The OICW was a failed weapon system. The 20mm round was deemed “ineffective”. Scaling it up 5mm

(1/5 of an inch bigger) can’t really make all that big of a difference. It will never match the power of a

regular 40mm grenade or the new 40mm Hell Hound. The Army likes it? – of course they do. I don’t know

how the Army plans on implementing it into their Squads and what they do with it doesn’t mean the

Marines will do the same thing. There are other alternatives already deployed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjqu4hBFWFA&nohtml5=False

Effective Range is 500m. It uses a 4 round box magazine. The grenades is 25mm. That’s about the size of

your thumb. Maybe we can call it a “Thumb Grenade”? How lethal does your thumb look? It also presents

a new logistical challenge as the 25mm round is not used by any other weapons.

The Milkor 40mm SuperSix MRGL was developed in 2012 and features a new recoil reduction system,

redesigned stock, strengthened construction and new optics. The SuperSix MRGL is capable of firing a

wide range of standard (LV) and medium velocity (MV) munitions, which enables the user to engage a

wider range of targets than possible with previous launchers and its range reaches a distance of 800 to 1

200 metres. Rounds can be fired in rapid succession of 6 rounds in less than 3 seconds (operator dependant)

and has a standard 6-shot area coverage of at least 20m x 60m. It weighs 12 pounds, the M25 is 14 pounds.

The next generation M32 is supposed to weigh 10 pounds fully loaded.

The M32 round weighs 225 grams with 98g A5 explosive.

I wonder how stressful the tests have been on these electronics?

"The HUNTIR Round is a fixed-type cartridge designed to be fired from 40mm Grenade Launchers M79

and M203 (attached to the M16/M16A1 rifle) or a Milkor MK-1/[MGL-140] Grenade Launcher. The round

consists of a cartridge case assembly, and a metal projectile body containing a first fire charge, a

pyrotechnic delay column, an ejection charge, a CMOS Camera, and a parachute assembly. Upon firing,

the projectile assembly is propelled to an average height of 700 feet, the first fire charge ignites the

pyrotechnic delay element, which ignites an ejection charge that effectively ejects the CMOS Camera,

which is attached to the parachute. The CMOS Camera provides up to 5 minutes of real-time streaming

video to a handheld device with a corresponding transmitter. No such round for the M25.

Marines are using this:

http://www.defensereview.com/marines-get-new-six-shot-40mm-grenade-launcher-meet-the-m32-mgl/

M-25 Combat Proven? I haven’t seen any specific tests or after action reports on effectiveness or how it’s

used (single or multiple shots for engagement) other than the Afghan AAR. Mostly I’ve read third hand

information on how great it is. The technology is most likely proven as they’ve had 10 years to work on it.

It looks easy to use. What is the Mean Time Between Failure of the electronics? Our weapons have

jamming problems already. Is the M25 more or less prone to jamming? How does it fire after throwing a

handful of sand on the receiver and magazine? What temperatures and moisture levels can the ammo and

electronics operate? What happens when it is dropped? How does the sighting/laser hold up in smoke, dust,

snow, rain, etc? Has it been tested in a jungle? How many system failures did it have? How many rounds

did the gunner carry? How many rounds were fired in a typical engagement? (looks like 5) If the Milkor

fired 5 rounds it would cover a much greater area and with greater lethality. Let’s see an interview with a

Grunt that carried and fired it for a few weeks. I’m not saying it fails all of the above I just can’t find the

info anywhere. Combat proven firing 55 rounds under ideal conditions with two probable kills is not what

I’d call a Game Changer. Forcing them to change tactics, yes. Will the enemy adapt? Most likely.

The sales brochure doesn’t say much: http://www2.l-3com.com/brashear/products/groundfire/xm104.pdf

Interesting Opinion:

http://www.alternet.org/world/149146/xm25_%27super_rifle%27_--

_the_pentagon%27s_latest_toy_that_won%27t_do_anything_to_avoid_disaster_in_afghanistan/?page=1

AAR:

http://kitup.military.com/2011/02/inside-the-xm-25-after-action-reports-from-afghanistan.html

http://westvegaslunch.blogspot.com/2011/06/xm-25-after-action-reports.html

http://militaryreporter.net/2011/02/07/after-action-report-on-the-use-of-the-xm-25

Fired about 50 times in 10 engagements with two suspected kills. Mixed results. Not a “killer round” but if

5 rounds scares the enemy away that’s a winner. However, 5 rounds from the Milkor would kill him and his

buddies nearby. But this is the first time the enemy was engaged. Now that they know its use and

engagement parameters what defensive adjustments are they going to make?

It looks as if the “Combat Testing” took place in pretty much ideal environmental conditions. No reports on

jams or malfunctions.

The M25 can be used in a static/defensive position but most crew served weapons like .50cal HMG, 40mm

auto GL, 60mm mortars and .50cal Sniper Rifles have longer range and ability to penetrate walls.

Lethality: AAR report states hitting a machine gun and the gunner gets away? How lethal is that? It does

look like it’s a good Ambush Breaker (as long as the ambush is 50+ yards away). However, an M32 with 6

Hell Hound rounds fired in 3 three seconds into an ambush site would do much better and most likely kill

someone too. It’s cheaper and uses current logistics and ammo manufacture. Less electronics to fail.

Show me a video of a 25mm round going through a window and impacting in a room with goats and sheep

with their body wrapped in a sheet and their head in a towel. How lethal is it there? Unfortunately we

haven’t had the opportunity to fight stupid enemies. We see the bad guys adapting to any new weapons or

tactics we have. They can make prepared defensive positions they can duck back into and not be exposed

by an air burst. They can fire from a small hole in a building (not the window). Hiding behind a wall or in a

trench without overhead cover could be fatal. The M25 will be the preferred weapon of choice in certain

circumstances, just like a pistol or bayonet would be in certain situations. The claims of it being a “Game

Changer” are still not proven. I hope it wins the war but I’m not holding my breath. Remember the claims

about the M16?

This video isn’t impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjqu4hBFWFA&nohtml5=False

Look at the frag pattern at 1:58, looks as if it needs to explode right over you. If it goes off by the guys

head it should be lethal. It appears that about half of the blast fragments go vertical, away from the target.

The data states it defeats PSAGT Vest and Helmet. But this armor is supposed to protect from small

fragmentation – conflicting information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personnel_Armor_System_for_Ground_Troops

25mm fragmentation is pretty small. The PSAGT armor is obsolete and most likely an enemy would be

better armored (if they did have body armor). Using the latest captured US body armor would defeat the

25mm frag. Thermobaric would be another issue.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/futureweapons-mei-mercury-40mm-grenade.html

Compare Hell Hound lethality at 1:17-1:21 in this video, 800 yard range too

You mentioned new High Tech Explosives? Which ones are they? Wouldn’t other grenades be using the

same explosives too?

40mm Grenade:

If projected into an interior room, the 40-mm HEDP can penetrate all interior partition-type walls. It

splinters plywood and plaster walls, making a hole large enough to fire a rifle through. It is better to have

HEDP rounds pass into a room and explode on a far wall, even though much of the round's energy is

wasted penetrating the back wall. The fragmentation produced in the room causes more casualties than the

HE jet formed by the shaped charge.

The fragments from the 40mm HEDP round do not reliably penetrate interior walls. Office furniture

sandbags, helmets, and protective vests (flak jackets) also stop them (but the 25mm M25 round claims to

penetrate them?). HEDP rounds can penetrate 6 to 8 inches of brick. (they don’t need to go through the

window). The M203 dual-purpose weapon has the inherent accuracy to place grenades into windows at 125

meters and bunker apertures at 50 meters (but at a very low rate of fire). These ranges are significantly

reduced as the angle of obliquity increases. Combat experience shows that M203 gunners cannot

consistently hit windows at 50 meters when forced to aim and fire quickly. (not sure how quickly you can

fire using telescopic sights as it is normally harder to acquire the target than open sights. No info on how

M25 works under those conditions).

The M25 has a longer range and would be better overall in Afghanistan than Iraq (mountain versus urban

combat) than the M203.However, it appears the M203 can fire the Hell fire Grenade

M32

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX-99a1JCc4

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/usmcs-new-m32s-hitting-the-field-02042/

Same weight as M25 (new version will be 10 pounds unloaded), headshots at 150 meters, 6x 40mm rounds

on target in 3 seconds, fires HEDP, Hell Hound, 800 meter range, thermobaric, breaching round. The 6

round drum can be loaded with different rounds. Before firing the gunner can rotate the drum to the round

he wants to fire. You can’t do that with the M-25 magazine. Hell Hound is being used by USMC at

Battalion Level, not replacing weapons with Rifle Squads. Not sure if this can use the M-47 technology for

behind defile feature. They’ve been testing the M32 for 5 years and have ordered 9,000 of them. They may

not want the M25. The M32A1 was a Battalion Commander's discretionary weapon in the US Marine

Corps as of January 2011. That means there was not a doctrinal role tied to an individual designated to

carry that weapon. Instead, the Battalion Commander would choose carefully who they wanted to carry the

weapon. They could use the M25 the same way. Again, logistics problems as ammo, gun and sights are not

compatible with anything else.

Mercury Round with 800m range and can be used with M203 launcher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAHp4YaEyZk&nohtml5=False

M47

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_47

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/mk47.htm

It achieves a 90 percent hit rate on the first round. Some of the weapon's features include a lightweight

video-sighting system, laser range finder, and electronic elevation mechanism. Produced by Raytheon, the

Mk 47's sophisticated Lightweight Video Sight (LVS) fire control system utilizes laser rangefinding, image

intensified night vision, and ballistic computer technology to assist soldiers in the detection, recognition

and first-round engagement of target threats. he laser range finder that provide a fire solution for day/night

operations in all weather. Crew/vehicle mount only.

40mm Hell Hound Round:

http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/MEI%20HELLHOUND.pdf

Logistics & Procurement:

Weight & ammo issue: When I said it was heavy I was referring to a Rifle a Marine Rifleman would carry,

not other weapons. They are trying to reduce the load Grunts are carrying because guys are getting back

and knee injuries which affect the rest of the Squad like a WIA. Are the other Squad members going to

hump ammo for him like they carry belted MG ammo? The only info I can find on the ammo weight is that

it is 8 ounces per round. A six round magazine would weigh about 4.5 pounds. Carrying 60 rounds in

magazines add 45 pounds to the Squad that the weapon is assigned to making it to about 60 pounds for the

weapon and 60 rounds of ammo.

It appears to be employed like a Sniper weapon., no good in an ambush or close in house to house unless

you have the flechette rounds but bullets are better. But then what’s the chance of having the right round at

the right time in the chamber? It could replace a shotgun with breaching rounds and flechettes. A Grunt

with an M4 with a scope could hit a guy in a window at the max range of the M25 with a good probability

of a kill and not hurt any civilians in the room. Overall I’d have to classify it as a short range sniper

weapon; it does use a telescopic sight.

Impact on a Marine Rifle Squad: You are taking a rifle away from a member of the Squad which throws off

all of the Squad Tactics the Marines have developed since WWII. You could give one to the Platoon

Sergeant and have him be the Platoon Commanders personal artillery. However, this takes him away from

his main duty of command and control. Do the Marines have to train their Armorers to repair the

electronics? Do they need a new MOS for Weapons Electronics Repairman? The purchase price is $25-

35K. Are the Marines getting additional money of does it come from another system that they need to cut

back on? Unfortunately we can’t afford everything the Marines need or want. The Marines have been

testing the M32 but not as part of the normal Weapons or Rifle Platoon.

How could the Marines use it?

My opinion is you can’t consider taking a rifle away from a member of a Rifle Squad except on rare

occasions. It ruins the Squad Tactics and the effectiveness of the entire Platoon. Additional firepower is not

always the answer.

Mounted on an M4 Rail (without a sight) single shot and can replace the 12 gauge shotgun for busting open

doors. 25mm Flechette round and auto fire M4 would be lethal in urban combat.

Could a simpler electronic/sight be mounted on an M4 Rail along with a single shot 25mm to use like a

Sniper? Giving one to each member of a Fire Team or Squad would probably work. But worth the cost?

Have a few at the Platoon HQ to be used when the mission warrants.

Overwatch with Sniper Teams in a static position.

Have it replace an Assault Section (replacing the SMAW) in a Weapons Company.

Give the Squad Leader or Fire Team Leader a single shot flare pistol with the capability to fire a reduced

charge 25mm HE or Thermobaric Round for Urban combat.