paul goodman william buckley firing line transcript

Sid Bakal

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RKO General Productions1440 Broadway

·New York Ci ty

"ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS NECESSARY?"

A debate with

Paul Goodman, noted author and educator

and

William F. Buckley, Jr., Editor, National Review

on

FIRING LINE WITH WILLIAM BUCKLEY

(Script prepared by Radio TV Reports)

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Sta~YBB&eW. F" Buckley

ANNOUNCER: "Firing Line, with William F. Buckley, Jr.

Tonight's guest,. noted author, Paul Goodman. Our topio, 'Are

Public Schools Necessary?'

"Mr. Buckley."

BUCKLEY: "Mr. Paul Goodman is, roughly speaking, everything

as tar as I know, a basketball player~ Everything else he excelle

in. Mostly, he is known for his original essays on subjects

usually written about by sociologists.

"There is a sense in Which, among other things, Mr. Goodman

1s a sociologist, however disqualified by his ability to write

English, but he is not merely a sociological chronicler, but an

original thinker, whose insights, for instance, in his book,

'Growing Up Absurd,' tend to rock readers who approach them from

whatever direction, because they are startling and many of them

instantly plausible.

"I suppose I should list Mr. Goodman's eccentricities. He

1s a pacifist, a bi-sexualist, a poverty cultist, an anarchist,

and a few other distracting things. Where he stands, ideologically,

in conventional terms, it is hard to say.

"Probably, no one would wish either to olaim him altogether,

or to disclaim him altogether. One oommentator has written that

more, quotes, conservative insights have germinated in Paul

Goodman's mind than in the minds of the entire body of the Amer-

ican Conservative comm\mity.

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. Un,iversity.------------_.__.. _._--_...._.

- 2 -

"Mr. Goodman is a stern and interesting critic of American

educational axioms, and we are hore to discuss whether public

schools are necessary.

"If any of you believes that this is a shocking subject,

even to bring up, steol yourself for something worse. Mr.

Goodman doesn't believe that literacy is even necessary.

"I'd like to ask why, Mr. Goodman?"

GOODMAN: "I'd like to comment on one of the points of your

introduction, though it might -- and it might lead into the other

subject -- the word poverty cultist is sort of funny. I'm not

a poverty cultist. I do think it's a sign of a good society that

("'" it is possible to live in decent poverty, especially if you so

choose, that is, if you have morc important things to do than to

k "ma e money •••

BUCKLEY: "Well, that's a little bit different from What

you wrote, bocause you said, quote, unquote, a decent poverty is

really and ideal for serious people ••• "

GOODMAN: "Well, that was just a quotation from the Rabbis,

who say that povorty makes a suint, if you can take .it, and

rrha1~i3 (?) says the same thing. He distinguishes, you remember,

bet\oleen misere and poverte ••• "

BUCKLEY: "Oh, a lot of people ••• yeah. 1l

GOODHAN: "The only trouble is, we have lllisorl), and we don't

have povol'te."

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

- 3 -

BUCKLEY: "Well, a lot of people take vows to poverty,

but it's not wrong to call them poverty cultists, is it?"

GOODMAN: "Ye s ••• "

BUCKLEY: "In any case, I didn't mean to offend you."

GOODHAN: "Yes. No, I WaS just kind of struck by it.

"Now, if we menn by literacy, knowing the art of reading

and writing, where the objects of the art are imagination and

truth, then, of course, to be literate is, you know, importantly

to be fulfulling yourself as a human being, but if we mean by

literacy, being processed so that you can understand the code in

order to buy products, or obey orders, or the rest, then, it's

a question whether most people wouldn't be freer if they weren't

q ui te so caught in thi s code."

ANNOtm'CER: "We ha ve at least two definl tions of literacy.

I'm surf:) thfH'O may be oven some more before the evoning is over.

lI\\fe'11 be back to Firing Line in just a moment."

* * * *

BUCKL'::.""'Y: "Well, Mro Goodman, even if it's correct that

~wmo people don't use literacy in order to stimulate the moral

imagination, or to pursue truth. 00"

GOODHAN: "Tho Ma jori ty, tho maj ori ty. "

BUCKIJ'EY: " ••. even if that is so, is it necessarily so, that

the development of that particular :Jkill isn't in, and of itself,


." 4 -

worthwhile, on the assumption that it might be used tor desirable

ends?"

GOODMAN: "Yes. Surely so. I agreo with that.

"'rhe 1 saue rose in a book in. my compulsionist eduoation,

which '.( gno33 you're referring to here. In terms of the todu

which ts mndo about teqching reading and writing in the schools,

IDld also ~he alarm at the fact that there is so much failure in

reading and writing.

"No"" my own feeling, and I think that this would be the

optnion of psychologists, is that under urban or suburban con

ditions, normal kidS, those who aren't emotionally blocked, or

cuI tural1y depo'l'erished, or so forth, would learn to read and

write a1'1y'Way, bec1.lus.q they~re so exposed to the code, by age nine

or ten, if no effor~ Whatever ",ere made to teach them to read

Imd writo, just as they learned to spea.k, with no effort being

made to tt'laeh th(~m to speak, except to talk to them, namely, to

~xpoge thorn to the code.

"On 1.~h() othor' hand, if you try to teach them to read, you

would hav~ the same effect as if you try to teach them to speak.

nomely, about thi:-ty per cent would stammer and stutterQ There's

no question of that."

BUCKl.EY: "You mean to say, that systematic efforts to

ttJach peoplo ~10W to read 81"6, in and of themselves I not worthwhile ~

b€'C:~l1S0 we .•. '


r - 5-

GOODHAN: "If we mean by -- if we mean by teaching to read

now~ not the art ot readlng~ but to pick up this code» I have a

feeling that plain exposure for the average, normal kid would

liccomplish better. II

BUCKLEY: "But i~n it it true that e •• "

GOODMAN: "But this would have to be proved by a considerable

experimentation and so forth, but lim afraid that the evidence is

in my direction, and that most of the todo which we have in the

public schools on this issue, is just a todo ~r entrenched pro~

fe8510na1s, or ••• "

BUCKLEY: "Well, do you simply disavow the data ot people

~ who have made and Buperintended massive national efforts to

eliminate illiteracy, and do you Bay that it's all chicanery • ..,"

GOODMAN: "No ••• II

BUCKLEY: " ... that, in point of fact, it hasn't worked, oru."

GOODMAN: "No, no ••• "

BUCKLE):': " ... or to the extent that it does work, it would

he ve worked wi thout such a sys tem,a. tic effort 1"

GOODl1AN: "Certainly. I don't think 1 t' s chicanery. What

it 1.8 is that having built in a structure in which they observe,

they create by their method, the very disaster which they're

fighting ••• "

BUCKLEY': "Okay 0 0 • II

GOODMAN: "This is a commonplace thing 0 Soc1.ety _CD I'm sure


""' 6-

you ~ould think of a hundred other places where that's true tooo"

BUCKLEY: "I want to hear you say it."

GOODMAN ~ "Yes. "

BUCKLEY: "Well, then, letns lead on from this axiom of yours,

that lt is not worthwhile to ••• "

GOODl1AN: "No, that's not an axiom -- that'e a hypothesis.oo"

BUCKLEY: " •• oto attempt -- I vouch it is a hypothesis. ISm

usually more reverential towards what you write if it is axiomatic D

it -"" then let's pursue then your hypothesis and ask you this,

a state ought not thorefore to mobilize a public school system

~/hoso intention it is to force pe()ple to learn how to read, even

thoso Who approach the job reluctantly?"

GOODMAN: "Well, that takes us into a broader issue. See,

it's chief function -- I'm a Jeffersonian, and Jefferson felt,

with Aristotlo by the way, that tllo chief function of a political

society Is to educate ita young. Thatas what it's about, and we

ought to be spending here much more money on it than we do.~o"

BUCK. LEY : "Make them 11tel"ary. "

GOODMAN: "That's right, and, as you remember, Jefferson felt

that a very important part of that was that they should learn

history, because by studying history they could learn how to be

vigilant for freedom. That's what he thought when cut out of

hisLory, and that would, of course, require literacy, but that

would, or course, also require reading as an art, that is w where


.0

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you're readlng~not to know a code, but for truth, and imagination,

and so forth. II

BUGKLEY~ "But in order to read that waY'~ you've got to learn

how to read for instrumental purposes ••• "

GOODMAN: "lJ.lflat's where I trdnk you're wrong, if you think

that. Thatls exactly whatVs wrong with our teaching of readingo o •1i

BUl:KLEY: "Hypothetically, or axiomatically. 0 • "

GOODMAN: "That's what's wrong with our teaching at presento

We take ~eadlng, instead of being an art, as if weVre learning

the tool subject.. If we take a person who really lmll.1JWS how to

teach reading, Sylvia Ashton-Warner .. you know, in New Zealand,

her attitude is that reading is one way of helping a ohild to

express and expres s to the other ,one who's in the other room,

fer instance, by writing it down, what the child really wants to

say,:'!() whnt she tries to do Iseo~1l

BUCKLEY~ "Wi th reference to a vocabularly, or wi thout reference

tu a vocabulary? Is it all anomatopoeia?"

GOODHAN: "No~ with reference to the child t s actual speech

at age fi vee She teaches Maori kids ••• "BUCKLEYr " Bu,t then he just grunts •• o "GOODMAN: "No, no no -- no, no, no~ no, no ~- they can

speak. 1 tIs a question now of their reading and wri tinge They

ceme in at ag~ five or six, and she tries to rind out What i~ it

that's on the child 2 s mind today.

"Now ~ thct words that are on ~ little Maori vs mind -~ in the

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,

-8-

little Maori's mind that day, she finds, are always words of fear,

that is, papa's drunk again, the cop beat him up, or seX, or hunger,

and, therE1fore, the primary vocabulary of the child, chosen by the

child a~ it comes in full of a need to say something which is in

1119 hoart, for the first two years, will be a most ·strange one.

"You know, it will consist of all kinds of sexual words, and

words like skeleton, and, you know, wild lion and Wildcat, and worda

of hungst·. You know, frui ts and nuts, and if you compare her

elementa!'y vocabulary with Dick and Jane, you realize that in the

one case, the art of reading and writing is the art which can lead

to poetry and science, and in the other case, the art of reading

and writing is the art which leads to suburban conformism••• "

BU~KLEY "Yes, but doesn't this always assume that Dick and

Jano tnko over, in the one Caso, where they don't in the other •. "

GOClDHAN: "They do •• "

BUCKLEY: .11 •• whereas, if Dick and Jane is simply viewed as

(I menn:3 by whidl one begina the alphabetization of the process •• "

(h)O~m~N: "But that's the error, you see, this separation

n( tho f!1tHH1S from tho encl, because this is not, in fact, how we

learn--now, I have n little three year old at present, and to her,

word~ like brontosaurls, or, you know, tyranosaurus Rex, are just

the sumo as 0~t. It simply isn't the case that children learn

monosyllA.htc words quicker than they lea1'n polysyllabic words.

"She goes to the Museum of Natural History and sees this

'('. -ching, and that one is called tyranosaurus Rex and she knows ttJat

word. Tyranosaurus Rex is farontoua, she says, but she's extinct,


ahe says, See."

-9-

BUCKLEY: "Well, why would a public school system•• "

GOODMAN: ,"And why not?"

BUCKLEY: "Why would a public school system exclude what you

just had to say. After all, what you're really talking about is

just dtfferent pedagogical methods ••• "

GOODHAN: "They have the wrong theory, and that's the trouble.

You see, the theory is not an accident, that they hBve a wrong theory.

They have a theory of Elocial engineers. They don't have the theory

of human teachors, or artists. The theory of a social engineer

always says that you can analyze everything down into its least

element, and you first learn one, two, three, four, and then you

add them up to two, four six, eight, but this isn't at all how a

person leoJ'tls, becnuse a person leorns by an intrinsic need, or

rAnching out, and whnt you reach out to, is What's interesting, and

if the text i ~m' t interosting,then, why bother?

"For 1n~~tl1nce, if I teach elementary Latin, I -- and I have

dono thi ~, 1 ho vo t unfor'tuna te ly, in my career, had to teach elem-

"Jnt[l!'y Lotin, I, at nneo, wrote them a little manual whir,h WAS

porllogral'h\.c, bf-<eflll~,(j overy kid of eloven wants to read that •.• "

BU';:KLEY: "WoD, aren't you simply ::lUggosting a revision of

teaching pr-ocedurl1lJ, but \tlhy ••. "

GOODr1All~ "Thqt.'s right."

bUGI:LFY: " ••• do you go on to make the inference that the

ontjre publlr scllool sJstem ought to be abolished?"

GOODMAN tI

"Because, if we had s system which is run centrally,

whoro we havtJ a million childron, let's ssy,in New York City, and

© Board of Trustees of the leland Stanford Jr. University.

-iO-

~ fifty thousand teachers and a million children, it will always be

run 8S social engineering."

BUCKLEY: ''Well, there's plenty of pornography in New York City."

GOODMAN: "Not in the school system, unfortunately. I wish

there were more ••••

( LA UO H'J'ff{ )

BUCKL::;Y: "Well, the-- is the problem, therefore, a quantitative

anA, i.e., you feel you are defeated because the problem is one

million students, but you would not feel defeated if it was just your

thr(1e old child?"

GOODMAN: "I would feel better -- I wouldn't feol altogether

happy, but I would certainly feel better if the system were radically

ue-centralized to little store front schools, let's say, where you had

thir·ty children and threo teachers. Now, it wouldn't cost any more,

by tho WB~, because two of the teachers could be college students,

you know, we give a couple of thousand dollars B year, and one licdnsod

teacher, whero there's more human contact.

"I think we havo to have the elementary school system in some

forn or ol,hor, becauso you have to relieve the home, that is, you

hov(! tn 119Ve baby sitters, end you also have to rescue the kids from

the 11' pill' (-d1ts, thorefore, in some form or othor, you're going to have

to 113VO (ilementary education.

"My objection to it, is the curriculm, because every child is

full of Clll'iosity, is rflflching out, and wants to know something, and

all II ton~her hRa to do is to look at the child's eyes and try to

t:"" guess what he's aftel', and he will learn enough ••• "

ANNOUNCER: "Any parent can have difficulty trying to find

what his child is after by looking at his eyes, but we'll try to find

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr..University.

Ie

-11-

more about this in just a mornent. tl

* * *BUCKLEY: "So, you do acknowledge the desirability of taking

the s tudonts, dUl'ing some of the daylight hours and attempting to

do somothlng to tllem. Is this, in a sense, a capitulation to the

idtlfl of public schooling, or, are you saying only up until such

on ugo, definitely not through secondary schooling, definitely not

if thoy resist beyond a certain point? How do you feel about that?"

GOODMAtI: "Well, I don I t like the phra sa, 'do something to them, 1

I would want. to do something with thern ••• 1t

BUCKLEY: "~Jell, it depend::! on the children •• "

GOODl1AH ~ II •••• tha tIs -- that's the simply human thing, wi th

thorn.

"On the olemont..ary level, I believe in the 'Summerhill' system,

O~~ you mll~Jt ronli ",1:1, which is a system where the kids have a say in

whHt kind u1' institution t.hey belong to. 'rhoy can fir6 the heed

fll"'l~tel', J'()~' inntanco, !l vory good thinr,. Often, a vory fine practice.

"1 Wfl,:'l fl Lrustoo of a 'SumrrJerhill' ~1Chool whel'e, in fact, that

hnppunnu,. ,It

BTTCKL:~Y: "Were you the hoadrnar-lter?lI

GOOPMA1:: "No, no, no, no, no, I wes just a trustee. No, I

Wll:~n 't thn hoadmes ter.

liTho notion that you havo to Motivate smAll children to l09rn,

iu ~imply ridiculous. Thoy want to lear'n. If you have to if you

(' get in Lhe trap where you have to tHot! vate them, then, something is·


-12-

wrong. You'll put them in an institutional setup, where they

can't be themselves, and come out from themselves.

"Now, if we get to the later age, now, we're in a much More

serious situation, because in this country there always has been

some kind of compulsory elementary education, pretty much, for the

total population, but if we take the high Bchool age now, most

people now don't seem to realize that in nineteen hundred, only

six percent graduated high school, and this last year, I think the

figure was seventy-five percent, and yet, the schools have maintained

pretty much the same institutional pattern, and yet it must mean

something entirely different, because those six percent were, for

the most part, rather motivated, they wanted to learn something,

f"'" that t s why thoy went to school-- high school; there were many other

things to do, you could go out and get a job, and you could go into

most professionH without all these diplomas.

"My brother, for instance, is an arcjitect. He never went to

high school. You know, he's professor of architecture, and with

[lIOflt profession~ at that time, except for doctor, it wasn't necessary

to have any of these diplomas.

"We have now set up a licenBing system which is perfectly

ridiculous, and a hiring system whereby for the-- for every damn

job in the world, you have to have a high school diploma or college

diploma. It's entirely irrelevant to anything which is dona on the

job, and tho ~esult ls that young people for sixteen, long, years,

are kept doing lessons.


· .

-13-

''Now, mOat people--and I would say eighty-five percent of

youth--well, maybe eighty percent, Kohnen (1) thinks eighty-five

percent, don't really learn well by doing lessons. Not that they

aren't smart enough, but that isn't the way to learn. They learn

by doing something fOl' f'oal.

"Thore are other types, academic types, I happen to be one of

them, who learn very well.--bookishly, you know, by doing lessons

and having some authority figure l~ad yuu by the hand, but most

people learn much better on the job, and this applies to high tech

nology and it applies to languages, and it applies to literature,

and so forth. "

BUCKLEY: "\0,1011, wha t are the roots, then, of the superati tion,

I guess you'd want to call it, that requires students to stay in

school until age sixteen, or in Borne cases, seventeen ••• "

GOODMAN: 11 tie J 1 ••• "

BUCKLEY: " ... is it a part of the ethic' of egalitarianism?"

GOODHAN: "Yes, fop anti thing, Also,-- well, there are manyroots in the beckg?'ound.

0'

"Ontl, of coupse, was tho need to keep the young off the labor

mar'kot, to keep thorn on ice.

"1'htJ chi] rj la bo!' laws, for the mos t part, Were pushed, partly

for human! tnt'ian rensons, but part 1y in order to keep the labor

market, you know, unoccupied by all those kids.

"lecon,l1y, and oBpecially for higher education, college education,

as Wf;I became--began to be un affluen t society, and this began to hf1,ppen


aroWld 1920, after the First World WAr, it began to be the feeling

t.hat the children of the middle class ought to have the luxuries

cf life, and one of the luxuries of life was to go to college, because

that's what tho children of the upper class used to do, and there

fore the middle class suddenly sold itself on this notion of the

groat virLuvs of college education. In 1900, by the way, ono-quarter

of on(1 ptn'c on t wen t to college. Thi s year , it's nearly fopty percent. . r

I.'ontan tic •.•• II

OO:;KLEY: "What would you say about the general level of ed-

ucation in 1900, as compared to, say, 19651"

GOODMAl~: "It would depend, if we mean ••• "

BUCKLEY: "Well, obviously, I don't mean in atomic physic8.~

GOllDt·1A!;: "Well, if we mean the quarter of one percent ••• "

BUCKLEY: "No, I said generaL."

GOODHAH: "Yes, I mean--if we mean the quarter of one percent

at. the tOl', to compare with the quarter of one percent then, probably

0·'11"3 itl as good, or better. If we mean for the forty percent, it's

not education at all. It's some-- it's ... "

BW;KU:·i: "Goneral leval of intellectual ability, that is to 1ay,."

Gti,)D!1Al. : "In the country Probably the same."

m,,~y.LF,{: "Begar-dless of that, I would like to test your thosi.s •• II

GO()~)MAN: "Probably the same."

BUCK LEY: " •• 0 tha t, in fac t, people will learn and search out

tlvJir own mflHns of learning, and I wonder whether you have any roason

to fiUppOSO thnt in 1900 people, in fact, did so?"

GOODMAN: "Hell, let's say tllis. In 1900, the society operat/3d,

thBt's for sure. That is, all of the profess~ons were filled.


r

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The arts were practiced, the professions were practiced, science

expanded, business was run ••• "

BUCKL~'Y: "Books were read."

GOODMAN: " •••• ra ilroads were -- books were read, railroads

were, you know, run, society went on very nice •••• "

BUCKL..b;Y: "Well, what would you say •••. "

GOODMAN: "See, the burden of the proof, really is on the

colleges, isn't it, to prove that they're necessary. Isn't it?

Hecause without them, like -- well, isn't that true?"

BUCKLEY: "Well, except it is presumably manifest, either

they're necessary, i.e., they are willing sellers and willing buyers,

but would you say that the level of literature in 1900 was a3 high

or higher and the capacity to profit from literature, the addiction

to the imaglnatton, tho interest in truth, was that as high then

as it is now?"

GOODMAN: "I wouldn,'t -- I would find it hard to make that

decision, but I would say this, if we will look, let's say, in

I Who's 'iY'ho.' and 00, a t the bi ographic s of writers, you know,

Dreiser, 01', hmm, whatevor you think of him, is a very good writer-,

or editors, journalt3ts, et cetera, from th~t time, it was ex

tremely rare that you found ono who had taken tho steady course

through all of the schools. They often quit high school, went

to collogo for a year, you know, got into some college for a year,

quit college, very rarely went through four years.

"'l'he course, -- the life course, which now is normal for evary


- 16 -

middle class kid, at that time, simply did not exist for people

wno made their names in inventions, sciences, arts, so forth, and

011 of the professions, as I say, except medicine •••• "

tochnical ~J~dll~l Hctually needed ••••• "

dtJ.;KLt:Y: "Well, I assumo there ,would be machinery that was

ington on -- for tho government poople, on education, and I had some

"Oh, I don't think it's that at all. Do you be-

"Uh huh, uh huh. Of course, there were fewer

"0hhh, well, now lookl - I ran a seminar 1n Wash-

BUCKLEY:

GOUJ)NAi~ :

GOOOMAH:

liOVf) thfl L~ "

8!'qund, it wos much lOS~1 complicat·ed. People can fix a wagonwheel

withU 1,lt beinll, !lble to fix an eight cylinder engine •••• "

" Colonel theru W!lO wns in chl:lrge of Army odueation, and I soid, in

the ArM'] -- they havo very good schooling in the Army, by the way,

now do you teoeh, l'1HY, l'ndnr ropair and operationfl, he said, 'Oh

wo I;r:H)) LOlJeh t;hllt to It:lybody in tl yonr.' On thf.l basis of whAt

prillI- .H; i!C\ I ,1 l.np;'? Non'} whnte'll)r~ You moan he could bo illitorHte?

.:::' G"Il!-.'~{;. it; w,m1dll't r'wl<e lilly difference Whatever. He said,

;,.111', :11 1.:1- ' t\Y'mJ' we don't. h·ne lin:; illitorates, because if they

rome {n illiLt~l'HtO, in A, row month~! we've taught them to read.

n1'o t.:·yil!~ to 10111'11 l.h'Jt. Ho says, well. we U:H3 the 'or-elso'

"'i-) '.,1.0:1 •••••

i J U .:; '\. '. )\ ,.":\ V. A1.. ~l ~

" ••• h:l!i.<:!l t:m't a bud muthod at age eighteen. I wouldn't

·usn it at ago ten."I


'"

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propor kind of oxortati on a t age eight, and age eighteen?"

GOODMAtJ: "Tho standard's the same. Any person will do what's

BUCKLEY: "Oh, I see, so your standards do change . about the

for I'/Itd, IlIld 11 ha's put in a situation, where to pass tne exam-

inr.tiun i:\ !l~C(1Ssary•••• "

.•. ~ ..... r,' : •~ / \ I .... , ••: 0 • ' ~ ;.. • "He'll do it."

(;U;). ';',N: "Ho'll do it. That doesn't mean he's learned uny-

;' :;I'~:jn3 he's passed. See?"

"Well, tho -- I'm getting a signal over here, you

A:UOtJW~ER: "Yos, ana I think the signal is, Mr. Buckley, that

wo mus t pH ll~~e here for just a moment.

"hr,,-, 1~. roturn to 'Firing Line.'"

* *

'i",' ":iCH','.irlg ar.)\Uld tho Joint; hope. 1."01' in~tunce, there is -_ it

'1";1' cr<',; ;'.10 and your anlJlysls to a number of concrete issues that

"Mr. Goodman, muybe it would be a good idea to adLlress.."

h 1""-. :jl'f)p()~led to rnise the compulsory attondance ago from six-

,,'~~hLe()n - you're flg~d.nst. it, right?"

"Yo s • "

"It hU3 been proposed to forbid any state or federal

mdl i'::l ;'r'c;01 go lng in to pri VfJ, te church re la to d schools. You're

J~i)JJl1AN: "Yes, I'm against that. Oh, yes."

bUCKLEY: "Now, would you be ~n favor, for instance, of some of


the steps that were suggested fo~ -- letts say, ignoble reasons

in tho south during the past few years, steps by Which, in fact,

they could avoid racial integration. The business of ~anding over

th each parent x (ex) number of dollars, which he could then pro

ceed to spend at whatever school he saw fit to spend it at ••• "

GOODMAN: "I thought that was a marvelous idea for the wrong

l'OnSOI'l, except I didn't soe that they wero handing the money over

to the little Nogro children, which would have been a great thing.

I think one of the most valuable forms of education we could have,

would be to extend the GI Bill idea down to the high school lovel.

"For In~tance, a kid wllnts to •••• "

BUCKLEY: "'Nhy not pre-high school?"

GOOuMAN: "t'lha t would a nine year old do wi th eight hundred

fifty dollIH'3?"

BUCKLEY :

this •••• II

"jo/ell, presumably, she'd consult her parents on

GOODHAN.:· "Oh, well, thenm you moan give it to the parents?"

BUCKLEY: "Yeah. 1.'

(WCIDMAN: "Oh, yes, I'm for t.hat. That's done in Denmark,

by the way. If twenty parentR have some eLiucational idea ~nd get

themsolves a liconsed teacher .••• ·1

BUCKLb:Y: "Licensed?"

GOODMAN:· " •••• yes, a liconsed -- a state licensed teacher ••• "

BUCKLEY: "You' ro agu ina t th;'lt, a ren' t you?"

GOODMAN: "Oh, no, no, no, no. No, state licensed teacher.

t('; It would depend on what toe rUles j of licensing are. That ia, thereI

© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr, University,

- 19 -

is such a profession. I'm not objecting to the fact that there 1s

a profession of. education. I object to our form of licensing.

That is, there has to be some control of -- to ~lom you give

twenty children.

"Then, those twenty parents can set up a little school and

the state will pay for it, and, in fa9t, ten p~rcent of the Danish

elemontary education 1s run in such free schools, meaning by free,

not that the -- oh, all the schools are paid for by the state,

but that the parents run th~ school the way they feel like running

tne school, why not?"

BUCKLEY: "Well, does the s ta te, then, supervise tne standards ••• "

GOODMAN: . "No. II

BUCKLEY: " •••• wi th reference to, any objec ti "Ie cri teria?"

G00DMAN: "No, no, except that if you want to go on in the

academic line, then in order to get into the lext level, they make

their rUles d3 to what they'll a&nit on, liko college boards."

BUGKLr;Y: "But it's completely up to the parents, whether or

not they want ot pursue a1) academic career •••• "

GOODMAN: "'l'hHtt~l right."

BUCKLEY: " ...• of, a kind that makes it possible .for him to

go onto a higher institution •••• "

GOODMAI1: ..Or.oriftheparentsarewise.i t' s up to the child,

you know. II

BUCKLEY: "Tell me this, Mr. Goodman, do you have any influence

in the Untted States, other tnan among people who admire your

ingenuity and the originality 01' your insights?

"For instance, would you be invited to ~ive a speech before


- 20 -

the NEA, ana •••• "

GOODMAN: "Oh, yes."

BUCK.LEY: " .... and could you survive?"

GOODMAN: " •••• sure, oh, I t vo done that. I've done that.

I moan, I'm the court jester for the American people, you must

know that. TI1at is, they have to have someone who tells them the

wisdom of ttle East, while they go on in their folly, because it's

good for their soul, and they've always -- powers that be, have always

had such people, and there are fow of us at present •.•• "

BUCKLEY: "And they indulge you?1l

GOODMAN: II •••• they do it all the time, they indulge me ••• "

BUCKLEY: "ml huh, uh huh. 11

r'" G0UL>l1AN: "That is, I'm -- I gues s I'm asked to talk on such

'big Wig' occasions twice a week, and I, unfortunately, do it about

once H month •••. 11

BUCKLEY: "Well, do you feel that you're making any headway,

'Jr do you think that we're locked into a rather mechanistic view

of educa t ion as tl) make it highly unlike ly tha t we wi 11 procoed in

trw direct-Lon of odll\;;!t;ion•... "

UUU:)~~A!i : "I 'll put it thi sway, I put 1 t thl sway -- I have

I'm very important person for the radical youth, and I am,

not because I influence tnem, or teach them anything, they're

qUite unt:eachable, tha.nk God, but that what I do prove, at least

to them, 1:J~hat there are alternatives to doing what we do, and

since they're totally dissa tlsfif3d wi tn wua t wo do, they can quote


- 21 -

me a s say lng, well, Goodman suys we needn t t do it that, way, we

could do it this way, see?

"There fore, I porform a very valuable;, psychologic al service

f or t; he M. • • • It

I 1'1' "",Il ,Hun i, ••••

II D .. I II:..>u" Y(lU I{HOW ••••

" •....but, I dlln't know whether you'd c~lll that

"Yenh ••• I've 90m/,ti~es wondered whether you

~'1··.·..···'1

GOt 'l)E ','~ : nyo,~, that's "'hut I'm saying."

"I t ,lomn:l to me thH t, after all, here you are •••• "

ftn' Itt~:1 •

n .... in n ~'fjn3C, a brother to all, An anarchist,

r1 ,'r! t 1 i ',y 1;; I'l'do; to P!'~'StH've your own integri ty, :H1<1 yet, in fact,

" ';\ \I I 1 ~

,I ' •

. :, .. ~ W";!Hl Lho:; :3tlJrt ruining tt1f:l joint in

"/1.tl 4 } ," ,C',.

"Yellh. "

...... /j'~·1l:111y. don't yl'\.1 -- wouldn't 11 be q little

~.. ' ., I' 1')" • 'J \ \ 1" 1 ,,' '#' ') l!J', ... # \ ,.. J t" " -I t

"'!:'lwL -- fi!'nt plft:.:e, HS ,,1rr1llr Khoyatn said, you know,


- 22 -

'I otten wonder what the vintner's bUy, when halt so precious is

the stuff they sell.'

"The affection of the young is a great reward, tor me any

way, nnd, therefore, I can hardly say they exploit me. They do

~or'k mo +:0 doath. My last job was out at San Francisco State

College, whore I Was hired by the students, you know, to be their

teacher. It wus a great thing - this college paid out of student

dues for its own teacher, and the point of it was that I was supp

osed to be teaching them what they weren't getting in the other

school, but, in fact, I wasn't teaching any such tning. I taught

the same thing, but they felt, at least, they could control me,

and I suppose they could•••• "

BUCKLEY: "Well, now, in what sense did they control you?"

GOODMAN: "Well, they could contro),. me, that is, they were ••• It

BUCKLEY: "They could tire you."

GOODMAN: " ••• paying my salary, they could fire me, and I

was beholden to try to, you know •••• "

BUCKLEY: "Did you insist on a contract?"

GOODMAN: "We have contracts. Of course, you have contracts.

Sure. It was all dono in proper order."

BUCKLEY: "Well, the -- do you find them actually interested

1.n a basic critique, is really What I'm anxious to hear you ex

press yourself on, or, as I say, are you simply an amiable eccentric,

who ;3ays heretical things, which 1;hey get sort of charge out of

11.stQning to?1V


- 23 -

GOOUMAN: "No. No.

"rl'hey are very serio U3. But you mus tn' t expect too much

of thorn. See, we live in a socioty, and -- whero these kinds

have beon subject.ed to a bRd educational system at the college

cHtions in our society are corrupt. Very few are exempt from that.

You knuw, the law is corrupt. Business is corrupt. Politics

ifl currupt. Tho phy:dcal ~3ciences have become corrupt. Religion

13 lJecorning n littlH le~s corrupt fox' them, you know, tneology,

tho ::3enlIHtI·ies . "and so ••••r

lJUCKLE;t': "God i~~ beginniug to shupe himself after their

I I' ~ ". m,i ,~)o •

GOODMAN: ffYo8h, yeeh, thut t 8 right •••• "

(~.lA OG H'l'EH )

GOOllMAlJ': " •••• well, no, no, it i~Hl't thut., it's that •••• "

l;lh;KU~Y: "lk mi~!,Il.'." be hi~'ld in SI.l.f:l i"rnnclsco .... "

<,.;uUDHA:j: "Nu, Lt l ,) thut. J t;hink, the existentiolist Frot-

th) c(Jndition~, or modul"n till1e~\ IU'O de-hulnoni.',ing, and they ~uddenly

rnaHidwJ, Jllld nineu t'ne secull'il' :)()~:iet~· ha~ no reletion to ll1unk1nd,

Lh.,~ Y 1111 ve t.o come to 1 ift), hna !,horo fort} 1 t' s a vnrj' rare camp~s

1n t.ho Unitod StHL(j~J, that thu c'~ntor of I'adical Ilcti.vity, is not;


- 24 -

1n the chaplain, you know that? The young chaplain?"

BUCKLEY: "Yes, I know that, and I know that there are

ulternutive reasons for that ••• 11

G00JJHAN: "We li ••••• "

BUCKLl'~Y: "hxp lana ti ons for it, rather. II

G00DM/\.N : "Yes. "

bUCKLl::Y: "'.i.'hor'e are those who believe that a lot of chaplains

.u'e are at trac ted to the t kind of ac ti v i t y, because they themse 1ve s

rind their own religiun deficient, or because they're alarmed at

the lack of eonta,:t with, quotes, reality .... "

GOODMAN: "Yo:.>, sure."

bUCKLbY: "So I think the t thero are a number of reHsons for

OwL, but those yout.h -- to what extent 1s the course of deciding

tllat nul' :.,0einty i.::; insufficient and that the ideals of our society

HPt! in.~~llt'~'tl~ ien', ly humane, to What extent do they turn arotmd nnd

bring 'hl~ IH1w'IILion,.d sy8tem for it, or to what extent do they,

r~ther, Himply 8s~ume that the educational system i~ a natural

eX})I'c:3sion of 11 ~lOetety so orgnnized?"

(J\)O:JEA~:: "'..Jell, it's -- well I think,the latter, but that is

Ll' ue, i ~) n 't. i t. 'i "

b!1~~i\.LC1: "Wull, I don't know •••• "

GOOlIMAN: "I was ut Rutgers yosterday .... "

BU';Y.LEi: " •••• but I don't; think you've made that clear ••• 11

GCODHAN: "I was at Rutgors yesterday •.•• "

BUCKLEY: " ••••• somotimes you seem to be talldng about

teaching methods •••• "


!'

- 25 -

GOOr::t1AN: " ••••no, I was at Rutgers yesterday, and the --

what the students want-ed to know, they were freshmen, it was a

freshmen orientation progrfl.m, and what they wantfJd to know was,

HOW, thE:l t we're here, wha t should we do •••• "

BUCKLEY: "'lttloy listen to you, to begin with ••.• "

GG(;m·1At; : " ••• and thoy said, didn't I think that the edu-

cBtiollal ~,y',telTl, and they had tbree days of Rutger:3, they'd been

thero threo days, but they had been there long enough to say, it

looks very much like the rest of the organl~ed system, 8S they

ellll it. 'fhn t is, they wel'O proce Baed, and there were IBM ca rds,

Ilnd they wore -- they had to take all kinds of sUbjects which they

knew woro not going to be of much importance to thom, not at that

r" mO!T1ont, :.le<:l)llSO thoy WtH'on't choosing them, and it wfl.sn't what

they worn i-d't.eI', et. cutura, and they were being pI'ocossed again.

"::ow, (Jur' society is gpout for social onglnet)l'ing, isn't it?

P. IC~;;:;Jing, ;)';1 fwd large, and I think tHey know this. 'l'hoy know

j t, f.l t t-hl) hi.gh scclOol level •••• II

;:1:.() t.~ill: pnrtlculoI' lWlt.itution., <lidn't they?"

H1'O -- LUOJ buve tn do it in order to get A union card, be\~Huse

t,lw~r ·i.·n't know whatel:w to du \oIrith thomselves, beeause thei!'

~lch()\l.ling hag not given tnem IIny identity or vocation, and to

it void the dl'uft •••• 11

ANNUUHC£R: I,you are watching '.r1irlng Line,' with William

;.' • Hue k1 e y, Jr.


- 26 .~

I'Tonight's guest, Paul Goodman.

"We'll be qack with a questioo. period in just a moment."

* *A!Il~OUHCER : "Hr. Goodman, you have warned Americans against,

whot :you (~~ll, a progJ'o:.Jsivt) rogimentation, whicb could become,

in your' wor<.b, a 1'n sc i :3m 01 th..., contel'.

11;)0 y'cu see the sceds of tais fascism in whet is referred to

as tht:.' cunsensus society or Lyndon Johnson?"

GOO1JHAN: "Fascislll of tho center, that is, rather, what you

have is an est8blish.munt which has no tradition to warrant there

being an oJtEibl1:1hroont.

"1 ,lUl1 1 t like to allswer t'.bat question now, because the con-

m,mth~, tl) my de light., thut why k,lGk that deAd horso? Tho consensus

n()\~ jOt~m) t.o be whutller he should ubuicaLe beforu 1968, or not.. I'

"HI'. :3uc kley, Alber L J. Knuck he s wrl t ton the t

v irt',:n,dy f'Vtlf'yCJntJ i~3 vrairwblo, but tnnt very few peopl~ ar-a

genuln('ly edueuble.

JI. Jd YllU R.CCCp1.. Ln~::J distinction, und i1' so, what inferences

cio you dr'll w fr om it for publ ic educa tlon? II

fl \.I '11'1t)~ I ye~, yos, 1 do. I do accept 1 t in the con-

":io tt'r,d~(l to dJ ~ t :Lngui~lb Vf:Jr';{ Shlll'ply between :3omeone who

30\,ght leal'.i'dng 1'o~' til/) ~\!lko 0,1' l()(.lrning, a11.<1 others wao nought


- 27 -

learning simply because it was a means by which he could acquire

other things, which are not necessarily to learning, but which

may not be achievable without it, and Knock, of course, Was a

very hArsh critic or a confusion of the two system,s and I do

thillk it's true that th~ public schools and the colleges, to a

con~ddel'able extent, continuo that co.nfusion, compound it, and have

H vested interest in it.· f

GOODMAN: "May I make a •••• II

13UC~Y: "Please do. ','

GOODMAN: " •••• comment on that?"

"It's not merely continuing it. It's become the orthodoxy

now. It's called operant-conditioning, and the system of the

~ teaching machines is precisely to train, or instruct, as they say,

rather than to educate.

I~ducation demands some intrinsic motivation, whereas training

requires just prograIYll1ing."

ANNOUN(''ER: "Yes, but you say tha t all young people really

',.J:Jnt to learn."

GOODMAN: "Yes, but they don't want to be programmed. That

is, tbey reach out, and then you give them what they're reaching

out to. It's quite different ir you decide beforehanu what they

11 re supposed to reach to."

ANUOUNCER: "In this context, Mr. Goodman, you've covered a

reI ther wide range of education, from early childhood right through

tho normal college years; I wondex' if we could get your opinions

on 'Operation Headstart' of the 4nti'Poverty Program?"

GOODMAN: "Well, 'Operation Headstart' <?an be many things,


- 2H -

like any nursery school situation. It's obviously very desirable

for kids who never get a warm meal, to get a warm meal. Like the

kids who want to ask a question, get cracked across the face and

told shut up, to have some adult) however inane, smile at them

and be kindly, ana. to read tuem storios and so forth, that's all

very good.

"Operation Headstart, however, is founded ou a -- and tnis

What I'm going to say now, it's not really very important - it

started on a psychological theory, Martin Deutsch, which happens

to be false, that there is such a thing as intellectual faculties,

et cetera - it's the old transfer training nonsense, but it doesn!t

1l1ake any difference, what's good about 'Heads tart' is that kids

wno are living in flats which are overcrowded, too noisy, have no

warm meals, et cetera, nobody who pats them on the head, are not

put in a room which is relatively quiet, and with toys to play

with, and so forth, therefore grecH."

ANNOUNCEH: "Hr. Buckley, would you agree thut the main value·

of 'Operation Headstart' i3 meroly to give a warm meal, and per

haps a pat on the head nnd f.l little peace and quiet?"

BU8KLEY: "Well, r think, provided one u~es the word main

with soma procision. Mr. Goodman may bo right. That is to say,

'Oporation Haadstart' is not conceived as a system th~t is going

to turn H lot of people who would othvrwise be illiterates into

qUAlified studentn for the advanced institute of higher studies,

but, on the o~her hand, I'm perhaps a little bit less skeptical

1ihan Mr. GoodllJon, or at least mor~ optimistic than Mr. Goodman, in


- 29 -

hoping that some of those in the course of having a warm meal,

will also discover there is a certain intellectual excitement in

reading and in wanting to learn. That may be accidental, but •••• "

ANNOUN<;ER: "It's a rather expensive accident, if I may add

that."

G00DKA..l"t: "Oh, we're a very rich Rociety. The amount of

money we ::;pe:Hl on decent things liko this, compared to what we

lJlow 1.:1 Viot Nam - ridiculous!"

ANN OlJ:~CEH : "HI". Goodman •••• II

rlUC:~~Y: "Wo wouldn't have decent things 1 ike this if we

didn't blow money 1n Viet Nam, Mr. Goodman, but let's get off

thot subJect.."

A:iN JU~ CEH : "111"'. Goodman, you're noted for whfl t appe ars to

me t.\) oe n pa radoxi clil remark, tho t more formal schooling of ten

entolls les~l educntion .••• "

GuOm1Al~ : "Ye s. "

ANlJ \nl~CER: " •••• and you seemed to ha vo been taken a t your

word Ly some of your admirers at Berkeley.

''''':o'lld you carH to clArify th~.d, remark for U~l?"

:]uD;)l:;~l~: "WelL, ~_lirnplJ' that if we mean by formal schooling,

:.ho runnin~: of un obstacle course whL~h has been thought a priority

b1 some dean or board of education - see, I was on the board of

ed'l': ,'1 t i on, 0-1 one of the loc a1 boa rds in New York Ci ty a-9-d I know

Wfl03rcot' I :Jp,:wlc, then, this hus very 1ittlo to do with educaticn

in the sen:\(l of a -- offering in the environment of what meets a

(" ne~d to know. 11

ANNOUNCER: "Now, Mr. Buckle:>', you, of course, are a hero of


- 30 -

wnat i~ reforred to as the 'new right', and Hr. Goodman, you are

a hero, or as you phrased it earlier this evening, 'a captive of

the radical youth' ••••• "

GOUDMJU~ : "Ye s , not the new left. "ANNOUHCER: " •••• but you do soem to have a great deal

in common •••• "GODDHAN: .rYes. "ANN OUN CER : "••.•• certainly on many of those things. Do you

see from this somewhn~ curious situation a possibility that there

might be the beginning of a realignment of political forces in

thi s count ry? II

GOODMAl'f: II I s tha t to me? II

GOODHAN: II' / l'.wOol ... , yes, this was obvious in Berkeley itself,

where you fotrod tho t tho Golctwn tel' youth and tho -- were in the

free speech movement for a perfeytly good reason. That is,

they wero all tired of being pushed around by lying admini:J tra tors. II

BUCKLbY: "Oh, I don't think that's a very tight deduction,

is it? 11

G\;OiJHA:; : II'doll, I think tht~ t 's why they were togother on

this issue •..• "

BUCKLEY: II~oll. I don't think thAt they were -- thoy parti-

cipnted in the free speech movemont for thosame reasons, neco-

:u"rl1y, thnt. leu them to back Goldwater."

GOODMAN: "No, tha t'.3 true, but I think that tho backing of

Goldwater is -- meant very many pifferent things. That is, there


- 31 -

was a kind or hard core lunatic fringe. I think even"Jou would

grant that, who backs Goldwater, just as there's a hard core

lunatic fring t) in the •••• "

BUSK:,hY: uSure • Unfortunately, less numerous than the

lW1otii: fringe that back Johnson.~

"""";;: ll'{es, tha't's -- that, I don't think was a lunatic

,',T

,1': that was the 'looney bin' itself."

"Away from the subject of education, Mr. Buckley,

";18 question, may I ask you to answer it? Do you.

','J8 'l!l~ ,,,,,';:Ining of realignment of political forces in this

i') 'C~:l:':': "Oh, I -- people have remarked on a certain con-

gr'lli tJ ~:I > -':'l~ of the recent passions and detractions of the

1\ ' 01'

", t h;'

dght, and the anti-establishment left, ana I think

: think that there Aro reasons that appeal to both

them is a sense of impotence, as a result of th~ furce

,1shmeni, thAt is to say, a desire to recover sov-

, ;' ones own affairfl •••• II

'J: nrro, not a ~)en:-:e 01' impotence, but a refusal to be

i,,;, I'lvmore ••.• II

fl1tr\1~J( fl"um tlJ.at fear 014 impotence •••• "

:~[1i;L .~'{: "And that under circwnstancess that's true, however,

("'" 1 ~i.l:lZ{ that it's unfortunate to ~se Berkeley as a 'corpus vile'

h~re, because in Berkeley, things went berserk, in my judgment,

and pl30ple who were sensible, saw the necessity of a basic order ••• "© Board of Trustees of the Lel~nd Stanford Jr. University.

- 32 -

GOODMAN: "May I say something about that •••• "

BUGKLEY: " ..... as a requirement to any freedom •••• "

GOODMAN: " •••• about that.

"I've been to Berkeley this year a good deal. I think that

any impartial observer out there would say that both the academic

fj tmosphere and the community atmosphere in Berkeley, this year,

HPe fur better than they have be€m in the last twenty years.

tf'rhorefore, it's really very unfair to say that the in

~luprectionary troubles were for the bad."

BUCKLEY: "well, it's impossible to crack your syllogism

if you accept the assumption. I maintain that for somebody like

Proressor William Peterson, or Professor Lewis Foyer, are im-

~ partial observers, and they come to precisely the contrary ••• "

G00DHAH: "Foyer haan' t impartially observed anything since

he Was a child •••• II

ANNUUNGER: "I try to be an impartial observer gentlemen,

and I dislike interrupting as much as possible, but we have to

flluse here for just a moment."

BUCKLhY: "Well, Hr. Goodman, I have only forty seconds in

which to thank you very much. I will spend the next hour de

bri,:,fing my son Who is in tne audience, and goes off to a non

permissive boarding school tomorrow, but I do thank you very much,

and I am extr&ordinarily interested by your insights, as I',

sure everybody else is, and alth0'f\gh I don't go witu. you all the

way, I know that's not of great concern to you ••• "

* * *


.., 33 -

GOODMAN: "I'm not sure I do either."

BUCKLEY: "•••• I've greatly enjoyed listening to you, and

have profited a lot from this and your books, and thank you

again. "

&4

GOODMAN:

BUCKLEY:

"Well, l'm glad to have bean on tn.:, program."

"Thank you."


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