pac meeting ministry of land

8/6/2019 PAC Meeting Ministry of Land

1/85

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

Ok accounting officer we are going to look at 2006/2007 the issue of National Forest

Authority will be dealt with under ministry of water and environment.

Committee Clerk:

2.6 domestic arrears


Yes accounting officer

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman my response was that the ministrys accumulated domestic arrears are in

respect to alternate contribution to international organizations on factual obligations

which were not fully paid by the end of the year and for the land acquired by the

government including some of ranches that were part of the ranches in the restructuring

exercise. The ministry continues to accumulate arrears mainly because of industrial

capable commitment that it entered into and which commitments subsists this includes

membership to international organizations. Some of the arrears are as a result of running

contracts that do not determine at the close of the financial year. Bituary budget cards doas a result of non fulfillment of planed activities; some of the activities may have

commenced and may not be easy to get out of.


Have you attached the details of the arrears?

Members I think you go this response some time back.

Accounting officer:

This book has been around


No we have it


2/85

Let us find out is this file different from this?

Accounting officer:

Which is that I dont know what is in there

I have given you some updates on part B pull housing.


So this is the update

Accounting officer

Yeah its the update of some answers which are already with you because some activity

has taken place since but the details of these arrears.


So as members are still looking for the details of the arrears

Accounting officer:

I think we had put in the annex


There are no annexes here

Accounting officer:

On that one


No; so we shall take this. Can we take this as our annex?

So accounting officer members on page 6 we have seen here you are making adjustments

of domestic arrears. What do you mean? You are saying over stated, under stated, under

stated, and under stated.

Accounting officer:


3/85

Can your commission allow me for my PS to assist me?


Yeah-yeah the microphone is there for him he may be of great help.

The PS ministry of lands:

Thank you Mr. Chairman and Hon. Members


Yes go ahead


We shall start with the adjustments of 362,390,045 million this was to do with some

tables that were captured under ministry of water after explained so we had also

recognized them in our accounts so doing the reconciliation between the ministries that

was I identified so we had to adjust our tables down wards by that amount.


So these were sent to water?


Yeah to water


Ok

Auditors general are you noting it?

Cross check as if they are there.



4/85


5/85

No such was a contingent yes from the accounting perspective but it hadnt been

recognized any where.


No you pick it


Yeah that is why we pick it here


But you cant pick it under here


No it affects the net worth that it is being picked in this reconciliation of in the net worth.


May be here we did poor mathematics. The contingent was a liability on the book just as

a memorandum now it crystallizes that means now it enters in the books officials. That is

the time we recognize it so you debit ok you debit the


But we didnt recognize it as a contingent


But even if you have not recognized it as a contingent it has surfaced. Ok you were doing

it where was it missing before?


In our accounts?



6/85


7/85

Have you heard?

He debited the results and credited the payables


Yeah


Ok let us go ahead we shall see where they are.

So now let us go to page16 remember there is attached. So it is attached so we have there

the have you seen the statement of memorandum. Accounting officer we can lend you;

you may not be having the photocopy in the office.

Accounting officer:

Thank you Mr. Chairman


Members are we there? Page16 no page 17.

So now we have the opening which is 13.3 billion so where is now the corresponding

credit of that one?

Yeah this note here would be explaining if the figures were up here but the housing

commitments at the beginning includes this; ooh yes-yes you are right you have 12.962 if

we subtract yes it is included. Is it the one?

Yeah it looks because the figure is different yeah the only thing is it subtracts yeah it is

adjusted I think.

The end of year was 12.9 now it went up by 13.3 yeah it might be there lets go to the

next one the 387 so now lets see how much it would be the difference.

The next one


Mr. Chairman you recall the issue of domestic arrears has been a contentious issue when

ever we come here and in all our previous meetings there have been directives to sit down


8/85

to do the entire reconciliation. I remember the last time we appeared here for 2005/2006

we did submit that reconciliation so some where in the process after all those various

adjustments and agreeing on that shows position of the payables in the ministry, it was

observed that there was an under statement in our domestic arrear position by 387 million

which is indicated there.


So this was the one


Yeah 387


So do you have the listing of 382 and 387?


Yeah I have the list of 382, 387 is what we have given you that detail 9. whatever billion.


Is 77 there?


Yeah


So we have now; 72 you have also attached?

The PS ministry of lands

Which one?


The first one 382 is there?


9/85


10/85


Yeah 864 million


But you are telling us here you transferred 2.7

The PS ministry of works:

Ok fine I thought you were asking for the closing balances of that year how much we

transferred where the 313 million comes in, 2.7 transfers met in the previous financial

years.


Yes


It was the accumulative figure for three financial years right from 2003/2004, 2004/2005,

2005/2006 totaling to 2.7 billion that was the transfer for the previous years. But the

transfer letting to the canceled cheque is embedded in that 800.


So you transferred 2.7 but you had a balance of 2.8 are you seeing it?


I dont see the 2.8


The end of year balance was 2.8 billion you transferred 2.7


Yes that is right- that is right


11/85


12/85

That is good

Ok. So are we ok now?


I think so Mr. Chairman


Ok members he is saying he transferred all the money

So we can go on; the only thing we want is the evidence of 101million.

Do you have the evidence of 101 million?


Yes I should be-I should be

Mr. Chairman let me ask which evidence is it.


Transfer of 101 million


It is part of that receipt of 864 million.


Ok. Can you give us the total breakdown of 864 million?


Mr. Chairman if you go back to note 20 I can see we closed with 650 million. Mr.

Chairman the section of 864 it includes the cash balances we had in Bank of Uganda in

the expenditure account of 642,612,855 million as per note 20. it also includes the

cheques that were canceled to a tune of 22, 748,756 million, it also has cheques that went

tarred the un presented cheques to a tune of 199,356,616 million shillings.


13/85


14/85

It is not there we are going to demonstrate that it is not there. You see you are saying

balance why we are going to show you that it is not there. Are you seeing you had

balance of 7.36 you transferred that, you had balance 642 so it can also be embedded

there if it is opening cash. Is it part of the opening cash?


Mr. Chairman I think you can go to page 6 where there is analysis of cash


Yes Page 6

We are there; you wanted page 8 we are there.


Yeah

Depreciation of movement of cash during the year


Yes. It is there so now we subtract 313 so you have 108 million


Of?


So you want me to go through again?


No if you look at this reconciliation here you know out of this 2.8 billion we transferred

2.7 billion there was that cash released in the account of 313 million add the cash to the

cash flow statement the actual cash anticipated at the close of that financial year 235.


15/85


16/85


17/85


18/85


So, who is managing it?

Accounting Officer:

It is the minister of finance according to that agreement I have given you. The bank is

supposed from time to time giving their accounts of the funds to the minister of finance

for us sometimes we go there how much is on the account and they tell us.


With interest?

Accounting Officer:

Well, we dont go into those details.


What is the balance on that account?

Accounting Officer:

30 bnillion I think that is what capitalized housing finance company to become a bank

now.


Then how do you capitalize with workers money?

Accounting Officer:

They have been giving mortgages now through public servants then to the general public

but the scheme which was supposed to be developed to assist public servants who never

benefited from the exercise that one hasnt been put in place, putting place hasnt been

completed.


You are not a signatory to this account?


19/85

Accounting Officer:

No.


No, accounting officer the idea was all civil servants should benefit those who have the

houses should pay then those who pay the money we get should be able to get a house for

those who are coming. Now you have defeated the purpose your selves.

Accounting officer:

No Mr. Chairman I have not because I have gone ahead to propose the scheme. That

scheme needs to be approved before it comes in to implementation. One of the elements

on that scheme is the interest scale and as I have said I have been stuck on that point for

some time. The interest scale because where as the ministry of finance says it should be

market we are saying it should not and they are arriving at that point of compromise now

is really taken some time but again if we are really to agree on that one they would be

moving ahead for the implementation of work because this is now an issue that has been

mobilized by our parliamentary opinion.


No, I think parliament would not refuse to do this; this thing is over due. So what we

want you to do is go and ask minister of finance

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman sorry to interrupt my previous answer was that may be you help us with

ministry of finance.


Now you want our help

Accounting officer:


20/85


21/85

supplementary to run the same account I think that is the most important think. We are

writing to the minister to tell us why there is no statutory instrument, what authority he

got to open this account and how he has been spending the money with out the statutory

instrument.

But also you civil servants are unfair this account is supposed to help you; you should

been the ones who should have raised that fund and they are saying there was no

parliamentary approval and we were not accessing it.

Accounting officer:

You know actually when Mr. Sendaula was still in the office he actually brought the

resolution to parliament but then I dont what happened.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:Yeah there was a resolution but I think he never presented it.

This query was even under ministry of works

Accounting officer:

Yeah that is where he was housing and communication.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:Next


Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman our account at Stanbic is number 1400016610. This account was used to

collect evaluation fees from the beneficiaries of pull houses as observed by the audit. It

was not possible to avail this information at the time of audit because the function had

had not been transferred to this ministry. The function is reverted to ministry of lands

housing and urban development in January and the balance on this account as of 30 th June

is now 22,183,521 million and I have since instructed to close the account and transfer

the balance to the consolidated account.


22/85


Annex 2 is there

You mean our government value is very cheap like this?

Because whenever they value they say 0.125% assuming we have got; the other time it

was about 50 billion.

Accounting officer:

30 actually


30 billions. It should be over 75 million.

Accounting officer:

This has been a collection account money was being transferred regularly and even it has

never been used for this purpose and that is even why we decided to close it because even

the evaluation funds when we do dont draw from this account. So account really was just

collecting and transferring to the consolidated account it wasnt being used for what it

was setup for. It should been drawing many and do the evaluation but it was not used for

that it was just a collection account.


So auditor general I think you have to audit this account. So we send this to auditor

general to audit all the annexes you gave because they are not transferred so let the

auditor general audit them.

Hon. Tindamanyire Kabondo:

Mr. Chairman I want to ask accounting officer. Do you know accounting officer one of

your responsibilities is to ensure proper accountability in all the government accounts in

your ministry?


23/85

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman if you go back to a little bit of history this ministry of mind is new it came

being in 2006 and it has taken it a long time to settle down and begin to work. It took for

example two years for the housing aspect to be cleared what was moving from the

original ministry of works housing and communications which broke down to works and

transport and this one really was created a new ministry. And because of doing and

toiling who is doing what in housing there was no transfer of responsibilities in that area

until later say 2009 Jan that is when I was formally handed over the full housing

committees and its responsibilities, this is an account under that committee and that when

it was handed over is when we started doing what we are saying.

Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire:

So you run this

Accounting officer:

No we are not doing it-we are not doing it. It was still with ministry of works and far as

lands is concerned because works hasnt handed it over.

Hon. Kabomdo Tindamanyire:

Do you see that is it your responsibility as accounting officer?

Accounting officer:

Yes when it is handed over to me. If and it is handed over to my ministry yes before it

comes to my ministry it cant be my responsibility and that handover must be formal.


I think the whole issue which the member is bringing is that you should be aware.

Accounting officer:

Yeah I understand what he is saying but all I am saying is that I could start taking

responsibilities for something that has not been formally given to me.


24/85


This clearly shows governments accounts are understated because this money is not

reflected any where in the accounts of government.

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman it is true that by 30 th June 2007 the starters of the ready accumulated

arrears had not been compiled the position was established by 30th September 2008 to be

660,547,251 million and this position by June had reduced to 506,660,956. I have

actually because it seems these fellows are not really paying this money like they should

so what we have done is to ask the Housing Finance Bank to consolidate this rent arrears

with mortgage obligation of these fellows so that this arrears can start earning some

interest for government.


But if you are in my house and you dont pay I though I chess you

Accounting officer:

But then this is government and these are its citizens and it also goes to those social

responsibilities.


But no dont they get salary?

Accounting officer:

Yes I want to assume that they do and there have been repulsions in meeting the

obligations so instead of keeping on running after them we have consolidated these

arrears with mortgage. So now they will become part of their mortgage obligation and

they will also be attracting some interest.


How do we get it? Rent goes where?


25/85

Accounting officer:

We are supposed to pay in the same account


In the same Bank

Accounting officer:

Yeah the Housing Finance Bank


This is a very complicated case

So now rent we are not so sure.

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman I think with this obligation we shall be sure because even what is

happening is that some of these properties were being sold to third parties which third

parties were even denying the responsibilities but the good thing they hadnt yet taken the

possession of titles. So now when you consolidate them with mortgage even the third

party who has bought the property will have to pay to get clearance of taking the title.


What about those who took before?

Accounting officer:

No, most of these guys actually had not.


Because I am told that goodwill now is on Buganda road flats with 200 million


26/85

So for us who left early we lost. So you are saying you have mortgage there.

So Auditor General is there any thing you can read from that; the only thing is that may

be confirm whether this has been merged.

Auditor General, Auditor General you confirm to us then.

The rate that is has now been part of the increased now the good thing with it now is that

we are earning interest on it that means you refuse to pay so it becomes part of your

obligation it attracts the interest. The only thing you have to confirm if all these have

been now added to the outstanding mortgages

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman out of your observed 261 properties, the beneficiaries in this category at

the time of audit 115 of them have since exhibited mortgages but the delay in executing

mortgages seems to derive the difficulties individuals have in traversing the procedure of

obtaining the title. However, since the function of titling resides in my ministry, it was

agreed that Uganda lands commission should play a modern and growing in assisting

those processing titles to ensure the speed up of the process. Mr. Chairman the problem

here is that we have difficulties which I will admit to and some of the individuals when

they are processing titles individually it takes time for them to go through the process of

our ministry to get a title and this also locks their process of getting the mortgage. So

what we are saying is that we should help these fellows and have land commission deal

with these cases in a batch so that land commission would actually be the one to submit

them to registration for the titles and then it would charge them an administrative fee.

But according to the lands commission they havent sat down as a board to pass it as a

board resolution to be able to do that.


Members you have the listing it is there.

These are people who have not got the execution but most of these have sold this

property. Like this Kololo here, Mpala there I saw it.


27/85

Accounting officer:

But even then Mr. Chairman still the person who bought that thing needs to execute the

Mortgage.


But are they paying the principal with interest as much as they have not executed the

mortgage?

Accounting officer:

They did that that is why have moved down to this stage where now they need to there is

a form they fill it, they do the stamp duty and then they go for titling.


So the only thing is titling?

Accounting officer:

Yes


Isnt there a situation where a third party comes to ask what is the total figure instead of

getting mortgage

Accounting officer:

It is a possibility but I dont know whether it has ever happened where the third party


Many have done it

Accounting officer:

Yeah it happens that would of course oxidize the whole thing that you dont have to go

through mortgages he pays the upfront.


28/85


So the money is now available to lend?

Accounting officer:

At a commercial rate


What percentage is it available?

Accounting officer:

Of that type?


All of them this one you are saying they have paid.

Accounting officer:

It is very high


It is very high; this Mpala all in Kololo is gone, this Acassia here.


Any way Auditor General where is our loss here. Let us look at the loss so that we ask the

accounting officer to pay.

Accounting officer:

Let them go to ministry of lands and housing division and see the gentle man called Mr.

Lubowa.



29/85

They have never left houses up to now down there you will never get houses at Lubowa

they are still there. Mr. Lubowa when are you becoming the PS; he doesnt want with

more appeal in houses.

Accounting officer these are 178 they are supposed to be 261.

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman that list the annex which we have appended there has not been reviewed

like I have reviewed these answers so you may find that when you talk about these 115

who now have performed may be some of them are still being indicated in that schedule

and we need to leave it and now give you one which now reflects 146.


Let us get clear now; one these people have signed they have not only got titles but they

are paying mortgage with interest. Is that true?

Accounting officer:

I dont know whether they are pay this interest. When they do the commitment and they

open up that relationship with the Bank this where unfairness can be made in it because

now from the point of view of the buyer because now you start charging him the interest

and yet he hasnt even got his tile, he has not even finished the mortgaging processes.


But here we are charging

Accounting officer:

Of course if it is the point of his own not being responsive to the situation that is it then

may be it can be because of our problems.



30/85

Accounting officer here the reason is the title whether he has the title or not he has to pay

the interest. So we want you to confirm despite the fact that they dont have the title

whether they are paying because the title will come eventually. Are they paying?

Accounting officer:

We need to establish that.


Because we may be not charging them let me give an example I have seen somebody

here he was given 55 million in

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman Can I ask Mr. Lubowa to tell us.


Yeah he should tell us

Yeah Lubowa tell us

Mr. Lubowa:

Mr. Chairman what happens after paying the 8%,


Yeah go ahead

Mr. Lubowa:

After paying the 8 % of the whole payment the interest begins to accrue so the Bank

computes the interest which has accrued.



31/85


32/85

No, no it cant happen

Hon. Saleh Kamba:

I though you will get the title after finishing all the payment.

Accounting officer:

Yes. And the title is deposited in the Bank.


Auditors General we want you to confirm these people dont have the titles but they are

paying their monthly payments with interest ok that is what we want you to confirm and

if we find out that they are not paying the accounting officer will be held responsible.

Accounting officer:

In that case Mr. Chairman I can get the property and sell it to some one else.


But I am advising you in advance to know that the moment we discover that these people

are not paying the interest.

Accounting officer:

Yeah. But Mr. Chairman how do I engage you to pay they have told you to pay how do I

engage you to pay. The only penalty I can list upon you is to disposes you from the

property.


No, no we dont have any problem with that no I think you have not got the argument we

are saying the moment somebody gets the allocation, he deposits 8% he should

immediately start paying the mortgage even if it is in arrears that means he has the

obligation but the moment we hear you have not told him the obligation you will be

responsible.


33/85

Accounting officer:

No that is in terms of the letter of offer.


Ok. Go to the next

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman there we some 95 case that were observed by the auditor that they had

actually got the titles but they had not completed to execute their mortgages and by the

time now we are responding 80 of them have performed and the full housing commission

also recognized this problem and resolved to be more firm with non performing in house

fund allocaties. These 15 cases which are still outstanding we have actually disposed

them out of these properties.


That is better

Accounting officer:

No we have actually given them a notice by the end of the month or else we shall take

back the property end of July.


These are the ones in annex you attached

Accounting officer:

Annex 5 yes


Yeah if they are not paying


34/85

Accounting officer:

By the end of this month we shall take back the properties


But Rugamera died isnt it so?

Accounting officer:

His estate should have performed


But is Rugamera there?

Accounting officer:

Yeah he is there


The only thing he lost is RDCship.

I know him he was a tuff RDC in Bugisu

So these one you have told them to perform

Accounting officer:

Yeah we have told them to perform by the end of this month or else we shall take back

the properties.


Yeah if they dont perform I think we need the houses there are many people across who

need them.

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman Can I go to the next?


35/85


Yes it is ok

You go to the next accounting officer.

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman as observed by the Auditors general these condemn year properties; these

are condemn year properties whose plans were not ready and some surveys had not yet

been done and the deposits were made to secure the interest of their allocaties. Auditors

generals fearness was thought obtaining prier of being sold. 250 of these cases have since

received they were 343 and 250 of them they received their values and the evaluation Mr.

Chairman was delayed by lack of condmnier plans which plans have now being received

and they should be getting evaluation of these properties and we are saying that by

September we shall have communicated to everybody about the evaluation and we expect

you to be there.


But I think the argument is that are we not going to lose the interest as much as I have

deposited I have secured the interest.

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman, now we gave them offers I think let him explain

Mr. Lubowa:

What happens in this case the offers were given on the estimated values what was

estimated is what would be equivalent say 10% of the property value and these people are

supposed to continue paying even the monthly installments of what is estimated to be say

the rental value of that property that is what they pay monthly. For instance In Kampala

like say Buganda road where some one had got the property he makes a deposit payment

say 5 million and then he makes the monthly payment of 300,000/= per month that is

how it was done.


36/85


So the 300,000/= does it go to the purchase of the property or that is our rent?

Mr. Lubowa:

Towards the purchase of the property


How?

Mr. Lubowa:

Because we didnt want to lose value

You pay a deposit say 5 million then on monthly basis you continue paying 300,000/=

that is how it is done.

Accounting officer:

When you get the evaluation now done the true value of the property will now be

established and it will be dehiscent with what ever is it that you have paid and you get the

balance.

Hon. Alex Byarugaba:

Mr. Chairman what was additive government value?

Accounting officer:

The additive government value that is evaluation


Exactly after what was it?

Accounting officer:

That actually why was saying here that some of these properties had no cadmium plans

and there fore the evaluation could not be done the cadmium plans had been delayed.


37/85


Mr. Chairman you what was see he going to do? What was he establishing?


You mean you are just giving detail and whatever and you do nothing?

Accounting officer:

I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here now first of all if there are cadmium

properties lets say that the cadmium property or a unit is different from a flat and

average person thinks that a flat is a cadmium unit no it is not. So when the law of

cadmium was passed these properties existing were supposed to be converted into

cadmium units that conversion depends on two major factors;

1 The land must be resurveyed where the properties are. The survey must take in to

the account the cooperation how the owners want to put on that land you know it may be

in blocks and two floors one are three. Now three the cadmium plan must be drawn to

indicate each unit because the unit on the third floor may also be having a garage on the

ground floor and what have you, so all those parameters are just established. When they

are established then we value you start getting certain words like unit factor that means

that is the proportion of value of land your flat which you call a flat now which we call

the cadmium unit has. So the inspections which came in were not final. We move on the

ground to see the properties say for example Kiira road there are many units on the

ground but they dont have boundaries and they dont have reference numbers we had to

go, Naguru this former East African Community flats we went at least we saw we know

what they are but not until the details come dictating who owns what space, what factor

of value of land he attributes to his flat we cant complete the evaluations.

Hon. Kabondo Tidamanyire:

What do you mean factors coming in from where?

Accounting officer:


38/85

No the factors come in when you are surveying you are creating cooperation. The

cooperation is that body that is immediately established of the owners of the cadmium

units. You are establishing the value of proportion for land per one, you are allocating the

outside garages and what have you that one is done by an architect and that is what we

call drawing up a cadmium plan because you see those areas especially the government

properties having been what they are some of them were not surveyed, some were

surveyed and they had been encroached on so the architects could not draw the plans

until the land had to be resurveyed that is why consultants will engage to establish that. In

fact that process delayed the whole thing even in Nakasero here where we had run the

evaluation people again changed their position and created again new cooperation and

they increased the number and we have to re-do. So the inspection definitely what we did

good enough those which were clear we came out with value, those which were not we

gave information to housing to Lubowa say this one go back, this one there is an error,

this is this and this and this is what they have been doing and this where the PS has said

the plans have started coming in I think yesterday I got some, the Entebbe ones are

coming in and those ones in Naguru so we hope we should be able to complete the

evaluations with in the next two months.


Mr. Chairman Can he be more specific when he says the tenants changed the cooperation

it is not clear to me so that it affects the evaluation?

Accounting officer:

Lets take an example of Bugolobi if you have four blocks of flats and each one is 32 ok

they are sitting on may be one and half acres now when you value them together, then

each one of those depending on it size, bed rooms and all that will be having a factor unit

in the value of land. Now if you happen to change that one so that the 5 blocks are now

divided into two co-operations, you have two on one unit and then three on one unit you

have to look back and see how much land are the two take and who is there and how

much land are the three taking. So the figure will definitely change and the owners of the

blocks know either they want to have more land on their side and fought for the boundary


39/85

here instead of here so that is what happens things change you ask them they know why

they fight over that instead of two or one or three.


I thought it is simple mathematics

Accounting officer:

No it is not simple you know they normally fight over land because they are either getting

more land or they know bigger numbers are difficult to manage they want to manage

their and that. If it was uniform it would be what you are saying but normally what they

do is not pro-data there are few things which change on the ground.

Hon. Saleh Kamba:

Mr. Chairman. Is your department computer illiterate? Is it computerized?

Accounting officer:

To some extend we are computerized but depending on what you are asking


Assuming you have parameters all some body came up and say I have changed to this

condominium we have added on another block like lets use the example of Bugolobi.

Blocks say 1, 2, 3&4 and now they say they add on 5 to make that cooperation of that

group and you have all your parameters dont you think you would just put in all that

work?

Accounting officer:

It is easy that why I have said it is not taking long do you give the information and that is

what is coming in.


But this is 2009 you get it


40/85

Accounting officer:

Yeah but you are trying to give me a job of the architect the consultant who was

surveying, the consultant who was drawing the plans I was not there sir I am telling you I

am just receiving the information.


Who employees the consultant and the architect because at that time for us we are

concerned that is Lubowa; so he is the one making the government lose the money in the

process

Accounting officer:

It is not Lubowa


I am saying we are going to point our hands to you.


The government is also very good is the party in Lubowa

Hon. Peter Mutuluuza:

Mr. Chairman I think what the member is asking may be is why the consultants who were

given this job took all that long to come in with the results of their exercise and that is the

question which havent been investigated.


But accounting officer we are not agreeing with the government bowler one you have the

condominium you have valued the property our job is to divide the many and start paying

why should some people change are they not buying time?

Accounting officer:


41/85

Yes with your permission you know this is the problem of explanation and people

misunderstand the information. We have only one area where that one has happened that

is Nakasero he was asking me the factors but the truth of the matter is that the other one

did not have their surveys through and the condominium plans drawn through it is now

that they are coming. Those ones which came we did that is why you hear others bought

and others did not.


Can we find out from you when did this start the issue of properties to be given to the

civil servants this one specifically when did it start?

Accounting officer:

The condominiums?


Yeah


Lets use example of Bugolobi. How come Bugolobi which was of national housing is

almost all through and that one where the government has more interest is so slow to be

implemented.

Accounting officer:

If I may simply say plainly the consultant who was given that job delayed.


Are you trying to suggest that the consultants employed by government are so slow and

those employed in private sectors are more efficient?

Accounting officer:

You may take it that way but that is the truth


42/85

You can ask the accounting officer I have talking on this he can answer him self what I

want you to note is that I am not delaying any evaluations as soon as they come I do my

work.

..

Mr. Chairman like I said that the member wanted to know really why the member had

taken time to come out with their work and I was begging the indulgence of the

committee that I havent really gone in to the investigation of this completely I could say

one or two things but I would be wanting to give you a clear answer why it has taken

such a long time I think that is the concern you raised.


Yeah. And accounting officer you should notice values of properties have changed! Now

if these civil servants had got those houses the other time the value would be different

now the value we are going to attach to them is the current value.

Accounting officer:

We are already having problems like that actually.


No the evaluation should be now the only person you should take to court is the other one

Accounting officer:

Why? Mr. Chairman you see when the offer was being given to the buyer was that you

have been allocated to this property without value then they give you provisional amount

of money to pay as a commitment and then they tell you the value will be given to you

after the evaluation. Now if evaluations take such long time by the time evaluation is

done after 5 years down the road may the property would have been 20 million you do it

5 years after may be it is now 70 million now this is the value which is actually


43/85

communicated to you. Now the value if 70 because you are informed at a time that you

will be given the value the true value after evaluation.


Mr. Chairman it is not the question of evaluation only at that time but there is also

question of creating payables as far as government is concerned especially people who

are making this and whatever and I would not be surprised if you find in the subsequent

years the percentage of payables of ministry of lands and whatever will be going up

because people who are supposed to be doing work and be paid at that time take so many

year in the process will accumulate a lot of work.

Accounting officer:

It was actually change of the cost of the unit of the property on the payment.


The payment to the contractor

Accounting officer:

The contractor was ranched he was given contract plans for a number of year and then

you find that the problem has been in some instances that even the that had been given to

the contractor had not been fully appreciated the extent of the work like in the

achievement value I have been telling you some of this land had been encroached up on

and these facts were not even known and when you are giving some one work go and

value that property he goes to the ground and he actually discovers a lot of difficulties

accompanying that property then now he comes back up you find work even becoming

bigger because of the issues on the ground which were never appreciated at the time

when you are giving him the terms of reference.


Mr. Chairman. I still dont understand first of all in fact there are normal procedure of

attaining the government property is to look at the value. You can not tell me you went to


44/85

offer the government properties with out valuing the property. Why did you rush to sell

the government property without determining the value? In fact you are changing the

normal procedure of offering the government properties.

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman the rationale was to give comfort to the person sitting on the property

because the main thing of giving out these properties is you sell it to perceiving sitting

tenant that is the regulation to do with housing sells that the person who is occupying that

house that public servant has the first call. But now if you are not giving him if you

havent got the value and he is sitting on it and you are going through this issue, the

money you would actually go away or die some thing like the honorable here was saying

and then they would lose that property because some one else will come in it and then the

new person would be the one to take it the other person will be dispossessed simply

because you hadnt finished these processes so you actually hanker that thing give it to a

person who is there then there you start doing his work.


So now the issue is these people are going to be disadvantaged we gave them the comfort

to be sure they would be the ones to buy. The disadvantage the will pay the make price.

Accounting officer:

But it is still not the market rate but it has gone up actually it will be the same value as

that time given the values of this properties the considerations.

Yeah basically values appreciate over time dispite this financial crunch but the values of

today are different from the values of 1990, 2005 are different from in fact I get problems

from the allocates when we are giving them new values they are saying they are paying

much more than the others but the truth of the matter is the money that was paid in 1990

is more valuable and if you have put it in the account I think it should have accumulated.

That two the every moment we talk of the market we talk of the market today we are not

going to say ok let us put you to the base of 1990 or 1995 some thing like that so indeed


45/85

they will pay more money but we hope they will be understanding that the value today of

the money is the value of the money in 2000.


You have made a case because those who paid in 1990 the price is not the same as now

the money has also lost value. So we are giving you three months to do the evaluation

and finish and then also make sure that market price so that these people if fact this will

take care of the interest they would have paid if they had taken the mortgage at that time

so this one there is no big issue they should not cry.

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman where as the observations by the Auditor and collectors have returned with

the audit, the situation has since then changed and by June last month there were only 7

cases left in this category. You may also wish to know that at its last meeting the pull

houses committee sales resolved to repossess such houses that have not had any deposits

paid against their allocation. Letters of withdrawal have actually being issued.


But accounting officer you give me an allocation I dont pay that means I am dodging the

interest so how are you going to handle such a case

Accounting officer:

But it is difficult to dodge the interest


No but I have got the allocation. I dont deposit 3% because the moment I deposit that is

when I will start paying.

Accounting officer:

To fulfill their obligations or else their offers will be evoked. Then he also advised that

all those offers no money as yet should be sent a reminder if they are still in the palmers


46/85

period to perform within that same period which has been done. The palmers period is

over by the time it is over seven cases were still out side. So these seven cases we are

taking back the properties.


Allocate to other people. Who are these seven cases?

Accounting officer:

I dont think we have the names but that appendix I dont think it was updated.


I have seen appendix seven here. Ministry of defense has refused.

Accounting Officer:

Where?

Official from Ministry of Lands

The list of 15 I think which you talked about


But they were 150 not 15. You wrote 15

Accounting Officer:

Yeah. They reduced to 15 actually by the time we gave you this document the answer it

was 15 that is where I made this update it is now 7.


Is the update here?

Accounting officer:

Yeah the book says 15 the update now is 7


47/85


Is it here?

Accounting Officer:

Yeah page 8 of the update.


We have seen here but where is the annex?

Accounting officer:

Annex is this one annex 7 but it is showing 15 of them. So the 7 we didnt show the

seven.


So who are seven?

So defense has refused the house.

Kabondo since you are from the good region there is a house here for defense they will

give it to you.

Where are the copies of the withdrawn?

Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman we did not come with these copies but they are there but we can even bring

them in the afternoon.


You bring them in the afternoon


You better give them to us and we see


48/85

So what we are trying to recommend here is that the payment should be with effect from

the offer from the offer time to avoid loss of interest on the mortgage.

So who have not paid the government should reposes the properties immediately.

Committee clerk:

Roman five



Accounting officer:

Mr. Chairman this category originally it was 181 and some of these fellows hadnt even

paid the full 8%. The sales committee revoked actually this we shall also give you a copy

of this revocation of the offers.


Now who are there? Whose houses are those?

Accounting Officer:

Sorry


They are back to us now

Accounting Officer:

Yeah the houses will come back to the committee


So those one who are there are they paying rent or what?

Accounting officer:

That is our problem because they did not even perform on their offers


49/85

We are now just going to evict them and take back our property. For all this time they

have been living there. Those who had paid something will lose it because many of them

some performed others half performed. Those who half performed may those one

whatever they half performed may be regarded by government as rentals because we are

not going to refund any money.

Hon. Saleh Kamba:

That means those have not even paid the 8%?

Accounting officer:

They have not fully paid they paid a half way or some percentage.


But accounting Officer you are saying re-allocated here- re-allocated here. You re-

allocated it to civil servants or the public?

Accounting Officer:

No, all these things are public servants so even we do re-allocation to the public servant.

And we have got cases of recusant members of the public who are actually living in

public service properties and they have refused to move out. When we evict them they

take us to court and we are continuing with that process also.


Ok can we have those you re-allocated? You said there are those re-allocated but also

here we want them. When you re-allocate do you give the current market value or the

value at that time?

Accounting Officer:

That is now an issue. What do we do?



50/85

Is it true you valued these properties which were re-allocated?

Accounting Officer:

We havent given to him yet

Mr. Chairman if you look at these issues some of these guys had been within that

protective period which they were still having time with in which to perform. That time

has now expired so now it expires you havent performed you reposes. Now since I have

been advised the committee would probably say new values then it would be taken to him

to be valued. What is that property worth now?


But this was re-allocated at what price

Accounting Officer:

Where is that re-allocation Mr. Chairman?

Official from Ministry of Lands:

No, they havent. he said that we shall have to lease properties re-allocated.


No but here I have something from you. Have you seen this table? I have a table whose

handwriting is this? Lubowa?

Accounting Officer:

That is 8


Yes

You have seen you have it there

Accounting Officer:


51/85

Yes


Those one which are shown as re-allocated the beneficiaries either passed on or the offers

elapsed and then they were re-allocated by the committee.


Yeah. At what value?


No they were re-valued by the Chief Government value committee.


Can we have evidence of those re-allocated with the values and the re-allocates?

So can we have cases of where you have re-allocated and values you gave?


It is ok you can have it


So here now what we are saying those which were re-allocated we want to see the values

and who bought them.

Those which were non-performing and then we say cancel all. Cancel those which are

non-performing. We need proof of that immediately.

We want the government Baluwa to do the evaluation.

Government Baluwa in three months if you are given this cant you finish it in one week?

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman let me answer for him because he is every loaded man. Valuation in

ministry is an area which really heavily loaded in that if you just look at this and you


52/85

think it is just 4, 5 houses, there are a lot of property and work which is actually on his

desk. So he needs to sit down and evaluate.


Why are you interested in this?

Accounting Officer:

I am telling you my problem because now what do you want me to tell you. I can tell you

in one week I would have done it when I cant I need to tell you why I can not do it in

that short time.

Hon. Saleh Kamba:

Mr. Chairman is the PS why cant you allow him to take his responsibility?

Accounting Officer:

No, the responsibility of the ministry is mind

Hon. Saleh Kamba:

Are you the one inspecting his duties?

Accounting officer:

I know what kind of responsibilities he has


You have made that man redundant accounting officer

Accounting Officer:

Really this is my responsibility the general management of the ministry and I know now

what is in the pocket of the evaluation I can tell you that he can not finish it in three days.

Hon. Peter Mutuluuza:


53/85


54/85

Accounting Officer:

That is when we shall be able to tell you when we shall complete this work because even

this evaluation he hasnt received this as yet. Because the sale committee sat I think on

Wednesday this week and it had already said it was going to do this now it has done it

then we need to take these properties and pass them over to evaluation instructing them to

re-value.

Hon.Saleh Kamba:

Mr. Chairman assuming we made a comment that may be the accounting officer is hiding

something for it not to be valued.

Accounting Officer:

No, no otherwise I wouldnt even be issuing the eviction orders and what have you.


Ok we are giving you; you must instruct him with in two days evict, instruct for re-

evaluation and we shall give him one month to make sure that these properties are given

away to new civil servants. Dont give them to your selves.

Accounting officer:

We have finished this issue Mr. Chairman I dont want him to open it up again. Please.


Ok. We are giving you one month

Ok. Auditors General also verify that what they are saying was done that means the

money which was outstanding it remains there are you getting me? Here they said 150

they are saying there are only 15 that means the others had done it so remember to cross

check that it is there that applies to also 131 properties.

Committee Clerk:

Six


55/85

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman six is the VAT payment to URA and we are saying that remittances to

Uganda Revenue were stopped and the URA request the Attorney General that the matter

be resolved through an out of court settlement and Attorney General has not yet advised

us on what settlement they have arrived at with URA on this issue.


I think this was the price of the houses was going up. Isnt that what it means?


Why is it that the ministry has to wait for the ministry of justice?

Accounting Officer:

I didnt hear what you were saying. I am sorry I didnt hear.

Hon. Rebecca Atengo:

We were talking about the 170 million why is it constant and yet the amounts being

received are varying given the evaluations being done; 170 million VAT payments is

constant over the years.

Accounting Officer (PS):

The accounting officer had already explained that these were the arrears according to

what he captured actually. There are arrears whose prime schedule had been negotiated

between agents HFCU and URA and it was so secure that an appeal had been made to the

commercial court and HFCU had been asked to stop remittance to URA until the matter

is resolved. The negotiation seems to be between HFCU and URA to pay that constant

amount of money over time.

Hon. Saleh Kamba:

That is the arrears. You mean the subsequent one is up to date?


56/85

Accounting Officer:

The problem is I think even these arrears of 170 are consistent we had not complete

because now the HFCU went again to court and appealed because it stopped and the

URA and I think is the one dragged to court for non payment. And that is what we are

reporting on that URA and Ministry of Justice they are looking at an out of court

settlement and dont know the details on that as yet.


I think accounting officer the argument is here that every month the stock of houses is

increasing as it increases the VAT should increase. Why were you maintaining it at 170?

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman I think this 170 regards the arrears not with new payments it is arrears and

these arrears are likely to cease here in the narration of the audit it was in negotiation then

you pay so much for what ever period it was. Then along the line they contest that again

and go to court that why at all such I be paying any VAT any way.

Hon.Alex Byarugaba:

Mr. Chairman I think there are two issues the accounting officer is talking about the

arrears but the query is about the sale of pull houses there no is correlation of arrears

which means it is other at the time of sale. What is being constant is a figure.

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman I am actually looking at the narration of the audit


Then this one which value is this?

Accounting Officer:

You see that is the first paragraph you are reading. If you read the 2 nd paragraph of the

narration audit the explanation of the accounting officer which he gave at that time which


57/85

the auditor picked and put here. This issue came to me when it was actually at this stage

of stoppage and the clearance with in URA and justice and that is where it is still. The

background I am also looking at is the narration of the audit.


Accounting officer the issue is that you are paying 170 million per month.

The stock of the houses is increasing that means the VAT component should be going up

to be able to answer this we want you to tell us how did you come to 170?

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman that is what I am saying if you look at part B of the narration of the auditor

he is saying these were arrears whose repayment scheduled had been negotiated between

HFCU and URA they are the ones who negotiated this figure of 170.

That is where negotiations were based on.


You get the negotiation because the negotiation must be on a basis. Let us get what was

the negotiation? What was the principle amount? Ok. What was decided as the monthly

deductions or payments? Then what about the current?

Accounting Officer:

The current which period


No, let us look 2006/2007

Accounting Officer:

Which one the current before the stoppage?


Yes


58/85

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman if I understand you correctly may be now what you need me to tell you

which information I dont have is the basis of this negotiation because I dont have that

but I can ask the Housing Finance to give me the details of that negotiation. What were

they negotiating before to arrive at this 170 because their negotiation started from the

figure I dont which then they agreed with URA that they will now pay 170 for a given

period of time which I also dont know and then I can give you that information from

Housing Finance because the negotiation was between Housing Finance and URA.


This value would be constant if the stock of the houses sold is constant so what happens

is if your house you had bought it at 20 million they will add on VAT. Are you getting

me?

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman you see I understand what you are saying supposing you had a bank loan

of say 10 million and I cant pay it now we go to tax man we start negotiating and say I

cant pay this money but may be we negotiate and say I will pay you 8 million we break

it up I will pay you monthly payments of so much then I start paying you the same figure

in mind which are arrears.


That one we dont have any problem

Auditors General are you ready?

Auditors General:

May be the PS will have to add us more information on more interest paid on that money

plus your minutes. Do you have any money?

Accounting Officer:


59/85

Yes of course we have an interest then the principal would have been the one to get into

the work I am not the principal in the arrangement between the government and the

housing finance it is ministry of finance. And it will be with ministry of finance not with

me because now the government interest in this case has been taken care of by ministry

of finance. It is the principal between the agreements drawn between the housing finance

and government of Uganda. Now for me my interest is because I generate the money and

also as you noted we need to do the scheme for the public servants to continue assisting

the public servants so I am interested in that as a secondary partner but originally the

people with that responsibility between the two government it is finance that will

represent the government.


I am going to say you should be the one who is having the more interest. You have the

houses for your civil servants. Who pays this VAT?

Accounting Officer:

By the housing finance


No

Accounting Officer:

Ultimately yes the people who are putting the money


Housing finance is the collector on behalf of government

Accounting Officer:

That is why it was actually stopped


You are the one making the prices for the houses of the staff too high


60/85

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman with all due respect I am not the principal of this arrangement I dont see

how I can become an act when I have no role in the agreement my interest is secondary.


Mr. Chairman who determines the figure?

Accounting Officer:

Which figure?


Of VAT

Accounting Officer:

That is government


No, the government Baluwa gives 20 million that is the basis of VAT and accounting

officer it is you who is making the prices of the houses so high first of all you want to

reduce the interest. Now you are charging them interest on VAT we are saying you

should be very interested to make sure that the rate which is applicable or the amounts is

not so high assuming now you have agreement that you should charge them to be passed

to the civil servants because this money is being paid by the civil servants.

Accounting Officer:

Yes Mr. Chairman that is actually why we actually interesting our selves to see how this

thing is getting results but when it comes to issues of close follow up I believe in the

arrangements that were entered into by government with this bank the principal on the

government side should take the responsible and then for me as an interested partner

somebody who is to whom it may concern I would be asking this principal to make sure


61/85

that this issue we want it to be like this or to be like that. That is why we are even asking

the interest payable on the loan scheme should be reduced.

Hon. Mathias Nsubuga:

Have you got any response from ministry of justice over this money?

Accounting Officer:

Actually they have not given us any firm response on this


I mean have you made any follow ups? Have you written to them?

Accounting Officer:

Yes that is correct of recent I have not but it was some time back I havent done it again

but I just talked to the auditor general that I didnt have position.


You are a responsible civil servant you know how things are done me I think you should

have showed a letter that you have been following up this issue but you have failed.

Accounting Officer:

The only thing missing Mr. Chairman is the letter but we have been really following up

this issue.


Accounting Officer we are still interested in this 170. How did it come up?

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman I was asking for your indulgence and saying that I could provide these

responses.


62/85


To who

Accounting Officer:

Me communicating now with the bank asking them the details other wise I dont have the

answer.


You do that we want you to get for us how they came to 170 and that would be the one

that will determine the next questions. So without that we can not do much we need to

know how you came to 170. You said how many days were you putting your self?

Accounting Officer:

We havent discussed


No you have been saying one day, two days

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman it is up to you I am not in control of the response.


Ok we shall give you seven days by next week on Friday we should be able to have this.

Members we have finished the civil servants houses. Is there any body that has a burning

issue on houses? You can ask your civil servants.

So members we go to the issue of land acquisition but it looks so big.

Yes accounting officer.

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman this is this Mutungo thing really they have not resolved this issue as yet.


63/85


This is the Mutungo thing?

Accounting Officer:

Yes


So what is the status now?

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman the status hasnt changed


Like last year

Accounting Officer:

Yes this man is still struggling with Mengo


So the issue is now with Mengo

Accounting Officer:

And we are still havent moved it is really the same position as it appeared on this point.


You put it on record

If there is a general confusion

Accounting Officer:

Yeah that the position is really I am just saying that it is still in court because they opened

the case against this landlord of this place.


64/85


Nsubuga, Nsubuga you follow up this thing with Mengo

Since it is court we shall wait

Committee clerk:

D

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman this issue of D really had to do with some money that had been paid for

titles that seemly were encumbered and we now have a copy of these titles showing that

they are not encumbered may we may need to but I did no make a copy.


We can run copies

Accounting Officer:

Because I wanted to remain with a set of copies


So this one you are saying they were not encumbered

Accounting Officer:

You can look at it

I think this is the one in query


Auditor general that they are not encumbered you verify and you let us know

Hon. Byarugaba do you have interest in this case?



65/85

Yes Mr. Chairman I have interest. When I looked at the ranches that have been

compensated, Masaka ranches they have not yet in fact recently on the floor of the house

they came and said they have never got any thing. Now can he tell us on Isingiro and

Ankole ranches?

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman this one here he was really looking at this payment that was done out of

this ranching schemes but as general statement on these ranches that were restructured.

There has been a problem that we have not been able to pay the claimers for a long time

not only Masaka but also other ranching areas and recently the last time we came here I

think the committee advised us because even the ministry has never captured these

records in our final account which we now give we are interfacing the ministry of finance

to see how to get funds to pay these claimers in all the ranching schemes not only Isingiro

there is also Masaka, there is Bululi and all other schemes. Government hasnt paid these

schemes as it should have paid them basically that is what I am saying.


They were aware that government you know why this was asking because they are the

ones who tool the land like us you took our land, Masaka I am sure you are the ones you

know the names which are there the Karugabas, the Kabondos and what ever.

Accounting Officer:

We have since then paid some members not all of them but the small money which come

in we pay.


And another issue is that you took their titles since then up to know you have not returned

their titles.

Accounting Officer:


66/85

There was a problem of clarity because it was not even clear about the surrender of titles

and some time last year I actually wrote a general letters to all the claimers under this

scheme to give me proof that they actually gave in their documents to assist me to be able

to assist me to make a proper record and then start look at that kind of stuff.


So you are in the process of making their pension?

Accounting Officer:

Yes they are coming in now and we are looking at those who dont have and they have

actually submitted.


Let us do in this way we want you to give us all the information on all the ranches and

how far you have gone to compensate the owners.


Mr. Chairman may be they do it this way how much has been valued? How much has

been paid? And what is out standing?


So now we are saying we want all the ranches taken over

Accounting Officer:

What was now out standing is in the region of 18 billion

I think the original figure may have been actually what has been paid is very small think

what has been paid is in the region of 2 billion.


Have you paid Musiguzi?


67/85

Accounting Officer:

Musiguzi was never part of this


These ranches what does the government use them for when they are bought?

Accounting Officer:

Actually the scheme has been actually to rationalize there were squatters in these areas

they had no land and some individuals had very large ranches so government thought in

its wisdom that it could cut pieces from given ranchers and then keep passing them over

to these fellows who are squatters leave away the problem of squatting.


Mr. Chairman I also know most of them have been together and the squatters have been

paid to buy them selves where they have been like say in Busara some people have been

honored where was that money before?

Accounting Officer:

I am not aware of that


May be that was for the board ones


Of record why dont we try to do that in Lango and we see how it moves

Accounting Officers:

You dont have squatters you have customary land all over


Squatters are all there we take them there


68/85


What about in Bugisu when are you doing the Squatters in Bugisu?

Any way I think we can give you one week to give us this so that we can answer the

query of ranches.


May be Mr. Chairman I dont whether that one can help I have been reading papers about

this issue of land in Temangalo we settled it and the ministry was supposed to have

issued NSSF their title it seems this land is still encumbered. Who has those land titles as

of today?


Amama Mbabazi


No

Official Ministry of lands:

The caveats were removed and the transfers done to NSSF


So the whole land is now in NSSF

Official ministry of lands:

Yes


Who had put the caveat?

Who had caveated?

Official ministry of lands:


69/85

NSSF was the one who had caveated


How do you remove the caveat it is the owner now?

Accounting officer:

It was an interested party

Accounting officer:

That I think clears the error thank you very much


That including the swamp?

Accounting officer:

Even if it was there the swamp is part of it


It is a wrong forum


It is a wrong forum but also accounting officer also at this juncture we would also want

you to go and find out we are told that there are some government officials who want to

take land from Byogerere Kirinya about 700 acres. I am told they are portioning

themselves some ministers, some officers 10 acres like they did it at Butabika. I am sure

Kabondo you may have been approached by now because you come from a good region.


Mr. Chairman if we may conclude this one because it is of our interest really



70/85

Which one?


That the title has now been given to NSSF how come zay is still on the land?

Accounting officer:

He can be there as a tenant


No, no accounting officer that is not the issue of yours

Accounting Officer:

What we could say is that the titles that had been of concern in that issue which NSSF

had interest in they caveated them protected them as they were going on with the dispute

between the sellers and themselves. So when these disputes were dealt away with they

actually came and removed the caveat and the page stamp and the titles were transferred.

So that land which Mr. Zay is sitting on may be it is now part of this property owner.


No, no if Zay is sitting on the NSSF it is the due of NSSF to evict him we dont know we

are sitting here we may be sitting on some bodys land. Alex can leave NSSF matters to

NSSF.


I wanted them to be modest


No, no for you; you have transferred the titles you have handed them to NSSF they could

submit them to Zay.

Accounting officer we go on


71/85

Committee Clerk:

12.3 cash payments



Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman the recommendation guidance was taken and I am really saying since then

we are not doing this kind of the thing. But this is now I think Mr. Chairman there are

two issues here may be my answer was not adequate enough. I should have may be

appointed out that this was not impress money the ministry thus spend in cash when it

goes in to arranging work shops and seminars especially up country where we need to

pay participants and there is no other way we can pay them other than cash.


But accounting officer we must tell you that if as you have added we need you to add

more information here. You withdrew money 1.1 billion cash now this cash was spent on

activities what we want you to be able to jump first to get more than what you authorized

you must get the PSSTs authority. No, no if your impress is 1 million then you want to

exceed 1 million, I think that is the function which has been delegated to the accountant

general or the PSST I dont know.

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman my understanding of impress is that but I will still ask my PA to give more

light on that but at every beginning of financial year we do request for the authorization

of the impress to run the ministry during the financial year and as far as I am concerned

that is now the impress. But during the financial year as you transact the business you get

business which you need to transact in cash and when you do that transaction to my own

way of understand that is not part of the impress, Mr. Chairman with you permission can

I ask my PA to add on to that.


72/85


Yes let him add on

The PA Ministry of Lands:

Thank you Mr. Chairman, can I go ahead?


Yes please you can go ahead


I think the PS has been going through this what we are calling interest here is not actually

interest this has been our provision during our discussion with the auditors. These are

cash payments for the activities not interest.


They are cash what? Payments

The PA Ministry of lands:

Yes


What we want you to do is to tell us what was this. Did you get the details of that?


He should be having them


Because if it is a workshop which has been authorized that means you wrote a cheque in

the names of some Hotel in Mbale.

Accounting Officer:


73/85

No, no is not the case this cash should be paying for example you if come to attend that

workshop as a fuel refund or some kind of allowance some thing like that.


So that was the payment so you tell us so that we clear this. That would be the one to help

you to so what was this one training, workshop? So tell them we clear this but then we

are saying that cash payments must be minimized.

Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman that is appreciated and actually recently ST also guided on that and

recently as of that guidance we actually need to ask his express authority because

drawing this cash withdrawing which we need to make.


I am told that he has given you 20 now you will planned it in a way that you will make

20,20, 20 or 19.9

Accounting Officer:

No, no

Because we show why we want that money so when we are going to have a workshop we

show say 50 or 70 million cash then we explain it is for this and that.


No, no that is for clearance

Accounting Officer:

To clear


That was ok but there is what he has allowed you to draw with out going to him


74/85

Accounting Officer:

But my Ministry doesnt have that kind of money to be withdrawing it on a routine

manner.


There s an audit going on I hope it will come up with all those

Now ok we have got these titles we are happy but there are two caveats there is just in

Kasaijja and Uganda land commission.

Accounting Officer:

You didnt give our copy back we gave it to you


No, where is your copy

Accounting Officer:

You havent given it to me


They say you have removed the encumbrance. You have not answered the question there

are two people who have encumbered it there is Justine Kasaijja and Uganda land

commission that is ok.

There are two people see here if it is not this

pac meeting ministry of land

Documents