priority-one court reporting services inc. – a veritext ...reilly 1 a resume - john reilly 300 17...

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY

2 __________________________________

3 ANDREW ZAKANYCH and JOAN ZAKANYCH Plaintiffs

4 -against- Index No. L-007567-09

5 THERMO FISHER SCIENTIFIC INC., f/k/a FISHER

6 SCIENTIFIC INTERNATIONAL INC., et al., Defendants

7 __________________________________

8 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY

9 LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY __________________________________

10 RAYMOND FELDNER and BARBARA FELDNER, Husband

11 and Wife Plaintiffs

12 Docket No. vs. L-001052-10

13 AMERICAN PREMIER UNDERWRITERS, INC., et al.

14 Defendants __________________________________

15

16 COURT OF COMMON PLEAS PHILADELPHIA COUNTY, PA

17 __________________________________

18 ROBERT BLACKBURN, JR. Plaintiff

19 Asbestos Case vs. Term, March 2010

20 No. 02699 ASBESTOS CORPORATION LIMITED, et al.,

21 Defendants

22 __________________________________

23 Videotaped Deposition Under

24 Oral Examination of JOHN REILLY

25

Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company718-983-1234

1 Transcript of the videotaped

2 deposition of JOHN REILLY, called for Oral

3 Examination in the above-captioned matter, said

4 deposition being taken pursuant to the Federal

5 Rules of Civil Procedure by and before Michele

6 Cannata-Smith, Court Reporter and Notary Public

7 in and for the State of New York; taken at

8 Hyatt Regency Hotel, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania,

9 on March 1, 2011, commencing at 10:08 a.m.

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1 I N D E X

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3 JOHN REILLY PAGE

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5 EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY 9

6 EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAMS 299

7 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY 340

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11 E X H I B I T S

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13 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

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15 JOHN REILLY 1 A document - 9/7/71, 133

16 JOHN REILLY 2 Fisher Scientific Catalog 148

17 74

18 JOHN REILLY 3 Letter - 1/23/76 156

19 JOHN REILLY 4 Fisher Scientific Catalog 168

20 77

21 JOHN REILLY 5 A memo - 5/2/77 180

22 JOHN REILLY 6 A letter - 10/11/78 190



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1 E X H I B I T S (CONT.)

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3 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

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13 JOHN REILLY 17 A document - printed 291

14 12/29/05

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16 DEFT. REILLY 1 A resume - John Reilly 300

17 DEFT. REILLY 2 A letter - 12/3/75 328

18 DEFT. REILLY 3 A letter - 3/23/79 335

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:

2 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH

3 BY: GONEN HAKLAY, ESQ. Two Commerce Square

4 2001 Market Street, Suite 2900 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103

5 Appearing for the Plaintiffs

6 HINKHOUSE WILLIAMS WALSH, LLP BY: JOHN T. WILLIAMS, ESQ.

7 180 North Stetson Avenue, Suite 3400 Chicago, Illinois 60601

8 Appearing for the Defendant Fisher Scientific

9 McGIVNEY & KLUGER, PC

10 BY: WILLIAM J. BRYERS, ESQ. 1650 Arch Street, 18th Floor

11 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19130 Appearing for the Defendant

12 Duro-Dyne (Blackburn)

13 ECKERT SEAMANS CHERIN & MELLOTT, LLC

14 BY: WILLIAM B. PENTECOST, JR., ESQ. 600 Grant Street, 44th Floor

15 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 Appearing for the Defendant

16 CBS (Blackburn)

17 PIETRAGALLO GORDON ALFANO BOSICK & RASPANTI, LLP

18 BY: PHILIP P. KEATING, ESQ. One Oxford Centre, 38th Floor

19 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 Appearing for the Defendant

20 General Electric (Blackburn)

21 LAVIN, O'NEIL, RICCI, CEDRONE & DISIPIO BY: CAROLYN L. MCCORMACK, ESQ.

22 Suite 500 190 North Independence Mall West

23 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106 Appearing via phone for the Defendant

24 3M Company (Blackburn)

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1 PATTON BOGGS LLP AMY D. CRISCUOLO, ESQ.

2 One Riverfront Plaza, 6th Floor Newark, New Jersey 07102

3 Appearing via phone for the Defendant Pharmacia fka Monsanto Company

4 SPEZIALI, GREENWALD & HAWKINS

5 BY: DAVID SPEZIALI, ESQ. 1081 Winslow Road

6 Williamstown, New Jersey 08094 Appearing via phone for the Defendant

7 General Electric (Feldner)

8 MCELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER, LLP CHAD D. MOUNTAIN, ESQ.

9 1617 John F. Kennedy Blvd Suite 1500

10 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 Appearing via phone for the Defendants

11 Chevron U.S.A., Inc., Valero Energy Corporation and Exxon Mobil Corporation

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13 HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS BY: SHAZIA CHAUDRI deWIT, Esq.

14 40 Paterson Street New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903

15 Appearing via phone as national and local counsel for Fisher

16 Scientific, Mettler-Toledo (Feldner)

17 DINSMORE & SHOHL, LLP BY: DAVID SINGLEY, ESQ.

18 One Oxford Centre, 28th Floor Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219

19 Appearing via phone for the Defendant Minteq, Inc., incorrectly identified as a

20 wholly-owned subsidiary of Minerals Technologies, Inc. (Feldner)

21 HOFHEIMER GARTLIR & GROSS, LLP

22 BY: GARY N. SMITH, ESQ. 530 Fifth Avenue

23 New York, New York 10036 Appearing via phone for the Defendant

24 Rapid American Corp. (Blackburn)

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1 KELLEY, JASONS, MCGOWAN, SPINELLI & HANNA, L.L.P. BY: LIZA STAGLIANO, ESQ.

2 Two Liberty Place, Suite 1900 50 South 16th Street

3 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 Appearing via phone for the Defendants

4 BayerCrop Science, FMC, Ingersoll Rand and Bechtel (Blackburn)

5 GOLDFEIN & JOSEPH

6 BY: JANET GOLUP, ESQ. 1880 JFK Boulevard, 20th Floor

7 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 Appearing via phone for the Defendant

8 Asbestos Corporation Limited (Blackburn)

9

10 ALSO PRESENT: MATT BERTLES, VIDEOGRAPHER

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1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. My

2 name is Matt Bertles. I'm here on behalf of

3 Veritext Court Reporting Services. Today's date

4 is March 1, 2011. The time now is approximately

5 10:08 a.m. This deposition is being held at the

6 Hyatt, Pittsburgh, located at 1111 Airport

7 Boulevard, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

8 The caption of this case is Andrew and

9 Joan Zakanych versus Thermo Fisher Scientific,

10 et al; Raymond and Margaret Feldner versus

11 American Premier Underwriters, et al.; and

12 Robert Blackburn versus Asbestos Corporation

13 Limited, et al.

14 The name of the witness today is John

15 Reilly. At this time the attorneys will

16 identify themselves after which our court

17 reporter, Michele Smith, here on behalf of

18 Veritext Reporting, will swear in the witness

19 and we can proceed.

20 MR. HAKLAY: Gonen Haklay, attorney for

21 the Plaintiffs in all three of these cases from

22 Cohen, Placitella & Roth in Philadelphia.

23 MR. WILLIAMS: John Williams,

24 Hinkhouse, Williams, Walsh in Chicago for Fisher

25 Scientific.


1 JOHN REILLY, after being duly called

2 and sworn, testified as follows:

3 MR. WILLIAMS: Gonen, let me just make

4 one statement for the record in terms of the

5 notice. Let me just object to the subpoena.

6 The subpoenas in the Zakanych and Feldner case

7 were not properly served and procedurally

8 defective. With respect to the Pennsylvania

9 case, the subpoena was defective in that there

10 was no witness fee provided to the witness,

11 among other things. And with respect to the

12 video, there was not a proper notice with

13 respect to videotaping the deposition pursuant

14 to Rule 4017.1(b).

15 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. Well, we'll proceed

16 and your objections are on the record.

17

18 EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY:

19

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Reilly.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Let me introduce myself again. I know

23 we just met. My name is Gonen Haklay. I'm an

24 attorney with the law firm of Cohen, Placitella

25 & Roth.


1 A. Okay.

2 Q. We represent the plaintiffs in three

3 different cases in which Fisher Scientific is

4 either the defendant or one of the defendants in

5 each of those cases.

6 The first is a case in which we

7 represent a couple named Andrew and Joan

8 Zakanych; the second is a case which we

9 represent Raymond and Barbara Feldner; and the

10 third is a case in which we represent a man who

11 is now deceased named Robert Blackburn, Junior.

12 Sir, have you ever had your deposition

13 taken before?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Have you ever appeared in any way in

16 any kind of court proceeding?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Have you ever given testimony in any

19 way that would be used in any kind of a legal

20 case?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Well, let me give you a

23 couple of ground rules, and if at any time you

24 want to find out more about them, you just stop

25 and ask, okay? Even if I'm in the middle of a


1 question or I just asked one before you answer.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. First, it's our goal that you only

4 answer questions you understand, okay? So if I

5 ask you a question and you do not understand it,

6 tell me you do not understand it, tell me you do

7 not know what I mean by that, tell me that

8 you're confused about that, tell me anything you

9 want that would indicate to me I should ask it

10 in a different way or a better way, okay?

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. Second, we don't want any wild guesses.

13 If I, for instance, ask you how long the

14 conference table is in the room next door, I

15 don't want you to guess because you don't know.

16 If I ask you how long each of these tables is

17 that we're sitting at right now, you probably

18 don't have a tape measure -- I don't know, but

19 you probably don't -- but you may very well be

20 able to give an approximation. If you can give

21 us an approximation, let us know that's what it

22 is and give it, but do not guess.

23 If, for instance, I ask you when

24 something happened, and you only know it

25 happened in the 1960s, that's the best you can


1 do, the late 1960s or early 1960s, tell us that

2 and let us know you're approximating. If you

3 know exactly when it happened, tell us exactly

4 when it happened.

5 Third, because we have a court reporter

6 who's writing everything down, there's a couple

7 of things we need to do that are not normal for

8 conversation outside of a deposition. First,

9 even though you may know before I finish my

10 question what I'm going to ask and where I'm

11 going with a question, you have to wait for me

12 to finish so that we're not talking over each

13 other. And conversely, even though I know what

14 you're saying, I've got to wait to ask my next

15 question. So if we stop you and say, wait until

16 I finish my question, I'm not trying to be rude,

17 I'm just trying to create a good record.

18 Second, because everything is being

19 written down, people say uh-uh or uh-hum a lot.

20 We can't do that. You have to say yes or no if

21 that's the answer you intend to give. Just

22 because uh-uh and uh-hum look a lot like each

23 other when they're written down.

24 And, third, lawyers in the room may

25 enter objections to certain questions. It does


1 not mean they're instructing you not to answer,

2 but they're creating a record that they feel

3 they need to create. If you hear a lawyer

4 entering an objection, you need to wait until

5 they're finished and then you can answer the

6 question unless instructed otherwise. Okay?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. Do you have any questions?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. Are you represented by a lawyer

11 here today?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And who is that?

14 A. Mr. John Williams.

15 Q. Okay. Sitting to your right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And have you retained Mr. Williams?

18 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm representing

19 Mr. Reilly at this deposition, yes.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. And have you retained Mr. Williams?

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I object to the

23 form. To the extent the witness understands the

24 legal questions and legal implication. I'm

25 stating for the record that I have been retained


1 to represent Mr. Reilly at this deposition.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. Is that true, sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And how long has Mr. Williams

6 represented you?

7 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. But

8 you can answer if you understand.

9 THE WITNESS: We met yesterday.

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. Okay. And is that when he started

12 representing you?

13 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.

14 That calls for a legal conclusion. But you can

15 answer if you know.

16 THE WITNESS: I knew he represented me

17 several weeks ago via telephone conversations.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Okay. Who were those conversations

20 with? Don't tell me what was in them, tell me

21 who they were with.

22 A. With Mr. Williams and others.

23 Q. Who's the others? Who are the others?

24 A. Probably some employees of Fisher

25 Scientific -- Thermo Fisher.


1 Q. Current employees?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who did you speak with that's a current

4 employee of Fisher Scientific?

5 A. Kathy Hartman and Edie Nataro.

6 Q. You don't have any idea how to spell

7 Nataro, do you?

8 A. I think it's N-A-T-A-R-O, I believe.

9 Q. Have you spoken with -- are either of

10 those people attorneys?

11 A. I believe Kathy Hartman is an attorney.

12 Q. For Fisher Scientific?

13 A. Thermo Fisher, yes, I believe.

14 Q. So there's no confusion, is Thermo

15 Fisher part of the current name of that company?


17 Calls for speculation. You can answer if you

18 know.

19 THE WITNESS: I believe Thermo Fisher

20 is the proper name of that company now. That's

21 my belief.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. Okay. If I say "Fisher Scientific",

24 will it be clear that whether I say "Fisher

25 Scientific" or "Thermo Scientific", I'm


1 referring to the company that you used to work

2 for that has continued in some corporate form

3 until today, all right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what about Edie Nataro, is she an

6 attorney?

7 A. I believe she's a paralegal.

8 Q. Does she work for Miss Ardman?

9 A. I don't know.

10 MR. WILLIAMS: Hartman.

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. Kathy Hartman. Have you spoken to

13 anyone else at Fisher Scientific?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Who else have you spoken to other than

16 Mr. Williams, Miss Hartman and Miss Nataro?

17 A. My wife.

18 Q. Okay. Was she a former Fisher

19 Scientific employee?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Have you spoken to a Marc

22 Gaffrey?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Has anyone raised the issue of a

25 potential conflict of interest to you?



2 THE WITNESS: No.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Williams in

5 addition to representing you here today --

6 actually let me back off.

7 Are you currently an employee of

8 Fisher?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When did you stop being an employee of

11 Thermo Fisher?

12 A. 1989.

13 Q. In addition to representing you today,

14 are you aware that Mr. Williams also represents

15 the company Thermo Fisher?


17 It's leading and calls for speculation. You can


19 THE WITNESS: I believe he is.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. Okay. Can you tell us the highest

22 level of education you completed?

23 A. I have a Bachelor of Science degree

24 from Duquesne University here in Pittsburgh,

25 Pennsylvania.


1 Q. Okay. And what year did you get that?

2 A. 1961.

3 Q. And what was your major?

4 A. Business administration.

5 Q. Did you have any minors that involved

6 scientific matters at all?

7 A. I may have had some basic chemistry.

8 Q. Okay. Do you consider yourself a

9 scientist?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Have you ever had an employment in

12 which the core of that employment was as a

13 scientist?


15 It's vague. You can answer if you understand.

16 THE WITNESS: No. I was never employed

17 as a scientist.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Okay. When did you start working at

20 Fisher Scientific?

21 A. February of 1972.

22 Q. What did you do between 1961 and 1972?

23 A. Well, I had other jobs before Fisher.

24 Q. Right. What did you do? Who did you

25 work for after college?


1 A. After college -- let me think for a

2 minute. After college for a few years I was a

3 salesman.

4 Q. Do you remember what company you were a

5 salesman for?

6 A. Yes. US Rubber Company and Hunt

7 Wesson.

8 Q. And what did you sell?

9 A. Hunt & Wesson was tomato products and

10 US Rubber Company is tires, golf balls,

11 mattresses, rubber products.

12 Q. To your knowledge did the products you

13 sold at either of those companies contain any

14 asbestos?


16 Calls for speculation. But you can answer.

17 THE WITNESS: No. I don't know

18 anything about that.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. Are those the two companies that you

21 worked for until 1972 or was there other

22 employment?

23 A. Other employment. I went to work in

24 the safety profession at Crum & Forster

25 Insurance Companies.


1 Q. Where are they?

2 A. Well, I worked in Pittsburgh. I don't

3 know where they're headquartered.

4 Q. What was your job at Crum & Forster?

5 A. Safety engineer.

6 Q. And what did that entail?

7 A. Performing safety inspections at

8 potential clients to see if they were a good

9 risk or a bad risk.

10 Q. A good risk or bad risk for --

11 A. Insurance.

12 Q. Okay. And what kind of training did

13 you have to perform with a safety -- were they

14 safety tests?

15 A. On-the-job training.

16 Q. And what kind of test did you perform

17 at these companies that wanted to be clients of

18 Crum & Forster Insurance?

19 A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean

20 by "test".

21 Q. What did you do when you would visit

22 these potential clients?

23 A. I physically went there and made an

24 inspection, a safety inspection.

25 Q. What kind of issues were you looking


1 for when you made safety inspections?

2 A. Many, many issues that all related to

3 safety. Many. Numerous.

4 Q. Did those issues ever relate to dust?

5 A. No.


7 It's vague.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. Did they relate to physical features

10 such as handrails or equipment and things like

11 that?

12 A. Sure.

13 Q. When you say you got on-the-job

14 training, who trained you?

15 A. My boss who was a safety engineer.

16 Q. Do you remember his name?

17 A. Yes, I do. Walter Betzler.

18 Q. And how long were you trained on the

19 job before you were permitted to go out by

20 yourself to any potential clients when you

21 worked for Crum & Forster Insurance?

22 A. I'm not sure.

23 Q. How many years did you work for them?

24 A. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Two

25 years probably.


1 Q. Okay. And do you remember about what

2 year you started working there?

3 A. I believe it was 1969.

4 Q. Was that the last job you had before

5 you went to work for Fisher?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. Then let's stay on this one

8 first. On-the-job training, was there any

9 component of that that included reading

10 materials?

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. What kind?

13 A. Safety materials.

14 Q. Safety materials of these potential

15 clients or safety materials generally?

16 A. Both.

17 Q. Did you -- did Crum & Forster ask you

18 to take any classes in safety when you got

19 there?

20 A. I can't recall, but I don't believe so.

21 Q. Was this your first experience as -- in

22 the safety profession?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you ever taken any classes in

25 safety engineering or safety generally?


1 A. Through the years, you mean?

2 Q. Sure. Ever.

3 A. Numerous.

4 Q. Okay. Did you ever take any before you

5 got to Fisher?

6 A. I'm not quite sure.

7 Q. Okay. When you were at -- when you

8 would visit someone, a potential client of Crum

9 & Forster, how long would you spend at any

10 potential client?

11 A. It depend on the size and the

12 complexity and the processes of the client.

13 Q. Could it be more than a day?

14 A. Sure.

15 Q. Could it be as little as an hour?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you ultimately get to make the

18 decision at Crum & Forster as to whether Crum &

19 Forster would accept --

20 A. I made the recommendation.

21 Q. You just have to let me finish the

22 question.

23 MR. WILLIAMS: You have to let him

24 finish the question.

25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. It's perfectly natural what you're

3 doing. You knew what I was going to say.

4 Did you ultimately make the call as to

5 whether the client, the potential client that

6 you visited, would become a Crum & Forster

7 client?

8 A. I made the recommendation to

9 underwriters.

10 Q. And they decided?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You said that you worked somewhere else

13 after Crum & Forster but before Fisher

14 Scientific. Where was that?

15 A. Koppers Company.

16 Q. Is that with a K?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What's the Koppers Company do?

19 A. I don't know what it does now.

20 Q. What did it do then?

21 A. When I worked there they -- chemical

22 plants, tar plants, coke oven batteries and

23 various other industrial plants.

24 Q. And what was your title there?

25 A. Division safety engineer.


1 Q. What division?

2 A. Organic materials.

3 Q. What did that mean -- what did organic

4 materials mean at Koppers Company?

5 A. Tar companies.

6 Q. Anything else?

7 A. Coke oven batteries. Anything

8 pertaining to chemicals.

9 Q. And what did you actually do on a

10 day-to-day basis at Koppers Company?

11 A. I inspected their plants to make sure

12 that they were in safe and good condition and

13 did everything in my power to prevent

14 occupational injuries and illnesses to Kopper

15 employees.

16 Q. How many divisions were there?

17 A. I don't recall. It was a big company.

18 Q. More than one then?

19 A. Sure.

20 Q. Did you have a boss there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Was there a head safety engineer

23 at Koppers Company at the time?

24 A. There were a couple.

25 Q. Did you report to one of those two?


1 A. No. I reported to the same person that

2 they reported to.

3 Q. You reported to somebody above the

4 safety engineers?

5 A. The department head, yes.

6 Q. What department was he head of?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 Q. Okay. Do you remember his name?

9 A. No.

10 Q. That's fine. When you inspected

11 plants, what were you looking for?

12 A. Well, again, that depended on the

13 complexity and the type of plant. Some things

14 are basic, like handrails, fire extinguishers,

15 first aid supplies, eyewash fountains, deluge

16 showers, training, accident investigation

17 training, first aid training, housekeeping.

18 Anything that pertained to safety.

19 Q. Did Koppers Company provide you with

20 any specialized training for the job?

21 A. I believe when I was at Koppers Company

22 I graduated I believe -- I'm a little bit

23 confused on dates. OSHA came in to being in

24 April of 1971, so when I was at Koppers Company

25 I went to an OSHA training academy.


1 Q. How long was that?

2 A. The course?

3 Q. Yes, sir.

4 A. Probably two weeks.

5 Q. And what subjects did you study?

6 A. OSHA compliance, OSHA standards.

7 Q. In what area?

8 A. In every area that OSHA had a standard

9 for.

10 Q. Other than being sent to an OSHA

11 training academy, did Koppers Company provide

12 you with any other education and safety?

13 A. I probably went to a number of courses

14 that were conducted by the Western Pennsylvania

15 Safety Council.

16 Q. You say "probably". What do you mean?

17 A. Well, I'm not sure. It's a long time

18 ago.

19 Q. Are you saying you're not sure you ever

20 went or you're not sure who you worked for when

21 you went?

22 A. No, I went. So I'm not sure maybe who

23 I worked for when I went.

24 Q. So it might have been Koppers and it

25 might have been a different employer?


1 A. It might have been Kopper and Fisher

2 both.

3 Q. And what did you study there at the

4 Western Pennsylvania Safety Council?

5 A. Well, it depended again. Accident

6 investigation, safety inspections, chemical

7 safety. Numerous.

8 Q. Did --

9 A. OSHA standards.

10 Q. Before OSHA came into being, when you

11 worked at Koppers Company against what standard

12 did you measure the conditions you would see at

13 a Koppers Company plant?

14 A. Before OSHA came into being --

15 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. It

16 assumes facts. But over my objection, you can

17 answer if you understand.

18 THE WITNESS: OSHA didn't make up

19 standards. OSHA became law and gathered

20 existing standards and made them law. So I went

21 by the existing standards.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. The existing standards for what topics?

24 A. All topics in safety.

25 Q. Okay. What connection did you have


1 with asbestos in safety while at Koppers

2 Company?


4 THE WITNESS: None.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. That was not an issue at Koppers

7 Company? You have to answer out loud.

8 A. No.

9 Q. That's the only thing -- I'm sorry, in

10 addition to uh-uh and uh-hum, while we are

11 videotaping you are going like this, you have to

12 answer out loud so she can write it down.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Prior to going to Fisher Scientific had

15 you ever in any of your previous employment had

16 to deal with any asbestos-related issues?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Prior to going to Fisher Scientific had

19 any of your employers ever provided you with any

20 training in any subjects related to asbestos?

21 A. I'm not sure. I don't think they did

22 because that wasn't an issue.

23 Q. What do you mean "that wasn't an

24 issue"?

25 A. In the company I worked for, it was not


1 an issue.

2 Q. Prior to -- excuse me, during your

3 undergraduate education at Duquesne, did you

4 take any classes that in any way related to

5 asbestos specifically?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you take any classes that related

8 in any way to toxic dusts?


10 It's vague. If you understand you can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: I'm not quite sure I

12 understand that question by what you mean "toxic

13 dust". Dust could be toxic to anybody if it

14 makes them sneeze.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. Okay. Did you take any courses that

17 dealt with dust that made people sneeze while at

18 Duquesne?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you take any courses that dealt

21 with dust in any way at Duquesne?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you take any courses that dealt

24 with any toxic materials at Duquesne, dust or

25 otherwise?


1 A. I believe I answered before that I took

2 basic chemistry at Duquesne.

3 Q. Is there anything about that course all

4 these years later that you remember more than

5 beyond generally?

6 A. No.

7 Q. That course, was that something you

8 used when you were at Koppers Company what you

9 learned in that chemistry class?

10 A. Generally.

11 Q. Did Koppers Company send you to any

12 classes to train you before they let you inspect

13 their plants?

14 A. It's hard to be specific about Koppers.

15 In the course of my safety career, I constantly

16 went to safety classes. Constantly.

17 Q. I think I'm asking something more

18 specific but apparently not well enough. You

19 testified that at the job you had before

20 Koppers, at Crum & Forster, your training was on

21 the job, correct?

22 A. Basically, yes.

23 Q. As opposed to a classroom-type

24 component, correct?



1 Q. When you got to Koppers, when you first

2 got there, was your training on the job from

3 somebody senior to you or was there a classroom

4 component before they would let you inspect

5 their plants?

6 A. Both. I believe -- I believe I

7 answered before I went to OSHA training academy

8 while at Koppers.

9 Q. And did that OSHA training have

10 anything to do with asbestos?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When you said before that it dealt with

13 all OSHA standards, did you mean all OSHA

14 standards that were relevant to Kopper Company

15 plants?

16 A. No. I meant all OSHA standards that

17 were law.

18 Q. Okay. So whenever you did this

19 training was before OSHA issued standards on

20 asbestos?


22 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Before you got to Fisher did you ever

25 get any training at all in asbestos?


1 A. No.

2 Q. Before you -- I asked you what

3 standards you tested against before OSHA

4 standards existed. Were the standards you

5 tested against that you told me were later

6 compiled into OSHA standards, were those written

7 down before the OSHA standards?

8 A. Oh, absolutely.

9 Q. And where were they written down?

10 A. In books, in book form. One of them is

11 the National Fire Protection Association

12 published standards.

13 Q. Were those private or governmental

14 standards; do you know?

15 A. Private.

16 Q. Were all the standards against which

17 you did your job before OSHA standards came into

18 being, were those all private standards?


20 Q. Did you receive any classroom-type

21 training on those standards before you had to

22 apply them at Koppers and Company?

23 A. Again, I went to numerous, numerous,

24 numerous classes during my career. And, you

25 know, I just don't remember exact dates.


1 Q. As you sit here, can you remember

2 whether or not you attended such classroom-type

3 training while still at Koppers and Company?

4 A. I think I did.

5 Q. You've stated that at Koppers and

6 Company none of the training was in asbestos.

7 Was there -- did you undergo any training in

8 dusts while at Koppers and Company?


10 It's vague. You can answer if you understand.

11 THE WITNESS: Specifically dust, no.

12 BY MR. HAKLAY:

13 Q. Did you receive training in accident

14 investigation?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. From whom?

17 A. Numerous agencies. Allegany County

18 Bomb Threat, Pittsburgh Fire Department, Western

19 Pennsylvania Safety Council.

20 Q. When you were at Koppers did you

21 receive any certifications?

22 A. I don't know if you call them

23 certifications. I certainly received diplomas

24 from completing the courses.

25 Q. Were you a certified safety inspector?


1 A. CSP, no.

2 Q. Have you ever been a certified safety

3 inspector?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Have you ever attempted to take

6 whatever course work or testing as required to

7 become a certified safety inspector?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I take it that none of your employers

10 ever required you to do so, correct?

11 A. No, they did not.

12 Q. When you were at Koppers were all the

13 plants you were in charge of inspecting, were

14 they all in the Greater Pittsburgh area?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How far afield did you get to travel?

17 A. Well, I went to Minneapolis/St. Paul to

18 coke oven batteries. I went to Youngstown, Ohio

19 to a tar plant.

20 Q. Wherever your division had plants you

21 went?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And how long would you spend at these

24 plants doing your inspections?

25 A. Depending on the size and the


1 complexity of the plant.

2 Q. At the bigger plants.

3 A. Three, four days.

4 Q. Okay. Did each of those plants have

5 safety personnel of their own?

6 A. They had -- each of those plants had

7 people responsible for safety, yes.

8 Q. Someone whose job title included

9 safety?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Are those the people you corresponded

12 with and met with when you went there?

13 A. I corresponded and met with many people

14 when I went there. Department heads, those

15 people.

16 Q. Was there someone from each of these

17 plants --

18 MR. WILLIAMS: Did you finish your

19 answer?

20 MR. HAKLAY: I thought he had. Had you

21 finished, sir?

22 MR. WILLIAMS: No.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Continue, please.

25 A. Let's say that the tar plant had a


1 consulting physician who -- I might meet with

2 him or her. So I met with numerous people. I

3 might meet with the local fire department. I

4 might meet depending on -- with the local bomb

5 threat people. If it was a plant where we

6 received a bomb threat, I'd talk to bomb threat

7 authorities. So I met with numerous people.

8 Q. Was there a person at each of these

9 plants who was the person responsible for

10 keeping in contact with you when you were not at

11 the plants?

12 A. Sure.

13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just going to

14 object. It's vague and compound. But if you

15 understand what's being asked you can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: If someone at the plant

17 had safety duties, yes, they stayed in touch

18 with me.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. Okay. To your knowledge did any of the

21 plants that you oversaw safety at, were there

22 any certified safety inspectors?

23 A. To my knowledge, no.

24 Q. I probably said that wrong. Were there

25 any certified safety professionals?



2 Q. Above you hierarchically at Koppers

3 Company, were there any certified safety

4 professionals?


6 Q. Was Koppers Company the last job you

7 had before you went to Fisher Scientific?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you went to Fisher Scientific,

10 what year was it?

11 A. February of 1972.

12 Q. And where was -- where physically was

13 your work site?

14 A. Headquarters, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

15 Q. When you were hired at Fisher

16 Scientific, what was your job title at first?

17 A. Corporate safety director.

18 Q. To whom did you report?

19 A. Executive vice president of human

20 resources.

21 Q. Was that person in the -- the executive

22 vice president of human resources, was that

23 person someone whose duties included safety?

24 A. Yes. In those days most safety

25 professionals reported to human resources.


1 Q. Was -- who was the executive vice

2 president when you first started?

3 A. Gordon Robinson Scott.

4 Q. That's a long name. Did Mr. Scott --

5 was Mr. Scott a certified safety professional?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you report to anybody else above

8 you other than Mr. Scott?

9 A. He was my direct report.

10 Q. Okay. To your knowledge was anybody

11 above Mr. Scott a certified safety professional?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you have people under you to -- who

14 reported to you when you first got to Fisher?

15 A. No. Well, if -- let me rephrase that.

16 No.

17 Q. Go ahead, sir.

18 A. If a person at one of Fisher's plants

19 also had safety responsibility, he or she

20 indirectly reported to me as it pertained to

21 safety, so they had both a direct report and an

22 indirect report.

23 Q. Now, you said that you stayed at Fisher

24 until I think you said 1989 or 1988.

25 A. 1989.


1 Q. Did you retire at that point?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Where did you go after that?

4 A. I became in charge of safety and

5 numerous other disciplines at the Port Authority

6 of Allegany County.

7 Q. And how long did you work there?

8 A. Seven years.

9 Q. Until about 1996?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you retire at that point or did

12 you take another job?

13 A. Well, I retired from Fisher, I retired

14 from the Port Authority, but I also took another

15 job.

16 Q. What other job did you take after your

17 second retirement?

18 A. I became a safety consultant.

19 Q. Did you work for somebody else or did

20 you have your own company?

21 A. I worked for somebody else, a small

22 consulting firm.

23 Q. What was it called?

24 A. Three Rivers Area Labor Management

25 Committee.


1 Q. That rolls right off the tongue, sir.

2 And what did you do in that role?

3 A. What I did with all the other

4 companies, only I did it with clients.

5 Q. And how long did you stay at the Three

6 Rivers Area Labor Management Committee?

7 A. I'm not sure. I'm going to say two

8 years.

9 Q. Until approximately 1998 or so?

10 A. Approximately. I'm not quite sure.

11 Q. At that point did you retire for a

12 third time?

13 A. No retirement. I just left there. No

14 retirement.

15 Q. Did you continue working?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did you do?

18 A. I became the in-house safety consultant

19 for the Western Pennsylvania Safety Council.

20 Q. Now, you mentioned them a little

21 earlier, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That's another one answering out loud

24 things. And, I'm sorry, because I was writing,

25 in-house safety professional did you say or --


1 what did you say?

2 A. A consultant.

3 Q. Okay. Did you work for the Western

4 Pennsylvania Safety Council?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And how long did you do that?

7 A. Until they went bankrupt.

8 Q. In what year was that approximately?

9 A. I'm going to say I worked there two,

10 three years, and they went bankrupt.

11 Q. 2000, 2001, something like that?

12 A. Something like that.

13 Q. Did you take another job after that?

14 A. Sort of did a little work on my own,

15 yes.

16 Q. Okay. Shockingly, I don't know what

17 that means. What does that mean?

18 A. People knew me and knew of me and they

19 would call me and ask me to perform some safety

20 duties for them and I would do that.

21 Q. When you say "safety duties", is that

22 different from consulting?

23 A. Well, it depends. They might say, we

24 need a building evacuation procedure, and I'd

25 write them one.


1 Q. Did you become employees of these

2 entities or were you just --

3 A. No.


5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. -- or were you just employed to do a

7 specific task for them?


9 Calls for a legal conclusion. But you can


11 THE WITNESS: I did consulting work for

12 people that sought me out.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. Did you form your own company or did

15 you just --

16 A. No. I just did it.

17 Q. Okay. Are these people you all knew

18 from your previous work?

19 A. Mostly, yes. Or people that heard

20 about my experience.

21 Q. Okay. And are you still doing that

22 kind of private consulting work on your own?

23 A. No, I'm not.

24 Q. When did you stop doing it?

25 A. I'm not sure of dates.


1 Q. Was it this year, last year?

2 A. Oh, no. It was a few years ago.

3 Q. And when you stopped doing that a few

4 years ago, did you retire for the last time?

5 A. Yes and no. Yes, I did.

6 Q. But no --

7 A. But every once in a great while one of

8 these customers would call me up and ask me to

9 do something for them, and being the type of

10 person I am, I did it.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Sometimes for a fee, sometimes gratis.

13 Q. Okay. Back before you stopped doing it

14 full time, were you doing it for a fee?

15 A. When I was a consultant, the consulting

16 firm got the fee.

17 Q. After you went out on your own but

18 before you just do it occasionally like now --

19 A. When I went out on my own, I got the

20 fee.

21 Q. You charged a fee, though?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. So on February 1972 -- strike

24 that. Pretend I didn't say that.

25 In February of 1972 when you were hired


1 by Fisher Scientific, how many production plants

2 did Fisher Scientific have?

3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. You

4 can answer if you know.

5 THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly. I

6 can approximate.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. Approximately how many?

9 A. Probably 26 warehouses in the United

10 States, maybe five manufacturing plants in the

11 United States, one warehouse in San Juan, Puerto

12 Rico, maybe approximately six or seven locations

13 in Canada.

14 Q. Were things being made, built, produced

15 in Canada or were they just warehouses where

16 products were stored?

17 A. In Canada probably where products were

18 stored.

19 Q. The five manufacturing plants, were you

20 in charge of safety at all of them?

21 A. I was in charge of safety in the entire

22 corporation.

23 Q. So everything you just listed, be it a

24 warehouse or a manufacturing plant, you were the

25 person that people went to at those plants or


1 warehouses with issues of safety, correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Did you have any assistants?

4 A. In later years I had a full-time

5 assistant at Fisher.

6 Q. When did that start?

7 A. 1981, when we were purchased by Allied

8 Signal Corporation.

9 Q. Did your office remain in the same

10 place?

11 A. My office?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is that it, you only had one assistant

15 over all those years?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was -- what was that person's name?

18 A. Mike Horvath.

19 Q. Was Mr. Horvath a certified safety

20 professional?

21 A. He was a safety professional. I don't

22 know whether he was certified.

23 May I say something about

24 certification?

25 MR. WILLIAMS: Sure.


1 MR. HAKLAY: Sure. Tell me what you

2 want to say about certification.

3 THE WITNESS: Certification was nothing

4 more than an agency who wanted to make money.

5 So to test you and charge you and certify you,

6 most older safety professionals like myself did

7 not think it was necessary and didn't go through

8 the trouble to get a CSP after their name.

9 In fact, one time I wrote the State of

10 Pennsylvania and said these certified safety

11 professionals report to me. I have this

12 experience.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. What certified safety professionals

15 reported to you?

16 A. At Port Authority, the doctor.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. He was considered a CSP by the State of

19 Pennsylvania because he had an MD degree.

20 Q. That automatically qualified you with a

21 CSP without testing?

22 A. What qualified me accepted by the state

23 of Pennsylvania was my experience.

24 Q. I'm sorry, I misstated my question.

25 The medical doctor automatically was a


1 CSP because of his training as a doctor?

2 A. I don't know if he was automatically a

3 CSP, but he was automatically accepted to teach

4 certain courses because he was a doctor.

5 Q. What areas did the certification for

6 safety professionals organization test people on

7 before issuing -- taking money and issuing

8 certification?

9 A. I don't know. We didn't believe

10 that -- we safety professionals didn't believe

11 we were engineers.

12 Q. Who's "we"?

13 A. All of us.

14 Q. Who's that?

15 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let him finish his

16 answer. You can go ahead and finish your

17 answer.

18 THE WITNESS: I probably knew hundreds

19 of safety professionals. So all of them.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. You didn't know any one certified

22 safety professional?

23 A. Yes. I knew certified safety

24 professionals and I knew people like me that

25 learned through experience.


1 Q. Did you know any certified safety

2 professionals who were required to gain

3 certification for their jobs?


5 Calls for speculation. But if you know you can

6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know that.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. So you don't know whether the certified

10 safety professionals you knew just decided to do

11 it on their own or whether their job required

12 it; is that correct?

13 A. Some of them I did know decided to do

14 it on their own because they wanted a CSP after

15 their name.

16 Q. During your 17 years or so at Fisher

17 did your job title ever change from corporate

18 safety director?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When?

21 A. I'm not sure of the year. Beginning in

22 19 -- well, beginning in 1986 when Allied Signal

23 sold Fisher, we went through a metamorphosis so

24 to speak where investors purchased us and then

25 dumped us and then someone else purchased us, so


1 then I became in charge of safety for two other

2 companies. So my title changed to manager of

3 Fisher Scientific -- manager of safety, Fisher

4 Scientific Group.

5 Q. Okay. Between 1972 and 1986 did your

6 title change?

7 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

8 Q. Between 1986 and 1989, when you retired

9 for the first time, did your title change from

10 manager of safety, Fisher Scientific Group?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me object to the

13 form. It misstates facts. But go ahead and

14 answer if you understand.

15 THE WITNESS: There were a few months

16 or a -- again, I don't know dates -- that I -- I

17 interviewed my replacement. So, yes, there was

18 a few months at Fisher where I just concentrated

19 on safety products, promoting safety products,

20 so it was more or less a marketing-type job.

21 BY MR. HAKLAY:

22 Q. Did your title officially change or did

23 you just take on different responsibilities

24 because you were hiring and training your

25 replacement?


1 A. Both.

2 Q. It wasn't a demotion of any kind,

3 though?

4 A. Oh, absolutely not.

5 Q. When you became manager of safety,

6 Fisher Scientific Group, did your

7 responsibilities change other than the fact that

8 the number of entities you were responsible for

9 increased?

10 A. No. That was about it.

11 Q. Okay. So your title changed but your

12 job remained the same except --

13 A. Basically except --

14 Q. Harder?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. WILLIAMS: Just let him finish his

17 answer before you ask another question.

18 Are you done with your answer?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe so.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. When you started at Fisher Scientific

22 in 1972, did the company have an industrial

23 hygienist on staff?

24 A. No. To my knowledge, no.

25 Q. During your 17 years at Fisher


1 Scientific did the company ever have an

2 industrial hygienist on staff?

3 A. I don't believe so.

4 Q. When you started --

5 A. There might have been someone who had

6 industrial hygiene experience at our chemical

7 plant in Fair Lawn, New Jersey, I don't know.

8 Q. Okay. So when you say there might have

9 been, do you have any knowledge that there was?

10 A. No. There might have been.


12 in 1972, did Fisher Scientific employ a medical

13 doctor?

14 A. As an employee?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. Did Fisher Scientific have a medical

18 department in 1972?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did Fisher Scientific have a medical

21 department in 1989 when you left?

22 A. Yes and no. I hired a doctor to be our

23 medical consultant.

24 Q. When was that?

25 A. Again, I don't know dates. Towards the


1 end of my career at Fisher.

2 Q. Was that person an employee of Fisher

3 Scientific?

4 A. No.


6 in 1972, you mentioned five -- approximately

7 five manufacturing plants. What did Fisher

8 Scientific manufacture at those plants?


10 It's compound. Vague. But if you understand

11 you can answer.

12 THE WITNESS: In one they manufactured

13 laboratory furniture.

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.

16 A. Was the basic product.

17 Q. Where was that?

18 A. Indiana, Pennsylvania.

19 Q. Go ahead, please.

20 A. Fair Lawn, New Jersey manufactured

21 laboratory chemicals. EMD in Chicago

22 manufactured educational materials division

23 products.

24 Q. What kind of material -- what did they

25 produce there?


1 A. Maybe a skeleton the kids could study

2 in school.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Then at one time we bought a frog farm

5 so they collected frogs and did sell them to

6 labs for dissection.

7 Q. Okay. Where else did you have --

8 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him finish his

9 answer, Counsel.

10 MR. HAKLAY: He was finished.

11 MR. WILLIAMS: He wasn't finished.

12 THE WITNESS: We bought a company

13 called Pfeiffer Glass in Rochester, New York and

14 they manufactured glass pipettes.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. For lab work?

17 A. Yes. So basically that was the

18 manufacturing locations. And then later on we

19 started a manufacturing plant in Mountain Home,

20 Arkansas. So, again, we had five or six or four

21 or five manufacturing plants and they all had to

22 do with laboratory products.

23 Q. What did you make in Mountain Home,

24 Arkansas?

25 A. Some of the products that we also made


1 in Indiana, fume hoods and laboratory furniture,

2 tables, desk, file cabinets.

3 Q. Just for my education, is a fume hood

4 considered laboratory furniture?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 Q. Okay. When you first got to Fisher

7 Scientific, did they require you to attend any

8 classroom-type training in any subject?

9 A. If I went to Fisher Scientific when I

10 was there and said there's a class coming up, I

11 would like to attend it, they'd say go. So

12 again, I attended educational classes in safety

13 for most of my career and then I ended up

14 teaching them.

15 Q. When you first went to Fisher

16 Scientific, did they require you to attend any

17 particular safety education classes in order for

18 you to get the job?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When you first started at Fisher

21 Scientific in 1972, was Fisher Scientific

22 putting out catalogs of products to potential

23 companies or consumers?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did it do so during the entire 17 or so


1 years that you worked for them?

2 A. I believe so, yes.

3 Q. What role, if any, did you have with

4 regards to the catalogs?

5 A. I'd make sure we were using the proper

6 language.

7 Q. What does that mean?

8 A. Well, if Fisher wanted to say, "Our

9 fire extinguisher is OSHA approved," and I'd say

10 "No, it isn't. OSHA doesn't approve products."

11 Q. Did you do that in 1972?

12 A. I don't recall. Probably.

13 Q. When you just said that about fire

14 extinguishers, were you making up an example to

15 give me an example or did that ever actually

16 happen?

17 A. I don't know if it was fire

18 extinguishers, but it actually happened where

19 marketing-type, advertising-type people said

20 OSHA approved, yes.

21 Q. Were you -- for the first nine years

22 until Mike Horvath came to work for you, were

23 you the entire safety department?

24 A. We had people at each location that had

25 safety responsibilities who indirectly reported


1 to me on matters of safety.

2 Q. In the corporate offices were you the

3 entire safety department?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were there ever any industrial

6 hygienists employed at the manufacturing plants

7 by those plants?


9 Q. Okay. Did those plants, manufacturing

10 plants, ever employ medical doctors?

11 A. When needed -- as an employee, no. But

12 when needed, yes. We sold to hospitals all

13 across the world so we were constantly

14 consulting with medical doctors if necessary.

15 Q. For purposes of marketing and sales?

16 A. For purposes of employee safety and

17 health, for purposes of laboratory products, for

18 medical purposes.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. If --

21 Q. When -- go ahead.

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Go ahead. You can

23 finish your answer.

24 THE WITNESS: If you were an employee,

25 a valuable employee, and you come down with a


1 mysterious illness, the morality of Fisher

2 Scientific Company, they would get you in touch

3 with the appropriate-type doctor. So we

4 constantly interfaced with medical personnel.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. When you say "employee safety and

7 health", are you talking about Fisher Scientific

8 employees?

9 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. I'm

10 not -- I think it assumes facts. If you

11 understand what's being asked, you can answer,

12 or ask for it to be rephrased if you don't.

13 THE WITNESS: When I first started with

14 Fisher Scientific, I was concerned and they were

15 concerned with Fisher employees. It evolved

16 into laboratory customer, employees also, so

17 both.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Okay. You said that on occasion or at

20 times Fisher hired doctors or consulted with

21 them or -- not as employees but used medical

22 doctors for what you said was employee safety

23 and health. The use of those doctors, was that

24 for the safety and health of Fisher Scientific

25 employees or is it not limited just to that?


1 A. Not limited just to that. We used

2 doctors when we needed medical advice,

3 consultation and service.

4 Q. Other than employee safety and health,

5 who outside of Fisher Scientific employees did

6 you use medical doctors for?


8 It's been asked and answered. But you can

9 answer it again.

10 THE WITNESS: If a valuable customer

11 said to me, we need an answer in pathology --

12 I'm using this as an example -- I'd refer him to

13 a pathologist.

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. Did you --

16 A. I spent my career at Fisher interfacing

17 with medical people.

18 Q. I'm trying to figure out whether Fisher

19 actually employed the pathologist --

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. Let me finish the sentence, please.

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him get his question

23 out as well.

24 BY MR. HAKLAY:

25 Q. I know you know where I'm going. But


1 that way she can write it down.

2 A. Excuse me.

3 Q. Did Fisher Scientific actually employ

4 someone like a pathologist or were you just

5 referring good customers to help that they were

6 asking you for?

7 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me offer an

8 objection to the extent that the question seeks

9 a legal conclusion regarding employment that's

10 objectionable. But if you understand you can

11 answer.

12 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. I

13 don't know how we remunerated the doctor.

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. Well, did you actually say, "we'd like

16 to employ you" to doctors and "we'd --

17 A. No.

18 Q. -- like to refer you to our customer

19 and help them"?

20 A. No, I never said we would like to

21 employ you.

22 Q. When you would refer a good customer to

23 some kind of medical professional, be it a

24 doctor or a specialist like a pathologist

25 because they asked you for help, would you pay


1 those doctors or were you just a referral to a

2 good customer?

3 A. I don't know. I don't know about

4 remuneration things.

5 Q. You didn't arrange for remuneration in

6 any case, correct?

7 A. No, no.

8 Q. At any of the over-the-years five

9 manufacturing plants you listed here today, were

10 asbestos-containing items produced in any of

11 them?


13 Calls for speculation. But you can answer.

14 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. Was there asbestos used in the fume

17 hoods?

18 A. There might have been questions at one

19 time about asbestos lining in a fume hood. I

20 don't have any concrete knowledge of did we put

21 asbestos products in the fume hood. I can't

22 answer that.

23 Q. Do you know anyone who would have that

24 knowledge?

25 A. Yes. A fume hood expert.


1 Q. A fume hood expert who was employed by

2 Fisher Scientific or a fume hood expert

3 generally?

4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. The

5 question assumes facts. If you understand

6 what's about being asked, you can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: I don't quite understand.

8 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. Why don't we change

9 the tape now.

10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the

11 record. This is the end of tape one of this

12 deposition.

13 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken

14 from 11:07 a.m. to 11:17 a.m.)

15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the

16 beginning of tape two in today's deposition.

17 The time now is 11:17 a.m. and we're back on the

18 record.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. Good morning, again, Mr. Reilly.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Are you ready to go?

23 A. Sure.

24 Q. Did Fisher Scientific ever have a

25 manufacturing plant in the State of Indiana or


1 only in the Town or City of Indiana,

2 Pennsylvania?

3 A. Indiana, Pennsylvania.

4 Q. I just want to clarify something that

5 we were talking about just before we took our

6 break at the end of the first tape. As you sit

7 here today, do you recall whether the fume hoods

8 produced in Indiana, Pennsylvania and possibly

9 in Mountain Home, Arkansas contained asbestos?


11 Asked and answered.

12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall.

13 MR. WILLIAMS: But you can answer.

14 THE WITNESS: No.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. As you sit here today, do you recall

17 any correspondence to or from anybody in the

18 plant in Indiana, Pennsylvania relating to

19 asbestos that was contained in the fume hoods?

20 A. Specifically, I do not recall. No.

21 Q. Have you reviewed any documents before

22 your deposition here today?

23 A. What kind of documents?

24 Q. I don't know. Have you reviewed

25 anything?


1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you -- did you know Robert Forte?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How did you know Mr. Forte?

5 A. We were both employees at Fisher

6 Scientific.

7 Q. Were you friends with Mr. Forte?

8 A. I didn't pal around with him. But yes,

9 we were friendly.

10 Q. After you left Fisher Scientific did

11 you remain friendly with Mr. Forte?

12 A. No. Never saw him.

13 Q. So the last time you would have seen

14 him was about the time you left the company?

15 A. I may have seen him in the office the

16 other day. It looked like him.

17 Q. What office?

18 A. At Fisher.

19 Q. You visited Fisher's office the other

20 day?

21 A. That's where I park. I didn't want to

22 drive here because it's too confusing for me.

23 Q. Oh, okay. Why did you park there the

24 other day?

25 A. To talk to an old employee friend of


1 mine, Kathy Logerman.

2 Q. Was she or is she an attorney?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Was she there in 1972?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was her job?

7 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

8 Q. Was she in the safety field in any way?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Your visit with Miss Logerman, was that

11 for purposes of preparing for today or was that

12 entirely personal?

13 A. She has nothing to do with today. It

14 was personal.

15 Q. Okay. Is there any other reason you

16 went to the offices of Fisher Scientific the

17 other day?

18 A. No. Maybe to discuss the upcoming

19 deposition.

20 Q. Who did you discuss it with?

21 A. Prior to today I talked to

22 Mr. Williams.

23 Q. Right. Who did you discuss it with the

24 other day when you were at Fisher Scientific's

25 offices?


1 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to

2 the form. It's vague. You're saying "the other

3 day".

4 Do you understand what's being asked,

5 the time frame?

6 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't really there

7 the other day. Prior to today I spoke with

8 Mr. Williams at the Fisher office.

9 BY MR. HAKLAY:

10 Q. Do you recall testifying a couple of

11 minutes ago that you were at -- you parked your

12 car in Fisher Scientific's parking lot the other

13 day?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I'm confused now, no.

17 Q. When did you go visit Kathy Logerman at


19 A. I don't know which day. Recently.

20 Q. Within the last two weeks?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who else did you speak with other than

23 Kathy Logerman when you were there?

24 A. A young lady there named Edie.

25 Q. Is Edie an attorney?


1 A. No.

2 Q. Did your discussion with Edie have

3 anything to do with preparation for today's

4 deposition?

5 A. No.

6 Q. While at Fisher Scientific sometime in

7 the last two weeks, did you review any documents

8 whatsoever?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Have you, other than within the last

11 two weeks, visited Fisher Scientific's offices

12 for personal visits?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was this the first time in 20 years

15 you've been there?

16 A. First time I've ever been to that

17 building, period.

18 Q. Is that a new building?

19 A. It's new to me.

20 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Other than your

21 attorney, did you discuss this deposition with

22 anybody?

23 A. No. My wife and my attorney and

24 myself.

25 Q. Have you been shown documents by


1 anybody?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How about this morning?

4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. How

5 about this morning what?

6 Do you understand the question?

7 THE WITNESS: Not really. I mean --

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. I can rephrase it, sir.

10 A. We talked this morning. Naturally, we

11 talked about --

12 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm instructing you not

13 to discuss -- don't testify to what we've talked

14 about.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. Right. Did you meet with your attorney

17 this morning?

18 A. I had breakfast with him.

19 Q. Okay. How long were you together this

20 morning before you came in here for this

21 deposition with him?

22 A. Forty minutes.

23 Q. During that 40 minutes were you shown

24 any documents?

25 A. No.


1 Q. Were there documents on the table?

2 A. There were papers on the table.

3 Q. Did those papers relate to Fisher

4 Scientific documents from the past?

5 A. Those papers related to me.

6 Q. What does that mean?

7 A. My background.

8 Q. What were they, those papers?

9 A. I guess my resume.

10 Q. Was there a pile of papers about as

11 thick as this document? I'm looking at, an

12 inch, inch and a half, whatever this is on the

13 table in front of you.

14 A. I don't know. I didn't look at that.

15 Q. Were you shown documents Fisher

16 Scientific -- strike that.

17 Were you shown any Fisher Scientific

18 documents that were either written by you or

19 written to you or in which you were cc'd?

20 A. We discussed prior correspondence --

21 Q. I didn't ask what you discussed.

22 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to instruct

23 you not to talk about what we talked about. But

24 you can testify to anything you saw, but you

25 can't talk about what you and I might have


1 discussed because there's a privilege to that,

2 okay?

3 THE WITNESS: Uh-hum.

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. Were you shown any such documents this

6 morning?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. And were they documents from

9 when you were employed by Fisher Scientific?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And was your name on some of those

12 documents?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were there others that did not have

15 your name?


17 Q. And were some of those documents from

18 the 1970s?

19 A. I believe so.

20 Q. Were all of those documents from the

21 1970s?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Other than in the 1970s, between then

24 and this morning, had you ever seen those

25 documents?



2 the form. It's compound. Vague. If you

3 understand you can answer it.

4 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the

5 question.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. I'm assuming that if your name was on a

8 letter or a memo sometime in the 1970s --

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. -- that you probably saw it if you

11 wrote it?

12 MR. WILLIAMS: Saw it when? Object to

13 the form. Vague.

14 THE WITNESS: I probably saw it when I

15 wrote it.

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. Right. And if it was a letter or a

18 memo written to you, that you probably saw it

19 back then when it was produced and sent to you,

20 correct?

21 A. Back then, sure.

22 Q. Between the time that these documents

23 you saw this morning when they were originally

24 produced, in the 1970s let's say, and this

25 morning, did you ever see any of those


1 documents?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In the last three weeks have you seen

4 any of those documents?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How long ago did you find out that your

7 deposition had been noticed that you would have

8 to give a deposition?

9 A. I don't remember the date when the

10 sheriff showed up and rang my doorbell.

11 Q. Was it more than a couple of months

12 ago?

13 A. Oh, no.

14 Q. Within the last two months?

15 A. Oh, yes.

16 Q. Okay. After the sheriff rang your

17 doorbell, did you contact anyone concerning what

18 the sheriff gave you?

19 A. I believe I talked to Mr. Williams and

20 said I received --


22 you not to discuss what you said to me. You can

23 indicate that you contacted me but not what you

24 said.

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. How is it that you knew to contact

2 Mr. Williams?

3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. Can

4 you rephrase it, Counsel? I just don't want to

5 invoke the privilege.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Well, okay. You said you contacted

8 Mr. Williams after the sheriff delivered

9 something to your door, correct?

10 A. That's what I said, correct.

11 Q. Right. How is it that you knew to call

12 Mr. Williams specifically?

13 A. Because I knew he was going to

14 represent Fisher Scientific.

15 Q. How did you know that?

16 A. Somebody at Fisher Scientific told me

17 that.

18 Q. Okay. Did you call somebody at the

19 company here in Pittsburgh who referred you to

20 Mr. Williams?

21 A. I talked to somebody in Pittsburgh,

22 yes.

23 Q. Who did you call in Pittsburgh at


25 A. Kathy Hartman.


1 Q. And I think you told me you believe she

2 was she an attorney?

3 A. I believe she is.

4 Q. And you knew her previous to the

5 sheriff coming to your door?

6 A. No, never met her. In fact, I still

7 haven't met her.

8 Q. When you got this document through the

9 sheriff, did you make the decision to call


11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you ask for an attorney?

13 A. I asked for Kathy Hartman.

14 Q. How did you know her name?

15 A. I talked to her prior. Never met her.

16 Q. Did you talk to her prior concerning

17 this matter, this deposition or other matters?

18 A. This matter.

19 Q. Okay. When the sheriff came to your

20 door, did you already know that somebody was

21 going to request your deposition be taken?

22 A. No, not really. No.

23 Q. But you had a discussion prior to the

24 sheriff coming to your door with Miss Hartman?

25 A. I talked to her on the phone, yes.


1 Q. Concerning this case?


3 the form. I'm instructing you not to answer

4 about the content of any communications you've

5 had with Kathy Hartman.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. How did you know to call Miss Hartman

8 before the sheriff ever came to your door?


10 the form to the extent it invokes the privilege.

11 Perhaps, Counsel, you can rephrase it. I mean

12 this is getting unnecessarily complicated, I

13 think, for no purpose and I think you're

14 confusing the witness a little bit. But if you

15 want to rephrase it just to not invoke the

16 privilege.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. Are you confused, sir, about my

19 question? Because I will rephrase it if you

20 want.

21 A. Yes, I am a little confused. Yes.

22 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm a little confused.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. You'll tell me if I'm wrong. At some

25 point a sheriff came to your door, correct?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Subsequent to that you called

3 Miss Hartman at Fisher Scientific, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Subsequent to that you got

6 Mr. Williams' name or because of that you got

7 Mr. Williams' name and you've been in contact

8 with Mr. Williams, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Before the sheriff ever came to your

11 door, did you have contact with Miss Hartman?

12 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. I'm going to

13 object. It's asked and answered. But you can

14 answer it again.

15 THE WITNESS: I'm going to back up.

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. Feel free.

18 A. I've had three phone calls. Maybe one

19 of them from you. I don't recall.

20 Q. It was not from me, but that's okay. I

21 know what you're talking about?

22 MR. WILLIAMS: It might be somebody

23 from your office.

24 MR. HAKLAY: It was just not from me

25 personally.


1 THE WITNESS: I received three phone

2 calls from a law firm I believe in New Jersey

3 who are representing the plaintiff. And after

4 the third phone call, it became in my opinion

5 harassment.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Is that when you called Miss Hartman?


9 answer.

10 MR. HAKLAY: I did.

11 MR. WILLIAMS: No, you didn't. Go

12 ahead and finish.

13 MR. HAKLAY: Go ahead, sir.

14 THE WITNESS: That's when I decided I'm

15 being harassed by some law firm about something

16 that I knew nothing about that may have happened

17 35 years ago, and I'm 75 years old and I don't

18 deserve this, so I called the legal department

19 at Fisher Scientific to tell them I think I'm

20 being harassed.

21 BY MR. HAKLAY:

22 Q. Okay. Now I understand exactly how you

23 reached out -- why you reached out to

24 Miss Hartman because you previously reached out

25 to her, correct?


1 A. Correct.

2 Q. When you were phoned by somebody

3 connected with my firm, did they ask to speak to

4 you about issues related to asbestos at Fisher

5 Scientific?


7 you can answer.

8 THE WITNESS: I have it written down at

9 home exactly what they asked me. I don't

10 remember. I have to go home and look at it. I

11 have the date, the time of the phone call and

12 what they asked me.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. Okay. As you sit here without those

15 notes of yours, are you saying that you do not

16 remember whether the person from my firm who

17 called you on the phone asked to speak about

18 asbestos at Fisher Scientific?

19 A. No, I do not remember that. I believe

20 they asked me -- there's a suit being filed and

21 we would just like to talk to you.

22 Q. And did you express to that person that

23 you didn't wish to talk to them?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And subsequent to however many calls,


1 you called Miss Hartman?

2 A. Yes. I called the legal department at

3 Thermo Fisher and that's who I talked to.

4 Q. Okay. Is that the first time you ever

5 spoke to Miss Hartman?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you for clearing that up. Back

8 to 1972, all right? Back in 1972, when you

9 first started, what was your role with regards

10 to production of the catalog at Fisher

11 Scientific?

12 A. When I first started my role was to

13 make sure that Fisher Scientific Company was in

14 compliance with OSHA standards. It had nothing

15 to do with the catalog.

16 Q. Did you have any responsibilities or

17 take any responsibilities as concerns to the

18 catalog in 1972 when you first got to Fisher

19 Scientific?


21 Q. To your knowledge did you review the

22 proposed catalog for 1973 before it was mailed,

23 I assume, all over the world?

24 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me get my objection.

25 Object to the form. It's vague. But if you


1 understand what's being asked, you can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. Did there ever come a time when as

5 director of safety -- was that your title?

6 A. Corporate safety director.

7 Q. Thank you. Did there ever come a time

8 when as corporate safety director part of your

9 job was to review the proposed catalog before it

10 was sent out to potential customers?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were you ever asked to do that by

13 anybody above you at Fisher Scientific?


15 Vague. But you can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. I

17 probably got involved occasionally with the

18 catalog because of my foresight in safety. I

19 probably brought it on.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. You probably initiated it, you're

22 saying?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you do that every year or just

25 sometimes?


1 A. I don't recall that.

2 Q. Do you remember the first year that you

3 ever looked at the proposed catalog --

4 A. No.

5 Q. Let me finish my question.

6 MR. WILLIAMS: It works both ways. You

7 have to let him finish.

8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I didn't mean

9 it.

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. That's okay. Don't worry about it.

12 That's the way conversation works. It's an

13 unnatural process, okay?

14 Do you recall the first year that you

15 reviewed a proposed catalog before it was sent

16 out to consumers?


18 Assumes facts and mischaracterizes the witness's

19 testimony. But you can answer.

20 THE WITNESS: No, no.

21 BY MR. HAKLAY:

22 Q. Do you recall ever reviewing an entire

23 catalog or proposed catalog before it was sent

24 out to consumers?

25 A. I don't believe I ever reviewed an


1 entire proposed catalog.

2 Q. These catalogs could be hundreds or

3 thousands of pages long, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At least hundreds, if not thousands --

6 A. I wouldn't be capable.

7 Q. With at least hundreds of thousands of

8 products, correct? Hundreds or thousands of

9 products, correct?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Did you ever instruct anybody at any

12 plant or warehouse to review proposed catalogs

13 before they were produced to consumers?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was that topic ever discussed by your

16 superiors at Fisher Scientific with you?


18 That topic is vague.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. Let me be more specific. Did anybody

21 above you at Fisher Scientific ever discuss with

22 you the subject of whether you should or could

23 review proposed catalogs before they're sent to

24 consumers?



1 Q. Do you recall any documents on the

2 subject of your superiors and you discussing the

3 subject of whether you should review proposed

4 catalogs before they're sent out to consumers?


6 Assumes facts. But you can answer if you know.

7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Again,

8 something that I believe I said earlier, I think

9 the only time I got involved with a catalog was

10 the language of "OSHA approved". And I think I

11 did that on my own initiative.

12 BY MR. HAKLAY:

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. I don't think someone told me to do

15 that.

16 Q. And we will get to that document and

17 you can give me your comments at that time on

18 that document, okay?

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. If I forget to show it to you, tell me

21 that I said I would show it to you and I promise

22 I will show it to you, okay?

23 Did you have any role in the decision

24 to place or not place warnings or cautions in

25 Fisher Scientific catalogs?



2 It's vague. But you can answer if you

3 understand.

4 THE WITNESS: Specifically, I don't

5 believe, no.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Were there any warnings or cautions in

8 any Fisher Scientific catalogs in the 1970s

9 while you were at Fisher?

10 A. I don't know. I can't recall that.

11 Q. Did any of your superiors ever mention

12 to you in the 1970s the topic of your reviewing

13 any potential warnings or cautions that could be

14 in the catalog?


16 Q. Did you have any regular -- I'm sorry,

17 let me back up.

18 Who produced this catalog?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Do you know was there a specific

21 department within Fisher Scientific that was in

22 charge of catalog production?

23 A. I do not know.

24 Q. Do you believe that you knew that back

25 in the '70s during your employment or was that


1 something you wouldn't have known even then?

2 A. I don't think I knew it then.

3 Q. Do you recall ever having any contact

4 with a person or persons who were in charge of

5 compiling and putting out the catalogs Fisher

6 Scientific put out in the 1970s?

7 A. Specifically, no. Could it have

8 happened, sure.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. I received thousands of correspondence.

11 Sure, it could have happened.

12 Q. But you don't recall any as you sit

13 here today?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And you didn't make it your business to

16 stay in contact with the people responsible for

17 putting out the catalog?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And to be fair, you do not believe that

20 was part of your job responsibilities, correct?

21 A. I didn't think it was necessary.

22 Q. Okay. Did you ever discuss it with

23 anybody at Fisher Scientific whether it was

24 necessary or not?



1 you can answer if you understand.

2 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. As you sit here today, do you know

5 whether in the 1970s any warnings about any of

6 the products in the catalog were provided to

7 consumers?


9 It's been asked and answered. But you can

10 answer it again.

11 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Or I don't

12 recall.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. As you sit here today, during the 1970s

15 do you know whether any warnings about potential

16 hazards of asbestos were ever provided to any

17 consumers or people to whom the catalog was

18 mailed?


20 It's vague. But if you understand you can

21 answer.

22 THE WITNESS: I don't think we were

23 selling any products that contained an asbestos

24 hazard, so the answer to your question would be

25 no.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. All right. Did you ever discuss -- let

3 me back up.

4 During the 1970s, were there

5 asbestos-containing products marketed through

6 your catalog?

7 A. I don't recall years. I know at one

8 time we sold a number of products that

9 supposedly contained asbestos.

10 Q. Why do you say "supposedly"?

11 A. Because I don't know if they did. I

12 didn't -- we didn't manufacture them.

13 Q. Well, I might show you in a little bit

14 from a couple of catalogs, but as for now all I

15 want to ask you is: If a catalog described a

16 product as containing asbestos or called it

17 asbestos gloves or asbestos mittens or asbestos

18 wallboard, are you saying that you're doubting

19 whether it really contained asbestos, those

20 products?

21 A. No.

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. I'm

23 going to object to the form. It's argumentative

24 and it's been asked and answered. But over my

25 objection, if you understand, you can answer it


1 again.

2 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question,

3 please.

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. If Fisher Scientific catalogs in the

6 1970s contained products or marketed products

7 that stated that they had asbestos or had

8 contained asbestos, do you question those

9 descriptions?

10 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection. But if

11 you understand you can answer again.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't think we ever

13 sold a product, period, that posed a health

14 hazard.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. If I did, I would have objected and

18 questioned it, yes.

19 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask my question

20 again. I understand your answer, but it's not

21 actually the question I asked.

22 If a product in the 1970s in your

23 catalog was described as containing asbestos or

24 had the word "asbestos" in its title, such as

25 asbestos gloves or asbestos mittens, do you


1 agree that those products had asbestos in them?

2 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll object. It lacks

3 foundation and it assumes facts. You're asking

4 the witness to speculate. If you know what the

5 question relates to you can answer it.

6 THE WITNESS: I can't answer what some

7 other manufacturer says, number one. And number

8 two, I don't know whether some of these other

9 manufacturers -- you know, I'm not into language

10 in a catalog. That wasn't my job. Except OSHA

11 approved, I'll go back to that. I'm going to

12 say the answer to your question is no, if I

13 understand you.

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. Okay. No, you don't question whether

16 those products had asbestos?


18 the form about whether he questions it or not.

19 Do you understand what what's being

20 asked?

21 THE WITNESS: Not really.

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Maybe you can rephrase.

23 You have two ships passing here.

24 BY MR. HAKLAY:

25 Q. If Fisher Scientific marketed products


1 in its catalogs in the 1970s that stated that

2 they contained asbestos in them, do you doubt

3 that they had asbestos as you sit here today?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, our ships have

6 collided, I think.

7 Do you remember the first year that you

8 noticed the words "OSHA approved" or something

9 like that in one of your Fisher catalogs?

10 A. No.

11 Q. To your knowledge was that used in more

12 than one catalog or just one?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Do you know how it came to your

15 attention that --

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. -- that those words had been used in a

18 catalog?

19 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object

20 because we're not talking about anything in

21 particular. We're assuming facts.

22 If you understand specifically what's

23 being asked, you can answer it. If you need

24 clarification, you can ask for that, too.

25 THE WITNESS: The answer to that


1 question is no.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. However it happened, you learned that

4 it happened and you took action, correct?

5 A. Yes. I took action if it said OSHA

6 approved. I don't know how it happened.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Yes, right.

9 Q. What were your specific

10 responsibilities with regard to the

11 manufacturing plant in Indiana, Pennsylvania?

12 A. Safety.

13 Q. Was any testing done -- excuse me.

14 Were safety tests conducted during your tenure

15 at the plant in Indiana, Pennsylvania?

16 A. What do you mean by "safety test"?

17 Explain that.

18 Q. I don't know. Did you -- I'll ask you,

19 what kind of testing, if any, that related to

20 safety was done in that plant during your

21 tenure.

22 A. Specifically, I don't recall. But I

23 will say that if we had any knowledge of a

24 potential hazard at Indiana, we would have done

25 the necessary and/or required monitoring.


1 Q. Okay. Did that Indiana, Pennsylvania

2 manufacturing plant exist as a Fisher Scientific

3 manufacturing plant when you started?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was it still there in 1989 when you

6 left?

7 A. I'm not sure. That's one of the

8 reasons that we opened up Mountain Home. We

9 moved a lot out of Fisher, Indiana.

10 Q. Did that Indiana, Pennsylvania plant

11 exist during the entire decade of the 1970s at

12 least?

13 A. I believe so, sure.

14 Q. Okay. You said -- a moment ago you

15 gave me sort of a hypothetical. If there was a

16 problem then we would have done something.

17 A. Right.

18 Q. And ordered whatever tests were

19 necessary. Can you tell me during your tenure

20 what, if any, problems you recall arising at the

21 Indiana, Pennsylvania manufacturing plant?

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Assumes

23 facts. But if you know you can answer.

24 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't

25 recall.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. If there was a potential problem, was

3 it the duty of whoever was in charge of safety

4 in Indiana, Pennsylvania to contact you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you believe that that hierarchy

7 actually worked such that the person in Indiana,

8 Pennsylvania was contacting you during your

9 years?

10 A. Yes.


12 form. It calls for speculation. It's an

13 incomplete hypothetical.

14 If you understand what's being asked,

15 you can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: If somebody in Indiana

17 that had safety responsibilities thought there

18 was a problem, yes, he would contact me. He or

19 she, sorry.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. And you were contacted over the years

22 about various things from Indiana, correct?

23 A. Sure.

24 Q. When I say "Indiana", you know I mean

25 Indiana, Pennsylvania, right?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. That's why I asked about the

3 State of Indiana so as not to confuse it if I

4 forget to say "Pennsylvania".

5 A. Right, right.

6 Q. Do you recall any contact, be it on the

7 phone or in person, telex, letter, any kind of

8 contact from safety personnel in Indiana,

9 Pennsylvania regarding issues about asbestos?

10 A. No, I don't. And I believe I answered

11 that before, I'm not sure. No, I don't.

12 Q. Okay. Did you see any documents this

13 morning concerning asbestos use in the Indiana,

14 Pennsylvania manufacturing plant?

15 A. I don't know if I saw them this morning

16 or whether someone told me about it that there

17 was. I think when I first started talking to

18 Kathy Hartman --


20 you not to talk about the content of any

21 communication you had with Kathy Hartman or me.

22 THE WITNESS: Okay.

23 MR. WILLIAMS: Or any other lawyer. So

24 you may want to rephrase.

25 What's the pending question?


1 MR. HAKLAY: Read him the question

2 back, please.

3 (Whereupon, the above-requested

4 question was then read by the reporter.)

5 MR. WILLIAMS: You can answer that.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Was that a yes or a no?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did those documents discuss that

10 asbestos was used for some purpose at the

11 Indiana, Pennsylvania manufacturing plant?

12 A. I don't know exactly what they

13 discussed. They did talk about Indiana,

14 Pennsylvania and asbestos.

15 Q. Okay. And as a result --

16 A. What was said in those correspondence,

17 I don't know.

18 Q. Okay. As a result of seeing that

19 document, do you believe that asbestos was used

20 during the manufacturing process of some product

21 at Indiana, Pennsylvania?

22 A. I'm not sure. Over the years I had

23 heard that maybe some fume hoods contained a

24 liner that may have contained some asbestos.

25 That's --


1 Q. When you heard that from whatever

2 source, what steps did you take to confirm

3 whether or not asbestos was being used at

4 Fisher's plant in Indiana, Pennsylvania?

5 A. I probably went there to find out.

6 Q. Do you recall whether you actually went

7 there to find out when you heard this?

8 A. No. But I know I would have gone there

9 to find out.

10 Q. And do you recall what happened when

11 you got to the plant to find out?


13 THE WITNESS: No.

14 MR. WILLIAMS: But you can answer if

15 you know.

16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. He already did. Do you recall who you

19 met with when you went there?

20 A. No. When I went to Indiana I met with

21 numerous people.

22 Q. On the issue of whether they were using

23 asbestos in products to manufacture products, do

24 you recall who you met with or talked with about

25 that specific subject when you said you would


1 have gone to that plant?


3 It's an incomplete hypothetical and it assumes

4 facts. But if you have a specific recollection,

5 you can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have a

7 specific recollection.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. Okay. As a result of hearing things --

10 let me back up.

11 Who did you hear from over the years

12 that informed you or let you know that there

13 might have been asbestos being used in Indiana,

14 Pennsylvania?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. As a result of hearing these things

17 over the years -- actually, let me back up again

18 before I ask that question. I'll get to my

19 question eventually.

20 Do you recall what year it was that you

21 first heard this?

22 A. No.

23 Q. As a result of hearing this during

24 whatever year from whatever source, what actions

25 did you take besides your belief that you


1 visited the plant?

2 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to just object

3 because I think the question is so vague, it's

4 failed of its own weight at this point. But if

5 you have a specific recollection, you can

6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: I can only say this, if

8 somebody, anybody, in Fisher Scientific came to

9 me and said, we have asbestos products in

10 Indiana, I would have done something.

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. Okay. I thought you said that over the

13 years you did hear that from people at Fisher

14 Scientific?


16 You're mischaracterizing his testimony.

17 THE WITNESS: Maybe I did.

18 MR. WILLIAMS: You can answer, though.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. Okay. Whether -- okay. Do you recall

21 whether over the years you heard that they might

22 be using asbestos in Indiana?

23 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object.

24 It's been asked and answered several times.

25 Over my objection, you can answer if you have a



2 THE WITNESS: If somebody at Indiana

3 said to me, we have a potential problem with

4 products with asbestos, I would have done

5 something. If that happened, I don't know who

6 that somebody was and I don't know what year it

7 was.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. Are you differentiating between your

10 hearing that there was asbestos used and

11 somebody telling you that asbestos was a

12 problem?


14 the form. I don't understand the question. If

15 you do you can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: No. Excuse me, I am

17 totally confused now. I really am.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. A few minutes ago you told me that

20 you'd heard over the years that asbestos might

21 be using there, correct?


23 It's been asked and answered. And I think

24 you're mischaracterizing it now.

25 If you have a specific recollection,


1 you can give it.

2 THE WITNESS: I do not have a specific

3 recollection.

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. Of whether anybody ever told you that?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. All right. Okay. Was any testing --

8 excuse me. Were any dust counts ever taken at

9 any of the manufacturing plants during your

10 tenure as corporate safety director?


12 the term "dust counts" as vague.

13 THE WITNESS: I don't know what "dust

14 count" means.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. Did you ever hire someone or have

17 someone within Fisher Scientific measure the

18 amount of dust in any specific area within any

19 of Fisher Scientific's manufacturing plants?

20 A. I don't recall specifically. But if a

21 problem came up with a fume or vapor or a dust

22 that would injure or hurt one of our employees,

23 then we did something about it and took

24 appropriate steps, yes.

25 Q. Do you recall ever actually having


1 taken or ordered those steps taken yourself?

2 A. Specifically, no, I do not recall that.

3 Q. Do you recall whether anybody else took

4 or specifically ordered those steps to be taken

5 at any of your manufacturing plants?


7 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me get my objection

8 in and you can answer. I'm going to object to

9 the form of the question as vague. But if you

10 understand it, you can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: I don't recall

12 specifically.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. So as you sit here today, as far as you

15 know, during your tenure at Fisher Scientific

16 nobody measured the amount of dust in any

17 specific area within any of your manufacturing

18 plants, correct?


20 THE WITNESS: No, I do not know that.

21 MR. WILLIAMS: Misstates the testimony

22 but you can answer again. It's argumentative,

23 frankly.

24 BY MR. HAKLAY:

25 Q. Have you seen any documents at any


1 time --

2 MR. WILLIAMS: Did we get an answer to

3 the last question?

4 MR. HAKLAY: Yes, we did.

5 MR. WILLIAMS: What was it?

6 (Whereupon, the above-requested answer

7 was then read by the reporter.)

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. Have you seen any documents at any time

10 that even suggests that dust counting happened

11 at any of the manufacturing plants Fisher

12 Scientific owned during your tenure there?


14 Dust counting is vague and the question is

15 argumentative. Over my objection, if you have a

16 specific recollection, you can testify.

17 THE WITNESS: I don't know what "dust

18 counting" means. I never heard that term in my

19 life.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. Okay. Have you seen any documents that

22 even suggest that at any time during your tenure

23 at Fisher Scientific any measurements were taken

24 of the amount of dust in any area of any of your

25 production facilities?


1 A. Dust, no.

2 Q. Have you seen any documents at any time

3 that suggest that other substances were measured

4 in Fisher Scientific meas -- manufacturing

5 plants?


7 It's vague. But you can answer if you know.

8 THE WITNESS: I'm going to say

9 probably. Because I know over the years we

10 probably measured chemical vapors at Fair Lawn,

11 New Jersey.

12 BY MR. HAKLAY:

13 Q. When you answer that question, are you

14 referring to a specific document or a general

15 memory you have?

16 A. A general memory.

17 Q. Do you have a specific memory that you

18 ever ordered or instructed someone to measure

19 vapors at your Fair Lawn, New Jersey facility?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you have a specific memory that you

22 ever asked anyone else to do that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you have a specific memory of seeing

25 any documents that said that that had been done


1 even if you had no involvement in the process?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did Fisher Scientific safety department

4 have subscriptions to any scientific or medical

5 journals?

6 A. Oh, sure. I would think so, yes.

7 Q. For a long time you were the safety

8 department -- corporate safety department,

9 correct?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. What journals or publications did you

12 have a subscription to?

13 A. I probably read "Occupational Hazards"

14 which is a national magazine about safety. I'm

15 sure I had documents from insurance companies

16 about safety. I read available literature about

17 safety my entire time at Fisher Scientific.

18 Q. What's the "available literature"?

19 What do you mean by that phrase?

20 A. "Occupational Hazards", insurance

21 companies. I don't recall the titles now. OSHA

22 standards, OSHA briefs, Western Pennsylvania

23 Safety Council publications, National Safety

24 Council publications. Yes, I've read numerous.

25 Q. Did you have a library where you kept


1 such publications?

2 A. Sure. Sure.

3 Q. Was it called a library?

4 A. No. I just kept my stuff. It's my

5 office.

6 Q. Was this passed on to your successor

7 when you left?

8 A. Sure. I didn't take anything home with

9 me. Sure.

10 Q. You said that during the course of your

11 career you took various courses in various

12 safety topics. When was the first time you ever

13 took a course related to asbestos?


15 It's vague. But you can answer if you

16 understand.

17 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I ever

18 took a course related to asbestos because we

19 didn't have an asbestos problem to my knowledge.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. As the corporate safety director, what

22 steps, if any, did you take to ensure that the

23 asbestos-containing products that were sold in

24 your catalogs were safe for consumers?

25 A. Were safe?


1 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form as

2 vague. But you can answer if you understand.

3 THE WITNESS: I didn't believe then and

4 I don't believe now that any of our products

5 that contained asbestos were a health hazard to

6 our customers.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. Are you saying that you took no steps

9 to ensure that those products --

10 A. No, I did not.


12 A. I'm sorry.

13 Q. That's okay. Are you saying you took

14 no steps to ensure that those products that you

15 sold in your catalog that contained asbestos

16 were safe for consumers?


18 It's a complete mischaracterization of his

19 testimony. But over my objection you can answer

20 that.

21 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not saying that.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. What did you do to ensure that the

24 products were safe for consumers?

25 A. Probably wrote OSHA letters saying do


1 these products come under your OSHA regulatory

2 asbestos standard.

3 Q. Is it your testimony that if a product

4 didn't come under a specific standard then it

5 was therefore safe for consumers?

6 A. No, that's not my statement.

7 Q. Okay. What else, if anything, did you

8 do besides probably writing to OSHA about

9 certain products coming under a specific OSHA

10 standard?

11 A. Read the available literature, read the

12 available research, talked personally to OSHA,

13 talked personally to pathologists, talked

14 personally to laboratory managers, talked

15 personally to laboratory technicians.

16 Q. Laboratory technicians at Fisher

17 Scientific or elsewhere?

18 A. Both.

19 Q. At companies -- laboratory technicians

20 at companies that provided products for your

21 catalog?


23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Did you speak with them?

25 MR. WILLIAMS: Misstates the testimony.


1 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Because I

2 don't know the name of the companies that

3 provided the products to our catalogs or I sure

4 don't recall.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. When you first got to Fisher Scientific

7 did you ask for or conduct an inventory of all

8 the asbestos-containing products that Fisher

9 Scientific sold in its catalogs?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I think a moment ago you told me that

12 the fact that something was covered by an OSHA

13 regulatory standard doesn't necessarily mean

14 it's safe for consumers.

15 A. That's correct, what I told you.

16 Q. Other than consulting OSHA regulatory

17 standards and consulting OSHA, what did you do

18 specifically with regard to the asbestos-

19 containing products that were sold in your

20 catalog to make sure that they were safe for

21 consumers?


23 It's been asked and specifically answered at

24 length. But over my objection you can answer it

25 again.


1 THE WITNESS: I didn't believe then and

2 I don't believe now that a pair of gloves can

3 cause any health hazard to a human being. There

4 was no literature, there were no standards,

5 there was no testimony, there was no credible

6 evidence, there was no research, there was no

7 reason to even think in the entire safety

8 medical regulatory community that a pair of

9 gloves or a mat could cause health hazards. So

10 therefore --

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. Okay. Did you ever ask the suppliers

13 of products to your catalogs to in any way prove

14 that their products were safe for consumers?


16 It's vague on several levels. If you understand

17 what's being asked, you can answer it.

18 THE WITNESS: I don't believe

19 specifically, no.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. More specifically with regards to

22 asbestos, did you ever ask any of the suppliers

23 of asbestos-containing products to Fisher, who

24 marketed and sold them through their catalogs,

25 to prove to you that those products were safe


1 for their regular intended use by consumers?


3 It's vague. The word "prove" is vague. "Safe"

4 is vague. Over my objection, if you understand

5 what's being asked, you can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe I do.

7 There was no evidence in the world to my

8 knowledge by any expert, including medical

9 people, that a pair of laboratory gloves or a

10 mat could cause health hazards to a human being.

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. Therefore --

14 Q. I understand your position on that, but

15 I'm going to ask my specific question again.

16 Did you ever ask any supplier who supplied

17 asbestos-containing products --

18 A. No.

19 Q. -- to Fisher Scientific for sale in its

20 catalog to provide any proof that the products

21 were safe for their intended use?

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me get my objection.

23 Object to the form. It's vague and asked and

24 answered. But you can answer again.

25 THE WITNESS: No.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. As you sit here today, do you have any

3 idea whether any of the producers to

4 manufactures -- let me back up and get the

5 wording right.

6 As you sit here today, do you have any

7 idea whether the manufacturers of asbestos-

8 containing products that were sold through the

9 Fisher Scientific catalog in the 1970s ever did

10 any testing to determine whether asbestos fibers

11 were released from those products during their

12 normal use by consumers?

13 A. I have no knowledge of that, no.

14 Q. All right. As you sit here today, do

15 you have any idea whether anybody else at Fisher

16 Scientific ever asked manufacturers of asbestos-

17 containing products to prove that their normal

18 use didn't present a hazard to anyone?

19 A. No, I don't know that.

20 Q. Okay. It sounds like from based on

21 your testimony that if anybody were to have done

22 anything like that, it would be you, correct?


24 assumes facts. But you can answer it.

25 THE WITNESS: If I thought there was a


1 health hazard involved with a Fisher product, I

2 would have done something, yes.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. Right.

5 A. I would have been the person, yes.

6 MR. WILLIAMS: Are you okay? Do you

7 want to take a break?

8 THE WITNESS: No, I'm all right.

9 MR. HAKLAY: I think we're going to be

10 at lunchtime at the end of this tape, assuming

11 people want to take lunch and assuming you want

12 to take lunch. I'm up for whatever anybody

13 wants to be up for.

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. I'm going to ask you the same question

16 only instead of about the catalog, I'm going to

17 ask you about any manufactured items by Fisher

18 Scientific that contained asbestos so we're

19 clear.

20 Here's my question: Do you know of

21 anybody else that ever ordered -- let me back

22 up. I don't need to ask it. Forget I said that

23 that entire introduction.

24 Were you in charge of educating anybody

25 about workplace dangers or safety issues?


1 A. My, yes.

2 Q. Who were you in charge of educating or

3 were you in charge of educating everybody?

4 A. I probably educated thousands and

5 thousands of customers.

6 Q. Okay. In terms of Fisher Scientific

7 employees, were you in charge of safety

8 education?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What range of people within Fisher

11 Scientific were you in charge of safety

12 education for? Or was it everybody?

13 A. It was every Fisher employee, yes.

14 Q. Did you provide any training yourself

15 or did you train others to train their own

16 subordinates?

17 A. Both.

18 Q. Did you ever provide any training --

19 I'm sorry, in Fair Lawn, New Jersey you said --

20 what was the potential danger that you couldn't

21 remember specifically but you said you might

22 have taken a measurement for?


24 term "danger" is vague and I think it misstates

25 the testimony. But over my objection you can


1 answer.

2 THE WITNESS: The monitoring of

3 chemical vapors.

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. Okay. Did you provide any training

6 yourself to people in Fair Lawn, New Jersey

7 about the dangers or potential dangers of

8 chemical vapors?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you train others to train people in

11 Fair Lawn about those dangers?

12 A. Yes. But, first of all, we had a

13 full-time safety professional at Fair Lawn who

14 reported to me indirectly.

15 Q. So are you saying that that person also

16 would have had some training responsibilities?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Even if it was indirectly, did you

19 confer with that person to --

20 A. Constantly.

21 Q. Let me finish. So you would know what

22 issues they were dealing with and make sure it

23 was as complete as possible?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was there somebody like that at the


1 Indiana, Pennsylvania plant?


3 "Like that" is vague.

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. I'm sorry. That's okay. I'll make it

6 less vague.

7 Was there a full-time safety

8 professional at the Indiana, Pennsylvania plant?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you train anybody on any safety

11 issues at the Indiana, Pennsylvania plant?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What issues did you train employees at

14 the Indiana, Pennsylvania plant on?

15 A. Safety and health issues.

16 Q. Can you recall what safety issues you

17 actually dealt with at that plant?

18 A. Sure. Housekeeping, fire protection,

19 first aid.

20 Q. Is that also a plant where you trained

21 other people to provide that training in

22 Indiana, Pennsylvania?


24 if you understand you can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. Did you ever provide any training to

3 anybody at any of your manufacturing plants

4 about asbestos?

5 A. Specifically, no.

6 Q. Did you ever instruct somebody below

7 you or at one of the plants to provide training

8 about the potential hazards of asbestos to

9 anybody at your manufacturing plants?

10 A. Specifically, no. I don't recall. I

11 don't believe so.

12 Q. Did you ever undertake as corporate

13 safety director a search of historical

14 literature on the -- what's been known about the

15 dangers of asbestos through the years?

16 A. Absolutely.

17 Q. How far back did you go?

18 A. What year?

19 Q. Yes. How far back in the literature

20 did you go, I'm sorry.

21 A. I'm very poor at dates and times. I

22 don't know.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. But the answer to your question is

25 absolutely.


1 Q. Did you go back as early as the

2 beginning of the 20th century to look for

3 literature?


5 It's been asked and answered.

6 THE WITNESS: Probably not.

7 MR. WILLIAMS: If you know you can

8 answer.

9 BY MR. HAKLAY:

10 Q. Did you go back to the 1930s or so, a

11 long time before you started, to find out what

12 was known back then?


14 It's vague. It assumes facts. If you have a

15 specific recollection, you can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: No.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. Do you know how far back in the search

19 for knowledge you went approximately?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. How long a project did you undertake to

22 educate yourself on the potential hazards of

23 asbestos exposure?


25 the form. Hazard of asbestos exposure is vague


1 and undefined and the question assumes facts.

2 But if you understand what's being asked, you

3 can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you

5 mean by "hazards".

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Is the word "hazard" something you used

8 in your job at Fisher Scientific?

9 A. Sure.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. But I'm not sure --

12 Q. What did it mean to you --


14 answer. You said you're not sure --

15 THE WITNESS: I use these gloves. If

16 you ate them, that's a hazard.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. During your research that you stated

19 you did into asbestos, did you form a conclusion

20 as to whether asbestos could be dangerous to

21 humans in any circumstance?


23 Mischaracterizes the witness's testimony that he

24 did research. I don't believe that was his

25 testimony. But if you understand what's being


1 asked specifically, you can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: Whenever I had knowledge

3 of asbestos, I researched all of the available

4 literature. And I found out that from all

5 available literature that it was hazardous to

6 people if they cut it, drilled it, freed it into

7 the air, broke it, tore it.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Longshoring.

11 Q. What does "freed it into the air" mean?

12 A. Fibers in the air.

13 Q. Is that process of fibers in the air,

14 freed into the air, specific to a particular

15 kind of use in an asbestos product or not?

16 A. Sure. Longshoring I just mentioned.

17 Construction, demolition. If back in the '50s

18 you were an employee who was relining a boiler

19 and you had to tear the old lining off the

20 boiler, that was asbestos.

21 Q. Okay. Do you believe that those liners

22 or pipe coverings or insulation were a hundred

23 percent asbestos or they were asbestos-

24 containing products?

25 MR. WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. Let me


1 object. We're talking about an incomplete

2 hypothetical. Assuming facts that aren't even

3 defined in the question. If you understand

4 specifically what's being asked, you can answer.

5 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have the

6 answer to that.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. Do you know one way or the other?

9 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection. If you

10 understand what --

11 THE WITNESS: I don't have the answer

12 to the physical 100 percent makeup of products.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. Okay. Did you reach a conclusion in

15 your attempt to learn about asbestos at Fisher

16 Scientific as to whether products that were less

17 than 100 percent asbestos could nevertheless

18 release asbestos fibers into the air?

19 MR. WILLIAMS: Form.

20 THE WITNESS: No.

21 BY MR. HAKLAY:

22 Q. Did you ever try to reach a -- or find

23 an answer to that question while you were at




1 if you understand, you can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: I tried to find out did

3 any of our products pose a risk to users, yes.

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. Did you ever do research or attempt to

6 learn about the general nature of the potential

7 hazards of asbestos to human beings outside of

8 your specific products from your catalogs?

9 A. Sure.

10 Q. Okay. And what conclusion did you

11 reach about that?


13 Assumes facts. If you formed a conclusion or if

14 you have a specific recollection, you can

15 testify to it.

16 THE WITNESS: I am not an asbestos

17 expert. Nobody in this room is an asbestos

18 expert --

19 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, one might be.

20 MR. HAKLAY: I'm with you on that. Go

21 ahead, sir.

22 THE WITNESS: And I say that in all

23 honesty.

24 MR. WILLIAMS: For the record, I was

25 not pointing at Jack Reilly when I said that.


1 I'm sorry I interrupted you.

2 MR. HAKLAY: I'm an expert on murderers

3 personally because that's what I've done most of

4 my career, prosecute them. Tell me -- finish

5 your answer, please.

6 THE WITNESS: The credible evidence on

7 asbestos from everybody, from safety

8 professionals, from researchers, from doctors,

9 that asbestos could be injurious to health if

10 certain set fibers got into their system. And

11 they related that to specific occupations such

12 as I said before, shipbuilding, demolition,

13 construction, pipe covering, pipe demolition,

14 boiler manufacturer, building materials, ceiling

15 tiles, floor materials. They had the potential

16 to release fibers which had the potential to

17 make people sick.

18 But there were numerous other health

19 factors associated with that. Did those people

20 smoke, how much did they breathe, for what

21 duration did they breathe. That was the

22 available literature and the knowledge and the

23 expert evidence.

24 BY MR. HAKLAY:

25 Q. In the 1970s?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. I just wanted to pinpoint it to

3 when you were talking about it.

4 A. Yes. And before.

5 Q. So if I understand you correctly, in

6 your review of whatever literature you reviewed,

7 you read that there were people in certain

8 professions who were exposed to released

9 asbestos fibers, correct?


11 the form. He said a lot more than that so it's

12 an incomplete hypothetical. It's been asked and

13 answered. If you want to answer it again, give

14 a complete answer, you can do so.

15 THE WITNESS: I'll just try to --

16 MR. WILLIAMS: The question

17 mischaracterizes the testimony today.

18 THE WITNESS: I'll just try to clarify

19 this.

20 MR. HAKLAY: Can you answer my question

21 while you clarify?

22 THE WITNESS: That's what I'm going to

23 try and do.

24 MR. HAKLAY: Then fine.

25 THE WITNESS: I'm not an asbestos


1 expert. Did I research literature that said

2 certain products containing asbestos could

3 release fibers in the air when this occurred

4 with those products and could potentially cause

5 health hazards? Yes.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. That was a perfect answer, meaning it

8 was an answer for my question. So thank you for

9 clarifying that.

10 A. You're welcome.

11 Q. Did you have any responsibilities with

12 regards to education of Fisher Scientific's

13 sales staff on hazards of products sold in the

14 catalogs?


16 assumes facts not in evidence; namely, there was

17 a hazard. But over my objection, if you have a

18 specific recollection, you can give it.

19 THE WITNESS: Occasionally I would

20 travel with salespeople from Fisher Scientific

21 and answer their customers' safety concerns

22 right with the salesperson.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Did you see -- I'm sorry.

25 A. Occasionally they would invite me to


1 sales meetings to address the salesforce. So

2 the answer to your question: Did I ever

3 interface with Fisher's salespeople concerning

4 safety? Yes.

5 Q. Did you ever have meetings with groups

6 of salespeople specifically to educate them

7 about safety issues?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And did you take it upon

10 yourself to do that?

11 A. Both. I'd be invited or I'd take it --

12 or invite myself.

13 Q. When you spoke to the sales staff,

14 whether at their invitation or your initiative

15 in meetings with some group of sales staff, did

16 you ever talk to them about asbestos?


18 THE WITNESS: No.

19 MR. WILLIAMS: I was objecting to the

20 form as vague. But over my objection you can

21 answer.

22 THE WITNESS: It never came up.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. At these meetings, whether you asked to

25 have them or they invited you to come speak to


1 them, did you ever set the agenda yourself?

2 A. No. I set my agenda but not the agenda

3 of the meeting.

4 Q. Did you ever say -- decide I'm going

5 there and I need to tell them X, Y and Z?


7 THE WITNESS: Sure.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. And I take it, other times you

10 responded to their questions and concerns; is

11 that fair?

12 A. That's fair.

13 Q. During the times where you decided that

14 there were things you needed to impart, whether

15 or not they asked about them, did you ever have

16 asbestos on that list?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. During the times you traveled

19 with salespeople on sales calls as part of your

20 job, did you ever answer customers' questions

21 about asbestos?

22 A. No. Never came up.

23 Q. Did you ever take it upon yourself to

24 raise the issue with a customer?



1 THE WITNESS: No. There was no

2 credible evidence about anything that Fisher

3 Scientific Company had to do with health

4 hazards. No.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. Did you ever undertake any kind of

7 project or ask somebody else at Fisher

8 Scientific to do so to determine specifically

9 what type of asbestos was in the asbestos-

10 containing products that were sold through your

11 catalog?

12 A. Not to my knowledge. There was no

13 reason to.

14 Q. Okay. Did Fisher Scientific -- excuse

15 me. When a product would be sold through your

16 catalog, would Fisher Scientific receive any

17 manual that came with that product to pass on to

18 consumers?


20 It's vague and incomplete.

21 THE WITNESS: I don't know that.

22 That's marketing. I don't know that.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Was there any kind of a requirement at

25 Fisher Scientific that a supplier of a product


1 that would be then resold by you through your

2 catalog provide any specific information about

3 that product?


5 It's incomplete, vague. If you understand

6 specifically what's being asked, you can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: If I understand your

8 question, and I'm not quite sure I do, if we

9 sold first aid kits and OSHA had a requirement

10 all first aid supplies shall be approved by the

11 consulting physician; we didn't manufacture the

12 first aid kits, we distributed them. So I would

13 say to the manufacturer: Have you received

14 approval on your first aid kits by your

15 consulting physician? Yes.

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. Just so I understand, that consulting

18 physician would be somebody who actually worked

19 for or was hired by the manufacturer --


21 Q. -- to approve the product before it

22 could be sold legally?

23 A. That's correct. Let me maybe try to

24 clarify it.

25 Q. Give me one second. Go ahead.


1 A. OSHA had a requirement, which is law,

2 the law of the land, your first aid kit must be

3 approved by a consulting physician. So I would

4 ask the manufacturer of the first aid kits, do

5 you have approval from a consulting physician?

6 Sure.

7 Q. Understood. Did they have to provide

8 -- did you insist they provide you with some

9 kind of certification or document to show --

10 A. Certainly, if I asked that. Certainly.

11 Q. Did you ask -- was that a requirement

12 you had that they provide such a thing in the

13 case of first aid kits?

14 A. It's a requirement I asked for, yes.

15 Q. Okay. With regards to the asbestos-

16 containing products sold through your Fisher

17 Scientific catalog, did you ever insist that any

18 kind of documentation related to potential

19 release of asbestos fibers be provided to you?

20 A. No.

21 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object. It

22 assumes facts not in evidence.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Do you know whether anybody else at

25 Fisher Scientific ever required something like


1 that?

2 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection.

3 THE WITNESS: My answer would be

4 probably not because -- and I guess I'm

5 repeating myself -- there was no credible

6 evidence in the world that laboratory products

7 that contained asbestos could potentially cause

8 a health hazard. None. So therefore why would

9 we --

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. I guess my last question --

12 A. It would be like -- I'm not being

13 funny. It would be like does this glass contain

14 asbestos, does this telephone contain asbestos,

15 does it release fibers. There's no evidence in

16 the world that this glass releases asbestos

17 fibers. So the answer is no.

18 Q. So was it your belief that asbestos

19 gloves could not release fibers under any normal

20 usage circumstances?

21 A. It was my belief --

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Asked and

23 answered. You can answer it again.

24 THE WITNESS: It was my belief that

25 asbestos gloves could (sic), weren't and would


1 not create a potential health hazard.

2 MR. WILLIAMS: You said couldn't or

3 could? You said --

4 THE WITNESS: Could not.

5 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.

6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We have to go off

7 the record. This is the end of tape two in

8 today's deposition. The time now is 12:21 and

9 we're off the record.


11 from 12:21 p.m. to 1:11 p.m.)


13 beginning of tape three of today's deposition.

14 We're going back on the record. The time now is

15 1:11 p.m.

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Reilly.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. Did you get a chance to get something

20 to eat?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, as you noticed we've been taking

23 breaks at the end of the videotapes which you

24 have noticed they're an hour long. There's no

25 reason for you to know that. If for any reason


1 this afternoon, because you've already been

2 doing this for two full tapes, you think an hour

3 is too long and you need a break and you want to

4 stop after 45 minutes, we'll take breaks then or

5 whenever you need to, okay?

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. If you don't, we'll go the hour unless

8 you tell us.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. I'm going to move on a little from what

11 we were talking about this morning, you will

12 probably be happy to hear.

13 Something I forgot to ask you this

14 morning. It is your understanding that what was

15 delivered to you by sheriffs at your door was a

16 subpoena?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. To appear at this deposition?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And just because I didn't ask you, were

21 those sheriffs unpleasant in any way to you?

22 A. No. He was very nice. But I did ask

23 him -- because this is all new to me -- can I

24 make a phone call before I accept this subpoena

25 and he says, no, you have no choice. I said,


1 okay.

2 Q. So you made your phone call afterwards?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Sir, in

5 preparation for this deposition, did you review

6 the deposition transcripts of any of the three

7 Plaintiffs in this matter: Robert Blackburn,

8 Raymond Feldner or Andrew Zakanych?

9 A. No. Never heard of any of them.

10 Q. Do you know anything specifically about

11 the products that they claim they were exposed

12 to that exposed them to asbestos?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I take it then, you have no opinion as

15 to whether they are or not telling the truth

16 about anything?

17 A. Yes.


19 assumes facts.

20 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. I'm finally going

21 to mark the first document. I've marked each,

22 by the way, as John Reilly 1 and then 3/1/11 and

23 then obviously the next one will be 2, 3 or 4.

24 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 1, a document -

25 9/7/71, was then received and marked for


1 identification.)

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. I have one for you and for the most

4 part I have one at a deposition. We'll make a

5 pile when we're done and give them to the court

6 reporter, the officially marked ones. Okay,

7 sir?

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Just for the record, this is a document

10 that's two-sided that's dated September 7th,

11 1972.

12 MR. WILLIAMS: What exhibit number is

13 this?

14 MR. HAKLAY: This is Number 1.

15 MR. WILLIAMS: I don't have a --

16 MR. HAKLAY: No, no. You need to keep

17 the one with the number. I just put a sticker

18 on it just now. That's number one. I'll say

19 the number of each one as I mark it, sir.

20 MR. WILLIAMS: This is John Reilly 1?

21 MR. HAKLAY: Yes.

22 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm with you.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Okay. And it's written to Tom Price

25 and Peter V. Del Boca and it's from someone --


1 I'm sorry, it's written to Tom Price from Peter

2 V. Del Boca; is that correct, sir?

3 A. What's that, please?

4 Q. Is what I just said correct, that this

5 is a September 7, 1972 letter from Tom Price to

6 Peter V. Del Boca -- I'm sorry, from Peter V.

7 Del Boca to Tom Price?

8 A. 1971.

9 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just going to object

10 to form. It lacks foundation. But if you know

11 you can answer.

12 BY MR. HAKLAY:

13 Q. You just corrected me because I said

14 "1972" and it looks like it says "1971".

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Correct?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. And I will acknowledge it says

19 September 7, 1971. I misread it.

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Other than that, do you know who

22 Mr. Price was?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who was Mr. Price?

25 A. I believe he was in either marketing or


1 sales.

2 Q. And do you know who Mr. Del Boca was?

3 A. That name is not familiar to me.

4 Q. Okay. On the back under his -- where

5 his signature would be, it has his name and it

6 says "Quality Investigation Chemist". Have you

7 ever heard of such a title?

8 A. No. But he's probably at Fair Lawn,

9 I'm guessing. I don't know.

10 MR. WILLIAMS: I don't want you to

11 guess or speculate. Just answer what you know.

12 THE WITNESS: Okay. No. He is from

13 Fair Lawn.

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. The document states he's from Fair

16 Lawn, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Right on the top. And the document

19 refers in its first sentence to Walt Fisher. Do

20 you know who that is?

21 A. I know the name.

22 Q. Who was he?

23 A. He was I believe -- I believe a Fisher

24 employee. I recognize the name.

25 Q. Okay. And this document -- this


1 document predates your time at Fisher

2 Scientific, correct, because it's 1971?


4 Q. Have you ever seen this document before

5 just now?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were you shown it this morning?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. The second paragraph talks

10 about A-908 asbestos or the amphibole type which

11 contains -- which includes various silicates of

12 magnesium, iron, calcium and sodium, correct?

13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll object. The

14 document speaks for itself. Over my objection

15 you can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: Are you saying correct,

17 does it say that?

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Yes. Correct, does it say that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you know, when I read something from

22 a document I will always ask you, did I do so

23 correctly, so you don't think I'm misleading

24 you. If I read something wrong or say something

25 that you don't see there, you tell me, you read


1 it wrong or it doesn't say that, okay?

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. And we'll try to figure out whether I'm

4 an idiot or whether I'm just referring to

5 something you're not looking at.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. This clearly refers to A-908 asbestos.

8 Do you recognize that phrase as something you

9 know of?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know what amphibole type of

12 asbestos means?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you believe you knew that back in

15 the 1970s, what amphibole type of asbestos

16 meant, or is that something you've never really

17 heard before?

18 A. I've never really heard that name

19 before.

20 Q. After there's a list of what look like

21 chemicals and stuff, right, on the first page?


23 Over my objection you can answer.

24 BY MR. HAKLAY:

25 Q. And then there's a paragraph that


1 starts, "This material is toxic," correct? Do

2 you see that? I just want to make sure you're

3 with me.

4 A. Yeah, I see that.

5 Q. It says, "This material is toxic by

6 inhalation of dust particles. The tolerance, in

7 air, is about 2 million particles per cubic

8 foot. Prolonged exposure to the dust can result

9 in pulmonary fibrosis (asbestosis), emphysema

10 and lung neoplasms."

11 Did I read that correctly, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know what asbestosis is?

14 A. I believe it may be a form of lung

15 cancer.

16 Q. In your research back when you were at

17 Fisher Scientific that you told me that you did

18 into asbestos and its potential hazards were

19 dangers, did you come across the term

20 "asbestosis"?

21 A. Yes.


23 out. Mischaracterizes the witness's prior

24 testimony about research. But over my

25 objection, you can listen to his question and


1 then answer it if you have knowledge.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. I think you already answered.

4 A. I heard the name "asbestosis" before.

5 Q. In the review of literature you did

6 back when you were at Fisher Scientific on the

7 subject of asbestos, did you form an opinion

8 yourself or learn what causes asbestosis?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know what a lung neoplasm is?

11 A. No.

12 Q. If someone said to you that a lung

13 neoplasm is lung cancer, a malignancy, would

14 that mean anything to you or it means nothing to

15 you?


17 assumes facts. If you know you can answer.

18 THE WITNESS: Well, I know what they

19 mean by lung cancer, yes.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. Do you know what -- do you associate a

22 neoplasm with a tumor cancerous tumor?

23 A. No. I don't know what they mean by

24 neoplasm.

25 Q. Is that a word that you believe you ran


1 across into while during your time at Fisher

2 Scientific that came across your desk in

3 documents or otherwise?

4 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Assumes

5 facts. But you can answer other.

6 THE WITNESS: Neoplasm?

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you ever attempt to seek out or

11 review literature on the causes of lung cancer

12 when you were at Fisher Scientific?

13 A. I've talked to people about lung

14 cancer. To doctors.

15 Q. Doctors in relation to your work --

16 A. Customers. Yes, in relation to my

17 work.

18 Q. Customers who purchased things from

19 your catalog or other customers?


21 THE WITNESS: I'm assuming that

22 hospitals purchased things from our catalogs and

23 over the course of my years, I talked to

24 doctors.

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. And in what context did you talk to

2 them about lung cancer?

3 A. Chemicals.

4 Q. Not asbestos?

5 A. Broad category of chemicals.

6 Q. Do you consider asbestos to be a

7 chemical?

8 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. You

9 can answer if you understand what's being asked.

10 THE WITNESS: I'm not a chemist, but in

11 the broad form, I would say it's in the chemical

12 family.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. Okay. When you talked to these doctors

15 at let's say hospital customers of Fisher

16 Scientific, did you discuss asbestos with them

17 specifically?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Where it says in that second paragraph,

20 "our A-908 asbestos," do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then it talks about asbestosis and

23 lung neoplasms a couple of paragraphs down.

24 MR. WILLIAMS: Couple of paragraphs,

25 where are you referring to, Counsel?


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. Do you see in the second full paragraph

3 it starts, "our A-908 asbestos"?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Then I called it a paragraph, it may

6 not be -- a list of chemicals with some numbers

7 next to it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then the next full paragraph

10 starts, "This material is toxic" includes, as we

11 already read, a reference to asbestosis and lung

12 neoplasms, correct?


14 THE WITNESS: Correct.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. At any time during your research or

17 self-education on the issue of asbestos at

18 Fisher Scientific, did you associate asbestos

19 exposure with either asbestosis or lung

20 neoplasms?


22 Vague. If you understand you can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: I'm not quite sure I

24 understand. I'll try to answer what I think I

25 understand you asked me.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. Go ahead.

3 A. At my time at Fisher I did research and

4 read literature on asbestos and lung cancer,

5 yes. But it had nothing to do with Fisher

6 Scientific laboratory products.

7 Q. Okay. And you understand --

8 MR. WILLIAMS: Counsel, you keep

9 interrupting him.

10 MR. HAKLAY: No, I don't. I believe he

11 was finished.

12 MR. WILLIAMS: No, he wasn't finished.

13 You're jumping in and cutting him off. Let him

14 finish.

15 MR. HAKLAY: Are you finished?

16 THE WITNESS: I was thinking about

17 something else. Where I'm getting a little

18 confused is if there were any literature on

19 Fisher laboratory products or anybody else's

20 laboratory products and asbestos, I would have

21 known about it. I would have talked about it.

22 I would have studied it. There was none.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Okay. Mr. Del Boca was a Fisher

25 Scientific employee you told me, correct?


1 A. I told you I didn't recognize that

2 name.

3 Q. Right. But then you told me you

4 thought he worked in Fair Lawn because that's

5 what it says, correct?

6 A. That's what it says, yes.

7 Q. People who worked at Fair Lawn were

8 Fisher Scientific employees, correct?

9 A. Yes --


11 You're asking him for a legal conclusion as to

12 whether a person he doesn't know was an employee

13 legally. If you know the answer to that, you

14 can answer that. Don't speculate.

15 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know the

16 answer to that.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. Have you seen documents referencing

19 people in Fisher Scientific, as you've told me

20 Tom Price's, that reference Fair Lawn that are

21 talking about something other than Fisher

22 Scientific's plant in Fair Lawn?


24 That question is indecipherable. If you

25 understand that question --


1 THE WITNESS: No, I don't understand

2 that question.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. About three minutes ago did you not

5 tell me that you believe Mr. Del Boca worked at

6 Fair Lawn based on what this document states?

7 A. Yes. I saw the words "Fair Lawn".

8 Q. Let me preface the next question by

9 saying, I'm not asking about Fisher Scientific

10 products specifically, okay, sold through its

11 catalog. By 1971 does this document not let

12 anybody who wants to see it at Fisher Scientific

13 know that asbestos is a dangerous -- potentially

14 dangerous substance and it can cause asbestosis

15 and lung neoplasms?


17 form. It's vague. And you can answer it

18 however you want to answer it.

19 THE WITNESS: If I understand the

20 question, I'd say how does Peter Del Boca know

21 that this product causes lung cancer. Peter Del

22 Boca to my knowledge is not a doctor or not an

23 asbestos expert or not an asbestos scientist.

24 So how does he know.

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. In the second full paragraph that

2 starts "our A-908 asbestos" --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- do you have any idea where Fisher

5 Scientific would have used or handled "our A-908

6 asbestos"?

7 A. No. Because I don't even know what

8 A-908 asbestos is.

9 Q. I think this morning we talked about

10 whether asbestos-containing products were

11 manufactured by Fisher Scientific, and I'm not

12 going to ask you those questions again, because

13 I asked them ad infinitum, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. WILLIAMS: Just ask your question,

16 Counsel. You don't need to preface it. Just

17 ask it.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Did you ever in your research come

20 across designations, names, types of any kind of

21 asbestos that might have either been used to

22 manufacture products by Fisher Scientific or

23 used in products sold by Fisher Scientific?

24 MR. WILLIAMS: Wow, that's really

25 compound. Could you read that back? Maybe you


1 can break them up a little bit.

2 MR. HAKLAY: No, I'm good with that.

3 MR. WILLIAMS: It's pretty broad.

4 Well, then let's read it back.



7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. You can put that

9 aside, sir. I'm going to mark this next exhibit

10 as John Reilly 2, 3/11, the date.

11 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 2, Fisher

12 Scientific Catalog 74, was then received and

13 marked for identification.)

14 MR. HAKLAY: Take your time and look at

15 this. It looks to be about eight, nine pages

16 and it's double-sided.

17 MR. WILLIAMS: It is -- it's dense. Is

18 there anything you want him to focus on?

19 MR. HAKLAY: I do but I want him to

20 make sure he knows what he's looking at before I

21 ask him about it.

22 THE WITNESS: Okay.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Does this appear to be part of the

25 Fisher Scientific catalog from -- company


1 catalog from 1974?

2 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll object to the form.

3 Lacks foundation. If you know you can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what year.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. Okay. Could you look at the first

7 page?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Does the first page state "Catalog 74"?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Generally speaking, would that refer to

12 the year '74?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. I actually would like you to go

15 to -- I'll give you the page numbers since this

16 is obviously not --

17 MR. WILLIAMS: For the record, this is

18 excerpts of -- that you put together, Counsel,

19 of the Catalog 74 which is a cover of it?

20 MR. HAKLAY: Yes. For the record, the

21 identical excerpt that was shown to Mr. Forte,

22 but absolutely not a complete catalog.

23 MR. WILLIAMS: But you're representing

24 that these pages come from this catalog?

25 MR. HAKLAY: Yes.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. If you can go to page 674, right almost

3 at the very end. Right there on the page on

4 your left. Do you see on the top it says,

5 "Protect Hands from Burns, Caustics and

6 Contamination"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then I'm going to read this --

9 there's a picture of what appears to be a hand

10 in a glove; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then it says, "To handle hot

13 objects. Asbestos gloves 11 inches long. Fully

14 protect hands and wrists even when holding tongs

15 in front of hot furnaces. Places for thumb and

16 four fingers. Large size. Loose fitting.

17 Fleece lined. Meets OSHA requirements."

18 Did I read that correctly?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll offer an objection.

21 The document speaks for itself.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. Would you agree that Fisher sold

24 asbestos-containing gloves through its catalogs

25 in 1974?


1 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. Foundation.

2 You can answer if you know.

3 THE WITNESS: I'd agree that Fisher

4 Scientific sold laboratory gloves that were --

5 that may have contained asbestos through its

6 catalog, yes.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. Okay. Well, you say "may have

9 contained asbestos". The specific description

10 here in Fisher's own catalog is asbestos gloves.

11 A. Well, then, I would probably say --

12 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me offer an

13 objection. Answer to your personal knowledge.

14 We don't want you to guess or speculate.

15 THE WITNESS: I don't know about 1974

16 or 19 -- it says asbestos gloves, so I would

17 assume that those gloves contained some sort of

18 asbestos.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. As you sit here with these gloves

21 pictured here, do you have any idea who the

22 supplier to Fisher Scientific of those gloves

23 was?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And that's not something that actually


1 interested you even when you were working at

2 Fisher; is that fair?

3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form with

4 the phrase "interested". Over my objection, if

5 you understand what's being asked, you can

6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: I would have no reason

8 whatsoever to know who did we get these gloves

9 from.

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. Now, the last phrase in the description

12 is "meets OSHA requirements". Do you know what

13 that phrase means?


15 Lack of foundation. The witness didn't draft

16 the document, how would he know what it means.

17 But over my objection, if you know you can

18 answer.

19 THE WITNESS: OSHA does not approve

20 products, so if I would have seen this I would

21 have said don't say that.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. As corporate safety director, if you

24 had seen this in 1974, you would have told the

25 sales staff that they cannot write that in a


1 catalog to consumers; is that fair?

2 A. Yes. I would say that's -- you know,

3 OSHA might --


5 answer, Counsel.

6 MR. HAKLAY: I didn't actually say a

7 word, Counsel.

8 MR. WILLIAMS: You were interrupting

9 him. Go ahead.

10 THE WITNESS: OSHA might have a

11 standard that says people shouldn't burn their

12 hands and Fisher Scientific might say, well, we

13 have these gloves and if you wear them you won't

14 burn your hands. That doesn't meet OSHA

15 requirements. And if I would have seen

16 something like this, I would have said don't use

17 that kind of language.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Is it fair to say that because this

20 language is printed in this page from a catalog

21 that at the time you did not see this?


23 Calls for speculation.

24 THE WITNESS: I don't remember in 1974

25 what I saw. That's a long time ago.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. Let me ask you a question --

3 A. You know.

4 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead, sir.

5 A. Maybe I saw it in 1990. I don't know.

6 Q. Let me ask you a question. If you saw

7 a catalog entry or a proposed catalog entry and

8 said they shouldn't be saying that, would you

9 express that opinion to the appropriate people

10 who put together the catalogs?

11 A. I already have, sure.

12 Q. And if you did that, were they required

13 to remove the phrase that you felt was

14 inappropriate?


16 It's an incomplete hypothetical. If you

17 understand what's being asked you can answer.

18 THE WITNESS: They didn't report to me.

19 I didn't sign their paycheck. I was in charge

20 of corporate safety. 99.9 percent of the time

21 when I asked Fisher Scientific Company to do

22 something that pertained to safety, they did it.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. I think this morning you told us that

25 there was an occasion where you saw the words


1 you said "OSHA approved", correct?

2 A. (Witness nods his head.)


4 MR. HAKLAY: You have to answer out

5 loud.


7 Mischaracterizing the prior testimony. If you

8 specifically recall what you testified to

9 before, you can answer.

10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. But OSHA

11 doesn't approve products, so if I saw that

12 terminology, I would say don't use that

13 terminology.

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. Did you testify this morning that on at

16 least one occasion you told people not to use

17 the term "OSHA approved"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you asked whoever you asked not to

20 use it, did they listen to you and stop using

21 that term?

22 A. I believe they did, but I'm not sure.

23 Q. Okay. You can put that catalog aside.

24 Just pile them up, that's fine. I'm going to

25 have this marked as John Reilly 3, 3/1/11.


1 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 3, letter -


3 identification.)

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. Counsel, for you. This is a one-page

6 document. The heading says "US Department of

7 Labor, Occupational Safety and Health

8 Administration, Regional Office, Suite 15" -- I

9 think it's 220, and it's at a market Street

10 address in Philadelphia, correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Do you recognize Occupational Safety

13 and Health Administration as the full name for

14 what we've been calling OSHA?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it's dated 1/23/76 and it's written

17 to Mr. John R. Reilly, Corporate Safety

18 Director, Fisher Scientific Company, correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. All right. Is that you?

21 A. That's me.

22 Q. And it's signed from apparently someone

23 at OSHA named David H. Rhone, R-H-O-N-E,

24 Regional Administrator, correct?

25 A. No. It's signed for David Rhone.


1 F-O-R.

2 Q. Oh, that's what that says?

3 A. That's what I --

4 Q. Sincerely --

5 A. That's what I read it to say.

6 Q. Sincerely yours, for, and then there's

7 a signature, and then under it in print it says,

8 David H. Rhone, Regional Administrator, correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Do you know who signed it for him?

11 A. No.


13 Foundation.

14 Let me just get a chance to get my

15 objections out so just wait a minute to answer.

16 THE WITNESS: Sure.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. The very beginning of this letter from

19 somebody who signed on behalf of Mr. Rhone

20 references a December 3, 1974 letter that you

21 wrote, correct?

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. '75, I

23 believe.

24 MR. HAKLAY: What did I say?

25 MR. WILLIAMS: '74.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. Let me read it so I don't make that

3 mistake because that's twice I've gotten dates

4 wrong already. "Dear Mr. Reilly: In your

5 letter of December 3, 1975 you requested

6 clarification of the Asbestos Standard 1910.1001

7 with reference to the use of laboratory products

8 made of asbestos. In your letter you state that

9 you believe that such products are exempt from

10 the standard because their use does not liberate

11 airborne asbestos."

12 Did I read the first paragraph

13 correctly?

14 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. The document

15 speaks for itself. But you can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. Okay. Did you write a letter on

19 December 3, 1975 to whoever it was at the US

20 Department of Labor?

21 A. I'm assuming I did.

22 Q. In preparation for this deposition,

23 have you seen such a letter?

24 A. I may have.

25 Q. Have you seen the letter you wrote to


1 Mr. Rhone?

2 A. I may have.

3 Q. When did you see it?


5 mischaracterizes his testimony. But you can

6 answer.

7 THE WITNESS: In the last week or so

8 since I've got a subpoena, I've seen some

9 correspondence. I may have seen the December

10 3rd, '75 letter that I wrote.

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. Do you have any memory of that letter

13 as you sit here today?

14 A. As I sit here today, I remember writing

15 OSHA concerning laboratory products and the

16 asbestos standard, yes.

17 Q. Okay. Have you seen the letter you're

18 looking at, Exhibit 3, since 1976?

19 A. I may have seen this, yes, in the last

20 week or so, yes.

21 Q. Were you shown this document this

22 morning to your knowledge?

23 A. I may have. I'm not sure.

24 Q. All right. I want to ask you about the

25 second paragraph.


1 A. Okay.

2 Q. Which starts with "The use of such

3 products by customers is not addressed by this

4 standard. This standard addresses workplaces

5 where employees must handle such products during

6 storage, packaging, dispensing and shipping.

7 The release and extent of release of airborne

8 fibers can only be determined by monitoring."

9 Before I ask you a question about it,

10 did I read that paragraph correctly?

11 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. It speaks

12 for itself. But you can answer.


14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. Okay. What is your understanding of

16 this paragraph of this letter that was written

17 to you back in 1976?

18 A. My understanding is your laboratory

19 safety products does not come under our

20 standard.

21 Q. Now, what do you mean by "your

22 laboratory safety products"?

23 A. The only two laboratory safety products

24 that I even remember in regard to asbestos were

25 gloves and a mat.


1 Q. Okay. Fisher Scientific sold such

2 items in its catalogs?

3 A. Gloves and a mat, yes, I believe so.

4 Q. All right. What about the fume hoods,

5 what kind of product is that?


7 It's vague. If you understand what is being

8 asked, if you do, you can answer.

9 THE WITNESS: I think we already talked

10 about that. There may have been fume hood

11 liners that contained asbestos particles, but

12 they have nothing to do with the laboratory

13 safety products that we're talking about because

14 those were not manufactured by us and the fume

15 hoods were.

16 And in my letter, which I don't recall

17 the language, I was only talking to this guy

18 about laboratory safety products such as gloves

19 and mats, not fume hoods.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. Such as items that you bought from

22 other companies --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- and sold through your catalog?

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. Nevertheless, according to this letter,

2 and based on your experience in the safety

3 field, does this letter tell you that if you did

4 make fume hoods containing asbestos that they

5 would be covered by that standard?

6 MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, Counsel, I would

7 object to form. Now you're completely

8 mischaracterizing the witness's testimony. He

9 told you what his letter related to, so you're

10 asking him to speculate with an incomplete

11 hypothetical. If you understand what's being

12 asked, you can answer. But it goes well beyond

13 the document.

14 THE WITNESS: Well, fume hoods in my

15 opinion are oranges and apples compared to

16 gloves. We manufactured the fume hoods; we

17 don't manufacture the gloves. When I wrote the

18 letter I was talking about the products that we

19 don't manufacture.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. Okay. In terms of the product that you

22 did manufacture, the fume hood is what I want to

23 ask you about, was that made in a Fisher

24 Scientific workplace?

25 A. We made fume hoods at one time at


1 Indiana, Pennsylvania.

2 Q. And were those fume hoods that were

3 manufactured in your plant in Indiana,

4 Pennsylvania, were they stored, packaged,

5 dispensed and shipped by Fisher Scientific

6 employees?


8 THE WITNESS: I would assume so.

9 MR. WILLIAMS: We don't want you to

10 assume. We want you to know what you know. Do

11 you know?

12 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. Was Indiana, Pennsylvania, that plant,

15 populated by Fisher Scientific employees?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did they manufacture the items that

18 were manufactured there at Fisher Scientific

19 employees?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did they send them to wherever they

22 needed to be sent, those products they

23 manufactured?


25 It's vague and it calls for -- lacks foundation.


1 But you can answer if you know the answers to

2 these questions.

3 THE WITNESS: I never saw them take a

4 fume hood and put it in the box and put the box

5 on the truck.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Who do you think did that?


9 Calls for speculation. But you can answer if

10 you know.

11 THE WITNESS: I would assume that

12 Fisher --

13 MR. WILLIAMS: We don't want you to

14 assume. We want you to testify to what you

15 know.


17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. Who do you think? So it's equally

19 likely to you once produced -- Fisher Scientific

20 brought in non-Fisher Scientific employees to

21 package and ship Fisher Scientific products?

22 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object now

23 because your questions, Counsel, are becoming

24 really argumentative. You're on direct. So I'm

25 going to object to form. And you're badgering


1 the witness at this point, you're harassing him

2 and it's really getting inappropriate. I don't

3 appreciate it.

4 MR. HAKLAY: The only one who doesn't

5 want him to answer is you, Counsel. I don't

6 know what happened during lunch but you're not

7 letting him answer a single question.

8 MR. WILLIAMS: Can I finish? Can I

9 finish my objection or are you going to

10 interrupt me, too?

11 MR. HAKLAY: Take as long as you want.

12 But I'm not going to forget my question and I'm

13 not going to leave it without an answer.

14 MR. WILLIAMS: It's a ridiculous

15 question. You're asking questions that lack

16 foundation. You're asking the witness to

17 assume. We all want the witness to testify to

18 what he knows. But if you harass him and ask

19 argumentative questions, that's inappropriate on

20 direct, so I'm objecting to form.

21 BY MR. HAKLAY:

22 Q. Do you have an answer to my question,

23 sir?

24 A. I don't know who put the fume hoods in

25 a box.


1 Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that

2 during the production of fume hoods that Fisher

3 Scientific employees would have handled those

4 fume hoods during their production?

5 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Lacks

6 foundation. You can answer if you know.

7 THE WITNESS: If they produced the fume

8 hoods then I would assume -- not assuming, if

9 they produced the fume hoods they would have

10 handled the fume hoods.

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. Okay. Do you know whether any

13 monitoring as talked about in this letter for

14 the release and extent of release of airborne

15 fibers was ever done at your Indiana,



18 the form because you're mischaracterizing the

19 witness's testimony. This letter had nothing to

20 do with fume hoods. He's already testified to

21 that. So over my objection, if you understand

22 what's being asked you can answer it.

23 THE WITNESS: Repeat your question,

24 please.

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. Do you know whether any monitoring for

2 the release and extent of release of airborne

3 fibers was ever done in your Indiana,


5 A. I don't know. I don't recall.

6 Q. Did you ever order any such monitoring

7 for the release and extent of release of

8 airborne fibers?

9 A. I don't recall. I don't know.

10 Q. Okay. To your knowledge did anybody

11 else ever order the monitor -- any monitoring

12 for the release and extent of release of

13 airborne fibers at the Indiana, PA plant?


15 Q. Okay. We talked a little bit -- do you

16 need more water, sir? We'll get you more.

17 A. Thank you.

18 Q. Are you okay to go?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Do you believe that the

21 fact that whoever it was at OSHA informed you

22 that the standard you asked about didn't apply

23 to gloves and mats that were in your catalog

24 meant that there were no safety requirements or

25 safety concerns with regards to the gloves and


1 the mats?


3 Document speaks for itself. The question is

4 vague with regard to safety requirements or

5 concerns. But if you understand you can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: I'm going to try to

7 answer that this way -- I believe I've answered

8 it about four or five times, I believe, already

9 this morning -- I never personally had any

10 evidence that Fisher products that were

11 manufactured elsewhere and were sold through our

12 catalog posed a health hazard, period. Not only

13 did I not have that, there was no credible

14 evidence. There was no research.

15 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. You can put that

16 aside. It looks like you already did.

17 I'm going to mark the next document as

18 John Reilly 4. 3/1/11 is the date.

19 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 4, Fisher

20 Scientific Catalog 77, was then received and

21 marked for identification.)

22 MR. HAKLAY: Here's the marked copy for

23 you, sir, and a copy for your counsel.

24 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. And a copy for me. The cover appears

2 to say "Fisher Scientific Company Catalog 77,"

3 correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And I will represent that this is the

6 same document that was shown to Mr. Forte at his

7 deposition and it is an incomplete version

8 certainly of a 1977 catalog.

9 I'll direct you specifically and you

10 can take as much time as you need, if you need

11 it, to page -- on the bottom right of the page

12 it says 783. Obviously, we don't have the 782

13 pages, all of them, that preceded it. Here's

14 what it looks like. It's got no pictures on it

15 whatsoever. It's about halfway through.

16 A. I don't see any --

17 Q. Look on the bottom.

18 A. There we go, okay.

19 Q. Do you see a section in this catalog

20 that's entitled "For Asbestos Counting"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it appears to -- I'm sorry, I won't

23 say -- there's talk about something called a

24 phase contrast microscope that it says is a

25 "useful tool for monitoring air pollution


1 (according to OSHA requirements ) in plants

2 using asbestos products."

3 Did I read that small portion

4 correctly?

5 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Document

6 speaks for itself. But you can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. And do you know what a phase contrast

10 microscope is?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt what's

13 stated in Fisher Scientific's catalog that it's

14 useful for monitoring air pollution in plants

15 using asbestos products?

16 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Lacks

17 foundation. He said he doesn't know what it is.

18 The question lacks foundation. If you know the

19 answer you can tell him.

20 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the

21 product is.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt what it

24 says it is, that it's useful for measuring air

25 pollution in plants using asbestos products?


1 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Foundation

2 again. But if you know you can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I might have some doubt

4 whoever wrote that language, how do they know.

5 I didn't find any other OSHA experts in Fisher

6 Scientific Company.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. What do you mean "any other OSHA

9 experts"?

10 A. Besides myself.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. So whoever wrote that, I mean where's

13 that coming from? So yes, I could doubt that.

14 Q. Do you know whether or not OSHA

15 specifically ever stated that a phase contrast

16 microscope could be used to monitor air

17 pollution where asbestos products are

18 manufactured?

19 A. I'm not sure of that. But I will say

20 this, OSHA normally doesn't tell you what kind

21 of products they used to meet their

22 requirements, including monitoring.

23 Q. Okay. Do you know whether you or

24 anybody at Fisher Scientific that you have

25 knowledge of ever instructed anybody to monitor


1 air pollution in Indiana, Pennsylvania using a

2 phase contrast microscope?

3 A. No.

4 Q. No, you don't know, or no, it didn't

5 happen?

6 A. To my knowledge it didn't happen.

7 Q. It was my poorly worded question, I

8 apologize. Your no could have meant two things

9 and that was my fault.

10 If you just flip over the next page,

11 which is 1022.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. On the very top left of 1022 -- by the

14 way, this is in a section that appears to be

15 "Safety Equipment", correct? At the very top

16 left of the page.


18 Document speaks for itself. Lacks foundation.

19 But if you know you can answer.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. Here's where I'm looking, sir. You can

22 look wherever you want obviously.

23 A. That's what it says, Safety Equipment,

24 yes.

25 Q. And when I asked you about the phase


1 contrast microscope that appears to be that

2 page, part of the section called microscopes?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Back to page 1022, the very top item is

5 "Asbestos Gloves", correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And in that description of the asbestos

8 gloves, it again says, "meet OSHA requirements",

9 correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Just as it did in the 1974 catalog,

12 right?


14 Lacks foundation. And it's a misstatement

15 actually. But over my objection you can answer.

16 The document speaks for itself as well.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. Right?

19 A. It says, "meet OSHA requirements,"

20 right.

21 Q. It's the same phase we saw in 1974,

22 right?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. There's other asbestos products listed

25 on this page; aren't there?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. There's asbestos mittens, asbestos

3 finger cots and aluminum-coated asbestos gloves,

4 correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. All right. Back in 1977 did you see

7 this page, 1022?

8 A. I don't recall that. Again, I don't

9 recall dates and what I saw.

10 Q. Well, this is now the second part of a

11 catalog that we've seen together where it has

12 that same meet OSHA requirements or meets OSHA

13 requirements phrase for gloves that have

14 asbestos. No matter what they're called because

15 they state they have asbestos.

16 Do you recall whether or not you wrote

17 a memo or confronted or approached anyone about

18 this phrase in 1977?

19 A. I -- again, I don't want to -- I'm

20 going to answer that this way and -- OSHA

21 doesn't say in its standards when you're working

22 in front of a hot oven wearing a pair of asbestos

23 gloves. It doesn't say that. So it would be

24 erroneous to say these gloves meet OSHA

25 requirements. That's the wrong language.


1 Q. Do the OSHA requirements -- excuse me,

2 do the OSHA standards at the time as you were

3 familiar with them speak about acceptable levels

4 of asbestos fiber release from products?


6 the form. The question lacks foundation.

7 You're asking the witness to speculate about

8 regulations that aren't in front of him. If you

9 know the answer you can answer it.

10 THE WITNESS: I -- you know, I can't

11 say yes or no definite so --

12 BY MR. HAKLAY:

13 Q. Okay. What do you know about the OSHA

14 standards at the time you were working at Fisher

15 Scientific in the 1970s? I'm sorry, let me make

16 it a better question.

17 MR. WILLIAMS: Rather broad.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. What do you know about the OSHA

20 standards as with regards to asbestos at the

21 time you were working at Fisher Scientific in

22 the 1970s?

23 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. It's still

24 rather broad. But over my objection you can

25 answer it.


1 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm going on what I

2 think.

3 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, we don't want you

4 to speculate.

5 THE WITNESS: I know. So I don't know.

6 MR. WILLIAMS: If you recall.


8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. Do you believe you ever knew what the

10 OSHA standards spoke about -- the OSHA standards

11 about asbestos in the 1970s?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are you saying that so many years have

14 passed that you don't want to speculate because

15 you don't remember?

16 A. Yes. I don't remember what the wordage

17 was in an OSHA standard 35 years ago, yes.

18 Q. Okay. That's fine, sir. "I don't

19 know" or "I don't remember" is always an

20 acceptable answer, okay?

21 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, Counsel, you don't

22 need to coach the witness about what's

23 acceptable. Just ask your questions, okay?

24 BY MR. HAKLAY:

25 Q. Do you know whether in the 1970s OSHA


1 standards as they related to asbestos included a

2 permissible amount of asbestos fibers that could

3 be released into the air from a product?

4 A. I believe so.

5 Q. Do you have any idea whether these

6 specific gloves in the 1977 catalog that are

7 called asbestos gloves released more or less

8 than that OSHA standard during their normal

9 usage by ultimate consumers?


11 It's been asked and answered several times. But

12 you can answer it again.

13 THE WITNESS: I believe then, I believe

14 now, and I believe the day I die, the gloves

15 made of asbestos don't release fibers.

16 Therefore, they are no health hazard to the

17 user.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Don't release any fibers or don't

20 release asbestos fibers?

21 A. Don't release asbestos fibers.

22 Q. Do they release any fibers?

23 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. Now

24 we're talking about an incomplete factual

25 hypothetical that is based purely on


1 speculation. If you know specifically what's

2 being asked rather than vague generalities, you

3 can answer. But let's keep this in an actual

4 factual basis rather than just speculation.

5 Over my objection if you know what is being

6 asked of you, you can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: OSHA talks about asbestos

8 fibers. They don't talk about other fibers in

9 gloves.

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. Do you know --

12 A. I don't even know what the size of an

13 asbestos fiber would be.

14 Q. Do you know whether these gloves which

15 were sold through a Fisher Scientific catalog in

16 1977 whether during normal usage of this glove

17 any dusting particles or fibers from these

18 gloves would be released due to their normal

19 usage by customers?


21 Counsel, that's the exact same question you just

22 asked and it's been answered. But over my

23 objection I'll let him answer it again. You can

24 answer it again. But it has been asked and

25 answered. Let's not harass the witness by


1 asking the question over and over again because

2 you don't like the response. Over my objection

3 you can answer it one more time.

4 THE WITNESS: I don't believe gloves

5 then, today or tomorrow release asbestos fibers.

6 Therefore, I don't believe the gloves then,

7 today or tomorrow are a health hazard to anyone

8 that wears the gloves.

9 BY MR. HAKLAY:

10 Q. Okay. Sir, you can put that document

11 away, please.

12 When you testified that if you had seen

13 the phrase "meet or meets OSHA requirements" was

14 something you would have spoken to somebody

15 about, did you ever speak to any of your

16 superiors about the use of that phrase that you

17 eventually saw in the catalog?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Who did you speak to?

20 A. I don't recall that. The person in

21 charge of putting out the catalog.

22 Q. Did you ever speak to your superiors as

23 opposed to someone who was in charge of putting

24 out the catalog?

25 A. About safety issues, I spoke to


1 everyone from Ben Fisher, Chairman of the Board,

2 to the janitor, yes.

3 Q. Okay. Do you recall specifically doing

4 so with regards to the phrase "meet or meets

5 asbestos -- OSHA standards --"

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Excuse me, "meet or meets OSHA

8 requirements".

9 A. Yes. I said, don't use it.

10 Q. I'm going to mark the next document as

11 John Reilly 5, date 3/1/11. There's the

12 officially marked document for you, sir. One

13 for your counsel.


15 MR. HAKLAY: You're welcome.

16 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 5, a memo -


18 identification.)

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. This one-page document has memo head or

21 letterhead saying Central Offices/Pittsburgh,

22 Fisher Scientific Company. It appears to be to

23 a man named Phil Hunsucker, H-U-N-S-U-C-K-E-R,

24 from A.W., Anderson, A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N. The

25 subject is: Asbestos Sleeving Castaloy,


1 C-A-S-T-A-L-O-Y.

2 Sir, do you see at the bottom where it

3 says "CC"?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You know what "CC" means, right?

6 A. Carbon copy.

7 Q. Right. Back then they were probably

8 still using carbon copies. And there's three

9 names: Jim Philip, Jack Reilly and Walt

10 Sandvik, it's written S-A-N-D-V-I-K. Are you

11 the Jack Reilly that's referred to?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, today you were sworn in as John

14 Reilly. Is Jack a nickname that people use?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did people at Fisher Scientific call

17 you "Jack"?

18 A. Most of them, yes.

19 Q. Can you tell me who Phil Hunsucker was?

20 A. He was in marketing and sales.

21 Q. Was he the director of marketing?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Can you take a minute and read

24 that two paragraph memo to yourself.

25 A. Okay.


1 Q. Does this memo refer to the Indiana,

2 Pennsylvania plant?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. It actually just says "Indiana"

5 which is the thing I said this morning, correct?

6 A. No. It says "Indiana plant" in the

7 second paragraph.

8 Q. Right. But it doesn't say

9 Pennsylvania. It just calls it Indiana. But

10 that's the only Indiana plant you know of for

11 Fisher, correct?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. Okay. Did A.W. Anderson work in the

14 Indiana plant?

15 A. I believe he was in charge of Indiana.

16 Q. He was the head honcho there?

17 A. Yes. Among other duties. He was a

18 vice president.

19 Q. Of the whole company?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know what asbestos sleeving

22 castaloy is?

23 A. No, I don't recall that.

24 Q. Mr. Anderson speaks about competitors

25 of Fisher Scientific replacing asbestos with


1 other products, correct?

2 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm losing you here,

3 Counsel. Where are you looking?

4 MR. HAKLAY: In the first paragraph.

5 MR. WILLIAMS: Do you know --

6 THE WITNESS: Yes. He mentioned epoxy

7 sheets.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. And he talks about the first -- the

10 very first sentence talks about that some of

11 their -- one of their competitors -- let me just

12 read it. This is a silly way to do it. "We

13 have recently been alerted to some rather

14 significant orders that were placed with one of

15 our competitors for a rather large quantity of

16 quarter inch four-by-eight epoxy sheets.

17 Investigation of that discloses that several

18 national concerns have issued directives within

19 their organizations to remove from their

20 facilities all products containing asbestos. In

21 this case they are replacing the interiors of

22 fume hoods where transite is used with epoxy."

23 And so I won't interrupt myself again

24 and just ask all my questions at once, the only

25 other paragraphs reads "Regardless of a


1 Department of Labor statement, it does not

2 appear to me to be in keeping with our Fisher

3 image to sell to a customer a product that we

4 know is potentially hazardous. Beyond that, I

5 do not wish to handle asbestos in the Indiana

6 plant in any form if there is a suitable

7 substitute. We are in the process of developing

8 a substitute for the transite used in our

9 Indiana products."

10 Did I read those two paragraphs

11 correctly, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know what Department of Labor

14 statement is referred to in the beginning of

15 that second paragraph?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you recall receiving this memo that

18 you were cc'd back on in 1977?

19 A. No.

20 Q. During your time at Fisher did you

21 generally -- was it an efficient enough

22 operation that you generally received memos that

23 you were cc'd?


25 That's vague and calls for speculation. If you


1 know what's being asked you can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to

5 believe that you wouldn't have received this if

6 you were cc'd on it back then?

7 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection. But you

8 can answer if you know.

9 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't have a

10 reason to believe.

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. Okay. As you've told me that

13 Mr. Anderson was the person in charge of the

14 Indiana plant, does this refresh your

15 recollection as to whether asbestos-containing

16 products were manufactured in the Indiana,

17 Pennsylvania plant?

18 A. He's saying it does.

19 Q. Okay. At the time did you in any way

20 attempt to contradict him and say, "Hey, A.W.,

21 we don't use asbestos there"?


23 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt

24 Mr. Anderson's writing in this memo that

25 asbestos was used in products that were


1 manufactured in the Indiana plant?

2 A. I don't doubt it. At least he felt

3 that. I don't doubt it.

4 Q. Would Mr. Anderson's duties have been

5 -- among Mr. Anderson's duties would be to know

6 what products were manufactured in the plant he

7 ran and what components made up those products?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you have known that as well as

10 him at the time or would he have known more than

11 you?

12 A. Known what?

13 Q. What was made there and what specific

14 components went into those products.


16 About what someone else may have known. If you

17 know the answer you can answer it.

18 THE WITNESS: I didn't know every

19 product that was made in Indiana, no.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. Okay. Do you see where Mr. Anderson in

22 the second paragraph says that it wouldn't be

23 keeping with the Fisher image to "sell to a

24 customer a product that we know is potentially

25 hazardous"; do you see that?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it fair to say then that Fisher knew

3 that the fume hoods that contained asbestos were

4 potentially hazardous?


6 It's not what the document says. It's a

7 mischaracterization of what the document says.

8 Over my objection, you can answer if you know.

9 THE WITNESS: I'm going to answer it

10 this way: Fisher Scientific, including

11 Mr. Anderson, were very moralistic people. It

12 was a moral company. And if they knew anything

13 was potentially hazardous to customers, they

14 would have done something about it.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. Okay. Do you know -- Mr. Anderson

17 speaks about developing a substitute for the

18 asbestos transite here. Do you know how many

19 years Fisher produced fume hoods that contained

20 asbestos?

21 A. No.

22 Q. As a result of receiving this memo as a

23 carbon copy, do you recall whether or not you

24 picked up the phone and spoke to Mr. Anderson or

25 contacted him in some other way?



2 Q. Do you know whether you or anybody else

3 after receiving this memo ever contacted or

4 communicated with Mr. Anderson and instructed

5 him to do monitoring of asbestos release from

6 fume hoods?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Okay. Did you ever do it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you believe that the OSHA standards

11 that you've referred to earlier would have

12 applied to the production of asbestos-containing

13 fume hoods in your Indiana, PA plant?

14 A. If -- if a fume hood was using asbestos

15 products in its manufacture, yes, OSHA standards

16 would have applied.

17 Q. In attempting to comply with OSHA as

18 regards to the production of fume hoods in

19 Indiana, PA, do you know any other way to find

20 out whether Fisher Scientific was in compliance,

21 other than monitoring release of fibers during

22 the production process?

23 A. Sure.

24 Q. How else would you --

25 A. If the material they were putting in


1 the fume hood contained asbestos and if they

2 were cutting it, drilling it, sawing it, sure.

3 Q. Other than monitoring for release in

4 the air, how else would Fisher Scientific have

5 known whether the release of asbestos-containing

6 dust in their Indiana, PA plant exceeded OSHA

7 standards?


9 Calls for speculation. But if you know you can

10 answer.

11 THE WITNESS: They wouldn't have.

12 BY MR. HAKLAY:

13 Q. And as far as you know, no monitoring

14 was done, correct?

15 A. Not that I recall.

16 Q. Okay. You can put that aside, sir.

17 Thank you.

18 How much time do we have? Why don't we

19 take a break right now. We'll take five minutes.

20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of

21 tape three in today's deposition and the time

22 now is 2:09.


24 from 2:09 p.m. to 2:21 p.m.)



1 beginning of tape four in today's deposition.

2 The time now is 2:21 p.m. and we are back on the

3 record.

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. I'm going to mark as John Reilly 6 with

8 the day 3/1/11 on it, this next document, a

9 one-page document. I'll pass you the official

10 copy.

11 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 6, a letter -


13 identification.)

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. So far I've been good about having

16 three copies of everything.

17 Sir, is this letter addressed to Fisher

18 Scientific Company from Concerned Seventh Grade

19 Science Students?

20 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Document

21 speaks for itself.


23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. And does it state that it's from -- in

25 the upper right-hand corner -- Northeastern


1 Junior High School in Manchester, PA, dated

2 October 11, 1978?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And under Northeastern Junior

5 High School, it states, Charles R. Kohler

6 K-O-H-L-E-R. Before 1978 had you ever heard of

7 Mr. Kohler?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I'm going to read the one paragraph and

10 then ask you a series of questions about this

11 document. "Dear Sir: We are a group of

12 concerned seventh grade students from

13 Northeastern Junior High School. We are curious

14 about asbestos because we will be doing several

15 experiments with asbestos pads and are very

16 concerned about the fact that asbestos may cause

17 cancer. We would like to know if you have any

18 ideas about using an alternate chemical instead

19 of asbestos. Why aren't you warning the people

20 if asbestos is dangerous? Could you possibly

21 send us information on asbestos or an alternate

22 chemical. We would really like to know if

23 you're doing anything about asbestos pads."

24 Did I read the one paragraph correctly?

25 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Documents


1 speaks for itself. You can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. Okay. Then the -- above the -- below

5 the letterhead of Northeastern School District,

6 Mt. Wolf, Pennsylvania, 17347. And above the

7 body of the typed letter itself there appear to

8 be handwritten notes, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. First it says -- and these words

11 are crossed out -- "Jim Cairns, C-A-I-R-N-S, any

12 thoughts? Al."

13 Are those the words that are crossed

14 out?

15 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Foundation.

16 But if you know you can answer.


18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Do you know who Jim Cairns is or

20 what --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who was Jim Cairns?

23 A. He was in charge of the educational

24 materials division in Chicago.

25 Q. Okay. Was that a division that


1 produced products, meaning manufactured, or just

2 a catalog division of the company that just sold

3 products from others?

4 A. To the best of my recollection, just

5 sold mostly products from catalogs from others.

6 Not real pure manufacturing.

7 Q. In any case, to the extent this letter

8 refers to asbestos pads, I think you've already

9 informed us that those were not products

10 manufactured by Fisher Scientific but rather

11 sold through a catalog, correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. And underneath the crossed

14 out handwriting is more handwriting. It says in

15 all caps, "Jack Reilly" and then in script, "How

16 do we answer this? Appreciate your expert

17 advice. Thanks. Al Heidrich, H-E-I-D-R-I-C-H."

18 Did I pronounce his name right? Is it

19 Heidrich?

20 A. I'm not sure. Heidrich. Heidrich.

21 Q. Did you know Al Heidrich?

22 A. I know the name.

23 Q. Do you know what he did back in 1978 at


25 A. Specifically, no.


1 Q. Did you in the course of your ordinary

2 dealings with him have any kind of -- I'm sorry,

3 did you in the course of your duties as

4 corporate safety director have contact on any

5 kind of a regular basis with Al Heidrich?

6 A. Not regular. Probably when I went to

7 EMD in Chicago I'd deal with him.

8 Q. EMD was one of your manufacturing

9 plants, correct, the educational one?

10 A. It was an educational materials

11 location.

12 Q. Okay. It was the headquarters of that

13 division, not a manufacturing plant?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I apologize, that's what you told me

16 this morning.

17 Do you recall receiving this letter

18 with the note written to you, Jack Reilly, in

19 1978?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Have you seen this document in the last

22 two weeks?

23 A. I believe I may have when I looked at

24 some documents, yes.

25 Q. And did you get a chance to read the


1 entire one paragraph?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you have any memory of anything that

4 relates in any way to this letter or this

5 request from these concerned seventh grade

6 science students?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. Then that may make the

9 answers easy, but I have to ask some questions

10 anyway.

11 Do you know how long after October 11,

12 1978, when this is dated, that Al Heidrich

13 referred this letter to you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Before 1978 of October 11th of that

16 year, had you ever received or been made aware

17 of similar letters from school kids?

18 A. No.


20 Lack of foundation. Assumes facts.

21 BY MR. HAKLAY:

22 Q. The handwriting from Al Heidrich to

23 you, Jack Reilly, says, "Appreciate your expert

24 advice." In the body of this letter, the typed

25 body, do you see anything that would require


1 expert advice from you?


3 question's vague. Lacks foundation. Assumes

4 facts. If you understand what's being asked.

5 THE WITNESS: I'm going to try to

6 answer it this way -- I've said this before I'll

7 say it again -- I don't believe asbestos pads

8 caused a health hazard or could cause a health

9 hazard.

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. Now, I'm about to ask you something

12 that's going to be objected to. Did you ever

13 have a discussion with Mr. Heidrich where he

14 explained to you why he referred this to you?

15 A. I don't remember that, no.

16 Q. I asked a better question than I

17 thought I asked. That's the first one.

18 MR. WILLIAMS: Got to keep you

19 guessing.

20 MR. HAKLAY: That's okay.

21 MR. WILLIAMS: Nothing objectionable

22 about that, Counsel.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Were you aware before October of 1978

25 that Fisher Scientific marketed and sold


1 asbestos-containing pads?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Did you know that Fisher

4 Scientific had marketed and sold gauze pads with

5 asbestos centers that were used in educational

6 places by such people as science students?

7 A. I believe I answered that before. I

8 only recall asbestos gloves and asbestos pads.

9 Q. Okay. When you got this letter do you

10 know whether or not you spoke to anyone about

11 what's written in this letter?

12 A. No, I don't know that specifically.

13 But I would have.

14 Q. Who do you think you would have spoken

15 to?


17 and caution you not to speculate. But to the

18 extent you have a recollection, please give it.

19 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have a

20 recollection.

21 BY MR. HAKLAY:

22 Q. Okay. Was your previous answer that

23 you believe you would have based on anything

24 other than what you believe your general

25 practice to be generally back then?


1 A. I'm a father and grandfather, I love

2 children, I think they're God's greatest

3 creation, and if I would have received this

4 letter from a group of concerned students, I

5 would have done something.

6 Q. Okay. Are you -- I appreciate your

7 appreciation for children and grandchildren.

8 Are you saying that you don't believe you

9 received this?


11 the form. He just testified he didn't recall.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. Okay. A moment ago you stated that

15 because of your love for children and

16 grandchildren and the treasure that they are on

17 this earth that you would have done something if

18 you received this.


20 Q. Do you know whether you did anything?

21 A. No, I don't because I don't recall

22 receiving it.

23 Q. Okay. You're just saying if you did

24 remember and had you had received it, then you

25 would have done something?


1 A. Yes.

2 MR. WILLIAMS: Just let me object to

3 the form. It's vague. "Done something" is

4 vague. If you understand what's being asked

5 when he says "done something", you can answer.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Do you believe that these are questions

8 -- excuse me, as a safety director of Fisher

9 Scientific do you believe that these are

10 questions that are impossible to answer for

11 these students?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you believe that these are fairly

14 simple questions that can be addressed to --

15 answers can be addressed to these kids?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You can put that one to the side. I

18 might ask you to look at it again, but you can

19 put it on the pile for now.

20 I'm going to mark as John Reilly 7 on

21 3/1/11 another one-page document.



24 identification.)

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. There's a copy for your counsel.

2 Is this a letter from you on Fisher

3 Scientific Company letterhead dated November 6,

4 1978?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is it addressed to OSHA?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Have you seen this letter in the last

9 two weeks?

10 A. I may have.

11 Q. Do you recall whether you saw it in the

12 last two weeks?

13 A. I think I probably did.

14 Q. Okay. And it's addressed to

15 "Gentlemen". I'll read it to be fair to you.

16 "I would appreciate your clarification of the

17 asbestos standard, Subpart Z, 1910.1001. I

18 interpret the standard to apply to any process

19 involving the release of airborne asbestos

20 fibers. What are your comments concerning

21 products that are made of asbestos? I am

22 speaking about certain laboratory products such

23 as gloves, finger cots, mats, fire blankets,

24 fume hood liners, gaskets, et cetera. These

25 products do not ordinarily liberate airborne


1 fibers, however, age and usage can cause

2 dusting.

3 My real question is, do these and

4 related-type products come under 1910.1001?

5 Thank you very much for your cooperation. Very

6 truly yours, John R. Reilly, Corporate Safety

7 Director."

8 Did I read that correctly before I ask

9 you questions about it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall writing this letter to

12 OSHA?

13 A. I recall writing -- having

14 correspondence with OSHA pertaining to asbestos.

15 Q. Do you recall specifically this letter?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. Now, you speak in this letter

18 about processes involving the release of

19 airborne asbestos fibers and then state that

20 you're talking about certain laboratory

21 products. Now we've already seen gloves and

22 finger cots in what you call a catalog, right?

23 A. Uh-hum.

24 Q. Yes?

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. It's just one of those rules. Are mats

2 the same kind of product you're talking about

3 that you sold through the catalog?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. Now, you hadn't mentioned fire

6 blankets. Does that refresh your recollection

7 as to whether Fisher Scientific marketed and

8 sold asbestos-containing fire blankets through

9 its catalogs?

10 A. We sold fire blankets through our

11 catalog. Whether they contained asbestos, I do

12 not recall. I do not know.

13 Q. Okay. All you know is whatever it says

14 here?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And it says gaskets. Do you

17 know whether Fisher Scientific at that time sold

18 through its catalogs asbestos-containing --

19 A. I don't recall what gaskets are.

20 Q. -- gaskets. Okay. Got to wait for me

21 to finish is all I'm trying to say.

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him get his question

23 out.

24 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. Your answer is fine. Did we get all

2 that? Correct, sir, that's what you said?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But in this list of what you've

5 described as laboratory products earlier today

6 like gloves or pads, it also says fume hood

7 liners.

8 Now, I thought that earlier today and

9 this afternoon you had differentiated between

10 the laboratory products and the fume hood liners

11 that were produced in your Indiana, PA plant?

12 A. I did.


14 the form. It's a mischaracterization of his

15 testimony. It's talking about fume hoods

16 before. He's referring to fume hood liners in

17 this letter. Over my objection, if you

18 understand what you're being asked.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. Is this letter inconsistent in any way

21 with what you said earlier today?


23 That's vague. If you understand you can answer.

24 THE WITNESS: If I understand you

25 correctly, I did not address fume hoods earlier


1 when I talked about gloves and mats.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. Right. We did talk about fume hoods

4 with regard to your Indiana, PA plant, correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And we did not long ago see a document

7 where Mr. Anderson who was in charge of that

8 plant talked about not wanting to use asbestos

9 in products made in that plant anymore, correct?


11 the form. That's a mischaracterization of that

12 document. If you understand exactly what's

13 being asked, you can answer it.

14 THE WITNESS: Well, I saw a document

15 that Bill Anderson raised some concerns.

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. Okay. And referred to the usage of

18 asbestos during the production processes in

19 Indiana, correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. All right. When you wrote fume hood

22 liners in this letter to OSHA, what were you

23 talking about?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Okay. It's just been too long?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. To this point -- I'm sorry,

3 the previous -- the letter from the school

4 children in Mt. Wolf, Pennsylvania from

5 Northeastern Junior High School was dated as we

6 saw October 11, 1978. This is now November 6,

7 1978, 26 days later, using October as a 31 day

8 month. To this point, do you have any memory as

9 to whether anybody had answered what you agreed

10 were the straightforward questions from those

11 children?



14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. Do you know whether you had answered

16 the letter from the children as of November 6th?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. In the first paragraph -- in the first

19 paragraph, the last time after you mentioned all

20 the products, the gloves, et cetera, the fume

21 hood liners, et cetera, you wrote "these

22 products do not ordinarily liberate airborne

23 fibers, however, age and usage can cause

24 dusting."

25 Now, what did you mean by "age and


1 usage"?

2 A. That's not my language. That's not

3 Jack Reilly when I look at that. First of all,

4 I never ever used the word "dusting".

5 Q. Do you know --

6 A. OSHA doesn't use the word "dusting".

7 MR. WILLIAMS: Just let him finish his

8 answer, Counselor.

9 MR. HAKLAY: I stopped.

10 MR. WILLIAMS: Don't point at him.

11 MR. HAKLAY: Hold on, sir. I'm not

12 pointing at him.

13 MR. WILLIAMS: You are pointing at him

14 right now.

15 MR. HAKLAY: You go ahead, sir.

16 THE WITNESS: I believe that someone in

17 marketing infused their language with my letter.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Okay. Is there a signature on this

20 letter?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Whose signature is that?

23 A. Mine.

24 Q. Does that appear to be an actual

25 signature that you placed?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It looks like yours?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As corporate safety director, were you

5 responsible for anything that went out under

6 your signature?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So even if you got input from whoever

9 you wanted to get input from, a final product

10 with your signature was your responsibility,

11 correct?


13 Responsibility is vague and undefined in your

14 question. If you understand what's being asked,

15 you can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: The responsibility of

17 this letter rests with me.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Okay. That is what I was asking, thank

20 you.

21 And when it says "age and usage can

22 cause dusting", do you know what the word

23 "dusting" means regardless of whether OSHA ever

24 uses it?

25 A. No. Because I never used it.


1 Q. Do you know whether or not asbestos

2 gloves, to use an example we've used a lot

3 today, with age can crack, deteriorate and

4 release dust and fibers?


6 Incomplete factual hypothetical. But over my

7 objection, if you understand you can answer.

8 I'll state it's asked and answered several times

9 already. But over my objection, you can answer

10 it.

11 THE WITNESS: I don't think gloves

12 release asbestos fibers.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. Do you believe that gloves with age and

15 usage can deteriorate such that they released

16 something that looks like dust?

17 MR. WILLIAMS: It's asked and answered.

18 It's the exact question you just asked now. But

19 you can answer it again.

20 THE WITNESS: I'm not an asbestos

21 expert. I don't know what gloves would do if

22 you cut them in half or chewed on them or jumped

23 on them.

24 MR. WILLIAMS: Counsel, let him finish.

25 THE WITNESS: And dusting is not my


1 language.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. Okay. In this letter that went out

4 under your signature that says dusting, please

5 let me preface the question, I'm not talking

6 about unnatural actions like cutting something

7 in half, I'm talking about in the ordinary use

8 of asbestos-containing gloves for their intended

9 purpose to be worn by people on their hands,

10 over time do you know whether any dust, no

11 matter what it's made of, would come off of

12 those gloves as a result of deterioration or the

13 natural process of it being older?

14 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Let me get

15 my objection out.

16 THE WITNESS: No.

17 MR. WILLIAMS: Incomplete factual

18 hypothetical. Vague. Without foundation. If

19 you understand what's being asked and -- asked

20 and answered again. But you can answer it now.


22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. Have you ever reviewed in your review

24 of whatever literature you reviewed relating to

25 asbestos any studies relating to release of any


1 kind of dust from the ordinary usage of

2 asbestos-containing gloves?

3 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Vague.

4 Witness has already said he doesn't understand

5 the word "dust". But over my objection, if you

6 know what's being asked you can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: There was no literature

8 to my knowledge. No research, no statements, no

9 publicity, no books. No anything under release

10 of fibers or dust from asbestos gloves.

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. Okay. Do you recognize that sentence

13 that starts "these products"? The last sentence

14 of the first paragraph that we're just

15 discussing part of. Do you recognize any of

16 that sentence as having been your writing?

17 A. It appears not to be my way of

18 thinking, my way of writing, my way of

19 communicating.

20 Q. When you say -- I don't know if you

21 were guessing -- you will tell me -- when you

22 say it appears to be a collaboration or you got

23 input from someone in marketing, did I get that

24 correctly?

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. Do you know who you would have or who

2 you did confer with on the marketing side of

3 Fisher Scientific before writing this letter?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Would you ordinarily care what

6 marketing thought about letters to and from

7 OSHA?


9 That's vague. But if you understand you can

10 answer.

11 THE WITNESS: If they understood

12 something in the marketing arena which I didn't,

13 I'd listen to their input, whether I was writing

14 the letter to OSHA or to Judge Judy.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. Well, do you believe that a marketing

17 person would have more knowledge of what does or

18 doesn't happen to the gloves they market with

19 age and usage?


21 This is all based on speculation without any

22 foundation. If you know, if you have personal

23 knowledge, you can tell to it. If you don't,

24 don't guess or speculate.

25 THE WITNESS: I have no real knowledge


1 of that.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. Okay. All you know is it fair to say

4 is that whether or not you conferred with anyone

5 from marketing or anyone else, you included this

6 sentence about age and usage can cause dusting

7 in a letter you sent to OSHA, correct?

8 A. I included that sentence, yes.

9 Q. Okay. You can put that one aside on

10 top of the other ones. I'm going to mark the

11 next exhibit as John Reilly 8 with today's date

12 3/1/11 on it.



15 identification.)

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. There's your copy, Mr. Williams.

18 There's one for you. It appears to be an

19 interoffice memo from within the Central

20 Offices/Pittsburgh Scientific Company, correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. It's to Al Heidrich from Jack Reilly-CO

23 dated November 22, 1978. Is that you, the Jack

24 Reilly referred to there?

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. What does the "CO" stand for?

2 A. Company -- corporate offices.

3 Q. Okay. And the subject is the EMD

4 Catalog-OSHA Terminology. EMD catalog you've

5 already told us is the educational materials

6 division, correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And it says, "Dear Al". This is the

9 same Al that handwrote the note to you on the

10 letter from the school kids, correct?

11 A. Repeat that, please.

12 Q. It's the same Al that handwrote the

13 note to you on the letter from the school kids?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. "Dear Al: Per our recent

16 telephone conversations, we legally cannot use

17 the words 'OSHA approved' in any printed

18 material, and for the record, neither can our

19 competition. OSHA does not approved products,

20 and, in fact, we could be fined by the Federal

21 Trade Commission for an unfair trade practice.

22 I am specifically referring to the asbestos mat

23 shown on page 1071 of your 79 catalog.

24 I also noticed the language, 'in full

25 compliance with OSHA' on page 1016, catalog


1 Number 10-027-20.

2 Al, we can effectively use OSHA as a

3 marketing tool, however, we must be careful with

4 our advertising and wording. Please let me work

5 with you on all future safety literature.

6 Regards, Jack."

7 Did I read that correctly for the

8 record?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Do you recall writing this memo

11 back in 1978?

12 A. Not this particular memo, but I recall,

13 as I mentioned earlier about the terminology,

14 OSHA approved is a no-no.

15 Q. Okay. And you've told us this morning

16 you recall telling someone about it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know of any other documents that

19 like this show you telling someone about it?

20 A. Not that I recall.

21 Q. All right. Is this the kind of thing

22 you were thinking of this morning when you said

23 you recall writing things like that or talking

24 to people about things like that?

25 A. I recall talking to people and writing


1 to people about the terminology "OSHA approved"

2 and "meets OSHA requirements", yes.

3 Q. Okay. Do you know -- to your

4 knowledge, by this date, November 22nd, 1978,

5 had anybody at Fisher Scientific written back to

6 those school children in Mt. Wolf, Pennsylvania

7 and answered what you called their simple

8 questions?

9 A. I do not recall that.

10 Q. Is the fact that -- would wire gauze

11 with asbestos center pads that would be used by

12 school children be part of the educational

13 materials division?

14 A. Probably, yes. Yes.

15 Q. What connection, if any, is there

16 between the fact that a letter from school

17 children was forwarded on to you by Al Heidrich

18 and the fact that you were now writing Al about

19 using -- about the EMD catalog in OSHA

20 terminology?

21 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. Assumes facts

22 that there's any connection. Over my objection,

23 if you know.

24 THE WITNESS: I don't think there's any

25 connection.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. You think those two instances are

3 unconnected to each other?

4 A. Separate issues.

5 Q. You just happened to see the '79

6 catalog and felt the need to write to Al, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I saw you go like that, but she needs

9 to hear it.

10 Do you recall whether or not by

11 November 22nd you were still in contact with

12 anybody regarding responding to these school

13 children?

14 A. No, I don't recall.

15 Q. If you could take out -- that's number

16 -- back to number 6 from the kids. The kids

17 write that they're concerned about the fact that

18 asbestos may cause cancer. Do you see that,

19 sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. WILLIAMS: Where are you reading

22 from? I don't see it.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. On the third and fourth line. What

25 would be the straightforward answer you would


1 give to those children?


3 Assumes facts. Calls for speculation. But over

4 my objection, you can answer. It's been asked

5 and answered several times.

6 THE WITNESS: They don't cause cancer.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. Asbestos generally or the gauze mats --

9 A. What they're speaking about does not

10 cause cancer.

11 Q. Okay. What would you have written to

12 these children to their request that they would

13 like to know if you have any ideas about using

14 an alternate chemical instead of asbestos?

15 A. If I answered those children, I would

16 have said these pads do not cause cancer.

17 However, I will look into your request of an

18 alternate product.

19 Q. And when they ask why aren't you

20 warning the people if asbestos is dangerous,

21 what would you have told him?

22 A. It doesn't cause cancer so it's not

23 dangerous.

24 Q. When they ask for information on

25 asbestos or an alternate chemical, would you


1 have sent some to them?


3 This is without any foundation. It's based on

4 speculation. If you have a specific

5 recollection of whether you did that, you can

6 testify to it, but don't speculate.

7 THE WITNESS: No. I'm not going to

8 speculate.

9 BY MR. HAKLAY:

10 Q. You said that all these questions were

11 simple and wouldn't be hard to answer these

12 children, correct?

13 A. I didn't say they were simple. I said

14 that this product that these children are

15 talking about does not cause cancer.

16 Q. When I asked you about the questions

17 the children were asking, you said that they

18 were straightforward and could be answered,

19 correct?


21 THE WITNESS: Yes. It doesn't cause

22 cancer.

23 MR. WILLIAMS: Asked and answered.

24 BY MR. HAKLAY:

25 Q. If you would have answered these


1 children, would you have sent them information

2 on asbestos as they required -- as they

3 requested?


5 It's based on speculation without any foundation

6 and fact. If you have a specific recollection

7 of doing it, you can testify to it, but don't

8 guess.

9 THE WITNESS: I'm not guessing. I

10 would have said these -- this product does not

11 cause cancer, but per your request I am sending

12 you information on an alternative.

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. Okay. And in the last sentence they

15 say they would really like to know if you're

16 doing anything about asbestos pads. What reply

17 would you give to the children about that?

18 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. Without any

19 foundation. Vague. Calls for speculation. If

20 you know you can answer.

21 THE WITNESS: Dear Children: It

22 doesn't cause cancer. However, I share your

23 concern and I'll look into some alternatives for

24 you.

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. Okay. That did not take you very long

2 here 33 years later to come up with. Do you

3 believe it would have been that easy to write

4 that letter back in 1978?

5 A. Yes.


7 That's argumentative.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. Do you believe that the children

10 merited a response back in 1978?


12 Argumentative. Assumes facts. No foundation.

13 Over my objection, you can answer if you have a


15 THE WITNESS: I personally believe that

16 any time you ask me something in writing, you

17 deserve an answer whether you're out on a limb

18 or not. You deserve an answer.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. When Al Heidrich asked you -- that he

21 would appreciate how do we answer this,

22 appreciate your expert advice, did you tell him

23 to answer it the way you just told me you would

24 answered it?

25 A. I don't recall this letter.


1 Q. Okay. All right. That's fair. That's

2 fine. You can put that back where it belongs

3 and you can put those on top of it, sir. I'm

4 going to mark this as John Reilly 9, 3/1/11.



7 identification.)

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. This appears to be a one-page

10 interoffice memo from the Central Offices of

11 Pittsburgh of the Fisher Scientific Company to

12 Joel Fontaine, F-O-N-T-A-I-N-E, from Jack Reilly

13 at the Central Offices dated 11/28/1978. The

14 subject is Asbestos Products.

15 Is that you, Jack Reilly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who is Joel Fontaine?

18 A. He was in marketing.

19 Q. Do you know where he was in marketing?

20 A. No. Maybe Pittsburgh. But no.

21 Q. I'm going to read the very short memo

22 and then ask you a series of questions and then

23 move on to the next one. "Dear Joel: Per our

24 recent telephone conversation, the following

25 comments are related to the current status of


1 asbestos products: One, we are both a

2 manufacturer and a distributor of asbestos

3 products; two, attached is correspondence

4 between myself and OSHA concerning asbestos,

5 laboratory products. Also, I wrote to OSHA for

6 an update on November 6, 1978; three, we are

7 currently conducting a study to determine the

8 feasibility of continuing or discontinuing the

9 manufacture and/or distribution of products that

10 contain asbestos. Regards, Jack."


12 you questions about it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall authoring this memo?

15 A. This particular memo to Joel, no. But

16 I do recall addressing the subject of

17 discontinuance.

18 Q. Is that your signature there at the

19 bottom that says "Jack"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you wrote that Fisher Scientific

22 was a manufacturer of asbestos products, what

23 were you referring to?


25 He's already indicated he doesn't recall writing


1 the document. But if you have a specific

2 recollection you can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I don't have a specific

4 recollection. I only have conjecture.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. We've seen some evidence from

7 Mr. Anderson of asbestos use in products

8 manufactured in Indiana, PA. Do you know of any

9 other manufacturing facilities owned by Fisher

10 Scientific where asbestos might have been used?

11 A. No.

12 Q. This is now almost two months after the

13 children dated their letter that was forwarded

14 to you by Al Heidrich. Do you know whether or

15 not anyone answered these children by November

16 28, 1978?

17 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just object. It

18 assumes facts that the letter you're referring

19 to from the children have anything to do with

20 Reilly Exhibit 9. But over my objection, you

21 can answer.

22 THE WITNESS: I don't have any

23 recollection, no.

24 BY MR. HAKLAY:

25 Q. As a manufacturer of asbestos products,


1 did the OSHA -- did the then existing OSHA

2 standards apply to Fisher Scientific?


4 Vague. If you know what's being asked you can

5 answer it.

6 THE WITNESS: If we manufactured a

7 product that contained asbestos, certainly we

8 would have to comply with the OSHA asbestos

9 standard.

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. All right. Have you become aware at

12 any time since then until today of any steps the

13 safety department or any other part of Fisher

14 Scientific took to see whether their

15 manufactured products were in compliance with

16 then existing OSHA standards?


18 It's vague. It's unlimited in time.

19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I can't answer

20 that. I don't know.

21 BY MR. HAKLAY:

22 Q. Did you take any steps to ensure that

23 the products manufactured -- excuse me, did you

24 take any steps to ensure that the asbestos

25 products manufactured by Fisher Scientific as of


1 November 28, 1978 were in compliance with then

2 existing OSHA standards?

3 A. Specifically, I do not recall.


5 assumes facts and it's vague.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Do you know of any steps taken by

8 anybody other than yourself as of November 28,

9 1978 to ensure that Fisher Scientific was in

10 compliance with then existing OSHA standards

11 with regards to its manufacture of asbestos

12 products?

13 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection. But you

14 can answer.

15 THE WITNESS: Specifically, no.

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. Can you think of anything that would

18 refresh your recollection or lead you to

19 discover documents or other evidence that might

20 show that you or anyone else took any steps to

21 ensure that Fisher Scientific was in compliance

22 with then existing OSHA standards with regards

23 to its manufacture of asbestos products?

24 A. At this point in time, no.

25 Q. Okay. This document refers to a


1 November 6 letter, so let's leave that aside

2 because we looked at that.

3 The conducting of a study to determine

4 the feasibility of continuing or discontinuing

5 the manufacture and/or distribution of products

6 that contained asbestos, when did that -- when

7 did you first learn about the study?

8 A. I can't answer that specifically. I

9 can only say that I around this time or earlier

10 thought that we should discontinue selling

11 products that are not manufactured by us that

12 contain asbestos. Don't sell them.

13 Q. Why?

14 A. Because the future headaches of that

15 adverse publicity, of frivolous lawsuits, of

16 tons of correspondence of hoopla, of clamor and I

17 could go on and on. It's not worth it.

18 Asbestos then was like green is today.

19 Everybody's on the bandwagon. Let's get out of

20 the business and put those headaches to bed.

21 Q. Do you know what mesothelioma is?

22 A. I believe it is a form of cancer.

23 Q. Do you know what the causes of

24 mesothelioma are?

25 A. I believe it is asbestos.


1 Q. Had you ever heard of mesothelioma when

2 you were a corporate safety director in 1978?

3 A. I believe so.

4 Q. Okay. In what context had you heard of

5 it?

6 A. Through my research.

7 Q. What research was that?

8 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. It's been

9 asked and answered multiple times. Over my

10 objection, you can answer.

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. I'll make a better question. What

13 specifically do you recall reviewing that

14 mentioned mesothelioma?

15 A. Research material. I mean I can't tell

16 you whether it was occupational hazards or

17 chemical news or the insurance newsletter or

18 Western Pennsylvania but --

19 Q. Since you had seen materials in 1978,

20 was Fisher Scientific by that time aware that

21 asbestos exposure could cause mesothelioma?


23 That question is vague and undefined. If you

24 understand specifically what's being asked, you

25 can answer.


1 THE WITNESS: I was aware at that time

2 that if products released airborne fibers that

3 were inhaled and ingested in the quantity set by

4 scientists that there was a possibility of

5 cancer.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Does that possibility of cancer include

8 the possibility of mesothelioma?


10 There's no foundation. Calls for expert witness

11 testimony. If you know the answers to these

12 questions you can answer them, but don't

13 speculate.

14 THE WITNESS: Again, I'm not an

15 asbestos expert. I believe mesothelioma is a

16 form of cancer.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. So yes.

20 Q. Okay. Were you the person with the

21 most working knowledge of asbestos back in 1978

22 at Fisher Scientific?

23 A. Yes.


25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. So to the extent that you were not or

2 are not an expert, Fisher Scientific to your

3 knowledge didn't employ any experts in the

4 subject of asbestos specifically?


6 Calls for speculation. If you know you can

7 answer.

8 THE WITNESS: I'm going to say again,

9 we wouldn't hire an expert in the form of

10 products that we distributed like gloves because

11 they didn't cause cancer.

12 BY MR. HAKLAY:

13 Q. Okay. And as corporate safety director

14 you didn't believe that Fisher Scientific

15 required expertise beyond yours to reach that

16 conclusion or to verify that conclusion that

17 none of the products you distributed or made

18 caused cancer?

19 A. That's --


21 in. Other than everything he's testified to in

22 terms of all the people he talked to and writing

23 the US government, other than those people, you

24 can answer the question.

25 THE WITNESS: There was nobody in the


1 world that I knew of that would say or write

2 laboratory products such as gloves containing

3 asbestos caused cancer. No, they wouldn't

4 because there was no credible evidence. In

5 fact, there was no evidence, period.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. Do you recall as you sit here today how

8 far back the research went that you might have

9 reviewed that showed a link between asbestos

10 exposure and mesothelioma?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, I asked you about 1978. When did

13 you conclude for yourself that based on what you

14 had reviewed, asbestos exposure could cause

15 cancer?

16 MR. WILLIAMS: Can you just read that

17 back I missed it?




21 the form of the question. It's vague and

22 undefined in terms of asbestos and in what

23 context. And it assumes facts not in evidence.

24 If you understand what's being asked, you can

25 answer.


1 THE WITNESS: Whenever the experts had

2 available literature, the experts that said

3 certain airborne fibers could cause cancer,

4 that's when I became aware of it.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. Okay. Well, before 1972 when you went

7 to Fisher Scientific did you ever read any

8 literature on asbestos and potential harm it may

9 or may not cause to humans?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you begin doing so upon your

12 employment in 1972?

13 A. I began when the expert testimony came

14 out. And I don't know what year that was.

15 Q. Okay. Is it your belief that before

16 the 1970s there was not what you call expert

17 testimony regarding the dangers of contracting

18 cancer from exposure to airborne asbestos

19 fibers?



22 MR. WILLIAMS: Mischaracterization.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Okay. You already put that document

25 aside so you don't have to. How much time do I


1 have left? Are you willing to go another 20

2 minutes before we take a break?

3 A. I'm okay.

4 Q. Okay. Great. I'm going to mark John

5 Reilly 10, dated 3/1/11.



8 identification.)

9 BY MR. HAKLAY:

10 Q. For you, Counsel. This is entitled

11 "Interdepartmental Communication, Fisher

12 Scientific Company", date December 4, 1978 to

13 Brett Harrison at Indiana from Jim Cenname?

14 A. Cenname.

15 Q. It's an M, thank you, C-E-N-N-A-M-E.

16 Of Indiana?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. And the subject is Asbestos.

19 A. Right.

20 Q. And for the record there are three

21 people carbon copied at the bottom and none of

22 them are Mr. Reilly.

23 Who was Mr. Harrison, did you know

24 that?

25 A. Jim Cenname's boss.


1 Q. Okay. Who was Jim Cenname?

2 A. He was in charge of Indiana.

3 Q. Was that after Mr. Anderson?

4 A. I'm not sure. You know, people come

5 and go.

6 Q. Did they have the same job, though,

7 Mr. Anderson and Mr. Cenname?

8 A. No. Mr. Anderson was higher up. He

9 had other responsibilities. Jim Cenname was in

10 charge of Indiana.

11 Q. And Brett Harrison was his boss, you

12 said?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was he also stationed or working out of

15 Indiana?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Okay. Other than the fact that it says

18 it's Brett Harrison at Indiana, you have no

19 memory?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Have you seen this document in the last

22 couple of weeks?

23 A. Not to my knowledge. I may have. I

24 don't remember that. It doesn't look familiar

25 to me.


1 Q. Do you know if you saw this document in

2 1978 or so?

3 A. No, I don't know that.

4 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you: As

5 the corporate safety director, would you -- is

6 this -- why don't you take a look at it before I

7 ask you any questions because it's not one

8 paragraph.

9 A. Okay, I read it.

10 Q. The reason I'm directing this document

11 to you, the very first line says "Attached is

12 correspondence from Jack Reilly concerning the

13 use of asbestos in our products. Jack has asked

14 me to establish a list of all products which

15 include asbestos in some shape or form." And

16 then it says that "Carl Hvozda, H-V-O-Z-D-A, has

17 completed this list and it is attached."

18 Do you recall asking Jim Cenname to

19 compile a list of all products which contain

20 asbestos in some shape or form?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Even after seeing this

23 memo, does that refresh your recollection or you

24 still don't recall doing so?

25 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Asked and


1 answered.

2 THE WITNESS: No.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. Okay. There's a number one there and

5 it says, "Generally speaking, I have reviewed

6 the list and established the following

7 preliminary thoughts," and then it states, "The

8 use of asbestos in our instruments is confined

9 to approximately 21 products and falls into six

10 general categories. The categories are: A,

11 asbestos coated wire; B, small plates or blocks

12 of transite used as heat resistant stand-offs;

13 C, asbestos coated material such as cardboard or

14 aluminum foil as a heat shield; D, door

15 gasketing which is woven asbestos cloth; E,

16 asbestos tape with adhesive backing; F, large

17 sheets of transite or flexboard used in our

18 furniture."

19 Whether or not you recall asking

20 anybody to compile a list, do you recall

21 receiving a list from anybody?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. As you look at these six general

24 categories as they're described in this memo,

25 did Fisher Scientific manufacture and/or


1 distribute products within these six categories?

2 A. Wire, I don't know. Blocks, I don't

3 know. Aluminum foil, I don't know. Door

4 gasketing, I don't know. Asbestos tape, I don't

5 know. The large sheets of transite we've

6 already covered that in the fume hoods.

7 Q. Right.

8 A. So that's the only one of the six that

9 ring a bell.

10 Q. Okay. And to be fair you've already

11 testified that it wasn't necessarily your job to

12 know every single product that was sold in the

13 catalogs. You were the safety person, not

14 marketing, correct?

15 A. That's correct. Plus, it would be damn

16 near impossible.

17 Q. Because there's thousands and

18 thousands --

19 A. And people could be selling you

20 products that contained asbestos that didn't

21 tell you.

22 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt the

23 veracity of this list as compiled in 1978 of

24 asbestos-containing products?

25 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. No


1 foundation. Assumes facts. Calls for this

2 witness to speculate. If you know you can

3 answer.


5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. Okay. The first full paragraph after

7 that list of 1 A to F says, "Asbestos is a

8 problem we have been avoiding for a number of

9 years now."

10 Now, do you have knowledge of what Jim

11 Cenname meant when he wrote that?

12 A. No.


14 because -- to the foundation of this question

15 because it doesn't relate to products that

16 Fisher Scientific distributed but did not

17 manufacture. The memo is limited to certain

18 products that Fisher manufactured. Over my

19 objection, you can respond.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. I think you already did. You said no,

22 correct?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. Do you believe in 1978

25 asbestos, as it's written here, was a problem


1 that Fisher Scientific was avoiding for a number

2 of years now?


4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. And I

5 would have chided Cenname.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. If you remembered seeing this you would

8 have --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Why would you have chided him?

11 A. It's a poor word "avoiding" because we

12 haven't avoided anything about asbestos. We

13 wrote OSHA, we talked to customers. I wrote a

14 memo, let's consider discontinuing them. That's

15 not avoiding.

16 Q. What part does you talked to customers

17 have in that list?


19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. That list you just gave of the things

21 that you did.

22 A. Well, we got a letter from school

23 children, somebody answered them.

24 Q. Okay. This is now two months minus two

25 days from the October -- I'm sorry, it is now --


1 from October 11th to December 4th of 1978. Do

2 you know whether as of December 4th anybody had

3 written back to those school children to answer

4 those questions?


6 the form. It assumes facts that that letter has

7 anything to do with this December 4th, '78 memo.

8 If you have any specific knowledge of a

9 connection, you can testify to it.

10 THE WITNESS: No.

11 MR. WILLIAMS: But don't assume.


13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. Do you know whether as of December 4,

15 1978 anybody had written back to the children

16 from their letter of October 11th, 1978?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. Okay. Other than the letter from the

19 children, what other -- what else are we

20 referring to, if anything, when you said "we

21 talked with customers" when you responded as to

22 how you weren't avoiding asbestos, it wasn't a

23 problem you were avoiding?


25 It's been asked and answered. They talked to a


1 lot of folks. But if you want to answer it

2 again, you may.

3 THE WITNESS: I talked to customers

4 continuously, either on the telephone, in

5 person, or giving workshops -- safety workshops

6 to the customers. If any questions came up

7 regarding asbestos, I would have addressed them.

8 I wrote OSHA concerning asbestos. Avoiding is a

9 very poor word. We did everything but avoid.

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. While you were reading documents after

12 you got to Fisher Scientific literature,

13 whatever you read, concerning asbestos, did you

14 read any documents that talked about something

15 called a latency period?


17 Vague. But you can answer if you understand.

18 THE WITNESS: I don't know what that

19 means.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. As you sit here today, do you know what

22 a latency period is as it relates to asbestos

23 exposure?

24 A. Not really, no.

25 Q. As you sit here today, do you know on


1 average how long from exposure to development of

2 an asbestos-related cancer it takes or usually

3 goes by?


5 You're seeking expert witness opinion. No

6 foundation. Calls for speculation. If you know

7 you can answer.

8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. But I've

9 heard from so-called experts anywhere from 25 to

10 40 years. I don't know that.

11 BY MR. HAKLAY:

12 Q. Did you hear that from experts back in

13 the '70s or have you heard that more recently?


15 Q. Okay. So as you sit here, you don't

16 know whether you knew anything about latency

17 periods during the '70s?


19 Q. You can put that aside also. I'm going

20 to mark as Reilly 11 dated 3/1/11, John Reilly

21 11, a one page.



24 identification.)

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. This is on letterhead that says

2 "Educational Materials Division, Fisher

3 Scientific Company". It is to Jack Reilly from

4 Michael Hirsch, H-I-R-S-C-H. Jack Reilly's

5 location is CO, which I think you've told us is

6 corporate offices, correct?

7 A. Either that or central offices.

8 Q. But Pittsburgh?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it's from Michael Hirsch, location

11 EMD/Chicago. The subject is: Wire gauze with

12 asbestos center. It's dated December 5, 1978.

13 It's short. I'll read it very quickly. "Dear

14 Jack: We have decided to drop from our listing

15 in our new catalog wire gauze with asbestos

16 centers because of all the problems that may

17 arise with asbestos. As its replacement we are

18 listing a wire gauze with ceramic centers.

19 Please refer to the attached sheet for the

20 information on the subject. Best regards,

21 Mike -- Mike Hirsch." Then it says there's an

22 attachment.


24 you questions?

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. Okay. Who is Mike Hirsch?


3 Q. Okay. Do you even remember if he was

4 associated with EMD in Chicago or not?

5 A. He says he was. I don't -- no, I don't

6 remember him.

7 Q. In 2011 that name is a complete blank

8 to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Fair enough. Do you recall whether you

11 responded in any way to this memo back to

12 Michael Hirsch or back to anybody in EMD?

13 A. No, I don't recall.

14 Q. Have you seen this memo in the last two

15 weeks?

16 A. Not to my knowledge.

17 Q. Do you recall receiving this in 1978?

18 A. No.

19 Q. The Jack Reilly it's addressed to,

20 that's you, correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. There was no other Jack or John Reilly

23 that you know of at Fisher at that time, was

24 there?

25 A. No.


1 Q. Okay. I don't have to keep asking

2 that. It is now two months minus six days from

3 October 11 when the letter from the children in

4 Mt. Wolf, Pennsylvania at Northeastern Junior

5 High School was written to the date of this --

6 I'm sorry, do you need something, Mr. Williams?

7 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just telling the

8 witness to wait because I'm going to object to

9 your question but I wanted you to get it out.

10 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. I thought you were

11 trying to do something so I'll start again.

12 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just telling him to

13 wait.

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. It is now two months minus six days

16 from the date of the letter from the junior high

17 students at Northeastern Junior High School to

18 Fisher Scientific. Do you know whether between

19 October 11, 1978 and December 5th, 1978 any

20 answer had been sent to those children?

21 MR. WILLIAMS: Now, my objection. I'm

22 going to object because it misstates -- assumes

23 facts and misstates the record in that it

24 attempts to connect that that letter from the

25 children at that school to this December 5, 1978


1 memo. So in that sense it assumes facts. But

2 if you understand the question you may answer

3 it.

4 THE WITNESS: I don't know of anybody

5 answering the children.

6 BY MR. HAKLAY:

7 Q. You don't remember doing so yourself

8 before December 5th?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. All right. Are you aware that the wire

11 gauze with asbestos centers are the product or

12 one of the products that the children in a

13 science lab were referring to?

14 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection.

15 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not.

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. What products do you believe they were

18 referring to in that letter about using the

19 asbestos-containing products in their science

20 classroom --

21 A. I thought they said mats.

22 Q. Okay. Do you know what a wire gauze

23 with asbestos center would be used for in a

24 science classroom?

25 A. No, I don't. To repeat myself, the


1 only products that we did not manufacture that

2 we sold that contained asbestos that were used

3 in the lab were gloves and mats.

4 Q. And that is the best memory you have as

5 you sit here in 2011, correct?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. All right. When Mr. Hirsch wrote to

8 you and wrote, "all the problems that may arise

9 with asbestos," do you know exactly what

10 Mr. Hirsch meant when he wrote that?

11 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Calls for

12 speculation. But if you know you can answer.

13 THE WITNESS: No. I would only

14 speculate because he wrote it, not me.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. Okay. Do you believe there's any

17 connection between the concerned seventh grade

18 science students' letter about asbestos-

19 containing equipment they used or were going to

20 use in their classroom and the decision less

21 than two months later to stop listing and

22 selling wire gauze with asbestos centers through

23 Fisher Scientific catalogs?


25 the form. Misstates the record on several


1 levels. The letter refers to pads. This talks

2 about wire gauze with asbestos centers. And the

3 characterization of decision misstates the

4 record. But over my objection, if you know you

5 can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Are you asking me is

7 there any connection between these two letters?

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. Let me rephrase it, okay. The October

10 11, 1978 letter came from kids in Mt. Wolf,

11 correct?

12 A. Yes. I guess that was the date.


14 assumes facts not in evidence. But you can

15 answer.

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. Okay. The December 5th, 1978 memo to

18 you from Michael Hirsch starts "We have decided

19 to drop from our listing", correct?

20 A. Uh-hum.

21 Q. Yes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. For her, not for me.

24 To your knowledge is there any

25 connection between the October 11, 1978 letter


1 from the children about doing experiments with

2 asbestos pads and the December 5th, 1978 memo

3 that refers to a decision to drop wire gauze

4 with asbestos centers from Fisher Scientific

5 catalogs?

6 A. That would only be speculation on my

7 part.

8 Q. Okay. So you don't know?

9 A. No.

10 MR. WILLIAMS: Object.

11 MR. HAKLAY: Why don't we change the

12 tape now.


14 tape four. We're going off the record. The

15 time now is 3:19 p.m.


17 from 3:19 p.m. to 3:32 p.m.)


19 beginning of tape five in today's deposition.

20 The time now is 3:32 p.m. and we will back on

21 the record.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. You can take your time and read

24 whatever you'd like to read before we start.

25 A. I wanted to ask you if it is okay if I


1 clarify one of my answers that I gave recently.

2 Q. With regards to what?

3 A. I went back and reread the memo of this

4 group of concerned children.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. And they were talking about asbestos

7 pads.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. And then this letter from Michael

10 Hirsch to me saying we're dropping wire gauze.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. And you asked me do you think that

13 that's in connection with the letter from the

14 children.

15 Q. I asked you if there was any connection

16 between the letter from the children and the

17 decision to stop producing wire gauze with

18 asbestos centers.

19 A. And I said I didn't know or I didn't

20 think so. I'm saying now I think they're

21 dropping the wire gauze because I recommended to

22 the company to get out of business.

23 Q. Get out of what business?

24 A. Products that we don't manufacture that

25 we sell that contain asbestos.


1 Q. Do you -- are you saying now that you

2 believe there is a connection between the letter

3 from the children and the decision to drop that

4 product --

5 THE WITNESS: No.

6 MR. WILLIAMS: He's saying the

7 opposite.

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. -- or is --

10 A. No.


12 A. Okay.

13 Q. Or is that a decision that was made

14 that had no connection to that letter from the

15 school children?

16 A. It had no connection with the letter

17 from the school children. It had a connection

18 with my letter saying let's drop these products.

19 Q. Okay. Is that a letter we've looked at

20 or --

21 A. Yes. No, we've looked at it.

22 Q. Which exhibit number is that letter?

23 A. Exhibit Number 9.

24 Q. And what is that dated?

25 A. November 28th, 1978.


1 Q. The memo to Joel Fontaine?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where you talk about that you were both

4 a manufacturer and distributor of asbestos

5 products?

6 A. Number three.

7 Q. Number three I read into the record

8 where you talk about conducting a study to

9 determine the feasibility of continuing or

10 discontinuing the manufacture and/or

11 distribution of products that contained

12 asbestos. That's what you're referring to?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. I just wanted to --

16 Q. Okay. That's fine. Anything else that

17 you want to put on with regard to that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Are you

20 ready to go forward?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I'm going to hand you what's been

23 marked as John Reilly 12 dated 3/1/11.




1 identification.)

2 THE WITNESS: Oh, I did answer.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. Let me ask you questions. This is a

5 letter on Fisher Scientific letterhead dated

6 December 11, 1978 to Mr. Charles R. Kohler,

7 K-O-H-L-E-R, at Northeastern Junior High School

8 on Hartman Street in Manchester, PA, 17345.

9 It's signed, Very truly yours, John R. Reilly,

10 Corporate Safety Director.

11 First, are you John R. Reilly?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you recognize that signature?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Until now I'd asked you whether

16 you know who, if anyone, responded to the

17 children and you stated you had no memory of it.

18 A. Right.

19 Q. Does it appear that you wrote back at

20 least to the school, if not, to the kids?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If you recall the letter from the

23 kids --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- mentioned -- if you recall I put on


1 the record that it mentioned in the upper

2 right-hand corner the name Charles Kohler.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I don't know if that's the teacher or

5 who that is. Do you know who that is?

6 A. No.

7 Q. But somebody at Northeastern Junior

8 High School?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. I'm going to read this very

11 short three paragraph letter and then ask you

12 some questions about it, correct?

13 First of all, have you seen this in the

14 last two weeks?

15 A. I may have. I'm not sure.

16 Q. You don't look like you have a strong

17 memory if you did certainly.

18 A. I'm not sure.

19 Q. Okay. Until you just had this put in

20 front of you, did you have even the slightest

21 inkling that you had written back to someone at

22 Northeastern Junior High School?

23 MR. WILLIAMS: Asked and answered.

24 Object. He didn't recall. I don't know what

25 slightest inkling means. Are you quantifying


1 now? Over my objection, you can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: I'm going to answer it

3 this way and I've been trying to say this. Yes,

4 I would get back to children. Yes.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. But until now, the question --

7 MR. WILLIAMS: Are you finished with

8 your answer?

9 THE WITNESS: Not really.

10 MR. HAKLAY: Go ahead, sir.

11 THE WITNESS: And apparently from this

12 letter, when I did get back I said I have had

13 several conversations with Mrs. Snelbaker.

14 MR. HAKLAY: Let me read it into the

15 record.

16 MR. WILLIAMS: Are you finished with

17 your answer?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes. In other words,

19 yes, I did something.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. Okay. "Dear Mr. Kohler: Please

22 forgive the delay in answering your letter;

23 however, I have had several telephone

24 conversations with Mrs. Snelbaker explaining the

25 situation.


1 We are not the manufacturer of the

2 asbestos pads that you are questioning. I have

3 been in touch with the manufacturer and they are

4 going to send me literature and physical

5 properties of their product, which will be

6 forwarded to you.

7 Enclosed is a copy of the Occupational

8 Safety and Health (OSHA) asbestos standard. As

9 you can see from this standard, OSHA is

10 referring to asbestos operations that liberate

11 airborne articles, (fibers). I will be writing

12 to you again as soon as I receive literature

13 from the manufacturer. Very truly yours" and

14 then John R. Reilly.

15 Did I read it correctly into the record

16 before I ask you anything?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. As you're sitting right now, do you

19 have any idea who Mrs. Snelbaker is?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you have any specific conversations

22 with whoever she may be?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You write that we are not the

25 manufacturer of the asbestos pads that you were


1 questioning, correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Do you mean by that sentence that you

4 were also not the distributor?

5 A. No, the manufacturer.

6 Q. How come you didn't write, however, we

7 distribute them and sell them through our

8 catalog?


10 It's argumentative. It assumes facts. If you

11 understand what's being asked. It's vague.

12 THE WITNESS: I'm going to answer your

13 question I don't know.

14 BY MR. HAKLAY:

15 Q. You said you've been in touch with the

16 manufacturer. Do you know as you sit here, 33

17 years later, who that manufacturer was?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Fair enough. It then says that the

20 manufacturer will be sending literature and

21 physical properties of their product to you and

22 you will forward them to the school, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As of the time you wrote this letter,

25 do you believe you were in possession of


1 literature -- let me ask that again. I'll

2 withdraw that.

3 To your knowledge before December 11,

4 1978, had you ever seen the manufacturer's

5 literature about their asbestos pads that you

6 sold through your catalog?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. As you sit here, do you recall ever

9 seeing them before this date?

10 A. No, I do not recall.

11 Q. As you sit here, do you know whether

12 that literature included information about

13 testing the product for asbestos fiber release

14 during use?

15 A. No, I do not.

16 Q. Why did you send Mr. Kohler the OSHA

17 standard?

18 A. So he could become familiar with the

19 law, what the law says about asbestos.

20 Q. Okay. And you write that OSHA is

21 referring -- "as you can see from the standard,

22 OSHA is referring to asbestos operations that

23 liberate airborne particles or fibers," correct?


25 Q. That's from your previous


1 correspondence with OSHA what you believed the

2 standard referred to, correct, what it governed?


4 That question is vague. If you understand

5 what's being asked, you can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: No. It does not refer to

7 what I believe. It refers to what the standard

8 said.

9 BY MR. HAKLAY:

10 Q. Okay. To what the OSHA standard --

11 what kind of products and in what situations the

12 OSHA standard governs?

13 A. Addressed.

14 Q. Imprecise question, I apologize.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. By writing that paragraph, are you

17 attempting to tell this school that the products

18 that you sell through your catalog do not

19 liberate airborne particles or fibers?


21 document speaks for itself. It says what it

22 says. Over my objection, if you have a

23 recollection you can answer.

24 THE WITNESS: I'm saying that because

25 OSHA is the law that governs asbestos that


1 people use. And I thought he should have what

2 the law says from the horse's mouth. However,

3 I'll say it again, I do not believe that

4 asbestos pads cause airborne particles that can

5 cause cancer. And neither did OSHA and neither

6 did anyone else in the world.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. I'm sorry, are you saying that the OSHA

9 standard stated that articles such as the

10 products we've been talking about, pads or

11 gloves, present no danger?

12 A. No. I'm saying that if it did present

13 a danger, it would be covered by the OSHA

14 standard.

15 Q. Are you saying that if you -- if a

16 product is not covered by an OSHA standard, that

17 Fisher Scientific had no obligation to determine

18 whether that product was nonetheless dangerous

19 or not dangerous?

20 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just object.

21 Obligation is a legal conclusion that you're

22 seeking from this witness and there's no

23 foundation for it. And the question's been

24 asked and answered several times. Over my

25 objection, you can answer it again.


1 THE WITNESS: You will have to rephrase

2 the question. I don't know what you just said.

3 BY MR. HAKLAY:

4 Q. Did you believe that the products that

5 Fisher Scientific sold through its catalog to

6 schools such as the school that wrote were

7 covered by the OSHA standard?

8 A. No. No, they were not covered by the

9 OSHA standard because they don't liberate

10 airborne fibers.

11 Q. Did you believe as the corporate safety

12 director that regardless of -- let me ask that

13 again. I started it poorly.

14 Do you believe as the corporate safety

15 director that if a product was not covered by

16 the OSHA standard or governed by the OSHA

17 standard, that that meant that no investigation

18 needed to be done by Fisher Scientific and that

19 the product was per se safe?

20 A. No, I do not mean that at all.

21 Q. Do you believe that regardless of

22 whether a product was governed by a specific

23 OSHA standard that Fisher Scientific should have

24 -- should know whether a product is safe for its

25 intended use by its customers?


1 A. Sure, we should know that.

2 Q. Do you believe that Fisher Scientific

3 should have taken whatever steps were necessary

4 regardless of whether a product was governed by

5 a specific OSHA standard to find out whether or

6 not its products were safe for their intended

7 use for customers?

8 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. It's vague.

9 But if you understand what's being asked, you

10 can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: We did. We took due

12 diligence right down the line. I wrote OSHA, I

13 wrote the customers. There was no credible

14 evidence in the world that asbestos pads and

15 gloves caused airborne particles which could

16 cause cancer.

17 BY MR. HAKLAY:

18 Q. Do you believe in your role as Fisher

19 corporate safety director for those many years

20 that in order to know whether a product that you

21 distributed through your catalog was safe, that

22 you would have to know whether anybody had done

23 any monitoring or air testing to see whether

24 fibers or asbestos fibers were released during

25 normal usage?



2 The question is compound. It's vague. It

3 refers to anybody might do anything. If you

4 understand what's being asked you can answer it.

5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I think

6 we're beating a dead horse.

7 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him finish.

8 THE WITNESS: If this table cloth --

9 this table cloth might contain asbestos. I

10 don't know that. But I don't think the person

11 that sold this table cloth to this hotel said,

12 yeah, you know this might contain asbestos, but

13 -- we went on what everyone else in the world

14 went on, what's a hazard according to

15 respectable expert knowledge and what isn't.

16 And pads and gloves were not and are not and

17 will not be a hazard.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Okay. What OSHA wrote to you in the

20 letter we looked at this morning that certain

21 products were not covered by a standard and

22 their danger or non-danger could only be

23 determined through what -- the word in the

24 letter was monitoring.

25 A. If they --


1 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let me object.

2 You're paraphrasing.

3 THE WITNESS: Liberate.

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. Right. Did you believe as corporate

6 safety director that you needed to make sure by

7 testing or monitoring that products you

8 distributed through your catalog didn't release

9 airborne fibers?

10 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just going to offer

11 an objection because you're mischaracterizing

12 what -- the OSHA response letter and paraphrasing

13 it in an unfair manner. If you understand

14 what's being asked you can answer.

15 THE WITNESS: I'm confused now.

16 MR. HAKLAY: Okay.

17 THE WITNESS: We -- you can't monitor

18 if a product doesn't release airborne fibers.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. You can't. It's impossible.

22 Q. In the letter to you --

23 MR. WILLIAMS: What -- are we referring

24 to an exhibit?

25 MR. HAKLAY: I'll give this back to


1 you. I'm telling you the exhibit now. In the

2 letter to you right here.

3 MR. WILLIAMS: What number?

4 MR. HAKLAY: I'm getting to it,

5 Counsel. In number three, the letter of January

6 23rd, 1976 from OSHA back -- I'm sorry, from

7 OSHA to you, correct? The one where somebody

8 signed for David H. Rhone, R-H-O-N-E. In the

9 END of the second paragraph, it says, "the

10 release and extent of release of airborne fibers

11 can only be determined by monitoring," correct?

12 A. Yes, it says that.

13 Q. Did you interpret that to mean that

14 monitoring was a requirement in order to decide

15 whether a product you distributed through your

16 catalog released airborne fibers?

17 MR. WILLIAMS: Now I've got to object

18 because the question is utterly unfair because

19 at the beginning of that paragraph says "the use

20 of such products by customers is not addressed

21 by this standard." And the sentence that you

22 just read relates to something else. So the

23 question is unfair, assumes facts. If you

24 understand what's being asked you can answer it.

25 THE WITNESS: Your laboratory products,


1 such as gloves and mats, did not release

2 airborne fibers, according to the expert

3 testimony throughout the world. Therefore, no

4 monitoring was necessary.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. Okay. All right. You can put number

7 three back down, sir. Put it back in order.

8 We're still on Number 12 which is your letter to

9 Mr. Kohler.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. Why didn't you write directly to the

12 school children who had written to you?

13 MR. WILLIAMS: Why didn't he write back

14 to a host of unidentified people? That question

15 is really unfair, Counselor. It assumes facts.

16 Calls for speculation.

17 THE WITNESS: School children didn't

18 write directly to me.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. Well, do you know of anybody else who

21 responded in writing to anyone at this school

22 other than you now that you've seen this letter?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you have any belief from whatever

25 source that somebody else wrote back to the


1 school other than you from Fisher Scientific?

2 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just offer one

3 objection because I just want to state for the

4 record looking at Reilly Exhibit 6, it's signed

5 Concerned Seventh Grade Science Students. So to

6 the extent your question said should he have

7 wrote a letter to the Concerned Seventh Grade

8 Science Students; is that the question, Counsel?

9 MR. HAKLAY: You can answer my

10 question, sir.

11 MR. WILLIAMS: The question is

12 improper. But you can answer.

13 Can you read back what the pending

14 question is?

15 THE WITNESS: What is your question?



18 THE WITNESS: No, I do not.

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. This afternoon I asked you what

21 straightforward answers you would have given the

22 children, correct?

23 A. I guess.

24 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just object to

25 the term "straightforward" as vague and


1 undefined. But if you understand what's being

2 asked you can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I would answer the

4 children.

5 BY MR. HAKLAY:

6 Q. Right. And I asked you what answers

7 would you have given them, correct?

8 A. The same ones I'm giving you.

9 Q. Right. And you told me what you would

10 have written to the children. That was before

11 you knew you wrote this letter that I showed

12 you, right?

13 A. Yes. Right.

14 Q. But you told me what in your

15 professional opinion based on your experience

16 you would have written back to these children,

17 correct? Yes?


19 Calls for speculation. He also said he didn't

20 even remember getting the letter, Counselor.


22 MR. WILLIAMS: The question is unfair.

23 THE WITNESS: I don't remember getting

24 the letter.

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. Nevertheless, today you told me what

2 you in your professional capacity would have

3 written to these children, correct?

4 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. That's a

5 mischaracterization of his testimony. You asked

6 him to speculate.

7 THE WITNESS: You know, we're chasing

8 tails here. First of all, I don't believe the

9 children wrote that letter.

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. What do you mean?

12 A. I believe that Mr. Kohler, a teacher,

13 wrote it and to put some real emphasis on it,

14 signed it concerned children. I don't think

15 seventh grade students would write a letter like

16 that.

17 Q. Okay. Do you admit the possibility

18 that perhaps the teacher brought up the subject

19 of asbestos and as a class project they wrote a

20 letter, so we're not speculating utterly about

21 what the source of the letter is?

22 A. I can't answer that.

23 Q. All you know is that the letter is

24 signed "Concerned Seventh Grade Science

25 Students", correct?


1 A. Right.

2 Q. Okay. This afternoon you told me --

3 A. It's not signed. It's typewritten.

4 There's no signature.

5 Q. Right. This afternoon you informed me

6 that you would have written back and told the

7 kids that the asbestos products do not cause

8 cancer but that to address their concerns you

9 would look into alternatives, correct?


11 the form of the question. You're

12 mischaracterizing his testimony, Counsel. And

13 obviously intentionally so. You asked him to

14 speculate --

15 MR. HAKLAY: Counsel.

16 MR. WILLIAMS: Counsel.

17 MR. HAKLAY: It's a New Jersey dep.

18 I'm putting on the record that I am not

19 mischaracterizing anything.

20 MR. WILLIAMS: You are.

21 MR. HAKLAY: I'm not doing anything

22 intentionally.

23 MR. WILLIAMS: Can I finish my

24 objection?

25 MR. HAKLAY: Not when you start


1 accusing me of things, you can't.

2 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I can make an

3 objection. You can call it an accusation. I'm

4 calling it an objection.

5 MR. HAKLAY: You made your objection.

6 MR. WILLIAMS: I hadn't finished yet.

7 MR. HAKLAY: You did not call it an

8 accusation. You've accused me of intentionally

9 misrepresenting things. Those were your words.

10 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just say this,

11 the witness testified that he didn't even recall

12 receiving the letter which is marked as Reilly

13 Exhibit 6, and you asked him to speculate. So

14 don't indicate that somehow he testified that

15 that's what he would have done. You asked him

16 to speculate. And you're building speculation

17 upon speculation. It's unfair and it's without

18 any foundation at all. It calls for

19 speculation.

20 If you have an actual knowledge of

21 doing something you can testify to it. But

22 don't speculate.

23 BY MR. HAKLAY:

24 Q. Mr. Reilly, this afternoon did you tell

25 me if you were going to write back to those


1 children you would have written that the

2 asbestos does not cause cancer in those products

3 but that you will look into sending them

4 information about alternative sources?

5 A. I believe that's what I told you, yes.

6 Q. Do you say any of that in this letter?

7 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. The letter

8 speaks for itself. He also said he didn't

9 recall sending the letter.

10 THE WITNESS: I'm saying that the

11 manufacturer is going to get in touch with me

12 and give you the answers. That's what I'm

13 saying. And I'm also saying, here's the legal

14 law standard.

15 BY MR. HAKLAY:

16 Q. In writing back to the school, whether

17 to the teacher or the teacher and the children,

18 did you answer their question about asbestos

19 causing cancer in this December 11, 1978 letter?


21 speaks for itself. Assumes facts not in

22 evidence. It also calls for an expert opinion.

23 THE WITNESS: I told them we were going

24 to the manufacturer, the horse's mouth.

25 BY MR. HAKLAY:


1 Q. Okay. You can put that one aside.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. I have premarked as Number 13 another

4 one-page letter.



7 identification.)

8 BY MR. HAKLAY:

9 Q. A copy for everyone. It is dated

10 December 18, 1978 from the Fisher Scientific

11 Company letterhead to Mr. Charles R. Kohler,

12 Northeastern Junior High School in Manchester,

13 PA, from Very truly yours, John R. Reilly,

14 Corporate Safety Director.

15 Again, is this your signature?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Other than the fact that I just put

18 this letter in front of you, do you have an

19 independent recollection of sending another

20 letter to Mr. Kohler?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Have you seen this in the last couple

23 of weeks?


25 Q. I'm going to read the entire four


1 lines. "Dear Mr. Kohler: In your original

2 letter you mention asbestos pads. I am

3 interested in identifying the product in

4 question. Is the product catalog Number 1-441A,

5 C or D? (See attached). When did you purchase

6 this product? Please send all particulars.

7 Very truly yours", and then your signature.

8 Did I read it correctly so I can ask

9 you some questions about it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It says that there's an attachment. In

12 the letter itself it says "see attached". Do

13 you have any idea what you attached?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Have you seen the attachment to your

16 knowledge?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Me neither. Why are you interested in

19 having the school identify the product?

20 A. Because maybe they even bought the

21 product from somebody else. I want to know

22 specifically what are you talking about.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. There are all kinds of asbestos pads on

25 the market. Maybe hundreds of them.


1 Q. Well, let me ask you in regards to

2 answering this letter from a teacher or students

3 or a teacher and students, however you want to

4 think about it, how does the exact type of pad

5 it is, meaning A, C or D, affect your ability to

6 answer the questions you received that were

7 received in that original letter from the

8 students?

9 A. Well, again, maybe it wasn't our pad.

10 There's other suppliers of pads besides Fisher

11 Scientific Company.

12 Q. Do you recall ever receiving a response

13 from Mr. Kohler or anyone else?

14 A. No, I don't. I want to know

15 specifically what are we talking about. Are we

16 talking about this table cloth or that table

17 cloth.

18 Q. In response to your -- in regards to

19 your response to the children of the school

20 about the dangers of asbestos or the pads that

21 they're worried about, why does it matter who

22 made it?


24 It's been asked and answered twice now. I'll

25 allow it one more time. You can answer it


1 again.

2 THE WITNESS: I can't answer questions

3 for somebody else's product.

4 BY MR. HAKLAY:

5 Q. Okay. Did you find out something

6 between December 11, the letter we just looked

7 at, and December 18th, this letter that led you

8 to believe that you did not distribute the pads

9 in question?

10 A. I don't recall that, no.

11 Q. Did you speak to anyone -- before

12 December 11th, before the first letter back to

13 the junior high, about your response to the

14 junior high?

15 A. Specifically, I do not recall that, no.

16 Q. Did you speak to anyone between the

17 11th and the 18th about your second response

18 that you were going to write?

19 A. Specifically, I don't recall that, no.

20 Q. Do you know whether this issue was

21 discussed at board meetings or any other

22 functions where Fisher Scientific meetings or

23 memos were distributed by anybody?

24 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll just object to the

25 terminology "issue" because I think that's vague


1 and undefinable.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. I'll define it better, that's fine. Do

4 you know if the issue of responding to the

5 letter from the school children in Mt. Wolf was

6 discussed either verbally or in meetings or in

7 any other correspondence other than your

8 responses to the school?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. Do you have any knowledge of whether

11 you ever sent on materials from the manufacturer

12 of the pads as you wrote in your December 11th

13 letter?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. You just have to let me finish my

16 question.

17 A. I thought you did.

18 Q. That was a no, you don't have any

19 knowledge whether that happened?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Do you have any information or

22 knowledge as to whether there was further

23 correspondence past this December 18th letter

24 that we're now looking at?

25 A. No, I do not.


1 Q. To your knowledge did you or anybody

2 else from Fisher Scientific ever address a

3 letter back to this school in any way that dealt

4 with the question in the November -- October

5 11th letter from the kids that talked about

6 their worries about asbestos-causing cancer?

7 A. I do not --

8 MR. WILLIAMS: I missed it. I'm sorry,

9 can you just read it back?



12 MR. WILLIAMS: You mean other than the

13 two that he did write? Over my objection, if

14 you understand the question you can answer. It

15 just mischaracterizes his testimony potentially

16 if you're implying --

17 THE WITNESS: If you're asking me did

18 anybody write back to these kids and say this

19 product does cause cancer or this product does

20 not cause cancer, is that what you're asking me?

21 BY MR. HAKLAY:

22 Q. Yes. Or spoke about asbestos and

23 cancer at all in response.


25 Q. Okay. To your knowledge you did not do


1 so, however?


3 Q. Okay. You can put that -- you already

4 have put that away.

5 I'll mark this as Number 14, John

6 Reilly 14 dated 3/1/11.



9 identification.)

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. Keeping with my habit, it's a one-page

12 document on, again, Central Offices/Pittsburgh

13 Fisher Scientific Company heading. It's marked

14 Personal and Confidential. It's written on

15 April 9, 1979 to Harvey Mitchell and Jack

16 Daniels from Jack Reilly. The subject is

17 Asbestos.

18 Are you the Jack Reilly mentioned here?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who is Jack Daniels and was he always

21 good for a good time? I'm just kidding. Who

22 was Jack Daniels?

23 MR. WILLIAMS: It was too good to

24 resist.

25 THE WITNESS: He was a big shot in


1 marketing and sales.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. Okay. And who is Harvey Mitchell?

4 A. He was vice president I believe in

5 charge of purchasing.

6 Q. Okay. Do you -- have you seen this in

7 the last couple of weeks, this memo?

8 A. I don't recall that I have.

9 Q. Why don't you take -- it's very short,

10 why don't you take your time and read it as much

11 as you want.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. I'm just going to read the first

14 paragraph -- the first paragraph, yes. "I think

15 that we should discontinue selling products that

16 contain asbestos because of adverse publicity,

17 government regulations, legal ramifications and

18 potential lawsuits. Our approach could be to

19 immediately drop low volume items and to find

20 suitable replacement material for high volume

21 items. Following are three potential suppliers

22 of replacement materials and/or products."

23 Did I read that first paragraph

24 correctly --

25 A. Yes.


1 Q. -- up through the colon at the end of

2 it? Okay. What did you mean when you wrote

3 "legal ramifications", if you remember?


5 Q. What did you mean if you wrote

6 "potential lawsuits", if you remember?

7 A. Potential frivolous lawsuits. The word

8 was left out.

9 Q. Was it left out -- do you recall

10 leaving that word out or is that now your

11 belief?

12 A. That's my belief. I'm only talking

13 about frivolous lawsuits.

14 Q. Are you saying that at the time you

15 remember thinking with regards to this memo that

16 you wanted to write frivolous and did not or are

17 you saying now based on your experience in your

18 life you think that's what you wanted to write?

19 A. That's what I mean.


21 THE WITNESS: If you recall, a woman

22 sued McDonald's because she got a cup of hot

23 coffee and put the cup of hot coffee between her

24 legs. I'm saying let's not sell these products.

25 They're a pain in the butt. We're going to get


1 in all kinds of goofy stuff. Drop them.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. Do you believe that exposure to

4 asbestos fibers in the workplace through

5 asbestos-containing products and lawsuits

6 resulting from that is the equivalent of that

7 woman who sued McDonald's because her coffee was

8 too hot because she spilled it on herself?

9 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me object. That's

10 painfully vague and undefined and argumentative.

11 But over my objection, you can answer. That's

12 not what he said. It's a mischaracterization in

13 his testimony.

14 THE WITNESS: I was born at night but

15 not last night.

16 BY MR. HAKLAY:

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. And I knew that with all the furor and

19 hoopla and frivolous lawsuits and mountains of

20 correspondence and my telephone calls, that it's

21 not worth it for us to screw around with these

22 little products. Get rid of them. That's all.

23 Q. As of 1979 do you know whether or not

24 Fisher Scientific had been sued when you wrote

25 this memo for -- related to asbestos?


1 A. No, I do not know that.

2 Q. Okay. Do you know whether you

3 attempted to find that out before writing this

4 memo?

5 A. No, I do not.

6 Q. Do you believe that all asbestos-

7 related lawsuits are frivolous?

8 A. No, not at all. Here's what I believe

9 and I don't know how else to say this. If we

10 gave you cancer, then we're responsible. If we

11 didn't give you cancer, we're not responsible.

12 So why are we screwing around with these

13 products that say made with asbestos. Get rid

14 of them. No, not all lawsuits are frivolous.

15 Heavens, no.

16 Q. Okay. Do you believe that all

17 asbestos-related lawsuits that make accusations

18 or allegations concerning Fisher Scientific are

19 frivolous?


21 form. It's an incomplete factual hypothetical.

22 You're asking him to speculate about lawsuits

23 that he knows nothing about and offer an expert

24 opinion about their merit. It's beyond

25 unreasonable. If you have specific knowledge


1 about lawsuits, you can answer them. If not,

2 don't speculate.

3 THE WITNESS: I'm not speculating. I'm

4 going to answer your question the best -- and

5 this honestly with all due respect would be my

6 last answer. I don't know how else to say this.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. Go on.

9 A. First of all, I don't know how many

10 asbestos lawsuits there are against Fisher. Why

11 would I know and why would I even be involved,

12 number one. But I'm not stupid and I do know

13 that some lawsuits are frivolous. So let's get

14 out of the business so we're not subjected to

15 potential frivolous lawsuits. If I harmed you

16 then I owe you; if I haven't harmed you then

17 leave me alone.

18 Q. That is as clear as it could be, thank

19 you.

20 A. You're welcome.

21 MR. WILLIAMS: Indeed.

22 MR. HAKLAY: And I say that with all

23 due respect.

24 MR. WILLIAMS: Just wait for a

25 question.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. I'm not disrespected in any way by your

3 answer. You answered my question and I

4 understood it.

5 A. Thank you.

6 Q. Okay. Can you put that document away.

7 I'm going to mark as Number 15 another one-page

8 document, Jack Reilly 15, 3/1/11. Copy to

9 counsel.



12 identification.)

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. This is an interdepartmental

15 communication from Fisher Scientific Company

16 dated April 26, 1979 from Joe Cremonese -- am I

17 saying that right?

18 A. Yes, Cremonese.

19 Q. Joe Cremonese at Pittsburgh to -- to

20 Joe Cremonese at Pittsburgh from Tom Price,

21 Cleveland. It reads -- the typewritten part

22 reads, "Joe: As you know, asbestos is a

23 forbidden material. What substitutes are

24 available? Do we have a potential market in an

25 asbestos substitute?" There's a lot of


1 handwriting on this. I'm not reading that right

2 now. As to the printed part, did I read that

3 correctly so I can ask you some questions?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it's hand signed by Tom. I think I

6 already asked you who Tom Price was.

7 A. He's in sales.

8 Q. How about Joe Cremonese?

9 A. I forget what Joe did.

10 Q. That's okay. At the bottom in

11 handwriting it says, "Tom, Jack Reilly has been

12 working on this. We will be using Epoxyn,

13 E-P-O-X-Y-N, transite linings for fume hoods.

14 I'm giving Jack a copy of this so we can provide

15 you with additional information." And then the

16 signature on this is cut off. Do you know what

17 that signature is?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you recall seeing this back in 1979?


21 THE WITNESS: No.

22 MR. WILLIAMS: He's not listed as a

23 recipient on this document.

24 BY MR. HAKLAY:

25 Q. Right. It does state that someone is


1 giving Jack a copy of this, correct?

2 A. Yes. Correct.

3 Q. You don't recall?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know if you've seen it in the

6 last month or so?

7 A. No, I have not.

8 Q. Yes or no, do you have any idea what

9 Tom Price meant when he wrote "asbestos is a

10 forbidden material"?

11 A. Tom Price is a marketing sales-type

12 individual and he's using the word that we

13 talked about before that says avoiding. He

14 doesn't know anything about safety.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. The asbestos is not forbidden.

17 Q. So you don't know what he meant when he

18 said "forbidden"; is that fair?


20 THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly what

21 he meant, no.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. That's what I asked you.

24 A. I just know he wrote it because he's a

25 marketing guy.


1 Q. To your knowledge you never had any

2 discussion with him about his use of the word

3 "forbidden"?

4 A. Never. It's not forbidden.

5 Q. Okay. Can you put that one aside.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. This is being marked as John Reilly 16,

8 dated 3/1/11. It's two-sided. It's a two-page

9 document.



12 identification.)

13 BY MR. HAKLAY:

14 Q. It's a little hard to read. We'll do

15 our best, okay?

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. It's, again, on Central Offices/

18 Pittsburgh, Fisher Scientific Company letterhead

19 or memo head. It's to Jack Reilly from Bob

20 Douglas dated June 28, 1979, and I think the

21 subject says Vendor Asbestos Products. Do you

22 agree with that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. You're the Jack Reilly they're

25 talking about, I take it?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you have any recollection of this

3 memo --

4 A. No.

5 Q. Why don't you take a minute to look at

6 it.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. It says "Jack, June 8 I report

9 that 16 items were still problems (actually 15).

10 Let me update you on our progress." The first

11 category says "gloves, mittens, finger cots,

12 five items," and it talks about the amount of

13 sales being $83,000 at a good profit margin,

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then there's mats, which are three

17 items, and whoever Bill is recommends

18 substituting Mica, M-I-C-A, product. He will

19 pursue with marketing. Then there's wire gauze,

20 it says, two items, and it looks to me like

21 Forma, the supplier, is changing product to

22 eliminate asbestos.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Do you recognize the name Forma

25 as a supplier of --


1 A. No.

2 Q. We already seen a document where you

3 recommended -- or you were told wire gauze with

4 asbestos centers would be replaced with wire

5 gauze with ceramic centers, correct?

6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the

7 terminology of him being told. That's a

8 mischaracterization of his testimony. But over

9 my objection, you can answer.

10 BY MR. HAKLAY:

11 Q. Do you remember we --

12 A. We discussed that, yes.

13 Q. On the same page actually, it says,

14 wire, chromel, C-H-R-O-M-E-L, five items, and

15 "Bill recommends we discontinue and he will

16 pursue with marketing. He will continue to look

17 for an acceptable source -- there are

18 possibilities." And then the next paragraph

19 talks about "Jack, I suspect by the end of next

20 week decisions will have been made on all

21 products (outside suppliers) to effectively

22 remove our liability associated with asbestos

23 products." And then he says he's going to call

24 a meeting for Friday, July 6th that you

25 apparently are going to be invited to.


1 Do you know who this Bill is?

2 A. Bill --

3 Q. Bill who is recommending discontinuing

4 or talking to the marketing department.


6 THE WITNESS: No.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. Okay. When this memo written to you --

9 which do you have any memory of this memo

10 whatsoever?

11 A. No.

12 Q. That's fine. When it talks about

13 removing our liability, to you is that the same

14 meaning as you commented earlier when you gave

15 me that very clear answer about frivolous versus

16 non-frivolous lawsuits and getting out of the

17 business?

18 A. I can't answer what he means by

19 liability. I didn't write the memo.

20 Q. Okay. That's fine. You can put it

21 down. If you have no opinion on what he meant,

22 that's fine.

23 MR. WILLIAMS: He didn't say he had no

24 opinion. He said he didn't know what he meant,

25 the writer meant. He didn't say he had no


1 opinion. That wasn't the question.

2 BY MR. HAKLAY:

3 Q. I can ask you again. Here we go --

4 A. I'll answer it this way: My opinion is

5 that marketing and purchasing people use words

6 in the safety arena that they shouldn't and they

7 have no knowledge of and they're out of bounds.

8 Q. Out of bounds meaning they shouldn't do

9 it?

10 A. They should stick to marketing

11 terminology.

12 Q. Fair enough.

13 A. That's why we pay them.

14 Q. What is probably the last exhibit

15 marked John Reilly 17, 3/1/11.

16 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 17, a document

17 - printed 12/29/05, was then received and marked

18 for identification.)

19 BY MR. HAKLAY:

20 Q. It's two-sided again. It's one page --

21 one paper, two-sided. At the top, it says,

22 Personal Confidential, and then it says,

23 Asbestos Background Material. Somewhere -- let

24 me point to it and see if you can see it.

25 Somewhere here there's a bar code in the upper


1 right and then under that it says in smaller

2 print than the rest of the page, printed

3 12/29/05.

4 A. Uh-hum.

5 Q. Do you see any other date on either of

6 these pages that this might have actually been

7 written?

8 A. Yes. Up on top, page one, under

9 Exhibit 21 it says 11/16/10.

10 Q. Right. That's actually on what's a

11 photocopy of a sticker that says 21 Forte,

12 correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. That's actually the date of Mr. Forte's

15 deposition?

16 A. Oh, okay.

17 Q. You're correct, that's another date

18 that's written here. Ignoring what I said and

19 ignoring anything that's in a Plaintiff's

20 exhibit sticker, I don't see any date here that

21 shows what date it was written, do you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. There are four subsections here

24 and there's four sections of this and there are

25 subsections to some of them. Number one is


1 called "Current OSHA Asbestos Standard,"

2 correct? I'm just making sure --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Number two says, "Current

5 Incidents (Publicity)," correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm going to number three, "Recent

8 Incidents Reported to Me." Do you have any idea

9 who wrote this page and a half?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea whether you

12 wrote it or not?

13 A. No, I don't. But I sure as -- no, I

14 don't.

15 Q. That's fine. Under number three,

16 "Recent Incidents Reported to Me," it says, "B,

17 We received a letter from a group of seventh

18 grade students inquiring about one of our

19 asbestos products being linked with a health

20 hazard."


22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can we conclude that it was after that

24 letter after the kids from Northeastern Junior

25 High wrote to you -- wrote to Fisher Scientific?


1 A. I believe so, yes.

2 Q. Okay. 3E says, "A very large customer

3 returned some kettle clamps," and then it gives

4 what I assume is a product number, "Number

5 11-847-3D, A, B to us because the asbestos was

6 flaking."


8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you familiar with asbestos-

10 containing kettle clamps?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know what kettle clamps are?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you have any idea whether they're

15 educational, laboratory or --

16 A. No.

17 Q. Neither do I. Did you know before I

18 just showed you this that Fisher Scientific sold

19 through its catalog asbestos-containing kettle

20 clamps?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you made aware at any time after

23 October 11th, 1978, which is the date of the

24 letter from those kids, that Fisher Scientific

25 had distributed or sold a product through its


1 catalog that had been returned because of

2 asbestos was flaking off of it?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And then section four is called "Fisher

5 Products that Contain Asbestos," correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And A is "Indiana Products," and in

8 parentheses, it says, capital CFD and

9 instrument. Do you know what "CFD" stands for?

10 A. Contempra furniture division.

11 Q. Was that at the Indiana, PA plant?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What is instrument? How is that

14 separate from the CFD?

15 A. CFD is furniture. Instruments are

16 instruments.

17 Q. Okay. And then the first paragraph

18 says, "fume hoods, worktops, furnaces, hot

19 plates, incubators, clamps, ovens, et cetera.

20 The forms of asbestos used are basically tape,

21 flexboard, marinate, insulated wire, cardboard

22 and gaskets."

23 Did I read that paragraph correctly?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you know until you just read this


1 right now that at the Indiana, PA plant the

2 Fisher products that contained asbestos included

3 fume hoods, worktops, furnaces, hot plates,

4 incubators, clamps, and ovens, et cetera?

5 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me object. It

6 assumes facts and calls for speculation.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. You can answer, sir. Did you know that

9 before you just read it?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All you knew about possibly, as I

12 understood you correctly, is the fume hoods?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Did you know about the use of asbestos

15 tape, flexboard, marinate, insulated wire,

16 cardboard or gaskets?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Would you have had any reason as the

19 next paragraph states that the dollar value of

20 these products through 9/28/78 was approximately

21 $1,707,940 with an average gross profit of 40.71

22 percent?

23 A. No, I would not. And I would like to

24 add I could care less.

25 Q. That's what I figured you would say.


1 That was not your business?

2 A. No. When it comes to safety and

3 health, I don't put dollars -- associate dollars

4 with it.

5 Q. Okay. B -- this is 4B is entitled

6 "Fair Lawn Products," and you've told me that's

7 your manufacturing facility in Fair Lawn, New

8 Jersey, correct?

9 A. For chemicals, right.

10 Q. And it says that "we sold $2,037 --

11 $2,037, average GPA 56.93 percent, worth of

12 asbestos fibers (powder) through 9/28/78. I was

13 advised that this has since been dropped from

14 our line."


16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you know that Fair Lawn sold powder

18 asbestos fibers --

19 A. No.

20 Q. -- in 1978?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Is this the first time you've ever --

23 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me -- well, I think

24 the question is vague. But you can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. Is this the first time you've ever seen

3 asbestos associated with the production facility

4 of Fisher Scientific at Fair Lawn, New Jersey?

5 A. To my knowledge, yes.

6 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. If you give me one

7 more minute to see if I'm done. I may very well

8 be done. People on the phone may have

9 questions, but I don't make them ask them.

10 Sir, you've been very patient and I

11 have no more questions for you today. I think

12 we need to find if anybody in the room has any

13 questions of Mr. Reilly. Getting a big no from

14 all three of them.

15 MR. WILLIAMS: Anybody on the phone

16 have questions?

17 DEFENSE ATTORNEYS (phone): No.

18 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to have a few

19 questions so why don't we take a short break and

20 then I'll ask mine.

21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the

22 record. The time now is 4:20.


24 from 4:20 p.m. to 4:33 p.m.)



1 beginning of tape six in today's deposition.

2 The time now is 4:33 p.m. and we're back on the

3 record.

4

5 EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAMS:

6

7 Q. My name is John Williams, the attorney

8 for Fisher Scientific.

9 Mr. Reilly, I know it's been a long day

10 for you and I don't mean to ask any questions

11 that are duplicative of what's already been

12 asked because I know you've answered a lot of

13 these questions already, but I do have a few

14 questions for you.

15 Where did you grow up, sir?

16 A. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

17 Q. Are you married?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long have you been married?

20 A. Next year it will be 50 years.

21 Q. Congratulations.

22 A. Thank you.

23 Q. Do you have children?

24 A. Yes. Three grown children.

25 Q. Do you have -- what are their ages?


1 A. 47, 45 and 42.

2 MR. HAKLAY: I'm going to lodge an

3 objection at this point to this line of

4 questioning. If you will let me have a

5 continuing objection to it, I won't interrupt

6 again.


8 MR. HAKLAY: Will you allow me to have

9 a continuing objection?

10 MR. WILLIAMS: Of course.

11 MR. HAKLAY: Thank you.

12 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

13 Q. Any grandchildren?

14 A. Four.

15 Q. What are their ages?

16 A. Set of twins are 13, grandson is 14,

17 and the other granddaughter is 11.

18 Q. I want to show you what -- what I'll

19 mark as Defendant Reilly Exhibit 1. Just so as

20 not to confuse them.

21 (Whereupon, DEFT. REILLY 1, a resume -

22 John Reilly, was then received and marked for

23 identification.)

24 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

25 Q. Can you identify what this document is?


1 A. It's my resume.

2 Q. And when was this resume prepared?

3 A. After I retired for my records.

4 Q. So about what year, approximately?

5 A. '97, '98 maybe.

6 Q. All right. In other words, it wasn't

7 prepared for this deposition?

8 A. Oh, no, no. This was in my heirlooms.

9 Q. The first entry on your resume relates

10 to military, and it says, "United States Army

11 Security Agency - Top Secret Clearance." Can

12 you explain that for me, sir?

13 A. After basic training the US Army asked

14 me to take a battery of tests, and when I

15 completed them, they said, would you like to go

16 into the Army security agency and they briefly

17 told me what it was. But they said that depends

18 on an exhaustive background check on me.

19 Q. Is top secret clearance the highest

20 level of security clearance in the military?

21 A. It was then, yes.

22 Q. What does it take to achieve that level

23 of security clearance?

24 A. I just think you have to be a straight

25 shooter and you can sit up and take nourishment


1 and you have good morals and you have no

2 criminal background or no police background and

3 you're a straight shooter.

4 Q. Is that -- well, strike that.

5 Did you -- where did you serve in the

6 military?

7 A. Philippine islands.

8 Q. What years?

9 A. 1954 to January 1957.

10 Q. What information -- going back for a

11 second to the top clearance, what information

12 are you privy to for the United States

13 government in getting that security clearance?

14 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. You want him

15 to reveal the information that's top secret?

16 MR. WILLIAMS: No. I'm talking about

17 the broad categories of the kinds of information

18 without revealing any of the specifics

19 obviously.

20 THE WITNESS: The kinds of information

21 about my duties?

22 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.

23 THE WITNESS: I think I can truthfully

24 say without revealing anything that I was a

25 radio traffic analyst which meant I deciphered


1 enemy broadcasts.

2 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

3 Q. The next category is "Education". You

4 received -- just describe what your education

5 was.

6 A. Bachelor of Science degree from

7 Duquesne University in Pittsburgh.

8 Q. And you achieved a degree?

9 A. Yes, a BS degree.

10 Q. In what? It's a Bachelor of Science

11 degree?

12 A. Yes, Bachelor of Science.

13 Q. And what year?

14 A. I graduated in 1961.

15 Q. Going back down into your -- through

16 your resume, "Professional Experience" is the

17 first thing you have and you've already

18 described in fairly good detail a lot of this

19 employment. But I wanted to just hit a couple

20 of things, if I could, real quickly. It's in

21 reverse order, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So going down to the bottom of

24 Professional Experience where you're talking

25 about Crum & Forster --


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Describe what a safety engineer is.

3 A. Excuse me. I inspected potential

4 clients for safety and then recommended to

5 underwriters whether I thought they were a poor

6 risk or a good risk.

7 Q. Now, the next entry -- and you already

8 talked about Koppers Company, which is you were

9 a division safety engineer, from 1969 to 1972 --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- is that right? And you already

12 described some of your experience. But my

13 specific question is: Did you have any

14 experience or training at that time in lab

15 safety?

16 A. Well, Koppers had labs, but no, not

17 really. I was a generalist.

18 Q. And at that time you had -- I think you

19 testified you went through the OSHA training

20 academy; is that right?

21 A. Yes. And let me clarify that a little

22 bit. I went through the training academy to

23 teach OSHA standards to teach OSHA compliance.

24 Q. I think we'll get to that. So up to

25 the point of Fisher Scientific Group, which is


1 your next item where you were the safety

2 director, when you were hired by Fisher

3 Scientific, did you have any expertise or

4 experience then in lab safety?

5 A. In general.

6 Q. And did you have any expertise or

7 experience in OSHA compliance?

8 A. Oh, my, yes. I was -- I say this

9 humbly, I was considered an expert in OSHA

10 compliance.

11 Q. Now, for Fisher Scientific, I won't go

12 into in great detail what your job duties were,

13 you were the safety director from 1972 to 1986;

14 is that correct?

15 A. Yes. The last couple of years I had

16 other duties.

17 Q. Now, did Fisher Scientific advise you

18 why they were hiring you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Why were they hiring you?

21 A. Their main reason was OSHA was brand

22 new and American industry to be honest with you

23 were scared to death. You know, this is a new

24 government bureaucracy. Fisher hired me to make

25 sure that they were in compliance with OSHA.


1 Q. What was your goal as safety director

2 in your view?

3 A. In Fisher Scientific?

4 Q. Yes. What was your charge? What was

5 your goal?

6 A. My personal goal by then, I thought

7 that safety was a very noble profession and I

8 thought that if I could in my small way

9 eliminate human misery and occupational injuries

10 and illness, that would be very gratifying. So

11 my goals were to prevent accidents, to bring

12 Fisher into compliance and to build and

13 implement a corporate-wide safety program.

14 Q. Did your goals involve in any way lab

15 safety either at Fisher Scientific itself or for

16 its customers outside?

17 A. Oh, my, yes.

18 Q. Can you describe how you implemented

19 that?

20 A. When I got to Fisher I soon found out

21 that they were -- their customers were

22 laboratory personnel. So I had to learn, number

23 one, OSHA standards that could be interpreted to

24 comply with the lab; and number two, I started

25 to do work for the sales department and the


1 marketing department. I would get a question

2 like does OSHA say anything about a fire

3 extinguisher because we sold fire extinguishers,

4 so I would teach them what OSHA said about the

5 fire extinguisher. First aid kits, fire

6 blankets.

7 And that eventually led into customer

8 workshops. And for a number of years I

9 literally gave hundreds of customer workshops on

10 lab safety throughout the United States, Puerto

11 Rico and Canada.

12 Q. I want to ask you directly: Did or did

13 not the buck stop with you at Fisher Scientific

14 to determine if any danger or hazard existed

15 with any product that Fisher Scientific supplied

16 to its customer?

17 A. The buck stopped with me.

18 Q. Let me go back to your CV, your resume,

19 for a second. Going down to near the bottom of

20 the first page, you have an entry heading that

21 says "Significant Safety Speeches/Presentations

22 and Workshops." Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the first entry is "Society of

25 Medical Technologists." Can you describe what


1 that work was?

2 A. Medical technologist is a technician

3 that works in a medical laboratory. It could be

4 a hospital, it could be a nursing home, a

5 medical lab. And they formed their own society

6 of medical technologists by state.

7 Q. What did you do for them?

8 A. I used to be invited to address their

9 conventions on laboratory safety.

10 Q. Did you also address their conventions

11 regarding OSHA compliance?

12 A. Oh, my, yes. That was always and still

13 is a big question to lab people, what does OSHA

14 say about the lab.

15 Q. And all of these locations, these

16 states, and I see Canada and Puerto Rico listed

17 as well, these are all places you went and

18 lectured on lab safety and OSHA compliance?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The next entry below that says "Fisher

21 Scientific Company - Exposition." Can you

22 explain what that work was that you did?

23 A. Yes. We used to hold conventions and I

24 was invited to give speeches on lab safety at

25 these conventions and they're the states that I


1 went to.

2 Q. And did these -- you gave lectures in

3 all of these different states?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did the lectures relate to lab

6 safety?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did the lectures relate to OSHA

9 compliance?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. About how many lectures did you give

12 for these two categories for Society of Medical

13 Technologists and Fisher Scientific Company -

14 Exposition?

15 A. In my career at Fisher?

16 Q. Yes. About how many if you could

17 ballpark.

18 A. This is a guess. My guess would be

19 500, 600.

20 Q. Over the course of how many years?

21 A. Ten, 12 years.

22 Q. Let's go to the next entry at the top

23 of the second page and there's a long paragraph

24 of institutions and entities here under the

25 heading "Other Organizations." Can you explain


1 what you're intending to mean by that? What did

2 you do for them?

3 A. Same thing. I was invited to teach lab

4 safety and OSHA compliance to those

5 organizations. By then, and again, I don't like

6 too much to talk about myself, but my name was

7 getting out there and these were invites and

8 these were companies that I taught lab safety to

9 and OSHA compliance.

10 Q. And so these were essentially safety

11 workshops that you're giving?

12 A. Yes. Except where you see Duquesne

13 University -- where you see those universities.

14 For example, at Penn State --

15 Q. Let's stay on organizations for one

16 minute.

17 A. Excuse me.

18 Q. Let me stay on organizations for one

19 minute. I won't belabor this because there's a

20 whole paragraph where you gave safety workshops.

21 About how many safety workshops or lectures did

22 you give to all of these institutions?

23 A. In my career?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Hundreds.


1 Q. Let's go to the next entry, "University

2 Safety Courses - Instructor." Can you tell us

3 what that means?

4 A. Pitt, University of Pittsburgh hired me

5 to teach a week-long safety course. Penn State

6 hired me to teach a 16-week long safety course.

7 Community College of Allegany County hired me on

8 numerous occasions to teach safety courses.

9 Q. And do these safety courses relate to

10 lab safety?

11 A. Lab safety, general safety and OSHA

12 compliance.

13 Q. And this was while you were employed by


15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Let's continue down your CV. The next

17 entry is "Published Safety Articles and

18 Interviews." Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let's take the first paragraph first.

21 What are you referring to there? Let me say

22 this -- let me just read into the record, it

23 says, "Pennsylvania Self-Insurers Association

24 (2), Industrial Research (2), Canadian Chemical

25 News, The Journal of Production Management,


1 Occupational Hazards (Interviewed) and

2 Pittsburgh Press (Interviewed)."

3 What are you talking about there?

4 A. Pennsylvania Self-Insurer Associations

5 is a group of companies in the state of

6 Pennsylvania who insure themselves, and I was

7 called by them to lecture on lab safety, general

8 safety and OSHA compliance. "Industrial

9 Research", "Canadian Chemical News", "The

10 Journal of Production Management", "Occupational

11 Hazards" are all magazines related to safety,

12 national magazines that asked me to publish

13 articles.

14 For example, in one of those magazines,

15 and I believe it was "Occupational Hazards", I

16 wrote a long article on laboratory safety for

17 the '80s.

18 Q. What about "Pittsburgh Press"?

19 A. They interviewed me when I was in

20 charge of safety at the Port Authority of

21 Allegany County. We used to unfortunately once

22 or twice a year kill somebody with a bus, and I

23 had to go and investigate the fatality so The

24 Press, that's the large newspaper in Pittsburgh,

25 wanted to know what you were doing about this.


1 Q. During the time you were at Fisher

2 Scientific were you a nationally recognized

3 safety expert?

4 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. You can

5 answer, sir.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was.

7 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

8 Q. Were you a nationally recognized lab

9 safety --

10 A. Yes, I was. Probably the premier one

11 in the United States.

12 Q. Were you a nationally recognized OSHA

13 compliance expert?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. Let's go to the next paragraph of your

16 "Published Safety Articles and Interviews."

17 I'll just read it quickly. "Published a

18 Laboratory Safety Manual for International Use.

19 Wrote and published -- wrote and produced OSHA

20 HazCom, H-A-Z-C-O-M, Training Course, wrote and

21 produced numerous safety training products."

22 Can you explain what that entry relates

23 to?

24 A. Laboratory safety manual was both a

25 safety and marketing tool publication. And I


1 basically wrote the safety section of it. And

2 it was used as a reference document in labs

3 throughout the world.

4 In fact, I have to tell you this one

5 time I was doing something for Boeing Aircraft

6 on the West Coast, and I said, what do you

7 govern your laboratory safety programs on, and

8 he handed me this manual. Well, of course, I

9 was pretty proud when I told him, thank you, I

10 wrote it.

11 Q. Let's go to the next paragraph on your

12 resume, which is "Certificates, Diplomas and

13 Awards." Now, it's a whole long paragraph and I

14 think we could probably talk for an hour about

15 all the awards, but let me ask you about a

16 couple of them. On the second line, it says,

17 "United States Department of Labor (OSHA

18 instructor, NIOSH Industrial and Laboratory

19 Safety)." Then it goes on, "National Safety

20 Council - Certificate of Recognition."

21 Can you explain what that relates to?

22 A. OSHA instructor is the course I've

23 referred to earlier that I graduated from. And

24 therefore I had their blessing to teach OSHA

25 compliance. NIOSH is the National Institute of


1 Occupational Safety and Health. I attended a

2 laboratory safety with NIOSH. National Safety

3 Council is the largest safety organization in

4 the world and I was recognized by them for some

5 of my work.

6 Q. Next couple of lines down in that same

7 paragraph, it says, "International Golden Eagle

8 Award (Two Safety Motion Pictures)." What does

9 that relate to?

10 A. I wrote two laboratory safety movies.

11 And the second one we hired Jack Klugman from

12 "Quincy" fame to narrate it. And when he read

13 my script and his agent, and he said for this

14 amount of money, I'll do it and --

15 Q. Did he say why?

16 A. Yes. He said it's a story that has to

17 be told.

18 MR. HAKLAY: Objection to the hearsay.

19 Go ahead, sir.

20 THE WITNESS: So I flew to Hollywood

21 and we picked up Mr. Klugman at his house and I

22 worked with him for about five hours to produce

23 this movie. Those movies were entered into the

24 film festival in Cannes, France and they both

25 won the Golden Eagle award.


1 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

2 Q. So your movie won an award in Cannes?

3 A. Both movies.

4 Q. Do you recall what year that was?

5 A. The one with Jack Klugman was 1981.

6 I'm going to guess and say the one -- the other

7 one was a few years prior.

8 Q. Okay. The last paragraph in your

9 resume relates to memberships. And again, it's

10 a rather long paragraph. But are there any

11 memberships here that are applicable or that the

12 finder of fact here in this case might want to

13 know about?

14 A. Well, yes. I'm a member of the

15 American Society of Safety Engineers.

16 Q. What does it take to become a member of

17 that?

18 A. You have to be somebody in the safety

19 profession and make some contributions. I'm a

20 professional member. I worked for and I was on

21 the board of directors of the Western

22 Pennsylvania Safety Council.

23 Q. What about the next entry, "Who's Who

24 in the Safety Profession," what is that?

25 A. That's a book of safety professionals.


1 And, again, you have to have some

2 accomplishments and they contacted me and asked

3 me if I would like to be included in their

4 publication and I said yes.

5 Q. When were you first included? If you

6 recall.

7 A. I don't know the year. But it was the

8 first publication of who's who in the safety

9 profession.

10 Q. What about -- one more entry because we

11 can't spend all day talking about all of these

12 memberships and awards you have. But one that

13 maybe bears notice, "Marquis, M-A-R-Q-U-I-S,

14 Who's Who in the East," what does that relate

15 to?

16 A. "Marquis" is the publication that

17 publishes who's who in the world. They ask me

18 to get into their publication "Who's Who in the

19 East," and that includes Eastern Canadian

20 provinces and all Eastern states down to

21 Florida. And they put you in there if they feel

22 that you've contributed something.

23 Q. Do you recall what year that was that

24 you became a member of that society?

25 A. No. I have it at home, but no, I


1 don't.

2 Q. You had talked earlier about

3 interviewing over the vast course of your career

4 medical professionals about lab safety issues.

5 Do you recall that?

6 A. Well, all of these workshops were

7 attended by pathologists and medical

8 technologists and laboratory managers and

9 laboratory employees. And they had hundreds and

10 hundreds of questions so it would interface.

11 Q. So you're talking about multiple

12 meetings with doctors and pathologists of all

13 different sorts?

14 A. Yes. To better answer it, let me try

15 to give you an example. Two large hospitals in

16 Pittsburgh are Mercy Hospital and St. Clara

17 Hospital and I was asked to come in and put

18 safety programs into their labs which I did.

19 Q. In all of the interviews and all the

20 discussions that you had with all the doctors

21 and medical professionals, pathologists that

22 you've described, did any of them ever raise any

23 concern about the safety of the asbestos-

24 containing lab products that we're talking about

25 here, gloves, wire gauze, mittens?


1 A. No.

2 Q. I want to direct a few questions to you

3 specifically about these asbestos-containing lab

4 products that we're talking about here today,

5 gloves, mittens, and wire gauze with asbestos

6 centers, okay?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. I want to talk about those products

9 that Fisher Scientific sold. Is it your

10 understanding that Fisher Scientific did not

11 manufacture those products?

12 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Leading.

13 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

14 Q. Well, did Fisher Scientific manufacture

15 those products?

16 A. Gloves, mats and that wire mesh, no.

17 Q. Did Fisher Scientific --


19 MR. HAKLAY: Sir, I'm sorry. I'm going

20 to interject an objection. It does not mean I'm

21 approving or disapproving your answer. Same

22 thing, let me enter it if I'm going to and then

23 answer the question.

24 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

25 Q. Have you ever worn personally Fisher


1 Scientific gloves or mittens?

2 A. Oh, sure. On occasion I've put them

3 on, sure.

4 Q. Have you ever worn Fisher Scientific

5 asbestos-containing gloves on occasion?

6 A. Sure.

7 Q. Were you ever afraid to put them on?

8 A. No.

9 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Relevance.

10 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

11 Q. Were you ever afraid to wear them?

12 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Relevance.

13 THE WITNESS: No.

14 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

15 Q. Have you ever handled asbestos-

16 containing wire gauze pads?

17 A. I've picked up pads.

18 Q. Were you ever afraid to pick them up?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you ever afraid to manipulate

21 them?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Let me be clear about -- let me ask you

24 a few questions very specifically because I

25 don't want there to be any confusion about it.


1 Did you ever have any knowledge or

2 belief that these asbestos-containing lab

3 products that we're talking about, gloves,

4 mittens, wire gauze with asbestos centers were

5 hazardous or dangerous in any way?

6 A. No. Never ever ever. And I still

7 don't believe it.

8 Q. Did you ever see any evidence to that

9 effect?

10 A. No. No written research, publicity,

11 no.

12 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that they were

13 dangerous or hazardous?

14 A. Not really.

15 Q. Did you ever have any reason to believe

16 that they were dangerous or hazardous?

17 MR. HAKLAY: Objection.

18 THE WITNESS: No.

19 MR. HAKLAY: You can answer. You did

20 answer.

21 THE WITNESS: No.

22 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

23 Q. Did you ever feel during your time at

24 Fisher Scientific that you had any reason to

25 warn Fisher Scientific customers that any of


1 those asbestos-containing lab products were

2 dangerous or hazardous?

3 A. No. I --

4 Q. Let me ask you next --

5 MR. HAKLAY: I'm sorry, he wasn't

6 finished with his answer.

7 MR. WILLIAMS: Did you have anything

8 else?

9 MR. HAKLAY: He was starting to say

10 something.

11 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let me be clear --

12 THE WITNESS: Fisher Scientific Company

13 from management on down, from Ben Fisher of the

14 original Fisher family, were very, very moral

15 ethical people. I believe I'm an ethical moral

16 person. Working for a company like that was

17 just wonderful. If anyone in that company from

18 Ben Fisher on down or myself thought that we

19 were harming people with these lab products, we

20 would have done something.

21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

22 Q. What would you have done --

23 MR. HAKLAY: Hold on. Let me move to

24 strike the nonresponsive portions.

25 BY MR. WILLIAMS:


1 Q. If you had learned hypothetically that

2 there was any hazard or danger to these

3 asbestos-containing lab products, which you have

4 said there was not, what would you have done?


6 THE WITNESS: Told them to immediately

7 discontinue.

8 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

9 Q. Let me be clear about a few other

10 questions. Did you while you were at Fisher

11 Scientific have any knowledge or belief that any

12 of these asbestos-containing lab products that

13 we're talking about, gloves, mittens, wire gauze

14 with asbestos centers, violated OSHA standards?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you -- while you were at Fisher

17 Scientific or any other time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. While you were at Fisher Scientific or

20 any other time, did you ever have any knowledge

21 or belief that the use of these asbestos-

22 containing lab products, gloves, mittens, wire

23 gauze with asbestos centers, released airborne

24 fibers of asbestos?

25 A. No.


1 Q. To your knowledge has Fisher Scientific

2 ever put a customer at risk --


4 MR. WILLIAMS: -- by its --

5 MR. HAKLAY: I didn't know you weren't

6 finished with the question.

7 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

8 Q. To your knowledge has Fisher Scientific

9 ever put a customer at risk by selling a

10 dangerous product?

11 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. You can

12 answer, sir.

13 THE WITNESS: Knowingly, no.

14 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

15 Q. Have you ever knowingly allowed Fisher

16 Scientific to sell a hazardous or unsafe

17 product?

18 A. Knowingly, no.

19 MR. HAKLAY: I'd like to enter an

20 objection to that last question, I'm sorry, on

21 the record.

22 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

23 Q. You've already testified to at some

24 point these asbestos-containing lab products

25 that we're talking about, gloves, mittens, wire


1 gauze with asbestos centers, were discontinued

2 by Fisher Scientific, right?

3 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Leading.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

6 Q. Well, let me ask you: At some point

7 were these products discontinued?

8 A. Yes, I believe so. Yes.

9 Q. Who made the decision to discontinue

10 them?

11 A. Me.

12 Q. Approximately when did you make the

13 decision to discontinue them?

14 A. Late '70s. Middle to late '70s.

15 Q. Let's be clear about this. What was

16 the reason for your decision to discontinue

17 these asbestos-containing lab products, gloves,

18 mittens and wire gauze with asbestos center?

19 A. Because of future headaches.

20 Q. What do you mean by that?

21 A. Why keep getting punched in the mouth

22 when you don't have to. Why fool around with

23 little products that asbestos was the thing.

24 And you even saw today where some people said

25 forbidden and avoiding. So let's get out of


1 that business so we don't have adverse publicity

2 and tons of correspondence and hundreds of

3 telephone calls and frivolous lawsuits. It's

4 not worth it.

5 Q. Did your decision to discontinue these

6 asbestos-containing lab products, gloves,

7 mittens, wire gauze with asbestos center, have

8 anything to do with safety concerns?

9 A. None whatsoever.

10 MR. HAKLAY: Objection to that

11 question.

12 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

13 Q. Was the -- was your decision to

14 discontinue these asbestos-containing lab

15 products done in any way because you believe

16 they were dangerous or hazardous?

17 A. No.

18 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Leading. Sir,

19 if you could, when I start talking just let me

20 finish my objection just like before, okay?

21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

22 Q. You had a discussion earlier with

23 counsel on direct talking about something -- or

24 a catalog reference to the effect "meets OSHA

25 requirements" and you wanted that language out


1 of the catalog; is that right? Do you recall

2 that?

3 A. Yes. I really wanted "OSHA approved"

4 out of the catalog and then let in the "meet

5 OSHA requirements", yes.

6 Q. And why did you want that language

7 stricken? What's wrong with that language?

8 A. OSHA doesn't approve products, number

9 one. And if OSHA has a standard and it tells

10 you to comply with it, it doesn't tell you what

11 product to buy to comply with it.

12 Q. Did your desire to have that language

13 out of the catalog have anything to do -- relate

14 in any way to a belief that those products were

15 in any way dangerous or hazardous?

16 A. No, no. I mean my belief was "meets

17 OSHA products" and "OSHA approved" is a lie so

18 don't say it.

19 Q. Because -- but it doesn't have anything

20 to do with the product itself being unsafe?

21 A. No.

22 Q. It has to do with the requirements of

23 OSHA and things don't technically comply or not

24 comply; is that right?

25 MR. HAKLAY: Objection to the leading


1 nature of that entire question.

2 THE WITNESS: Right.

3 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

4 Q. Is that right?

5 A. Yes. And I think personally I feel

6 that you might be safe in saying this certain

7 product will help you comply with an OSHA

8 standard.

9 Q. Okay. Let me mark another exhibit.

10 (Whereupon, DEFT. REILLY 2, a letter -


12 identification.)

13 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

14 Q. And we'll call this Reilly Exhibit 2,

15 Defendant Reilly Exhibit 2.

16 You were shown on direct by counsel the

17 -- which is marked as Reilly Exhibit 3 -- OSHA's

18 January 23, 1976 response to your December 3,

19 1975 letter, but he didn't show you your actual

20 letter so that's what I'm marking. That's what

21 I'm marking here.

22 MR. HAKLAY: I have an objection to any

23 questions regarding this document, which was

24 despite clear requests in three different cases

25 not produced to Plaintiffs' counsel in Feldner,


1 Zakanych or Blackburn.

2 MR. WILLIAMS: I don't necessarily

3 agree with that, but note your objection.

4 MR. HAKLAY: You don't agree that it

5 wasn't produced?

6 MR. WILLIAMS: Are you asking me do I

7 have a working knowledge of every document that

8 was produced in those three cases? And I can

9 recite to you as I sit here --

10 MR. HAKLAY: You said, I don't agree

11 with what you said.

12 MR. WILLIAMS: I said, I don't

13 necessarily agree with what you said.

14 MR. HAKLAY: Can I have a continuous

15 objection to any questions about this document

16 based on my objection?

17 MR. WILLIAMS: I note your objection.

18 MR. HAKLAY: Can I have a continuing

19 objection to any questions about this document?

20 MR. WILLIAMS: Certainly.

21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

22 Q. Can you identify what this document is?

23 A. Well, apparently, it's the second time

24 I wrote this gentleman, David Rhone, asking

25 would you please clarify 1910.1001.


1 Q. This is dated December 3, 1975; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall why you wrote to OSHA on

5 that date?

6 A. I'm not sure. I believe that they

7 didn't answer the first letter.

8 Q. Well --

9 A. Maybe they answered it. Not to my

10 satisfaction. But I'm not sure.

11 Q. Without having to belabor showing you a

12 lot of exhibits, let me refresh your

13 recollection, if I can, that -- I want to show

14 you Reilly Exhibit 7, which was the letter that

15 was shown to you that's dated -- what's the date

16 on that letter?

17 A. November 6, '78.

18 Q. All right. So the letter that I'm now

19 showing you, what's the date on that letter?

20 A. '75.

21 Q. So Reilly Defendant's Exhibit 2 is an

22 earlier letter than the one you were shown

23 before; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So why did you write this first letter


1 on December 3, 1975 to OSHA?

2 A. Because I want to know does your

3 standard apply to laboratory products that are

4 made of asbestos.

5 Q. Okay. You state in part, in your

6 second sentence, let me just read it, "I would

7 appreciate your clarification of the asbestos

8 standard 1910.1001. I interpret the standard to

9 apply to any process involving the release of

10 airborne asbestos fibers. I believe that

11 laboratory products are made -- that are made

12 from asbestos, i.e. gloves, finger cots, mats,

13 fire blankets, are exempt from this standard

14 because their use does not liberate airborne

15 fibers. Your clarification and cooperation is

16 greatly appreciated." And it's -- it's not

17 signed, but it says "John R. Reilly, Corporate

18 Safety Director" as the sender.


20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you have any recollection as you sit

22 here today of writing OSHA in December of 1975?

23 A. No, not the date. I just know even

24 before this whole shebang started that I had

25 some correspondence with OSHA regarding asbestos


1 and laboratory safety products. I recall that.

2 Q. Okay. Did you -- did anybody advise

3 you or instruct you to write OSHA in 1975 or did

4 you do it on your own?

5 A. On my own.

6 Q. Rather than giving you new exhibits, I

7 want to show you the exhibits that have been

8 previously marked if they have been. I want to

9 show you again Reilly Exhibit 6, which is the

10 letter from the Northeastern School District,

11 and ask you just a couple of questions about

12 that.

13 Now, let's just be frank about this.

14 Was this letter dated October 11, 1978, the

15 impetus for you looking into or initiating your

16 process at Fisher Scientific to discontinue the

17 asbestos-containing lab products, gloves,

18 mittens, asbestos wire gauze with asbestos

19 centers?


21 THE WITNESS: No connection at all.

22 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

23 Q. So if someone implied or said that

24 Fisher Scientific didn't start the process of

25 discontinuing these asbestos-containing lab


1 products and that somehow this letter, which is

2 marked as Reilly Exhibit 6 was the impetus for

3 you to do so, that would be incorrect?


5 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. It would be

6 untrue.

7 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

8 Q. That's all the questions I have about

9 that exhibit.

10 Let me show you next what has

11 previously been marked as Reilly Exhibit 11

12 which is the -- which is a document dated

13 December 5, 1978. You've already been asked by

14 counsel about that; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it talks about -- it's a very short

17 letter and it says, "Dear Jack: We have decided

18 to drop from our listing in our new catalog wire

19 gauze with asbestos centers because of all the

20 problems that may arise with asbestos." And

21 you've already answered questions about that.

22 But here's my question to you: Did the

23 decision to drop wire gauze with asbestos

24 centers have anything to do with receiving the

25 letter marked as Reilly Exhibit 6 which is from


1 the Northeastern School District?

2 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Hold on, sir.

3 THE WITNESS: No, no.

4 MR. HAKLAY: Hold on. Objection. Go

5 ahead.

6 THE WITNESS: No. I do not think so,

7 no.

8 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

9 Q. I want to show you next what was

10 previously marked as Reilly Exhibit 13, which is

11 the December 18, 1978 letter that you wrote back

12 to Mr. Charles Kohler at the Northeastern Junior

13 High School. And Counsel's already asked you

14 questions about that document. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My question to you is very simple: Did

17 you ever hear again from either Mr. Kohler or

18 anybody at Northeastern Junior High School

19 responding to your questions about identifying

20 the product that they were asking you about?

21 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

22 Q. Okay. That's all the questions I have

23 about that document.

24 I want to mark what's been identified

25 as Defendant's Exhibit 3, which I don't believe


1 has been marked, but, Counsel, correct me if

2 you've already marked it, but I don't believe

3 you have, which is March 23, 1979 letter from

4 the Department of Labor.

5 (Whereupon, DEFT. REILLY 3, a letter -


7 identification.)

8 MR. HAKLAY: Before you do so, I have

9 an objection to the use of this document which

10 has not been produced in any of the three cases

11 that are noticed here by Fisher Scientific to

12 counsel for any of the three Plaintiffs, which

13 is our firm in all cases.

14 Will you allow me to have a continuing

15 objection to the use of this document and any

16 questions or references to it?

17 MR. WILLIAMS: Again, I don't

18 necessarily agree with the factual premise of

19 your objection. But you may certainly have a

20 continuing objection.

21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

22 Q. Mr. Reilly, let me ask you a few

23 questions about this. Can you identify this

24 document?

25 A. I don't remember it, no.


1 Q. It's identified as a letter from the US

2 Department of Labor, Bruce Hillenbrand dated

3 March 23, 1979. Is that what the document says?

4 And it appears to be to you, John R. Reilly.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it says, "Thank you" -- "Dear

7 Mr. Reilly: Thank you for your letter of

8 November 6, 1978 concerning the OSHA asbestos

9 standard 29 CFR 1910.1001. Please accept my

10 apology for our delay in replying." It goes on

11 to say, "During normal use of the asbestos

12 laboratory products named in your letter,

13 exposures are expected to be low and thus would

14 comply with the OSHA asbestos standard. The

15 asbestos standard does apply during the

16 manufacture, cutting, grinding, drilling and

17 sawing of these items, as well as during

18 operations which involve cleaning them with a

19 wire brush or extensive shaking (of fire

20 blankets, for instance). It goes on.

21 Do you have any recollection of

22 receiving this letter from OSHA?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you have any recollection of having

25 a view about what OSHA was telling you in its


1 response to your second letter to them?

2 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. In addition to

3 my standing objection to the nature of that

4 question.

5 THE WITNESS: You mean do I have any

6 comments on this letter that I'm looking at

7 here?

8 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: I would say unless you

10 cut, abrade, grind or drill or saw it, you're in

11 compliance.

12 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

13 Q. Did OSHA indicate to you that these

14 products that you asked about did not comply

15 with OSHA standards?


17 THE WITNESS: No.

18 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

19 Q. I just have a few more questions for

20 you and I want to find the exhibit that was

21 previously marked.

22 Let me show you what was previously

23 marked as Reilly Exhibit 16. And counsel

24 already asked you some questions about this

25 Reilly Exhibit 16 -- actually, let me give you


1 -- can you find Reilly Exhibit 16 in your stack?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. HAKLAY: Can you tell me what

4 that's dated so I can find it in mine?

5 THE WITNESS: 16, yes.

6 MR. HAKLAY: What's the date on that?

7 THE WITNESS: June 28, 1979.

8 MR. HAKLAY: Thank you.

9 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

10 Q. It's a two-sided document. Do you see

11 that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in the first paragraph relating to

14 gloves and mittens, it says, "Although sales are

15 $83,000 at a good profit margin, I have asked

16 Bill to pursue discontinuance with marketing.

17 Bill will continue to look for an acceptable

18 source, but in the meantime we will get out of

19 the business after selling off our inventory."

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall at the time you

23 recommended discontinuing these asbestos-

24 containing lab products that Fisher was going to

25 continue to sell off its existing inventory?


1 MR. HAKLAY: I'm going to object just

2 because this is to Mr. Reilly and not from

3 Mr. Reilly.

4 MR. WILLIAMS: I understand that.

5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure of that, but

6 I will say that I believe that selling off the

7 inventory would be okay because they don't cause

8 a health hazard.

9 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

10 Q. Would Fisher have sold off the existing

11 inventory of its gloves and mittens that

12 contained asbestos if they believed it was a

13 safety or health hazard?

14 A. Absolutely.

15 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Go ahead.

16 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not.

17 BY MR. WILLIAMS:

18 Q. Why not?


20 THE WITNESS: Fisher Scientific was a

21 moral ethical company and so am I a moral

22 ethical human being. And we would not

23 deliberately, if we had knowledge, sell a

24 product that would hurt somebody.

25 BY MR. WILLIAMS:


1 Q. You know you were asked several

2 questions today from counsel where you responded

3 that you didn't recall the answer to the

4 question. These events that you were asked

5 about in large part occurred between 35 and 40

6 years ago; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. WILLIAMS: I don't have any other

9 questions.

10 MR. HAKLAY: Does anybody in the room

11 have any questions? Okay.

12 I have a couple of questions. Can we

13 go on? It won't take long.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes. And then I better

15 notify somebody out there --

16 MR. HAKLAY: I have what I think is

17 just a few minutes of questioning.

18 THE WITNESS: Okay, sir.

19

20 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY:

21

22 Q. Congratulations, by the way.

23 Mr. Williams went through your curriculum vitae

24 or your resume -- or whatever you want to call

25 it -- with you, correct?


1 A. I call it a resume.

2 Q. I just didn't want to get it wrong.

3 And you talked about all your experience and

4 your organizations, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That you've spoken to and you've

7 lectured to or that you've written to or that

8 you're a member of, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you've said when it comes to OSHA

11 compliance, I think you said not to brag, you

12 said, I'm considered somewhat of an expert on

13 OSHA compliance, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. And you even list some of the

16 things you've lectured about like fire safety in

17 this document, that's the first defendant

18 exhibit, right?

19 A. I guess I do.

20 Q. Okay. Did you talk about OSHA

21 compliance with asbestos standards to these

22 groups?

23 A. If it came up, yes.

24 Q. Do you specifically recall ever being

25 asked to come speak to a group about OSHA


1 compliance with asbestos?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And, indeed, I think three different

4 times during our question and answer today you

5 told me that you do not consider yourself an

6 expert on asbestos, correct?


8 Q. Okay. You do, however, consider

9 yourself an expert on other safety issues that

10 have corresponding OSHA standards, correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. So you're not afraid to call yourself

13 an expert and you're willing to tell everybody

14 what you are an expert on and what you're not an

15 expert on, right?


17 THE WITNESS: I'm willing to tell

18 everybody that I'm an expert on something if I'm

19 an expert on something.

20 BY MR. HAKLAY:

21 Q. Right. And you're modest enough to say

22 what you're not an expert on?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And I think you said when it came to

25 asbestos safety at Fisher, the buck stopped with


1 you, correct?

2 A. All safety stopped with me.

3 Q. That is absolutely correct. You stated

4 that all -- when it came to safety at Fisher

5 Scientific in any way, the buck stopped with

6 you, correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Because you were the corporate safety

9 director?

10 A. And the "expert".

11 Q. Right. Even though as you've just

12 acknowledged -- leave that aside.

13 What did you mark the December 3rd 1975

14 letter, sorry, sir? It was one of the defense

15 ones.

16 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me be clear.

17 Defense 2.

18 MR. HAKLAY: I managed to keep three

19 documents straight. Can I see these so I can

20 pick something out of it and mess up the order

21 for the court reporter.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at what

24 was marked as Reilly 3 from this morning and

25 Defense Reilly -- I'll put a delta sign --


1 Defense Reilly 2 from late this afternoon.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. What's marked as Reilly 3 dated January

4 23rd, 1976 refers to the letter -- your letter

5 of December 3, 1975 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the defense exhibit marked this

8 afternoon is your letter of December 3, 1975;

9 isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. So one is a response to the

12 other, right?

13 A. It appears that to be the case.

14 Q. And in your letter, the December 3rd

15 one, you gave your belief as to what the OSHA

16 standard applies to, right?


18 Document speaks for itself. Object to the form.

19 It's also leading.

20 THE WITNESS: I say I interpreted the

21 standard to say this.

22 BY MR. HAKLAY:

23 Q. And you say that certain products you

24 believe are exempt from the standard for the

25 specific reason that their use doesn't liberate


1 airborne fibers, right?


3 Document speaks for itself.

4 THE WITNESS: That's what I say here,

5 but I also believe that they do not cause health

6 hazards.

7 BY MR. HAKLAY:

8 Q. I'm not asking about that.

9 A. Well --

10 Q. In this letter to OSHA --


12 answer.

13 THE WITNESS: I'm answering it that way

14 because fire blankets, finger cots, gloves and

15 mats, nobody in the world had any knowledge of

16 those products and a health hazard. I didn't

17 say that specifically.

18 BY MR. HAKLAY:

19 Q. Specifically in the letter to OSHA you

20 believed those products were exempt from the

21 OSHA standards because their use doesn't

22 liberate asbestos fibers?


24 Q. And in his response to you, someone

25 signed it for Mr. Rhone, I think we've pointed


1 out, doesn't state that they're exempt because

2 they don't liberate fibers. He actually says in

3 the second paragraph that the standard doesn't

4 apply to customer use of those products,

5 correct?


7 speaks for itself.

8 THE WITNESS: I guess.

9 BY MR. HAKLAY:

10 Q. Isn't that what it says in the second

11 paragraph?

12 A. And not addressed by this standard.

13 Q. And indeed to respond to your term of

14 liberating airborne fibers, the response says,

15 "the release and extent of release of airborne

16 fibers can only be determined by monitoring,"

17 correct? Yes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And no monitoring of those products

20 sold through the Fisher catalog was ever ordered

21 or done by Fisher while you were the person at

22 whose desk the buck stopped, correct?


24 THE WITNESS: Because they didn't

25 liberate airborne contaminants.


1 BY MR. HAKLAY:

2 Q. No monitoring was ever done during your

3 tenure at Fisher Scientific of those products

4 for airborne asbestos release?

5 A. That is correct because there's no need

6 to.

7 Q. Let me see if I have any other

8 questions. You can put those down. I don't

9 have any other questions about those.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. You mentioned the National Safety

12 Council. It's on your resume somewhere.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. Let me try to find out where. Counsel,

15 do you know where it is?

16 A. Where it's located? In Chicago.

17 Q. Where it's located on your resume.

18 A. I'm sorry.

19 Q. Here it is under "Certificates,

20 Diplomas and Awards." You have a certificate of

21 recognition in a fire science course from the

22 National Safety Council and congratulations.

23 Were you a member -- was Fisher a member of the

24 National Safety Council when you were there?

25 A. Sure.


1 Q. When you joined Fisher Scientific in

2 1972, was the company a member of the National

3 Safety Council?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When did they become one?

6 A. When I got there.

7 Q. Did you have something to do with that,

8 it sounds like you did?

9 A. I had everything to do with it. I said

10 to Fisher, and I'm repeating that they listen to

11 what I had to say, I said, we're going to join

12 the National Safety Council.

13 Q. Why did you tell them that that is

14 important that they pay the dues and join the

15 council?

16 A. Because that's the leading safety

17 authority in the world.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And the leading library of research in

20 the world.

21 MR. HAKLAY: That is all I have for

22 you.

23 MR. WILLIAMS: Nothing further.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

25 MR. HAKLAY: We are done for the day.


1 I appreciate your patience. It's been a long

2 day and I know you've never done this before.

3 THE WITNESS: I haven't. Thank you.


5 tape six from today's deposition of John Reilly.

6 We're going off the record at the time now is

7 5:26 p.m.

8

9 (Whereupon, the deposition

10 concluded at 5:26 p.m.)

11

12 * * * * *

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


1 STATE OF NEW YORK)

2 SS:

3 COUNTY OF ERIE)

4

5

6 I, MICHELE CANNATA-SMITH, a Notary

7 Public in and for the State of New York, County

8 of Erie, DO HEREBY CERTIFY, that the proceedings

9 were taken down by me in a verbatim manner by

10 means of Machine Shorthand on March 1, 2011,

11 that the proceedings were taken to be used in

12 the above-entitled action.

13 I further CERTIFY that the

14 above-described transcript constitutes a true,

15 accurate and complete transcript of the

16 testimony.

17

18

19

20

21

22 MICHELE CANNATA-SMITH,

23 Notary Public, RPR, CRR

24

25


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1971 26:24 135:8,14135:19 137:2146:11

1972 18:21,22 19:2138:11 44:23,25 50:551:22 52:12,18 53:655:21 56:11 65:479:8,8,18 134:11135:5,14 231:6,12304:9 305:13 348:2

1973 79:221974 149:1 150:25

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328:19 330:1 331:1331:22 332:3343:13 344:5,8

1976 159:18 160:17264:6 328:18 344:4

1977 169:8 174:6,18177:6 178:16184:18

1978 191:2,6 193:23194:19 195:12,15196:24 200:4 205:6205:7 212:23214:11 215:4 220:4220:10 222:6223:16 225:1,9227:2,19 228:21230:12 232:12234:2 236:23237:24 239:1,15,16242:12 243:17244:19,19,25247:10,17,25 248:2250:25 252:6 257:4271:19 272:10294:23 297:20332:14 333:13334:11 336:8

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anderson's 185:24186:4,5

andrew 1:3 8:8 10:7133:8

answer 11:1,4 12:2113:1,5 14:8,1515:17 17:18 18:1519:16 28:17 29:7,1230:10 34:10 36:1937:15 43:10 45:448:16,17 49:6 50:1451:17,18 53:11 54:957:23 58:11 59:9,1160:11,12 61:13,2262:6 63:13 71:375:3 76:14 77:978:7 80:1,15 81:1983:6 84:2 86:1,1086:21,24 87:2588:11,20 89:5,6,1290:23,25 92:2393:15 95:5 96:1497:5 98:6,18,2599:15 101:8,10,22102:2,6 103:7,13105:15 106:2,19108:24 109:17

[acceptable - answer] Page 3


110:5,24 111:24114:1 115:24116:24 117:8,15118:3,14 119:1120:4,6,11,23 121:1122:5 123:13,14,20124:7,8,21 125:2,21126:20 128:6 130:3130:17,23 135:11136:11 137:15138:23 140:1,17141:5 142:9 143:22143:24 145:13,14145:16 146:17,18149:3 151:2,13152:6,18 153:5154:17 155:4,9157:15 158:15159:6 160:12 161:8162:12 164:1,9165:5,7,13,22 166:6166:22 168:5,7170:6,19 171:2172:19 173:15174:20 175:9,9,25176:20 177:12178:3,6,23,24 179:3185:1,2,8 186:17,17187:8,9 189:10192:1,16 193:16196:6 197:22 199:5199:10 203:1,23204:13 206:8207:15 208:7,9,19209:20 210:6211:10 216:25217:4 218:11219:20 220:13,17220:18,21,23 223:2223:21 224:5,19225:14 226:8227:10,25 228:12229:7,24 230:25237:3 239:3 240:1240:17 241:7

244:20 245:2246:12 247:5,15252:2 254:1,2,8,17256:12 258:5,23259:25 261:10262:4 263:14264:24 266:9,12267:2,3 268:22271:18 274:6,25275:2 277:14281:11 283:1,4,6284:3 289:9 290:15290:18 291:4 296:8297:24 313:5318:14 319:21,23321:19,20 322:6324:12 330:7 340:3342:4 345:12

answered 31:1 32:759:8 63:11 76:1386:9 87:24 94:1098:24 99:23 108:23110:24 117:5123:13 130:23140:3 168:7 177:11178:22,25 197:7205:9,15 208:8,17209:20 215:7 217:5217:15 218:18,23218:25 220:24223:15 227:9 235:1238:23 239:25253:23 259:24274:24 284:3299:12 330:9333:21

answering 41:23245:5 254:22 274:2345:13

answers 164:1 195:9199:15 228:11249:1 266:21 267:6271:12

anybody 30:13 39:739:10 63:17 67:22

68:1 80:13 82:11,2085:23 98:8 100:5101:3 111:15,21112:12,21,24115:10 116:3,9129:24 144:19146:12 167:10171:24,25 188:2205:9 215:5 216:12225:8 235:20,21239:2,15 243:12245:4 261:22 262:3265:20 275:23277:1,18 298:12,15332:2 334:18340:10

anymore 204:9anyway 195:10apologize 172:8

194:15 258:14apology 336:10apparently 31:18

156:22 254:11289:25 329:23

appear 132:18148:24 184:2 192:7206:24 252:19

appeared 10:15appearing 5:5,8,11

5:15,19,23 6:3,6,106:15,19,23 7:3,7

appears 150:9 169:1169:22 172:14173:1 180:22210:17,22 212:18221:9 336:4 344:13

apples 162:15applicable 316:11applied 188:12,16applies 344:16apply 33:22 167:22

200:18 224:2 331:3331:9 336:15 346:4

appreciate 165:3193:16 195:23

198:6 200:16220:21,22 331:7349:1

appreciated 331:16appreciation 198:7approach 279:18approached 174:17appropriate 58:3

100:24 154:9approval 128:14

129:5approve 56:10

128:21 152:19155:11 327:8

approved 56:9,2083:10 89:11 90:891:6 128:10 129:3155:1,17 213:17,19214:14 215:1 327:3327:17

approving 319:21approximate 45:6approximately 8:4

41:9,10 42:8 45:845:12 53:6 117:19235:9 296:20 301:4325:12

approximating 12:2approximation

11:20,21april 26:24 278:15

284:16arch 5:10ardman 16:8area 27:7,8 35:14

40:24 41:6 100:18101:17 102:24

areas 48:5arena 211:12 291:6argumentative

87:23 101:22102:15 164:24165:19 220:7,12256:10 281:10

[answer - argumentative] Page 4


arising 92:20arkansas 54:20,24

63:9army 301:10,13,16arrange 61:5article 312:16articles 255:11

259:9 311:17312:13 313:16

asbestos 1:19,20 7:88:12 19:14 29:1,1629:20 30:5 32:10,2032:25 34:6 61:10,1661:19,21 63:9,1978:4,18 86:16,2387:5,9,16,17,17,1787:19 88:7,8,23,2488:25,25 89:1,1690:2,3 94:9,1395:10,14,19,24 96:396:23 97:13 98:9,2299:4,10,11,20105:13,18,19,23106:5,15 107:2108:8,18 109:22,23110:17 111:7,10,16112:18 116:4,8,15117:23,25 118:19118:20 119:3,15,20119:23,23 120:15120:17,18 121:7,16121:17 122:7,9123:9,25 124:2125:16 126:16,21127:9,9 129:15,19130:7,14,14,16,18130:25 133:12137:10 138:7,12,15139:18 140:7 142:4142:6,16,20 143:3143:17,18 144:4,20146:13,23,23 147:2147:6,8,10,21150:13,24 151:5,9151:10,16,18 158:6

158:8,11 159:16160:24 161:11162:4 169:20 170:2170:15,25 171:17173:5,7,24 174:2,2174:3,14,15,22175:4,20 176:11177:1,2,7,15,20,21178:7,13 179:5180:5,25 182:21,25183:20 184:5185:15,21,25 187:3187:18,20 188:5,12188:14 189:1,5191:14,15,16,19,20191:21,23 193:8196:7 197:1,5,8,8200:17,19,21201:14,19 202:8,11202:18 204:8,18208:1,12,20 209:8209:25 210:2,10213:22 215:11216:18 217:8,14,20217:25 219:2,16221:14 222:1,2,4,10222:22 223:7,10,25224:7,8,24 225:11225:23 226:6,12,18226:25 227:21228:15,21 229:4230:3,9,14,22 231:8231:18 232:18234:13,15,20 235:8235:11,13,15,16236:4,20,24 237:7237:25 238:12239:22 240:7,8,13240:22 241:2242:12,15,17245:11,19,23 246:2246:9,18,22 247:2248:2,4 249:6,18,25251:4,12 255:2,8,10255:25 257:5,13,19

257:22 258:25259:4 261:14,24262:9,12 268:19269:7 271:2,18273:2,24 274:20277:6,22 278:17279:16 281:4,5,25282:6,13,17 283:10284:22,25 286:9,16287:21 288:22289:4,22 291:23293:1,19 294:5,9,19295:2,5,20 296:2,14297:12,18 298:3318:23 319:3,5320:5,15 321:2,4322:1 323:3,12,14323:21,23,24324:24 325:1,17,18325:23 326:6,7,14331:4,7,10,12,25332:17,18,18,25333:19,20,23 336:8336:11,14,15338:23 339:12341:21 342:1,6,25345:22 347:4

asbestosis 139:9,13139:20 140:4,8142:22 143:11,19146:14

aside 148:9 155:23168:16 189:16212:9 226:1 231:25241:19 272:1 287:5343:12

asked 11:1 33:237:15 58:11 59:860:25 62:6 63:1166:4 74:13 76:1378:9,12,17,20 80:180:12 86:9 87:2488:21 89:20 90:2393:14 94:2 98:2499:23 103:22

108:23 109:17110:5,23 111:16117:5 118:2 119:1120:4 123:12125:24 126:15128:6 129:10,14130:22 142:9143:25 147:13152:5 154:17,21155:19,19 161:8162:12 166:22167:22 172:25177:11 178:2,6,22178:24 185:1 196:4196:16,17 199:4203:18 204:13207:14 208:8,17,18209:19,19 210:6217:4 218:16,23220:20 224:4 227:9227:24 230:12,24234:13,25 239:25249:12,15 252:15253:23 256:11258:5 259:24 261:9262:4 263:14264:24 266:20267:2,6 268:5269:13 270:13,15274:24 285:6286:23 299:12301:13 312:12317:2 318:17333:13 334:13337:14,24 338:15340:1,4 341:25

asking 31:17 60:689:3 145:11 146:9162:10 165:15,16175:7 179:1 207:19218:17 234:18235:19 244:1 247:6277:17,20 282:22329:6,24 334:20345:8

[arising - asking] Page 5


assistant 46:5,14assistants 46:3associate 140:21

143:18 297:3associated 122:19

243:4 289:22 298:3association 33:11

311:23associations 312:4assume 79:23

151:17 163:8,10164:11,14 165:17166:8 239:11 294:4

assumes 28:1658:10 62:5 81:1883:6 89:3 92:2297:3 111:24 117:14118:1 121:13124:16 129:22133:19 140:17141:4 195:20 196:3215:21 217:3220:12 223:18225:5 230:23 237:1239:6 244:22 245:1247:14 256:10264:23 265:15271:21 296:6

assuming 71:790:21 112:10,11120:2 141:21158:21 166:8

ate 118:16attached 222:3

234:11,17 242:19273:5,12,13

attachment 242:22273:11,15

attempt 120:15121:5 141:10185:20

attempted 35:5282:3

attempting 188:17258:17

attempts 244:24attend 55:7,11,16attended 34:2 55:12

315:1 318:7attention 90:15attorney 8:20 9:24

15:11 16:6 65:266:25 67:21,2368:16 74:2,12 299:7

attorneys 8:1515:10 298:17

authoring 222:14authorities 37:7authority 40:5,14

47:16 312:20348:17

automatically 47:2047:25 48:2,3

available 104:16,18107:11,12 119:3,5122:22 231:2284:24

avenue 5:7 6:22average 241:1

296:21 297:11avoid 240:9avoided 238:12avoiding 237:8

238:1,11,15 239:22239:23 240:8286:13 325:25

award 315:8,25316:2

awards 314:13,15317:12 347:20

aware 17:4,14195:16 196:24224:11 227:20228:1 231:4 245:10294:22

b

b 3:11 4:1 5:14 9:14235:11 293:16294:5 297:5

bachelor 17:23303:6,10,12

back 17:6 44:1362:17 71:19,2176:15 79:7,8 84:1784:24 87:3 89:1195:2 97:10,17 111:4112:21 116:17,19117:1,10,12,18119:17 131:14136:4 138:14139:16 140:6147:25 148:4160:17 173:4 174:6181:7 184:18 185:6190:2 193:23197:25 214:11215:5 216:16 220:4220:10 221:2228:21 230:8,17239:3,15 241:12243:11,12 248:20249:3 252:19253:21 254:4,12263:25 264:6 265:7265:7,13,25 266:13267:16 269:6270:25 271:16275:12 277:3,9,18285:19 299:2302:10 303:15307:18 334:11

background 69:7291:23 301:18302:2,2

backing 235:16bad 20:9,10badgering 164:25ballpark 309:17balls 19:10bandwagon 226:19bankrupt 42:7,10bar 291:25barbara 1:10 10:9

based 111:20 146:6162:2 177:25197:23 211:21218:3 219:5 230:13267:15 280:17329:16

basic 18:7 26:1431:2 53:16 301:13

basically 31:22,2533:19 51:13 54:17295:20 314:1

basis 25:10 178:4194:5

batteries 24:22 25:735:18

battery 301:14bayercrop 7:4bears 317:13beating 262:6bechtel 7:4becoming 164:23bed 226:20began 231:13beginning 49:21,22

62:16 117:2 131:13157:18 184:14190:1 248:19264:19 299:1

behalf 8:2,17 157:19beings 121:7belabor 310:19

330:11belief 15:21 97:25

130:18,21,24231:15 265:24280:11,12 321:2323:11,21 327:14327:16 344:15

believe 15:8,11,1315:19 16:7 17:1922:3,20 26:21,2231:1 32:6,6,22 48:948:10 51:19 52:356:2 57:8 70:1972:19 74:1,3 77:2

[assistant - believe] Page 6


78:19 79:20 80:281:25 82:25 83:884:5,15,24 85:1986:2 92:13 93:694:10 95:19 105:17106:3,4 109:1,2,18110:6 116:11118:24 119:21135:25 136:23,23138:14 139:14140:25 144:10146:5 155:22157:23 158:9 161:3167:20 168:7,8176:9 177:4,13,13177:14 179:4,6182:15 185:5,10188:10 194:23196:7 197:7,23,24198:8 199:7,9,13206:16 208:14211:16 220:3,9,15226:22,25 227:3228:15 229:14237:24 245:17246:16 250:2256:25 258:7 259:3260:4,11,14,21261:2,18 263:5268:8,12 271:5275:8 279:4 281:3282:6,8,16 294:1312:15 321:7,15322:15 325:8326:15 330:6331:10 334:25335:2 339:6 344:24345:5

believed 258:1339:12 345:20

bell 236:9belongs 221:2ben 180:1 322:13,18bertles 7:10 8:2

best 11:25 193:4242:20 246:4 283:4287:15

better 11:10 175:16196:16 227:12276:3 318:14340:14

betzler 21:17beyond 31:5 162:12

184:4 229:15282:24

big 25:17 278:25298:13 308:13

bigger 36:2bill 204:15 288:17

289:15 290:1,2,3338:16,17

bit 26:22 75:1487:13 148:1 167:15304:22

blackburn 1:18 5:125:16,20,24 6:24 7:47:8 8:12 10:11133:7 329:1

blank 243:7blankets 200:23

202:6,8,10 307:6331:13 336:20345:14

blessing 314:24blocks 235:11 236:2blvd 6:9board 180:1 275:21

316:21bob 287:19boca 134:25 135:2,6

135:7 136:2 144:24146:5,20,22

body 192:7 195:24195:25

boeing 314:5boggs 6:1boiler 119:18,20

122:14

bomb 34:18 37:4,6,6book 33:10 316:25books 33:10 210:9born 281:14bosick 5:17boss 21:15 25:20

232:25 233:11bottom 169:11,17

181:2 222:19232:21 285:10303:23 307:19

bought 54:4,12161:21 273:20

boulevard 7:6 8:7bounds 291:7,8box 164:4,4 165:25brag 341:11brand 305:21break 63:6 112:7

132:3 148:1 189:19232:2 298:19

breakfast 68:18breaks 131:23 132:4breathe 122:20,21brett 232:13 233:11

233:18briefly 301:16briefs 104:22bring 306:11broad 142:5,11

148:3 175:17,24302:17

broadcasts 303:1broke 119:7brought 80:19

164:20 268:18bruce 336:2brunswick 6:14brush 336:19bryers 5:10bs 303:9buck 307:13,17

342:25 343:5346:22

build 306:12building 42:24

67:17,18 122:14270:16

built 45:14bureaucracy 305:24burn 153:11,14burns 150:5bus 312:22business 18:4 85:15

226:20 249:22,23283:14 290:17297:1 326:1 338:19

butt 280:25buy 327:11

c

c 5:1 180:23 181:1192:11 193:17232:15 235:13242:4 273:5 274:5288:18 289:14313:20

cabinets 55:2cairns 192:11,19,22calcium 137:12call 24:4 34:22

42:19 44:8 73:11,1873:23 74:9 75:777:4 78:11 132:24133:2 181:16201:22 231:16270:3,7 289:23328:14 340:24341:1 342:12

called 2:2 9:1 40:2354:13 76:2 77:7,1878:17 79:1,2 87:16105:3 143:5 169:23173:2 174:14 177:7215:7 240:15 241:9293:1 295:4 312:7

calling 156:14 270:4calls 14:14 15:17

17:17 19:16 43:9

[believe - calls] Page 7


49:5 61:13 76:1877:2 78:25 93:12126:19 153:23163:25 164:9 182:9184:25 189:9 217:3219:19 228:10229:6 237:1 241:6246:11 265:16267:19 270:18271:22 281:20296:6 326:3

canada 45:13,15,17307:11 308:16

canadian 311:24312:9 317:19

cancer 139:15140:13,19 141:11141:14 142:2 144:4146:21 191:17216:18 217:6,10,16217:22 218:15,22219:11,22 226:22228:5,7,16 229:11229:18 230:3,15231:3,18 241:2259:5 261:16 269:8271:2,19 277:6,19277:20,23 282:10282:11

cancerous 140:22cannata 2:6 350:6

350:22cannes 315:24 316:2capable 82:6capacity 268:2capital 295:8caps 193:15caption 8:8captioned 2:3car 66:12carbon 181:6,8

187:23 232:21cardboard 235:13

295:21 296:16

care 211:5 296:24career 31:15 33:24

53:1 55:13 59:16105:11 122:4309:15 310:23318:3

careful 214:3carl 234:16carolyn 5:21carpenter 6:8case 1:19 8:8 9:6,9

10:6,8,10,20 61:675:1 129:13 183:21193:7 316:12344:13

cases 8:21 10:3,5328:24 329:8335:10,13

castaloy 180:25182:22

catalog 3:16,1979:10,15,18,22 80:980:18 81:3,15,23,2382:1 83:9 84:14,1884:22 85:17 86:6,1787:6,15 88:23 89:1090:12,18 106:15107:21 108:20110:20 111:9112:16 127:11,16128:2 129:17141:19 146:11148:12,25 149:1,9149:19,22,24 151:6151:10 153:1,20154:7,7 155:23161:24 167:23168:12,20 169:2,8169:19 170:13173:11 174:11177:6 178:15179:17,21,24 193:2193:11 201:22202:3,11 213:4,4,23213:25 215:19

216:6 242:15 256:8257:6 258:18 260:5261:21 263:8264:16 273:4294:19 295:1326:24 327:1,4,13333:18 346:20

catalogs 55:22 56:482:2,12,23 83:4,2584:8 85:5 87:1488:5 90:1,9 105:24108:3,9 109:13,24121:8 124:14141:22 150:24154:10 161:2 193:5202:9,18 236:13246:23 248:5

categories 235:10235:10,24 236:1302:17 309:12

category 142:5288:11 303:3

cause 109:3,9110:10 124:4 130:7146:14 191:16196:8 201:1 205:23207:22 212:6216:18 217:6,10,16217:22 218:15,21219:11,22 227:21229:11 230:14231:3,9 259:4,5261:16 269:7 271:2277:19,20 339:7345:5

caused 196:8 229:18230:3 261:15

causes 140:8 141:11146:21 226:23

causing 271:19277:6

caustics 150:5caution 197:17cautions 83:24 84:7

84:13

cbs 5:16cc 181:3,5cc'd 69:19 184:18,23

185:6cedrone 5:21ceiling 122:14cenname 232:13,14

233:1,7,9 234:18237:11 238:5

cenname's 232:25center 215:11

242:12 245:23325:18 326:7

centers 197:5242:16,18 245:11246:22 247:2 248:4249:18 289:4,5319:6 321:4 323:14323:23 325:1332:19 333:19,24

central 180:21212:19 221:10,13242:7 278:12287:17

centre 5:18 6:18century 117:2ceramic 242:18

289:5certain 12:25 48:4

107:9 122:10 123:7124:2 200:22201:20 231:3237:17 262:20328:6 344:23

certainly 34:23129:10,10 169:8224:7 253:17329:20 335:19

certificate 314:20347:20

certificates 314:12347:19

certification 46:2447:2,3 48:5,8 49:3129:9

[calls - certification] Page 8


certifications 34:2134:23

certified 34:25 35:235:7 37:22,25 38:339:5,11 46:19,2247:10,14 48:21,2349:1,9

certify 47:5 350:8350:13

cetera 200:24205:20,21 295:19296:4

cfd 295:8,9,14,15cfr 336:9chad 6:8chairman 180:1chance 131:19

157:14 194:25change 49:17 50:6,9

50:22 51:7 62:8248:11

changed 50:2 51:11changing 288:21characterization

247:3charge 35:13 40:4

45:20,21 47:5 50:184:22 85:4 93:3112:24 113:2,3,7,11154:19 179:21,23182:15 185:13192:23 204:7 233:2233:10 279:5 306:4312:20

charged 44:21charles 191:5 252:6

253:2 272:11334:12

chasing 268:7chaudri 6:13check 301:18chemical 24:21 28:6

52:6 103:10 114:3,8142:7,11 191:18,22217:14,25 227:17

311:24 312:9chemicals 25:8

53:21 138:21 142:3142:5 143:6 297:9

chemist 136:6142:10

chemistry 18:7 31:231:9

cherin 5:13chevron 6:11chewed 208:22chicago 5:7 8:24

53:21 192:24 194:7242:11 243:4347:16

chided 238:5,10children 198:2,7,15

205:4,11,16 215:6215:12,17 216:13217:1,12,15 218:12218:14,17 219:1,17219:21 220:9223:13,15,19238:23 239:3,15,19244:3,20,25 245:5245:12 248:1 249:4249:14,16 250:3,15250:17 252:17254:4 265:12,17266:22 267:4,10,16268:3,9,14 271:1,17274:19 276:5299:23,24

choice 132:25chromel 289:14circumstance

118:21circumstances

130:20city 63:1civil 2:5claim 133:11clamor 226:16clamps 294:3,10,12

294:20 295:19

296:4clara 318:16clarification 90:24

158:6 200:16 331:7331:15

clarify 63:4 123:18123:21 128:24249:1 304:21329:25

clarifying 124:9class 31:9 55:10

268:19classes 22:18,24

30:4,7 31:12,1633:24 55:12,17

classroom 31:2332:3 33:20 34:255:8 245:20,24246:20

cleaning 336:18clear 15:24 112:19

283:18 290:15320:23 322:11323:9 325:15328:24 343:16

clearance 301:11,19301:20,23 302:11302:13

clearing 79:7clearly 138:7cleveland 284:21client 23:8,10,12

24:5,5,7clients 20:8,17,22

21:20 22:15 41:4304:4

cloth 235:15 262:8,9262:11 274:16,17

coach 176:22coast 314:6coated 174:3 235:11

235:13code 291:25coffee 280:23,23

281:7

cohen 5:2 8:22 9:24coke 24:22 25:7

35:18collaboration

210:22collected 54:5college 18:25 19:1,2

311:7collided 90:6colon 280:1come 57:25 80:4,7

107:1,4 125:25139:19 147:19149:24 160:19201:4 209:11 220:2233:4 256:6 318:17341:25

comes 297:2 341:10coming 55:10 74:5

74:24 107:9 171:13commencing 2:9commented 290:14comments 83:17

200:20 221:25337:6

commerce 5:3commission 213:21committee 40:25

41:6common 1:16communicated

188:4communicating

210:19communication

94:21 232:11284:15

communications75:4

community 109:8311:7

companies 19:13,2019:25 20:17 25:541:4 50:2 55:23104:15,21 107:19

[certifications - companies] Page 9


107:20 108:2161:22 310:8 312:5

company 5:24 6:315:15,20 16:1 17:1519:4,6,10 24:15,1825:4,10,17,23 26:1926:21,24 27:1128:11,13 29:2,7,2531:8,11 32:14 33:2234:3,6,8 38:3,640:20 43:14 51:2252:1 54:12 58:264:14 73:19 79:13127:3 148:25154:21 156:18169:2 171:6 180:22182:19 187:12190:18 193:2 200:3212:20 213:2221:11 232:12242:3 249:22272:11 274:11278:13 284:15287:18 304:8308:21 309:13322:12,16,17339:21 348:2

compared 162:15competition 213:19competitors 182:24

183:11,15compile 234:19

235:20compiled 33:6

236:23compiling 85:5complete 106:18

114:23 123:14149:22 243:7350:15

completed 17:22234:17 301:15

completely 162:7completing 34:24

complexity 23:1226:13 36:1

compliance 27:679:14 188:20213:25 224:15225:1,10,21 304:23305:7,10,25 306:12308:11,18 309:9310:4,9 311:12312:8 313:13314:25 337:11341:11,13,21 342:1

complicated 75:12comply 188:17

224:8 306:24327:10,11,23,24328:7 336:14337:14

component 22:931:24 32:4

components 186:7186:14

compound 37:1453:10 71:2 147:25262:2

concentrated 50:18concern 219:23

318:23concerned 58:14,15

190:18 191:12,16195:5 198:4 216:17246:17 249:4 266:5266:7 268:14,24

concerning 72:1774:16 75:1 94:13125:3 159:15200:20 222:4234:12 240:8,13282:18 336:8

concerns 79:17124:21 126:10167:25 168:5183:18 204:15269:8 326:8

conclude 230:13293:23

concluded 349:10conclusion 14:14

43:9 60:9 118:19120:14 121:10,13145:11 229:16,16259:21

concrete 61:20condition 25:12conditions 28:12conduct 108:7conducted 27:14

91:14conducting 222:7

226:3 251:8confer 114:19 211:2conference 11:14conferred 212:4confidential 278:14

291:22confined 235:8confirm 96:2conflict 16:25confronted 174:17confuse 94:3 300:20confused 11:8 26:23

66:16 75:18,21,2299:17 144:18263:15

confusing 64:2275:14

confusion 15:14320:25

congratulations299:21 340:22347:22

conjecture 223:4connect 244:24connected 78:3connection 28:25

215:15,22,25 239:9246:17 247:7,25249:13,15 250:2,14250:16,17 332:21

consider 18:8 142:6238:14 342:5,8

considered 47:1855:4 305:9 341:12

constantly 31:15,1657:13 58:4 114:20

constitutes 350:14construction 119:17

122:13consultant 40:18

41:18 42:2 44:1552:23

consultation 59:3consulted 58:20consulting 37:1

40:22 42:22 43:1143:22 44:15 57:14108:16,17 128:11128:15,17 129:3,5

consumers 55:2381:16,24 82:13,2483:4 86:7,17 105:24106:16,24 107:5108:14,21 109:14110:1 111:12127:18 153:1 177:9

cont 4:1contact 37:10 72:17

73:1 76:7,11 85:385:16 93:4,18 94:694:8 194:4 216:11

contacted 72:2373:7 93:21 187:25188:3 317:2

contacting 93:8contain 19:13

130:13,14 222:10226:12 234:19249:25 262:9,12279:16 295:5

contained 63:9,1986:23 87:9,19 88:688:8 90:2 95:23,24106:5,15 112:18130:7 151:5,9,17

[companies - contained] Page 10


161:11 187:3,19189:1 202:11 224:7226:6 236:20 246:2251:11 296:2339:12

containing 61:1087:5,16 88:23105:23 108:8,19109:23 110:17111:8,17 119:24124:2 127:10129:16 147:10150:24 162:4183:20 185:15188:12 189:5 197:1202:8,18 209:8210:2 230:2 236:24245:19 246:19281:5 294:10,19318:24 319:3 320:5320:16 321:2 322:1323:3,12,22 324:24325:17 326:6,14332:17,25 338:24

contains 137:11contaminants

346:25contamination

150:6contempra 295:10content 75:4 94:20context 142:1 227:4

230:23continue 36:24

41:15 289:16311:16 338:17,25

continued 16:2continuing 222:8

226:4 251:9 300:5,9329:18 335:14,20

continuous 329:14continuously 240:4contracting 231:17contradict 185:20

contrast 169:24170:9 171:15 172:2173:1

contributed 317:22contributions

316:19conventions 308:9

308:10,23,25conversation 12:8

81:12 221:24conversations 14:17

14:19 213:16254:13,24 255:21

conversely 12:13cooperation 201:5

331:15copied 232:21copies 181:8 190:16copy 168:22,23

169:1 181:6 187:23190:10 200:1212:17 255:7 272:9284:8 285:14 286:1

core 18:12corner 190:25 253:2corp 6:24corporate 16:2

38:17 49:17 57:280:6,8 100:10 104:8105:21 116:12152:23 154:20156:17 194:4 201:6207:4 213:2 227:2229:13 234:5 242:6252:10 260:11,14261:19 263:5272:14 306:13331:17 343:8

corporation 1:206:11,11 7:8 8:1245:22 46:8

correct 31:21,2435:10 41:21 46:1,249:12 61:6 71:2073:9,10 75:25 76:3

76:8 77:25 78:182:3,8,9 85:20 91:493:22 99:21 101:18104:9 108:15111:22 123:9128:20,23 135:2,4135:16 136:16137:2,3,12,16,19139:1 143:12,14144:25 145:5,8150:10 155:1156:10,11,18,19,24157:8,9,21 169:3,4172:15 173:5,6,9,10174:4,5 182:5,11183:1 189:14 192:8193:11 194:9198:19 203:2 204:4204:5,9,19,20207:11 212:7,20,21213:6,7,10 218:12218:19 236:14,15237:22 241:18242:6 243:20 246:5247:11,19 253:12256:1,2,22 257:23257:24 258:2 264:7264:11 266:22267:7,17 268:3,25269:9 276:20 286:1286:2 288:14 289:5292:12,13,17 293:2293:5 295:5 296:13297:8 305:14 335:1340:25 341:4,8,13342:6,7,10,11 343:1343:3,6 344:5345:23 346:5,17,22347:5

corrected 135:13correctly 123:5

137:23 139:11150:18 158:13160:10 170:4184:11 191:24

201:8 203:25210:24 214:7222:11 242:23255:15 273:8279:24 285:3293:21 294:7295:23 296:12297:15 331:19

corresponded 36:1136:13

correspondence63:17 69:20 85:1095:16 159:9 201:14222:3 226:16234:12 258:1 276:7276:23 281:20326:2 331:25

corresponding342:10

cots 174:3 200:23201:22 288:11331:12 345:14

council 27:15 28:434:19 41:19 42:4104:23,24 314:20315:3 316:22347:12,22,24 348:3348:12,15

counsel 6:15 54:973:4 75:11 142:25144:8 147:16149:18 153:5,7156:5 162:6 164:23165:5 168:23176:21 178:21180:13 183:3196:22 200:1208:24 232:10264:5 266:8 269:12269:15,16 284:9326:23 328:16,25333:14 335:1,12337:23 340:2347:14

[contained - counsel] Page 11


counsel's 334:13counselor 206:8

265:15 267:20count 100:14counting 102:10,14

102:18 169:20counts 100:8,12county 1:1,9,16

34:17 40:6 311:7312:21 350:3,7

couple 10:7,23 12:625:24 66:10 72:1187:14 142:23,24233:22 272:22279:7 303:19305:15 314:16315:6 332:11340:12

course 27:2 31:3,731:15 35:6 105:10105:13,18 141:23194:1,3 300:10309:20 311:5,6313:20 314:8,22318:3 347:21

courses 27:13 30:1630:20,23 34:24 48:4105:11 311:2,8,9

court 1:1,8,16 2:68:3,16 10:16 12:5134:5 343:21

cover 149:19 169:1covered 108:12

162:5 236:6 259:13259:16 260:7,8,15262:21

covering 122:13coverings 119:22crack 208:3create 12:17 13:3

131:1creating 13:2creation 198:3credible 109:5 122:6

127:2 130:5 168:13

230:4 261:13cremonese 284:16

284:18,19,20 285:8criminal 302:2criscuolo 6:1crossed 192:11,13

193:13crr 350:23crum 19:24 20:4,18

21:21 22:17 23:8,1823:18 24:6,13 31:20303:25

csp 35:1 47:8,18,2148:1,3 49:14

cubic 139:7cup 280:22,23curious 191:13current 15:1,3,15

221:25 293:1,4currently 17:7

222:7curriculum 340:23customer 58:16

59:10 60:18,22 61:2126:24 184:3186:24 294:2 307:7307:9,16 324:2,9346:4

customers 44:8 60:580:10 106:6 113:5124:21 126:20141:16,18,19142:15 160:3178:19 187:13238:13,16 239:21240:3,6 260:25261:7,13 264:20306:16,21 321:25

cut 119:6 208:22285:16 337:10

cutting 144:13189:2 209:6 336:16

cv 307:18 311:16

d

d 3:1 6:1,8 180:24181:10 193:17234:16 235:14273:5 274:5

damn 236:15danger 113:20,24

259:11,13 262:22262:22 307:14323:2

dangerous 118:20146:13,14 191:20217:20,23 259:18259:19 321:5,13,16322:2 324:10326:16 327:15

dangers 112:25114:7,7,11 116:15139:19 231:17274:20

daniels 278:16,20278:22

date 8:3 72:9 78:11148:10 168:18180:11 212:11215:4 232:12 244:5244:16 247:12257:9 292:5,14,17292:20,21 294:23330:5,15,19 331:23338:6

dated 134:10 156:16191:1 195:12 200:3205:5 212:23221:13 223:13232:5 241:20242:12 250:24251:23 252:5 272:9278:6 284:16 287:8287:20 330:1,15332:14 333:12336:2 338:4 344:3

dates 26:23 33:2543:25 50:16 52:25

116:21 158:3 174:9david 6:5,17 156:23

156:25 157:8 264:8329:24

day 23:13 25:10,1064:16,20,24 65:1765:24 66:3,7,13,19177:14 190:8 205:7299:9 317:11348:25 349:2

days 36:3 38:24205:7 238:25 244:2244:15

dead 262:6deal 29:16 194:7dealing 114:22dealings 194:2dealt 30:17,20,23

32:12 115:17 277:3dear 158:4 191:11

213:8,15 219:21221:23 242:13254:21 273:1333:17 336:6

death 305:23decade 92:11deceased 10:11december 157:20

158:5,19 159:9232:12 239:1,2,7,14242:12 244:19,25245:8 247:17 248:2252:6 257:3 271:19272:10 275:6,7,12276:12,23 328:18330:1 331:1,22333:13 334:11343:13 344:5,8,14

decide 126:4 264:14decided 24:10 49:10

49:13 77:14 126:13242:14 247:18333:17

deciphered 302:25

[counsel's - deciphered] Page 12


decision 23:18 74:983:23 246:20 247:3248:3 249:17 250:3250:13 325:9,13,16326:5,13 333:23

decisions 289:20defective 9:8,9defendant 5:8,11,15

5:19,23 6:3,6,19,237:7 10:4 300:19328:15 341:17

defendant's 330:21334:25

defendants 1:6,141:21 6:10 7:3 10:4

defense 298:17343:14,17,25 344:1344:7

define 276:3defined 120:3definite 175:11deft 4:16,17,18

300:21 328:10335:5

degree 17:23 47:19303:6,8,9,11

del 134:25 135:2,6,7136:2 144:24 146:5146:20,21

delay 254:22 336:10deliberately 339:23delivered 73:8

132:15delta 343:25deluge 26:15demolition 119:17

122:12,13demotion 51:2dense 148:17dep 269:17department 26:5,6

34:18 36:14 37:352:18,21 56:23 57:377:18 79:2 84:21104:3,8,8 156:6

158:20 184:1,13224:13 290:4306:25 307:1314:17 335:4 336:2

depend 23:11depended 26:12

28:5depending 35:25

37:4depends 42:23

301:17deposition 1:23 2:2

2:4 8:5 9:13 10:1212:8 13:19 14:162:12,16 63:2265:19 67:4,21 68:2172:7,8 74:17,21131:8,13 132:18133:5,6 134:4158:22 169:7189:21 190:1248:19 292:15299:1 301:7 349:5,9

describe 303:4304:2 306:18307:25

described 87:1588:23 203:5 235:24303:18 304:12318:22 350:14

description 3:13 4:3151:9 152:11 173:7

descriptions 88:9deserve 77:18

220:17,18designations 147:20desire 327:12desk 55:2 141:2

346:22despite 328:24detail 303:18 305:12deteriorate 208:3,15deterioration

209:12

determine 111:10127:8 222:7 226:3251:9 259:17307:14

determined 160:8262:23 264:11346:16

deutsch 6:8developing 184:7

187:17development 241:1dewit 6:13die 177:14different 10:3 11:10

27:25 42:22 50:23309:3 318:13328:24 342:3

differentiated 203:9differentiating 99:9diligence 261:12dinsmore 6:17diplomas 34:23

314:12 347:20direct 39:9,21

164:24 165:20169:9 319:2 326:23328:16

directing 234:10directives 183:18directly 265:11,18

307:12director 38:17 49:18

80:5,6,8 100:10105:21 116:13152:23 156:18181:21 194:4 199:8201:7 207:4 227:2229:13 234:5252:10 260:12,15261:19 263:6272:14 305:2,13306:1 331:18 343:9

directors 316:21disapproving

319:21

disciplines 40:5discloses 183:17discontinuance

222:17 338:16discontinue 226:10

279:15 289:15323:7 325:9,13,16326:5,14 332:16

discontinued 325:1325:7

discontinuing 222:8226:4 238:14251:10 290:3332:25 338:23

discover 225:19discuss 65:18,20,23

67:21 68:13 72:2282:21 85:22 87:295:9 142:16

discussed 69:20,2170:1 82:15 95:13275:21 276:6289:12

discussing 83:2210:15

discussion 67:274:23 196:13 287:2326:22

discussions 318:20disipio 5:21dispensed 163:5dispensing 160:6disrespected 284:2dissection 54:6distribute 236:1

256:7 275:8distributed 128:12

229:10,17 237:16261:21 263:8264:15 275:23294:25

distribution 222:9226:5 251:11

distributor 222:2251:4 256:4

[decision - distributor] Page 13


district 192:5332:10 334:1

division 1:1,9 24:2525:1 35:20 53:22192:24,25 193:2194:13 213:6215:13 242:2295:10 304:9

divisions 25:16docket 1:12doctor 47:16,25

48:1,4 52:13,2258:3 60:13,24146:22

doctors 57:10,1458:20,22,23 59:2,660:16 61:1 122:8141:14,15,24142:14 318:12,20

document 3:15 4:1369:11 74:8 83:16,1895:19 103:14 129:9133:21,24 134:9136:15,18,25 137:1137:4,14,22 146:6146:11 150:21152:16 156:6158:14 159:21162:13 168:3,17169:6 170:5 172:18173:16 179:10180:10,12,20 187:6187:7 190:8,9,20191:11 194:21199:21 204:6,12,14223:1 225:25231:24 233:21234:1,10 258:21271:20 278:12284:6,8 285:23287:9 289:2 291:16300:25 314:2328:23 329:7,15,19329:22 333:12334:14,23 335:9,15

335:24 336:3338:10 341:17344:18 345:3 346:6

documentation129:18

documents 63:21,2367:7,25 68:24 69:169:4,15,18 70:5,870:12,17,20,2571:22 72:1,4 83:194:12 95:9 101:25102:9,21 103:2,25104:15 141:3145:18 191:25194:24 214:18225:19 240:11,14343:19

doing 24:3 35:2443:21,24 44:3,13,14132:2 180:3 191:14191:23 219:7,16231:11 234:24245:7 248:1 269:21270:21 312:25314:5

dollar 296:19dollars 297:3,3door 11:14 73:9

74:5,20,24 75:8,2576:11 132:15235:14 236:3

doorbell 72:10,17double 148:16doubt 90:2 170:12

170:23 171:3,13185:23 186:2,3236:22

doubting 87:18douglas 287:20doukas 6:13draft 152:15drill 337:10drilled 119:6drilling 189:2

336:16

drive 64:22drop 242:14 247:19

248:3 250:3,18279:19 281:1333:18,23

dropped 297:13dropping 249:10,21due 178:18 261:11

283:5,23dues 348:14duly 9:1dumped 49:25dunst 6:13duplicative 299:11duquesne 17:24

30:3,18,21,24 31:2303:7 310:12

duration 122:21duro 5:12dust 21:4 30:13,13

30:17,21,24 34:11100:8,12,13,18,21101:16 102:10,14102:17,24 103:1139:6,8 189:6 208:4208:16 209:10210:1,5,10

dusting 178:17201:2 205:24 206:4206:6 207:22,23208:25 209:4 212:6

dusts 30:8 34:8duties 37:17 38:23

42:20,21 182:17186:4,5 194:3302:21 305:12,16

duty 93:3dyne 5:12

e

e 3:1,11 4:1 5:1,1156:23 180:23,24191:6 193:17221:12 232:15,15235:15 252:7 264:8

285:13 289:14eagle 315:7,25earlier 41:21 83:8

188:11 203:5,8,21203:25 214:13226:9 290:14314:23 318:2326:22 330:22

early 12:1 117:1earth 198:17east 317:14,19eastern 317:19,20easy 195:9 220:3eat 131:20eckert 5:13edie 15:5 16:5 66:24

66:25 67:2educate 117:22

125:6educated 113:4educating 112:24

113:2,3education 17:22

27:12 30:3 55:3,17113:8,12 124:12143:17 303:3,4

educational 53:2255:12 192:23 194:9194:10 197:5 213:5215:12 242:2294:15

effect 321:9 326:24effectively 214:2

289:21efficient 184:21eight 148:15 183:16either 10:4 15:9

19:13 69:18 135:25143:19 147:21240:4 242:7 276:6292:5 306:15334:17

electric 5:20 6:7eliminate 288:22

306:9

[district - eliminate] Page 14


else's 144:19 275:3emd 53:21 194:7,8

213:3,4 215:19242:11 243:4,12

emphasis 268:13emphysema 139:9employ 52:12 57:10

60:3,16,21 229:3employed 18:16

43:6 57:6 59:1962:1 70:9 311:13

employee 15:416:19 17:7,10 52:1453:2 57:11,16,24,2558:6,22 59:4 64:25113:13 119:18136:24 144:25145:12

employees 14:2415:1 25:15 43:158:8,15,16,21,2559:5 64:5 100:22113:7 115:13 145:8160:5 163:6,15,19164:20 166:3 318:9

employer 27:25employers 29:19

35:9employment 18:11

18:12 19:22,2329:15 60:9 84:25231:12 303:19

enclosed 255:7ended 55:13enemy 303:1energy 6:11engineer 20:5 21:15

24:25 25:22 304:2,9engineering 22:25engineers 26:4

48:11 316:15ensure 105:22 106:9

106:14,23 224:22224:24 225:9,21

entail 20:6enter 12:25 319:22

324:19entered 315:23entering 13:4entire 45:21 55:25

56:23 57:3 81:2282:1 92:11 104:17109:7 112:23 195:1272:25 328:1

entirely 65:12entities 43:2 51:8

309:24entitled 169:20

232:10 297:5350:12

entry 154:7,7 301:9304:7 307:20,24308:20 309:22311:1,17 313:22316:23 317:10

epoxy 183:6,16,22epoxyn 285:12equally 164:18equipment 21:10

172:15,23 246:19equivalent 281:6erie 350:3,8erroneous 174:24esq 5:3,6,10,14,18

5:21 6:1,5,8,13,176:22 7:1,6

essentially 310:10establish 234:14established 235:6et 1:6,13,20 8:10,11

8:13 200:24 205:20205:21 295:19296:4

ethical 322:15,15339:21,22

evacuation 42:24events 340:4eventually 97:19

179:17 307:7

everybody 113:3,12122:7 342:13,18

everybody's 226:19evidence 109:6

110:7 122:6,23124:16 127:2129:22 130:6,15168:10,14 223:6225:19 230:4,5,23247:14 261:14271:22 321:8

evolved 58:15exact 33:25 178:21

208:18 274:4exactly 12:3,3 45:5

77:22 78:9 95:12204:12 246:9286:20

examination 1:242:3 3:5,6,7 9:18299:5 340:20

example 56:14,1559:12 208:2 310:14312:14 318:15

exceeded 189:6excerpt 149:21excerpts 149:18excuse 30:2 60:2

91:13 99:16 100:8127:14 175:1 180:7199:8 202:24224:23 304:3310:17

executive 38:19,2139:1

exempt 158:9331:13 344:24345:20 346:1

exhaustive 301:18exhibit 134:12 148:9

159:18 212:11223:20 250:22,23263:24 264:1 266:4270:13 291:14292:9,20 300:19

328:9,14,15,17330:14,21 332:9333:2,9,11,25334:10,25 337:20337:23,25 338:1341:18 344:7

exhibits 330:12332:6,7

exist 92:2,11existed 33:4 307:14existing 28:20,21,23

224:1,16 225:2,10225:22 338:25339:10

expected 336:13experience 22:21

43:20 47:12,2348:25 52:6 162:2267:15 280:17303:16,24 304:12304:14 305:4,7341:3

experiments 191:15248:1

expert 61:25 62:1,2110:8 121:17,18122:2,23 124:1146:23 193:16195:23 196:1208:21 220:22228:10,15 229:2,9231:13,16 241:5262:15 265:2271:22 282:23305:9 313:3,13341:12 342:6,9,13342:14,15,18,19,22343:10

expertise 229:15305:3,6

experts 171:5,9229:3 231:1,2 241:9241:12

explain 91:17301:12 308:22

[else's - explain] Page 15


309:25 313:22314:21

explained 196:14explaining 254:24exposed 123:8

133:11,12exposition 308:21

309:14exposure 117:23,25

139:8 143:19227:21 230:10,14231:18 240:23241:1 281:3

exposures 336:13express 78:22 154:9extensive 336:19extent 13:23 60:8

75:10 160:7 166:14167:2,7,12 193:7197:18 229:1264:10 266:6346:15

extinguisher 56:9307:3,5

extinguishers 26:1456:14,18 307:3

exxon 6:11eyewash 26:15

f

f 1:5 6:9 157:1221:12 235:16237:7

facilities 102:25183:20 223:9

facility 103:19 297:7298:3

fact 47:9 51:7 74:6108:12 167:21191:16 213:20215:10,16,18216:17 219:6 230:5233:17 272:17314:4 316:12

factors 122:19facts 28:16 50:13

58:10 62:5 81:1883:6 89:3 90:2192:23 97:4 111:24117:14 118:1 120:2121:13 124:16129:22 133:19140:17 141:5195:20 196:4215:21 217:3220:12 223:18225:5 230:23 237:1239:6 244:23 245:1247:14 256:10264:23 265:15271:21 296:6

factual 177:24 178:4208:6 209:17282:21 335:18

failed 98:4fair 52:7 53:20

67:20 85:19 103:10103:19 113:19114:6,11,13 126:11126:12 133:4 136:8136:13,15 145:4,7145:20,22 146:6,7152:2 153:1,19187:2 200:15 212:3221:1 236:10243:10 256:19286:18 291:12297:6,7,17 298:4

fairly 199:13 303:18falls 235:9fame 315:12familiar 136:3 175:3

233:24 257:18294:9

family 142:12322:14

far 35:16 101:14116:17,19 117:18189:13 190:15

230:8farm 54:4fatality 312:23father 198:1fault 172:9feasibility 222:8

226:4 251:9features 21:9february 18:21

38:11 44:23,25federal 2:4 213:20fee 9:10 44:12,14,16

44:20,21feel 13:2 76:17

317:21 321:23328:5

feldner 1:10,10 6:76:16,20 8:10 9:610:9 133:8 328:25

felt 154:13 186:2216:6

festival 315:24fiber 175:4 178:13

257:13fibers 111:10 119:12

119:13 120:18122:10,16 123:9124:3 129:19130:15,17,19 160:8166:15 167:3,8,13177:2,15,19,20,21177:22 178:8,8,17179:5 188:21200:20 201:1,19205:23 208:4,12210:10 228:2 231:3231:19 255:11257:23 258:19260:10 261:24,24263:9,18 264:10,16265:2 281:4 297:12297:18 323:24331:10,15 345:1,22346:2,14,16

fibrosis 139:9field 65:8 162:3fifth 6:22figure 59:18 138:3figured 296:25file 55:2filed 78:20film 315:24final 207:9finally 133:20find 10:24 72:6 96:5

96:7,9,11 117:11120:22 121:2 171:5188:19 261:5 275:5279:19 282:3298:12 337:20338:1,4 347:14

finder 316:12fine 26:10 123:24

155:24 176:18203:1 221:2 251:16276:3 290:12,20,22293:15

fined 213:20finger 174:3 200:23

201:22 288:11331:12 345:14

fingers 150:16finish 12:9,12,16

23:21,24 36:1848:15,16 51:16 54:857:23 59:21 77:8,1281:5,7 106:11114:21 118:13122:4 144:14 153:4165:8,9 202:21206:7 208:24250:11 262:7269:23 276:15326:20 345:11

finished 13:5 36:2154:10,11 144:11,12144:15 254:7,16270:6 322:6 324:6

[explain - finished] Page 16


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firm 9:24 40:2244:16 77:2,15 78:378:16 335:13

first 10:6 11:3 12:822:8,21 26:15,1732:1 38:16 39:2,1450:9 55:6,15,2056:21 58:13 63:667:14,16 79:4,9,1279:18 81:2,14 90:794:17 97:21 105:12108:6 114:12115:19 128:9,10,12128:14 129:2,4,13133:21 136:19138:21 149:6,9158:12 183:4,9,10192:10 196:17205:18,18 206:3210:14 226:7234:11 237:6252:11 253:13268:8 275:12279:13,14,23 283:9288:10 295:17297:22 298:2 301:9303:17 307:5,20,24311:20,20 317:5,8330:7,25 338:13341:17

fisher 1:5,5 3:16,195:8 6:15 8:9,24 10:314:24,25 15:4,12,1315:15,19,23,2416:13,18 17:8,11,1518:20,23 22:5 23:524:13 28:1 29:14,1832:24 38:7,9,15

39:14,23 40:13 45:145:2 46:5 49:16,2350:3,3,10,18 51:651:21,25 52:11,1252:17,20 53:1,2,5,755:6,9,15,20,2156:8 58:1,7,14,1558:20,24 59:5,16,1860:3 62:2,24 64:564:10,18 65:16,2466:8,12,18 67:6,1169:3,15,17 70:973:14,16,24 74:1076:3 77:19 78:4,1879:3,10,13,18 80:1382:16,21 83:25 84:884:9,21 85:5,2388:5 89:25 90:992:2,9 98:8,13100:17,19 101:15102:11,23 103:4104:3,17 107:16108:6,8 109:23110:19 111:9,15112:1,17 113:6,10113:13 118:8120:15,24 124:12124:20 127:2,7,14127:16,25 129:16129:25 136:19,23137:1 139:17 140:6141:1,12 142:15143:18 144:3,5,19144:24 145:8,19,21146:9,12 147:4,11147:22,23 148:11148:25 150:23151:3,22 152:2153:12 154:21156:18 161:1162:23 163:5,15,18164:12,19,20,21166:2 168:10,19169:2 170:13 171:5171:24 175:14,21

178:15 180:1,22181:16 182:11,25184:2,20 186:23187:2,10,19 188:20189:4 190:17193:10,24 196:25197:3 199:8 200:2202:7,17 211:3215:5 221:11222:21 223:9 224:2224:13,25 225:9,21227:20 228:22229:2,14 231:7232:11 235:25237:16,18 238:1240:12 242:2243:23 244:18246:23 248:4 252:5259:17 260:5,18,23261:2,18 266:1272:10 274:10275:22 277:2278:13 281:24282:18 283:10284:15 287:18293:25 294:18,24295:4 296:2 298:4299:8 304:25 305:2305:11,17,24 306:3306:12,15,20307:13,15 308:20309:13,15 311:14313:1 319:9,10,14319:17,25 320:4321:24,25 322:12322:13,14,18323:10,16,19 324:1324:8,15 325:2332:16,24 335:11338:24 339:10,20342:25 343:4346:20,21 347:3,23348:1,10

fisher's 39:18 64:1996:4 125:3 151:10

fitting 150:16five 45:10,19 53:6,7

54:20,21 61:8 168:8189:19 248:19288:12 289:14315:22

fka 6:3flaking 294:6 295:2fleece 150:17flew 315:20flexboard 235:17

295:21 296:15flip 172:10floor 5:10,14,18 6:2

6:18 7:6 122:15florida 317:21fmc 7:4focus 148:18foil 235:14 236:3folks 240:1following 221:24

235:6 279:21follows 9:2fontaine 221:12,17

251:1fool 325:22foot 139:8forbidden 284:23

286:10,16,18 287:3287:4 325:25

foresight 80:18forget 83:20 94:4

112:22 165:12285:9

forgive 254:22forgot 132:13form 13:23 14:7,13

15:16 16:2 17:1,1618:14 19:15 21:628:15 29:3 30:932:21 33:10 34:943:4,8,14 45:3 49:450:13 53:9 58:959:7 61:12 62:463:10 66:2 68:4

[fire - form] Page 17


71:2,13 73:3 75:375:10 78:6 79:2580:14 81:17 82:1783:5 84:1 85:2586:8,19 87:23 89:1893:12 96:12 97:298:15 99:14,22101:9,19 103:6105:14 106:1,17107:22 108:22109:15 110:2,23111:23 113:23115:2,23 117:4,13117:25 118:19,22120:19,25 121:12123:11 124:15125:17,20 126:6,25127:19 128:4133:18 135:10138:22 139:14140:7,16 141:20142:8,11 143:13,21145:10,23 146:17149:2 152:3,14153:22 154:15155:3,6 157:12159:4 161:6 162:7163:7,24 164:8,25165:20 166:18168:2 172:17173:13 175:6177:10,23 184:6,24186:15 187:5 189:8195:19 196:2198:11 199:3203:14,22 204:11205:12 207:12208:5 211:8,20217:2 218:2,20219:4 220:6,11222:24 224:3,17226:22 227:22228:9,16,24 229:5,9230:21 231:20234:15,20 236:25

238:3,18 239:6,24240:16 241:4246:25 256:9 258:3258:20 267:18269:11 274:23280:20 282:21285:20 286:19290:5 342:16344:17,18 345:2346:23

forma 288:21,24formed 121:13

308:5former 16:18forms 295:20forster 19:24 20:4

20:18 21:21 22:1723:9,18,19 24:6,1331:20 303:25

forte 64:2,4,7,11149:21 169:6292:11

forte's 292:14forty 68:22forward 251:20

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223:13 255:6found 119:4 306:20foundation 89:3

135:10 149:3 151:1152:15 157:13163:25 165:16166:6 170:17,18171:1 172:18173:14 175:6192:15 195:20196:3 209:18211:22 218:3 219:5219:19 220:12228:10 237:1,14241:6 259:23270:18

fountains 26:15

four 36:3 54:20150:16 168:8183:16 190:1248:14 272:25292:23,24 295:4300:14

fourth 216:24frame 66:5france 315:24frank 332:13frankly 101:23free 76:17freed 119:6,11,14friday 289:24friend 64:25friendly 64:9,11friends 64:7frivolous 226:15

280:7,13,16 281:19282:7,14,19 283:13283:15 290:15,16326:3

frog 54:4frogs 54:5front 69:13 150:15

174:22 175:8253:20 272:18

full 44:14 46:4114:13 115:7 132:2143:2,9 147:1156:13 213:24237:6

fully 150:13fume 55:1,3 61:16

61:19,21,25 62:1,263:7,19 95:23100:21 161:4,10,14161:19 162:4,14,16162:22,25 163:2164:4 165:24 166:2166:4,7,9,10,20183:22 187:3,19188:6,13,14,18189:1 200:24 203:6203:10,15,16,25

204:3,21 205:20236:6 285:13295:18 296:3,12

functions 275:22funny 130:13furnaces 150:15

295:18 296:3furniture 53:13 55:1

55:4 235:18 295:10295:15

furor 281:18further 276:22

348:23 350:13future 214:5 226:14

325:19

g

gaffrey 16:22gain 49:2gartlir 6:21gary 6:22gasketing 235:15

236:4gaskets 200:24

202:16,19,20295:22 296:16

gathered 28:19gauze 197:4 215:10

217:8 242:11,15,18245:11,22 246:22247:2 248:3 249:10249:17,21 288:19289:3,5 318:25319:5 320:16 321:4323:13,23 325:1,18326:7 332:18333:19,23

general 5:20 6:7103:14,16 121:6197:24 235:10,23305:5 311:11 312:7

generalist 304:17generalities 178:2generally 22:15,25

31:5,10 62:3 149:11

[form - generally] Page 18


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gentleman 329:24gentlemen 200:15getting 75:12 144:17

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give 10:22 11:20,2011:22 12:21 56:1572:8 83:17 100:1123:13 124:18128:25 134:5149:15 197:18217:1 219:17263:25 271:12282:11 298:6308:24 309:11310:22 318:15337:25

given 10:18 266:21267:7

gives 294:3giving 240:5 267:8

285:14 286:1310:11 332:6

glass 54:13,14130:13,16

glove 150:10 178:16gloves 87:17 88:25

109:2,9 110:9118:15 130:19,25150:13,24 151:4,10151:16,17,20,22152:8 153:13160:25 161:3,18162:16,17 167:23167:25 173:5,8174:3,13,23,24177:6,7,14 178:9,14178:18 179:4,6,8197:8 200:23201:21 203:6 204:1205:20 208:2,11,14

208:21 209:8,12210:2,10 211:18229:10 230:2 246:3259:11 261:15262:16 265:1288:11 318:25319:5,16 320:1,5321:3 323:13,22324:25 325:17326:6 331:12332:17 338:14339:11 345:14

go 21:19 39:17 40:347:7 48:16 50:1353:15,19 55:1157:21,22 62:2266:17 77:11,1378:10 89:11 116:17116:20 117:1,10121:20 128:25131:6 132:7 144:2149:14 150:2 153:9154:4 167:18169:18 206:15216:8 226:17 232:1233:5 251:20254:10 283:8 291:3301:15 305:11307:18 309:22311:1 312:23313:15 314:11315:19 334:4339:15 340:13

goal 11:3 306:1,5,6goals 306:11,14god's 198:2goes 162:12 241:3

314:19 336:10,20going 12:10,11 24:3

29:11,14,18 37:1341:7 42:9 59:2562:10 66:1 69:2271:1 72:21 73:1374:21 75:2,9 76:1276:15 87:23 88:19

89:11,17 90:1994:19 98:2,23 99:13100:11 101:8102:13 103:8110:15 112:9,15,16117:24 123:10,22126:4 129:21131:14 132:10133:20 135:9147:12 148:9 150:8155:24 164:22,25165:9,12,13 166:17168:6,17 174:20175:5 176:1 178:20180:10 187:9 190:7191:9 196:5,12197:16 198:10199:20 203:13204:10 212:10218:7 221:4,21225:4 229:8 230:20232:4 237:13 239:5241:19 244:8,22246:19,24 247:13248:14 251:22253:10 254:2 255:4256:12 262:1263:10 269:10270:25 271:11,23272:25 275:18279:13 280:25282:20 283:4 284:7289:23,25 293:7298:18,21 300:2302:10 303:15,23307:19 316:6319:19,22 338:24339:1 343:23348:11 349:6

golden 315:7,25goldfein 7:5golf 19:10golup 7:6gonen 5:3 8:20 9:3

9:23

good 8:1 9:20,2112:17 20:8,10 25:1260:5,22 61:2 62:2062:21 131:17,18148:2 190:5,6,15278:21,21,23288:13 302:1303:18 304:6338:15

goofy 281:1gordon 5:17 39:3gotten 158:3govern 314:7governed 258:2

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279:17 302:13305:24

governmental 33:13governs 258:12,25gpa 297:11grade 190:18 191:12

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graduated 26:22303:14 314:23

grandchildren198:7,16 300:13

granddaughter300:17

grandfather 198:1grandson 300:16grant 5:14gratifying 306:10gratis 44:12great 44:7 232:4

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[generally - grind] Page 19


grinding 336:16gross 6:21 296:21ground 10:23group 50:4,10 51:6

125:15 191:11198:4 249:4 293:17304:25 312:5341:25

groups 125:5 341:22grow 299:15grown 299:24guess 11:15,22 69:9

130:4,11 136:11151:14 211:24219:8 247:12266:23 309:18,18316:6 341:19 346:8

guesses 11:12guessing 136:9

196:19 210:21219:9

guy 161:17 286:25

h

h 3:11 4:1 156:23,23157:8 180:23 191:6193:17,17 234:16242:4,4 252:7 264:8264:8 289:14313:20

habit 278:11haklay 3:5,7 5:3

8:20,20 9:15,18,2313:20 14:2,10,1815:22 16:11 17:3,2018:18 19:19 21:824:1 28:22 29:530:15 32:23 34:1236:20,23 37:19 43:543:13 45:7 47:1,1348:20 49:8 50:2151:20 53:14 54:1054:15 58:5,18 59:1459:24 60:14 61:1562:8,19 63:15 66:9

68:8,15 70:4 71:671:16 72:25 73:675:6,17,23 76:16,2477:6,10,13,21 78:1380:3,20 81:10,2182:19 83:12 84:686:3,13 87:1 88:488:15 89:14,24 91:293:1,20 95:1,696:17 97:8 98:11,1999:8,18 100:4,15101:13,24 102:4,8102:20 103:12105:20 106:7,22107:23 108:5109:11,20 110:11111:1 112:3,9,14114:4 115:4 116:1117:9,17 118:6,17119:8 120:7,13,21121:4,20 122:2,24123:20,24 124:6,23125:23 126:8 127:5127:23 128:16129:23 130:10131:16 133:20134:2,14,16,21,23135:12 136:14137:18 138:24140:2,20 141:7,25142:13 143:1,15144:1,10,15,23145:17 146:3,25147:18 148:2,8,14148:19,23 149:5,20149:25 150:1,22151:7,19 152:10,22153:6,18 154:1,23155:4,14 156:4157:17,24 158:1,17159:11 160:14161:20 162:20163:13 164:6,17165:4,11,21 166:11166:25 168:15,22

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halfway 169:15hand 150:9 190:25

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[grinding - happened] Page 20


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hazardous 119:5184:4 186:25 187:4187:13 321:5,13,16322:2 324:16326:16 327:15

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hazcom 313:20head 25:22 26:5,6

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[happened - humans] Page 21


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i

i.e. 331:12idea 15:6 111:3,7,15

147:4 149:4 151:21177:5 255:19273:13 286:8 293:8293:11 294:14

ideas 191:18 217:13identical 149:21identification 134:1

148:13 156:3168:21 180:18190:13 199:24212:15 221:7 232:8241:24 252:1 272:7278:9 284:12287:12 291:18300:23 328:12335:7

identified 6:19334:24 336:1

identify 8:16 273:19300:25 329:22335:23

identifying 273:3334:19

idiot 138:4ignoring 292:18,19illinois 5:7illness 58:1 306:10illnesses 25:14image 184:3 186:23immediately 279:19

323:6impart 126:14impetus 332:15

333:2implement 306:13implemented

306:18implication 13:24implied 332:23implying 277:16important 348:14impossible 199:10

236:16 263:21imprecise 258:14improper 266:12inappropriate

154:14 165:2,19inch 69:12,12

183:16inches 150:13incidents 293:5,8,16include 228:7

234:15included 22:9 36:8

38:23 177:1 212:5,8257:12 296:2 317:3317:5

includes 137:11143:10 317:19

including 110:8171:22 187:10

incomplete 93:1397:3 120:1 123:12127:20 128:5154:16 162:10169:7 177:24 208:6209:17 282:21

inconsistent 203:20incorrect 333:3incorrectly 6:19increased 51:9incubators 295:19

296:4indecipherable

145:24independence 5:22independent 272:19index 1:4indiana 53:18 55:1

62:25 63:1,3,8,1891:11,15,24 92:1,992:10,21 93:4,7,1693:22,24,25 94:3,894:13 95:11,13,2196:4,20 97:13 98:1098:22 99:2 115:1,8115:11,14,22 163:1163:3,14 166:15167:3,13 172:1182:1,4,6,9,10,14,15184:5,9 185:14,16186:1,19 188:13,19189:6 203:11 204:4204:19 223:8232:13,16 233:2,10233:15,18 295:7,11296:1

indicate 11:9 72:23270:14 337:13

indicated 222:25indirect 39:22indirectly 39:20

56:25 114:14,18individual 286:12industrial 24:23

51:22 52:2,6 57:5

311:24 312:8314:18

industry 305:22infinitum 147:13information 128:2

191:21 217:24219:1,12 242:20257:12 271:4276:21 285:15302:10,11,15,17,20

informed 97:12167:21 193:9 269:5

infused 206:17ingersoll 7:4ingested 228:3inhalation 139:6inhaled 228:3initiated 80:21initiating 332:15initiative 83:11

125:14injure 100:22injuries 25:14 306:9injurious 122:9inkling 253:21,25input 207:8,9

210:23 211:13inquiring 293:18insist 129:8,17inspect 31:12 32:4inspected 25:11

26:10 304:3inspecting 35:13inspection 20:24,24inspections 20:7

21:1 28:6 35:24inspector 34:25 35:3

35:7inspectors 37:22instance 11:13,23

336:20instances 216:2institute 314:25institutions 309:24

310:22

[humbly - institutions] Page 22


instruct 69:22 72:2182:11 94:19 116:6332:3

instructed 13:6103:18 171:25188:4

instructing 13:168:12 75:3

instructor 311:2314:18,22

instrument 295:9,13instruments 235:8

295:15,16insulated 295:21

296:15insulation 119:22insurance 19:25

20:11,18 21:21104:15,20 227:17

insure 312:6insurer 312:4insurers 311:23intend 12:21intended 110:1,21

209:8 260:25 261:6intending 310:1intentionally 269:13

269:22 270:8interdepartmental

232:11 284:14interest 16:25interested 152:1,4

273:3,18interface 125:3

318:10interfaced 58:4interfacing 59:16interiors 183:21interject 319:20international 1:6

313:18 315:7interoffice 212:19

221:10interpret 200:18

264:13 331:8

interpreted 306:23344:20

interrupt 165:10183:23 300:5

interrupted 122:1interrupting 144:9

153:8interviewed 50:17

312:1,2,19interviewing 318:3interviews 311:18

313:16 318:19introduce 9:22introduction 112:23inventory 108:7

338:19,25 339:7,11investigate 312:23investigation 26:16

28:6 34:14 136:6183:17 260:17

investors 49:24invitation 125:14invite 124:25 125:12invited 125:11,25

289:25 308:8,24310:3

invites 310:7invoke 73:5 75:15invokes 75:10involve 306:14

336:18involved 18:5 80:17

83:9 112:1 283:11involvement 104:1involving 200:19

201:18 331:9iron 137:12islands 302:7issue 16:24 29:6,22

29:24 30:1 96:22126:24 143:17275:20,25 276:4

issued 32:19 183:18issues 20:25 21:2,4

29:16 46:1 78:4

94:9 112:25 114:22115:11,13,15,16125:7 179:25 216:4318:4 342:9

issuing 48:7,7item 173:4 305:1items 61:10 112:17

161:2,21 163:17279:19,21 288:9,12288:17,20 289:14336:17

j

j 5:10jack 121:25 181:9

181:11,14,17193:15 194:18195:23 206:3212:22,23 214:6221:12,15 222:10222:19 234:12,13242:3,4,14 243:19243:22 278:15,16278:18,20,22 284:8285:11,14 286:1287:19,24 288:8289:19 315:11316:5 333:17

janet 7:6janitor 180:2january 264:5 302:9

328:18 344:3jasons 7:1jersey 1:1,8 6:2,6,14

52:7 53:20 77:2103:11,19 113:19114:6 269:17 297:8298:4

jfk 7:6jim 181:9 192:11,19

192:22 232:13,25233:1,9 234:18237:10

joan 1:3 8:9 10:7

job 20:4,15 21:13,1922:4,8 26:20 31:1931:21 32:2 33:1736:8 38:6,16 40:1240:15,16 42:1349:11,17 50:2051:12 55:18 65:680:9 85:20 89:10118:8 126:20 233:6236:11 305:12

jobs 18:23 49:3joe 284:16,19,20,22

285:8,9joel 221:12,17,23

222:15 251:1john 1:24 2:2 3:3,15

3:16,18,19,21,22,233:24 4:5,6,7,8,9,104:11,12,13,16 5:66:9 8:14,23 9:113:14 133:22,24134:20 148:10,11155:25 156:1,17168:18,19 180:11180:16 181:13190:7,11 199:20,22201:6 212:11,13221:4,5 232:4,6241:20,22 243:22251:23,24 252:9,11255:14 272:5,13278:5,7 284:10287:7,10 291:15,16299:7 300:22331:17 336:4 349:5

join 348:11,14joined 348:1joseph 7:5journal 311:25

312:10journals 104:5,11jr 1:18 5:14juan 45:11judge 211:14

[instruct - judge] Page 23


judy 211:14july 289:24jumped 208:22jumping 144:13june 287:20 288:8

338:7junior 10:11 191:1,4

191:13 205:5 244:4244:16,17 252:7253:7,22 272:12275:13,14 293:24334:12,18

k

k 1:5 24:16 180:23181:10 191:6 252:7

kathy 15:5,11 16:1265:1 66:17,23 73:2574:13 75:5 94:18,21

keating 5:18keep 134:16 144:8

178:3 196:18 244:1325:21 343:18

keeping 37:10 184:2186:23 278:11

kelley 7:1kennedy 6:9kept 104:25 105:4kettle 294:3,10,12

294:19kidding 278:21kids 54:1 195:17

199:15 213:10,13216:16,16 247:10252:20,23 269:7277:5,18 293:24294:24

kill 312:22kind 10:16,19 20:12

20:16,25 22:1243:22 51:2 53:2460:23 63:23 91:1994:7 119:15 127:6127:24 129:9,18147:20 153:17

161:5 171:20 194:2194:5 202:2 210:1214:21 258:11

kinds 273:24 281:1302:17,20

kit 129:2kits 128:9,12,14

129:4,13 307:5kluger 5:9klugman 315:11,21

316:5knew 14:16 24:3

42:18,18 43:1748:18,23,24 49:1073:1,11,13 74:477:16 84:24 85:2138:14 176:9 187:2187:12 230:1241:16 267:11281:18 296:11

know 9:22 11:7,1511:18,21,24 12:2,312:9,13 14:15 15:1816:9 17:18 19:1720:3 24:19 33:14,2534:22 42:16 43:1045:4,5 46:22 48:2,948:21 49:1,5,7,9,1350:16 52:7,25 56:1759:25,25 60:13 61:361:3,23 63:24 64:264:4 65:7 66:1969:14 70:22 73:1574:14,20 75:7 76:2183:6,7 84:10,19,2084:23 86:4,11,1587:7,11 89:4,8,990:13,14 91:6,1892:23,24 93:2494:15 95:12,17 96:896:15 97:12,15 99:599:6 100:13 101:15101:20 102:17103:7,9 108:1,2111:19 112:20

114:21 116:22117:7,18 120:8127:21,22 129:24131:25 133:10135:10,21 136:2,9136:11,20,21137:21 138:9,11139:13 140:10,17140:18,21,23145:12,13,15146:13,20,24 147:7149:3 151:2,15152:8,12,16,17153:2 154:3,5157:10 163:10,10163:11,12 164:1,10164:15,16 165:6,24166:6,12 167:1,5,9167:14 170:9,17,18170:20 171:2,4,14171:23 172:4,19175:9,10,13,19176:5,5,7,19,25178:1,5,11,12,14181:5 182:10,21183:5 184:4,13185:1,8 186:5,17,18186:24 187:8,16,18188:2,7,19 189:9,13191:17,22 192:16192:19 193:21,22193:23 195:11197:3,10,12 198:20202:12,13,17204:24 205:15206:5 207:22 208:1208:21 209:10,21210:6,20 211:1,22212:3 214:18 215:3215:23 217:13219:15,20 221:19223:8,14 224:4,20225:7 226:21,23228:11 229:6231:14,21 232:23

233:4 234:1,3 236:2236:3,3,4,5,12237:2,4 239:2,14240:18,21,25 241:6241:8,10,16 243:23244:18 245:4,22246:9,12 247:4248:8 249:19252:16 253:4,5,24256:13,16 257:7,11260:2,24 261:1,20261:22 262:10,12265:20 268:7,23273:21 274:14275:20 276:4277:24 281:23282:1,2,9 283:6,9283:11,12 284:22285:16 286:5,14,17286:20,24 290:1,24294:12,17 295:9,25296:8,14 297:17299:9,12 305:23312:25 316:13317:7 324:5 331:2331:23 340:1347:15 349:2

knowingly 324:13324:15,18

knowledge 19:1237:20,23 38:1,539:10 50:7 51:2452:9 61:14,20,2479:21 80:16 90:1191:23 105:19 110:8111:13 117:19119:2 122:22127:12 140:1146:22 151:13159:22 167:10171:25 172:6 210:8211:17,23,25 215:4228:21 229:3233:23 237:10239:8 243:16

[judy - knowledge] Page 24


247:24 257:3262:15 270:20272:24 273:16276:10,19,22 277:1277:25 278:2282:25 287:1 291:7298:5 319:18 321:1323:11,20 324:1,8329:7 334:21339:23 345:15

known 85:1 116:14117:12 144:21186:9,10,12,16189:5

knows 148:20165:18 282:23

kohler 191:5,7252:6 253:2 254:21257:16 265:9268:12 272:11,20273:1 274:13334:12,17

kopper 25:14 28:132:14

koppers 24:15,1825:4,10,23 26:19,2126:24 27:11,2428:11,13 29:1,631:8,11,14,20 32:132:8 33:22 34:3,5,834:20 35:12 38:2,6304:8,16

l

l 1:4,12 5:21 181:1191:6 252:7 289:14

l.l.p. 7:1lab 54:16 245:13

246:3 304:14 305:4306:14,24 307:10308:5,13,14,18,24309:5 310:3,8311:10,11 312:7313:8 318:4,24319:3 321:2 322:1

322:19 323:3,12,22324:24 325:17326:6,14 332:17,25338:24

labor 40:24 41:6156:7 158:20 184:1184:13 314:17335:4 336:2

laboratory 53:13,2154:22 55:1,4 57:1758:16 107:14,15,16107:19 110:9 130:6144:6,19,20 151:4158:7 159:15160:18,22,23161:12,18 200:22201:20 203:5,10222:5 230:2 264:25294:15 306:22308:3,9 312:16313:18,24 314:7,18315:2,10 318:8,9331:3,11 332:1336:12

labs 54:6 304:16314:2 318:18

lack 152:15 165:15195:20

lacks 89:2 135:10149:3 163:25 166:5170:16,18 172:18173:14 175:6 196:3

lady 66:24land 129:2language 56:6 83:10

89:9 153:17,20161:17 171:4174:25 206:2,17209:1 213:24326:25 327:6,7,12

large 150:16 183:15235:16 236:5 294:2312:24 318:15340:5

largest 315:3late 12:1 325:14,14

344:1latency 240:15,22

241:16lavin 5:21law 1:1,9 9:24 28:19

28:20 32:17 77:2,15129:1,2 257:19,19258:25 259:2271:14

lawn 52:7 53:20103:10,19 113:19114:6,11,13 136:8136:13,16 145:4,7145:20,22 146:6,7297:6,7,17 298:4

lawsuits 226:15279:18 280:6,7,13281:5,19 282:7,14282:17,22 283:1,10283:13,15 290:16326:3

lawyer 13:3,1094:23

lawyers 12:24lead 225:18leading 17:17

319:12 325:3326:18 327:25344:19 348:16,19

learn 120:15 121:6140:8 226:7 306:22

learned 31:9 48:2591:3 323:1

leave 165:13 226:1283:17 343:12

leaving 280:10lecture 312:7lectured 308:18

341:7,16lectures 309:2,5,8

309:11 310:21led 275:7 307:7

left 41:13 52:2164:10,14 92:6 105:7150:4 172:13,16232:1 280:8,9

legal 10:19 13:24,2414:14 43:9 60:977:18 79:2 145:11259:21 271:13279:17 280:3

legally 128:22145:13 213:16

legs 280:24length 108:24letter 3:18,22,23 4:8

4:9,17,18 71:8,1794:7 135:5 156:1157:18,20 158:5,8158:18,23,25159:10,12,17160:16 161:16162:1,3,9,18 166:13166:19 190:11,17192:7 193:7 194:17195:4,13,24 197:9197:11 198:4199:22 200:2,8201:11,15,17203:17,20 204:22205:3,16 206:17,20207:17 209:3 211:3211:14 212:7213:10,13 215:16220:4,25 223:13,18226:1 238:22 239:6239:16,18 244:3,16244:24 245:18246:18 247:1,10,25249:9,13,16 250:2250:14,16,18,19,22251:24 252:5,22253:11 254:12,22256:24 262:20,24263:12,22 264:2,5265:8,22 266:7267:11,20,24 268:9

[knowledge - letter] Page 25


268:15,20,21,23270:12 271:6,7,9,19272:4,5,18,20 273:2273:12 274:2,7275:6,7,12 276:5,13276:23 277:3,5293:17,24 294:24328:10,19,20 330:7330:14,16,18,19,22330:25 332:10,14333:1,17,25 334:11335:3,5 336:1,7,12336:22 337:1,6343:14 344:4,4,8,14345:10,19

letterhead 180:21192:5 200:3 242:1252:5 272:11287:18

letters 106:25195:17 211:6 247:7

letting 165:7level 17:22 301:20

301:22levels 109:16 175:3

247:1liability 289:22

290:13,19liberate 158:10

200:25 205:22255:10 257:23258:19 260:9 263:3331:14 344:25345:22 346:2,25

liberating 346:14liberty 7:2library 104:25

105:3 348:19lie 327:17life 102:19 280:18limb 220:17limited 1:20 7:8

8:13 58:25 59:1237:17

line 216:24 234:11261:12 297:14300:3 314:16

lined 150:17liner 95:24liners 119:21 161:11

200:24 203:7,10,16204:22 205:21

lines 273:1 315:6lining 61:19 119:19linings 285:13link 230:9linked 293:19list 126:16 138:20

143:6 203:4 234:14234:17,19 235:6,20235:21 236:23237:7 238:17,20341:15

listed 45:23 61:9173:24 285:22308:16

listen 139:25 155:20211:13 348:10

listing 242:14,18246:21 247:19333:18

literally 307:9literature 104:16,18

107:11 109:4116:14,19 117:3119:4,5 122:22123:6 124:1 140:5141:11 144:4,18209:24 210:7 214:5231:2,8 240:12255:4,12 256:20257:1,5,12

little 23:15 26:2241:20 42:14 75:1475:21,22 87:13132:10 144:17148:1 167:15281:22 287:14304:21 325:23

liza 7:1llc 5:13llp 5:6,17 6:1,8,17

6:21local 6:15 37:3,4located 8:6 347:16

347:17location 56:24

194:11 242:5,10locations 45:12

54:18 308:15lodge 300:2logerman 65:1,10

66:17,23long 11:13,16 14:5

21:18 23:9 27:1,1735:23 39:4 40:741:5 42:6 68:1972:6 82:3 104:7117:11,21 131:24132:3 150:13153:25 165:11195:11 204:6,25220:1 241:1 299:9299:19 309:23311:5,6 312:16314:13 316:10340:13 349:1

longo 6:13longshoring 119:10

119:16look 12:22 69:14

78:10 117:2 138:20148:14 149:6169:17 172:22199:18 206:3217:17 219:23233:24 234:6235:23 253:16269:9 271:3 288:5289:16 338:17343:23

looked 64:16 81:3194:23 226:2250:19,21 262:20

275:6looking 20:25 26:11

69:11 138:5 148:20159:18 172:21183:3 266:4 276:24332:15 337:6

looks 135:14 148:15168:16 169:14207:2 208:16288:20

loose 150:16losing 183:2lot 12:19,22 66:12

92:9 123:11 208:2240:1 284:25299:12 303:18330:12

loud 29:7,12 41:23155:5

love 198:1,15low 279:19 336:13lunch 112:11,12

165:6lunchtime 112:10lung 139:10,14

140:10,12,13,19141:11,13 142:2,23143:11,19 144:4146:15,21

m

m 232:15,15 288:18289:14 313:20317:13

machine 350:10magazine 104:14magazines 312:11

312:12,14magnesium 137:12mailed 79:22 86:18main 305:21major 18:3makeup 120:12making 56:14 293:2

[letter - making] Page 26


malignancy 140:13mall 5:22man 10:10 180:23managed 343:18management 40:24

41:6 311:25 312:10322:13

manager 50:2,3,1051:5

managers 107:14318:8

manchester 191:1252:8 272:12

manipulate 320:20manner 263:13

350:9manual 127:17

313:18,24 314:8manufacture 53:8

87:12 96:23 128:11147:22 162:17,19162:22 163:17188:15 222:9225:11,23 226:5235:25 237:17246:1 249:24251:10 319:11,14336:16

manufactured53:12,20,22 54:14112:17 147:11161:14 162:16163:3,18,23 168:11171:18 185:16186:1,6 193:1,10223:8 224:6,15,23224:25 226:11237:18

manufacturer 89:7122:14 128:13,19129:4 222:2,22223:25 251:4 255:1255:3,13,25 256:5256:16,17,20271:11,24 276:11

manufacturer's257:4

manufacturers 89:9111:7,16

manufactures 111:4manufacturing

45:10,19,24 53:754:18,19,21 57:6,961:9 62:25 91:1192:2,3,21 94:1495:11,20 100:9,19101:5,17 102:11103:4 116:3,9166:16 167:4 193:6194:8,13 223:9297:7

marc 16:21march 1:19 2:9 8:4

335:3 336:3 350:10margaret 8:10margin 288:13

338:15marinate 295:21

296:15mark 133:21 134:19

148:9 168:17180:10 190:7199:20 212:10221:4 232:4 241:20278:5 284:7 300:19328:9 334:24343:13

marked 133:21,25134:6 148:13155:25 156:2168:21,22 180:12180:17 190:12199:23 212:14221:6 232:7 241:23251:23,25 270:12272:6 278:8,13284:11 287:7,11291:15,17 300:22328:11,17 332:8333:2,11,25 334:10

335:1,2,6 337:21,23343:24 344:3,7

market 5:4 156:9211:18 273:25284:24

marketed 87:5 88:689:25 109:24196:25 197:4 202:7

marketing 50:2056:19 57:15 127:22135:25 181:20,21206:17 210:23211:2,6,12,16 212:5214:3 221:18,19236:14 279:1286:11,25 288:19289:16 290:4 291:5291:10 307:1313:25 338:16

marking 328:20,21marquis 317:13,16married 299:17,19mat 109:9 110:10

160:25 161:3213:22

material 53:24139:1,5 143:10188:25 213:18227:15 235:13279:20 284:23286:10 291:23

materials 22:10,1322:14,15 25:2,430:24 53:22 122:14122:15 192:24194:10 213:5215:13 227:19242:2 276:11279:22

mats 161:19 167:23168:1 200:23 202:1204:1 217:8 245:21246:3 265:1 288:16319:16 331:12345:15

matt 7:10 8:2matter 2:3 74:17,18

133:7 174:14209:11 274:21

matters 18:6 57:174:17

mattresses 19:11mccormack 5:21mcdonald's 280:22

281:7mcelroy 6:8mcgivney 5:9mcgowan 7:1md 47:19mean 11:7 13:1

20:19 23:1 25:3,427:16 29:23 30:1232:13 42:17 56:768:7 69:6 75:1181:8 91:16 93:24104:19 108:13118:5,12 119:11140:14,19,23160:21 171:8,12205:25 227:15256:3 260:20264:13 268:11277:12 280:2,5,19299:10 310:1319:20 325:20327:16 337:5

meaning 124:7193:1 274:5 290:14291:8

means 42:17 100:14102:18 138:12140:14 152:13,16181:5 207:23240:19 253:25290:18 311:3350:10

meant 32:16 138:16167:24 172:8237:11 246:10260:17 286:9,17,21

[malignancy - meant] Page 27


290:21,24,25302:25

meas 103:4measure 11:18

28:12 100:17103:18

measured 101:16103:3,10

measurement113:22

measurements102:23

measuring 170:24medical 47:25 52:12

52:17,20,23 57:1057:14,18 58:4,2159:2,6,17 60:23104:4 109:8 110:8307:25 308:2,3,5,6309:12 318:4,7,21

meet 37:1,3,4 68:16153:14 171:21173:8,19 174:12,24179:13 180:4,7327:4

meeting 126:3289:24

meetings 125:1,5,15125:24 275:21,22276:6 318:12

meets 150:17 152:12174:12 179:13180:4,7 215:2326:24 327:16

mellott 5:13member 316:14,16

316:20 317:24341:8 347:23,23348:2

memberships 316:9316:11 317:12

memo 3:21,24 4:5,64:7,10,11,12 71:871:18 174:17180:16,20 181:24

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[offices - osha] Page 31


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133:5 158:22prepared 301:2,7preparing 65:11present 7:10 111:18

259:11,12presentations

307:21president 38:19,22

39:2 182:18 279:4press 312:2,18,24pretend 44:24pretty 148:3 314:9prevent 25:13

306:11previous 29:15

43:18 74:4 197:22205:3 257:25

previously 77:24332:8 333:11334:10 337:21,22

price 134:24 135:1,5135:7,22,24 284:20285:6 286:9,11

price's 145:20print 157:7 292:2printed 4:13 153:20

213:17 285:2291:17 292:2

prior 29:14,18 30:265:21 66:7 69:2074:15,16,23 139:23155:7 316:7

private 33:13,15,1843:22

privilege 70:1 73:575:10,16

privy 302:12probably 11:17,19

14:24 21:25 27:4,1327:16 37:24 45:9,17

48:18 56:12 71:1071:14,18 80:17,1980:21 96:5 103:9,10104:13 106:25107:8 113:4 117:6130:4 132:12 136:8151:11 181:7 194:6200:13 215:14291:14 313:10314:14

problem 92:16 93:293:18 99:3,12100:21 105:19237:8,25 239:23

problems 92:20242:16 246:8 288:9333:20

procedurally 9:7procedure 2:5 42:24proceed 8:19 9:15proceeding 10:16proceedings 350:8

350:11process 81:13 95:20

104:1 119:13 184:7188:22 200:18209:13 331:9332:16,24

processes 23:12201:18 204:18

produce 53:25315:22

produced 45:1461:10 63:8 71:19,2482:13 84:18 164:19166:7,9 187:19193:1 203:11313:19,21 328:25329:5,8 335:10

producers 111:3producing 249:17product 53:16 87:16

88:13,22 95:20107:3 112:1 119:15127:15,17,25 128:3

128:21 146:21161:5 162:21170:21 177:3 184:3186:19,24 202:2207:9 217:18218:14 219:10224:7 236:12245:11 250:4 255:5256:21 257:13259:16,18 260:15260:19,22,24 261:4261:20 263:18264:15 273:3,4,6,19273:21 275:3277:19,19 288:18288:21 294:4,25307:15 324:10,17327:11,20 328:7334:20 339:24

production 45:179:10 84:22 102:25166:2,4 188:12,18188:22 204:18298:3 311:25312:10

products 19:9,11,1245:16,17 50:19,1953:23 54:22,2555:22 56:10 57:1761:21 82:8,9 86:686:23 87:5,8,2088:6,6 89:1,16,2596:23,23 98:9 99:4105:23 106:4,9,14106:24 107:1,9,20108:3,8,19 109:13109:14,23,25110:17,20 111:8,11111:17 119:24120:12,16 121:3,8124:2,4,13 127:10129:16 130:6133:11 144:6,19,20146:10 147:10,22147:23 152:20

[pollution - products] Page 34


155:11 158:7,9159:15 160:3,5,19160:22,23 161:13161:18 162:18163:22 164:21168:10 170:2,15,25171:17,21 173:24175:4 183:1,20184:9 185:16,25186:6,7,14 188:15193:1,3,5,9 200:21200:22,25 201:4,21203:5,10 204:9205:20,22 210:13213:19 221:14222:1,3,5,9,22223:7,25 224:15,23224:25 225:12,23226:5,11 228:2229:10,17 230:2234:13,14,19 235:9236:1,20,24 237:15237:18 245:12,17245:19 246:1249:24 250:18251:5,11 258:11,17259:10 260:4 261:6262:21 263:7264:20,25 269:7271:2 279:15,22280:24 281:5,22282:13 287:21289:21,23 293:19295:5,7 296:2,20297:6 313:21318:24 319:4,8,11319:15 321:3 322:1322:19 323:3,12,22324:24 325:7,17,23326:6,15 327:8,14327:17 331:3,11332:1,17 333:1336:12 337:14338:24 344:23345:16,20 346:4,19

347:3profession 19:24

22:22 306:7 316:19316:24 317:9

professional 39:5,1141:25 46:20,2148:22 60:23 114:13115:8 267:15 268:2303:16,24 316:20

professionals 37:2538:4,25 47:6,11,1448:6,10,19,24 49:249:10 122:8 316:25318:4,21

professions 123:8profit 288:13 296:21

338:15program 306:13programs 314:7

318:18progress 288:10project 117:21

127:7 268:19prolonged 139:8promise 83:21promoting 50:19pronounce 193:18proof 110:20proper 9:12 15:20

56:5properly 9:7properties 255:5

256:21proposed 79:22 80:9

81:3,15,23 82:1,1282:23 83:3 154:7

prosecute 122:4protect 150:5,14protection 33:11

115:18proud 314:9prove 109:13,25

110:3 111:17provide 26:19 27:11

110:20 113:14,18

114:5 115:21 116:2116:7 128:2 129:7,8129:12 285:14

provided 9:10 29:1986:6,16 107:20108:3 129:19

provinces 317:20public 2:6 350:7,23publication 313:25

317:4,8,16,18publications 104:11

104:23,24 105:1publicity 210:9

226:15 279:16293:5 321:10 326:1

publish 312:12published 33:12

311:17 313:16,17313:19

publishes 317:17puerto 45:11 307:10

308:16pulmonary 139:9punched 325:21purchase 273:5purchased 46:7

49:24,25 141:18,22purchasing 279:5

291:5pure 193:6purely 177:25purpose 75:13 95:10

209:9purposes 57:15,16

57:17,18 65:11pursuant 2:4 9:13pursue 288:19

289:16 338:16put 61:20 85:6

134:17 148:8149:18 154:10155:23 164:4,4165:24 168:15179:10 189:16199:17,19 212:9

221:2,3 226:20231:24 241:19251:17 252:25253:19 265:6,7268:13 272:1,17278:3,4 280:23284:6 287:5 290:20297:3 317:21318:17 320:2,7324:2,9 343:25347:8

putting 55:22 85:585:17 179:21,23188:25 269:18

q

qualified 47:20,22quality 136:6quantifying 253:25quantity 183:15

228:3quarter 183:16question 11:1,5

12:10,11,15,16 13:623:22,24 30:1247:24 51:17 59:2260:8 62:5 68:6 71:575:19 81:5 86:2488:2,8,19,21 89:589:12,15 91:1 94:2595:1,4 97:18,1998:3 99:14 101:9102:3,14 103:13106:11 110:15112:15,20 116:24118:1 120:3,23123:16,20 124:8125:2 128:8 130:11139:25 145:24,25146:2,8,20 147:15148:6 154:2,6 160:9165:7,12,15,22166:23 168:3170:18 172:7 175:6175:16 178:21

[products - question] Page 35


179:1 196:16 201:3202:22 207:14208:18 209:5227:12,23 229:24230:19,21 237:14244:9 245:2 250:11254:6 256:13 258:4258:14 260:2 262:2264:18,23 265:14266:6,8,10,11,14,15266:17 267:22269:11 271:18273:4 275:9 276:16277:4,11,14 283:4283:25 284:3 291:1297:24 304:13307:1 308:13319:23 324:6,20326:11 328:1333:22 334:16337:4 340:4 342:4

question's 196:3259:23

questioned 88:18questioning 255:2

256:1 300:4 340:17questions 11:4

12:25 13:8,24 61:1889:18 126:10,20147:12 164:2,23165:15,19 176:23183:24 191:10195:9 199:7,10,14201:9 205:10 215:8218:10,16 221:22222:12 228:12234:7 239:4 240:6242:24 252:4253:12 273:9 274:6275:2 285:3 298:9298:11,13,16,19299:10,13,14318:10 319:2320:24 323:10328:23 329:15,19

332:11 333:8,21334:14,19,22335:16,23 337:19337:24 340:2,9,11340:12 347:8,9

quickly 242:13303:20 313:17

quincy 315:12quite 23:6 30:11

41:10 62:7 128:8143:23

r

r 5:1 15:8 156:17,23157:1 180:23,24191:5,6 192:11193:17 201:6 242:4252:6,7,9,11 255:14264:8 272:11,13289:14 317:13331:17 336:4

radio 302:25raise 126:24 318:22raised 16:24 204:15ramifications

279:17 280:3ran 140:25 186:7rand 7:4rang 72:10,16range 113:10rapid 6:24raspanti 5:17raymond 1:10 8:10

10:9 133:8reach 120:14,22

121:11 229:15reached 77:23,23,24read 95:1,4 102:7

104:13,16,24107:11,11 123:7137:21,24,25139:11 143:11144:4 147:25 148:4148:6 150:8,18157:5 158:2,12

160:10 170:3181:23 183:12184:10 191:9,24194:25 200:15201:8 214:7 221:21222:11 230:16,19231:7 234:9 240:13240:14 242:13,23248:23,24 251:7253:10 254:14255:15 264:22266:13,17 272:25273:8 277:9,11279:10,13,23 285:2287:14 293:21294:7 295:23,25296:9 297:15311:22 313:17315:12 331:6,19

reading 22:9 216:21240:11 285:1

reads 183:25 284:21284:22

ready 62:22 251:20real 193:6 201:3

211:25 268:13303:20

really 66:6 68:774:22 87:19 89:2199:17 138:16,18147:24 164:24165:2 191:22219:15 240:24254:9 265:15304:17 321:14327:3

reason 65:15 109:7127:13 131:25,25152:7 170:12,23185:4,10,23 234:10236:22 296:18305:21 321:15,24325:16 344:25

reasons 92:8

recall 22:20 25:1726:7 56:12 63:7,1263:16,20 66:1070:16 76:19 81:1,1481:22 83:1 84:1085:3,12 86:12 87:791:22 92:20,25 94:696:6,10,18,24 97:2098:20 100:20,25101:2,3,6,11 104:21108:4 115:16116:10 155:8161:16 167:5,9174:8,9,16 176:6179:20 180:3182:23 184:17185:22 187:23188:1 189:15194:17 197:8198:11,12,21200:11 201:11,13201:15 202:12,19214:10,12,16,20,23214:25 215:9216:10,14 220:25222:14,16,25 225:3227:13 230:7234:18,24 235:19235:20 241:14243:10,13,17252:22,25 253:24257:8,10 270:11271:9 274:12275:10,15,19 279:8280:9,21 285:19286:3 316:4 317:6317:23 318:5 327:1330:4 332:1 338:22340:3 341:24

receive 33:20 34:1334:21 127:16255:12

received 34:23 37:672:20 77:1 85:10128:13 133:25

[question - received] Page 36


148:12 156:2168:20 180:17184:22 185:5190:12 195:16198:3,9,18,24199:23 212:14221:6 232:7 241:23251:25 272:6 274:6274:7 278:8 284:11287:11 291:17293:17 300:22303:4 328:11 335:6

receiving 184:17187:22 188:3194:17 198:22235:21 243:17270:12 274:12333:24 336:22

recess 62:13 131:10189:23 248:16298:23

recipient 285:23recite 329:9recognition 314:20

347:21recognize 136:24

138:8 145:1 156:12210:12,15 252:13288:24

recognized 313:2,8313:12 315:4

recollection 97:4,798:5 99:1,25 100:3102:16 117:15121:14 124:18185:15 193:4197:18,20 202:6218:5 219:6 220:14223:2,4,23 225:18234:23 258:23272:19 288:2330:13 331:21336:21,24

recommendation23:20 24:8

recommended249:21 289:3 304:4338:23

recommending290:3

recommends 288:17289:15

record 9:4,16 12:1713:2,25 62:11,18121:24 131:7,9,14134:9 149:17,20190:3 213:18 214:8232:20 244:23246:25 247:4248:14,21 251:7253:1 254:15255:15 266:4269:18 298:22299:3 311:22324:21 349:6

records 301:3refer 59:12 60:18,22

149:11 182:1242:19 258:6

reference 143:11145:20 158:7 314:2326:24

references 157:20335:16

referencing 145:18referral 61:1referred 73:19

181:11 184:14188:11 195:13196:14 204:17212:24 258:2314:23

referring 16:1 60:5103:14 138:4142:25 203:16213:22 222:23223:18 239:20245:13,18 251:12255:10 257:21,22263:23 311:21

refers 136:19 138:7193:8 225:25 247:1248:3 258:7 262:3344:4

refresh 185:14202:6 225:18234:23 330:12

regard 91:10 108:18160:24 168:4 204:4251:17

regarding 60:9 94:9216:12 231:17240:7 308:11328:23 331:25

regardless 183:25207:23 260:12,21261:4

regards 56:4 79:9109:21 124:12129:15 167:25175:20 180:4188:18 214:6222:10 225:11,22242:20 249:2 274:1274:18 280:15

regency 2:8regional 156:8,24

157:8regular 84:16 110:1

194:5,6regulations 175:8

279:17regulatory 107:1

108:13,16 109:8reilly 1:24 2:2 3:3

3:15,16,18,19,21,223:23,24 4:5,6,7,8,94:10,11,12,13,16,164:17,18 8:15 9:1,2013:19 14:1 62:20121:25 131:17133:22,24 134:20148:10,11 155:25156:1,17 158:4168:18,19 180:11

180:16 181:9,11,14190:7,11 193:15194:18 195:23199:20,22 201:6206:3 212:11,13,22212:24 221:4,5,12221:15 223:20232:5,6,22 234:12241:20,20,22 242:3243:19,22 251:23251:24 252:9,11255:14 266:4270:12,24 272:5,13278:6,7,16,18 284:8284:10 285:11287:7,10,19,24291:15,16 298:13299:9 300:19,21,22328:10,14,15,17330:14,21 331:17332:9 333:2,11,25334:10 335:5,22336:4,7 337:23,25338:1 339:2,3343:24,25 344:1,3349:5

reilly's 242:4relate 21:4,9 69:3

237:15 309:5,8311:9 315:9 317:14327:13

related 21:2 29:1629:20 30:4,7 69:578:4 91:19 105:13105:18 122:11129:18 162:9 177:1201:4 221:25 241:2281:25 282:7,17312:11

relates 89:5 195:4240:22 264:22301:9 313:22314:21 316:9

relating 63:18209:24,25 338:13

[received - relating] Page 37


relation 141:15,16release 120:18

122:16 124:3129:19 130:15,19160:7,7 166:14,14167:2,2,7,7,12,12175:4 177:15,19,20177:21,22 179:5188:5,21 189:3,5200:19 201:18208:4,12 209:25210:9 257:13 263:8263:18 264:10,10265:1 331:9 346:15346:15 347:4

released 111:11123:8 177:3,7178:18 208:15228:2 261:24264:16 323:23

releases 130:16relevance 320:9,12relevant 32:14relining 119:18remain 46:9 64:11remained 51:12remember 19:4

21:16 22:1 26:831:4 33:25 34:165:7 72:9 78:10,1678:19 81:2 90:7113:21 153:24159:14 160:24176:15,16,19196:15 198:24233:16,24 243:2,3,6245:7 267:20,23280:3,4,6,15 289:11335:25

remembered 238:7remove 154:13

183:19 289:22removing 290:13remunerated 60:13

remuneration 61:461:5

repeat 88:2 166:23213:11 245:25

repeating 130:5348:10

rephrase 39:15 68:973:4 75:11,15,1989:22 94:24 247:9260:1

rephrased 58:12replaced 289:4replacement 50:17

50:25 242:17279:20,22

replacing 182:25183:21

reply 219:16replying 336:10report 25:25 38:18

39:7,9,21,22 47:11154:18 288:8

reported 26:1,2,338:25 39:14,2047:15 56:25 114:14293:8,16

reporter 2:6 8:1712:5 95:4 102:7134:6 148:6 230:19266:17 277:11343:21

reporting 8:3,18represent 10:2,7,9

10:10 14:1 73:14169:5

represented 13:1014:6,16

representing 13:1814:12 17:5,13 77:3149:23

represents 17:14request 74:21 195:5

217:12,17 219:11requested 95:3

102:6 148:5 158:5

219:3 230:18266:16 277:10

requests 328:24require 55:7,16

195:25required 35:6,10

49:2,11 91:25129:25 154:12219:2 229:15

requirement 127:24128:9 129:1,11,14264:14

requirements150:17 152:12153:15 167:24168:4 170:1 171:22173:8,19 174:12,13174:25 175:1179:13 180:8 215:2326:25 327:5,22

reread 249:3research 107:12

109:6 118:18,24121:5 124:1 139:16139:24 143:16144:3 147:19168:14 210:8 227:6227:7,15 230:8311:24 312:9321:10 348:19

researched 119:3researchers 122:8resist 278:24resistant 235:12resold 128:1resources 38:20,22

38:25respect 9:8,11,13

283:5,23respectable 262:15respond 237:19

346:13responded 126:10

239:21 243:11252:16 265:21

340:2responding 216:12

276:4 334:19response 179:2

220:10 263:12274:12,18,19275:13,17 277:23328:18 337:1344:11 345:24346:14

responses 276:8responsibilities

50:23 51:7 56:2579:16,17 85:2091:10 93:17 114:16124:11 233:9

responsibility 39:19207:10,13,16

responsible 36:737:9 51:8 85:16207:5 282:10,11

rest 292:2rests 207:17result 95:15,18 97:9

97:16,23 139:8187:22 209:12

resulting 281:6resume 4:16 69:9

300:21 301:1,2,9303:16 307:18314:12 316:9340:24 341:1347:12,17

retained 13:17,2113:25

retire 40:1,11 41:1144:4

retired 40:13,1350:8 301:3

retirement 40:1741:13,14

returned 294:3295:1

reveal 302:15

[relation - reveal] Page 38


revealing 302:18,24reverse 303:21review 67:7 79:21

80:9 82:12,23 83:3123:6 133:5 140:5141:11 209:23

reviewed 63:21,2481:15,25 123:6209:23,24 230:9,14235:5

reviewing 81:2284:12 227:13

rhone 156:23,25157:8,19 159:1264:8 329:24345:25

ricci 5:21rico 45:12 307:11

308:16rid 281:22 282:13ridiculous 165:14right 10:22 11:17

13:15 16:3 18:2441:1 65:23 68:1671:17 73:11 79:887:2 91:8 92:1793:25 94:5,5 100:6100:7 104:10 111:5111:14 112:4,8116:23 124:22135:15,17,20136:18 137:9138:21 145:3147:13 150:2,3156:20 159:24161:4 167:20169:11 173:12,18173:20,22,23 174:6181:5,7 182:8,12189:19 190:25193:13,18 195:8201:22 204:3,21205:2 206:14214:21 216:6 221:1224:11 232:17,19

234:4,22 236:7237:24 245:10246:7 252:18 253:2255:18 261:12263:5 264:2 265:6267:6,9,12,13 269:1269:5 284:17 285:1285:25 292:1,10293:4 296:1 297:9301:6 303:21304:11,20 325:2327:1,24 328:2,4330:2,18,23 333:14340:6 341:18342:15,21 343:11344:12,16 345:1

ring 236:9risk 20:9,9,10,10

121:3 304:6,6 324:2324:9

riverfront 6:2rivers 40:24 41:6road 6:5robert 1:18 8:12

10:11 64:2 133:7robinson 39:3rochester 54:13role 41:2 56:3 79:9

79:12 83:23 261:18rolls 41:1room 11:14 12:24

121:17 298:12340:10

roth 5:2 8:22 9:25rpr 350:23rubber 19:6,10,11rude 12:16rule 9:14rules 2:5 10:23

202:1

s

s 3:11 4:1 5:1 180:23180:24 181:1,10192:11 242:4

317:13safe 25:12 105:24,25

106:16,24 107:5108:14,20 109:14109:25 110:3,21260:19,24 261:6,21328:6

safety 19:24 20:5,720:13,14,24 21:1,321:15 22:13,14,1522:18,22,25,2524:25 25:22 26:4,1827:12,15 28:4,6,728:24 29:1 31:15,1634:19,25 35:2,736:5,7,9 37:17,2137:22,25 38:3,17,2338:24 39:5,11,19,2140:4,18 41:18,19,2542:4,19,21 45:20,2146:1,19,21 47:6,1047:14 48:6,10,19,2248:23 49:1,10,1850:1,3,10,19,1951:5 55:12,17 56:2356:25 57:1,3,1658:6,22,24 59:465:8 80:5,6,8,1891:12,14,16,20 93:393:17 94:8 100:10104:3,7,8,14,16,17104:23,23 105:12105:21 109:7112:25 113:7,11114:13 115:7,10,15115:16 116:13122:7 124:21 125:4125:7 152:23154:20,22 156:7,12156:17 160:19,22160:23 161:13,18162:2 167:24,25168:4 172:15,23179:25 194:4 199:8201:6 207:4 214:5

224:13 227:2229:13 234:5236:13 240:5252:10 255:8260:11,14 261:19263:6 272:14286:14 291:6 297:2304:2,4,9,15 305:1305:4,13 306:1,7,13306:15 307:10,21308:9,18,24 309:6310:4,8,10,20,21311:2,5,6,8,9,10,11311:11,17 312:7,8312:11,16,20 313:3313:9,16,18,21,24313:25 314:1,7,19314:19 315:1,2,2,3315:8,10 316:15,18316:22,24,25 317:8318:4,18,23 326:8331:18 332:1339:13 341:16342:9,25 343:2,4,8347:11,22,24 348:3348:12,16

sale 110:19sales 57:15 124:13

125:1,13,15 126:19136:1 152:25181:20 279:1 285:7286:11 288:13306:25 338:14

salesforce 125:1salesman 19:3,5salespeople 124:20

125:3,6 126:19salesperson 124:22san 45:11sandvik 181:10satisfaction 330:10saw 64:12 69:24

71:10,12,14,18,2394:15 146:7 153:25154:5,6,25 155:11

[revealing - saw] Page 39


164:3 173:21 174:9179:17 200:11204:14 205:6 216:8234:1 325:24337:10

sawing 189:2 336:17saying 12:14 27:19

66:2 78:15 80:2287:18 106:8,13,21106:25 114:15137:16 146:9 154:8176:13 180:21185:18 198:8,23249:10,20 250:1,6250:18 258:24259:8,12,15 271:10271:13,13 280:14280:17,24 284:17328:6

says 89:7 132:25135:14,18 136:6139:5 142:19 145:5145:6 150:4,12151:16 153:11156:6 157:2,7169:12,24 170:24172:23 173:8,19181:3 182:4,6186:22 187:6,7192:10 193:14195:23 199:5202:13,16 203:6207:21 209:4 213:8222:19 233:17234:11,16 235:5237:7 242:1,21243:5 256:19257:19 258:21,22259:2 264:9,12,19273:11,12 285:11286:13 287:21288:8,11,20 289:13289:23 291:21,22292:1,9,11 293:4,16294:2 295:8,18

297:10 301:10307:21 308:20311:23 314:16315:7 331:17333:17 336:3,6338:14 346:2,10,14

scared 305:23school 54:2 191:1,5

191:13 192:5195:17 205:3,5213:10,13 215:6,12215:16 216:12238:22 239:3 244:5244:17,25 250:15250:17 252:7,20253:8,22 256:22258:17 260:6265:12,17,21 266:1271:16 272:12273:19 274:19276:5,8 277:3332:10 334:1,13,18

schools 260:6science 7:4 17:23

190:19 195:6 197:6245:13,19,24246:18 266:5,8268:24 303:6,10,12347:21

scientific 1:5,6 3:163:19 5:8 6:16 8:9,2510:3 14:25 15:4,1215:23,25,25 16:1316:19 18:6,20 24:1429:14,18 38:7,9,1645:1,2 50:3,4,1051:6,21 52:1,11,1252:17,20 53:3,5,855:7,9,16,21,2158:2,7,14,24 59:560:3 62:2,24 64:664:10 65:16 66:1867:6 69:4,16,1770:9 73:14,16,2474:10 76:3 77:19

78:5,18 79:11,13,1980:13 82:16,2183:25 84:8,21 85:685:23 88:5 89:2592:2 98:8,14 100:17101:15 102:12,23103:4 104:3,4,17107:17 108:6,9110:19 111:9,16112:18 113:6,11118:8 120:16,24124:20 127:3,8,14127:16,25 129:17129:25 137:2139:17 140:6 141:2141:12 142:16143:18 144:6,25145:8,19 146:9,12147:5,11,22,23148:12,25 151:4,22153:12 154:21156:18 161:1162:24 163:5,15,18164:19,20,21 166:3168:20 169:2 171:6171:24 175:15,21178:15 180:22181:16 182:25187:10 188:20189:4 190:18193:10,24 196:25197:4 199:9 200:3202:7,17 211:3212:20 215:5221:11 222:21223:10 224:2,14,25225:9,21 227:20228:22 229:2,14231:7 232:12235:25 237:16238:1 240:12 242:3244:18 246:23248:4 252:5 259:17260:5,18,23 261:2266:1 272:10

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scientific's 65:2466:12 67:11 100:19124:12 145:22170:13

scientist 18:9,13,17146:23

scientists 228:4scott 39:3,4,5,8,11screw 281:21screwing 282:12script 193:15 315:13se 260:19seamans 5:13search 116:13

117:18second 10:8 11:12

12:18 40:17 128:25137:9 142:19 143:2147:1 159:25174:10 182:7184:15 186:22264:9 275:17302:11 307:19309:23 314:16315:11 329:23331:6 337:1 346:3346:10

[saw - second] Page 40


secret 301:11,19302:15

section 169:19172:14 173:2 295:4314:1

sections 292:24security 301:11,16

301:20,23 302:13see 20:8 28:12 71:25

94:12 124:24137:25 139:2,4142:20 143:2146:12 150:4153:21 159:3169:16,19 174:6181:2 186:21,25195:25 204:6 216:5216:18,22 224:14255:9 257:21261:23 273:5,12291:24,24 292:5,20298:7 307:22308:16 310:12,13311:18 321:8334:14 338:10,20343:19 347:7

seeing 95:18 103:24234:22 238:7 257:9285:19

seek 141:10seeking 241:5

259:22seeks 60:8seen 64:13,15 70:24

72:3 101:25 102:9102:21 103:2 137:4145:18 152:20,24153:15 158:23,25159:8,9,17,19174:11 179:12194:21 200:8201:21 223:6227:19 233:21243:14 253:13257:4 265:22

272:22 273:15279:6 286:5 289:2298:2

self 143:17 311:23312:4

sell 19:8 54:5 184:3186:23 226:12249:25 256:7258:18 280:24324:16 338:25339:23

selling 86:23 226:10236:19 246:22279:15 324:9338:19 339:6

send 31:11 163:21191:21 255:4257:16 273:6

sender 331:18sending 219:11

256:20 271:3,9272:19

senior 32:3sense 245:1sent 27:10 71:19

80:10 81:15,2382:23 83:4 163:22212:7 218:1 219:1244:20 276:11

sentence 59:21136:19 183:10210:12,13,16 212:6212:8 219:14 256:3264:21 331:6

separate 216:4295:14

september 134:10135:5,19

series 191:10 221:22serve 302:5served 9:7service 59:3services 8:3set 122:10 126:1,2

228:3 300:16

seven 40:8 45:12seventh 190:18

191:12 195:5246:17 266:5,7268:15,24 293:17

shaking 336:19shape 234:15,20share 219:22shazia 6:13shebang 331:24sheet 242:19sheets 183:7,16

235:17 236:5sheriff 72:10,16,18

73:8 74:5,9,19,2475:8,25 76:10

sheriffs 132:15,21shield 235:14ship 164:21shipbuilding 122:12shipped 163:5shipping 160:6ships 89:23 90:5shockingly 42:16shohl 6:17shooter 301:25

302:3short 221:21 242:13

253:11 279:9298:19 333:16

shorthand 350:10shot 278:25show 83:20,21,22

87:13 129:9 214:19225:20 300:18328:19 330:13332:7,9 333:10334:9 337:22

showed 72:10 230:9267:11 294:18

showers 26:16showing 330:11,19shown 67:25 68:23

69:15,17 70:5 137:7149:21 159:21

169:6 213:23328:16 330:15,22

shows 292:21sic 130:25sick 122:17side 199:17 211:2sided 134:10 148:16

287:8 291:20,21338:10

sign 154:19 343:25signal 46:8 49:22signature 136:5

157:7 206:19,22,25207:6,10 209:4222:18 252:13269:4 272:15 273:7285:16,17

signed 156:22,25157:10,19 252:9264:8 266:4 268:14268:24 269:3 285:5331:17 345:25

significant 183:14307:21

silicates 137:11silly 183:12similar 195:17simple 199:14 215:7

218:11,13 334:16sincerely 157:4,6single 165:7 236:12singley 6:17sir 10:12 14:3 27:3

36:21 39:17 41:168:9 75:18 77:13121:21 133:4 134:7134:19 135:2139:11 148:9 154:4165:23 167:16168:23 172:21176:18 179:10180:12 181:2184:11 189:16190:5,17 191:11203:2 206:11,15

[secret - sir] Page 41


216:19 221:3254:10 265:7266:10 296:8298:10 299:15301:12 313:5315:19 319:19324:12 326:18334:2 340:18343:14

sit 34:1 63:6,1678:14 85:12 86:4,1490:3 101:14 111:2,6111:14 151:20159:13,14 230:7240:21,25 241:15246:5 256:16 257:8257:11 301:25329:9 331:21

site 38:13sitting 11:17 13:15

255:18situation 254:25situations 258:11six 45:12 54:20

235:9,23 236:1,8244:2,15 299:1349:5

size 23:11 35:25150:16 178:12

skeleton 54:1sleeving 180:25

182:21slightest 253:20,25small 40:21 170:3

235:11 306:8smaller 292:1smith 2:6 6:22 8:17

350:6,22smoke 122:20sneeze 30:14,17snelbaker 254:13,24

255:19society 307:24 308:5

309:12 316:15317:24

sodium 137:12sold 19:13 49:23

57:12 87:8 88:13105:23 106:15108:9,19 109:24111:8 124:13127:10,15 128:9,22129:16 146:10147:23 150:23151:4 161:1,24168:11 178:15193:2,5,11 196:25197:4 202:3,8,10,17236:12 246:2 257:6260:5 262:11294:18,25 297:10297:17 307:3 319:9339:10 346:20

somebody 26:3 32:340:19,21 73:16,1873:21 74:20 76:2278:2 93:16 98:899:2,6,11 114:25116:6 127:7 128:18157:19 179:14238:23 253:7 264:7265:25 273:21275:3 312:22316:18 339:24340:15

somewhat 341:12soon 255:12 306:20sorry 23:25 29:9

41:24 47:24 53:1581:8 84:16 93:19106:12 113:19115:5 116:20 122:1124:24 135:1,6154:4 169:22175:15 194:2 205:2238:25 244:6 259:8264:6 277:8 319:19322:5 324:20343:14 347:18

sort 42:14 92:15151:17

sorts 318:13sought 43:12sounds 111:20 348:8source 96:2 97:24

265:25 268:21289:17 338:18

sources 271:4south 7:2speak 15:3 49:24

66:22 78:3,17107:24 125:25175:3 179:15,19,22201:17 275:11,16341:25

speaking 149:11200:22 217:9 235:5

speaks 137:14150:21 158:15160:11 168:3 170:6172:18 173:16182:24 187:17190:21 192:1258:21 271:8,21344:18 345:3 346:7

specialist 60:24specialized 26:20specific 31:14,18

43:7 82:20 84:2091:9 96:25 97:4,798:5 99:1,25 100:2100:18 101:17102:16 103:14,17103:21,24 107:4,9110:15 117:15119:14 121:8,14122:11 124:18128:2 151:9 177:6186:13 218:4 219:6220:14 223:1,3239:8 255:21260:22 261:5282:25 304:13344:25

specifically 30:534:11 63:20 73:1284:4 85:7 90:2291:22 100:20 101:2101:4,12 108:18,23109:19,21 113:21116:5,10 119:1120:4 125:6 127:8128:6 133:10142:17 146:10155:8 169:9 171:15178:1 180:3 193:25197:12 201:15213:22 225:3,15226:8 227:13,24229:4 273:22274:15 275:15,19319:3 320:24341:24 345:17,19

specifics 302:18speculate 89:4

136:11 145:14151:14 162:10175:7 176:4,14197:17 211:24218:6,8 228:13237:2 246:14 268:6269:14 270:13,16270:22 282:22283:2

speculating 268:20283:3

speculation 15:1717:17 19:16 49:561:13 93:12 153:23164:9 178:1,4184:25 189:9211:21 217:3 218:4219:5,19 229:6241:6 246:12 248:6265:16 267:19270:16,17,19 296:6

speeches 307:21308:24

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spell 15:6spend 23:9 35:23

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125:13 176:10179:25 187:24197:10 277:22

spoken 15:9 16:1216:15,21 179:14197:14 341:6

square 5:3ss 350:2st 35:17 318:16stack 338:1staff 51:23 52:2

124:13 125:13,15152:25

stagliano 7:1stand 213:1 235:12standard 27:8 28:11

107:2,4,10 108:13153:11 158:6,10159:16 160:4,4,20162:5 167:22176:17 177:8200:17,18 224:9255:8,9 257:17,21258:2,7,10,12 259:9259:14,16 260:7,9260:16,17,23 261:5262:21 264:21271:14 293:1 327:9328:8 331:3,8,8,13336:9,14,15 344:16344:21,24 346:3,12

standards 27:6 28:928:19,20,21,2332:13,14,16,19 33:333:4,4,6,7,12,14,1633:17,18,21 79:14104:22 108:17

109:4 174:21 175:2175:14,20 176:10176:10 177:1 180:5188:10,15 189:7224:2,16 225:2,10225:22 304:23306:23 323:14337:15 341:21342:10 345:21

standing 337:3stands 295:9start 18:19 46:6

244:11 248:24269:25 326:19332:24

started 14:11 22:239:2 51:21 52:4,1153:5 54:19 55:2058:13 79:9,12 92:394:17 117:11260:13 306:24331:24

starting 322:9starts 139:1 143:3

143:10 147:2 160:2210:13 247:18

state 2:7 47:9,18,2262:25 94:3 149:9158:8 174:15190:24 201:19208:8 266:3 285:25308:6 310:14 311:5312:5 331:5 346:1350:1,7

stated 34:5 88:790:1 118:18 170:13171:15 198:14252:17 259:9 343:3

statement 9:4 107:6184:1,14

statements 210:8states 45:10,11

136:15 146:6 191:5235:7 296:19301:10 302:12

307:10 308:16,25309:3 313:11314:17 317:20

stating 13:25stationed 233:14status 221:25stay 22:7 41:5 85:16

310:15,18stayed 37:17 39:23steps 96:2 100:24

101:1,4 105:22106:8,14 224:12,22224:24 225:7,20261:3

stetson 5:7stick 291:10sticker 134:17

292:11,20stop 10:24 12:15

17:10 43:24 132:4155:20 246:21249:17 307:13

stopped 44:3,13206:9 307:17342:25 343:2,5346:22

storage 160:6stored 45:16,18

163:4story 315:16straight 301:24

302:3 343:19straightforward

205:10 216:25218:18 266:21,25

street 5:4,10,14 6:147:2 156:9 252:8

stricken 327:7strike 44:23 69:16

302:4 322:24strong 253:16students 190:19

191:12 195:6 197:6198:4 199:11244:17 246:18

266:5,8 268:15,25274:2,3,8 293:18

studied 144:22studies 209:25study 27:5 28:3 54:1

222:7 226:3,7 251:8stuff 105:4 138:21

281:1stupid 283:12subject 55:8 82:22

83:2,3 96:25 140:7180:25 213:3221:14 222:16229:4 232:18242:11,20 268:18278:16 287:21

subjected 283:14subjects 27:5 29:20subordinates

113:16subpart 200:17subpoena 9:5,9

132:16,24 159:8subpoenas 9:6subscription 104:12subscriptions 104:4subsections 292:23

292:25subsequent 76:2,5

78:25subsidiary 6:20substance 146:14substances 103:3substitute 184:7,8

187:17 284:25substitutes 284:23substituting 288:18successor 105:6sued 280:22 281:7

281:24suggest 102:22

103:3suggests 102:10suit 78:20

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suitable 184:6279:20

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superior 1:1,8superiors 82:16

83:2 84:11 179:16179:22

supplied 110:16307:15

supplier 110:16127:25 151:22288:21,25

suppliers 109:12,22274:10 279:21289:21

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21:24 22:11 23:2,623:14 25:11,1927:17,19,20,2229:21 30:11 37:1241:7,10 43:25 46:2547:1 49:21 56:562:23 71:21 79:1385:8,11 92:7,1393:23 94:11 95:22104:6,15 105:2,2,8105:9 108:3,20114:22 115:18,25118:4,9,11,14119:16 121:9 126:7128:8 129:6 139:2143:23 148:20154:11 155:22157:16 159:23171:19 188:23189:2 193:20 233:4253:15,18 261:1262:5 263:6 293:2293:13 305:25320:2,3,6 330:6,10339:5 347:25

suspect 289:19swear 8:18sworn 9:2 181:13system 122:10

t

t 3:11 4:1 5:6 15:8181:1 221:12

table 11:14 69:1,269:13 262:8,9,11274:16,16

tables 11:16 55:2tails 268:8take 22:18 23:4 30:4

30:7,16,20,23 35:535:9 40:12,16 42:1350:23 79:17 96:297:25 105:8,22112:7,11,12 125:9125:11 126:9,23132:4 133:14148:14 164:3165:11 169:10181:23 189:19,19216:15 220:1224:22,24 232:2234:6 248:23 279:9279:10 287:25288:5 298:19301:14,22,25311:20 316:16340:13

taken 2:4,7 10:1322:24 62:13 74:21100:8 101:1,1,4102:23 113:22131:10 189:23225:7 248:16 261:3298:23 350:9,11

takes 241:2talk 37:6 64:25

69:23,25 74:1678:21,23 94:2095:13 125:16 142:1169:23 178:8 204:3

251:3,8 310:6314:14 319:8341:20

talked 65:21 68:1068:11,13 69:2372:19 73:21 74:1574:25 79:3 96:24107:12,13,13,14141:13,23 142:14144:21 147:9 161:9166:13 167:15204:1,8 229:22238:13,16 239:21239:25 240:3,14277:5 286:13 304:8318:2 341:3

talking 12:12 58:763:5 76:21 90:2094:17 120:1 123:3132:11 145:21161:13,17 162:18177:24 201:20202:2 203:15204:23 209:5,7214:23,25 218:15249:6 259:10273:22 274:15,16280:12 287:25290:4 302:16303:24 312:3317:11 318:11,24319:4 321:3 323:13324:25 326:19,23

talks 137:9 142:22178:7 183:9,10247:1 288:12289:19 290:12333:16

tape 11:18 62:9,1162:16 63:6 112:10131:7,13 189:21190:1 235:16 236:4248:12,14,19295:20 296:15299:1 349:5

tapes 132:2tar 24:22 25:5 35:19

36:25task 43:7taught 310:8teach 48:3 304:23

304:23 307:4 310:3311:5,6,8 314:24

teacher 253:4268:12,18 271:17271:17 274:2,3

teaching 55:14tear 119:19technically 327:23technician 308:2technicians 107:15

107:16,19technologies 6:20technologist 308:2technologists 307:25

308:6 309:13 318:8telephone 14:17

130:14 213:16221:24 240:4254:23 281:20326:3

telex 94:7tell 11:6,6,7,8 12:1,3

14:20,20 17:21 47:175:24 77:19 83:2092:19 122:4 126:5132:8 137:25 146:5162:3 170:19171:20 181:19210:21 211:23220:22 227:15236:21 258:17270:24 311:2 314:4321:12 327:10338:3 342:13,17348:13

telling 99:11 133:15214:16,19 244:7,12264:1 336:25

[suitable - telling] Page 44


tells 327:9ten 309:21tenure 91:14,21

92:19 100:10101:15 102:12,22347:3

term 1:19 100:12102:18 113:24139:19 155:17,21266:25 346:13

terminology 155:12155:13 213:4214:13 215:1,20275:25 289:7291:11

terms 9:4 113:6162:21 229:22230:22

test 20:16,20 47:548:6 91:16

tested 33:3,5testified 9:2 31:19

155:8 166:20179:12 198:11229:21 236:11270:11,14 304:19324:23

testify 68:13 69:24102:16 121:15155:15 164:14165:17 218:6 219:7239:9 270:21

testifying 66:10testimony 10:18

81:19 98:16 101:21106:19 107:3,25109:5 111:21113:25 118:23,25123:17 139:24155:7 159:5 162:8166:19 203:15228:11 231:13,17265:3 268:5 269:12277:15 281:13289:8 350:16

testing 35:6 47:2191:13,19 100:7111:10 257:13261:23 263:7

tests 20:14 91:1492:18 301:14

thank 79:7 80:790:5 124:8 167:17168:24 180:14189:17 201:5207:19 232:15251:19 283:18284:5 299:22 300:7300:11 314:9 336:6336:7 338:8 348:24349:3

thanks 193:17thermo 1:5 8:9

14:25 15:13,14,1915:25 17:11,15 79:3

thick 69:11thing 29:9 129:12

182:5 214:21303:17 310:3319:22 325:23

things 9:11 12:721:10 26:13 41:2445:14 61:4 93:2297:9,16 126:14141:18,22 172:8214:23,24 238:20270:1,9 303:20327:23 341:16

think 15:8 19:129:21 31:17 34:439:24 47:7 58:1074:1 75:13,13 77:1983:8,10,14 85:2,2186:22 88:12 90:694:17 98:3 99:23104:6 108:11 109:7112:9 113:24 132:2137:23 140:3143:24 147:9154:24 156:9 161:9

164:7,18 176:2193:8 197:14 198:2200:13 208:11215:24 216:2225:17 237:21242:5 249:12,20,20262:5,10 268:14274:4 275:25279:14 280:18285:5 287:20297:23 298:11301:24 302:23304:18,24 314:14328:5 334:6 340:16341:11 342:3,24345:25

thinking 144:16210:18 214:22280:15

third 10:10 12:5,2441:12 77:4 216:24

thought 36:20 93:1798:12 111:25 145:4196:17 203:8 211:6226:10 244:10245:21 259:1276:17 304:5 306:6306:8 322:18

thoughts 192:12235:7

thousands 82:3,5,782:8 85:10 113:4,5236:17,18

threat 34:18 37:5,637:6

three 8:21 10:2 36:340:24 41:5 42:1072:3 76:18 77:1131:13 133:6 146:4181:8 189:21190:16 222:6232:20 251:6,7253:11 264:5 265:7279:21 288:16293:7,15 298:14

299:24 328:24329:8 335:10,12342:3 343:18

thumb 150:15tiles 122:15time 8:4,15 10:23

25:23 27:17 41:1244:4,14 46:4 47:950:9 54:4 61:1962:17 64:13,14 66:567:14,16 71:2278:11 79:4 80:4,783:9,17 87:8 102:1102:9,22 103:2104:7,17 105:12114:13 115:7117:11 131:8,14137:1 141:1 143:16144:3 148:14153:21,25 154:20162:25 169:10175:2,14,21 179:3184:20 185:19186:10 189:18,21190:2 202:17205:19 209:10220:16 224:12,18225:24 226:9227:20 228:1231:25 243:23248:15,20,23256:24 274:25278:21 279:10280:14 294:22297:22 298:2,22299:2 304:14,18313:1 314:5 321:23323:17,20 329:23338:22 349:6

times 58:20 98:24116:21 126:9,13,18168:8 177:11 208:8217:5 227:9 259:24342:4

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today's 8:3 62:1667:3 131:8,13189:21 190:1212:11 248:19299:1 349:5

told 33:5 73:16 74:183:14 94:16 99:19100:5 108:11,15139:17 144:25145:1,3,19 152:24154:24 155:16162:9 185:12194:15 213:5214:15 217:21220:23 242:5 267:9267:14 268:1 269:2269:6 271:5,23289:3,7 297:6301:17 314:9315:17 323:6 342:5

toledo 6:16tolerance 139:6tom 134:24 135:1,5

135:7 145:20284:20 285:5,6,11

286:9,11tomato 19:9tomorrow 179:5,7tongs 150:14tongue 41:1tons 226:16 326:2tool 169:25 214:3

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172:13,15 173:4212:10 221:3291:21 292:8301:11,19 302:11302:15 309:22

topic 82:15,18 84:12topics 28:23,24

105:12tore 119:7totally 99:17touch 37:17 58:2

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