Ouch Disability Talk: 10th Anniversary

bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Kate Monaghan and Simon Minty

KATE AND

SIMON

It’s our birthday!!!

[Jingle: Ouch, Disability Talk from the BBC with Simon

Minty and Kate Monaghan]

SIMON The Ouch show is ten years old. Thank you, Kate. What a

celebration.

KATE I’m getting too excited by my – what are these things

called even?

SIMON I don’t know you sort of blow them and they make this

kind of awful noise. ((blowing party poppers)) You’ve

done very well. You’ve got decorations up it’s like

Christmas again but this is our birthday.

KATE I’ve brought the birthday banners, I’ve got the cake,

candles, we’ve even got these funny party hats.

SIMON Our guests are wearing funny hats and moustaches.

KATE They are. We’re just partying down.

SIMON They’re slightly reluctant but yeah they’re game.

KATE We’re partying like it’s 2006 because we’re ten years old.

And to mark the occasion we’re going to be doing a bit of

a flashback of some of the highlights. We’re resurrecting

an old quiz that we used to do and it’s probably not the one

you’re thinking of. And in a couple of minutes we’re going

to be talking to three media professionals and cultural

commentators.

SIMON Are they disabled, most of them?

KATE Most of them I think, yeah. That’s generally why we get

them on the show.

SIMON What’s your kind of earliest memories of Ouch or if you

could pick out a highlight from ten years?

KATE Oh that’s a good question. I remember when Ouch very,

very first started and I was living in Bristol and I saw on

the Ouch message boards that they were going to be

starting a podcast and I, at that time, was very young and

was very excited and thought I want to do something on

the show, I want to be a presenter, I want to do this. So I

remember emailing them and saying, “Hey, are you

looking for anyone to do anything?”

SIMON Youth, youth voice.

KATE Yeah voice of the disabled youth and I got a very nice

email back from Emma Tracey saying, “I’m afraid the

presenters are all decided but keep in touch and please do

listen.” And then here we are so many years later and I’m

doing the job I always dreamed of.

SIMON Just not the youth bit anymore is that right?

KATE Hey shut up. I mean apart from the stuff that I’ve done

what’s been your highlight from Ouch?

SIMON Yes obviously you’ve taken it to another level there are

now two ways about that. I think like you but it is a time

and place; I remember I was travelling, I was doing a lot of

work abroad so I’d get all the podcasts and that became

my radio when I was abroad. And you would hear Mat and

Liz, who we will hear a little bit later on, just talking about

bits and bobs. The bit I loved was this sort of irreverence,

it was full of joy, it was full of celebration. That was the

bit it was saying stuff that we might say just when we’re

down the pub or out with friends and yeah it was great.

And I actually came on to one show to do the news bit in

the very early days, I remember being very nervous and

very sick and there was something about do we get paid or

whatever, I was I don’t paying I just want an Ouch mug

and they gave me an Ouch mug which I still have and still

use, it’s a joy.

KATE And you’re still being paid in Ouch mugs even to this day.

SIMON I have quite a collection now. And egg cups they’ve

started doing which is nice.

KATE I’d just like to put out there that I would like an Ouch mug

as well, so if somebody can sort that out for me that would

be brilliant.

SIMON Okay. So now in the first of two appearances on today’s

show, we’ve mentioned them already that’s Mat Fraser

and Liz Carr. They’re going to have a little bit of a potted

history starting a piece of music you might find

annoyingly familiar. Are you ready, Kate?

[Playing Ouch theme tune]

LIZ In late March in 2006 the BBC’s disability website, Ouch,

which had been going for nearly four years at the time,

introduced a new string to its bow – a podcast. In the early

days it was presented by Mat Fraser and me, Liz Carr, both

of whom were well known as performers on and off the

disability circuit.

[Playing clip:

Liz: It’s about when you don’t walk you can wear

whatever you want on your feet can’t you?

Mat: Absolutely.

Liz: Do you know what I mean? It’s one of the benefits.

Mat: A lot of wheelchair users go for the rugged Dr.

Marten don’t they?

Liz: And a lot of them go for no shoes at all.

Mat: Yeah and then you see their weird purple feet.]

Mat: The discussion was often quite different to what

people might have expected on a show about

disability. The aim was to talk about disability in the

way your friends do down the pub.

MAT That’s right ladies and gentlemen, I took part in a freak

show again – lots of money I made.

LIZ Mat, as you know you missed my birthday which for a

disabled person isn’t just another day, it’s a huge

achievement.

It rarely spoke about issues. The presenters and producers

weren’t intending to make poignant content but instead

wanted it to be deliberately throwaway – a bit like a radio

breakfast show. For some people the effect made it a

powerful listen and many people found it inspiring. Some

disliked the fact that Mat and me referred to themselves as

crips and they found our famous quiz Vegetable,

Vegetable or Vegetable a little too much of an

uncomfortable listen.

[Playing clip:

Liz: … parlour game Animal, vegetable or mineral. In

the game the two hosts of the Ouch podcast have 90

seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled

caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly

intelligent questions. Do you have Asperger’s?

Caller: I don’t.

Mat: Are you learning disabled?

Caller: No.

Liz: Are you on the autistic spectrum?

Caller: I’m not.

Mat: Are you on the artistic spectrum?

Caller: I am on the artistic spectrum.

?: Do you use crutches or a frame or anything?

Caller: I don’t, no.

Mat: Do you acquire assistance to…]

Over the years as the BBC changed and more video and

audio internet content became available the podcast spread

its wings and started to focus more on interviews, people

and some of those big topics which they hadn’t tackled in

earlier incarnations. In 2011 Ouch became part of BBC

news.

[Playing clip:

Hannah: I completely agree with what you’ve been

saying, Alistair, about…

Alistair: Vote Labour then, Hannah.

Hannah: I don’t think I’d have a roof over my head if

that happened.]

MAT Mat and Liz moved on making way for Rob Crossan, Kate

Monaghan and Simon Minty.

[Playing clip:

Kate: And welcome to Ouch. Simon, hello.

Simon: Hello, Kate, how are you. Nice to be here.

Kate: Nice to have you here.

Simon: You’re very lucky.

Kate: I am.

MAT Over the years it’s won several awards including a

prestigious Royal Television Society award for innovation.

LIZ I remember the night well.

MAT The programme has had many memorable moments in

interviews. Breaking Bad’s RJ Mitte in 2009.

[Playing clip:

RJ: I’m trying on clothes and this dude starts making

fun of me.]

Ruby Wax taking offence at Rob Crossan in 2012.

[Playing clip:Rob: Do you think that your depression

would have taken a different form if you weren’t in the

public eye?

Ruby: You’ve got to stop saying stuff like this you really

do.]

Scroobius Pip and Blaine Harrison dropping in.

[Playing clip:

? a club night a year or two ago, good to hear from

you again.

?: That’s right, good to hear from you.]

And in-depth discussions on things like mental health of

physically disabled people.

[Playing clip:

? Because they’re not allowing for crip time or how

long it take you to get up in the morning or the

impact of pain or fatigue.

Simon: Did you say crip time?

? Yeah crip time.

Kate: That is exactly what I’m going to call it from now

on. I love that.]

Here’s to the next ten years. Happy birthday Ouch.

LIZ Happy birthday Ouch.

KATE Gosh such a lot of history there, and more from Mat and

Liz later. Now in the manner of a self-congratulatory

presenter I’m going to read out a tweet we received last

week, it’s from Lucy Hardy. She says, “As a partner of

someone with a disability I love your podcasts. You never

try to sugar coat disability, always very funny and honest.”

Well we’d like to think so, Lucy, that’s nice isn’t it?

SIMON Really nice. Thank you, Lucy, yeah.

KATE Yeah thanks for the tweet.

SIMON No sugar coating.

KATE No, never here. And that leads us nicely into the next

segment of the programme. Now some media

commentators say podcasts can be more authentic than

mainstream broadcasts and Ouch has won several awards

and has indeed been regularly described as authentic.

SIMON On the phone we have podcast pioneer, Helen Zaltzman,

who presents The Allusionist and the long-running Answer

Me This podcast. Helen, why might podcasts sometimes

be more authentic than broadcasts?

HELEN Well there’s not much filter between the listener and the

podcaster because you don’t have like a radio station

adding layers of separation and different people before you

get to the presenter it’s pretty much just the podcaster and

the listener. And also anyone can do one who has an

internet connection and something to record on and that

could be as basic as a mobile phone. And that means you

don’t have someone giving you permission to go ahead

and do it and you’re not dealing with a radio station

deciding who their listeners are beforehand and deciding

what those imaginary people will and will not tolerate.

So it’s always a great surprise to me the people that listen

to my shows because I’ll see on our Facebook wall that

there’s a middle aged cage fighter chatting with a 12 year

old school kid, and you think they probably wouldn’t chat

in real life but they have this thing in common. But if we

tried to cater to either of those demographics you’d really

fail.

KATE Do you think that if your show was on the radio then do

you think it would be different?

HELEN I think once you are used to making a show yourself it’s

quite difficult to go into someone else’s station and abide

by their rules and their clock. I think it’s pretty radio

friendly I don’t think of doing anything particularly

controversial, but the fact that it’s genuine, because why

would I make something that I didn’t feel was genuine and

didn’t really want to make off my own bat. I think people

do feel that.

SIMON I think one of the great things I think with podcasts, as we

said, it’s our voices, it can be very niche and there’s so

much different content out there, there’s downloads.

Where are we hearing the fresh and interesting stories and

voices, what’s caught your ear?

HELEN Well I ((0:09:51.4?)) started podcasting in the last year and

I think when they announced they were going to do it

everyone thought oh it will just be the audio version of

them doing the 27 pictures of ((Datsuns - 0:10:00.6?)) that

will make you laugh. But it’s actually really smart. It’s a

nearly all female team for a start which is incredibly

unusual in podcasting.

KATE That’s pretty cool.

HELEN Yeah. And most of the shows are hosted by women. And

they’re very smart and there’s a kind of refreshing

((0:10:14.7?)) to them. And they have a show called

Another Round which is hosted by two black women

which is not a combination you see on TV here or you hear

on the radio. And they interviewed Hilary Clinton which is

a very big get and they’re very entertaining company but

also incisive and kind of terrifyingly clever.

KATE So what would you like to be hearing more of then? What

role do you think podcasts actually have in the future of

media?

HELEN I’d love to hear things that I can’t even imagine. I think

there’s a lot of untapped talent in the UK because fewer

people have taken to podcasts yet. But if you have a really

niche idea there’s no reason why that niche idea can’t be

massive because there are still millions of other people that

might share your views on that or want to hear them. So

even though it wouldn’t get on TV probably or radio it

could be a big podcast.

KATE I found a podcast the other day that was totally niche, it’s

like basically analysing The West Wing episode by

episode.

HELEN Oh my friend makes that show.

KATE Really?

HELEN Yes. There are loads of episode by episode podcasts. There

were two about Colombo, a couple about Twin Peaks.

KATE Yeah. It’s amazing. Anyway thank you so much for your

time, Helen.

SIMON Thank you, Helen.

KATE That was really interesting.

HELEN Thank you for having me.

KATE Thank you. To continue this discussion and to bring it all

nicely back to our favourite subject of disability let’s turn

to our studio guests. In front of me right now is Tanya

Motie, a former BBC television executive who worked for

a long time in children’s TV, but is now part of the BBC’s

Director General’s Independent Diversity Group. Tanya is

obviously disabled herself. Is it hard pushing to get

diversity and in this specific case disability on TV, Tanya.

TANYA Yes I think it is. I think it’s a constant, constant battle.

There’s lots of fantastic initiatives and there’s lots of

goodwill particularly from the very, very top of the

organisation, we’re talking just about the BBC, but in fact

all broadcasters are. But there’s a big gap between

people’s ambitions and people’s vision and then what

actually happens on the ground. So yes I think it’s a big

uphill struggle.

SIMON David Hevey is with us. Hi there, David.

DAVID Hello.

SIMON You describe yourself as a media professional. You’re

presently the project director of the National Disability

Arts Collection and Archive; and in 1999, I remember this,

you directed the landmark BBC series The Disabled

Century amongst other things.

DAVID I did yes.

KATE And down the line in Washington DC, he was on last

month, but we just love him so much he’s back again. And

today we’re calling him a Disability Cultural

Commentator, I can’t even remember what we called him

last month.

LAWRENCE Oh I’ve been called all sorts of things.

KATE That’s right, it’s Lawrence Carter-Long. How are you

doing, Lawrence?

LAWRENCE Hey good. How’s it going?

KATE Yeah really well, thank you.

SIMON So I’m going to throw this open to everyone. Who would

you say is the most authentic disabled character on

television? It doesn’t have to be past it could be present.

DAVID Mat Fraser or Liz Carr.

KATE I mean you didn’t even think about that and you didn’t

even mention a character on TV, you just said two people

who I reckon are your friends.

DAVID Liz Carr’s on TV. Liz Carr, not they’re not my friends. Liz

Carr, Silent Witness, allowed to be a lot about herself in a

mainstream BBC1 drama. Not a massively overdeveloped

character but neither is she a disablist cliché.

SIMON Is this just because you heard them a few minutes ago and

you are just sort of giving them a bit of love is that what it

is?

DAVID No Liz Carr’s paying me £10 per word. I’m a media

professional I’ve got to monetise, I mean the crisis in

digital is trying to make money. That’s a joke!

SIMON Daniel what do you think most authentic?

TANYA Well I’d have to agree, I think, that Liz Carr’s role of

Clarissa in Silent Witness was a real breakthrough moment

for TV. And it’s so important because everybody

recognises her, people see her as part of the whole. So to

begin with she was brought in as a minor character but

now she’s part of the cast.

KATE But why is she more authentic than someone say Lisa

Hammond on Eastenders, for example?

SIMON Very good question.

TANYA Well I think it’s because... Well I actually think that

there’s some really, really good work that’s been

happening with Lisa as well; but I think it’s because of the

fact that Silent Witness was a big 9 o’clock drama. The

whole Liz Carr character is so good and well-rounded and

authentic is because there’s a certain amount of freedom

there I think in the scripting so you get moments of Liz,

she injects humour into it, there are little asides that you

know full well are coming from Liz. And I think that’s

why it’s been so effective. I mean it would be really good

to see her storylines develop and for her character to

become bigger and rounder.

DAVID In my view the reason Lisa is on Eastenders and Liz is on

Silent Witness is because of social media and podcasts and

a massive move whereby difference and diversity are kind

of your friends. So it’s not such a big deal to have disabled

and diverse people on YouTube, on social media. So that’s

the zeitgeist amongst the audiences anyway. So analogue

telly has caught up with oh well actually why don’t we

include them anyway as characters because the strange and

the other it’s a seller.

KATE Lawrence is it…

DAVID There are reasons you know there are demographic reasons

why it works as well which is what makes it interesting to

me.

TANYA One of the things that I think really needs to be mentioned

in all of this, and in fact now we’ve had that discussion

about Liz Carr, I think the area where I think the BBC in

particular is strongest is in fact in children’s. If you look at

a programme like The Dumping Ground which is a

brilliant programme. The characters there are incredibly

well drawn as characters and you have all sorts of

disabilities represented there because that is what it is like

when you’re in care. And the research…

KATE So The Dumping Ground it’s the lead on from the Tracy

Beaker series.

SIMON We’ve had guests on the show haven’t we?

KATE We have. We had Ruben Reuter who plays Finn, he was

on our Christmas Special which everyone should listen

back to because that was a joy. So Ruben’s been on the

show before. And then there’s also Annabelle Davis.

TANYA Yeah who plays Sasha.

KATE Who plays Sasha who’s Warwick Davis’ daughter.

TANYA Chris Slater as well, Chris who plays Frank he’s another

fantastic actor. And I think that’s one of the things that is

really great and this follows on from the whole thing about

podcasts and being able to slightly go under the radar;

children’s is quite a small department and they can decide

something and then they can make it happen. And that’s

what’s happened with The Dumping Ground. And the

writers they want authenticity and so there’s been a drive

to get young disabled talent on screen.

SIMON David?

DAVID The big event of authentic voices was the Channel 4

Olympics/Paralympics because the speed… The speed of

inclusion matters and how fast you have to turn round and

turn over with the right disabled crew, researchers,

presence – you can get authentic voices out, fast and

profound to large audiences. But the trouble lies on the

slow burn media when there isn’t diversity in the

production and people start to project what they think goes

on.

TANYA Exactly. Exactly.

DAVID And they think that’s what it must be like to be disabled.

They don’t understand the basic tenet that all people are

normal to themselves, and all people are quite simple

about their own lives even if it’s barriers based.

SIMON I mean we do it was very specific because The Last Leg

that came out of the Paralympics the sort of ((0:17:46.9?))

show and still existing. Lawrence, is there an authentic

voice in the US that speaks rather than scripted?

LAWRENCE There are a lot of people that do things like podcasts and

there are authentic voices and people that bring their own

experience to the work that they create. I don’t think that

we’ve seen anything really break out in a mainstream way

or get really backed by the networks in the way that has

happened in the UK. It’s unfortunate because I know a

great number of disabled talent people that are creative

producers, directors, writers who I think given the

opportunity could bring a nuance and a depth to the types

of characterisations or representations that we’re not

seeing in the States.

Unfortunately people really aren’t getting the

opportunities, we don’t have the same schemes that the

UK has, I hate to be dissing my own country but there

doesn’t seem to be that same kind of attention to

developing that talent in the States that there is elsewhere

in the world.

DAVID Can I just come back? I tell you where I think the big story

that’s missing and I know balance is the catchword of the

BBC, but basically disabled people against the cuts that

whole radical moment not just because they should be

covering politics, but normally in the radical vanguard of

these moves that’s where the interesting stories are. That’s

where the desperate and angry people are; that’s where the

desperate and angry back stories of tough lives are; and

that’s where the “I want to change society” and that’s

where the action that the viewer “Oh yeah I want to

change society too” comes along. So that’s the gap at the

moment in my view about British representation. Where

are those deep stories inside, those lives that think the

current way we live is wrong. That’s the drama and that’s

where I think digital media gets that, so John Kelly, for

example, will upload. But mainstream media isn’t carrying

that kind of texture I think at the moment.

KATE But there are a lot of if you look on documentaries in the

UK now there are a lot of documentaries happening with

disabled people about disabled people.

DAVID Yeah but they’re not about radical change, they’re not

about changing the world. The interesting thing about

social media is the presupposition is ‘change the world-

ness’ it’s everywhere, it’s save the world, save the

Amazon forest, you know change things. And analogue

media’s a bit slow on that now. So they may be showing

loads of disabled people there’s not the kind of how to

change the worldness.

KATE Has it ever been better, are we slow now or have we

always been slow, mainstream media?

DAVID When the analogue media ruled everything they had

sections on BBC2, I mean I broadcast on BBC2 Disabled

Century that was a radical series. We got permission from

the beeb not to do balance, for example, we did what we

called crip POV, disabled people’s point of view only.

And I said the audiences want to see radical attempts to

change the world, we got five million viewers. So that’s

the point. Go for the margins as they see themselves now

trying to change the world, that’s what social media’s

about.

SIMON Go on Lawrence.

LAWRENCE Yeah and I would say as somebody who continues to work

in media that’s where the interesting stories are. Because

what we normally see are those old tired, tragic, heroic sort

of outsider, isolated disabled individual on the outskirts of

society who’s not really moving and shaking. The people I

know are moving and shaking. They are making a

difference. They are causing a ruckus and a fuss. Those are

the stories that haven’t been told before. If you’re seen as a

victim, if you’re seen as a scrounger people aren’t going to

have that kind of impression of you. But if you’ve got the

real lives of people that are actually trying to make a

difference you’re seeing something, the mainstream

audience is seeing something they haven’t seen before.

I think there’s also a divergence in the way that disability

advocacy evolved and developed here in the United States

where we went toward the more political, the more

mainstream. In the UK though it was very closely tied and

connected to the arts and to creating work that pushed the

envelope. And we didn’t quite do it, there were pockets of

it happening here in the States but I think that’s much

more fundamental and profound in terms of the DNA of

the advocacy in the UK than it is in the States.

SIMON You’ve alluded to something, I mean my big passion is

comedy and Abnormally Funny People and stuff. I mean is

comedy a route, is that radical?

TANYA I absolutely think so and I think that The Last Leg has

really shown that that has moved into… I mean The Last

Leg originally people felt that it was going to be something

that was there and that disabled people would really enjoy

it and it would be an entry point for non-disabled people to

be able to understand a little bit more. But in fact it’s just

turned into this juggernaut and it is a thing in its own right,

and it’s just fantastic that they’re handing out prizes to

Jeremy Hunt, for example, and it’s bringing satire into the

centre ground and it’s bringing satire through a disability

disabled lens and I think that’s absolutely fantastic.

But I think comedy has always been able to push

boundaries. I was just trying to think about all of the

people that I think have said really great things and really

made a difference, people like Stella Young and Francesca

– comedy is a fantastic entry point. It’s a shame at the

moment that we don’t actually have that on the BBC but I

do think that we have got the pod Ouchcast… Pod

Ouchcast?

SIMON Yeah that’s what we thought.

TANYA The Ouch podcast.

DAVID Pot ouchcast.

KATE The question is when Ouch first began social media was in

its infancy so obviously it’s our 10th

birthday today, so

we’ve been going for ten years and social media was very

limited. But now there’s self-generated video, loads of

people can do podcasts does that mean that we don’t need

to do disability so much on mainstream media?

DAVID No. No I think you do. What has changed, I mean as

disabled people’s inclusion in economic society, let’s call

it, gets worse disabled people’s inclusion and all diverse

people’s inclusion in media gets bigger, so you can write

your own narrative even if you’re skint. That’s the weird

difference. Now once upon a time there was a congruence

between kind of, if you like, class and capita money and

where you got to, now you can be anything under social

media. That’s the good thing. But the trouble is… So

disabled people own the mix like everyone else. The

trouble is it’s swamped out by volume, is that actually to

get a spearheaded voice is difficult now because John

Kelly could be, for example, leading disabled people

against the cuts, Rocking Paddy as a performer and

uploading to 500 views. That’s the problem. It’s the

volume now.

KATE So you’re saying that everyone can have their voice but

they don’t have the readymade audience…

DAVID They don’t have the audience.

KATE …that mainstream media ((0:24:31.8?))

DAVID And that’s the difference slightly with kind of, if you like,

professional media and non-professional media which in

professional media you’re thinking of where this is going

to impact. So my genre is diverse ((0:24:41.6?)) on the

mainstream. So we’re always getting a third of a

million/half a million/three quarters of a million because

we never had to pay an audience.

KATE Who’s we?

DAVID What projects I’m in.

SIMON He’s a media professional.

KATE He is a media professional.

DAVID Okay. So for example the National Disability Arts

Collection and Archive we launched and we got half a

million impressions. We just did a roadshow about

gathering radical work, we got a third of a million. So

we’re able to steer it and make sure we build. Whereas if

you’re doing your own podcast you won’t necessarily

know how stories build and that’s the disjoin. So the

authentic voice can’t necessarily carry to bigger audiences

because it doesn’t know the steps of drama, the conflict of

the detail and so on.

KATE I guess everyone kind of thinks if you’ve got a good

enough story it will get out there, but the reality of it is…

DAVID In fact it’s the mundanity is the clever bit, uploading your

lunch. Now what we need is the next Mat Fraser phrase to

say, “Here’s my fried egg, it’s stone cold because I’ve got

no heating”. You need the mundane level. That’s going to

be the next big hit.

SIMON So TV though is not dying. You’re saying TV is still…

DAVID No, no I think the TV’s going to stagger… Professional

analogue large scale media will stagger on because it

brings large audiences to one centre. But it is dying

because there’s a massive pluralism of diverse voices each

who cannot get heard without being extreme or without

being in a position. So I don’t think the mainstream

professional, if you like, analogue media is going to die

anytime soon; but eventually it will die but it’s got 20 or

30 years at least.

SIMON Lawrence, what do you think?

LAWRENCE I think he’s absolutely correct. It takes a while for the

mainstream or conventional media to kind of get the point.

That’s why you need the people on the margins pushing

the envelope, telling the stories, being unique, being

creative, daring to take a chance. What you see with the

mainstream media is they’re not willing to take a chance.

They’re afraid that they’re going to offend. And in being

afraid to offend you don’t tell a story that’s interesting,

you don’t tell a story that hasn’t been heard before. You

basically go with the safe or the tried and the true and as

we’ve seen that gets watered down.

KATE Tanya, can I just ask, Tanya, you’re on the DG’s

independent diversity group here at the BBC. Do you think

the BBC is afraid of taking chance, do they water things

down too much?

TANYA Hm.

SIMON You’re in a compromised position now.

KATE Putting you on the spot.

TANYA Well yeah I think they do. I think they want to please

everybody they want to do the right thing, they have lots of

different initiatives, they think things through a great deal.

But I think it’s just that what frustrates me is the speed of

these things. Lots of the structural change I think is

fantastic because they’re trying to get people in positions

of power so they can change things. And those things will

be great but that will take a long time to come through. So

it is difficult. I mean I was just thinking the other day that

we’ve got this programme called, the BBC’s got this

programme called Undercover which is going to have

pretty much an all black cast. How long has it been for the

BBC to get to that position? I mean it’s fantastic it’s

happening, but we’re talking about a black cast and this

has been something that people have been talking about

for ages and ages and ages.

KATE Have we started talking about a show with an all disabled

cast yet?

DAVID That’s a few years off.

TANYA Well how about just a show that has a disabled lead.

DAVID My experience of the DGs is that the people at the top

want to change it all because they hate the great soporific

monolith. The ones at the bottom who want to get in want

to change it all, it’s just that blancmange in the middle that

wants to kind of keep going with the narrative that worked

before.

SIMON Tanya, just quickly.

TANYA I completely agree and I think that’s exactly what’s

happening, you just have it from the top and the bottom

but there’s something in the middle where things get lost

and watered down. I think what’s important is to keep

pushing the margins and I think that we’re desperate, well

I think the whole industry’s desperate for writers with

distinct voices, for performers, for ideas; and I think just

honing the craft if you’ve got a story write and share and

upload because then you’re going to be building your

talent and then hopefully knocking on the doors, and then

hopefully getting into the big mainstream monoliths and

actually get to change things. The funny thing is all the big

broadcasters are desperate for disabled talent. And so it’s

just trying to get those two things connected and keeping

on pushing. That is why I think that for me podcasts are

the authentic voice and we need them and that’s a way of

being able to bring people in.

SIMON Lawrence?

LAWRENCE I think the next wave is going to be about community. For

eons now we’ve seen the disabled person against the world

in isolation and people have sort of grown up in isolation,

they don’t identify as part of disability community. I didn’t

get involved in the disability community until I was 35

years old. Since that time I’ve gotten to know some

amazing people. What you see happening right now, what

you hear happening right now on this podcast is disabled

people coming together with a divergent group of voices, a

chorus, like I said earlier different points of view but with

sort of a same goal in mind. What the mainstream media

hasn’t caught on yet is the vitality, the energy and I think

the newness, the freshness of what happens when you put

that diverse group of people together and the magic that

can come out of it. So I think that’s the next thing we’re

ready to explore and it needs to be really shown because it

hasn’t been shown to this point.

DAVID That’s where old school media’s fallen down; it still thinks

difference would lose us the audience. Whereas in social

media difference drives the audience.

SIMON We could carry on couldn’t we loads, but we can’t we’re

running out of time. Thank you so much, David Hevey,

Tanya Motie and Lawrence Carter-Long, thank you.

TANYA Thank you very much.

DAVID Thank you.

LAWRENCE Thanks.

KATE Coming up…

[Playing music]

That’s one of our all-time favourite tunes we’ve played on

the podcast. It’s learning disabled band, Fish Police, of

course the amazing Fish Police with Fish Water.

[Jingle: The Ouch podcast]

As you probably know, Simon, we used to play a lot of

quizzes and games on Ouch.

SIMON Loved them.

KATE Yeah what was your favourite?

SIMON [Now it’s time for…] I don’t know probably... Veg, Veg,

Veg is the classic wasn’t it? But there are other big ones.

KATE Of course. Well we are resurrecting one of them for you

today. But first we need someone who’s going to play with

us.

SIMON And on the line from Cambridge we have a contestant

ready and waiting to play. Hello Sarah Lighter.

SARAH Hello.

SIMON How are you?

SARAH Good, thank you.

SIMON Now you are part of the Paralympic National Goalball

squad?

SARAH Yes I am.

SIMON What does that do? What position do you play, tell me a

bit more about it?

KATE What is goalball?

SARAH What is goalball yeah, I mean that’s probably a good place

to start. So goalball is a Paralympic sport for people who

are visually impaired. It’s a team sport, so we play three

aside and all of us are blindfolded on court and we have a

ball which is the size of a basketball but it’s got bells in it

so you can hear where it is. And you both stay on your side

of the court and one team of three will throw the ball

underarm so it goes along the floor; and then on the other

side you sort of use your body to block the ball from going

into the goal. It’s a little bit of reverse dodge ball.

KATE So you’re on the floor?

SARAH When you’re defending yes but when you’re throwing the

ball you’re running.

KATE Ah okay. And this is the sport where you wear blindfolds?

SIMON Yes.

SARAH Yes you do.

SIMON And that’s because you are visually impaired but by

wearing a blindfold everyone is equal.

SARAH Absolutely.

KATE So are you going to Rio?

SARAH Unfortunately not.

KATE Oh why?

SIMON Oh good question, Kate.

SARAH Why? Yeah unfortunately only ten teams are going and

we’re not one of them, we just narrowly missed out.

SIMON Is that the brutal thing like the Olympics if you don’t do

well at the last one they drop a little bit of funding and

then it makes it harder. Is that right?

SARAH Oh exactly that. Yeah we lost all our funding unfortunately

so we had to fundraise even go to the Paralympic qualifiers

to keep going as a squad.

KATE So is that your fulltime job, are you a professional goalball

player fulltime?

SARAH I would love to be but unfortunately in the UK we don’t

have any fulltime goalballers. No I’m a medical student at

the University of Cambridge and I do goalball in my spare

time.

KATE Is there a lot of spare time studying medicine at

Cambridge?

SARAH Not really no but you just learn how to organise your diary

really well.

SIMON And how far are you into your studies and also where does

the visual impairment kick in or affect it?

SARAH Visual impairment and studying medicine actually turned

out to be less of an issue than I anticipated. So my visual

impairment is albinism which means I can’t see very much

detail. So what I’ve got, for example, is a pair of glasses

with a built-in telescope and with that I can then see a lot

of detail.

KATE That sounds like inspector gadget.

SARAH Totally.

KATE Glasses with an inbuilt telescope. So you’re training to be

a doctor. What kind of doctor do you think you want to

be?

SARAH So my PhD research looks into low blood sugar in children

and I’ve found this quite exciting so potentially

endocrinology or genetics.

SIMON So Sarah if you can see quite a lot how did you get into

playing goalball with visually impaired people?

SARAH Seeing quite a lot is relative. So I’ve got 6/60 vision which

is about 10% of normal vision. How did I get involved

with goalball? Well I’d never actually done any disabled

sport. I’d always done mainstream stuff but without any

depth perception. I was really bad at catching a ball but my

character is that I would love a team sport. So I saw some

of London 2012, mostly on TV, and really got, I guess

inspired by it, and decided this is quite good fun, this looks

good. And so actually initially I was looking for a blind

football team, there wasn’t one in Cambridge. Then

stumbled across goalball and just loved it straight away.

SIMON You are the legacy, the living legacy.

KATE Is there any part of being a doctor that you decided to

avoid because of your sight? Did you decide I can’t be a

brain surgeon because I can’t see as much?

SARAH Absolutely. I’m not going to become a surgeon because

that would just be too challenging, so I’m going to be

sensible and choose something that is relatively less

visually taxing even to a normal person.

KATE Nice. Sensible.

SIMON Okay. So, Sarah, we’ve not told you what the game is

actually.

SARAH No.

SIMON But based on what you do it’s weirdly quite suitable.

We’re going to play a little game called Mental or

Physical.

SARAH Okay.

KATE Always PC here at Ouch. But the idea is that we fire a list

of conditions, syndromes or disorders at you…

SARAH Oh wow.

KATE …and you have got one minute to tell us whether it’s a

mental or a physical impairment.

SIMON So let’s just test it out, if I say arthritis the correct answer

would be?

KATE Physical.

SIMON And if we say depression you would shout the other word?

KATE Mental.

SIMON This is working really well.

SARAH Okay.

SIMON Sarah is on the line as well.

KATE Oh sorry I was just demonstrating this kind of taxing,

challenging game for people in case they weren’t

following.

SIMON There is an annoying thing about disability which is

obviously some of them are both physical and mental, it’s

not always that clear cut. In fact it’s quite infuriating that

some conditions don’t actually fit nicely into our quiz, so

we are going to allow you to say both should you really

think you need to. So it’s mental, physical or grudgingly

both.

SARAH Okay.

KATE Okay so the goal in the next minute is to get seven of these

correct.

SARAH Okay.

KATE So you have one minute and your time starts now.

SIMON Asperger’s syndrome?

SARAH Mental.

KATE Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome?

SARAH Physical.

KATE You know that because it’s a mixture of albinism with a

rare blood clotting disorder.

SIMON Nail-patella syndrome?

SARAH Physical?

SIMON Yeah. You got it right. Rare genetic condition. Problems

with nails, bones, kidneys and eyes.

KATE Bipolar disorder?

SARAH Mental.

KATE Very good.

SIMON Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome?

SARAH Physical I guess.

KATE Kind off.

SIMON Mental or both, so not quite. Alcohol related dementia it

comes with ataxia and lots of bits and bobs.

KATE Martin-Bell syndrome?

SARAH Physical.

KATE No that one’s mental. It’s also known as Fragile X

syndrome.

SARAH Oh yes.

KATE And it’s a common form of inherited learning disability.

There we’d kind of give it both as well but mainly mental.

SIMON Cornelia de Lange syndrome?

SARAH Both?

SIMON Yea!

KATE Very good.

SIMON This is also known as British syndrome and it’s about

dwarfism.

KATE Klienfelter syndrome? I got that in just before the claxon.

SIMON We can take your answer.

KATE Klinefelter syndrome?

SARAH Pardon, what was that?

KATE Klinefelter syndrome?

SARAH Physical.

KATE Very good. It’s main feature is sterility in men because

you’ve got two or more X chromosomes in males,

interestingly enough. Well I mean…

SIMON What did you score? It seemed to me that you got quite a

lot.

KATE I’m looking through to the booth to see if anyone kept

score there.

SIMON We’ve been told by our producer they forgot to count, they

forgot to count.

KATE We forgot to count. I mean you definitely didn’t get seven

but that’s fine because we’re at the BBC and therefore

you’re not allowed any prizes anyway apart from the joy

of taking part which generally you’ve had whether you

win or lose.

SIMON So the fact that you don’t get a prize and we don’t know

how well you did might be why some of these games were

dropped do you think?

KATE I think that’s probably…

SIMON But they should come back.

KATE One of the signs that it should be…

SIMON Well done, Sarah, that was quite impressive were there a

few guesses in there?

SARAH Yeah in the middle definitely.

SIMON But you said it with confidence like any good doctor

should so we believed you.

KATE Exactly. Thanks for joining us.

SARAH Thank you very much.

KATE Bye bye.

SIMON Thanks Sarah.

SARAH Bye.

KATE And if you want to join in with any future games here on

the Ouch podcast, you know Monopoly, Cluedo – that

kind of thing.

SIMON Lead piping.

KATE Yeah. Then do feel free to get in touch ouch@bbc.co.uk.

SIMON And now it’s time to hear a little bit more from Mat and

Liz. Obviously we all missed them when they left.

KATE Of course.

SIMON But they have been busy and for the next ten minutes or so

we’re going to hear about what they’ve been up to since

they did leave the show.

KATE Which is a lot. They’re now both super successful.

Liz: Mat Fraser.

Mat: ((gargling))

Liz: Ah yes always, always.

Mat: I always used to start with a gargle, Liz, and I

thought for old times’ sake I should start with a

gargle. It always used to annoy Damon but for old

times’ sake I thought I should bring it back because

it’s so good to be back.

Liz: It’s so good to be back. It used to annoy the

producer but that’s why you did it. Don’t you think

it’s a bit weird now they’re popping us in the middle

of a podcast and I don’t know what to do without

the theme tune. Because the theme tune used to be

like huh huh get ready.

Mat: Yeah it was like a training montage.

Liz: Yes and I loved that and the energy and you’d come

off it would be like “right we’re off, we’re going,

what’s in this month’s show?”

Mat: And now, Liz…

Liz: Yeah.

Mat: …when I go online to see your presence…

Liz: Yeah.

Mat: …it’s always in the glamorous context of Clarissa

and Silent Witness because you’re a huge star of the

BBC and in Britain now.

Liz: I don’t think so although it has been four years

which is really, really bizarre. It’s bizarre to be in a

TV show so to be in Silent Witness which is a

forensic TV show and one of the regulars. And just

it’s very strange. It’s been going 20 years so to be

watching a programme, or in a programme that you

were watching when you were younger, then you’re

in it, and I still find that bonkers. And when I’m

actually filming I still find it kind of like ‘uh am I

doing this?’ It’s like I’m playing and I’m play acting

and they’re paying me. This is bizarre! Not a great

amount. But you know it’s like wow! And you’ve

not done too bad yourself. What was that little

programme you were on?

Mat: Yes I was on American Horror Story Freak Show

which was very bizarre. And all because I basically,

you know, I fell in love with Julie Atlas Muz and we

got married in 2012. And then we did Beauty and

the Beast.

Liz: That was pretty much naked Beauty and the… an

adult.

Mat: It contained nudity at the end, unusually for myself.

And we just marked a path of our, you know,

chanting our showbiz love and I ended up, you

know, I’ve always been interested in the history,

cultural heritage of disabled performers, the freak

show – is it wrong, is it right, I don’t know give it a

try, find out. And there I was after 15 years of doing

that on a TV programme about it kissing Jessica

Lange no less.

Liz: In bed with her at one point I recall.

Mat: Yes. And I didn’t lean across and go, “You know

this is first time I’ve been in bed with a multi

famous movie star”. And nor did she lean across and

go “Yes and I’ve never kissed a ((0:42:07.0?))

before, Mat.” We were quite professional at the

time. Sorry we digress I’m talking about kissing.

I’m sorry.

Liz: No it’s always good for you to also just nip in there

what is wrong with you because obviously I’m

obsessed with knowing what’s wrong with people.

Mat: Yes what’s happened? They don’t talk about it on

Ouch anymore. There wasn’t a minute went past we

didn’t have an impairment dig. I’m currently

suffering from IDS, Liz, do you want to know what

that is?

Liz: No. I’ve got no idea.

Mat: It’s irritating departure syndrome. No I know it’s an

old joke now. But listen I challenged the now month

long departed Iain Duncan Smith to a dual because

legally you’re still allowed to do that. It’s just every

time he walked past me I tried to whack him with a

glove which is the legal way of doing it but I could

never reach.

Liz: Was it a glove or a mitten because that loses a bit of

power?

Mat: It was actually even worse, it was a flitten.

Liz: For your little hand. Do you wear flittens?

Mat: I ((0:43:05.1?)) my four fingers in two; two over the

handlebars and two go under. And Julie said looking

at it, “You don’t need gloves with fingers, you just

need a two handed mitten.” So she went off and

got them made. I literally look like a tyrannosaurus

rex now when I’m cycling down the road.

Liz: You live half the time now in New York yeah?

Mat: I do, Liz, I live half the time in New York and…

Liz: Occasionally I don’t know if listeners will hear that,

occasionally you just drop in or out, it’s a little bit

weird and Skypey which is what we’re doing. But

I’m sitting where you used to sit at the head of the

table Matthew.

Mat: Ooh.

Liz: I’m there in the position of power looking into the

whatever you call it, the control room. I am also

hugging an Ouch mug, remember we used to give

away Ouch mugs for the Veg, Veg or Veg the quiz.

Mat: I do. I’m saddened to hear of their demise but glad

that mine is ever more valuable now as an antique.

Liz: I know. Well I’ve got one of the plastic ones

because obviously they won’t let me have sharp

objects or china and I can’t really lift it. I can’t, or if

I did I wouldn’t be able to get my PIP, my personal

independence payment. So I can’t lift it. I’ve got a

straw and I’m drinking my hot chocolate, my

beverage, through that. So that’s nice.

Mat: We used to joke about the DLA now it’s jokes about

PIPs.

Liz: That’s now things have changed you see, ten years

on it used to be DLA now it’s PIP. We were both

single, now we’re both married to women

((0:44:27.1?))

Mat: Yeah. What else has changed?

Liz: Well sitting in the studio pretty much nothing but

nothing has changed and that feels kind of weird and

yet reassuring that…

Mat: Isn’t that the BBC experience though?

Liz: Possibly. I think that’s the tour.

Mat: Well I think that the BBC offers the assurance of

dependable history with the acknowledgement of the

future.

Liz: I don’t know…

Mat: It’s easy for me to say that naked in New York.

Liz: Oh, oh too much. I’m not naked in the studio

listeners, no. Mat Fraser is but it’s okay he said

there’s a towel on the seat so it’s all fine and

reassuring.

Mat: And we used to play Veg, Veg or Veg and I know

the current presenters are talking about it a little bit

and I was listening to a few Veg, Veg or Veg and it

is astounding how seemingly offensive we seemed.

Out of context it could seem really offensive, Liz.

Do you think it’s changed?

Liz: No I don’t think it is, I think that’s the point really.

Yes if you talk about it then people might be a bit

“Wow I can’t believe you do it” but they also

giggle. And I think it was the precursor to things

like The Last Leg. They’re doing stuff on The Last

Leg that seems like “Oh my goodness I can’t believe

they’re saying that or doing that”. And I think we

were joking about those things years ago really. And

I think once you do them people go oh no. I think if

you do it with the right humour and the right

knowledge and insight, we were never doing it to be

rude, we were sort of in a bit of a club. And that was

the thing.

Mat: It was a club of catharsis as well right?

Liz: Yeah.

Mat: Because we say the things that you’re not meant to

say because everybody else has been saying them all

your life and it’s fun to say them. I think it’s really

interesting that The Last Leg are doing it because to

me what that says is this used to be humour that was

for the cripple club only, oh sorry listeners, this used

to be humour that was for the crip club, as we used

to call it, and now everyone’s invited in on the gag

which is one of the… I mean that’s a good thing

that’s changed I think ((0:46:31.5?))

Liz: We used to get letters from people going, “I’m not

disabled but am I allowed to listen because I listen

and I enjoy it.” And I think that was the taste that

actually there is a wider kind of appetite for

disability because actually it touches loads of people

in loads of different ways. And even if it doesn’t

you might be able to see the humour in it when it’s

directed in the right way. And I just think, you know

what I think, this is how showbiz my life is, Mat, so

I was at the hospital this morning just for a regular

rheumatology appointment right.

Mat: Glamorous.

Liz: Had to have blood and whatever and what happens

now which is quite weird is people, I’m used to as a

disabled person to people staring at me and looking

at me in a really weird way, and what I don’t know

any more is are they looking at me because I look a

bit different or are they looking at me because they

recognise me from Silent Witness?

Mat: I had exactly the same thing ((0:47:24.8?))

Liz: …and it does my head in.

Mat: Yeah with Julie. We went deep into Brooklyn to see

a friend’s flat warming party and on the way back I

was like eyeballed so much. And I get stopped about

in more television watching areas, I get stopped

about once every five minutes here. It’s pretty

amazing and often a little irritating but always fine.

But I had exactly that. And a guy was just staring at

me and I was tired and I was like, “What?” And he

went, “Were you on American Horror Story?” And I

felt so guilty. I felt so awful. And Julie and me

talked about it at length because we just don’t know

any more. And I don’t have the required responses. I

used to have an arsenal of responses to those things

but now…

Liz: I think that my experience has been that people

more look at me because of Silent Witness and after

four years. And this morning loads of people

stopped me, particularly because we were sitting

there. I think if you’re in a station or an airport or a

hospital waiting room people have kind of got a bit

of time to go, “It is that woman. Oh it is her.” And

they do come up and they say stuff and they’re like,

“Can’t imagine the show without you.” And the

only reason for saying that is not oh great me it’s

just to say it just shows you the appetite is right for

disabled people to be everywhere whether it’s on

radio or in TV.

Mat: They love it. They love ((0:48:46.1?))

Liz: They do.

Mat: Mr Mannering they love it up them they do. Sorry

that was one for the oldsters because you know me I

have to go back to the 1970s at least every ten

minutes.

Liz: I have to ask you a question. I know you might have

one for me, I know we haven’t got that much time. I

want to ask you: do you in any way think that your

time on Ouch, your five, six, seven years whatever it

was for you, Mat, do you think that contributed to

where you’re at now and what you’re doing?

Mat: Absolutely. Absolutely it was the formulation of a

new mentality in myself. I think we had an immense

amount of catharsis playing together over all those

years. And I had a better sense of myself and

disabled people and our placing in so-called

mainstream society. It gave me more confidence. I’d

say to everybody, all disabled people listening, if

you’re feeling a bit unconfident be a presenter for

BBC Ouch for a couple of years because it really

helps with the confidence.

Liz: You know what now you’ve said that I’m thinking

one of the changes between then and now, what

we’re doing now, is then I didn’t need therapy now I

do. And I’m reckoning it’s because every month we

would get the chance to go, “La, la, la, la” and be

totally understood by somebody else who got it.

Mat: You’re right.

Liz: Or the listeners would get it or the listeners would

write in and go, “Thank you for expressing that” and

that was the joy, that’s always been the joy of the

podcast particularly when we could talk about what

was going on in our lives or things.

Mat: Don’t any able-bodied people dare suggest that it

was therapeutic because that would be

condescending.

Liz: But maybe it slightly was. But I’m convinced,

because I don’t know, people often ask me, “How

did you get the job of Clarissa on Silent Witness?” I

don’t totally know. But in a way they auditioned any

disabled woman who was a wheelchair user who did

anything kind of performance-wise. I’d done no TV.

And I think because of Ouch my name was known.

So I think a few people put me forward. And so it’s

weird, you know I’m not saying do Ouch and not

only will your mental health be amazing and your

confidence. But at the same time you might get this

amazing job on TV but I think it’s sort of brought us

to where we are at at the moment.

Mat: I just wanted to go back to something. With you

people in the airport with a bit of time on my hands,

you know, double check and like check on their

phone they google Clarissa, “No it is her.” With me

the old flippers you don’t get many of them to the

pound in America. Every town in Britain has got a

couple of resident flids and in Germany but not in

America. And because it’s from AHS, American

Horror Story Freak Show I often get the following

thing happen: someone will shout at at least a

distance of 20 to 30 yards in a large airport “Freak

Show!” and point at me and laugh. But can you

imagine if someone had done that ten years ago?

Yeah. Thanks Ouch, and thanks to BBC.

Liz: Thank you Ouch for everything and happy birthday.

Mat: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Liz: Happy birthday to you.

[Jingle: The Ouch pocast]

KATE Blimey, Mat and Liz have done well haven’t they?

SIMON They’re doing very well. I’m very pleased though they are

great.

KATE They’re fabulous aren’t they?

SIMON Very, very good. A bit full of themselves don’t you think?

KATE Well it’s been an amazing ten years on Ouch but where’s

Ouch going to be in the next ten years? What does it look

like for you in ten years time, Simon where will we be?

SIMON Oh man that’s a big question. I would probably be a little

bit contradictory. I’d love to have this on radio or

something to go on to that next level. I love where we are

but I think it needs to go up a gear.

KATE Yeah. To me I think where the One Show slot is that’s

perfect for an Ouch show, BBC1 Monday to Friday 7 pm.

SIMON They call it The Special One, the Special One Show that

will work.

KATE That’s nice, I like it, yeah.

SIMON Man we’re going to be exhausted. We only do it once a

month but to do it… Saying that I like the idea of that that

could be fun.

KATE Yeah. I mean let’s not put limits on ourselves, Simon.

You’re already saying you’re too tired to do it, that’s fine

I’ll get another co-presenter.

SIMON What about a feature film?

KATE Ouch the movie. Yes I’m in. Anyway that’s the end. And

so therefore thanks, as always, goes to the Ouch team:

Beth Rose, Lee ((Cumata?)) and studio managers: George

Thomas, John Hemingway and Drew Lecky. The producer

Damon Rose.

SIMON Thank you so much for listening. That’s to you, the

listener, for the first ten years. We’ll be back in May with

another hour long show and don’t forget the weekly

shorter podcast we call Inside Out. We’re here every

Friday in some form or another aren’t we?

KATE One way or another we’re always here. But now to play us

out it’s one of our favourite tracks from one of our

favourite bands, by ‘our’ I mean our producer Damon

Rose – he loves them, but so do we all. Ladies and

gentlemen here’s Fish Police with Fish Water. Goodbye.

[Playing music]