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PP 2020/0013

REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE

ON THE CODE OF CONDUCT FOR

PUBLIC SERVANTS

(PETITION FOR REDRESS OF

GRIEVANCE)

FOR THE SESSION 2019-20


ON THE CODE OF CONDUCT FOR PUBLIC SERVANTS

(PETITION FOR REDRESS OF GRIEVANCE)


The Committee was established in accordance with the standing orders during the

Tynwald Court sitting of 17th October 2019 by approval of the motion:

That a committee of three Members be appointed to consider and report on

the Petition for Redress of Dorothy and Philip Salmon presented at St John’s on

5th July 2019 in relation to the Code of Conduct for Public Servants.

The powers, privileges and immunities relating to the work of a committee of

Tynwald are those conferred by sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act

1876, sections 1 to 4 of the Privileges of Tynwald (Publications) Act 1973 and

sections 2 to 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1984.

Committee Membership

Mr T M Crookall MLC (Chairman)

Mrs K A Lord-Brennan MLC

Ms J M Edge MHK (Onchan)

Copies of this Report may be obtained from the Tynwald Library, Legislative

Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas IM1 3PW (Tel: 01624 685520) or may be consulted at

www.tynwald.org.im

All correspondence with regard to this Report should be addressed to the Clerk of

Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas IM1 3PW.

[Address redacted]

Table of Contents

I. INTRODUCTION ............................................................................................. 1

II. THE INQUIRY ................................................................................................. 1

ORAL EVIDENCE .................................................................................................... 5

28TH NOVEMBER 2019 EVIDENCE OF MR PHILIP SALMON AND MRS DOROTHY SALMON 7

To: The Hon Stephen C Rodan OBE MLC, President of Tynwald,

and the Hon Council and Keys in Tynwald assembled


ON THE CODE OF CONDUCT FOR PUBLIC SERVANTS

(PETITION FOR REDRESS OF GRIEVANCE)


I. INTRODUCTION

1. The Committee was established by the following resolution of Tynwald Court on

17th October 2019 –

That a committee of three Members be appointed to consider and report on

the Petition for Redress of Dorothy and Philip Salmon presented at St John’s on

5th July 2019 in relation to the Code of Conduct for Public Servants.

2. The Members of the Committee are Mr T M Crookall MLC, elected as Chairman,

Mrs K A Lord-Brennan MLC and Ms J M Edge MHK.

II. THE INQUIRY

3. In addition to the original petition, we received written evidence from the

petitioners, Mrs Dorothy Salmon and Mr Philip Salmon. The written evidence

contained details of the events that led to a petition being submitted and

demonstrated the ways in which the petitioners feel they had been failed by the

actions of public servants.

1

4. We heard the oral evidence of Mrs and Mr Salmon on 28th November 2019,

during which it unfortunately became clear that the true objective of the petition

did not fall within the remit of this Committee.

5. The Committee was established on the basis that the current Code of Conduct

for Public Servants was claimed to be unfit for purpose and that there was a

need for policy to be reviewed in this respect. However, during the oral evidence

hearing, when asked to elaborate on how the Code of Conduct is not fit for

purpose, the petitioners responded that:

The Code is fit for purpose but it is not being adhered to.1

6. We suggested that the Petitioners pursue avenues of official complaint or consult

the Tynwald Commissioner for Administration. Mr Salmon responded:

(in response to a suggestion that he take a matter up with the Douglas Borough

Council)

I have not got time to do that.2

(in response to suggestions that he take matters up with the Tynwald Commissioner)

I fully appreciate what you are saying but I do not want to spend my whole life

writing letters.3

and

I do not want to spend my life making official complaints.4

7. Whilst we understand the frustrations of the petitioners and can appreciate the

difficulties they appear to be facing as a result of the Code potentially not being

effectively implemented, if that is the case, the matter is one which should be

resolved using formal complaints processes and, ultimately, if these processes

are not successful, perhaps using the Tynwald Commissioner for Administration.

The area of complaint relates to specific actions of public servants, not about the

overall fitness for purpose of the Code.

8. It is not possible for a Committee on a Petition for Redress of Grievance to

examine a Petition that turns out not to be about the matters which appear on

1Q4, lines 50-51

2Q26, line 206

3Q27, lines 221-222

4Q30, line 244

2

the face of the Petition. The reality of the complaint was not reflected in the

terms of the Petition.

9. Upon review of all of the evidence received by this Committee, and on the advice

of the Clerk of Tynwald, we conclude that it would not be possible to investigate

the matter further without being in violation of the Standing Orders of Tynwald

Court:

6.11 Every petition for redress must –

(c) not relate to any specific case which could be or has been adjudicated

upon by the High Court or any tribunal or arbitration, or any formal

officially recognised complaints procedure, unless the petition shows

that in the particular circumstances it is not reasonable to expect the

petitioner to resort, or to have resorted, to such remedy.

10. The objective of the Petition does not fall within the remit of this Committee and

can therefore be taken no further without violating Standing Order 6.11(c) of

Tynwald Court.

T M Crookall (Chairman)

K A Lord-Brennan

J M Edge

January 2020

3

ORAL EVIDENCE

5

28th November 2019

Evidence of Mr Philip Salmon and Mrs

Dorothy Salmon

7

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings,

Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2019

S E L E C T C O M M I T T E E

O F

T Y N W A L D C O U R T

O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L

B I N G E R – L H E H T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

Code of Conduct for Public Servants (Petition for Redress)

HANSARD

Douglas, Thursday, 28th November 2019

PP2019/0166 CCPS, No. 1

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:

www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard

9

http://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard

SELECT COMMITTEE, THURSDAY, 28th NOVEMBER 2019

__________________________________________________________________ 2 CCPS

Members Present:

Chairman: Mr T M Crookall MLC Ms J M Edge MHK

Mrs K A Lord-Brennan MLC

Clerk:

Mr R I S Phillips

Assistant Clerk:

Miss I Perry

Contents Procedural ........................................................................................................................................ 3

EVIDENCE OF Mr Philip Salmon and Mrs Dorothy Salmon .............................................................. 3

The Committee adjourned at 2.18 p.m. ........................................................................................... 9

10


__________________________________________________________________ 3 CCPS

Select Committee of Tynwald on Code of Conduct for Public Servants

(Petition for Redress)

The Committee sat in public at 2.00 p.m. in the Legislative Council Chamber,

Legislative Buildings, Douglas

[MR CROOKALL in the Chair]

Procedural

The Chairman (Mr Crookall): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public meeting on the Code of Conduct for Public Servants. My name is Tim Crookall MLC; I am the Chair of this Committee. With me are the other members of the Committee, Mrs Kate Lord-Brennan MLC and Ms Julie Edge MHK. We are assisted by the Clerk to the Committee today.

Please ensure that any mobile phones are turned off or on silent, so we do not have any 5 interruptions. For the purposes of Hansard, I will also be ensuring that we do not have more than two people talking at once.

This Committee was established to consider the Petition for Redress of Grievance of Mrs Dorothy Salmon and Mr Philip Salmon on the Code of Conduct for Public Servants. Today we will be taking evidence from the petitioners. 10

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Chair. I would, at this stage, like to declare an interest, as I hold the role of Vice-Chair of the Office

of Fair Trading. 15 The Chairman: The reason for stating that obviously is it was mentioned in your letter – just

so we are aware of that.

EVIDENCE OF Mr Philip Salmon and Mrs Dorothy Salmon

Q1. The Chairman: For the record, please state your names and in which capacity you are

with us today when talking. We welcome you here to the Legislative Council Chambers this afternoon, and I will pass over to you to inform us of your Petition. We are very grateful for the 20 paperwork that you submitted to us earlier, but obviously anybody else listening in at the moment has not had the benefit of reading that, so if you would like to make a statement?

Mr Salmon: Is the Petition not going to be read out? 25 Q2. The Clerk: No, not normally, because that is a matter of record. Perhaps I could help you

by saying that maybe, because your Petition is about how the Code of Conduct for Public

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Servants issued by the Isle of Man Government is not fit for purpose, you might explain why you think it is not fit for purpose.

30 Mr Salmon: It is not, because when you go and ask a question of somebody in any position

they have never gone out of their way to help, to say there is a concern over why that is … They have just put barriers in the way, and it seems to be everywhere I have gone. They just purposely make things difficult. For things it should be simple to get answers to, they send you off here, there and everywhere: no answer. That is about it. 35

Q3. The Chairman: Going by the information you sent us, this obviously goes back at least to

2007, (Mr Salmon: Yes.) and in that time you have had conversations with various officers about the way you have been –

40 Mr Salmon: There are various things. I have been given different advice on different … One

minute the advice is right for somebody, and the next minute it is wrong for me. There is the law, there are the rules; there are rules that they have to follow, and they change as and when they suit.

45 Q4. The Chairman: The Code of Conduct obviously is a written document, so my question to

you would be is the Code fit for purpose, or is it that it is …? If I were to say yes, it is fit for purpose, but is it being adhered to …?

Mr Salmon: You just took the words out of my mouth. The Code is fit for purpose but it is not 50

being adhered to. Q5. The Chairman: In which case, I would say to you that is probably a case for you to

present to the Ombudsman and get them to take that up for you. If you believe the Code is not being followed, then that would be for the Ombudsman to take up on your behalf. 55

Mr Salmon: It is not just the Ombudsman, is it? There are others, but the Ombudsman is – Q6. The Clerk: That is right. There are many avenues of – 60 Mr Salmon: In my submission not just the Ombudsman is mentioned, but that is one. I will

give you an example of the Ombudsman and the Code of Conduct. I had a letter from Lloyds two days ago, telling me that they are not going to reply to any more of my letters because it is now in the hands of an independent arbitrator.

65 Q7. The Clerk: Sorry, that is from Lloyds Bank, did you say? Mr Salmon: From Lloyds Bank. Q8. The Clerk: That is not really something that this Committee can look at, because this is 70

about public servants. Mr Salmon: No, but I have been going, from my side, from a civil servant point of view. Mrs Salmon: We have not been told. 75 Mr Salmon: I have not been told, so why have Lloyds been told before I have? I am the

complainant, so why have Lloyds been informed that it is in the hands of an independent arbitrator when I have not, and who has told them?

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Q9. The Clerk: Is that a complaint relating to Lloyds Bank? 80 Mr Salmon: Yes, it was. Q10. The Clerk: Well, they will have been told about the complaint if it is about Lloyds Bank,

won’t they? 85 Mr Salmon: I have not been informed that it is in the hands of an independent arbitrator. I

have asked for it, I have filled the forms in, but I do not know. So, the first I am informed is when Lloyds tell me.

90 Q11. The Clerk: Yes, okay. I think the Committee cannot second guess a process that is

already under way, so that is something – Mr Salmon: So, is it part of the process, not to keep people informed and –? 95 Q12. The Chairman: But that is what I was asking before – Mr Salmon: That is in the Code of Conduct. Q13. The Chairman: If something is not happening that it says should happen in the Code of 100

Conduct, then there is obviously a way of following that up and finding out where the system is falling down.

Mr Salmon: We have done that. 105 Q14. The Clerk: The Code of Conduct is structured and divided into three sections. It is about

openness, it is about integrity and it is about accountability, and what you are talking about is the way in which –

Mr Salmon: It is not openness if they are informing Lloyds that adjudicators are involved; 110

they have not informed me, and I am the one making a complaint. Q15. The Clerk: Well, okay, that is a specific issue that is not necessarily relating to public

servants but to Lloyds Bank, isn’t it? 115 Mr Salmon: Well, who informed Lloyds Bank? Q16. Ms Edge: Has your complaint gone into the FSA? Mr Salmon: Yes. 120 Q17. Ms Edge: So, you are following their process now and you do not feel that they have

complied with –? Mr Salmon: The point is they have never come back with any … Bar an official ‘I have got 125

your letter’, nobody has phoned me and said, ‘What is your problem? Have you got a problem? Can I speak to you?’ Nothing.

Q18. The Chairman: So, that would go to the Financial Services Ombudsman, then, rather

than the Tynwald ombudsman, (Mr Salmon: Yes.) but there is definitely a path for you to take 130 there, if that is what has happened.

13


__________________________________________________________________ 6 CCPS

Mr Salmon: I have taken the path with it. The Clerk: I think that one of the difficulties that I should underline is that Petitions for

Redress of Grievance of Tynwald are only able to be looked at if they relate to matters of policy 135 rather than individual complaints. If there is already an alternative complaint process, then the Petition would not be in order. This Committee really ought not to look at, or cannot look at things where you could sue or you could undertake a complaints process, as you are actually undertaking now, because that is an alternative to the Petition for Redress, you see.

140 Q19. Ms Edge: Obviously you have sent us quite a lot of detail. What I did not see within the

detail you sent is which areas of the Code you felt were failing. You did say that they are not helpful and there are barriers. Can you explain which areas within the Code of Conduct you feel have failed, or is it the whole policy?

145 Mr Salmon: Pretty much the whole lot of it, just the communication and keeping you in the

loop, telling you that you are right or wrong. They just put barriers up all the time. I do not feel I have had any help from many a civil servant.

There is not just the bank case involved there. There is Argyle House and the rates. There are two places I know, next door to me, that have not paid their rates for six years. They have 150 affected my life. I have gone to places and I have said, ‘Why have the rates not been paid? I paid mine.’ They do not want to know. I pay my rates.

That is why I have given you a broad sweep of it. If you think they have followed the procedures, I do not think they have.

155 Q20. Ms Edge: Has the communication been written, or has a lot of it been verbal? Mr Salmon: I have been to places and asked questions, and I have a lot of written questions

going back down the years, and I have had no help. I am just a businessman. I have a shop to run every day and I have not got time to spend all day out … I should be able to ask a simple 160 question: why am I paying my rates on that building and he is not; why am I being asked why the company form is not in that day, but he can get away with six years?

Q21. The Chairman: I think on the rates one, you mentioned in your submission to us that

you had been to the Corporation and I think that had been to court. They followed that up? 165 Mr Salmon: The Corporation took it to court eventually, six years later, but in the meantime I

lost the back end of all my building for six years because it was raining in and they would not do anything about it. Six flats down the building and I lost the back room of six of them because it was raining in. 170

Q22. The Chairman: But as far as rates were concerned, Douglas took that to court but did

not follow it up because they did not collect on it? Mr Salmon: They did not follow it up for six years, but they followed me up after one year. 175 Q23. The Chairman: What I am saying is the procedures are in place but they are not being

followed up, so – Mr Salmon: They are not being followed up. 180 The Chairman: – that is, again, something you need to follow up with Douglas Corporation,

why they did not do that.

14


__________________________________________________________________ 7 CCPS

Mr Salmon: Like I said, I have got a shop to run and a business to run, and that should just be said. And I got a letter back from the Corporation telling me 99.7% of rates are collected. Why 185 does the 0.3% live next door to me?

Q24. The Chairman: I am not saying it excuses it. Mr Salmon: I know, but why does the 0.3% live next door to me, then? It cannot possibly be 190

99.7%. I paid mine. They did not have an issue with it. I told them that building was going to fall down. They put scaffolding up for two years. Who paid for it? Me, with the rates. I cannot get away with not paying my rates for six years, and I should not.

Q25. The Chairman: It sounds, Mr Salmon, as though there are certain people you need to be 195

in contact with again, just asking why the procedures have not been followed and why, as a ratepayer or as whatever –

Mr Salmon: I do not want to spend my life writing letters. I went to the ratepayers and I

asked them, and I got a letter back saying basically, ‘How very dare you ask me a question like 200 that? How very dare you?’

Q26. The Chairman: And in that circumstance you should be taking that up with the council

as to why – 205 Mr Salmon: I have not got time to do that. The people have not got time to do that. It is the

rules and the regulations. It is in there: ‘We will collect your money because that is what we do: we collect the money off everybody.’

Q27. Ms Edge: Can I just ask, obviously you have been in communication with Douglas 210

Corporation and you feel that their officers have failed you. Obviously there are regulations around –

Mr Salmon: I totally get that, yes. 215 Ms Edge: – disclosing personal information, but there is process in place so that if you feel

policy has not been adhered to and you have exhausted every option under the policies, you can go to the Tynwald Commissioner and you can submit your issues with that and they would investigate where policy has failed, because it is not just the Code of Conduct –

220 Mr Salmon: I fully appreciate what you are saying but I do not want to spend my whole life

writing letters. I have got a job to do, I have grandchildren, I have a life. I do not do litigation; that is the last thing I want to do. The last thing on earth I want to do is be here today, but I feel I have been pushed into a position where I have to be.

225 Q28. Ms Edge: I fully appreciate that and I know how difficult it must be, but when you

started you did say that the Code, you felt, is fit for purpose but is not being adhered to, and in some of the comments that you have given us in your documentation you have highlighted that. But if the organisations are not aware of the policy failures, they will never be able to satisfy your needs, so there is a process there that needs to be followed, and once that is exhausted 230 you then have the other option. Obviously the Petition is the Code of Conduct for Public Servants, which you say is fine; it is just that individual officers are not adhering to it.

15


__________________________________________________________________ 8 CCPS

Q29. The Chairman: And, if I could say, the only one who can follow that up with those people is you – whether in the case of Lloyds Bank, Douglas Corporation or Government, to take 235 that to the particular Ombudsman, Commissioner, or whoever.

Mr Salmon: I do not feel I should have to. If they follow the Code of Conduct, I should not

have to have to do that, should I? 240 Q30. The Chairman: But if there is an official complaint to make, you are the one to make

that. Mr Salmon: I do not want to spend my life making official complaints; I just want … No, I do

not. With all due respect, you have given me two people to write official complaints to already in 245 the 10 minutes I have been in here. It is a lot of work and it is a lot of stress. I should be able to go and ask my questions. I do not expect people to bow, but just do your job. Why am I paying my rates; why are you not? Why have I not been informed that there is an independent arbitrator judging my … after the Ombudsman I have been to, but Lloyds have? They are all the same questions that seem to keep coming back. I am getting no help. I am not asking them to do 250 me a favour. I have put the evidence there. I have not asked anybody to change the law for me. I have just pointed out the law, using their laws, using the statement, using …

Q31. The Chairman: Have you got anything else you would like to say? 255 Mr Salmon: Everything I want to say is in there. I just think you should seriously have a look

at it. It cannot be just me being affected by it; it is a lot of people, and people who have not got money … You go there for their help. They are there to help both sides, and whatever is right is right. They point you towards a lawyer. A lawyer is ten grand just for walking in the door, as well as a day setting it up, a day doing that, and a day … It is simple; it should just be done. 260

As I say, I am not asking for any favours. If I am wrong, I am wrong, and I will go in and say, ‘Why is that …?’ But I expect, if I am right, that they just do their job, follow the Code.

It is not for me to write in and complain. There are people above them, the chief executives, who can look at that: ‘Is that being done? Are we following that?’ And maybe they might say, ‘Oh, we have not had a complaint,’ and so I have had to write a complaint, so they … But it is not 265 right.

Q32. The Chairman: Have you written in the past and complained? You have written, that is

all I am saying. 270 Mr Salmon: I have got a trail of letters. I can provide you with more, if you want, going back

to probably 2003. It has been a lot of work. I have had little help. Q33. Ms Edge: When you have done the written complaints and you have received

correspondence back, do you feel it was finalised; or you do not feel you have ever had a 275 conclusion?

Mr Salmon: It is not …‘Don’t dare write to me. How very dare you? You are wasting my time.’

It was not, ‘Well, I appreciate your …’ I will give you letters back … My MHK – I have forgotten her name now; she got married. (The Clerk: Clare Barber.) Clare – I could not think for a second 280 there! I wrote to Clare and she said, ‘I can’t believe the tone of some of those letters.’ It should not be. I have just asked a question. Just give me an answer.

Q34. Ms Edge: They can be shared with the Committee if you are willing to share them.

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Mr Salmon: Yes, you can have anything you want. I have got a trail of letters. I do not like 285 writing letters, but I have got a trail of them.

Q35. The Chairman: Okay, if that is all you have to say this afternoon? Mr Salmon: That is pretty much all, yes. Everything is there. I will just let you go and have a 290

look at it and see what you think. Q36. The Chairman: Okay, well, we will certainly have a look at that, Mr Salmon. If you want to forward any extra paperwork, like Ms Edge has just mentioned, we are happy

to have a look at that. 295 Thank you very much for your time this afternoon. Mr Salmon: I will forward you some paper ork. Ms Edge: You have got a stack big enough there! 300 The Chairman: Mr Salmon, Mrs Salmon, thank you very much indeed. Mr and Mrs Salmon: Thank you.

The Committee adjourned at 2.18 p.m.

17

Parliamentary Copyright

available from:

The Tynwald Library

Legislative Buildings

DOUGLAS

Isle of Man, IM1 3PW

British Isles

January 2020

Tel: 01624 685520

e-mail: [email protected] Price: £3.40

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