Episode 2: How to Open a Closed Theatre

00:08 Sue Welcome to Theatre unwrapped the New Wolsey Theatre podcast. I'm your host Sue Lawther-Brown and I'd love you to join me right here in Dressing Room 3 as I unwrap the secrets and stories of Theatre. Episode Two, How to Open a Closed Theatre. Dressing Room 3 has a distinctly different feel today as the theatre is preparing to reopen after being closed for the best part of the year. I'm sandwiched between racks of panto costumes that have magically appeared with a slightly musty smell about them. And in the corridor, I can hear the sound of technicians buzzing back and forth between backstage and the green room next door. Yes, the New Wolsey is preparing to open again. As venues across Britain make plans to welcome back real audiences, I want to know what it really takes to open a closed Theatre. I'm going to talk to some of the people that will make that happen: the people that make the big decisions and the small ones, and those that have done it not once or twice, but several times before.

01:15 Pete RoweAnd all the paraphernalia of working Theatre was still there on everybody's desk. So the papers from the Newspapers from that day, the coffee cups from that day, the books that people were reading on that day, all of that was still spread out across the offices.

01:30 SueMy guests are Sarah Holmes, and Pete Rowe, the CEO and the Artistic Director of the New Wolsey Theatre, as well as David Phillips, a freelance lighting designer and production manager, who will do whatever it takes to get the curtain up, including chasing Shetland ponies across the park.

01:47 Mr. P ( David Phillips)Shetland ponies decided they'd have absolutely enough of their incarceration. So they made a made a break for it.

01:55 Sue And Tom Stickland from Theatres Trust

01:58 TomTheatres can be grand palaces of the imagination without the people inside them, they're nothing.

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02:05 Sue I'm delighted to be joined, first of all, by Sarah Holmes and Peter Rowe. Welcome Sarah and Pete.

02:11 PeteHello. lovely to be here.

02:13 SueYeah. Hello. So I'm delighted to be with you in this stuffy costume filled dressing room.

02:19 SueWell, I should say for the sake of transparency for our listeners, that you're also my boss, Sarah. But I think we've agreed that I can ask you anything. Are you okay with that? I really want to get under the skin of what you do.

02:31 SarahI don't think that that should be a question. Sue I think you have always been able to ask me anything. Whether I'll tell you the truth or not is another question. Okay.

02:40 SueAnd Pete, another disclosure I want to make is that you and Sarah are life partners too? I'm not sure if that's exactly how you would put it. But you and Sarah do live and work together. And you took on the reopening of the New Wolsey as a couple almost exactly 20 years ago.

02:58 PeteYeah, that's right. It's not the secret. We actually met when we were both working for the London bubble Theatre. So we met. In fact, Sarah hired me as Artistic Director for the London bubble. When when she was the executive. So that's how we met. And we have two very grown up children who are 33 and 29. Now, and we actually became official civil partners, just before Christmas, so we're not only partners in life and in work, but in law as well. Now,

03:29 SueI remember that well. We were just about to open Snow Queen our Christmas panto, weren't we?

03:34 PeteThat's right. We, we did the traditional Theatre thing of going to the registry office and then going straight to a dress rehearsal. 03:43 Sue That was a lovely evening, Sarah, is that your version of events as well of how you met? Did you hire Pete?

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03:50 SarahWell I think it's a little bit untrue, because there was a board and I may have been consulted. And he did have an absolutely delicious stripy jumper, which I've kept actually in the in the in the tradition of first love. So yes, we did meet when we're working together kept it very quiet from the company for some time, because it didn't seem entirely appropriate at the time that it was a seasonal company. So once that it got turned into autumn, we were allowed to reveal it to all . Yes. In fact, we'd fallen in love and on the job.

04:24 SueOh, well,how romantic. When you came across the New Wolsey Theatre and the fact that they were looking for some people to reopen the Theatre, what do you remember Sarah, about the interview process for your roles? And was it always a deal breaker that you and Pete came as a pair?

04:43 SarahWell, first of all, it was advertised as one post. So it was - I think it was called a creative producer. And when that was advertised and I we knew we wanted to move on from where we were at the time and so we were looking at all sorts of different options. And Pete was working In Europe somewhere I can't actually remember where but I remember having a telephone conversation saying that I don't think we should necessarily just pass this one up. It could be quite interesting as it’s being closed for a while. But how about we don't apply one or other for this? Why don't we apply together as a, as a partnership, and try to convince them that they need one and a half person as opposed to just the one. So it was a deal breaker, we went, we went into the interview together, they either took us as we were, or the deal was not going to happen. So that's how the process went. And yes, they did offer us the job,

05:35 Peteit was pretty clear that they needed more than one person. So the money had been ring fenced the funding body should ring fence the money that had been available for what had been a very successful Theatre for a number of years before it ran into bad times, and dissolves into administration. But the funding had been kept alive. That was the important thing. So the funding was still there. And when a New board was created, and then we're looking for somebody to start the organization, again, they decided that they would create this one post, but it was very clear that it was a much bigger job than one person. So we managed to persuade them that they needed they needed one and a half people. So it was full time Sarah as chief executive. And part time halftime, Pete as artistic director, is how we pitched it. And it's been that case, there's been that way ever since they offered us the job.

06:26 SueSo why would anyone want to take on the huge challenge of reopening a Theatre? Surely there are plenty of Theatres where you could have worked without the mammoth task of starting from scratch. So why did you really want to do it?

06:39 PeteWell, I suppose there are advantages and disadvantages. Obviously, you have a massive turnaround to do with the Theatre that's been closed and mothballed for that length of time. But on the other hand, you have a relatively clean slate, you don't have staff that have been through bad times and are

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carrying a lot of baggage, you can start to employ a new team from scratch, you can make a kind of new commitment and new contract with an audience, you can develop a new programme of work, you can structure the business in the way that you want that you think will be successful. And I suppose neither me or Sarah knew that it was going to work. But we decided that we’d give it our absolutely best and boldest shot. And if it didn't work out, we'd have to move on to something else. But you don't very often get that opportunity to give it a crack from a blank sheet of paper. And I suppose the other thing about about the New Wolsey is the nature of the auditorium. And that's something that's really important. I think the relationship between the stage as a performance area and the audience in that building is really magic. And there are lots of theatres where that's not the case. So the kind of theatre that we like, which is a high quality community experience that puts everybody in the same room together, that puts the acting company and the audience together in the in the same environment was very possible in that auditorium. And that was another big attraction.

08:07 SueSarah, presumably a lot of money had to be raised before you could reopen the theatre. Pete said that some of the funding had already been secured. But did you have to go and find additional people to invest in the New Wolsey?

08:21 SarahIt was an extraordinary time. So I mean, yes, there was, as Pete said some funding from the two local authorities Suffolk County Council, Ipswich Borough Council, and the Arts Council that had been ring fenced and then there were a couple of very key people in this – Councillor Bryony Rudkin, who was the portfolio holder for the arts, at that time, has often held that position since. And she was very involved in the whole closure of the theatre and then trying to find a way to reopen it. And Jayne knight who was the Arts Development Officer for the county council, a woman who was on a mission to make sure that the Theatre did reopen. And between the two of them, they were quite a formidable force and really worked very much on our side to go forth and conquer. So there was some money on the table. It wasn't enough, it was certainly not enough to for the ambitions that the old company had had. You couldn't be producing everything you had to find a new model of working, that would be a more mixed economy. We personally thought that was a more exciting economy as well, that we would be able to make some work and we would also be able to collaborate and pick some of the best and most exciting work that was was around and about and present to the people of Ipswich and see what they thought of it. We both didn't actually know it Ipswich at all. I think I’d been here once to borrow a prop when I'd been working at the at the Queen’s Theatre Hornchurch - you know how Theatres swap each other's possessions. I think I picked something up here about 30 years before. So we had no idea what Ipswich was. So it kind of was a bit of a shock to nothing as what would we wanted to do and what we thought was most appropriate – what was really going to grab the attention and the desires of the people that lived here. But there was a big strong swell of support, there was a theatre club of people who had tirelessly kept on talking about wanting their theatre reopened, there was that youth centre that had actually managed to open their show before the bad boys turned up and shut the doors. We knew that there was still quite alive, the thought in the community that they did want us there. So that was quite fertile ground to come into. The Arts Council were less enthusiastic to start with. But I think once we got working, we soon sold to them what a successful model that we might have. So we did

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have to look for more money. But we started with what we had and made sure that we, we didn't overdo it.

11:07 Sue I think you're a difficult person to say ‘no’ to Sarah, to be honest…

11:13 Pete Sarah has been quite polite about the Arts Council there because when we drove down to start the job, we called in at the Arts Council in Cambridge on the way and the director of the Arts Council for the East of England at that time, told us that she wished that the decision hadn't been made to restart the Theatre, she'd rather it stay closed. So that was like a red rag to a bull obviously, for us. So that gave us the extra fire to prove them wrong, and that they needed to be persuaded and turned around, and which we actually, thank goodness, managed to do within a very short space of time. But there you know, it wasn't it wasn't plain sailing by any means. There were a lot of big challenges there. But we knew that when we when we took it on, and there was a certain amount of table thumping and passion at that, at that meeting. And I remember walking out and saying to Sarah, hmm, well, you haven't exactly made a best friend there, Sarah.

12:18 SarahAnd I won't even begin to suggest what I might have said, but you know, with friends like that, who needs… and we popped out into the spring day, on our way to the proper place, which was Ipswich.

12:24 PeteThe great thing about all of that was that we felt starting off that we had nothing to lose that we were going to give it our absolutely best shot and as much energy and determination as we can. And it would work or it wouldn't.

12:37 SueAnd you're still here 20 years later, which is extraordinary. But let's go back to the very first time you went into the building. Sarah, tell me about that first time going into the New Wolsey Theatre. What does a closed theatre smell like? Is it sweaty old costumes and technicians trainers?

12:58 SarahSue funnily enough, it does smell like nothing, I think I'm pretty sure that the smell within a Theatre actually comes from it being used and being a working place. So you get the smell of the, from the workshop mostly and from whatever they've built the set with, that pervades the building when you're in production. And that is a glorious smell that is quite unique. And then there's always fixing going on. So there's always the smell of re-gluing the sets. So you get an extraordinary smell of very strong glue, or somebody doing the washing with some ghastly powder that I'm hugely allergic to and makes me sneeze. So I think an empty building doesn't smell at all. The smell that is delicious of an openTheatre is all sorts of working smells. We actually got access to the building on the day of our interview because I said I'm not going to accept the job if I don't like the Theatre. If I don't like the auditorium we're not having anything to do with this. We won't even do the interview. I managed to arrange that some person with a lot of keys would let us in to see the space before we actually went down to the County

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Hall, which was the old prison down at the other end of town which they'd moved out of a long time ago. Very grand building. So we did actually come into the Theatre prior to the interview in the morning. It was a bit of a shock. There were pink pillars marching onto the stage area, there were lime green seats. And the stage was absolutely covered in costumes. There had been a massive costume store somewhere that had been emptied and all of the costumes - many of them had been donated from old ladies and ex hire costume hire firms and all sorts - it was a mass of stuff that was all over the stage and various rails and piles so that the sound was completely dead. Any Theatre you walk into you, normally you can click your fingers and you can actually get a feeling of the sharpness, but it was dead.

15:03 PeteIt was extremely frustrating because you wanted to be able to stand on the stage and feel what it was like to be an actor in front of that auditorium. And we couldn't, we literally couldn't get on the stage because it was completely crammed with costume rails and all the costumes. And the other extraordinary thing about that day was that the doors had been closed really rapidly. So the previous company having something like 18 months before, had been told to leave very quickly, once it was realized that it was in trouble. And all the paraphernalia of a working theatre was still there on everybody's desk. So the papers, the newspapers from that day, the coffee cups from that day, the books that people were reading on that day, all of that was still spread out across the offices and the production office. So it was like the Mari Celeste, it was a very strange feeling walking into this ghost of a theatre with none of the people who usually animated it there anymore.

16:03 Sue So that sounds like a really strange experience. And then you would have had a lot of clearing up to do once you'd once you'd started. Did you uncover any horrors? And did you throw anything away that you later realized you really needed?

16:18 SarahYes, of course we did. There was a real push from the from the new board to get it up and open and doing a production in a very short space of time. When we started, I think Pete was still doing a contract somewhere else in Europe. We started with about four of us on the fourth of September. And our first performance was something like the second of February - Sweeney Todd. So that was a very, very short space of time to re-commission a building and find a workforce and develop productions and the season. And convince people to come and work with us and take on an extraordinary adventure that we had no idea if it was going to be fun or not. And so yes, there was a lot of mess. And we had to get it cleared very, very quickly. It was sad, because it was had been a very successful company. And there was a lot of treasures that had been kept over the years. And nobody really had time to archive it or to, to pick through it. And we didn't have time either - we did a certain amount of work with, with Suffolk archives to come and take some some of the historical stuff away. But we did actually end up with just a skip after skip after a skip. So yet we chucked away the one and only copy of the ground plan of the stage. This was pre electronic days and it had to be completely measured again, we threw away the instructions for the Pat testing equipment of the past. Pat testing is really important. That's when you put all the all the electrical stuff through a machine and see if it's safe. So we had a machine, but we had no idea how to use it. So we pretty much threw out a few a few things that were critically important. But Pete, was there anything else that you remember that we said, oops, afterwards?

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18:14 Pete No, it was mostly the ground plan that I remember. Because when it came to designing and building sets, that was quite critical. But I suppose you know, what that did was make us measure the auditorium very precisely and carefully ourselves to recreate a new plan. And really, I remember that moment when we were looking at all of this stuff and sifting through it and realizing that we just didn't have time to sift through everything that was what was around all of these offices and the entire building. And actually, there was something again, liberating about being able to wipe the slate clean. So although though some babies went out with the bathwater, I think us being able to kind of scoop everything up and clear it out and start again with a shell and a blank sheet was the right thing to do. And it made it better for us to say we'll give this building an imprint, a new personality, a new kind of programme, and not worry too much about the expectations that have been built up and the way it worked in the past. And I think that was the right thinking to move us forward.

19:24 Sue A theatre like the New Wolsey is very much part of the community. How did you know Sarah, that the people of Ipswich even wanted a Theatre again?

19:33 Sarah Well, yes, and that's the question we asked ourselves quite a lot, actually. And what was more worrying, or more concerning or more on tenterhooks was whether they'd like the sort of theatre that we thought that we were very best about creating? And that took a lot of thinking, and actually it was Pete that came up with the three watchwords of what we’ve held on to today – I’ll leave him to talk about what those three words were. But I think there was an encouragement from, as I was saying earlier, some of the stalwarts. And there were a number of individuals who were incredibly supportive and encouraging to us. But to be absolutely truthful, we really didn't know, what we did know was, from our various experiences, for it to work, we had to be very much part of the community that there was no point in us just jetting in from somewhere, and living somewhere that wasn't exactly in the centre of Ipswich and not being part of the town. And I think knowing that from our previous jobs, made it much, much easier to actually come in and start - being asked to be on various school committees or being on various town organizational groups or whatever, and actually making a real effort to get to know the guts of the town, not just the theatrical element of it.

21:01 Sue I really like that - getting to know the guts of the town is a great way of putting it. Pete, tell me what your job is, as artistic director? Do you decide what goes on the stage? And what part does Sarah play in making those decisions?

21:16 PeteWell, we decide together. It's a joint responsibility, I suppose. In a typical year, on the New Wolsey, the main house stage, about half of what goes on, half the weeks of the year are taken up by work that we make ourselves and about half visiting work. And we talk about both sides of the work together. But I'm more responsible for the work that we make ourselves. So deciding what projects to do, what plays to do, what work to co produce with other producers or other theatres. And how we're going to make a

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creative team - director, designer, choreographer, musical director - who we're going to use for each project, and how the casting goes. So those are the decisions that I’m most closely involved in, as well as directing and writing some of that work myself. And the visiting work we talk about jointly, but it will be Sarah who does the deals with the visiting companies and works out a financial structure for a week of a touring company. And you know, there's those three words that Sarah mentioned were in our original pitch; we said that we would make work that had the highest quality and the greatest accessibility and the greatest diversity that we could make. And try and make the program that is offered as wide ranging as we could and get as many different people through the door as we could. And basically that pitch which was accepted when they when they gave us this job are the words that have remained with us through the 20 years that we've been operating. So that's still the ethos of the Theatre. That's still the philosophy.

22:55 Sue I can really confirm that those three watchwords if you like - quality, diversity and accessibility - are really evident in the theatre today. As someone that's just started working for the New Wolsey in the last year. Those things are still here 20 years later - absolutely what drive decision making - it's really clear. So Pete, what if you and Sarah disagree? Can Sarah fire you if you really mess things up?

23:22 PeteNo, she's she can't. She absolutely can't fire me.

23:26 SarahNo.

23:28 PeteWe actually, we don't disagree about an awful lot. We I mean, I suppose that's just because of the nature of the way that we talk about these things. And of course, we talk about these things endlessly. In fact, when our kids were still living with us, and here at home and going around in the car, they would quite often say to us, can we just have half an hour when we don't talk about that theatre? You can you know, you will understand that. It's, it's obsessive. Of course it is. And you're constantly kind of puzzling over it and teasing over it and trying to work out how to do it better. But we are both jointly responsible to the board of directors. They offered us the job in the first place as a partnership. An we live and die as a partnership professionally. So the board could sack us both, but I don't think they would. And Sarah certainly can't sack me and I don't think they could sack either one of us without the other. So we are we are literally joined together like that. And I think that style of Theatre that we've been talking about that we particularly like, I mean, I think that what we've tried to create over the over the 20 years is a really high quality, popular theatre. So we are, you know, happiest when the auditorium is packed full with as many very different people as possible. All having a great time, going out into the night with a smile on their faces. That's the kind of theatre that we love. And I think sometimes the word popular has a kind of derogatory tone to it - that if it's popular, it can't be quality. If it's popular, it can't be good. And I think that our working lives have been about disproving that and saying that you can, you can take as much care and put as much kind of professional expertise into making it a very high quality popular show. And I think audiences understand that and appreciate it,

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25:22 Sue That programming for the auditorium is not just what the Theatre is about, is it? Because there's actually a whole team of people that, that do a lot of work in the community and in schools and colleagues that get involved in programming, not just the main auditorium, but work that that we do in our new building NW2 and outside and beyond in the community.

25:46 SarahThat's really critical. I mean, when you talk about what's the guts of the town, it is all those communities and all their own abilities and designers and how they have to creative and, and get involved in and get satisfaction enjoyment out of Theatre in its absolute, broadest sense. And that is side by side and intertwined with all the performance work that we do.

26:12 Sue While we're talking of community, theatres can really only operate with a community of professional freelancers like wardrobe and makeup artists, lighting, and sound technicians, set designers, all the people that get called in on freelance contracts to get a show up and running. So how easy was it to find all those people when you first started up the New Wolsey?

26:35 Pete Well, it was,I remember that recruitment being very quick and very rapid for permanent staff that we were going to recruit to be the senior management team. That had to happen very quickly. And there was a sense of kind of pioneering spirit in those early days about the people that were part of that original team. And, you know, it was us really working very, very hard and all hours and with as much ingenuity as possible to get the Theatre back up and running and get an audience back in through the doors. I think with the creative teams, the choreographers, the directors, the designers, the musical directors, there was a certain amount of history that I had with other people working on other jobs in other theatres. So that was a matter of inviting those colleagues of mine that I've worked with on other jobs as freelancers to come and work at a new space in Ipswich. And then I remember that original company also had a number of actors that I've worked with on a number of other jobs, because you want to go to the people that you have that trusted relationships with, when you're in high stakes game, and you're reopening a theatre. And it's got to work the first time round to convince an audience that you’re people to be trusted. So there was a lot of calling in trusted colleagues and friends and mates who I had worked with before. And I knew they were good. And I suppose that has gone on. Also being part of the culture of the theatre that we have many people returning often as freelancers in the creative team as actors on the stage, because they enjoy the culture of the building, and they enjoy the organization that they're working for. And that's really important. And I think the balance is important too. So you're not stuck with the same people repeatedly, but that you have a core of people that you return to, that you have a long lasting relationship with. And you make sure that you refresh that with new people and different people as well. And that balance is really important for healthy theatre, I think too. But I think often the most important thing is that people have fun doing it. And that when a show is going really well, when a rehearsal room is really health is when people are having a really good time. And they're really enjoying themselves. They work really hard and really well. And we're often asking people to work really hard. So it's really important that they have a really good time doing it.

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28:53 Sue I'm going to be talking to someone from that community of freelancers today. Mr. P. whom you know very well. How crucial are people like Mr. P in getting theatres open again?

29:04Well, absolutely crucial. Mr. P is one of a number of freelancers. And I suppose that's something that's not often easy to grasp. But you know, we've been talking about the recruitment of the permanent team and the senior management team for the reopening theatre. Actually, most of the work that's made is made by an army of freelancers. So the whole of the creative team, all of the actors, a lot of the production staff on any particular play or project, or freelancers who are hired for that particular show or that particular production. And without them, there would be no Theatre. So the rest of us who are on permanent contracts are really there to support this army of artists on freelance contracts that are coming in to make the actual work that people see or that people take part in. And without them, there wouldn't be any work for people to come and see on our stages. And that's particularly crucial at the moment when it's been those people, those freelancers who may suffer from the closure of theatres, and the fact that there’s has been no work to offer them. They're the ones that are in many ways, the most important and the most vulnerable.

30:14 Sue Sarah, how have the people at the New Wolsey fared over the last year, how has your role as Chief Exec changed while the theatre has been closed, if at all?

30:24 SarahIt's been a tricky year, it's been a tricky year for everybody. It's been a very particularly tricky year for theatre and entertainment, and many of the other sorts of sociable things that people do because nobody ever really knew when on earth we could ever do start those things again, and in what shape they would take. So the waiting game, and not being able to do what we actually do has been really, really tough. So it's, it's a delight, now, to be gearing ourselves up to have another pop at it - we had a bit of a go last Christmas time. And now we're feeling that there's even more of an opportunity that might stretch a bit longer. So people are getting themselves back together, which is hard in itself, has hardened itself to suddenly change how you've been operating for a year. And I think I'm exactly the same you ask about the Chief Executive - how that has changed to - it's not much fun running the theatre that doesn't actually do any theatre, doesn't actually run any activity for community people, doesn't actually open its doors or engage with people face to face. It's been also quite tricky to say, how do we actually keep hold of the business? How do we maintain resources and still manage to be of significance and importance to people? I think it's changed us all, and the roles have all changed. And in many respects, that's exciting and challenging. .

31:51 SueThanks, Sarah. And Pete, because of the Covid 19 pandemic, you are now of course, with Sarah, preparing to reopen the New Wolsey again, after a period of closure. How similar is the situation now to the one you faced 20 years ago?

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32:05 PeteI suppose we have a history of our own work and our own operation and our relationship with an audience to reply on this time round. So it doesn't feel as it did 20 years ago that we were stepping into the unknown that we were going to commit ourselves to this program of work and this type of production and hope that we found an audience that shared our appetite for it. Now we know a lot more about what our audience responds to and what they'd like. And there is a tradition in the history of our kind of relationship with the audiences in the town to for us to draw on. I think there's also a lot of unknowns for us now about how quickly people will feel comfortable about coming back into an auditorium, you know, about when the guidelines will change and one will be able to move from social distancing inside the theatre to full auditorium once again, what people will feel like about gathering together in numbers. I think all of that it remains to be seen. And we are trying to be as canny as we can be about how we plan the reopening to make sure that we are not caught out by any changes that come further down the line. And that we can help encourage people to feel confident and come back into a public realm and enjoy themselves and enjoy sharing a story together again. There are some similar challenges. I think it does feel a little bit as we go back into the Theatres to start work again that it's time to get this building back up to scratch and back up to speed. And I think we all feel a little bit like that in terms of being a little bit ring rusty about how we go about making shows. But from the evidence of putting on Snow Queen just before Christmas, that ring rustiness will only last two or three days. And then we're back up to the full strength and appetite again.

33:55 Sue You've been involved Pete, in reopening more than one theatre company now haven't you? So what advice would you give to a less experienced artistic director about to embark on the same challenge?

34:07 PeteWell, I think the first piece of advice I give is don't pretend that you are the theatre company. My first experience of doing this was when my very first job as artistic director after training was for a company called Solent People's theatre, who were a small community touring company. So touring out the back of a van and didn't have a theatre building of their own. So performing in schools and residential homes and works canteens, that kind of a company. And they'd also been through a bad patch and been dormant for about a year and a half. And I was so determined that the company should do something and traditionally they toured play scheme in Southampton in the summer and doing performances for the kids in the place game. So I said, well, let's stick with those bookings and i'll do those. I'll turn up with my bag of theatre games and do something so I would rock up - after I'd taken the job - just me on my own struggling to drive this long wheel base Mercedes van, that I had no idea really how to drive, and rock up to these play schemes. And there would be, you know, 70 or 80 kids that in there and 10 helpers all expecting a show. And it would be me with my little bag - the disappointment on their faces- and how hard I had to then work to try and bring them around and get them to play icebreaker theatre games and make small plays. That was a real baptism of fire, and I was all on my own for five or six weeks in the summer. So that would be my first advice. I think the big thing to do is to be bold and brave with what you want to do and to do the kind of work that you really want to make. And that you know, you can put your heart and soul and personality into, I think you can, you can spend a lot of time trying to second guess what the audience will want. But I think audiences respond to work that's

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heartfelt and generous and has the kind of commitment of the team behind it. So that would be my real advice would be to be bold with the vision of what you want to achieve.

36:17 SueSarah, you and Pete are well known as a dynamic duo in theatre, if you'll forgive me for using that really cheesy phrase. But have you had calls from colleagues in other theatres asking for advice over the last year? And what advice could you give them now as the industry prepares to fire on all four cylinders again?

36:36 SarahI think that's been one of the most magnificent things of the last year actually is the amount of conversations and collaborative ideas and sharing and advice giving that we've been giving to each other, and looking out for each other. And I've had more conversations with more colleagues in other Theatres. And there's been more than two groups that have popped up that are hanging in together to share. So it's not me, because I'm so old and done, that’s handing out the advice. It's actually, it's coming from all sides and some of the younger and less experienced people are coming out with some of the best advice. So it's very much a two way street. And I think that long may that hang in, because it's been most remarkably delightful and encouraging and helpful part of the of the last year really…

37:30 Sue That's great to hear. Maybe a little bit of a silver lining on what's been quite a big cloud. So during lockdown the New Wolsey co-produced two highly successful online shows: What A Carve Up and The Picture of Dorian Gray, both of which received five star reviews. Of course, there was also the huge success of the Snow Queen rock and roll panto, which was a blended live and live streamed production. And you managed to squeeze it into a small window of being open in December 2020. Pete I'm interested to know how these forays into the digital world have changed you as an artistic director, if at all?

38:12 PeteWell, yes, they have. I mean, the one that I was most directly involved with was the Snow Queen, which I'm the writer of as well as the director. So when we decided that we would go for a limited run of the of the show, and that we would be in a land where there was social distancing in the auditorium meant that we would simultaneously live stream, I worked very closely with our head of production, Pete Hazelwood, who is the technical wizard, to work out what the possibilities were really. And I think in like every constraint, the most terrifying thing I think creatively, is a blank screen or a blank sheet of paper. As soon as somebody says, it's this story, or it's got to work in this way, your imagination starts to work. And once we were faced with the prospect of live streaming the show into people's homes so that people could watch it remotely. We wanted to keep that sense of live Theatre and anarchy and things happening in a surprising way. That is a lot of what people love about the live pantomime experience. So trying to work out how we could do that, how we could get that same sense of slight danger and Jeopardy and spontaneity into the show, while it was being beamed into people's homes was a really exciting challenge and led to all kinds of interesting adventures into filming and filming in front of a green screen so we could lay different backgrounds over or different puppets over the top. Pete Hazelwood spent about three or four days walking backwards around Ipswich with his camera, so that

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would become the background to a particular song in the show where people were moving through that environment. So there were all kinds of exciting possibilities that opened up once we decided to go down that route, and I know that was the same for the two digital projects as well. Tamara Harvey, who directed both of those projects was incredibly excited about the possibilities that filming allowed and, and what that meant about how you could tell stories in a completely different way whether that digital offering is Theatre or whether it's film or whether it's TV or whether it's probably something in the middle of all three. It's another new way of telling stories that exploits that particular medium, I think so. I think the constraints are exciting and challenging and lead to new artistic ideas, as well as feeling like you can't do it the way that you’re usually used to doing it, which is the first shock, then you adapt.

40:46 Sue There's a good reason that Dressing Room 3 has filled up with costumes. They're not the least bit sweaty and the pattern of technicians feet can be heard in the corridor. And that's because we'll be opening for a rerun of the Snow Queen rock and roll panto on the 27th May. Tell us Pete why you wanted to revamp this show, as the one to open up with after being closed during lockdown.

41:09 PeteYeah, it feels a little bit strange, doesn't it doing a pantomime at the end of May and the beginning of June in the middle of summer? Funnily enough, it's been something that along the along the way people have talked about, you know, this show, why is it only at Christmas? Why can't you do in the rest of the year? Well, we're about to try it. And I suppose when we were thinking about reopening theatre and encouraging people back into the auditorium and wanting to celebrate the fact that the theatre was open and reestablish that sense of community that you get inside an auditorium and when everybody's having a great time watching the show. It felt like the rock and roll panto was the perfect opportunity to do that. And that may be the strangeness that we've been through and the strange environment we're in. It was no stranger to think about doing a Christmas show in the middle of the summer. And I think the great thing about those shows are that there is that sense of celebration around them, that there's a kind of shared party feeling between the actors on stage and the people in the auditorium. And in this case, now the people at home, so that we're all part of that experience rebuilding a kind of sense of us as a community, when we've been separated in our own spaces for so long. And you know, there are some practical reasons as well, the set is still on stage. And last Christmas, all of those five actors in the company are still available, we have the films that we made back in December still in the can, so we can get that show back up to speed pretty quickly. And as a way of us as an organization getting back up to speed too, to do it with something that we have a little idea how it goes from the previous run, felt like that would be a good helpful way of getting us back up to match fitness as well. So all of all of those things were in play.

42:53 SarahSo I think the other really important thing to remember is that a piece of theatre or a play, a production isn't made in half a week- it can take months - and with this pandemic and the lockdown here and there and will we won't we ,and what are the public going to feel and how on earth are we ever going to really know exactly when we can - we have to be quite canny about how much we would invest in what and therefore to have something that we'd already kind of gotten in the can so to speak - which is a bit weird because we're talking about live theatre. That's something that we had run and we had run for

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quite an unsatisfactorily short run. It was just such an obvious thing that there are more people who want to see it, that more people who want to come and have a look at theatre again after a whole year. It just seemed like very obvious to do something that we knew would work.

43:45 Sue We only did about 12 shows in December 2020 and in a normal year the New Wolsey rock 'n' roll panto does over 90 shows. So there's clearly a massive, massive appetite for the rock ‘n’ roll panto, and I'm really looking forward to, to having the cast back in the building and just hearing everything kind of come to life, as rehearsals get underway.

44:10 Pete The start of the story is that of a May festival with our heroine being crowned the new Queen of the Spring, Queen of the May. So there is a story reason for it to start this time of year as well. And I've rewritten the prologue, I've promised the cast that I won't rewrite much so they don't have to relearn all their lines. But I have rewritten the introduction to the show to take account of the changed circumstances that we're in. And there are one or two other things that we’ll tweak along the way as well.

44:40 Sarah And we know that the blended option works as well, there still will be people who can't go out, who can't go to the theatre who can't mix with other with masses of people who will still want to be able to have the sort of enjoyment and engagement with something in their own homes and their own living rooms. And that was such a success. They’ve had such fun with it. That, to continue to be able to provide that, for those people that won't come out, for very good reasons, is going to be very exciting as well.

45:09 Sue So what's next for theatres in the UK? Sarah? Do you think we'll quickly get back to normal maybe by the end of this year? Or do you think this will have to operate differently for a much longer period of time, maybe for the foreseeable future?

45:23 SarahTo be honest, Sue, I don't believe there is a normal, I think we're past that now. I think everything's changed. And we've learned a lot, things have changed that are going to be better. Things have changed that are going to be done in a different way. Normal, I don't think as we knew it, is ever going to be there again. But for something that is live and as moving as exciting as theatre and participation in theatre, it's not a bad thing. So I would say for absolute sure, British theatre is going to look different in the future. But I'm not necessarily going to say it's gonna be different and it's going to be horrible and sad and we're not going to like it. I think it's going to benefit from the jolt and the shakeup that's taken place, there will be some horrible casualties and on the way, so some things that people have loved and been so enjoying being part of may not necessarily be there. There will certainly be people who leave the industry, and go and find a better and more stable way of earning an income. But on the whole, it's going to be very, very different. But let's not be afraid of that.

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46:35 Sue Pete and Sarah, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. Have I made any faux pas?

46:40 PeteNo, I don't think so. Well, we'll we'll find out later. I mean, so we'll obviously have a debrief and let you know.

46:46 SarahWell it depends how you cut it….

46:51 Sue Well, I hope you don't hate me too much for the dynamic duo description. I know that probably made your toes curl, but I'm prepared to defend it. You are an extraordinary couple and widely recognized as a powerhouse duo in regional theatre. I do feel very lucky to work for you. I'm going to stop the compliments before I get accused of sucking up. And simply thank you very much for your time today.

47:16 SarahOh Sue it's been an absolute delight. I have to say I so enjoy working with you,. I’ll leave it with Pete but I’d say you’ve still got a job…

47:25 PeteI’d say that's probably true Sue. But you're going to need to get out of Dressing Room 3 pretty quickly. You understand that? Because we've got a show that's going to take place fairly soon now.

47:35 SueYes, I will have to find another home temporarily for the podcast. Yes, you're absolutely right. Thank you so much once again, it's been a pleasure

47:44 SarahThank you too Sue

47:45 PeteThanks very much.

47:49 Sue Opening a closed theatre takes a community of freelancers, not just the permanent staff working in the venue. My next guest is a freelancer who has many years of experience working in theatre, and who is affectionately known at the New Wolsey as Mr. P. His real name is David Phillips. And he's a lighting designer and production manager. Welcome, Mr. P.

48:12Thank you for having me into your very, very lovely dressing room. .

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48:17 Mr. PMr. P, you'll be very familiar with Dressing Room 3, because you've got a long history with this building. Before we learn more about your career, tell me why you're called Mr. P and not David.

48:28 Mr. PIt's the force of having a very, very boring name that lots of other people have had. So I worked at one point, I worked in the venue of nine full time employees. Well, we had another David Phillips, which was extraordinarily annoying in fact. So one of the managers was called David Phillips and I was a wee minion. So we had to find a way of delineating between us. So we came up with that, and it has amazingly stuck through I mean, it must be 15, 16, 17 years now, since I've been called that and lots of people across the across the country across the industry call me that.

49:04 Sue Thank you. That's a brilliant explanation. And so I will continue to call you, Mr. P. Tell me what does a lighting designer and also a production manager do and how come you can do both?

49:15Okay, so what's really important to remember about those two job titles is that you don't tend to come out of school or whatever and become a production manager. Production Manager is the top of the tree for all the backstage departments. So what you tend to do is you start in one department with one specialism and you work your way up to the top, when you can get no further you tend to then try and become a production manager. So that's how that works. So I started on my first regional theatre in 1999. Before that, I worked in a council venue and I was there as a lowly assistant electrician and I worked my way all the way through, worked up to run the department. And as part of that, because you work around lighting and designers and all that stuff all the time - and back in those days, theatres, such as the New Wolsey would do 10 or 11 produced shows a year - so there often were opportunities to light shows, and I was lighting amateur dramatics - amateur companies who hired the theatre - and I enjoyed it. And I got my break in the 2002 production of Loot, which was directed by Carmen Crystal. And that was my first professional lighting design. And then I sort of continued from there. And so I've bounced around being freelance and being building based all throughout my career. And you get to a point where you've got enough experience for people to ask you to have an input on other areas of productions and, and gradually, I sort of picked up bigger and bigger Production Management jobs.

So a production manager, so a lighting designer only sort of works with the director and the rest of the creative teams, your set designer and costume designer, and they, you know, create lighting to create mood and all just to be, you know, wonderful and sparkly and shiny, like panto, and things like that and being fabulous. And you work within the creative team. The production manager basically works outside but with, the creative team, and helps all of those creative people realize their production on stage. And that's getting the set built, making sure lighting design has the lights, they need sounds and have the sound things they need and microphones all that. And there's a lot of budgetary responsibility. So you are, the production manager is probably the worst of both worlds in the fact that you have to say no to lots of people - they can't have a thing because it costs too much money. And also you have to tell, you know, tell people to pull socks up and get on with it. But they're also - for the control freak in everybody - it's also wonderful to be able to stand there and go, I had a hand in all of that.

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So it's, it's a really interesting job. And it's one of those jobs that I've sort of I never really planned to do. I sort of fell into as much as you know, I just sort of I was asked to do something. Well, if I give it a go, and it all seemed to work all right, so I carried on doing it.

52:01 Sue It sounds like you've really earned your stripes in theatre, by doing lots of different, lots of different roles. And as you say, working your way up to that role of being production manager that has so much kind of influence in what happens in a show. And you said that you were a freelancer? So can you explain what being a freelancer means? Does it mean that you can work for lots of different theatres?

52:27 Mr. P Absolutely, yes. So it means you tend to have to foster relationships with lots of lots of regional theatres. And in my case, I work in subsidized theatre almost exclusively. So that is theatres like the Wolsey, Theatre Royal in Bury St Edmunds , those sorts of that get some money from the Arts Council. So it's that world that I inhabit. Basically, you work a lot of short term contracts. And you've got to basically be remembered by lots of people, as freelancers always say you're only as good as your last job. So I just give you an idea of what I was resident here at the Wolsey in my previous life, I production managed our Ramps On The Moon tour of Tommy. And then when Leeds Playhouse - it was their turn to do Ramps On The Moon show, they approached me and went, you've learnt loads of stuff working on Tommy, would you like to come in as a freelancer come and join our theatre, and get that show open for us and work on that, because you've got those skills, it's about short term contracts, it is quite a precarious way of working. I mean, you know, you don't get sick pay, don't get holiday pay, look after all your own accounts, and all that sort of stuff. But what it does mean is that you're not tied to the nine to five. And you know, that's, there's a lot of freedom when it comes to major global pandemic, sometimes that freedom's not the best thing in the world. But in normal in normal, normal times, it's quite nice to go to work with different teams. And there'll be theatres that you really fit into, and they'll ask you back again and again. And that's the same, you know, it's not just production managers, it's most people because obviously, theatres don't produce work all the time. There's no point in having a person on staff and being paying that person day in day out, week in week out to be a lighting designer or a costume designer or set designer. So what you tend to find is that designers and production managers and often directors and actors are all freelancers. And they will work short term contracts in theatres all over the country.

54:20 SueSo it sounds like the theatre industry is really dependent on people like you. And you're really well connected across the industry. I know you've got a great network, but tell me a bit more about the impact of the pandemic on you and other people like you.

54:37 Mr. P It's been, I've been incredibly lucky. I mean, obviously when you when you're freelance or even you know when you're building basic work in this industry and working with a lot of freelancers, you're on social media, how you know, lots of freelancers, your friends - and literally since we locked down, I ran out of fingers to count the amount of people who ended up working for Iceland. It was very much we

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need to pay the bills now. For those of us who have been lucky enough to have contracts cut short with regional theatres, a lot of them honored the contracts to the end, even though you weren't working for them, which was a very strange experience where you were still being able to invoice for your, for your fees for show moves that weren't even happening. And very thankful for Leeds Playhouse and the New Wolsey theatre and Pilot theatre. And there's a couple of them that had, you know, because your work with different companies all through the year, and they kept paying, they honored their contracts, which is perhaps incredible. But for a lot of people, that was it, you know, work stopped. And I've got friends who've worked working in Waitrose, Home Bargains, I mean, you still got to get the money coming in. So for for freelancers, that's been a real problem. And I have been very, very lucky that I've been able to pick up work because of my position, now doing bits of health and safety and, and sort of senior management roles. I've been very lucky that I've been able to pick up bits and pieces of strategic work, you know, with COVID, security and all that sort of stuff.

55:57 Sue Yes, because you've got that real breadth and depth of experience, I guess, as theatres reopen, is it going to be the case? Do you think that freelancers will flood back to work and everything goes back to normal? Or do you think there's going to be a lasting change?

56:11 Mr. PThere's been a fundamental change in the industry, they, a lot of people in my sort of age, early 40s, have spent maybe have spent six months to a year of working in what I would call a Muggle job, which is, you know, not working in theatre, not the Wizards of theatre, as it were, people have gone off, there are things called evenings and weekends, because what you've got to remember is, you know, even if you're fairly high up in, in the in the food chain, you're still working lots of evenings, there's lots of travel, there's lots of weekends, and a lot of people have gone, you know what, actually, I can stick a day job for the fact that I'll get evenings and weekends, see my loved ones, my children, etc. So that's been that's really interesting. There's a number of friends who are also got contracts coming up for theatre work, and they've got full time jobs, and they're desperately trying to work out when to jump out of full time work and back into their theatre work. Because you know, you've still got to pay the bills, you don’t want to give up a perfectly good job. So I think there is, that there's, there's going to be a fundamental change, I think people are going to be a lot more risk averse. And we'll see if we have a lot less freelance people and freelance creatives. And fewer stage managers to call on in the next couple of years

57:17 SueYou mentioned that one of your roles is health and safety, which might sound really dull, but actually, it's vital to getting a theatre back on its feet. So what are the kinds of things that you have to think about before we can open the doors to the public safely?

57:33 Mr. PI've been involved in that reopening what we call dark theatre. So in this world, in our in our sort of pandemic world, as we stand at the moment, there are lots and lots of things to think about. Because not only are you thinking about the safety of the venue, and making sure you know, your fire alarm testing is up to date and things like that, you know, they may be the mundane things. Also, you've got

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to worry about how you get people into your venue and around your venue safely following guidelines, and all that sort of stuff. And you know, taking temperature tests and all the all of those hoops to jump through, and try and message that and make people feel comfortable walking into your venue and feel safe. You know, health and safety is yes, it sounds really dull. But the simplest way to boil health and safety down is it's a duty of care. So in this case, you will see face, but it's a duty of care to the employees of the organization and a duty of care to the people who come through the door, the general public participants, anyone else who comes to to interact with us. And that's the thing. So we're we're really being, you know, super, super careful about, you know, social distancing, and you know, and testing and masks and all that sort of stuff and making sure that we are on top of our game, all of that sort of stuff.

58:42 Sue Theatres are full of dangerous things, aren't they? What are the kinds of safety incidents that you've had to deal with?

58:48 Mr. PWhat theatres are governed by are the same rules in legislation as building sites. So that's always the way to look at it that we every time we put a set up or take a set down, we are bound by the same rules as building sites. So that's what we mean by being dangerous. The thing about being a production manager is it is your job to keep people safe. That is one of the big things. So actually, I haven't got a great deal of stories about safety incidents, what the biggest incidences that I've ever dealt with around any organization I've worked for, is with the general public. So it's, you know, it may be somebody who slips in the car park and breaks or breaks a bone or stuff like that inside an organization. It's our job to keep people safe and work in a really safe manner.

59:34 Sue So you've been doing your job really, really well. Mr. P. Clearly.

59:39 Mr. PAbsolutely. Certainly when Pete Rowe who is who's the New Wolsey theatre resident director, enjoys pushing that envelope and I'm sure audiences will remember people falling downstairs and hanging off of railway signals and all sorts of things that we've had to try. You know, we've had to find a way of making it safe when we have an effect..

1:00:00 SueYes, I was at One Man Two Guvnors where there was that extraordinary falling down the stairs that made me gasp- it was it was brilliantly done, have to say. What are the bonkers things you end up doing to make sure the show goes on?

1:00:13 Mr. P One of my first places I worked we used to do Panto every year like lots places, and it was back in the days when it was still socially acceptable to have real Shetland ponies towing Cinderella's carriage. And these were stabled outside the theatre in a makeshift stable and every day the handler would take them over to the local park to eat a bit of grass. Well on Boxing Day, they'd been penned up for over

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Christmas, Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. So they took them out. And donkeys decided - Shetland ponies - they decided they'd have absolutely enough of their incarceration. So they made a major break for it. And it was getting nearer and nearer show up time. And it ended up with the entire employed staff of the theatre, chasing a Shetland pony around this very large ornamental Park. They did not want to come back, sort of just running away like a game. So we did get them just in time, but I mean, the audience was coming in, but there was still there was still no Shetland pony to take Cinderella to the ball until the very last minute.

1:01:20 Sue That's a brilliant story. So glad I asked you that question. Fantastic. Thank you. So how does how long does it take to get a show up and running from a standing start? Are we talking weeks months..?

1:01:33 Mr. P So making a show from scratch, so working towards a panto in Christmas.. Where are we now… we're in May, we’d be looking at starting to get set builders ready, their set designs signed off, people start looking at casting actors and that sort of stuff, we really are working for like 9-10 months in advance with the big Christmas shows as a rule. Six months before any production starts, any made production, that's when the wheels start turning. And we start, you know, chatting to directors and designers and all that sort of stuff and starting to get meetings together. So it is a very, very long process. So with you know, with the shutdown last year of the industry, it's going to take a while for any theatre to gradually get up and running, especially with work that they haven't already done before.

1:02:22 SueSo this is why opening a closed theatre is so complicated, you can't just turn on a sixpence and open the doors.

1:02:30 Mr, PAbsolutely, absolutely. Because you know, you've got to have something to put on your stage. And that thing to put on your stage needs to be rehearsed, and needs to be built. And even if you look at the West End, I mean, there are people going into rehearsals at the moment, for shows that will open in June and July because they'll have a longer rehearsal and technical period than we would do in regional theatre. So there's a real big ramp up and you know, complicated dance routines to learn or, or music to learn. It's a there's a lot of you know, there's a lot of things that people need to learn before you can even you know, put something in front of an audience.

1:03:06 SueI've been talking to Pete and Sarah about their experience of reopening a theatre, which of course they've done twice in very different circumstances. And you mentioned earlier that you'd been involved in reopening a dark theatre. So can you just tell me a bit more about that?

1:03:22Absolutely. I was involved with reopening Derby Playhouse after it went into receivership, which was a really, really interesting and really special venue to make. It was my first regional theatre and I returned as sort of head of production but it's sort of head of everything with a skeleton staff to get a production

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of The Killing of Sister George open, to having had been made redundant. And at the end of the run of the show that had happened, everyone just walked out the theatre and left - you know turned the lights off. So the theatre was sat for a year or so with nobody in it with the bins still full, with no-on flushing the loos every day. And actually that you know, it's very similar, I think, I suspect to what a lot of theatres will be going through in this reopening procedure, you know, separate from COVID just checking that the place is safe to be in and I know some London theatres, they had floods because there was nobody going in to check on the place and all that sort of stuff. So we were very much re-plumbing the gents. And cleaning, you know, doing so much cleaning, you wouldn't believe you know, the bins had been left for a year. And now it was all of those sorts of things. It is a you know, actually the magical places when they're full of people. But you know, they really need to be cherished and loved because they're such an unusual construction of stuff, you know, big open space and seats and all that sort of stuff in here and getting rid of the mice and all the other things. It was really, really magical and one of the high points of my career but I wouldn't ever underestimate the amount of work involved in just bringing something back.

1:04:48 SueIt sounds extraordinary. And of course, running a theatre is perhaps one of the greatest team efforts because no single person can do it on their own. And perhaps that's why it's so demanding, but exciting to be part of. So what gets you out of bed every morning?

1:05:06It's a really lovely question. So I mean, I think that I mean, it goes back to my earlier comment, which isn't meant as offensive, but it's just, there are people who just do theatre. I mean, I did my work experience at the Belgrade Theatre at 14. And then I started in my local regional theatre at my local council theatre at 16. So apart from the Sunday job, retail, that is, this is all I have ever done for nearly 27 years. So it gets into your blood, my first boss, he said, you make a decision now, either you, you know, go out on the town on a Friday night, and all that sort of stuff, or you commit to it, I committed to theatre. And it's magic, I've worked in so many venues, especially, you know, I've worked in all of the venues in the East Midlands area. And there is nothing more magic than be able to stand in a foyer and watch a full house go into an auditorium. And you don't even need to go in, you know, you can stand in the bar and have a quiet drink while the show’s on and you can hear them laughing or even clapping along with the music, everything else and they'll come out the interval and they'll be that burble in the foyer. And I think that's what gets a lot of us out of bed in the morning. I mean, it is so far removed from you know, going to an office nine to five Monday to Friday, and actually, you’re brightening people's days. And also you can make a tangible difference to people's lives. Whether that be you know, they're coming to see panto, or whether they're coming to see an Ibsen or a more familiar play. It takes people differently. It's a broad church theatre and I've always been very active in pushing the fact that theatre’s for everybody. You know, my I come from a very humble background, I didn't go to university, I've got a few GCSEs. That's it. That's why I work in this industry. And I love it. So it's, I think it's you know, I always push that thing that you know, you're getting out of bed for the people around you, the amazing people, you get to work with the amazing actors, you get to work with creative people and to, to welcome people into a shared experience. And hopefully, as we get through and see the back end of this pandemic, then there'll be more people having a shared experience in an auditorium and having absolutely fantastic nights out at the theatre.

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1:07:17 Sue Well we're really glad that you did make that commitment to theatre all those years ago, Mr. P. What do you think is the single most important thing that will help theatres to reopen after the pandemic? Is it as simple as audiences being willing to come back?

1:07:30 Mr. PThat's I think, that's the million dollar question. And I think it will be a slow burn, you know, we'll be led by science, to some extent, we’ll be led by people's confidence and will be led by the vaccination program as well. It's the politics around walking into a theatre at the moment. As we all know, it’s a really contentious time, people will keep calm and work out what risks they want to take, walk into theatre, I think, when the West End theatres reopen. You know, like it or not, they're going to get the big public profile. And that will help the rest of us as an industry to say that we're open, and we're a safe place to go. They're the big money, big bucks shows and need big audiences to come in, and they're going to push that forward. So I think it's about hearts and minds. It's about people feeling safe coming out to the theatre. It's about people. People wanting that collective experience. And I think over time, we will all be able to gather together in a theatre and watch some wonderful work.

1:08:32 Sue I know I can't wait. I can't wait for that to happen. And I'm reassured that you've got health and safety covered at the New Wolsey and a lot more besides, and it's people like you, Mr. P that will enable theatres to reopen safely. And we want to make sure you stick around. So thank you so much for taking time out of your day to talk to me. I'm really grateful. And it's been really fascinating.

1:08:55 Mr. P That's great. It's been lovely to have a chat.

1:08:57 Sue Thanks, Mr. P. In my quest to understand how to open a closed theatre. I wanted to speak to someone with a national and a historical perspective. So who better than Tom Stickland from Theatres Trust? The Trust was set up by an Act of Parliament in 1976, following the destruction of a number of historic theatre buildings. In passing the Act, Parliament signalled that theatres were of significant national importance, both architecturally and culturally, and needed some protection. Tom Stickland has a background working in numerous theatres in operational roles, and is now the Trust's Theatre Advisor. I'm going to take this opportunity to unwrap his very best advice. Welcome, Tom.

1:09:44 TomHello, thanks for having me on.

1:09:46 Sue So Tom, your role is advising theatres. I guess they've needed more advice than ever in the last year. What has kept you busy over the last 12 months?

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1:09:54 TomYeah, so it's been a really difficult year for theatres and we've tried to stay on top of best practices and guidance we can give to them for the for the safe reopening of those theatres and tried to help them to navigate what's been the extraordinary uncertainty. During this year, we've seen the theatre industry respond to that with great community projects and exploring great ways of recreating the theatre experience digitally and finding ways to survive while ticket income has dried up. And we've tried to spread the word of what theatres have been doing nationwide to try and make sure that theatres are in the best possible place. I've also been trying to tell that story of the value of theatres to decision makers to try and help make that case for support. Going into this, we were really worried about the fragility of the theatre ecosystem and how many theatres we might lose during this closure period. And while not too many theatres have closed so far, we’re always on tenterhooks to make sure that the theatres are supported and able to ride through this wave of this very difficulty. And certainly we’ve yet to see how the theatres will emerge from this. But we hope to be able to give them the advice to be able to be on the strongest possible footing to reopen as they become able to

1:11:07 Sue Re-opening theatres is quite a complicated business, isn't it? It's not as simple as rehearsing a play and inviting an audience to buy tickets, is it?

1:11:15 TomNot at all. In general, historically, we'd say the longer theatre is closed, the harder it is to reopen theatres. Buildings are used to being used and used to being well maintained on a on a daily weekly basis. And getting on top of that maintenance is a real challenge for these theatre organizations who might not have been able to go into the buildings and do the repairs that they need to do or make sure that all of the plant and machinery is working properly. And they also need to look at how they can rebuild the audience confidence. Certainly, theatre-going is a tradition for some families, pantomime being a very, very important part of that. And if those traditions slip away, then it can be difficult to maintain an audience that's vital for the survival of the theatres. And that's not to mention those relationships that are required with the with the producers and the people who create the work on the stage and the lead time that they need to be able to create a full program; you might usually need six to 12 months to book in a year's program. And with uncertainty of when that might be it's been a very challenging time to work out how to program these shows that have been moved around the diary many times.

1:12:23 Sue Yes. And the New Wolsey has a fantastic panto-going audience, it's a really strong tradition for us. And we absolutely recognize that long lead in periods shows often need the before they can actually arrive on a stage. And there's a big difference between opening a theatre that's been closed for 12 months, and opening one that's been dark for 10 years or even longer. Is it fair to say that until COVID-19, Theatres Trust was mostly concerned with preserving or reopening historic theatres all over the UK?

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1:12:55 Tom Well, not really, Theatres Trust is not a heritage body. And we've always worked with theatres of all ages and scales. Prior to this crisis, I was just as likely to be advising about the theatre that hasn't even been built yet as a 100 year old theatre. However, the work that we've done with theatre buildings – the theatres at risk theatres register, does focus on those heritage buildings and those buildings of cultural and architectural significance. And we found this year that the sorts of advice that we've been giving to those theatres has become applicable to a much broader range of theatres, the things about looking at the viability, and reconsidering the vision of these organizations and building a coalition of political will to support the theatres and ensure that they are protected,

1:13:38 Sue What sorts of advice are theatres asking of you now - has it changed as a result of the covid 19 pandemic?

1:13:46 TomIn many ways it has changed because I think a primary slant of what our advice has been over the last year has been how to manage uncertainty and how to build scenarios for the reopening when you don't know the conditions that you will be able to reopen in, and ensuring that theatres aren't over committing to one approach to then have to swerve when the when the restrictions change. So that's been a new branch of advice for us. But then the advice about how to manage your building safely is always high on our agenda. And while the science is changing under COVID-19 we're constantly updating that guidance to make sure that it's applicable to current facts. It's still a part of the advice that we give - is about how do you run your building safely. And so that's still a key part of what we do. So in some ways, it's different, but in many ways, it's just an adaptation of the same advice that we've been giving to theatres all this time.

1:14:41 Sue Okay, so what's the most complicated aspects of reopening a theatre? Is it the building or the people are both?

1:14:49 TomIt's, it's got to be some form of both. I think you need to have an organization that works well primarily, but that means understanding your building, how to look after it and how to run it safely and efficiently. Learn how to make sure it's accessible. You need to understand how your staff and audiences and stakeholders interact with that building. A theatre building’s a complex machine, but there's no point in it without skillful operation and the program of producing a great variety of performances. Theatres can be grand palaces of the imagination. But without the people inside them, they're nothing - the building and the people who run them are inseparable if you want a re-opening project to succeed, a clear vision, a public demand, and a building, which is fit for purpose, that sort of the tripod in which these projects succeed or fail. The funding will follow if you can make the case for those things.

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1:15:39 SueI love that description, a grand palace of the imagination. That's fantastic. So what in your experience are the things people don't realize they have to do when reopening a theatre? What are the things that people overlook or underestimate?

1:15:54 TomI think the thing to remember is that theatres are more than one thing; they aren't just a place for a specific type of performance. And to succeed, you need a broad range of performances for a broad audience. And you need to make sure that you have an appropriate food and drink offer to make that building viable and make sure you're making enough money to keep the heating on to keep the building going. These are large public buildings, and it's sometimes the boring things that are important. One of the highest profile campaigns that Theatres Trust ever ran was about improving toilet facilities. And certainly whenever we talk about improving in reducing the keys to toilets, it generates a lot of interest from audiences. And I think they'll all agree that's one of the one of the important things for them. But I suppose if you're setting out on a project to reopen a theatre, they're probably not top of your list at the beginning,

1:16:41 SueI completely get why people would be passionate about more toilets -I totally get that. And we've actually just done a refurbishment that has increased the number of toilets at the New Wolsey Theatre,

1:16:52 TomI'm sure that will be very popular.

1:16:53 Sue Yeah, absolutely.

1:16:55 SueSo do you have to be a bit bonkers to try and reopen a theatre that's been closed for a long time? It seems to me that you need a kind of eccentric energy to see past all the many obstacles. What kind of person takes on this challenge?

1:17:10 TomnI wouldn't say that you need to be a bit bonkers. I think I would say you need tenacity and vision to deliver one of these projects. It's about building a coalition of people around you to make the project a success. You need that political will have the buy in of local authorities and those sorts of people to be able to drive the project forward. But you also need to demonstrate that public demand from the public themselves. And often that comes with a group of willing volunteers who are very helpful in that process. And you also need to bring on board the funders and the theatre industry so that producers and promoters have the confidence in the building and the funders willing to part with the essential capital funding to get it ready to go. I think that's it's about making sure that you have you can build up the right people around you and can sell that vision of what this theatre can be.

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1:18:02 Sue Yes, because it's often public money, isn't it, that supports a theatre, not always though..

1:18:08 TomYeah, it's often it's often an important part of the mix in theatre, whether that's towards revenue of actually operating the building or the capital of getting it going in the first place, or even loan financing - nobody borrows cheaper than the local authority. So we've seen some theatre open projects recently, where the local authority have unlocked some of their borrowing powers to enable a project to go ahead.

1:18:31 Sue Okay, so what happens when a theatre does close permanently, perhaps because it's run out of money, and that coalition of support hasn't been built? Can the building be redeveloped?

1:18:43 TomSo Theatres Trust’s primary focus is always about trying to protect that theatre asset as a community building and making sure it's there to animate the town centre. I think the vital role of theatres in making towns and cities a place people actually want to go is particularly important in this day and age. So we will always push for them to be retained in that way. And we have managed to secure additional planning protections to make sure that developers have to demonstrate that theatre use isn't viable before they start changing that building to an alternative use. So part of the planning system we've managed to - we will always advocate for - the retention of it as a community building. However, there are sometimes situations where the theatre building does not have the current level of public demand that's needed to operate as a theatre on its scale at that time. And in those cases, we look to try and make sure that the theatres are able to be returned to theatre to use down the road. So if you're making changes to a building, we try to ensure that the auditorium could be restored and that you're not permanently removing this asset from the from the local area because it's very difficult to build the new theatre and generally more expensive and certainly not as ecologically sound sometimes as reusing an old one and those towns centre sites are hard to come by.

1:20:02 Sue So you try and ensure it's done in a way that's not permanently closing the door for the future.

1:20:07 TomAbsolutely. And it might be that there's a bit of work that's required to bring it back to that theatre use. But as long as that possibility remains, then the strong nostalgic pull that people have towards their local theatre shouldn't be underestimated. And we've seen theatres that have been closed for decades. But then the stories come out of the woodwork of people's first dates or any sort of thing that link them back to that place. And it can have a strong kind of community value in the building and the kind of identity of a place that’s often defined by those kind of key public buildings like the theatres.

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1:20:40 SueWhat do you think we lose when a theatre closes? Presumably, it is that community, the thing that the community really values and they notice it, but does theatre closure have a wider impact? Perhaps nationally?

1:20:55 TomCertainly, the theatre industry is dependent on a touring infrastructure. And there's an ecology of theatres that are required to support theatre tours require a certain number of similar scale theatres to be able to make their project viable and be able to bring the shows to different venues. And if we start seeing theatres closing, then quite quickly, that can have a knock on effect of what tours can afford to go ahead. And those sorts of things. There certainly is a national impact on the on the closure of those theatres, a small number of theatres could have a big impact on the national picture.

1:21:30 Sue Presumably, you visited lots of closed theatre buildings, and some of them will have been very old, and historic. So what's the strangest or most impressive thing that you've seen?

1:21:42 TomSome of the most exciting things I've seen are the old traps and gadgets that you find under the stages that they traditionally used for the tricks and the visual effects are quite often for the pantomimes of people popping out of the ground or, or moving across their boats moving across the stage. And sometimes some of these theatres under the stage have extraordinary wooden machinery - famously the thunder runs - the giant cannonballs that they run down a wooden track to give the sound of thunder. So those historic bits of stage machinery, some of which are now no longer safe to be used. But certainly there are a few Thunder Runs still able to be used across the country that are really fascinating. And they're kind of a hidden secret. I think that's the exciting thing of being able to go to these places that people don't necessarily always get to go and discover these things. And there's also the grand plaster work and those sorts of things in these in these historic theatres, which you get to get up close and personal with, whenever you're in the theatre .

1:22:45 Sue I love a backstage tour. It is so exciting going under the stage and seeing how the mechanics of how it all works. It doesn't take away the magic of theatre at all. It's just really fascinating. So I always recommend doing a backstage tour if a theatre offers it

1:23:04 TomIt's the magic of what's live, we're so used to visual effects in our movies and these sorts of things that are actually to make that magic trick work, then there's all sorts of gadgets that are required. It's quite fascinating.

1:23:17 Sue So what's been your greatest achievement in seeing a theatre reopen? Where was it? And why did it matter so much?

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1:23:25 TomThe thing with these beautiful buildings is that they can be awe inspiring, but it's really when you see them in use, that it seems worthwhile to invest all of the time that you do into these long projects to get theatres re-opened, is discovering a gem that I didn't know about before, like going into the Grand Winter Gardens in Morecombe, that was saved by the determination of a group of volunteers. And they're always working to bring it back to its glory days. But even now, keeping that building active and making sure that the local community are able to use that space and, and enjoy the kind of the heritage of their place which they wouldn't have been able to if it wasn't for these volunteers. Or it's those quirky buildings like the Grand theatre in Portsmouth where the audience sat at tables and meeting up with people they don't know and get chatting through the show. And under the ship timbers which make up the roof of that building. Really kind of discovering those hidden gems and seeing them in use is kind of a remarkable feeling and when you know that you've been a tiny part of trying to help keep those buildings open is really exciting.

1:24:31 SueIt sounds like you absolutely love your job Tom. What's the most rewarding part of your role?

1:24:37 TomI think it is that - seeing the people in the space and seeing these buildings re-imagined into being suitable for the modern age. Certainly what I remember going to the Chester Storyhouse after it opened and that building is a blend of new and heritage. It's an old Odeon cinema that's then had a theatre - a modern theatre - attached to the back of it - is somewhat controversial from a heritage perspective, but it's a re-imagining of what it is and what it can be as a public space. That old Odeon building is the central library for Chester. And so that building is animated throughout the day. And you just see people kind of enjoying the space and feeling that the theatre is accessible is open to them. So it's those sorts of things where you say, Okay, we've got this grand, we've got this great theatrical heritage in this country, and but we also are looking forward to making sure that it doesn't just become a thing of the past, this is a living cultural experience for our country.

1:25:37 Sue That's so important. And I think in the last 12 months, we've all really noticed how important it is. How can people listening to this podcast support the work of Theatres Trust?

1:25:48 TomWe offer our advice to theatres for free, but we're grateful to all of our friends and corporate supporters who are able to help who support our work and make us able to do that. So people can become a friend of corporate sports by signing up on the trust website, which is Theatrestrust.org.uk trust and we're also running a crowdfunder at the moment called Save Our Theatres. And that's something we set up during this year when we noticed that many theatres were struggling to meet the revenue costs that they needed to keep their buildings open. So it's a crowdfunded campaign, where you can support lots of different theatres across the country. And you can also support the Theatres Trust on that platform. So you can just search crowdfunder save our theatres..

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1:26:30 Sue Great. I've loved learning about the work of Theatres Trust, and I have to say, I'm encouraged that there are people like Theatre Trust supporting theatres right across the UK, and I really hope listeners get involved. Thanks very much, Tom, you've been a great guest. I'm really grateful for your time.

1:26:48 TomNo worries. Cheers now, Bye.

1:26:52 Sue Thank you so much for joining me in Dressing Room 3 at the New Wolsey Theatre. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please tell your friends and family and tell us too. You can message us via Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And if there's something you'd like me to unwrap in a future episode, just drop me a line at: podcast@wolseytheatre.co.uk. If you want to come and see a show, or take part in one of our community activities, our website is the place to look: Wolseytheatre.co.uk. This podcast series is for entertainment purposes, is produced and managed by our friends at Podtalk.co.uk and is the copyright of the New Wolsey Theatre.

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