated in this witness

15 statement are true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that true?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Good. Thank you. I have only a few questions. You are, as

20 we can see from reading your statement, you are the General

21 Counsel of IPP Limited?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you have an office in the same building as Mr. Reginald

24 Mengi, the Chairman?

25 A. Yes.

[Page 301]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 Q. Does Mr. Reginald Mengi's press secretary also have an office

3 there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Which part of the building?

6 A. The opposite wing.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, could you take a file marked -- it is 1.2.

8 I do not know what it has got on the spine, but it is the

9 second of the two volumes 1.

10 A. The thin one?

11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Like this, 1.2.

12 MR. RAMPTON: Has it got 1.2 on the back?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please turn to page 199. It is in tab B. It is right at the

15 back. You have to go on.

16 A. Did you say D?

17 Q. D, right at the back. That is it. Now, if you go all the way

18 through. The page numbers are in the bottom right-hand

19 corner.

20 A. Which page?

21 Q. 199.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that a letter written to the managing editor of the

24 Guardian Newspaper by Sarah Louise Hermitage?

25 A. Yes.

[Page 302]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 Q. Now, my Lord, there was last week an original of that letter.

3 We were asked to produce it and it went into the witness box.

4 It was in a plastic -- oh, it is here. No, that is not the

5 original. It never came back. Could somebody very kindly see

6 whether that plastic envelope is the document I am looking

7 for? (Pause) Can you just show it to me first? Thank you

8 very much. Would you kindly give it back to the witness?

9 Thank you very much. (Same Handed) Now, if you would be good

10 enough to just slide the letter out of the plastic envelope;

11 could you do that? Perhaps you do not need to bother, but it

12 probably will help. It is a letter with a little piece of

13 card or a paper stapled to it, is it not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In faint purple ink, in the middle, which we do not have on

16 our copies, there is a "received" stamp, is there not, running

17 diagonally across?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I think it says "Received 2nd March 2006"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the left-hand side of the page there is some manuscript.

22 Taking the bottom piece of manuscript first, where it says

23 "MW, please open SH case file and file this", whose writing is

24 that? Who wrote that -- not the one on the piece of paper

25 clipped on it.



[36] (Pages 303 to 306)

[Page 303]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 A. Okay. I wrote this.

3 Q. You wrote that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who is MW?

6 A. My personal secretary.

7 Q. So, it would appear that you would have seen this at some

8 stage after it arrived on 2nd March 2006?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. As well as being General Counsel to IPP Limited, do you also

11 advise the editors and managing directors, and so on, of the

12 newspapers, as necessary?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did this letter come to you in that capacity?

15 A. This letter came to me from the managing director.

16 Q. From the managing director?

17 A. Of the Guardian.

18 Q. Do you know if Mr. Reginald Mengi ever saw it?

19 A. He did not.

20 Q. In your witness statement, you say that you gave certain

21 advice to the managing director; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. About this letter. My Lord, I take the view that what he

24 actually, as I now know, told the managing director is not

25 privileged at all, but, in any event, Mr. Nguma is able to

[Page 304]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 waive such privilege as there may be, since he is a director

3 of the company.

4 (To the witness) What advice, if advice it be called,

5 what advice did you give to the managing director of the

6 Guardian in relation to this letter?

7 A. I told him to use their complaints settlement to investigate

8 the matter; and if they did find there was some wrongdoing,

9 they should consult an external lawyer, because I had a

10 conflict of interest with the defendant in the case I was

11 doing for Benjamin Mengi.

12 Q. So, you had a conflict of interest, because this concerned the

13 Silverdale Farm dispute and you were acting for Benjamin Mengi

14 in that dispute; is that right?

15 A. Although it was not in the Silverdale case, but it was

16 connected with the Silverdale case.

17 Q. I am hoping I have got your answer right. You said, "I cannot

18 act in this, because I am acting for Mr. Mengi and I think

19 I have a conflict of interest"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you said, "Go to outside lawyers"?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I see you have written, or we think we can see your

24 instruction to your secretary: "Please open SH case file and

25 file this". Yes?

[Page 305]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. SH stands, may I assume, for Sarah Hermitage?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So, you did not have a Sarah Hermitage file before this?

6 A. The file had been open. That is why ----

7 Q. Sorry?

8 A. I said for her to open the file.

9 Q. Oh, I see. There was a file?

10 A. There would have been a file. There was a case file, my file

11 on the Silverdale case.

12 Q. Oh, your file?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I am sorry. Your file as ----

15 A. There was a file.

16 Q. Yes. But in what capacity did you keep that file: in your

17 capacity as a lawyer for IPP, or in your capacity as lawyer

18 for Mr. Benjamin Mengi?

19 A. Benjamin Mengi.

20 Q. I have it. Thank you very much. Then if you would turn over

21 just a couple of pages to page 203. Here, and on the

22 following page -- sorry, two pages, 205 -- there are two

23 letters, both signed by Mr. Middleton but, we know now,

24 written by Miss Hermitage, two letters to Mr. Mengi, with his

25 handwriting, I think it is, on the top right-hand corner.

[Page 306]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 Have you got that -- 203?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does it say, "ALN, this is a Guardian issue"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That is addressed to you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What does it mean to you when he says "this is a Guardian

9 issue"?

10 A. That it was not a matter for IPP Limited.

11 Q. For?

12 A. It was not a matter for IPP Limited. It was a Guardian issue,

13 and I should give advice as the corporate counsel for IPP

14 Limited and, I suppose, not as director for the Guardian

15 Limited.

16 Q. Then on page 205 -- sorry, before we leave 203, somebody has

17 written on the left-hand side of the page "case file". Yes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Whose writing is that?

20 A. Mine.

21 Q. Right. Then on page 205 there is another note by Mr. Mengi,

22 he told us: "ALN" -- so, that is addressed to you -- "please

23 note, this is a Guardian Limited matter." I have asked you

24 about what he meant by that, so far as you are concerned.

25 Then he tells you: "I did not give the underlined undertaking



[37] (Pages 307 to 310)

[Page 307]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 which you will see in the third paragraph"; and on the

3 left-hand side, also, "case file".

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that, again, is you, is it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your witness statement you tell us that you gave him

8 certain advice, presumably, as Chairman of IPP?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. I want to pass now, if I may, to something else. I am sorry,

11 this probably means another file. Can you put that thin file

12 away and take out file 5.2 and turn to tab D. Have you got

13 tab D?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Inside D, turn to page 316. Is that a letter from you to the

16 British High Commissioner?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Dated 26th January ----

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- 2009. It says: "Your Excellency has agreed at the meeting

21 with Mr. Reginald Mengi, Executive Chairman of IPP... (read to

22 the words)... farms." Mr. Mengi has told us how that came

23 about. I need not trouble you with that at all. What I would

24 like to ask you is to turn over the page, and you will see

25 some notes on Silverdale and Mbono Farms, running from

[Page 308]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 page 317 to 322. Yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. They are not signed by anybody. My first question, Mr. Nguma,

5 is: who wrote those notes?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. You did?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On the basis of what information?

10 A. Benjamin Mengi's information.

11 Q. You wrote it out, typed it out, got it typed out?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And gave it to the High Commissioner?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you ever show it to Mr. Reginald Mengi?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you tell him that you had done it?

18 A. I didn't.

19 Q. Thank you. Only one more thing now. I am afraid it means

20 another file, Mr. Nguma. If you would not mind kindly putting

21 that one away and retrieve file 3, please, and turn to tab D

22 again. I preface this by saying that in your witness

23 statement you have given us a good deal of information -- do

24 you remember Sakina Datoo?

25 A. Yes.

[Page 309]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 Q. You have given us a good deal of information about her, how

3 she came to the company, how she left, and so on. I am not

4 going to ask you any questions about that at all. Mr. Price

5 can, if he wishes to do so. Can you please turn to page 183?

6 Have you got it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it a memorandum, an internal memo from the managing

9 director, Mr. Msharma, to Sakina Datoo?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. We read it this morning. Were you in court when I read it

12 out?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you remember it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It is your response which I am interested in, which is on the

17 next page, page 184, the day following. Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Again, I read that out this morning. It is, in effect, is it

20 not -- I am sure I will not be criticised for leading in this

21 way -- it is a rocket to Mr. Msharma?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What we used to call a sort of blowing up?

24 A. Sorry?

25 Q. A blowing up, a reprimand. A reprimand?

[Page 310]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 A. Yes, it is a reprimand.

3 Q. A ticking off?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. My first question is: how did you come to hear or know about

6 what Mr. Msharma had written to Sakina Datoo?

7 A. The memo is copied to me.

8 Q. It is copied to you? So it was. So it was. In the light of

9 what you read, did you -- you read the memo, yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you do anything else, speak to anybody else, before

12 writing this memo that we have in front of us at page 184?

13 A. I didn't.

14 Q. In effect, you tell Mr. Msharma: "This is a direct

15 interference with editorial independence, and I hope you will

16 not do this again in the future in respect of this or any

17 other case." Why did you say that?

18 A. Because he was telling her not -- he was directing her how to

19 write news about the President.

20 Q. But why was it that you thought it necessary to reprimand him

21 for doing that?

22 A. Because ----

23 Q. Why did it matter?

24 A. Because he was interfering with the editorial independence of

25 Sakina.



[38] (Pages 311 to 314)

[Page 311]

1 NGUMA - RAMPTON

2 Q. You, being General Counsel for IPP and, I think, a director of

3 the Guardian, disapproved of that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How long have you worked with Mr. Mengi?

6 A. Upwards of 32 years.

7 Q. Were you with him at the foundation of the Guardian and

8 Nipashe and the ITV?

9 A. Yes. I founded them.

10 Q. Are you familiar with the Group's policy against editorial

11 interference?

12 A. Sorry.

13 Q. I am sorry, it is a difficult court, and I sometimes speak too

14 quickly. Are you, therefore, familiar with the Group's policy

15 against editorial interference?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Have you stuck to that all the time you have worked at the

18 Group?

19 A. Structured the policy?

20 Q. Sorry. Have you adhered to that; have you stuck to it?

21 A. Yes, throughout.

22 Q. Throughout. So far as you know, has Mr. Mengi also?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. RAMPTON: Thank you. Please remain there, Mr. Nguma.

25

[Page 312]

1 NGUMA

2 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. PRICE

3 MR. PRICE: Can I start by asking you to look at paragraph 9 of

4 your witness statement, Mr. Nguma? You will have it in

5 file 2, but you may well have it -- I think it is in front of

6 you, under file 1.2. So, put 1.2 on top of the box. That is

7 it.

8 A. Which paragraph?

9 Q. Paragraph 9. Have you got that? Now, here you are talking

10 about the way in which these companies are structured; yes?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You say, about just opposite the lower punch hole: "I made

13 sure that the constitutions of the two companies" -- that is

14 the Guardian and ITV -- "incorporated clauses which legally

15 enabled the directors of the companies to entrust their

16 managing powers to managing directors."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then you later point out that that, indeed, has happened and

19 that managing directors have been appointed to both companies?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You helpfully set out the relevant clauses of both the

22 Guardian's constitution and ITV's constitution?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Which provides, in each case, that the directors may appoint

25 one or more of their body to the office of a managing

[Page 313]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 director?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it provides that in the case of appointment of a managing

7 director, that appointment determines if he ceases to be a

8 director?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, neither of the managing directors are directors of these

11 companies, are they?

12 A. Which clause are you referring to?

13 Q. Well, look at the clause for TGL. They are both in the same

14 terms -- at the bottom of page 4 of your statement.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. "Directors may from time to time appoint one or more of their

17 body to the office of managing director...."

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "...or appoint any person or body corporate to manage the

20 company."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then, jumping to the bottom of the page: "In the case of the

23 appointment of a managing director, such appointment should be

24 subject to determination ipso facto if he ceases from any

25 course to be a director."

[Page 314]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You have appointed managing directors of both companies?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The managing director of the Guardian is not a director of the

6 Guardian?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Nor is the managing director of ITV a director of ITV?

9 A. Could you read clause 88, please?

10 Q. "The directors may entrust to and confer upon a managing

11 director or any person or any body corporate appointed to the

12 management of the company any of the powers...." So, you can

13 give any powers you like to a managing director?

14 A. Anybody.

15 Q. But if he is a managing director, he must be a director of the

16 company; and if he ceases to be, he must cease to be managing

17 director?

18 A. No. The two clauses are not complemented.

19 Q. The clause could hardly be clearer?

20 A. Clause 88, does it mention anywhere that it has got to be a

21 director?

22 Q. No, because that is in clause 87. It says: "The directors

23 may appoint any one or more of their body to be managing

24 director, and such an appointment shall be subject to

25 determination ipso facto if he ceases to be a director."



[39] (Pages 315 to 318)

[Page 315]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 A. Clause 88 says: "The directors may entrust to and confer upon

3 a managing director or any person or body corporate appointed

4 to manage the company."

5 Q. Yes. But in the case of a managing director, he has got to be

6 a director?

7 A. They may appoint any person or body corporate.

8 Q. Yes. But you have not done that; you have appointed a

9 managing director?

10 A. I don't think that is a requirement.

11 Q. All right. Well, I will not pursue it. Can I turn to the

12 letters that were written to the managing editor of the

13 Guardian by Miss Hermitage. You will find them -- we were

14 looking at them a moment ago -- they are in file 1.2, which is

15 the little one that you have open on the top, underneath the

16 one you have just put there. Tab D, at the back, and can we

17 start on page 203?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This is the same on 205. You have written "case file" at the

20 top. Which file was that?

21 A. The file I told my secretary to open.

22 Q. But you had not told her to open a file?

23 A. Sorry?

24 Q. You had not told her to open a file. You told her that in

25 May, and this is in April?

[Page 316]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, I think my learned friend is confused

3 because he has not got the original. The date stamp on the

4 original is 2nd March 2000.

5 MR. PRICE: No. I beg your pardon. My learned friend's helpful

6 intervention is wrong. Go to page 199, would you, Mr. Nguma?

7 A. 199?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What does that say at the top in Swahili, that your secretary

11 has written?

12 A. "There is already a file on Silverdale Middleton".

13 Q. Quite so.

14 A. "Should I open another?"

15 Q. And you said, "Yes, open a Sarah Hermitage case file"?

16 A. That is right.

17 Q. So when earlier, in April, you wrote "case file" on the

18 letters that we see at page 203 and 205, it was the Silverdale

19 Middleton file that you were referring to?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that was a file that you kept because you were acting for

22 Benjamin?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So, what you have written on the letters to Mr. Reginald Mengi

25 is that they are to be filed on the Benjamin Mengi file?

[Page 317]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 A. I asked her to open a Sarah Hermitage case file.

3 Q. Yes. But if you go back to page 203, you have just told me

4 and just told my Lord, that "case file" at the top, that is

5 the Silverdale Middleton file?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Which is the file that you kept because you were acting for

8 Benjamin Mengi?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So, my question to you is: it is right, is it not, that when

11 you were given these letters by Mr. Reginald Mengi, you

12 instructed that they be filed on your Benjamin Mengi file?

13 A. You are right.

14 Q. Thank you. The letter you received, the letter on page 199,

15 on 5th May 2006 or thereabouts; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But you had already seen it, this letter, because it had been

18 sent to you by Mr. Reginald Mengi in April?

19 A. This letter?

20 Q. Yes -- because if you look at page 203, Mr. Reginald Mengi

21 sent you this on 10th April; that is right, is it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And if you look down towards the bottom of the page, the last

24 full paragraph: "On 24th February my wife wrote to the

25 managing editor of the Guardian and a copy of this letter is

[Page 318]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 enclosed to you for your attention." So, you received that

3 letter in April; that is right, is it not?

4 A. Just a minute. (Pause) It was attached to the letter of

5 25th March.

6 Q. Yes. Well, I do not know whether it was attached, but it was

7 enclosed.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So, when you got this letter from the managing director of the

10 Guardian, you had already had it for a month, but you had not

11 done anything about it; that is right, is it not?

12 A. Yes, that is right.

13 Q. Go back to page 199. You can see the stamp "received

14 2nd March 2006", which you cannot see on the copy, but you can

15 see it on the original. That letter was kept by the managing

16 editor of the Guardian and/or the managing director for two

17 months before they passed it on to you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You must have been pretty cross about that, were you not,

20 Mr. Nguma?

21 A. I wasn't.

22 Q. You were not?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why not? (Pause) Is that normal practice in your business?

25 A. I don't teach them the practice. I didn't ask them why they



[40] (Pages 319 to 322)

[Page 319]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 did not send it to me earlier.

3 Q. Were you slightly surprised that they had waited two months?

4 It is an important matter, is it not?

5 A. I noticed that it was sent to me late. That, I noticed.

6 Q. But you did not say anything about that?

7 A. I didn't.

8 Q. Can you think of any reason why they might have sat on it for

9 two months?

10 A. I didn't think about that.

11 Q. Well, it might have had something to do with the fact that it

12 was all about Benjamin Mengi and he was the boss's brother,

13 might it not?

14 A. You mean that is why they delayed it?

15 Q. Well, it seems reasonable, does it not? They did not know

16 what to do with it?

17 A. I do not know. I didn't think about it that way.

18 Q. Did you notice that this letter, on page 200 -- do you see,

19 just opposite the top punch hole, page 200: "Had the reporter

20 checked his facts, he would have found that all the

21 allegations against the men were immediately ordered to be

22 dropped by the Director of Public Prosecutions"?

23 A. Which paragraph?

24 Q. The paragraph just opposite the top punch hole, on page 200.

25 Do you see, right opposite the top punch hole: "If the

[Page 320]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 reporter had checked his facts, he would have found that all

3 of the allegations against the men were immediately ordered to

4 be dropped by the Director of Public Prosecutions"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And she is complaining that that had not been reported in the

7 newspaper?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In fact, the newspaper had repeated it time and time again:

10 on 8th December, on 3rd January, 19th January. Were you at

11 all concerned about that?

12 A. (Pause) I can say one thing about this. This letter says it

13 is coming from a lay legal representative of the men. This

14 letter did not come from the man she is complaining about.

15 I had not seen any Power of Attorney or anything suggesting

16 that she has got power and she is acting for this man, and I

17 didn't pay much attention towards this lay person, this lay

18 legal representative it was talking about.

19 Q. So, is that the reason why Miss Middleton did not get a reply

20 to this letter?

21 MR. RAMPTON: Miss Hermitage.

22 MR. PRICE: I am sorry. I beg your pardon -- Mrs. Middleton,

23 Miss Hermitage. Is that the reason why she did not get a

24 reply to this letter?

25 A. I don't know. I have said what I advised the managing

[Page 321]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 director of the Guardian to do.

3 Q. Right. You advised him, did you, that this was a letter from

4 a lay representative and there was no Power of Attorney, and

5 so there was no need to do anything about it?

6 A. I didn't do that.

7 Q. Well, what is your point about this being a letter from a lay

8 representative without a Power of Attorney?

9 A. In any case, I asked them to investigate and if they found

10 wrongdoing, they should engage an external lawyer to deal with

11 the matter.

12 Q. Well, let us look at the letters to Mr. Reginald Mengi. There

13 is one on page 203 and another on page 205. You deal with

14 this in paragraph 23 of your witness statement. You say that

15 you considered the letter and gave legal advice to Reginald

16 Mengi; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you say the same thing in relation to the second letter?

19 A. I wouldn't say that I gave legal advice.

20 Q. I beg your pardon, Mr. Nguma. Would you like to look at your

21 witness statement, which, only a moment ago, you swore to be

22 true. Go to paragraph 23. Have you got your witness

23 statement there Mr. Nguma?

24 A. Just a minute.

25 Q. It is in file 2. It is at file 2 at tab 2. I am sorry, there

[Page 322]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 is a lot of confusion about files. Do you have it now?

3 A. Yes. What page is that?

4 Q. Paragraph 23 on page 11, page 94 of the bundle.

5 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: 94 overall.

6 MR. PRICE: Do you see paragraph 23?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Look at B: "As to the letter of 25th March, it was forwarded

9 to me by Mr. Mengi. I considered the letter and gave legal

10 advice to Reginald Mengi and the managing editor, privilege in

11 which is not waived."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that evidence ----

14 A. It is true. It is correct.

15 Q. It is true?

16 A. It is correct.

17 Q. Now, look over the page, or the bottom of the page, C,

18 19th April letter: "I considered the letter and gave legal

19 advice to Reginald Mengi, privilege in which is not waived."

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that true?

23 A. It is true.

24 Q. So, when you were advising Mr. Reginald Mengi, giving him

25 legal advice, you did not feel that you had a conflict of



[41] (Pages 323 to 326)

[Page 323]

1 NGUMA - PRICE2 interest; is that right?3 A. I didn't.4 Q. You did not. Is that evidence true, Mr. Nguma?5 A. It is true.6 Q. Right. But when you were giving advice to the managing7 director of the Guardian, you considered that you did have a8 conflict of interest; is that right?9 A. Yes, because I had received a letter from the defendant10 complaining to the (inaudible) Society Advocates Committee11 about me, and I was not in a position to deal with the matter.12 Q. Well, who was the complainant?13 A. The defendant.14 Q. What, Miss Hermitage complained?15 A. Yes.16 Q. To what, to the Law Society? Is that what it is called?17 A. Yes.18 Q. You just explain to my Lord, so that we can all understand it19 clearly -- because you are an intelligent man, Mr. Nguma, and20 you are a highly experienced lawyer, are you not?21 A. Yes.22 Q. How come that you have a conflict of interest when you are23 advising the managing director of the Guardian about this, but24 you do not have a conflict of interest when you are advising25 Mr. Reginald Mengi?

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2 A. When I was advising Reginald Mengi, I didn't have any conflict

3 of interest.

4 Q. Why not?

5 A. The case I was handling for Benjamin Mengi started in

6 November 2005.

7 Q. Correct.

8 A. I didn't know that Reginald Mengi was in any way involved in

9 the Silverdale dispute. I didn't even know that he had had a

10 meeting with the Middletons or Andrew Pocock, and I did not

11 know that he had made undertakings to anybody until I saw that

12 letter to him in which he had underlined that sentence that

13 I did not make any undertakings.

14 Q. Well, did you have reason to suppose that the managing

15 director of the Guardian was involved in the Silverdale Farm

16 dispute?

17 A. I didn't.

18 Q. Well then, did you or did you not have a conflict of interest

19 when advising the managing director of the Guardian?

20 A. That is when I told him that I had a conflict of interest.

21 Q. Because? Why did you have a conflict of interest?

22 A. Because I had a case -- I was handling a case for Benjamin

23 Mengi.

24 Q. Mr. Nguma, just to come back and get our feet on the ground

25 and talk some sense for a moment, you could not possibly, as

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1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 the advocate for Benjamin Mengi in a lawsuit against

3 Miss Hermitage, give advice either to the Guardian or to

4 Mr. Reginald Mengi on this subject, could you?

5 A. No, I did not know that Mr. Mengi was in any way involved.

6 Q. What you were advising him about was a letter from

7 Miss Hermitage complaining to Mr. Reginald Mengi about

8 coverage in his newspapers.

9 A. The Guardian newspapers?

10 Q. You ----

11 A. Not his newspapers.

12 Q. You gave legal advice to Reginald Mengi, privilege in which

13 you declined to waive. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Are you sure you gave legal advice to him?

16 A. I told him not to respond.

17 Q. You told him not to respond?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So you, as Mr. Benjamin Mengi's advocate, are advising his

20 brother not to reply to a letter of complaint from the person

21 that you were acting against in the lawsuit. This is the

22 gravest possible ----

23 A. Do you refer to the letters separately, please?

24 Q. Yes, you explain.

25 A. The letter of 25th March, Mr. Middleton is referring to

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2 newspapers owned by IPP Holdings Ltd.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. There is no such company and Reginald Mengi does not have any

5 interest in such a company.

6 MR. PRICE: Perhaps we had better resume tomorrow morning,

7 my Lord?

8 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, right. Mr. Nguma, we will break off there

9 and resume at 10.30 tomorrow. As I think you have already

10 heard me say to Mr. Mengi, you cannot discuss the case with

11 anybody until your evidence is completed, some time tomorrow.

12 MR. PRICE: Before your Lordship rises there is one matter, very

13 brief. It is the question of transcripts. My understanding

14 is that my learned friends have the advantage of a transcript.

15 We do not. They are not, I think, obliged to provide us with

16 one.

17 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I have said to Mr. Rampton in opening that if I

18 am to look at it, then you must have it as well. I have been

19 supplied with day one.

20 MR. RAMPTON: You have, have you?


22 MR. PRICE: What I do not want to happen, my Lord, is that we

23 should be supplied with it all on the evening before closing

24 speeches.

25 MR. RAMPTON: My learned friend need not make a song and dance



[42] (Pages 327 to 329)

[Page 327]

1 NGUMA - PRICE

2 about this; I was going to ask your Lordship whether

3 your Lordship had started getting it.


5 MR. RAMPTON: On the e-mail, it came through?

6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. Well, an e-mail came through at about

7 9.30 this morning and when I arrived in court, there was a

8 hard copy on my desk. I assumed, it turns out wrongly, that

9 each side would have a hard copy.

10 MR. RAMPTON: No, I was going to ask that because I do not think

11 the other side have them yet. We, obviously, have to make a

12 decision -- I personally speaking obviously far prefer

13 everybody has it. It makes all our lives much easier, but of

14 course I need instructions about that because it costs money.

15 I do not suppose for a moment there will be a problem.

16 Can I just leave it for the moment. May we send an e-mail to

17 the other side and to your Lordship, perhaps, tonight with a

18 decision on that?

19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Well, I have already had it and looked at it,

20 Mr. Rampton. I cannot say that I have taken in very much, but

21 I am not going to look at it for a moment longer until and

22 unless Mr. Price has it.

23 MR. RAMPTON: I know that.

24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: What I will do is hand back this one, which is

25 unmarked, and if you decide, as I hope you will, having taken

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2 instructions, that Mr. Price can see it, then he can have it

3 overnight rather than me because I do not need it overnight.

4 If the decision is that he is not to see them, then I am not

5 going to take it back, nor permit reference to it.

6 However, it would be very unfortunate because I have

7 been proceeding today on the basis that I am going to get a

8 transcript because otherwise I would have made a much fuller

9 note.

10 MR. RAMPTON: Yes, I quite understand that. Me too, for that

11 matter, as I know that I am. How quickly would your Lordship

12 like us to deal with it because ----

13 MR. PRICE: My Lord, the only point, I ----

14 MR. RAMPTON: Let me finish.

15 MR. PRICE: I beg your pardon, Mr. Rampton.

16 MR. RAMPTON: If your Lordship gives me two minutes, I can

17 probably get instructions quite quickly.

18 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I think that would be a good idea. I will just

19 rise for a moment to let you take instructions and then I will

20 come back into court.

21 (Short Adjournment)

22 MR. RAMPTON: Yes, less than two minutes. The answer is yes,

23 everybody shall a transcript. Perhaps we can leave it there?

24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I am very grateful. If there are not lots of

25 copies in court, shall I lend mine to Mr. Price and Mr. Barnes

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2 to use overnight and then if more copies could be supplied in

3 the morning, that would be most helpful.

4 MR. PRICE: If we could take one because then my learned junior

5 can start working on indexing.

6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: He can. I have it on e-mail anyway.

7 MR. PRICE: I am sure your Lordship will be supplied with another

8 hard copy.

9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, please. Before anyone stands up, can I

10 just sort out my files. (Pause) I was given this morning a

11 small pile of documents headed "Schedule of Trial Bundle

12 Updates", with the name of Carter-Ruck at the top right.

13 Re-amended defence, an e-mail from Miss Hermitage to a

14 Mr. Ebbick, some additional witness statements and a Guardian

15 Organisational Chart and so on. Is there any reason why my

16 clerk should not thread these into the documents?

17 MR. RAMPTON: No, I have done it to mine.

18 MR. PRICE: I think it would be a good idea. Can I suggest that

19 your Lordship, in the case of re-amended defence, if you would

20 discard the amended defence because the numbering has replaced

21 it. The e-mail to Mr. Ebbick is just a better copy of a

22 document that is already in the file, so the old one can be

23 discarded as well.

24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Right, will do. 10.30 tomorrow.

25 (Adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow)



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pardon 182:21271:10 316:5320:22 321:20328:15

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pharmacists189:11

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192:25photograph

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235:15placed260:25plainly 209:17

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pointing 190:23points 297:15policy 185:12

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248:4proud 254:7,25

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177:7 178:6182:11,14215:14,20

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Publication 213:9publications

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publicise216:25227:13 228:3

publicity 197:2273:15,17

publish 201:13,16211:15 212:14215:23,24237:24

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publishing 274:25pull 256:8 261:15punch 188:21

190:8 191:13194:6 195:10199:25 207:3,8236:18,19255:15 312:12319:19,24,25

pupils 191:14purely 183:3purple 302:15purpose282:6

287:11purse215:21pursue176:11

315:11pushed270:25put 165:16 185:14

196:14 199:8,10199:19 203:24

204:4 213:4220:17 222:6223:19 226:7227:21 231:13231:24 237:2238:9 244:8261:7 264:3,7270:6 274:18280:20 285:22287:24 289:4292:18,19299:11,16307:11 312:6315:16

putting 181:12195:24 202:18308:20

QQC 163:19,20quality 163:15,16

230:23quantum 176:8quarter 224:4Queens297:14QUEEN'S 163:1question165:11

181:10,11 183:6185:14,24 186:2192:17 203:23203:24 211:4212:20 216:17222:4,4 223:19227:17,21228:15 232:13239:10,19 244:2244:8 255:23260:3 261:16262:3 264:3265:13 267:18269:6,22 275:23277:13 278:17280:8 282:17285:21 287:21287:22,23 289:6289:7,19 290:11291:22,23 308:4310:5 317:10326:13

questions199:10271:5 272:8,9280:5 282:24291:19,21292:22 293:2,3300:19 309:4

quickly 275:24311:14 328:11328:17

quit 251:3,14quite 173:17

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quote209:12quoted248:7

RR 163:23racism200:5racist 199:13

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290:2,11 293:19raising 253:10rallies 270:19Rampton 163:19

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rate 264:10280:22

reach204:11reached184:7reaction 284:10

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reader 277:14,16277:16

reading 171:7176:6 186:23187:3 278:13300:20

reads172:21173:2,25 174:5188:22 191:8,14192:12 195:11198:8,21,24199:22 202:10207:12 213:9217:10 249:19254:21 272:20273:8,20 285:4287:10

ready 256:16real 218:19reality 223:4really 277:13reason165:24

166:15 173:4177:9,11 180:8180:15 181:12181:16,20,22,25231:12 238:10238:15 296:14319:8 320:19,23324:14 329:15

reasonable280:22319:15

reasons180:10181:23 205:11251:3

recall 211:25282:17 290:23295:16

RECALLED

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176:14 302:16302:19 317:14318:2,13 323:9

receivership260:25

receiving175:20recite 298:17reckons190:18recollect290:19recollection

278:21recommendation

234:14 256:7recommended

249:17record 178:6

300:4records245:13

260:4 261:11recovery236:24recruited 233:19

234:16,22 236:3236:5 237:5

redacted174:14175:2,6

reduce176:12reducing 176:7refer 193:18

325:23reference208:15

243:23 328:5references173:11referred 193:12

198:7 244:2referring 291:5

313:12 316:19325:25

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times165:7203:16 209:18240:3 271:18,19272:7

time-consuming266:7

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today 207:5,9229:13,15274:12 283:24286:23 295:20

328:7told 170:4 171:8

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tomorrow 326:6,9326:11 329:24329:25

tonight 327:17top 174:4 195:10

255:14 299:9305:25 312:6315:15,20316:10 317:4319:19,24,25329:12

topic 183:6204:14 230:16242:24 274:10289:12

total 216:2,24238:9 241:25

totally 211:23236:22 271:9,12271:13

touch 289:13touched289:17towel 180:16training 192:6,8

192:13transaction 256:3

259:18transcript 163:15

277:22 326:14328:8,23

transcripts326:13

transition 254:2translation 278:9

278:10translations

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mengi v hermitage 2102 trial transcript

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