nixons grand jury testimony june 23 1975 pt 3

8/3/2019 Nixons Grand Jury Testimony June 23 1975 Pt 3

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HOOV R

R PORTING CO

N

.

320 Massachusetts

Aven

u1 NE.

Washington

, D.C .2 2

I?n?\

~ ~ ~ ~

117

AFTERNOON

SESSION

1:45

p

Whereupon,

RICHARD M. NIXON

resumed

the

s tand and

t e s t i f i e d fu r ther as

fo l lows :

E X A M I N A T I O N

BY

MR. MICHEL:

Q

For

the

reco rd my name i s Pau l

Michel ,

and I

wi l l be ques t ion ing

the

wi tness

concern ing what has been

des ignated

in d iscuss ions among

counsel as

e

unrepor ted

campaign funds.

S i r

I

would l i k e to t r y

to r e f r e s h

your

r e c o l l e c t i o n o f a number o f conversa t ions

t h a t

may

have been

held

some years

ago,

and

to beg in doing t h a t I

would

l i k e to

show you

a

shor t

por t ion o f a

t r a n s c r ip t

of the

t ape o f

a

Gohversat ion on Apri l

17, 1973, from 5:20 to 7:14 p . m.

That shor t ex ce rp t

which

covers page 52

and

page 53

o f the

t r a n s c r ip t

o f

t h a t t ape has

been

marked

as Exhibi t C- l .

The

document

r e f e r r e d to

was

m a r k ~ d x h i b ~ t No. C-l

for

i d ~ r i i f i c a t { 6 n .

MR. MICHEL: Mr. M i l l e r I

have

l e f t in f ron t o f you a

ex t ra s e t o f

those

appr opr i a t e ly

numbered so

t h a t

you can

fo l low

along

i you ca re t o .

BY MR. MICHEL:

Q

S i r I

would

l i k e to d i r e c t your a t t en t ion to the

f i r s t

paragraph o f t ha t - -


2/49

11 8

1

THE

WITNESS: I

am j u s t t ry ing to ge t my g lasses .

I

2

j u s t

never

wear

g las ses

except

when

I

am

reading.

3

Yes

go r igh t ahead.

4

BY

MR. MICHEL:

5

Q

Si r I would l ike

to

d i r ec t your

a t ten t ion

to

the

6 f i r s t paragraph

of

tha t

exh ib i t

and par t icu la r ly

to the

7

phrase in the middle of the paragraph

quote

but the re i s

8 a way we can

ge t

t

to

you and two o r

th ree hundred

thousand

9 do l la r s

end quote .

10 The

quest ion

i s

do

you

r e c a l l having

a

conversa-

11 t i on with Mr.

Haldeman

and Mr. Ehrlichman concerning

the

12

, p o s s ib i l i t y of your making

ava i lab le

to them

some

funds

13

for

t he i r an t i c ipa ted l ega l fees?

14

15

1 ;

17

18

1l

20

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24

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iOOVER REPORTING

CO,

IN .

l2 Massachusetts Avenu

1,N.

E

N a s h i ~ g t ~ ~ _

2 2

A

Yes.

Q

And

do you

r e c a l l

mentioning

the amount two or

three hundred thousand do l l a r s?

A

Yes.

Q

In making

tha t reference

were

you r e f e r r ing to

funds

a l ready in

hand funds t ha t had

a l ready

been received?

A Well in making t h a t r e fe rence

I

was r e f e r r ing

to

a

conversa t ion

t h a t I

had had

two days before and also

to

poss ib ly

the knowledge t h a t t

had

with regard to funds

tha t we

had rece ived

t h a t I knew we had.

Two days before August

15

1973

was

- -

Q Could

tha t

be Apri l IS?


3/49

119

1

A

I am sor r y , you a r e

r i g h t , Apri l 15

1973.

2

People

of ten ask

what i s

the

hardes t

day you ever had when

3

you

were Pr es iden t . I

suppose

t h a t

was

excep t

the day

I

4

res igned.

We

had

a

very

f u l l week end. Sammy Davis had

5 been t he r e

the evening before a t the White House and

we

were

6 up pas t midnigh t

with

him. We had a church

se r v i ce

in

t he

7 morning. Dr. Hil l was the minis te r ,

and

I s tood in

l i n e

for

8 about an hour

and

a h a l f shaking hands which was

our

9

custom.

10

Mr. Kleind iens t had c a l l e d me s h o r t l y before

11 t h a t se rv ice - - I d o n t know whether t was

t h a t

morning o r

12 . the nigh t before - -

and

sa id he wanted to see me on an

13

urgen t

mat te r ,

and

I sa id , wel l , come

over

a f t e r we

f i n i sh

14 the

church

se r v i ce

on

Sunday

and

he h i t me

with

what was

15 to me a bombshell o f massive pr opor t ions . I had

been

] i

concerned

as

a l l

o f

you

are

aware

about

t h i s

Watergate

17 th ing a t the

t ime t

happened p a r t i c u l a r l y

from

the

t ime

18

a f t e r

March

21

when

I l earned

from

John

Dean some

o f the

1 l

th ings

t h a t had never

been

t o ld

me

before wi th regard to the

20

demands

fo r

money

by seve r a l o f the - -

not

severa l , but

by

21

one

in

p a r t i c u l a r ,

Mr. Hunt f o r h i s

a t t o r n e y s

fees , and

22

t h a t unless

h is

demands were not s a t i s f i e d t h a t he

would

23

expose

mat te r s

t h a t he had with Mr.

Ehr l ichman

on

- -

t h i s

24

was

not about

Watergate

with Mr. Ehrlichman on mat t e r s

25

which

I

assume invo lved

a

high ly sens i t ive

opera t ion

ca l led

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120

1 the

Plumbers.

From

t h a t

t ime on I was concerned

about

t h i s .

2 I knew t h a t we had

to

ge t to the bottom

o f

it t h a t I would

3 have

to take

and I did

take

personal charge - -

4

Q

S i r are you - -

5 A Ju s t a second. I am giv ing you what happened as

6

to

how t h i s

money i s

- -

and the answer

wi l l

not

be too long

7 and between March 21 and Apr i l 15 Mr.

Dean

was conducting

8 an i nves t iga t ion Mr. Ehrlichman was

conducting

one I was

9 asking

quest ions as

wel l

and

so

fo r th

but

on

Apr i l

15

10 in

the a f te rnoon

Mr.

Kleindiens t

came in t h a t Sunday a f t e r -

11

noon

and sa id

to

me very b lun t ly t h a t new

evidence

had come

12 .

to the

a t t e n t i o n

o f

the Spec ia l Prosecutors t h a t based

13

14

15

i

17

18

IH

20

21

22

23

24

25

HOOVER

REPORTING

CO

INC

.

320 Massachusetts Aven u1 N E

Washington

DC 20002

on t h a t evidence t h a t it was h is advice and convinc t ion

and advice and convic t ion t h a t was shared

by Henry

Pe te r sen

who was the not Deputy

Attorney General

but Ass is tan t

Attorney

General

in

charge

of the

Criminal

Divis ion

t h a t

Mr. Haldeman and Mr.

Ehrlichman were

cr imina l ly involved and

t h a t they should be f i red .

It was f i r s t a

su rp r i s e ;

second need less

to

say a very

g r e a t

shock and I cont inued

to

t a l k with

Kleindiens t for some t ime. I t a lked

to

I be l ieve Haldeman

t h a t same

af te rnoon

probably

Ehrlichman and then Mr.

Rebozo who had come up to Washington. He f lew up from

Miami and I needed a

little

t ime of f and I went

out

with

him

to the

Sequoia which

the

logs w i l l

a l l

show

t h i s

and I


5/49

121

1

i n t en t iona l ly ,

of course , r e f reshed

my r eco l l ec t ion

on

tha t

2

par t icu la r

day.

3

On

t he

Sequoia I t o ld Rebozo

o f

t h i s conversa-

4

t i on . He

was

the

f i r s t

person I discussed t with,

excep t

5

of course wi th

Haldeman

Ehrlichman

and Kle ind iens t , and

6

I th ink Pe te r sen.

Whether

Petersen got in before o r a f t e r I

7

was

on

board I don ' t

r eca l l ,

but

Pe te r sen

did come

in .

I

8

remember he was wearing sneakers . He

had

been

out on h is

9

boat .

But

in

any

event ,

I

sa id

I

j u s t don ' t

know

what

to

10

do

here .

And

Rebozo who

has been

a c lose f r i end o f mine

11

for

almost

twenty- f ive years ,

t ru s ted , hones t

and b lun t , he

12

said they should

be

i red . He sa id as a

mat te r of

f ac t

13

they both should r es ign jus t

as

soon

as

any hea t

was r a i sed .

14

I sa id - - I t o ld him exact ly what I t o ld

15

Kleindiens t and Petersen,

t h a t

I d i dn ' t

be l ieve tha t

you

1 j

could

ask an individual to res ign simply because

charges

had

17

been made

and

impl ica t ions had been made.

So I

s a i d

t

18 i s n ' t

r igh t

to them personal ly . I remember i nc iden ta l ly ,

III

Mr. Pete r sen ' s r eac t ion when I t o ld him t h a t . He sa id ,

wel l ,

20

he sa id , Mr. Pres iden t ,

t h a t speaks very

wel l for you

as

a

2 man but not

very

wel l for you as Pres iden t .

But

in any

22 event , even though I st ll had confidence in both Ehrlichman

23

and Haldeman

even though

I bel ieved t h a t

t

would be

wrong

for

these

men two

o f the

th ree top men the

o ther

being

25

Kiss inger ,

in my

admin i s t r a t ion

in

the White

House

to

t ake

HOOV R

R PORTING CO. INC

320 Massachusetts

venu

, N.E

Washington D C .20002

202) 546

6666

-


6/49

122

1 a

l eave

o f

absence

or to be

f i r ed based s imply

on

2

fragmentary

test imony

which

Mr.

Kleindiens t

had

shown

to

3 me and Mr. Petersen had shown to me, never theless in

my

4 own

mind, as

a

r e a l i s t ,

I knew

t h a t

we

probably

had to face

5 up to it and t h a t I

might have

to make

t h a t

dec is ion , and

6 Mr.

Rebozo and

I t a lked qu i te f rankly ,

as

a mat te r of

7

custom - -

we

are

f ree

with each

o ther , and t h i s may sound

8 qu i te incred ib le to

t h i s

group, but

maybe it

won t ,

but

I

9 asked him a quest ion - - I sa id , how much have I got i n the

10

bank.

He sa id I d o n t know why

you

ask,

you

have th ree

11

hundred thousand do l l a r s in

CD s.

He sa id . ~ 1 ; ' h y . ?

12

I sa id ,

wel l ,

if I have to ask Haldeman and

13

Ehrl ichman to r es ign , these men

both

came here without much

14

o f

t h i s

wor ld s

goods, both have

made

a grea t s ac r i f i ce ,

Hi

both have l a rge f ami l ies , most

o f

them in col lege

o r

Hi

going

to co l lege ,

and jus t

to

cu t them loose l i k e t h i s ,

a f t e r

17

what

I cons idered to be devoted service? not only in

t h i s

18

campaign

but in t he i r case going back from

the

t ime

the

y

1 1

were

in

co l lege ,

when

I

f i r s t ran for Vice

Pr es iden t

in 1952,

20

tha t

I thought I had an ob l iga t ion and I would l i k e

to

be

21

able to

t e l l them t h a t

I

would

help out

with

regard to

t he i r fees .

22

23

Rebozo said

almost

emphat ica l ly , I would say ,

yet

not

in de t a i l ,

he sa id , don t worry about

it He sa id ,

24

you

shou ldn t

use your

money fo r

t h a t purpose.

He sa id , I

25

HOOV R

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320 Massachusetts Avenu

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loon


7/49

123

1 have

some l e f t from the 1972

campaign

t h a t

I

th ink

we

can

2

make

ava i lab le for

th i s

purpose,

and he

sa id ,

between

3

Abplanalp and myself

we

can

ge t th ree

hundred thousand

4

do l la r s ,

I am

sure . That was

the ex ten t o f

t h a t

conversa t ion

5

as

f a r

as

t h i s

par t icu la r

mat te r

was concerned.

6 I

should

add, i nc iden ta l ly , t ha t

I

d i dn ' t

ask

Mr.

7

Rebozo

what

he

had

l e f t

o r from whom he

and Abplanalp

would

8

be able to

s o l i c i t

con t r ibu t ions . I did

know

.atthat

t ime

9

t h a t

he

did

have

a

hundred

thousand

do l l a r s in

cash

which he

10 had rece ived from Howard Hughes. I had been

informed

of

11

t h a t

shor t ly

a f t e r the e lec t ion , as I r eca l l , the 72

12

e lec t ion , al though

it may have been contr ibuted much ea r l i e r ,

13

and so

consequent ly

in th i s conversa t ion,

as

I look a t it

14

now,

on the 7 t ~ I

was re f lec t ing

on the

fac t

t ha t

they

15

could count

on

me, tha t

I would have done it personal ly if

Hi

Rebozo

hadn ' t promised,

o r a t l ea s t ind ica ted he

could

17

do it t h a t they could

count

on

me to help

out with

what I

18

knew

would be

very s ign i f ican t l ega l

fees .

IH

You

wil l note , of

course ,

from the t r a n s c r ip t

20

t ha t , to t he i r c r ed i t ,

both of

them

refused.

21

Q

So

then

the re fe rence you made in t h a t f i r s t

22

paragraph

to the f igure

two

to th ree hundred

thousand

23

do l l a r s

was

a re fe rence to a

combinat ion

of

some funds;

24

namely,

the Hughes one hundred

thousand

do l l a r s which you

25

knew Mr. Rebozo a l ready

had,

plus

some

funds t h a t he had

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/

. ,

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r r r r


8/49

1

24

1

l ed you to

be l i e ve

in your conve r sa t ion t ha t he could r a i s e

2

between himse l f and Robert

Abplanalp .

A

He ment ioned Abplanalp

and only Abplanalp as

I

4

r e c a l l .

5

Q

So then a l l o f

t h i s money

was not in

hand?

6

Some of t he

money

represented

by

the

f igu re two

to

th ree

7

hundred thousand do l l a r s

was ye t to

be

r a i s ed

in

t he

future?

8

A Yes on the 15th , when

we

were

d i sc uss ing it

on

9

the

boa t .

And

I

should

add

to

t ha t

I was aware

a t

t h a t

10

t ime t ha t I had a hundred

thousand

do l l a r s which Mr.

11

Andreas had

c on t r i bu t e d .

I cannot t ll you now

t ha t when

I

12 .

used the f igure two

o r

th ree

hundred thousand

do l l a r s

t ha t

I

13

was r e f e r r i n g s pe c i f i a l l y

t o t he

Hughes money the Andreas

14

money o r

to

a l l , bu t I knew t ha t we had two hundred

15 thousand

do l l a r s fo r

su re .

'O.f course ,

as

I po in t out l a t e r ,

Hi

if a v a i l a b l e what do I say on

t ha t

page? I say,

fo r

17

example

t h a t

very

substa .n ti a l , t h a t

Bebe

co u l d , we

cduld ,

18

if

t h i s

i s a v a i l a b l e .

The reason

apparent ly

t ha t

I must have

sa id

t ha t

was my

thought t ha t

bo th

the

Andreas and the Hughes

20

money

l e f t

over

from

the campaign

should

be thrown i n t o the

21

7 4

campaign. That was my plan . But

with

t h i s c r i s i s

with

22

which

we

were

conf ronted ,

I

was

prepared

to

see

if

the

donor

23

would

agree

to

a l low

them to be used

fo r

t h i s

purpose .

24

Q

Then

the

phrase on

page 53 the second page o f

25 t h i s

Exhibi t

N o . 1 ,

-

quote

-

if t h i s i s

ava i l ab le -

end

KOOVER REPORTING CO IN

.

320 Massachusetts Avenu1 N.E.

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2 2

?n J\

E;IIC

ct:.


9/49

125

1

quote

-

r e a l l y

meant

t h a t i f

the

donors would agree

to

2

a

change

o f

purpose?

3

A

Yes, the

donors would have

to

agree

to it r

4

cou ldn t

t ake t he i r

money t h a t they

had

given for

campaign

5

purposes and

give it

to

somebody, to , you know, members

o f

6

my

s t a f f without

permiss ion

of the

donors.

7

Q

Was the re any o ther problem with regard to

8

whether

the money

would

be ava i lab le for

use by Mr.

9

Haldeman o r

Mr.

Ehrlichman fo r lega l f ees , as ide

from

t he

10

n e ~ i n g

permiss ion

from

the two

donors,

Andreas and

11

Hughes?

12

A

I d i d n t consider

tha t

then'

was

any

o ther

problem

13

Q

None of the money had been spent?

14

A

The Andreas m o n e y ~

15

Q

Or

the

Hughes money?

Hi

A

Or

the Hughes

money,

no,

but

l e t me

say

when

we

17 are

ta lk ing

about t h i s , we have

to

keep

the

t ime

frame.

I

18 knew t h a t none

of the

Andreas money had been

spen t ,

had not

HI been spent , because

on March

21

in

the a f te rnoon I had asked

20

Miss Woods to

go

down to the sa fe and

see

how

much

the

21 Andreas con t r ibu t ion was. I

h a d n t

even known

up

to

t h a t

22 t ime.

I

hadn t given

it a thought . It h a d n t been spen t .

23 I t

had been

given

in the f a l l o f '71. It

was

to

be

pr iva te ,

M for the reason tha t he was a Humphrey suppor te r

and

d i dn t wa t

25 it known, and

it was to

be used

a t

my d i sc re t ion

and

I f e l t

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_

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10/49

1 6

1 we

would

use it

if there

was a

need

for

t

in a

l a s t -minu te

2

b l i t z

in

the

campaign. But

iss Woods

a t

my

request

went

3

down to the sa fe . She

counted

it and came back

and

4

i nc iden ta l ly

she

was smarter than some o ther

people

she

5

must have thought the p lace was

bugged

because

she handed

6

me a

shee t

o f

paper

a littl shee t a note

say ing

one

7

hundred thousand

do l la r s so I

knew

tha t . As

fa r

as the

8

Hughes money

was

concerned

I assumed tha t t

had not been

9 spen t

a t tha t

time because

Mr.

Rebozo had never

ind ica ted

10 to me t ha t

he had

ever

used

any

par t of the Hughes money

11

I s t h a t

respons ive

to your question?

12

Q

Yes

it

i s s i r .

13

Now l e t us

move to another

par t

o f th i s

same

14 exh ib i t

and

I

would

l ike to

d i r ec t

your a t ten t ion to the

15 f i r s t page of the

exh ib i t

which is page number 52 of the

\

] i

t r ans c r i p t to the

next

to the l a s t paragraph. Would you

17

j u s t read

tha t to yoursel f s i r and

then

I

am

going to ask

18 you a number 6f quest ions about

t ha t .

I

II

A

The

next

to

the l a s t

paragraph?

20

Q

Well t i s r e a l l y the

l a s t

paragraph where

21

anything

i n t e l l i g ib l e

i s sa id .

22

A

Yes.

Let

me

say f i r s t

tha t I have very

grave

23

doubts

as

to

the

accuracy

of the t r a n s c r ip t

in

th i s in s tance .

24

25

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As

you w i l l note

th i s i s an

EOB

tape. As

you wil l

note

in

the

f i r s t

paragraph

unin te l l ig ib le

appears

four

d i f f e r e n t


11/49

127

1

t imes , and in t h i s case

I

don ' t

:

know - -

I

w i l l be glad to

2

respond

to any quest ions t h a t you

have with

regard to t h i s

except

where it

says s tu t te r ing .

4

Q Sir , l e t

me

focus

on the f i r s t sentence ,

5

p lease . There, accarding to the t r anscr ip t ,

you

say

-

6

quote

- no s t r a i ns ,

doesn

t come out of me - '-

-

)5 didn

t

. - - I

7

never

intended to

use

the money

a t

a l l

-

end quote .

8 My quest ion

i s what

were

you r e f e r r ing to

whe n

9

you

sa id

the

money

".

?

10 A

Well,

I

was

r e f e r r ing

there to the money t h a t

had

11 been contr ibuted by f inancia l cont r ibutors .

I

mean the re

12

seems to be a r a the r genera l f ee l ing candida tes who have

13 surpluses conver t

money in to t he i r

own use . I have

never

14

done

t ha t and

t h a t i s

.

what

I

was re f lec t ing here .

15

Q

So then t h a t reference i s again

to the

Andreas

j

money and

the

Hughes

money?

17

A

That i s

cor rec t .

18

Q

Now

in the

next sentence you continue your

1 1

thoughts saying

-

quote

-

as

a mat te r

of fac t ,

I

to ld

Bebe

20

bas ica l ly

be sure

t ha t people , l ike ,

who

have contr ibuted

21

money

over the

con t r ibu t ing

years

are

favored, and so

22

fo r th ,

in genera l -

end quote . Now

in

tha t por t ion when

23

you use

the re fe rence to

money,

people

who

have contr ibuted

24

money

over

the con t r ibu t ing year s ,

what

money were you

r e f e r r ing to then?

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I

1

A

Well

I

was

r e f e r r ing the re more genera l ly

to

2

money

t h a t

might

be

r a i s ed

by

Mr.

Rebozo

o r

anyone

e l s e ,

for t h a t mat te r , but in h i s

case

t would be money

tha t

4 would

have

been con t r ibu ted . As

far

as the

favored

and

so

5 f.orth .

1rr

genera l I want to be

qu i t e ca t egor i ca l

on

6 t ha t .

That has no

re fe rence

to

Government

con t r ac t s ; t has

7 no re fe rence

whatsoever

to a

favor

in

terms

o f something t h a t

8 would

involve

a pay-of f , but what t r e f e r s to i s t ha t ,

and

9

t h i s i s

again

to

the

grea t

c r e d i t

o f

my

f r i end

Rebozo

i s

10

tha t he

t h a t

a l l

he ever asked for ,

excep t

for

one

place

11

where I w i l l

i n d i c a t e

a d i f f e r ence , t o people who had

12

con t r ibu ted

was fo r inv i ta t ions , for example to White House

13

dinners , i n v i t a t i o n s

to

church se rv ices ,

poss ib ly

14 cons iderat ion in the even t somebody

was

to be

on de lega t ions

15

to

go to

funera l

o r something

o f

t h a t s o r t

of th ing , and I

Hi d o n t even remember

t h a t

he ever asked for

any o f

t h a t .

17 There

i s one

except ion, however t h a t I

t h ink you

should

be

18

aware of . One of

the

major

con t r ibu to r s

t h a t Mr. Rebozo

19

I th ink , was

responsible

for , al though I am not

sure

t h a t

20 in th i s ins tance - - I

t h ink

he urged

the

individual

to

21

con t r ibu te - - I am

not sure t ha t

he got

the

con t r ibu t ion

and

22

t ransmit ted t himse l f , was Mr. Raymond Guest . Raymond

Guest was

a

persona l f r i end

o f h is and I th ink

Mr.

Gue

s t was

24

a

very

good f r i end o f

h is , and

he

con t r ibu ted ,

I

th ink, two

25

hundred f i f t y thousand do l la r s .

He

had been as

you

may

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129

1

r e c a l l P r e s i d e n t

Kennedy s

Ambassador to

I r e l a n d and t

was

2

h is

g r e a t

g r e a t

des i r e

to

be

made

Ambassador

to

France ,

3

and

the

only

t ime

t h a t . I can ever r e c a l l Mr. Rebozo

4

ever asked me fo r something o f t h a t s o r t o r

asked

o r

5

suggested

anyth ing - - he

simply

sugges ted

t h a t

Raymond

G uest;

6

ought

to be cons idered

t h a t

he

was a good man,

and in view

7

of the f ac t he

had

been

Ambassador,

t h a t he

was a

8

Democrat ,

t h a t t would

be a very good appointment . We did

9

not

make the

appointment .

10

Q

I

appr ec i a t e your

c la r i fy ing

the

meaning

of

11

t h a t

p a r t of the

sen tence

and before

we l eave

t h a t po in t

12 ,

l e t

me

j u s t

ask

these

two

ques t ions .

13

I t ake

t

t h a t

to your

kno\ ,

Tedge the re was no

14

occas ion

on

which Mr. Rebozo ever

reques ted o f you o r anyone

15

in t he admini s t r a t i on any

favor

on beha l f of a con t r ibu to r

] j

which would in

any

way be

improper.

17

A

There are

none,

to my knowledge,

as

f a r

as

h is

18

reques t ing

me. As a

mat te r of f a c t

l e t me say Mr.

Michel ,

19

he was scrupulous in

t h a t

regard.

He

sa id

t h a t people used

20

21

22

23

24

25


320 Massachusetts Avenul NE

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to come to

him,

because everybody knew he

was

my c l o se s t

f r i end

and

ask for t h i s and t h a t and the o ther

t h ing

and

he would

j u s t

say

go through channel s and

he would

put them

through channel s .

Let

me say t h a t I should be sure t h a t

t he r e

i s

a

c l e a r

unders tanding

o f what

I

have t e s t i f i e d t o t h a t s ince


14/49

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25

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130

see ing t h i s t r a n s c r ip t

and

t ry ing to

r e f r e s h

my r o l l t i o n

I have no notes , - and I am sure Mr.

Rebozo was

q u i t e

disappointed

t h a t I

even t a lked

about

such

a

th ing

as favors

without

c la r i fy ing it

as

I have

today,

but t he po in t i s t h a t

when you say do

you

know for sure

t h a t

you were th ink ing

o f

t h i s or tha t ,

and

the answer

i s

I

assumed

t h a t t h a t

i s

what

I

must have

been th inking about , because t h a t

was

a t

t h a t t ime, I

knew

about

the

Hughes

money and

I

knew

about

t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r money

and

I

knew

t h a t

Mr.

Rebozo sa id

o r

assured me t h a t

he and

Abplanalp could

r a i s e

it

but t he

conversa t ion we

had

on the Sequoia was one t h a t was

very

genera l

and

whenever

he

made

an

assurance he

usua l ly

would

come through

on

it.

Q

Very

wel l .

Now

you

have

made

very c lea r t ha t

the re fe rence

t h a t you

had

o r

your

meaning

in

the

second

p a r t of t h a t

sentence

in terms of the word

favor

, but I

am

not

sure

I

unders tand

with a t

l ea s t

equal

c l a r i t y the

e a r l i e r

ha l f o f the sentence

where

you

r e f e r

to people

who

have

con t r ibu ted

money over the

con t r ibu t ing yea r s .

When you made

the

s ta tement people who have

con t r ibu ted

money over

the

con t r ibu t ing

yea r s ,

was t h a t

money

t h a t you had

re fe rence

to

t he

Hughes

money

and

the

Andr

money or o ther

money

a l ready

in

hand o r was it a re fe rence

to

money to

be

obta ined

in the fu tu re , o r

a combinat ion

of the two?


15/49

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25

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A

No, ac tua l ly t h i s

was,

as

you

can tell

from the

sentence ,

it

s

bas ica l ly

very

uns t r uc tu r ed

and

it

s

a

combinat ion of d i s jo in ted

mat te r s

t h a t I

was

r e f e r r ing

to .

I

w a s n t

r e f e r r ing

to

people t h a t might con t r ibu te

to

a

fund

n

the fu ture

t h a t

we would do favors fo r , o r I

w a s n t

r e f e r r ing to any

o ther ,

or I was not r e f e r r ing to

a n y o n e spec i f ica l ly , I should say , a n y o n e s p e c i f i c a l l y .

Q

But

do

you

r e c a l l

whether you were

r e f e r r ing

to

money

t h a t

had

a l ready been

received?

A

I have answered t h a t

ques t ions .

Q

I

t h ink you answered it but

I

d o n t

unders tand

whether the answer a l so

app l ies

to t h i s por t ion o f t he

conversa t ion.

A I

th ink , Mr.

Michel ,

and

you as a very

good

lawyer know t h a t you have to

read a whole conversa t ion

and

then

put it n

con tex t ,

and you obviously have

had

an

oppor tuni ty to do t h a t . What I

am

say ing s

what

I r e c a l l

and what I r e c a l l s

the

conversa t ion t h a t I

r e f e r r e d

to

and

t h a t it s the bes t

o f

my r eco l l ec t ion t h a t I must have been

th inking about

t he

Hughes con t r ibu t ion ,

the

Davis

con t r ibu t ion

- -

I am

so r ry , the Andreas con t r ibu t ion .

Q Did

you knov

a t

t h i s po in t n

t ime o f

any o ther monies ,

t h a t s

o ther than Hughes

money,

t h a t

Mr.

Rebozo

had

l e f t

over from

~ h

72

r e - e l ec t ion

campaign?

(Conference with counsel o f f

the

record. )


16/49

13

2

1

MR. MICHEL:

Let

t he record

note tha t

we confer red

2

with

t he

witness '

counsel

and

an

agreement has been

reached

3

to defe r

the

ques t ion t h a t

was l a s t

asked un t i l a l a t e r

t ime

4

so t h a t the re w i l l be more oppor tuni ty fo r

everyone

5

involved

to be prepared ,

and

I w i l l proceed

with

the nex t

6

ques t ion .

7

BY MR. MICHEL:

8

Q

Sir , still

in the same

paragraph

of Exhibi t

1 ,

9

the

f ina l sentence as

you

see reads as fol lows quote

10

and

he ' s used

to

it

fo r

the purpose of ge t t ing

t h ings

11

ou t ,

paid

fo r

in check

and

a l l t h a t s o r t

o f

t h ing .

12

.

NOW

s i r , do you r e c a l l making any such

s t a t e -

13

ment in your conversa t ion

with Haldeman

and

Ehrlichman?

14

A

No I d o n ' t

r e c a l l

making such a s ta tement .

15

Q

Do you r e c a l l

being

aware a t the

t ime

i

A

I be l ieve I

know

what it

means

but I don ' t

r eca l

17

making it

18

Q

Can you

expla in what you th ink

it

means?

1 l A

Well

Mr.

Rebozo

had a

f e t i s h

for ge t t ing what

20

he

thought

were good

columns

and

so

fo r th

reproduced

and

21

mai l ing

to

h i s f r iends around

the

count ry .

That i s what

22

he

means

by

ge t t ing

t h ings ou t , and t he

paid

fo r by

check

23

I

th ink , ac tua l ly

i s

- -

it must be

- -

if I sa id t ha t ,

if t h a t

M i s an accura te p a r t of the tape, t h a t .

i s

one th ing , but

25 c e r t a i n l y it

i s n ' t

what I meant o r what I

t o ld

them

because

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17/49

13 3

1

what I do say , or did say , o r I mean what I know i s

and

2

what t hey knew i s t h a t Mr. Rebozo was a check

picke r - upe r .

3

He

paid checks .

He

paid

checks for

members

of the

s t a f f ;

he

4

paid

them fo r the Secre t Service when he

thought

t h a t the

5

al lowance was not

big

enough,

and he did a

grea t

number of

6

t h ings

l i k t h a t , but I d i dn ' t know whether

Mr.

Rebozo was

7

paying

by check when he did t h i s ,

or ,

for t h a t mat te r , by

8

cash. I t h ink what I sa id

here ac tua l ly was

t h a t he

paid

9

checks ,

and

so

fo r th , which they a l l knew because whenever

10

we went to Key

Biscayne

he

was,

f rankly ,

qu i t e

generous

11

with members

of the

s t a f f

and

par t icu la r ly with

the Secre t

12

Service .

13

Q

And in the phrase , and h e ' s used it, can you

14

r e c a l l what you were r e f e r r ing to in say ing , he ' s

used

15

i t ? Is t h a t r e f e r r ing to

the

money

tha t

he

had o r what

Hi

i s it r e f e r r i n g to?

17

A

I th ink what I was r e f e r r ing to the re

was

the - -

18 As you wi l l r e c a l l

- -

I

t h ink

t

i s

some place in

t he

1 1

papers

you fu rn i shed us - - the re was a

balance

l e f t a f t e r the

20 '68 campaign in which

he and

Mr. Kalmbach worked

out

ar range-

21 ments

as

to

how

much

would be used

here

and how much would

22 be

used

the re

to

t ake

care o f these var ious

expenses

t h a t

23 I am

here

t a lk ing about ,

and

I th ink

t h a t

i s

what I am

24

r e f e r r ing

to

t he re .

I know what I

was not

r e f e r r ing

to .

25 I

was not r e f e r r ing

to the

Hughes money.

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13

1 Q

Now

the examples you gave of th ings

Mr.

Rebozo

2

according

to

your r eco l l ec t ion , pa id for on behalf of

3

Secret Service

men

and others around you

were

they paid

4 fo r in

the

form of

cash normally?

5

A As I sa id , I

d o n t

know

whether

he

- -

he was

6 not

one

of those

f lamboyant people

who did it in

f ront

of

7

you.

He

usua l ly

would

go

over to

the manager t ake him

8

aside , and t ake care of it and then the people would know

9

the

checks

were

paid .

He

has

done

t h a t

ever

s ince

I

have

10 known him. He

i s one

of

those unusual

people

t h a t you have

11

to run

f a s t

to pay

a

check

when he

i s around.

12

Q

And

whether he paid such expenses in the

form

13

of a

check

o r

cash

do you

know

t :

he source of

the

funds

14

he used to pay

fo r any such

expenses?

15

A

I

know t h a t the source was no t , and

the

case

](

i

was not

the

Hughes mone

y

to which you

have

r e f e r r ed .

I

know

17

tha t the source t h a t one

source

I

be l ieve was the

amount

18

which was l e f t over

a f t e r

68, which was i nc iden ta l ly ,

11

a

somewhat modest

amount. I

r a the r thought it was grea te r

20

than

t ha t , bu t it

was seven thousand do l la r s , as

I r eca l l .

21

Actua l ly I would

have to say t h a t

I

don t

kn ow

22

what

the

source i s , but

I

am speculat ing now

which

23

apparent ly you

are asking

me

to do.

Q Would

it

ref resh your r eco l l ec t ion

i I

suggested

24

to

you

t h a t a l l

o f

the

th ings

t h a t Mr. Rebozo expended the

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135

1

funds r e f e r r ed to in h i s correspondence

with

Kalmbach,

2

which was l e f t over

68

money, are accounted fo r and t h a t

3

none

of

those

expendi tures

were inc luding th ings

l i k e

4

dinners or o ther

i nc iden ta l

out l ays o f

t h a t

s o r t . They

5

were

a l l to pay b i l l s t h a t had come in from p r in t e r s o r

6

photographers?

7

A I

was

not aware o f t ha t .

8

Q

And

t h a t

does

not r e f r esh

your r eco l l ec t ion

9

then

as

to whether

he

could have used t h a t l e f t - o v e r

68

10

money for

t he kind of

expenses

you have t e s t i f i e d

to?

11

A I f your

i nves t iga t ion has indicated t h a t t

12

was

used

for t h a t purpose, then t

could

'not

have

been

13

used fo r t h i s

purpose,

but what o ther

source

he

might have

14

I

am

not

prepared

to

say .

I am

only saying

t h a t he did pay

15

checks

and

he did ge t

t h ings ou t , and t

i s very poss ib le

I ii

he

could have, t h a t

the

source could

have

been h i s own

17

money.

18

Q

But

you

d o n t know?

19

A

I

am

not

prepared

to say. I

d o n t know.

I

20 d o n t know.

21

Q

Now

you

t e s t i fi e d e a r l i e r tha t

- - I

be l ieve

you

22

t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r t h a t

some

t ime,

you

t h ink

a f t e r

t he

1972

23 e lec t ion campaign,

Mr. Rebozo

o r someone

advised

you of the

M

exis tence o f the

one hundred thousand dol lars

t ha t the

25

Hughes

people had

con t r ibu ted

and t h a t Mr. Rebozo st ll had

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136

1

t Do

you

r e c a l l

the

ci rcumstance in which

you were

2

f i r s t

informed

about t h a t Hughes money being with Mr.

3

Rebozo

a t the

c lose

of the

campaign?

4

A

No, I

don t .

5

Q

Was t

Mr.

Rebozo who

t o ld

you?

G

A

Yes, Mr

Rebozo

t o ld

me.

7

Q

So the da te s

unc lear , but the re s no quest ion

8

t h a t

9

A Yes, he t o ld me, and I

t h ink

t was n Key

10

Biscayne

on

one

o f

the t r i p s I took the re

a f t e r t he

campaign

11

n 68,

but

I

c a n t

say fo r su re .

12

Q

Did he ind ica te to you the purpose fo r which

13

the

money had been given?

14

A The

money in - -

15

Q

The

Hughes

one

hundred

thousand

do l l a r s

t h a t

he

] i

t o ld you he st ll had a f t e r the campaign ended.

Did

he

17 i nd ica te

to you in

t h a t

conversa t ion what the money had

18 been

given for?

HI

A He

t o ld

me he

cons idered

the money to be given

20

fo r the

purpose

of

r e - e l ec t ion

of the

Pres iden t , even

21 though t had been

given as

ear ly

as 1970

- -

a t l ea s t some

22

of

t before

the

70 campaign

and

some

af te rwards .

Q

I t ake

t

t ha t p r i o r

to t h a t

conversa t ion,

M whenever t was

fo l lowing

the

e lec t ion , you had

no

idea

25

t h a t

Mr. Rebozo had rece ived any funds a t

a l l

from

Hughes?


32 Massachusetts

N


21/49

137

1

A

Well

when

you say

I

had

no idea, I

have to

2

t e s t i f y to the bes t o f

my

r eco l l ec t ion . The b e s t o f

my

3

r eco l l ec t ion again

i s

it was

shor t ly a f t e r

the campaign

4

t h a t

he t o l d me about it

5

Q

The ev idence t h a t we have gathered,

s i r ,

6

i n d i c a t e s t h a t the

Hughes

one hundred

thousand

do l l a r s was

7

de l ive r ed

to Mr. Rebozo on two d i f f e r e n t occas ions in

the

8

summer

o f 1970 in each

case f i f t y thousand do l l a r s in

9

cash , in each

case

de l ive r ed by

Richard

Danner.

Mr. Rebozo

10 has t e s t i f i e d t h a t promptly

a f t e r each

o f the two

11 d e l i v e r i e s in the summer o f 1970 he informed your secre ta ry ,

12 Rose Mary Woods t h a t he

had

rece ived t h i s money from

13 Hughes.

14 Can you r e c a l l any

di scuss ion between

you

and

15

Miss Woods in

which she made any

re fe rence

to Rebozo having

] i some money o r

having

some money from Hughes o r

anything

o f

17 t h a t so r t?

18

IH

20

21

22

24

25

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.

2

2

A No I cannot do t h a t . That may sound

su rp r i s ing ,

but it was

f rankly ,

our genera l prac t i ce tha t f inanc ia l

con t r ibu t ions

were

not

discussed with

me u n t i l

a f t e r the

campaign and to be

more respons ive

to your ques t ion ,

l e t

me

say

t h a t

I

c a n t r e c a l l

her ever

having

t o l d

me

about

it

You

unders tand

I am not

t ry ing to

duck

t h i s ,

but we

are

t a lk ing about even t s t h a t have occurred four ,


22/49

1

f ive years

ago,

and I am t ry ing to r eca l l

over

t h a t per iod

2

of t ime when I l ea rned

something.

I

simply

c a n ' t

t e l l

3

y My bes t r eco l l ec t ion s

what I am giving

you,

and

t ha t

4 s for the

f i r s t

t ime, was

informed

of t then. I do

5

not r e c a l l t h a t Miss

Woods

informed

me

of her

conversa t ions

j wi

th

Mr.

Rebozo.

7

Q

Let me t r y to as s i s t you

n

he lping r e c a l l

8 events from those former

years

by showing you a document

9

t h a t

has

been

marked

as

C-2.

10 (The

document

r e f e r r ed

to

was

11

marked

Exhibi t No.

C-2.)

for

i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )

12

.

BY

MR.

MICHEL:

1 8

13

Q

This document

s

from a fo lder en t i t l ed , Haldema

14 Notes, July-September, 1970, and

bears

the

date August

20,

15 and

the t ime

s igna tu re

of

0900,

fol lowed

by the

i n i t i a l s ,

Hi

AF-I ,

which,

I suppose,

re fe r s

to Air

Force

One, and a

17

discuss ion t ha t you had with Mr. Haldeman

aboard

the plane

a t t ha t

t ime

and

date .

HI At the bottom of t ha t page

appears

the hand-

20 wri t ten nota t ion , apparent ly in

Mr.

Haldeman's handwri t ing,

21

as follows

-

quote

- Kalmbach,

shoot

for

addi t ional f ive

22 hundred thousand, Hughes, Getty, e t ce te r a . Use Rebozo,

23

with the words, Kalmbach and ' addit ional

abbrevia ted,

as

24

wel l as the word thousand abbreviated .

25

Can

you

r e c a l l having any discuss ion about

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23/49

139

t h a t

t ime

with

Mr. Haldeman

concerning

any plan to

have

2

Mr.

Rebozo

a s s i s t

i n r a i s ing

funds

from

Mr.

Hughes and

3

for Mr. Kalmbach to be sen t to seek a con t r ibu t ion?

4

A Well as you w i l l note , th i s i s ,

of course ,

5

a

por t ion

o f a much

longer

list o f

people ,

and I do

r e c a l l

6

in

the

1970

per iod,

when we were t ry ing to r a i s e

the

money

7

for

the r e - e l ec t ion o f

some

sena to r s o r t he

e l e c t i o n

o f

8

sena to r s and congressmen

and governors as

wel l ,

t h a t we

9

were

t r y ing

to t ap every

source

t h a t we could .

10

As I r eca l l , he r a i s ed the pos s i b i l i t y

o f

Getty

11

and

the p o s s ib i l i t y

o f

Hughes o r I

might have

but I

12

suggested

t h a t we d i d n t have a big committee to r a i s e

13

money a t t h i s

t ime.

Mr. ~ l m b c h

was

doing

most

o f it

as

14

I r eca l l , in

t h a t

per iod

and

I

suggested tha t

any contacts

15

with

Getty

o r

Hughes should be handled

by Rebozo

with

l/i

Hughes

because I knew he

was

a

long-t ime

f r i end

o f

17

Danner s , and

with

Getty, because he

was

t he

only one in our

18

shop

t h a t knew Getty . And a l so , I

th ink

I

should

po in t out

1 1 as

f a r

as

Mr.

Getty

i s

concerned

I d o n t

r e c a l l whether

he

20

made a con t r ibu t ion

in

1970.

He may have

in 1972

but I

21

d o n t

know.

I d i d n t r e c a l l see ing

one.

22

Q

Well

the

sequel

i s

t h a t Mr. Kalmbach

has

23 s t a t ed t h a t

he did have a

meeting with

Mr.

Haldeman

in

which

24

he

was

requested to v i s i t Mr.

Getty

- -

A

He Kalmbach?

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24/49

140

1

Q

That Kalmbach was to v i s i t

Mr. Getty

and t h a t Mr.

2 Rebozo

was

to a s s i s t in

se t t ing

up the arrangements

and

3

t h a t subsequent ly

Mr. Kalmbach did

have

Mr. Rebozo s e t up

4 the

arrangements

and did meet

with Get ty

and

indeed

a

5

con t r ibu t ion

was for thcoming.

But

Kalmbach

a l so has

6 s t a t e d t h a t

7

A

At what

t ime

was

the

con t r ibu t ion? What

year?

8

Q

t was in

the f a l l o f

1970, in severa l i n s t a l l -

9

ments ,

and

dates

s t a r t i n g

September

26,

I

be l ieve

and

runnin

10 through mid-October fo r a t o t a l of

- -

11

A

Getty

did tha t?

12

Q

Yes, he d id but

Kalmbach has

a l so s t a t e d

t h a t

he

13

was

not

14

A

Not having

my

r ecor ds you see I am glad to

be

15

ref reshed

on

t h a t .

Hi

Q

Your

r eco l l ec t ion

i s

very

accurate .

Kalmbach

17

s t a t ed t h a t a l though he was asked by Haldeman to go see

18

Get ty as t h i s note sugges ts t h a t

he

was to

but

,t h a t

he

was

l l

not

asked

to

go

and

see

Hughes. At

t h i s

p o i n t which i s t he

20

week

fo l lowing

August

20, according to

the

bes t in fo rmat ion

21

we have

gathered

both

of the

Hughes d e l i v e r i e s had occur red

22

and the re fo re

t h a t Mr. Rebozo

had a l ready

rece ived

the one

hundred thousand.

23

24

My quest ion i s

whether t h a t

r e f reshes your

r eco l l ec t ion

as

to

whether

you had been

advised

o f Rebozo s

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25/49

j i

141

1

reques t of

money

from Hughes?

2

A

Well

I

would

say

on the con t r a ry .

r _

would

3

ref resh my r eco l l ec t ion

to

the e f f ec t t h a t

I d i d n t

know

4

t h a t he

had a l ready

received money from Hughes. I w o u l d n t

5

have ind ica ted to Haldeman to have him go ge t

some money

6

from Hughes

if

Hughes had

a l ready

con t r ibu ted .

7

Are you t e l l i ng me

t h a t Hughes had

a l ready

8

cont r ibuted?

9

Q

He had a l ready con t r ibu ted .

10

A

Then what does th i s mean

to

you?

11

Q

Well

I d o n t know

what

it means

and

t h a t

i s

12 why I am asking, but the

sequence i s tha t

the second

Hughes

13

in s ta l lmen t apparent ly was de l ivered

some t ime during the

14 day o f

August

20 and a t nine

in

the morning on

August

20

15 was

when you apparent ly had

the

conversa t ion

with

Mr

1 ; Haldeman

d i r ec t ing him to

have Kalmbach

v i s i t

Hughes

and

17 Getty.

18

A

J u s t

a

moment.

t

says

- - I d o n t mean you are

19

pu t t ing words in my mouth but you are not reading the

20 t r a n s c r ip t accura te ly . t

says

Hughes and

Getty

and

a l l

21 use

Rebozo.

22

Q

Yes.

Well

in

any

event ,

I t ake

it

you

are r a the

23 sure tha t

you had

not been informed

by

Haldeman o r

anyone

~ e l se

about

Rebozo having rece ived Hughes money in

t h i s

25 period?

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26/49

1 42

1

A

I

sa id to the

bes t

of my r eco l l ec t ion

I

had not

2

been informed of

it and I th ink what you

have j u s t

sa id

with

3

regard

to the

fac t

t h a t

the

con t r ibu t ions had already been

4 made, I

d o n t

know why I

would

say

to

him use Rebozo,

if I

5 a l ready

knew

from

Rebozo t h a t he had a l ready s o l i c i t ed

6

contr ibut ions.

7 I am not t ry ing to be

argumentat ive ,

but y

ou

are

8 t ry ing to

ge t

the

fac t s ,

and

t h a t s

the

way

I

would

9

i n t e r p r e t

it.

As a

mat te r

of

fac t ,

I am

su rp r i s ed

- -

did

10 Getty

r e a l l y give n

70?

11

Q

Yes, he d id .

12 .

A

He s

a

rea l

t ightwad.

13

Q

To t r y to a s s i s t fu r the r in r e f resh ing

your

14

reco l lec t ion ,

I

would l i k e

to show you

j u s t

quickly

two

15

newspaper

a r t i c l e s which

appeared n

the

WASHINGTON

POST .

]

j

The

f i r s t

which s

marked C-3

i s

a

column

- -

17

A

Are these

columns

by

Mr.

Anderson1 Mr. M

i che l

18

are you

using tha t as the bas i s of evidence?

1 1

Q

No, s i r . No,

s i r .

A Mr.

Anderson and

h i s

predecessor Mr.

Pearson,

20

21

have s landered and l i be led me fo r twenty- f ive years , and

22

I

have

never digni f ied

anything they have sa id . I f you

23

have quest ions

about

t h i s , you

ask

me

ques t ions , but

I

am

not going to respond

to

an

Anderson

column.

I

d o n t mean

to

24

seem i r a t e , but perhaps

you would

f ee l

the

same - -

25

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27/49

1

2

3

4

Q

BY MR MICHEL:

(The

document

r e f e r r ed

to

was

marked Exhibi t

No. C-3.)

for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n .

1

43

I

w a ~ n t

suggest ing the in fo rmat ion was r e l i a b l e .

5 I s imply

wanted to

show you

the

columns because they ind ica te

6 tha t a t tempts had been made by

the

authors

to

con tac t

Mr

7

Rebozo,

unsuccessful

a t tempts , and

8

A

Mr. Rebozo had exact ly the same opinion o f Mr.

9

Anderson

t h a t

I

have.

10

Q

And my quest ion i s

whether

Mr. Rebozo ever

11 indica t ed to you t h a t he had

been

ca l led by anyone from t h i s

12 column?

13

A

I r e c a l l

no

conversa t ion

with

him. I only r e c a l l

4

genera l conversa t ions

with him over

the

years

where he sa id

15 tha t he

had the

same opinion

o f

Anderson tha t I had, t h a t

he

16

would

never

t a l k

to

him

about

any th ing .

17 Q

Now l e t me - -

18

A

Inc iden ta l ly , may I urge you, Mr.

Michel;

and

19 your

col leagues ,

and I am sure

you

w i l l ,

to

check

the r e l i a b i -

20

l i t y

on those , of Mr.

Anderson s columns,

in

terms of

not

21

only

the accusa tory

s ide

but a l so the f a c t

t h a t they

may not

22

be the o ther way a t a l l .

23

MR RUTH:

Let

me j u s t speak to

t h a t

po in t .

24

THE WITNESS: I am r e a l l y su rp r i s ed to have

you throw

25

an Anderson column

a t

me.


28/49

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

1

11

12

13

4

15

16

17

18

19

2

21

22

144

MR RUTH:

Let me ex p l a i n . This may

come

up ag a in .

It i s not , obv ious ly , f o r the t r u t h

o f

anyth ing

in a

column

b u t

it

i s

fo r t h e f a c t t h a t

a

column appeared and

to t r y

to

stir

your

r e c o l t e c t i o n , if

p o s s i b l e ,

as to whether t he r e was

any

d i s cu s s i o n

among you

and

your ad mi n i s t r a t i o n , because

o f

the

appearance o f such

a

column

r eg a rd l e s s

o f

whether

the column

itself

i s

t r u e

o r f a l s e . We

d o n t use

t h e column

as

ev idence

o f

anyth ing because ,

b e l i ev e

me we

have had

the

same e x p e r i e n c ~ p o s s i b l y

THE WITNESS: Well

let me say and

I be l i ev e y

ou

w

ill

9 t

i n t o

t h i s

tomorrow

b u t t h e re

was

one i n s t an ce in o u r s t a f f

t h a t

we had g o t t en i nvolved

wi th a

Jack

Anderson

column

Otherwise I

co n s i d e r him to be so t o t a l l y

u n r e l i a b l e

t h a t

we

w o u l d n t bo ther

t o g e t i nvolved w i th

a

Jack

Anderson

column.

Most

o f

it i s

u n t ru e .

Now

o f

c o u r se

ifitwas

in

THE NEW

YORK

TIMES

o r

o f

course

THE WASHINGTON

POST we would have r an r i g h t

away and

done

something about it

The POST i n c i d e n t a l l y

to its c r e d i t , p u t Mr.

Anderson on the page

wi th

t h e funny

p ap e r s .

BY

MR MICHEL:

Q

You

had

r e c a l l e d fo r

us

e a r l i e r

t h e

co n v er sa t i o n you

had

wi th Mr. Rebozo

on

Apr i l 15

on

your t r i p

on the Sequoia , and

I

would l i k e

to

p ick up on t he p er io d

immedia te ly fo l lowing t h a t .

We have

i n f o r ma t io n t h a t in

the


29/49

145

1 l a s t week of April Mr.

Kalmbach

ca l l ed Mr.

Rebozo

and s e t

2 an appointment to

meet

him a t the

f i r s t

oppor tuni ty when the

3 would both be in Washington

and

tha t on April 30

a t

the

4 Whi t e

House

Mr. Kalmbach did meet with Mr. Reboz.o

and

5 according

to

our information a t the ou t se t

o f

the

meeting

6 Mr.

Kalmbach

said tha t he wanted to t a l k to Mr. Rebozo

7

because

you had suggested tha t he

do

so and tha t the

8

sub jec t

he wanted to confer

with

Mr. Kalmbach about was the

9

Hughes money.

1

Now the ques t ion i s do you

r eca l l asking

Mr.

11

Rebozo

to confer with Herbert

Kalmbach

about anything

12

re la t ing to

the

Hughes money?

13

I th ink Mr. Michel you bet t e r

r e s t a t e

your

4 ques t ion because i f I have l i s tened to you cor rec t ly and

15 the r epor t e r can read it you have said Mr. Kalmbach

sa id

16 tha t I had asked Mr.

Kalmbach to

t a lk

to

Mr.

Rebozo.

17

Now what i s i t ? Which i s i t ? Now you are saying Mr.

18

Rebozo

did I ask Mr. Rebozo to t a lk to Mr. Kalmbach which

19

i s qu i t e di f ferent .

I am sorry i f I misspoke.

,\

2

21

Q

I t i s easy. I mean I do it a l l of the t ime but

22

I jus t

want

to be sure I understand what

your

ques t ion

i s .

3

Q

Did

you ask Mr.

Rebozo

to confer with Herbert

Kalmbach

concerning the

Hughes

money?

25

A

Then you withdraw

your

f i r s t assumption tha t

I


30/49

2

3

asked

Mr.

Kalmbach to

see

Mr.

Rebozo?

Q

A

Yes,

sir

In o ther

words, your

ques t ion only i s o r i s

146

4 cor r ec t ed

to

whether I

asked Mr.

Rebozo

to t a l k

to

Mr.

5 Kalmbach?

6

7

8

9

10

12

13

4

15

16

17

18

19

2

21

22

23

24

25

Q

A

Q

A

Correc t .

Yes,

t h a t

i s

cor r ec t ,

I did .

What was

the

purpose

in

ask ing him to

do so?

The

purpose

was t h a t Mr. Rebozo

had

t o l d

me,

as we have e a r l i e r t e s t i f i e d ,

t h a t

he

had

t he

one

hundred

thousand do l l a r s l e f t from the

campaign ,

the Hughes

con t r ibu t ion ,

and he

wanted to know

what

to do with it

My

b e l i e f

was

t h a t

t h a t one hundred thousand , as

wel l as anyth ing e l s e t h a t we

had pe r sona l ly

under our

c o n t r o l ,

should be

used for

the 74 campaign. I the re fo re

sugges ted t h a t

Rebozo

t a l k to Kalmbach

and

g e t Kalmbach

to

see

whether he would

t ake the one hundred

thousand o r

adv ise

Rebozo how he could

put the one

hundred thousand

do l l a r s

i n to

the

74

campaign.

Now

the ques t ion

r a i ses

why

not g ive

it to

the

Nat ional

Committee .

--we

have gone

through

t h i s a little

ea r l i e r - - o r why

not in

some

o ther a rea ,

because what I

was plann ing to do

in 74 was

exac t ly what we

had

done in

70 ,

was to

s e t up

a separa te fund fo r t he e l e c t i o n o f

candida tes , and

so fo r th , in

which I

could

have,

along

with


31/49

1 4 7 -14

my assoc ia t es , some con t ro l over

t he i r

d i sbur sa l so tha t the

2

money wouldn t

be

wasted as

both

the

Democratic and

3

Republican National

Committees

usual ly waste t he i r money

4 on a

l o t

o f

l o s ~ r s al though

I

must say

we d i d n t pick many

5

winners th i s l a s t t ime.

6

Q

Mr. Kalmbach

has s ta ted tha t

a t the

meet ing,

7

ac tua l ly

the

f i r s t

of

two meetings they had

on consecut ive

8

days which apparent ly were

Apr i l

30 and

May

1 , 1973, tha t

9

Mr.

Rebozo

t o ld

Mr. Kalmbach tha t ,

he,

Rebozo, had

given

10 some

of

the Hughes money

to F .

Donald

Nixon, . to

Rose Mary Woods,

to

Edward C.

Nixon,

and o ther s . Did

M

r .

12 Rebozo

ever make any such

r epor t

to you?

13

A

Well, on t h a t p a r t i c u l a r point ,

t ha t came to

4 my a t ten t ion and

the publ ic

a t ten t ion , as

you may r eca l l ,

15 Mr. Michel

very dramatical ly . In t h i s case

not

in Mr.

16 Anderson s

column

but

in THE

NEW

YORK

TIMES

in 1974,

very

17

ear ly

in

1974, - -

Nixon

kin receives sec re t Hughes

money,

18

or

words

to

tha t

e f f ec t .

I

19

I did pay

a t ten t ion

to

t h a t

s to ry , and I

asked

2

Mr.

Rebozo about it

He

to ld

me ca tegor i ca l ly ,

f i r s t , tha t

21 he

had

never t o ld

Mr.

Kalmbach t h a t

he had

given money to

22

Don Nixon, Ed Nixon o r

Rose Mary

Woods,

and

t ha t t ha t

was

a

fa lse

s ta tement .

Second,

I

went fu r the r ,

however,

and

I

asked my

25

brother Don,

I

asked

my bro ther Ed, and

I

asked Rose Mary


32/49

149

1

Woods, the

f i r s t two

by

phone and

t he o the r

by, as I

2

r eca l l the o ther person Miss W p o d ~ persona l ly whether

o r

3

not Mr. Rebozo had ever given them any money,

and

I am not

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

12

13

4

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

r e f e r r ing j u s t

to

Hughes money; and

t he i r

answer

was,

no.

Now, i nc iden ta l ly

when

I

say any money, i f Mr.

Rebozo gave Miss Woods a g i f t

o r something o f

t h a t s o r t

o r

my bro ther s

I doubt

i f

he would

have

done t h a t

- -

he

might

have, he might

have

picked

t he i r checks

up, too - -

t h a t i s

something

d i f f e r e n t

but

we

are t a l k i n g about the

Hughes

money and the Kalmbach a l l ega t ion .

Rebozo

says

it i s

t o t a l l y f a l s e ; Miss Woods den ied

it

to

me persona l ly and

my bro ther Don and my bro ther Ed h a ~

den ied it to

me

persona l ly and t h a t .

i s a i l

I can

tell

you about

it

Q Now l e t

me ask you to

look quick ly a t

two

o r

th ree

more br ie f

por t ions o f

t r ansc r ip t s

o f

tapeP conversa-

t i o n .

The f i r s t

i s

des ignated

Exhibi t

No. C-6, and it

r e f l e c t s

the

t r a n s c r ip t

page

112

o f

the t r a n s c r ip t o f a

t ape o f a conversa t ion Apr i l

25,

1973, from 11:06 a .m. to

1:55 p.m. a conversa t ion i nc lud ing in add i t ion to yourse l f

Mr. Haldeman and Mr. Ehrlichman.

A

Yes.

BY MR MICHEL:

the document

r e f e r r e d

to was

.

1 :

I

~ . ~ .

;

,...,.,

. f ~ k ~ d P ~ h i ? i

t No

C-6

for

i d e n t i f i c a t i o n .

Q

I would l i ke to d i r e c t your a t t e n t i o n

to the


33/49

150

1 por t ion in the

middle

where

you are

quoted as saying -

2

quote

-

as

I

sa id the re

i s

a

few,

not

much,

as

much,

I

3 th ink ,

as two

hundred the re ava i lab le in the '74

4 campaign a l ready .

5

A I t h ink now t h i s puts

in

perspec t ive what I to ld

6

you

e a r l i e r

about

the conversa t ion on the 17th . You may

7 r eca l l , when you read the whole conversa t ion , I pointed out

8 the

evidence

ava i l ab le . You a l so r e c a l l t ha t , from my

9

10

12

13

1

15

16

17

18

conversa t ion

t h a t

I

had

with

Mr.

Rebozo,

tha t

we

d i d n ' t

di scuss

spec i f ica l ly

what he

had

in

mind,

but I know

spec i f ica l ly

what I must have had in mind a t

t h i s

t ime becaus

it as the t r a n s c r ip t reads ,

it

says the re

i s

a

few, not

much -- and here i s an u n in t e l l i g ib l e aga in , as much as, I

th ink , two hundred thousand do l l a r s

tha t

i s

ava i l ab le

in

the '74 campaign a l ready .

That

r e f e r s to two hundred

thousand do l la r s

I

was

sure of , not money t h a t would have to be r a i sed in

add i t ion by Abplanalp and Rebozo, but we had a hundred

19 thousand I

knew,

in

,.'

t he

Andreasmol1ey

a t t h a t t ime,

becaus

2 I l ea rned we had a hundred thousand

on

March 21 and we had

21 a hundred thousand in

t he

Hughes

money.

22

Let me ask you to a l so look a t what i s marked

23

Exhibi

t

7,which

i s

an

excerpt

from

the

t r a n s c r ip t

o f a

tape

March 21, 1973, from 10:12

to

11:55

a .m. ,

a t page

331,

25 re f lec t ing a dia logue between yourse l f and John Dean, and I


34/49

151

1

would

ask you to look

a t the

f ina l

paragraph near the bottom

2

of

the

page

which

quotes

you

as saying quote

what

I

3

mean i s you could - - you could get a mil l ion do l l a r s . And

4 you could get in cash. I know where

it

could be

got ten

5 end quote.

6 Do you

r eca l l

making t ha t s ta tement or a stateme t

7 of t ha t sor t?

8

I ce r ta in ly

do.

I have often been reminded of

9

it

s ince .

10 The document r e fe r red to

11

was

marked

Exhibi t

No. C-7.)

12

13

Q

BY

MR

MICHEL:

i den t i f i ca t i on .

And when you made t ha t

s ta tement ,

what were

4 you r e fe r r ing to , funds

t ha t

had already been received?

15 A No, I was r e fe r r ing to funds we could

get ,

and

16

it

says

so. And

what

I meant, Mr. Michel,

i s

I

had

a number

17 of f r iends who

are

very weal thy, who

i f

they

bel ieved

it

18

was

a

r i gh t

kind of a cause would have cont r ibuted a mil l ion

19

do l l a r s ,

and

I th ink I

could

have got ten

it

within a

20

matter of a

week.

We

decided not

to

do

it

as you

21 r eca l l .

22

Q

Now

l e t

me

also

ask

you

to

look

br i e f l y a t

Ex

3

hibit .

G-5

which

i s

page

31

of

a

t r ansc r i p t

of

a

tape of

24

a

conversat ion

of

April

25,

1973,

from

4:40

to

5:30

p.m.

25

This

i s

a

conversat ion

involving yourse l f

and

Mr.

Haldeman,


35/49

2

I

i

a i

I j

I

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

152

and

I

would

ask

you

to

look

a t the f ina l two

paragraphs

near the

bottom

o f

page

31

where you

are

quoted

as saying,

-

quote

-

remember

I

t o l d you l a t e r

I

could

ge t

a

hundred

thousand, and

Mr.

Haldeman then

says

-

quote

-

t ha t

r ings

a

b e l l because you t a lked

about Rose having some money

'

o r

something.

I remember t h a t .

A

Q

A

Do you r e c a l l t h a t conversa t ion?

Yes, I

a l ready

t e s t i f i e d

to t h a t as you know.

BY

MR MICHEL:

The

document

r e f e r r ed to

was

marked Exhibi t No. C-5.)

for

i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )

That i s

the

re fe rence

to

the Andreas

money?

Yes,

and as

a mat te r o f

fac t ,

j u s t

so

we

under -

14

s tand c l e a r l y

what

happened t he re ,

a f t e r the

conversa t ion

15

which

concluded with Mr.

Dean,

we

had made a t l e a s t

a

Hi t e n t a t i v e dec i s ion

t h a t

we

could

not

go forward

with t h i s

17 and .

r a i s e

the money

for

Hunt ' s a t to rneys '

fees or whatever

18

'

19

20

21

22

23

:

1

it

was. I f e l t , however, I had a t l ea s t an o b l i g a t i o n to

see

what kind o f

'

an opt ion

we

had,

and

it

was then t ha t

I

as

Miss

Woods to check and

she came

back and repor ted to me

tha

we

had one hundred thousand do l l a r s from Andreas.

Q

Can you r e c a l l from

whom

you f i r s t

l ea rned,

according to your

e a r l i e r

test imony in the

f a l l o f

' 71 ,

I

t ake it

o f

the de l ivery of

the Andreas money?

A The del ivery?

i

iOOVER

REPORTING

CO IN:'

320 Massachusetts Avenue ,NC.

iasilington, D.C. 20002

' I n ' l \

C e reef:


36/49

1 5 3

,

1

I

Q

Yes.

Who

t o ld you about the del ivery?

2

A The de l ivery

o f

the money I f i r s t

l ea rned

from

,

Miss

Woods.

:t

Q And was t h a t a t about

t he

t ime t h a t the de l ive ry

5

occurred?

6 A Oh, immediately the rea f te r . When I say

7

immediately , perhaps two o r

th ree

hours o r

wi th in

two o r

8

th ree

hours

maybe the

same

day o r the

next day.

9

Q And

did

you i n s t r u c t

her to

have

the

money

put

10

away

in a sa fe place?

11

A

I had

i n s t ruc ted

her to

do

t h a t e a r l i e r .

12

Q

How was

t

t h a t

you

knew t h a t

t he

money was

13

about

to

be

del ivered?

nixons grand jury testimony june 23 1975 pt 3

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