minutes of the charter rwiew commission

MINUTES OF THE CHARTER RWIEW COMMISSION March 5, 2007 6:30 p.m.

Chair John Miller called the meeting to order at 6:31 p.m. followed by the pledge of allegiance and roll call. Randy Simmons arrived late.

Pattv Rosand. Auditor Patty indicated that the main impact of the Charter is in the area of elections. It is up to the Auditor to implement the changes adopted in the Charter and they are often in uncharted territory.

Q. Regarding instant runoff voting (IRV), how would that impact your office? A. Pierce County has passed an amendment that was briefly written and the Auditor has

to develop rules to institute it. The current voting system does not count instant runoff voting.

Q. If IRV was adopted, would that have a financial impact on several areas? A. Yes.

Q. How are voters assured their vote is counted? A. Counting is open to anyone who wants to observe. Political observers are usually

sent by their party. Citizens are notified why their ballot wasn't counted; usually it is because two ballots were received or it was unsigned. A logic and accuracy test is performed before the votes are counted. If an individual wants to know how their vote was counted they have secrecy.

Q. I f IRV was instituted, what would it cost? A. Pierce County uses Sequoia software and they have been quoted $350,000 to convert

it. Hart Intercivic, our software vendor, said $350,000 would be on the low side for them and that they are not interested in reprogramming for just one county.

Q. I n the last general election, how many voters were contacted that their vote wasn't counted and the reason?

A. Maybe 75, most were unsigned ballots.

Q. Is the software reprogrammed at each election? A. They program each election and run the accuracy and logic test. The Secretary of

State's office sends someone to monitor the process.

Q. Are you paid enough for what you do? A. Fairly.

Q. Do you have any staff that are paid more than you? A. No.

Minutes of the Charter Review Commission March 5, 2007

Q. Since we have non-partisan positions, do you know of any office where someone could be named to run against a single candidate?

A. No.

Q. Since County voting is by mail, how many actual machines are there? A. One scanner with a backup and three electronic voting devices

Q. The $300,000 is to develop the software? A. Any software has to be tested and certified which is at least $100,000 and takes

about 8 months.

Q. Is there another way to change the voting process besides the Charter? A. No, unless the state adopts one.

Q. What is the timeframe for software conversion? A. Talked to Hart Intercivic today. It would first have to be developed, then to sent an

independent testing lab, then to the Secretary of State which would take about two years.

Q. If the state were to mandate IRV, what would happen? A. I f it were an option, vendors would have to meet the state requirements to be

considered for use.

Q. Who is the vendor for the City of Tacoma? A. Sequoia, at a cost of over $350,000. There is another jurisdiction in the state where

they developed IRV software. There are different methods for administering IRV and Pierce County is just starting theirs.

Q. What would be the cost for changing vendors? A. The Auditor spent in excess of $190,000 in grant funding through the Help America

Vote A d for the current system.

Q. There have been rumors of court cases, have you heard anything further or know of any potential problems?

A. She is not aware of any legal cases pending at this time.

Q. What is your feeling regarding elected versus appointed? A. The Commissioners have made appointments in the past when other Auditors

resigned and listed an accounting degree as a requirement. The Auditor also administers licensing, recording, and elections. It is hard to find someone with the background in all the areas - a good representative can be elected.


Q. What is the cost for changes to the Charter? A. Minimal, there were a number of things on the ballot this November and the cost was

under $500 each.

Q. IRV software, is there another way to count ballots which would cost substantially less?

A. The hand method? By state law they have 21 days to count ballots and they do it up until the last day.

Q. When do they count and what if they have a recount? A. 45,000 registered voters, is a lot to count by hand; it has been done.

Q. Qualifications? A. I f appointed, there is a job description looking for something very specific. The

Board of Commissioners (BOC) wanted a CPA and they had no licensing or elections background.

Q. The implication is that anyone can run for the job without qualifications? A. Right, only one or two running for office.

Q. There was a proposal before the Commission suggesting that each ballot could be recognized by an individual number and that it would be possible to present the number and see how the individual vote was tallied, is that possible?

A. Not at this point. They can pull up a serial number and show that it was tabulated but not how. There are rules about marks on ballots set by the state and any identifying mark can disqualify the vote.

Q. Only the six Charter Counties have the authority for countywide offices, would the current legislation allow them to include their junior taxing districts if limited in scope?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there a serial number and tracking of how everyone voted? Is there any kind of audit of our system?

A. In the logic and accuracy test they know what results to expect. The same database is used for elections so it is predicting the right outcome. Observers can stop the election at any point and ask for a hand-count, or a hand-count of precincts can be done. The voter has the legal right to do so.

Deb Kellv. Prosecutina Attornev In large part, the effect of the Charter is being a Coroner/Prosecutor which is different than any county our size. Once the population reaches 40,000, there is usually an elected Coroner. She doesn't believe making the Prosecuting Attorney the


Coroner was a wise choice. She notes it made sense when the County was smaller and the population steadier. She explains her attorneys are not Coroners and they have no medical training; they do not make as good of choices that someone with a medical background would. It is often more costly because they don't order an autopsy when they should and vice versa and rely on law enforcement for investigations. She explains that every Prosecuting Attorney has addressed this issue with the Charter Review Commission. She believes the Coroner function is not done as well as our citizens deserve.

Q. What would it cost to have a Coroner in place? A. Doesn't know, only that using the Prosecuting Attorney as the Coroner is a bargain.

Some counties have a Coroner with training as a pathologist and that would be less expensive; they don't have to hire someone.

Q. Included with the duties of Coroner are the assets of the deceased, are you comfortable with that?

A. We are unable to do much in that area and they rely largely on law enforcement to perform those functions; they don't have the money to hire an investigator.

Q. Any unattended death has to have an autopsy, what percentage are questionable and might require one?

A. Not every unattended death requires an autopsy; it falls in the Coroner's jurisdiction. They typically contact the medical personnel who know the individual to determine the cause of death. The only time an autopsy is performed is if the doctor is not comfortable making the determination.

Q. What qualifications would you want in a Coroner? A. Someone who has far more happenstance medical information than she has; who is

closely connected with the medical profession or has medical training would be superior.

Q. If it is an elected position, they can't require qualifications, is that correct? A. She believes it comes down to cost. She looked at contracting services through

Olympic Medical Center; there was never enough money to make it attractive.

Q. What would contracting for their services cost? A. The figure suggested was $100,000 to $120,000; the current budget is $60,000.

Q. Do you foresee budget problems in the future if the budget is $60,000 and you can't hire? Could the County decide to make it an elected position?

A. An elected position is an option and the ideal way the office should operate. Each autopsy costs about $1,300 and the state reimburses approximately 40 percent.


Q. What you are describing sounds like an allocation of resources problem, if there were a Coroner would you still rely on law enforcement?

A. The counties who have Coroners don't use law enforcement, they go into the field and make the determinations themselves.

Q. Would having a Coroner free up law enforcement? A. Doesn't think that would be the case; they still have to respond to an unattended

death to determine if a criminal investigation needs to occur.

Q. Are you aware of a similar issue with other counties of our size? Do they have private companies that work for several different entities to perform autopsies?

A. The pathologist we use is self-employed and works for 11 counties. The difference is that other counties with a population great than 40,000 have an elected Coroner.

Q. Do you make enough money? A. Would like more, not her primary concern.

Q. Does anyone in your office make more than you? A. No.

Q. In contract discussions with Olympic Medical Center, would they be working for the Prosecuting Attorney but not as a Coroner?

A. Would be under contract similar to the pathologist.

Q. An investigatorJDeputy Coroner was suggested and was passed up in order to hire a Deputy Prosecuting Attorney, were you aware of that?

A. Wasn't aware of that opportunity.

Q. Approximately what do we spend in a year contracting with the pathologist? A. The budget is $60,000 and rates have just gone up. He used to charge $1,000 an

autopsy. There are other charges if forensics or a criminal case is involved such as expert witness fees. They can take some out of other budgets. If the pathologist testifies in a murder trial then there are additional expenses.

Q. About how many autopsies over been performed over the last year? A. I n the neighborhood of 50+

Q. I f $60,000 is the base budget, what does it cost in total in a year? A. If there is a murder trial, such as last year, there were an additional $10,000 in

pathologist fees as an expert witness; staff is salaried. Q. So cost is in the $60,000-$100,000 range? A. Yes.


Q. I f Coroner is an elected position, they would have an office; if appointed, would they have an office and staff?

A. The Prosecuting Attorney would provide support services to them initially if the Charter Review Commission was willing to consider.

Q. Does every elected official have a deputy? A. Yes.

Q. If this was an appointed position, who would supervise? A. She believes the BOC would be better than the Prosecuting Attorney.

Q. Do you perform autopsies in motor vehicle deaths? A. Many, not all.

Q. Do you receive any funding from the state through the highway department? A. She is not aware of any funding through the highway department. There is

reimbursement through the Forensics Council for investigations of 40 percent. There is a rare instance when labor questions arise in a death such as whether or not safety regulations were followed. I f Labor and Industries asks for an investigation, they cover the cost.

Q. Is there any reason the BOC can't say we are hiring a Coroner by changing the Charter?

A. No there isn't. She can deputize or she could refuse to deputize and they would have no authority.

Q. Would you be willing to put out information about requirements if it was to be an elected position?

A. Voter education? Yes.

Q. Would you prepare a spreadsheet showing actual costs versus forecast costs with an elected position?

A. Yes.

Q. Would it be feasible to hire someone as a part-time Coroner? A. She believes there are counties that do that.

Q. About 50 autopsies a year, is approximately one a week, is that accurate? A. There is usually more than one death a week, not all require an autopsy. It comes in

swings - weeks without a death and then three or four in a weekend. It is not a position where you would expect someone to have regular hours.

Q. I f they have to do investigation and field work, would that take more time? A. Would be happy to address that as well.


Q. Where are autopsies performed, would that change with an elected Coroner? A. Funeral homes allow them to use their premises, she believes they would continue to

work with an elected Coroner.

John handed the gavel to Sue Erzen, First Vice Chair

Rob RobertsenIJohn Miller, PastIPresent Director of the Demrtment of Communitv Develo~ment (DCDI

Rob Robertsen - Feels it should go back to an appointed position because it takes a certain amount of expertise that might not happen in an elected position. They have been lucky to have people who understand budgeting, administration, and laws. He has concerns that it could go the other way and that the County could be drawn into a lawsuit. John Miller - Last Friday was his two month anniversary. He indicates it has been interesting and that he is impressed with the technical skills and expertise of his staff. It has been a great transition thanks to Rob. He emphasizes that he made a commitment to the Commission to refrain from expressing his opinion on the issue of whether it is an appointed or elected position pointing out five years ago as a member on the 2002 Charter Review Commission, he voted against it going on the ballot as an elected position and actively campaigned against it.

Note: Answers provided by Rob Robertsen are noted "R" and those by John Miller "J"

Q. If this was an appointed position, how would you see the public's role in oversight and supervision?

R. Important to have public oversight. The comments from other counties suggested that by making it elected, you take the politics out of the decision. That may be true, but it could go the other way as well.

3. In addition to the direct supervisory role of the BOC, there are also two advisory boards - the Planning Commission and the Permit Advisory Board. A feedback loop could be a way to determine accountability.

Q. Authority of Commissioners with appointments, how would they remove someone from office?

R. Believe it should be an appointed position so there is oversight to take citizen input more seriously. Before taking office, there were numerous complaints about accessibility and customer service.

Q. Where would accountability be? R. An elected director could be a disaster if they took power into their own hands and

made a decision without knowing the law. Q. Is it better to have the power in the hands of the DCD director or the BOC? R. With the Board there are three individuals.


Q. Every appointed department head has a contract that the BOC can terminate due to their exempt status; if elected, the process is recall?

R. Theoretically - nearly takes an a d of God to get rid of a department head.

Q. Is this the only elected DCD Director in the Country? R. Yes.

Q. One of the issues is the potential of conflict between an elected DCD Director and the BOC. What is your experience? How was conflict dealt with?

R. During his employment as a building official there was a lot of pressure from the BOC to change something and he would have to explain the law. He felt more of the conflict as a division manager. As an elected he felt more like they were working together as a team. His first budget meeting was a nightmare and he promised it would never happen again. He heard comments that things were better since going to an elected Director. He doesn't feel things were better because it went to an elected position, but rather because there was someone who knew how to fix things.

J. Explained that Tom Shindler does GIs and that he is the longest tenured employee. He Relies on the professional, technical expertise of his staff. He has only been asked to decide two things; one was blocking an emergency access and the other someone with a 5-acre parcel who built an access road and was required to abandon the other roads.

Q. If the public sees it working well, and the department heads see it working well, why fix it?

R. It's not broken and won't be broken in the next four years. It could break if there was someone with an agenda and no expertise in management, supervision, and understanding state law. The one thing he learned is that DCD is the most complex department in the county dealing with salmon restoration, fire codes, mechanical codes, and land use codes. It takes expertise; leave the complexity to people with knowledge.

Q. Do you think there would be more applicants if it were appointed? R. Yes, probably 10 or possibly 20 applicants because the salary would go up $20,000-

$30,000 a year.

Q. Is the money enough? R. Enough for him. J. Took a cut in pay; with the benefits and vehicle allowance it's about a wash. He

referred to the presentation by Jim Jones, who indicated not all elected officials are paid the same.

Q. Are there individuals who are paid more than the Director? R. At least one.


Q. In as much as they are paid more, does it get in the way of decision making? R. He recommended that the individual be paid more than him. He feels the salary was

adequate for him because it had other income; it is on the low side for the department.

J. Medical care providers for the tribe were paid more than the executive director; for two years he supervised engineers who were paid more than him.

Q. Is the issue whether or not we should trust the voters to make a good decision? J. Doesn't have a problem with it being elected if only he didn't have to stop work to

campaign. R. One of the reasons he backed out of the election was the enormity of the campaign -

he never had a real vacation while in office and then had to take time out to campaign. He explained it's grueling with speeches at 17 to 18 meetings and at least eight hours of preparation for each hour of speaking.

Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether it has an.impact on employees whether the office is elected or appointed?

R. When he took over, the moral was rock bottom due to campaigning. The election every 4 years puts stress due to uncertainty on the staff. There are only two "at-will" employees.

J. There are 29 employees besides the Director. The Planning Manager, his designated deputy, and Rich Sill, a commissioned officer performing enforcement duties, are exempt.

Q. What is your opinion about having all offices appointed rather than elected? R. You would have to increase the wages. No problem with Auditor, Assessor,

Treasurer being elected offices because they are focused more in one area; the DCD Director has to have knowledge in many things. Keep the Sheriff elected and appoint the DCD director.

Q. How much money was spent campaigning? R. Around $20,000. When you take campaign money, you're beholden to those who

contribute and that you are going to do special favors. J. Salary is $58,000, slightly below what Rob was making. Four years ago, he spent

$2,000 on his campaign and didn't have to report because he was knocked out in the primary. When he filed this year, he thought he'd have to raise $10,000.

Q. What is your relationship with the Planning Commission; do they represent the community?

R. The Planning Commission is very representative of the citizens of the county. He attended many of the meetings at the beginning of his term and then drifted away and let the Planning Manager attend. They also have the Permit Advisory Board which he attended fairly regularly.


J. Has attended all of the Planning Commission meetings that meet twice a month. He offered to follow up on how they feel as appointed Planning Commission members about providing feedback on his performance.

Q. How much did Patty Rosand spend on her campaign? A. Election costs were $12,000 for the campaign with a $618 filing fee. Her salary is

$57,000.

Action: Rod Fleck moved to adopt the agenda, Norma Turner seconded, mc

A ~ ~ r o v a l of Minutes Action: Rod Fleck moved to adopt the minutes of February 5, 2007; Patti Morris seconded, mc Action: Rod Fleck moved to adopt the minutes of February 20, 2007, Jim Pickett seconded. Corrections: Randy Simmons was absent; under New Business add "seconded" at page 3; mc; abstentions were recorded by Ken Wiersema, Terry Roth, Sue Forde, and Dave Cummins.

Communications/Public Comment Marv Chastain, 356 Lawrence Road, Port Angeles, read the attached testimony. Rod Fleck clarified that Forks has its own jail. Tom Shindler asked what about the current government isn't working? There are three commissioners and two can't talk because it would be an illegal meeting; he had a bad experience with DCD before Robertsen took over. He stated it seems like it was a department run by incompetence; he is very much in favor of an elected position. He indicated that if there was a single executive elected by the people it would be better. Ron Richards, 124 Township Line Road, Port Angeles, spoke in support of an appointed DCD director and discretion regarding proposed adoption of instant runoff voting. Dick French, 319 West 7th Port Angeles, spoke in support of an elected DCD director, wants commissioners elected by district, and county employees exempt from serving on the Charter Review Commission. Terry Roth asked if he would recommend more than three districts. French responded that three commissioners are all right with him.

Unfinished Business Committees

Dave Cummins, Terry Roth, Sue Forde are added to the Commissioners/Administrator committee Dave Cummins moved to form a committee to review Initiative, Referendum, and Recall, Terry Roth seconded, mc. Members are Dave Cummins and Sue Forde. Add Randy Simmons to the Instant Runoff VotingJAll Forms of Voting committee


Committee Report - Mickie Vail and Norma Turner met to discuss appointed versus elected, recall versus termination; they are looking at it generically for all the elected positions with the exception of the Commissioners. They will meet again on the March 14. Sue Forde moved to create a committee to study General Provisions/Eminent Domain, Rod Fleck seconded, mc. Members are Patti Morris, Randy Simmons, Sue Forde, and John Miller*

*John approached the Clerk following the meeting and withdrew from the committee.

New Business Aim to get Committee reports to Trish by Wednesday.

Announce Date for Next Meetinq March 19, 2007 at 6:30 p.m., Guy Cole Convention Center, Carrie Blake Park, Sequim

Good of the Order To carpool to the Sequim meeting, meet at 6 p.m. in the parking lot.

Adjournment Dave Cummins moved to adjourn, Patti Adler seconded, meeting adjourned at 9:13 p.m.

Respectfully submitted,

-5i=& k4-D ldcul Trish Holden, CMC, Secretary Charter Review Commission

County Government In the Early days, county government was mostly concerned with roads. The system of three elected commissioners, one from each of the three sections of the county and performing both the executive and legislative function worked pretty well. Also the model T Ford was a pretty good vehicle with which to traverse those roads.

But, this is the 21 st century. County government functions have expanded tremendously in size and complexity, as well as in the amount of tax money being expended. I don't see many Model Ts in the parking lot, Yet, we still have a model T form of government. We need a single elected county administrator for the executive functions and an elected council of five or seven members for the legislative function.

The law and justice function is expanding faster than revenue can keep up .and we need another superior court judge, which they tell us we can't afford. So, some changes need to be made that would reduce costs. Law enforcement should be combined for the entire county. Sequim and PA each having their own police force is expensive and downright silly and has had some very bad results in some cases. All county law enforcement should be provided by the sherrifs department. After all, they all use the same jail now. Other functions probably could also be combined to save the taxpayers money, simplifying a lot of processes and no doubt providing better service to the population. Once it was a matter of Town or country, they were very different regions, with different needs and people. Now, when I drive accross a city line, unless I watch the road signs very carefully, I can't tell when I pass from one to the other. And, city councils go through rediculous gyrations to expand the city so as to get more revenue - - thus robbing the county of revenue.

So, what is the problem. The problem is that people fear CHANGE!!! and love POWER We need to get over it. Change is happening whether or not we want to acknowledge it. Government needs to run and catch up.

I understand there has been some discussion of instituting the Instant Rerun Voting system. This would be a tremendous improvement. Why should the taxpapers have to pay for a primary election which is now entirely the business of the individual parties? We need to adopt the IRV system and forget primaries. The chiefs of the two major political parties don't like it, but that's too bad. The IRV system would give the people a chance to really pick our officers.

Marv Chastain 356 Lawrence Rd Port Angeles, WA 98363 360 928-31 54

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